#
# Identification:
#
# * Title: "Zodiac"
# * Pages: f70v2,f70v1,f71r,f71v,f72r1,f72r2,f72r3,f72v3,f72v2,f72v1,f73r,f73v
# * Folios: f70,f71,f72,f73
# * Panels: f70v3,f70v2,f70v1,f71r,f71v,f72r1,f72r2,f72r3,f72v3,f72v2,f72v1,f73r,f73v
# * Bifolios: bJ1,bK1,bL1
# * Quires: J,K,L (Rene) = X,XI,XII (Beinecke)
#
# D'Imperio figure 10, page 88 (centers).
#
# Attributes:
#
# * Languages: ? (Currier)
# * Hands: ? (Currier)
# * Subsets: Z (Rene), zod (Stolfi)
# * Subject: zodiac
#
# Description:
#
# This section comprises 12 pages, the first one spanning two panels
# (f70v3 and f70v2). Each page contains only a circular diagram,
# defined by two or three concentric rings of text. The innermost
# ring is a couple of centimeters in diameter; the outermost one
# spans most of the page's width, sometimes extending a bit
# into the adjacent pages.
#
# Each text ring is bounded by a pair of faint mechanically-drawn
# circles. As in other circular diagrams, the circles seem to be
# traced with a template rather than with a compass; they are
# not quite round, and sometimes are off-center by a millimeter or more.
#
# All text rings read in the clockwise direction. Some of them are
# interrupted by a "notched square" marker, usually betwen 09:00 and
# 12:00. Some other rings have an extra-wide interword gap, and/or a
# short radial line (spanning the two bounding circles), in that
# same quadrant. Still others have no obvious interruption or
# distinguished gap.
#
# Inside the innermost ring of text there is always a simple icon
# (one or two animals, one or two persons, a balance scale),
# sometimes a star of two, and a word in Roman script (sometimes
# abbreviated).
#
# Between every two consecutive text rings there is a band of
# figures ("nymphs"). On some pages there is also a group of 4-5
# "overflow" nymphs just above of the diagram, outside the outermost
# ring. All nymphs have their torso more or less aligned with the
# radius, so that their "up" direction is away from the center.
# Except for one set on the first diagram (f70v2), who have their
# legs bent horizontally, they are all standing up.
#
# Some nymphs are standing inside "barrels" or "tubs", horizontal or
# verical, that usually cover their legs up to the waist. As a rule,
# the remaining nymphs are standing with their feet covered by the
# text ring just below (i.e. inward) of them. However some nymphs
# have one foot raised above the text ring, as for climbing or
# stomping, and others are drawn with both feet visible . A few
# nymphs are standing on top of oblong objects, resembling
# logs or rolled carpets.
#
# Most of the nymphs are in 3/4 view, halfway between frontal and
# facing clockwise. Some however are in frontal view, and some are
# in 3/4 view counterclockwise. Most of them are naked, with hair of
# various lengths, colors, and types. Some wear hats (or hat-like
# hairdos), and a few bear crowns.
#
# Most nymphs are obviously female, with full breasts and hips. The
# nipples of most naked nymphs (and of some dressed ones?) are
# marked as red dots. Some nymphs have indeterminate sex; none has
# obviously male genitals. (However, some of the dressed nymphs are
# likely to be male, judging from the dress style.)
#
# Most of the nymphs are holding or (pointing at) a star, about a
# foot across in proportion, with 6--9 triangular rays. Sometimes
# the star has a wire-like "tail", sinuous or straight, usually
# attached to one of the lower rays; the tail may be used by the
# nymph as a handle, or may be just hanging loose. Many of the stars
# are colored and/or have a colored spot at the center. The star is
# always in front of the nymph (which usually means clockwise of
# it), typically at the level of her head or higher.
#
# There are a couple of nymphs without stars, but no stars without
# nymphs. Almost every nymph (with one or two exceptions) has a
# Voynichese label next to it, also reading clockwise. In the few
# cases where there is more space than needed for the label --- in
# particular, next to the "overflow" nymphs --- the extra space is
# usually after (clockwise of) the label. Conversely, when the label
# runs over the adjacent figures, it usually runs into the following
# one.
#
# Typically, the right arm of the nymph is bent behind her, with the
# hand resting on her back, buttock, hip, waist, thigh, belly, or
# lower ribs. However, several nymphs have the right arm stretched
# back and down at some angle A few are holding the star with both
# hands. Nymphs that are standing on barrels often have the right
# hand tucked inside it. (For those few nymphs that face
# counterclockwise, the roles of left and right are reversed.)
#
# There is no obvious alignment or association between the
# words in the text rings and the adjacent nymphs.
#
# The numbers of nymphs, stars, and labels in each diagram are
# given below, first for the central figure (C), then for each band,
# (1-3, innner to outer) and then the totals for the whole diagram (T).
# The "overflow" nymphs are shown as band 3.
#
# page f70v2 f70v1 f71r f71v f72r1 f72r2 f72r3 f72v3 f72v2 f72v1 f73r f73v
# name Piscs Arie1 Arie2 Taur1 Taur2 Gemin Cancr Leo Virgo Libra Scorp Sagit
# ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
# C stars 2 - - - - - - - 1 - 1 -
#
# 1 stars 10 5 5 5 5 9 7 12 11(a) 10 10 10
# 1 nymphs 10 5 5 5 5 9 7 12 12 10 10 10
#
# 2 stars 19 10 10 10 10 16 11 18 18 20 16 15(b)
# 2 nymphs 19 10 10 10 10 16 11 18 18 20 16 16
#
# 3 stars - - - - - 5 12 - - - 4 4
# 3 nymphs - - - - - 5 12 - - - 4 4
# ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
# T stars 31 15 15 15 15 30 30 30 30 30 31 29
# T nymphs 29 15 15 15 15 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
#
# ----------------------------------------
# (a) one star seems to have been erased.
# (b) one star reduced to a dot.
#
# (Some of the star counts could not be confirmed because of poor copy quality.)
#
# Folio 74 (the other half of the bifolio bL1 = f73+f74) is missing in the VMS.
#
# Comments:
#
# LAYOUT
#
# Although all the pages share the basic layout described above,
# which gives a strong sense unity to this section, there is
# considerable variation in the details from one diagram to the
# next.
#
# Robert Firth [???] observed that through the whole zodiac we see
# the artist struggling to find the best layout for his "30-nymph
# diagram".
#
# Stolfi thinks that the variations in the layout make more sense
# if one assumes that the folios were not drawn in their "natural"
# order. In particular, he thinks that the original plan was to
# have 15 (5+10) nymphs per diagram, as in f70v1 through f72r1;
# eventually the author switched to 30-nymph layouts, of which
# pisces was the first. Stolfi thinks that the variations in
# drawing style and other details confirm this theory; see below.
#
# STYLE
#
# The small details of the layout, symbology, and decoration (such
# as the number of nymphs per band, the presence of "tubs",
# decorative patterns, dresses and hats) show significant
# variations from page to page. The same can be said of the
# artist's style and skill, especially with regards to the nymphs'
# anatomy and proportions.
#
# However, there doesn't seem to be a consistent improvement as
# one goes from f70v2 to f73v. For one thing, the nymphs on the
# Aries 2 page (f71r) look more "primitive" and clumsy than those
# of Pisces (f70v2) or even Aries 1 (f70v1). It is also curious
# that the women are clothed only on the Aries and Taurus pages
# (f70v1-f71r). Also, on those pages their legs are still hidden
# inside the "barrels"; but they get progressively more naked and
# exposed on subsequent pages. Yet the Pisces page (f70v2) goes
# against these trends.
#
# To explain these "evolutionary anomalies", Stolfi [11 Aug 1998]
# conjectured that Pisces (f70v2) and Aries 1 (f70v1) were
# (re)drawn after Aries 2 (f71r) but before Gemini (f72r2).
#
# Stolfi conjectures, moreover, that the panels f70v3 through f70v1
# were originally the back cover of the book, and were pressed into
# service after the folio containing the original version of the
# Pisces and Aries 1 diagrams was discarded (perhaps for being
# too ugly).
#
# Stolfi [11 Aug 1998] thinks that the nymphs in the Biological section
# are generally better drawn than those in the Zodiac, and therefore
# the two sections were probably written in that order.
#
# Stolfi also thinks that the quality of the nymph drawings
# in f71r (Aries 1) is *much* worse than that of the sheep (goat?)
# at the center of the diagram. So perhaps the central symbols
# were drawn last of all?
#
# Finally, stolfi thinks that the poor quality of the drawings on
# Aries 1 is somewhat inconsistent with the neat handwriting on
# the page. So perhaps the writing was done by a different person?
#
#
# MEANING
#
# The central symbols represent, without doubt, the signs of the
# Zodiac. This interpretation is reinforced by the month names
# written next to them (see below), although these may be guesses
# by a later owner of the MS.
#
# The fact that (almost) all diagrams have 30 stars and 30 nymphs is
# puzzling, as it matches neither the Western solar calendar (where
# the months roughly alternate between 30 and 31 days), nor the
# Arab, Hebrew, or Chinese lunar calendar (where the months roughly
# alternate between 30 and 29 days).
#
# Rene Zandbergen [???]
#
Astrological systems giving one sign for each degree were described
by Peter of Abano (14C) in his Astrolabium Planum and in the so-called
'Heidelberger Schicksalsbuch' a much later translation and explanation of
P. d'Abano's work. I am still pursuing these documents, but first
indications are that the short labels near the stars in our zodiac
do not match well with the names used in these two documents. These
are of a typical descriptive nature 'a man with red hair carrying a sword'
and each one occurs several times (more so than we see in the Voynich
labels).
Main conclusion: whereas the VMs again seems original, it is not
entirely original and similar astrological systems do exist.
# and others have offered a plausible
# explanation: the nymphs/stars indicate degrees, rather than
# days. Indeed the signs of the Zodiac are defined by dividing the
# Ecliptic into 12 equal arcs of 30 degrees each [???Check].
# Jacques Guy [21 Feb 1997] and Denis Mardle [23 Feb 97] hinted in that direction
# too.
#
# The same method was used by the Chinese in their "agricultural"
# (solar) calendar, where the Ecliptic was divided into 24 arcs of
# 15 degrees each.
#
# In either case, the Roman words would be only the
# "best matches" of the 12 months to the 12 signs.
#
# [??? Jubilee calendar]
#
# Rene Zandbergen [18 Jan 1999] offers this possible analogy for the
# contents of the labels and/or text, taken from a 15th century
# astrological treatise [1]:
#
# Scorpius.
# 1st deg.: Apparet vir cuspidem tenens in manu sua.
# Fur erit et nequam
# 2nd: Vir sedens in elephante
# Homo fortis erit et stabilis
# 3rd: Homo stans ociosus
# Homo malus erit et ociosus
# 4th: Cithara una(?) leticiam signans
# Homo iocundus erit
#
# etc. etc. for all 12 * 30 degrees. The `image' [first line]
# derives from the star or constellation that rises (e.g.
# cithara from Lyra) and the `property' [second line] is the
# astrologer's interpretation. So perhaps the label words mean:
# `fur', `fortis', `ociosus', `iocundus'. However, here again
# the repetition found in Johann Engel's list is much higher
# than what's observed in the label words.
#
# Rene also reminds us that the origins of the above list can be
# traced back via Persia to Babylonia, so the language is not
# necessarily Latin.
#
# If the pages are rearranges as proposed by Stolfi (see above),
# on the first pages the nymphs are at first fully clothed,
# without breasts, and half-hidden inside their "tubs"; then they
# get progressively more undressed and exposed as we move along
# the section.
#
# While there may be a symbolic motivation for this "cosmic
# strip-tease", Stolfi thinks that it could also mean that the
# "artist" gradually (a) lost his/her inhibitions, and/or (b)
# learned how to draw the lower parts of the female anatomy,
# and/or (c) became more interested in those parts. These
# possibilities seem to support the theory that the VMS
# illustrator (if not the author) was a child or teenager.
#
# # [??? Paratellonta]
#
# MONTH NAMES
#
# Jim Reeds [12 Dec 95], possibly quoting Toresella, says that the
# month names are in a French late 1400's handwriting, which is
# different from that of the VMS author.
#
# References:
#
# [1] Johannes Angelus, "Astrolabium Planum" (Augsburg, 1488).
# [quoted by [2]?]
#
# [2] Saxl's "Verzeignis", see D'Imperio's references.
#
----------------------------------------------------------------------
stolfi [11 Aug 1998]
To confuse the issue further, some of the Aries women have no breasts;
see, for example, the one at 8:00 in the inner ring of f71r. On the
other hand, on several of the dressed women of f70v1 one can clearly
see not only the breasts but even the nipples! Check the inner
ring at 8:00 and 3:00, and the outer ring at 2:00 and 3:00.
Unde the "Young Master" theory, I propose that the dressed nymphs were
first drawn naked, but the artist then felt guilty and dressed them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[Rene 18 Jan 1999]
> > By the way, I thought one person represent one day in the zodiac
> > calendars. But it is not true, right? (I mean, there are 30
> > women in each zodiac calendars. But some women have the same
> > label.)
They could each represent one degree in the zodiac.
> > What do their labels mean in the zodiac calendars? What do you
> > think kind of property they have? Their name? their birthday?
> > where they live? They have a same kind of star? who and who are
> > relatives by blood and marriage? etc.
>
> I have no satisfactory theory for what the "zodiac" diagrams and the
> numphs are supposed to be. If they indeed represent the zodiac signs,
> why do they all have 30 "stars"? Why are Aries and Taurus split in
> two?
The split in two is odd, but it could be just a space problem. The
writer/illustrator was still very careful when making the early zodiac pages
(as opposed to later on, when everything is cramped together).
> Even the zodiac symbols at the center are a bit suspect; it is
> possible (although, I admit, unlikely) that the central circles were
> originally empty, and the signs were added later, by someone who just
> guessed they were related to the zodiac. Or perhaps the guess was made
> by the VMS author himself, as he copied the diagrams from some other
> book.
All possible. Also, the appearance of a month name is odd. Each figure
could be valid for one sign, or for one month, where the 'largest
overlapping' sign was added.
And, as commented many times, to start with Pisces instead of Aries is
also quite odd. If somebody 'just guessed' that it was a zodiac,
he would have started with Aries.
> If the nymphs are real or imaginary individuals (not just decoration),
> then the labels are likely to be their names; in which case it is not
> that strange to see repetitions.
Star names do have roughly the right number of duplications.
'Rigel' is a well-known bright star but there are other stars named
'Rigel <something>' which may have been abbreviated. Many stars were
called 'the head of xxx' or the 'foot of yyy' for different xxx and
yyy.
Finally, something else that could be indicated by the label is the
star's latitude (distance from the ecliptic), which would be measured
with a resolution of ten arc minutes, which gives a bit less than
1000 possible values (with a non-uniform probablility), so a few
duplications should be expected with 300 samples.
In the end, what is not explained at all is the fact that the first
nine or ten pictures in Aries involve a horizontal tub, the next
whole signs involve a person sitting in a dustbin and later on the
person is standing up. I am particularly intrigued by the fact that:
- the number of points of the stars varies from 6 to 9, with non-uniform
distribution
- the nymph hand which is not holding the star is either on the hip or
pointing back (it's clear from the drawings that this is a deliberate
thing)
- the nymph may be standing on one or two feet and the legs may be
crossing or not. Again, this seems quite deliberate.
- the clothing, crowns and pedestals which have been remarked by
D'Imperio and Brumbaugh.
About 1 out of 6 of the standing nymphs have their hand pointing
behind them, not on the hip. But for nine-pointed stars this fraction
is zero. I checked that the probability of this is 0.02 if this
was just due to chance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[stolfi 20 Jan 1999]
> [Rene:] They could each represent one degree in the zodiac. And
> each degree would again represent a property (reflecting the
> character of the person born while this degree of the zodiac
> rose).
>
> Here's what the label words could mean (taken from Johannes
> Angelus, Astrolabium Planum, Augsburg 1488):
This example is quite encouraging!
> The split in two is odd, but it could be just a space problem.
Possibly.
> And, as commented many times, to start with Pisces instead of
> Aries is also quite odd. If somebody 'just guessed' that it was
> a zodiac, he would have started with Aries.
The Pisces page is peculiar in other ways: decorated bands,
nymphs in horizontal tubes, no dressed nymphs. It also seems to have been
drawn with more care than the rest.
> In the end, what is not explained at all is the fact that the
> first nine or ten pictures in Aries[Pisces?] involve a
> horizontal tub, the next whole signs involve a person sitting in
> a dustbin and later on the person is standing up.
I think that the style of the drawings (particularly the nymph's
anatomy and dress) shows a clear evolution, especially in the first
few diagrams; and the style and presence of the "dustbins" seems to be
part of that trend. Ignoring pisces for the moment, I would say that
f71r and f71v were drawn first, then f70v1 and f72r1, then the rest.
Note how the drawings become firmer and better proportioned, and the
nymph's anatomy becomes more realistic and standardized. At the same
time the dresses and dustbins get simpler and then disappear. Also the
first diagrams have the "notched square" design at 10:00, presumably a
start-of-text maker, which is missing in the rest.
Pisces is rather anomalous in that it has dustbins but no dresses, and
thus does not fit into the sequence above. Moreover it has has nymphs
in horizontal tubes, decorated circles. In fact the drawing "hand"
seems better than all the rest.
Here is a possible explanation for these anomalies. Suppose that when
the zodiac section was being drawn it was still a separate booklet, or
a stack of nested but unbound bifolios. Suppose moreover that there
was originally another bifolio around the Zodiac quire, so that there
were two extra pages between f70v1 and f71r. Call them fXr and fXv.
The theory is that artist began drawing the zodiac diagrams with
Pisces on fXr, Aries on fXv + f71r, Taurus on f71v + f72r1, etc. At
some point he looked again at the Pisces diagram and decided that the
nymphs were too ugly (they must have been uglier than those of f71r!).
So he discarded the fX bifolio, and redrew Pisces and Light Aries on
f70v. That was the last page of the "cosmo" booklet, which he had
completed some time earlier. (That page had been left blank for the
same reason that f116v was left blank, namely that as the back cover
of the book it would tend to get soiled and worn rather quickly.)
When redrawing, he preserved the layout and details of the old
drawing, out of inertia (thus the horizontal tubes and decorated
borders), but of course he drew the nymphs at his current
skill/inhibition level (hence the lack of dresses and passable
anatomy).
(BTW I am using "he" just to protest against the opressive female
exploitation of the dumber sex. But considering the inordinate
attention given to (feminine) dresses and hats on the early Zodiac
pages (e.g. f71r/f71v), I bet all the olives in my pizza that the
artist was a young girl...)
Of course this theory loses some strength if it turns out that the
presence or absence of dustbins is meaningful information (as Rene
proposes) and not an artistic detail.
If tubes and dustbins are meaningful, an obvious guess for their
meaning is visibility. (Didn't Rene suggest this some time ago?) My
brain battery is low now so I cannot think out the geometry involved.
Would some Zodiac stars be (partly) invisible from (your favorite
place) during Pisces/Aries/Taurus? Too bad we don't have the
november/december charts; if this theory is correct then they
should have had dustbins and tubes, too.
One curious detail: there is a "cigarette" hole on the inner band of
the dark Taurus diagram (page f72r1), just clockwise of Miss Oparalar,
the 09:00 nymph. The hole lies right where her star should have been.
Through the hole one can see the head of Miss Kar, a Scorpio nymph
(page f73r, inner band, 09:15). The artist drew an extra arm on the
Taurus page, so that Miss Kar seems to be reaching through the hole
and holding the 09:30 star of Taurus --- while Miss Oparalar is
holding the 09:00 star in Scorpio.
This playful "fix" to the vellum defect (if it is not an illusion) may
mean several things. For one, it seems to imply that f72r1 was at
least retouched after f73r had been drawn. Moreover the bifolios were
already folded in their present positions, if not actually bound
together, when they were in the author's posession.
A good question is whether the extra arm on Taurus was drawn for Miss
Kar specifically. Perhaps it was drawn for some other nymph (possibly
on some other page), but the leaves were reshuffled/shifted
afterwards, and and Miss Kar just happened to land under the hole,
roughly in the right posiiton.
However I think I see a slightly darker spot on f73r, around the head
of Miss Kar, matching the hole; that may be evidence that the pages
were in the same relative position for a long time.
Moreover, Miss Kar seems to have been crammed between her two neighbors
almost as an afterthough, to the point that there was hardly
any space left for the two adjacent labels. Perhaps she was placed
there on purpose, to make the "joke" possible?
> About 1 out of 6 of the standing nymphs have their hand pointing
> behind them, not on the hip. But for nine-pointed stars this fraction
> is zero. I checked that the probability of this is 0.02 if this
> was just due to chance.
Interesting...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[stolfi 21 Jan 1999]
> [Rene:] About 1 out of 6 of the standing nymphs have their hand
> pointing behind them, not on the hip. But for nine-pointed stars
> this fraction is zero. I checked that the probability of this is
> 0.02 if this was just due to chance.
Good point.
Yesterday I thought that those nymphs might mark the starting point
for reading each ring of stars. Now that I have looked at those cases
with some care I am not so sure. Anyway, here are the cases that I
could see:
70v2 Pisces
There is one nymph with both arms raised at 00:15 in
the inner band.
I would say that this is the most likely starting point for
the inner star sequence, which runs clockwise (agreeing with
the text). Thus I think that the inner parade begins with
Miss Otalar (stretched arm), and ends with Miss Otaral
(facing clockwise)
This is another anomaly of Pisces, since in the
other diagrams the starting point seems to be around 10:30. I
suppose tha the last nymph at 11:30 was reversed so that it
would face the "honor spot" at noon.
The starting point of the outer band is not so obvious. I
would say it is near the top, too, but it could be before,
after, or in the middle of the four "baby" nymphs.
f70v1 Aries "dark"
Here all nymphs have the right hand on the hip; several have
the left hand down too. My guess for the starting point is at
10:30 in both bands, i.e. Miss Otalchy (the Tar Am Dy) and
Miss Okoly. Note that they (and only they) are holding their
high enough to intrude into the surrounding text ring.
Moreover Miss Okoly is wearing a striped sleeve (or
whatever).
Note again that the label at 06:00 is not obviously
associated with any star, so it must be attached to one of
the nymphs. I would say that, going clockwise, each label is
associated with the preceding nymph.
f71r Aries light
Here all nymphs have the same pose: right arm
on the hip, left arm up and holding the star.
The stars have no tails, except for the outer 04:30
one that has a very short one.
The starting point for each text ring is clearly marked by
the "notched square" device, which occurs in other cosmo
diagrams, presumably with the same function.
As I argued in my previous message, this is the zodiac page
with the most "primitive" style.
f71v Taurus "light"
Here too all nymphs have the same pose. I see no obvious
"start" marker for the nymphs, except perhaps for the
decorated dustbin of Miss Otalody, the inner nymph at 00:00.
However the outer text ring has a wider gap at 10:30 (the
"standard" starting place), with a centered dot which may be
the last vestige of the notched square symbol.
To my eyes, the style of this page is only a bit less primitive than that
of f71r.
f72r1 Taurus "dark"
The outer nymph at 02:30 has her right arm stretched back and
down; all the others have the right hand on the hip or inside
the dustbins.
There are no obviosu start markers that I can see, but the
reproduction I have is unreadable around 03:00. There is
anextra wide gap in the inner parade around 10:30, but that
may be a consequence of the "cigarette hole" and its visual
pun. Other plausible candidates are the nymphs at 00:00, Miss
Otchoshy and Miss Oaiin Ar-Ary.
I would say that the figures on the outer band of this
diagram are the first attempts by the artist at drawing
full-body naked women.
f72r2 Gemini
My copy is almost illegible. I can see on the outer band one
naked nymph at 10:30, Miss Okar-Aldy, with the right arm
stretched out. That seems to be the "standard" starting
position in several other diagrams.
Most of the other nymphs have the right hand on the hip. Some
have the right arm back and down, bent or straight, but it is
questionable whether this pose is significantly different
from hand-on-hip. The extreme case is the figure at 06:30 on
the outer band, Miss (or Master?) Otarar (dressed, standing
on an horizontal tube); the first of four dressed figures.
Miss Ofchdamy, the first of the five "extra" nymphs at the top,
may be another significant exception, but her
forearm is not visible on my copy.
f72r3 Cancer
The outer nymph at 11:00, miss Otchy(?)-Daiin, has the right
arm stretched back and down at 45 degrees. She may well be the
leader of that band; there is a wide gap between her and the
preceding nymph at 09:30.
I cannot see any other nymph with stretched right arm, but
half of the nymphs are just faint blurs on my copy.
f72v3 Leo
I see two ladies with the right arm stretched back and down at
45 degrees, bot on the inner band: Miss Oky at 11:30,
and Miss Oteeod(?) at 06:15.
There is no obvious starting point, but the diagram is
cut by multiple creases between 07:00 and 10:30, which seems
a natural place to start.
f72v2 Virgo
This seems to be a very complicated month astronomically 8-)
There are many nymphs in new and strange poses, and even a freak
reappearance of the dustbin (shallow, with "cutaway" edge).
I can see several nymphs with the right arm stretched back and
down at 45 degrees. In the outer band there are Opaiin at 08:30,
and Ofchdy-Sh. at 05:00. In the inner band we have four consecutive
nymphs starting at 05:00 (Cheosy, Ofcheey, Yteedy, On-Aiin).
However we also have a nymph at 00:15, Miss Oeedy, with *both*
arms stretched back, and hands clasped behind her. Three
nymphs (outer Oeedey and Oeeo-Daiin at 10:30-10:45, inner
Oka*** at 10:30) are grasping their stars with both hands;
and inner Okeeom at 01:30 is almost doing the same.
f72v1 Libra
Miss Oteoly at 10:30 on the outer band (the "standard" starting
place), has the right arm stretched back and down. But so do
Miss Okeeoly at 01:00 and Miss Okal at 11:00.
In the inner band the nymphs are holding their right hand in
various positions near the hip; none seems to have a clearly
"stretched-out" arm. The one that comes closest is Miss Oko**y
at 03:30, but she is bending down to avoid the "cigarette
hole", and the hand position my be accidental. In any case
that hole would be a natural starting place for the inner band.
f73r Scorpio
Outer Misses Dolshey and Opaiin at 08:00-09:00 have outstretched
right arms. The latter is more exhuberant and holds a bigger
star. 09:00 could be a starting place in this case.
Ladies Shekal, Okeedy and Okedal at 05:00-06:30 outer band,
have stretchde arms. They cannot be all starting points...
In the ineer band, the stretched-arm ladies are Miss Chek and
Miss Kar (not their real names, I am sure 8-) Miss Kar, by the
way, is the one who was involved in the cigarette hole affair
with Taurus girl, as reported bove.
Outside the diagram, at the top, there are Miss Chockhy and
Miss Yteeody; the latter may a full stop, hardly a start marker...
f73v Sagittarus
I see only three ladies with stretched arms here. In the outer
band we have Miss Ykeody at 02:00 and Miss Okeody at 10:00; the
latter may well be the band leader. In the inner band I see only
Miss Otal at 03:00.
For whatever it is worth,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[stolfi 21 jan 1999]
> [Rene:] The order of the pages in the VMs is correct and
> deliberate.
I don't dispute this claim (for the zodiac section, at least).
But this claim is not incompatible with my proposal that Pisces and
Aries Dark were (re)drawn after Aries Light and Taurus. More on that
below.
Note that "after" does not imply "long after"; it is quite possible
that the whole section was done over the span of a few days. In fact I
estimate that each diagram could have been drawn and painted in less
than one hour, given a bit of pressure; so that perhaps the entire
zodiac section was done in a single (long) day..
Note also that the zodiac section was probably drawn while the sheets
were still unbound. For one thing, it is much easier to draw diagrams
like those on a loose sheet than on one that is attached to a book.
Also, if you spill ketchup on a loose sheet, you just get another
one...
In fact we are almost sure that the herbal and bio sections were drawn
while still unbound, so it is reasonable to assume the same for the
zodiac. Thus pages may have been rearranged and discarded by the
author, while producing that section, without leaving any material
trace in the bound book.
> The rings of nymphs are ordered inside to outside.
Agreed. (Needless to say, Murphy told me to transcribe them in the
opposite order...)
> The labels are written to the right [clockwise] of the nymphs
> with which they belong. This is mostly clear from the spacing,
> but proved by the outer-ring nymphs of Gemini, Scorpius and
> Sagittarius
Agreed. In fact from the spacing and placement of the labels, I would
say that they are attached to the nymphs and not to the stars. Note
for example on f70v2 (Pisces) the label <otar.am> at 11:00.
> While the circular text between the rings of nymphs are written
> clockwise, the nymphs themselves *could* be ordered in the opposite
> sense.
Perhaps, but given that the vast majority of the nymphs is facing
clockwise, it seems that the sequence is to be "read" that way.
(This rule seems to be valid for many other scripts, and I believe
it is commonly assumed for the Phaistos disk...)
The main exception to the clockwise-facing rule is the inner ring of
Pisces (again!). But that anomaly may have a trivial explanation,
see below...
> The order in which they were drawn is perhaps significant,
> but not necessarily so.
Quite plausible for a scribal copy, or a clean copy from a draft.
However the irregular spacing of the figures makes me believe that the
zodiac diagrams (indeed all cosmo diagrams) were drawn directly on the
VMS, without preliminary sketches, by the person who conceived them.
(Which BTW seems to be the typical "modus operandi" of child/teenage
artists.)
(Yes, this claim goes against the "ignorant scribe" theory which I
once argued for. But that must have been on a Tuesday...)
> I am still very impressed with a former list member's
> observation about this (Thibault but his first name was not
> Jehan) We are obviously seeing the birth of something:
Hm, that is certainly a plausible theory, but I don't buy the "obviously".
The observation that most impresed me (by
@ Robert Firth, if I recall
@ correctly) is that through the whole zodiac we see the artist
@ struggling to find the best layout for "30-nymph diagram". I would add
@ that he was also struggling with the symbology and decoration, and, on
@ top of it all, still learning to draw.
> From Pisces to Sagitarius there is a gradual but spectacular
> degradation in illustration quality.
I agree (except perhaps for Pisces), but only in the sense that the
drawings become more hurried, sketchy, and less carefully done. Also
all decoration gets dropped after the first few drawings.
Indeed a plausible explanation for the "undressing" of the nymphs may
be simply that a naked nymph can be drawn and painted much faster than a
dressed one.
On the other hand, from Aries to Sagitarius I see an equally gradual
and spectacular improvement in the artist's skill, especially at
drawing the female body. Just as the nymphs get simplified and
standardized, they also get drawn more realistically, with more
natural poses (except that they are also drawn with less care,
so the improvement is not obvious).
But Pisces (and Aries Light, to a lesser extent) seem to be anomalous
in both aspects. The nymphs in Pisces are better drawn than those in
Aries Dark, for sure. They are naked while those in Aries are still
clothed, and the barrels have lighter, more "mechanical" decoration.
So here is an alternative theory that tries to explain this style
anomaly and also the "oscillation" between tubes and dustbins. It is a
slight elaboation of the "discarded bifolio" theory from my earlier
message.
According to this theory, the original Pisces page was split in two
halves, like Aries and Taurus; in fact the author's original plan was
to do all the "signs" in that format. So, in the original plan, there
were to be at least two extra folios fX, fY, and four extra pages
before f71r, arranged like this:
fX recto: zodiac cover page
??----------------------------------- <- extra folio
fX verso: original Pisces 1
fY recto: original Pisces 2
??----------------------------------- <- extra folio
fY verso: original Aries 1
f71 recto: Aries 2 ("light")
-----------------------------------
/ f71 verso: Taurus 1 ("light")
|
\ f72 recto 1: Taurus 2 ("dark") recto 2 recto 3
-----------------------------------+--------····----+---------······---
f72 verso 1: Libra verso 2 verso 3
The artist began drawing the diagrams in order, starting with the
original Pisces 1. In those first few diagrams, all nymphs were drawn
inside dustbins. (The dustbin may have meant "rainy season", "womb",
"below the horizon", "cup of medicine", "unable to walk" --- whatever
Or it may have been just an excuse to avoid drawing the lower half of
the nymphs).
At some point --- most likely, after drawing Taurus 1 (f71v) --- the
artist decided to redraw the original Pisces 1/2 and Aries 1 pages,
for some reason. (Perhaps they had came out too ugly, or he changed
his mind on some important detail, or his kid found the book while he
was out and drew beards on all the nymphs.)
He choose to redraw those diagrams on f70v, possibly because he didn't
have spare vellum at hand. Since f70v had only two and a half panels,
he was forced to redraw Pisces 1 and 2 as a single diagram on
f70v2/v3. (He had no choice for Aries 1 either, since discarding Aries 2
would mean discarding Taurus 1, already drawn, and six precious
blank panels.)
He redrew Aries 1 first on f70v1, trying to match the style he had
used on Aries 2 --- including the dresses, even though he had already
started to dispense with them on Taurus 1.
Then he went on to Pisces on f70v2. By accident or design, he made the
"lanes" of the new Pisces diagram narrower than in the original
diagrams. He could have drawn smaller nymphs, but he was already
unhappy about the large gaps he had to leave in the other diagrams,
especially in the inner band. So he tried instead making the dustbins
narrower and turning them on the side. But he soon regretted that
idea, because it forced him to bend the nymphs' bodies in an unnatural
way.
On top of that, he began by drawing Miss Otaral at 11:30 and her twin sister
Miss Otalar at 00:15, facing each other; then, without realizing what
he was doing, he went down the band clockwise, orienting all nymphs
the same (wrong) way --- and had an unpleasant surprise at the end.
Wiser for the experience, he went back to upright dustbins for the
outer band. In either band he did not feel necessary to dress the
nymphs --- he had already gotten over that inhibition.
After redoing Pisces he went back to Taurus 2 (f72r1). While doing the
outer band he tried dispensing with the dustbins too, just as he had
given up on dresses (Either they were no longer applicable, or he
concluded that they were superfluous, or he devised a simpler
convention to encode the same information.)
His first attempt, Miss Oaiin Ar-Ary at 00:00, didn't come out quite
well; the frontal pose bothered him a bit and din't match the 3/4 view
of the head (the only view he had learned to draw). Besides, he made
the mistake of drawing the head too low (still at the "dustbin"
level), so the body came out too small.
The next attempt at 01:00, Miss Okalam, came out much better. However
he drew the wrong leg forward, and the other leg came out too short,
so she seemed to be twisting like a pretzel.
But practice makes perfect, and when he drew Miss Otaraldy
next at 02:00 he knew he had found the purpose of his life.
After finishing Taurus 2 he went on to Virgo. Thanks to the
involuntary experiment with Pisces, he figured that he could fit a
full 30-nymph diagram in a single normal page, saving not only vellum
but also time. (He miscalculated a bit however, so in the end he had
to draw the last five nymphs outside the diagram, at the top.)
After drawing 20 or so naked ladies for Virgo, he got a bit tired of
the theme. He tried adding some sort of base under the nymph at 06:00.
Then he tried dressed figures, full-body this time: two kids standing
on barrels, a lady with flowing dress, and a grown-up man. (A happy
family; perhaps "me, sis, mom and dad"?)
But that was just a temporary detour. Naked ladies were obviously more
fun (or at least easier to draw) so he went back to them for good.
About then he realized that it was past midnight, and he still had
eight diagrams and 240 nymphs to draw. So he hurried along through the
remaining pages. He did play around a bit here and there, trying
different hairdos and poses. But now he didn't have time for fun. Soon
he was too tired even to count the nymphs and watch the spacing, and
again he had to draw a few of them outside the frame. What the heck.
At four in the morning he was done. While cleaning up the desk and
refolding the sheets, he noticed the head of Miss Kar from Scorpio
poking through the hole on f71r. Tired as he was, he couldn't resist
adding a little joke, before blowing out the candle and collapsing
onto his bed.
Well, that is my guess at how the zodiac was made, modulo the obvious
variations. It does not explain what the diagrams mean (and they
surely must mean something!). But I think it explains fairly well the
variation in style and format that we can see along the section.
More importantly, this theory provides a "null hypothesis" that must
be kept in mind when investigatig the presumed "symbolism" of arms,
legs, tubs, dresses, etc.: namely, any or all of those details may
not mean anything...
All the best,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[John Grove 21 Jan 1999]
I could be incorrect - but I think that the Author of the VMs was a
follower of Astronomy as opposed to Astrology. The sun is just
entering Capricorn today in reality - not the Astrological Aquarius.
Thus, Pisces is still two months away - Commencing on the Vernal
Equinox - perhaps the 'inside' label of Pisces marks the beginning of
a new 'farmers' year with the beginning of spring, when the plants
begin to rise out of the snow cover they've been under - or new seeds
are broken open and the first sprouts of spring begin to show 'out of
the barrels' -- oh well - At least - I think the real Sun position is
a month out of whack with Astrology...
...
I just spent a little time searching zodiac related pages and found
this description of the vernal equinox/zodiac alignment point:
<<snip...
If you were born today, what would be your sign? This should be
constellation that the sun is located in today. Is it? No. The Sun is
usually located in the previous "sign's" constellation. So all of the
sign's are off by one. - Why?
Things have changed since the astrological signs were first set up by
the Babylonians in about 2000 BC. The orientation of the Earth
changes due to precession - the wobbling of the Earth. On the Vernal
Equinox in 2000 BC the Sun was located in between Aries and Pisces,
so for the next month every one should be an Aries (March 21 - April
21). But due to the Earth's precession, the Earth has wobbled so that
on the Vernal Equinox, the Sun is not in this location (it's actually
in Pisces and getting closer to Aquarius) on the first day of spring.
>>
So according to this, the first day of spring is now close to
Aquarius. -- What would it have been in the 14/15/16th century? Any
half decent astronomer of the time should have been able to see that
the sun wasn't lined up with the accepted zodiac year I.e. Aries =
Vernal equinox.
John.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[moonhawk 21 Jan 1999]
Again, I believe this is a misapplication of astrology. I don't have my
books nearby, but I believe it's the North Star, not the sun, that is the
pointer to Aquarius; or, rather, our North direction, which currently
points to what we therefore call the North Star. It's been a long time
since I looked at this topic, so I could be misremembering.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[grove 21 Jan 1999]
Reading back over some of the recent zodiac comments, I noticed
Adams Douglas had already alluded to the fact that the calendar seems
to be in the right order astronomically - rather than taking the
ancient start of Aries:
Adams Douglas wrote:
> It's already been mentioned that the VMs Zodiac seems to start with
> Pisces, which was astronomically correct for this millenium until the
> 20th century, rather that holding with the ancient tradition of > Starting in Aries. If there is a representation in the VMs of the > relative visibility of signs of that Zodiac, then it would seem to > indicate a particular time of year that is astronomically accurate.
I think that this basically gives the best explanation as to why the
calendar does start with Pisces and not Aries, and thus the first
label of the zodiac should relate to the vernal equinox, or spring,
or new year.
John.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[rene 21 Jan 1999]
> I could be incorrect - but I think that the Author of the VMs was a
> follower of Astronomy as opposed to Astrology. The sun is just
> entering Capricorn today in reality - not the Astrological Aquarius.
Well, in those days the distinction between the two was very different
from the modern understanding, and it is not an unfair simplification
to call them one and the same. As for the astrological signs: the sign
of Aries did (and does) coincide with the first 30 degrees of the
ecliptic 'to the left' of the crossing with the equator (vernal equinox).
In the days of Ptolemy, this area roughly coincided with the constellation
of Aries.
Since then, the ecliptic, and the constellations, stayed put, but the equator
moved and with the change of the crossover point, all signs shifted.
Now the sign of Aries coincides (approximately) with the
constellation of Pisces. This is really approximate. For one thing, the
ecliptic cuts through 13, not 12 constellations. The unlucky one
is Ophiuchus. And none of the constellations occupy a band of 30 degrees
either.
So the illustrations in the VMs refer to the signs, not the constellations.
The start with Pisces could very well mean that this sign is somehow special
to the author, or the person for whom this illustration is meant.
(My favourite schizophrenic 14th-15th C humanist who was versed in papal
codes and natural sciences and spent years in gaol was indeed born under
the sign of Pisces, but I don't know his ascendant).
Cheers, Rene
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[matthew skala 21 Jan 1999]
Present-day astrologers occasionally cast horoscopes based on a "sidereal
zodiac" rather than the standard "tropical zodiac"; they do this by taking
the standard division of the circle into 12 30-degree signs, and shifting
it so that it does coincide (more or less) with the constellations rather
than the equinoxes. I don't know what the supposed significance of this
shift is. It's not very commonly done, but they do do it sometimes.
It seems to me that a smart student of astro(log|nom)y in the VMS's time
period, could come up with a similar idea of "hey, let's make the signs
line up with the actual stars!". We already know that whoever created it
had some other new ideas, and new ideas tend to come in bunches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[rene 22 Jan 1999]
we cannot know what the VMs writer thought, imagined or
knew about astronomy, but let's see what he 'could have known'.
The rate of precession (the motion that makes the sign of Aries
visit all constellations in due time) was already known by Ptolemy,
and accurately applied by medieval astrolabe-makers to convert the
classical coordinates to the (then) current time. (In fact, it has been
shown beyond reasonable doubt that Ptolemy's coordinates were not
derived from his own observations, as he claims, but from an earlier
catalogue to which he himself applied the effect of precession). This
effect is equivalent with roughly 1 degree every 75 years.
So it is very reasonable to assume that the VMs writer knew perfectly
well that the vernal equinox was located in the constellation of Pisces.
The very knowledge that would have enabled him to consider an alternative
zodiac starting with Pisces would have told him that what matters are
the zodiac signs. They formed the origin of the coordinate system in
which one expressed the location of the stars. Using stars to define the
reference and placing the zodiac in that reference system is a modern
invention.
To illustrate.
- Ptolemy gives the coordinates of the important star Aldebaran (the
brightest star in Taurus) as:
longitude: Taurus 12 degrees, 40 minutes; latitude: -5 deg, 10 min.
- In a catalogue from the 9th-10th C it is listed at longitude Taurus 27 deg.
- Later catalogues (still prior to the 15th C) have it listed at Gemini
1 deg 26 min, Gemini 2 deg, etc.
This is the effect of precession at work. Astronomers were not bothered
by the fact that the star Aldebaran was located in the sign of Gemini.
Still, very important for us is that we should keep an open mind. If the
VMs zodiac starts with Pisces, it may refer to the sign of Pisces.
It may also refer to the sign of Aries, but Pisces was drawn in, to
indicate that he knew where the vernal equinox was. Or it may in fact
refer to the month of March, which has the sun in Pisces at the start.
Or, as I suggested before, the sign of Pisces may have been especially
important for him.
As Matthew Skala wrote:
> Present-day astrologers occasionally cast horoscopes based on a "sidereal
> zodiac" rather than the standard "tropical zodiac"; they do this by taking
> the standard division of the circle into 12 30-degree signs, and shifting
> it so that it does coincide (more or less) with the constellations rather
> than the equinoxes.
Again, they are using the signs. I must admit that I know virtually nothing
about 20th century astrology, but I would not be surprised if the sign
of Aries would still be counted as the 'first'. But that has little bearing
on the Voynich MS.
Lastly, while the zodiac illustrations in the VMs are unique as far as I
know, there are many other medieval Mss which have zodiac illustrations
consisting of a circular design with the zodiac sign in the middle and
30 'things' around it. The most famous one must be codex Vat. Reg. 1283
(i.e. from the collection of queen Christina of Sweden).
If I can't find it on the web somewhere, I'll put a gif at the
geocities site. It is of course completely different from the VMs.
And it should be read anti-clockwise...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[rene 22 Jan 1999]
Stolfi sent a long message about the zodiac section,
which deserves a reply of some sort, but I am sure this one
cannot do justice.
> > [Rene:] The order of the pages in the VMs is correct and
> > deliberate.
>
> I don't dispute this claim (for the zodiac section, at least).
Indeed, for the zodiac, but by extension also for the quire in which
the zodiac starts (nr. 10). A frivolity: I hereby claim that the
lost folio 74 used to be a foldout. Can't be proved, can't be disproved.
But if it wasn't, it would have been the only single-page quire
in the VMs which isn't a foldout.
> But this claim is not incompatible with my proposal that Pisces and
> Aries Dark were (re)drawn after Aries Light and Taurus. More on that
> below.
The explanation is somewhat complicated. I like to keep it simple
and could (for example) very well imagine that the VMs writer
did the first few zodiac drawings by making a draft first and
copied that draft onto the pages we have. For the later pages
he could have drawn straight on the vellum. Surely, for the
last one it is hard to believe that any draft was ever involved.
> Note also that the zodiac section was probably drawn while the sheets
> were still unbound.
Agreed
> [...] given that the vast majority of the nymphs is facing
> clockwise, it seems that the sequence is to be "read" that way.
> (This rule seems to be valid for many other scripts, and I believe
> it is commonly assumed for the Phaistos disk...)
If this circular carved piece of stone is to be read outside
in, then yes. ( :-) )
> > I am still very impressed with a former list member's
> > observation about this (Thibault but his first name was not
> > Jehan) We are obviously seeing the birth of something:
In fact, Guy is still there.
> Hm, that is certainly a plausible theory, but I don't buy the "obviously".
My mistake. I should have said: "there is a strong suggestion that we
are seeing...". The 'person-sitting-in-a-cauldron'-type illustration
is reminiscent of the alchemical 'making of a homunculus'.
> > From Pisces to Sagitarius there is a gradual but spectacular
> > degradation in illustration quality.
>
> I agree (except perhaps for Pisces), but only in the sense that the
> drawings become more hurried, sketchy, and less carefully done. Also
> all decoration gets dropped after the first few drawings.
This is what I meant: more hurried. If the nymph was an infant on the
Pisces page, less detail would be required. The tubs are certainly
at least as decorated as on the next Aries page...
> [...] So, in the original plan, there
> were to be at least two extra folios fX, fY, and four extra pages
> before f71r, arranged like this:
>
> fX recto: zodiac cover page
> ??----------------------------------- <- extra folio
> fX verso: original Pisces 1
>
> fY recto: original Pisces 2
> ??----------------------------------- <- extra folio
> fY verso: original Aries 1
But what happened with the other pages on the same bifolios as these
extra ones? Pisces and Aries-1 are on the verso of some cosmo
pages. I must say that I see no reason to suspect anything wrong
with the page order as we see it...
Cheers, Rene
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[stolfi 23 Jan 1999]
> [Rene:] The order of the pages in the VMs is correct and
> deliberate. .... for the zodiac, but by extension also for the
> quire in which the zodiac starts (nr. 10).
I agree with this claim too. My fanta, er, theory assumes that quire
10 was done before the Zodiac section.
> ... I must say that I see no reason to suspect anything wrong
> with the page order as we see it...
My proposal does not imply any reordering of the pages or the signs;
on the contrary it assumes that the present order of the signs is the
order originally intended by the author. In fact, it implies that the
order was important, so much so that the author preferred to use f70v
rather than move Pisces to the end of the zodiac.
In particular, the redrawing theory has no bearing on the "why Pisces"
question. It would however explain why Pisces was not split like
Aries and Taurus, and why it has tubes instead of dustbins.
> A frivolity: I hereby claim that the lost folio 74 used to be a
> foldout. Can't be proved, can't be disproved. But if it wasn't,
> it would have been the only single-page quire in the VMs which
> isn't a foldout.
You mean single-sheet, presumably. Yes, that is quite possible.
(However, one implication of the redrawing theory is that the physical
layout of that section is partly accidental. So until this theory is
disproved I would not trust any conclusions based on presumed
regularity of the physical layout.)
Looking your "quires" note, it seems most likely that folio f74, if it
was a six-panel foldout, was attached to f73, after the fashion
of f69+f70 and f71+f72. Is this what you had in mind?
But that begs the question: what would those six panels contain?
Panels f74r1 and f74r2 must have contained the two missing signs
(Capricorn and Aquarius). Perhaps f74r3 contained a "conclusion"
similar to the last paragraph of the Cosmo section (f70r2+3) --- and
to the last paragraph of the Stars section (f116r).
I propose that the remaining three panels (f74v1+2+3) were simply left
blank, to serve as a temporary back cover --- just as f116v was left
blank at the end of the Stars section, and as f70v (according to the
redrawing theory) was left blank at the end of the Cosmo section.
Indeed that suggests an explanation for the loss of folio f74: almost
surely it was the last folio of the book for a while, and so it must
have taken more abuse than the rest of the Zodiac. Even if it didn't
fall off on its own, by the time the Pharma section was added f74 may
have been in such a poor condition that it had to be discarded.
(By the way, the fact that bifolios f67+f68, f69+f70 and f71+f72 all
have similar dimensions suggests that they were part of the same batch
of blank vellum, which in turn is strong evidence that the Cosmo and
Zodiac sections were done with little or no interval between them.)
> The explanation is somewhat complicated. I like to keep it simple
> and could (for example) very well imagine that the VMs writer
> did the first few zodiac drawings by making a draft first and
> copied that draft onto the pages we have. For the later pages
> he could have drawn straight on the vellum.
The main arguments I have for the redrawing theory are based on the
style and feel of the drawings. Unfortunately it is hard to turn
those feelings into objective statements. I can only say that the
difference that I see between Pisces and Aries 2 are not simply a
question of draft/no draft.
Going from Aries 2 to Pisces (and even from the inner to the outer
band in each diagram) I see clear improvements not only in the
artist's skill at drawing nymphs, but also in his conception of the
diagram (including the switch from the "15+15" format to the "30"
one.)
I wish I knew how to be more specific...
> If this circular carved piece of stone is to be read outside
> in, then yes. ( :-) )
Note I said "assumed" but didn't add "correctly" 8-)
> The tubs are certainly at least as decorated [on Pisces] as on
> the next Aries page...
Yes, but the proposed drawing order is
Aries2 - Taurus1 - ( Aries1 - Pisces ) - Taurus2 - (all the rest)
except that the redrawing of Aries1 and Pisces could have happened anytime
between the start of Taurus1 and the finishing of Taurus2.
> But what happened with the other pages on the same bifolios as these
> extra ones?
Indeed, that is a weak spot of the theory.
If the original plan was to have 24 diagrams of 15 nymphs each, then
three of his "double A4" vellum sheets, each with space for 8 panels,
would be just enough. But then there would be no panels left over for
covers, and the pairing would be inconvenient --- the two halves of each
sign would have to lie on opposite sides of the same folio.
So it is somewhat more likely that he had planned to use 4 bifolios,
in which case one of them could have been a "standard" 4-panel sheet.
Then the planned physical layout could have been
fXXr: front cover
------------------------- <- discarded later
/ fXXv: Pisces1
|
\ fYYr: Pisces2
------------------------- <- discarded later
fYYv: Aries1
f71r: Aries2
-------------------------
/ f71v: Taurus1
|
\ f72r1: Taurus2 f72r2: Gemini1 f72r3: Gemini2
-------------------------+-----------------------+--------------------
f72v1: Leo1 f72v2: Cancer2 f72v3: Cancer1
f73r: Leo2
-------------------------
/ f73v: Virgo1
|
\ f74r1: Virgo2 f74r2: Libra1 f74r3: Libra2
-------------------------+-----------------------+-------------------- <- lost
f74v1: Sagittarius1 f74v2: Scorpio2 f74v3: Scorpio1
f75r: Sagittarius2
------------------------- <- not needed
/ f75v: Capricorn1
|
\ f75r1: Capricorn2 f75r2: Aquarius1 f75r3: Aquarius3
-------------------------+-----------------------+-------------------- <- not needed
f75v1: back cover (blank) ....................................
Of course the last bifolio was droppd from the plan after
the switch to the 30-nymph format.
There are many other possibilities, e.g. that the original plan was to
have four nested bifolios, or to fold the bifolios in a diffrent way.
But... the assumption of a discarded bifolio may not be necessary
after all. Suppose the Artist had planned to draw the Zodiac as a
continuation of the Cosmo section, as you say, but using 24 15-nymph
diagrams, according to this layout:
----------------------
/
|
\ f70r: Cosmo stuff ..................................................
----------------------+---------------------+-------------------------
f70v1: Aries1 f70v2: Pisces2 f70v3: Pisces 1
f71r: Aries2
----------------------
/ f71v: Taurus1
|
\ f72r1: Taurus2 f72r2: Gemini1 f72r3: Gemini2
----------------------+---------------------+-------------------------
f72v1: Leo1 f72v2: Cancer2 f72v3: Cancer1
etc.
However, for some reason the Artist could not start with Pisces1.
(Perhaps the Cosmo booklet was in use by the Master, or bifolio
f69+f70 still had to be unbound, or the Scribe was still busy on it.)
So the Artist started his job with Aries2 and continued with Taurus1
and Taurus2. Before he finished the latter he got hold of bifolio
f69+f70, and noticed to his chagrin that panel f70v3 was too narrow
even for a 15-nymph diagram.
Thus he was forced to invent the 30-nymph format for Pisces. When he
went back to Gemini, he realized that, if he sqeezed things a little,
he could use the 30-nymph format even on standard-width panels. The
rest of the story goes on as before.
Actually, I prefer this version of the theory to the previous
one, because it does not require the Artist to discard an expensive
vellum sheet and a couple of hours of his work. Somehow, such a act of
Artistic Heroism does not seem to square with his obvious haste and
sloppiness in later diagrams.
All the best,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[adams Douglas 20 Jan 1999]
Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> If tubes and dustbins are meaningful, an obvious guess for their
> meaning is visibility. (Didn't Rene suggest this some time ago?) My
> brain battery is low now so I cannot think out the geometry involved.
> Would some Zodiac stars be (partly) invisible from (your favorite
> place) during Pisces/Aries/Taurus? Too bad we don't have the
> november/december charts; if this theory is correct then they
> should have had dustbins and tubes, too.
The Zodiac can be visualized as a band of constellations around the
celestial sphere tilted at a 22.5 degree angle relative to the celestial
equator. One way to think about what's obscured is a bowl (hmm, a tub?) in
which the celestial sphere sits and rotates throughout the day and year.
You can only see what's above the edge of the bowl. Whatever constallation
the Sun is in, it's the opposite constallations (and planets in those
constellations) which are visible at night--about 4/5ths of the full set
There is nowhere on Earth that some signs of the Zodiac are always
invisible, this would be the same as places on Earth where the Sun is always
invisible. But all signs are invisible for different portions of the year,
because they're below the horizon at night.
It's already been mentioned that the VMs Zodiac seems to start with
Pisces, which was astronomically correct for this millenium until the
20th century, rather that holding with the ancient tradition of starting
in Aries. If there is a representation in the VMs of the relative
visibility of signs of that Zodiac, then it would seem to indicate a
particular time of year that is astronomically accurate. Since I haven't
got the classic Zodiac memorized I'll have to go look today and get back
to this--but it's a very interesting idea.
-Adams
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[stolfi 23 Jan 1999]
> [Rene:] The order of the pages in the VMs is correct and
> deliberate. .... for the zodiac, but by extension also for the
> quire in which the zodiac starts (nr. 10).
I agree with this claim too. My fanta, er, theory assumes that quire
10 was done before the Zodiac section.
> ... I must say that I see no reason to suspect anything wrong
> with the page order as we see it...
My proposal does not imply any reordering of the pages or the signs;
on the contrary it assumes that the present order of the signs is the
order originally intended by the author. In fact, it implies that the
order was important, so much so that the author preferred to use f70v
rather than move Pisces to the end of the zodiac.
In particular, the redrawing theory has no bearing on the "why Pisces"
question. It would however explain why Pisces was not split like
Aries and Taurus, and why it has tubes instead of dustbins.
> A frivolity: I hereby claim that the lost folio 74 used to be a
> foldout. Can't be proved, can't be disproved. But if it wasn't,
> it would have been the only single-page quire in the VMs which
> isn't a foldout.
You mean single-sheet, presumably. Yes, that is quite possible.
(However, one implication of the redrawing theory is that the physical
layout of that section is partly accidental. So until this theory is
disproved I would not trust any conclusions based on presumed
regularity of the physical layout.)
Looking your "quires" note, it seems most likely that folio f74, if it
was a six-panel foldout, was attached to f73, after the fashion
of f69+f70 and f71+f72. Is this what you had in mind?
But that begs the question: what would those six panels contain?
Panels f74r1 and f74r2 must have contained the two missing signs
(Capricorn and Aquarius). Perhaps f74r3 contained a "conclusion"
similar to the last paragraph of the Cosmo section (f70r2+3) --- and
to the last paragraph of the Stars section (f116r).
I propose that the remaining three panels (f74v1+2+3) were simply left
blank, to serve as a temporary back cover --- just as f116v was left
blank at the end of the Stars section, and as f70v (according to the
redrawing theory) was left blank at the end of the Cosmo section.
Indeed that suggests an explanation for the loss of folio f74: almost
surely it was the last folio of the book for a while, and so it must
have taken more abuse than the rest of the Zodiac. Even if it didn't
fall off on its own, by the time the Pharma section was added f74 may
have been in such a poor condition that it had to be discarded.
(By the way, the fact that bifolios f67+f68, f69+f70 and f71+f72 all
have similar dimensions suggests that they were part of the same batch
of blank vellum, which in turn is strong evidence that the Cosmo and
Zodiac sections were done with little or no interval between them.)
> The explanation is somewhat complicated. I like to keep it simple
> and could (for example) very well imagine that the VMs writer
> did the first few zodiac drawings by making a draft first and
> copied that draft onto the pages we have. For the later pages
> he could have drawn straight on the vellum.
The main arguments I have for the redrawing theory are based on the
style and feel of the drawings. Unfortunately it is hard to turn
those feelings into objective statements. I can only say that the
difference that I see between Pisces and Aries 2 are not simply a
question of draft/no draft.
Going from Aries 2 to Pisces (and even from the inner to the outer
band in each diagram) I see clear improvements not only in the
artist's skill at drawing nymphs, but also in his conception of the
diagram (including the switch from the "15+15" format to the "30"
one.)
I wish I knew how to be more specific...
> If this circular carved piece of stone is to be read outside
> in, then yes. ( :-) )
Note I said "assumed" but didn't add "correctly" 8-)
> The tubs are certainly at least as decorated [on Pisces] as on
> the next Aries page...
Yes, but the proposed drawing order is
Aries2 - Taurus1 - ( Aries1 - Pisces ) - Taurus2 - (all the rest)
except that the redrawing of Aries1 and Pisces could have happened anytime
between the start of Taurus1 and the finishing of Taurus2.
> But what happened with the other pages on the same bifolios as these
> extra ones?
Indeed, that is a weak spot of the theory.
If the original plan was to have 24 diagrams of 15 nymphs each, then
three of his "double A4" vellum sheets, each with space for 8 panels,
would be just enough. But then there would be no panels left over for
covers, and the pairing would be inconvenient --- the two halves of each
sign would have to lie on opposite sides of the same folio.
So it is somewhat more likely that he had planned to use 4 bifolios,
in which case one of them could have been a "standard" 4-panel sheet.
Then the planned physical layout could have been
fXXr: front cover
------------------------- <- discarded later
/ fXXv: Pisces1
|
\ fYYr: Pisces2
------------------------- <- discarded later
fYYv: Aries1
f71r: Aries2
-------------------------
/ f71v: Taurus1
|
\ f72r1: Taurus2 f72r2: Gemini1 f72r3: Gemini2
-------------------------+-----------------------+--------------------
f72v1: Leo1 f72v2: Cancer2 f72v3: Cancer1
f73r: Leo2
-------------------------
/ f73v: Virgo1
|
\ f74r1: Virgo2 f74r2: Libra1 f74r3: Libra2
-------------------------+-----------------------+-------------------- <- lost
f74v1: Sagittarius1 f74v2: Scorpio2 f74v3: Scorpio1
f75r: Sagittarius2
------------------------- <- not needed
/ f75v: Capricorn1
|
\ f75r1: Capricorn2 f75r2: Aquarius1 f75r3: Aquarius3
-------------------------+-----------------------+-------------------- <- not needed
f75v1: back cover (blank) ....................................
Of course the last bifolio was droppd from the plan after
the switch to the 30-nymph format.
There are many other possibilities, e.g. that the original plan was to
have four nested bifolios, or to fold the bifolios in a diffrent way.
But... the assumption of a discarded bifolio may not be necessary
after all. Suppose the Artist had planned to draw the Zodiac as a
continuation of the Cosmo section, as you say, but using 24 15-nymph
diagrams, according to this layout:
----------------------
/
|
\ f70r: Cosmo stuff ..................................................
----------------------+---------------------+-------------------------
f70v1: Aries1 f70v2: Pisces2 f70v3: Pisces 1
f71r: Aries2
----------------------
/ f71v: Taurus1
|
\ f72r1: Taurus2 f72r2: Gemini1 f72r3: Gemini2
----------------------+---------------------+-------------------------
f72v1: Leo1 f72v2: Cancer2 f72v3: Cancer1
etc.
However, for some reason the Artist could not start with Pisces1.
(Perhaps the Cosmo booklet was in use by the Master, or bifolio
f69+f70 still had to be unbound, or the Scribe was still busy on it.)
So the Artist started his job with Aries2 and continued with Taurus1
and Taurus2. Before he finished the latter he got hold of bifolio
f69+f70, and noticed to his chagrin that panel f70v3 was too narrow
even for a 15-nymph diagram.
Thus he was forced to invent the 30-nymph format for Pisces. When he
went back to Gemini, he realized that, if he sqeezed things a little,
he could use the 30-nymph format even on standard-width panels. The
rest of the story goes on as before.
Actually, I prefer this version of the theory to the previous
one, because it does not require the Artist to discard an expensive
vellum sheet and a couple of hours of his work. Somehow, such a act of
Artistic Heroism does not seem to square with his obvious haste and
sloppiness in later diagrams.
All the best,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[stolfi 28 Jan 1999]
By the way, I strongly suspect that the drawings were made by a young
child or teenager, who may not have seen a naked person before. This
may sound unbelievable to some cultures, but would have been quite
possible in medieval Europe --- people did not take baths then, and
nakedness was strongly supressed as immoral and sinful. Until recently
it would have been quite common for people to grow up without even
seeing a person of the opposite sex naked, not even close relatives...
(This does not mean that the *author of the book* was a child. I
believe that in those times most artists began as apprentices and
assistants when they were in their early teens. Also, when my mother
was 13 years old, in pre-war Italy, she was already working as an
"artist" for architects and home decorators. Even today many cartoon
"artists" are very young, often under 18; they are not younger mainly
because of labor laws, which of course did not apply to medieval
times.
So it is quite possible that the VMS author hired a boy or girl to
do the drawings, or left the work to his own child.)
He also doesn't have breasts, which confirms he is male. But the lack
of breasts, by itself, is not proof: the figures in the first drawings
(Aries f71r) don't have breasts but must be female.
All the best,
Dear all,
the month names written on the zodiac pages have been discussed
quite a few times already. Not unexpectedly, there is not much
agreement about their origin. The first few are quite readable,
and read:
Mars, Abril, May, Yony
Then there is the very German 'Augst'
An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
been suggested once.
Whether the month names were written by the original writer or
a later owner, it should say something about the location of the
VMs at some point in time - prior to its appearance in Prague, I
would say.
It doesn't fit with Voynich's scenario, where the VMs was located
mostly in England and Bohemia. If the VMs originates from N. Italy
of Germany, then it must have travelled a bit before it reached
Prague. Unless a N. Italian dialect can be identified that has these
month names. Or we postulate that the writer, in N. Italy, was of
another origin.
Interestingly, I read in a book by Paul Kunitsch, who is a recognised
expert in Arabic star lore, that the following month names were
used normally by astronomers in the Arabic West:
ynyr, fbryr, mrs, 'bryl, m'yh, ywnyh, ywlyh, 'gst, stnbr, 'ktwbr,
nwnbr, dgnbr.
This is how they were printed in the book, except that the 's' in august
and september have a caret (hacek) above them and so does
the 'g' in december. The quote represents the glotal stop.
Obviously, in the Mss that the book describes, this would have been
written in the Arabic script.
The only one that does not seem to fit is the 'octembre'.
So who could have written these month names, and where and when
did he do it?
Anybody know a specialist in mediaeval Romance languages?
Cheers, Rene
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:14:38 1999
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["3915" "Mon" "15" "February" "1999" "06:35:34" " +0000" "Jorge Stolfi" "stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br" nil nil "Re: The month names once more" "^From:" nil nil "2" "99021506:35:34" nil (number " " mark " Jorge Stolfi 1999- 2-15 3915 \"Re: The month names once more\"\n") nil]
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Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene)
In-Reply-To: <m10C8I0-0003SZC@fwd14.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Re: The month names once more
> The first few are quite readable, and read:
> Mars, Abril, May, Yony
They certainly are names of months, and that is how I
read them, too.
But some of the letters can be read only by assuming that the word is
a month name, so that the question is merely choosing between a few
"plausible" spellings.
For example the word on f70v1 could also be read "abcril" and that on
f71r could be "ab'rab" or "abirib" or many other things. The reading
"abril" is only a fair compromise between what we expect to read and
what is really there on the paper...
On f71v, I see a (round) circumflex over the "y" in "May"; is it noise?
It is not present on f72r1.
The final "y" of "yony" seems to be closed at the top.
On f72r3 I think I see a double "l" and an "y" at the end,
perhaps "yoll*y".
> Then there is the very German 'Augst'
I see a dot over the first leg of the "u"; is that noise?
On f72v2 I read "s#*p$@b^" where "#*$@^" are illegible. The "#*" seems
too big for an "e". The "$" could be a "t", okay. There is a short
crescent-shaped mark over the "@", and a longer stroke over both, so I
am willing to grant that the "@" could be "en" or "em". The "^" is an
L-shaped superscript, which could be an abbreviation for "er".
> An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
>
> Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
> as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
> been suggested once.
Indeed I once found through Altavista this sample entry from the
Oxford English Dictionary (no longer on-line) that says:
October (ktb(r)). Also 37 -bre; in 7 sometimes abbrev. 8bre,
8ber. [In OE. and mod.Eng. a. L. October, -obrem, f. octo eight
(orig. the eighth month of the year); in ME. a. F. Octobre (1303 in
Hatz.-Darm.), ad. L. Octobrem, which supplanted the popular
OF. oitovre. Med.L. had also the analogical form Octember, -imber,
13th c. F. Octembre, Pr. Octembre.] ^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
"Pr." is Provençal, I assume.
> Whether the month names were written by the original writer or
> a later owner
I propose that the person who wrote the month names is the same
who wrote the "michiton" lines on f116v. The letter shapes
and the handwriting seem to match, don't you thinks so?
I propose also (somewhat less convincingly)
that the person who wrote the "michiton" lines was the author.
That is because the words <oror sheey> on f116v seem to be part of
the text, implying that the writer of that sentence knew
Voynichese.
> it should say something about the location of the
> VMs at some point in time - prior to its appearance in Prague, I
> would say.
> It doesn't fit with Voynich's scenario, where the VMs was located
> mostly in England and Bohemia.
The German-looking letters and the "augst" seem compatible with Bohemia,
next door to Germany. (Wasn't Rudolph more German than Czech?)
> Unless a N. Italian dialect can be identified that has these
> month names.
Seems unlikely....
> Or we postulate that the writer, in N. Italy, was of
> another origin.
The "b" in "abril" seems characteristic of Spanish and Portuguese.
> Interestingly, I read in a book by Paul Kunitsch, who is a recognised
> expert in Arabic star lore, that the following month names were
> used normally by astronomers in the Arabic West:
>
> ynyr, fbryr, mrs, 'bryl, m'yh, ywnyh, ywlyh, 'gst, stnbr, 'ktwbr,
> nwnbr, dgnbr.
Interesting!
The Arabs ruled Spain and Portugal for several centuries, and left
their mark on the language---such as a couple hundred words
beginning with "al-". I wonder if the change from Latin "april.." to
Spanish/Portuguese "abril" was also part of that influence?
Or was it the other way around---the "'bryl" above were borrowed from
...
All the best,
--stolfi
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:14:46 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:36:19 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <m10C8I0-0003SZC@fwd14.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Re: The month names once more
> The first few are quite readable, and read:
> Mars, Abril, May, Yony
They certainly are names of months, and that is how I
read them, too.
But some of the letters can be read only by assuming that the word is
a month name, so that the question is merely choosing between a few
"plausible" spellings.
For example the word on f70v1 could also be read "abcril" and that on
f71r could be "ab'rab" or "abirib" or many other things. The reading
"abril" is only a fair compromise between what we expect to read and
what is really there on the paper...
On f71v, I see a (round) circumflex over the "y" in "May"; is it noise?
It is not present on f72r1.
The final "y" of "yony" seems to be closed at the top.
On f72r3 I think I see a double "l" and an "y" at the end,
perhaps "yoll*y".
> Then there is the very German 'Augst'
I see a dot over the first leg of the "u"; is that noise?
On f72v2 I read "s#*p$@b^" where "#*$@^" are illegible. The "#*" seems
too big for an "e". The "$" could be a "t", okay. There is a short
crescent-shaped mark over the "@", and a longer stroke over both, so I
am willing to grant that the "@" could be "en" or "em". The "^" is an
L-shaped superscript, which could be an abbreviation for "er".
> An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
>
> Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
> as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
> been suggested once.
Indeed I once found through Altavista this sample entry from the
Oxford English Dictionary (no longer on-line) that says:
October (ktb(r)). Also 37 -bre; in 7 sometimes abbrev. 8bre,
8ber. [In OE. and mod.Eng. a. L. October, -obrem, f. octo eight
(orig. the eighth month of the year); in ME. a. F. Octobre (1303 in
Hatz.-Darm.), ad. L. Octobrem, which supplanted the popular
OF. oitovre. Med.L. had also the analogical form Octember, -imber,
13th c. F. Octembre, Pr. Octembre.] ^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
"Pr." is Provençal, I assume.
> Whether the month names were written by the original writer or
> a later owner
I propose that the person who wrote the month names is the same
who wrote the "michiton" lines on f116v. The letter shapes
and the handwriting seem to match, don't you thinks so?
I propose also (somewhat less convincingly)
that the person who wrote the "michiton" lines was the author.
That is because the words <oror sheey> on f116v seem to be part of
the text, implying that the writer of that sentence knew
Voynichese.
> it should say something about the location of the
> VMs at some point in time - prior to its appearance in Prague, I
> would say.
> It doesn't fit with Voynich's scenario, where the VMs was located
> mostly in England and Bohemia.
The German-looking letters and the "augst" seem compatible with Bohemia,
next door to Germany. (Wasn't Rudolph more German than Czech?)
> Unless a N. Italian dialect can be identified that has these
> month names.
Seems unlikely....
> Or we postulate that the writer, in N. Italy, was of
> another origin.
The "b" in "abril" seems characteristic of Spanish and Portuguese.
> Interestingly, I read in a book by Paul Kunitsch, who is a recognised
> expert in Arabic star lore, that the following month names were
> used normally by astronomers in the Arabic West:
>
> ynyr, fbryr, mrs, 'bryl, m'yh, ywnyh, ywlyh, 'gst, stnbr, 'ktwbr,
> nwnbr, dgnbr.
Interesting!
The Arabs ruled Spain and Portugal for several centuries, and left
their mark on the language---such as a couple hundred words
beginning with "al-". I wonder if the change from Latin "april.." to
Spanish/Portuguese "abril" was also part of that influence?
Or was it the other way around---the "'bryl" above were borrowed from
...
All the best,
--stolfi
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:14:48 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 02:31:09 -0700 (MST)
From: "Annette M. Stroud" <astroud@du.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <199902150836.GAA11537@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Subject: Re: The month names once more
On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> The "b" in "abril" seems characteristic of Spanish and Portuguese.
>
> > Interestingly, I read in a book by Paul Kunitsch, who is a recognised
> > expert in Arabic star lore, that the following month names were
> > used normally by astronomers in the Arabic West:
> >
> > ynyr, fbryr, mrs, 'bryl, m'yh, ywnyh, ywlyh, 'gst, stnbr, 'ktwbr,
> > nwnbr, dgnbr.
>
> Interesting!
>
> The Arabs ruled Spain and Portugal for several centuries, and left
> their mark on the language---such as a couple hundred words
> beginning with "al-". I wonder if the change from Latin "april.." to
> Spanish/Portuguese "abril" was also part of that influence?
> Or was it the other way around---the "'bryl" above were borrowed from
> ...
There is no "p" sound in arabic. Closest is "b". There is also no "v".
Annette
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:13:49 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990215021500.13979A-100000@odin.cair.du.edu>
Subject: Re: The month names once more
> [Annette:] There is no "p" sound in arabic. Closest is "b".
> There is also no "v".
Thanks! That still doesn't imply that the Iberian "b" in "abril" is due to
Arab influence, but somehow makes it a bit more likely...
Another observation about month names: note that they are written in
odd places and angles, and "december" (Sagittarius) in particular is
squeezed beyond recognition. That probably means that the names were
not planned from the beginning, but added as an afterthought, when all
the drawings were already done.
It doesn't follow, however, that the month names were written by a
different person. In fact, another argument for assigning f116v to the
original VMS author is that the drawings on that page are quite
similar in theme and style to the other illustrations (especially the
"biological" ones); and it is hard to explain why the artist would
squeeze those pictures in the margin of f116v if the text wasn't there yet.
Furthermore, consider the possibility that the person who wrote the
month names (and the "michiton" line on f116v) did not know any
Western language, not even the month names, and was quite unfamiliar
with the Western alphabet; so he merely copied those words as pictures
(as I would copy an Arabic word).
This theory may explain certain strange details of the month names,
such as the dot over the "u" of "augst", the misplaced dot of "abril",
the extra stuff between the "s" and "p" of "september", etc. It may
also explain why the handwriting of f116v is so ugly, why no one has
been able to identify its language, and why there are no Latin or
Greek letters at all in the text proper...
All the best,
--stolfi
PS. It would be handy to have a standard nickname for the VMS author,
just as we have "VMS" for the book and "Voynichese" for the language
and script. Any suggestions?
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References: <m10C8I0-0003SZC@fwd14.btx.dtag.de> <36C85DDF.2A12@alphalink.com.au>
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:29:55 GMT
From: mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <36C85DDF.2A12@alphalink.com.au>
Subject: Re: The month names once more
jguy <jguy@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
>Rene wrote:
>
>> An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
>> Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
>> as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
>> been suggested once.
>
>Quite some time ago now, someone on this list said that it was
>slavic, more precisely, Czech if I remember. Russian, on the
>other hand, has lost the "m" everywhere: okt'abr', nojabr',
>dek'abr'
Russian <ja> is the regular reflex of the Common Slavic nasal
vowel /e~/. Oktjabr' < okte~brI, which in turn must derive from
a Greek form <oktembrios>, besides the literary form
<okto:brios>. But the Greek (< Latin) month names are used only
in the Slavic areas which were converted to Orthodox
Christianity. Most Catholic areas have native month names
("October" is paz'dziernik in Polish, r^íjen in Czech, listopad
in Croatian). The exceptions are Slovenian (which has Latin
month names under Austrian influence) and Ukrainian (which has
Polish month names under Polish influence). That rules out
Czech. Serbian, Bulgarian or (Old) Russian are possibilities,
and so are Greek and Romanian. The Romanian month names are not
directly inherited from Latin, but borrowed from Greek/Bulgarian,
and October is "octombrie" (which looks like a contamination
between oktobrios/oktobar and oktembrios/oktembar).
But, as Jorge has said, Medieval/Vulgar Latin octember is also a
possibility. The anaology with september, november and december
could have arisen anywhere and anytime where Latin/Greek month
names were in use.
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl
Amsterdam
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:14:58 1999
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References: <199902150836.GAA11537@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> <Pine.OSF.3.95.990215021500.13979A-100000@odin.cair.du.edu> <199902151513.NAA13716@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:46:32 GMT
From: mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <199902151513.NAA13716@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Subject: Re: The month names once more
Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br> wrote:
>
> > [Annette:] There is no "p" sound in arabic. Closest is "b".
> > There is also no "v".
>
>Thanks! That still doesn't imply that the Iberian "b" in "abril" is due to
>Arab influence, but somehow makes it a bit more likely...
It's certainly not Arab influence, it's the normal development of
Latin intervocalic -p- (including -pr-) in Portuguese, Spanish,
Catalan and some Occitanian dialects (namely those where v > b).
Also Sardinian. French and North Italian have -vr-, South
Italian and Romanian mostly maintain -pr- (although we have
abbrile in Naples). Central Italian (toscano), as always, shows
a mix of -p(r)- and -v(r)- [in this case: aprile].
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl
Amsterdam
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:48:15 -0800
From: jguy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The month names once more
Rene wrote:
> An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
> Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
> as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
> been suggested once.
Quite some time ago now, someone on this list said that it was
slavic, more precisely, Czech if I remember. Russian, on the
other hand, has lost the "m" everywhere: okt'abr', nojabr',
dek'abr'
> So who could have written these month names, and where and when
> did he do it?
Someone who lived in Prague (aka Praha), where, nowadays, I hear,
they speak Czech?
With my tongue not quite in my Czeech...
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:23:32 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
I wrote:
> > An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
> >
> > Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
> > as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
> > been suggested once.
And Stolfi quotes the OED (this particular page being publicly
visible):
> [...] Med.L. had also the analogical form Octember, -imber,
> 13th c. F. Octembre, Pr. Octembre.] ^^^^^^^^
> ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
>
> "Pr." is Provençal, I assume.
And Med.L. is medieval Latin, I presume, so there goes my "certainly
isn't Latin" :-)
About the Spanish Abril and the Arabic 'bryl:
Indeed, Arabic doesn't have a p, but letters have been added to
the Arabic alphabet to use it for other langauges. I think there
are several versions which do have a p (e.g. Malay, though it is
no longer used). In any case, here this simply wasn't necessary.
Here's a transcription of a piece of Portuguese written in the
Arabic script(16th C). As far as I can tell, there are no
additions to the Arabic alphabet. I did not transcribe from the
Arabic script. It was given as below. I cannot tell whether this
is in some way an 'official' transliteration. The x represents
the 'shin', reflecting how the 's' is pronounced in Portuguese.
Juro bor Deeux, bor Deeux, ber Deeux qiriyador do ceu e da
tera e bor xuwax xirconxtanxiyax fijifeyix e bolo-meu
borfeta mofomede almoctafa qe-berego e firmou e moxtoro a
fe qe-nox otrox Morox e Xalamowix qeremox e bolo w Alcoro
(etc)
Some of the vowels (i,y,w) are actually written small, in
superscript.
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal then wrote (about Abril):
> It's certainly not Arab influence, it's the normal development of
> Latin intervocalic -p- (including -pr-) in Portuguese, Spanish,
> Catalan and some Occitanian dialects (namely those where v > b).
> Also Sardinian. French and North Italian have -vr-, South
> Italian and Romanian mostly maintain -pr- (although we have
> abbrile in Naples). Central Italian (toscano), as always, shows
> a mix of -p(r)- and -v(r)- [in this case: aprile].
So our forerunners are medieval or vulgar Latin, the Iberian languages,
some Occitan and/or Provencal. I wonder if the use of 'y' in 'may' and
'yony' indicates anything else. Again, it doesn't seem very much like
Latin to me, but I'll except all evidence to the contrary.
Cheers, Rene
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:02:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de> (Zandbergen@t-online.de)
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
Rene wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> > > An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
> > >
> > > Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
> > > as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
> > > been suggested once.
>
> And Stolfi quotes the OED (this particular page being publicly
> visible):
>
> > [...] Med.L. had also the analogical form Octember, -imber,
> > 13th c. F. Octembre, Pr. Octembre.] ^^^^^^^^
> > ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> >
> > "Pr." is Provençal, I assume.
>
> And Med.L. is medieval Latin, I presume, so there goes my "certainly
> isn't Latin" :-)
What's somewhat disturbing is the presence of a 13th c. French or
Provencal spelling for October in what, by various other features,
appears to be a late 15th century mss.
Could the month names have been written in by someone trying to
give an air of spurious age to the Mss?
Karl
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References: <m10C8I0-0003SZC@fwd14.btx.dtag.de> <199902150836.GAA11537@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de>
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:30:33 GMT
From: mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene) wrote:
>So our forerunners are medieval or vulgar Latin, the Iberian languages,
>some Occitan and/or Provencal. I wonder if the use of 'y' in 'may' and
>'yony' indicates anything else. Again, it doesn't seem very much like
>Latin to me, but I'll except all evidence to the contrary.
'may' and 'yony' kind of exclude Latin (-us), Portuguese and
Spanish (-o). Catalan (maig /madZ/ and juny /Zun~/) and
Occitan/Provencal are still possible (as well as a number of
Germanic and Slavic lgs.).
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl
Amsterdam
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:12:59 -0700 (MST)
From: "Annette M. Stroud" <astroud@du.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Rene wrote:
> About the Spanish Abril and the Arabic 'bryl:
>
> Indeed, Arabic doesn't have a p, but letters have been added to
> the Arabic alphabet to use it for other langauges. I think there
> are several versions which do have a p (e.g. Malay, though it is
> no longer used). In any case, here this simply wasn't necessary.
I don't know when the later letters were added. The letter for "p" is
just the "b" with three dots rather than one under the curve. The letter
for "v" is the letter "f" with three dots over it rather than one. But my
impression was that these were rather recent additions, that outright
substitutions were used before they were added.
> Here's a transcription of a piece of Portuguese written in the
> Arabic script(16th C). As far as I can tell, there are no
> additions to the Arabic alphabet. I did not transcribe from the
> Arabic script. It was given as below. I cannot tell whether this
> is in some way an 'official' transliteration. The x represents
> the 'shin', reflecting how the 's' is pronounced in Portuguese.
>
> Juro bor Deeux, bor Deeux, ber Deeux qiriyador do ceu e da
> tera e bor xuwax xirconxtanxiyax fijifeyix e bolo-meu
> borfeta mofomede almoctafa qe-berego e firmou e moxtoro a
> fe qe-nox otrox Morox e Xalamowix qeremox e bolo w Alcoro
> (etc)
>
> Some of the vowels (i,y,w) are actually written small, in
> superscript.
>
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal then wrote (about Abril):
>
> > It's certainly not Arab influence,
I know that Arabic is my favorite, and I am biased toward it, but I don't
see that what Miguel says following proves that there was no Arabic
influence in the Voynich month names. It is just an alternate
explanation. (Okay and it might be the easiest. Shaved by Occam's razor
again.)
> >it's the normal development of
> > Latin intervocalic -p- (including -pr-) in Portuguese, Spanish,
> > Catalan and some Occitanian dialects (namely those where v > b).
> > Also Sardinian. French and North Italian have -vr-, South
> > Italian and Romanian mostly maintain -pr- (although we have
> > abbrile in Naples). Central Italian (toscano), as always, shows
> > a mix of -p(r)- and -v(r)- [in this case: aprile].
Annette
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 03:54:27 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
> [Karl:] What's somewhat disturbing is the presence of a 13th c.
> French or Provencal spelling for October in what, by various
> other features, appears to be a late 15th century mss.
Well, the OED quote may be parsed "(13th c. French) or Provençal"
not necessarily as "13th c. (French or Provençal)"
> [Rene:] Here's a transcription of a piece of Portuguese written
> in the Arabic script(16th C).
Fun! In fact, the phonetics is quite accurate, except of the p->b and
a the "Xr" consonant clusters, and even I can read most of it fairly
easily. For the curious, I have appended the modern spelling and the
translation at the end.
> Some of the vowels (i,y,w) are actually written small, in
> superscript.
Hm... like that "c"-like mark over the "t" in "septembr?"
BTW, I think I read "siep..." rather than "sep..."
Miguel says that the "b" in "abril" could mean
Portuguese
Spanish
Catalan
some Occitanian dialects
Sardinian
Neapolitan
Now Neapolitan is intriguing, since the manuscript that Rene
offered as a possible model for the biological section
(the "De Balneis Puteolanis") was writen in Naples...
On the other hand "octembre" could be
Serbian
Bulgarian
Old Russian
Greek
Romanian
Provençal
or almost anywhere (a natural analogy with "september" etc.)
Not much of an intersection 8-(
All the best,
--stolfi
The Portuguese-in-Arabic text:
Juro bor Deeux, bor Deeux, ber Deeux qiriyador do ceu e da
Juro por Deus, por Deus, por Deus criador do céu e da
I swear by God, by God, by God creator of heaven and of
tera e bor xuwax xirconxtanxiyax fijifeyix e bolo-meu
terra e por suas circunstâncias visíveis e pelo meu
earth and for his circumstances(*) visible and by my
borfeta mofomede almoctafa qe- berego e firmou e moxtoro a
profeta Maomé al-Mustafa(?) que pregou e firmou e mostrou a
prophet Mohammed al-Mustafa(?) who taught and consolidated and showed the
fe qe- nox otrox Morox e Xalamowix qeremox e bolo w Alcoro
fé que nós outros Mouros e Salamões(?) cremos e pelo ? Alcorão
faith (in)which we Moors and Suleimans(?) believe and by the ? Quran
(*) this word presumably meant "manifestations" back then...
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:35:35 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> Miguel says that the "b" in "abril" could mean
>
> Portuguese
> Spanish
> Catalan
> some Occitanian dialects
> Sardinian
> Neapolitan
>
> Now Neapolitan is intriguing, since the manuscript that Rene
> offered as a possible model for the biological section
> (the "De Balneis Puteolanis") was writen in Naples...
It was Brian Smith who made that connection.
> On the other hand "octembre" could be
>
> Serbian
> Bulgarian
> Old Russian
> Greek
> Romanian
> Provençal
> or almost anywhere (a natural analogy with "september" etc.)
>
> Not much of an intersection 8-(
Note that Provencal is an Occitanian dialect so we have the ideal
intersection with one member :-)
Little joke alert:
Given that 'Augst' seems to be German, we might conclude
that the month names are written in a polyglot tongue, somewhere
in S. France (Occitania) in the 13th Century.
Annette Stroud wrote:
>> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal then wrote (about Abril):
>>
>> > It's certainly not Arab influence,
>I know that Arabic is my favorite, and I am biased toward it, but I don't
>see that what Miguel says following proves that there was no Arabic
>influence in the Voynich month names.
I'm sure that Miguel was talking about a possible Arab influence on the
Spanish change from April > Abril, not the VMs.
Cheers, Rene
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Content-Length: 817
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:00:17 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <36CA5343.3D7@alphalink.com.au>
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
> [Jacques:] That is strange, the occasional confusion between e and o, viz:
>
> > Juro bor Deeux, bor Deeux, ber Deeux qiriyador do ceu e da
> > Juro por Deus, por Deus, por Deus criador do céu e da
> ^ ^ ^
Part of the confusion may be in the Portuguese itself, not in the
Arabic transcription. The modern "por" was replacing the Latin
"per" by about that time, and the contractions "pelo" and "polo"
were both in current use.
Leafing through my obbligatory Camões (~1570) I quickly found all four
spellings. Of course "polo" would be more logical but "pelo" is the
form that survived. Of course.
BTW, Camões also writes "pera" ("for") where modern Portuguese uses
"para". Some dialects still pronounce it as "pera".
--stolfi
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:15:25 1999
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["1210" "Tue" "16" "February" "1999" "20:29:55" " +0000" "Jorge Stolfi" "stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br" nil nil "Titillating tidbit: x -> s? " "^From:" nil nil "2" "99021620:29:55" nil (number " " mark " Jorge Stolfi 1999- 2-16 1210 \"Titillating tidbit: x -> s? \"\n") nil]
nil)
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<199902150836.GAA11537@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
<m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich
In-Reply-To: <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Titillating tidbit: x -> s?
> [Rene, about the Portuguese-in-Arabic sample:] The x represents
> the 'shin', reflecting how the 's' is pronounced in Portuguese.
>
> Juro bor Deeux, bor Deeux, ber Deeux qiriyador do ceu e da
Indeed the final "s" tends to be pronounced "sh" in Portugal.
Here in Brazil it is the main characteristic of the Rio accent.
Just to stay in topic, consider the third line of page f116v, which
has been transcribed as
+
six+marix+morix+vix+abta+maria+-
As we know far too well, these words can't be matched to any language.
However if we read "x" as "s" and "b" as "p" we get
+
sis+maris+moris+vis+apta+maria+-
Which may not make any sense either, but at least the words are
all common Latin words...
And if that is not enough, here is what I got when I asked
Altavista for "sis NEAR maris":
http://eden.vmg.co.uk/baebes/salvanos.html
Salva Nos, Stella Maris
Anon. Latin 13th Century.
Latin
...
Sis nobis salutaris,
Imperatrix celorum;
Salva Nos, Stella Maris
et regina celorum.
...
"Stella Maris", the "Star of the Seas", is of course the Virgin Mary,
"Maria" in Latin...
All the best,
--stolfi
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:15:30 1999
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Content-Length: 1210
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:44:53 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Titillating tidbit: x -> s?
> [Rene, about the Portuguese-in-Arabic sample:] The x represents
> the 'shin', reflecting how the 's' is pronounced in Portuguese.
>
> Juro bor Deeux, bor Deeux, ber Deeux qiriyador do ceu e da
Indeed the final "s" tends to be pronounced "sh" in Portugal.
Here in Brazil it is the main characteristic of the Rio accent.
Just to stay in topic, consider the third line of page f116v, which
has been transcribed as
+
six+marix+morix+vix+abta+maria+-
As we know far too well, these words can't be matched to any language.
However if we read "x" as "s" and "b" as "p" we get
+
sis+maris+moris+vis+apta+maria+-
Which may not make any sense either, but at least the words are
all common Latin words...
And if that is not enough, here is what I got when I asked
Altavista for "sis NEAR maris":
http://eden.vmg.co.uk/baebes/salvanos.html
Salva Nos, Stella Maris
Anon. Latin 13th Century.
Latin
...
Sis nobis salutaris,
Imperatrix celorum;
Salva Nos, Stella Maris
et regina celorum.
...
"Stella Maris", the "Star of the Seas", is of course the Virgin Mary,
"Maria" in Latin...
All the best,
--stolfi
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:15:40 1999
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Content-Length: 492
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:13:49 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <199902162244.UAA23672@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Subject: Re: Titillating tidbit: x -> s?
One more "ding!": the spelling of april on f70v1 and f71r is
definitely closer to "abiril" than to "abril". Now note how
consonant+R clusters are transcribed in Rene's Portuguese-in-Arabic
example:
CRIador -> QIRIyador
PREgou -> BEREgo
mosTROu -> moxTORO
cremos -> QEREmox
Seems too good to be true...
Another almost certainly irrelevant tidbit on the b -> p line:
"Oladapo", "Oladape" etc. is a common Nigerian name...
--stolfi
"Et canis in somnis leporis vestigia latrat"
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:15:41 1999
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Reply-To: mcv@wxs.nl
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References: <m10C8I0-0003SZC@fwd14.btx.dtag.de> <199902150836.GAA11537@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> <m10CVUK-0003IXC@fwd08.btx.dtag.de> <199902162244.UAA23672@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> <199902170013.WAA24280@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:34:58 GMT
From: mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <199902170013.WAA24280@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Subject: Re: Titillating tidbit: x -> s?
Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br> wrote:
>One more "ding!": the spelling of april on f70v1 and f71r is
>definitely closer to "abiril" than to "abril". Now note how
>consonant+R clusters are transcribed in Rene's Portuguese-in-Arabic
>example:
>
> CRIador -> QIRIyador
> PREgou -> BEREgo
> mosTROu -> moxTORO
> cremos -> QEREmox
But, given that Arabic has no vowel letters as such, how was that
actually written in Arabic? Rene' mentioned superscripts
(vowel diacritics?), with the non-superscript vowels presumably
written using alif (a), waw (u,o) and yod (e,i). How was it done
in these words? [If anybody's interested, such inserted vowels
are technically known as anaptyctic or svarabhakti vowels].
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl
Amsterdam
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:15:45 1999
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<199902161700.PAA21835@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <199902161700.PAA21835@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Subject: Image of the month names
I have posted a pencil reproduction of all the zodiac month names,
for the benefit of those who haven't got a copy of the VMS:
http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/99-02-16-month-names/
Hope it helps,
--stolfi
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:16:00 1999
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<Pine.OSF.3.95.990215021500.13979A-100000@odin.cair.du.edu> <199902151513.NAA13716@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:09:02 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Voynich Author(s)
Jorge Stolfi wrote:
>
> PS. It would be handy to have a standard nickname for the VMS author,
> just as we have "VMS" for the book and "Voynichese" for the language
> and script. Any suggestions?
Until recently, we assumed that the VMs had two authors, A and B.
We're not quite so sure now. If there's a single author, how about
"Abe", the nickname of Abraham Lincoln, the President of the USA during
the Civil War. That's pronounced /eib/, for those who don't know.
With tongue in cheek,
Dennis
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:16:03 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:10:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <36CA32CE.5BC8@micro-net.com> (message from Dennis on Tue, 16 Feb
1999 21:09:02 -0600)
Subject: Re: Voynich Author(s)
Dennis wrote:
> Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> >
> > PS. It would be handy to have a standard nickname for the VMS author,
> > just as we have "VMS" for the book and "Voynichese" for the language
> > and script. Any suggestions?
>
> Until recently, we assumed that the VMs had two authors, A and B.
> We're not quite so sure now. If there's a single author, how about
> "Abe", the nickname of Abraham Lincoln, the President of the USA during
> the Civil War. That's pronounced /eib/, for those who don't know.
Surely "A" and "B" must be Alice and Bob, the two slackers from the
crypto literature who spend all day playing poker over the telephone.
Exactly the shifty types who'd write something like the Voynich.
Karl
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:16:07 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:32:59 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <199902161700.PAA21835@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Subject: Image of the month names
I have posted a pencil reproduction of all the zodiac month names,
for the benefit of those who haven't got a copy of the VMS:
http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/99-02-16-month-names/
Hope it helps,
--stolfi
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:27:31 -0800
From: jguy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The month names once more (fwd)
Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> The Portuguese-in-Arabic text:
[snip]
That is strange, the occasional confusion between e and o, viz:
> Juro bor Deeux, bor Deeux, ber Deeux qiriyador do ceu e da
> Juro por Deus, por Deus, por Deus criador do céu e da
^ ^ ^
> tera e bor xuwax xirconxtanxiyax fijifeyix e bolo-meu
> terra e por suas circunstâncias visíveis e pelo meu
^
> fe qe- nox otrox Morox e Xalamowix qeremox e bolo w Alcoro
> fé que nós outros Mouros e Salamões(?) cremos e pelo ? Alcorão
^
Remember what I found about the frequency of occurrences of e and o
(EVA) in
Currier's A and B languages? Mind you, the e/o alternance is found in
many
totally unrelated languages all over the world, from English (EIIR's
English
vs Scots), to Japanese, Mota (an Austronesian language) and many more.
So it probably means nothing at all. Sigh.
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:16:29 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:46:32 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Arabic, Portuguese, crosses and Dee
Because of the interest in the 'Portuguese in Arabic', I include
the whole text below, with the superscript vowels in upper case
and originally-upper-case letters in lower case:
juramento qe-faz o turco cando comete alguWa gArande coja
juro bor deeux, bor deeux, ber deeux qIriYador do ceu e da
tera e bor xuWax xirconxtanxiYax fijifeYix e YinfijifeYix e bolo-meu
borfeta mofomede almoctafa qe-bErego e firmou e moxtOro a
fe qe-nox otrox morox e xalamoWix qEremox e bolo-Walcoro
e Yo-quWal esta exqIrito en arabigo a fe qe-nox otrox temox e
bolo-xalteiro de dafi e bolox efanjelox de jesu qIrixto e
bolox cento e vinte e quWatro borfetas de deeux de qe adao foi
o birmeiro e bola alma do benino meu badre e bola fida de
meux filox e bola mina cabeca e bola exbada qe-eu jinxo eu
bormeto de fazer tal coja.
A few vowels have a superscript bar (not shown here), the 'c's
in almoctafa and cabeca (2nd one) have a cedilla and two 'n's
were in italics (xircoNxtanxiYax and efaNgelos).
I'll also scan the Arabic original (hopefully it comes out
readable) and post it on the geocities site tomorrow. The above
text has already been 'regularised', in the sense that 'w' has
been converted to 'o' or 'u' as appropriate, and same with 'y'
to 'e' or 'i'.
As for the plusses in michiton etc, there is yet another possibility:
if the two lines above 'aror sheey' are a tentative translation
of some part of a VMs page by a later owner, these could reflect:
- the markers in between words, like e.g. on f67v1, f69r
- the stars as on f68r1 or a zodiac page
- tubes between labels as in the bio pages, e.g. f77r
And here's part of the text along the perimeter of a circular
diagram once drawn by Dee, in the 'Libellus Veneris Nigro Sacer':
+ Mi+chael + AGLA + Uri+el + ALPHA + Geb+riel + OMEGA + Raph+ael + ON
+ Joan+nes + JESUS + Lu+cas * NAZARENUS + Ma+ttheus + REX + Mar+cus + JUDEORUM
+ TETRAGRAMMATON + JEHOVA + ELOHIM + ADONAI
This might be an example of what Jacques meant, but there are a lot of
crosses...
FWIW,
Rene
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:08:50 -0200 (EDT)
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <m10DDrc-0003RgC@fwd06.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Portuguese in Arabic: translation
> [Rene:] Because of the interest in the 'Portuguese in Arabic', I include
> the whole text below
Thanks! Just for the record, here is my reading (in modern Portuguese
spelling) and the English translation:
> juramento qe- faz o turco cando comete alguWa gArande coja
juramento que faz o turco(0) quando comete(1) alguma grande cousa
swearing that makes the Turk when (he)commits some big thing
> juro bor deeux, bor deeux, ber deeux qIriYador do ceu e da
juro por Deus, por Deus, por Deus criador do céu e da
I swear by God, by God, by God creator of heaven and of
> tera e bor xuWax xirconxtanxiYax fijifeYix e YinfijifeYix e bolo- meu
terra e por suas circunstâncias(2) visíveis e invisíveis e pelo(3) meu
earth and by his circumstances visible and invisible and by my
> borfeta mofomede almoctafa qe- bErego e firmou e moxtOro a
profeta Mahomede al-Mustafá que pregou e firmou(4) e mostrou a
prophet Mahomed al-Mustafa who taught and confirmed and showed the
> fe qe- nox otrox morox e xalamoWix qEremox e bolo- Walcoro
fé que nós outros mouros e salamões(?) cremos e pelo Alcorão
faith (in)which we Moors and Suleimans believe and by the Quran
> e Yo-quWal esta exqIrito en arabigo a fe qe- nox otrox temox e
em o qual está escrito em arábico a fé que nós outros temos e
in which is written in Arabic the faith which we have and
> bolo- xalteiro de dafi e bolox efanjelox de jesu qIrixto e
pelo Saltério de Davi e pelos Evangelhos de Jesus Cristo e
by the Psalter of David and by the Gospels of Jesus Christ and
> bolox cento e vinte e quWatro borfetas de deeux de qe adao foi
pelos cento e vinte e quatro Profetas de Deus de que Adão foi
by the hundred and twenty four Prophets of God of whom Adam was
> o birmeiro e bola alma do benino meu badre e bola fida de
o primeiro e pela alma do benino(?) meu padre e pela vida de
the first and by the soul of the blessed(?) my father and by the life of
> meux filox e bola mina cabeca e bola exbada qe- eu jinxo
meus filhos e pela minha cabeça e pela espada que eu cinjo
my children and by my head and by the sword that I carry
> eu bormeto de fazer tal coja.
eu prometo de dazer tal cousa(5).
I promise to do such thing.
(Whew! Who can doubt it after *that*!)
(0) Even today "turco" is the popular term for all middle eastern
people (other than the Jews).
(1) "comete" has now lost the sense of "promise", which it retains in English.
(2) "circunstâncias" presumably meant "manifestations" way then.
(3) "pelo" = "por + o" was spelled (and probably pronounced) "polo" way then.
(3) "firmou" now means "made firm", "consolidated", strenghtened",
or "signed"; but way then it may have meant also "confirmed" or "affirmed"
(4) The "j" in "coja" and the "s" in "cousa" actually sound quite similar
in Portuguese, especially in the dialects that pronounce "s" as "sh".
> [Rene:] with the superscript vowels in upper case
Quite a few of those superscript wovels seem to be extra vowels
inserted into the groups cr/br/gr/tr. (I keep thinking of that "abiril"...)
The word "alguma" was often written "algua" with a tilde over the "u". Perhaps
the "W" in "alguWa" on the first line is actually a tilde?
Ditto for the first "Y" on line 6.
> A few vowels have a superscript bar (not shown here)
Those could be tildes, denoting nasal sounds or "m/n"s.
I would expect tildes over the first "e" of line 6,
the final "o" of "Walcoro" and the "ao" of "adao".
> the 'c's in almoctafa and cabeca (2nd one) have a cedilla
The Portuguese "ç" has the sound of "s" (soft), and
indeed those two "c"s have that sound.
> and two 'n's were in italics (xircoNxtanxiYax and efaNgelos).
I have no idea why...
All the best,
--stolfi
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:37:16 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: The month names once more
Dear all,
the month names written on the zodiac pages have been discussed
quite a few times already. Not unexpectedly, there is not much
agreement about their origin. The first few are quite readable,
and read:
Mars, Abril, May, Yony
Then there is the very German 'Augst'
An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
been suggested once.
Whether the month names were written by the original writer or
a later owner, it should say something about the location of the
VMs at some point in time - prior to its appearance in Prague, I
would say.
It doesn't fit with Voynich's scenario, where the VMs was located
mostly in England and Bohemia. If the VMs originates from N. Italy
of Germany, then it must have travelled a bit before it reached
Prague. Unless a N. Italian dialect can be identified that has these
month names. Or we postulate that the writer, in N. Italy, was of
another origin.
Interestingly, I read in a book by Paul Kunitsch, who is a recognised
expert in Arabic star lore, that the following month names were
used normally by astronomers in the Arabic West:
ynyr, fbryr, mrs, 'bryl, m'yh, ywnyh, ywlyh, 'gst, stnbr, 'ktwbr,
nwnbr, dgnbr.
This is how they were printed in the book, except that the 's' in august
and september have a caret (hacek) above them and so does
the 'g' in december. The quote represents the glotal stop.
Obviously, in the Mss that the book describes, this would have been
written in the Arabic script.
The only one that does not seem to fit is the 'octembre'.
So who could have written these month names, and where and when
did he do it?
Anybody know a specialist in mediaeval Romance languages?
Cheers, Rene
From VM Tue Apr 13 09:14:38 1999
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["3915" "Mon" "15" "February" "1999" "06:35:34" " +0000" "Jorge Stolfi" "stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br" nil nil "Re: The month names once more" "^From:" nil nil "2" "99021506:35:34" nil (number " " mark " Jorge Stolfi 1999- 2-15 3915 \"Re: The month names once more\"\n") nil]
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene)
In-Reply-To: <m10C8I0-0003SZC@fwd14.btx.dtag.de>
Subject: Re: The month names once more
> The first few are quite readable, and read:
> Mars, Abril, May, Yony
They certainly are names of months, and that is how I
read them, too.
But some of the letters can be read only by assuming that the word is
a month name, so that the question is merely choosing between a few
"plausible" spellings.
For example the word on f70v1 could also be read "abcril" and that on
f71r could be "ab'rab" or "abirib" or many other things. The reading
"abril" is only a fair compromise between what we expect to read and
what is really there on the paper...
On f71v, I see a (round) circumflex over the "y" in "May"; is it noise?
It is not present on f72r1.
The final "y" of "yony" seems to be closed at the top.
On f72r3 I think I see a double "l" and an "y" at the end,
perhaps "yoll*y".
> Then there is the very German 'Augst'
I see a dot over the first leg of the "u"; is that noise?
On f72v2 I read "s#*p$@b^" where "#*$@^" are illegible. The "#*" seems
too big for an "e". The "$" could be a "t", okay. There is a short
crescent-shaped mark over the "@", and a longer stroke over both, so I
am willing to grant that the "@" could be "en" or "em". The "^" is an
L-shaped superscript, which could be an abbreviation for "er".
> An oddity is the use of 'Octembre' for October.
>
> Exactly which language this is has not been determined as far
> as I know. It certainly isn't Latin, but I think Provencal has
> been suggested once.
Indeed I once found through Altavista this sample entry from the
Oxford English Dictionary (no longer on-line) that says:
October (ktb(r)). Also 37 -bre; in 7 sometimes abbrev. 8bre,
8ber. [In OE. and mod.Eng. a. L. October, -obrem, f. octo eight
(orig. the eighth month of the year); in ME. a. F. Octobre (1303 in
Hatz.-Darm.), ad. L. Octobrem, which supplanted the popular
OF. oitovre. Med.L. had also the analogical form Octember, -imber,
13th c. F. Octembre, Pr. Octembre.] ^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
"Pr." is Provençal, I assume.
> Whether the month names were written by the original writer or
> a later owner
I propose that the person who wrote the month names is the same
who wrote the "michiton" lines on f116v. The letter shapes
and the handwriting seem to match, don't you thinks so?
I propose also (somewhat less convincingly)
that the person who wrote the "michiton" lines was the author.
That is because the words <oror sheey> on f116v seem to be part of
the text, implying that the writer of that sentence knew
Voynichese.
> it should say something about the location of the
> VMs at some point in time - prior to its appearance in Prague, I
> would say.
> It doesn't fit with Voynich's scenario, where the VMs was located
> mostly in England and Bohemia.
The German-looking letters and the "augst" seem compatible with Bohemia,
next door to Germany. (Wasn't Rudolph more German than Czech?)
> Unless a N. Italian dialect can be identified that has these
> month names.
Seems unlikely....
> Or we postulate that the writer, in N. Italy, was of
> another origin.
The "b" in "abril" seems characteristic of Spanish and Portuguese.
> Interestingly, I read in a book by Paul Kunitsch, who is a recognised
> expert in Arabic star lore, that the following month names were
> used normally by astronomers in the Arabic West:
>
> ynyr, fbryr, mrs, 'bryl, m'yh, ywnyh, ywlyh, 'gst, stnbr, 'ktwbr,
> nwnbr, dgnbr.
Interesting!
The Arabs ruled Spain and Portugal for several centuries, and left
their mark on the language---such as a couple hundred words
beginning with "al-". I wonder if the change from Latin "april.." to
Spanish/Portuguese "abril" was also part of that influence?
Or was it the other way around---the "'bryl" above were borrowed from
...
All the best,
--stolfi
From VM Wed Feb 24 21:58:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:13:13 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: re: Zodiac and herbal pages
I cannot precisely pinpoint what influenced my first impressions of the
Voynich, but I do remember well that when I first looked at the zodiac pages
I was reminded of lunar calendars, and not solar calendars. I think perhaps
it reminded me of the stories of folk herbalism and the 'barefoot doctors'
of the past and present. A lunar day is not equal to a solar day, and a
lunar month can vary as much as four days, depending on how you count the
cycle. There are months with as many as three days of full moon, and other
months when the visual moon is still waxing one day, and visually waning
the next, never reaching a full state. Should these states of the moon by
counted by the old calendar and matched with the appropriate zodiac, one
might even be able to deduce the possible years in which the zodiac was
drawn. My impression is that these drawings are an old-time farmer's
almanac.
What struck me odd about the herbal pages is that most of the plants are
drawn in the seeding stage, and not the normally depicted stage where the
plant may be picked for consumption. Considering the age of the drawings,
this also reminds me of the old style remedies. Plants were to be picked in
certain stages of development and solar/lunar influence for different
effects on the body. It was reasoned that the plants physically changed
form from one stage to another, and therefore they must also have changed
essence, which was influenced by the sun, the moon and the planets. If you
wish to see just one of many very Voynich-like plants in person, let your
artichoke go to seed. You would never identify it as an artichoke if you
did not know to begin with.
If the Voynich zodiac is indeed based on a lunar year, there is much to be
considered in its meaning. While most traditional medicines were gathered
from plants during daylight hours, a lunar calendar means something quite
different in folk medicine. The gathering of medicinal aids for fertility,
sexual stimulation, and contraception was typically a nocturnal pursuit.
Love potions and other magical medicines were also gathered at night. The
components were usually either parts of very small seedlings or portions of
plants that had received the full lunar influence and went to seed
themselves.
Granted these are untested impressions, but if they are correct, we are
dealing with a lunatic in the truest sense.
Regards, Rayman
From VM Wed Feb 24 21:58:38 1999
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["3668" "Thu" "14" "August" "1997" "17:29:09" "+0100" "Denis Mardle" "Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com" "<E0wz2hr-0000Yz-00@mail.btinternet.com>" nil "VMs Zodiac Statistics" "^Date:" nil nil "8" "97081416:29:09" nil nil nil]
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:29:09 +0100
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs Zodiac Statistics
From Denis Mardle 14 August 1997
Hello All
I have made a very interesting discovery that may be
new. It is certainly relevant and is completely independent
of codes, ciphers, languages etc. I am working with the
lengths of the labels in Voynich symbols including all the
'words' in the label if there are more than one. I will give
statistics later but the first important observation, only
evident by looking at the 10 Zodiac pages, is that the
figures ( mostly 'nymphs' ) are very unequally spaced.
Even more important the lengths of the labels between
figures have a very strong correlation with the lengths of the
available spaces ! Now this can have only three
explanations :-
A) The figures were drawn without knowing where the
labels would go ( or knowing the positions but not
the lengths ).
B) The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
for the total lengths. This meant splitting the 243 symbols
of Aries into two half months, similarly for the 228 of Taurus
and giving a full third circle for Cancer ( 236 symbols ).
C) The figures were drawn later.
Now C) is extremely unlikely as the later herbs and pots in the
Pharmaceutical section were not given labels. Also B) gives
severe problems with Gemini as one very small space could not
be used, probably because the label was too long, and this would
throw out the later labels from their 'pre-prepared' slots.
So - I strongly favour A) . This, however, almost certainly implies
that labels are put in to fill the avaiable space ( I suspect this also
in other sections, but we all need to check this point ) and my
conclusion is that the text has no relation to the illustrations !
I do admit that the Biological section is in a different hand/language
to every other section so text and illustrations were done by the
same person. I will also admit that the Zodiac section could have
been drawn and text written in parallel by the same person, but this
would be very tricky to get right. Is there any evidence for this last
thought ?
Now statistics. Column headers explained later.
(z) (s) (r)
(m) (t) (i)
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 17 18 1st 2nd 3rd
PSC 1 2 9 11 5 2 10 19 5.77
173 2
AR1 2 4 3 1 2 1 1 1 5 10 8.93
134 3
AR2 1 3 7 1 2 1 5 10 7.27
109 -
TA1 1 1 4 4 3 1 1 5 10 7.00
105 7
TA2 4 3 3 1 2 1 5 10 8.20
123 11
GEM 6 7 7 5 4 9 16 5 5.79
168 3
CNC 1 1 2 4 3 6 6 2 2 1 1 7 11 12 8.14
236 30
LEO 1 6 7 5 6 2 2 1 12 18 5.93
178 7
VIR 1 5 14 8 1 1 12 18 6.20
186 10
LIB 1 511 11 2 10 20 5.27
158 6
SCO 1 4 4 7 7 7 10 16 4 5.20
156 2
SGR 1 9 7 8 5 10 16 4 5.23
157 7
z = Zodiac sign s = symbol counts r = figure rings m = mean symbol
count t = total symbol count i = no. of symbol i's in t.
One could also measure label lengths and figure gaps but I'm not sure if
the copies are all to the same magnification.
Comments ?? Denis
From VM Wed Feb 24 21:58:40 1999
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["3774" "Fri" "15" "August" "1997" "01:38:26" " +0000" "Jorge Stolfi" "stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br" nil nil "Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics" "^From:" nil nil "8" "97081501:38:26" nil nil nil]
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Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: <@btinternet.com>
In-Reply-To: <E0wz2hr-0000Yz-00@mail.btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics
> Even more important the lengths of the labels between
> figures have a very strong correlation with the lengths of the
> available spaces ! Now this can have only three
> explanations :-
> A) The figures were drawn without knowing where the
> labels would go ( or knowing the positions but not
> the lengths ).
> B) The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
> lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
> for the total lengths. This meant splitting the 243 symbols
> of Aries into two half months, similarly for the 228 of Taurus
> and giving a full third circle for Cancer ( 236 symbols ).
> C) The figures were drawn later.
>
> Now C) is extremely unlikely as the later herbs and pots in the
> Pharmaceutical section were not given labels. Also B) gives
> severe problems with Gemini as one very small space could not
> be used, probably because the label was too long, and this would
> throw out the later labels from their 'pre-prepared' slots.
> So - I strongly favour A) . This, however, almost certainly implies
> that labels are put in to fill the avaiable space ( I suspect this also
> in other sections, but we all need to check this point ) and my
> conclusion is that the text has no relation to the illustrations !
> I will also admit that the Zodiac section could have
> been drawn and text written in parallel by the same person, but this
> would be very tricky to get right.
I do not have the photocopies of the VMs (yet 8-). But let me comment anyway:
Just because one section had figures and text made in a certain order,
it does not follow that the same order was followed in other sections.
It is quite possible that the order depends on the nature of the
drawings.
For instance, the herbal section has big plant drawings, whose shape
and location on the page is rather fixed (stems have to be straight,
etc.), but with large blank spaces; whereas the text is not tied to
any particular location. So, for that section, it makes sense to
draw the plant first, and then write the text anywhere it would fit.
In the astrological diagrams, however, the labels have to be placed
in very specific positions with respect to the diagram. On the other
hand, the geometry of the diagram can be broadly adjusted to make the text
fit. The right way to proceed would then be to sketch first the
whole thing, diagram and labels, on a blackboard or a separate sheet
of "paper"; erase and redraw and fiddle until everything fits
together nicely; and then copy the whole thing into the book, with
the right spacings and sizes.
In this second scenario, it doesn't matter which was drawn first,
labels or diagram.
Another possibility to keep in mind is that the labels may well have
been abbreviated so as to fit the available space. We do that often
enough ourselves, e.g. when writing column headers in tables ---
"Total", "Tot", etc.
Does this make sense?
> (z) (s) (r)
> (m) (t) (i)
> 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 17 18 1st 2nd 3rd
>
> PSC 1 2 9 11 5 2 10 19 5.77
> 173 2
> AR1 2 4 3 1 2 1 1 1 5 10 8.93
> 134 3
> AR2 1 3 7 1 2 1 5 10 7.27
> 109 -
> TA1 1 1 4 4 3 1 1 5 10 7.00
> 105 7
The alignment got all messed up. What font are you using?
--stolfi
From VM Wed Feb 24 21:58:42 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:37:22 +0200
From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics
Dear all
Denis' comments about the zodiac labels deserve
some attention, as the notion that the labels
might be 'meaningless filler' could be one explanation
of his observations, as he also points out.
Unfortunately, the table at the bottom came to me
with the lines wrapped and alignment lost so I could
not really understand these.
Anyway, Denis wrote:
>... the first important observation ... is that the
> figures ( mostly 'nymphs' ) are very unequally spaced.
> Even more important the lengths of the labels between
> figures have a very strong correlation with the lengths of the
> available spaces ! Now this can have only three
> explanations :-
> A) The figures were drawn without knowing where the
> labels would go ( or knowing the positions but not
> the lengths ).
This would exclude that this section of the Ms is
a fair copy, an issue that was never resolved, but
should be considered. There are some indications for
and against the 'fair copy' theory in the other sections.
Perhaps we may even differentiate between the first
few pages (Pisces to the Tauri) and the later pages
(Gemini and ff.) The first group are drawn and written
with more attention. These are also the ones with the
cans (the transition being in Taurus-2 (dark). Perhaps
the later figures give originals and the earlier ones
are fair copies, with additional embellishments...
> B) The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
> lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
> for the total lengths.
I like this one best. One may even assume that the figures
and the text were done at the same time.
> C) The figures were drawn later.
> Now C) is extremely unlikely...
Agreed. Let's assume these pages were drafted up as follows
(leaving open the question of whether we are looking at
the drafts or fair copies):
First the circles were drawn. These are pretty circular and
concentric. Space was left for the circular text. Now, we're
faced with a similar mystery as brought up by Denis: the
text always fits exactly!!!
The zodiac emblem was done either first or last.
The nymphs were drawn from the inside ring outwards, with
the text added either immediately or afterwards. The text
is written to the right of the nymph. I think there are
two possibilities for the order: either starting near
00:00 and going clockwise or starting near 09:00 and going
against the clock, this from observing where the nymphs are
more cramped together (especially the inner circle of
Sagittarius).
> Also B) gives severe problems with Gemini as one very
> small space could not be used...
There is one nymph in Gemini without a label. I would
favour the idea that this was a simple oversight. There is
also one nymph without a star somewhere...
> So - I strongly favour A) . This, however, almost
> certainly implies that labels are put in to fill the
> avaliable space ( I suspect this also in other sections,
> but we all need to check this point ) and my conclusion
> is that the text has no relation to the illustrations !
I would 'like' that the text belongs with the illustrations
and perhaps this biases my views. But I think the Pisces
page is a counterexample to Denis' observations. The
labels are generally of a similar length. In the inner
circle they do not fill all the space available. In the
outer circle (especially near the top) they are crammed in,
sometimes even writing two halves above each other.
> I do admit that the Biological section is in a different
> hand/language to every other section so text and
> illustrations were done by the same person.
Certainly a different 'language', though it is less different
from some sections (stars) than from some others.
About the hands: I am not all that sure. We have always
stuck to the term 'language' to differentiate between
A and B, even though this is perhaps not the best name
(as Currier also admitted). With 'hands' we can do the same,
but the idea that different persons were involved
should not be taken for granted. The differences are
obvious at first sight, but whenever experts were asked,
they said: one person.
I fully agree with Denis that text and drawings (in the
astro, cosmo and bio sections at least) were probably done
by one and the same person.
> I will also admit that the Zodiac section could have
> been drawn and text written in parallel by the same person,
> but this would be very tricky to get right.
Not tricky if it's a copy of some draft or sketch.
> Is there any evidence for this last thought ?
The last few diagrams seem like drafts. If they were
done against the clock, they could well have been drawn
in parallel, with a general adjustment being made once
the composer got near the end of each circle.
Further comments much appreciated...
Rene
From VM Wed Feb 24 21:58:48 1999
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["3234" "Sat" "16" "August" "1997" "15:25:33" "+0100" "Denis Mardle" "Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com" nil nil "Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics and f75v" "^Date:" nil nil "8" "97081614:25:33" nil nil nil]
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Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:25:33 +0100
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics and f75v
>From Denis 16 August 1997
Rene says
<Unfortunately, the table at the bottom came to me
<with the lines wrapped and alignment lost so I could
<not really understand these.
Sorry about that - I've made them clearer at the end of this
message.
He also says,
> > B) The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
> > lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
> > for the total lengths.
>I like this one best. One may even assume that the figures
>and the text were done at the same time.
On reflection I have to agree with Rene, even though I have
reservations. How to settle the question of fair copy versus
draft copy is clearly impotant, but unsettled.
I intend to look carefully at all the pages/folios that have or
should have 'labels' to see what other evidence I can find.
I am a bit puzzled by the ten 'nymphs' on f75v which have
two rows of apparent labels above which do not have the
usual starter symbols to the 'words' and look more like
normal text. There is a strong restriction to 'words' of
lengths 3 to 6 and the shorter words are above each other
in the shortest gaps. The texts are in Currier :-
Four 'nymphs' facing right then six facing left.
Texts 1 to 8
OFZO 8OFAE 8AE89 8AEFAR 8E9 OP9 8AR9 8AE89
2ARAE 8AROE 8AEZ8 4OFAE OR9 ES9 8AE 4OPC8
Texts 9 and 10
RFAE OEFS9
9FC89 OPOE9
There is no doubt about the 'words' which are divided by the
struts of an overhead canopy. They come between the first
and second paragraphs on the page.
Now back to the rearranged Zodiac counts
(s) (z)
PSC AR1 AR2 TA1 TA2 GEM CNC LEO VIR LIB SCO SGR
2
1
3 1 1 1 1
4 1
4 2 1 6 1 6 1 5 4
9
5 9 2 1 1 7 2 7 5 11 7
7
6 11 4 3 4 4 7 4 5 14 11 7
8
7 5 7 4 3 5 3 6 8 2 7
5
8 2 3 1 3 3 4 6 2 1
9 1 2 1 1 6 2 1
10 1 2 1
11 2 1 1 2 2
13 1 1 1
14 1
17 1
18 1
(t) 173 134 109 105 123 168 236 178 186 158 156 157
(m) 5.8 8.9 7.3 7.0 8.2 5.8 8.1 5.9 6.2 5.3 5.2 5.2
(i) 2 3 0 7 11 3 30 7 10 6 2 7
(r)
1 10 5 5 5 5 9 7 12 12 10 10 10
2 19 10 10 10 10 16 11 18 18 20 16 16
3 5 12 4
4
(z)=Zodiac sign (s)= label symbol lengths and counts
(m)=mean length of label symbol counts (t)=total symbol count
for given Zodiac labels (r)=figure/nymph ring counts
(i)=no. of symbol i's in total (t)
I hope this is clearer. Denis
From VM Wed Feb 24 21:58:49 1999
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["1202" "Mon" "18" "August" "1997" "09:17:39" "+0800" "robertjf@iss.nus.sg" "robertjf@iss.nus.sg" nil nil "Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics" "^Date:" nil nil "8" "97081801:17:39" nil nil nil]
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:17:39 +0800
From: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics
> B) The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
> lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
> for the total lengths.
I like this one best. One may even assume that the figures
and the text were done at the same time.
----
RF: I think this can be tested. If I were drawing a divided
circle *before* adding nymphs and text, I'd draw the lines as
bisectors of the circle, ie every line would cross the whole
circle. If I were doing it the other way round, I'd do the
lines as radii and they wouldn't line up across the circle.
My VMs copy is packed away, so could someone else look?
----
The nymphs were drawn from the inside ring outwards, with
the text added either immediately or afterwards. The text
is written to the right of the nymph. I think there are
two possibilities for the order: either starting near
00:00 and going clockwise or starting near 09:00 and going
against the clock, this from observing where the nymphs are
more cramped together (especially the inner circle of
Sagittarius).
----
RF: yes; I recall making the same observation. I believe the
circles were filled in clockwise, one sector at a time.
----
Yours
Robert
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:39:51 +0200
From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics
Robert Firth wrote:
> If I were drawing a divided circle *before* adding
> nymphs and text, I'd draw the lines as bisectors of
> the circle, ie every line would cross the whole
> circle. If I were doing it the other way round, I'd
> do the lines as radii and they wouldn't line up
> across the circle.
> My VMs copy is packed away, so could someone else look?
Well, there aren't any lines really (as I am sure Robert
knows), but if we talk about the imaginary lines creating
the sectors in which the nymphs are drawn, I can confirm
that these do not line up at all for the different
'tracks' (to use a more contemporary term). All tracks
seem to have been done completely independently. It's
not even clear where the starting point is, i.e. there
is not always a nymph at one 'starting position'. I'd have
to look again for a clock direction in which there is
always a gap.
Perhaps it's significant that on the 'text tracks', whenever
a start marker is present, it is near 10:30. Also, obviously,
the text is written clockwise.
Still, I would not take anything for granted. There are
some cases where text-only pages were almost certainly not
written line by line.
Cheers. Rene
From VM Wed Feb 24 22:02:44 1999
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["1731" "" "29" "October" "1997" "10:39:39" "-0500" "Guy Thibault" "gthibault@artefact.qc.ca" nil nil "Objet: Yet more hypothesis :-)" "^Date:" nil nil "10" "97102915:39:39" nil nil nil]
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Date: 29 Oct 1997 10:39:39 -0500
From: "Guy Thibault" <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Objet: Yet more hypothesis :-)
Dear all,
Still working on the idea that the "nymphs" depicted in the zodiacal circles
represent a daughter of royal descent who had a twin sister... So far I have only
one match and this set the epoch to 1438 and the daugthers of Charles VII, pseudo-King
of France (until Joan of Arc came along).
I gathered as many events as I could, that were suceptibles to be noteworthy
and I am trying to match them with drawings. So far the bets results seems to indicate
two scale of time. Which is the correct one???
Common base:
Start of circle is at 10 o'clock (not noon) - birth is depicted at 10, where there are third rings
they "start" at 10 o'clock...
You read clockwise
H1: The circles are read from the inner ring first, going outward.
Each nymphs is a lunar month (full moon).
This would bring us right to the end of Charles VII reign.
H2: the inner ring nymphs are the full moon
the next ring (going outward) are the half moon (crowing C|, and decreasing D)
when there is an extra third ring this is the first quarter and last quarter
That way one can pin point an event to within a couple of days and this brings us
to sometime after the death of the older daughter in 1446.
This means that where there is tho rings, you read the outer first, this is the growing
phase towards full moon, then the inner ring which is full moon, and then back to the outer
ring for the half moon going towards the new moon...
I am still trying to gather data on events of that era, and of course I am still exploring
new hypothesis ;-)
I just thought I might mentions these (new?) interpretations while you were all discussing
the bathing beauties and stuff ;-) We might have known word yet :-) for the labels!
Cheers
Guy Thibault
From VM Wed Feb 24 22:03:37 1999
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Hello!
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In-Reply-To: <9711021142.AA00219@lily.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <345AFE89.6A@study.club.or.jp>
<9711021142.AA00219@lily.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
> [pepe:] (1) Can we be sure that the units of the text are
> "words" as we see them written? (I mean, groups of symbols
> divided by blanks).
My current guess is that a large fraction of the blanks are NOT word
spaces. One bit of evidence is that 85% of the spaces can be
predicted by looking at the two adjacent letters. Few natural
languages behave like that. Also, it seems that figure labels can be
found more easily in the main text if one ignores the word spaces of
the latter
> Has anybody tried to analyze the text using as unit,
> not the word, but some other division? (like lines, or
> "syllables").
The letter and digraph frequencies around word spaces are
significantly different from those around line breaks. This was
noticed first by Capt. Currier and has been confirmed by many others.
Robert Firth and others have observed that the VMs "words" seem to
have a relatively rigid internal structure. They do look more like
syllabes than indo-european words.
> (2) Can we be sure of the sense in which the manuscript has to be
> read? (left-to-right or right-to-left)
Most of the text is in the form of ordinary-looking paragraphs,
averaging 5-6 lines (in the "bio" section, at least).
There is some
extra vertical space between consecutive paragraphs. The top line
of each paragraph often contains (and often begins with) certain
ornate letters that are rarely seen elsewhere.
All the lines of a paragraph begin on the left margin. They all end
approximately on the right margin---except the bottom one, which may end
anywere between the two margins. The right margin looks
generally more irregular than the right margin.
In some sections, each paragraph is "highlighted" by a star-shaped
symbol at the left end of the top line. A few pages contain what look
like "itemized lists", with a single-letter label at the left of the
top line of each paragraph.
These features are strong proof that the text was written left to right,
top to bottom, as in modern European languages. In fact, they show that
the scribe was European, or at least familiar with the European
paragraph structure (such as ornate letters on the first line).
Before we jump to conclusions, however, note that this tells us
about the *scribe*, not necessarily the *author*. Thus, for instance,
the VMs may be an European copy of an Arabic original, mirror-reversed
for the convenience of an European client who could not get used
to the right-to-left order...
> (3) Can we be sure that the order of the pages in the manuscript is
> correct? (of course, if we have a picture spanning two pages, we know
> that those two pages are well placed, but, what about the rest?).
The pages have numbers, but they were apparently added some time after
the book was written, by someone who could not read it.
Pages with similar contents (as far as we can tell, from the figures and text
structure) are mostly grouped together. The signs of the zodiac are
in the correct order (but start with Pisces, an unusual choice).
There are a couple of pages that seem out of place, though.
Also, the the sheets of the herbal section alternate between two
distinct handwriting styles; this *might* be due to scrambling of the
sheets (folios) in that section. The other sections seem OK in this regard.
Jim Reeds's site has a very detailed physical description of the book,
which he checked against the real thing. There you will find a list of
the folios and how they are folded, nested and bound.
--stolfi
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:03:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
In-Reply-To: <199711021733.PAA05627@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
Subject: Re: Hello!
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> Pages with similar contents (as far as we can tell, from the figures and text
> structure) are mostly grouped together. The signs of the zodiac are
> in the correct order (but start with Pisces, an unusual choice).
Oops! I must've missed this as it came through in an earlier discussion on
the signs of the zodiac. This is not an unusual choice at all if one knows
astrology. It dates that this was done during the Piscean Age (ours), and
if there are numbers or portions of a 30-degree arc bisected by a line, we
could even have an approximate date (given that the 30 degrees of Pisces
line up against that portion of the Great New Year that would be some
portion of 1/12th of about 26,400 yrs or so -- I could look up the exact
number). In other words, the Pisces beginning actually points to it being
done in this age, while the abstract chart beginning with Aries would
point to nothing in particular.
Gee, now that we have that part, the rest should be easy! ;-)
warm regards, moonhawk
#
# References:
#
#
# Last edited on 1999-04-22 01:37:13 by stolfi