1043
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 15, 2015, 04:43:26 PM
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Maybe they are highlighted to show that they are both tied at the top. Or they both raised their bids recently. No something is different... didn't do that before. Bids are increasinng there as well. Yes, the highest bid is 370 USD / BTC now seem no one want to sell at this price ? https://twitter.com/barrysilbert/status/581167061101092864AFAIK the BIT shareholders have not yet received the digital certificates or whatever that they need in order to put their shares up for sale. So there are no sell offers yet. Those bids that are posted seem to be symbolic (100 shares = 10 BTC = 2200 $), perhaps just ways for the level-2 brokers to "plant the flag", or to prime the market with some good-looking numbers.
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1046
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 15, 2015, 11:34:10 AM
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https://www.bityes.comAnyone heard of this bit yes? Is it just a re direct to huobi? Is it a spin off to attract more western audience? BitYes is an exchange set up by Huobi (in Hong Kong, IIRC) to cater to non-Chinese clients. It trades in USD instead of CNY and is accessible to foreign banks, I beleive, but not (easily) to mainland Chinese. It was created last year at a time when Mainland Chinese exchanges expected to be closed at any time by PBoC. It was called BitVC initially but then changed its name. OKCoin did the same at about the same time. Their old exchange in Beijing is okcoin.cn, the foreigner-oriented version is okcoin.com.
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1047
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 15, 2015, 02:52:07 AM
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Does everyone realize that taxes are due tomorrow in the US (April 15th)? The recent sell off is obviously miners cashing out to pay taxes. Nothing to worry about.
IIRC, the deadline for tax selling was Dec 31, 2014. April 15 is only the deadline for filing the 2014 tax statements. Isn't that so? Nope, payments are due April 15th. The payment for the 2014 taxes is due April 15, 2015, yes. But the numbers that go in the 2014 tax statement - revenues, losses, deductibles, etc. -- must have happened between 2014-01-10 and 2014-12-31. So, in particular, one cannot claim losses incurred on trades made this year. Isn't that so?
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1051
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 14, 2015, 11:33:25 PM
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If we had no speculation, only demand for e-payments, the price would [ be ] P = 5.00 $/BTC only.
The guess T = 14 days assumes that most coins that someone receives in payment for something, or buys to spend, are sold or used to pay for things at various times within one month. (BitPay sells all the coins that they receive within a day or two, for example.)
The guess V = 5 million $/day is based on various bits of evidence that indicate that BitPay has been handling about 1 million $/day of payments over the last year. Since they are believed to be the largest bitcoin payment processor by volume, a factor of 5 seems to be a fair guess for the total volume of e-payments. This estimate includes other processors and raw bitcoin payments, but excludes illegal trade, since that is being curtailed and cannot be relied upon as a sustainer of the price. (Anyway, it seems unlikely to be more than 1 million $/day).
It is not correct to use for V the total USD transaction volume extracted from the blockchain, because most of the latter (probably more than 90%) is movement of coins between wallets that belong to the same person, or that is not payment for goods or services -- such as tumbling, hot/cold wallet flow, deposits and withdrawals at exchanges and similar sites, gambling, etc.
Clearly, the current price (~220 $/BT) is still largely sustained by speculation and speculative holding.
I like the Money Velocity Theory approach because I can understand it. But I think your estimates are misleading. IMO: N = number of coins that are being actively exchanged because they are the only ones that can be part of a velocity equation. At best I'd say N = 3 millions. The rest is hoarded or lost. T = 14 days looks like reasonable to me, considering the average bitcoiner is likely to do a couple of purchases in a month. V = use estimated onchain USD transaction volume from blockchain.info = above 40 million USD. That would give a BTC valuation above 40 * 14 / 3 = 187 USD, which is in line with what I expect. Note that I was estimating what the price would be if there was no speculation, and therefore no hoarding; i.e. all 14 million coins in circulation, held only for as long as needed to spend all that is earned (or save it by buying some other store-of-value asset, such as gold, real estate, treasury or loan bonds, etc..) As I noted above, the "estimated USD transaction volume" from blockchain.info is known to be much higher than the volume of e-payments. (At some point, PrimeDice betting alone was 40% of the blockchain traffic, in some metric). We do not know the real number, unfortunately. The little evidence I have seen tells me that it is probably on the order of 5 M$/day. You cannot trust the number 187 $/BTC because it depends on the amount of holding, i.e. speculation -- and speculation is unpredictable.
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1053
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 14, 2015, 08:46:22 PM
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Bitcoin is no longer an investment vehicle, which I find to be all right. If you call it money then it can't really be used as an investment. [ ... ] now is the way it should be. Current BTC price easiliy supports current BTC transaction volume, no fundamental reason for it to grow. Merchant adoption will lead to sell pressure and can be good for the price only in the long run.
If we had no speculation, only demand for e-payments, the price would follow the equation P = V * T / N, where P is the price ($/BTC), V is the volume of e-payments ($/day), T is the mean time between successive payments with the same coin (days), and N is the number of currency units in circulation (BTC). Assuming N = 14 million, guessing T = 14 days, and V = 5 million $/day, gives P = 5.00 $/BTC only. The guess T = 14 days assumes that most coins that someone receives in payment for something, or buys to spend, are sold or used to pay for things at various times within one month. (BitPay sells all the coins that they receive within a day or two, for example.) The guess V = 5 million $/day is based on various bits of evidence that indicate that BitPay has been handling about 1 million $/day of payments over the last year. Since they are believed to be the largest bitcoin payment processor by volume, a factor of 5 seems to be a fair guess for the total volume of e-payments. This estimate includes other processors and raw bitcoin payments, but excludes illegal trade, since that is being curtailed and cannot be relied upon as a sustainer of the price. (Anyway, it seems unlikely to be more than 1 million $/day). It is not correct to use for V the total USD transaction volume extracted from the blockchain, because most of the latter (probably more than 90%) is movement of coins between wallets that belong to the same person, or that is not payment for goods or services -- such as tumbling, hot/cold wallet flow, deposits and withdrawals at exchanges and similar sites, gambling, etc. Clearly, the current price (~220 $/BT) is still largely sustained by speculation and speculative holding.
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1054
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Economy / Speculation / Re: SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer
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on: April 14, 2015, 01:15:18 AM
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I suppose everyone has seen this document, available at the OTCQX site: http://www.otcmarkets.com/financialReportViewer?symbol=GBTC&id=133827BITCOIN INVESTMENT TRUST OTC MARKETS GROUP INFORMATION AND DISCLOSURE STATEMENT
Grayscale Investments, LLC (the “Sponsor”), on behalf of Bitcoin Investment Trust, is responsible for the content of this Information and Disclosure Statement, which has been prepared to fulfill the disclosure requirements of the OTCQX U.S. Premier marketplace. The information contained in this Disclosure Statement has not been filed with, or approved by, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (the “SEC”) or any state securities commission. Any representation to the contrary is a criminal offense. After the financial report there is a lengthy and detailed official description of the fund and its rules. (It seems I am a criminal, since I referred earlier to this (or some similar document) as "the SEC filing". Sorry for that.)
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1055
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 13, 2015, 10:57:42 PM
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$310 M USD Cryptocoin-based Ponzi Busted in Thailand http://www.coinbuzz.com/2015/04/13/arrests-in-ufun-crypto-currency-pyramid-scheme/In a bust on Friday, Thai police arrested four executives on charges of operating a pyramid scheme [ called "UFun", using ] a cryptocurrency called "Utoken", and stealing over 10 billion baht (roughly US$310 million). [ ... ] UFun sold various cosmetics and supplements. The company focused on referring new customers, rather than selling the products. Customers were encouraged to invest up to $50,000 in order to receive discounts on the products. [ ... ] UFun used its own cryptocurrency called UToken to let customers purchase its products. [ ... ] Websites promoting Utoken claim that it "will outperform Bitcoin and eventually overtake Bitcoin as the Ultimate Digital Currency".
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1057
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 13, 2015, 10:05:24 PM
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Does anybody know if there is/was a forum where you could go 24/7 to tell pre-ipo facebook investors that their investment is a fad, because nobody would be using it, because they could meet their friends in real life or sms/call them, and tell those investors every second of the the day that somebody did not update their facebook status so it was probably dying?
Can anyone direct me to the forum where Facebook stockholders discuss how to convince their parents and friends to use Facebook, in order to prevent its share price from falling?
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1059
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Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion
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on: April 13, 2015, 03:17:09 PM
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i somehow refuse to believe that after so great fundamentals and difficulty x times higher than 2013 summer
"Fundamentals" of an ordinary stock are the profits and capital assets of the underlying company. When you own a stock certificate, you literally own a slice of the company, so you own a slice of its capital assets and you are entitled to a slice of their profits. The fundamentals define the long-term price of a stock, although there can be a significant speculatiive element added to it in shorter time scales. Bitcoin has no "fundamentals". A bitcoin is like a share of a company with no product or service, no revenue, no capital assets. If you own a bitcoin you don't own any assets, and you are not entitled to any dividdends. The only thing you own is the certificate itself, whose only merit is that its current ownership is regstered in a supposedly ultra-safe registry that no government can tamper with. The only thing that fixes it price is speculation: your only hope of getting a profit out of it is finding someone who is willing to pay for it more than you paid. There has been perhaps a billion dollars invested into mining equipment, but bitcoin owners do not own a single screw of it. The mining industry has abut 800 k$/day of revenue, and some miners still make substantial profit; but not a penny of that money will go to the bitcoin owners. More than half a billion dollars has been invested in exchanges, payment processors, and other bitcoin-related companies; but, again, bitcoin owners do not own any piece of them. On the contrary, all the revenue of miners and bitcoin-related companies will come from the pockets of those who buy bitcoins. As for the difficulty: the market price determines the revenue of the miners, that determines the total hashpower, that determines the difficulty -- all indirectly, with substantial delays and distorted by accidents and errors of judgement. There is no reverse control channel: the difficulty has no influence whatsoever on the price.
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