From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  1 01:44 EST 1997
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From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Open Mouth, Insert Foot
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:47:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
To: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Cc: Rene Zandbergen <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Subject: Re: Greentings from a new member

On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> On 30 Dec 96 at 9:45, Dennis Stallings wrote:
> > However, I believe that you are the first 
> > person in South America who has spoken up.
> 
> Oops, I am coming from Uruguay, even I left about 11 years ago...
> Does that still count? :-)
> Happy new year!

	Sorry about that!  I thought you came from *Spain*, even though 
you got your degree in Uruguay.

Happy New Year!
Dennis


From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan  3 09:08 EST 1997
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  Dear all,

  as you probably all know, Gabriel and I are busy
  checking and completing the Manuscript transcription using
  the Petersen hand transcription provided by Jim Reeds.

  An important milestone was reached today: the Marshall
  library (who owns the Petersen material) has given us
  official permission to put the result on-line. Note that
  it will take a few more months to be completed, but it will be
  available for all at Gabriel's web site once it is ready.

  Kind regards,  Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan  3 09:14 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:10:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: New transcription
In-Reply-To: <C1256414:004CA6CA.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
 
>   An important milestone was reached today: the Marshall
>   library (who owns the Petersen material) has given us
>   official permission to put the result on-line. Note that
>   it will take a few more months to be completed, but it will be
>   available for all at Gabriel's web site once it is ready.


	Great!

	Will this make it possible to put *images* of the Petersen copy
online, GIF or JPG files, as opposed to transcription results? 

Regards,
Dennis

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Jan  6 08:18 EST 1997
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  Dear all,

  the Voynich Manuscript text appears on its pages in various
  shapes. There are usually normal paragraphs of writing, where
  the unit is the line. In addition, there are short fragments
  near illustrations (the so-called labels), radiating and
  circular lines, etc. To represent the text in the EVMT
  transcription file, the text units (called loci) have been
  subdivided into six categories:

  1) Normal text paragraphs
     These are what we see most of the time. One locus holds
     one line of writing.
  2) Circular writing (e.g. around the zodiac pages).
     One locus hold one complete circle (and the one spiral
     in the upper right circle of the 9-disk thing is also
     counted as one)
  3) Text along radiating lines (mainly in the cosmological
     section)
  4) Labels (on the zodiac, biological and pharmaceutical pages)
  5) 'Scattered blocks' which are like paragraphs disconnected
     from the main text (e.g. on f86v3). One locus holds one line.
  6) Scattered writing, which are like labels, except that
     they're not near an illustration (many in the 9-disk thing)

  The entire manuscript has been covered, and the following
  premature list gives the number of each:

  Normal:          3979
  Circular:          81
  Radiating:        138
  Labels:           712
  Blocks:           152
  Scattered:        268

  Total:           5330

  The total should be taken plus or minus twenty or so,
  depending on the exact definition of some of the labels.

  In addition, I'd like to announce that for each locus we
  have now at least one piece of computer transcription
  (except for occasional gaps in the FSG file due to eye
  skip).
  The proofreading will take a few more months though.

  Cheers,  Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Jan  6 08:41 EST 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:25:46 -0500
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On Friday 27 Dec 1996 my wife and I had a several hour coffee chat
with Mrs Frances Wilbur and her husband Dr William Wilbur.

Mrs Wilbur is a fully alert and aggressive conversationalist.  She
claims her age and infirmities have affected her memory for dates but
I saw no evidence of greater memory impairment than (say) mine or my
wife's.

She (then named Frances M. Puckett) worked as a civilian employee of
the US Army's cryptanalytic branch (originally called the Signal
Intelligence Service but later the Signal Security Agency) between
1942 and 1945.  She joined the SIS when it was still housed in the
Munitions Building in Washington DC, as one of only 14 employees.
(Presumably in her section.)  She was the youngest of her group.  
(She had just graduated from college, where she had taken the Army's
correspondence course in cryptanalysis.  She has to wait until her
roommate was asleep before she could take out her study material!)
The SIS moved to Arlington Hall, Virginia, where she stayed until
March 1945.  She worked in the "A" section, which would nowadays be
called the COMSEC or communications security branch.  She evaluated
cryptosystems submitted by the public (which partially accounted for
her section's nickname, the "nut section") and devised a weather-report
encryption scheme.

Since that time she has had no contact with any of her Arlington Hall
colleagues, nor read nor thought about the VMS. In November 1996 her
youngest daughter was showing off the wonders of the internet
and challenged her to think of some very obscure topic to use to put
an internet search engine through its paces.  Mrs Wilbur tried
"cryptanalysis" and "Voynich Manuscript", and thus found the VMS
mailing list.

She remembers only some things about the FSG's activities, possibly 
because most of the FSG's members were from the "C" section (cryptanalysis
of enemy systems) whom she did not know.  She was present at the initial
meeting of 22 people when the alphabet symbols were chosen.  The FSG had
no special name for itself.

She remembers working with her partner Salome Betts transcribing VMS
text from the large-size photostats now in the Marshall Library.
Transcribing was done as follows.  After hours she and Salome met at
Frances's apartment, waiting for a time when her apartment mates were
absent.  (The FSG members had been told not to talk with outsiders
about the Voynich project.)  Then, at a table, she and Salome would
transcribe.  One would hold her finger to a Voynich letter in the
photostat.  The two agreed on the transcribed value and the other
wrote the transcribed value onto the sheet of quadrille paper.  The
work was incredibly slow, but not unpleasant.  ("We thought it was a
ball."  "You had to have a sense of humor or you'd go bonkers.")

She could not account for the use of alternate transcription alphabets
(the "alphabetical" and the "mnemomic", in the terms of my paper).
She could not recall how overall checking was to be accomplished, nor
whether other transcribing teams were assigned the same pages as a
check.  (It's possible that two transcribers at once was thought good
enough.)  She did not know how the transcribing tasks were divvied up,
but thought that "Dusty" (Capt. Marc) Rhoads would have been in
charge of that.  She must have done a lot of transcribing work,
because her name appears not only on the "1613" transcription that I
mentioned in my paper, but also because her (first) married name, Mrs
Wilford, appears on the covers of another bunch of printout material
in the Marshall Library.

Jim Reeds

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From reeds Mon Jan  6 18:22:45 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@fry.research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9701061822.ZM28514@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:22:45 -0500
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This Christmas I had a chance to see a very elegant reproduction of a 
manuscript in Vienna containing several hundred different cipher keys
from the late 1400's.  This MS was written in exactly the time period 
and general location Toresella placed the composition of the VMS (based 
on the general appearance of VMS handwriting).  Many of the cipher keys 
use made-up symbols, many of which look vaguely Voynichese.

The executive summary:  such symbols were in the "air" in at that time,
and no theory of Aztec influence need be invoked to account for their 
presence in a late 15th century Northern Italian production.

The MS is "Codex Vindobonensis 2398", which is a 500 Schilling way of
saying "Vienna MS 2398".  The book I saw was vol. 22 in series "Codices
Selecti / Phototypice Impressi"  published in 1970 by "Akademische druck
-u.  Verlagsanstalt" of Graz, Austria.  Its title is "Francesco Tranchedino /
Diplomatische Geheimschriften / Codex Vindobonensis 2398 / Der 
Oesterreichischen Nationalbibliothek / Faksimilieausgabe / Einfuehrung
Walter Hoeflechner "

The introduction is very long & interesting, but I had only a short
time to look at it.  The MS itself has 169 folios (all very clearly
reproduced), with about 300 cipher keys, one per page.  "Der Hauptteil
des cvp 2389, das eigentliche Chiffrenprotokoll, enthaelt 297 vollstaendige
Schluessel aus der Cancelleria segreta..." The compiler (Tranchedino) was
a cryppie in the Sforza chancery in Milan in the late 1400's.  Each cipher
key lists 1, 2, or 3 cipher equivalents for each of the alphabet letters, 
a list of maybe 4 or 6 nulls (symbols without meaning, thrown into the
cryptogram to amuse the opponents), cipher equivalents for doubled letters,
and in some cases, cipher equivalents for as many as 50 or so words and 
proper names.

The designer of the cipher symbols seems to have had fun.  Each one has
a kind of thematic unity: all the symbols are Arabic numbers, or all
the symbols are letters and pairs of letters, or are all Voynich- or
Capelli-like pothooks, or are all alchemical and astrological, or are
all Greek letters, in every case occurring in all kinds of ligatured and
pot-hook encrusted variants.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 09:35 EST 1997
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  A few days ago,  Dennis  Stallings wrote, replying to my announcement
  that the Marshall Library in Virginia allowed us to put the Petersen
  computer transcription on-line (some day...):

   > Great!

   > Will this make it possible to put *images* of the Petersen
   > copy on-line, GIF or JPG files, as opposed to transcription
   > results?

   Taking the letter litterally, this is not really covered. Whereas I feel
   that they would not object to this, it should be checked. Maybe
   it is covered by Jim's original permission to use the material....

   Would you be thinking of a few sample pages or the whole lot?

   Cheers,  Rene



From reeds Wed Jan  8 09:54:16 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@fry.research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9701080954.ZM14011@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:54:15 -0500
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Subject: Voynich
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On Jan 8, 15:30, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> 
>   A few days ago,  Dennis  Stallings wrote, 
...
> 
>    > Will this make it possible to put *images* of the Petersen
>    > copy on-line, GIF or JPG files, as opposed to transcription
>    > results?
> 
>    Taking the letter litterally, this is not really covered. Whereas I feel
>    that they would not object to this, it should be checked. Maybe
>    it is covered by Jim's original permission to use the material....
>

I think in the most precise sense it is not covered by my original permission:
in my email to the Marshall Library I asked for permission to "make second-
generation loose-leaf xerographic copies of this Petersen document available 
to fellow Voynich MS researchers, at cost, by copying the copy you sent me."

On the other hand I pointed out to them:  "I must warn you that I would come
close to glutting the market: if your organization tried to sell its own
edition of this material to Voynich MS buffs you would have a hard sell."
We may take their granting permission to me to redistribute paper copies,
and to Rene and Gabriel to distribute their transcription as evidence that
they really do not care what we do with this material.  From this point of
view we should just go ahead and post scans without asking them, and we'd
be doing them a favor by not bothering them with a triviality.  On the other
hand, this is terrible legal advice:  simply because M does not seem to value
part of his property much as I do does not entitle me to take M's property
without M's permission.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 13:33 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:47:44 +0000
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Status: OR

> >   A few days ago,  Dennis  Stallings wrote, 
> ...
> > 
> >    > Will this make it possible to put *images* of the Petersen
> >    > copy on-line, GIF or JPG files, as opposed to transcription
> >    > results?

First the Petersen figures are NOT very good either, I can't see the 
point to put those on line as most of them are not very informative.

Second, we already discussed the amount of space that would take to 
put on file the images and at that time we were thinking of a huge 
amount of space.

With the kind permission given by the Marshall Library, the claims of 
Yale to protect their data becomes near to meaningless: there will be 
a new transcription out regardless that one cannot transcribe from 
the microfilm/copyflo.
What do all the Voynichers think about approaching Yale again and 
explaining the situation? Or should everything kept quiet?

Regards,

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 11:12 EST 1997
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From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Putting VMs Images on the Web
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On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

>   A few days ago,  Dennis  Stallings wrote, replying to my announcement
>   that the Marshall Library in Virginia allowed us to put the Petersen
>   computer transcription on-line (some day...):
> 
>    > Great!
> 
>    > Will this make it possible to put *images* of the Petersen
>    > copy on-line, GIF or JPG files, as opposed to transcription
>    > results?
> 
>    Taking the letter litterally, this is not really covered. Whereas I feel
>    that they would not object to this, it should be checked. Maybe
>    it is covered by Jim's original permission to use the material....
> 
>    Would you be thinking of a few sample pages or the whole lot?


	I was thinking of a few sample pages.  The characters show up 
well on the Petersen copy, but the drawings are highly variable.  On some 
pages the drawings are OK; on some pages the drawings are completely 
invisible.  The drawings of the nine rosettes on f85/86 aren't too bad, 
and of course they're some of the most interesting drawings in the VMs.  
We might want to put them up.

	However, I agree that we don't want to do anything to antagonize 
the Marshall Library, since they've been so nice so far.  I think we 
should ask, at least informally.

	I've also been thinking about putting up some of the published 
images.  For instance, the images in Newbold should be OK.  Those images 
have "by courtesy of Wilfrid M. Voynich" under them, and Newbold's book 
is so old, I'm sure it's long out of copyright.  There are a lot of other 
published images (Scientific American, Harper's, Washington Post) that 
would fall into this category.  

	Blunt and Raphael was published in 1979.  I haven't checked, but I
would guess that it's still in print, and that therefore the copyright has
at some time been renewed.  In that case we could not put their images on
the Web. 

	Brumbaugh is the one I'm not sure of.  His book was published in 
1978.  It's out of print, and he's deceased.  As I recall, copyrights 
last for 17 years, so unless the copyright has been renewed, which seems 
highly unlikely, it's out of copyright.  

	However, all the images in Brumbaugh have "by permission of the 
Beinecke Rare Books Library, Yale University" under them.  Does this mean 
that Yale still has control of the images, even though the book is 
(almost certainly) out of copyright?  

	I'm sure Jim Reeds knows the answer to this.  

Cheers,
Dennis

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 13:33 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:41:52 +0000
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On  8 Jan 97 at 10:05, Dennis Stallings wrote:
> Those images 
> have "by courtesy of Wilfrid M. Voynich" under them, and Newbold's book 
> is so old, I'm sure it's long out of copyright.  There are a lot of other 
> published images (Scientific American, Harper's, Washington Post) that 
> would fall into this category.  

Hm... wouldnt the publishing company keep the copyright?
If you can prove that your image came from W. Voynich... then you may 
be right, otherwise it's the image of the publisher.

> 	Brumbaugh is the one I'm not sure of.  His book was published in 
> 1978.  It's out of print, and he's deceased.  As I recall, copyrights 
> last for 17 years, so unless the copyright has been renewed, which seems 
> highly unlikely, it's out of copyright.  

I believe that it was 40 or 50 years and was_going_to/has_been
recently increased to 75 (at least in Europe) since the death of the
author.

I wanted to reproduce a picture of Escher in one paper and it is
still protected by copyright (good that I asekd what remains of the
Escher Foundation (something called Cordon Art) before submitting
the paper!)

> 	However, all the images in Brumbaugh have "by permission of the 
> Beinecke Rare Books Library, Yale University" under them.  Does this mean 
> that Yale still has control of the images, even though the book is 
> (almost certainly) out of copyright?  

I would suspect they are... unfortunately.

It is quite funny, the manuscript itself cannot be copyrighted, 
right? just the material that Beinecke supplies...
I wonder if the original author ever imagined that in fact his ms was 
a treasure!

Cheers,

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 12:56 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 17:52:13 GMT
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To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: voynich
Status: ORr

Sirs,

I have read of this mailing list concerning the Voynich manuscript.
Is it still active?

Yours sincerely

Philip Neal

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 14:21 EST 1997
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From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Putting VMs Images on the Web (fwd)
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	I'm putting this to the list so everyone can see.  

	I certainly wasn't saying you're a know-it-all, Jim!  :-)  It's 
just that I was sure that we'd been through all this before, and I didn't 
remember it from the mail archives.  

Cheers,
Dennis

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:21:41 -0500
From: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
To: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
Subject: Re: Putting VMs Images on the Web

> I'm sure Jim Reeds knows the answer to this. 

Have I become that insufferable thing, a know-it-all?

I am sure Yale gave permission to Brumbaugh to print the images just in his
book, and not any further.  The reason the "by permission..." note is put
near photos in books is not for glory, but to tell the world that they still
own & control rights to that image.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379


From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 14:23 EST 1997
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From: Brian Smith <briansm@MICROSOFT.com>
To: "'Dennis Stallings'" <denstall@tyrell.net>,
        "'rzandber@esoc.esa.de'"
	 <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Cc: "'voynich@rand.org'" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: Putting VMs Images on the Web
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:18:19 -0800
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>From my understanding of copyright law, none of the published works
about the VMS are out of copyright yet.
http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ01.html contains a detailed
discussion of US copyright law.  Works published before 1978 are
protected for 75 years; those published from 1978 on are protected until
50 years after the death of the author.  Therefore, even Newbold's book
is protected until 2003.  Whether a book remains in print does not
change its copyright status.  One helpful exception to copyright law is
that copyrighted works may be reproduced under the "fair use" provision.
 It permits limited reproduction for scholarly use.  Here is the text of
the fair use provision which I pulled from
gopher://hamilton1.house.gov/00d:/uscode/title17/sect01/file.011 :

           Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the
fair
           use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction
in
           copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by
that
           section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news
reporting,
           teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),
           scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of
copyright.  In
           determining whether the use made of a work in any particular
case
           is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -
               (1) the purpose and character of the use, including
whether
             such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit
             educational purposes;
               (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
               (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in
             relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
               (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for
or
             value of the copyrighted work.
           The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a
finding
           of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all
the
           above factors.

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Dennis Stallings [SMTP:denstall@tyrell.net]
>Sent:	Wednesday, January 08, 1997 8:06 AM
>To:	rzandber@esoc.esa.de
>Cc:	voynich@rand.org
>Subject:	Putting VMs Images on the Web
>
>On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>
>>   A few days ago,  Dennis  Stallings wrote, replying to my announcement
>>   that the Marshall Library in Virginia allowed us to put the Petersen
>>   computer transcription on-line (some day...):
>> 
>>    > Great!
>> 
>>    > Will this make it possible to put *images* of the Petersen
>>    > copy on-line, GIF or JPG files, as opposed to transcription
>>    > results?
>> 
>>    Taking the letter litterally, this is not really covered. Whereas I feel
>>    that they would not object to this, it should be checked. Maybe
>>    it is covered by Jim's original permission to use the material....
>> 
>>    Would you be thinking of a few sample pages or the whole lot?
>
>
>	I was thinking of a few sample pages.  The characters show up 
>well on the Petersen copy, but the drawings are highly variable.  On some 
>pages the drawings are OK; on some pages the drawings are completely 
>invisible.  The drawings of the nine rosettes on f85/86 aren't too bad, 
>and of course they're some of the most interesting drawings in the VMs.  
>We might want to put them up.
>
>	However, I agree that we don't want to do anything to antagonize 
>the Marshall Library, since they've been so nice so far.  I think we 
>should ask, at least informally.
>
>	I've also been thinking about putting up some of the published 
>images.  For instance, the images in Newbold should be OK.  Those images 
>have "by courtesy of Wilfrid M. Voynich" under them, and Newbold's book 
>is so old, I'm sure it's long out of copyright.  There are a lot of other 
>published images (Scientific American, Harper's, Washington Post) that 
>would fall into this category.  
>
>	Blunt and Raphael was published in 1979.  I haven't checked, but I
>would guess that it's still in print, and that therefore the copyright has
>at some time been renewed.  In that case we could not put their images on
>the Web. 
>
>	Brumbaugh is the one I'm not sure of.  His book was published in 
>1978.  It's out of print, and he's deceased.  As I recall, copyrights 
>last for 17 years, so unless the copyright has been renewed, which seems 
>highly unlikely, it's out of copyright.  
>
>	However, all the images in Brumbaugh have "by permission of the 
>Beinecke Rare Books Library, Yale University" under them.  Does this mean 
>that Yale still has control of the images, even though the book is 
>(almost certainly) out of copyright?  
>
>	I'm sure Jim Reeds knows the answer to this.  
>
>Cheers,
>Dennis

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 20:50 EST 1997
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Subject: Re: Voynich
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:44:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <9701081548.AA03988@sun1.bham.ac.uk> from "Gabriel Landini" at Jan 8, 97 03:47:44 pm
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> With the kind permission given by the Marshall Library, the claims of 
> Yale to protect their data becomes near to meaningless: there will be 
> a new transcription out regardless that one cannot transcribe from 
> the microfilm/copyflo.
> What do all the Voynichers think about approaching Yale again and 
> explaining the situation? Or should everything kept quiet?

I think Yale should be let to find that out for itself. Like the
transcription of the Dead Sea Scrolls several years ago, the transcription
of the VMs on the Net should be proliferated enough that Yale is presented
with a fiat accompli (my French isn't that good Jaques :) ). 

Perhaps then Yale will react as the keepers of the Dead Sea Scrolls did and
open the document to scholars for study, as opposed to the elite they chose
to admit.

-Adams

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan  9 00:11 EST 1997
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:04:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
To: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Voynich
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On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Adams Douglas wrote:
 
> I think Yale should be let to find that out for itself. Like the
> transcription of the Dead Sea Scrolls several years ago, the transcription
> of the VMs on the Net should be proliferated enough that Yale is presented
> with a fiat accompli (my French isn't that good Jaques :) ). 
> 
> Perhaps then Yale will react as the keepers of the Dead Sea Scrolls did and
> open the document to scholars for study, as opposed to the elite they chose
> to admit.

	This is what I've been thinking would be the best approach --
present Yale with a fait accompli.  However, there have even been problems
with the Dead Sea Scrolls.  As I recall, the owners are placing some sort
of restrictions on rights to the *translations* that can be made from
them.  There might be some cautionary tales to be found there. 

Dennis

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan  8 18:41 EST 1997
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Gabriel Landini asks:

> What do all the Voynichers think about approaching Yale again and
> explaining the situation? Or should everything kept quiet?


Let us ignore Yale. But let us not make any efforts to keep
anything quiet. Once the whole thing is transcribed, we advertise
it all over the net (sci.crypt, sci.lang...), and we e-mail all
those sites which mention the Voynich manuscript, be they about
decipherment, or far-out "magick". AND, in the readme.1st or
whatever of the page where the "Compleate Voynich" is to be
found, we mention the crass attitude of Yale. Ca leur fera les
pieds, a ces foireux! (Excuse my French)

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan  9 00:47 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:35:11 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Organization: Telstra
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Voynich
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108230110.10466A@tyrell.net>
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Status: ORf

Dennis Stallings:

>   However, there have even been problems
> with the Dead Sea Scrolls.  As I recall, the owners are placing some sort
> of restrictions on rights to the *translations* that can be made from
> them.  There might be some cautionary tales to be found there.
 
I'd like to see that happen for the VMS! It is like the various museums
and collectors who own the Easter Island tablets put restrictions on the
dozens of zany attempts at translation. Or the museum where the Phaistos
disk lives putting restrictions on attempting its translation. Let us
not worry, and a well-deserved pox and seven curses on Yale!

BTW I loved that slip of the pen "a fiat accompli", or was it a slip
of the pen? If not, then, I am jealous: I wish I had written it!

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 10 03:47 EST 1997
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Message-ID: <C125641B:002E4B8A.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:42:38 +0200
Subject: Yale, Beinecke and copyrights
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Status: OR





  Dear all,

  we got the photocopies of the Voynich manuscript from
  Yale under the _fair use_ provision, the text of which was
  kindly provided by one of our members. I am sure Yale
  was just following their standard procedure for distribution
  of copies of their material.
  It may seem exaggerated to treat copies of the Voynich
  manuscript in this way, *but* as a way to
  treat their complete collection of rare books and manuscripts
  it is completely justified. They are sitting on a treasure of
  information, which is theirs, and they need to protect their
  rights.
  Special arrangements have been made many times.
  Brumbaugh and more recently Jim Reeds and Sergio
  Toresella were allowed to publish images in books and
  journals, without having to pay unreasonable prices.

  I brought up the subject with Gabriel of
  approaching Yale again, because we could do
  a better job if we were to allowed to use the Yale
  copy, limited as it is. A special arrangement might be
  interesting for them too. And I have no such
  hard feelings with them to feel a need to 'rub their
  noses' into the fact that we will put up the Petersen
  transcription. I am admittedly skeptical about whether
  they would agree to it though.

  That's just my personal opinion, folks.

  Cheers,  Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 10 10:35 EST 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9701101022.ZM26230@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:22:55 -0500
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich, Yale, Beinecke and copyrights
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Status: OR

I agree with everything Rene wrote in his post on this subject.  We
might not like Yale's photo quality, fee schedule, or use restrictions.
But Yale imposes them on all users, not just us, and all the world's
rare book libraries have similar policies.  Like Rene,


>   				... I have no such
>   hard feelings with them to feel a need to 'rub their
>   noses' into the fact that we will put up the Petersen
>   transcription.
i




-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 10 19:50 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:45:14 -0500 (EST)
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <C125641B:002E4B8A.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
	(rzandber@esoc.esa.de)
Subject: Re: Yale, Beinecke and copyrights
Status: OR


Unless there are obscure provisions of copyright law that I am unfamiliar
with, here is my (lay) understanding (again, n.b., I am not an attorney,
and this is not legal advise...):

*No one* owns the rights to the *contents* of the Voynich. The text itself
is in public domain. Yale may own the copyright to their microfilm and
copies (film or paper) made from it as "derivative works" based on the mss.,
but any rights to control the making of machine readable transcriptions, etc.
come from contract law -- they are providing something of value (copies of
their microfilm) in exchange for your agreeing to abide by the restrictions
on use they impose. In other words, if the British Museum gave you a copy of
their microfilm with no restrictions, and you wrote a machine readable
transcription based on that, Yale would have no say in the matter (indeed,
I suspect Yale had no say in the making and distribution of the D'Imperio
transcription).

To the extent that there may be some ill feeling towards Yale, I think it
comes from the following: comments have been made on the mailing list to the
effect that there are portions of the existing film which are inadequate for
proper scholarly study (or, in extreme cases, even casual perusal); in
addition, color, IR, or other additional non-destructive imaging of selected
portions of the mss. might reveal additional valuable information; despite
this, when approached with proposals by one or more mailing list member to do
such imaging or refilming *not at Yale's expense*, Yale has reacted in a
negative fashion. The problem is not that they are acting in a proprietary
fashion -- the problem is that they have acted in an obstructivist fashion
that goes beyond the merely proprietary.  If the above is a misrecollection of
what has been said over the past six or so years on the mailing list, please
correct me.

Karl

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 10 22:17 EST 1997
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Shar archive file with Voynich analysis program
Status: OR


Way back when I wrote this I mailed source which included some non-standard
function calls. The shar archive file below contains what should be all the
source needed to get it to compile and run on a (BSD-based) UNIX system.
Hope some of y'all find it useful. Do cluster analysis on folios! Look for
vowels! It's Voynalicious!

Karl

---- Cut Here and feed the following to sh ----
#!/bin/sh
# This is a shell archive (produced by GNU sharutils 4.2).
# To extract the files from this archive, save it to some FILE, remove
# everything before the `!/bin/sh' line above, then type `sh FILE'.
#
# Made on 1997-01-10 19:13 EST by <kckluge@glasnost.eecs.umich.edu>.
# Source directory was `/n/krusty/s/kckluge/yarf/DemoB/tmp/voyn'.
#
# Existing files will *not* be overwritten unless `-c' is specified.
# This format requires very little intelligence at unshar time.
# "if test", "echo", "mkdir", and "sed" may be needed.
#
# This shar contains:
# length mode       name
# ------ ---------- ------------------------------------------
#  21766 -rw-r--r-- README
#    276 -rw-r--r-- Makefile
#  43352 -rw------- voyn_tool.c
#   2965 -rw------- getbool.c
#   3488 -rw------- getfloat.c
#   3279 -rw------- getint.c
#   3312 -rw------- getstr.c
#   1594 -rw------- c.h
#  57813 -rw-r--r-- Bcorpus
#
echo=echo
if mkdir _sh19086; then
  $echo 'x -' 'creating lock directory'
else
  $echo 'failed to create lock directory'
  exit 1
fi
# ============= README ==============
if test -f 'README' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'README' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'README' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'README' &&
XThis software is provided for entertainment and educational purposes only, 
Xand is provided "as is," with no warranties regarding correctness or
Xusability. Use at your own risk.
X
XTo compile the program, type "make voyn" at the shell command line prompt.
XWhen you run voyn, you will be prompted for a variety of parameters (generally
Xwith defaults in brakets). The prompts have the following meaning:
X
X> data file  [/n/krusty/s/kckluge/voynich/voynich] 
X
XThe name of the file containing the Voynich text you wish to analyze, using
Xthe format of the D'Imperio transcription. The "B" hand material from the
Xoriginal D'Imperio transcription is included for test purposes in the file
XBcorpus.
X
X> page cluster: 0 none; 1 nearest mean; 2 MST; 3 both  (0 to 3)  [1]  3
X
XTwo clustering algorithms are available to look for groups of pages,
Xnearest-mean (also called basic ISODATA) and MST (which is a hierarchical
Xclustering algorithm using a Minimum Spanning Tree based technique).  Appended
Xis a message from the mailing list describing the MST-based clustering
Xalgorithm and how to read the resulting dendrogram. Depending on the parameter
Xvalue given, the program will apply neither, either, or both of the clustering
Xtechniques.
X
X> number of clusters  (2 to 60)  [10]  4
X
XThe number of target clusters for the nearest mean clustering. Note: some
Xclusters may be empty.
X
X> RNG seed  (0 to 10000000)  [1963]  369150
X
XRandom number generator seed.
X
X> digraph frequency cutoff  (0 to 1)  [0.01]  0.05
X
XAll digraphs of whatever type (global, line initial/final, word initial/final,
Xword final/initial) with relative frequencies greater than this parameter will
Xbe listed.
X
X> chars to print digraphs for  [2489AOPRSZ]  
X
XDigraph matrices for these characters will be printed.
X
X> digraph array(s): g(lobal); L(ine) W(ord) init; l(ine) w(ord) final; (X)/y  [gLX]  
X
XSpecifies the set of digraph matrices to print.
X
X> ignore spaces in adjacency count for vowels  [no]  
X
XThe algorithm uses the Sukhotin algorithm for vowel indentification. This
Xparameter indicates whether or not to count spaces when computing the
Xadjacency count in the algorithm.
X
X> file of labels to compute expectations for  [/dev/null]  
X> num of chars to compute expect for (< 0 = sample size)  (-2000000000 to 2000000000)  [-1]  
X
XThese can be set to the default values -- they're used in calculating the
Xexpected number of occurances of text strings in the data given the digraph
Xfrequencies.
X
XHere is an example run. Note that some of the line final frequencies disagree
Xslightly with those in the B Corpus results in the comments at the end of the
Xsource code. The reason for this is unknown. Again, caveat emptor.
X
X[ 120 ] voyn -: voyn
Xdata file  [/n/krusty/s/kckluge/voynich/voynich]  Bcorpus
Xpage cluster: 0 none; 1 nearest mean; 2 MST; 3 both  (0 to 3)  [1]  3
Xnumber of clusters  (2 to 60)  [10]  4
XRNG seed  (0 to 10000000)  [1963]  369150
Xdigraph frequency cutoff  (0 to 1)  [0.01]  0.05
Xchars to print digraphs for  [2489AOPRSZ]  
Xdigraph array(s): g(lobal); L(ine) W(ord) init; l(ine) w(ord) final; (X)/y  [gLX]  
Xignore spaces in adjacency count for vowels  [no]  
Xfile of labels to compute expectations for  [/dev/null]  
Xnum of chars to compute expect for (< 0 = sample size)  (-2000000000 to 2000000000)  [-1]  
XVowels identified by Sukhotin's algorithm: C O A 9 L 0
X                                Line                    Word
XLetter      Global      Initial       Final      Initial       Final
X0          0.00498      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.00000
X1          0.00000      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.00000
X2          1.30229     13.51583     2.31959      2.39829     1.63194
X3          0.11952      0.00000     0.42955      0.00000     0.42681
X4          4.81325     19.76048     0.00000     21.06981     0.06277
X5          0.00498      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
X6          0.04731      0.00000     1.20275      0.03767     0.03766
X7          0.01245      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
X8          9.93526     14.20017     2.31959      8.08639     1.19257
X9         13.21713     11.46279    49.31271      2.81266    53.05046
XA          7.63197      0.68435     0.25773      3.77951     0.07532
XB          0.75448      8.81095     0.00000      0.45203     0.08787
XC         14.16335      0.25663     0.17182      0.38925     0.18830
XD          0.05478      0.00000     0.51546      0.02511     0.13809
XE          7.06922      3.42173    14.26117      4.64591    14.67487
XF          6.95717      1.11206     0.17182      2.47363     0.33894
XG          0.02241      0.00000     0.08591      0.01256     0.07532
XH          0.00747      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
XI          0.01992      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.00000
XJ          0.37849      0.00000    10.30928      0.03767     0.36405
XK          0.01245      0.00000     0.17182      0.00000     0.02511
XL          0.00747      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
XM          1.76295      0.00000     5.06873      0.00000     7.98393
XN          1.38446      0.00000     3.60825      0.00000     6.23902
XO         13.15488      9.92301     0.94502     23.60623     0.70299
XP          3.05777      9.15312     0.00000      1.56956     0.11298
XQ          0.42580      0.25663     0.17182      0.41436     0.00000
XR          3.40139      0.51326     7.90378      1.70768    11.23525
XS          5.49303      2.82293     0.00000     14.85434     0.02511
XT          0.19422      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.85363
XU          0.08466      0.00000     0.08591      0.01256     0.28873
XV          0.23904      0.17109     0.25773      0.26369     0.01255
XW          0.08217      0.08554     0.00000      0.16323     0.00000
XX          0.74701      0.17109     0.00000      0.23857     0.02511
XY          0.03237      0.00000     0.00000      0.06278     0.00000
XZ          3.40388      3.67836     0.08591     10.88649     0.10043
XSample       40160         1169        1164         7964        7966
XEntropy    3.78204      3.29779     2.55583      3.17923     2.28786
X------------------------------------------------------
XDigraphs whose max frequency global, line initial, etc. > 5.000000%:
X                   line               word
X     global   initial  final    initial  final    wf/wi
X2A   0.5741   5.0347   0.0000   1.2934   0.0000   0.5281
X2O   0.3903   6.8576   0.0000   0.4565   0.0127   0.4275
X4O   6.0152  19.0972   0.0883  20.5935   0.1140   0.0000
X89   9.1405   0.4340  23.6540   1.3568  31.5056   0.1257
X8A   2.4609   6.8576   0.1765   5.3386   0.0127   0.0629
X94   0.0323   0.0000   0.0000   0.0254   0.0000  17.8675
X98   0.1000   0.1736   0.1765   0.1268   0.0000   5.1301
X9O   0.0290   0.0000   0.0000   0.0507   0.0000   9.8202
X9S   0.1064   1.6493   0.0000   0.1014   0.0000   5.0421
XAE   2.3835   0.1736   6.0018   0.7989   5.6477   0.0000
XAJ   0.4386   0.0000   9.2674   0.1775   0.3546   0.0000
XAM   2.2061   0.1736   4.9426   0.9511   7.8004   0.0000
XAN   1.7642   0.0000   3.7070   0.3424   6.1922   0.0000
XAR   2.3480   0.2604   3.7952   1.0525   7.2306   0.0000
XC8   7.6504   0.0000   0.6178   0.0127   0.7978   0.0377
XC9   3.3575   0.0000   5.2074   0.0000  12.0805   0.0251
XE9   0.4515   0.0000   6.5313   0.1141   0.7345   0.2515
XOE   5.1379   2.6042   6.6196   8.1664   8.6489   0.1006
XOF   5.8958   2.4306   0.0000   6.5052   0.1646   0.0754
XSC   4.6186   1.4757   0.0000   9.8783   0.0127   0.0000
XZC   3.3414   2.4306   0.0000   8.3693   0.0633   0.0000
X#     31005     1152     1133     7886     7897     7953
X------------------------------------------------------
XSelected global digraph frequencies (characters 2489AOPRSZ):
X(Row = 1st char, col = second)
X       2      4      8      9      A      O      P      R      S      Z   
X2   0.000  0.000  0.010  0.045  0.574  0.390  0.006  0.000  0.055  0.045 
X4   0.006  0.000  0.000  0.010  0.019  6.015  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.003 
X8   0.010  0.003  0.010  9.140  2.461  0.323  0.003  0.010  0.181  0.158 
X9   0.029  0.032  0.100  0.000  0.019  0.029  0.403  0.045  0.106  0.110 
XA   0.023  0.000  0.026  0.019  0.003  0.019  0.006  2.348  0.000  0.010 
XO   0.119  0.029  0.719  0.071  0.061  0.026  2.358  1.451  0.048  0.045 
XP   0.003  0.000  0.010  0.377  1.129  0.335  0.000  0.000  0.364  0.119 
XR   0.000  0.000  0.026  0.177  0.458  0.306  0.003  0.000  0.129  0.077 
XS   0.039  0.000  0.822  0.348  0.116  0.374  0.052  0.016  0.006  0.010 
XZ   0.010  0.000  0.255  0.139  0.081  0.242  0.019  0.003  0.010  0.000 
X********************************************************
XSelected line initial digraph frequencies (characters 2489AOPRSZ):
X(Row = 1st char, col = second)
X       2      4      8      9      A      O      P      R      S      Z   
X2   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087  5.035  6.858  0.000  0.000  0.608  0.781 
X4   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087 19.097  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087 
X8   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.434  6.858  1.215  0.000  0.000  2.604  2.865 
X9   0.174  0.000  0.174  0.000  0.347  0.000  3.125  0.000  1.649  2.170 
XA   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.260  0.000  0.000 
XO   0.087  0.087  0.521  0.087  0.260  0.000  2.344  0.608  0.174  0.347 
XP   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  1.389  3.125  0.000  0.000  2.778  1.128 
XR   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087  0.000  0.260  0.000  0.000  0.174  0.000 
XS   0.000  0.000  0.174  0.000  0.260  0.521  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000 
XZ   0.000  0.000  0.087  0.174  0.260  0.694  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000 
X********************************************************
XSelected wf/wi digraph frequencies (characters 2489AOPRSZ):
X(Row = 1st char, col = second)
X       2      4      8      9      A      O      P      R      S      Z   
X2   0.050  0.063  0.038  0.113  0.528  0.428  0.025  0.000  0.226  0.113 
X4   0.000  0.013  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.013  0.000  0.000  0.000 
X8   0.013  0.352  0.025  0.126  0.063  0.327  0.000  0.000  0.075  0.101 
X9   1.647 17.867  5.130  1.270  0.377  9.820  1.044  1.396  5.042  2.967 
XA   0.000  0.013  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.025  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.013 
XO   0.013  0.088  0.050  0.050  0.025  0.113  0.025  0.038  0.063  0.013 
XP   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.025  0.000  0.038  0.000  0.000  0.025  0.025 
XR   0.075  0.478  0.377  0.402  1.987  3.521  0.050  0.013  2.138  1.936 
XS   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.013  0.013 
XZ   0.000  0.025  0.013  0.013  0.000  0.025  0.000  0.000  0.013  0.013 
X********************************************************
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   0:   0 A pages,  10 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.02 1  0.00 2  0.97 3  0.26 4  2.34 5  0.00 6  0.07 7  0.02 8  9.78 
X9 11.25 A 13.50 B  0.66 C  7.79 D  0.07 E  4.94 F  9.12 G  0.00 H  0.00 
XI  0.06 J  0.96 K  0.05 L  0.03 M  3.98 N  1.16 O 13.23 P  2.35 Q  0.10 
XR  6.50 S  6.44 T  0.51 U  0.15 V  0.71 W  0.07 X  0.93 Y  0.06 Z  1.90 
X*****PAGES:
X 63[0.037]  64[0.079]  75[0.075]  76[0.036]  77[0.061]  78[0.043]  97[0.032] 
X 98[0.057] 107[0.047] 108[0.047] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   1:   0 A pages,  13 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.00 1  0.00 2  1.57 3  0.08 4  4.49 5  0.00 6  0.04 7  0.04 8 10.26 
X9 13.04 A  6.67 B  0.79 C 17.42 D  0.05 E  5.72 F  6.86 G  0.03 H  0.01 
XI  0.07 J  0.45 K  0.00 L  0.00 M  1.85 N  0.99 O 13.29 P  3.19 Q  0.55 
XR  2.82 S  5.23 T  0.20 U  0.15 V  0.22 W  0.07 X  0.80 Y  0.09 Z  2.94 
X*****PAGES:
X 59[0.058]  60[0.097]  80[0.054]  93[0.065] 111[0.080] 147[0.054] 150[0.045] 
X151[0.055] 153[0.057] 156[0.054] 161[0.042] 163[0.050] 165[0.048] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   2:   0 A pages,  10 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.02 1  0.00 2  1.68 3  0.19 4  2.27 5  0.00 6  0.07 7  0.04 8 12.93 
X9 16.30 A  7.63 B  1.26 C 13.95 D  0.00 E  3.84 F  5.78 G  0.00 H  0.00 
XI  0.02 J  0.87 K  0.07 L  0.00 M  1.62 N  0.32 O 10.48 P  4.08 Q  0.63 
XR  3.43 S  7.42 T  0.34 U  0.22 V  0.48 W  0.15 X  0.78 Y  0.03 Z  3.08 
X*****PAGES:
X 49[0.069]  50[0.066]  65[0.066]  66[0.083]  79[0.104]  83[0.060]  84[0.034] 
X 89[0.055]  90[0.045]  94[0.052] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   3:   0 A pages,  11 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.00 1  0.00 2  1.12 3  0.09 4  5.85 5  0.01 6  0.05 7  0.00 8  8.72 
X9 12.53 A  7.12 B  0.72 C 13.52 D  0.04 E  9.51 F  6.69 G  0.03 H  0.02 
XI  0.00 J  0.12 K  0.00 L  0.01 M  1.31 N  1.78 O 14.31 P  2.89 Q  0.42 
XR  3.00 S  5.20 T  0.12 U  0.03 V  0.13 W  0.07 X  0.66 Y  0.01 Z  3.93 
X*****PAGES:
X148[0.028] 149[0.038] 152[0.051] 154[0.039] 155[0.045] 157[0.063] 158[0.059] 
X159[0.048] 160[0.050] 162[0.028] 164[0.043] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
X 60B:---------------------+                                               
X 79B:--------------------+|                                               
X 64B:------------------+ ||                                               
X 98B:----------------+ | ||                                               
X 78B:--------------+ | | ||                                               
X 63B:-------------+| | | ||                                               
X 97B:-------------+++| | ||                                               
X 76B:--------------+|| | ||                                               
X 77B:-------------+||| | ||                                               
X107B:-------------+++++| ||                                               
X108B:-----------------+++||                                               
X111B:------------------+|||                                               
X 65B:----------------+ ||||                                               
X 66B:---------------+| ||||                                               
X 75B:---------------+++||||                                               
X 89B:----------------+|||||                                               
X 93B:---------------+||||||                                               
X 49B:--------------+|||||||                                               
X 90B:------------+ ||||||||                                               
X 50B:-----------+| ||||||||                                               
X 83B:----------+|| ||||||||                                               
X 84B:---------+||| ||||||||                                               
X 94B:---------+++++||||||||                                               
X 80B:------------+|||||||||                                               
X156B:-----------+||||||||||                                               
X 59B:---------+ |||||||||||                                               
X151B:-------+ | |||||||||||                                               
X161B:-------++| |||||||||||                                               
X150B:-------+|| |||||||||||                                               
X163B:-------++++|||||||||||                                               
X157B:--------+ ||||||||||||                                               
X158B:--------++||||||||||||                                               
X155B:--------+|||||||||||||                                               
X149B:------+ ||||||||||||||                                               
X152B:-----+| ||||||||||||||                                               
X148B:-+   || ||||||||||||||                                               
X154B:-++  || ||||||||||||||                                               
X159B:--++ || ||||||||||||||                                               
X162B:---++|| ||||||||||||||                                               
X164B:----++++||||||||||||||                                               
X160B:------+|||||||||||||||                                               
X147B:-----+||||||||||||||||                                               
X153B:----+|||||||||||||||||                                               
X165B:----++++++++++++++++++-                                              
X[ 121 ] voyn -: ls
X------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XDate: Thu, 29 Oct 1992 15:40-EST
XFrom: Karl.Kluge@G.GP.CS.CMU.EDU
XTo: voynich@rand.org
XSubject: Hierarchical Nearest Neighbor clustering
X
XJohn B. asks about the MST code. The basic clustering algorithm is
X	
X	1) Start with each data point in a separate cluster.
X	2) Find the pair of current clusters such that the distance between
X		some point in the first and some point in the second 
X		is the smallest over all points and all clusters.
X		Merge those two clusters.
X	3) Repeat step 2 until there is only 1 cluster
X
XThe weasel word in the above was "distance". In this case, I was using
XEuclidean norm between two normalized letter frequency distributions.  The way
Xthe clustering is done in practice is:
X
X	1) View the data points as forming a complete graphs with edges
X		weighted by the distance between them.
X	2) Compute the Minimum Spanning Tree of that graph.
X	3) Start with each data point in a separate cluster.
X	4) For each MST edge from shortest to longest, merge the
X		clusters containing the data points which that edge
X		connects.
X
XYou can draw a tree showing the pattern of merges (I was pressed for time, so I
Xdid it by having a 2-D character array for the dendrogram (tree), and making
Xtwo passes through the MST -- one to compute the depth at which each cluster
Xvanished, the second to draw the vertical connecting "|"'s).
X
XHere is the result for the language B pages. The way I use characters
Xto draw the dendrogram may be a little confusing, so as an example:
X
X 59B:---------+ 	Here, 151 and 161 cluster together. 150 and 163
X151B:-------+ |		cluster together. (151 161) then joins with
X161B:-------++| 	(150 163). 59 then joins with (151 161 150 163).
X150B:-------+|| 	The rule is that the cluster closer to the top
X163B:-------++++	is connected downward to the cluster it merges
X               |	with, whose line then extend further to the
X			right. That's how to tell that 150 merges with
X			163, not 161.
X
XAs I said, I was pressed for time, and was doing it in ASCII.
X
XTHIS IS THE B CORPUS USING MST-BASED NN-CLUSTERING
X[NN used to stand for "Nearest Neighbor" until the connectionists moved
Xinto the neighborhood]
X% grep "^.....B" voynich | s4test -c 2 -D n  -f 0.05
X[Letter and digraph frequency output deleted]
X------------------------------------------------------
X 60B:---------------------+                                               
X 79B:--------------------+|                                               
X 64B:------------------+ ||                                               
X 98B:----------------+ | ||                                               
X 78B:--------------+ | | ||                                               
X 63B:-------------+| | | ||                                               
X 97B:-------------+++| | ||                                               
X 76B:--------------+|| | ||                                               
X 77B:-------------+||| | ||                                               
X107B:-------------+++++| ||                                               
X108B:-----------------+++||                                               
X111B:------------------+|||                                               
X 65B:----------------+ ||||                                               
X 66B:---------------+| ||||                                               
X 75B:---------------+++||||                                               
X 89B:----------------+|||||                                               
X 93B:---------------+||||||                                               
X 49B:--------------+|||||||                                               
X 90B:------------+ ||||||||                                               
X 50B:-----------+| ||||||||                                               
X 83B:----------+|| ||||||||                                               
X 84B:---------+||| ||||||||                                               
X 94B:---------+++++||||||||                                               
X 80B:------------+|||||||||                                               
X156B:-----------+||||||||||                                               
X 59B:---------+ |||||||||||                                               
X151B:-------+ | |||||||||||                                               
X161B:-------++| |||||||||||                                               
X150B:-------+|| |||||||||||                                               
X163B:-------++++|||||||||||                                               
X157B:--------+ ||||||||||||                                               
X158B:--------++||||||||||||                                               
X155B:--------+|||||||||||||                                               
X149B:------+ ||||||||||||||                                               
X152B:-----+| ||||||||||||||                                               
X148B:-+   || ||||||||||||||                                               
X154B:-++  || ||||||||||||||                                               
X159B:--++ || ||||||||||||||                                               
X162B:---++|| ||||||||||||||                                               
X164B:----++++||||||||||||||                                               
X160B:------+|||||||||||||||                                               
X147B:-----+||||||||||||||||                                               
X153B:----+|||||||||||||||||                                               
X165B:----++++++++++++++++++-                                              
X-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'README' 'failed'
fi
# ============= Makefile ==============
if test -f 'Makefile' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'Makefile' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'Makefile' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'Makefile' &&
XINC_OPT = -I/usr/local/include/ -I./
XLIB_OPT = -L/usr/local/lib/ -L/lib/ 
XSRCS = getbool.c getfloat.c getint.c getstr.c
XSUN4CFLAGS = -g $(INC_OPT) $(LIB_OPT) 
XCC = gcc -traditional
X
Xvoyn: voyn_tool.c
X	$(CC) $(SUN4CFLAGS) -o voyn voyn_tool.c $(SRCS) /lib/libc.a -lm 
X	-rm *.o
X
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'Makefile' 'failed'
fi
# ============= voyn_tool.c ==============
if test -f 'voyn_tool.c' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'voyn_tool.c' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'voyn_tool.c' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'voyn_tool.c' &&
X#include <stdio.h>
X#include <string.h>
X#include <strings.h>
X#include <math.h>
X
X#define MAX_CLUST 60
X#define MAX_CHAR 64
X#define MAXWID 69
X
Xextern char *getstr();
Xextern int getbool(), getint();
Xextern float getfloat();
X
X#define SW_INIT(foo, bar)
X#define SW_DONE(foo, bar, baz)
X#define swdString(flag, prompt, deflt) getstr(prompt, deflt, new(char, 256))
X#define swBool(flag, prompt) getbool(prompt, 0)
X#define swdInt(flag, prompt, deflt) \
X   getint(prompt, -2000000000, 2000000000, (int) (deflt))
X#define swdFloat(flag, prompt, deflt) \
X   getfloat(prompt, -1000000000000.0, 1000000000000.0, (float) (deflt))
X#define swbdInt(flag, prompt, deflt, low, hi) \
X   getint(prompt, (int) (low), (int) (hi), (int) (deflt))
X#define swbdFloat(flag, prompt, deflt, low, hi) \
X   getfloat(prompt, (float) (low), (float) (hi), (float) (deflt))
X
X#define new(obtyp,size) ((obtyp *) malloc ((size) * sizeof(obtyp)))
X#define min(x,y) ((x) < (y) ? (x) : (y))
X#define max(x,y) ((x) > (y) ? (x) : (y))
X#define absval(x) (max((x), (-(x))))
X/* If pred, vt, else vf */
X#define sel(pred, vt, vf) ((pred) ? (vt) : (vf))
X/* Test for within delta of zero */
X#define ZDELT 0.0000001
X#define is_damn_near_zero(x) ((absval(x)) < ZDELT)
X
X#define sqr(x) ((x) * (x))
X#define chr_pos(alphabet, ch) \
X   sel((index((alphabet), (ch)) == NULL), -1, \
X       ((int) (index((alphabet), (ch)) - &(alphabet[0]))))
Xstatic int num_char;
X
X/* Random number generation: roll num sides-sided die plus dm */
Xstatic int roll(num, sides, dm)
Xint num, sides, dm;
X{
X   int die, result;
X
X   result = dm;
X   for (die = 1; die <= num; ++die)
X      result += 1 + (1.0 * sides * random())/(1.0 * 017777777777);
X   return(result); 
X}
X/*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
X#define MAXPTS 200
X#define MAXEDS ((MAXPTS * (MAXPTS - 1)) / 2)
X#define NDIM 36
X
X#define squash(carr, var, val) \
X   do {for (var = (val); carr[var] != -1; var = carr[var]);} while (0)
X
Xstruct POINT { double coord[NDIM];};
X/* Structure used for the queue of edges when building the MST */
Xstruct EDGEQUEUE { double dist; int i,j;};
X
X/* Data structures used in the disjoint-set union-find routines */
Xstatic int count[MAXPTS], name[MAXPTS], father[MAXPTS],
X           root[MAXPTS], element[MAXPTS], numels;
X
X/* Initialize the data structures for the disjoint-set union-find
X   routines. Algorithms from Aho, Hopcroft and Ullman "Design and
X   Analysis of Computer Algorithms" */
Xinitsets(npt)
Xint npt;
X   {
X      int i;
X  
X      for (i=0; i < npt; ++i) { name[i] = root[i] = element[i] = i;
X                                count[i] = 1; father[i] = 0;};
X      numels=npt;
X   }
X
X/* Find the name of the set containing vertex i */
Xfind(i)
Xint i;
X   {
X      int list[MAXPTS], j, k;
X
X      for (j=0; j < numels; ++j) list[j]=0;
X      j=element[i];
X      while (father[j] != 0) {list[j]=1; j=father[j];};
X      for (k=0; k < numels; ++k) if (list[k] != 0) father[k]=j;
X      return (name[j]);
X   }
X
X/* return the size of set i */
Xsize(i)
Xint i;
X   {
X      int j;
X
X      j=root[i];
X      return(count[j]);
X   }
X
X/* k = i U j */
Xsetunion(i,j,k)
Xint i,j,k;
X   {
X      int ri, rj, t, lrg, sm;
X
X      ri=root[i]; rj=root[j]; 
X      if (count[ri] > count[rj]) {t=j; j=i; i=t;};
X      lrg=root[j]; sm=root[i]; father[sm]=lrg; count[lrg]+=count[sm]; 
X      name[lrg]=k; root[k]=lrg;
X   }
X
X/* Heapify procedure */
Xsift(equeue, i, j)
Xint i, j;
Xstruct EDGEQUEUE equeue[MAXEDS];
X   {
X      int son, next;
X      struct EDGEQUEUE tempel;
X
X      next=i; son=2*next+1;
X      while (son < j) {
X         if (son < (j-1)) if (equeue[son+1].dist < equeue[son].dist)
X            ++son;
X         if (equeue[next].dist > equeue[son].dist) 
X            {tempel=equeue[next]; equeue[next]=equeue[son]; 
X             equeue[son]=tempel;};
X         next=son; son=2*son+1;
X      }
X   }
X
X/* Build and display the minimum spanning tree of a set of points */
Xmst (npt, plist, mstedges)
Xint npt;
Xstruct POINT plist[MAXPTS];
Xstruct EDGEQUEUE mstedges[MAXPTS];
X   {
X      struct EDGEQUEUE equeue[MAXEDS];
X      int i, j, l, numedge, msted;
X      int x1, x2, y1, y2, a, b, dim;
X      
X/* Initialize the points sets for building the MST */
X      initsets(npt);
X               
X/* Compute the distances between the points passed to the routine */
X      numedge = 0;
X      for (i=0; i < npt; ++i) for (j= i+1; j < npt; ++j)
X         {equeue[numedge].i = i; equeue[numedge].j = j; 
X          equeue[numedge].dist = 0.0;
X          for (dim = 0; dim < NDIM; dim++) 
X             equeue[numedge].dist += 
X                sqr(plist[i].coord[dim] - plist[j].coord[dim]);
X          equeue[numedge].dist = sqrt(equeue[numedge].dist);
X          ++numedge;};
X
X      msted = 0;
X      numedge = (npt*(npt-1))/2;
X/* Make the edges into a heap based on edge length (shortest first) */
X      for (i= (numedge/2); i >= 0; --i) sift(equeue, i, numedge);
X/* While there are still points to add to the spanning tree */
X      for (l=(numedge-1); (size(0) != npt); --l) {
X/* If the points connected by the shortest edge not examined yet belong
X   to different sets, merge the sets and add that edge to the MST */
X         a=find(equeue[0].i); b=find(equeue[0].j);
X/*         printf("Point %2d in set %2d, point %2d in set %2d. l=%2d\n",
X            equeue[0].i, a, equeue[0].j, b, l); */
X         if (a != b) {
X            setunion(a, b, min(a,b));
X            mstedges[msted].i = equeue[0].i; mstedges[msted].j = equeue[0].j;
X            mstedges[msted].dist = equeue[0].dist; ++msted;
X/* Display the new edge on the display device (whether poof or matrox) */
X            a = mstedges[msted-1].i; b = mstedges[msted-1].j; 
X/*            printf("Add edge %2d to %2d (dist=%20.2f)\n", a, b,
X                    equeue[0].dist); */
X	    };
X/* Delete the current smallest edge from the edge queue */
X         equeue[0]=equeue[l]; 
X/* Make the queue back into a heap */
X         sift(equeue, 0, l); 
X         };
X   }
X/*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
X/* Go through a line of text, incrementing the character count and appropriate
X   character frequency buckets. */
Xint scan_line(line, alphabet, freq, count)
Xchar *line, *alphabet;
Xdouble *freq;
Xint *count;
X{
X   int ch, pos;
X
X   for (ch = 0; ch < strlen(line); ch++) {
X      if (index(alphabet, line[ch]) != NULL) {
X         pos = (int) (index(alphabet, line[ch]) - &(alphabet[0]));
X         freq[pos] += 1.0; *count += 1;
X      }
X   }
X}
X
Xstatic int global = 0, word_init = 0, word_final = 0, line_init = 0,
X           line_final = 0, dg_count = 0, wi_dgc = 0, wf_dgc = 0,
X           li_dgc = 0, lf_dgc = 0, xs_dgc = 0;
Xstatic double wrld[MAX_CHAR], wd_init[MAX_CHAR], wd_final[MAX_CHAR], 
X              ln_init[MAX_CHAR], ln_final[MAX_CHAR], 
X              digraph[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR], wi_dg[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR],
X              wf_dg[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR], li_dg[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR],
X              max_dg[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR], dg_tot[MAX_CHAR],
X              lf_dg[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR], xs_dg[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR];
Xstatic char punc[10] = " /-#";
Xstatic double wd_entropy, li_entropy, lf_entropy, wi_entropy, wf_entropy;
Xstatic int contact[MAX_CHAR][MAX_CHAR], vow_sum[MAX_CHAR], vowel[MAX_CHAR];
Xstatic int ig_space;
X
Xint sukhotin_vowels(space_ignore)
Xint space_ignore;
X{
X   int i, j, k, mx_c, v_count;
X
X   v_count = 0;
X   for (i = 0; i < NDIM; i++) for (j = i; j < NDIM; j++)
X      if (i == j) contact[i][j] = vow_sum[i] = 0; 
X      else contact[i][j] = contact[j][i] = digraph[i][j] + digraph[j][i];
X   if (space_ignore) for (i = 0; i < NDIM; i++) for (j = i; j < NDIM; j++) {
X      contact[i][j] += xs_dg[i][j] + xs_dg[j][i]; 
X      contact[j][i] = contact[i][j];
X   }
X   for (i = 0; i < NDIM; i++) {
X      vowel[i] = -1; 
X      for (j = 0; j < NDIM; j++) vow_sum[i] += contact[i][j];
X   }
X   do {
X      k = -1; mx_c = 0;
X      for (i = 0; i < NDIM; i++) if ((vowel[i] < 0) && (vow_sum[i] > 0))
X         if (mx_c < vow_sum[i]) {k = i; mx_c = vow_sum[i];}
X      if (k >= 0) {
X         vowel[k] = v_count; v_count++;
X         for (i = 0; i < NDIM; i++) if (vowel[i] < 0) 
X            vow_sum[i] -= (2 * contact[i][k]);
X      }
X   } while (k >= 0);
X}
X
X#define incr_bin(alphabet, chr, index, array, count) \
X  do {index = chr_pos((alphabet), (chr)); \
X   if (index != -1) {array[index] += 1.0; count++;}} while (0)
X
X#define incr_digraph(alphabet, ch1, ch2, i1, i2, array, count) \
X  do {i1 = chr_pos((alphabet), (ch1)); i2 = chr_pos((alphabet), (ch2)); \
X   if ((i1 != -1) && (i2 != -1)) {array[i1][i2] += 1.0; count++;}} while (0)
X
Xint new_scan_line(line, alphabet)
Xchar *line, *alphabet;
X{
X   int ch, pos, ch2;
X   char last, next;
X
X   for (ch = 0; ch < strlen(line); ch++) {
X      if (ch == 0) last = punc[0];
X      if (ch == (strlen(line) - 1)) next = punc[2]; else next = line[ch + 1];
X      /* Increment the global counts */      
X      incr_bin(alphabet, line[ch], pos, wrld, global);
X      incr_digraph(alphabet, last, line[ch], pos, ch2, digraph, dg_count);
X      /* If the next character is a mss space, update the word final
X         digraph count */
X      if (next == punc[1]) 
X         incr_digraph(alphabet, last, line[ch], pos, ch2, wf_dg, wf_dgc);
X      /* If this character is a mss space, update the word-final count using
X         the last character */
X      if (chr_pos(punc, line[ch]) == 1) {
X         incr_bin(alphabet, last, pos, wd_final, word_final);
X         /* Also update the cross-space digraph count */
X         incr_digraph(alphabet, last, next, pos, ch2, xs_dg, xs_dgc);
X      }
X      /* If the last character was a mss space, update the word-initial count
X         using the current character */
X      if (chr_pos(punc, last) == 1) {
X         incr_bin(alphabet, line[ch], pos, wd_init, word_init);
X         /* Also update the word-initial digraph count */
X         incr_digraph(alphabet, line[ch], next, pos, ch2, wi_dg, wi_dgc);
X      }
X      /* If the current character is a "-" or "#" or the last character on
X         the line, update the line-final count using the last character */
X      if ((chr_pos(punc, line[ch]) > 1) || (ch == (strlen(line) - 1))) 
X         incr_bin(alphabet, last, pos, ln_final, line_final);
X      /* If the next character is end-of-line or end-of-paragraph, update
X         line-final digraphs */
X      if ((next == punc[2]) || (next == punc[3])) 
X         incr_digraph(alphabet, last, line[ch], pos, ch2, lf_dg, lf_dgc);
X      /* If the last character is an ASCII space, update the line-initial
X         count using the current character and the line-initial digraph
X         count. */
X      if (chr_pos(punc, last) == 0) {
X         incr_bin(alphabet, line[ch], pos, ln_init, line_init);
X         incr_digraph(alphabet, line[ch], next, pos, ch2, li_dg, li_dgc);
X      }
X      /* If the last character was an end-of-line update the line-initial
X         char freq and digraph counts (handle those big breaks due to
X         plant stems. */
X      if (last == punc[2]) {
X         incr_bin(alphabet, line[ch], pos, ln_init, line_init);
X         incr_digraph(alphabet, line[ch], next, pos, ch2, li_dg, li_dgc);
X      }
X      last = line[ch];
X   }
X}
X
Xint clear_freqs()
X{
X   int ind, i2;
X
X   for (ind = 0; ind < num_char; ind++) {
X      wrld[ind] = wd_init[ind] = wd_final[ind] = ln_init[ind] = 
X         ln_final[ind] = dg_tot[ind] = 0.0;
X      for (i2 = 0; i2 < num_char; i2++) 
X         digraph[ind][i2] = wi_dg[ind][i2] = wf_dg[ind][i2] = 
X            max_dg[ind][i2] = li_dg[ind][i2] = lf_dg[ind][i2] = 
X            xs_dg[ind][i2] = 0.0;
X   }
X   wd_entropy = li_entropy = lf_entropy = wi_entropy = wf_entropy = 0.0;
X}
X
X/* Entropy formula: h = -sigma(p[i] log2(p[i])) */
X
X#define norm_digrams(i1, i2, array, count, bounds, max_arr) \
X   do {if ((count) != 0) \
X        for (i1 = 0; i1 < (bounds); i1++) for (i2 = 0; i2 < (bounds); i2++) {\
X           array[i1][i2] /= (float) (count); \
X           max_arr[i1][i2] = max(max_arr[i1][i2], array[i1][i2]);}} while (0)
X
X#define norm_freq(i1, array, count, bounds, entropy) \
X   do {if ((count) != 0) \
X         for (i1 = 0; i1 < (bounds); i1++) {\
X            array[i1] /= (float) (count); \
X            if (!(is_damn_near_zero(array[i1]))) \
X               entropy -= (array[i1] * log((double) array[i1]) / \
X                  log((double) 2.0));}} while (0)
X
Xint norm_freqs()
X{
X   int pos, p2;
X
X   sukhotin_vowels(ig_space);
X   norm_digrams(pos, p2, digraph, dg_count, num_char, max_dg);
X   norm_digrams(pos, p2, wf_dg, wf_dgc, num_char, max_dg);
X   norm_digrams(pos, p2, li_dg, li_dgc, num_char, max_dg);
X   norm_digrams(pos, p2, wi_dg, wi_dgc, num_char, max_dg);
X   norm_digrams(pos, p2, lf_dg, lf_dgc, num_char, max_dg);
X   norm_digrams(pos, p2, xs_dg, xs_dgc, num_char, max_dg);
X   norm_freq(pos, wrld, global, num_char, wd_entropy);
X   norm_freq(pos, wd_init, word_init, num_char, wi_entropy);
X   norm_freq(pos, ln_init, line_init, num_char, li_entropy);
X   norm_freq(pos, wd_final, word_final, num_char, wf_entropy);
X   norm_freq(pos, ln_final, line_final, num_char, lf_entropy);
X   for (pos = 0; pos < NDIM; pos++) for (p2 = 0; p2 < NDIM; p2++)
X      dg_tot[pos] += digraph[pos][p2];
X}
X
Xdouble string_prob(str, alphabet)
Xchar *str, *alphabet;
X{
X   int chr, i1, i2;
X   double result;
X
X   i1 = chr_pos(alphabet, str[0]);
X   if (i1 < 0) return(0.0);
X   result = wrld[i1];
X   for (chr = 1; chr < strlen(str); chr++) {
X      i2 = chr_pos(alphabet, str[chr]);
X      if (i2 < 0) return(0.0);
X      result *= (digraph[i1][i2] / dg_tot[i1]);
X      i1 = i2;
X   }
X   return(result);
X}
X
Xint string_expect(f_name, alphabet, norm)
Xchar *f_name, *alphabet;
Xint norm;
X{
X   FILE *s_file;
X   char label[100];
X   int n_read;
X   double pval;
X
X   s_file = fopen(f_name, "r"); if (s_file == NULL) return(0);
X   for (;fscanf(s_file, "%s", label) > 0; ) { 
X      pval = string_prob(label, alphabet);
X      printf("String [%15s]: p = %.3E, %7.2f expected\n", 
X             label, pval, pval * sel((norm > 0), norm, global));
X   }
X   printf("--------------------------------------------------------\n");
X   fclose(s_file);
X}
X
Xstatic char digraph_types[10]="gLlWwX";
Xstatic char *dg_type[7] = {"global", "line initial", "line final",
X                           "word initial", "word final", "wf/wi", NULL};
Xint print_digraphs(which, alphabet, subset)
Xchar which, *alphabet, *subset;
X{
X   int pos, i1, p2, i2, dgt;
X   double dg_val;
X 
X   dgt = chr_pos(digraph_types, which); if (dgt < 0) return(0);
X   printf("Selected %s digraph frequencies (characters %s):\n", 
X          dg_type[dgt], subset);
X   printf("(Row = 1st char, col = second)\n");
X   printf("    ");
X   for (pos = 0; pos < strlen(subset); pos++) {
X      i1 = chr_pos(alphabet, subset[pos]); 
X      if (i1 != -1) printf("   %c   ", subset[pos]);
X   }
X   printf("\n");
X   for (pos = 0; pos < strlen(subset); pos++) {
X      i1 = chr_pos(alphabet, subset[pos]); 
X      if (i1 != -1) {
X         printf("%c  ", subset[pos]);
X         for (p2 = 0; p2 < strlen(subset); p2++) {
X            i2 = chr_pos(alphabet, subset[p2]);
X            if (dgt == 0) dg_val = digraph[i1][i2];
X            else if (dgt == 1) dg_val = li_dg[i1][i2];
X            else if (dgt == 2) dg_val = lf_dg[i1][i2];
X            else if (dgt == 3) dg_val = wi_dg[i1][i2];
X            else if (dgt == 4) dg_val = wf_dg[i1][i2];
X            else if (dgt == 5) dg_val = xs_dg[i1][i2];
X            if (i2 != -1) printf("%6.3f ", 100.0 * dg_val);
X	 }
X         printf("\n");
X      }
X   }
X   printf("********************************************************\n");
X}
X
Xint print_freqs(alphabet, subset, dg_thresh, which)
Xchar *alphabet, *subset, *which;
Xfloat dg_thresh;
X{
X   int pos, p2, i1, i2, just_linefed;
X
X   printf("Vowels identified by Sukhotin's algorithm:");
X   for (pos = 0; pos < NDIM; pos++) for (i1 = 0; i1 < NDIM; i1++)
X      if (vowel[i1] == pos) printf(" %c", alphabet[i1]);
X   printf("\n"); 
X   printf("                                Line                    Word\n");
X   printf("Letter      Global      Initial       Final      ");
X   printf("Initial       Final\n");
X   for (pos = 0; pos < num_char; pos++) 
X      printf("%c        %9.5f    %9.5f   %9.5f    %9.5f   %9.5f\n",
X             alphabet[pos], 100.0 * wrld[pos], 100.0 * ln_init[pos],
X             100.0 * ln_final[pos], 100.0 * wd_init[pos],
X             100.0 * wd_final[pos]);
X   printf("Sample %11d  %11d %11d  %11d %11d\n", global, line_init, 
X          line_final, word_init, word_final);
X   printf("Entropy  %9.5f    %9.5f   %9.5f    %9.5f   %9.5f\n", wd_entropy,
X          li_entropy, lf_entropy, wi_entropy, wf_entropy);
X   printf("------------------------------------------------------\n");
X   printf("Digraphs whose max frequency global, line initial, etc. > %f%%:\n",
X          100.0 * dg_thresh);
X   printf("                   line               word\n");
X   printf("     global   initial  final    initial  final    wf/wi\n");
X   for (i1 = 0; i1 < num_char; i1++) for (i2 = 0; i2 < num_char; i2++) 
X      if (max_dg[i1][i2] > dg_thresh) 
X         printf("%c%c %8.4f %8.4f %8.4f %8.4f %8.4f %8.4f\n", alphabet[i1],
X                alphabet[i2], 100.0 * digraph[i1][i2], 100.0 * li_dg[i1][i2], 
X                100.0 * lf_dg[i1][i2], 100.0 * wi_dg[i1][i2], 
X                100.0 * wf_dg[i1][i2], 100.0 * xs_dg[i1][i2]);
X   printf("#  %8d %8d %8d %8d %8d %8d\n", dg_count, li_dgc, lf_dgc, 
X          wi_dgc, wf_dgc, xs_dgc);
X   printf("------------------------------------------------------\n");
X   for (pos = 0; pos < strlen(which); pos++)
X      print_digraphs(which[pos], alphabet, subset);
X}
X
Xstatic char currier[50] = "0123456789ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ";
Xstatic char space[2] = " ", lang[3] = "AB", dend_chars[10] = " -+|";
Xstruct dend_node {
X   struct dend_node *parent, *left, *right; int page; char pg_hand;};
Xstatic char dend_array[MAXPTS][MAXPTS + 5], dend_hand[MAXPTS];
Xstatic int dend_line_id[MAXPTS];
Xstatic int dend_next_line = 0;
X
Xint find_dend_rc(page, row, col)
Xint page, *row, *col;
X{
X   int pg;
X
X   *row = -1;
X   for (pg = 0; pg < dend_next_line; pg++) 
X      if (dend_line_id[pg] == page) *row = pg;
X   if (*row < 0) return(0);
X   for (*col = 0; ((dend_array[*row][*col] != dend_chars[0]) && 
X                   (*col < (MAXPTS + 3))); *col += 1);
X   *col -= 1;
X   if ((*col >= MAXWID) || (*col < 0)) return(1);
X   return(2);
X}
X
Xstruct dend_node *find_root(node)
Xstruct dend_node *node;
X{
X   struct dend_node *ptr;
X
X   for (ptr = node; (ptr->parent != NULL); ptr = ptr->parent);
X   return(ptr);
X}
X
Xint max_depth(node)
Xstruct dend_node *node;
X{
X   int left_dep, right_dep;
X
X   if (node->left == NULL) return(0);
X   left_dep = max_depth(node->left); right_dep = max_depth(node->right);
X   return(1 + max(left_dep, right_dep));
X}
X
Xint merge_nodes(n1, n2)
Xstruct dend_node *n1, *n2;
X{
X   struct dend_node *p1, *p2, *newp;
X
X   p1 = find_root(n1); p2 = find_root(n2); newp = new(struct dend_node, 1);
X   newp->left = p1; newp->right = p2; newp->parent = NULL;
X   p1->parent = p2->parent = newp;
X}
X
Xint print_tree(node, depth)
Xstruct dend_node *node;
Xint depth;
X{
X   int bar;
X
X   if (node->left == NULL) {
X      dend_line_id[dend_next_line] = node->page;
X      dend_hand[dend_next_line] = node->pg_hand;
X      for (bar = 0; bar < depth; bar++) 
X         dend_array[dend_next_line][bar] = dend_chars[1];
X      dend_next_line++;
X      return(0);
X   }
X   else {
X      print_tree(node->left, depth - 1); 
X      print_tree(node->right, depth - 1); return(0);
X   }
X}   
X
Xmain(argc, argv)
Xint argc; char *argv[];
X{
X   struct dend_node dend_tree[MAXPTS];
X   char line_buf[1000], *mss_name, chr, *postfix, hand[MAXPTS], 
X        *subset, *which, *label_file, *input_file;
X   FILE *mss; struct POINT plist[MAXPTS]; struct EDGEQUEUE mst_ed[MAXPTS];
X   double folio_freqs[MAX_CHAR], page_freqs[MAXPTS][MAX_CHAR], 
X          clust_means[MAX_CLUST][MAX_CHAR];
X   double this_dist, min_dist, dg_cutoff, pg_dist[MAXPTS];
X   int folio_char_count, cur_folio, this_folio, converge, best_clust, clust,
X       clust_npage[MAX_CLUST], page, clust_anum[MAX_CLUST], do_clust, seed, 
X       clust_bnum[MAX_CLUST], just_linefed, num_clust, clust_lab[MAXPTS], ch,
X       page_list[MAXPTS], pnum, pg_lab[MAXPTS], pg_clust[MAXPTS], num_pg;
X   int s1, s2, edge, clust_left, clust_num[MAXPTS], dr1, dc1, dr2, dc2, norm;
X
X   SW_INIT(argc, argv);
X   input_file = 
X      swdString("-F", "data file", "/n/krusty/s/kckluge/voynich/voynich");
X   do_clust = swbdInt("-c", 
X                      "page cluster: 0 none; 1 nearest mean; 2 MST; 3 both",
X                      1, 0, 3);
X   num_clust = swbdInt("-n", "number of clusters", min(10, MAX_CLUST), 2, 
X                       MAX_CLUST);
X   seed = swbdInt("-s", "RNG seed", 1963, 0, 10000000);
X   dg_cutoff = swbdFloat("-f", "digraph frequency cutoff", 0.01, 0.0, 1.0);
X   subset = swdString("-d", "chars to print digraphs for", "2489AOPRSZ");
X   which = swdString("-D", 
X"digraph array(s): g(lobal); L(ine) W(ord) init; l(ine) w(ord) final; (X)/y",
X                     "gLX");
X   ig_space = swBool("-i", "ignore spaces in adjacency count for vowels");
X   label_file = swdString("-l", "file of labels to compute expectations for",
X                          "/dev/null");
X   norm = swdInt("-e", 
X                 "num of chars to compute expect for (< 0 = sample size)",
X                 -1);
X   SW_DONE(argc, argv, "");
X
X   mss = NULL;
X   mss = fopen(input_file, "r");
X   if (mss == NULL) {
X      printf("Error: file %s could not be opened.\n", input_file);
X      exit();
X   }
X
X/* Zero the global frequency arrays */
X   num_char = strlen(currier); clear_freqs(); srandom(seed);
X   for (s1 = 0; s1 < MAXPTS; s1++) for (s2 = 0; s2 < (MAXPTS + 5); s2++)
X      dend_array[s1][s2] = dend_chars[0];
X
X/* Calculate the normalized relative frequencies and assign random
X   initial cluster labels */
X   cur_folio = -1; for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) folio_freqs[ch] = 0;
X   folio_char_count = 0; pnum = -1;
X   for (;(fgets(line_buf, 1000, mss) != NULL);) {
X      sscanf(line_buf, "%3d", &this_folio);
X      postfix = strchr(&(line_buf[0]), space[0]);
X      new_scan_line(postfix, currier);
X      if (this_folio == cur_folio) {
X         postfix = strchr(&(line_buf[0]), space[0]);
X         scan_line(postfix, currier, folio_freqs, &folio_char_count);
X      }
X      else {
X         if (cur_folio >= 0) {
X            for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) {
X               page_freqs[pnum][ch] = 
X                  folio_freqs[ch] / (float) folio_char_count;
X               plist[pnum].coord[ch] = page_freqs[pnum][ch];
X	    }
X            page_list[pnum] = cur_folio; pg_lab[pnum] = line_buf[5];
X            pg_clust[pnum] = roll(1, num_clust, -1); clust_lab[pnum] = -1;
X            clust_num[pnum] = 0; 
X            dend_tree[pnum].parent = dend_tree[pnum].left = 
X               dend_tree[pnum].right = NULL;
X            dend_tree[pnum].page = cur_folio;
X            dend_tree[pnum].pg_hand = pg_lab[pnum];
X	 }
X         cur_folio = this_folio; pnum++; folio_char_count = 0;
X         for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) folio_freqs[ch] = 0;
X         postfix = strchr(&(line_buf[0]), space[0]);
X         scan_line(postfix, currier, folio_freqs, &folio_char_count);
X         hand[pnum] = line_buf[5];
X      }
X   }
X   num_pg = pnum;
X
X/* Print the relative frequency information */
X   norm_freqs(); print_freqs(currier, subset, dg_cutoff, which);
X   string_expect(label_file, currier, norm);
X   if (do_clust == 0) exit(1);
X
X/* Now compute the cluster means and reclassify until convergance */
X   if ((do_clust == 1) || (do_clust == 3)) {
X      converge = 0;
X      for (; !(converge); ){
X         /* Zero the cluster means array */
X         for (clust = 0; clust < num_clust; clust++) {
X            clust_npage[clust] = 0; 
X            for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) clust_means[clust][ch] = 0;
X         }
X         /* Compute the cluster means */
X         for (page = 0; page < num_pg; page++) {
X            clust_npage[pg_clust[page]]++;
X            for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) 
X               clust_means[pg_clust[page]][ch] += page_freqs[page][ch];
X         }
X         for (clust = 0; clust < num_clust; clust++)
X            for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) 
X               clust_means[clust][ch] /= (float) clust_npage[clust];
X         /* Reclassify the pages based on the new cluster means */
X         converge = 1;
X         for (page = 0; page < num_pg; page++) {
X            best_clust = 0;
X            min_dist = 0; 
X            for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) 
X               min_dist += sqr(clust_means[0][ch] - page_freqs[page][ch]);
X            min_dist = sqrt((double) min_dist);
X            for (clust = 1; clust < num_clust; clust++) 
X               if (clust_npage[clust] != 0) {
X                  this_dist = 0; 
X                  for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) 
X                     this_dist += 
X                        sqr(clust_means[clust][ch] - page_freqs[page][ch]);
X                  this_dist = sqrt((double) this_dist);
X                  if (this_dist < min_dist) {
X                     min_dist = this_dist; best_clust = clust;
X		  }
X	       }
X            if (best_clust != pg_clust[page]) converge = 0;
X            pg_clust[page] = best_clust; pg_dist[page] = min_dist;
X	 }
X      }
X
X      for (clust = 0; clust < num_clust; clust++) 
X         clust_anum[clust] = clust_bnum[clust] = 0;
X      for (page = 0; page < num_pg; page++) 
X         if (index(lang, hand[page]) == &(lang[0])) 
X            clust_anum[pg_clust[page]]++;
X         else clust_bnum[pg_clust[page]]++;
X
X   /* Print the mean relative frequencies for each cluster and the D'Imperio
X      page number of the folios in that cluster */
X      for (clust = 0; clust < num_clust; clust++) {
X         printf("Cluster %3d: %3d A pages, %3d B pages. Mean:\n", 
X                clust, clust_anum[clust], clust_bnum[clust]);
X         just_linefed = 1;
X         if ((clust_anum[clust] + clust_bnum[clust]) > 0) {
X            for (ch = 0; ch < num_char; ch++) {
X               printf("%c %5.2f ", currier[ch], 
X                      100.0 * clust_means[clust][ch]);
X               just_linefed = 0;
X               if ((ch % 9) == 8) {printf("\n"); just_linefed = 1;}
X	    }
X	 }
X         if (!(just_linefed)) printf("\n");
X         printf("*****PAGES:\n"); pnum = -1; just_linefed = 1;
X         for (page = 0; page < num_pg; page++) {
X            if (pg_clust[page] == clust) {
X               pnum++; printf("%3d[%5.3f] ", page_list[page], pg_dist[page]); 
X               just_linefed = 0;
X               if ((pnum % 7) == 6) {printf("\n"); just_linefed = 1;} 
X	    }
X	 }
X         if (!(just_linefed)) printf("\n");
X         printf("--------------------------------------------------------\n");
X      }
X   }
X   if ((do_clust == 2) || (do_clust == 3)) {
X      mst(num_pg, plist, mst_ed); clust_left = num_pg; 
X      for (edge = 0; edge < (num_pg - 1); edge++) {
X         squash(clust_lab, s1, mst_ed[edge].i);
X         squash(clust_lab, s2, mst_ed[edge].j);
X         if (s1 != s2) {
X            clust_lab[min(s1, s2)] = max(s1, s2); 
X            merge_nodes(&(dend_tree[min(s1, s2)]), 
X                        &(dend_tree[max(s1, s2)]));
X	 }
X      }
X      print_tree(find_root(&(dend_tree[0])), 
X                 2 + max_depth(find_root(&(dend_tree[0]))));
X
X      for (page = 0; page < num_pg; page++) clust_lab[page] = -1;
X      for (edge = 0; edge < (num_pg - 1); edge++) {
X         squash(clust_lab, s1, mst_ed[edge].i);
X         squash(clust_lab, s2, mst_ed[edge].j);
X         if (s1 != s2) {
X            clust_lab[min(s1, s2)] = max(s1, s2);
X            if (find_dend_rc(page_list[min(s1, s2)], &dr1, &dc1) == 2)
X               if (find_dend_rc(page_list[max(s1, s2)], &dr2, &dc2) == 2) 
X                  if (dc1 == dc2) {
X                     dend_array[dr1][dc1] = dend_array[dr2][dc2] = 
X                        dend_chars[2];
X                     for (page = min(dr1, dr2) + 1; page < max(dr1, dr2);
X                          page++) dend_array[page][dc1] = dend_chars[3];
X                     dend_array[max(dr1, dr2)][dc1 + 1] = dend_chars[1];
X		  }
X	 }
X      }
X
X      for (page = 0; page < num_pg; page++) {
X         printf("%3d%c:", dend_line_id[page], dend_hand[page]);
X         for (s1 = 0; s1 < MAXWID; s1++) printf("%c", dend_array[page][s1]);
X         printf("\n");
X      }
X   }
X}
X
X/* Here are the results for the B corpus, computing expected occurances for
X   the Pisces labels from the digraph matrix, and doing both hierarchical
X   NN clustering and basic Isodata:
X
Xegrep "^.....B " voynich | \
X   s4test -c 3 -n 4 -f 0.05 -l pisces.labels -n 4 -s 369150
XVowels identified by Sukhotin's algorithm: C O A 9 L 0
X                                Line                    Word
XLetter      Global      Initial       Final      Initial       Final
X0          0.00498      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.00000
X1          0.00000      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.00000
X2          1.30229     13.51583     2.40550      2.39829     1.63194
X3          0.11952      0.00000     0.42955      0.00000     0.42681
X4          4.81325     19.76048     0.00000     21.06981     0.06277
X5          0.00498      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
X6          0.04731      0.00000     1.20275      0.03767     0.03766
X7          0.01245      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
X8          9.93526     14.20017     2.31959      8.08639     1.19257
X9         13.21713     11.46279    49.22680      2.81266    53.05046
XA          7.63197      0.68435     0.25773      3.77951     0.07532
XB          0.75448      8.81095     0.00000      0.45203     0.08787
XC         14.16335      0.25663     0.17182      0.38925     0.18830
XD          0.05478      0.00000     0.51546      0.02511     0.13809
XE          7.06922      3.42173    14.17526      4.64591    14.67487
XF          6.95717      1.11206     0.17182      2.47363     0.33894
XG          0.02241      0.00000     0.08591      0.01256     0.07532
XH          0.00747      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
XI          0.01992      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.00000
XJ          0.37849      0.00000    10.22337      0.03767     0.36405
XK          0.01245      0.00000     0.17182      0.00000     0.02511
XL          0.00747      0.00000     0.08591      0.00000     0.01255
XM          1.76295      0.00000     5.06873      0.00000     7.98393
XN          1.38446      0.00000     3.60825      0.00000     6.23902
XO         13.15488      9.92301     1.11684     23.60623     0.70299
XP          3.05777      9.15312     0.00000      1.56956     0.11298
XQ          0.42580      0.25663     0.17182      0.41436     0.00000
XR          3.40139      0.51326     7.90378      1.70768    11.23525
XS          5.49303      2.82293     0.00000     14.85434     0.02511
XT          0.19422      0.00000     0.00000      0.00000     0.85363
XU          0.08466      0.00000     0.08591      0.01256     0.28873
XV          0.23904      0.17109     0.25773      0.26369     0.01255
XW          0.08217      0.08554     0.00000      0.16323     0.00000
XX          0.74701      0.17109     0.00000      0.23857     0.02511
XY          0.03237      0.00000     0.00000      0.06278     0.00000
XZ          3.40388      3.67836     0.08591     10.88649     0.10043
XSample       40160         1169        1164         7964        7966
XEntropy    3.78204      3.29779     2.56570      3.17923     2.28786
X------------------------------------------------------
XDigraphs whose max frequency global, line initial, etc. > 5.000000%:
X                   line               word
X     global   initial  final    initial  final    wf/wi
X2A   0.5741   5.0347   0.0879   1.2934   0.0000   0.5281
X2O   0.3903   6.8576   0.0000   0.4565   0.0127   0.4275
X4O   6.0152  19.0972   0.0879  20.5935   0.1140   0.0000
X89   9.1405   0.4340  23.5501   1.3568  31.5056   0.1257
X8A   2.4609   6.8576   0.1757   5.3386   0.0127   0.0629
X94   0.0323   0.0000   0.0000   0.0254   0.0000  17.8675
X98   0.1000   0.1736   0.1757   0.1268   0.0000   5.1301
X9O   0.0290   0.0000   0.0000   0.0507   0.0000   9.8202
X9S   0.1064   1.6493   0.0000   0.1014   0.0000   5.0421
XAE   2.3835   0.1736   5.9754   0.7989   5.6477   0.0000
XAJ   0.4386   0.0000   9.3146   0.1775   0.3546   0.0000
XAM   2.2061   0.1736   4.9209   0.9511   7.8004   0.0000
XAN   1.7642   0.0000   3.6907   0.3424   6.1922   0.0000
XAR   2.3480   0.2604   3.7786   1.0525   7.2306   0.0000
XC8   7.6504   0.0000   0.6151   0.0127   0.7978   0.0377
XC9   3.3575   0.0000   5.1845   0.0000  12.0805   0.0251
XE9   0.4515   0.0000   6.5905   0.1141   0.7345   0.2515
XOE   5.1379   2.6042   6.7663   8.1664   8.6489   0.1006
XOF   5.8958   2.4306   0.0000   6.5052   0.1646   0.0754
XSC   4.6186   1.4757   0.0000   9.8783   0.0127   0.0000
XZC   3.3414   2.4306   0.0000   8.3693   0.0633   0.0000
X#     31005     1152     1138     7886     7897     7953
X------------------------------------------------------
XSelected global digraph frequencies (characters 2489AOPRSZ):
X(Row = 1st char, col = second)
X       2      4      8      9      A      O      P      R      S      Z   
X2   0.000  0.000  0.010  0.045  0.574  0.390  0.006  0.000  0.055  0.045 
X4   0.006  0.000  0.000  0.010  0.019  6.015  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.003 
X8   0.010  0.003  0.010  9.140  2.461  0.323  0.003  0.010  0.181  0.158 
X9   0.029  0.032  0.100  0.000  0.019  0.029  0.403  0.045  0.106  0.110 
XA   0.023  0.000  0.026  0.019  0.003  0.019  0.006  2.348  0.000  0.010 
XO   0.119  0.029  0.719  0.071  0.061  0.026  2.358  1.451  0.048  0.045 
XP   0.003  0.000  0.010  0.377  1.129  0.335  0.000  0.000  0.364  0.119 
XR   0.000  0.000  0.026  0.177  0.458  0.306  0.003  0.000  0.129  0.077 
XS   0.039  0.000  0.822  0.348  0.116  0.374  0.052  0.016  0.006  0.010 
XZ   0.010  0.000  0.255  0.139  0.081  0.242  0.019  0.003  0.010  0.000 
X********************************************************
XSelected line initial digraph frequencies (characters 2489AOPRSZ):
X(Row = 1st char, col = second)
X       2      4      8      9      A      O      P      R      S      Z   
X2   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087  5.035  6.858  0.000  0.000  0.608  0.781 
X4   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087 19.097  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087 
X8   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.434  6.858  1.215  0.000  0.000  2.604  2.865 
X9   0.174  0.000  0.174  0.000  0.347  0.000  3.125  0.000  1.649  2.170 
XA   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.260  0.000  0.000 
XO   0.087  0.087  0.521  0.087  0.260  0.000  2.344  0.608  0.174  0.347 
XP   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  1.389  3.125  0.000  0.000  2.778  1.128 
XR   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.087  0.000  0.260  0.000  0.000  0.174  0.000 
XS   0.000  0.000  0.174  0.000  0.260  0.521  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000 
XZ   0.000  0.000  0.087  0.174  0.260  0.694  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000 
X********************************************************
XSelected wf/wi digraph frequencies (characters 2489AOPRSZ):
X(Row = 1st char, col = second)
X       2      4      8      9      A      O      P      R      S      Z   
X2   0.050  0.063  0.038  0.113  0.528  0.428  0.025  0.000  0.226  0.113 
X4   0.000  0.013  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.013  0.000  0.000  0.000 
X8   0.013  0.352  0.025  0.126  0.063  0.327  0.000  0.000  0.075  0.101 
X9   1.647 17.867  5.130  1.270  0.377  9.820  1.044  1.396  5.042  2.967 
XA   0.000  0.013  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.025  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.013 
XO   0.013  0.088  0.050  0.050  0.025  0.113  0.025  0.038  0.063  0.013 
XP   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.025  0.000  0.038  0.000  0.000  0.025  0.025 
XR   0.075  0.478  0.377  0.402  1.987  3.521  0.050  0.013  2.138  1.936 
XS   0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.013  0.013 
XZ   0.000  0.025  0.013  0.013  0.000  0.025  0.000  0.000  0.013  0.013 
X********************************************************
XString [        OPAR/AJ]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [        OPAR/AE]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [        OPAE/AR]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [        OPAE/AJ]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [        8OEARAJ]: p = 1.665E-07,    0.01 expected
XString [         OFARAJ]: p = 6.736E-05,    2.71 expected
XString [        OPCO2AE]: p = 4.119E-07,    0.02 expected
XString [         2AEOE2]: p = 9.201E-07,    0.04 expected
XString [       OFAE/8AE]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [         9FOEAM]: p = 7.003E-06,    0.28 expected
XString [        OPAEAE6]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [          9FAR9]: p = 5.909E-04,   23.73 expected
XString [           OPAR]: p = 1.266E-03,   50.84 expected
XString [            OP9]: p = 1.773E-03,   71.21 expected
XString [        OF9/O89]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [         OP9/AR]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [          OFAEA]: p = 2.177E-04,    8.74 expected
XString [          OPO89]: p = 4.939E-05,    1.98 expected
XString [          OPAE8]: p = 1.119E-04,    4.50 expected
XString [        OPAE8AR]: p = 5.270E-06,    0.21 expected
XString [          OFA69]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [         OP92AJ]: p = 6.812E-07,    0.03 expected
XString [           SXC9]: p = 1.235E-04,    4.96 expected
XString [          OPAE9]: p = 1.196E-04,    4.80 expected
XString [      OPAE/ARAR]: p = 0.000E+00,    0.00 expected
XString [         OPAE89]: p = 8.201E-05,    3.29 expected
XString [         OFCOE9]: p = 3.792E-05,    1.52 expected
XString [          OF989]: p = 1.851E-04,    7.43 expected
XString [          OFCC2]: p = 5.704E-05,    2.29 expected
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   0:   0 A pages,  10 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.02 1  0.00 2  0.97 3  0.26 4  2.34 5  0.00 6  0.07 7  0.02 8  9.78 
X9 11.25 A 13.50 B  0.66 C  7.79 D  0.07 E  4.94 F  9.12 G  0.00 H  0.00 
XI  0.06 J  0.96 K  0.05 L  0.03 M  3.98 N  1.16 O 13.23 P  2.35 Q  0.10 
XR  6.50 S  6.44 T  0.51 U  0.15 V  0.71 W  0.07 X  0.93 Y  0.06 Z  1.90 
X*****PAGES:
X 63[0.037]  64[0.079]  75[0.075]  76[0.036]  77[0.061]  78[0.043]  97[0.032] 
X 98[0.057] 107[0.047] 108[0.047] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   1:   0 A pages,  13 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.00 1  0.00 2  1.57 3  0.08 4  4.49 5  0.00 6  0.04 7  0.04 8 10.26 
X9 13.04 A  6.67 B  0.79 C 17.42 D  0.05 E  5.72 F  6.86 G  0.03 H  0.01 
XI  0.07 J  0.45 K  0.00 L  0.00 M  1.85 N  0.99 O 13.29 P  3.19 Q  0.55 
XR  2.82 S  5.23 T  0.20 U  0.15 V  0.22 W  0.07 X  0.80 Y  0.09 Z  2.94 
X*****PAGES:
X 59[0.058]  60[0.097]  80[0.054]  93[0.065] 111[0.080] 147[0.054] 150[0.045] 
X151[0.055] 153[0.057] 156[0.054] 161[0.042] 163[0.050] 165[0.048] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   2:   0 A pages,  10 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.02 1  0.00 2  1.68 3  0.19 4  2.27 5  0.00 6  0.07 7  0.04 8 12.93 
X9 16.30 A  7.63 B  1.26 C 13.95 D  0.00 E  3.84 F  5.78 G  0.00 H  0.00 
XI  0.02 J  0.87 K  0.07 L  0.00 M  1.62 N  0.32 O 10.48 P  4.08 Q  0.63 
XR  3.43 S  7.42 T  0.34 U  0.22 V  0.48 W  0.15 X  0.78 Y  0.03 Z  3.08 
X*****PAGES:
X 49[0.069]  50[0.066]  65[0.066]  66[0.083]  79[0.104]  83[0.060]  84[0.034] 
X 89[0.055]  90[0.045]  94[0.052] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
XCluster   3:   0 A pages,  11 B pages. Mean:
X0  0.00 1  0.00 2  1.12 3  0.09 4  5.85 5  0.01 6  0.05 7  0.00 8  8.72 
X9 12.53 A  7.12 B  0.72 C 13.52 D  0.04 E  9.51 F  6.69 G  0.03 H  0.02 
XI  0.00 J  0.12 K  0.00 L  0.01 M  1.31 N  1.78 O 14.31 P  2.89 Q  0.42 
XR  3.00 S  5.20 T  0.12 U  0.03 V  0.13 W  0.07 X  0.66 Y  0.01 Z  3.93 
X*****PAGES:
X148[0.028] 149[0.038] 152[0.051] 154[0.039] 155[0.045] 157[0.063] 158[0.059] 
X159[0.048] 160[0.050] 162[0.028] 164[0.043] 
X--------------------------------------------------------
X 60B:---------------------+                                               
X 79B:--------------------+|                                               
X 64B:------------------+ ||                                               
X 98B:----------------+ | ||                                               
X 78B:--------------+ | | ||                                               
X 63B:-------------+| | | ||                                               
X 97B:-------------+++| | ||                                               
X 76B:--------------+|| | ||                                               
X 77B:-------------+||| | ||                                               
X107B:-------------+++++| ||                                               
X108B:-----------------+++||                                               
X111B:------------------+|||                                               
X 65B:----------------+ ||||                                               
X 66B:---------------+| ||||                                               
X 75B:---------------+++||||                                               
X 89B:----------------+|||||                                               
X 93B:---------------+||||||                                               
X 49B:--------------+|||||||                                               
X 90B:------------+ ||||||||                                               
X 50B:-----------+| ||||||||                                               
X 83B:----------+|| ||||||||                                               
X 84B:---------+||| ||||||||                                               
X 94B:---------+++++||||||||                                               
X 80B:------------+|||||||||                                               
X156B:-----------+||||||||||                                               
X 59B:---------+ |||||||||||                                               
X151B:-------+ | |||||||||||                                               
X161B:-------++| |||||||||||                                               
X150B:-------+|| |||||||||||                                               
X163B:-------++++|||||||||||                                               
X157B:--------+ ||||||||||||                                               
X158B:--------++||||||||||||                                               
X155B:--------+|||||||||||||                                               
X149B:------+ ||||||||||||||                                               
X152B:-----+| ||||||||||||||                                               
X148B:-+   || ||||||||||||||                                               
X154B:-++  || ||||||||||||||                                               
X159B:--++ || ||||||||||||||                                               
X162B:---++|| ||||||||||||||                                               
X164B:----++++||||||||||||||                                               
X160B:------+|||||||||||||||                                               
X147B:-----+||||||||||||||||                                               
X153B:----+|||||||||||||||||                                               
X165B:----++++++++++++++++++-                                              
X% */
X
X/* Test the null hypothesis that a given patch of window is generated 
X   by some single density. Nonparametric test: compute the empirical
X   cumulative distribution functions of a pair of data sets, find T =
X   max over all u of |c1(u) - c2(u)|, reject the null hypothesis at 
X   level alpha if T > the (1 - alpha) quintile for T under the null
X   hypothesis. For large sample of size m and n, let 
X   z = sqrt((m + n) / (m * n)). 
X   p 	0.8	0.9	0.95	0.98	0.99
X   thr	1.07z	1.22z	1.36z	1.52z	1.63z
X*/
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'voyn_tool.c' 'failed'
fi
# ============= getbool.c ==============
if test -f 'getbool.c' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'getbool.c' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'getbool.c' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'getbool.c' &&
X/*
X * Copyright (c) 1990 Carnegie Mellon University
X * All Rights Reserved.
X * 
X * Permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this software and its
X * documentation is hereby granted, provided that both the copyright
X * notice and this permission notice appear in all copies of the
X * software, derivative works or modified versions, and any portions
X * thereof, and that both notices appear in supporting documentation.
X *
X * THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY
X * DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ALL
X * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS.  IN NO EVENT
X * SHALL CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT,
X * INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER
X * RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF
X * CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN
X * CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
X *
X * Users of this software agree to return to Carnegie Mellon any
X * improvements or extensions that they make and grant Carnegie the
X * rights to redistribute these changes.
X *
X * Export of this software is permitted only after complying with the
X * regulations of the U.S. Deptartment of Commerce relating to the
X * Export of Technical Data.
X */
X/*  getbool -- ask user a yes/no question
X *
X *  Usage:  i = getbool (prompt, defalt);
X *
X *  Example:  do {...} while (getbool ("More?",1));
X *
X *  Prints prompt string, asks user for response.  Defalt is
X *  0 (no) or 1 (yes), and is used if user types just carriage return,
X *  or on end-of-file or error in the standard input.
X *
X *  HISTORY
X * $Log:	getbool.c,v $
X * Revision 1.2  90/12/11  17:53:39  mja
X * 	Add copyright/disclaimer for distribution.
X * 
X * 28-Apr-85  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Modified for 4.2 BSD.  Now uses stderr for output.
X *
X * 23-Oct-82  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Added code to return default if gets returns NULL.
X *
X * 20-Nov-79  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Rewritten for VAX.  Possible changes for the future:  accept "t" (true)
X *	and "f" (false), 0 and 1, etc.
X *
X */
X
X#include <stdio.h>
X#include <c.h>
X
Xint getbool (prompt, defalt)
Xchar *prompt;
Xint defalt;
X{
X	register int valu;
X	register char ch;
X	char input [100];
X
X	fflush (stdout);
X	if (defalt != TRUE && defalt != FALSE)  defalt = TRUE;
X	valu = 2;				/* meaningless value */
X	do {
X		fprintf (stderr,"%s  [%s]  ",prompt,(defalt ? "yes" : "no"));
X		fflush (stderr);			/* in case it's buffered */
X		if (gets (input) == NULL) {
X			valu = defalt;
X		}
X		else {
X			ch = *input;			/* first char */
X			if (ch == 'y' || ch == 'Y')		valu = TRUE;
X			else if (ch == 'n' || ch == 'N')	valu = FALSE;
X			else if (ch == '\0')		valu = defalt;
X			else fprintf (stderr,"Must begin with 'y' (yes) or 'n' (no).\n");
X		}
X	} 
X	while (valu == 2);			/* until correct response */
X	return (valu);
X}
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'getbool.c' 'failed'
fi
# ============= getfloat.c ==============
if test -f 'getfloat.c' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'getfloat.c' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'getfloat.c' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'getfloat.c' &&
X/*
X * Copyright (c) 1990 Carnegie Mellon University
X * All Rights Reserved.
X * 
X * Permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this software and its
X * documentation is hereby granted, provided that both the copyright
X * notice and this permission notice appear in all copies of the
X * software, derivative works or modified versions, and any portions
X * thereof, and that both notices appear in supporting documentation.
X *
X * THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY
X * DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ALL
X * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS.  IN NO EVENT
X * SHALL CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT,
X * INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER
X * RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF
X * CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN
X * CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
X *
X * Users of this software agree to return to Carnegie Mellon any
X * improvements or extensions that they make and grant Carnegie the
X * rights to redistribute these changes.
X *
X * Export of this software is permitted only after complying with the
X * regulations of the U.S. Deptartment of Commerce relating to the
X * Export of Technical Data.
X */
X/*  getfloat --  prompt user for float
X *
X *  Usage:  f = getfloat (prompt,min,max,defalt)
X *	float f,min,max,defalt;
X *	char *prompt;
X *
X *  Getfloat prints the message:  prompt  (min to max)  [defalt]
X *  and accepts a line of input from the user.  If the input
X *  is not null or numeric, an error message is printed; otherwise,
X *  the value is converted to a float (or the value "defalt" is
X *  substituted if the input is null).  Then, the value is
X *  checked to ensure that is lies within the range "min" to "max".
X *  If it does not, an error message is printed.  As long as
X *  errors occur, the cycle is repeated; when a legal value is
X *  entered, this value is returned by getfloat.
X *  The default is returned on EOF or error in the standard input.
X *
X *  HISTORY
X * $Log:	getfloat.c,v $
X * Revision 1.2  90/12/11  17:54:15  mja
X * 	Add copyright/disclaimer for distribution.
X * 
X * 28-Apr-85  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Modified for 4.2 BSD.  Now uses stderr for output.
X *
X *  5-Nov-84  Glenn Marcy (gm0w) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Changed i to a double for extra precision in comparisons.
X *
X * 23-Oct-82  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Added code to return default on error or EOF on standard input.
X *
X * 20-Nov-79  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Created for VAX.
X *
X */
X
X#include <stdio.h>
X#include <ctype.h>
X#include <math.h>
X
Xfloat getfloat (prompt,min,max,defalt)
Xfloat min,max,defalt;
Xchar *prompt;
X{
X	char input [200];
X	register char *p;
X	register int err;
X	double i;
X
X	fflush (stdout);
X	do {
X
X		fprintf (stderr,"%s  (%g to %g)  [%g]  ",prompt,min,max,defalt);
X		fflush (stderr);
X
X		err = 0;
X		if (gets(input) == NULL) {
X			i = defalt;
X			err = (i < min || max < i);
X		}
X		else {
X			for (p=input; *p &&
X		 	(isdigit(*p) || *p=='-' || *p=='.' || *p=='+'
X			  || *p=='e' || *p=='E');
X			 p++);
X			if (*p) {		/* non-numeric */
X				err = 1;
X			} 
X			else {
X				if (*input)	i = atof (input);
X				else		i = defalt;
X				err = (i < min || max < i);
X			}
X		}
X
X		if (err) fprintf (stderr,"Must be a number between %g and %g\n",
X		min,max);
X	} 
X	while (err);
X
X	return (i);
X}
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'getfloat.c' 'failed'
fi
# ============= getint.c ==============
if test -f 'getint.c' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'getint.c' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'getint.c' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'getint.c' &&
X/*
X * Copyright (c) 1990 Carnegie Mellon University
X * All Rights Reserved.
X * 
X * Permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this software and its
X * documentation is hereby granted, provided that both the copyright
X * notice and this permission notice appear in all copies of the
X * software, derivative works or modified versions, and any portions
X * thereof, and that both notices appear in supporting documentation.
X *
X * THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY
X * DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ALL
X * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS.  IN NO EVENT
X * SHALL CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT,
X * INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER
X * RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF
X * CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN
X * CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
X *
X * Users of this software agree to return to Carnegie Mellon any
X * improvements or extensions that they make and grant Carnegie the
X * rights to redistribute these changes.
X *
X * Export of this software is permitted only after complying with the
X * regulations of the U.S. Deptartment of Commerce relating to the
X * Export of Technical Data.
X */
X/*  getint --  prompt user for int
X *
X *  Usage:  i = getint (prompt,min,max,defalt)
X *	int i,min,max,defalt;
X *	char *prompt;
X *
X *  Getint prints the message:  prompt  (min to max)  [defalt]
X *  and accepts a line of input from the user.  If the input
X *  is not null or numeric, an error message is printed; otherwise,
X *  the value is converted to an int (or the value "defalt" is
X *  substituted if the input is null).  Then, the value is
X *  checked to ensure that is lies within the range "min" to "max".
X *  If it does not, an error message is printed.  As long as
X *  errors occur, the cycle is repeated; when a legal value is
X *  entered, this value is returned by getint.
X *  On error or EOF in the standard input, the default is returned.
X *
X *  HISTORY
X * $Log:	getint.c,v $
X * Revision 1.2  90/12/11  17:54:38  mja
X * 	Add copyright/disclaimer for distribution.
X * 
X * 28-Apr-85  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Modified for 4.2 BSD.  Now uses stderr for output.
X *
X * 23-Oct-82  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Added code to return default on EOF or error in standard input.
X *
X * 20-Nov-79  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Rewritten for VAX.
X *
X */
X
X#include <stdio.h>
X#include <ctype.h>
X
Xint getint (prompt,min,max,defalt)
Xint min,max,defalt;
Xchar *prompt;
X{
X	char input [200];
X	register char *p;
X	register int i,err;
X
X	fflush (stdout);
X	do {
X
X		fprintf (stderr,"%s  (%d to %d)  [%d]  ",prompt,min,max,defalt);
X		fflush (stderr);
X
X		if (gets (input) == NULL) {
X			i = defalt;
X			err = (i < min || max < i);
X		}
X		else {
X			err = 0;
X			for (p=input; *p && (isdigit(*p) || *p == '-' || *p == '+'); p++) ;
X	
X			if (*p) {		/* non-numeric */
X				err = 1;
X			} 
X			else {
X				if (*input)	i = atol (input);
X				else		i = defalt;
X				err = (i < min || max < i);
X			}
X		}
X
X		if (err) fprintf (stderr,"Must be a number between %d and %d\n",
X		min,max);
X	} 
X	while (err);
X
X	return (i);
X}
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'getint.c' 'failed'
fi
# ============= getstr.c ==============
if test -f 'getstr.c' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'getstr.c' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'getstr.c' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'getstr.c' &&
X/*
X * Copyright (c) 1990 Carnegie Mellon University
X * All Rights Reserved.
X * 
X * Permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this software and its
X * documentation is hereby granted, provided that both the copyright
X * notice and this permission notice appear in all copies of the
X * software, derivative works or modified versions, and any portions
X * thereof, and that both notices appear in supporting documentation.
X *
X * THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY
X * DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ALL
X * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS.  IN NO EVENT
X * SHALL CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT,
X * INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER
X * RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF
X * CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN
X * CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
X *
X * Users of this software agree to return to Carnegie Mellon any
X * improvements or extensions that they make and grant Carnegie the
X * rights to redistribute these changes.
X *
X * Export of this software is permitted only after complying with the
X * regulations of the U.S. Deptartment of Commerce relating to the
X * Export of Technical Data.
X */
X/*  getstr --  prompt user for a string
X *
X *  Usage:  p = getstr (prompt,defalt,answer);
X *	char *p,*prompt,*defalt,*answer;
X *
X *  Getstr prints this message:  prompt  [defalt]
X *  and accepts a line of input from the user.  This line is
X *  entered into "answer", which must be a big char array;
X *  if the user types just carriage return, then the string
X *  "defalt" is copied into answer.
X *  Value returned by getstr is just the same as answer,
X *  i.e. pointer to result string.
X *  The default value is used on error or EOF in the standard input.
X *
X *  HISTORY
X * $Log:	getstr.c,v $
X * Revision 1.2  90/12/11  17:56:00  mja
X * 	Add copyright/disclaimer for distribution.
X * 
X * 28-Apr-85  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Modified for 4.2 BSD.  Now uses stderr for output.
X *
X * 23-Oct-82  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Added code to copy default to answer (in addition to Fil's code to
X *	return NULL) on error or EOF in the standard input.
X *
X * 21-Oct-80  Fil Alleva (faa) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Getstr() now percuolates any errors from gets() up to the calling
X *	routine.
X *
X * 19-May-80  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Increased buffer size to 4000 characters.  Why not?
X *
X * 20-Nov-79  Steven Shafer (sas) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Rewritten for VAX.  Mike thinks a 0 pointer for the default should
X *	print no default (i.e. not even braces); I'm not sure I like the idea
X *	of a routine that doesn't explicitly tell you what happens if you
X *	just hit Carriage Return.
X *
X */
X
X#include <stdio.h>
X
Xchar *getstr (prompt,defalt,answer)
Xchar *prompt,*defalt,*answer;
X{
X	char defbuf[4000];
X	register char *retval;
X
X	fflush (stdout);
X	fprintf (stderr,"%s  [%s]  ",prompt,defalt);
X	fflush (stderr);
X	strcpy (defbuf,defalt);
X	retval = (char *) gets (answer);
X	if (retval == NULL || *answer == '\0')  strcpy (answer,defbuf);
X	if (retval == NULL)
X	    return (retval);
X	else
X	    return (answer);
X}
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'getstr.c' 'failed'
fi
# ============= c.h ==============
if test -f 'c.h' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'c.h' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'c.h' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'c.h' &&
X/*
X * Standard C macros
X *
X **********************************************************************
X * HISTORY
X * 02-Feb-86  Glenn Marcy (gm0w) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Added check to allow multiple or recursive inclusion of this
X *	file.  Added bool enum from machine/types.h for regular users
X *	that want a real boolean type.
X *
X * 29-Dec-85  Glenn Marcy (gm0w) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Also change spacing of MAX and MIN to coincide with that of
X *	sys/param.h.
X *
X * 19-Nov-85  Glenn Marcy (gm0w) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Changed the number of tabs between TRUE, FALSE and their
X *	respective values to match those in sys/types.h.
X *
X * 17-Dec-84  Glenn Marcy (gm0w) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Only define TRUE and FALSE if not defined.  Added caseE macro
X *	for using enumerated types in switch statements.
X *
X * 23-Apr-81  Mike Accetta (mja) at Carnegie-Mellon University
X *	Added "sizeofS" and "sizeofA" macros which expand to the size
X *	of a string constant and array respectively.
X *
X **********************************************************************
X */
X
X#ifndef	_C_INCLUDE_
X#define	_C_INCLUDE_
X
X#define ABS(x) ((x)>=0?(x):-(x))
X#define	MIN(a,b) (((a)<(b))?(a):(b))
X#define	MAX(a,b) (((a)>(b))?(a):(b))
X
X#ifndef	FALSE
X#define FALSE	0
X#endif	FALSE
X#ifndef	TRUE
X#define TRUE	1
X#endif	TRUE
X
X#define	CERROR		(-1)
X
X#ifndef	bool
Xtypedef enum	{ false = 0, true = 1 } bool;
X#endif	bool
X
X#define	sizeofS(string)	(sizeof(string) - 1)
X#define sizeofA(array)	(sizeof(array)/sizeof(array[0]))
X
X#define caseE(enum_type)	case (int)(enum_type)
X
X#endif	_C_INCLUDE_
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'c.h' 'failed'
fi
# ============= Bcorpus ==============
if test -f 'Bcorpus' && test "$first_param" != -c; then
  $echo 'x -' SKIPPING 'Bcorpus' '(file already exists)'
else
  $echo 'x -' extracting 'Bcorpus' '(text)'
  sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > 'Bcorpus' &&
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X07505B 8S89/S89/9FAM#
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X16621B 4OFCC9/OEFAM/OFOE/ZC89/Q9FOROE/OROR-
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X16627B 2AN/ZC89/4OFCC9/8AM/OFC89/OE89-
X16628B 4OFC9/OE/FCC8/4OFC89/4OFC9/4OFCOE9-
X16629B SAE/8AM/OPAE/S89/OPAE/SXOR/AE9-
X16630B 4OFC89/ZC9/FAE/OFC89/9VSC89/PC89/EOEOR-
X16631B ZC89/4OFC9/4OFC89/SC9/8AR/OFC9/OFCZ9/OES9-
X16632B 4OFAN/OE/SC89/AESC9/2/AE/OR/S89/8SC9/OFC9/ES9-
X16633B ZOR/OE/OFAN/ZC89/OE/ZC89/POEOFCC89/SC89/OFC89/EOE-
X16634B 4OFC9/2OE/FC89/OFC9/EFAN/ZC9/ZC2/OE/ZC89/4OFCC9/ROR-
X16635B SX9/4OFAM/ZC9/8AN/4OFCC9/8AM/OFAM/4OFAE/89G-
X16636B 4OFSC9/4OFCC89/OFC89/8OEOR/OE/SC89/OPCOE/OEOE-
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X16638B 9PCC8AR/OEFCC9/OESC9/OEFC9/EFCOE89/8AM/OEFC89/9FAM-
X16639B 2OR/OFA2/8OEPC89/OPOE/SC89-
SHAR_EOF
  : || $echo 'restore of' 'Bcorpus' 'failed'
fi
rm -fr _sh19086
exit 0

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Jan 13 05:18 EST 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:12:13 +0000
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Subject: Some new analysis of the VMS
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Status: OR

Hi all,
I updated the EVMT page:
http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

and now there is a new section with 2 articles about some recent 
numerical analysis of the VMS; one by Rene and one by me.

I would appreciate that any comments --except the rude ones :-) -- 
are raised to the list for wide discussion.

Regards,

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Jan 13 12:32 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:49:42 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
To: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Voynich, Yale, Beinecke and copyrights
In-Reply-To: <9701101022.ZM26230@fry.research.att.com>
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	Here's a truly odious comparison.  During the 30's the Nazis 
would not allow the violently anit-Semitic passages in Hitler's *Mein 
Kampf* to appear in foreign-language translations of that book.  They 
were afraid that these would inflame public opinion abroad against them.  
The international  copyright laws allowed them to do this.  Jewish groups 
in the United States tried to publish English-language translations of 
these passages and were not successful.  

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Jan 13 15:30 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:24:37 -0800
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To: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
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Subject: Re: Voynich, Yale, Beinecke and copyrights
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Dennis Stallings wrote:
> 
>         Here's a truly odious comparison.  During the 30's the Nazis
> would not allow the violently anit-Semitic passages in Hitler's *Mein
> Kampf* to appear in foreign-language translations of that book.  They
> were afraid that these would inflame public opinion abroad against them.
> The international  copyright laws allowed them to do this.  Jewish groups
> in the United States tried to publish English-language translations of
> these passages and were not successful.

Point well taken. However, remember Godwin's Law:

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread
is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever
argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus guarantees the existence 
of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. 
				- The Jargon File

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Jan 14 03:08 EST 1997
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  Re: Godwin's law.

  Fascinating. Fortunately, from what I remember of the
  Usenet discussions I used to follow in the past, they cannot
  really be compared to the exchanges in this list, so the law
  need not apply to us.
  Or I just used to read the wrong groups, but the existence
  of this law seems to confirm the somewhat 'different' level
  of discussion that seems to pervade Usenet (which is not
  saying that there was nothing interesting going on there).
  (I learned about the Voynich from sci.skeptic.
  Anyone for Velikovsky? :-)

  The copyright issue will remain to be a contested one.
  Anybody looking for a profession should seriously consider
  taking up 'Internet Copyright Law'. It is bound to have
  a great future.

  Cheers, Rene




From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Jan 14 04:08 EST 1997
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  Karl Kluge writes:

  > To the extent that there may be some ill feeling towards Yale...
  > ... there are portions of the existing film which are inadequate
  > for proper scholarly study (or, in extreme cases, even casual
  > perusal);

  This is true enough. As those who have seen the original
  have reported, in some cases the original is hard
  to read, in others the images are just out of focus.

  > ...in addition, color, IR, or other additional non-destructive
  > imaging of selected portions of the mss. might reveal additional
  > valuable information; despite this, when approached with proposals
  > by one or more mailing list member to do such imaging or refilming >
  *not at Yale's expense*, Yale has reacted in a negative fashion.
  > ... they have acted in an obstructivist fashion that goes beyond
  > the merely proprietary.

  This is also true enough. I have occasionally wondered
  if they are doing this to protect Brumbaugh's reputation,
  fearing that his theories might be attacked like Newbold's
  (but the comparison is a bit of a stretch, I admit).
  This would of course not be a good excuse at all.

  I just hope something might be arranged one day and would
  like to keep the door open. The Petersen copy is a fantastic
  piece of work, but it cannot replace a (good) machine copy.
  What we have now (Yale plus Petersen copies combined) is in
  many places better than what D'Imperio/Currier had to work with.

  Cheers,  Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Jan 14 04:39 EST 1997
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Subject: Re: Voynich, Yale, Beinecke and copyrights
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:34:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <C125641F:002C1428.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> from "rzandber@esoc.esa.de" at Jan 14, 97 09:02:37 am
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>   Re: Godwin's law.
> 
>   Fascinating. Fortunately, from what I remember of the
>   Usenet discussions I used to follow in the past, they cannot
>   really be compared to the exchanges in this list, so the law
>   need not apply to us.

Hehe, of course. Actually this list reminds me a lot of the way Usenet used
to be in the mid-80s when most of the traffic was from universities and
defense contractors (I was at NASA). <leans on cane> ahh remember the good
old days. :)

>   Anyone for Velikovsky? :-)

AAAIIIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!!
-Adams

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 15 03:53 EST 1997
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  Dear all,

  There are many pages in the Voynich which seem of
  special interest, all depending on one's viewpoint.
  Since yesterday, f49v has me totally puzzled (and a
  bit worried).
  The 'sequence' in the margin is already quite interesting.
  It mostly repeats itself and there is a strong suggestion
  that these could be the numbers 1 to 8 (cf. the Petersen
  Ms). This has been obvious for a long time.
  More surprising to me was the final paragraph of 9
  lines. Here (and this is more obvious from Petersen
  or the Yale copy than from the transcription files)
  almost every single word seems to start with a
  Currier 'S'. Exceptions seem to be cases where a
  word starting with 'S' is prefixed by a short string.
  The uncertainty about word spaces makes it a
  bit difficult to be very positive on this, but in any
  case it is very marked. Whereas most of the time
  one has the feeling to be looking at 'language', here
  this is not the case. And how could 'S' possibly
  represent a single letter (or phoneme)? Reasons
  why I already 'did not like' this letter:
  1) It has a variant with a curl (Currier Z) which can
  occur in exactly the same places as itself. I cannot
  think of any language having this feature, but my
  knowledge is extremely limited and I would be happy
  if one of the linguists of the group could expand on this.
  2) When not word-initial, it seems to be mutually
  interchangeable with Currier 'CC', same problem as
  above.
  3) I don't even need to mention the odd relation it
  has with the four gallows characters.

  Put it all together and what do you get? Currier S
  just does not seem to be a letter or phoneme,
  but something else. Now what?
  And what special role is played by f49v?

  Mentioning Petersen above reminded me of something
  I brought up before. I have seen more evidence that the
  originator of file voynich.orig has used the Petersen
  Ms as well as photocopies of the original. Given the
  fact that Petersen had identified all the features that
  distinguish languages A and B, Currier owes part of his discovery
  to Petersen. The identification of the handwriting
  styles was not picked up by Petersen as far as I can tell...

  Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Jan 14 19:21 EST 1997
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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:39:20 -0800
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Subject: Godwin's law (Re: Voynich, Yale, Beinecke and copyrights)
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Don Laycock, the author of the Compleat Enochian Dictionary,
used to say that the Kabbalah was a method for linking
everything to anything, e.g. "Hitler and sausage". He *did*
pick "Hitler" and "sausage". An obsession with sausages, Laycock
had. Sooner rather than later, "sausage" would turn up in
any conversation you had with him. Earlier than Hitler et al.

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 17 18:08 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:12:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
cc: Richard Shand <rshand@wimsey.com>
Subject: More on Catharism
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    I've been investigating two questions:

    1)  Olivier Clary said that the Cathar Endura, the terminal
    fast after receiving the consolation, the baptism with the
    Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, was a late sectarian
    development within Catharism, "a heresy within a heresy", and
    was not part of Catharism when it was a dominant religion.

    2)  Andras Kornai said that timing considerations make it
    unlikely that historic Catharism could have been involved
    with the VMs.

    I inquired about the first question at:

Centre d'=C9tudes Cathares (Center of Cathar Studies)

http://newescape.fr/Culture/History/Cathares/Ce.Cathares.html

    They're physically located in Carcassonne, where Jacques=20
Fournier's Inquisition, described in *Montaillou*, took place.  All=20
correspondance with them has been in French, so the translations are=20
mine.=20
------------------------------------------------------------
Centre d'=C9tudes Cathares
Nicolas Gouzy, Directeur

Dear Sir,

    I participate in an E-mail list in which we are discussing the=20
Cathar Endura.  According to Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie in *Montaillou*,=20
it was a terminal fast by a dying person after receiving the=20
consolation [*consolamentum*].=20

    However, some have said that this practice belonged only to very=20
late Catharism, specifically to the Catharism preached by the Authie'=20
brothers at Montaillou and the surrounding area.  They said the Endura=20
was not part of classic Catharism.  One could receive the consolation=20
and then continue to live almost normally.=20

    Could you enlighten us?

Sincerely
Dennis Stallings
------------------------------------------------
Mon Jan  6 11:41:19 1997
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:47:03 +0100
From: William Lafarge <Lafarge@idefix.newescape.fr>
To: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
Subject: Re: Endura cathare

Hello.  On the subject of the endura:

    It is not possible to make the claim that someone who received the=20
consolation was bound to suicide by starvation.  It is true that this=20
thesis still prevails among numerous "esotericist" authors and poorly=20
informed historians.=20

    There is no trace of ritual suicide or ritual murder in the=20
Catholic authors of violently anti-heretical notices or treatises,=20
like those of Vaux de Cernay, Alain de Lille, Moneta de Cremone...  =20
They would not have missed using this argument if it had been true. =20
Neither is ritual suicide attested by the Southern [French]=20
inquisition.=20

    One must await the first decade of the XIV century to see the=20
endura appear, very precisely defined as a ritual fast associated with=20
a *consolamentum* in extremis or given in precarious situations,=20
around twenty cases for the period 1300-1320.  It was only, and you=20
are right to mention it, the last Cathar perfecti, the most poorly=20
initiated, who actually tried to propose an expiatory fast to someone=20
newly consoled. But not the Authie' brothers.=20

    In summation:  it is not known with certainty whether the endura=20
was an ordinary religious practice or not, but it is known that it was=20
not an institution, and that never, emphatically never, did the Good=20
Christians [perfecti] advise a ritual suicide!=20

    I can send you some photocopies for further information... give me=20
your address.  Can you advise the other participants of your mini-
forum on the endura to come visit our site, if they want to?=20

Regards,

Nicolas Gouzy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The picture of Catharism I have had up to now comes from Emmanuel=20
Le Roy Ladurie's *Montaillou*.  It's a very vivid picture.  Indeed,=20
it's a very vivid picture of a whole small medieval society, albeit=20
one under extreme pressure from the Inquisition.  However, the letter=20
above makes it clear that the Catharism of Montaillou is a very late=20
sectarian development of classic Catharism, "a heresy within a heresy"=20
in Olivier's fine phrase.  I need to do some rethinking.=20

    I did receive the snail-mail info.  There's a wealth of things,=20
both in French and in English.  There are biblio entries on Cathar=20
scriptures, archaeology, and possibly paintings.  I could send copies=20
to anyone interested.  Our library also a French-language bibliography=20
on Catharism from the Institute of Cathar Studies dated about 1958.=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)  For the second question, we might profitably ask three further=20
questions:

a)  What would be a terminal date for Catharism as a whole?

    The Institute of Cathar Studies' Web page notes:

    "The last known Occitan goodman, B=E9libaste, was burned at=20
Villerouge in 1321.  In Northern Italy, the Inquisition archives=20
conserve dualist depositions from the beginning of the XVth century.=20
In Bosnia (currently ex-Yugoslavia), Catharism, a tolerated and even=20
dominant religion, was absorbed into Islam after the Turkish conquest=20
(end XVth century)."=20

    Many list members have given 1450-1500 as a possible period for=20
the VMs, due to resemblances to writing styles of that period -=20
especially in northern Italy.  If there were Cathar remnants around=20
1400, a pocket's surviving to 1450 doesn't seem unreasonable.=20

    The reference to Bogomilism in Bosnia is interesting.  Scholars=20
seem to agree that Bogomilism and Catharism were the same religion,=20
and that it spread from east to west, perhaps starting as the Paulican=20
heresy around Constantinople.  I've read that the Bogomils ("Friends=20
of God" in Slavic; I believe the Cathars also called themselves that)=20
converted to Islam after the Turkish conquest, rather than convert to=20
the rival Catholic or Orthodox Christian churches.=20

    The things I've seen don't indicate whether the Bogomils in Bosnia=20
used the Cyrillic alphabet or the Latin one.  If they used the Latin=20
one, a relation to the VMs seems more likely, as the Voynich alphabet=20
seems in part to be derived from medieval Latin abbreviations.  I=20
haven't heard anyone mention Slavic influence in the VMs.=20

    I've seen several references to the odd Bogomil gravestones that=20
survive to this day in Bosnia.  One of the articles below is obviously=20
about this.=20

b)  Is there any surviving Cathar graphic art (paintings, drawings,=20
calligraphy) with which to compare the VMs?=20

    We're the ones with the most experience with Voynich images, so we=20
would have to answer that one.=20

 The following items look relevant.

Archeology and architecture:=20

    Arch=E9ologie et vie quotidienne aux XIIIe-XIVe si=E8cles en Midi-
Pyr=E9n=E9es. - Toulouse, [Archeology and Daily Life in the XIII-XIVth=20
Centuries in the Midi-Pyrenees]  Circonscription des Antiquit=E9s=20
Historiques Midi-Pyr=E9n=E9es, 1990.=20

     Signalisation de s=E9pultures et st=E8les disco=EFdales.[Notices of=20
tombs and discoidal stelae]  - Carcassonne, Centre d'Arch=E9ologie=20
M=E9di=E9vale du Languedoc, 1989.=20

c)  Could there be a relation with the "courtly love" movement?

    There has been much speculation of the relation of this movement to=20
the Cathars, since they were both in southern France at the same time.=20
I don't know much of the details here.  I believe that the "courtly=20
love" movement existed to some extent in northern Italy, as well as=20
southern France.  I've read, and tend to believe, that it originated=20
from contact with Muslim Sufi poetry in northern Spain, then under the=20
Moors.  Thus it may have had some mystical as well as social basis.=20

    It seems like this would be worth some further investigation.=20
-----------------------------------------------------
    There's some bibliography stuff that looks interesting at:

http://www.meryfela.demon.co.uk/perfect.htm

Thouzellier, C.; Rituel Cathare: texte critique, traduction et notes=20
[Cathar Ritual: critical text, translation, and notes] (Paris, 1977)=20

Nelli, Rene; Ecritures Cathares: textes preCathares et Cathares=20
[Cathar Scriptures: pre-Cathar and Cathar Texts] (Paris, 1968)=20

Gougaud, Henri; Belibaste - a novel based on the last Cathar Perfecti=20
(Editions du  Seuil, Paris, 1982) =20

* The Perfect Heretics: Cathars and Catharism, Jeff Merrifield,=20
(Enabler Publications, Dorset,1995)  ISBN 0 9523316 2 4. Available=20
from Enabler at Russell House, Lym Close, Lyme Regis, Dorset; or from=20
Playback, 9 Maldon Road, Great Totham, Essex, CM9 8PR, UK=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Finally, I would like to call everyone's attention to a new friend=20
of the Voynich Manuscript:=20

Richard Shand <rshand@wimsey.com>

    He has used much list member material and has pointers to our Web=20
pages at:=20

http://marlowe.wimsey.com/~rshand/streams/scripts/voynich.html
-----------------------------------------------------------

All for now,
Dennis


From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 22 04:02 EST 1997
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Hello Mark,

I'm copying this to the list because it might be of general interest:
the sequence in the left margin of f49v is transcribed best by Petersen
but he has skipped the first one, for which one may take the value
transcribed by the FSG. The fact that there are 26 symbols only
recently struck me as possibly significant, although I have no idea
at which time which alphabet had 24, 26 or any other number of letters.
Anyway, in  Currier, to be read line by line:

V, O, R, 9, C, Frogguy-), F, 2,
B, O, 'R', 9, C,  Froguy-), 2,
B, O, 'R', 9, C, Frogguy-), 8, 9, C, F, 9

Here, Frogguy-) is like a mirror image of C, and  'R' really
looks like a modern '2'.
The nrs 1 to 5 are aligned with the O to Frogguy-),
so the 2 matches with this 2-like 'R'.
The text to the right of the sequence has three paragraphs,
of 13, 4 and 9 lines each, which does not match at all with
the repeatability of the sequence above.

For what it's worth... Rene




From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 22 21:15 EST 1997
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From: sulla@globaldialog.com (M. Sulla)
Subject: F49v Musings
Status: OR

Rene et alii:

f49 is a very interesting passage, as you have pointed out.  I have been
racking my brain trying to deduce as much as possible.

I have been working with three transcriptions, and there are problems with
the left margin, which is where everything of interest is.  So it goes.

This section of the mss. is unusual because we have each line begun with a
single voynich character.  The first 11 lines are short,  so it appears
that we have single words separated.    Here we might be able to discern
how a word is enciphered since we have firm bounderies.

There are also the numbers 1 to 5 in the margin. Logic indicates that the
single voynich characters  represent letters .   Why would the encipherer
number a number?
Likewise, this series of letters probably does run a-z in voynich.

I took a sheet of graph paper and transcribed this passage, lining up all
the vertical columns.  There appears to be three general columns that run
up and down the short lines (ll 1-11).  I reason that values that repeat
line after line are a cipher feature, and not a part of the underlying
text.   This is evidence that voynich is only about  50% lexically
significant.  I had remaining:

1.  6       (line number ---number of characters remaining)
2.  6
3.  12
4.  11
5.   8
6.   6.
7.   3
8.   7
9.   11
10.  9
11.  7

This does appear to be a series.   Considering  this passage is roughly
twelve lines, and there seems to be multiples of three on each line, I
reason that this passage is a list of dates, perhaps in the format of "xxi
ian" The longer lines at lines 3 and 4 might correspond to  feast days such
as Easter, and the long line at 12 might correspond to Christmas.  A short
line might be simply "kal, non, or id".  I might expect "pascha" and
"natalis" to appear in these lines.

I tried my key on line 3 and I got " I I I P.... " (the rest gibberish)

Other possible series could be hours of the day, the houses of the zodiac,
but the line lengths don't seem right to me.

I think I have pushed the data to the limit.

Still grinding away: comments and suggestions are most welcome.


mark s.

p.s.  Does anyone have any observations on the f116 plain text :
"michitonoldabas...."?


M. Sulla   sulla@globaldialog.com
http://www.globaldialog.com/~sulla/nakedgod.html
rura cano rurisque deos.          --Tibullus



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 23 08:48 EST 1997
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To add to Mark's:

> There are also the numbers 1 to 5 in the margin. Logic
> indicates that the single voynich characters  represent
> letters .   Why would the encipherer number a number?

There is the very distinct possibility that the numbers
1 to 5 were written not by the original author but by
a later owner of the Ms (and my favourite candidate would
be Marci's benefactor whose vigorous toil in attempting to
decipher the thing are documented). I don't think we can be
so sure the Voynich characters are letters, not numbers.

Also: the general failure to identify numbers in the Manuscript
is one of those interesting little things about it, for
which the typical multitude of possible explanations may
be offered.

> This section of the mss. is unusual because we have each
> line begun with a single voynich character.

Yes, and what has been tacitly assumed is that the single
characters are not just the first characters of the lines, offset
a little from the rest. The single characters do not follow
the typical distribution of line-initial characters. The first
letters of the words to the right of it do, so I think
the tacit assumption is justified.

Interestingly, in the earlier herbal pages I think I have
seen a few cases where the first letters of each line seem
somewhat offset from the rest of the first word. It would
seem that the writer first wrote all initial letters to
make sure it all fitted on the page (or to keep a nice
straight margin) and then filled the page with the full
text. This would seem to be rather strong evidence for
the 'fair copy' theory.

Cheers,  Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 23 10:41 EST 1997
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From: firthr@db.erau.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: F49v Musings
Status: OR

Rene writes

>Interestingly, in the earlier herbal pages I think I have
>seen a few cases where the first letters of each line seem
>somewhat offset from the rest of the first word. It would
>seem that the writer first wrote all initial letters to
>make sure it all fitted on the page (or to keep a nice
>straight margin) and then filled the page with the full
>text. This would seem to be rather strong evidence for
>the 'fair copy' theory.

Another possibility springs to mind.  Recall a certain poem
that was constructed by first writing, in the leftmost
column, the sequence ALI CEP LEA SAN CEL IDD ELL.

Maybe this part of the Ms is an acrostic?

        "...
         Ever drifting down the stream
         Ling'ring in the golden gleam
         Life, what is it but a dream?"

Yours
Robert




From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 24 03:24 EST 1997
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  Robert Firth suggests (maybe not too seriously):

  > Another possibility springs to mind....
  >
  > Maybe this part of the Ms is an acrostic?

  ... FRB ACO NSC RIP SIT ?

  For once I think we can be moderately certain
  about one thing: had there been acrostics in
  the Ms, either one of the Friedmans would have
  found them...

  Cheers :-)   Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 24 05:17 EST 1997
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From: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
Message-Id: <9701241013.AA15977@rzurs3.unizh.ch>
Subject: Re: F49v Musings
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In-Reply-To: <C1256428.0047D7EF.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> from "rzandber@esoc.esa.de" at Jan 23, 97 02:43:47 pm
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> Interestingly, in the earlier herbal pages I think I have
> seen a few cases where the first letters of each line seem
> somewhat offset from the rest of the first word. It would
> seem that the writer first wrote all initial letters to
> make sure it all fitted on the page (or to keep a nice
> straight margin) and then filled the page with the full
> text. This would seem to be rather strong evidence for
> the 'fair copy' theory.

Not necessarily.  It could also mean, that the first letter determines
how the coding for a particular line is going to be done.  It could
indicate which table to use, how to shift a table, or whatever.  Perhaps
the coding of one line is simple, there being several codes depending on
the first letter would make an analysis of the entire text very
difficult, nevertheless.

First words from a long time lurking biology student in Switzerland.

Alex.
-- 
Rhamm Groohm! Auuurgh! Ogouuun. Ooorgh! Ooorgh! alex@zool.unizh.ch.

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 24 08:11 EST 1997
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  alex@zool.unizh.ch replied to my:

  >> ... I think I have
  >> seen a few cases where the first letters of each line seem
  >> somewhat offset from the rest of the first word. It would
  >> seem that the writer first wrote all initial letters to
  >> make sure it all fitted on the page (or to keep a nice
  >> straight margin)......

  with:

  > Not necessarily.  It could also mean, that the first letter determines
  > how the coding for a particular line is going to be done.  It could
  > indicate which table to use, how to shift a table, or whatever.

  Whereas I agree that such a coding scheme could very
  well underlie the Voynich text, the feature I saw does
  not really give any hints in that direction, IMHO. In
  fact, f49v would be a much better example for such
  a usage. I'll send the page number(s)
  next week and those with a copy from Yale or
  the BL can judge for themselves.

  Cheers, Rene



From reeds Fri Jan 24 08:54:17 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9701240854.ZM21983@research.att.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:54:17 -0500
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To: voyinch@rand.org
Subject: Re: F49v musings -- Voynich
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

Wild speculation, prompted by Firth's acrostic post:

Here is a key to a kind of cipher, and a message.

Key:

a	any sentence about near eastern cities
b	discourse about mathematics
c	discussion of astronomy
d	text about that grand old science of hereptology
e	modern art, excluding Gustav Klimt
f	the internal combustion engine
g 	members of the extended family-by-adoption of the old lady of Paris
	who knew what little elephants were thinking
h	any discussion of repetition 
i	the subterranean world
j	postal reform through the ages
k	giraffes and other long-legged animals
l	relics of saints and other aspects of hagiography
m	the rise and fall of mail-order catalogue business
n	Spanish monarchy, problems of dynastic succession
o	the revolutions of 1848
p	positive and negative ions, logarithms of ionic concentrations
q	the typewriter: machine and enabler of social change
r	the optical telegraphe of Chappe
s	Goethe as scientist, Kepler as novelist.
t	possible destruction of the world by an astral body
u	cocoa in literature
v	magic squares
w	preservation of historical documents
x	unruliness of spectators at football matches
y	folk etymology and urban folk tales
z	billiards

Cipher message:
----
There is a famous diagram depicted at the feet of the angel in Durer's Melancholia.
A spectre was haunting Europe at that time.
In the sewers, beneath the streets of Manhattan, dwells a race of miniature alligators.
>From Hapsburg to Bourbon!
Hans Sterk follwed in Arne Sakmussen's footsteps.
A recent solar flare, occurring at a sun-spot-minimum, destroyed a communications satelite.
Discussions of information theory always seem to bring up entropy: immer noch entropy!

What Sears & Roebuck started, L. L. Bean and J. Crew perfected.
Newton's discovery of the wave nature of light was denied by the "Farbentheorie"
----

Maybe f49v is a key to such a cipher.  The criterion for matching key line to
message line might be quite different than the one I use above.



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From reeds Fri Jan 24 09:05:57 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9701240905.ZM23370@research.att.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:05:57 -0500
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: F49v musings -- Voynich
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Status: OR



Wild speculation, prompted by Firth's acrostic post:

Here is a key to a kind of cipher, and a message.

Key:

a	any sentence about near eastern cities
b	discourse about mathematics
c	discussion of astronomy and geophysics
d	text about that grand old science of hereptology
e	modern art, excluding Gustav Klimt
f	the internal combustion engine
g 	members of the extended family-by-adoption of the old lady of Paris
	who knew what little elephants were thinking
h	any discussion of repetition 
i	the subterranean world
j	postal reform through the ages
k	giraffes and other long-legged animals
l	relics of saints and other aspects of hagiography
m	the rise and fall of mail-order catalogue business
n	Spanish monarchy, problems of dynastic succession
o	the revolutions of 1848
p	positive and negative ions, logarithms of ionic concentrations
q	the typewriter: machine and enabler of social change
r	the optical telegraphe of Chappe
s	Goethe as scientist, Kepler as novelist.
t	possible destruction of the world by an astral body
u	cocoa in literature
v	magic squares
w	preservation of historical documents
x	unruliness of spectators at football matches
y	folk etymology and urban folk tales
z	billiards

Cipher message:
----
  There is a famous diagram depicted at the feet of the angel in Durer's Melancholia.
  A spectre was haunting Europe at that time.
  In the sewers, beneath the streets of Manhattan, dwells a race of miniature alligators.>From Hapsburg to Bourbon!
  From Hapsburg to Bourbon!
  Hans Sterk followed in Arne Sakmussen's footsteps.
  A recent solar flare, occurring at a sun-spot-minimum, destroyed a communications satelite.
  Discussions of information theory always seem to bring up entropy: immer noch entropy!

  What Sears & Roebuck started, L. L. Bean and J. Crew perfected.
  Newton's discovery of the wave nature of light was denied by the "Farbentheorie"
----

Maybe f49v is a key to such a cipher.  The criterion for matching key line to
message line might (would have to be) quite different than the one I use above.




-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 24 11:05 EST 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: F49v musings -- Voynich 
In-reply-to: "Jim Reeds"'s message of Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:05:57 -0500.
             <9701240905.ZM23370@research.att.com> 
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:59:37 +0000
From: Michael Roe <Michael.Roe@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <E0vno2g-0001iI-00@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk>
Status: OR

> Here is a key to a kind of cipher, and a message.

Well, it certainly is possible to decipher Jim's cipher.(There are
occasional ambiguities: "In the sewers, beneath the streets of Manhattan ..."
could be either I or Y). I must admit I guessed some probable-plaintext and 
worked from there!

However, this cipher has the property that the ciphertext seems comprehensible
(althogh the apparent meaning is unrelated to the plaintext). The Voynich MS,
on the other hand, has no immediately apparent meaning, not even a cover-text.
So I don't think this helps us any.

I have always though that f49 had a Voynichese ``sentence'' written
vertically in the margin, and the apparent reprtition of the ``key'' was
just the usual Voynich word-doubling (or tripling).

Mike

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 24 23:02 EST 1997
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From: "Seth J. Morabito" <sethm@motherbrain.loomcom.com>
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Subject: Voynich: Hello out there.
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Hello everyone,

  I just wanted to introduce myself and let everyone know that 
the voynich list has one more member.

  I first became interested in the manuscript when I was at Cornell
University in 1993, where I was studying Linguistics.  A friend 
of mine was excited to find the rand.org archives and showed 
them to me, whispering in hushed tones of excitement.  It was 
all rather surreal, but fascinating.

  I didn't much think about it until a short time ago when I
decided to find out what sort of information was now available on
the Web (just a toy we played with at some CERN sites back in
"The Old Days" :-)

  I know the list is probably not very active, but it's still
good to have a place for scholarly discussion of the manuscript.

-Seth
--
Seth Morabito | Loom Communications | sethm@loomcom.com | (415) 933-7044

"The Mac memory image slowly disappears, eroded by the constant infusion
 of vibrant new BeOS code."  - Bob Herold
 

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Jan 28 16:48 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 21:42:17 GMT
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To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: introducing myself
Status: OR

This is just to announce that I have joined the voynich list and introduce
myself.  I am a research assistant in computational linguistics at the 
University of Essex, and I have been interested the the Voynich manuscript
for some time, though I am afraid I can shed no new light on it.

I first heard of the manuscript from Poundstone's Labyrinths of Reason, and
discovered the electronic transcript about a year ago, at which time I had
access to the Net but not to email.  I have no claim to be a cryptologist but
I was once a mediaevalist and edited a Middle High German manuscript for my
thesis.  I have worked through some of the archive material by Currier and
others and I might as well give my unoriginal thoughts, for what they are worth.

1.  I agree with Currier that more than one hand is at work in photographs I
have seen of the original:  the 'duct and flow' of the biological section is
different from, for instance, that of the sunflower page.

2.  Yes, there is too much pattern in the text for it to be manufactured 
nonsense.  I am prepared to believe the manuscript could be a hoax by John
Kelley (I believe samples of his writing exist though I have not seen them),
but it must be based on a meaningful original.  What I fear most is that the
present manuscript might be the transcript of a lost original by scribes who
did not understand what they had in front of them.

3.  Andrew Watson has identified the page numbering as the work of John Dee,
and a man of his authority has to be believed.  It is a general rule that the
annotations and marginalia of manuscripts are added when the text is nearly
new (manuscripts, like printed books, were avidly read for 20 or 30 years and
then became obsolete).  It is also true that manuscripts were not usually
paginated by the original scribe, but by the first owner or the librarian of
the institution where it was first kept.  I therefore think that the Voynich
manuscript can be securely dated to the 16th century quite apart from the
question of the possible New World plants in the illustrations.

4.  The text is not a simple enciphering of a well known language,  but it
strikes me as very unlikely that anybody would trouble to encipher a rare one:
for instance, pagan material in Nahuatl was recorded in the Roman alphabet.  I
prefer to think that we have to do with a complicated enciphering of a well
known language.

5.  I do not believe that we have to do with an artificial language for the
following reason.  Systems of 'real character' like those of Wilkins and 
Dalgarno lack principles of syntax and word order.  In transcribing the Lord's
Prayer, Wilkins expends immense effort to think of a 'rational' representation
of the individual words 'our,' 'father' etc but sets down each word in the
English order.  Now in the biological section of the Voynich manuscript we find
the sequence '4OFCC89' + another word + '4OFCC89.4OFCC89'and the fourfold 
repetition (interrupted
by a piece of illustration) of '40FC89', these groups being respectively the
fifth and fourth commonest in the biological section.  Regardless of phonetic
values, it is as if we encountered the sequence 'the some the the' or 'and and
and' in an English text.  As Currier said, the words can't be words.  I am
inclined to think that the 'words' represent syllables, or that the text was
divided or padded arbitrarily, or that the blank space is in fact a character.

6.  Using the electronic transcript, as I do, and not a microfilm, I get the
definite impression that successive lines are more similar to each other than
they ought to be:  more often than you might expect, you get the same letter
in the same position in two successive lines, e.g.

<f75r.7> BSC89.4OFZ89.9PAN.SC89.4OFAR.S9.EOE.SC89.4OF9-
<f75r.8> 2ARSC9.4OPAR89.8ZCX9.4OFAN.SX9.EZC89.OFCC89-
<f75r.9> 4OFS89.SCPC9.EO.4OFC89.4OFAD.SCCFC9.4OFAB.OESC89.2AE-
                             **********

I do not know if this phenomenon can be quantified, as much depends on the
accuracy of the transcription and on what counts as a single letter (are 
ligatures like 'Q' just variants of 'CPC'?).

 
I am aware that most of this has been said before, but I look forward to 
hearing from fellow enthusiasts.

Philip Neal
Department of Computer Science
University of Essex

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 29 04:14 EST 1997
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Thanks to Patrick Neal for his introductory message

He writes:
> Andrew Watson has identified the page numbering as the work of
> John Dee, and a man of his authority has to be believed.  It is
> a general rule that the annotations and marginalia of manuscripts
> are added when the text is nearly new (manuscripts, like printed
> books, were avidly read for 20 or 30 years and then became obsolete).
> It is also true that manuscripts were not usually paginated by the
> original scribe, but by the first owner or the librarian of the
> institution where it was first kept.  I therefore think that the
> Voynich manuscript can be securely dated to the 16th century quite
> apart from the question of the possible New World plants in the
> illustrations.

It is hard to be general about accepting specialists' opinion,
and it should really take another specialist to refute
the opinion of one. Now I'm not a specialist in any field related to
the VMs (Manuscripts, herbals, linguistics, cryptology) so I'm
rather stuck. But we do have conflicting specialist opinions:
E.Panofsky, expert in German Renaissance, placed it around 1470
or not much later, as a German product. S.Toresella also placed it
in that time frame, but put the origin in N.Italy (his area of
specialisation). If I may take a mathematician's approach
(Dirichlet principle): there were many more different people than
different handwriting styles, so at least one handwriting style was
shared by more than one person. I am skeptical about the attribution
of the folio numbering to Dee (but I realise my assumption
about nr of handwriting styles might be wrong).
Patrick: I don't know how many pages you have seen, but the
notation of the quire numbering is different from the folio
numbering (most obvious being the '4', which is more modern in
the folio numbering and more like an early Arabic one in the
quire numbering). Is it possible that the page nrs were added
much after the quire numbers?

And then (from Jacques' reply):
> None of the plants are recognizable. It's only our imagination that
> sees New World plants there.

I would say some plants are recognisable, but different people
see different plants. Of most plants some part seems recognisable
and the theory that the herbal section has fantasy composites (or
fantasy plants altogether, drawn by someone whose imagination is
biased by knowing real plants) seems rather plausible.
And this is really difficult, too. Look at the positive
identification of 'scarlet pimpernel' in a drawing by Crateuas
(presumably in one of the nicer issues of Dioscurides), by clicking
on link 'Botanical Illustrations as an Instument of Science', in
Gabriel's Web page. In the photograph, every single flower has five
petals. In the drawing all have four. Even if we know which plant
it is, we may still see differences that are botanically significant.

To get back to Patrick's:
> I get the definite impression that successive lines are more
> similar to each other than they ought to be:
And this is not only true for the 'known-to-be-repetitious' biological
section. Having pored over most of the early herbal section I can
confirm that it is present there as well. The last two lines of
f56v are a prime example.

I very much like Jacques' suggestion for the repetitions:

> Well, I would think that they were numbers! Two thousand two hundred
> and two

but if the Vms really says (anywhere)

> Dua ribu dua ratus dua

I will mail him a crate of beer of his choice. :-)

As always, comments are welcome,
                    Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 29 06:05 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 29 Jan 97 at 10:54, Jacques B.M. Guy wrote:

>>Philip Neal said:
> > 3.  Andrew Watson has identified the page numbering as the work of John Dee,
> > and a man of his authority has to be believed.  
> 
> Then Dee would have sold it to Rudolph II? What was it again we had
> found
> about Dee's "Book of Soyga"? Laycock used to believe that the VMS was
> Dee's "Book of Soyga", and that Kelley had filched it and sold it.

Welcome to the list Philip!

I think that the idea that either Kelley or Dee sold the book to 
Rudolph has been floating around. I even remember that there is 
mention to a sum similar to the price paid for the vms in one of 
Dee's diaries, but it does not mention to the source. I probably read 
it in Brumbaugh's book.

About the identification of page numbering to Dee, I am no expert at 
all in the subject, but I find it very difficult to believe 
that somebody can point to Dee with precision, based just on the 
numbers? If you think of it, it could be anybody's writing 
(unfortunately!).

I also been thinking of the patterns of words and it's very puzzling.
I am not very keen to believe that spaces are more than "spaces" 
because sometimes it gets very difficult to judge if it' one or two 
words (as if there was not much effort to make the spaces clear). 
I think that in the previous computer transcriptions there are a 
large number of single words that were coded as two because 
there have been a few instances of the two separate parts. i.e. (in 
eva): "daiin" and "d.aiin" and many words ending in "r".

About the book of Soyga, was it Jim R who reported having seen it?
Any comments Jim?


Finally, a "report" on the transcription: We have gone up to folio 
f57, just before the first circle (first 7 quires). We are merging 
the transcriptions with Rene and will look at the discrepancies.
This is about 2200 lines of Voynich (including comments and all the 
rest). 

regards,
Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 29 08:24 EST 1997
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Subject: Re: Philip Neal's thoughts
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
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In-Reply-To: <9701291058.AA21675@sun1.bham.ac.uk> from "Gabriel Landini" at Jan 29, 97 10:58:25 am
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> I think that the idea that either Kelley or Dee sold the book to 
> Rudolph has been floating around. I even remember that there is 
> mention to a sum similar to the price paid for the vms in one of 
> Dee's diaries, but it does not mention to the source. I probably read 
> it in Brumbaugh's book.

I haven't personally seen a reference to pricing in Dee's diaries, but there
are sections where he talks about Rudoplh's court.

> About the identification of page numbering to Dee, I am no expert at 
> all in the subject, but I find it very difficult to believe 
> that somebody can point to Dee with precision, based just on the 
> numbers? If you think of it, it could be anybody's writing 
> (unfortunately!).

Yeah, I have a few holograph Dee manuscripts, and the roman numerals don't
really look particularly similar to Dee's handwriting at all. But then,
I'm not a graphologist.......

> About the book of Soyga, was it Jim R who reported having seen it?
> Any comments Jim?

I've got a microfilm of it, which I'm ploughing through at the moment. I
hope to have a transcription, and maybe even a translation done at some
point soon.......Fingers and toes crossed!

> Gabriel

A.

-- 
Alligator Descartes       |
descarte@hermetica.com    |   "Lobey est le petit garcon!" -- Bud Neill
http://www.hermetica.com  |

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 29 08:48 EST 1997
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Alligator wrote about the Book of Soyga:

> I've got a microfilm of it, which I'm ploughing through at the moment.
> I hope to have a transcription, and maybe even a translation done at
> some point soon.......Fingers and toes crossed!

This may be a silly question (or two) but:
...any idea who wrote it/them, or when?

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 29 10:51 EST 1997
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Book of Soya:  I know of 2 copies, both in what seems to me (but I'm not
an expert) 16th century English handwriting: Sloane 8 and Bodley 908.
This book looks exactly like the sort of stuff that would have grabbed
Dee's interest.  Writing, writing backwards, ciphers, gemmatria, notarikon,
angel summoning, diagrams, all that sort of stuff.  But it does not seem
to be connected with the VMS.

It's great news that Alligator is transcribing the text; I can hardly wait
till its done.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Jan 28 19:41 EST 1997
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Neal P wrote:
 
> 2.  Yes, there is too much pattern in the text for it to be manufactured
> nonsense.

Once I tried to list the "alphabet" of the Codex Seraphinianus, which is
manufactured nonsense. I soon gave up. I had reached the 80th letter or
so, and the alphabet was not stable. It was as if you found lots of e's
in Chapter 1 and hardly any at all in Chapter 5. This is not the same
situation as in we in the VMS, with its two "hands" characterized by 
different frequencies. There is a common core between the two "dialects"
(4 almost always followed by O, for instance) which is not there in the
Codex Seraphinianus.


> What I fear most is that the
> present manuscript might be the transcript of a lost original by scribes who
> did not understand what they had in front of them.

Then we couldn't even date it. The few pictures with datable clothing
might
be the fantasy of the copyists. 
 
> 3.  Andrew Watson has identified the page numbering as the work of John Dee,
> and a man of his authority has to be believed.  

Then Dee would have sold it to Rudolph II? What was it again we had
found
about Dee's "Book of Soyga"? Laycock used to believe that the VMS was
Dee's "Book of Soyga", and that Kelley had filched it and sold it.


> I therefore think that the Voynich
> manuscript can be securely dated to the 16th century quite apart from the
> question of the possible New World plants in the illustrations.

None of the plants are recognizable. It's only our imagination that sees
New World plants there. When I showed some of the plates to a colleague
at the Australian National University many years ago, he instantly 
recognized a passion fruit and I forgot which other.
 
> 4.  The text is not a simple enciphering of a well known language,  but it
> strikes me as very unlikely that anybody would trouble to encipher a rare one:
> for instance, pagan material in Nahuatl was recorded in the Roman alphabet.  I
> prefer to think that we have to do with a complicated enciphering of a well
> known language.

... but this brings us back, full circle, to the most vexing question:
if it is a well known language, how come all attempts at decipherment 
have failed?
 
> 5.  ...  Now in the biological section of the Voynich manuscript we find
> the sequence '4OFCC89' + another word + '4OFCC89.4OFCC89'and the fourfold
> repetition (interrupted
> by a piece of illustration) of '40FC89', these groups being respectively the
> fifth and fourth commonest in the biological section.  


The infamous repetitions! 

> Regardless of phonetic
> values, it is as if we encountered the sequence 'the some the the' or 'and and
> and' in an English text.  

Well, I would think that they were numbers! Two thousand two hundred and
two
Dua ribu dua ratus dua.  
 
> 6.  Using the electronic transcript, as I do, and not a microfilm, I get the
> definite impression that successive lines are more similar to each other than
> they ought to be:  more often than you might expect, you get the same letter
> in the same position in two successive lines

I think we have all had that impression. Perhaps it is an illusion.
Consider:

non solum amare et amari, neque cantare et
saltare, sed etiam vibrare sicas, et spargere
venena: qui nisi exeunt, nisi pereunt, etiamsi
Catilina perierit, scitote hoc futurum
Catilinarium seminarium in republica. Verumtamen

Even in Latin we see patterns vaguely reminiscent
of Voynichese. More rarely, yes, but still. And 
if we introduce arbitrary spaces... look:

non solum am are et am ari neque cant are et
salt are sed et iam ....
.....  ni si ex eunt ni si per eunt, et iam si


 
> I do not know if this phenomenon can be quantified

It ought to be quantifiable. Well, it is. The question is
how to evaluate the measure of repetitiveness we obtain.
We would need to know its distribution for one thing. 
Useless to know that Cicero's Latin has a repetitiveness
of, say, 12 and Voynichese 120 (never mind those figures,
I made them up). That has to be compared to lots and lots
of other texts. 

> as much depends on the
> accuracy of the transcription and on what counts as a single letter (are
> ligatures like 'Q' just variants of 'CPC'?).

I don't think such inaccuracies would matter very much. Of greater
concern
might be the original copyists' biases. If they did not understand what
they
were copying, that is.

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Jan 29 17:38 EST 1997
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	id AA00102; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:02:03 GMT
From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 22:01:59 GMT
Message-Id: <2166.9701292201@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Moreover
Status: OR

Thanks to everybody for the response.  One or two things...

I stand by what I said about Andrew Watson's judgment:  he is a renowned 
authority on the dating of manuscripts (responsible for the Dated and Datable
Manuscripts series about the major British collections) and is the author of
a monograph identifying surviving books from John Dee's collection.  I think
he is quite able to identify pagination by Dee and is not a man to advance a
poorly considered opinion (I have met him once or twice).

Jacques Guy's point about numerals is well taken, but this explanation will not
cover *all* the repetitions, of which there are simply too many, and the groups
4OFC89 and 4OFCC89 are rather too frequent in the biological section to fit the
bill.  I have wondered whether the sequences on <f76r.11> and <f81r.5>

AE.AF.AM.AR.AN	and	OE.OE.OE.AM.OE.OR.AN

could represent Roman numerals such as

C  L  X  V  I	and	C  C  C  X  C  V  I

but these substitutions and variants do not seem to make sense of the rest of
the text.  

Incidentally, I concentrate on the biological section because it is
reputed to be a homogenous sequence and because most of the published 
photographs available to me show the pages decorated with those floozies.
I forgot to ask about the evidence that the illustrations were created before
the text.  This is a suspicious feature of the manuscript, being very unusual.
Only a small proportion of mediaeval manuscripts were illustrated at all (of
course these are the ones on show in museums) and even then, the practice was
for a scribe to leave blank spaces which a purchaser could choose to have filled
by an artist of his choice - usually.

The captions to the biological illustrations are of course later than the
illustrations themselves, but they need not be anything to do with the text:
examples I have seen seem to be lacking in the initial 4 so common elsewhere.

Philip Neal
Department of Computer Science
University of Essex

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 30 05:38 EST 1997
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Subject: The VMS as a cross-word puzzle
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Frogguy writes:

>  So... how about inventing a
> language that has all the outward properties of the VMS?
> Same alphabet, of course. Same letter distribution. And
> a vocabulary and a syntax such that a text written in that
> language feels like Voynichese?

...and of course it would have to come with a language
A to B translator (and v.v.), based on the properties
of the herbal section. 'Scherzi a parte', if such
a translator could be found, it would give valuable
insight in how the Voynich language(s) are composed.

This is assuming that both Herbal-A and Herbal-B material
deal with the pictures contained on the same pages, of course.

Cheers, Rene




From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 30 10:03 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:54:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The VMS as a cross-word puzzle
In-Reply-To: <32F12FF0.31BC@trl.telstra.com.au>
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On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jacques B.M. Guy wrote:

>  I contributed myself
> Zikamu (the simplest language ever), and Beddy-Byes (and its
> younger brother Waky-Wakies). So... how about inventing a
> language that has all the outward properties of the VMS?
> Same alphabet, of course. Same letter distribution. And
> a vocabulary and a syntax such that a text written in that
> language feels like Voynichese?

	Sounds like a good idea.  Go to it, Jacques!  To some extent, this
is what my EKT (Extended King Tut) was.  That might give you some ideas.  
	However, Mark Sullivan, who knows a lot more about medieval
studies than I do, told me that he does not think the VMs is in an
artificial language.

Dennis


From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 30 10:15 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>, voynich@rand.org
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:08:04 +0000
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Status: OR

On 30 Jan 97 at 8:54, Dennis Stallings wrote:

> 	However, Mark Sullivan, who knows a lot more about medieval
> studies than I do, told me that he does not think the VMs is in an
> artificial language.
> 

Jim R called my attention to a similar thread in sci.crypt
Here is a message that the members may find interesting:

----
From: pcw@access4.digex.net (Peter Wayner)
Newsgroups: sci.crypt


There's been some debate about identifying random text and nonsense
phrases. Most of the solutions are generally statistical. I've done
some work in the area and I think it is a really, really hard problem.
Sure it's easy to distinguish between UUENCODING and English, but it
is hard to determine what is nonsense and what is coherent. Much of
what politicians utter, for instance, is technically coherent, but
practically blather.

I've built a system for generating information from grammars and I
think it works quite well. There is a high cost for producing the
grammar, but when their produced, they can be modified automatically.

The interesting question is how hard one must work to break them. Here
are some of my arguments. The trouble is I don't know which one to
believe.

1) Figuring out which grammar generated a particular piece of text is
undecidable. No logical system nor computer will ever be able to do it
automatically. This is because of Rice's Theorem about Turing
Machines. A sufficiently complicated grammar is equivalent to at TM.

2) Determining which grammar generated some text is at least
PSPACE-complete. It turns out that even determaning whether two CFG's
generate the same language is PSPACE-complete-- if you have access to
the parse trees. If you don't, it can be undecidable. 

3) Words like "undecidable" don't really mean a thing in a practical
sense. The question is whether you can reliably build strong keys that
resist attack. I've given some arguments about the brute force size of
the attacks for a particular grammar, but I have no way of knowing how
good these arguments may be.


The best introductory discussion to the topic may be my book
_Disappearing Cryptography_. It talks about most of the details. The
paper 'Strong Theoretical Steganography' covers some of the grundgier
details about worst case analysis. The source code is also available
to US folks. Just write.

-Peter

----

Are we dealing with an unsolvable problem?
cheers,

Gabriel

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Philip Neal wrote:

> I stand by what I said about Andrew Watson's judgment:  he is a
> renowned authority on the dating of manuscripts ...

certainly, his expert opinion has been recorded as such
for posterity, and I realise I personally have only my
non-expert reasons for being skeptical.
In fact, even today I had a chance to browse through a
facsimile copy of the Dioscurides manuscript in Vienna.
This dates from the 6th century if I'm not mistaken (the
manuscript, not the facimile :-) ).
It had a folio numbering in a style very much like the Voynich
Manuscript. It was totally obvious that this foliation was
done centuries after the original was produced, so the Dee
foliation can easily be reconciled with a supposed date in
the second half of the 15th century.
I did not see any quire markings in Dioskurides, but I may
have been looking in the wrong places and there were so
many Greek and Arabic scribblings on all pages that I
simply may not have realised them being there.

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 30 12:11 EST 1997
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From: <kornai@almaden.ibm.com> (Andras Kornai)
Message-Id: <9701301704.AA17446@sevengill.almaden.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: The VMS as a cross-word puzzle
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:04:00 -0800 (PST)
Cc: denstall@echo.sound.net, voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <9701301508.AA19307@sun1.bham.ac.uk> from "Gabriel Landini" at Jan 30, 97 03:08:04 pm
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Gabriel Landini writes:
> Are we dealing with an unsolvable problem?
Not necessarily.  For the kind of unsolvability that is at issue here it is
essential to distinguish between individual problems and sets of problems.
Formal undecidability results tend to be of the following type: for a class of
problems X there is no algorithm A such that for every x \in X A solves x.
Solving the VMS puzzle is a single problem that can be construed as part of
some larger (unsolvable) class of problems X. But lack of solvability does not
inherit from class to member: the fact that the _class as a whole_ is
unsolvable doesn't imply that any of the problems in it are unsolvable.  There
are cases where a single mathematical problem (as opposed to a set of such
problems) can be demonstrated to be unsolvable, but of course the VMS puzzle
is not one of these.

Andras Kornai

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 30 16:20 EST 1997
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	id AA06847; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:12:26 GMT
From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 21:12:25 GMT
Message-Id: <8643.9701302112@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Watson
Status: OR

Jacques Guy is sceptical about Andrew Watson.

It is not all that important, but two separate points are involved.

1.  Whether it is possible to identify individual handwriting just from folio
numbers.  I believe that trained paleographers can do this.

2.  The principle that interest in a manuscript generally declines as it ages,
so that marginalia usually date from not long after it was written.  I agree
that there are many exceptions to this principle.

To these considerations we may add a third, that the further back in time you
go, the fewer manuscripts survive:  regardless of any other evidence, a 16th
century date is somewhat more probable than a 15th century one, and very much
more probable than a dating to the 13th century.  Of course, the oldest 
manuscripts are more likely to be photographed and published, which may well
give a false impression.

Philip Neal



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 30 16:23 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 21:16:15 GMT
Message-Id: <8652.9701302116@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Correction
Status: OR

I meant that Rene was the sceptic, not Jacques, as he is quite entitled to be,
of course.

Philip Neal

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From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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And now you think I'm crazy!

No. Perhaps. I subscribe to the CONLANG list where artificial
languages from pedestrian Esperanto to stranger Klingon are
discussed, and many offerings are made. I contributed myself
Zikamu (the simplest language ever), and Beddy-Byes (and its
younger brother Waky-Wakies). So... how about inventing a
language that has all the outward properties of the VMS?
Same alphabet, of course. Same letter distribution. And
a vocabulary and a syntax such that a text written in that
language feels like Voynichese?

The task is quite similar to writing a cross-word puzzle,
given the grid. Given the patterns of the VMS, we have
to invent a language (grammar and vocabulary) that
generates the same patterns.

Just yet another of my silly ideas... don't pay too much
attention.


Frogguy a.k.a. Jacques Guy

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 03:42 EST 1997
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Thanks to Frogguy for his reply. It certainly explained a few
things to me and it tiggerred  a few other thoughts, none
of which have anything to do with the original cross-word idea.
If I may be allowed to think out loud:

> The extensive sandhi of Sanskrit is very possibly its most alien
> feature. The words of a sentence are run together, most often
> with such deep phonetic changes where they meet that they become
> individually unrecognizable..[snip snip]... Consequence: each
> individual word has many different forms, so that you wonder
> why the "words" you identify occur so seldom each. Just like
> the VMS.

I would say (referring to Gabriel's article with the Zipf plots)
that the word distribution of Voynichese is not that 'bad',
but some recent experimenting with polyalphabetic substitution
showed that the Zipf curve cannot be 'taken down' that easily.
Anyway, finally understanding better what 'sandhi' are, I feel
much better about the Voynich characters 'S' and 'Z' (Currier
notation). These almost have to be such variants of the same
letter. How else would it be possible that they are mutually
exchangeable in all words where they occur. Similar
features exist for 'P' and 'F'. Now if we can find the rule
when to write 'S' and when to write 'Z' based on the surrounding
text....
Of course, this feature could also point towards a bilateral
cipher, but then the apparent text in which it is hidden
should make sense and I think that it doesn't really.

> One thing: there does not seem to be enough letters
> in the Voynich alphabet for it to be a straight mapping of the
> Sanskrit alphabet. If it is Sanskrit, it must be a sort of
> Romanized version, then.

One thing that would explain the low digraph entropy would be
a mapping of a long alphabet onto one with (say) 26 symbols,
by using combinations.

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 03:59 EST 1997
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....in fact, elaborating on the possiblity of sandhi
explaining some features of Voynichese, let's
just imagine that the text is a rendition of a spoken
language with lots of them. As it is being dictated,
the scribe writes down the sounds he hears
(and later makes a fair copy).
The 'speaker' would be asked to break up his
sentences each time a line of writing is finished
and a new one starts:
... The president told congress...
... today that all taxes would...
... be doubled.
The sound changes that should have affected the
first word of each line are not there. The first
character of the first word of a line has a different
distribution from the first character of all other words.
That 'fits the observations' quite nicely, doesn't it?

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 05:11 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
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Hi all,

Jacques has kindly contributed with an article on the VMS entitled:

The distribution of letters <c> and <o> in the Voynich Manuscript:
Evidence for a real language?
You can see it at the "Some new numerical analysis of the 
manuscript" section.

Rene also called my attention to a very interesting and (graphically) 
similar ms, the "Atlas Catalan" (in the sense that there are circles, 
and some navigation diagrams, only). Worth checking! The link to it 
is in the "Files and Links" section of the EVMT page:

http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

regards,

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 08:50 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:37:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Sandhi (WAS: The VMS as a cross-word puzzle)
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> The extensive sandhi of Sanskrit is very possibly its most alien
> feature. The words of a sentence are run together, most often
> with such deep phonetic changes where they meet that they become
> individually unrecognizable. Korean does the same, to a lesser
> extent, but is written as if it did not. I mean, you write
> han-kuk-mal-Ul just like that, but you pronounce hang-gung-mar-Ul.
> In Sanskrit you write it as it is pronounced. Consequence: each
> individual word has many different forms, so that you wonder
> why the "words" you identify occur so seldom each. Just like
> the VMS.

	You don't have to go as far afield as Sanskrit or Korean to see
this.  Compare spoken and written French.  

	English:  I didn't give them any.
(Written) French: Je ne leur ai pas en donne'.
(Spoken) French:  Jen leu rai pa zen donne'.

More or less.

Dennis



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 09:48 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 14:41:27 GMT
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Subject: Sandhi
Status: OR

As I understand it, sandhi is a phonetic phenomenon in almost all languages
(for instance in English, we write 'London Bridge' although we actually say
'LondoM Bridge'.  The point about Sanskrit is that its script is very
accurate phonetically and faithfully reproduces what was actually said.

Sandhi can be defined as phonetic assimilation over word boundaries.  Note
that the same kind of assimilation takes place within words (English has the
combination 'mb' within words, but 'nb' is not possible).  

Suppose that the Voynich 'words' are in fact syllables.  In that case, the
apparently abnormal frequency distribution of line-initial characters might
represent the true word-initial frequency and the frequency of characters
which are 'word'-initial but not line-initial would be a compromise between
their initial and medial frequency in the underlying plaintext words.
We should still expect to see sandhi assimilation over the boundaries between
Voynich 'words':  in fact the absence of an expected assimilation would be
indicative of a plaintext word boundary.  For instance, final 'M' is followed by
initial '4' in the next 'word' less often than their independent frequencies
would lead us to predict.  It might be that 'M' is never followed by '4'
within a plaintext word, but that a plaintext word ending in 'M' does not
assimilate '4' when '4' is initial in the next plaintext word.

Lastly, I would point out that sandhi assimilation in a script tends to
increase the frequency of double letters, but that it is remarkable how
seldom Voynich letters appear twice in succession (with the obvious 
exception of 'C').

Philip Neal


From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 11:05 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:56:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Atlas Catalan
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	The Atlas Catalan that Gabriel now has links to is very
interesting.  It immediately makes me think of Ramon Lull (or Lully).  I
don't recall his date, but he was from Majorca too and wrote some of his
stuff in Catalan.  D'Imperio mentions him under Ars Memoritiva and
Collateral Knowledge, and he's been mentioned in the mail archives.
	His Ars Magna (Great Art) was a system for correlating knowledge,
as well as a mnemonic device.  The Great Art used concentric wheels, each
of which had equal segments marked with words denoting qualities around
its circumference.  These concentric wheels looked much like the circular
charts in the Atlas Catalan.
	Of course, the Catalan language is very close to Occitan, the
language of the Cathars of southern France.  Oh, my...  

Dennis



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 12:17 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
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Does anybody know if there is any chance to translate the Voynich 
fonts from Jim R's site into TTF?

cheers,

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Jan 30 17:39 EST 1997
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(this was in answer to a personal message from Rene Zandbergen,
but, having written it, I thought it might be of interest to
many. So here you are)

You say you had a similar idea recently:

> It is a mechanism to translate a piece
> of text in any language to perfect Voynichese.
 
[explanation of the encoding system, straight cryptography]

No, it's not quite what I had in mind. Let me rather use an
example of how it could be done the way I meant. You mention:
 
> Something else, you once mentioned that some earlier version
> of the  EVA alphabet turned the VMs text into something like
> Sanskrit. 

This is the beginning of a solution to the cross-word. Firstly,
the Voynichoid text should be pronouceable, because at the
basis of it all is the assumption it all makes sense. Now,
FSG, Currier, Bennett, Frogguy et al. are not pronounceable,
but EVA is. So it is one step towards the solution. Next would
be to invent a Voynichoid dictionary, and to assign its entries
meanings such that chunks of VMS, or VMS-looking text, would make
sense. At about the same stage, one would need to decide on a
grammar, because just stringing together sequences of words out
of the Voynichoid-English dictionary will not produce convincing
VMS text (I am sure). In fact it amounts to a phoney decipherment.
Phoney but plausible. Just like some of the decipherments of the
Phaistos disk, or of excerpts of the Easter Island tablets (except
that they are seldom plausible). There should be several 
such solutions to the "Voynich cross-word". Some ought to me more
economical, that is, rely on fewer rules of grammar, syntax, sandhi,
etc., therefore more probable. Since the VMS corpus is so much longer
than the Phaistos disk (and even the Easter Island tablets), the set
of economical, plausible solutions ought to be much smaller.

> Yesterday, during one of my Alta Vista searches,
> I ran into a piece of text in 'Urdu' which I'm totally sure you must
> know of. Is that from the same family as Sanskrit? 

Yes. Urdu is to Sanskrit as, say, French is to Latin. And both have
borrowed from Arabic, too.

> The text
> certainly had a vague Voynich-like feeling. 

Ackkkk! And I thought I had the monopoly for zany suggestions, what
with Nahuatl and Ancient Basque!

 
> Sanskrit was mentioned a few times in the list as having some
> strange (to us) features.

The extensive sandhi of Sanskrit is very possibly its most alien
feature. The words of a sentence are run together, most often
with such deep phonetic changes where they meet that they become
individually unrecognizable. Korean does the same, to a lesser
extent, but is written as if it did not. I mean, you write
han-kuk-mal-Ul just like that, but you pronounce hang-gung-mar-Ul.
In Sanskrit you write it as it is pronounced. Consequence: each
individual word has many different forms, so that you wonder
why the "words" you identify occur so seldom each. Just like
the VMS.

> Do you know if any attempt was ever
> made to match Voynichese with Sanskrit? 

No I don't. One thing: there does not seem to be enough letters
in the Voynich alphabet for it to be a straight mapping of the
Sanskrit alphabet. If it is Sanskrit, it must be a sort of
Romanized version, then. 

Another thing: all the Malayo-Polynesian languages which have
a long written tradition use alphabet of Indian origins, related
to Sanskrit. But since Malayo-Polynesian has far fewer consonants
than Indian languages, they make do with far fewer letters. And
yes, they heavily indulge in word reduplication. (I know, I know,
it's my pet zany theory. Hold me back, or I'll show you a 
Balinese traditional paintings with nymphs bathing in a tub!)

> Do you have
> entropy figures for Sanskrit?

No. I can't even imagine what they would be. Must find a longish
Sanskrit test somewhere in transcription... my "Teach Yourself
Sanskrit" will have that.
 
> There: I didn't ask: do you think the VMs could have been written
> in Urdu?  :-)

Yes, I think that is more probable than it having been written in
Klingon!

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Jan 31 13:12 EST 1997
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Subject: Re: converting to TTF
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:37:48 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <9701311704.AA12110@sun1.bham.ac.uk> from "Gabriel Landini" at Jan 31, 97 05:03:55 pm
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> Does anybody know if there is any chance to translate the Voynich 
> fonts from Jim R's site into TTF?

If memeory serves, you could take either Bruce Grant's or Martin McCarthy's
MetaFont font, and convert them into Type1 PostScript fonts. From there,
you can use Adobe's ATM to use them in Windows, or I think there might
be a converter available......

> Gabriel

A.

-- 
Alligator Descartes       |
descarte@hermetica.com    |   "Lobey est le petit garcon!" -- Bud Neill
http://www.hermetica.com  |

From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  1 13:14 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au, voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:12:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: VMS: Towards a linguistic measure of chaos?
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Hi Jacques and all (which should include Jacques as well!):

On  1 Feb 97 at 17:22, Jacques B.M. Guy wrote:
> But both languages being in a state of total chaos, they should have the
> same entropy, shouldn't they, if entropy is a measure of chaos?

Yes, and they do "in their own way". I have made this point a 
couple of times. I think the last one when Rene calculated the 
entropy of a fragment in all the different alphabets and compared 
just the raw results. The numbers alone are as you (Jacques) say, 
meaningless if one does not consider the maximum entropy that the 
code under examination could achieve. It is not the same thing to 
have:

0111000100100110011001011001100110

in a message that *you know* only allows 0's and 1's that in one 
that allows the entire ASCII set.
If you only have the above string (let's suppose that it is received 
from our little green cousins), then you are at risk of 
assuming that they transmit in binary and then associate a 
high disorder to the message. Now, if you wait long enough, then you 
realise that it was just a part of the message and the rest is 
something else with more characters so the previous assumption is 
wrong.
I recall reading in Pierce's book something about the ergodicity of
the source, which would not probably apply to the VMS as you can 
find 2 "languages" whatever the differences may mean... (please point 
out if I am wrong!)

So as you mentioned in your message, the "real" entropy 
or a message is dependent on the the maximum entropy that it
could theoretically deliver. There is an interesting usenet group  
bionet.info-theory in which these things are discussed in relation to 
DNA, etc. In there, the same problem described by Jacques was 
discussed for a long time.
I recall reading there a measure of redundancy R=h0-h1 as Jacques 
pointed out. Bennett uses for doing comparisons h0/h1 and h1/h2.

I proposed in a private mail (to Jacques) to use the "normalised 
entropy" or the % entropy of the "maximal entropy" for the particular 
order of interest, when comparing different languages. I have no 
definite proof that it is wise to do it that way, but if not, then 
the h values are really meaningless. If we use the %, then you can 
say that:

>... the values of the entropy of the toss of a coin, of the roll of 
>a die, of 40-syllable random Voynichese, of 21-syllable  random
>Voynichese...

are at the maximum that those systems could deliver, and therefore 
are in information terms "all information", non redundant or "chaos" 
(even this is not the "Chaos" of non-linear systems).

>Another consequence? Information, in the sense of meaningful
>information, must lie somewhere between total order and total chaos,

exactly, and total order is zero entropy and total chaos depends on 
the system itself, and in terms of the VMS, it depends on the choice 
of alphabets. One problem here is that we know the alphabet coding 
for all languages except Voynichese!

>and the various figures for the entropy of the VMS which we have 
>been brandishing about are not useful measures at all of what we 
>seek.

I am not sure that this is the case IF we consider the *maximum* 
values for h2, h3, etc, and we compare the results with other 
languages considering their maximum values as well.

This is like comparing children achievements at school. Which child 
is doing "better"? You cannot compare the problems solved by 
(average?) children of 6 and 12 years old. The grades are (I think, I 
forgot my childhood :-) ) normalised to the expected outcome when 
they solve everything correctly?

Regards,

Gabriel





From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  1 15:38 EST 1997
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From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
cc: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: Towards a linguistic measure of chaos?
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On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> I proposed in a private mail (to Jacques) to use the "normalised 
> entropy" or the % entropy of the "maximal entropy" for the particular 
> order of interest, when comparing different languages. I have no 
> definite proof that it is wise to do it that way, but if not, then 
> the h values are really meaningless. 

	I had been thinking about using such a measure too.  I'm no
expert, but it seems reasonable to me.

	Obviously we have to do something.  Otherwise, we'll get different
results depending on which transcription alphabet we use for an analysis!

	Gabriel and Jacques both know Japanese.  If you analyze Japanese
written in Latin characters (romaji), you get a low entropy.  This is
because of the severe phonotactic constraints of Japanese.  It's  close to
true that a Japanese syllable may begin with zero or one consonant, have
one vowel, and end with -n or nothing.  

	However, Japanese can also be written in hiragana or katakana
(syllabic characters), due to the very fact of the severe phonotactic
constraints.  You have about 26 Latin characters, plus perhaps the long
vowels, giving 25-30 characters for romaji.  You have 50-60 characters in
each kana set (although as I recall the kana don't indicate vowel length).  

	With  romaji I'm sure even the normalized second-order entropy
would be low.  With kana I'm sure it would be higher.  How much higher
depends on word frequencies in Japanese and any rules Japanese might have
for combining syllables.  

	Perhaps some further consideration of these qualities of Japanese
will yield useful ideas.

Dennis



From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  1 19:20 EST 1997
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From: djl@montana.com (Don Latham)
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Thanks for reinforcing the difference between information(shannon) and
information(meaning).  Korzybski would be absolutely delighted.  Does this
make <information> an overloaded operator?

best, Don
Don Latham
pob 460134
Huson, MT 59846
djl@montana.com


From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  1 01:27 EST 1997
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Those French examples were not quite cases of sandhi, but
of what someone on the CON(structed)LAN(guages) list dubbed
"allegro phonology". Here is a French example, taken from
the film "Les Cousins". 

(Marie Dubois) ksavdirsa? 

In "largo" French: kEsk@savo"dirsa? (qu'est-ce que ca veut dire, ca?)

Allegro phonology is the loss of phonemes. Sandhi is something
different:
it is phonemes mutating.

One example in English (well, Australian English, I do not know
if British English does it): "thish year" for "this year". Another
one: "nop me!" for "not me!"

It is very similar to what Dutch does: ik ben -> ig ben. But: ik zou ->
ik sou.

Sanskrit takes it to extremes. Let me reach for my "Grammaire du
Sanskrit" (by Jean Varenne, editions Que Sais-je?):

"'Oh, Sun, rise!' said the wise man". That ought to be:

Suurya, udihi! iti aaha aacaaryas.

But the words of this utterance being run together this becomes:

Suuryodihiityaahaacaaryah

That was not too bad. This really is:

"here, the king offered a sacrifice" is: raajeheje (from: raajaa iha
iije)

I think that one would be quite justified in calling the mutations of
modern Celtic languages sandhi. Thus in Welsh you have:

ci "dog" (pron.: ki) but: fy nghi "my dog"

And in Breton:

ti "house"  but: va zi "my house"

From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  1 01:29 EST 1997
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Please  bear with me despite the pompous subject line.

Here is a strict CV language, that is, a language in which every
consonant is followed by a vowel and every vowel by a consonant:

 fape te naha ma ro pupuhina mo re na mafatoha ni ra pateva

This particular language has 8 consonants and 5 vowels: a, e, i, o, u
and f, h, m, n, p, r, t, and v (believe me, I know, I just made it up to
look a bit like Tahitian). This gives us 8x5=40 possible CV
combinations; 40 possible syllables, in other  words. Its first-order
syllable entropy is, by definition:

__n
\
/     - f(i) log f(i)
--
i=1

in which log is the logarithm base 2, f(i) is the  relative frequency of
syllable i and n=40, the number of possible syllables in the language.
If syllables are equally probable, then f(i) = 1/n and the formula above
reduces to -log (1/n) which is log (n). In such a case, where all
syllables are equally frequent, the entropy is maximal. In other word,
total chaos. In this example, there being  only 40 possible syllables,
it is log 40,  which is 5.32.

Consider now a similar language, except that it has only 7 consonants
and 3 vowels, so, 21 possible syllables. And each syllable is equally
probable. Total chaos again. However, its entropy is now only log 21,
which is 4.39.

But both languages being in a state of total chaos, they should have the
same entropy, shouldn't they, if entropy is a measure of chaos?

Let me take a more pedestrian example. Here is a fair coin, and I shall
toss it without any sleight of hand. Heads or tails? You cannot guess.
Total chaos. Nevertheless, there being two possible, equally probable,
outcomes (heads, tails), the entropy of the toss is log 2.

Now here is a fair die, and I roll it without any cheating. What will it
be, ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6? You cannot guess. Each outcome is equally
probable. Total chaos again. But there being six possible, equally
probable, outcomes, the entropy of the toss is log 6.

>From the gambler's point of view betting on the toss of a coin and on
the
roll of a die are fair games: there is no edge.

>From the Voynichophile point of view, there is just as much
unpredictability in 40-syllable Voynichese as in 21-syllable Voynichese
if each syllable is equally probable.

So, the values of the entropy of the toss of a coin, of the roll of a
die, of 40-syllable random Voynichese, of 21-syllable  random
Voynichese, are meaningless figures to the gambler (ah, give me roulette
wheel with a warped cylinder!), and meaningless figures to the
Voynichophile.

What, then, is the entropy? I have often read that it is a measure of
the amount of information, expressed in bits, per character, per word,
per whatever you define as the basic elements of a text. But consider
these two texts:

1. baaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaa
2. aipotvmnmtfmpvemopoeenhtrauffnpapunmvohu

The first text is complete gibberish, and so is the second. The first is
completely predictable (I just kept repeating "baaa"), and its entropy
is therefore minimal. But the second is completely unpredictable (I
generated it drawing randomly from a 13-letter alphabet), and its
entropy is therefore maximal. Yet, both are nonsense, there is no
information at all in them!

We are not using "information" in the same sense there. Commonly
speaking information implies meaning. In Shannon's theory it is
the cost of transmitting messages, period. Never mind whether they mean
anything or are just the work of a monkey at a keyboard.

Consequence? Comparing the word or character entropy of the VMS to the
entropy of this or that text in this or that language will tell us
nothing of interest!

Another consequence? Information, in the sense of meaningful
information, must lie somewhere between total order and total chaos, and
the various figures for the entropy of the VMS which we have been
brandishing about are not useful measures at all of what we seek.

As I was writing this last paragraph I was toying with alternative
measures. Rather in vain. This is what I thought of, but I do not
believe that it is a viable proposition,  so let it be just for the
record. Take the case of the language with 40 possible syllables. Its
zeroeth-order syllable entropy is log 40. If all syllables are equally
probable its first-order entropy is also log 40. If they are not equally
probable,  it is less. So I thought let us use the difference between
zeroeth and first order entropy (h0-h1) as a measure of order, and
normalize it by dividing it by h0 (i.e. the zeroeth-order entropy). So:
(h0-h1)/h0. But I am not happy at all with that. It feels arbitrary, and
my maths are so dreadful (early  high school level) that I am not up to
deriving anything interesting out of that short of spending many a
painful hour covering reams upon reams of paper and racking my brain.

I had written quite a bit more, taking a different approach, but I am
still unhappy with it. Let us leave it at that for the moment.

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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 10:33:26 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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[this is the continuation of my previous message "Towards a linguistic
measure of chaos?". It turns out quite different from what I had in mind
yesterday. Again, bear with me and my silly Tahitian-like language.
There was purpose in it]

Consider this sample text:

    pupa mipetefi no fore hopu miro peroha vopuhonu

It was generated randomly, drawing from a pool of 40 possible different
syllables with equal probabilities of occurrence. Each syllable is
completely independent from the next. Look at one syllable, try and
guess the next. You have one chance in 40 of being right. Look at two
successive syllables, three, four, however many you like, you still have
only one chance in 40 of guessing the next syllable correctly (in other
words, the n-th order entropy of such a text, Hn, is constant for any
n). Total chaos, maximum unpredictability, and maximum entropy: log N
(in which N is the number of different syllables).

Real languages and messages that convey meaning, do not behave like
that. Looking at part of the message helps guess another. In the case of
a text in a real language, looking at a segment of it helps guess the
segments nearby, and the longer the segment you have looked at, and the
closer to it the segment you are trying to  guess, the better your
chance of guessing right.

Remember now my minimum-entropy gibberish:

    baaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaabaaa

Unlike the completely chaotic language above, here, looking at a
segment of this piece of gibberish will help you guess the next. In
fact, any segment with a 'b' in it lets you guess with 100% certainty,
since this text merely consists of 'baaa' repeated forever. Not only
that, but your guess is exactly as good for segments close by as for
segments further away, however far away: knowing that there is a 'b'
here, you guess (rightly) that there is another 'b' four letters away,
forty letters away, forty million letters away. Total order, maximum
predictability, and minimum entropy. This sort of text has one thing in
common with random texts: remote segments are equally predictable (or
unpredictable) as neighbouring segments. In  other words, for highly
chaotic and for highly orderly texts alike, the n-th order entropy
(usually denoted by Hn) tends to be constant, independent from n: Hn =
H(n+1) = H(n+2) = ...... If you prefer, Hn-H(n+1) tends to zero for any
n. (I said "tends to be" rather than "is". This will be for the next
installment).

Before ending, a last thought:

I now find myself having rediscovered the wheel. It is Sukhotin who,
more than 20 years ago, discussing the properties of decipherable texts,
emitted the hypothesis that the decipherability of a text was a direct
function of its meaningfulness, and that the difference between
successive-order entropy (i.e. H2-H3, H3-H4, etc.) would probably be a
good measure of meaningfulness, the more meaningfull the text, the
greater those differences. He did not use the term "decipherable" but he
coined a word expressing the idea of "meant to be deciphered", as
opposed as "purposely encrypted to prevent decipherment". However, I did
not consciously set out with the aim of proving Sukhotin's hunch.
Sukhotin continued, hypothesizing that, given several interpretions
("decipherments") of a text, the most correct ones (or most plausible)
would be those with Hn-H(n+1) maximal for all values of n. But that will
be for a further installment, perhaps.

From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  1 19:08 EST 1997
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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 11:02:26 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: VMS: 1. entropy. 2. Sukhotin's vowel recognition algorithm
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I have received two or three queries about what algorithms 
to use to compute the entropy of texts (one query from
Portugal, and my answer bounced, probably our server's 
fault, the wretched thing does that occasionally).

I will post something on the subject soon, with the source code
of a very simple sample program (in Turbo Pascal).

Same with Sukhotin's vowel recognition algorithm.

From reeds Sun Feb  2 22:13:42 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9702022213.ZM14664@research.att.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:42 -0500
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Subject: Voynich obsns by Philip Neal
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On Jan 29, 22:01, Neal P wrote:

> Subject: Moreover
> Thanks to everybody for the response.  One or two things...
> 
> I stand by what I said about Andrew Watson's judgment:  he is a renowned 
> authority on the dating of manuscripts (responsible for the Dated and Datable
> Manuscripts series about the major British collections) and is the author of
> a monograph identifying surviving books from John Dee's collection.  I think
> he is quite able to identify pagination by Dee and is not a man to advance a
> poorly considered opinion (I have met him once or twice).
> 

I agree.  Watson is an authority on these things, and Dee's Arabic numerals
were indeed written in a very distinctive way.  Still, to a layman, it seems
amazing that one can be certain about this, just on the basis of the way
numbers are written.


> I forgot to ask about the evidence that the illustrations were created before
> the text.  This is a suspicious feature of the manuscript, being very unusual.
> Only a small proportion of mediaeval manuscripts were illustrated at all (of
> course these are the ones on show in museums) and even then, the practice was
> for a scribe to leave blank spaces which a purchaser could choose to have filled
> by an artist of his choice - usually.
> 

Evidence for drawing before writing: In the botanical section the writing seems
to fill up the space disected by plant stems.  For a while I was sure I could
track ink depletion and inkwell dips in the color plates in Blunt and Rafael.
In particular, on f33v, two stems cross the paragraph of writing, dividing it
into 3 sections.  On the whole it looks like the left section was written first,
then the middle section, the right section: the pen gets less and less inky.
Also, the alignment of writing lines seems to mismatch between the 3 sections.

Evidence for writing before drawing:  on f112v there seems to be an indented
rectangular space in the upper left corner: the first 10 lines are indented
about 8 or 9 mm, as if to leave room for an illumination.  



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Sun Feb  2 22:35 EST 1997
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Subject: Re: The VMS was written in ... by ...
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> ...in Japanese by no less than Dee himself!
> 
> That is the last zany theory, which I am sorry to say is not
> of my invention. I found it on:
> 
> http://www.westworld.com/~gnudarve/ufo/Illuminati/Illuminati-Tolken.txt

Before anyone rushes off, the original author is writing tongue firmly
in cheek -- John Dee is mentioned as the translator of the _Necronomicon_,
many references are made to Robert Anton Wilson and Robert(?) Shea's 
_Illuminatus! Trilogy_, etc., etc.

Karl

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 02:50 EST 1997
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I'm not sure who was in this thread, so I'm sending it to
the list. Sorry.
I managed to get Karl's program running on my Solaris
machine, and the result seemed reasonable, but I
could not be 100% sure. The combination of my mailer
and the 'shar' archive caused occasional line breaks
to be missed and lines split in the wrong place. I think
I got the ones from the code sorted out, but can't be
100% sure as I said. At home, I need to add code for
the index function but that should be all. I will eventually
be able to make it available as a windows executable,
but something else has priority right now. Maybe in
a few weeks....

cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 04:44 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:33:14 +0200
Subject: entropy vs. maximum entropy
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Dear all,

as Frogguy pointed out, saying that a certain row
of symbols (syllables, numbers, whatever) has
an entropy of log(21) does not tell the complete
story. If you know it was generated using 21 different
units, you know you have chaos. Also, you know
there could not have been fewer than 21 symbols.
The more symbols available when generating the
sequence, the less chaotic the result has to be called.

But we can look at the situation from two different
angles:

1.
When you have the set of units, and some rule
to string them together, you can predict all the entropies.
The number of units determines the maximum entropy
you may get, and the 'rule' determines how much
lower you will be. When generating a piece of text,
you have (e.g.) 26+1 units and a fairly complicated
set of rather loose rules.

2.
When you have a string of apparent units, and from this try to
identify both the actual set of units and the rule used to
put them together, you have a situation like we are
faced with, in the case of the Voynich text. You can calculate
the entropies, if you know the list of units. If you don't, you have
to guess a set of units and then see how the entropy comes out.
Now, the anomalous entropy values we
find for the VMs could be due to a feature of the language (i.e.
the 'rule' is unusual) or to a mistaken choice of the units.

What Gabriel and I discussed some time ago was the fact that
for three rather different selections of the units, the same
first order entropy was found. This indicates that the entropy
value seems to be the 'real' value, and also that all three
alphabets used were reasonable (or equally unreasonable).
Of course, in addition, for the Currier alphabet, the maximum
possible entropy would have been much higher than for
the EVA alphabet. That means that the text is more chaotic in
EVA than in Currier. So here we see that the 'measure of chaos'
is a result of the chosen alphabet, and not necessarily a
feature of the text. Or at least that we were not able to
measure it properly.

Does this make sense?
                Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 05:05 EST 1997
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Subject: Is this grammar?
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You probably all know the infamous:

 'i' before 'e' unless after 'c'

How about:
'8' before '9' unless after 'F'

So the VMs has to be in English....

Cheers, Rene

Disclaimer: I don't know anyone who has translated the Necronomicon.
I don't even want to have anything to do with it.



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 04:53 EST 1997
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Subject: Re: VMS: Between chaos and order, near a solution
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:43:52 +0100 (MET)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <32F61691.4360@trl.telstra.com.au> from "Jacques B.M. Guy" at Feb 3, 97 08:47:13 am
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> Because the text is random,  we know that these two frequency tables are
> not significantly different (off-hand, I can't think of a ready-made
> statistical test for this type of data; if there isn't, it
> should not be difficult to elaborate one).

Since we are comparing two probability tables here, I'd use the
Chi-squared test...
-- 
Rhamm Groohm! Auuurgh! Ogouuun. Ooorgh! Ooorgh! alex@zool.unizh.ch.

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 05:11 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
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On  2 Feb 97 at 22:13, Jim Reeds wrote:
> On Jan 29, 22:01, Neal P wrote:
> > Subject: Moreover
> > I stand by what I said about Andrew Watson's judgment:  he is a renowned 
> > authority on the dating of manuscripts (responsible for the Dated and Datable
> > Manuscripts series about the major British collections) and is the author of
> > a monograph identifying surviving books from John Dee's collection.  I think
> > he is quite able to identify pagination by Dee and is not a man to advance a
> > poorly considered opinion (I have met him once or twice).
> 
> I agree.  Watson is an authority on these things, and Dee's Arabic numerals
> were indeed written in a very distinctive way.  Still, to a layman, it seems
> amazing that one can be certain about this, just on the basis of the way
> numbers are written.

As an skeptic "layman" :-) I am interested to read more about this 
subject. Does anybody know any reference ?

cheers,

Gabriel



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 05:39 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:31:08 +0000
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Hi,

On  3 Feb 97 at 10:33, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> What Gabriel and I discussed some time ago was the fact that
> for three rather different selections of the units, the same
> first order entropy was found. This indicates that the entropy
> value seems to be the 'real' value, and also that all three
> alphabets used were reasonable (or equally unreasonable).

I can't remember exactly what I said at that time, but I think that
it was something like this: If you code in currier (with 36
characters) and get h1=4 (just an invented number) and then in EVA
with 24 and also h1=4, then the currier alphabet seems to be more
redundant, since the 4 much lower than the maximum that you can
achieve (log2(36)). Now is this an indication of anything? The
question could be posed in this way: Is is possible to find a way in
which we code the vms and we get a similar entropy to a known
language? I know that if the vms is in code or cipher, it changes it 
all... 

The problem here is that the Currier and FSG, for example have 
characters that are very unlikely to appear anyway (in eva) iiik, 
iiim, etc. so the contribution to the entropy is minimal (the bins 
for those characters will have very few occurrences, so it is (almost) 
as if they did not exist...
Same thing if we add all the weirdoes to the current alphabets, the 
weirdoes appear at most 2 or 3 times, which makes the probability of 
those characters very small...

> Of course, in addition, for the Currier alphabet, the maximum
> possible entropy would have been much higher than for
> the EVA alphabet. That means that the text is more chaotic in
> EVA than in Currier. So here we see that the 'measure of chaos'
> is a result of the chosen alphabet, and not necessarily a
> feature of the text. Or at least that we were not able to
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> measure it properly.

That is fine, but you're considering the "text" independent of the 
alphabet which I think is (at this time) impossible, since the text 
IS in a particular alphabet...

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 09:51 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:42:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: Between chaos and order, near a solution
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	The fact that (most of) your tables have total voids in the upper
left and lower right quadrants is very interesting.  I remember that some
time ago Rene Zandbergen remarked on similar voids in tables of VMs
digraphs when compared to similar tables made for Latin texts from the
Vulgate Bible.  Sounds like you're on to something!  Could it be for the
same reason - that certain combinations of letters are not allowed?  That
could be because of phonological or orthographic units like in Extended
King Tuts.  

Dennis



From monty.rand.org!jim Sun Feb  2 16:56 EST 1997
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Between chaos and order, near a solution

(a solution to measuring chaos, order, and meaningfulness, folks, not a
solution to the VMS!)


I had left off saying:

     for highly chaotic and for highly orderly texts alike, the nth
     order entropy (usually denoted by Hn) tends to be constant,
     independent from n: Hn = H(n+1) = H(n+2) = ...... If you prefer,
     Hn-H(n+1) tends to zero for any n. (I said "tends to be" rather
     than "is". This will be for the next installment).

"Tends to be" for two reasons.


First Reason.
------------

In my totally chaotic Tahitian-like language each of the 40 possible
syllables has the same probability of occurrence. Your chance of
guessing any one syllable correctly is exactly the same, however little
or however much context you are given. You need only to
know the "alphabet" of the message, that is, the list of possible
syllables. In this case the nth order entropy is exactly the same,
whatever the value of n: H0 = H1 = H2 = ... Hn = log 40 = 5.3219

My rigidly orderly baaa-baaa language having two letters, its zeroeth
order entropy is log 2, which is 1. But its two letters are not equally
probable, so that its first-order entropy is less than its
zeroeth-order, and it is only with a context of at least three letters
that its entropy reaches zero. Here: H0 = 1,  H1 = 0.9183, H2 = 0.6887,
H3 = 0.5, H4 = H5 = ... Hn = 0.

So what is going on there? I have tricked you and I shall tell you how
and why. But first, let us deal with the second reason.


Second Reason.
-------------

I know that the entropy of my chaotic language is log 40 because I know
that I generated it randomly from a set of 40 possible syllables, all
equally probable. But YOU do not know that. All you know about it is a
text only 20 syllables long, with some repeated, so that only 14
syllables are known to you.

I know that my orderly language is composed of nothing but "baaa"
because I decided so. But all YOU see of it is "baaa" repeated ten
times. As far as YOU know, "bi" may come next, or "ca" or anything.

All this is terribly annoying, and you may have recognized that it has
to do with a text being only a sample of a population, not the
population itself. "Pupa mipetefi..." is only one small sample of my
chaotic language. You would need a much, much longer sample to discover
that it has only 40 syllables, and that it is completely random. We have
had a quite a discussion on this list, about 5 years ago, about how the
higher-order values of the entropy produced by Monkey were completely
unreliable for this reason. Jim Reeds sent me a final explanation and
two ways to remedy the situation in an e-mail dated 26 August 92 (I will
implement the latter in Son-of-Monkey). But let us go back to chaos and
order, leaving the entropy for the time being.


How I tricked you and why.
-------------------------

In my chaotic language the unit is the syllable, which is always two
letters long. In my orderly language the unit is the sequence "baaa". It
is at those levels that the former is completely chaotic and the latter
completely orderly.

I have tricked you into ignoring the subunits of the chaotic language
(its 13 individual letters), which has some order (a consonant is always
followed by a vowel and a vowel always by a consonant).  I have tricked
you into looking at the orderly language at subunit level (its 2
letters), which has some disorder, instead of at its unit level
("baaa").

Think of the questions which keep cropping on this list again and again:
is this one letter or two? is that one word? are spaces used to separate
words? As Dennis Stelling just remarked: the entropy of Japanese is
quite different when romanized and when written in the syllabary (e.g.
Nippon, 6 letters but 4 syllables -- yes, four!). That is why I tricked
you. We are fooling ourselves when we look for a key to the VMS in
comparing its entropy with that of Hawaiian. What if the VMS is written
in "Extended King Tut"? Then what we now think are two or three, or four 
letters, are probably single letters!



Is total order chaos?
--------------------

This is how I generated my chaotic language:

     const vowel: string[5]='aeiou';
           consonant: string[8]='fhmnprtv';
     var i: integer;
         f: text;
     begin
         assign(f,'baa'); rewrite(f);
         for i:=1 to 20 do                   
write(f,consonant[random(8)+1],vowel[random(5)+1]);
         close(f)
     end.

I did not need a computer program to generate my orderly language. I
just typed "baaa" ten times over.

Now, if you think about it, both languages were generated exactly in the
same manner. I kept randomly drawing syllable after syllable from a list
of possible syllables. Only, my chaotic language had forty possible
syllables; my orderly language... one!


Back to the problem.
-------------------

And the problem is distinguishing between meaningless and meaningful
text.
We have seen that the property of a completely chaotic or completely
orderly text is that its nth order entropy is the same for any n. In
plain English: context is no help whatsoever in guessing what comes
next. We have also seen that even in completely chaotic texts there can
be a level with some predictability (consonants and vowels alternating
regularly). And in completely predictable texts (baaabaaa...) a level
with some unpredictability (what comes after 'a'? Sometimes 'a',
sometimes 'b'. What comes after 'aa'? Sometimes 'a', sometimes 'b'). Now
look at this table:

    f   h   m   n   p   r   t   v   a   e   i   o   u
f   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  19  32  37  18  33
h   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  22  29  25  40  16
m   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  28  22  28  14  23
n   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  17  33  23  24  31
p   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  22  23  28  26  28
r   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  20  26  23  25  22
t   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  16  24  27  23  29
v   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  18  31  25  25  24
a  22  25  20  17  21  18  19  20   0   0   0   0   0
e  30  32  18  31  27  24  22  36   0   0   0   0   0
i  31  18  27  30  25  29  31  25   0   0   0   0   0
o  29  19  27  29  27  18  27  19   0   0   0   0   0
u  27  38  23  21  27  27  20  23   0   0   0   0   0

                    Table 1: adjacent letters


Those are the frequencies with which letters were found next to each
other in a 2000-syllable sample of my chaotic language (e.g. first row:
'f' occurred 19 times followed by 'a', 32 times followed by 'e', etc.)


And here are the same frequencies, not for letters next to each
other, but for letters twenty positions apart (e.g. first row, 'a'
occurred 22 times in 21st position after 'f', 'e' 31 times, etc.).

    f   h   m   n   p   r   t   v   a   e   i   o   u
f   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  22  31  33  22  31
h   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  19  27  30  25  28
m   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  21  24  22  25  23
n   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  20  25  33  23  23
p   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  22  27  20  29  27
r   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  16  30  19  22  28
t   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  23  21  29  26  20
v   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  18  28  29  22  26
a  26  25  17  16  19  17  17  21   0   0   0   0   0
e  27  28  26  26  24  25  33  30   0   0   0   0   0
i  25  21  28  32  30  23  24  33   0   0   0   0   0
o  26  26  21  31  31  22  21  15   0   0   0   0   0
u  33  32  21  21  23  27  22  24   0   0   0   0   0

             Table 2: letters 20 positions apart

Because the text is random,  we know that these two frequency tables are
not significantly different (off-hand, I can't think of a ready-made
statistical test for this type of data; if there isn't, it
should not be difficult to elaborate one). Conversely, if these two
tables were significantly different we would know that the text is
neither random nor completely orderly. Indeed, compare those tables with
this one, of letters one position apart:

    f   h   m   n   p   r   t   v   a   e   i   o   u
f  21  17  16  16  19  16  15  19   0   0   0   0   0
h  21  13  16  25  14  15  12  16   0   0   0   0   0
m  10  20  13  12  15  14  16  15   0   0   0   0   0
n  23  15  15  17  11  18  11  18   0   0   0   0   0
p  13  17  14  20  18  14  20  11   0   0   0   0   0
r  14  20  11  11  18  13  16  13   0   0   0   0   0
t  18  13  14  16  13  15  15  15   0   0   0   0   0
v  19  17  16  11  19  11  14  16   0   0   0   0   0
a   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  30  31  32  39  30
e   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  40  47  57  38  38
i   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  28  51  37  48  52
o   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  26  47  44  28  49
u   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  38  43  46  42  37

             Table 3: letters 1 position apart

The difference is striking. It is a consequence of the strict
consonant-vowel alternance enforced in this pseudo-language.


A solution?
----------

We need a statistical test. I can't think of one, but I would be
surprised if there wasn't one. The data looks as if something akin to
chi-squared would be appropriate. Now chi-squared is a measure of
the certainty that there is a difference, it does not quantify that
difference. But dividing it by the number of observations does. So it
looks quite promising. Note also how the syllabic structure of the
language is betrayed in those tables. That too looks promising. Most of
the solution, perhaps all of it, is probably there in some branch of
mathematics or physics. Does anybody know?


A parte.
-------

Do you see how such a statistic would allow one to classify textual
documents aacording to their meaning, without having to know what they
mean? More about this later, perhaps. Much later. There would be a lot
of ground to cover.


Conclusion.
----------

The entropy of texts no longer seems to be a useful measurement of
real-language analysis.

Another failing I see with the entropy is the difficulty to account for
"intrusive text". Let me give an example. When I read in French "il ne"
I have no clear idea of what is coming next beyond that it is probably
some verb in the third person singular, or perhaps a pronoun (such 'le',
'la', 'lui', 'me',  etc.).  But I expect to see, somewhere not too far
after that unpredictable verb, very probably 'pas', less probably
'plus', 'jamais', 'rien', 'personne', 'guere' or 'que'. Worse: you
encounter mutual "intrusions". Consider:

      ________
     |        |
     |        |
     je ne sais pas ("je" predicts the final "s" of "sais", "ne"
        |       |    predicts "pas")
        |_______|

      ________
     |        |
     |        |
     il ne sait pas ("il" predicts the final "t" of "sait")
        |       |
        |_______|


And it's not only French that does that. All languages do, to varying
extents.

From monty.rand.org!jim Sun Feb  2 17:20 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 09:13:31 -0800
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Bleeding marvellous. I butchered Dennis STALLINGS' name, what
else have I stuffed up? I should refrain from writing my
pearls of wisdom in the wee hours of the morning. Ah la la,
as they write in the VMS: OPOX OPOX OPOX.

And I forgot to bring that issue of "La Bonne Cuisine" where there
is a review of the translation of a 16th-century Florentine manuscript 
on cookery and other recipes, with a picture of one page with an
illustration that would look quite as mysterious as the VMS, if the
captions and the text were not in Italian. Porca miseria!
as

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 12:26 EST 1997
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Subject: New version of VMSVIEW
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Status: OR

Hi all,
There is a new version (3.0) of VMSVIEW available from the evmt page.
This version supports a command line so it can be linked in a batch 
file with VTT.
It also supports "browsing back" previous pages, switching between 
interlinear and Voynich-only mode, and capitalisation rules in EVA 
alphabet (so connection between characters is created by using the 
capital version, like in Frogguy).
Please report any bugs or problems to me.

Cheers,

Gabriel


From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 12:51 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 17:45:11 GMT
Message-Id: <1597.9702031745@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
To: denstall%echo.sound.net@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Sandhi
Cc: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Status: OR

Dear Dennis,

Thank you for your mail.  The weekend glut of Voynich postings is very 
congenial - I would like to see more about redundancy, entropy and combinatorial
phenomena in the MS and less natter about little known books which vaguely
resemble it in appearance.

I was not on the list in time for your original mailing.  The idea of Pig
Latin grows on me:  I wonder how old the phenomenon is.  I know there are
books of Elizabethan thieves' slang which I think contain distorted words
(I will check) - and there is also German Rottwelsch and Irish Shelta.  Of
course records of vulgar speech are very scanty before modern times.

Even if we take the Voynich 'words' to be syllables or something similar,
their internal structure still requires explanation.  Taking a leaf out of
Michael Roe's book, I have modified the Currier notation into a
pronounceable equivalent, so that the beginning of 75r comes out like this:

VRETIFAKI.OFEEI.HOFAK.LIFRETI.HOFAK.LETI-
TAN.LEI.GI.DLEOG.HOGRETI.RETIFAK.REFEETI.KAK-
HOFAN.RAJ.OFREI.HEI.FEM.LEEFI.GPAN.OGFAK.OK-
TAEFEI.GFAJO.IFEEI.GLEI.FAG.TI.LEI.OF.LEI.HOFEETI-
LEIFAK.LEI.EFEEI.K.AN.OG.OGLEETI.HOKEEI.HOFI-
BREIFEEAK.OGFI.TAK.OFEI.HOFAN.REPEI.HOFEETI.HOFI-
BRETI.HOFLTI.IPAN.RETI.HOFAK.RI.GOG.RETI.HOFI-
DAKREI.HOPAKTI.TLEEFEI.HOFAN.REFEI.GLETI.OFEETI-
HOFRTI.REPEI.GO.HOFETI.HOFAC.REEFEI.HOFAB.OGRETI.DAG-
TLOK.HOPAK.RTI.LEI.HOFAN.E*EFEITI.APEI.PETI.GRETI-

Of course I am not committed to these particular values - I just find them
easier on the memory - but I think they bring out the internal structure
fairly well.  It seem evident to me that no superficial tweaking can turn
this into Latin, German or any well known language.  Faced with the sheer
frequency of group initial HOF- (4OF-), group-final -TI (-89), and sequences
of vowels like *O*E*I (*O*C*9) or *O*A* (*O*A*), I am forced to abandon
initially plausible thoughts about Arabic initial 'al, Nahuatl final tl and
Hungarian vowel harmony.  

I am all in favour of attempts to reduce redundancy.  I think my next step,
when I have analysed certain statistics, will be this.  Initial HOF (4OF) is
more frequent than initial F on its own:  similarly, final TI and ETI (89 and
C89) are more common than final T (8) and E (C).  I intend to take a large
number of such cases and rewrite each member of the pair as the other (rewrite
40FC89  as 40FC8 and 4OFC8 as 40FC89 - or something similar).  This should have
the effect of showing whether redundancy alone is the peculiar thing about
the text, or whether there is something else at work.

Philip Neal
Department of Computer Science
University of Essex



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 12:59 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:51:51 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702031751.MAA10711@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Message on Book of Soyga?
Status: OR


Hmmm...I sent a reply to a message on the Book of Soyga, and I haven't
seen it yet...did I accidentally just send it to one person (Jim R.
maybe) rather than the group (due to a quirk in RMAIL's reply function)?
If so, and that person still has it, please forward it to the group.

Thanks,

Karl

From reeds Mon Feb  3 13:02:29 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:02:29 -0500
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Subject: Voynich message from Karl Kluge
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On Feb 2, 22:56, Karl Kluge wrote (quoting me quoting Philip Neal):

> Subject: Re: Philip Neal's thoughts
> 
> > Book of Soya:  I know of 2 copies, both in what seems to me (but I'm not
> > an expert) 16th century English handwriting: Sloane 8 and Bodley 908.
> > This book looks exactly like the sort of stuff that would have grabbed
> > Dee's interest.  Writing, writing backwards, ciphers, gemmatria, notarikon,
> > angel summoning, diagrams, all that sort of stuff.  But it does not seem
> > to be connected with the VMS.
> 
> ...although we had pretty much figured that out before Harkness stumbled
> across it in plain sight (I was amused to find that a copy of the Sloane
> catalogue entry popped up on a web search I made right after Jim told me about
> this -- how very "Purloined Letter").
> 
> > It's great news that Alligator is transcribing the text; I can hardly wait
> > till its done.
> 
> Indeed -- I hope an e-text translation will be available soon after :->
> 
> Kuddos to Jim for deciphering the pattern underlying the tables that vexed
> Dee so, by the way -- as I told him, I can only hope Uriel (the archangel)
> was correct in telling Dee:
> 
> > /_\ --- I was told, that after I could read that boke, I shold liue but two
> > yeres and a half.
> > 
> > VR --- Thow shallt liue an Hundred and od yeres.
> 
> (You know, come to think of it, right before that Uriel tells Dee:
> 
> > /_\ --- Will you give me any instructions, how I may read those Tables of
> > Soyga?
> > 
> > VR --- I can---But solus Micha\"{e}l illius libri est interpretator.  [Only
> > Michael is the interpreter of that book.]
> 
> Hmmm...maybe we have the start of a religious cult here. Jim, has John
> Travolta been playing you in any recent movies?)
> 
> While the Book of Soyga may not be linked to the Voynich Mss., I think it may
> be linked to something else: the Rosicrucians. Jim (in a draft paper he
> graciously gave me to read) remarks:
> 
> > * In contrast to most medieval or renaissance works, the text has extremely
> > few references to known authors or personalities.  There are no recognizable
> > _auctores}.  Other than occasional mention of a few Old Testament names such
> > as Moses, and two references to _Libro Geber_ [ff.116v, 126r][B908], and an
> > inexplicable marginal gloss ``Steganographia'' on [f123v][B908], which could
> > be construed as a reference to J. Trithemius, there are no references to
> > recognizable personalities.  Instead, it makes numerous references to such
> > works as the 15th chapter of _liber E_, to _liber Os_, _liber dignus_,
> > _liber Sipal_, _liber Munob_, and the like.
> 
> Now, the only other place I've heard reference to something like a Liber E is
> the Rosicrucian Manifesto (or _Fama_). According to the translation in Yate's
> _Rosicrucian Enlightenment_, at 17 in Damascus, C.R. translated Book M from
> Arabic to Latin (p. 239); Paracelsus had read Book M, although he was not of
> the Ros.  Brotherhood (p. 241); first of the fraternity to die was J.O. in
> England -- well learned in Cabala, as his Book H shows -- cured young Earl of
> Norfolk of leprosy (p. 244). (Page refs to Barnes & Noble reprint.)
> 
> [As an aside, this would have to be one of the Mowbray Dukes of Norfolk, as
> Christian Rosen-whatever's life ran (supposedly) from 1378 to 1484, and John
> Mowbray (the second Duke) lived 1392-1432, while John Mowbray (the 4th and
> last) died in 1476 (at which point, unless I misrecall, the title went to the
> younger son of Edward IV (one of the "Princes in the Tower") through
> marriage).  Interesting question -- a circumstantial detail like this would be
> odd to make up out of whole-cloth -- was there a rumor that one of these Dukes
> had suffered from leprosy as a child? Can J.O. be identified?]
> 
> The impact of Dee on the Rosicrucian movement is well established by Yates,
> via connections such as Christian of Anhalt, who was a close friend of Peter
> Wok of Rosenberg, the younger brother of Villem, Dee and Kelly's host and
> patron. Could the references to Liber H and Liber M in the _Fama_ be echoes of
> the references to Liber E, etc., in the Book of Soyga? Are there any other
> unique similarities? Did the Duke of Lauderdale, who apparently had Sloane 8
> after Dee's death, play any role in the connections to the Rosicrucian
> movement partially traced by Yates?
> 
> Sorry for the odd excursion from matters Voynichal...at least by not bringing
> the Templars into it I avoided descent into lunacy as per Umberto Eco:
> 
> > "A lunatic is easily recognized. He is a moron who doesn't know the ropes.
> > The moron proves his thesis; he has a logic, however twisted it may be. The
> > lunatic, on the other hand doesn't concern himself with logic; he works by
> > short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else. The lunatic is
> > all idee fixe, and whatever he come across confirms his lunacy. You can tell
> > him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of
> > inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the
> > Templars."
> > 
> > "Invariably?"
> > 
> > "There are lunatics who don't bring up the Templars, but those who do are
> > the most insidious. At first they seem normal, then all of a sudden..."
> 
> Karl
>-- End of excerpt from Karl Kluge



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 14:30 EST 1997
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From: firthr@db.erau.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Voynich message from Karl Kluge
Status: OR

Folks

> Instead, it makes numerous references to such
> works as the 15th chapter of _liber E_, to _liber Os_, _liber dignus_,
> _liber Sipal_, _liber Munob_, and the like.

Sounds like alchemy to me.  "Sipal" is just "lapis" backwards, so
this is dog-latin for "the book of the stone".  My guess is that
said book is Roger Bacon's "Speculum alchimiae", which we know
Dee had & translated and which is mostly about the famous - or
infamous - Stone. And "Munob" is of course "bonum", so that's
"the book of the good" or even, perhaps "the good book"?

My guess for Liber E is Bacon's "Epistola de secretis operibus
artis & naturae".  No guesses for Liber os (book of the bone?)
or Liber dignus (worthy book?).

Oh, and CR's Liber M might be the "Medulla alchimiae", supposedly
a letter on alchemy written by Alexander the Great to Aristotle,
translated into Arabic and then latin.  (And if you believe that
I have some Hitler Diaries to sell you)

All of which, alas, has no tangible connection to the Voynich Ms.

Robert




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To: voynich@rand.org
From: firthr@db.erau.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Liber Geber
Status: OR

Folks

O the joy of finding the Bodleian Library manuscript catalogue
on the Web!  So I checked it, and duly found

        "Geberi arabis de arte alchymica libri sex"

Written in the 14th century and in the collection of Elias Ashmole.
Almost certainly accessible to John Dee.  Entropy unknown.

TTFN
Robert





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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:01:03 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: The VMS was written in ... by ...
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Status: OR

...in Japanese by no less than Dee himself!

That is the last zany theory, which I am sorry to say is not
of my invention. I found it on:

http://www.westworld.com/~gnudarve/ufo/Illuminati/Illuminati-Tolken.txt

Here is a (short) excerpt of that text:

   "Dee has to send a written version of the plan over the long voyage
to
Japan without revealing its contents to *anyone*.  To do this, he first
writes the message in Japanese (perhaps with the help of a
Japanese-speaking
merchant who later mysteriously disappears?) and then encodes it for
transmission.  He makes several copies of this missive, one of which
exists
today as the Voynich Manuscript (now you know why linguistic analysis
has
revealed that the Voynich M. is not in any European language), and puts
it on
the slow-boat to China, where it is carried by Dutch merchants to the
great
port of Nagasaki. The Dutch hand it off to the Japanese along with best
wishes from Dee, and local scholars, knowing the Manuscript's language
and
general origin, manage to break its code.  The Manuscript is immediately
sent
to the generalissimo, Baron Hideyoshi, who sees that the best way to
protect
the secret is to get rid of the Europeans in Japan."

I haven't read further. I don't even know what the famous secret is. It 
is clear that Friedman lied when he claimed  that he did not manage to 
crack the VMS. Since it is in Japanese, obviously he DID succeed in 
deciphering it. So why did he lie? Because he was an Illuminatus
himself,
that's why. Now why haven't I cracked it, since I know Japanese???

I'll give you three guesses...

Aaarrggghh! My plan is undone! My secret is revealed!

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 17:26 EST 1997
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Subject: RE: Voynich message from Karl Kluge
From: mlynch@mail07.mitre.org (Michael S. Lynch)
To: voynich@rand.org
Message-Id: <970203153333.21730@mail07.mitre.org.0>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 15:33:39 -0500
X-Mailer: MailWorks 2.0-2
Status: OR



>On Feb 2, 22:56, Karl Kluge wrote (quoting me quoting Philip Neal):
>> > inexplicable marginal gloss ``Steganographia'' on [f123v][B908], which 
could
>> > be construed as a reference to J. Trithemius, 


Dee had looked long and hard for a copy of the Steganographia finally copying 
one by hand, (of course) on his European trip.
(from the Charlotte Fell Smith Biography):
Dee's treatise, with its hieroglyphic and cabalistic signs, took long to 
print. He announces in the letter to Cecil  a great bargain he has picked up, 
a work, "for which many a learned man hath long sought and dayley yet doth 
seek," upon cipher writing, viz. Steganographia, by the famous Abbot 
Trithemius of Wurzburg.  It is the earliest elaborate treatise upon shorthand 
and cipher, a subject in which Cecil was particularly interested.  It was then 
in manuscript (first printed, Frankfort, 1606).  Dee continues that he knows 
his correspondent will be well acquainted with the name of the book, for the 
author mentions it in his Epistles, and in both the editions of his 
Polygraphia.  He urges its claims upon the future Lord Treasurer, already a 
statesman of ripe experience, in the following words:  "A boke for your honor 
or a Prince, so meet, so nedefull and commodious, as in human knowledge none 
can be meeter or more behovefull.  Of this boke, either as I now have yt, or 
hereafter shall have yt, fully wholl and perfect, (yf it peas you to accept my 
present) I give unto your Honor as the most precious juell that I have yet of 
other mens travailes recovered."
	He then goes on to beg the minister and Secretary of State to procure for him 
that "learned leisure (dulcia illa ocia) the fruit whereof my country and all 
the republic of letters shall justly ascribe to your wisdom and honorable zeal 
toward the advancement of good letters and wonderful, divine, and secret 
sciences."  Dee had copied in ten days, "by continual labour," about half of 
the book:  a Hungarian nobleman there has offered to finish the rest, if Dee 
will remain in Antwerp and direct his studies for a time.

	"Of this boke the one half (with contynual labour and watch, the most part of 
10 days) have I copyed oute.  and now I stand at the curtesye of a nobleman of 
Hungary for writing furth the rest; who hath promised me leave thereto, after 
he shall perceyve that I may remayne by him longer (with the leave of my 
Prince) to pleasure him also with such pointes of science as at my handes he 
requireth.
	"I assure you the meanes that I used to cumpas the knowledge where this man 
and other such are, and likewise of such book as this, as for this present I 
have advertisement of, have cost me all that ever I could here with honesty 
borrow, besydes that which (for so short a time intended) I thowght needefull 
to bring with me, to the value of xxlib.  God knoweth my zeale to honest and 
true knowledg; for which my flesh, blud, and bones should make the 
marchandize, if the case so required."



there are no references to
>> > recognizable personalities.  Instead, it makes numerous references to 
such
>> > works as the 15th chapter of _liber E_, to _liber Os_, _liber dignus_,
>> > _liber Sipal_, _liber Munob_, and the like.

Librii Sipal and Munob are Liber Lapis and Liber Bonum it seems. The Book of 
the Stone and the Good Book.

<signed>
Frater Ecclesia of the Palmsters


From monty.rand.org!jim Sun Feb  2 23:00 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:53:01 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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I found a roll of Voynich wallpaper at:

http://www.jyu.fi/~paasivir/crypt/index.html

and two very good colour photos of folios f33v (the
"sunflower") and f34r. They look like the ones on p.90
and 91 of Blunt and Raphael's "Illustrated Herbal",
but on closer inspection I do not think that they are:
they have more colour and detail than the plates in
Blunt & Raphael. There is a fuzzy black and white 
photo of f77v and links to other pictures.

The rest of my search on "Voynich" in InfoSeek (222 
documents returned) brought nothing new. The VMS is
very often associated with the Necronomicon and...
Cthulhu!

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 18:38 EST 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Re recent letters from Kluge, Firth, and Lynch:

Sure, the Book of Soyga has lots of backwards writing; sipal=lapis and
munob=bonum, without a doubt.  For the really naughty, there is a Retap
Retson in it, too.  And Soyga=Agyos, no matter what Uriel told Dee.
There's a Murer Rotaerc, too, and several other backwardisms.

And yes, John Dee was keen on Trithemius and his Steganographia.  But
the Book of Soyga is not Trithemius's Steganographia, and I cannot make
sense of the marginal note on f123v of Bodley 908.  There does not seem
to be any direct reference to Trithemius or to his Steganographia in the
main text of that page of the Book of Soyga.

I see no connection between the Book of Soyga and the Voynich MS, other than
John Dee's probable ownership of both.  I would suggest purely Soygalogical
discussion be taken off-line.
 

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 21:02 EST 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
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Along the lines of the recent "Voynich crossword" thread, it would be
interesting to have a "Voynich Turing test" - people could produce their
own VM-like texts (with a program, a grammar, or by hand), pair them 
with a random sample from the VM, and let others try to guess which is
real and which is VM-oresque!

Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu)

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb  4 03:41 EST 1997
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Dear all,

Jacques writes:
> .. It is
> even nastier: "h", "ch" and "sch" are all different units in German,
> yet they share the same... subatomic particle "h"

Jacques, you just invented 'quark overloading' :-)

More seriously:
> That 4 is always followed by O (not quite always but so
> amazingly often that we can say "always" for all practical
> purposes).

When it's not, more often than not one has 49, indicating
that 9 could be some variant (abbreviation) for O-something,
or just word-final O.

Cheers, Rene




From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb  4 07:32 EST 1997
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Robert Firth writes:
> So I checked it, and duly found
> "Geberi arabis de arte alchymica libri sex"

I had figured that this would have been 'book of
rocks' i.e. stones or minerals, but I don't really
know any Arabic.

Anyway:
If the discussion is taken off-line (probably rightly)
please let us know how or where. Whereas I would
not be able to contribute, I'd certainly like
to hear about any progress.

Cheers, Rene




From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb  4 10:44 EST 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
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 From Denis V Mardle    e-mail  denis.v.mardle@btinternet.com       
 UK phone no.   01242620302     
  Address    'Milford', Church Lane,
                   Teddington,              
                   Tewkesbury,
                   Glos.   GL20 8JA   UK          

 Welcome to all those who know me and to those who don't.      I would =

 like to join the VMS study group.  I started to look at the problem in =

 1969 using the  incomplete facsimiles  of folios 1-56 and a few all text
 folios from the end section.  This was  all the British Museum  had. 
   Later I obtained varios copies of odd folios from books and articles =
plus
 Mary D'Imperio's very useful review of the whole subject.  Since my 
 retirement from GCHQ in 1989 I  have gone back to the problem in fits
 and starts, but as a Statistician and Cryptologist I may  be able to pro=
duce
 new thoughts and confirm old ones.   For instance I can confirm that bot=
h 
 sides of a folio in the botanical section  have text in the same hand =
and

 most likely  for the plants also ( but perhaps done by someone else, 
 certainly before the text was added ).  From  statistical oddities at =
the ends
 of lines and elsewhere I believe these  folios are not bound  'in order'=
 
 as produced, but may relate to some unknown logical order.  

   To illustrate the statistics I used a feature that is normally found =
rarely at the
 ends of lines or at breaks due to diagrams. I did this from the enlarged=
 prints
 of the folios but you can check by looking for characters   J,K,L,5,6 =
and 7 in
 Curriers data which does not show the diagram breaks  ( these could easi=
ly be
 inserted by putting // vice / and perhaps /// for extra long  spaces on =
a line ).

    Counts  by folio for non line-ends and line-ends are :-
  f1r    0   1      f2r    0   0      f3r   16 10     f4r    0   2     =
 f5r    0    0    f6r   4   5 
  f1v   0   2      f2v   0   0      f3v    7   5     f4v   0   1      f5v=
   0    2    f6v  5   4 

  f7r    0   2      f8r    0   6      f9r     0    0    f10r   0   2   =
  f11r   0    1       etc.
  f7v   0   0      f8v   0   2      f9v    0    1    f10v  0   0     f11v=
  0    2       etc.


   In frequency order by non line-ends  we have :-

   f3   23  15      f24   15   5    f54   12  10    f6    9   9      f52 =
   8    7     etc.

       In my next message I'll discuss the importance of isolated words =
, mostly
 one but sometimes two or three  against  human figures in the Zodiac and
 biological sections plus roots of herbs plus one for IVY on its own in =
the
 pharmaceutical  section   and  why some flowers have all three parts cor=
rect
   -     f2v   is definitely   the  Yellow ( or white )   WATER-LILY.

   Also we should do a general attack by treating words as code elements =
 so
 surely  one-word labels have to be nouns.

  A last point    f33v and f34r  are in the soft cover book A-Z of Myster=
ies under
 V for Voynich,  pp 225-229   and they are in colour.

         Best  wishes.        Denis     

PS  I have received a great deal of  'voynich' e-mail recently.  I'll com=
ment on
 relevant ones in future messages.


From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 17:26 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:34:13 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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It came to me as I was half-way through the first cup
of coffee, still not very awake. When I peek inside
my In-Box with thos 39 messages I will probably discover
that some of you had the same idea, but let me write mine
down before I forget (I am still not quite awake).

The 2-dimensional aspect of those frequency tables is
a red herring. They are really lists of 2-tuplets, 
each with an associated frequency. So, comparing
two such tables is comparing two lists, each with 
the same members (fa, fe, fi...). If the text is
random each members should have approximately 
equal frequencies in the two lists. Further, we
do not deal with texts of infinite length. So,
given a text 100 syllables long, if we want to
compare the list of adjacent 2-tuples with that
of 2-tuples 50 apart, the frequencies in the 
second list will be have as much as those in the
first. Well, you have guessed: a linear regression
is perfectly adequate. The distribution is even 
close to homoskedastic! So all is well.

Note how the correlation coefficient between last two 
tables in my previous posting is -1 (they are the tables
which betrayed the strict alternance between consonant
and vowels).

Now, the tables I have used in my posting yield measures
equivalent to the 2nd-order entropy.

We build a table corresponding to the nth-order by counting
the frequency of occurrence of single letters in contexts
of n-2 letters, e.g.
   
   f h m n p r t v a e i o u  
fa 4 5 4 3 2 5 2 3 0 0 0 0 0
fe .........................
 
The difference is, for each order n we obtain a whole
series of correlations, one for each distance of the
predicted letter from its context of n-2 letters.
Note how, in my random language, the "entropy vector"
is a series of alternating +1 and -1 for all values of
n.

Ouf! ( ouf = whew ) It's written down. Now I can
open my mailbox.

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 16:51 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:41:03 -0800
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Subject: Re: VMS: Between chaos and order, near a solution
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Dennis Stallings:

>         The fact that (most of) your tables have total voids in the upper
> left and lower right quadrants is very interesting.  

That pattern is what betrays the strict consonant/vowel alternance of
the
language. In real Tahitian you would have total voids where consonant
meets consonant, and near voids (that is, low frequencies) where vowel
meets vowel. In my random language the total voids are (I think) the
signs what, when looking at letters, we are looking "too close" to the
data. That the _significant_ unit, atom, whatever, of the language is
not the letter but the syllable. The difficult problem with a real
languages is that the significant atoms are normally of varying lengths.
Thus in German "sch" is one atom, "ng" another, "k" another... It is
even nastier: "h", "ch" and "sch" are all different units in German,
yet they share the same... subatomic particle "h"


> Could it be for the
> same reason - that certain combinations of letters are not allowed?  

Yes, I think so.

> That
> could be because of phonological or orthographic units like in Extended
> King Tuts.

You know what seems to be the strongest evidence for an Extended King
Tut
code?  That 4 is always followed by O (not quite always but so amazingly
often that we can say "always" for all practical purposes).

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb  3 19:23 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:38:51 -0800
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Now that I am fully awake I have re-read my original "Eureka!"
message. It was certainly not elegantly worded! But it still
holds together.

Consider again my totally chaotic Tahitian. I'll denote my
measurement of chaos by hmmm... what? let us say Cn where
n parallel the notion of n-th order with the entropy. In
chaotic Tahitian:

C2 = -1, +1, -1, +1, ...
C3 = -1, +1, -1, +1, ...
C4 = -1, +1, -1, +1, ...
...
Cn = -1, +1, -1, +1, ...

Let us examine C2. Remember that this is the list of
correlation coefficients between the frequency tables
of pairs of letters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... letters apart.

The first correlation, -1, is that observed between
the frequency distribution of adjacent letters 
(so that vowels and consonants always next to each other)
and the frequency distribution of letters one letter
apart (so that a consonant is always found in the "mediate"
environment of a consonant and a vowel of a vowel).

Note how the exactly same figures of C will obtain with 
syllables (hence letters) not equally probable.

Imagine now that I make my language a little less chaotic.
Context will become somewhat useful in guessing.
The more context you have, the better your guesses will
become. The further away you try to guess from the context,
the worse your guesses will become (i.e. the closer to
random guesses). So, instead of alternating between -1
and +1 the values of C while oscillate around zero with
diminishing amplitude, something like this:

C2 = -1 +0.95 -0.88 + 0.75 -.... +0.01 -0.005 .... 0.0

What of higher-order values of C?

The more context, the better the guesses, and therefore,
I should expect, the further away you can guess. So, 
I expect to see higher-order values of C converge more 
slowly to zero than lower-order.

For a real language, one that does not have an exact
alternance of consonant and vowel, the first correlation
coefficient of each C will be less than -1 since the
negative relation is not perfect.

This is just about as far as I care to go in speculating
what we can expect to observe. Now is just about the time
to start experimenting. 

I seem to remember that there is a problem in computing linear
correlations on a PC, which has to do with accumulating errors.
(or is it with the computation of the standard deviation?). At
any rate, I remember having seen, on a comp.lang.pascal newsgroup,
an algorithm that avoid accumulating errors. But I do not remember
making a note of it (it was quite some time ago). Perhaps someone 
knows?

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb  4 17:53 EST 1997
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Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:27:05 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
 
> Robert Firth writes:
> > So I checked it, and duly found
> > "Geberi arabis de arte alchymica libri sex"
 
> I had figured that this would have been 'book of
> rocks' i.e. stones or minerals, but I don't really
> know any Arabic.

And I immediately thought that "geberi" was latinazation
of jabr, whence "algebra" is said to have come (al-jabr).

On a more immediate topic, Rene has stumbled upon a very
strange Italian dialect, which, his tongue in his cheek,
he says is the language of the Voynich manuscript. Well,
it is so strange that I could almost believe it. 
> 
> Anyway:
> If the discussion is taken off-line (probably rightly)
> please let us know how or where. Whereas I would
> not be able to contribute, I'd certainly like
> to hear about any progress.
> 
> Cheers, Rene

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb  5 16:35 EST 1997
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I found something which seems very much like it in:

Hecht-Nielsen, Robert. Context Vectors: General Purpose
Approximate Meaning Representations Self-Organized from
Raw Data. pp43-56 in "Computational Intelligence Imitating
Life", J.Zurada, R.Marks and C.Robinson eds, IEEE Press,
New York

It goes in a different direction from mine, though. Well, no,
since it is more concerned with categorizing documents (I
mentioned that, but that was not was I was after at this
stage).

Last night I started writing a program to compute those chaos
vectors. I went about it the silly way, typing away without
thinking first. Of course, when it came to *thinking* I
realized that I would need gigabytes of RAM to compute
higher-order "chaos". Forced to stop, I thought about it
a bit more. Only to realize that the index structure of
Monkey was the solution. Yet another reason to press on with
Son-Of-Monkey, I suppose. But this also gives me an excellent
pretext to write a "Son-Of-Monkey" article.

From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  8 10:32 EST 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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>From Denis V Mardle

      Jim Reeds on   3 Feb 1997.

 <And yes, John Dee was keen on Trithemius and his Steganographia. > 

 I noted this on 24 Aug 1969   -   " If a cipher system like Trithemius' =
"Steganographia" with 
only certain letters ( and certain words ) valid, the rest being nonsense=
 ( see David Kahn's 
book  'The Codebreakers'  page 131 ), the initial letter of some lines =
could indicate the 
method - and there is much scope for artistic licence in the nonsense are=
as.   This could also 

account for repeated words ( if words are omitted as in the reference ). =
       A cipher disc 
system with nulls might also be possible ( c.f.  ALBERTI same ref p127 =
)    Paragraph or line 
starts could show the initial setting with regular or irregular ( keyed =
) movement.   This 
explanation would fit a 1500 +-  date much better "
     I realise that the strong within word structure is not easy to fit =
with the above note.  On the 
other hand see how regular line starts can be on some folios  e.g.  f78v =
(p154) has starts of   
40   on  lines 3, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26.      and  f83v (p164)  =
 has  40   on lines   3, 5, 7.  
 -para ends with line 8  plus two labels on two drawings-   lines 11, 13,=
 15, 17   -para ends line 
18  -      lines 19, 21, 26, 28, 30.       f84v   has   40  at lines   =
3, 6, 8, 10,  13, 15, 21, 23, 28, 
30, 32, 34, 36.           The significance of line starts needs a more =
detailed study.  

 <Evidence for writing before drawing:  on f112v there seems to be an ind=
ented

rectangular space in the upper left corner: the first 10 lines are indent=
ed
about 8 or 9 mm, as if to leave room for an illumination > 

  I have had another look at f112v since I had noticed this a long time =
ago.  In  fact there are 
two discrete steps  - the 10 lines mentioned ( two stars and paragraphs =
)  then about half the 
first indentation for 12 more lines (three stars and paragraphs ).   The =
stars also slope off the 
vertical.   The top left hand corner of the page appears to be damaged =
and I suggest this 
happened before the text was written so requiring the lines to start furt=
her over than on the 
later lines.   

  Back to folio 2v.   The single large flower appears to be white..   The=
 single large leaf with 
the stalk off centre is very clearly a water-lily leaf..  The roots look =
as if they have a pair of 
eyes each.  This clinches the identification.  I quote from Nicholas Culp=
eper (1616-1654)  an 
astrologer/herbalist still popular today    "  The white (water) lily has=
 very large and thick dark 
green leaves lying on the water, sustained by long and thick foot-stalks,=
 that rise from a 
great,thick,round,and tuberous black root,spongy or loose, with many knob=
s thereon, like 
eyes, and whitish within;  from which rise similar stalks, sustaining one=
 great flower thereon, 
greenon the outside, but as white as snow within, ........... "      Late=
r  " It is under the 
dominion of the Moon ........."   The Latin name is  Nympho(r?)a  Odorata=
.

  To round off on a controversial note  -  I do not believe folios 59-64 =
( 12 pages ) are missing 
!!   In Newbold   ( Ed. Kent 1928 )     The cipher of Roger Bacon  ,  a =
careful tabulation is 
given including multiple and missing pages by section.  This lists folios=
 12, 74, 91, 92, 97, 98, 
109,  110 as missing with 16 pages ( two per folio ) to be taken from 262=
 leaving 246 as 
extant.  This is the figure given by Father Petersen on page 5 of Mary =
D'Imperio's treatise.   
So what has happened ?  Were  f59-64 too poor or delicate to copy or were=
 they not copied 
by accident ? Or what ? Clearly a check would soon settle the point.

 Enough for today.        Denis


From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Feb  7 09:53 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:43:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Catharism: Narrowing the Field
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    I'm still working on a paper on Catharism and Levitov.  I have some
thoughts on Catharism and related medieval movements.  I'd like comments
on my reasoning. 

1) *Manichaeism* Catharism and Bogomilism (Slavic Catharism) were
Manichaean.  They rigorously equated matter with evil and spirit with
good.  The perfecti, the full Cathars, had to lead a very ascetic life. 
Here is an excerpt from the Traditio, the ritual for reception into the
community of Perfecti. 

    Elder: "Do you promise that 
    
            henceforth you will eat neither meat nor eggs, 
            nor cheese, nor fat, 

            and that you live only from water and wood 
            (i.e vegetables and fish) ,

            that you will not lie, 

            that you will not swear, 

            that you will not kill, 

            that you will not abandon your body to any 
            form of luxury, 

            that you will never go alone when it is possible 
            to have a companion [to avoid temptation], 

            that you will never sleep without breeches 
            and shirt [to avoid sexual temptation]

            and that you will never abandon your faith for fear 
            of water, fire or any other manner of death?" 
    
  - from Chapter 9, *The Treasure of Montse'gur", Birks and Gilbert. 

    The VMs, with its illustrations of plants and especially the female
nudes, is very earthy.  It seems unlikely that Catharism could have
produced something like the VMs. 

    A similar argument could be made for the cult of courtly love that
flourished in southern France and northern Italy at the same time as
Catharism.  This was love for a distant, aristocratic lady, and etherial
adoration.  This was not earthy like the VMs. 

2)  *Cyrillic Script* D'Imperio notes that the Voynich characters seem to
be derived from early Arabic numerals and medieval Latin abbreviations. 
Therefore, it seems to me that this would eliminate cultures that use the
Cyrillic or Glagolithic alphabets. 

    The Bogomils in Bulgaria used the Cyrillic alphabet.  There was some
sort of medieval Bosnian Church that was distinct from both the Orthodox
and Catholic Churches.  Whether the Bosnian Church was Bogomil or not is
controversial.  However, from what I've read, the written records and
monuments from it use the Cyrillic script.  So we could eliminate the
Bogomils and the Bosnian Church on this ground. 

3)  *Bosnian Grave Monuments* I've seen several references to the odd
gravestones that survive to this day in Bosnia and Hercegovina. 
Bihalji-Merin and Benac, *Bogomil Sculpture*, gives many excellent
pictures of these.  (The text in this book also says it's controversial
whether these monuments are in fact Bogomil.)  The human figures on these
tombstones don't remind me of Voynich images at all.  The female figures
are all clothed, with skirts, and drawn with all straight lines that don't
resemble the curved, voluptuous female nudes in the Voynich Manuscript. 
There are rosettes, but these are much simpler than those in the Voynich
Manuscript. 
    
    The inscriptions in these pictures are all in some type of Cyrillic
script. 

    Both of these things would eliminate the Bosnian Church. 

4) *Massalianism or Messalianism*.  I've seen references to a medieval
Massalianism movement that was libertine and became associated with
Bogomilism, perhaps in Bosnia.  This might have been a more earthy group
that might have produced the VMs. 

    However, in *'Working the Earth of the Heart': The Messalian
Controversy in History, Texts, and Language to AD 431*, Columba Stewart
says: "The picture is complicated by the fact that the term 'Messalian'
became a pejorative epithet applied to any group of ascetics or monks who
seemed to have a less than hearty enthusiasm for manual labour or the
sacramental ordinances of the Church, or who placed an emphasis on
'experiential' aspects of prayer.  Thus the fourteenth-century Hesychasts
were accused of 'Messalianism', which by that time had become a generic
term applied to persons or groups suspected of dualism.  " 

    Other books say that Massalianism and Messalianism were the same.  If
this is all true, Massalian was simply a meaningless label. 


    If my reasoning is correct, we can eliminate:

    Catharism
    Bogomilism
    Courtly Love
    The Bosnian Church
    Massalianism

    D'Imperio eliminated Roger Bacon by saying that she didn't think that
a person with his personality would have written the VMs.  Perhaps we can
narrow the field like I've suggested. 

Dennis



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Feb  7 23:50 EST 1997
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Subject: Tonal transliteration
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Just what everybody needs - Another way to look at the 
Manuscript! This transliteration of the Voynich.now file into a tonal 
(or a 4-pitch vowel) system with each vowel having 4 tones will at the 
very least give you something different to consider.

	Yes, some characters didn't translit in accordance with my 
general rules for tone creation so were left as capital letters - namely 
a few spare I's that I would prefer to be C's. The numbers representing 
2nd/3rd & 4th tone follow the vowel they affect. You might also note a 
couple of % signs - these may have to form a rare fifth tone. (All this 
assumes that the tones make sense!) Enough said, Have fun!

		John Grove.

P.S. It's called fifth.txt because it's the fifth alphabet I've tried 
since christmas.
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i4nage2mo goi2nafa nama nainaga3 fu2fa fu2mago yifomagomo go i2foma fu2fakogo-
mofomago yi2nama fo ma go i2naga2 uinaga3 nu2ma nama* yinama yinama konaga-
mogonama3 u3i2go foma goi2naga3 fu2ko yifonamago yi*ma konamanaga3 mogo-
[fokomo*]foga3 foigo3 foifo2ma mofofafoigo yi*nama konaga3 foi2naga3 fofa foi2naga
monama2 go ne3ma yinaga3 yi3nama yi4naga
gokonamanaIfu2
* fokonama *go fu2fa yi3fogo fogokonama u* mo yi4fonaga3 fu2konamogo-
*gu2 fe2kogo foi2fe2go foife2fa fe2yigo fomo ge2 konaga2 fu2ma i2fomo-
konaga3 fu2mo yi4fofa fu2kogo
konaga2 *foifo2kogo
* gokonaga2 yi3mo2naga3 fofa mo yi3go2 goinaga2 fu2gu2 yi3fokonafa mo2-
foi2fu2 i2fu2go foinaga4 foifo2fa foi2naga fu2konaga2 moyi2go konaga3-
fu2go yi2go2 i2fokonaga3 yi3go yi3fokonafa3mo yigo2 fu2 fofakonaga2 ko-
konaga2 foga3 fe2fa fokonaga3 fe2konaga2 ke2go foi2naga2 ko*ga yigo i2foko-
konaga3 uyi2go2 yi2foma fe2ma gu3 i2fofa fe2fa fe2fa i2foma fe2fa-
fu2 fe2fa u fokonaga i2gu2 i2ge2 kofoma fe2konaga3 fu2 i2no3ba-
gofe2 ige3 e3i2naga2 fu3i3fu2fa koma4kogoko yigo konayigo-
goifo fu2fa u2 i2fokogu3 yi3no2fago konamanaga2 konaga2 yi2go,,-
kone2ma uyinaga3 foi2nama3 ge3 *ge2 i3foifofa yifofamo konakooifo-
fu2i2 fe2ma ge3 konaga2 yi2fogo
foifofa konaga4
yi3fo nu2ga3 fu2i2ge4 fe2fa ifu2komo3go gu3 i3gokogo3 ge2 mafo ko*-
*kofoga2 fe2fa konaga2 yinafa konama nu3ma i2naga3 konama gu3 yinama-
fe2 *fo i2naga3 fu2naga3 foi2fofa konaga3 i4nama yifofa konaga3 yifofakonama-
goge4 foi2nago foi2go konaga3 foi2ge3 i2 foi2naga3 **fe2fa i2**ge2 konafa-
ko*o2fo fu2kogo i2fogu3 yigo foi2 ge3 i2go3 konafa eifoma-
*fo* fe2fa fe2i2 fe2igo fe2igo2
kone2ga

i2me2go ne2konaga3 fofa fofaige3 ne2ma yi4nama naka 
goi(no3go) ne2ma fomafoge2  kofe2,fai2fokogo foi2fokonama fe2kogo
ko[nafo],yi2go yi2fo,yi2go gu2  koi2gu4 yigo i2foife2kogo konafa
kofofa fe2i2fo2 konama2 konaba  mofoge3 fe2i2fokogo

i3foifogo fu2fa konama2 yi3fonafa  konama ge3 ifokogo foifonaga3 fu2gu2
fe2i2go fe2fa yifofafu2fa foi2nafa  kofofage3 fe2kofo fafofa ge2 yigo
yefo fofafe2[IC]mo2 fe3fa kofofa yigo2  goi2fofa kofofa kofofafo goi2fofa kofofa[eIC*]fokogo
[fona]i2fofafu2fa i2fofai2oe[gona] fe2fai2go  fe2fa yifofa,fe2kogo fe2fa,konaga3
fu2ma foi2fofa fe2fa kofofa,i2go konama fu2fa kofe2ma foife2 konama fu2kogo
inafoma fe2ige3 konafa fe2kogo mofe2kogo i3fofa fe2konama


i2gokonaga2go goi3fe2fa konaga3 foine2fa goi3ne2ga3 yi2fofamogo-
kofomafe2mago ei2nama mo fu2ma yigo ***-
yefoinaga3 yigo2 go fe2ma ge2 gokogo ne2ga3-
*naIIkogo eifoko kogo yi3go konafa mo fe2i2naga3 ko-
foifofe2ma nafa fu2konaga3 fe2fa ne2ga goine2ga3 konaga-
monaga3 konaga2ko ko i2fofa mofoma goifofakogo kofe2fa koge2 yigo-
fu2ma yi2go konaga3go fe2fa konaga
i2gokonaga2 nu2ga3 yefogo mo fu2fa i4fokonaga goiu fofagu4 konafa3kogo-
kofamofu2 i2fofa gu4 yefoi2go2 goi2fokogo mofo fe2fa goi2go konaga2 konama3kofa-
yefoi2go fe2fanaga3 fu2fa u3i2go konaga3 yigo2 i2fo2fa monaga3 monaga3-
gone2ga2 konafa ge2 konafafoma nu2ga **monaga3 gu4 yi2foma-
foi2fofa ge2 fe2ma yifoma gofoma naga ne2ga monaga3 e2igo ge2i2go monafa-
fu2 goi2go3 ge3 konaga3 eyigo

i2[fona]foga3 fe3i3fe2ma foinaga3fokonaga2 fe2ma konama2 uigo
i2e[fona]i2ge2 fu2 fu2fa yefoife2 fafomo4 yefoigo  fe2ma konaga3  
foige2 fe2ma fagu2 fe2fa fe2kogo fe2konaga2  eyigo konaga3 
fu2 fe2fafo fe3ma fe2konaga

i2fe2ma gu2 konaga4 eyi2go  mogu3 kofoma,fe2fa,konaga3
kofoma fe2fa fe2ma fe2fa i2fo2fa ge2 eigo  konaga3 foife2ma ne2ga
konaga3 fe2ige3 yefoi(na3)go fe2i2[na]fomo me4 ema ne3ga3
fe2i2foIu2 fe2ma eIfofa fe2fa kofofafokogo

ifu3mo yefoi3nafa fe2fa yifofa konaba2bo
gofe3ma fe2ma konaba yefoine2bo ne2ba
fone2ma yenafe3ma fe2fa konaga3 yigo
moge3 fe2ma ne2fa ne2[baka] ne2ka fe2
yefoi2fofa fe2fafofago mo ne2ba yifofa
goeinaga3 fe2ma yifoba foifofakonaba
foife2fa,yefokonaga3 fe2ba fu2ba konabafo
gofu3ma fe2ma fe2fa foi2go konabofo
fu2 nafoma fu3fakonaka foife2kogo fofa
gokonamo fe2fayifoba 

i3fe3fa fu2fa mofofamo fu3fa gu3
foi2nakonaga3 yefoi2fe2ma yefomofe2konaba foyigo
yefoi2go3 yefoi,gu3,yefoi2fokogo yefoi2gu3 fe3kogo
fe2ma yefokonama2 foi2go3 yefoi2go3
ifu3namafoba fu2ma foma fe2ma fofame2go fe2ba foife2ba foi3fomanama
foifo2fa fe2fa,mo fe3fa oi2gu yefoi2fo2ba yefoi2fofa konaga3  mofofabo3
mofofo2ba foi2fo2ba goifo2kogo yefoi2fo3konafa monaba

i3fe3fakofoba fu2konaga3 yefoi3fe2ma yefoi3fofa,foi3fe2fa,yefoigo foifofafoba
foife2ma fofafe3ma yefofo2ma konama2 yefoifo2fa yefomonaga3  fe2ma,yigo
gofe3ma fe2fa fokonaga3 fe2fa,mo,naga3 foi2fofa,foma,naba

i2fonaga3 yi3[fona]ma yefoifo[gona] nu2 yi2fofa goi2fonaga3,mo,fofago
konaIIko[gona] yefoife2fa foi2(fe2)ma foi2foma fofagoifofa kofofa,konama
foi2foba fe2fa fu2fa momo4 fe2ba ge4i2naba fonaI*
yema4konama me2 go3 i2fe3fa foi2nafa kofo,ma ne3mao2ga
gone3ma foine2fa fe2ma ne2ma yi2[nago*]
fomo fe3ma i2nama fe2konafago fe2ba

ife2ma foine2ba fe2ma,[yi3yi4]naba e    
goi2ge2 i2fe2ba fe2ma ei2fofa foi2na
goine4ma foi2fo2fa yifokofonafago fe2ma yigo
fone2[moma] konaga3 yefoi2fu2fa konaba3 fe2fa foi2namago
fu2 fu2yi2fo yi2go ife2ma fe2konaga3 fe2ba
fou fe2konama2 goige2 ife2ma i2ne2ba mo
nu2ma ui2naga3 yema4i2ge2 goigo yinafa ei2go
konaga2 nu3ba goi2no2ba

i2fokonafage2 ei2nakogo fu3fa fofa,gu4 yefoigo2  kofoga3 fe2ma goifogo
kofe2ma fu2fa fu2fa,yifofa uige2,ne2ga3 namo  fe2managa3 fe2ba
foife2fa,fe2fa ge2 ne2ga3 yefoinaga3 konaga3 nu2ga2
yefoife2fa,gena goigo,konaga3 [ye*]foi2naga3 yigo

i3gokonaga3 yefoige2 *i[gona]kogo
fe2ma gu2ige2 kogo[*i](ne2)go
yefoi[fona]ga3 yifofa konaga3 yifoba
fu2ma fu2fa fu2fa yigo yi3fofakogo
konaga3 yi2foge2 ige2 i2fomanaga3
fokonafa fu2ma gu2fu2fa yi3naga3
yefoife2ga3 u2[nafo]ma yefoigo
mofoga3 ne2ga3 ne2ga3
konaga3 yigo2

i3fe2foga3 i2fu3 i2fe2go fe2i3ge2 kofofakomo kofafoko-
fofa ge3 ge2 yigo ei2fe2ma fu3 fe3mago fe2fakogo-
fe2 fu2 ne2ga3 nu2ga3 konaga3 yefokonaga3 fo nama naba-
yefoi2ge2 yefoyigo fe2ifo2fa konaga3 yigo2 fe2naga3-
fu2ma gu4 ** foifoga3 gu3 yefoife2ga3 fe2konaga2-
goife2go fu2i2ge2 yi3fokogo
ifomage2 fu4ma fe2ma fe2i2ge2 i3kogo-
fofanaga2 fe2ma yifofa fu2 foifoma yifomago-
yefofoi2foga4 fe3ko eyigo fu2i2go konaga3-
foinaga3 fu3 foi2fo2kogo fe2fa fe2i2fo2kogo-
fu2i2fe3ma fu2fogo uinaga3 yefoifofa konaga3-
yefoi2fogo fu2 foi2fo2fa mo i2go3 nu2ma ne2ma fokogo-
fu2kogo mo fe3ma fe2i2fokogo fu2konaga3 yefoigo-
fofe2kogo ge2i2go2 eifokogo

i2fe2kogo i4fe2go ei2fogo fonaga3 fonama fofamogo fe2kogo koi2ge2 kogo-
foge3 foi2go2 yefoi2naga3 fu2 yi2fogo yigo2 ge3 foi2na*fomo foifofa-
yefonaga3 foinaga ge2 konaga3 foi?o fe2yigo foige2 yefoife2kogo-
foinaga2 fe3kogo ne2ga mo fe3ma fe2yigo
igo3 fu2kogo yefonaga3 fe2fafofamo fu2 yefoife3 konaga3 fu2konaga3-
fu2 fe3ma ge3 yefogo4 yefogoi2go4 yefofo2ma yigo fu2igu2 kogo-
yefoifogo3 i2go3 fe3i2ge2 fu2kogo

i2fofe3ma fe2ma goige3 i3fu2ko fe2famo fe2konaga3 goifoga4 konaga3-
kofe2fa ** fe2fa foinaga3 konaga2 yifoma fe2i* gofe2i3fomakobo-
yefoife2 goifoma konaga3 konaga3 foife2ma konaga3 yefo* konamafe2ma koko-
yefoifoma mu4 foifofa goi2foga3 fu2fa konaga3 yifoma foi2ge2i2naga3-
fu2i2fo3fa fe2ma fe3ifofa foife2fa konaga3 konafa fe2fa fe2inaga3-
foifofa fe2fa konama2fokobo

i3fonama go fu2fa fe2fafoma yi3fofa fe2ma eyi2 fe2i3fe2fa foino3ba-
konaga3 eyi2go fe2ma fe2ma i2nama yigo yifoma fe2ifofamo-
i4fono3ma i2fu2ma fe2i2go fomo fe3mo4 goi2fo2ma goinaga3 konaba-
konama fe2mo fu3ma fe2*go foine2ba gonama3 ge2-
ifoma foi2foga3 mu4 goinafago yinaga3 fokonaba-
foma nafa konaga3 yi2naba foi2naba yinaga3 gokonaga3-
gofe2fa yi2foma i3ne2ma fu3 yi2naga3-
konama fu3fa moi2naIIfokonama foinaga3 fe2mago-
ife2ma yifo2ko ge2 fu2ma foko u2 foko-
gone2ma fofane2ba fofa fe2i2naga3-
foma fu2fa yifoba fe2ma yigo-
yefoyifofa yefokonaga3 yigo-
fofu2 inaga3 go i2naba3

 i2fonamagomonama(foe4)i2nama yefonako fu2ma ne2i3ge2 mo ne3ma ne2ma foige2-
 fomo3 fe2ma eyi2go yefoi2ne2mo ne3mo fokonaga4 i2ge3 fe2ma,ne2ga3-
 yefooma2 yi2go fe2fa **fo2yi2go e2i2fe2go yi2go foi2fofa  magofe2mo-
 gouyi2go goi2fe2go mo ma4mo go [koka]nakago koge2 kogo2 foi2fokogo  goifokogo-
 konaga2 ** fe2konaba konaba foi2foma foigo  kofofakofoba

 ife2kogo fu2yifofa fe2yigo2 mo-
 gofe2mo gofe2fa konaga3 yifofa kofofa-
 gofe2ma fe2ma,foi2ge3 yefoi2fo[babo]-
 fofo3konafa fe2ma yifoba mo-
yefoi2fe2ko,ne3ma i2ke2go-
fafoma[ne2/fe2]ma foinaba yifo,bakogo-
goife2mo gu2 yefoi2naba yigo-
gofokonaga3 yigo mo fe2[mamo] fomo3 foma-
yefoi2foma fe2fa yifofa i[ne2/fe2]fafokogo-
fe2yi2go mo foma ge2 monaga2 foma-
foge2 yinama yi[fo/na]ma yigo-
go ne2(ma3) yi2nafa yifokonaba ko[go/na]-
goife2yifofa me3 yifoma-
fofe2fagoi2fe2mo ge2,kofoma-
kofe2ma fe2fakonama foi2fofa,konaga3-
gofe3ma fe2ma foyinaba

i4fe2konaga3 fu2i3ge3 yei2fo gu3 yefofomo gu4 ne2mafoge2-
koge4 i2fo2 ma fu2ma kofofako koge3 i2ge3 foige2 fe3kogo-
fomo% fe3konaga3 gu4 goige4 yefoige2 ne2fako-
yefoi2fe2 fe2 fafoge3 konaga3 goge3 i2fe2mo fokonaga3-
fonama3 foinaga3
i2fu2fafoge3 yefoifomo3 ei2fofakogo foife2ma fe2naga3-
kofu2go yifofa fe2fa foife2fa konaga2 fu2kogo fu2fa fe2ige2-
foi2ge3 komo%o fe2igo yefoige2 fe2fa i2go3 fe2i2go ne2ga2-
yefoi2oge2 fofa fe2ga3 fe2fa yi3go2 uyi2go fe2ge2 i2fe2ko-
mo ne2ga2 fe2ma konaga3 eyi2go

i3fofagogu2 gu3 ife2kogo yefoi3ge2 foifu2fa kogo konaga3 ifu2kofokogo-
fe2ge2 yigo konaga3 yefoi2go *e*go konaga3 yifofa yigo yiko-
yefoi2ge2 kogoi2ge2 ei2go3 i2gu2 i2go igo kofoma ge4 fofa fe3fa kogo-
fe2i*o3* fone2ga fe2moge2 konaga2 fu2 i2gu2 fu2fa komo4 kofofa-
kone2konaga3 yefoige2 ge4 ige4

i2fe2ma fu3ko u*fokonaga3 fu2konaga3 foi2fu2fafu2fa konama2 yefomo-
foi2fu2konaga2 fe2ma fe3ma fokonaga3 fu2ie* konafa kofofa kofoma naga3-
yefoifo4 ma fe2 fe4kogo yefoige3 igo2 foi2fe2ma konaga3-
fu2i2fo3 konaga3 fe2i2ge2 kofoma kofo2fa kogo kofofa konaga3

i3fu2fa fe2ma foifu2fa fe2i3ga2 yi3fofa fe2koga2 gu2 yi4fokonama fu2ma-
ieigo u i2ne3famo fu2 foi2e3 kofo koge2 konaga2 nafa-
fe2konama gu2 mogo fe2konaga3 fu2i2ge2 fe2ma kogo-
yefoifoma fe2ma fe2ma gu4 kofe2fa mu3ko2 fe2i4 ge2 konaba-
foi2ge3 kofo ma ego4 kogo i2go mofe2 ei2go *fofonaga3 ne2inaga3-
ifou *ge4 i2fofa ifofakogo gu2 fe2oigo fe4kogo mofofa-
fe2ifo i2fe2ga3 fe2foma konaga2
fofe2 konaga2
ife2oi3 fu2 i3ge4 i3ge3 foi4ge3 kogu4 fu2fa konaga3 fu2ma-
konaga3 ge4 ifo3konaga kogo fe3yigo foi2fu3 kofofa konama2bo-
fu2fa fe3konaga3 konaga3 kofo goife2kogo fe2i fe2igo foinamaga3-
yefofe2konaga3 fu2ifoi2fokogo fe2ifofa
foi2foi2fe2kobo
*fo *go2 fu2fa fe2i4gokogo fu2 ge3 i2gu3 fafokogo fe2fanafa-
koge3 yi2fofa fe2fa ge3 i2me2 ge2 *konaga3 kofofa konaga4ge2 yi2go-
goge3 i2fe2i2ge2 me2go2 i2ge2 mo ne3ga3 yinaIne2ma yigo konama-
fe2fa kogo2 yefoi2nama efa naga3 ne3ga *go ne2ma ne2ga3-
foi2nama yi3naga3 ne2ga3 *fa konaga3 fe2ma e mane3fa ne2ba-
monama2 ne3ga2 yi3fofa konama fu2fa i2naga3 fu2fa konaIi2naba-
foma fe2i2mo2go2 gu3 foi2nafa ne2fa
mofe2fa monaba2

*foko mofofo* mofofa fu2fa foifofa fe2fa foi3ne3ga3 foi3gokonaga3 monaga3-
uyifofa monama fe2ma fu2naga3 fu2ma ge2i2ge2 foinaga3 oigo-
yefokogo ne3fa mogo fe2ma ne3ma fu2fa ne2ga3 nu2ga3 kofofanama-
*fu2fa fu2fa kofofa ne3ga yinama gu3 konaga3 ne2mago-
fe2fa fe2fa konama foine2ma foinaga3 yifofa konama-
konaga3 yinaga goige2 ge3i2naga3 konaga2 nama-
fu2 i2fe2fa konama gu3 yinama fe2inaga2 mago-
foi2fe2fai2u fe2fa fe2fa fe2fa yinaga3 konaga2-
fu2fa fomaefa fe2i2ge2 fe2fa yifoma ne2ga3-
mone2mage2 fomo3fokogo i2ge3 i3ge2 yi3namafoba-
mofomanaga2
i3ne2ma fe2 mafofa konafa nu3ma efe2inaga3 ne2fa konaga3-
i2fe2ma foife2ma foi2go fe2i2naga2 i2fo2i2go foifomage2 mogoinama-
fu2ma foi2fofa fafoi2foga3 fu2fa i2fofa ne2ma yigo2 ige2 yi2naba-
foma fe2fa ne2ga e*go fe2ma ne3ga2 ne2ma e2*go fe2ma mago-
fe2ma fe3ma ne3ma foigo3 kofe2ma fe2kogo2 fe2 managa3-
konaga2 ne3ma konaga3

igokofafo fe2fago yifoma fomage3 mo gu2 fokonaga3 monamago fu2ma yigo-
fogoi2go3 fe2fa goinaga3 foi2fe2kogo ifofo2i2go foi2foga3 kogo foma fe2ga3-
ifoga3 yi3go yefoifoko foinaga3 yigo foi2foma ge3 yifoko mafoko-
fogu2 fe2i2fe2 eifoko fu2ma fu2ga3 foinama kofoma goifofa konagoigo-
konaga3 fe2ma mofoma yigo fe2i2foga3 fu2fa kofu2fakogo foife2fa foi kogo
i3fu2naga2 yifonaga3 foi2nama3 *fokofo manafa nu2ma mogo gu2konafa ke2go-
foma fe2fa ge2ige2 ife2fa goifoma yefoifofa ge2i2go fe2konama naga3-
yefoige2 yefoi2ge2 yigo2 i2fomanaga3 foi2naga2 ko konafa mo efu2yigo-
fofe2yigo fe2*go fe2kogoi2ge2 monaga3 koge2 konaga3
goine2mo fomanaga3 ei2foma

i4fofe2ma foi3fomafokogo foi3go fu2ma konaga3 yefoi3ge2i3fe2 yefoi4fofa fu2fa yi4fofa konaga3-
kofe2ma yefonaga3 ei2naga3 yifoma fe2fa fe2ma yi3fofa kogo foigo yefoi2naga3 kogo-
goi2go2 fe2ma goi2naga3 konaga3 yigo foinaga3 foi2go fomo4 konaga3-
goigo2ige2 i2naga3 yifoma foifofa foigo ifofakogo
i3fe2ma goi3ge4 yefoifoma goi3ge2 fofayi3fofago i2go nama eigo konaga4-
fokofofa fe2go i2fu3kogo fe2kogo konaga2 foige2 yifoko goi2fo-
yefo fe2fa fe2fa *ge2 konaga3 foinafa kofoma konaba2-
mofoga3 konaga3 yefoi2fe2 mafoi2goko konafago-
konaga3 ge2 ifoma ge2igo konamago goifofakogo-
foigo i2fe2fa fe2fa ge2 i2goigo-
gofe2ma efu2igo foi2goi2naga3-
ei2naga3 yi2go fe2ma

i3fe2yigo fu2ma foyifokogo fe2mage2 i3fe2kofofa fe2i3fe2fa goi3ei2foba-
koge3 yifofoma ne2ma eigo foone2ma2 foigoife2fa foi2go konaga3 oigoko-
yefoifoma foige2 konaga3 fe2yigo yefoige2 fe2fa foma goigo kogo kogo-
mofoma ne2ga3 eyigo yifoyi2go foma naga3 eife2ma kofoma3 fokogo-
yefoi2ge2 yefoife2fa fe2fa yigo
gofe3ma yigo fe2ma yinaga3 yefoyifofago kogo ge2 inaga3 gu2-
koge2 yefoi2fe2fa goi2ne2ga3 goi2go konaga3 yi konaga2 konama2 naba-
yefoife2ma fe2ma foifofa fe2fa fe2fafoma fe2fa konaga3 konama-
fogoi2fe2ma fu2ma fe2ma ge2 i2naga4 kogo fe2konaga3-
foyefoifoma foifoma yi3go yifoma fomonaga2 goifoga3-
mafoife2fu2ma yefoigo yefoifoma yigoko foinama-
mafokonaga3 konaga3 yefoige2 yefoifoma

i3naga3 konaga3 fu3 i3ge4 yefoigo konaga3 yifoma foigokogo monaga2-
konaga2 konaga3 yi2go eifoma fe2ga3 yefoi fe2konaga3 yigo konaga3-
kofu2 goigo2 i2fe2fa fofa igo fe2fa kogo
yefoige2ifoma fu2ga3 konaga3 yefoige3 uyigo2 goifoma konaga2-
fu2 goi2go3 konaga3 yefoige2 yefoifoma fe2fa konaga3 yefoi2ge2i2go-
fu2ga3 fe2ma uyigo yefoigo yefoifoga3 yefoifofa fe2managa3-
yefoi2fofa ge2i2go fe2fa e2i2go konaga3 konaga2 eyi2naga

ifu2fa mofe2nafa i4go uyi4gokonaga3 yi3go gu3 i2 fe2kogo fu2goigo-
mofoyifokogo yefokofoma go i2gu2 konaga3 goige2 goife2i2go i2fe2fa konaga3-
yefoigo fe2fa yigo kofoma goi2goge2 fe2igo konaga2 ne2ga3 konaga3 kofoko-
kofe2fa ge2 i2ge2 kogo konaga3
ife2fa fu2ma fu2ma koi2go **go konaga3 yigo kogo fe2kofa konaga3-
fokofa ko mo go foifofa ne2ga3 goi2fe2ma konama2 fe2kogo yigo mo konaga3-
yefoige2 foi2fe2fa yigo kogo

i3fofakofe2kogo uyi3go fu2makogo yefoigo fu2fa yi3nama konaga go-
fu2fa kogo eyi2go uyigo konaga3 konaba goi2ge2 konaga2 koge2-
foife2ma kogo i2ge2 ige2 konama yefoi2ke2 foi2go fe2fa kogo kogo-
yefoi2fe2ma fe2fafofanama ge2i2go koge2 yefoi2go yifo ige3 i*-
fafogokogo yefoigo3 yefoi fe2ma kogo kokogo yifoma gu2namabo-
gofe3ma i2fu2 kofoma yifogo mo fe2fako

ifomafu2ma foi3ge2 fu2fa kogo yefoi3ge2 fu2fa foi3fe2ma kogoi3ge2 kobe2-
kofe2fa fe2fa kofofa ui2ge2 gokonafa gu2 goi2ge2 yefoi*go konaga3 mo go-
mo go kofe2ma nu2ga3 fomo4 goi2foma fe2ma goigu2 goi2ge2 i2ge2 konama-
yefokoge2 goige2 foife2ma
fu2mafokofo gu2 igu2 i2fe2fa koi3ge2 yefoi3ge2 foife2fa yi4fofa kogo-
ife2ma kofoma konaga3 yefoife2fa foi2ge2 foi2fe2ma foga3 eyi2go ko-
koge2 yefoi2go fe2fa kogo yefo**go ko fofakogo foi2fe2ma kofonaga3-
fu2ge2 yefoi2ge2 ifomage2 i2** mo foi2ge3 konaga3-
fofakogo gu3 fe2fa kofoga3 goi2fofago foi2ne2fa konafakogo-
mofoige2 i2ge2 foi2fomafomago

i2fonaImo eifoga3 foige2 i2fe2ko foifofa foige2 foyifomo-
foi2fo yefoi2fofa fe2konafa foife2fa yi3fofa fe2igo-
yefoi2ge2 yefoi2foko ge2 foige2 yifokogo-
fo fa mo ge3 foi2fomo fonaga2 foi2gu2 yefo*-
yefoi2go konaga3
i4fofakonaga3 fofayi3go fe2fa kogo foigo fu2ma yefoigoko konama2foko-
konaga2 foi2nafa ge2 yefoi2fe2mago koge2 i2foi2gokonaga3 fu2ga-
foige2 konaga3 go konaga2 goi2fofa foi2ge2 foi2nafako ko goinaga3-
ieifoko foinafa yifoma goinafa go fe2 inafa fu2 yefoyigo-
go fofa ge2 i2ge3 i2fe2ma konafa

i3fe2konaga3 fe2i3fofa fu2ga3 konaga3 konaga2-
ga4goi2go3 mofoga4 fe2i2 yefoi2ge2 kona foi2fofa-
gokonaga3 fofa ge2 i2fe2ma konaga3 fofafofa-
foei2fe2ma i2fofa gu2 konaga3 kofomafokogo-
yefoi2fe2fa konama konafafo yefoifofafo-
gofe2fa foma2 foi2foma fe2foma foyi2go-
foife2 konaga2 eyi2go
mofogu2 *fe2fa fu2ma fe3ma goi2naga3 mo-
mofokogo fe2kogo foife2kogo yefoige2 i2foga3 mogo fu2 igo kogo-
yefoife2ma fe2ko fu2igo fe2kogo kofofa kogo kogo foi2ke3go-
kofe2i2ge2 mofe2fa kogo gu3 konama yefoigo goi2go3i2go-
fo*o4 ge3 i2fo2ma ge3 ige2i2go fe2konafabo-
mofokonaga3 ge2 i2ge2 i2ge2 goi2fo2kogo

i3kogofe2ga3 goi4fokonaga2 foigo ge2 kogo goi3fe2ma konaga3 i2fofa gokonaga2-
foi2fe2ma ko ge2 igu2 foigo ge2 yigo foige2 igo fe2fa konaga3-
goge2 kogo konaga3 eyigo goi2gonaga3 kogoige2 goi2ge2 i2gokogo-
goigoge2 i2fu2 goi2gu2 fu2i2fu2ma goigo konamafokogo kogo foigokomo-
foi2gu2 konaga3 foi2fe2ma ei2go yefoige2 konaga3 yifoma foigo-
yefoigo fe2i2go yigo fe2i2ge2 kogo kogo kogo eyi2go koge2ko ga-
fogoi2gu2 fe2i2go kogo kogo fokogoko foige2 fo i2ge2 kogu2 konamakogo-
fe2i2fu2ma konaga3 foi2gu2kogo konaga3 kofofa konama2 konaba-
kogoi2ge2 yifofakobo koeyi2go

ifu2ma gu3 ine2fago gu2 eifofamo gu3 konaga3-
foife2ma yefoi2fe2ma fofago foi2foma gu2 i2fofago-
yefoi2naga3 yefoige2igokogo konaga3 fe2fa yigo-
mone3ga3 fe2konaga3 efa mofofa yi2naga3 monafa-
yefoige2 ma fu2ma yigo konaga3 yigo kogo-
foge2 i2foi2naga3 ke2go monaga3 foi2no2ma-
konaga3 ui2naga3 yigo fu2 i2fo2yigo-
fe2yigo ifofa i2naga3 mo konaga2 yifofago-
foyinaga2 yefoi2naga3 fe2mo fokonaga3 yifa mo go-
gone2ga2 e**go foi2mo2go monaga4 kofofa ke2mo-
yefoifoma fu2ma ife3ma ge2 yinaga3 nu2ga-
goi2fu2fa kofoma gu4 *go konaga2 moi2go fu2ma fu2igo-
foife2 i2ge2 fe2fa konaga3 *nama goifofa kofoma kofoba-
yefoife2ma ne2ga3 ge2 i2fofa konai2go

i3fomafoma fomagu2 fe2ga3 koine2ga foi3fe2makogo-
*fe2ma foma fomafo ma naga3 yigo *naga2 konama-
yifoma konaga3 yefoi2foma foi2fo2ma foi2naga3-
kofoga3 fe2i2go fu2fa yefoi2go yefoife2ko-
foife2ma fe2ma fe2ma goife2ma yigo mo-
yefoige3 fe2igo i2naga3 foige2 ma naga3-
fo2go fe2ga3 fu2 * ge2 mo ge2 ifoma fofama-
goife2ma fe2ma fofa foga3 foigo fu2fa konaga3-
foife2fa foyifofa fe2fa fe2fa fe2kogo i2naga-
mofoma fe2ma yifoga3 yigo yefoi2naga3-
mofofafoga3 fe3ma fe2fa konaga3 yigo-
konaga3 yifoma fe2fa fe2ma

i3fofe3kogo yefoi3ge3 mogoi2naga3 foi3ge2kofoma goge2 konaga3 kogo fe2ma fomafoba-
goge2i2ge2 foifago i2fofa fu2ma fokogo foifokogo yefogo fomo3fomakogo-
gokofoma nu3fa foi2ge2 yefogo i2foga3 fe2i2go goi2nama2
konaga2foko gone3fafoko
ife2ma fe2ma efa goi2e fe2yigo foi3ge2 igo igo-
fonu2ga3 kogoi2go fomo4 kofo4ko naga3 ko ifonaga3-
konaga3 konafage2 kogo i2go mo ge2 mo naga3 kofonafa yefoi2go-
fu2ige2 gokonaga2 goi2go fu2kogo foifofa konaga3-
monaga3 goinaga3
ifomafoma konafago konafa foi3ge2 i4fe2fa goi3fe2* foi2nafa-
mofoi2ge2 yefoi2fofa fe2igo foi2ge2 yigo ge2 i2ge2-
kogo fe2i2ge2 uyigo uigu2 fu2 ife2i2goko-
yefoi2*foma kofa kogo gu3

i3emafoga3 foife2ma ei3fe2fa ei3ge3 mo i3fe2*go-
goife2ma go i2go fe2i2ge2 yefoi2fe2yifoma fu2mago-
goi2ge2 kogo fe2go yefoigo ge2i2ge2 i2fou2i-
kofe2fa eifokogo yi3foko fe2ifofa konafa-
goige2 ge2igo fe2ma fe2fa goi2ge2 konaga-
mofoma ei2nama foigo ei2nama fe2fa konama2ga2
i3fe2yi ge2i3ge2 yefoige2 e*go mogo-
konaga3 fe2fa go konaga3 eyigo yefoi ne2ma fe2ma fu2fafo-
kogu2 foi2naga3 foi2naga3 fe2fa fe2ma yifoma igo fe2kogo-
yefoi2ge2 ge2 kogo goi2ge2 eyi2go foinaga2 yifoma *go-
foi2goinaga3 ei2ge2 monaga3-
konaga3 goi2go foifoma fe2kogo-
mofoi2nama fonafomafoma

i4fu2kogo konamanaba gokonama fe2ba foi3gokogo goi3foko foige2 kofokogo fofakoyi2go-
fokonama2 fe2i2go foi2gu2 yefokonama yi2fokogo kofoma foife2fa yefokoyigo fokomo-
fe2fa foma ge2 yefokonaba foi2foma fe2ma foi2fe2ba
ife2ba fu2fa yefoi2fofa yefoma fofanaga3 foigokoko mofoba goi3ge2 goi3naba2-
goe2i2ge2 yigo fe2ma fu2ma yi3foma yi3nafakogo konama2 foinago yefokogo-
ifu2 yefoi4 fe2 yefoi2fe3ma fe2ifo*
i2fu3 yefoi2ge2 fe2fakogu2 bai3ge2 ko* foi3fe2makogo-
koege2 kogone3ma mone2ma goi2ge2-
moma4go eyi2go fo konamo ge2i3ne2ba-
konama ne3ma kofe3ma *naga2 go kofofa-
foife2fa yinama foi2naga3 fe2fa kofoga4-
gofe2kogo fe2ifoba

i3fe2kofofa fe2ma i3ge2 foi3gokonaga3 fokonafakogo-
goge4 i2fu2ma yifokonafa foi2fofa fokonaga3 foi2nafa-
fofakonaba2 fokonaga3 foi2nafa fofakonaga3 fe2yi2fofa fofafofa-
i2fe2ma i4fe2fa yi3fofa fofafe3fa foi2go3-
gofe2fa fe2fa kofofa ge4 ife2fa konama yi2go-
fooi2foma foma foi2naga3 foma foinaga3ko-
mofoma ei2go2 i3foIImo fe3ma fomo mo naga3-
yefoi2go3 i2fe2ma fofa kogo fe2fakonaga3 mogo-
gofe3fa fu2fai2fe2fa fe2fai2naga3 fofa-
fogoifoma foi2fo2ma foi2foma foi2fofa konama2 goba-
yefoi2fe3 yefoi2foma3 yifo2fa fe2fa-
fogo fe2go i2no2ga3 eyi2go2 fofa fe2ma-
goi2fo2ma fe2fa fe2fa yifofa ei2foma fu3fa-
fofafo ma foi2fo3fa fe2konaga3 foi2fo2fa ife2mago-
gofe2ma yigo e4i2go fe3 foifoma foifo2fa-
foi2fe2fa fe2fa foi2fo2fa yifofa foifo2fafoka-
yefonaga2 *nama u2 kofofa yefoi3ne2ga3 yifoma-
foinama fe4ma fofa fe2fa kofoma ema foma mo4-
konaga2 ge3 yefonaga3 yifoma fe2fa fe2ba-
goi2go3 foi2go3 fe3ma fe2fa fu2 fokonaga3-
fonafa fu3ma fu2fafoma foma u3yigo i3fo2ma konaga3-
yefoi2o4 konama ge3 i2fo3ma fe4fa yifo2go yigo-
ei2go foi2fo2ma fu2ma foi2fo2ba

i3komanama2kogo konamafoko* gofonama goi2fe2fa kofoma foba eyi2go fo*foma kogofa-
foifu2fa yefoi2fe2fa ge2i2ge2 foi2ne2fa konaga3 kogo fe2fa konaga2-
yefoi2fe2ma fe2ma eyi2go foma ge3 yefoi2fe2fa kogo goine2mabo-
fe2ma yifoma foi2fo2ma goi2fe2fa foi2naga2
ife2ma fu2ma yinaga3 yifofa efafofa fe2ba-
goge2i2fe2ma konama2 goifofa eyigo konama konama konafa-
fofu2ma nu2ga3 yigo fu2fakogo kofofakogo kofofanaga3-
yefoi2fe2ma yi2fofa fofafokogo foi2nafa kogo konamago-
fe2fa eyinafa foi2nu2fa ge2i2nafako-
konama fu2ma yefoi2fe2fa fofa gokonaga3-
mofoine2ga3 fe2i2ge2 ei2fofa fe2ma bo-
gone2ma2 yifofa konaga3 yefoi2ge2 yigo-
foma nu2ga3 yifoma yinafa foi2nafa konama
goe2i2ge2 i2ne2ga3

ifofako fu2ma goigu2 foike2nafa kone2fa koge2 goieba-
yefomo4 foma fonaga3 gu2* foi2gu2 yefoi2ge2 yefoi2ge2 mo bo-
fomagu2 yefoi2go yefoi2go ei2ge2 yefoi2gu2 yefoi2naba-
yefoige2 yefoi2nago yefoi2ge2 goi2fe2 gokofa konaga-
gofe2mo3 goi2ge2 yefofa i2ge2 yefoife2fa konama2 foba-
yefoifoma fe2ma foige2 yefoi2mo4 ge2 mo nama goi2nama-
gofe2fa kofoma fe2ko yefoi2fofa konaga3 yefoifofa konama kogo-
ifofafofa u yi3fogo konamafoma kokogo goifoma goi2naba-
foi2fe2ma yefoige2 yefoi2ge2 goifofa kofoi2go kogo-
goi2fo kogou konama2 goi2fofa kofoba

i3fe2ma yefokoge2 yefoigu2 kogo ige2 yefoige2 yefoi2go konaga3 koge2kogo-
kogu2 fe2ma go ige2 fe2fa kogoige2 fe2makogo konaga3 kogo igo * e*-
fomofe3mo gu2 ikonaga3 fe2fa kofoma goi2go-
yefoi2fomanama konaga3 eyi2go gu2 i2fe2ma-
foige2 ige2 yefoi2go konaga3 ma-
gofu2ma gu2 konaga3 foigoige2 konaga3-
ye*i fe2 igo yinama kofoma ne2ga konama-
foma fe2ma konai2go konafa fe2ma kofoma fa gu2-
yefoife2ma kogo kofoma go ige2i2ge2 ku2naga3-
konaga3 yifoma fe2fa goi2fe2ma fe2makogo-
yefoige2 yefofafokogo fe2fakogo yifoko-
goi2fe2ma fe2makonaga3 konaga3fofa-
foma foyifoma go ife2ma

i3fone2ga3 yifoma ei3fe3ma foi3ge3 i3go i2ge2-
yefoi2ge2 i2fe2fa mofoma yefoi2fe2ma goi2ge2 konamafoba-
foige2 fe2fa konaga3 yefoifofa goifofa konaga4-
goie eyigo yefoifofa konaga3 konaga3-
yefoige2 yefoige2 konaga3 kofoigo yefoi-
gofe2ma ne2ga3 yifoma
ifogo ige3 yefo kofe2fa yefoi2me2 kofoba-
gofe2ma foi2go fe2ma goifofa fe2fa foi2go kokofoma-
konaga3 fe2ma konaga3 yefoi2foye go foi2ne2ga-
yefoifofa kofoma foi2fe2ma konaga3 yifoma foinaba-
foie foi2fe2kogu2 konaga3 foma foinaga3 konama2-
gomo3 goi2fe2fa foigo goifoma goinama goife2ma goinaga3
foife2fane3ga3 yifofa

i2kofe2kogo fe2i3go ge4 yefoife2fa yefoifogo3 kofe2ma fe2ga3-
fe2kogo2 yigo2 fe2ifofa fokonaga3 yefoige2 yifokogo fe2koge2-
yefoigo3 fe2 fe2konaga3 fu2 yefoge2 ge3 ife3konafa konamanafa-
fofe2fa fofa igo3 foifofa ge3
i3fe2yigo fe2i2fonaga3 *go *e% foi3ge3 fu2managa3 *-
fe2IImo foi2fe2ma yefoifofa ge4 konaga3 ge2 fe2ga3 konaga3-
fofe2 fafu2ko konama2 fe2ifo2fa fe2fa kofofa fu2fa foinaga3-
mofe2konaga2 fe3 ma fe3kogo
i4fe2komo3 fu2kogo yefoige3 yefoi2ge3 yefoyi3go fe2i2fofakogo-
fofe2naga3 fe2ma fu2kogo i3fe2konaga3 e3ifo2kogo fe2i2go koge2 ifogo-
kofe2ko yefoifo3kogo goige2 yefoigu3 kone2ga3 fe2fafokogo-
fu2ga3 fe3kogo foige3 foige2 ige2 yefoigo3 konaga3 konama-
fone2ga3 fe2ma fe2ma ge4 ige3

i4naIImo nama foi2fogo gu2 i3foi4foge3 foi3ge2 yefoi3go fe2fakogo foi3gokogo yi3go-
mofomo goi2naga3 fe3fa fe2fa fe2ga3 e3yigo foifofa fe2fa fe2konaga3 foigo-
foi2ge2 fu2 i2fe2fa fu2fa eyigo yefoigo ge2 ifofagu2 yefoige2-
fu2 foma naga3 fu2fa konaga3
ifu2fa i4fofafe2fa foifoma fu2fa fu2ma i4fu2koge2 foige2 eyi3go kogo-
kofoga4 fe2yi2go konaga fe3*go fu2mo fe3mo ne2ma yinaga3-
fu2yigo fu2 yigo konaga3 fu3go igo2 mo mofonaga3-
nu2ga2 fe2manafago fu2 nama ge2 konaga3 ko o-
goi2ge2 i2fo2kogo fe2 yigo fe2fa ku2*foigo ko*-
fu2i2naga3 fe2yigo fe2fa konaga3 ge2 fe2ma oigo-
foi2foga3 ge3 *fofa fe2mago


i3fe2ma fofo3yi2go fo i4goge3 goi3ge3 yefoi3fe3kogo foinaga3 ne2ga-
monaga3 eyi3go foi2go nu3ga3 yefoife2fa foifo2mo gu4 yigo konaga3-
yefoigofa gu2 fofa fe3ma ge2 yefoi2ge3 ge3 i2go3 kogo
i3fe2i4goge2 konaga3 yinaga2 foifofafogu4 yefoyigo2 ifofa fe2mago-
foi2go3 konaga3 fe2mogo yefoi2foga3 foifofa fe2fa yefoi fe3fa foi2fo2naga3-
kofe2ma go i2fofago i2go fe2fa ifofa yefoi2fo2fa fe2fa fofa yefoifo3fa konakogo-
fu2fo2ma fe3ma fe2i2fo2kogo fe2yifoma gu2
i4fe2i2gu2 foifoma fu3fa foyi3nafa foyi3nu3mo yifokonaga3 foigo-
foi2naga3 fu2 inu2ga3 ei2naga3 uyigo yifokogo yigo mo-
ifoige2 i2fo2ma ge2 i2go yefoinaga3 yefoife2fa igo yigo3 foinaga3-
fu2fa fe2fa fu2fa ife2fa eyigo foigoi2go gu3 goifo2fa fu2kogo-
goi2go3 fe2ma gu4 gofu3fa fe2ma fe2fa konaga3 ei2naga3

ifofakogu2 fe2i4ge2 yefoi4gu3 uyi2fofa fokonaga3 gu3 yi2fofago-
fomo4fogo yefoi2ge2 fe2kogo bafoige2 yefoi2ge2 fe2igo ife2fa konaga3-
yefoinafa i2mo% fe2ige2 ife2 fe2igo fe2ma yefoifofa konaga3 konafa-
fu2 fe2konaga3 fe2igo fe2fa konaga3 konaga3 eigo eifofa-
gofu2 kogo3 yifo fa fu2 yigo konaga3 konaIi foi2go-
fu2 ifu2 fe2ifu2fa fe2fa ifokonaga3 konaga3-
goi2fe2 fafe2fa fe2fa ne2ga3 foige2 mo nu3ga3-
fe2 fa i2fe2ne2ga3

i3fofa fofagu2 i4fe2fago fu2fa koi3ge2 foigo foi2fofago konaga3 foi3ge2 mo foyi3go-
fofa naga3 fu2fa fo i2foma yefoi2fe2fa konaga3 foi2naga3 yifoma konaga2 yi2go kofoba-
yefoi2fofa kogoi2naga3 foi2ge2 konaga3 yifofa yifofafo konama nu2ga2
i3ne2ga3 foi2ge2 konaga3 yi4go kofomafoga3 goi3fe2fa mogo mofe2ma konaga3-
fofa konaga3 yefoi2ge2 konama konaga3 fe2ma fofakofoma foi2go go fe2fakoge2-
go fe2i2uge2 yinaga
i2fe2fa fu2fa kofu3ma * ke2fofago goinaga3 fofa foige2 yi3nafa-
kofe2ma foigo konaga3 yifofago yefoi2go fe2inaga3 fe2yigo kofo*ga3 kofe2ma-
fokonaga3 konaga2 yigo yifo2ma fo*naga3fo
i2fe2fa fe2ma konaga3 yifoga3 kofe2ma ge3 yefoi2fofa kogo foi3fe2fa fofakonaba-
kofoga3 goyi2fokogo yefoi2ge2 foi2go foifofakogo goigo kofofa foma kofoge2 konaga3-
fokone2ga3 yigo foi2ge2 i2ge2 kofe2fa konaga3 gokonaga3-
kofe2ma kogo konaga2 yefoyi2go goi2fofa foi2naga2

i3fomonaga3foma foi4ne2ma foi2go ige2 foikogo mofoma gu2 ye*ko-
konaga3 goi2naga3 yefoige2 i2ge2 foige2ko kofu2ma goge2-
yefoi2go i2fe2mafa foige2 yigo foige2i2go goife2fa foinaba-
foine2ga3 fu2igo yefoi2go monaga3 fokonaga3 goinaga3-
kofoma goi2fe3ma konaga3
i4fu2ma gu2ife2ma foinaga3-
gofe2ma fe2ma yefoi2fe2fa fe2mago-
yefoige2 yigo yefoi2fofa konaga3 konaba-
foi2fu2ma fu2kogo fe2fa ife2fa foinaga3 konaga3-
yefoi2ge2 konaga3 mo foma goinafa-
mofoi2naga3 foigo kogo-
goi2ge2 konaga3 yigo-
foi2ne2ga2 ei2fofakogo fu2ifofago-
yefoige2 fofaufago fu2fa konaga3-
fu2 yigo fe2yigo yefoi2ge2 kofomago
monaga3ge2 konafakonafafofa

i3gokoke2foba ge2 i4fe2fakogo foigo foife2fa gu2 foi3gonaga3 *goi4ge2 konaga3 fofafofogo konafa-
ifo nama fe2ma konaga3 ei2konaga2 foige2 fafofafe2mo konaga3 konaba foi2fe2fa konaga2 bo-
kone2ma goi2foma go i2naga3 konaga3 yifo bo
yefoi2fofakogo foi2nama3 goi2nafa3 bo yefoi2go3 foi4fe2fa konaga2goi4fe2ma fofai4fe2ma foine2fako-
gofe2ma yefoi2fe2fa goigoba fe2fa konaga2 fe2fa nama fofa fofa kofofa konaga2-
ifu2fa goi2foma yefoi2naga3 goi2go konama foi2fofa koge3 konaIIkonafa konaba goife2 fakonafamo-
foi2nama fofane2ma ne2ga3 yefoi2fe2fa konama yefoi2fe2fa konama2fo ma fofa konaga3 nafabo-
yefoi2gu2 ne2ma konama3 yefoi2naga3 fofafofa yefonaga3 goi2ge2 mo konafa foi2ge2-
foi2fofa foi2 gu2 yefoi2fofakogo konafa kofu2 yefoi2mo4 go fofago konaga3 konafa-
ye*i2 foi2naga3 ei2ge2 mo goino2ga2 fokonafa ne2fakogo konama goi2naga2-
goi2goi2fo konafafomago

i3**ma2fofa fokonaIIIfago fu2 nafa kogo foi3fe2fa foifofa fofa eyi3go yefoine2ma mo-
yefoi*ifoma ge2 foi2ne2fakogo yefoi2ge3 kofofa foife2fa ne2fa foibe2-
gofe2 foi2naga3 foi2fo2fa mo4 fofa konaga3 foi2fo3ma konaga3 yefoife2fako-
foi2ge3 konama2 fu2fafofa fofa konafa foife2ma konama-
kofoma ne3ma fu2ma kofofa fonafakonamago
ifu2fa fu2ma ui2gu2 foi2fofa konaga3 foifu2ma fofamonama-
foifoma foga3 fu2 fu2fa yefoi2fofa konaga3 mofofa konaga3 gofago-
yefoi2naga3 konaga2 yefoi2foma foi2nafa bo konaba fe2ma fofafofa konaba-
foigu2 konafa konama fofakonama nama foma yefoifofa me4 bo-
kofoma ge2 i2fu2fa fe2fa yifofa foifofa fofafoma3-
gofoi2naga3 kofomafoga3 fofafofamo foga3 fofa e4ga fofamo-
fofa naIIfoma fofa fomafo fo4fago

i3foma foma go fe2ma foi3ne2ma u2fe3fa konaga3 foma-
yefoinaga3 no3ma fokonaga3 foi2naI*nafa foi2go-
goyinama yinafa foi2fofa yefoinama yi2go-
foma eyi2nafa yinama fo3ma me4 kogo-
yefokonama fe2 ma ge3 yigo yio i2fo2ba-
fofo4mo yifoma foinafa yefoyifofa yefoi2go-
ye*i2nama einama mo fe3ma yifofa yefokofofa-
fo2ma mo foba yefono2ma konaga3 yefoi2fo2fa-
fokonaga3 yi2naba yefokona**go kofofa konafa-
ye*nama yi4nama fe2ma mo naba fe2inaga3 kogo-
monama fe3mo4 foi2fo2ba fe3ma yefoi2naga2-
yefoi2ge2 yefoige2 ifofa ifoko yi2go-
fomo3 fofa mo e2ga2 eyi monama-
yefoma ge4 yefoko fe2ma yinafa-
foyi2fomo3 fomo4 fofa konafa mo-
nu2ba foi2no2fa konafa konaba konafa-
mogu3 foinaba nu2ba yifoka foi2go-
gofe3fa fe2fa konaga3 fe2fa mo-
gofofa i2fofa fe2fa fu2ba foinayi3go-
monaba fe2mafago

ife2konama fe2yi4go2 foi3foko fu2ko eyi3go foi3fu2kogo foi3fomanaga3 foi2 foi2naba-
goko**mo yi2foma gu2 fe2 kofe2ma foifofa foinama3 foife2mo foi2fe2ba foi2fe2-
**** kome4 fomono2ma no2ma foi2naba eyi-
goko nafa u foi2fofa foi2naga3 fokonaga3 kofafoma-
**ma fomanaga3 ine2ma fomafo
ifofe2fa fu2ma *nama *ma-
gofe3fa konaIko konama fofafoba-
i2foei2go eyigo fu2fa monaga2-
go fe2fa fe2fa foma fe2 foba-
foi2fofo2ma yifo2ko fe2go i2fo2fa-
gokonaga3 fe3ma yefokofoba foi2fokonaga3-
i2fu2 i4fonama *ifo fu2 yefoi2* foi2 foi2ne2fa-
fogo4 fe3fa fe2fa fokofoma fu2 kofo foi fofafokonafa-
kofonama fe4konaba fu2 fu2 kogo-
koge3 i2fe2ko kone2fa foke2go-
foife2fa fokonaba3

i4fe2fakogo mofogu2 konaga3 *ga2 fu2kogo konaga3 fofe2fakogo yi3fofakogo mogo-
foifoma fe2ma me2i2go fe2ige2 nu2ga2 yefoko nu2ge2 i2ge2 ei2naga2-
yefoige2 yefoigu2 me4mo3 nu4ma mo ne2ga2 konaga3 ne2ga2 konaga-
koeyi2go fu2yigo goige3 yifoma mo ne2ga ne2ga3 yefoine2ga2-
yefoine3ga3 kone2ga2 yinaga2 konaga3 konaga3 yinaga2 yefoinaga3-
foi2nafa fe2inaga3
konama2 foinama3 foifomogo

***naga3 yefoi2go gu2 konaga3 yefoi3ge3 foige3 yefoi4fe2ma mofomo-
kofe2ma yifoma fe2ma konaga3 mo foi2no3ga3 konaga3 yi2go2 konaga3-
fomafe2 i2fe2ma fe2fa konaga3 uyi4foma konaga3 kogu3 konaIIigo-
yefoi2naga3 yefoi2fe2 fu2fa konaga3 yi2no2ma yi2fofa konaga3 ei2no2ma-
konama fe2i2go3 kofu2ma kogu3 yefofe2fa kofofa fe2 konaga3 konaga3-
yefoi2fe2 ma foge2 yefoige2 yefoifomanafa fe2 * ne2ga2 kono3ma3 mo-
fo* ei2go2 konaII fofa konaga3 uyi2 fomane2ga3

i3fu3i2go fokonama3 yefogo-foi4fu2ko ge2i3ge3 goi3ke3gonaga2-fe2i4fo-e2i3ke2go-
koge3 monaga3 nakafo3kogo goi2oyigo2 ke3go goiko2go kogo-eyikogo famo-
fonaga3 uyigo yiko2go fofafogo goi2ku2go fofake3go kogofa-gogu4 monaga3 mo-
yefoi2ko2go fe3mo goiko2go yefoi2ko2go goiko2go ei2kogo konaga3 fokonaba monafakogo-
monaga3 ku3go ko3go ko3go moge2 konaga3 yiko2go-yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go yigo2-
make3go yefoi2ko2go
i3fo3 yefoi2ko2go konama fu3 goi3me2ko2mo mo-naga3-nu2i3ke3go i4ge2 konafa ke3go monama-
konaga3 ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoiko3nama mo-foi2fofa goiko2go yefoi2ko3go yega4i2ko2go-
ife3gu2 koku2go foi2ko2go eyi2go mo-kogo-kogo-goi2o2ge2 foi2ko3go e2i2go-
mu3o naga3 fu3mo fe3kogo foinafa-

i3ke3nama yefokonamago konaga4 i3e2oigo monama2 ku3go goi3ke3go goi3ke2go yefoi3go ku2go-
monamanama3 ei2kogo yefoi2ko2go foiko2go monamago oiko2go yefoi2ko2go foma nanu3fagomo
ke3go-
i3ke2nama foi3nama konama fe4fa foi4ke2go foiko2go yi2kogo fokonama ke3go goiko2go foi2ke2go
bo-
goyi2fo2kogo yefoi2ko2go kogo3 monafakogo foi2ko2foma foma fe3mo fomanaga3 foi2fo2 e3i2naga3-
kofe2fa fe3kogo yefoiko3go yefoi2fokogo yefoiko2go yefoiko2go foi3ke3go foi4ge2 me2 nama-
ifoko3go i2fo2kogo ku3go konama ke3go mu4 foma e4i2go konama ge3 e2i2go goiko3go-
i3ke3go konama fe3oige2 monama2 me4 fokonaga4 ei2go4 goi2go2 gu4-
ike3go foi2fo3mo fe4mo gomonaga3 foi2ge4 i2fo2kogo monaga3 fe3mo yefoi2mo2 fomago-
gogu4 foi2ou2 fu2kogo i3ogu2 ifokogo kogo

i2mofoma gu3 fu2ifo2 ei4fomanaga3 gu2 fu2ko ne2mago-
kogo ne2ga2 fu2fa konaga2 konama fu2i2goko-kofe2fa yigo2 komo-
fe2i2 gu2 i2fo2fa fe2fa ge2 fu2fa ge2-konaga3 ge3 konaba-
yefoi2go2 fe2ma ne2ma ge2 koge2 i2go3-fe2mo yifokogo-
kofoma me4 yifo gu2 yi3namago-konaga3 konama2-
ge2 ife2famo fe2ma fe2fa ne2ga3-gu2 i2ne2fa kogo
i2fe2go ge3 i2fe3fa i3fe2 moge3 fago-ne2famo ne2ba-
goige2 ge2 ife2fa kogo ige3 konaga2-fe2fa konafa-
koge3 i2fo3ko fu2ige3 fe2fa foigo-ge2ifofayi-
yefoige3 mu3 mogo ge2 ige3 kogo-
konaga2 fe3i2go3 ge3 yigo2 foinafa-
foife2kogo

fofe2i4 fe2i4 fe2 fu2 fu2fago fu2fa goine2fa2 foi3fe2mago i2fe2ma fe2ma-
koge2 ei2nama foige2 gu2 gu2 koge2 kogu2 i2ge2 fe3 konaIkago koge2-
i2ge3 i2ge2 kofe2i2ge2 kofu2 kone2ma fe2 koge2 oife3kogo ufa ko-
foi2fe2 ge2 i2fe2ko efa fe2fa i2foko-fo foi2fu2 kofo me4 bo-
kofu2 i2emamama foi2ko3go-koemage2 fu2ike2go-
fu2 fu2goi2fe2 ku2go-koke2 me2me2go foike2go-
foi2mu3 foi2fe2 i2gu2

i3fe2konama fu2ko fe2yi3go foi3fe2ma konaga3-foife2fa ge2 yefofa kogo-
foife2ma fofe2ma yifofa yigo yifo2fa kogo-kone2ma ne2i2foko kofago-
yefoine2ga3 fu2ma yifofa yifofa fu2ma-fe2ige2 ife2konama-
foigo eifofa foi fa fe2ige2 yifofa-foifofa fe2i2go yefoigo-
foi2fu2 foifoma ge2 i2fe2mafoma fe2konaga3-fu2 yifokogo foi2fogo-
yefoi2fe2fa yefokonaga3 foife2fage2 konaga3-fe2 yefoi2fofa foi2naba-
fu2 foifoma fu2bogo fu2yigo foifoma kogo-kofu2ma kofofa konama-
fomofe2iufa konaga3 foi2ge3 i2fofa konaga3-fu2fa kofu2 foinaga3-
goife2fa kogo3 goifo2fa kono2ga3

i2fu2fa yefofoyi3 fu2ma i3fu2yi3 u2i3ge2 yefoigo kogo fu2mago-
goi2fe2fago yefoigo ge2 kogo yefoi2fe2fa fe2ma ige2 yefoi2fe2kogo fe3ma fo-
fe2ma fe2fa ge2 fe2ga3
ifu2ga3 fe3ma fe2ma fo eigo yefoifofa fu3fa fu2ma konaga3 yefoigo-
foifofa fe2fa konaga3 ei2naga3 fu2ga3 yefoige3 yefoigu3 konaga4-
konaga3 ei2naga3
i3fe2fa foma3 fe2fa ifu2 konaga3 fu2 ifo2 ge2 eigu2 konama2 naba-
foi2naga2 ne2ga ne2ga2 yifoma konaga2 goi2 ge2 konaga3 yifofa-
mofoi ne3ma efa mo fe2fago konama

i3fonu2ga3 nu3ga3 e2i3 foigo ge2 yefoige2 yefoigo e3yigo-
kou2 goi2ge2 fe2igo foi2go fe2fa efe2igo fe2igo ge2 igo kogo-
yefoi2ge2 yefoigo i2ne2ga3 fu3ma yifoma -kofe2ma fe2fago-
fe2yigo yefofomofe2mo
i2fe3fa fe3ma fu3mo gu4 igo3 kogo-fu2mo foyigo-
fe2i2gu2 fu2yigo fu2ma fu2ma konaga3-yefoi2naga4-
yefoi2ge2 fe2fa fu2i2ge2 yefoi2naga3 fe2oigo-fe2igo i2naga3-
fu2ma fe2ma fu2 u3i2go gu2 yefoigo i2fokogo-konaga3 yigo-
yefoi2u2 yefoma ge3 i2foma fe3ko gofe2ba

i2fofoga3 fu2ma e2ige2 fofanafamo gu2iga4go yigo gu2-fe2 gu2 konaga3-
yefoine3ga3 mo fe2fa fe2fa yigo ge3 yifofa ko-goife2ma konamago-
fe2fa fe2fa i2foma gu3 fokonaga3 yefoige2 inaga3-mofu3igo2 mogo-
gofu2 foigu2 foi2naga3 yigo fofaige2 yifou-fu2ifu2 foi2naga3
ifofe2ga ne2ga2 nu2ga fu2igo egu2-gu2-
kofe2ma fe2fa ne2ga3 nu2ga3 yifoko konama-me2 fu2kogo-
yefokofe2 i2fe2ma konaga3 goi2naga3 ko--ku2go-fe2yigo u3i2go-
foifofa fu2ife2mo fe2fafokogo konaga2 eyi-ge2 yifokogo kofofa-
fu2 fe2i2foma fe2ma ge2 gokonaga3 fe2 goi2o4 fonaga3-
yefoi2foga3 foi2naga3 fe2 yi ge2ko-ge2i2nama-
konaga3 eifo2mo foyigo konama ge2i-foifokogo-
yefoi2fo2 ga4foma foige3 mogo

foi2mo4go ge3 fu2ma ge3 i4fe3kogo gu3 ige2 me3 kofo gu3-
gofe2kogo ge3 ei2go i2fu2 i2fo3ma fe3ma gu3 u2i2fo3kofofa mogo-
fe2konaga3 fe2mago ge3 kofoga3 monaga2 fe2managa2 ge4 i2bo3-
yefoi2oge2 yefoi2fo yefoi3 ne2ma mofoga2 ne2ga yefoine2ga3-
fe2i2fo yefoi2foge2 kogo4 koi2fo3ma fe3fa konaga2 fe2mago-
kofe2mafofa fu2 fe2ma fe2ma fomanaga3 kofoma me2fo3ma kogo-
yefoma ne2ga2 yifomage2
foi3fe2fafofa me3go2 mofe3ma ge3 foi2no2fa kofe3ma ge3-
koge3 yefone2ma fe2fa i2no3ga3 eyigo2 fe2ma e2i2go-
foi2ne2ga3 kofe2ma ei2ne3ga yefoige2 eifoma fe2kogo-
foife2ma fe3ma ge3 fe3ma ge3 mofoo4 gokogo2 mofoma konaga3-
koge4 yi2go2 yi2go2 konaga3 ei2no2ga3 konama fe2ma yike2na-
fe2konaga3 eige3 ne3ma gu2i2go3

yimone2ga2 fu2monaga3 fe2yigo2 fu2 e2i3ge2 fu2ma nu3ga3-
yefoife2ma ge2 u2i2fe2ma fe2mago i2fo2mafofa ge2 konaga3 yifofakogo-
fe2ife2fa konaga3 yifofa kofoga3 konaga3 fe2i2fo2ma konama eifoyigo-
foige3 konaga3 fe2ma e2yi2go yefoife2ko konaga3-
konaga2 fe2igo ei2fofa goifoma fe3fa kogo-
yefoi2fo3ma fe2i2fofa fe2i2fo2kogo konama2 go-
ne2i2ge2 fu2i2fe2ife2 yifo moma4mo-
fogogu2 fe3ifofa yi3fonaga3 yi3go2-
yefoife2ma fe2ma gu4 fe3ma mofomo-
fu2 fu3fakogo foife3ma konaga3-
fu2fa fe2i2ge4 konaga3 i2ge2kogo

i2ko3go2 yefoi4ke3go mu4 naga3 yefoi2o2i3go2 e2i3na i2fo2-
koge4 konaga3 foi2ko3go yefoi2mo3 monaga3 u2i2go2 yeoi4-
yefoi2go3 ge3 konaga3 yefoi2go3 monama2 e2i2go2 monaga3 konago-
yefoinama ge2 konama fafomanama ge4 i2fo3fa ke3go yefoi2go2-
konaga3 fu4kogo yefoi2fo2ma
ifu2i2fo2kogo yefoi2ko2go yefoiko2go e2i3fo ke3nama naga3 konafa-
goi2ko3nama monaga3 e2yi2go2 fu3fa yefoi2ko2go goi2ko3go ke3go fakogo-
ku3go yefoi2ko2go fe3fa fe3ko yefoi2fo2kogo fe3fa e3yigo-
konama3 fu4 uyigo2 foi2fo2fa
ifoi2 mu2fo foi2ko2go foi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go konama ku3gu3-
fofafu3fa yefoi2ge2 konafa ge3 kogo3 i2ge2 i2go3 goi2naga4 goi2go3-
yefonaga3 gome3 foi2ko2go gu4 ke3naga3 konama-
fofafu3ma yefooi2ko2go foiko2go goi2ko2go konafamo-
monama3 foma ke3go konaga3 foi2ko2go-
goku3nama2 fu3fa e2i2go foi2ko2naba-
foifo2ma naIIyigo

i3fokonama2 ku4go foiko2go foiko3go yefoifofa fe3 monamanama foigo3 koi2emanama nafamo-
goife2mo foyi2go2 foi2fo3mo fe3kogo foi2go3 i2fo3kogo konaga3 fe3kogo i2ko3go-
konama2 yiko2go yefoi2ko2go foi2fo2kogo ke3nama foi2ko2nafa foyi2ko2go foi2ko3go foinaka-
goi2fo2mo fe4go fomanaga3
i3fe4kogo yefoi3 ke3nafa efa2yi4go e2i4fe2fa foma e3i4nafanaga3 foi3nafa fu2fo foinama-
fofai2ko3naba me3 fe2fa i2fo3fa e2yi2go foi2fo2fa foi2fofa foi2go fe3i2nama foi2foma namago-
goi2naga3 e3i2gu4 goe2i2fo3ma fe3ma foma e3yigo foi2fo4 i2ko2 fage3 foi2naba-
goiofe3fa fu3oi2go foi2fo2mo naga3 nayi2ko2go ei2naga3 e2ige3 yigo3 foi2no2ma-
konama fe2nama nafa i2nama fofo4mo fe3mo naga3 foyi2go2 foi2fo2 i2foma foi2fo2fa naga2-
monaga3 nama yi2fo2mo ke3go foi2go3 yefono2ma fomanaga3 ne3ba-

i4ne2ga3 gu2i2fo2kogo konaIIfokogo konaga2-fu2 ige2 foigo yefokogo-
foi2foma foi2fe2ma fu3ma yi2go konafa-kofu2konama yefoife2fa-
yefoi2fe2ma fe2ma yifofa fe2fa kofoma-kofe3konaga2 konaga3-
mofe2ma kofu2ma goifu2 konaga2-konaga3 fe2kokonafa-
yefoige2 yefoi2ge2 konaga3
i4fe2 ige3 ke3go-
foifofa kofofa fofakonama2-
yefonama konaga3 konaba-
kogo ife2ma konamago-
kofe2ma yifo konaga3-
fu2mo ei2fofa ga-
fu2konaga3 eifofa-
foikofomafofa konaga2 konaga3 yigo-
moge3 yefoigu3 konaga3 yimo-
yefoi2ge2 yefoifofa kofoma3 fofa-
foife2fa ge3 mofoigo-
fe2i2fo2fa kofe2igo-
kofoga3 fu2gu2-
kofofa kofe2fa konaga-


i2fe3konaga3 fe2fai2oge2 yefoinaga3 konaIIfonaba-fofe2i4fe2kogo-
konaga3 fokonama ge2 konaga3 ge3ife2 fakogo-konaga2 ifo2ma-
fu2ma konaga3 eyi2go kofu2 konaga2 konaga3 mo-fu2i2go2 i2na-
foma ema fe2ma kofoma ne2ga3 yefoife2ma ge2-kofe2konaga3-
fe2i2ge2 konaga3 gu2 fe2ma yefoi2naga3 konaga2-kofe2fa kofoma bo-
foi2ne2ga fe2fa nu2fa koeyigo
i2fu2 yi3fomo u2 nu3ga3 foiufe2ma konaga2-uyi2go mo fokonaga-
yefoikogo yi4go moi2go2 fe2yigo konaga3 yinaga3-konaga3-
fu2i2fo2fa fe2ma fe2fa konaga3 fofa yifofa kona-nama-
fofa fu2 ga4go

iku2nama ku2foma u2i3ke2go yi3fokogo goi4fofakogo yefoi4foyi2kogo foike3go fai4ke2go konaga3-
goike3go yefoi2nama e2i2go foi2nafakogo yefoi2nafakogo foifoma fofakonama yefoinama foinama
foinama konaba
fanaga3 go e2i2go yefoi2ko2go ku3go ke2nafa e2ke2naga3 yefoi2ge2 fokogo e2i2ko3go goi2naba-
inaga3 e2i2go2 foma fofa naga4 monaga3 foi2naga3 konama ke4go ei2go i4nama naga3 mo-
i3nama2 foma naga3 foinaga3 fofai2foma naga3 foi2nafa foinafa ke2nafa u2i2nafa yema3i2nama
foinaba-
goigo3 fu2kogoi2ke3go kogo e3i2nama foi2naga3 foi2naga3 konaga3 foi2nafa-
konama fe2mo naga3 foma naga3 e3i2naga3 foi2naga2 nama foi2go4

inamanama konaga3 gokonaga2 yigo2 kofofa mo-u3i2go namanaga3 u-
i2ke2go konaba kogo-foi2go foinafa konaga2 ke2go-goinaba foinaba ne2ba-
konama eyi2go kogo-kogo i2go-yi2kogo foi2go konaba-foi2nama kogo i2naba kogo-
ifoi2nama ku2go konafa-yefoi2nama ku2-foifokogo ke3go-goi2ko2go kofokofa konaga2-
ike2go fe2kogo foi2naga3 eyi2go kofoma namafa-yigo kogo igo kogo goi2nama e2i2go kogo-
gofe3 konama fofanaga3 foi2nama ke2go ke2go fofakogo-foi2nama ke2go
iku2go u2i4ke2go uyi2kogo fofaiko2go konaga3 foi2go fe3fa fomanaga2-ke2go ku2go i3fomanama-
konamanama gu4 i2ko3go foi2ge2 foi2nama foi2fo2go ge2 konaga3 komo kogo-konama naga3foi2namago-
monama fomanaga3fe2ma nama ui2nama2 fu2fa foma eyi2go nama naga3 -foi2naga2 konafa kogo-
fafe2nama foma ge3 fafokonaga3 fofoma foi2ko3go foi2nafago-
inama nafa i2go3 fomanaba

i3fe3oi3ge2 fofanama gofa-goi4fokogo foi2ko2fokogo fu2ko fofafofakogo konama goigo2-
goinama fu3kogo fofanaba-foyiko2go foiko2go ke2naga2 fofaigo2 i2go3 igo-
yefoiko2go ge2igo ke2nafago-konama ke2 foiko2go yefoifofa foi2ko2go kofokogo fokogo inaba-
goiko2go konaga3 ge3 naga3-gu2 eyi2go-
yefoiko3go ku3go ku3go fofa-foi2mo2 nama-fofaike3go foiko2go konaba e3yigo-
foifo2fa e2i2go2 e2igo2 fofafa-me3go-goi2ko3fa ke3go foigo2 foi2naga3-
yefoi2ko2go konafa ke2go fofage2-goi2ge2-konaga3 e2i2go i4nama nama3 naba bo-
fu2ige2 yefoi2go fofai2-e2yi2go-goi2ko2go yefoi2ke2go monama fofakonaba-
goi2ke2go yefoko-nama-eyi-nayi2go-gomonama2 nama2 fe2konama inaba-
foma fage3 ifokonafago foi2naga3 konamakogo
ife3 fofaeyi2go fofago-foike2go e2i4nafa me2-
yefoi2go3 ui2nafa konaga3-e2i2go yikonafago-foike3go eigo monaga3-
ne2ma naga3 foi2foma nama ifofa yefoi2nama eyi2go ke2nafa i2ko2 yefoi2nama nama konaga3konaba-
goi2fo2 fafoma foge3 fofago-foi2nafago i2oke2go yefoi2ke2go fe2ma nama naga4 konafago-
foma nama goi2nama fofa nafa foi2go-fe2kogo yefoi2nafa ke3go eyiko2go e2igo konamanaba-
monama2 e3i2nama e2i2go u2i2-fe2fa ke3go yefoi2ko2go goi2fe3fa eyigo

ku3go ke2go e2i4ge2 ku2go yefoi3ke2go ku2go kogoke2nafa ke2go goi3ke2go yi2yikogo moi3naga3-
ifofa yefoi2ge2 kogoke3go foi2ge2 eyi2kogo ke2naga3 yi2go fafomo3 goi2nama naga3 fofakonaba-
goinafa fu2ma ke2nafa fofake2go ne2ma foma fofa i2ko2naga4 eyigo foi2ke2go eyi2go konamanaba-
ike2naga3 e3i2nafa ku3go yefoi2ko2nama ke2naga3 fofakonama yefofakonama ke3go konaga3foinaba-
fanu2ma3 fomanama2 ku3go e2ge3 kogo i2go2 i2nama2ke3go yefoi2nama e3i2nafago ne2fai2go
gofu3mo foinama nama fe2managa3 e2i2go faeke2naga3 foma fofakonama ke2nama foi2naba-
fafu3kogo yi3go yefoi2go3 i2ko3go i2ke2go ke3go yefoi2ko2go ke2go namafa mu2 fofakonaga3-
konaga3 ke2go iko2go i2ke2go foi2ko3go e2yi2go ke2go i2naga2 ne3ma foma foi2ko2go foi2naba-
gofu2mo fokogo mo naga3 foi2go2 foi2nafa ku3go

yifofoma fe2fago yigo fe2igo ne2ma kogo-
yefoi2no3ga3 fe2i2naga3 yefoige2 konaga3-
kone2ga3 yi3go2 yefoige3 inaga3 yifomago-
yefoige2 u2ige2 yi2fofa ge4 konaga3 konaga2 fa-
foife2ma fu2 ige4 moge4 konaga3 konaga2 foma-
mone2ga3 ne2ma ne2ga konaga3 -
fu2monaga3 ife2ma fe2i2go -
yefoi2go3 i2goi2naga3 konaga3
i3naga3 ne3ma naga3 ne2oma fu2ma ne2ga3-
fonaga3 ne2ga3 yi2go ma efa mo fe2ga4go konaga3-
une3ga3 fe2fa yinaga3 fane2ga3 fane2fa konafa-konama2 nafakogo ga-
fofafoma ge2 ne2ga3 ge2 inaga3 i2ge3 i2fofakogo-e2ine2ga3-
yefoi2foga3 ne2ga3 yefoi2ne2ga3 fagu2 fafokonafago-foigo3 inaga3-
yifofa fe2fa naga3 yefoige2 foife2ma konaga3-fu2fa-yefoinaga3-
fofe2ma mo ne2ga2 konaga3 goinaga2

i3nama fe2ma fe2yigo mofonaga3 nama-
yefoige2 foige3 i2fe2ma goigo-
fe2ma fe2i2go ge2igo konaga3-
goige2 yefoige2 koge2 yigo-
kofe2i2ge2 fe2yigo ei2foma-
fu2fa ige4 ei2ge4 eyinaga3-
ife2ife2ma fu2fa fu2 fe2i2fofa konaga3-
fonaga3 ife2ma fe2 fe2ige2 kofe2fa ko-
yefoi2ne2ga3 fe2i2fu2fa fe2ga3-
foi2ge4 fe2monama fu2mago-
yefoine4ga3 fe2konaga3-
kone2ga3 konaga3 konaga3 konafa mo-
fofa ne2ma fokonama ne3ma-
ine3ga3 gu2 inama konaga2-
goi2fofa fe3fa foi2ge2 ie-
gokonaga3 foi2go3 konaga3-
konaga3 konaga2 ei2nafago fe2fago-
konaga3 yefoi2o4 fe2i2fo3ma-
fe2i2go2 goi2fo2fa fe2fa konaga3-
mofokonaga3 gu2 koge2 yi2go konaga-
kofoga3 fe2ma fe2ma

ne2i4konaga yefomanaga2 eyi4nafa mofoga3 yi3foma nu2ga3 yigo konama2-
fomanafa fu2ma goinaga3 yefoinaga3 yefofofakogo eigo efa kogo ifoma-
yefoige2 ige2 konaga3 bonaga3 kofofa monaga2
i3fokonama3 yi3go yefogoi3fe2fa mofoma3-gu2-ge2 koge2 i4fe2ba konama-
konaga3 yefoma fe2fa yifofago mofe2ma-ge2 mogo ge2inamafoga3-
foi2naga3 yifoma goi2naga3 mo-konaga2 naga konaga-
yefoifofa yifofa foi2fofa kogo foi2ge2 goifomafomago mofofako-
goife2ma yifofa ne2ga3 goko-
goifokonafago konaga3 foinamafo

i3ne2manamago yefoi4fomafoba fu2naga3 ige3 eyi2go2 foinaga3 yi3nama konaga3-
yefoinama fe2fa konaga3 foinaga3 yefoinama goinama fofe2ma e2igo yi2foma kofoba-
koge2ige2 goifoma mo-foinaga3 yefoi3fe2ma foinama foine2ga3 mo-
yefoife2ma goi2go igo kogo-konaga3 yifoma
ife2ma yi2naga3 konaga3 yi3ne2ma-
konaga3 yifoma konaga3 konafa kogomo-
yefoi2go i2fo2fa foi2fe2ma ma4mo ge2 ne2ga-
goi2gu2 goige2 kofofa goigo kogo goi2go-
foi2naga3 goi2fe2fayefoko fe2mago-
goi2fe2ige2 konaga3 konafa2 ko-
foigo eyigo goifomagoko-
goifofa i2ge2 foigo ke2-
foi2go u2 yifofa foigo-
mofoga3 einaga2

ifoyi3gafa nu2ga3 yefoifoma foi4fe2ma foigo fe2mago konaga3 foifokonama-
goi2foga3 yifoma foi2naga3 yefoige2 goi2fokogo yefoi2naga3 fu2 goinaga3-
yefogu2 yefoi2naga3 yifofakogo yi2foma foi2go kogo
i3fe2ige2 konaga3 yi4nafakonama fe2fa konaga3-goko-
goi2go yefoi2ge2 yega4ife2ma ei2fofa foifofago-
fu2ma fu2fa yefoi2ge2 yega4ifobafokogo-kofe2fa konaga3-
mofoma ge3 i2foma yefoi2foma konaga3
i2foga3 fe2mafokogo yefoi2naga3 fu2mago foinafa-fu2ma fu3ma konama-
yii2fe2kogo yefoige2 goi2naga3 ge2 yefoifomakogo-foife2fafofakonaga3-
yefoifo foi2fe2fe2ma kofe2ma ge2 gu2 konaga3-
foi2fe2ma konaga3 yi2go konaga2 konaga3

ifu2kogo yefoyigo yefoifofakogo fe2i3konaga2 mofofa-
kofoma fe2fa yifoma fomafe2ne2ma konaga3-
yefoi2foga gu2 fe2ga konaga3 kogo-
kofu2ma kogoifomago kofu2ma konaga3-
kofe2ma yefoifofa goi2fe2ga konaga2-
gofoi2fomo goife2ma monaga3 foigo-
yefoife2ma konaga3
yefoifoma fe2naga e2ige2 konaga3-
kofoma fe2ma fu2 konaga4 konaga3-
monaga3 fu2go foi2foga3 ge3 ifoba-
yefoinaga3 fe2mafoma yifofa konaga3-
fe2ma fu2fago nu3ga3 kofoifokogo-
mofoifoga4
ifokonaga2 yi3naga3 yi3fomafokomo-
mo ga4 fe3i2go konaga3 konaga2-
yefoifoma konaga3 fe2inaga3-
konaga3 yei2naga3 yefoinafa konaga3-
gofe2yi2go2 goifofakonaga3 mo-
fouyifo kofo konaga3 yifofa mo-
yefoifofa goifoga3 fe2yigo2
goifo fe2fa konaga3

ifofafoma fe2yi2go-foi2go fe2ga3 foi2fu2fa fofago foi2go-
foi2gu3 fe2kogo mo-goifoga3 foinaga3 foinaga3 yinama-
yefoi2foma foi2naga3-foinaga3 yefoi2fe2fa fe2i2foi2foma-
gofe2i2ge3 eyi2-ge2 ei2foma fokonaga3 konaga3 mogo-
foi2foma ge3 i2naga2-fe2ma yifo konaga2 yi2fofakogo-
gofu2 fu2 i2fomo-konaga3 foi2fogo fe2fe2ma konaga3

foi2fe2i3 fe2fa fu2ifofa foifo2fa foi2go3 mo-ne2ma konaga3 ko-
fe2ga3 gu3 i2go2 fu2 foga3 mo fe2fakogo-foi2no2ga3 foi2naba-
yefoi2go3 i2fo2ma konaga3 foi2go2 i2go3 konaga3 konama2 konaga3 mo-
foi2go3 konaga3 yefoi2ge2 fe2igo2 ifokogo-foi2go naga4 ko-
yefoigo konaga3 fe2fa foifo3fa kofokogo-fe3ko fe2kogo-
fu2 i2go4 i2go2 igo2 konaga3 konaga4-konaga2 konaga2-
konaga3 yefofa ge2 konaga2 mofoma konaga3-konaga2 konafakogo-
fonaga3 ne2ma efu2fa fe2i2naga3

iko2fo eku2 yi3fo2i4go ke2naga2 gu3 i4gu2 kogo fomanaga2 e3i3naga3 foi4go gu3 i2fofago kogo-
fofage3 e2i2go yefoi2ko2go u2i2gu3 yefofanaga2 eoi2gu ke2go konama2 uyi2go2 kofofa ko-
yefoi2nafa ke2go e3i2naga3 e2yi2go konama ku3 yefoi2ko3nama ke3go konama nama ge4 kogoyi2go-
ike3go ke2go fofanaga3 ke3go uyi2koge2 fe2fa foma fomakogo me4 nafago foi2nafa be3-
koke2go ke2go goi2naga3
i3ke2naga3 ku3naba yefoi4ke3go ku3go i2ke2go kogokogo foi3e3i2naga3 fu2yi2go2 ku2nafafo mago-
koke2nama ke3go fe2fanafa yefoi2ko2nama ke2go eyi2kogo konama nama nafa gokogo mo4 naga4-
fake3go ku3go yefoi2naga3 ei2go i4ke3go foi2naba eyi4go2 monaga3 eyi2go konama2foba-
ike3go fu2fa fokonafa yefoi2naga3 ku2naga3
i3ke2nama ku3go nama nama3 foi2nama2 goi2fo2famo ku3go yefoyi2kogo fanaga3 ui2go-
koku2go nama nama3 go goi2nama ke2go goi2nafa fofai2naga3 yefoi2nafakonama fe3fa konama
naga3-
ifoi2 ke2naga3 eyi2go monaga3 fofafoma efa monaga3 foi2go me3naga3 konafa-
goifoma ke2nama gu3 yefoi2naga3 fe2ma i2nama fu3fai2ko2go foiko2go iko2go monaga3-
konayi2 uyi2go e2i2fa fofa konaga3 ke3go goi2go3 konaga3 foinafa ke2naba yema3i2naba-
yefoi2i2naga2 fofafe3fa konaga3 konama fofa kofa konama na foma naga3 foi4e3i4nama-
foifo2fa fe2fai2nafa yefoi2nafa konama goi2kogo

i3konama2 ke2go i4kogoi2naga2 foma nama2 gu3i2naga4 foi4ge2 i2nama fomanaga3 kofofai2go
foku2go-
mofoma gu2i2nama fe2fa yefoigo i2ke2go fofai2go konama ke2go goi2nafa fofai2ko2naga3 fokogo
kogo-
konaba fe2ma foi2naga2 foi2naIIi4fe2kogo monaga3 fomanaga3 yefoi2naga3 goifokonaga3 foi2naba-
go foi2go3 fe2kogo fe3ma naga3 foi2fokogo fe2konafa goi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go konafa fokonaga3 ui2go-
goiko2go i2foma foma u3i2go i2naga2 foinama foma naga3 foi2naga3 yi2fofa fofai2foma foifoma
foi4ge2-
fai2ko2go foi2ge3 fu2ma yefogoi2naba fe2yi2yi4go2 foma nafago uma4kogo
i3nama kogo ku3go yefoi2nama ku4go fomanafago-fofanama3 foi2nama nama-
fooi2nama naga3 fofai2naga3 fofai2go konama nafako-u2i2 e2i2 yefoi2ge2 konama naga2-
inama naga3 konafa nama naga2 fe3ma gokonaba-fu2kogo foi2nafa ku2go i2gu2 foma-
konama nama goi2nama foma goi2go ke2go i4fe2ma-yefoi2naga2 nama ku4go fofae2i4-
monamafoma ke3go u2i2naba yefoi2nama efa-goi2ko3go eyi2go konafafoma kogo-
i3naga3 nafanaga3 foinafa ke2 foi2nama naba-foi2nama fe3konafa foyi2go-koga2 foyi2ko2go foiko2go
foi2ko2go-fake2go foi2naga3 konaga4go-
inama naga3 foi2naga3 fe2fafokogo

i3ge3 i2fo2konama nafakogokogo-yefoi2go foi2nafa ku2go fofai2ko2go foi3me3 nama foma konaga3-
yefoi2nama foi2nama foi2ko2go konama-goi2ge3 i2naga3 foi2fomo ke3go foi2nama namanafafoma-
gu2 yefoi2nafa ke2go eyi2ko-foifoma nama3 foi2go foi2fofage2 yefoi2nama foi2naba-
foma naga3 e2i2fokogo konama-yefoi2fofa foi2naga3 foi2nama foi2go foi2fofakogo fofa-
fafoi2nama yefoi2nama foi2nama-foi2fofa fofa ke3go yefoi2ke2 nama nama foma konaba-
ifoma foma nama fu2i2 foma naba fofaku2go yefoi2naba ke2go i2nama fomanaga3-
gonaga3 e3i2naga3 foi2go goge4
fu3 i2go4 konama naba2-i2fe3 yi4kogo fomanaga2 e2i4nafa konaga3 kobo-
inaga3 nafa fofanaga3 nama-konaga2 foi2naga3 foi2naga3 foi2naga3 konamanaba-
monaga3 fofage4 ke2go-konaga2 goge3 i2namanama foi2go goi2ko2go foi2nama2 kogo-
ifonama goi2naga3 fomago konafa

i3ke3naga2 e2i4naga3 fofakogo-
ifokonama yefoi2naga3 fofa namanaba-
monama2 naga2 foi2naga3 foi2naba-
inamanaga3 foi2naga3 eyi2go-
mofofanaga3 foi2nama fofago eyi2go-
yefoko3naga3 fofa ke3go konaga3-
fu2kogo yefoi2fofa ke3go monafa-
fe2konaga3 ei2nafa goi2ko2go foi2nafa-
ige2 i3fe2kogo i3ke2go i2foma fofa-
iei2naga3 ike3go yefoi2naga3 fomanaga3-
make3gofoyefoi2fofa ke3go konafafoma nayigo-
goe4i2go konaga3 foi2naga3
ifomo3 ke3go i2ko2go fofai4ke3go yefoi2ko2go-konaga3 e2i4naga2-
monaga3 fofage3 i2ke3go foi2nama yefoi2ke2go kogo-yefoi2mo3 naba ke2go-
yefoi2ge3 yefokogo foma naga4 foi2naga3 foyi2go-fu3ko i4naba2go-
fu2fa i2ko2go fafoma nama foi2nama yefoi2goi2ko2go ma-goigo3 yefoi2naba-
ifoge3 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naga3 foi2fo2ma yefoi2nama foi2mo3 nama foi2go-
monaga3 foinaga2 eyi2go foi2nafa foi2nama2 namafofa-yefoi2go2 foi2namago-
i3ke3go e2inama foi4nama2 namafokogo

i3gu3 i2ko2nafago3 foi2ko2 u3i2go4-foi3namo2 i3ko3 yefoike3go ui2nai2ko3go-
goi2fo3 nafa nago2 goi2ko2go i2oku2go kogo-kofoma gofe3i2go yefoi2ko3 ei3go yefoi2ko2go kogo-
yefoi2 manago yeoi2ko2go goke2goi2ke2go-yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go u2i2ge2 e2i2go konafago-
ke2go3 goie4i2go goi3ke3go moke2go-i2ko2go yigo2 mo% foigo3 foinafa konaba-
yefoige2 monafa goiko3go i2ke2go-koke3go i2ko3go koke3go konafanaga2
ku3go2 i3fofake3go yefoi2go3 e2i2ko2go goigo2-ei2fe2ko goi3ke3i3go uyi3ku3go-
i3nama ke2go i2ge3 goiko3go yefoi2fo2kogo-foi2ko2go ei2ko2go yefoi2ko2go ke3go yefoi2ko2go-
konama2 ke3go eyi2go yefoi2go2 fake2go-yefoi2ko2go yefoi2nafa e2i2ko2go yefokonama naba-
yefoi2ko3go foi2ko2go e2i2ko2go ke3go-ei2fo2kogo e2i2foma konaga3 fe3 nafa foiko2go-
mofu2i2 ku3go yeoi2ke2go koke2nafa ko-goiko2goma4yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2-
goi2fo2kogoi2ko3go e2i2ko3go e2i2ko2

i3fe3kogo yefoi4e3i3go foi4ke2go yi4oi2ke2go-goi3ke3go e2i3e2i4goku2ke2go yefoinafa konama-
koku3go ige3 mo naga3 u3i2go2 foi2ko2go foi2nafago-konaga3 foi2ko2go goi2fo3kogo fe2goi2fo2go
konaba-
yefoi2fo2kogo foi2go2 yefoi2fo2kogo fofafo3fa fai2ko2go-fai2fo3kogo yefoi2ko3go foi2go3 yefoi2ma3fa
u2ma3fa mo-
gofe3mo fofage3 konaga3 foma fe2fa fofa naga3-foiko3go yefoifo2fa foifo2konama fomanaga2-
inamanaga3 fofa fe3mo goiko3go foi2nafa fofako-foifo2fa yefoi2nafa foma foifo2kogo-
goi2go3 foi2go2 goi2fo3fa yi2kogo ke2nafa-goi2fo2naga3 foi2fo2kogo fofago-
konaga3 fofai2fo3 fai2fofa ke3go foi2go3

fu2 foi4naga3 yi2naege2 foige4 i3ne3ma-
fu2fai2naga3 ne2ma e2i2go foinu2ga3 konama3go-
ifogu2 einu2ma fe2inama ne2ga2 konafa-
fu2ma e2inama fe2inama2 konama yinaga3-
yefoi2nama fe2yi2go fe2ifoma ge2 i2namago-
kofomanaga2 ne2ma
i3fe2 ge2 i2nu2ga3 fu2inaga3 ne2ba nu2ga-
yefoine2ma foife2fa yifoi2fe2konaga ei2fe2mago-
fe2igo kofofa i2fu3 yifoma foifofa yifofa fe2fa-fu2fa konaga2-
yefoifoma fe2 fe2kogo konaga3 fe2fa yigo3 konama-ge2 konaIIkago-
kofe2fogo fe2fa fu2fa fe2i2naga3 fe2oi2go koyi2go-konaga2 konafa-
yefoi3foma fu2fa fu2i fu2fa fu2fa konaga3 konaga2 mo-ne3ba-
fu2i2gu3 fe2igo ke2naga2 fe2konaga3 konaga3-
i3fe2kogo foigu3 kofokonaga3
i3gokonaga3 fu3ma nu2ga3 iu fofage2 fu2fago-
fe2ifofa fu2fa e2igo konaga3 fe2i2ge2 ei2naga3-
yefokogo yifoge2 foinaga3 gu2 i2mu3 fe2managa2-
foife2igo konaga3 fe2i fu2 yi2go yigo mo fomo-
fu2fa fe2fa fu2i2go foi2fofa fu2 fe2fa fu2fa ne2fa-
fu2fa fe2fa fe2fa fu2fa oifoga3 ugamo fokonaga-
i2ne2ga3 fe2mo yi2naga3 fe2mafoma ne2ga3-
foi2fe2fa fu2fa i2fofamome4

i3fe2 yifo gu4 yefofe2inaga3 fu2famo-fe2fa fe2ma konaga2-
kouge2 ige3 goi2ge3 eige2 yi3go konaga-konaga2 foifofa konaga3-
fu2 fe2ifokogo fe2ifofa foi2go fe2fa fe2fa-kofa eyigo foifogo-
yefoige2 ei2ge2 monama kogo-fokonafa3-goi2ge2 foi2fofa koko-
fe2i2fo3ma ga4go2 e2inaga-monamago-foi2fofa e2inaga3-
foi2fo2i2no2ma fe3ine2ma-mogo-monaga3 yinama konaba-
fe2i2 fu3i2go2 i2go4 ko-e2i2mo3gu2-
mofokonafa monaga3
i3fofu3ma fu2 ne2ma e2i2ge3 yefoi2foko-fu2 yi3fo2ma ge2-
mofe2ma foi2ge3 ge2 fu2fa fofafoma ne3ga3-yigo2 ie4 ko-
yefonaga3 yefoi2go3 i2fe2fa ne3fa foifo2fako-gu3 ino2ga3 ko-
fe2ige4 fe2fa fofa ne2ga3 foino3ga3-ga4i2ge2 inaga3 go-
fu2 ge3 ifo2ma gu3 e3yigo2 konaga3-fe2i2go3 konaga3-
yefoigo3 ge2 i2ge2 yigo oimu3 fe2fago-namanama nama nafa-
fe2i2go2 fe2fa foi2go2-foi2foma fokogo3

inamafokonaga3 goiko2go fe2kogo i4einama eyi3ko2go goi3nama fu2fa i4fofafoma naga3 yi3go2konama-
goifo2kogo foifo2fa goiko2go nama e2igo konama nama3 foi2nafakogo konamanafa foike2go
konaga3 konafa mo-
goigo goigo foigo fu3kogou gofofafoma goiko3go i2naga3 ei2go yefoigokogo konamanaga3goi2naba-
konamanama goigo2 iko2go i2nama namanama u2i2nafake2go fe2fai2go yefoinafago ke3go foigo
foinaba-
gonai2ma ke3go u2i2fokogo yefoifokogo yefoinama foi2ko2go konama fe2oige2 konaba foinaga2goinaba-
i2ke3go ke3go konafago fe3kogo fe3fai2o3i3ge2
i3mu3go foigo2 i2ku2go foi3ke2go i2ko2nama foiko2go ke2go fu2yi3go2 kogoigokogo i3ke2go i2ko2go
konaba-
goike3go ke3go fe3kogo gu2 yefoga4 u4i2go ke3go konaga2 gu2 goi2fofafoma foinaga3 fofako-
i3konu2ma3go konafaifo2gu2 kofofago u3i foma namafokofa fai2fo2ma namanaga3 foiko2go
foi3fofakogo-
i3ku2nama ku3 fokogo yefoiko2go goi4ke2go yefoyi2ko2go foi3ke2go konaga3 yefoi2ko2go
kogokogokogoyema3inama-
goike3go igo fu2fa ifofakogo fu2kogo foike2go ku2go foifofafofa ku2 fofai2go goifofa foinamago
e2i2go kogo-
kofoma fu2fa yefoi2fofa ku3go yefoiko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2fokogo foi2ko3go foiko2go ku3go
ma3igo goigo kogo mona
iku3 yefou2yi2go2 fokoko3go yefo2i2go3 yefoiko2go konau fu2kofokogo fu2fe2fa eyi2go goi2go3kogo-
goi2fo2kogo e2yi2go fe2igo3 fokonaga2 eyi2go fe2i2fomanaga3

koku3go yefoiko2go kofoma ge4 fokonaga2
ku3go foyigo foiko2go ke3go konama me3igo2 foi2fo2kogo foi2go foi2nafakogo i2ke2go foi2nama-
ifokogo iko2go yega4i fe2yigo ei2go foi2go ke2go foi2ko2go goi2naga3 ge3 fokogo konamago-
kogu3 goi2ko3go me4 naga2 gu2 yefoyiko2go ge3 yefoi2nama e2yi2go foi2naba-
yega4i2ke3go fomanafafokogo foiko2fofa eyikogo eigo2
ifofa i2ko3go foi2ko2go yefoi2ko2nafa ku3go foi2ko2nafa ku3go i3ke2fofa foigo2 yi4nafafomanaga2-
goiku3go goi2fo2kogo fogoi2ko3go ke3go iko2go eyigo foinaba foi goinaga3 foinama-
u2ife3kome2 foke3go foifo2kogo ke3go fe2kogo konaga3 fu3kogo goi2nama e2i4-
goiko3go fofafomo naga3 foyi2go3
inama fe2ma nama nafakonama ke2go konafakonama e2i3go goiko3go mo goi3ge3 i3ke3go goi4foma-
gogu4 fomanama2 goigo3 fe3kogo nama fu3 yefokogo eyi2go ke2go fe2igo u3yigo-
gou3 i2ko2go konama ge3 yefoiko2go oinaga3 ke3go yigo2 foifo2fa fomanaga3 fokonaga2-
koku3go iko2go yi2ko2go e2i2ge4 kogoi2fo2kogo foiko2go e3inaba foi2ko2nama nabanaba-
kogoi2ko3naga2 ke3go foi2ko3go ke3nafa fofai2go2 e2i2go fe2nafa ke3go foifo2mafoba-
foifo2ko yefofai2go3 i2nafakogo ge2 konamafokogo yefoi2go3 i2fofa konamago inamafomo-
fofa mo4 naga3 fofafonaga3 foifo2mo yefoi2go ge3

ifu2koi3go fomanayi3 i2fomo3 goi3fu2fago gu2 foifofa fonaga3-
gokou kogomo4 goigo foi2go foi2ge3 yegoi2ge3 koge2 kogo-
fonama2 oi2foi2go3 i2fu2ifofa foinafa konaga3 foifoifogo i2nafa-
gofe2ma goi2ge3 goi2ge2 fe2kogo i3naba
ifogo gu2 fu2 yefoigo3 ne2ma e4i2go gu4 goigo2 konaga3-
kofu2ma goife2fa gu2 fo e3i2ge2 yefoige2 foige2 konama-
yefoiu fogoko fu2fa yefoi2gu2 fogoigo fe2ba
i3gu2 foi3ge3 yefoi3ge2 foi4ge3 ma foma2go fu2fafofamo goi2ge2-
foife2fa fofa koeyi2go yefoi2go yefoige2 yefoi2ge2 yefoi2go ko-
yefoi2fe2ma foi2ge2 yefoifo goi2fofa fe2i2go fe2i2go fe2fa konaba-
goifu2 yefoyi2go foi2fe2kogo

ifu2 yefoigu2 yifofa kofe2ma foifofa fu2fa ifofa yefoi2fu2fa foifofakogo-
gofofai2fofa fe3fa yefoi2ne2ga2 konafago foife2fa konaga3 fu2fa yefoifoma nama-
ifofa foi2fe2ma uyigo foifofa konaga3 yigo yigo
gofoi2nafagako nu2ga3 fu2ma fu2mafokogo ui2go fu2 goige2 foi3fe2ko foi3go-
fonaga2 fu2fa yigo yi3naga3 ii2fe2ma foige2 yefoigo goine3ma yinaye-
ifofa konama2 goi2naga3 kofofago i2ne2ga2 foigo i2go3 foife2fa goinaga3 kogo-
foi2goine2ga3 yifofa kogo fe3fa fofafofago
ifu3kogo yinaga3 fokonaga3 fu2fa gu3 yigo goi2fokogo fofa-
kofu2ma yimo3 fafofai2mo4 yi2go eyigo fafo-
fu2ma4bafoi2ge2 igu2 yi3naga3 yi3nafa i2nafa-
foi2fana fe2fa fe2fa fe2i2go foi2naga3 yigo foinafa-
goge3 ifo2fa ne2ga3 eyigo yifo yifofa-
fafe2ma fu2fa konama2fa

i3goi2gokonafa nu2yi2go foigo gu3 yefoi3 ne2ma foi3ne2fa goi3fe2ma foi4ne2ma-
fu2ma yigo yefoi2go yefoi2fofa yefoi2naga3 fe2fa fe2fa goi2naga3 konama foba-
yefo eyigo i2fe2fa konaga3 yefonaga3 yigo ne2ga3 goi2go3 yifoba-
fafomago i2naga3 goi2fo2fa goi2fo2fa ne2ba
i2fofa fu2 i3fe2ma i2ge3 igo foi3ne2fakogo foigu2 yefoi2ge2 kofofa konaga3-
foine2ma foi2ne2ma konaga3 goife2kogo ife2fafofa foinafa konafa konamago-
fane2ma yefoma goi2nama konama
fe2fa yigo yefokonaga3 yigo konaga2 yigo2 foigo konafa konaga3 bo-
kofoma foma ne2ga2 konaga2 goi2fofafokogo goinaga3 yefoife2fa i2fofa kogo-
foi2naga3 nu2ma goi2go foi2go i2nama2 konafakogo konafafoma fe3fa konafa-
fa foi2naga3 foi2fe2 fanafakonaga konafakonaga3



i2fomanamago ei2fo i2fofa ge3 i4fu2fafoba fu2ma goi2ge2 kofoko foi3ne2ga3 gafanafako-
foi2fofa fe2ma konaga3 yigo foi2fe2fa fe2ba foi2fofafoga kogo-foi2fe2fa mo-
yefoi2ge2 fafoma fe3fa yefoinafa yefoifofa ge2i2go yifoko-goi2nama goko-
foi2ge2 yefoyi2go konaga2 konafa2 konama2 gu2-
yefoifofa fe2ga3 foi2ne2ma konama foigo fu2ifo kofofa i3go-foigo inaba-
famo naga3 yi3foma yefoi2go2 ifoko-goike2go kogo-kogo be3
ieife2i2fe2fa kogu2 foigo fofa-goife2ba-
goi2fu3ma fono2fa fu2 kogo i3fe2ba-foifoma fonama3-
gofe2ma yigofe2fa yefoi2ba mogo-mona goi2fe2ba-
kofu2ma foigu2 foi2go ifu2fafofa-goife2ma ko-
fomafe2ma goige2 kofoga3 kofe2fakogo

i3fe3yi3go yefoiko2go e2igo kogo e2i3ge2 goi4e2i2go fomanaga3 u3 yefoifo2fa konaga3 u3 kogo
konafago-
mofokonaga3 fu4fago yefofoma fu3ifo2fago eyi2go konaga3 u2i2 u3i ku3go kofoma naga3 u2yi2go-
konaga3 fu2ma goi2nafa eyi2go konaga3 u2 konafa ku3go yega4i2fofa mo naga3 u3 goi2nama konaga3-
iku3nama fe2fa i2nafakogo eyi2go yefoi2nafakogo e3i2nafa eyi2go u3i2go u3i2go konafa foyigo2-
foi2ko3go u3i2go goi2go2 ku3go ke2go ui2go yefoifu3ko goiko2go goigo2 ne3ma
iko2go kogoiko2go u3i2ko3go goi3ke3go ke2nafafoma ku4go fokofomonaga3 foi3ke3go kogoi2ko2go
ke2naba-
kofofa fu2fa yefoi2naga3 goike2go yefoi2ke2go mo nama ke2go yigo foiko2go ke3go yefoi2nama
eyigo ba-
kofu3fa ge2 eyi2go gu2 ku2go ei2go fe2kogo yikogo mo fe3u ge3
iku2go ku2go i4ke3go kogo i4ke2go fu2fa i2mo3 goinafago i4ke2go kogo i2namanafa ui2go goigo
konamakonaba-
ige3 gu2 ei2nafa ke2 yefoi2kogo ku2go gokafofakogo fofanama3 fu3fa
i3ke2nama2 ku2 u2i3konaga3 ku2go foyi4ko2go yefoi3ke2go fakogo nu3ma foi3konama ku2go mo
goi4ke3go-
ioge2 konaga3 fu3yi2go e2i2go managa3 me3 gu3 i2nama u2yi2go ke2go eyi2naba-
nama nai2naga3 fu2fa foi2go3 fe2fa konama fofamo fanaga2go-
yefoi2nama fu2fa i2nafa fofai2fo2kogo-

fokogo faku3 goi3kogo ku3go foi3ke3go goiko2go fooi3fe2fa goi4ge3 ifome2go foi2nama goi2ke2go
konaga3-
goinama2 naga3 foike2go foi2nafago konaga3 yefoi2ko2go foinama nama fofakogo foiko2go monaba2foi2go2 ifokogo konaga3-
goigo4 i2fo2kogo fe2yi2kogo fe2inafa foi2nafa ku2go ku2go yefoi2nama foigo yefoigo ku3go ke3go
konaba-
gokonaga3 eyi2go ke2nafa fofanama eyi2kogo ke2fokogo inama ne2ba i2ko2go konaga3 goi2nama3uyi2oi4go-
fafokonaga3 ku3go yefoi2ko2go ke2go foi2ko2go kogoi2nafago konaga3 ke3go foi2ko3go monama
nama2 yigo-
ifoma nama3 ne2ma ku3go fofanaga3 yefoiko2go ku4go yefoi2nafakogo yefoi2ko2go konama2 fe2kogo
yigo2 ba-
koke3go e4i2go konaba ke3 fa ke3go ke3go foi2ko3me2go yefoi2ko3go e2iko2nama foma naIyi2go-
goiko3go ku3go e2yi2kogo eiko2go konaba2-
fu3fa nama ge3 foi2naga3 konaba2 foigo foba-
ifoi2gu3 foiko2go nafoyi3fo2ko foigo konaba-
konama2 nafago ke2nama eyigo ke2naba-
goi2nama ke3go

i3ne2ma2 fofago nu3ga3 fu2fa konaga3 ke2go-
fe2i2fe2fa fe2fa fe2fa kogo konama2 ne2kanaga3-
kofoma fe2fa ge2 ne2ga3 yi2go2 fe2fa konaga2 foi2naga3-
yefoi2fe3 yigo2 fe2i2naga2 fe2fa konaga3 i2ke2nafa-
konaga2 fofagu3 fe2i2fofa bo
i4fofama ge3 mofo fe2fa fu2fa naga3 fu2fa fu2fa ke2go fe2fafofa-
mome3go i2fe2ma yinaga3 fe2fa fe2fa fe2fa fe2ma yi2go2-
fu2i2go3 ge2 ife2ko fe2 fu2 eige2 i3naema yinaba-
ga4i2fo i2foma ne2ga3 foi2nafa fe2fa konaga3 foi2fe2 i2fe2ma mogo-
ge2 foife2 i2ege2 ifoma ge3 foige2 ife2fa konaga2 konaba-
kofu2 yi3go konaga3 konaga3 go

i3fu3i fe3ma fe2fafu2 fe2i3ge2 monafa-monamago-
kogu4 gu2 yi3go foige3 konaIIkago fe2mago-konaga2go-
fu2fa ne2ma foifo2fa kofoma foife2fa ei2ge2-konaga3-
yefoifofa gu4 i2fofa fu2 i2o3ge2 yefoigo yigo-
kofe2fago mu4 fe2ma fokogo gu2 mogo-monamago-
fe2kogo fe3ma monaga3 kofofe2ko-fe2fa
i3fe2konaga3 konama2 koyigo-
konaga3 fe3inama fe2konafago monafa-
yefoife4 e2igo fe2fa fe2fa konaga2-
fe2ife2 faige3 goife2ige2 kogo-fe2fa fe2kogo konama-
foigo3 fe2 ke2go ge2 i2go2 ge2i2go-koge2 konaga3 ge2-
fe2 fe2i2mo3go ge2 ge2 e2i2go-fe2ge2 konaga3-
kogu2 konaga3 fe2faoigo ne2ga3-koge4 foinafa ko-
fe2fa yigo3

i3ku2naga3 goi3ke2go foi3ge3 yi2go konafa fu3konaga3 fu3i2fo2fa goi2fo3kogo fofanaga3fo i3fonafa
kogo-
konaga3 goifo3fa fe3kogo i2ofe2kogu3 yefoiko2go einaga3 foike2go iko2naga2 foi2naga2 yi2go-
fu3kogo u2 ifo2igo3 foifo2konaga3 fokogo yefoifo2 fai2ko2go kofofa fokonafa yega4inama foi3e2igo
fakogo-
ifoi2i2fo2fa konaga2 foinaga3 goi2ko3go e2i goiko2go iko2go yefoi2kogo iku2go e2iko2go yiooigo ma-
goigo3 ifo2fa foi2fo2kogo fe3yi2go fofagu4 yefooi2naga3 foyigo2 fe2fai2nama naga3 yinama foko-
nafagu3 fai2ko3go goike3go yefoi2ko2go fafoinafa yefoifofa foinafa ke3 foi2go2 goi2go3 konafakogo-
ifoyigo yefoi2fo2fa goiko3go fafofai2fo2fa foifofa me3 nafa nama goi2fo3konaba foi2ko2go foi2naba-
foike2naga2 fu2fa foifo2fa foifo2fago goi2go3 konaba koma-
goioke3 nama fofai2go2 foi2fo2naba-

i3fe3koge2 koku3go i4ke3go fafomonaga3 goi2ko4go gu3 goi3ke3go iko3go ke2go goi3nama2go
ke3goigo-
nafage3 i2foma goi2fo2kogo fofai2go4 fe2kogo ke3go konafago-foi2fo3ma naga3 foinama nama2 naba-
koke3go ike2kogo foiu foi2go3 igo foinama nafake2go-goiko3go foiko3 goi2ko2go ba-
fai2go3 yefooyiko2go inaga3 ku3 yefoi2nama foiko2go kogo-konaga2 ifofai2naga2 foinaba-
ku2go yefoi2naga2 foi2nama foinama foma foimo3 fofa fomanaga2-foinafa foi2 goinama ke3go naba
i3ke3nama ge3-goi3ke3go foiko2go u2i4ko4go nafa-ku3go foiko2go i4fe3konafa yi3bo3-
foifo2kogo ei2go2 foi2ko2go eyi2ko2go goi2ko2go fofakogo-foifofago ge3 i2nafago ifoi2nama foinaba-
ifoma fu2kogo foi2nafa-foike3go e2i2go fofago fafofakogo fafofa-foike2go foifofakogo goinaba
foiko2go-
ifoi2 ke3go goiko2go-goi2fo2fa ke2goke2foma eifofa ke2go-goike3nafa yigo2 foi2nama nama namago

i3go fe2fa kogo fe2ma fu2fa uige2 fu2ma i3fe2ma foi3fe2ma fu2 i2ge2-
yefoifoma fu2 fe2ige2 fe2gu2 yefoi3ne2ma yefo kofoma konaga3-
kofu2 kofe2ma kofe2ma konaga3 kofoma fe3 managa3
i2fu2 yefokonaga2 fe2igu2 kofokonama-
fe2ma fu3ma ge3 igo3 yefoinaga-
fofafoma mu4 fu2fo2igo fe2fakonaga3-
yefoi2fo2ma ge4 yefoi2ge2 yefoifokogo-
fe2i fe2ma ge2 e3i yefofamofoma-
fogoi2fo3go ge3 i2gu3 fe2mafoga3-
fe2ma fe2ga3 fu2ma fu2ma gu2-
fe2ife3fa kofe2fa
i3fokonaga3 fe3 i2fe2 konaga3 eyigo-
fu2ko fe2fa goife3fa konaga3 yifokoko-
yefo fu2yefoi2go fu2ma fu3ma foifofa konaga3-
fofe2fa fe2fa fe2kogo kofe2konaga3 konaga3-
yefofe2 ge4 koge3 yefoife2kogo-
fofafofafofa ge3 ge3 i2ge2 yefoife2fa fe2mofomago-
fo2ma fe3fa foko fe2 koego4 yefoife2ige2-
kofe3ma ge4 i2fo2fage3 fe2i2fe2fa fe2i2naga-
yefoife2 fe2koI fe2 fe2ge2 me2 fomaga3-
fokofe2 fe2ma oigo fu2fa

i2fu2ma fu2fa yi3foi2fe2fa eyi4go2-
yefoi2kogo yefoi2fe2ko fu2 yi2go-
eige2 eyigo yigo2 i2fokokogo-
foi2fo2ko fu2 fe2ifu2fa konaba-
fu2fa fu2 konaga3 yefoine2ma-
yefoigo3 fe2i2ge2 fe2i2go-
foige2 fe2konaga3 konaga-
yefoimo4 fe3 konaga3 kofofa-
fofe2ma fu4ko i2fu3 kofa-
yefoi2fu2konaga3 uyi2go konama-
kofe2fa yifofa konaga3 fe2i2go-
fofe2i2go3 yi2go2 konaga3 konaga2 fe2i2naba-
yefoi2fo2fa fe2i2fo3kogo foifofa i2fe2mo fe2fa konaga3
i4fe2 fe2ma fu2fa ife2fa foi3fe3konafa kome2go-fe2ige2-
kofe2 kofe2fa fe2i2fe2konaga3 fe2i2ge2 ife2fa-foi2fe2i2fofa-
ife2ige3 fe2i2fo3kofofa mage4 foife2konama-kofe2kofe2bo-
fu2fe2e fonaga3 fu3 fe2igo
yefoife2 fe3fa fe2famo fe2 eyigo2 kofe3fa-fe2ife2kogo-
fe2i2fo2 fu2 fe3ma fe3i2e2i fe2ma konaga3 kogo-konaga3 yefoi2bo-
fonaga3 ge2 konaga3 fe2fa ne2ga3 i2nu2ma kogo-fe2i2ge2-
foi2no2ga3 fe3 fe2ma fe2igo3 i2fe3fa konaga2-fe2 konama2ga2-
egai2naga3 fe2 kofamo ne2maga3 konaga3 ne2ga2 kogo-e2ife2 kogo-
fonaga3 e2i2go i3 fe2 mame2me2go i2fe2ma mofofa-eifomo-
yefoife3fa ge3 fe2ma fe2i2nafago fe2ma konafa-ne2ga3 ko-
fe2fa fe2ma me3 ei2nafa ge2 fe2i2fo3i2go-fe2i2fomanaga-
goi2fe2i2fo2ma ge4

i3fu3ma fofai2nama2 fofai4ke3go yefoi3ko4nama foi3ge3 konama2 fofanaga3 e2i4ke2go-
mofoma fomau2yi2go foyi2fokogo fu2mo nafafofa kogo i2nama foi2go konaga4 fofanaga3 e2i4ke2go-
ifu2fa i2nama ku4go foi2fo2kogo yega4i2ko2go fe2kogo i2ke2go i3ke2go ei2naga3 fokonaba-
ike2go yega4i2nama ke3go yefoi2ke2go yefoi2naga3 foma nama nafa fofa i2fo2konaga3 fofamo-
mofofai2ge2 eyi2go yefoi2ke2go yefoi2ke2go foi2nama nama goyefoi2ke2go i2nama nama foi2naga2-
goi2naga2 nu3ma fofai2ke3go foi2nafa yefoifoma fe4ma fofai2ko3go konaga3yeboi2go-
ifokonafanaga2yeba3inafa i2naga3 foinaga3 foinafa u2 i2nama naga4 foi2ke3go konamaga3-
goi2 goi2naga3 u3i2nama foike2go konama i2nama ku3naga2 inaIi3nama fomafofai2naga2-
goike2go i2ke3go goi2go3 i2naga3 yefoi2naga2 nafakonafafomanaba-
mofofai2naga3 foi3nafa i2o eyi2go konamaga2 ei2go

ige2 kofo fakonama fu2ike2go yefoi2ke2go foi3ke3go yefoi2fofa fu2ma foi4nama i4nama konaba-
ife2konaga2 fogo4 foi2naga3 ku3go yefoi2nafago ke2go foi2go i2fo2kogo ge4 foi2naga2-
i3foke3go yefoi2fokogo e2yi2go uyi2go konafafofa goi2go4 yefoi2ko2go foi2naga2 foi2nafa-
konama yefonaga2 fofanaga3 fofamo naga3 fofa foi2ko3go foi2ge2 foinama eyi2go2 foma-
goge2 inama2 eyi2go yeoi2naga3 yefokonaga3 fofae2i2go ke3go ei2ko2go foi2ko2go ko-
konaga3 i2ko2nama2 foi2nafa fe2kogo yefoi2ko2go foi2nama foi2ge3 foi2ko2go foinama ei2go-
iko2naga3 fokonaga3 fomafo i2naga3 goi2foma konaga3 fe2i2go yefoike2go i2go2 konama2naba-
gonai2ma foi2nama2 foinama yefoi2ko2go goi2fe2fa i2nama eyi2go fofai2naga3 foi2naga2 yefoko-
goifu3ko naga2 u2gu2 oke3go i2ke2go foinaga3 foi2naga3 foi2go-
koke3go foi2naga3 fofake2go fofafoko3go goi2fo3konama namafoko-
fage3 i2nama goi2ge2 i2ke2go

ifu2fa koge2 yefoige2 foi3ne2oma goi3ke3go-
kofe3konaga3 yi2fo2kogo yi2fokogo fe2kogo-
gokofe2kogo yi2go2 foigo yi2fo2konama yefoi2go-
konaga3 yimo2 foi2fofa fe3kogo yi2go ego4-
ife3i3kogo yefokonaga3 foi2fo3 yefoyi2go2 inaga3-
gofe2monama eyi2go i2fe2 yefoi2ge2 yefoinama-
fofu2fa fokonaga3 yi2go2 yi2fo2kogo yefoi2go2 foigokogo-
ifoma konaga3 konaba2 yefe2konafa konafa yefokogo yefooinaba-
foi2fe2fa kofoma gu3 yefoi2fo2fa i2ge3 fu2fa foi2naba-
ife2konaga3 foi3fo3kogo yefoi2fofa foifo2konaga3 i2fofa foinaba-
gofomo3 yi2go3 i2fofa ne4fa foi2fo2ma yefoyi2go2 i3fe2konafa-
fonaga3 yi2fofa goi2fe3fa foige3 yi3fo2konaga3 goi2fo2fakogo-
konaIIyigo yefokonaga3 i2naga3konafa yi3fokonafa monafa konaba-
yefoi2fofa fe3ma yi2nafa mo fomanafakogo foinafa

i3fofu2kogo yefoi2fokonama fu2konaga3 yefoinafa-komoge4 monaga3 kogo-
kofu2kogo yi2fokogo yefoi2fofa kogoi2naga3 ge2-yefoi2go2 konaga3 yigo-
ife2kogo yigo eyi2go2 yefoko goife2kogo-kofe2fa monaga3 goinaba-
foinaga3 yefokonafa foifofa fe3konama mofokogo-foifo2konaga3 fe2i2fobo-
ifokonaga3 goifokogo yefoi2fofa fu2kofofa yefoyi2go-foi2fofa foinaga3 konama go-
foi2foma yifo2kogo yefoyi3go yefoi2fofa yefoinaga3-foigoi2fofa fe2fakonaga3-
yefoifofa fe2konaga3 yefoi2fe3kogo fe2ma fe2ko-goyifofa mo fofae2oigo-
fofai2o3 kogo yefoi2nafa yefokonaga3 yi2foma foi4nafa-
konaga3 yi2fofa nu2ga2 i2fe2fafofa-
goi2fo2fa fu3 yefoi2fokogo i4fofako-
gofe3i2go gu4 goi2go3 ge3-
fofe2yi2go konaga3 fe2yi2go-
konaga3 fe3fa fe3konaga2


ikofoi2eyi4go goyi3i2fo goinama2 nu2ma yefoi4gokonaga3 goi3ge2 foife2fa konama goigo-
foigo fu2ma goi2fofakogo yefoi2go i2fofakonafa foimo4 konafamo-foinama kofa-
ife2igu3 yefoigo foi2fe2fa ife2kogo yefoinaba foi2go-goifofakogo-
fafu2i3ge2 yefoi2go yefoige2 foigo konama foigo konaba-goeifoko-
i2go fe2ma foi2ne2fa foi2ne2ma fu2ma ifofa goi2nama2-goike2naba-
konaga3 ku3naga3 yefokonafa kogo fe2i2naba foife2makogo-foi2fe2fa kofo-
yefoi2gu2 yefoyi2foba konafamo fu2konaba2 ine2ba kofokogo-goi2go3 konaba2 naba-
fomage4 kofoma gu3 i2naba mo ge4 kone2ba konaga3-

i3fe2ma eyi3fofa yi3naga4 foife3ma goifoma i2fofa fe2yi3nama-
goige3 fe2fa yifokonama3 gu2 i2foma ufo4ma ge2 konaba-
fofoma fe2ma fe2ne2ma fama eife2ma goifofa fu3fa foinaba-
ife2ma yifo2ma yifo2fa fe4ma fe3fa eyi2go mofokogo-
goigo3 yifoma fe3ma yi3fo2konama kogo-monamabo-
foifokonaga3 yifoma foigo i2fe2fago
i3fe3fa fu2fafoga3 yifoma naga3-
i2fokonaga3 yigo yefoi2go3 mofofa-
konaga3 yi2fo2fa fe2fa yefoi2fo2fa konaga3-
gofoi2fo3 yefoi2fokogo fe2fa mofofa monaga3-
konaga3 fu2ma yefokonaga3 yi2go2 monafa-
yefooi2nama yi2fofa goi2fe2kogo yi2go-
goi2foma foi2naga4 yi2go4 konaba3-
fokonama fe3i2foma yi2go3

i2fokonaba fe2yifokogo foi2go-
kofofa konaga2 mo fe2 u2 foigo-
fu2fo2mo fe2i2naga fokogo-
ife2konaga3 goi2go foige3 foifoko-
foi2foma foifofa yi4go yi3fokofofa goi2fokogo yefoi2fe2ko-foife2 yefoi foigo-
goi2fo2konama foyefofoma foyi2fokofoma ne2ga2 yefoi2foko-goi2ke2go me4 konafa-
mofokonama foifomo yefogo ige2 foigo2 fe2mo foi2foko-goii2fe2kogo yefoi2go3-
yefoife2fa konama yefoigo eifoma fofaifu2yifo-goi2fo3ko fogoifogoko-
foifofa fe2fa yimo4 fomo fomafofa fe2ko yefoigo


ifu2ma gu3 yefokoyi2go yi3fo fofaigu3 konaga3 yefoi3ge2-
foi2go3 konaga3 u3i2fofa fu2ba fu2fa yigokofe2ba-kofo-
gokonaga3 yi3foba fe2fa kofoyi2go yifofa konaba foigo-
yefoi2fofa konaga3 yefoyi2foma foi2fe2ma konaIIfokonaga2 ko-
gogu4 yi2fofa eyi2go2 konaga3 yifo2kogo gokogo-
fofe2Ii2go kogu3 fe2fagoi2fe3kogo fe2fa konaba-
ifokonaga3 fu2konaga3 yefoifo2kogo3 yefoifoko fokonaga3-
gu4 i2fu2kogo ifu3kogo fu3kogo u3ige2 foi3foko-
foyifo2kogo fu2kogo yefokonafa yifokogo fu3mo fu2konaga3-
gofe2yigo yefokonafa fu2konaga3-
foifu2 fomane3ma fu3mo ei2fokonafa-
goge4 i2ge2 foi2go i2fokogo gokonaba-
goyi2fokonaga3 foifofakogo

i3 konaga3 fu2konafa yefoi3fe2fa yi4ko2go-foi3fe3fa fe2yi3go-
goifokonaga3 foige3 foige3 yefoyi2fokonafa-mofoyi2fokogo monama-
konama3 yifokogo foinafa oi2fe2kogo fofa mo foma go-goige3 konaba-
ifoma foyi2fofa fu2i2ge2 i2fofa fe2ba ma ge3-yifo2 ifofa-
monama u foi2fo2konaga2 fe2i2go2
i2fomanama yi2fomo fu2i4foba e2u fe2ba i2fe3ma-u2yei2fe2fa kofoba-
konama mo gu4 i2fu3kogo fu2 foma ge4 e2igo-mofofa kofomogo konaba konaba-
ifogu3 i2fokofa yi2fo konama u3i2nafa mo naga3-foi2no2ba oine2fa-
fonaga3 foma fofa monafa yefoi2foma fe2ma yi2fofa mo-mo fu2 fe2fa konaga3-
ifoma fofa kofofa foma fe2fa fe2fa yi2fofa foi2fofa foi2go-goife2ma fofai2fofakogo-
naga3 foi2foma foma fofa yi2fofa fe2ma fe2mago konaba-foma fu2 fe2fa kofoba-
gofomafu2konafa fonaga3 nafa kofofa fe2oi2nama2 fofakonaba

i3yi2fo2konama ei2nafa fofafoga3 yi2go2 konama yefoi2go3 yi3no3ga3 monafa-
kone3ga2 yi3naga3 mo nama fe3ma yefokonaga3 yi3nafa2kogo goi3ne2fa-
gonama2 goi2nama foi2go ne2ba fe2kogo goi2fofakonaba fe3fanaba-
konama fe2ma e2i2go fe2fa foi2naga3 fe2kogo fe2fakogo-
fokonaga3 goinaga3 yefokonaba2 yefoi2nama ge2 monaba-
ifofa fe3fa fu2yigo yefokonaga3 i2fo3kogo-
konaga3 fu3kogo yefoyifo2fa mo naga3 yefoige2-
konaga3 fokonaba2 yefoi2naga3 goino2fa foi2nafa foba-konaga3 fokonaba2 yefoi2naga3 goino2fa
foi2nafa foba-
gokonaga3 yefoyi2go2 yefokonafa goinaba foi2nafa kogo-
i2fofa oi2naga3 eyi2go yefoi2nafa konafa yefoyigo-
fonaga3 yefoyi2go yefoi2naba-
ifofa fe2fa yifofa mo-
gofe2fa foi2nafa goyi2go2-
inama yigo2 inaba nafakonaba-
ma fofage2 goinafa kofofa fe2kofofakogo-
konaga3 fe2fa fofakonaga3

i3fokonaga3 u2i2ge2 yefoi4nama2 foi2nama goi2 e2i3naga3 yefoi2ke2go foma namafoko-
foi2nama2 foma naga3 fe2kogo goi2nama2 go yefoi2nama foi2nama fofa goi2nama nama nafa-
goi2nama3 fe2fa ei2go foi2nama ei2go ke2go yefoi2nama foi2naga3 eyi2go monaga3-
konaga3 foma fomafofa ne2ma nama i2naga3 foi2ke2 goi2nama fokonaga3 ke2fofanaga3-
go foma naga3 foi2nafa fe2fa i2fe2go i3eike2go fooi2naga3 foi2namafoma fofai2naba-
ife2konaga3 fu2 i2ko2go i2ko2go foi2fofa ke2go
ike3nama ne3fa i2ko2go fe2kogo i2ku2go yefoiko3go yefoi2ke2go fofai2nama konaba-
koge2i2go2 ne2ma e2i2yenama fokonamayenafa fomo4 yi3fo2kogo yefoi2fo3kogo-
konaga2 e2i2go konama eyi2go konafa yefoi2fo fai2ko3go konama i2naga3 kogo i2naba-
konama2 foi2nafa yefoi2nama foma fomanama fonama fokonaga3 foi2go3 konamake2fofa
fafe2ma ge3 i2ko3go kogo yefoi2nafa foi2naka konafa ku2go foinafa foinafakonaga-
fonaga2 yi2go kofa foga4 konaga3 foi2naga3 e2fanafa yefoi2naga3 foi2naga2 ma-
fake2nafa foyi2go konaga3 foifofa foinama nu2ma naga2

i2ke4ke2go foko2naga2 eyi2go-foifofa konaga3 kofokogoko-
foko4 goigo3 foi2ko3go yefonaga3-i2fo2kogo goi2mo3naga-
yefoi2go4 fomo naga2 yefofofa nafa ke3go-monama naga3 fofa i2nama naba-
foi2nama eyi2kogo fe3kogo i2go3 i4namanafa-foke3go yefoi2naga2 fokogo-
yega4i2naga3 ne2ga3 goi2naga2 goi2naga fokogo-konaga3 ke3go inafanaba-
goi2naga3 konaga3 goi2nama2 e2i2go konaga3 go
foi2ke2 naga2 fe3i2go foma naga2-ei2ko3go i3ne2fa namanafakogo konamago-
inamae ke3go yefoi2naga3 foi2nama yefofa-foinama fe2yinama inafafokogo foi2namago-
goi2goi2go yefoi2ge2 foi2nafa ge3 foma-foma naga3 foi2naga3 goi2naga2 foinai2go-
fonaga3 fofa mo naga3foi2naga3 foi2go-goinaga3 foinama goi2nafa goi2nama fofa-
goi2naga3 fe3nama e4i2go fofakogo-naga3 foi2nafa fofaige2 foma go fomanaga2-
konaga3 nama e2i2go fofai2o3ge2 mofa-nama naga3 konaga3 foinaba-



foqne2fa eme2igo foigo mo2ko2go ge2 gofe2yi3go fe2ma,ge2 ge2
fe2i2ge3 ne2fa fe2fago i2fomage2 ge2i2go2 fe2igo fu2i2naga3-
fofage3 fe2i2fe2fa ge3 i2go3 yefoi2(o3|e)go fe2i2go3 fe2i2mogo-
yefoife2ma fe2ma fe2i2foma ei2foma,ge2    foi2nama ke2go-
fe2fe2ma fe2 fe2konafago konaga3-
goi2e[nafo],kogo koge3 i2o[moo]go konaga3,go-
fu2,i2fe2fa,foife2ma fe2i2go konafa-
mofe2fa fe2go fe2i2go e3yi2fokogo

ife2i2go i2fe2fa fu2fa fe2i,ge3ife2fa-
goife2ma foige2 fe2i2,goi,ge3 ma,foi2naga3-
gu2i2ge4 konaga3 yifofa fe2mo fe2i2foma-
u fe2 i2ge3 yefoi2foi2ge2-
foi2ge2 fe2i2fe3 i2ne2fa-
mofe2fa fe2ifofa yefoige2-
ife2 ife2fa fe2fa yigo-
yefoige2 fe2kogo yifoma ge3 i2fe2ma,bo-
fe2i2go3 yefoi2ge4 moge3 konaga3,kogo-
fu2 fe2i2ge2 i2fe2nama    mofoifokonaga-
foige3 i2fo2fa konaga3

i2fe3i fu2fa ge3 yefoi2foga3 fu2ma yefoife3fa fe2mafoma-
fu2kogu3 yefoige3 yefoigo3 konaga3 yefoigo3 yinama-
foge3 fe2fa fe2fa yefoige3 konaga3 fe2igo4 konafa-
moge2 ige3 konaga3 kogo3 inaka-konaga2-
yefoimo4 ui2foge4 monaga3-
fe2i2fe2fa fe2ma yi2foI
i2fe2fage2 oi2fe2fa fu2fa fe2fa foige2 ko-
goi2fe2ma fe2i2ge2 yefoi2fe2 ige4 i2fofa-
fu2ife2i fe2ife2 ife2inaga3 foi2go-
fofai2ge2 i2fu2 gu2 goifofa fe2ifoma gokogo-
fe2ige3 i2fo3fa ge3 i2fe2fa ine2ga2-
yefoi2ge3 yigo3 fai2go3 i2ge4 inaga2-
goi2foma naga3 fe2mafofa fu2fu2fa konaga3-
fe2fa fe3i2fe2fa fe2fa fe2i2 fe2ifoma-
foife2fa fe2fa fe2fa konaga3 fe2inaga3-
mofoi2fe2fa fe2fa fe2fa konaga3

i3fofo3yi2go2 fokonaga2 fe3i3 fu3kogo fu2yi4go2 kogo u3i3 fu3kogo fokonaba-
konama3 nama2 e2igo fe3 yi2go fe2yi2go fe3igo2 ui2ge3 mo fokonaga3 gu3-
yefoi2fo3kogo fe3i2go yefoi2fo2kogo gu4 foi2fo2kogo fe3kogo fe4kogo e3i2fo2kogo-
kofo3mo fe3yigo fe3kogo yefoifo3kogo foyifokogo foi2fo3kogo eifo2kogo fe3kogo mo-
yefoi2fo3 konaga3 fe4konaba
ife3konafa foi2naba eyi2go2 foi2ke2go kofoyifo foi3ge3 kogo i2ko2naga3 foi4fomanaba-
konama3 ku4go yefoi2ko3go e2igo2-foifo3ko u3i2go2 iko2go foi2nafakobo-
inama2 ku4go foke3go yi2ko3go-foi2ge2 ke3go konafa yefoi2ko2naba-
fokonama2 fu4 yi2go monama nafa konaIIkago-koe2yi2go2 konaga3 ke3go yiko2go-
yefooige3 i2ko2go ku3naga3-mofe3mo goi2fo2mo nayigo2 iyi4go-
konako2go yigo3 yi3ko2naba

yi3go i4e2yi4go kogo koe2i3naga2 uoigo yefoi3go i4fofa ei3kogo-
konaga3 u3i2,fa,fokogo goifo2 yefoi3[moma*] nama2 fe3io3[fogo] konafa[fona]ba-
goinafa fe3i,ui2go go [*mo]namo fe3kogo
ifoko3go foifoma,ku3go goigo3 fu3kogo yefoi2ku2 goi4ge3-
koku3go foi2fo2kogo yefoi2kouyi2go fe2i2go fe2i2fo2kogo foi2o,gokogo-
yefo goige3 uyi2oyi3go goi2ke3go ke3go uyi2kogo

manamago
monafamo
yefoga
konamago
goi2fo2fa
konafago
monafai4
i4namago
yefoimo2go
goi2nafago
kogofago
monaga3
yefoi2nafa
yefofamona
manamanafa

go
fo
mo
u
go
ko
fo
i4
?
n
nama2
ko
u
go
i4
i4
go
fo
ko
mo
i
o
?
n
i
fo
?
fa
ma
i
fo
n
i3
ko

foife3 konaga3 eigo goi2me2e2ba

i3konaga3 foiko3go foi3ke3go e2i4efa2 ku2kogo goi3me3 fo3fai3??ko foi2ko2nafamo-
mofoIma u3i2go2 yefoi2ko3nama foi2nafa foi2ko2go yefoi2nafa foi2ko2go yefoi2ku2-
goi2ku3go yi2kogo yefoi2mo3 fe4 foi2fe2 kogo e2i2go2 ke3go eyi2go-
ku2go yefoiko2go ke2go ke3go yefoiko2go eyi3fo2ma goi2nakogo konama ??igo2 i2?nama-
??i2fo3kogo yefoi2fo2kogo yefoi2fo2kogo yefoi2nama u3i2go yefoi2fo3kogo foi2ko2go i2fokonamago-
goi2fo3kogo fe2oi2go3 foi2fo2kogo e2i2fo2kogo yefoi2fogo2 konai2go o3yifo mafoinaga3-
kofu3? foi2naga3 fe3konaga3
ifoyi3go3 kofofa i2fe2kogo yefoi2fo2kogo yefoi2gu2 yefoi3naga3 nama4?i2fokonamo foi2nako-
??fofa kogoga3 konafa i2na ui2go yeo2go u2i2oma2 fe2igo kooi2 oi2go3 mu2go oi2fofa-
?foe2i2 eyigo konafanafake3go e2i3namo fu3ko fu2i2nama2 e2i2ge2 konamoko-
fu2ma fu3konafa fu2fakogo yefoi2ke3go yefoi3ge2 yefoigo,ke3go mame3 i2namakogo-
yefoi2e? ?foi2nama3 e2i2go konafago konama3 konafa ku3go ke3go fai2nama,ko2 foi2ko2go-
fofa e4i2go konama3 ei2go nanfoma nai2namogu2 konaga3
i3fe2i3 fu2ifomokonaga3 yefoinama,foinafafoma i3ke3nama ke3go konama fokonama2 foi3namanaka-
konafae4i2go fu3fa konama2fokogo e2ige2 ku3 foi2ogu2 fa,fafoma fu3ma fe3fa-
kofoma ku3go foi2nama ke3go i2fe3kogo ennama konafago i3ke2nama fe3manafafo mago-
fu2ma u2i2fo3kogo konafaku3go yefoi2foma nafa mu3
i3fu3kogo yi3fofa fu2i3fofa foi2fo2kogo yefoi2nafakogo goinamafokogo fu2kogo ku3go i2nama2-
monama2,fofa konaga3 konaga3 konafa kofofa,fe3kogo konama2,nafago konama2nafa kofofanama
gu2,kofoma-
ifogu3 yefoi2nafakogo foi2go fofa i2e4i2go yefoi2go konamago foi2mo3 fofago
ifokogo4 i2fo2kogo ke2go i2fo2kogo ku3go u2i2o3i3go ke2go fu3fa fu2fa i2fokogo konafago-
monama3 fe3fa i2nafa fu3kogo eyiko2go konafa fu2ma yefoi2fo2kogo fe2kogo i2ofe2kogo-
maku3go foio3?go goi2fo3kogo fu3yigo fofa,fako,faku3go fe2igo3 e2i2go2 ge3-
gofu4ko yefoifo3ko yefoifofa,yefoi2go eyi2go2 gu3 kofe3fa e2i2go fe3 koma4ma-
gokonaga3 fu2kogo foiko4go foifo2ge3 ifofake3go fafu3kogo yefoi2go,konaga3 foinaka-
ife3 fu3ma foifo2kogo fai3me4fofa,nama,nafai2go2 foigo2 faifu2fago gu3 ma,fofa-
konaga3 fu3fa yefoyi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go fage3 yefoi2nafago uyi2go yefoinafa foike2go-
yefoi2go2 nama fofai2fo2fa yefoi2nafa fu3i2go goi2ke2go fe2kogo fu3kogo yefoi2go nakogo-
kofoma naga3 fu4fa faku3go fake3go ke4go uoifofa konafafofa fafokonaga3-
fu3fa foi2go3 fakonaga3 foi2nafake3go,i3ke3go i2fokogo yefoike3go yi3ko2go-
konaga3 gu3 yefoifo2fago managa3 ku4go uyigo oi2fofa yefoi2fofa koi2nama-
fage3 fai2ko3go e2igo u2i2nafago uyi2nama



ifo3konaga3 gu3 oi3naga2fokogo fomonaga3 goinafogo2 gu3 oi3naga3 fo nama3-
konama3 foi2fo2kogo yefooi2ge3 monama naoiko3go foigo3 i2go3 i2fo2 i2fo3ko**-
gofe3mo fo ka fo4ma naga3 foi2mo2foo nama,naka uge2 kogo*naga3 konaka-
fe3konaga3 naoi2go3 monama naga2 mofonama ge4 konaga2 yigo2

mofonaga2nafa ku2go fe2i2fo2kogo goi2ko3nafa fofa foifo2konaga3 fe2yiko2go foi eifo2i2naga3
+ fe2iko3go foifoma oi3ge2 ei3ma3 nama u4ma *ko3go mofooiko3 *yige2 mofoo*i2fo2i go
+ fe2ifo2i2go fe2yi2go foi2mo3 mofoma naga3 konamanaka moko3ma2 ke2nama konama
konamake2go
+ konamakonamanama foinama konama foi2namanama


konama2 nafa fe3fa konafa fooi2naga3 mofofa konaga3 o3imo3 monaga3 goi2fo2mo * ge2foifokonaga3 e2ikago
+ foinama konama3 nama e2*nama foi2ko3go foiIfokonaga3 goemago e2i2go2 foi kofofa nafa fe3ma
+ foi2fo2ma foga3 e4i2go namago foi2fo2i2ko2ma foge3 ege3 fe2fa konama2 konaga2 fe2
+konama nafakogo


naofe3ma yefoIi2go3 foifo3mo fe3yigo2 foifo2ke3go foi2foko2nama konamanamanafa foi2fo2manama
+ mofoigo2 konama2 goigo3 foifo2 mo foimo3 foifo2 foigo4 fu3i2go3 foifo2konafa fe2i2ko3 monama
+ naga2 foifo i2ko3nama koo3oigo foi2o3 ifo2koga3 e2ige2 konama2 ei2namanaka


foinafakogo
foifoi2go
mogo3nama
goi2namo namogo
mofomonaga2ma
foigo3 konama
goifokonama3
fu3manaka
goi2fo3kogo
foi2fo2fa monafa
foi2go3 monama
konafanamago

ifofa foma foma2 naka foifofago no2ma2 ka
konaga3 inamokonaga3 foma foi2foma


inafofa konaIka manai2nama konaka
mofo*naga2 yi3go mofofanafa konafago
mofonaga3 kofofanaka

mofofago foi2fomanako

foi2gokomofo2ka foo3i3fonafago

fo e3i2nama2 foi2fofaga2ka
yefoi2fonaga3 foyi2go2
kofe4ma foe2i3nafanaga2

oi2go4 *oi2ko3go

fofo2fanafamo2 nama2nama

foga2 goi2nafago ne2ma
foi2nama nafaoi fofai2nafo

foi2e*moeka

fu2i2ge2 eigo fe2igo3 yi3fofa fe3ma foi3fe4fa foinama fe2yigo3 foi2fe2nafa-
ifome2go foiefa yefoi2ko4go ge4 e2oigo goifo2kogo moi3foma fe3ifomage3 fe2ko-
goi2foma,gu3 yefoge4 fe2i2nafa-
kofe2ma foi2na3  foi2go3 manama oyi2no2ma konamanaka


goi2go
?namago
ei2ge2i2fofago

foi2fokonafago
fokoe3yigo

foife3kogo
foifonafago
fe2yi2go
foyigo
naife2kogo

foimogo2
foigokogo
foi2no2ma
yi3foyi3go
foigoime2

foigoma
fofafoma
foyi2go
foi3fe3ma
foike2fo
foifofa

foifoma
foga4nama
foi2fofakogo
foi2ke2go
ifofo3koyigo


foyi3go
foi2fo3konafa
foi2mofoma
fomakonaga3
foifoke3go
kofofake3go
foi2go foi2ke2go foi2namakogo ye?manama fofakogo

ifo3kogo uyigo2 i3fu3kogo fu2yigo goi2fo2go ku2go fu2i goige2
kone2ga3 gu3 koke4go yefoi2go3 u2i2go2 konafa,kogo u2oigo2 konafakogo 
yema4go4 u2i2go2 u2i2go2 mo nafagu3 yigo2 uifo2kogo yefoifo3kogo konaba
foi2go3 fu3go i2fo2fa fa2e2oigo foi2fo2,kogo gu3 yema4i2ofa2 fe2fa e2i2fokogo
mofe3mo moo3i2go2 foi2ofa2 fe2kogofoi2fo2mo fe3 monafama3 fonafababa 
foigo2 konafama3
foifomogo2 monamago
gomu3namo,nama,gu2
moma4yima e2igo
foifo2gomo fomanamanafago
goifo2kogo e2igo2
foife2mo nafanabage2
foike2go e2inafa
nakonama2ke2go naga3
goke3nafa konaga3
fa2i2o4i3fofa gogoi3ge2
fe2igo3 konamama4

mu2kogo konafafe2mo foi2fo[moma] e2i2go foimo3 foinamo foigo2kogo foi2ofe2go
goifo2kogo ne3kogo e3yigo3 foigoke2go foigo3
yi3fo3kogo foiofa2 ei2go2 konaga3 ge3 konama3 foigo3mo monama foyi2go3
koma4mage2 foi2efa2 yefoi2o3ge2 konafa ge2 fe2i2go3 monamago foi2no2konaga3 goi2fo3kogo
foifokofofa
foi3no3fakoba
*fonama goi2fo2fa konamafofa konafago-
monafaga3 yi2go fofaoi2go3,kogo-
goi2fo2fa yio3i3ge2,konama

e*kogo o4i3ge2 koga3kogo fu2ko i2fe3fago fe2ifo2fa fu2fa,moge3 fu2konaga3 e2iku3go foifu2yefooifomogo4-
ne3i2fe3fa gu4yeoigo gu4 foife2fa ne2ko gu4 konaga3 fu3kogo yefoi2fofa naga3 fe2ma fe3igo foigo
* fe2inama moma fe2ma e2i2go konaga3 konama naga3  goifogo ifofae4ine2fa,monaka-
*e** yefooi2go3 ge2kogo

foi2fomogo foi2ge2 foi2fofa fe2oi2go2 foi2fo2go4 fofa goi2foga2 foinaga2foma fomafofa namai2go4fofai2fo3fago goi2fo3fa
foi2go foifofa o3ma fe2igo ke3nama foiko2go monama fooi2naga3 foifo2fa konama fe3 konama
yefofo3i2naga3
foi2ge3 konafa foo3i2go *i2ma gonai2Ika monafa nago goi2foo3ma goigo kogo fago fe2kogo
foinafanafanama foigo
konama yefoinago foigo2 ge3 i2nakonama konama fu3kogo u3ma konaga3 foifo3nafago
foi*fomonafa fofa
foi2fofa fomo2fo* ifofa fe2fa foigo3 e3i2o*go2 foi2ge2 yefoi2egu2 kofe2fa eu2i2 
goe*fo kogo yefoi2nafa foie* 
yefoifo2kogo foi2go3 e2i2go2 e2i2go2 foi2nafafokogo ke3go 
fu2oi2go2 u3i2go foi2fofage3 foi2fofabafoba
foi2fo2fa fe3kogo yefokoi2go3 foe2i2go fe2kogo foike2go foifo foifo* 
nafa ke2nafa moe2i2fofa foi2ko3go 
fofe3fa yefogo3,i2fo2kogo fe3i2go foi2ge2 fe2ko* igo foieba 
gokonaga2fa fofa ne2i2 foi2ge2ko 
oge3 e2i2ge2 koi2o4fa e2i2go2 inai2oge3 konaga3 
foimanafa
foi2fe3 konama foigo2 goi2go3 ige2 foifu3 foifo2igo2 gu3 u2yi foi3fe3fa konama
+ konaigo3 monafa fokogo fe2igo3 fe2oiko3go foifo2ifo2ifu2 goifo2ma nafanaga2 fu3konafago oi2fo
+ naga3 fe2fai2nafa fe2ino2ma foino2kogo fe2fanaga3 foifo4nafa fofa fu4ma foi2nago fe2fa kogo
+ foi2o3ma fe2ma fofana* foinaga3 foifo3kogo mofomo ifokonaga3 fe2i2naga2 foinafanafa foi2ne2ba
namanafa foina* ke3naga2fo foigo3 konama ugo4 konaga3 e2fanafago foifo2kogo fe2ifofa ke3go
+ foino2igo2 foifo4manama nafafokogo konama3 foiko3nama foigo3 ige2 konafanafa fe3faigo2foiko3go
+ u2oigo mo foifo3fa goi2fo3mo gu3 foi2fo2ma nafaga2manafafoma konaga2fanabakogo foinama
naba
foinafa kofanago foifo2nafa konafa nafakogo foinaga3 nama foigo3 ne2fa fo yefoino3fa nama nafa
foinaga3 nafa ifo2konaga3 
+ foifo3 yigo2 foifo3mo foifo2mo naga3 fa**ka
foigo *kogo
foigo nago
foi2nafago
foifokogo
foigofako
foinafakonama
foi2fokogo
foi3gomonaka
e2i2go2
foinafago
foinafa namanama
foinafakogo
foi2fo2fago
foi2gokogo
foi2o3ma
foinafanakoka
foi2namago
foinama
foigo

goi2fofanaga3
foinama naka
foinafanafa
foinafanama
foinafanaka
kofofanamanaka
foi2namanaka
foifo2monafa
monafafofamo
foi2nafakonafa
fou2* i3namanama foifo3konaga3 u2 naigo3 konaga3 foifo2i2go3 konafa nafa foigo3 igo3 kogo foige2
+ i2go3 nafafokogo ne3fa foinama foinaba foino2konama ei3ge2 foi3nama nafa naga3
+ foifo2fu2ma foi2fo2konafago foigo3 igo4 foigo3 i2o3*ma foma namafofa fe3famo foina?i2nafago
foi2fofa fu4ma ne2fa foifo3mo nafa u3i2go foi2nafanama nama foi2fo2,konama foigo foifo i2naga3 ge3ifofa
+ foi2ema eifoma fe3ma u2i3fe2fa foifoma fu3 fu2i3fe2 nama nafago foi2go2
+ ge4 foinafa nafa u?kogo foinafago

i2nafa foi2go3 foi2fo2monama foinaga3 ei2no3fa foi2nafa e3i2naga3 foi2naga3 foi2fu2ma konama foigo3
ne2ma fomafofa
ei2nafago
foi2fofanama
foife2kogo
fofayi3go
foinaga3
foi2namanaga3
?i2nama namanafago
foi3nafanama naba koga3
foi3nafafomanama
foi3naoi3foba
foinafafokogo
foinafanaga3
foinama fu2ma
fu2faku2go

i4ke3goi2namago foi2go3 yefoi2nama gu2i2ke3go yefoi2nama ku3go-
konaga2 gu3 fago mofu3fa yefofake3go ke3goi2nama e2i2ko3go manama-
yefoi2naga2 ne2ba foi2ge3 yego2 i2oga3 u3i2go fainaga2 fofai2nama foma-
konayi2go fai2nabafo goi2go3 fagu3 i2nafa kogo gu3 foi2 gu3 yefoi2ko3go-
gu3i2nama gu3 yi2go2 ma naga2 fofa fofaku4go yefomago3 yefoi2go-
i3ge3i2no3ma fofai2go konama foi2go2 yefoi2naga2 eyigo yefoi2ko3go yefoi2go-
i3ke3go yefoi2ku2go goinaga2 ke3go yefoi2nama ge2 fafofa ke3go yefoi2go-
monamage3 yefoinamakogo kou2yi2go yefoi2naga2 eyi2go faku3go foi2ko3go-
yefoi2ke2go e2igo2 fafo yefoi2ko2go yefoi2naga e4i2go2 yefoi2nai3 fofake3go monafa-
kofu2ma yefoinama ke2go gu3 yefoi2naga2 o*yi2gokogo naigo2 iko2go fake3go-
yefoi2o*kogo yefoi2nama2 fofago yefoi2ko3go kogo yefoi2nafa foi2nama ku3go kofoma e3i2naba-
mou2yi2go yefoi2nafa fofago gu3 ma fofa ge4 gu3 kogo faku3go yefoi2go-
i3ke3go i2ko3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2naga2 fofaku3go-
monaga2 fofa i2*gu2 yefoi2naga2kogo fofaku3go yefoi2naga2 e2i2go2 yefoi2naga2 foinama nafago-
monaga2 yefoi2naga2 yefofai2fo3fago monaga3 ke3go mofofa foma ke3go foi2ke2go yefoi2go-
koku3go yefoi2nama ku4go fae fu2i2naga2 e* foi2ku3go yefoi2oga3 ke3go-
i3ke3nama u2i3ge2 fake3namago konafa ne2fa gu2i2fofa ku3go yefoi2naba-
mofofa ku4go yefofa ku3go yefofa foinaga2 no3ma monama fofago-
yefoi2ku3go yefofagu3 yefoi2go gu3 yigo2 yefoi2naga2 nama-
magogu3 yefoma *go3 fage3 fafo gokonaga2 gu3 yefoi2naga2-
foyefoi2naga2 ge3yeyimogo foma gou2ma3 fofa fafoma naba-
fokonama *go2 yefoi2naga2 ke3go fomau2* i2ma3 ke3go monama-
i3ge3 i2gu3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2nafa mogu3 yefoko ke3go yefoi2naba-
yefoi2naga2 fofai2go3 yefofai2namago monaga2 e3yigo fafoma fofa-
monaga2 uyi2ofa yefoi2ko3go gu2kogo yefoi2ko3go fake3go manaba-
konaga2 fofa fu3fa konaga2 fofa yefofago kona nakogo-
i3konafafu2ma uifofa yefoigo i3nu2ga ku3go foi2nafakogo konama foinama foiko2go kogo mafofa-
ike3go i3ke3go yefoi2go3 mafofa fofakonama2 u3yigo yefofa fa ke4go yefoi2ko3go fafofake3go-
konaga2 ei2nafa kogo fafofai2naga3 fofa foi2ko3go yefofa *naga2 fofage3 yefoi2ko3go ke3go
yefoinaga-
yefokonaga2 e4i2go yefoi2go2 yefoi2naga2 e2i2go yefoi2nafa konaga2 ke3go foi2nafafofa ku3go
foi2namafofafoba-
koku3go yefoi2go2 eyi2go yefoi2nama ke3go ge3 yefoi2o* yefoi2ko2go konafakogo-
i3fofagu2 konafa ku3go yefoi2naga2 konama emakogo *ko2go yefoinama ku3go fakogo-
yefoi2go3 faku3goyenafa ke3go yefoi2naga2 eyiko2go faiko2go konamafoba-
mofofai2ko2go foi2nafa konama foigo foinama foinama fofa i2naga2 fofaiko2go-
ye i2naga2 u2oigo yefoi2naga2 konama konama ku3go yefoi2ko2 fofakogo-
mafofa i2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2* foi2nama foinama konama konamakogo-
yefoi2ko2go kogo u2oigo yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko4go fafofa-
yefoiko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go fakogo-
goku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go fofai2ko3go foigo2 i2fofakogo-
kooma2 ku3go yefoi2naga2 ku3go konafa i2ko3go maku3go-
mofoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go foiko3go yefoi2go kogoi2ko3go mogo-
koku3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoigo3 yefoiko3go kofoma-
goku3go e3i2nama fofakogo yefoi2naga2 ei2nama foinama fofakogo-
koke3go managa2 foi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go foiko2go foi2fofakogo foinama foiba3 fofanama2 ko3nama
kogo-
moku3go uyi2go yefoi2go2 foi2ko2go mafomafofa foigo foiko2go yefoiko2go foiko2go foi2naga3-
yefoi2go2 yefoi2ko2go fu3fa yefoi2ko2go kooga3 ku3go foifofake3go fofafoma-

i3ke3nama foi3ke3go yefoi2ko2go foi3ke3go yefoi3kogo konaga2 e2inama eyi4go2 yefoinaba mo-
mofoma u3i2go yefoi2naga2 foi2nafa konafa fofake3go konaga3 eyi2go2 fai2nama eyi2go2 gafoba fa-
kofa u3i2go2 i2naga2 fofage3 yefoi2naga2 konafagomako kofaku3go yefoiko3go yiko2go fafofago fa-
yefoi2ke2go yefoi2nafa konafa fofa e2igo fake2go uke2go ke3 foiko2go yefoiko2go foima3 *-
yefoi2ko3 ke3goi2go foi2ko2go fake3go konama kogo koke3go konama fofake3go foiko2go
yefoi2fomo-
yefoi2ko2go magu3 yefofa ge3 fofa ge3 i2ko3 mofofa i2go2 kogoi2ko2go yefoi2nafa konama fago-
fone3ga2 ke4go yefoi2nafa konaga2 u3i2go yefoi2go moku3go iko2go foiko2go iko2go inamanafa-
yefofa u2yi2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2nafago mofomake3go yefoi2go fofauigo yefoi2gokogo-
monafa fofa fofanaga2 fofai2go2 fofaku3 yefoi2nafago yefoi2nama ke3go yefoi2naga2 igo
faku2goyefo-
fokoke3go yefofaku2go fu2i2ku2go yefoi2naga2 fomo ku3go yefofafofa i2ko3go yefoi2nafaba-
monafa ku3go goi2naga2 yefoi2naga2 u2yi2go fako nu2ga3 yi2go faku3go-
ifofafu3ma yefoi2nafa konama fofai2ko2 fomafofa i2ge3 foinaga2 fofage3 foi2nama e2i2go koko2go
i2ko2go-
yefoyefoi2go3 fofai2na yefofaku4go yefoi2fo2ma ku4go yefoi2nafa foma ge3 yefoi2nama fofa naga3-
kofaku3go yefoi2naga2 konafa yefofa yefofa fofa ku4go ge4 ko fa fofa gu4 yefoi2naga2 fofafofa-
monafa ku3go yefoi2naga2 gu3 yefoga2 fofagu3 fofa gu3 yefoi2go yefofa ge4 efa foma fu3fafo-
fofa gu4 yefofagu3 yefoi2naga2 foi2naga3 e2ma2foma-
i3foi2naga2 foi2ko3go foma me3go mofofagu3 yefoi2go3 yefoiko2go fofai2ko2go ge3inafa kogo yefofa-
fofamu4 fofa u2yi2go yefoi2naga2 fofa ke3go yefofa ke3go yefofai2go3 yefofake3go ne3fago-
gogu3 yefoi2nama fofake3go yefoma foga3 foi2ko3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2go3 koigo2 yefoi2go kogo-
goge3 yefoinaga2 u2yi2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go fau2yi2go yefoi2naga2 konafa ifofa fofake3go-
yefoi2naga2 fofau2*go yefoi2naga2 konama fofa ku3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoinama fofaku3go
fofakogo-
yefoi2no2ma ke3go uyi2go kofofa goke4go monaga2fo fofa e2 kogo yefoi2nama foinama konafa
konaga3-
i3foma gu3 foi2naga2 ke3go yefofafu3fa fofake3go-
foinafa foi3nafa foi2go3 fafofa fofafofa i2fofai2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go fai3ke2go yefoike2go
fafofa-
goiko2go foi2gu3 yefofai2go3 fako3go mofoga3 fofa foiko3go-
goi2o3ge2 yefoi2ko3go konaga3 fofa fofagu4 yefofago-
foiko2go foigo3 yefofage3 yefoi2go2 fofakogo fofago fago-
 iko2go *gu3 yefofa kogo yefoi2nama gu3 fakogo-
yefoiko2go yefoi2nafa konaga2 konaga2 foyefoi2go konaga3-
foi2ko2go yeoi2goiko2nama fofago foi2nafa ku4go yefoiko3go yefoi2go3fago-
monafake3go mofofai2ko2go goi2ko3go yefoi2naga2 foinaga2 uoigo-
yefoi2ko3go yefoi2fofa fofai2fofa foyigo2 ku3go foifofa e2yi2go fakogo-
foi2ogu3 fofai2ko2go fofai2ko2go yefofage3-
yefoi2go2 fofake3go foigo2 fomafofa-

i3foife2i2nama eyi3kogo foi3ku2go yefofai3 eyi3go eyi3kogo foi3gu3 yefoi4gu2 foi3ke2go monaga2namogo-
koku3go yefoikokogonama yinama e2i3 no2ga2 foi2naga2 yefoi2fo2ma ku3go yefofa foga2 nu3fama
yefoi2go3-
gogu3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2go2 yefoi2ko3 foi2ko2go ui2go yefoiko2go foi2ko2go fu2fa yefoigo fofake3go
naga3go-
mo yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go3 foma nama foma ei2namafofa foigo2 yefoi2ko2go fai2ko2go ke2go
yefoi2ke2go yefoi2nafa ke2naba-
mofofako4go yefoi2ko3go yefoi3ke3go yefoi2go3 i2fofa ku3go yefoi2ko2go gu4 foi2o3ma nafa nafa
ke3naga2kona-
ko yefonaga3 me3 foi2ko3nafa yefoi2ko2 yefoi2go3 ku3go ge3 fai2ko3go foi2go2 konama naga3e3i2naga2 fofakogo-
ku3 nafau2i4go2 managa2 eyi3ko2go naga2 fofai2go3 fai2nama naga2 foigo3 fai2naga2 ke3go konama
konafago-
ye yefoiko2ku3go yefomanaga2 foiko3go ke3go fofa ke2go managa4 e3i2naga2 konaga2 eyi2go monafa
foigo-
mafofaku3go yefofofayeyiko3 ku2goyena fofai2go3 konaga2 monaga3 monama ku3go yefoi2fo2ma
foi2ko3go-
yefoi2ko3go e3yigo e2yi2go2 foi2fofa foi2naga3 u2yi2go2 fai2ko3go foigo2 konafa goi2nafa ke3go
monama-
mo fe2maku3go yefoi2ko2 foi2mo3 nafa nai2 naga3 nama naga2 eyi2ko3 fake3go ku3go yefofanama2ke3go-
yefoimo2 ke3go uyi2go yefoi2go3 foi2go3 i2naga2 e2yi2go yefoi2ko3go yefoigo2 yefoinaga2 e2i2no2ga-
ge3 eyi2 fu3yego4 fe2fa fai2naga2 ku3go yefoi2ko3go foi2naga2 ke3go foi2ko3 yefoi2nafafomafo-
fo koke4go yefofage3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2go3 ke3go yefoi2nama ku3go ku3go faku3go yefofake3go
foiko2gofa-
koku3go yefoke3go fake3go yefoi2go2 yefofage3 yefoinaga2 eyi2go uyi2go fane2ma foi2nama
nafake2go-
yefoi2me2kogo foi2go3 fake3go yefo fofanaga2 foi ku3go yefoinafago konama monaga2 ku3go
fofako4-
fa ku4go yefoi2ko2go ke3go ke3go yefoi2naga2 eyi2go fofage2 fanaga2 ku3go fofanaga2 ke3go
yefoi2go2-
konafaku3go yefofaku4go yefoi2nafakogo e2i3go konaga2 nafa fofafoma fofanaga2 ke3go u3yigo
yefoi2nafo fafoma-
yenafafoga2 ge3 yefoi2go3 fake3go eyi2go ge3i2go ge3 yefofanafa fai2fage3 fake3go ge3 fafanama3go-
ku3nafa gu3 yefoi2go2 yefofake3go yefofanaga2 naga2 ge3 yefoi2naga3 foi2naga2 ke4go fage3 fafofago
kogo-
i2 mafoga2 gu4 e3ma2 fofa naga3 fe2konaga3 yefoi2naga3 ge3 yefoi2nafage3 konafake2go konafa
foinafa-
yefoi2nama ku3go ku3go yefoi2nama ku3go yefoi2naga2 konama gu3 fauyigo foi2nama foi2naga2gokonaga3go-
konamage3 fe3fage3 uyigo fe3go yefo yefoi2go2 konafanaga3 u3i2go yefoi2naga2 fofai2go monaga2nago-
i2 fe3ma naga2 foi2naga3 konaga2 ge3 konafaku3go yefoi2naga3 ne3fa gu2 ke3go i2naga2 ke3go gu2-
yefoi2ko2go fai2go2 i2nafa ku3go yefoi3ge3 yefofa i3ke3go foi2ge2 eyi2go gu3 fafofa i2fofa gu4kona*-
ne3ma gu3 yefofofai2nafa ku3go ku3go gu3 ku3go fofafage2 ufae2ma uyigo monaga2 fofago-
monaga2 ku3go fagu3 yefoi2nafa eyigo foi2fo2fafoma fe3fa foinama ke3go yefofa eyigo eyi2go-
yefoi2nafa ku3go fu3fa fe3fa nafagu2 fe2fa ke2go inafafoma fofa nafa foma fe2fa foi2no2ma nama *
fofago-
mo foigo3 fage3 ge3 fofafu3fa yefoi2nafa ne2fa-
i3fofanafake2go i3ku3go foi3ke3go yefoi2nama goi2fu3fa yefoi2ko3go foigo faku3 ei3ku4go goinafa-
yefofage3 uyi2go yefoi2go2 fage2 foi3ge3 konaga2 ku2go yefoi2ko2nama fofake2go mofoi2 foigo kogo
fake3go-
monaga2 nafa foi2ko2go fage4 yefoi2go2 uyi2go foiko2go yefoi2nafa gu3 yefoi2go konaga2 ke3go
yefoi2ke2gofa-
konaga2 ge3 fau konaga3 ge3-
mofoma gu3 yefoi2go2 yefoi2nama fu4fakogo fe2fa fofago ne2fago fafofa ke2go-
i3fofako3namanaga uyi2go yefoigo goi2nama nafafofa fai2naga3 fofaku3go foinaga2 foi2nama
foi3nama i2fofai3go-
goku3go yefo foma foi2naga2 gu3 yefoi2naga3 foi2ko3go yefoge2 fomo naga2 gu4 eyi2go-
konaga2 nu3ma foi2ko2go foiko2go foi2ko2go fake3go ke3go foi2nama ke3go foinamanaga2-
konaga2 eyi2go fomanaga3 gu4 yefoyi2go2 fofake2nama gu4 foiko2go fofanaga2 foi2go-
monaga3 uyi2go fai2ko3go yefoi2go foi2naga2 goinaga2 foiko3go foi2ko2goma ku3go yefoi2nafa-
monaga3 fofanaga3 foi2go fu2fa monaga2 foi2go fai2nama ke3go fai2nama nafa fafomanafa-
i4ke3go bo monafa kofofa ku2go fofai2ko2go yefoi2naga3 foinafa fofomago-
yei2foma ku3go gu3 i2ko3go monafa managa3 fa2i3ke2go konama ke3go yefoi3ke3go mafomafofa-
fofaku4 yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go fai2ko2go faku4go foi2nama ku3go foinaga2-
monaga3 yefofa ku3go fofa ke3foma ne2fa ku3 yefoiko3go koku2go foi2nafa ke3gofa-
konafa foma ke3go yefofanaga3 foi2ko2nafa fofake3go ke2fofa fofake3go fe2fago naga3go-
monaga2 gu4 foma foma nafa mofofagu3 foi2ko3go fakonaga3 e3yigo2 foi2ko2nafafoma-
foi2naga3 fofa ke3go yefoi2go3 foma ku2go-

i3fofanamanama foi2foma foi3ge4 goigo3 foi3ne2fago faku3go yefoi4ke2nafa fai2fokonafa foi3na
i2fomafofama-
moku3go i2ko3go fe2fai2go4 foiko2nama foi2foma ku3go ke3go yefoi2ko3go fofago gu3 yefogoi2go-
koke3go yefoi2ko3go foiko3go ke3naga3 ge3 yefoi2ko3go fofai2ko2go manama foiko3go foi2nafa-
monafai2go3 mofoma u3yigo konaga3 foi2nama ei3ke3go oi3ge2 foigo fofafoma foige2 manafaefa-
mofoinaga2 foi2naga2 eyiko2go yefoiko3 goi2ko2go foi2ko2go ke3go foiko2go igo2ibo2-
yefoimo3 fofai2go3 foi2ko3go yefoko4go eyi2go2 fu3ma naga3 foinama ke4go fake3go-
kofoigo3 yefofoi2naga3 foiko3go foiko2go fe3fake2go foi2ko3go foiko2go yefoi2ko2go foi2ko2nama
kona-
yefoi2ko3go foke3go mafoga3 ku4go yefoi2ko3go foi2ko3go fofafoma foi2ko3go yefofai2ge3 ma nafa-
fu3ma ge3 manafa ge4 ma nafa ke4go-
yi3kofoma ku3nafa yefoi3ke2go koku3go ku3go ike3go fau3inafa u2yi3go konaga3 kogo-
fe3ma ku4go konaga3 fooi2ko3go yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko2go foiko3go ku3go yefoi2ko2go ku3naba-
mofofafu3fa gu4 faiko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoinafa ke3go e3yigo foiko2go3yei2fofa ke3go kogo3-
monaga3 ku4go yefofa ku4go foi2ko4go yefoiko3go ke3go yefoiko2go fofako4go yefoiko3go fafo-
yefoi2ko3go yefofa ke4go foiko2go yiko2go foiko2go yefoiko3go uyiko2go yefoo3i2ko3go koko3go-
ike3go faku4go ke3nafa ke3go e3yigo2-
i3fofaku2nafa foiko2nama2 foi3ku3nafa yefoi2ko2go ku3go i3uke3nafa ifu3i2ko3go fou2i3fofamo-
monama fofai2go3 fu2i2naga3 fu3fafofa foiko2go yeoi2ke2go yefoko4go yefoi2ko2go fai2ko2go ke2go-
fagu3 yefoyi2ko2go yefokogo3 yefofai2ko3go yefoi2ko2go fe2fa ke3ge3 konaga3 fofai2ko2go-
fomanama gu4 foinama ku3go foiko2go e2yi2go2 fofake3go e2yi2go e2yi2go fai2go-
kofofa u2oigo2 yefoi2ko2go fofa e2yi2go faku3go yefoi2ko3go ke4go yefoi2ko3go ufa fafoba4-
yiko2go foifo2fa ke2nama eyi2go me4 mofofai2ke2go ge3 fake4go fake3go yefoiko3go-
mofofagu3 yefoiko2go ge3 kogoigo2 iko3go fage3 yefoi2ko2go ke3go fanafa ke3go fake3go-
koke3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ge2 yefofofa ku3go ku3go ke3go fofae2*ga2 uoigo2 monaga3-
yefoi2go3 fagu4 konafa fake3go fofagu3-
i3fu3fakogo foi3nafaku3go yefoi2ku3go yefoi2ko2go kofoma gu3 foi3ke3go konafa mofoi4ne2ba-
kofu2fa yefoi2naga3 me3 konaga3 e2yi2go foifo2fakogo yefoi2go3 eyi2go fafomanafago-
konaga3 uyi2go2 yefoi2ko3go monaga3 e2i2 naga2 managa2 fo i2naga efanaga4-
monaga3 u2yi2go fe3fage3 yefoi2ko2go monama2 u2yi2go fai2ko3go fake3go-
monama ku4go yefoi2ko3go yefofai2go2 fake2go mome4 mu4 nafame3 foi2naga3 nafanafakogo-
ike3go famu4naga3 me4 ige2 maku3 ei2naga3 u3i2go uinafake4go fakonaga-
monama2 u2i2naga4 u2imonaga4 uoigo foigo2 foi2naga3 foiko2go yefoinama ke3go-
inaga2 gu4 yefoinaga2 ke3go yefoi2naga3 ke3go inaga3 eyi2ko2go foifofa foigo-
monaga2 foinaga3 uyi2ko2go-
monai2naga3 foi2ko3go ke3go yefoinaga2 yi3go2 foi3ge4 foigomonaga3 foinamago-
gome4 nafake3go yefoi2ko3go faku3go ifofake3go fake3go yefoi2go monaga3 fofafoma-
konaga3 fe3fa igo3 fauoigo foi2go3 yeko3go-
yefoko3go fake3go me3 fofafoga4 e4i2go u2i2go2 yefoi2go2 yefoi2go monaga3 mogo-
monaga3 ke3go ku3go yefoi2ko3go fafofamonaga4 yefoi2naga2 ge3 ma nafa ma naga3 kofa-
mogu3 faku3go yefoi2naga3 ku3go foi2ko2go monaga fofa i2ko3go mofoma yefoi2go koko2go-
mofofa ku3go yefoi2go konaga3 ku3go ge3 yefoi2naga3 ke4go yefo ne2ma naga3-
mofofa gu3 ke3go yefoi2ko2go ke3go yefofa mo naga3 ku3go-

i3nafakonamanama2nafa yefoi2fofa ge3 yefoi3ke3go yefoi3ke3go kogofame3 nafai2ko2go fanafago-
ifofake2nama gu3 yefoinaga3 yefoiko2go yefoi2fofa ke2go yefoi2naga2 e2igo2 monafa-
yefoiko3go yefoi2naga3 ku3go fe2fa ku3go uyigo2 yefoi2ko3go foiko3go ne2ba-
mofofaiko3go yefoiko3go yefokoko3go ke3naga3 ke3go ku3naga3 fu3fafofa ke3-
yefoi2ko3go yefofaku4go nu2fa iko2go ke3go faku4go yefoi2ko2go yefofanafa ke3go-
mofoi2ge4 managa2 nu4fa yefoiko3go yefoi2naga3 ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoiko2go-
yefoi2ko3go ku3go yefoifofa ku3go yefoi2naga3 u2oigo yefoi2ko3go fake3go fafofa-
moku3go yefoinaga3 ke3go yefoi2naga3 ku3go yefofake4go yefoi2ko3go fafofa-
yefoiko3go yefoiko3go yefoi2ko2go ku4 yego3 monaga3 u2oigo yefoi2ko3go fafofa-
konaga3 ke4go fagu3 yefofa nama me4 u2yi2ko2go yefofa ke4go yefoinaga3-
yefoi2ko3go fage3 fagu4 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nama yefoi2go3 fanaga3 ge3-
yefoinaga2 nu3fa yefoi2ko3go yefoigo3 yefoi2naga2 gu4 yefoiko2go konafake3go-
ke3naga3 ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go3 ke3go nu3ma fofanaga3go-
yefoiko3go nafa fake3go ma foga2 ge2 ke3naga3 ge4 foi2ko2go yefoi2go-
fu3i2go yefoi2naga3 ke3go fake3go nafaku3go yefoi2ko3go ke3go yefoi2nafa-
konaga3 kofofa nama yi3go2 fai4ne3fa nu3ma yefofage2-
foiko2go yefoi2namaku3go yefoi2nafa ku3nama konafa ke3go konamanama-
yefoiko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naga3 eyigo fake3go yefoi2nafago-
mofofake3go yefoi2naga2 foi2naga3 ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoiko2go-
fofage3 yefoigo2 yefoi2naga2 fofake4go monama fanaba-
monaga3 ne4fa yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoinafa-
yefoi2naga3 eyi2go2 monaga3 yefoi2fanaga2 e4i2go fafofa-
yefoi2naga2 eyi2go yefoi2go3 yefoiko2go yefoiko2go yefoinamago-
yefoma naga2 fe3fa fofa ne3fafoma ge4 yefoinaga3 kogomago-
konaga3 ke3go yefofai2ko3go yefoiko4go monama **ga4 e2oigo kogo-
yefoi2naga3 ku3go ke3go yefofake3go yefoi2naga3 yefoi2naga3 e2yi2go managa3-
mofofai2go3 foi2naga3 ke3go yefoi2naga2 ku4go yefoi2naga3 ke3naga3 ne3fago-
koku3go i3ke3go yefoinaga2 ke3go konafaefa yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nafa fofage3-
ino3fanaga2 ge3 yefoiko3go yefoi2naga2 ke4go ge4 fake3go-
i3fofa ku3go yefoko3go yefoi2naga3 eyi3go2 yefofa fainaga3 ku3go yefofa-
fofanaga3 ge4 u2yi2go2 fagu4 yegoi2naga3 ku4go fanaga3-
konaga4 fofa o3*kogo foi2naga3 fu4fa yefoinaga3 ku3go yefoigo-
konaga3 u yefofage3 yefoiko2go yefoinafa managa2 efama namafofa-
yefoi2ko3go yefoiko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2go3 managa3 nafa-
kofe4fa ke4go yefoinaga3 yefoiko3go yefoiko2go managa3-
gu4 yefoi3ke3go yefofa ke4go yefoi2no2ma ge4 fafofago kogo-
yefoi2naga3 me3 fane3ma konafa me2 mofamo naga2 fofa managa3 fafoko-
konaga3 efaei3gu4 iofa fe3fa konako gomafoigo2 konaga3-
gogu4 konafa monama3nafa monafa konafafo inaga2 konamago konafafo-
mofokonama fofafoi2go-

yeoiko2go ku3go yefoifofa fokonafa ne2fa konama yefoi3ku3go yefoiko2go yefoiko2go yefoi2ko2go
konafa-
ofaku3go yefofaku4go yegomame2 gokoko3go foi2ko2go faku3go ema ku2nafa ke3go yefofai2go-
ye i2go4 ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefokogoi2go2 yefoi2ko2go moku4go inaga4 fu3fa iko3go gomago-
kofe3fa i2gu3 yefofaegu2 fe3fa fofake3go fofame2 fofaku4go yefoi2ko2go ke3go-
ike3nama nafanaga2 e2yi2go monafa ku3go yefoi2nafa ke3go yefoi2ko2go yefofa ku3go fafofa-
yefoyi2go kofofake2go koku4nafa yefoi2nafa ke3go konafaku3go yefoi2foko2go konafa fofage2-
fake3go ku3nafa yefoi2ko2go foi2nafa ke3go yefoi2nafa ku3go ke3go yefofa ke2go fanaba-
mofoma fu3fa ke2go yefoi2ko3go konama ku3go ke3go yefoi2nafa ke3go yefoi2go2 faku3go konafa-
konamake4nafa yeko3go yeko3go3 fofage3 fage3 yeko2go fomage4 yefofa manama nama-
yefofa i2naga3 gu3-
iko2nafa konaga3 foi2naga3 ku3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2naga2 foiko2go konamago-
fofake3go yefofaku3go yefoi2ke3go yefoi2go3 konaga3 fofafofa-
yefoi2naga3 fu3fa oi2ko2go yefoi2go2 yefoi2nafa konafa kofago-
yefomanaga3 gu3 yefoi2naga3 ne2fanaga4 ke3go yefofa-
konaga3 monafa ke3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2nafa ku3i2fo2fago-
yefoi2nafa monafa ke3go u2ye i4fe2ma yefoinamofofai2go konamafomago-
kofofage3 yefofake3go foyefoi2naga2 fofai2naga3 eyi2go yefoi2nafa konama-
yefoi2nafa me4 fofaku3go kofomanaga3 fofa yefoi2go me3 fofakonafa-
konaga3 u3i2go2 yefoi2ko3go konaga3 konafa2 yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go mafofa-
fafe2ma naga4 ku2go yefoi2naga3 monaga3 konafa ku4go yefoi2ko3go manafa-
konaga2fofa ku3go mage2 fu3ma yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go eyi2go yefoi2ge2 fakofofa-
iku3go yefoi2naga2 ke3nafa i4ke3go e2i2go monaga2 ke3go yefoi2naga2 fofa-
goke3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2 fofafu3ma fofake2go-
ige2koge2 faku3go konafago konafa koku4go i3fe3fa fai4fofa fofake4go yefoigo-
gu3 fofa gu4 yefoi2ko2go fake3go yefoi2naga3 konafa konaga3 ke3go-
yefonama ku3go yefoi2naga3 uyigo yefoiko2go maema fofaiko2go fage2-
goge4 yefofaku3go yefoi2nafake3go yefoi2naga3 e2yi2go yefoi2nafa-
yefoi2naga3 e2i2go monama ke3go yefoi2nafa konamago yefoinafa konafa managa2-
mofofai2ke3go nu2ma goinafa kogo kogo ke3go fai2ge3 yefoi2ko2go make3-
ife2mo gu4 yefoi2naga2 yefoi2naga2 fu3fa yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nafa konamago-
yefoige2 yefoi2nafa ku3go yefoi2ko2go fake3go yefoi2ko2go yefofa monaga3 ge3-
moke3go yefoinama monamafofaku4go yefoi2naga2 ge4 managa3 konaga3 gu3-
ifofakonafa ku3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2naga2 kofofake4go mofofake3go yefoi2ko2go-
kofe3fa i2ke3go mofoyi2go2 yefoi2nafa yefoi2nafa ku3go fu2fakogo yefoinafa konama-
yefoi2go3 mafofa ke2nama ge4 yefoi2naga3 monaga3 ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naba-
ke3go fake3go fai2naga3 kogo yefoi2nafakonama ke2naga2 fakoe2* fofamanaga3 fofakogo-
ige4 yefoi2go3 yefoi2nafa fake3go fe3fai2naga3 foi2fofa-

iku3foma ku3go yefoi3ke3go yefoi2ko2go kogoyefoi2fofa foi2go-
yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go ku3go ike3go foinama fofai2ko2go konaba-
yeyi2ko2go e2i2go kofofa ke3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2naga2 fofai2ko2go-
goiko3go yefoinafa kofofa ku3go yefoi2ko2nama eyigo2 foifoma kofomafoma-
yefoi2nafa foiko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go konafa yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go mabonaba-
koku3go yefoi2ko2go foi2nama yefoi2ko2go ku3go goi2ko2go ku3go yefoi2go-
moke3go i2ko3go yefoi2ko2go eyi2ko yefoi2naga2 ke3go yefoiko2go kogo-
koku3go koko3go yefoi2ko3go foiko2go foinafa iko2go foigo2 fofafoga3-
yefoi2go foi2ko3go u2oigo yefoiko3go foigo2 uyi2ko2go mofoi2fofa foma-
kofoma u2i2ko2go yefoi2fofa i2oke2go foiko2go fofa iko2go eyi2ko2go-
yefoi2ko2go fofai2ko2go yefoi2naga2 foi2ko2go i2ko2go ifofakogo yefoike2go kogo-
mofoma e2yi2go foma eyi2kogo kofofa i2ko2go yefoi2ko2ko2go yefoi2naga fofa-
koeyi2ko2go yefoi2ke2go yefoi2ko2go foi2ko2go konafafoma foko3 fofai2naga2-
yefoi2fofa foiko2 foi2naga2 ke3 foma nafafomago-
mofoga3 i2nama i2ko2goi3fogu2 ike2fofaikogo-
fofake3go yefoi2naga2 konama nama foi2naga2-
go e3ma naga3foi2ko3go yefoi2naga2 efa-
mofofa ku3go konafaku2go yefoi2goke2go-
fake3go yefoi2naga2 e4i2go fafoi2nakogo-
goke3 yefoi2naga2 konaga3 eyi2kogo fama-
monaga2 fu3mafofai2ke2go mafoga3 foi2ko3go-
yefoi2ko3go i2ko2go yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko2go fofafofa-
mofoi2ko3go fu3fa fafomanaga2 fofai2go3 managa3-
mofofagu3 i2namago fomaku3go yeko3nama naga2nafofa-
konaga3 oyi2nafa konafa3nafakogo-
i3fo*naga2 fofa yefoi2ko3go i2fe2fa ine2fafofai2o3 goi4ge3 foi4ke3go inafago-
mou3i2go fofai2ko2go eyi2go inaga2 foigo yefoi2foma foi2go konaga2 ge2 fofa-
yefoi2ko3go yefoi2go2 konaga3 fofai2naga2 konafa ke3go fofafofakonafa eeigo iko2go-
mofofai2ko3go u2yi2go yefoi2fokogo foinafaku3go foinama fofake3go yikogo-
yefoi2ko2go yi2kogo yefoi2naga2 ke3go konafai2go fai2naga2 goi2ko3go foi2nafago kogo-
goiko2go konaga3 goi2ko2go gofofagu4 yefoi2ge2 foi2nafa fofai2ko3go kogoi2go-
koku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi3ke3go yefoi2nafago konama foi2naga3 foi2no3fa naba-
gomonaga2 e2yi2go yefoi2naga2 e4i2go konaga3 konaga3 goimo3fofakogo-
yefoike3go fake3go fake3goi2ko2go yefofa monaga3 yi2naga2 foma-
fomonafa fofa mo naga3 mu3 naga3 fofago-
moma3naga3 foiko3go fofa naga3ke3go-
yefoinaga3 yefoi2naga3 foi2ko2go fai2ko3go-
ku3go yefofa ku3go yefoi2naga3 komafofa-
goi2naga2 ke2nama ke3go yefoi2naga3 kogo-
konaga2 ei4naga3 foi3nafago i2foinafago-
fake3gomai3ke3go yefoi2naga3 kofoma-

i3goi2ko2go fofai4ke3go yefoi2ko2go moi3ge2 ke3go mafofa kofoma foi4ke3go yefoi2ko2go-
fofaku3go yefoi2ko2go maku3go yikogo foiko2go i2ko2go konafa konafa kofofa foigo konafa-
yefoi2ko2go e2igo yefofaku3go foi2ko2go kofofamo3fofage3 yefoiko2go fofakonako-
fofage2 faku2go fae2yi2go fofa i2ko3go fae2yi2go2 fafofai2ko2goi2naga2fofa-
yefoma fofai2go3 fofai2naga2 fofa mo3go2 fofa e4i2go konama foi2nafa konafa fofake3go-
oigo foi2nago foma gu4 goi2go3 fafogo3 yefoi2naga2 foi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefofa-
foinama goku3go foiko2go ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go foinama foiko2go-
yefoi2ko2go foiko2go yefoi2naba4 foiko3go yefoi2ko3go konama fomako2go koi2ko2go konaga2-
gofe3fai fofai2ko3go yefoi2ko3go fofake3fofa foi2ko3go yefoiko2go mafomanamafofa-
koku3go yefomako2go fomaku3go i3ke3go yefoi2oke2go foi2ko2go foi3ke3go-
yefofa ko4go yefofa foi2go3yei2nafa fofa ke2go yefoi2naga2 eyigo konaga3-
fu3ma fofa yefomanaga3 uyi2go foinafago yefofagu4 yefoi2nafamonaga2-
kofe2i2fofa ke3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go2 yefofa ke3go yefoi2ko3go fage3-
yefofai2ko2go yefofaku3go fofai2kogo foi2fofake3go yefoi2naga2 konafa-
ge4 yefofake3go yefoi2go2 foma e3i4 eyi2go2 iko2go yefoi2ko2go fama-
fagu3 maku3go koyefoi2ko2go foi2go2 fake3go yefoi2kogo konaga3 fofago-
yefofa ku4go yefofa fafe3fa fake2go koke2go konayenama fofai2nafakogo-
ke3go uyi2go yefoi2ko2go konafa fauyi2go yefofayefofa foiko3go yefoma-
fake3go fofa ke3nama ku3go fafoma ku3nafakogo fomanaga2-
yefoi3fe3fa foi3ke3go yefoi2naga2 foi3ke3gofage3 yi3nama fofa foi2nafafoma-
ke3go faku3go fofaku3go foinaga3 fofa yefoi2nama ku3go goiko3go-
foi2fofa gu3 fofa ku3go foi2nafa foi2ge3 foi2fo2fa fofake3go yefofa-
yefofa ke3go foi2ogu2 yefoiko3go foi2ko3go fofaku3go yefoi2ko2gokogo-
goinaga3 ku3go fofa ku4go fofaku2go gu3 i2ku2go fu2fa i2ko2go-
ifo3fa fofai2ogu3 yefofafe3fa fofa foma u2yi2ko2go foma fofa nu2ba-
yefomanaga3 foma ku4go foinaga2 fofa ku3go mofofa i4ke3go foinafakogo-
fafofa i2nama uma mafofa fofama gu4 fofa ke3go fofainama fofai2naga3-
fofainaga2 gu3 yefoi2go2 foi2nama fofa foiko3go eyi3go fanama naga3ko-
fake3go foige3 yefofa ke3go fama nafamonaga4 fofaku3go namago-
monafa fu2fa monaga2 u2oigo foma foga4 foi2nafa fofainafa yefoi2nama namago-
mofoma namafoma kofe2ma foinaga3 foinaga2 goiko2go fofaku2go fu2fai2nafa-
fafofa fe3ma fu3fakogo yefoi2nama foinafafoma-

ifomanaga2 ku3go i3fe2ma foma u2i2 foinamai3ko3go foi3fe2fafoma foinafa ku3go-
yefoiko3go faku2go foiku3go fofagu3 fofau3 yefofagu4 yefoigo3 fafokogo-
gonu3fakogo maku3go yefoiko3go eyi2go2 gofogo ge3 fage3 yefoi2go3 make3go-
igo3 konama yefoinama ku3mo u3i2go3 yefoi2go3 foi2go2 yefofagu2 fofage3 yefoi2gofofa-
yefoi2nafa ko2go eyigo foma ne3ma mofofage3 yefofanu2fa ge3fa fe3fa fe2fage2-
fu2fa foi2nama fofafofai2go3 yefoi2go2 monaga2 fofage4 yefofa ge3-
i3fofake3go yefoi2nama gu3 yefoi2fa fofage4 yefoi2naga2 ge3 yefoigo yefoi2nama-
yefoi2fofa ke4go yefoi2nafa ku3goi2ke3go eyigo gofoi2go yefoinafa fe2fafo-
monaga3 ku3go i3ku3go yefoi2nama fu3fa yefofage3 yefoigo yefoi2nafa yefoi2nabo-
yefoi2ku3go yefoi2naga2 fu3ma foi2fofa fu4fa yefoiogu2 fe2igo foioge2mo-
fu2yi2go ke3go igu3 koku2go foine2ma u2i2 eyigo foinafa fomago-
yefoi2ge2 yefoige3 *konaga2 ku3go yefoinaga3 monafa-
i3nu2mafofa u3i2go2 yefoiku2go yefoinafakogo foi3ku3go yefoinama foma naga3fofa-
monamanafa yefoi2naga2 e2yi2go yefoinafa yefofa-
yefoi2fa gu3 yefoi2nafa ke3go foi2fofakogoigo managa3 fofa fu3fa fage3-
nu2ga2 uyi2go yefofago i2ku3go foinafa gu4 yefoi2naga2 gu3 yefoi2nabo-
yefoi2naga3 gu2 fagu4 famonama2 foma namafoma foinaga3 me3 fofafofa fofa-
mofofafoma fofagu3 yefoi2naga3 ge3 yefoi2naga2 foinaga2 foinaga2 foinafa fokonaba-
mofofage4 fe2fa monaga2 fomanafa gu3 yefoi2naga2 gu3i2go fu2i2go fofago-
gonu2fa goke3nama foyi2go moyigo2 inafa ne3ma-
i3fofa nu2ma u2ma2 i3ge3 foigu3 foi2nafomo naga3 foi2gu3 konafai2go4mago-
fage3 konafaku4go oi4ke3go foinaga2 gu3 yefoi4ge3 fofa kofomake3ge3-
konama nu3ma yefoi2naga3 fofafai2naga2 foike3go foma fofai2fa foiku3go foifomago-
yefoi2ku3go yefofai2go3 yefofai2ko3go yefoi2ko2go foinaga2 foige3 foi2naga2go-
fe2fage3 yefoigu2 yefofagu3 yefoi2nama ku3go foigo3 eyigo-
i3fofanaga3 fofaiko3go yefoige3 kogoi2ko3go yefoi2ke2go foi3ke3go fu2fa fomago-
yefoi2ko3go gu4 i2namo ge4 fofai2naga3 fofa fomago fe2fafoma foigofoi2go-
gokofofagu4 yefoi2naga2 fokonaga2 goigo3 ge2igo3 foifofakogofage3-
fage4 yefoge3 yefokogo yefoi2nafa fofafoma foi2ke2 kofe2fa koge2 fofago-
goku3go yefoinafa gogu4 fofafoma-
i3fofagu3 fofaiku3go fu3fa goi2go3 foi2go3 fe3ma ku4go fofa-
mofofa ke4go yefoiko3go foi2naga3 fofafofanaga3 gu3 konaga3 e2** fofa-
konaga3 ku3go yefoiku3go foiko4go foiko3go fogo3 yefoinama3 fofa-
fafe3fai2ke3go yefoinamo gu4 ifo2fa foiko3go-
i3fofake3go ku3go yefoiko3go yefoinaga2 fokogo eyi2mo2 foinafa-
mofofa fu4fa fofa ge4 foko u3i2go fu3fa foma nu3mafofago-
fafe3fa fofa fofagu4 fofagu4 fu2fai2go3 foi2ge3 kooga3-
i3fofa fofai2go4 fu3fa yefoi2go3-
i3fofai2go3 yefoi2fofa foiku2go fofai2go fomai2foma u3i3ke3go fofai2nafa-
goku3go yefoi2ke3 fofaige3 foife2inama fofa foi2naga3 eyi2go-
yefoi2naga2 ku3go yefoinaga2 foiko3go ei2naga2 fofa fofa ke3go fofago-
monaga2 foi2na*fo ke3go fai2ke3go naga3 foi2naga2 fofago ke4go-
gogu3 yefoi2naga2 fe3fa yefoi2go konaga3 ei2nabo fomake4go fakogo-
fokogo namanaga foi2go3 konamafe3mago-

i3fofakoku3go fofai2fomago yefoifofafofa foifofakogo foiko2fofafoma fofafomafofa-
yefoiko3go yefoi2ge3 yefoigo fagu3 yefoi2naga2 yefoinaga2 gu3 yefomake3go-
kofofafu3fa foi2ge2 yefoi2naga2 ku4go yefoi2ku3go yefoi2ko3go foinamanaba-
yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoinaga2 mofofa ke3go i2ge3 yefoi2go fake3go-
yefofai2ko3go yefoi2ko2go yefoinafa monaga3 fomago yefoi2ko2go foiko3go fane3ba-
goe2yi2go2 ma naga2 ke3go yefoi2naga2 ke3go fofaku3go konama goinaba-
yefoi2gu3 yefoi2ko3go yefofai2ko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naga2 mofofake3go-
goke3go yefoigo2 foi2ko2go iko2gofofa ku4go yefoi2go3 yefoiko3go fafoo-
mafoma fofa gu4 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2oge3 yefofa-
i3ke3go fau2yi2ko2go yefoi2go3 yefoi2naga3 fofai2go foi3ke3go i3ke3go-
fofage4 fake3go yefofai2ko3go yefoi2naga2 eyi2go foinama fofai2naba-
i3ku2go foi4ke2go yefoi2ko2go yefoiko3go yefoko2go yefofaiko2go yefoiko2go foi2go-
konaga2 nama fofagu3 kogoinaga2 yefoi2naga2 e3yigo foi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go mafoma-
yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko2go foi2go3 yefoi2fofa ku4go yefoi2ko3go i2fofage3 yefoi2ko3go-
goiko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naga2 fofai2go3 fe3i2naga2 kogoigo3 mafoinaga2-
kofofa gu4 yefofa fofai2gu3 yefoi2ko3go fofai2ko3go yefofa foi2naga3 fofago-
yefofa gu4 fe2fa fofa konama yefoi2naga3 e4i2go2 yefoi2go foinaga2 foi2naba-
yefoi2naga2 gu4 yefoi2go3 igo3 foigo3 fage4 yefoi2go3 fofai2ko3go mage3-
goi2nafa2 gu2 yefofanama gu3 yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go konama fofai2naga2 ne2ba-
koke3go fage3yeoigo ku3go foi2naga2 goi2o3ma fofai2go2 foigo gu3 yefofago-
kogu3 yefoi2nafa ku4go u3i2go fomanaga2 foiku2go konaga2 yimo2 nama foma-
igu3 goi2go3 ei2naga2 fomanaga4-
ifofai2go2 foi2nama fofa foi2naga3 foigofafoma yefoi2fofa foi2ko3go konafanamago-
gone4ma fo foga3 foko3go yefoinaga2 ke3go yefoi2go3 foigo3 yefoi2go3 fafofa-
yefoi2go3 fofa fofaku2go yefoinaga2 foiko3go fofai2naga2 foigu3 monaga2 fofa-
goi2ko3go foi2naga3 kogoi2naga3 foiko2go koi2go3 inama fofa foifofa fo**go-
fokoge3 i2nama foi2naga2 foi3nama foinaga2 fofai2go2-
i3ge3 i2fu3fa yefoi2naga2 foi3ke3go foinafaku2go fofai2nama2 foinaga3 foi2ko3go-
konaga2 gu3i2ko3go fai2fo foi3ke3go yefoiko2go foigo2 inafa konaga2 foigo3 foigo-
yefoi2naga2 u3i2go foi2nama foi2go2 yefoi2go2 iko2go moi2naga2 foiko3go yefoi2go-
gou3ma naga3 fo goi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nama foiko3go mafofainaga2-
fofai2go3 fofa foma foge4 fofa fofa foi2ko4go e2yi2go nama foma-
i3foma nama foma goigo3 igo3 fomanama fogu3 yefoi2go ge3 foi2go3 fakogo fomanafa-
goi2go4 yefoi2go3 fagu3 yefoi2go ike3go fomaku4go foinaga2 fu3ma fofago-
yefoma ge4 i2naga2 efa fofa foifofa konaga2 foinaga2 fofa foiko3go yefoi2naga-
gogu4 fofagu3 fofaiku2go2 u3i3gu3-
i3fofa fofa nu2fai2naga2 foi2go3 fai2go3 yefoi2nafa foiemakogo foi2oku2go-
fofai2go4 yefoi2go3 foi2ko3go ku3go yefoi2go3 foi2naga2 u2yi2kogo kona*-
yefoi2ko3go goi2go3 gu4 foma foma naga3 gooi3naga3 e3yigo2 kofoi2 goigo-
yefoi2go3 naga3 foi2naga2 fofa naga3 yefoi2naga2 u3i2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nama fofa-
goku3go yefoi2go3 foi2naga2 fofai2go3 konafakogo ke3go i2naga3 fomanaga2-
foi2ke3go yefoi2naga2 u3i2go ke3go fofa naga2 gokonamanafa-

i3kofofa i3ku3goyei3fofai2naga2 foyifoma foi2ke2go yefoi2ko3go yefoife3fa fofai2foga3 gokonamagu3-
kogoi2gu2 fofafoike3go yefoi2naga2 yefoinaga2 eyi2go2 yefoi2naga2 foi2nafa yefoinaga2 foi2ko2go
yefofama-
ike3go yefoinama2 fe3fa yefoi2nafa yefoi2nafa e2oigo yefoi2naga3 yefoi2nama yefoinaga2 ke3go
yefoi2nabo-
mofofai2naga2 ufa fai2go eyigo yefoi2naga2 yefoige2 yefoinafa kogo eyi2go fago2 yefoinama foinafa-
yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go e2yi2go fofake3go yefoi2naga2 ge3 yefoi2oeyi2go foinama fe3fainaga2mogo-
mofofake3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nama fofake3go yefoi2naga2 u3yigo yefoi2ko3go *nafainama ei2naga2foigo-
mofofai2go u2yi2go uoigo ui2fo2fa yefoi2nama uoigo e2inaga2 fofa fofai2nama foi2naga2 u3i2go
yefoi2nafa konafa-
i3naga3 nu3fa yefoi2naga2 e2igo yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nama uyigo yefoinafa u3yigo yefoi2naga2fofai2naba-
kofe3fa ku3go yefoi2o3fa yefoinaga3 einafa moeyigo yefoi2nafa eyigo yefoi2naga2 foi2naga2fofafoi2go-
yefoiko3goi2go3 yefoi2naga2 eyi2go yefoigo konafake3 foinaga2 ke3go yefoi2nama2 gu3 konafafobo-
ku3go yefoi2go2 uyi2go2 yefoinama eyi2go foifofa ifo2fafu3fa yefoiofa2 fofaioga3 eyigo-
yefoi2ko3go yefofa u3yigo yefoi2nafai2fo2fa yefoi2go yefoi2nafa ku3go monafa fofai2naga2 gu3yefoi2fa-
gogu3 fa gu3i2naga3 fafoma naga4 uyigo i3ge3 fofai2ko3goinama foi2go fanama-
fafofa ge3moge2 mafofa konaga2 foigo yefoigo foinafafoma u2yi2go fofai2go3 manafa ke3gofoma-
konama nu3fa e4i2go foi2naga2 mofofa faku3go kofofa e3yigo fomafofa mo4nafa fofafo ifo2fa
fomago-
fafe2fa konama u3yigo foiko2go yefofa fofake4go foi3e4i2go yefoige2 yefoi2naga3 foinama2 fofai2go-
fafofa nu2ma foinaga3 fofai2naga3 fofa fofai2naga2 fomanaga3 fofafoma e3yigo fofafoma-
i3fe3fai2nafa konafa i2fomage2 yefoigo2 yefoigo make3go yefoi2nafa fofai2nafaku3go eigo-
foi2ge3 yefoi2go ke3go yefoi2naga2 ku3go yefofa gu4 yefoi2nafa konama namago-
koku3go yefoi2nafa eyigo yefoi2naga2 ku3go foi2naga3 gu3 konaga2fofa-
yefoi2nafa e3yigo mofofa ge3 foi2nafafofa foi2nafago yefoi2ko3go fofago-
mofofage3 yefoi2go ma ge3i2naga2 u2yi2go yefoi2naga2 foi2naga2 fofa-
mofofage3 yefoi2go3 fai2nama foinafa fofai2go3 foi2naga2 u3yigo fofa-
yi2ge3 mae2i2go u2i3ke3go yefoi2nama fofa yefoyi2go2 fage3 yefoi2ko2go i2fomafoga3go-
fofai2go3 fafu3fa yefoi2go3 ku3go yefofa ku3go yefoi2naga2 gu3 yefoigo yefoi2naga2 yefoi2nakogo-
yefoi2go3 mage3 inaga2 foigo3 yefoi2naga2 u2i2naga3 u2yi2go yefofagu3 yeo*naga2 fofafafoba-
mofofa fofai2go3 foinama fomage3 yefoi2fo2go fainafafoma fofafoma yefoi2naga3 fofagu3yefoifomanafafoba-
mofoma fofai2go yefoigoigoifoma gu3i2go ifoifofa foi3ke3go yefoi2naga2 u3i2go yefoi2naga2 fofa
yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nafa2 foigo3 foinaga2 ku3go goi2go3 manama nafamu4-
ifomafofamu2kogo foi3oge2 u2i3ge2 yefoinaga3 uyigo yefoi2ko2go konafago-
ifofai2naga2 foinafa ke3go yefoi2nama fofa ku3go e2yi2go fomafofago-
goge4inafa e3yigo yefoi2naga2 yefoi2naga2 e3yigo yefoi2naga2 fofa-
mofoma u2yi2go yefoi2nama e2yi2go foi2naga2 u2yi2go yefoi2go3 fago-
yefoi2naga2 uyi2go yefoi2fofai2naga2 ke3go yefoi2oga3 e3yigo fafoma-
foi2naga2 ku3go yefoi2na* ke3go yefoinaga3 e2i2go fai3go3 fafofafoba-
yefoi2naga2 ge4 fofai2naga2 ku3go yefoi2naga3 fomafofa mo-
i3foge2 oi3nafafoma2 foi2naga2 foi2naga3 ego4 i2naga3 gofafoma fofai2go3 yefoi2nafa-
mofofa gu2 fafoga3 ge4 yefoi* uoigo fu3i2go yeoi2ga4 ge4 manabo-
iga4 ge3 manafa i2ma2 ge3 fai2fa fofa u3ma foi2naga3 fofai2go foi2fafoma-
fafofa ge3 monaga3 uoigo foi2naga4 fu3ma ige3 fai2naga3 foi2naga2go-
inafai2fa fofa mofofa fe3fago konaga3 foinafago foinaga2 ge3 fai2naga2 fofafoba-
mofofaifa gu3 yefoi2fage4 fai2naga3 fofa fofafoma naga3 gokonaga3 fe3fai2naga2-
fafofago3 fage3 yefoi2nafa fe3fa fafe2ma foifafofa-

i3foko3go kofofai4ke3go yefoi2ko3go yefoiko2go yefoifofai4ke3go mafofago-
iku3go yefoiko2go fofai2naga2 foinafa eyi2go yefoi2go konaga3 kofofago-
moke3go yefofake3go yefoi2naga3 eyigo foinaga3 u2oigo yefofa-
yefoi2ko2go yefoi2naga yefoi2naga2 ke3go yefofa yefofa u3i2go yefofago-
foi2ko3go ke3go fofai2ko3go foyigo yefoi2naga3 uyi2go yefoinaga2fofa-
ife3fa i2ko2go i3fe3fa i2naga2 ku3go yefoi2naga3 foigo2 yefoi2ko2go ke3go-
i3fofafu2fa ige3 yefoi2fofa ku3go yefoigu3 monafago i2ge3 moifofai3ge2-
fofaiko3go yefoi2naga3 ku3go yefoi2naga2 fu3fa yefoi2ke2go yefoi2ke2go yefoigokogo-
ike2go yefofa ifofa inafa inafa konaga2 eyi2go yefoi2nafa kofofa e3yigo yefoi2nafa fago-
mofofa gu4 yefoi2naga3 uyigo kofofaku3go yefoi2nafa u3yigo yefoinaga2fofa-
ifofa ku4go yefoi2nama fofai2go mafoma ge4 u2yi2go yefoinaga2 ke3go mafofa-
gofe3fa i2naga2 gu3 yefoi2naga2 ke3go yefoi2fofa fofai2naga2 uyigo2fa-
fafoma nama fofa fofafoma ge3 i2fofakogo-
iku3go yefoi2naga2 ku3go yefoi2namo foinafa yefoi3ku3go yefoigo fake3go yefoi3fofafomo-
yefoinaga2 eigo fake3go konafago ifofa ge3 yefoiko3go foinafa konaga2 fofa konafa-
fe3fa i2go2 yefoinama kogo yefoinafa kogo i2ko3go yefoi2naga2 foigo fafofakogo inafa-
mofofafe3fa yefoi2naga3 u3yigo yefoi2nafa fe3fa kogo yefoifafofai2nafa ke3goma-
goke3go yefofa foi2naga3 fofai2ko2go foma foi2naga2-
i3fu3fakogo koi2gu3 yefoi2foi3go mafoma foi3foma fofai3foyi2go fofaigokogo-
gogu4yefo manama fofa ge4 konaga3 gu3 yefoi2naga3 fofa foi2naga3-
ifoma i2naga2 foi2nafa go mage3 yefoi2nafa fofafoma naga3 foi2nafa foinabo-
koke3go yefoi2nafa fofa ge3 konafa foma ku3go faku3go-
i3fofaiofu2fa foi3go gu3 yefoi3ku3go yefoiko3go yefoifofa gu2 i2fofaku2 yefoi2go-
goku3go yefoi2go3 yefoi2go2 yefoigo yefoifofa foinaga3 fofa ke3go yefoi2go konaga3-
faku3go yefoigo fofafofa ge4 yefoi2naga2 foi2nafage2 inafa foma e3yigo monama-
yefoigo ge3yegoinaga3 ge3 fake3go ku3go fofage3-
i3fu2fa i2naga2 fofai2nama gu3 yefoi2naga2 kofofa fofainaga3 foi2naga2 nu2fa yefoigo-
fofafe3fa yefoi2naga2 foma nafa ne2ga2 yefoi2naga2 fofa i2naga3 foi2ko3go yefoi2go2fago-
yefoi2naga2 fofai2naga2 fofai2naga2 fofa i2fo3fa-
i3fofa foma fofai2naga2 foyi2go yefoi2naga3foi2naga2 foi2nama gu3 yefofai2go-
yefofa fofa naga3 fofai2naga2 fofa ke3go yefoi2naga2 fofagu3 yefoi2naga2-
mofofai2naga2 fu2fa i2naga2 foma fomafofai2ko3go fofai2go yefofai2naga2 ku3go-
yefoi2ko3go yefoi2oma fofai2naga2 fofaku3go yefoi2go2 yefoi2go3 ieyigo fafobo-
kofofa gu3ma gu3 fofagu3 yifoma gofake2go fofai2naga2 uyigo yefofago-
ifofa fofainaga2 fofai2nama go yefofa yefofa i2naga2 foi2ga3 fofa i2naga2 gu3 fakogo-
mofoga2 foi2naga2 fu3ma fofa ge3 konafago fofaku3go fofanafa ku3go fage2-
i3fofaku2go yefoi2ko3go ui2go fofafofage3-
i3fofai2ko2go fau2yi2go fofai2go foi fofai2ge2 mage3yeyigo mage3 manafa-
mofofa naga3 ge3 yefoi2naga2 me3 fofa eyi2go yefoi2ko3goike2go namanafa-
yefoi2naga2 fofa fe4ma fofanama ge3 ine2ma fofa ke3go yefoinafa fofake3go-
ifoma foma fofa nama uyi2go fai2fofa foifofa ke3go yefoi2naga2 eyi2go yefoi2nafa-
i3fofa fofa naga3 fofai2nafa nu2ma ku3go yefoi2fofa ke2go fakofofa konama nafa-
mofoma naga2 ui2naga2 nu2ma foi2gu3 konafanama fu2i2nafa kogo-
yefoi2nafa fomafofa-

i3fofafe2go yefoi2ko2go fu2fa i3ke3go fofai3ke3go foi4ku2go fofago-
koge3 faufa fofake3 yefoi2fofa fe2fa foinama ke3go foi2go-
yefoigo2 fame4 fofai2nafa fofa ke3go foi2nama ku3go-
koke3go yefoi2naga2 fofa fofa eyigo goi2ko3go nafa-
yefofa fe3fa foi2go3 fofa fofa fofa naga3 fofa foma naga2-
monama fofa mo2mo2 foigo3 fu2ma yefoi2go3 fofa-
komu4 foi2naga2 eyigo foigo2 foi2naga2-
i3ke3go yefoi2go3 foigo yefoigo2 foigo3 fofago-
yefoimo3go yefoiko2go yefoi2ko3go eyi3go2-
fe2fa konaga2 foiko2go ge4 yefoinaga2 fago-
fofafu3fa fofai2ko2go u2yi2ko2go fofaiko2go-
goke3go iko2go fofa ku4go yefoi2go3 fafofago-
kofe2fa ku3go yefoiko2go yefofa ke3go e2igomago-
yefoi2oke3go yefofaku4go foma naga2 namafofa foko4go-
monaga2 fofa ke4go yefoi2ko3go foiko2go-
i3fofake2go yefoi3fe2fa yefoi2foma fofai3ke3go foi3fofa fomafoma2go-
goe3yigo foi2ko3go gu3 yefoi2ko2go fofa ke3nama-
foku4go ku3go fofa ku3go foi2ko3go fomanama-
yefoi2ko2go ku4go ke3go yefoiko3go fofa naba-
yefoi3ke3go yefofa ke3go yefoi2go3 fokonaga3 managa2 konafago-
koku3go yefoi2nafa fofai2go3 foigo3 fofagu3 foigo2 fafofa-
yefoinafa ke3go yefofa fofa konaga3 fofa ke3nama fofa fofago-
ge3 foi2naga2 eu2yi2go mofoga3 ge3 fage3-
i3nama fokogo u2yi3go fe3fa yefoinafakonama foiko2go fofago-
mofoma ku3go yefofa foinaga2 foi2nama2 foi2nafa ke3go kogo-
i3ke3go yefoi2go2 foifo2fa yefofa fu3ma ku3goyeyikogomo-
mofofa ke3go yefoi2ko2go fofai2ko2go kofofa yefoi2ke3go-
yefoi2mo2kogo ke3go yefoi2nama ge3 inaga3 foigo2 faefa-
gogu4 gu2 ge3 faeyigo goinama fofai2naga3 fofa-
fa ku3go yefoi2ko2go mofoma fofai2nama fofai2naga3 fofai2ku2go-
mofofa ku3go fofa fake3go ku3go gu2 fofai2ko2go me3 foma foma fomanaga4-

i3nama gu3 iko3go u2i2nafa konafa konama fofa i3ke3go u2i2 konaga2 foi4nafau3i2go-
yefoi2ko2go foi2naga3 i2nama2 foi2nafa monama fofa i2ofa3 fofai2naga2 nafa fofa mafofa kofa-
monaga3 konaga3 fofa ii2ko3go foi2ko2go kogoi2naga2 u2i2 ke2go konafanafa fofakogo-
yefoi2naga3 foinaga2 e4i2go kogo fofai2naga3 konaga2 kogo konaga3 eyi-
foi2naga3 kooga4 foinaga2 eyi2go foi2ko3go yefoi2go-
yefoi2naga2 foi2naga3 fofa ke3go fe3fa fai2go famo naga3 foi2naga2 konafa kogo-
fofafoma fofa u2yi2nafa konaga3 yefoi2ko3nafa konaga3 eyi2go moke3go yefofa-
goi2fofa foma ku3go yefofai2ko3go konaga3 koi2oga3 yi3fokogo fofakogo-
gonama fofage3 i2naga3 foi2go3 konaga3 fofafoma e2yi2go kona*kogo-
i3fofagu2 nagu2iko3 yefoi3 foi2ko3go foiko2go foi2ku3go yefoigo konama2 naba-
fogu3 yefoi2go3 foi2go3 foi2go goigo3 yefoi2go foi2gofai2go fofage2 igo kofu2fagoko-
yefofa fofa ke2go ku3go yefoi2ko2go goiko2go e2iko2go fai2ko2go2 goiko2go-
goi2ogu3 koku3 goiko2go goiko2go konama goi2ko2nayi3go yefoigo goi2ko2go foi2nafa-
koku3go goi2ko3go u3i2go konaga3 foi2ko2go yefoi2ko3 yefoi2ko2go faei3ke2go-
yefoi2nafa ke3go fofa fu3go monafauyikogo yefoi4ke3go ma ke3go fainamago-
fafoma ku3go yefoko3go fofa ge2 maku2go faku3go konama ke2go i3ke2go-
moui2ke2go ke3go fofa ku3go yefofake3go yefoi2fogo uyi2go kofa mafa3-
yefoi2ke2go ge3 fafo e2i2go fofa ku3go yefoi2fokogo yefoi2ko2go eyi2go yefoi2go-
mofofai2go3 fofa ku3go yefoi2nama uyi2go koku3go yefoi2nama yefoi2nafa kofofa ge2-
yefoyigo2 e3i2nafa fe2kogo yefoi2ko2go fauoigo yefofakogo faiko2go yefoinaga2-
fafu2 yefoi2go2 faku3go faku3go ke3go yefofai2go fake3nafa yefofa foinama-
yefoi2nafa yefofa foga3 ge4 konafa fafoko3go ke3go monafaeiko2goinama-
nu2fa yeoi2ge2 goi2naga3 fofai2naga2 ku3go yefoi2go koke3go mafofa fofa yikogo-
goigo2 foi2ke3go yefoi2nafa foi2go3 yefofa ke4go mofofa ifo2fa koke2go fago-
foku3go yefoiko2go fu2fa ke3go gouge3 fofa ge3 yefofa ke3goike2 foi2go-
yefofa e2fe2fa inama foi2ko2go konafa go3 fofai2fo2fa fofai2ko3go foi2fo2fa-
kofu3fa foga4 fofai2ko3go iko2go e2i2go uyi2ko2go ne2fa-

yefoku4go yefoi2fo2fa konaga3 uyi2go foi2fo3ma ge4 konaga3 gu3-
koke3go yefofake3go yefoi2naga2 kogo yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nafa fae2yi2go fake3-
yefoi2go3 fae2yi2ko2go yefoi2nafago mofofai2naga3 eyi2go yefoi2naga3-
yefoi2naga3 foyifo2fa ei2go fakogo foigo3 yefoi2nafa u2yi2go yefoi2go-
mofofa fai2ke3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nafa yifofa ke3go yefoiko3go yefoi2nafa-
mofoma ku3go yefofa ku3naga3 u2yi2go foi2fa u3i2go yefoinaga3 ke3fofa-
koku3go mo inaga3 yefoi2nama ku3go yefoi2nago yefoi2go famo ge4-
yeoi2go3 ku4go yefoi2ko2go fafe2ma ge4 yefoi2go2 yefoinafa ke3go yefoifo2ma-
mofu2fau3yigo yefoi2naga3 ei2no2go mage3 konama2ge3 yefoi2naga3-
i2fofake2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi3fofa yefoiko2foma fe2goke3go yefoinafake3go i2naba-
foiko2go yefokoke3 fofayefo konama e2yi2fo fafofafofa foi2kofa foi2namake3go-
ife3fa fofake3go yefoi2ko3go yefoiko2go ne3koma ge4 fage3 mofofanamafofa-
mofofage2 yefoi2nafa ge3 yefoi2naga2 koko4go yefoi2go3 yefoi2naga3 fofake3go-
i2ko2go fake3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go fai2ko3go yefoi2naga3 kogo konaga3 ke2go kogo-
yefoi2ko3go fake3go yefoi2ko3go ge4 ma foma fofa monaga3 ge3 manayigo konaba-
koku3go yefoigo3 ke3go yefoi2go4 yefoi2ko2go faiko3go yefoi2ko3go mafofage3-
i3fofake3 foinaga2 ku3go ku3go konafa ke3nama yefoi2go3 goi2go3 famofomanaga3 fomago-
foi2naga2 ne2ma foi2naga2 yefoi2 ko3go fage2-
i3fomanafagu2 yefoi2ko2go yi3nafa ku3go fu3fa i2ko4go fai2naga3 ku3go yefofago-
konaga3 fe3i2go fai2ko2go i2fofagu3 konaga3 ge3 yefofa ke3go yefoi2go3 konafa-
yefoi2naga3 fe3ma gu4 yefoi2naga3 uyi2go2 yefofa i2ko4go yefoi2go4 manamago-
go3yeyigo2 yefoi2go3 fage4 konaga3 ge3 yefoi2ko4go fake3go fanama-
yefoi2ko3go fake4go yefoi2fo2go monafa managa3 yefoi2go3 fai2go3 yefoi2go3 managa3 gokogo-
kofofa yefoku3go ku4fa ku4go faku3 yefoyi2go2 fake3go fafoma gu4 mago-
igu3 yefoi2ko3go ne3fa fake3nama me3 naga3 foigo3 yefoi2naga3 foi2go2-
i3ke3go manu3fa konafakogo yefoi2ko3go maku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go fafoke3go-
yefoi2foga3 ku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoinaga3 eifogo yefoifo3fa ge3 yefoinaga3 fofago-
koge4 fake3go yefoi2ko3go fake3go make3go foi2ge3 yefoiko2go yefoigo yefoigo-
yefoigo3 managa3 fe3fa yefoigo3 ku3go yefoi2go3 faku3go yefoi2ko3go manaba-
fe3fa fofa maku4go fake3go yefoigo fafe4ma yefoi2naga2 ke4go fake3-
inaga3 ku3naga3 eyi2go2 fage3 fae2yi2go gu4 fama ge3 managa2-
monaga2 fofa fe2fa yi2go2 fe3ma ge3-

ifoi2fofa fofai4ke3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2nafa fu2fa yefoinafa foikonafa kofofa fofaku3go-
yefoi2ko2go faku3go yefoifofa kofofa ke3go ku3go kogo konamafoiko2go e2iko2go fafoi2naba-
konama2 fofake3go yefoiko2go yefoiko2go ke3go yefoinafa yefoigo yefoi2nafa yefoi2ko2go fafo-
yefoi2naga2 fu3fa yefoiko3go ke3go yefoi2go2 yefoi2ko2go yefoi2fofa ke3go ke3go fage2-
mofofake3go fake3go kofofaku3go yefoi2nafa u2yi2go gu3 ifo3fa foiko3go yefoi2ko2go-
yefoigo2 yefoi2nafa u3i2go yefoi2nafa ke3go yefoinafake3go-
i3fe3fa konama yefoi2go3 e4i2go yefoi2nafa konafa ke3go i3ke2go mafofa yefoiko2go mafofa-
konafa fu2fa konama fofa yefoi2go yefofa ke3go yefoi2nama yefoigo2 igoyefoi2go eyigo yefoi2go-
ike3go yefoyimo2 yefoi2nama eyi2go yefoi2naga2 fe2fa i2naga3 eyi2kogo yefoi2fofakogo-
kofofake3go fage3 mafofa mafofa ge4 monaga2ge3-
inama u2yi2go yefoi2nafa yefoi2naga2 fe3fa iko2go make3go i3ke3go mafu3fa konafa-
yefoi2ko2go fage3 ge4 managa3 mu3 yefoi2ge3 yefoi2naga2 foi2nafa kogo fake3ba3-
fomanaga2 ku3go yefoi2 no3ma foi2nama yefoi2ko3go mage4 yefoiko2go eiko2go mame3 nafago-
goi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go ke3go yefoi2nama koi2go3 fai2ko2go yefoi2nafa fofai2ko3go yefoi2ko3go foi2go-
yefoi2fofa ke3go ne3fa ke3go foigo ke2go kogo e2yi2go foinafa efamo-
ifofafu3fa yefoi2ko2go yefofai2ko2go maku3go yefoi2ko2go maku4nama foga2fofago
konaga2 ge3 yefoi2go4 yefoi2go foi2naga3 foi2naga2 fofai2naga2 foinaga2 foi2nama nafago-
yefoi2naga2 ke3go yefofai2gu3 yefoinafa gu3 yefoi2naga2 fofae2yi2go fago-
yeku3go yefofage3 yefofanaga3 foinaga2 fofai2ko3go yefoiku3go fofafa-
koke3go yefoi2naga3 fofake3go yefoi2nafa ke3go yefoinafa kogoinama gofabafa-
yefoi2 fu3fa i2oge3 yefoi2go manafa ike2namafofa gu3ike2go yefoi2nafa-
monaga3 gu3 yefoi2fofa fe2fa yefofa ku4go yefoi2nafa ku3go yefoi2naga3-
yefoi2naga2 nu3fa yefofake3go yefoi2nama3 fofai2naga3 ku3go-
ine2fa fofai2nama2 u3i2go yefofage3 yefoi2nama ge3 yefoi2naga2 foiku3go-
konaga3 ge3 yefoi2go ku3go yefoi2naga3 fofai2ko3go yefoi2oke3go yefoima3-
i3fofa fofafoma ge3 yefoi2naga2 ku3go yefoi2oga3 kofae2mago fofa ma naga2konama-
yefoi2go3 managa2 ge3 yefofai2naga2 foi2go foinafago yefoi2nafa u fofanu2famogo-
monama fofa fafomanaga3 ge3 yefoi2naga2 fo mafoga4-
yefokogo nu2ma nayigo2 yefoi2ge3 i2ge3 fofai2naga2 foi3ke3goyei4fofa uigo fomanafa-
goyi2go2 yefoi2naga2 e2i2go foinaga3 fofafoma foi2naga2 yefofai2go3 yefoinama fofai2naga2-
yifoma ge3yemonaga2 yefoi2go3 yefoi2naga2 foinaga2 foinafa foi2ko3go yefoi2nafa kogoba-
monaga3 gu3 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nama u3yigo2 yefoi2naga3 konafaiko2go mane3fako-
mofofa ge3 ma nafage3 fe2fa fofai2fofa eyi2go konafaeyi2go fofai2naga2 fofai2go3ma-
i3fe3fa ku3go yefoi2naga3 fu2fakogo-

ike3go fai3ke3go foi3ku3go e2i3fofa i3ke3nama ku3go yefoi3ke3go-
mofofa ge4 yefoi2naga3 fu2fa fame2 gu3 yefoiko3go mame3 nama ke3go kofoma-
fofai2ko3go yefoinafa ei2ko3go ge3 konaga3 ge3 fake3go yefoi2naga3 yefoinafa konama-
yefoi2ku3go ke3go yefoi2ko2go ei2ko2go konaga3 u2inama ku3go yeoi2naga3 ke3go-
kogu4 yefoinaga3 e2yi2go yefoigo be3 ku3go yefoi2go3 make3go yefoiko3go fafo-
moke3go ke3ge2 yefoi2nafa fofake3go yefoi2naga3 ke3go yefoi2ko3go fake3go yefoi2go-
mofofaku3 faku4go yeko4go yefoi2go foyefofa maku4go yefoi2ko2go yefoiko3go yefoiko3go-
ke3nafa foiko2go u2yiko2ge2 yefoi2go ke3go ne2mago-
i3fe2ma e2yi3ko2go yefoi2ko2go faku4go yefoi2ke2go maku3i2ko2go yefoi3ku2go yefoi3go-
fofai2go3 mame2 e3 fofamo naga3 moi2nafa konaga2 yinafa monaga3 ei2go fanafa monaba-
mofoma ku3go yefoi2naga3 ei2naga2 uyigo2 yefoi2ko2go foi2nama2 ku4go fake3go fao-
yefoyi2fofa u2yi2go foinafa yefoi2no2fa u2yi2kogo oi2nafa foi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2nafa-
monafafe3fa inama ku3go monafaiko2go mooma3 yefoi2ko2goyei3ke3go faeyi3ko2go fakonama-
yefoi2ke3go yefoi2ko3go ku3go yefoi2ku3go konafa fake3go yefoi2naga3 uyigo inafamogo-
monaga3 ku3no2 u3yigo ge3 inafa uyigo konafake2go yefoike3go fake3go-
ike3go yefoi2ke2go ke4nama efakonaga3 ke3go yefoi2naga2 e3yigo ne3famafoma-
kofe3i2ko2go fai2ko3 uyi2go2 goinaga3 e2ge22e2igo-
konafaku2go fu2yi3ko2go naifoma ku3go foi3ku3go foiku2go yefoi2ko2gofa ku2go mofofakogo-
monama ku3naga3 foyi2go2 monaga2 ke3 ku3go yeoinafa konafa ku3go gu3 fake3go-
mofofai2ko3go yefoiko3go yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko2go mafofa e3oigo yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go monaga3-
mofofai2ko3go yefoi2ko2go foiko2go mofofa ke3go fai2ko2go yefoi2ke3go yefoi2ko2go eyi2kogo
monama-
moke3nama2 foike3go yefoi2ko3go ke3naga2 ke3go yefoiko2naga3 foinaga3 foiko2go fakogo-
ike3go yefoiko2go yefoi2nafa ku3go yefoi2ko2go u2yiko2go u3yigo foifoga ke3go-
mofoga4 e3yigo e2igo foinaga3 fofamonafago ku3go-
yefoi2ko3go yefofage3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko2go ke3go foinako-
foige3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2go ifofa ku3go yefoi2gofakokogo-
konaga2 ke3go yefomako3go uyi2ko2go uyi2ko2go-
monaga3 e4i2go gu4 yefoi2ko2go ku3go fofakogo-
mofofake3go ge4 yefokogo i2ko3 fofakogo-
mofoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2go monamo-
ioke3go yefoi ke3go foi2ko3go fakogo-
mofe3fa yefoi2ke3go fake3go yefoi2go2-
mogo monaga3 u3i2ge2 yefoi2go2 monaga2-
ui2go fake3go kofofaku3 yefoi2ge2-
monaga3 e2i2go foi2fo3fa foi2naga2 ko3go-
mofoma naga3 gu2 gu3 faku3go yefoi2go-
mofofa fai2ko2go fake3go yefoi2nafa ku3go-
foma ge3 yefoyi2go2 konama2gokogo-
yefoi2naga2 gu3 i2naga2 eyi2nafa-
mofofake3go fofake3go ke3naga3-
mofofai2go3 yeoi2go2 manafago fofa mofofai2go2 fake3go yefofai2naga2 konafa-
mofofaei2nafa ne3fa yefoinama fofa mofofa fofa eyikogo *ke3go fake2go-
konaga3 fofa konaga2 ge3 fakonafafoma konaga3 fu3fa ke3go yefoi* manama-
mofofa mainaga2 yiofa2 moi2nama ku3go-

i3fofakonai2go konafafofa foiko2go einama2 foi3ke3goye inafa ke3go e2i3ke3go foi3ge3-
kofofa ku3go yefoi2ko2go ku3go yefoiko2nama e2yiko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoinafa ge3 konama-
yefoinaga2 eyigo konafafofai2ko2go ku3go yefoinafakogo yefoi2naga3 konama2 ko2go foigo3-
konaga2 ku4go foifo3kogo konafakogo yefoiko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoiko2nama fu3fakogo
yefofafofago-
yefoi2nafa ku3go yefoinaga2 ke3go ke3fofa konaga3 foinaga3 ku3go yefoi2ko3go foi2naga3-
ke3go yefoiko3go foinafaku3go mofofa efa mo4 foi2fo2fa ku3go yefoi2fofake3go yefoi2nafa-
yefoi2go3 foigo3 yefoi2nafafofa ke3go kogo kofofa yefoi2nafa fofaiku3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nafa-
mofofai2ko3go yefoi2naga3 foi2naga3 ke3 foi2ge3-
i3ke3nama ku3nafa yefoi2nama ku3nafa foi2ke2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2nafa2 ku3go yefoi2gomafau2 -
konaga3 uyi2go yefogo3 fafakogoma ge4 yefonafa yefoi2ko3go fofai2nama ku4go yefoi2naga2fofanafa-
yefofage3 yefo fake3 yefofai2go yefoi2nafa ke3go ke3go konaga3 eyi2go ne3ma nafa fanafa-
monafake3 yefofaku3go yefofake3go yefofake2go yefofa make3go fe3fa yefoi2no2ma fu2fakogo-
yefoi2naga3 fe3fa gu3 yefoi2go3 fe3fananafa ne4ga3 fofai2ko3go yefoi2nafa ne2fafofago-
konaga3 yefoi2nafa u2yi2go2 yefoi2go3 ne2fa yefoi2go3 yefoi2naga3 ke3go monama nafa-
yefoi2naga3 ne4fa yefoi2naga3 ku3fa yefoi2no2ma ke4go fofage4 yefoi2nafa yefoi2nafogo-
mofofai2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go monaga3 foi2naga3 ke3go yefoi2ko3go yefofai2ko3go-
yefoi2ke3go yefofaiko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2nafa foi2naga3 ne3ma e2yi2go konafa e2yi2kogo-
ifoyigo2 fe3ma fofafofa fe3fa iko2go u2yi2nafa u3yi2go ne3fa-
yefoi2ko3 yefoi2naga3 fu3fai2naga2 fu3fa fofai2ko3gofaku3go-
ne2ma yefoi2fama fe3fai2naga2 uyi2go2 yefoi2nafa fe3mafofako-
yefofanaga3 eyi2ko2go nu3fa yefoi2naga3 uyi2gofage3-
fofake4go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naga2 konafanu2fa ufakogo fafoma-
go gu3 foioke2nama foi2fofa konafa ku3go yefoi2nafago-
monafa ne3ma gu3 yefoi2nama ku3go yefoi2naga2 fofafage2-
kofu3fa fe3fa ku3go yefoi2naga3 e4i2go fafofama-
yefofa nu2fa ke4go yefofa foyefo yefoi2naga2 fofanu3ba-
fofane2fa ku3go ge3inafa ku3nafa konafaku2go-
yefoi2naga3 ke3go yefoi2nafa foinafake3go yefoinafamo-
fogogu3 yefofa yefoi2nafa ke3goyefoigo-
yefofa fofanaga2 fu3fa yefo yefoi2nafa u2gafa-
gu3 foi3ge3 yigo2 fofage2-

i2fofa ke3go yefoi2go3 foiko2go kogoiko2go foi2ko3go fofaku3 foi3ku3 goi2ku3go yefoi2ko2go
foi3fofago-
ifofafomagu4 eyi2kogo moeyi2go konafa goku3go foiko2go yefofa foma fofa ko3go yefoi2go3fomafokogo-
yefoi2go3 konama ku3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko2go ke3go foi2naga3 ge3 yefoi2ko2go
konama fofanafokogo-
ifoma ku3goiko2go fofa fofafe3fa ku3go moyi2go yefoi2nafa fofai2ko2go-
i3fe2fa yi3fofa mofofaifo2fa iko2go yefoiko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2go3 fofai2ko3go igo2yefoi2ko2go
yefoi3foma fofago-
foige2 fofaku3go yefoi2ko2go ku3go foi2ko2go uyi2go eyi2go fofage3 moge3 konafa eyi2go manafa-
yefoi2go2 mofofa goyefoi2naga2 yefoi2go3 yefoiko2go yefoi2naga2 ku3go monafake3go-
i3fu2fai3eyi4kogo yefoi2ko3go kogo yefoi2ko2go konaga3 uyi2ko2go yefoi2naga3 e3yigo konama e3yigo
naba-
yefoi2naga3 fe2fa e2i2go i2nafagoge3 foi2nafake3goifomago foiku3go yefoi2go2 faku3go-
yefoie*kogo goi2ko3go yefoi2nafafofa ku3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go ke3go managa3 ge3foinama konama-
konama fu3ma uyigo yefoi2nama yefoiko2go moku3go yefofage3 foigo3 yefofa ku3go fofa konaga2fofafoma-
i3fofa inama ku3go yefoi2ko2go foi2nafa gu3 yefoi2namaeyi2go foige3 yefoi2ke3go oyi3go2yefoi2naga3-
i3ke3go yefoike3go foinaga3 eyigo ku3go foiko2go yefoigo yefoiko2go fofa foi2ko2go foiko2go
manaba-
yefoifofa uyigo2 foigo konama uyigo moke2go yefoi2ko3go fofai2go2-
i3fofake2 i4ke3go u3yigo fofai2go konama foi3nafai2naga3 foyefoi4ke3go namanaga4 foi4fofago
fomafofago-
monama fofa fofanaga3 goyefofagoyefoma foma yi2ko2go ei2ko2go foi2naga2 ku3go yefoi2fofake3go
fofanaga2-
yefoi2ko3go foi2go3 konama fofake3goyemofofai2ko3go manama e2yi2go foinama ke3go fofaeyigo
fafoma-
koke2go yefoi2ko2go fofaeyi2go fofake2go monamafoma goi2ko3go e2igo2 i3naga2 ku3go u2i2naba-
goi2ke2nama foma namanama ku3go yefoi2nafa konaga3 ku3go fofai2ko2go yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go
ke3go konaga3-
yefoinama goiko2go iko2go konama fofai2ko2go yefoiko2go uyi2go eifofa iko2go konama foma
fofago-
fu2fa ike2goiko2go goi2naga2 gu3 fe3fagoiko2go fofai2ko2go foi2ko2nama fofai2ko3gofanamago-
kogu3igo3 monama fofa ku3go konamanafakogo foiko2naga3 uyi2ge2 eyi2go2 konaga3namagofago-
yefoi2nafa konaga3 konaga2 foigo2 fe3ma nama2 uyi2go fomanama2namafo-
gu3 konama gu3 konaga2naga3 ku3go fomafofagoi2nama foi2ko2go yefoigo ke3go foi2ko2nama ge3fofafofa-
yefoiko3go yefoi2fofa foiko2go ku3go yefoi2ko3go kofofa fofa konaba-
monamafofake2go faku3go yefoi2ge2 kogafa foiko2go goife2mafofai2go-
koku3go ku4go yefoi2ko2go ke3go iko3go yefoi2ko3go-
yefoi2ko3go koi2ko2go fofaku3go yefoi2nafa uyi2go gafai2ko3go-
koku4go foiko3go yefoinama e3i2nama foi2ku3go monaga3-
foi2naga3 foike2go yefoi2naga2 ku3go yefoi2go3 yefoiko2go-
yefoi2naga2 foike3go moi2go3 mae2i2go kofofa foi2oge2-
goi2ko2go yefoiko2go eyigo fofaeyigo konama namafomago-
goiefake3go yefoi2foma u2i2ko2go foi2ko2go yigo2 konaba-
kofofako2go yefoi2ko2go namafoma foi2ko2go foi2ko2go-

i2foma ku3go foiko2go yefoiko2go foiko2nama yi4kofomafofa-
foigo3 yefoigo3 foi2go2 e2inaga2 u3i2go konaga3 fofa-
yefoi2go3 foiko3go ke3go yefoi2ko3 foma foi2ko3go mago-
goi2ko3go yefoko3go fofai2go3 e2i2go yefoi2go3-
i3foga3 fofa i2ko2go foi2ko2go yefoi2go foi2ko3go yefoi2go2-
yefoi2ko2go foi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go foi2ko3go ku3go yefoi2go-
fu3fa yefofage3 foiko3go mooga4 foi2nakogo ei2ko2-
yefoiko3 foiko2go ku4go yefoi2ko3go yefoko3go foi2ko3go konaba-
ku3go yefoko3go fofa ge4 konaga3 eyi2ko2go konaga2 kogo konaga3-
yefoi2ou yefoi2ko2go foiko2go ku3go yefoi2ko2go kofofa fofai2ko3go kofofa iko3naba-
ku3fofa ke3go foi2ko2go foifofa eyi2ko2go yefoiko2go kofoi2ko2go kofofa fai2go3 yefoi2gokogo-
kogu3 fofai2go3 kofofa fofa foiko2go foi2ko2go foi2ko2go yefoi2ko2go kofofa konama fofa ke3go
monaga2-
yefoi2ko2go yefoi2ko3go konaga3 e3yigo foi2nafa fofa i2ko2go ke3go kofofai2ko2go foi2ko2naba-
mofoga4 fofa ke3go yefofa iko2go gu3 yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go2 ko fago fofa ku3go yefoi2ko2go-
yefoi2go3 foifofa ke3go konaga2-
kogu4 yefoi2ko3go goi2ko2go yefoi2foma ku3go yefoi2go kofofa uyi2go yefoi2naga2 fofa i2fofakogo-
mofofai2mo2 fofafoinama u3i2go uifofa yefoi2nama ke2go inafaku3go foi2nama foi2ko2go ku3go
kogo-
ifofagu2 yefoi2go yefoi2ko2go ku3go yefoiko3go-
i3fe2faku3go uifofa foi2ko2go foi3fe2fafoma i2ke2go foi4e2gagomo naga3 yi4go3 fofamo-
fogu3 iko2go foi2naga2 gu3 yefoi2ko2go i2ke2go foi2ko2go foi2go2 kogo foi2ko2go fofaku2go-
yefoi2go3 fofai2naga3 foi2fofa ku3go yigoi2fomafofa fomafoma-
goge4 foi2ko3go fofai2naga2 fofage3 monaga3 fofago-
yefoi2naga2 foi2naga2 fofafofa foi2nafa ke3go ke3go-
fofa yefoi2nama ku2go yefofa foiko2go fofake3go-
go foma ku3go yefofai2ko3go fofake3go fofai2nafa-
konafa ku3go yefoi2ko2go ku3go konaga2 konaga3-
monaga2 ku3go yefoi2go3 konaga3 foi2ko2go fofakogo-
yefoi2go2 fofa i2ko3 yefoi2ko2go yefoi2go2 yefoi2fo2fago-
ne2fa konaga3 foinafa ke2go foinafa ei2foma nafago-
yefoi2ko2go gu3 i2nafa foi2ko2go goi4ke3go iko2go fafofafoma-
ku3go yefoi2go2 yefoi2ko2go ge3 konama foi2go2 foi2ogu2 fofage2-
yefoi2naga2 fofa ke3go nafage3 mo nafa foma ke2go koge3 foi2go2 fage2-
fu2ma fofa foi2naga2 ku3go fofa ku3go ifofafoi2ko3go ke3go foi2ko2go fafofa-
yefoi2go2 mofofa i2ko2go foi2go2 fai2naga2 gu3 mu3 fofa ku3go yefoi2go3 mafoma-
eyi2go yefoi2naga3 gu3 konaga2 yefoi2go3 konaga3 foi2naga3 yefoi2nafa kogofa2-
yefoi2ge3 yefoi2ko3go foi2ko2go kofofafoma fofa ke3go foifo2fa fofafofa-
faku3go yefofa naga3 foi2fogo fofage3 fage3 fofaku3go uyi2go mofofago-
goiko3nama fofai2go3 fofage3 fofai2go2 fai2fo2fakogo konaga3 fofai2ko2go goi2naga3-
mofoma foi2namo kofofaiko2go foifofa ke3go-
ike3go yefoi2ko3go yefoko2go yefoi3ge2 managa3 fofai3ge3 yefoi2naga3-
monaga2 goke3go yefogo4 foinama2 fe3kogo goinaga2 yefoinaga3-
inaga3 goinaga3 goinaga3 goinaga3 foma foma goinama naba-
goinaga3 yefoko3go yefoma naga3 goigo4 nama naga3 namanaba-
gogu4 yefoinaga3 ke2go goi3fu3ma goinaga2 foinaga2 goinaba-
konaga3famo naga3 eyigo goi2naga3 goi2naga3 ke2nama namanaga3-
monaga2 goinaga3 goinai3go fokogo4 konafa konama goinaba-
mofokonaga3 foigo2 foinaga2

iku2gu3 konafai2ku2go fu2yi3go monaga3 foma namafokogo  ke3nafago-
kofe3kogo moi2fo3kogo yefoi2gu3 fe2konaga2 goi2ke3  monabanafakogo-
kofu3kogo yefoi2ge3 konafa foma fokonaga3 manama3

i3ke3naga3 koke3go yefoi2ke2go yefoi3fe2fa fu2fa  fu3kogo mofofai2naba-
koge3 foinaga2 fofai2oge2 yefoi2naba fe2fa i2ke2go fe2fa ike2go konama naga3kogo-
fafu2konaga2 goi2fe2 konama fe2kogo goi2fo3kogo yefoge3 eyigo2 fai2nama namago-
koku3go i2gu3 iko3go ku2go manafai2ke3go goife2fayefoigo foigo3 inaba-
goike2go konama fu2fa foma nafafoma3
ifoke3ge2 foi2ge3 yefoi2ke3go ku3go goifo4konama-
goige3 goigo3 ke2nafa foma ge4 konaga3 fe3i2naga3fa-
ike3go ge2 ige3 foike3go yefoinafa foko3go fai2naba-
fomo3 foga2ga2 goiko4go ke3go yefoinaga3 fe3kogo-
goigo4 foinaga3 i2ke2 yefoinama ne3ma fomanaba-
goifo3kogo ke3go yefoi2nafa goigo3 yefoinama naba-
koge4 igo3kogo foigo foike3go konaga2ma na*ba-
goi2ko4go yefoigo3 yefokonaga3 foi2go4
iku3nafa goi3ge3 ku2go yefoi3fe4kogo foi3ke2go foi3go4 goi3ge3 yefoinaga3-
koku3go yefoi2go3 yefoigo3 ku3go yefoi2naga3 ko3go foinama foinaga3 goi2naga3-
yefokonaga3 gofoke3go yefoige3 yefoi2go konaga3 ke2go foiko3go yefoigo konaga3 naba-
fu2ma goigo3 foiko3go ku3naga3 gu4 foinaga3 goinaga3 foinakonama naga3-
ifo3ma ga4 goigo3 yefoigo3 foigo4 yefoifo3kogo fe4ma ke4naga3-
gofe4kogo konama2 foigu2 yefoko2go foigo3 fofainago3
ife2fa fofai2go2 yi3gonaga3 foi3ke3go foi2ke3go fomanafe3kogo fu2fa ku3go goigo3 konaga3konakogo-
goge3 fofai2go4 yefoike3go yefoi2ge2 yefoike3nama ku4go yefoi2naga3 yefoi2o*go goinaga3yefoinaga2 foma naba-
ife3ko foigo3 goifo3kogo ko3go ke3fomo ku3go fe3mo ** naga3 go% goio*mogo3 foifo3konaba-
goiko3go goi2go3 konaba fe2naga3 e3yigo gu2i2fo4ge2 ige4 foifokonaga3 foi3naga3 foige3 foinaba-
fogu3 fomagu4 ife3kogo yefoi2naga2 yefokonaga3 fofai2nama ke3naga3 goke3go yefoi2nakogo
ne2fai2naga2-
nama naga3 fu2konaga2 fu2ma ne2fai2nama u2i2fu2fa foi2fe2ma3
i2fokofu2fa foifofafu4mo foyifokonafago foi3nafaoi3naba fooi3e,i2gu4 yefoifokonaga2 mo fonama-
gone2ba mo fe2fa fe2ifoka yifokonama fu3* mo foifo2konafa,ma  foi3fe2gu2 yi2nafu2fa-
kofu2 konafa konafafokogo goiege2 konaba fe2kogo konafa,fofa  mofe2koge2 yefoiko3-
mofofa fu2ifofa yefoi2ke2konafa fu2kogo fe2ifofa mo  fe2konaga2-
fofa fe2kogo yi2fofa koma4ko yefoi2fofa foifokonama  fe2konaga2-
inama foifoma mo fe2 mo fe2fa fu3o3ma-
fu2ma fu2fa fokogo fe3kofoga2 mo-
fafo*fu4kogo fe2konaga3 fokonama-
fu2konaka foi2fe3kogo yifoyifofa-
gofo3mo ge3 i2fo2fa oifo2fa yifokogo-
foi2fo2fa foifo2fa mofokonaba fu3nafa monafa-
yefoi2foma gu3 foi2fe3ma fu3kofoba-
fu2konaga3 yefoige2 i2fe2fama-
goge3 yi2foma foife3ko ema-
*fe2fa fu2konafa kofofa fe3konaba-
fe2gu2 yefoi2nama eyi2ma-
ife3 fa fe2fae2yifokogo-
fofai2o3ma fu2konaga3 fu2kogo-
ife2ma fu2fa mo fu3i2go-
gofe2yi2go yifofa fomofomo-
kofofa fu2fa konaga3 uyigo-
i2fe2ma yigo ne2i2fa konaga3-
fonaga2 foi2foma fu2kogo ifo2famo-
gofe2yigo fe2igo2 igo3ma-
gofonaga3 fe2inama e??-
yefoi2foma fe3 fafomo yi2fokogo-
gofe2ma fokofofa fe2konaga22-
konaga2 oife2 yifo yifogo2-
fu2konaga3 yefoi2ge2 yifofa-
fofa ne2fa yifofa fofafe2ko-
kofofa fe2i2nafa mofe2mo3
me3,namafofu2fa
mofone2mayi4
foino2ma
fe2i4fomana
monama,ne2mo   konaga3ko
fomonamafo
ne2famonaga2
fe2Iigo
fe2manaba
konai2foyi
mofoi4nafa

i3fe3fa fu3ko yefoi3o3yi2fa2 (x)kona,yfoifo e*fo2mo u3fa2 eyifu2 mo
i3fe3fa fu3ko yefoi3o3yi2fa2 (cqt,p)foifo e*fo2mo u3fa2 eyifu2 mo
kofu3ma yigo2 yefoi2go3 foigo3 goi2fo3konaga2 monamanamago,konaga3 konaga3 kofo3ba,fe2fa
fu2ma ei2go yefoigo3 yefoi2fo2kogo yefoifo2fako yefoi2fo2fa mofo managa3 foiefa goi2fo4
kofe3ma fu2fa yefoi2fo3fa fe2ma fe2fa yefoi2fo3kogo konamao[oga|a]
foi2fo3mo
fe2yi2fogo
fomafofa
fofaeIfoba
foifo2fa
foifofamo

i4fofafu2go fe2fakonaga3 i4fe2ko gofe3fa yi3fofa yefoimo3 gu3 namomo2fonafayi4go
mofoga3 fe2fa yi3fofa fu2fa yefoyi2fogo fe2ma fe2fa nu2 i2go3 oyi2go2 goi2no3ba
monaIIfe2ma fu3ma yefoyi2fokogo fokofo2ma goi2gu4 fe2fafu3kogo monaI fu3fa managa3
fu3mayei2fo3kogo fe2fa konaga3 yifo2fa fofane3fa e2i2go fe3fa fe3yi2go foi2fo2fa
gonaga3 e2i2go2 fe2fa fe2fafokogo fe2mo fofafe2ma yefoi2fo2fa foi2fo3fa fe3famo,nafa
fe2fa fe3fa fe2 ei2fo2kogo foifofage3

kofoi2foma
foinamanama
foifofago
mofomanafago
kogoifofabo
fofai2foma
kofofafomago
fokofoma
fofanamanamo

*go i2fe2 i3fe2fago fe2ma foma fe2mafoma mogo  kofomanama  foi2fomanaga3 fomafofafo*naga2-
*fofa yefokoma ge4 yegoi2fo2ko fofo3 ma fe2go  foi2fo3kogo fe2konaga3 yigo foi2fokogo konama-
fo3yigo konaga3 ne3kogo kogokogo3

i3fe3fa yigo2 yeoi2fo2fa kogo yefoyifomo fu3kogo yefoyigo3 fokonaga3 fu2goi fofanaga3 fomofo
konaga3kogo-
konama yefoi2fo2fa kofofa fomanaga3 fofakonaga3 i2fo3fa ? mana yefoi2fo4ma mo gokogo
emafoma foi2go3 fe2fakogo konama-
kofoga2 eko4go ge4 i2fo2 fe3fa konaga4 kofo3ma ke4go3

?ga3 foi2go3 yi2fo2 fafe3kogo i2fe3fa konaga3 oino3mo yifo2kogo oyiga2 yi2fou? fofafe2ma-
fe4 nama naga3 yefoi2go4 monama3 yefokonaga3 fe3fa yefoi2fo3 konaga3 fe3konaka-
fo3ma fe3fa fe2fanaga3 fe2fayei2nama3

kofoi2foma
fomanama
foinamanama
foinafana
mofomanafana
kogoifofago
fofai2foma
kofofanamago
fokofoma
fofanamanaga

*i2fe2 i3fe2fago fe2ma foma fe2mafoma mogo  kofomanama  foifomanaga3 fomafofafokonaga2
*mafofa yefofoma ge4 yegoi2fo2ko fofo3 ma fe2go  foi2fo3kogo  fe2konaga3 yigo foi2fokogokonama
*fo3eigo2 konaga2 e[o4|o]koo koko2go3
foi3fe3fa yigo2 yeoi2fo2fakogo yefoyifomo fu3goma4 yefoyigo3 fokonaga3 fu2goifofa[nafo]ga3mofokonaga3,kogo
*konama yefoi2fo2fa kofofa foma,naga3 fofakonaga3 i2fo2fako gae yefoi2[o|uo]foma mo gokogo
fe3ma foi2go3 fe2fako[nago] konama
konaga3 euko2go eugoi2fo2
*ga3 foi2go3 yifo2 fa,fe3kogo i2fe3fa konaga3 (nao3[gona]2 yifo2kogo yi[o|fo2],yi2fou2 fofafe2ma
foga3 ge4 yigo2 foma,go yigo3 fu2fa fokogo fe3fa foma,nafanama nu3 yefoi2namanama[gona]
fe4 fofa,me2,foma,naga3 yefoi2ugo2 manama2 yefokonaga3 fe3fa yefoi2fo3 konaga3 fe3konaba
*foma,fe3fa yifo2fa fe2fanaga3 fe2fa,yei2foma
i4ku3na fafonaga2 foi3nama3nafa foifo2 konaga3 fe2i3ge2 foinama2 i2nama nafanafafoma naga3nafaba i2nama-
     konaga3,nafa fu4konama goeinaga2 nu2mafoinama yefoi2nama foi2nama ku3fu3,i2fo2managa2 naba,ge2-
     goku3naga3 uyi2go fe3i2ge2 monama nafa fe2fake3go goinaga2 foinamo nafa ko3go konafago
fafokogo-
     gofe3ina fafu3 naga3 eyigo foi2naga2 ke2nafa ke2naba ne2manaba3

     ifu2nama fogo3 yefoi2naga2 gu2i3ke3go foi3ke3 yefoi3ke3go foinaga3 e2i3nama naga3 foyigo
konama2 mago-
     konaga3 fu2kogo i2ke3go fu3kogo fofai2naga3 ui2nama fe2kogo inafaku2go yefoi2naga2i2namanamafo-
     mofogo u2[fona]fafu2,kogo ne2ga2 fu2fa i2naga2 fu2i2naga3 yefoinaga3 fe2konama
naIfa,ko(na|CI)fa konama fafomafoma-
     fomanaga3 fe3,mafofa naga3 foinaga3

     ifu2konaga3 fu2fai2naImo fomanaga2i2nama naga3 uige2 yefoi3ke2go yefoi3ge2 fafofai2nama2nu3[moma] naba-
     gofu3kogo fe3fa foigo3 yefokonaga3 goinaga2 goke2go fofaigokogo3

     ike2gomo nama[eu]ko2na foifo3kogo i2ku3go yefoike2go yefoinamo ku3go yefoiko2go foi3ge2i2naga3 nu2ba-
     goge4 yefoko3na fe2konaga2 foinafake2go yefoi2naga3 fe2i2naga3 fe2kogo yefoi2nafa foinafa
foinaba-
     fofai2no3fai2ke3go yefogo4 manafa me3 nafa goinama mu2go fage3,goi2naga3 gu2 fai2naba-
     moke3go managa3 ne2ma namagu3 ke3go naga4 nafai2naba3

     i2fe3nai2nama ku3goyeoi4ke2go foiku3go yefoi2ke2go yefoiku2go yefoi2ke2go i2nama2 nafafo
kogo-
     monamanama foi2fo2ma naga3 fe2inafa fu2kogo yefoike2go yefoinamaku3go fe2kogonafa
ke3go yefoinaba-
     monafanama nu3konama foi2naga2 yefokonaga3 fe2konafa3

     i3fu2konafafomo yefoi2ku2go yefoi2gu2 foi3ke2go yefoi2ku2 nama ku2nama foko3go
yefoinafago konama2go-
     konamogu2 foinaga3 foinafa ke3go managa2 fofanaga3 foinaga3 monaga2

     i3fofame2 fai2nama3 fu2i2nama fe2oi4go fu2ma yefoi2foma fu4 i2fofamu3 foi2ne2managa2-
     gofe3fai2,naga3 fe3fa,ke2naga3 fomonaga3 foi2nafa ku4go yefoi2ke3go3

     ifu2ko yefoi2ge2 yefoi2naga3 foi2gu2 yefoi2nama ku3go gu3 yefoi3ku3go
ku2goi2nama2gofanaba-
     fofai2nafafo[gofa] nu2ma fe2ma foi2nafa ke2go fe2fa ke3go yefoinaga3 fomanaga3 foi2ko3go
yefoi2naga2-
     mofomanaga3 mofofaku3go yefoi2ke2go yefoi2fofa ke2naga3 ke2nafa nama2 fokofa
ne2managa2 foi2nayi4na-
     monama fu3fa fe2fa nu2ma fe2fafoi2namafofa3

     inama nama2 i2ku2naga3 foi2nafa ke2go fake3go i2nu2ma fe2i3ge2 foime3 nama nafa foi3ke2go-
     fofafe3 fokonaga3 fu3inafa fu2foma yefoi2go3 fonamanama3

     i3fu3kogo fofai2ko3go yefoi2foma fu3mo fe2igo yefoinaga3 foifo2kogo foinaga3 yefoi2nama
[nafo]igo,kogo-
     goge4 fofage3 ke3go yefoinaga3 fe3mo foinaga3 foinaga2 fe2inama fofafomo naga3 fe3bo-
     foinaga3 foi2foge3 yefokona foIoga gomonama* foi2go3 foiko3go i2fu3kogo yefoi2ko3go
yefoifoi2fokogo-
     gu4i2fo fu2kogo fe2monaga3 fofane2ba3

     ifofafomo ku2nama2 u3i2go i2ko3go yefoko3go yefoi4ke3go monama2 nafa i3e2*[ko?]go
goi3fokonaga3 monamanaba-
     fe2naga3 fokogo yefoinama ge3 fofanaga3 ge3 kogoge2

     i3fe2konaga3 i2fe4manafa i2go uyigo foifomo nama [no2]konafa i3fe3kogo yefoinaga3 foifoma
nafafokonaba-
     fu2kogo fu2yi2go yefoi2go3 yefoi2fe2fai2ke3go ku2go i2ke3go ke3go yefoyi2go2 foi2naga3 nafa-
     mofofa ku4go yefoi2naga3 fe2fai2naga3

     i3gofonafago fe3nama3 nafa i2fu3konama yefokonaga3 uyi3nafoma ku3go foiko2nama
foi3fofa i4ke3go fokoma-
     foi2fe3kogo yefoi2go3 foige3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko3nafa yefoiei2go yefofa mafokogo managa3foigo-
     yefoi2naga3 ge3i2nama foifo2fa3

     i2fofu3kogo yefokogo e2ma naga3 konama2 nama2 foi3ke3go i3ke2go i2fofake3go ife3konamo
i3fokoi2fomo-
     foiko2go yefonama ge4 i2naga3 yefoifo3kogo foi2naga3 foigo3 yefoiko3go fe2igo3

     i3gone2fa ku3go yefoiko3go ge3i2go foi2ko2naga3 foiko2go fokonaga3 ke2na ge2 i2ko3go
fai2go2-
     be3go foi2nago yefoi2ko3go foi2go3 gu4 yefoi2naga3 nafa nafai2nafafomo ke3go koi2naga2eyigo-
     yigo2 e3 foi2nafa ge3 i2go3 managa2 foi2fo3 foinaga3 ke3namo foiko3go foifofa foigo-
     gomofoImo foi2go3 fe3konaga2 ge3 ine2ma foyefoinaga3 foigo manamona foigo3 monama
naga2kogo-
     goinamafoi2naga2 fe3i2naga3 be3go foi2go4 ei2naga3 fofa foi2go managa3 fe3nama fe2mo-
     [kobo]fe3naga3 ui2go3
i2fogu3 yefoi2nafa eyi2no2fa foi3fu3konaIma nafai2naga2 fu3i2naga2 fe3i2 foi2no2faku3go manafage2-
u3i2go3 fe3fa i2ko3go yefoi2naIma u3yigo yefoi2fo2fa foi2oke3go yefoi2ko2go yefoi3ke3go
yefoi2ko2nabage2-
konaga2 ke3go ku3nafa foiko2go foifo3 ke3go yefoi2go3 konaga2 eyinama foinama yefoinaga2foinaIba-
konaga3 ge3 fe2i2ko2naIma naIma nafafofaku3go yefoiko2goyefoi2ko2nama foiko3go foi2ko2go ke3go
fai2naba-
yefoi2*ko fo naga3 foiko2go yefoi2ko2go ke3go yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2fo2fa ku3go yefoiko2nafa
fafofa-
foi2fo3 foi2ne2ma foiko3go ne3fa yefoi2ge2 fai2go3 fe2fa fa i2naga3 foiko3 naga3 namo nafai2ko3goba-
yefoi2o3ge3 yefoi2naga3 foino2ga3 i4fe4 fai2naga2 foi2go3 fa fake4go foinafa i2naga2 ke3naga2 nafa-
fu2 foige3 fe3fa i2oge2 eyigo2 foi2naga2 nafa fai2go3 yefoi2naga2 e2yi2go ke3nama naba-
fagu3 ku3nafa foi2no2ma fa i2ko2go fe3fai2go3 fai2go2 foi2go3 yefoi2go3 yefoi2go2 yefoi2naga2 naba-
mofoga3 ku3 yefoi2fu3 fafoma fe3 fafofa naga3 gu3 yefoi2naga2 ne3ma yefoifo2fa uyigo fakogo-
gofage4 nu3ma naga3 nu4ma foinaga2 foiko2go yefoi2naga2 ke3i2naga2 ku3naIinaga2 ne2fako-
yefonama naga2 gu3 foi2ge3 yefoi2naga3 naoyi2go fu2 fane2fa nu3go uyi2go2 i2nu2mainama-
nu3ga3 foi2naga3 eyi2go fe3fa i2ko2go e2inama foi2naga3 nu2fa fake2nafa iko2go inama nabako-
yefofe3fa yefoi2naga2 ne3ma fofa naga2 ku3go yefoinaga3 yefoi2o3ge2 fofai2go3 fai2naga2 fanafa
koba-
monamo gu3 fa foinaga2 yefoi2naga3 nafa i2naga2 ke3go foinafa fake3go yefoi2naga2 einafa foinaga2fa*mo-
yefoi2naga2 fu3fa yefoi2naga2 eyi2go2 fake3go foi2nama nafa yefoinafa ku3go foinaga2 i4nama naga3naba-
mofofai2naga2 gu3 foi2naga3 gu4 yefoi2naga2 ei2nafa eyi2go monaga3 namo fane2fa u2 foinaga2-
igaI2 ku3go yefoko3naga3 foi2naga2 u*go2 i2naga3 gu3 foinaga2 nafai2naga2 fo fa ma fofa konaga2-
yefoi2naga3 ne3fa inaga2 yefoi2naga2 gu3 yefoi2naga2 ne2ma uyigo2 yefoi2go ge2 yefoi2naga3-
nu2ga2 yefoi2nafa nu2ma yefoino2gofa yefoinaga2 ke3go yefoinaga2 uyigo yefoi2ku3go yefoinaga2nama-
monaga2 naIma naga2 yefofa manama naga2 ge4 fai2go3 fai2naga2 fe3i2naga2 fu3 yefo yefoi2naga2ne3ma nafanaba-
monaga3 gone3ma fofagu4 e2inaga2 ke3go yefoi2naga2 foi2naga2 nafa ne2ga foi2nafa ge3 fai2go4-
yefoi2naga3 u2yi2go yefoi2nama ne2fai2naga2 eyi2ko2go fafe3fa foi2naga3 yefoi2naga2 fe3fa konaga3fafoba-
fe3konaga2 yefoi2nama foinaga2 ke3go fai2naga2 ge3 uyi2go yefoi2fa ke3go yefoi2nama eyinaba-
inaIma nafake3nama gu2i2naga3 ke2Igo3

i3fofana*nama foi2gu3 yefoi2naga2 ge3 i2nafa i2ko3go yefoi3ke3go yefoi3ge3 faime2 nafai3ke2nama-
fofagu4 igu4 nafai2nama gu4 foinaga2 me3 gu2 yefoi2fa ge3 yefoi2fa ne3ma fakonama fafafo-
yefomae2ga3 foi2naga2 ne3ma fai2naga2

i3nafai2ga3 fe3i3naga3 foinaga2 ku3go i3ke3go foi3ke4go yefoi2naga2 eyi2go2 foige3 fafakogo-
fu2i2nama foi2fo2i2naga2 u3i2naga2 yefoi2naga2 e2ge3 yefoi2go3 yefoinaga2 foinaga2 nama fai2naga2fai2go3

i3foge3 foino2ga2 e3i2naga2 ne3fa fanaga2 ge3 yefoi2naga2 ge3 fai2naga2 ne2fa fakogo fafaba-
inama ge3 inaga2 ei2namo nafai2nama ge3 yefofa ke3go foi2naga2 ge3 fage4 ne2mana*-
gou3Ifa yefonaImo naga2 foi2naga nu2ga2 go yefoi2naga ne2ga nabanaga ne3fane2ma3

i3fofanama foi2nama ifo2kogo yefoi2naga2 inafafofa inamafofa foi3ke3go yefoinama foinama
einafamonaba-
fonaga2 foi2naga3 eyigo fai2naga2 fage3 fau2i2naga2 yefoinafa ku3go ei2go fai2ko4 fai2naga2 go-
nu2ga2 foi2naga3 ge3 yefoi2nama nama nama naga2 nafama nama fofafoma3

i3nafage3 fai2nama nu2ma foi2naga2 yefoi2naga2 nu2fai2fa kogo inama ge3 i2ko3go faiko3go ma
nafakofa-
goge4 fo naga3 e2yi2go2 foinaga2 yefoifa ne3ma ke3go yefoi2nago foi2ko3go fai2go3-
kogu4 yefoi2nafa ke3go eyigo yefoi2naga2 ke3go fai2go3 gu3 yefoi2naga2 ke3go fake2go-
goi2go4 fai2naga2 eyi2go fe2i2naga2 eyi2nafa u2yi2ko2go yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko3go fame2fa-
foigo3 fa ke3go iko4go fai2go3 foiko3go foi2ko2go ke3go yefoi2go3 e3yigo yefoinafa-
fe4 fa i2fo3 ne3ma yefoi2no2ga2 foi2fo3ma ke4go foi2naga2 ke3go ke3go iko3go fane3ba-
gofe3 konaga3 u3i2go fe2i2no2fa u3i2nama foi2naga3 foinaga2 ne3ma nafafo fa naga3 fe2inaba-
konaga2 ifo3konaga2 e3^fa fofanaga3 foma3

i3fofafanaga3 foi2naga2 nu3fa i3ke3naga2 foi3ge3 i3fofagu2 foi2gu3 foi3ke3go yefoi3ne2Imo nafai2go-
mofofa ge3 fai2go3 mafofai2go3 eyigo foi2go4 fake3go fai2no2ga2 e3yigo yefoinaga2 nafago-
monaga2 ge4 yefoi2go3 ge3 inaga2 fofanaga2 foi2ko4go e3i2naga2 eyi2go2 fane2ma3

i3monafanama ge4 yeoi2nafa ge3 i2naga3 inaga2 ne2fa nafa moi2naga3 nai2ke3go foi3ke2nafa foi3ge2-
moko*go ge4 ei2naga2 ne2fa fafoma gu4 yefoi2naga2 foi2naga2 ge3 yefoi2naga2 foi2go3-
nu2ga3 yefoIga3 foi2naga2 ge3 yefoi2go4 foi2naga2 me4 nama fofa fafomo4 foinaga2 foma-
monaga2 ne3fa eyi2go foi2naga2 foi2nafa naga3 fe2igo ge2yi23
i4fofage3 yefoi2go3 goi2naIma nnama ^fafago foiko3nafa foma naga3 eyi4go-
monaga3 fonama yefofa i2naga3 foinaIfa fofa fofanaga3 fe2fa foinama-
foma ke3nama ge4 foiko3go foiko3go foinaga3 foigo fokogomo-
yefoi2ko3go fe2i2naga2 foinaga2 foinama ke3go inaIba fomanaba-
foinaIma foi2fokogo foifokogo foinafa foi2go4 foinama naba fogoga2 fogo-
ke3nafa foiko3go foi2go3 yefoi2ko3go fofai2ko3go foigo3 fomanaba-
inaga3 fofai2ko3go yefoifo2 fa nago3 i2go3 yefoi2go3 foiko3go manaba-
monaIma fo ma foiko3go fe2fa yefoike3go kofokogo yefoi2go4 konaIma naba-
monaga3 fofa foi2go3 yefoi2go3 fo ke3go iko3go yefoi2ge2 yefoi2namago-
konaIma nafa ke3go yefokonaga2 konaba3

ike3go yefoigo3 yefo2fa yefoi2go3 foigo2 yefoi2go3 yefoi2ko2go fe2igo*-
koko4go yefo foike3go ke2go yefoi2go3 yefoinaga2 foiko3go foigo3 mafoma-
mofoma naga3 ke2go me3 yefoi2go3 foi2go3 foinaga3 eyigo foigo3 kogo-
mofonama nama nafa ge3 foiga3 foi2ko3go yefoi2go3

i3fonama nafafe2ma foyigo foiko2go yefoi2ko3go foi2ko2go i3ke3go foi3fobakogo-
mofofafofa u2*kogo fu2fa yefoi2go3 yefoi2go4 yefoi2ko2naga2 foinaga2 foma nabake2-
yefono4ma u2 fofai2no3ma ge4 yefoma fe3 manafa ge4 yefoi2go2 inago naba-
monaga3 nafa i2go2 ge3 konafake2 naga3 foi2nafa fe2kogo ke3go ne2ba3

i3fofake2go fofa foinafa go monaga3 u3i2go yego3 yefoi2go2 yefoi2go3 yefoi2nanaba-
yefonaga3 foma naga3 fe3fa i2fo2kogo yefofa i2fo2fa foi2go4 konafa naga3 fokogo-
mofofai2ko3go managa3 eyigo2 foi2ko3go yefoiko3go yego3 manaIma nafa mogo-
konaIge2 fake3go yefoImanafa3

yefonaga2 yefoga3 fofake4go konaImaIgo iko3go yefoi3fofa ke2go foifo2ma foyikogo foigoge3-
e2oigo yefoi2go4 fai2go3 foi2ko3goi2go2 fai2ko2go yefoi2ko2go foiko2go foiko2go fafo-
iko2naga2 ku3go fofe2ma foi2ke2 goi2ko2go i2ko2go fe2ma naga3 e2oigo eyigo foi2go2-
ifoyi2go ke3go ke3naba3

i3fe2fai2ko3go foi2fe2Iga3 nai2go foi3ke3go i2fofai4ke2go foi3ke3go fai2go uigo-
goku4go fu3i2ko3go yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naga2 foiko3go eyi2go goike3go nu2manaba-
monama naga3 fofaku3go fe2i2go3 monafa foi2naga3 foigo3 yefoi2go3 fofanama nafa ne3fago-
inama nama fe3i2go2 foi2fo2kogo fe2fa fofa ke3go yefoi2ko2go fe3ba3

i3naIma nafa i2fo2fafoma foi2naga3 foinaga2 foigo3 fake3go foi2fo3ma foifo2ma i2namanaga2go-
mofoma nama nafa nama mo nafai2no3ma nafaku3go foi2o3ge2 yefoIga3 foigo3 ge3 nafa nama-
monamafofa foi2ge4 yi4ko2go mooyi2ge2 foi2fo3ma ke3go ku2nafa3

i3naIma nama faku2nama foi2oke3go yefoi2nama nama naba yefoiko2go namanaga3 yefoi2ke2go
foi3namago-
monaga2 fofanaga3 yefoi3ke2go yefoi2go foi2no2fa ke3go foi2go3 foiko2go nama nama foi2ko3go-
monaga2 nafa e2yi2go fofane2ga2 foi2go3 fofanaba3

i3foba nai2naga3 fofai2ko2go foi2ko2go foi2go3 foi2ko3go i2ko3nama foino2ma ui2fo2ma yefoi2go-
monama naga2 fofai2no3ma foi2fo2kogo yefoi2o3ga3 foiko3go yefoi2go2 foi2nafa foi2ko2go3

i3nafai2ko3go yefoi3nafa foiko2go foi3nafa naga3 foi2naIga3 fu3kogo goifo2 i2nama fobafoba-
monaga2 foi2nafa fai2ko3go foi2nama foi2ke3go yefoi2nafa i2ko3go ei2go2 foifo fomanafa-
gomu3go nafanaga2 ge4 foi2ge3 yefoi2ge2 foi2ne2ga3 goi2fo3mo foi2go3 fomago3

i3fofanama ku3go yefoi2naga3 go foi2ko3go yefoi2nafa fe2kogo foifo2kogo fomafomagoifo2i3-
goifo3 ma naga3 foi2nama foi3foma naga3 goke4go yefokonama goigo4 fu3ma foio4fa-
monama naga2 yefoi2naoi2go4 goi2 foi2nao3ge3 foi2ko4go fofanaIma nai2ge4 nama namafokogo-
gonama naga3 foi2go4 igo3 ui2nama foiko4go yefoi2go3 foi2go3 yi2namago ***goi2go-


i2fo3nafa fe2 fofa foi3nafa foinafanaIma go i4fe3fa foigo3 yefoma mo4 naba-
fonama fomonafa foi2o3gu2 yefoi2go3 foi2naga2 yefoi2nafa foi2fo2fa foigo fomanaga3-
yefoi2fo3ma nama gu4 foma nama naIga3 foi2go3 fai2fo3kogo ku4go yefoinaba-
fu2kogo yefo fofo4kogo foigo3 yefoi2ko3go foi2go3 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2go naba-
monaga2 naIga3 foi2go2 konaga3 foinafa ne3ma foi2ko2go foi2naga3 fe4fakogo-
monaga3 fofa fo naga3 foi2nako2go fe3yi2go3

i3fe3i2go3 foo4i2go yefoiko3go fomo3 naga3 foifo2ma foi3ke2nama foi3namago-
fofe3ma foi2nama naIga3 foinaga3 foi2nafa foi2nama fomanafa i2ko2go e2i2 naIga3-
mofonaga2 nama *** foi2naga3 foi2naga3 e3i2naga2 foi2ke3go yefoi2ke2go-
konaga2 gu4 foi2ke3go fomafoma3

ife2ma naga3 fokoko3go foigo4 yefoi2go2 fafokogo eyi3go fofe2mo naga3 fofai2go-
konaga3 nafa fofai2ko3naga2 foigo3 fu4fa yefoi2ko3go yefone2ga3 foigo3 yefoigo-
kofe3igo fogo foike3go ke3go konaga3 ke3nafa ke3go yefoi2naga3yeinaba-
monaIma naIma naba goi2ko3naga2 yefoi2ko3go ke3naga3 nafanaga2


i3fe2konaga2 foi2ko3go yefoi2ko3go fofai2ko3go yefoi2naga2 gu4 yefoi2ko2nama naga3 naba-
monaIma foi2go3 gu4 yefoiko3go yefoi2go2 ke3go yefoi2go3 yefoi2go3 ke2nafago-
konaga3 e3Ima ke4go ge2i2ko3go ke2naga3 ke4go yefoi2naga2 foinafakonafa-
monaga3 foma naga3 ge3 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2go4 yefoi2fo3kogo yefoinaba fofanaga3 naba-
mo namanaga2 naga2 nafa yefogo4 yefoifo2 nama naIga3 fofa ne2fafoma3


i3fe2managa3 nama nafa ke3gofofai2ko3go yefoi2ko2go yefoinaga3 fe2yiko2go manaImanafa-
managa3 e3i2naga2 fe3fa yefoko3go fe2fa i2ko3go yefoi2naga3 ku3go yefoi2fo2fa i2naga2-
o foga3 fofa fe3fa ke3go yefoi2go3 e2inaga2


gofe3fa i2fo3ma fofai2go4 ke3naga2 fofa ke4naga3 ku4go yefoi2ko3go mafoinaga2-
monaga3 foma foi2naga2 foike3go yefoi2ko3go ko4naga3 yi2ko2go ke4 naga3 ke4go3


i3ke2naga3 ku3go foinaga3 ke4go yefoi2go4 fa i2ko4go ge4 fafoma ko4go yefoi2go3-
goke3nafa e2yi2go2 e2yi2go fe4fa yefoi2ko3go yefoino2mo naba fe2mo3



i3fe2konaga2 naga3 iko4go yefogo3 foi2ko3go yefoi2no3ma nafa foi2ko2nafa fofai2ko3go yefoiko2go-
gu3 i2ko3nafa naga3 fe3fa i2fo4kogo yefoga3 goi2go3 yefoi2go4 goi2nago yefogo3 yefoi2naIba-
gu4 yefoo3i2naga2 fofa i2naga2 nafafoma ke3fofa fu3kogo3


i3fofafoma ku4go foi2ko3go2 monafa naga3 ku4nama foi2ko2go yefoi3ke3go konafai2ko2go foi3ke2go-
inama naga3 foi2no3ma foifo2kogo namanama3


ike3foma u3 i2ko3go foiko2nama e2yi4go2 yefoi3ke3go yefoi3ge4 i2nama foi3fe4 ma nayi3go-
foma fe4ma foi2ko3go yefoi2kogo yefoi2ko3go ke3naga3 foi2ko4go foinaga3 e4i2go2 fe2fa-
monaga3 ke3naga3 e2yi2go fai2ko3go yefoi2ko3go ei2naga3 ei2yi2fofa ke2naba3


i3ke3 ku3naga2 yefoi2naga3yei2nama ke3go e2yi2go3

ike3o foi2go3 fai2go ku3naIga3 ke2go yefoi2ko3go e2i2go fai2ko2go yefoiko2go manamanaba-
iko3nafa monaga2 nama foinaga3 ku3go yefoi2ko2naga3 nama yefoi2naga3 fe2fa i2ko2go yefoi2naba-
mona nama naga3 foi2ge3 nafa ke3go fe2fa foinaga3 ke3nama fai2naga2 fe3 konaga2-
ifo2konamafokogo foi3ge4 foi2naga3 ne2ga3 foinaba foiko3go yefoigo3 yefoinaga2 eyi8-
go fe3fa fake3go eyi2go fe3 fane2fa uge2 konaga3 fe3fafoma fo i2naga2 ke3go konaga3-
goi2ko3naga e2yi2go2 fonaga2 fe2fa3


i3fofago i2ko3naga2 u2 i2ke2go fe2iui3 foioge2 yefoi2ke2go foinamanago nu2ga2 yefoi2ko2go-
fo fonafoma fono3fa fofai2fo2fa fofa fe2fa efa nafa ke3go goi2ko3go einafa i2nama foi3ge2 i4naba
naba-
yefoi2fe2fa yefoi2go2yenaIga3 foifofa ifo2fa foi2nafa foiko2nama foi3nafake2go nafai3ke2go-
goge4 fe2i2go3 foi2nama nafa ike3go foifo2fa eyigo nafanaga3 ne2ma nafa i2nabakonaba-
goi2go3 fafoma ne2ga3 e2i2go fe2i2naga2 ne2ma naba ge3 i2naga2 ke2nafa foi2naga3 konafakogo-
o foinama naIba fonama nafa nafafoma naIga3 fofai2naga3 foigo namago3



i3me3*ge2 goi3ke3go i4ke2go e2inama yefoi3ke3naga3 foigo3 foigo fai2ge2 fe2konaga2 nafanama ke3go-
konama foi2ko3go foifo3kogo yefoi2ko2go foie2ge2 foi2fo2mafa nafa i2fo3ma ke3 nafa nama eyi2go2goi2fofa naIma fofa-
uema fonafa ema naga3 foifo3mogo3


i2fe4mo fofai2ko3go fu2naga3 fe4kogo yefoi2ke3go ei2fokogo yefoko2go yefoinafago fai2nama nama
nafafoba-
goe3yi2go fo monaga3 fe3nama yefoi2naga3 e3i2nafa foinama nu2 mo naga3 eyi2go ke2fo foi2fofa
ke3go ke3go-
monama fe3 ge4 foifo3mo naga3 foinaga2 foinafa e2ma naga3 nafaefa gu4 i2fe2fa foi2fo3 fa i2naga3nafa-
fe2mo gu4 yefoi2ge3 mofoi2nafa foi2go3 ne2ma fanaga3 nafai2naga2


i3fe2mofomo fe3nama i2fo3fa yefoi2go3 fai2ge3 yefoi2nama fe2mo gu3 yefoi3ge2 mame2go ge2i2fo2ma
foinafa-
kofe2mo naga3 foigo3 yefoi2naga3 ne2 foi2naga3 fe3 konaga3 nai2go fafo fe2kogo fe2inaga3



i3fe3kogo yefoi2fo2kogo fe3nama ge2 i2fe4ma oigo fu3kogo fu3konaga3 yefoifo2nama foinaba
foike3go yefoigo-
konaga3 fe2fage3 foi2ge4 fe2i2fo2fa fu3 yefonaga3 fe2fo i2nafo2fa i2fo2kogo fe2ma fe2ma i2nafa
fanamanaba-
gofu2naga2 yefogo3 yefonaga3 fu2fa fai2fo3nama fe2konaga3 foinaba fe2monaga3


i4fofafe2ma fe3kogo yefoiko2go fai2ome3 fa i2fo3fa fai2fe3fa fai2ke3go i2foige2 fai3ke3go yefoi3ke3go
mafo-
gofe3 fai2fe3 fafe2fa foIga3 yefoi2fu3go yefoi2fe3kogo fafe3 fa i2ke3go fe2i2ge2 foi2ke2nama nafa-
fe2fa ema mo naga3ne2Iga3


i3ge3foma fofai2ko3go yefoi2ko3go ku2go yefoi4ke3go eyi3nama ke3go yefoi2fo3fa i3foma naga3e2i3ne2ma-
kofoma nu2ma fu2fa yefoi2go3 yefoi2 fe2fa ke3naga3 yefoi2go fe2i2naga2 fe2inama fe2i2nama ne2ma
nafafoba-
go fe3ko fe3naga3 fe2fa fofai2naga3 ei2naga3 ego4 fai2fo3 naIga3 foi2ko3go yefoi2ge4 make3go-
go*nafa fe4 mafanaga3 eyi2go2 fe3fa3


i2nu2managa3 yefoi2fo3namo fu2ifo2fa fai2fafe3fa yefoi2nama ke2naga2 yi4foyigo fe2ma naga3yi2gokogo-
konama fu2fa ku3nama foike2go fu2i2ge2 nu2Iga3 uyi2go2 fafu2ma naIma foi2fo2kogo3


ife2nama fu4konaga3 ei2naga3 foife2ko foi2ke3go yefoi2naga3 fe2i2naga2 fu3ma yefoi2ge2 yefoi3naba-
goi2fo2ogu2 yefoi2naga3 fe2fai2ga3 eyi2go2 fai2ge3 yefoi2nafa fe2yigo fai2fe2ma fai2ke3go fai2naga3-
konaIma fe2ma fe2i3ge3 nama naga3 foma monafa namafokogo3


i3fe2konaIma fu2iko2go yefoi3fe2kogo ei4fe2fa i2ke2naga3 ei3eku2go manaIma ku3go yefoi2ge3monaImago-
ifofa e2gu2 fai2ke3go fafe2ko ne2fa ne2ma fai2fo3kogo foifo3 fafonaga3 foi2ko3go3


ife2fa fe2fa fafu3fa fu2ma i2e3yi2 go managa3 umafofa ife3kogo ige3 fu3i2go fai3ke3go yefoi2naba-
monama nafa ne2fa fomo nai2ge2 konaga3 efo4 managa2 foio3ga2 fe2fa fafe2fai2naga3 fe3i2ko2go
fafokonama-
gofu4naga3 nafai2fo3fa eife2fa i2fe3kogo fai2ke3go foi2naga3 ne2fa inaga3 foiko3go3


i4fofane3ma foifo2fa faku3go fai2ku3go u4i2go foinama yefonama inama ui2ke3go yefoi2ke2 foi3go-
goinaga3 foi2naga3 ne3ma yi2nama nu2fa uyi2go foi2naga2 foi2no2ma fe2ma ei2go ne2i2naga2 yefoi2go-
fu2konaga3 ui2naga3 eyinafa foi2ku3go foinafa foi2naga3 yi4fonafa foinaga2 foi2naga3 ke3go
yefoinafa-
goi2fo3ma ne3ma nai2naga2 ne3ma fe2yi2go3


i3nafamu2nama faku2naga3 foiku2naga3 fu2yi3go yefoi3ne3ma ui2naIma yefoi3ke2go yefoiko3go
make3go fakogo-
gomu2fu4 fa i2fo3mo naga3 yefoi2mo4 foi2ke3go yefoinaga3 foinama foi2nama nayi2go make3go
yefomonaga2-
koge4 nu3kogo ku3naga2


iku3go yefoi2naga3 ku3nama fu3yi4go foi2ke2go i3fe3kogo foi3ne3ma foi3ke3go fai4ke3go foinafa-
konaga3 fu3ma yefoigo3 konaga3 foi2ke3go fu3mo naga3


i3fe3yi2go fai2ge3 yefoi4ugo4 fai2fo2kogo i2fe3konaga3 i3foma ku4 yefoi3fogo3 i3foi2go3 manaIma
nafago-
inama nama ge4 fe3i2fo2fa ege4 yioma naga3 yigo3 yinama nako u3 yefoige3 inamanaba-
kofu3 naga2 foi2naga3 ge4 inaga3 foi2o3ge3 foi2naga2 gu4 yefomo3 foi2fo3kogo3


i3fe3konaga3 fu2fai2o3ge2 nama nafai2nama foike3go fe3fa ife3i yefoi2ke3go i3fe2ma namanafa-
goi2fe3ma fu4ko fai2nama nama nafa mo naga3 ego4 fofa ke3go fage3 fai2nama naba ke3foba-
e4i2go fai2ko2go ke3go fai2naga3


ife2konaImafomo ma ge3 yefoinaga3 foi3ge3 einaga2ma ku3go yefoifoma fu3fa yefoifokogo iko2go-
fonaga3 fe3i2no3mo fai2naga3 ei2nafai2nama fe4kogo yefoi2fo3kogo yefoi2go3 fe2mo nama naga3 fofa-
gofu3fa i2o3ge3 fe2fai2ko3go yefoi2naga3 ke3nafa fai2me3 nama foi2naga2 yefoi2naga3 fomanaba-
ife2namanamagu2 yefoi2naga3 gu3 eyi2go2 fu3fai2ge2 yefoi2fo2fa i2naga3 e2yi2go manafaema-
monaga2 ego4 fe3 i2ge4 yefoi2go3 fai2go4 foi2go4 fai2ge3 fafe2ma naga3 foinaga2 nafa-
ike3go foi2go3 fe4mo fai2naga3 ge3 foinaga2 fe4kogo yefoi2fo3kogo foi2naga3 foio4*go-
goi2fo3fa yefoi2naga3 fofai2nafa foIma fokogo foi2naga3 foinafanafa fafonamago3

i4fofafomanamafoba foige3 yefoinama naIma foinaIma foi3ke3go yefoi2nakofokogo ge3 i2fo3go
manafa fai2nama emanabafoi2go-
ifo2nama naga2 yefoinama goge4yeinaIIma foinaga3 foi2ge2 fai2ke2go foifo2fa nama nafa nama
naga3 foi2nafa ge3foma-
monama naga3 fe2inama foi2fo3konama yefoi2naga2 fofafofa fofanaba3


i4fe2yifo2kogo i2fo3konama foiko3go make3go yefoi2oge2 foie2ma foi3fomanaga3 foifo2kogo foinaga3foifa namafogu2-
kofe3ma foinaga3 foiko2go foifokonaga3 yefoi2go3 mage4 yefono3ma foiko3go yefoi2ko3go
foiko2nama nama foi foio3fa nafa-
ife3fage2 fafe3fa fe2yi2go fe3konamaIkonaga3


i4e2ku2 ifo2kogo fai2fo3kogo foiko3go fane3fanaIba fu2yi2fofa foi3ke3go yefoinaga3 foinama nama
nafa foino2fa-
go fe3kogo yefoi2fo3ma fe2fainama fofai2naba fe2i2naba fokonafa uyi2go yefoi2ke3go foifoma
foinama ifoi2go-
konaIma nama foi2naga3 fe2i2naga3 e2yi2fofa fe2fai2naga3 fofage2


i3fofanaga3 foifo2fa foiko2gonama nama nafa i2ko2go yefoi2ko3go fofanama naga3 i2ge3 konafa
foifoma nama foi3ge3 mafo-
foma fu3ma foifo3 ge4 fofai2go3 foifofa fe2inaIma foinama yefoinama foi2nama nai2fo fai2ko2nafa
manaba-
mofofake3go foifu3kogo namafa fofage3 fomafoma3


i3fomanaga3 foinama nama foi2fofa ku3go yefoi2ke3go foike2go yefoifoma yefoiko3nama
manamanafa i4e3 fafafoma-
konama nafa gu4 yefoinaga3 fe2ma yifofa foi2ofu2ma fofake3go yefoi2naga3 foi2nafa foi2naga3fofafo-
*nama nama foi2go3 fooi2go foike4naga3 fofa ike2go i3fe3fa i2fe3ma managa3 ge4 yefoi2nama naba-
konaga3 efa fai2go3 fai2naga3 efanaga2 yefoi2naga2 fu3ma foi2nafake3go yefoi2nama fofai2naba
nama-
monamanaga3 ku3go fage4 fofai2nama foi2naga3 yifoma fomanaga3 goifo4ma3


i3goke2nama eyi2ko2go foiu2fago ie3i3ge3 fai2go fai2mo4 yefoi2fokogo fai2oku2go i4fe2yifoma
foi4naba-
konaga3 yefoi2fo3kogo yefoi2nama foi2naga3 yefoi2naga3 foi2nama e3yigo foi2nafake3fane2fayeyi2naba-
fai2naga3 eyi2go2 fe2kogo foine2ma nama foinamago fofanaga3


i3fofanaga3 foinama yefoinaga2 eifofa inamanafa fe3fa i2naga3 ei4i2fe3mo foi2nama nayinama fafo-
foi2naga3 foi2naga3 nai2go managa3 fofanafa foi2naga3 fe3kogo foi2naga3 foi2naga3 foinama nafago-
goi2naga3 nafai2nama foi2naga2 yefoi2naga3 fe2i2naIma foi2nama nafa fe3kogo yefoi2nama foinafa
fai2fa fafofa-
fofai2go3 fage4 fafonama fe3ma3


ifoi2namago fai2ge3 fai2ko3go foigo2 i3fe3fa yefoi3ge3 yifofa foi3naga3 fofa i2fo3ma foi3ku3go
yefoinaba-
foi2ga3 nafai2o3ge2 yefoifo3fa foinama nama foige3 foinaga3 nafa foinaga3 foifofa yefoifokogo
fafoigo-
gofe4fa fe4 nafai2ko3go3


i3naga2ma foigo3 fai2naga3 fofu2n nama nau yi4go3 yi4ko2go foi3fe3kogo foi2nafake2go yefoifofa
foi2go-
goi2fo3fa ke3go yefoi2go3 fofai2go4 foi2naga3 nama yigo2 foi2naga3 nafa fafoma naIma namanafako-
gogu4 yefogo3 foma naIga3 foi2fo3 fa foinaga2 nama nafa foi2naIga3 naga3 fu2kogo foine2ba-
konaIga3 fe3fa ifo3nama u2i2 fake3go foi2naga3 eyi2naga3 foinaga3 foinaga3 namanamanafa-
fu3fa i2go3 yefoi2naga2 ne2ma nama fofanama naIga3 foi2nama3


i3fofamanaImago foifo2 yefoi2ko3go yefoi2naga3 foi2nafa yefoi4fe3fa yefoi2naga3 foi3nafafoma fai2e
foi4ema-
konaga3 ne3ga3 foi2ge3 e2i2go yefoi2naga2 foioke4go yefoi2naga3 eyi2go2 ne3manaba-
yefoi2naga3 naIma fafoma e2bago foinaga2


foi4namanafa fofai2naga3 foi2nama foi2ko4go iku3go yefoi2ko3go foige3 i3 ke3go ifu2 faino2ba-
yefofa naga3 fofanaga3 foigo4 fake3go yefoinaIma gokonaga3


i3fe2fai2go foinama naImafofa foi2ko3go fe2i2nama ku4go foigo3 ino3ma foifomagu4 yefoino2fa-
fonu3fa fe3fa nama nafafoIga3 foinago2 foinaga2 e2i2go2 yefoi2naga2 eyigo yefoinaba fama-
fomanaga3 fe3ma nafai2naga2 foigo3 nama naga3 foinaga3 foi2go3 fai2ko4go yefogo% naga3-
konaIma naga3 foi2naga2 nama naga3 fe3kogo3


i3fofa i2fo3kogo yefomo4 naga3 foma naga3 foifo2fa i4ke3go foigo4 konama foinai2fo2fa fofa-
gofe3fa i2go3 fai2mo4 foma naga3 foinaga3 ei2naga2 fofanama fofake3go yefoinaga3fomo-
fanaga3 ne3fa foinaga2 foi2nama foinaga3 fofanaga3


i3fofanaga3 namafofa nu3ma foi2fo4kogo famonama fai2go3 foi3ke3go yefoi2ke2go foina namanaba-
fofai2naga3 ge4 fanaga2 nafa ge4


i3fofanaga3 i2fu4fa fai2naga3 inaIma gu3 yefoinaga2 nama nai2nafa gu3 yefoi3ke3gofakogo-
gofe3fa ge4 yefofa faku4go yefoi2naga3 ke3go i2naga2 yefoi2ko4go fai2naga3 foi2nafa kogo-
gogu3 ifo3 foiko3go yefoi2go3 foinaga3 fofanaga3 fe3i2naga2 fai2go3 fainafa i2ko3go-
ike3fofa konaImafoma i3fe3ma goinaga3 foifokogo goiko4 foifo3kofa fo*naga3 foi2namafofa-
koko3nama yefoiko3kogo konaIma foi2ko2go foi2fogo3 ma naga3 fofoma ke4 fofa i2ko4 fai2ko4naba-
gofe3ko3


i4koo3ke2go foi3ke3naga3 goi3ke3go fokonafago ke3go yefoi3 fe3i2naga3 ku3go
i3fokonaImafone2konafa-
fanaga3 ke3go yefoi2naga3 ke2go konaga3 koke2nama ko3fofa ke2fofa i2ke3go fe2 i2naga3 ke2go-
yefoko3go foi2ke3go konaIga3 ke3go konaga3 goi2ko3go foi2ko4go ke3fofa ku2naga3 goi2nama
konamago-
fe3fa koke3go koi2ema naga3 ke2ko2go yefokonaga3 foi2ke3naga3 ne2ga2


i4ge3konaba foi2ke3naba yefoi2ko3naga3 foinaImanama foi2ke3go foinaga3 foi3fe3fa foi4ke3naga2mo
foyi4go-
kofe3ko yefokonaga3 konaga3 ge3 i2nafa kofokogo ke2naImafoko foi2ke2go fe2kogo konaga3 konama
fonamanama fofako-
yefoi2ko3go ke2fokonaga3 yefoko2go3 ke2naga3 ke3nafafoma3


konagu2 i2fofai2go yefoko2naga3 kofofafoma ku3go yefoi2ke2go foi4ke3go ifofai3ge2 kofoIga3fe2yi3kogo foi3naIfafo-
goi2e2ku2 fofa naIma foi2naga3 foiko2go goi2go4 ifo2mo fanaIma fu3ko fe2kogo foike3naIma foinaba-
yefoi2ke3go konaga3 foyikogo3


mofofai3ke2 foga3 eyikogo yefokonaIma fofa konafakogo yefoi3konaga2 foi3konaga3foi3konaImafokogo foi3konaIfakofo namago-
yefoko2go foinaIma foinama foi2foko fe2konama go konafa foko3go yefoi2fofai2ke2go konafafofago
yefoi2naga3 ke3 nafa-
fe3nafa ku4fo fa i2nafa konaIma konaIma ke2naIma fe3igo foinafa fe3 konaIma e3i2nama foifofa
ke3go-
yefoi2ko3naga2 ke4go yefoi2go2 yefoi2fo3konaga3 konaga3 foyiko nai2naga3 foike3go yefoi2ke3go
eyi2ko-
fafe3mo foi2nama go fe3kogo4 yefofo3kogo yefokonaga3 konaIfakonaga2


i3naImafokogo ku3nama yefoi3ke2go koke3go kofofa yefoi3ke3go konaga3 foi4ke3naga3 fe2konaga3foi3naIma konama foigo-
monaIma ke3naga3 konafake2go konaga2kogo fofake3go ke3naga3 foiko3go yefoiko2 naga3 foinama
foiko2gokofo mafofa-
fage4 fake3fo fafe3 koi2naIma3


ike3naIma fu2konaga3 konaIma i2ke3go yefoi3ke2go ke2goi3konaga3 yefoi2naImafofake2go
mafokoko3goyeyi4ko3go-
fomafe3 nafa inaga3 yefoi2ko2naga3 fono2ga2 nafa mo naga2 me3


ike3naga3 fofakonafa ne2ma ei3ge4 eyi4go2 yi4foge2 fe2mo naga2ma eigo fe2i3fomonaIma yi4go
konaIma-
fonaga2fa ge3 yefoi2ko3go ke3go yefogo3 yefoi2fokonaga3 ge4 i2naIma naIgo foi2fofa naga2ma
foinaIma fama naImago-
go fe4konaga3 fofai2naga3 yefoi2naga3 fe2konaga3 foi2nama fofai2naga3 foi2naga3 eifokogo
naImafogo fofanaba-
fe4 konaga3 ku4go yefokonaga3 i2monaba fe2konafa fofake3go3


i3ke3naImamo fono2Ifa fe2inama yefoi2ko3naIma fofai2naga3 foi3konaga3 foifofa konaIma ke2go
iko2naIma naga2ma naIba-
e2fa foko3go i2ko3go ee2i2go fe3kogo3 i2ko3ko3go konaIga3 nafako naIma nama fu2fa ke3go foike3go
yefoigo-
go ke3nama foi2ko3go fai2ko3go naga3 foko3naga3 yefonaga3 goi2ko2go foi2naIma fofai2ko3go
yefonaga2 naga2 foi2go3 manaba-
monaIma naga3 ke4naga2 foi2naga3 foiko2go yefoi2ko3naga2 foma naga2


ife3konaga3 ne2ga3 yefoi2naga3 foinaga3 foinafai2naga2 foike3naga2 yefoife2 ke2go konaIma
yefoinama-
konaga3 foino3ga3 monaga3 goigo3 naga3 nafa fokonaga3 ke3nafa fokonaga2 naga3 fe3konafa ke3go-
goinaga2 fofai2naga3 go i2nama ke2nama nafai2naba3


i3fe3mo naIma fogo fu3 yefoi2ge3 u3i2namo fonama goike3 fai2ko2 foi2ko2nama foinafa i2nama-
goke3nama nayi2kogo foinama naga2 goi2fo2konaga3 yefoko3naga3 yefoi2nafa monaga2 foike3go
yefoi2nama-
fokonama foma naga3 foiku3go foi2naga3 goi2go fofamo fofa i2naga3 me4 naIma yefoinaga3ke3naIga3-
yefoko3go yefoi2ke3go ge4 ma naga3 nama naga2 naga3 nafa fe2fago3

ifokonaga3 fe3faike3 naga3 konaga3 foi2nama yefoko3naga2 gofe2 foko2na* foi3ke3go yefoino2ma-
goiko3go yefoigo2 yefoko2naga3 yefoi2ke3go iko3go yefoiko4go yefoinamayeimo3 fe2mo foike2go-
fogu3 konaga3 fu3kogo yefoigo ge4 inaga3 yefoi2naga3 yefoi2ko4go foyefoinaIga3 foyefofe2mo naga2

i3foko2naIma yefoifofa yefokonaga3 foinaga3 yefoinama yefoige3 yefoinaga3 fe3i3go yefoi3naga3fe3kogo-
goke4go foye konaga3 konaga2ma nafa ke3nafa fe2mo foma nafa iko2go yefoike2go yefoinama fe3konaga2-
gokonaga3 ke3go yefonafa ge4 yefoi2naIma foi2ko3go fe2inafa fe2 fa foi2naga2 nama konama
foi3naga3-
konaga2 ke3 fe2konaga3 foinaga2 ke2nama ke3go fe2yigo3


------------55F3F283D241--


From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  8 12:39 EST 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Is VM a typical herbal?
To: voynich@rand.org
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If anyone on the list is familiar with herbals, I would like to know if
you think the format of the herbal part of the VM is typical for such
books. For example, is it common to have full page pictures and only a
couple paragraphs of text, as many VM pages do? Is one plant per page
common?

Are herbals typically designed to teach the reader to _recognize_ the
plants, or to explain its uses in detail?

Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu)

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Feb  7 18:02 EST 1997
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Monkey Breeding in a Few Easy Lessons


Lesson 1: Monkey I.

In this lesson we shall teach a monkey to ape this simple text:

ABABABABABC

First, sort into alphabetical order all its substrings up to a length of
your choice, say, up to four letters long, and call it CONCORDANCE OF
THE COLLECTED WORKS, or THE CONCORDANCE, for short.

ABAB
ABAB
ABAB
ABAB
ABC
BABA
BABA
BABA
BABC
BC
C

Second, decide to what order of approximation you wish to have Monkey
ape your text. Third order? Second order? Fifth order? Sorry, you can't
have fifth order because those substrings are only four letters long.
The
most you can have is fourth-order. Fourth order? Fourth order it is.
Let N=4.

Good. Pick an entry at random, say, BABA.

Now here is the idea: BABA is the beginning of Monkey's collected
works, and it consist of his last pearl of wisdom, A, in the context of
his N-1 previous works, namely, BAB. Each new pearl of wisdom will now
depend on its previous context. What is the context of Monkey's next
pearl of wisdom? Why, ABA, of course. We now look in THE CONCORDANCE for
all the strings that start with the context ABA. Lo and behold, there
are four of them! We pick one at random. Its fourth letter (N=4) shall
be Monkey's next pearl of wisdom, B. Write it out. We have so far:
BABAB.
The context for Monkey's next pearl of wisdom is now BAB (the last three
letters), we look for all the strings that start with BAB, pick one,
output its fourth letter, and so on, and so on. With a bit of luck we
will at some stage pick the string which has C for its fourth letter
(BABC). The context will be ABC, and that will be the end of Monkey's
works, as no string in THE CONCORDANCE starts with ABC.



Lesson 2. Turbo Monkey, Part I.

Wherein we turbocharge our monkey.

First we number the entries in THE CONCORDANCE.

Next, we count how many occurrences there are of each three-letters
context, and we write that figure next to the first occurrence. But next
to strings shorter than four letters we write zero, to show that those
contexts are dead ends. Like this:

 1  4 ABAB
 2    ABAB
 3    ABAB
 4    ABAB
 5  0 ABC
 6  4 BABA
 7    BABA
 8    BABA
 9    BABC
10  0 BC
11  0 C

Now we fill each gap with -1, -2, and so on, as will fit in. Like this:

 1  4 ABAB
 2 -1 ABAB
 3 -2 ABAB
 4 -3 ABAB
 5  0 ABC
 6  4 BABA
 7 -1 BABA
 8 -2 BABA
 9 -3 BABC
10  0 BC
11  0 C

Our monkey is now turbocharged.



Lesson 3. Turbo Monkey, Part II.

In which we learn to drive our turbocharged monkey.

First we start the turbocharged monkey like the plain monkey, picking an
entry at random out of THE CONCORDANCE, writing it out, and noting the
context for the next letter to be written.  Search now for an occurrence
of the
current context in THE CONCORDANCE, using, for instance, a binary
search.
Say the binary search for context ABA returns entry number 9:

9 -3 BABC

The -3 tells you that the first occurrence of context BAB is in entry
number 9-3, i.e. entry number 6. Look it up:

6 4 BABA

The 4 there tells you that there are 4 occurrences of context BAB in THE
CONCORDANCE: 6, 7, 8, 9. Pick one at random, and output its fourth
letter. Update the context (remember: the context is always the last N-1
letters written), and continue in the same manner.

With this indexing system, text is generated so fast, even on a lowly
XT, that it fills the screen faster than you can read it!


Lesson 4. Turbo Monkey, Part III.

In which we learn to compute the fourth-order entropy of THE COLLECTED
WORKS (copyright Frogguy, 1990, 1997). 

Consider once again the turbocharged engine of your monkey, also known 
as THE CONCORDANCE OF THE COLLECTED WORKS (tm:). Count its contexts 
(sum the positive numbers next to each entry, ignore the negative
figures, 
which are only pointers back to the first occurrence of each context):

 1   4 ABAB
 2  -1 ABAB
 3  -2 ABAB
 4  -3 ABAB
 5   0 ABC
 6   4 BABA
 7  -1 BABA
 8  -2 BABA
 9  -3 BABC
10   0 BC
11   0 C

Sum: 8

Now, compute the entropy for each context. That is:

- sumOf (f[i]*log(f[i]))

in which f[i] denotes the relative frequency of letter i in that context
and log(x) denotes the base-2 logarithm of x.

In context ABA (entries 1 to 4), only B is found. Its relative frequency
is 100%, which is 1. So, the entropy for context ABA is -1*log(1) = 0.

In context BAB (entries 6 to 9), A is found 3 times, C one time. The
relative frequency of is therefore 0.75, that of C is 0.25. The entropy
for context BAB is then: - (0.75*log(0.75)+0.25*log(0.25)) = 0.8113

There are no other productive contexts. Now, add the products of the
relative frequency of each context by its entropy. The result is the
fourth-order entropy of the text:

Context ABA: relative frequency = 4/8
             entropy = 0                4/8*0      = 0
Context BAB: relative frequency = 4/8
             entropy = 0.8113           4/8*0.8113 = 0.4056

Entropy of text: 0+0.4056 = 0.4056


End of lesson.


HOMEWORK

Using THE CONCORDANCE, compute the third, second, and first-order
entropy of THE COLLECTED WORKS (copyright Frogguy 1990, 1997).


SUPPLEMENTARY HOMEWORK (for the really, really, dedicated)

Figure out at least one way of computing the correlation between the
second-order and fourth-order frequency tables as defined in my
"Eureka!" posting. (I found two ways. One is computable from the
concordance as built above, the other needs two separate concordances.
The former will work for letter-monkeys -- those monkeys for whom a
single letter is a pearl of wisdom, but it would need far too much
RAM storage for word-monkeys)



NOTA BENE

The algorithm I gave for computating entropy is equivalent to the one in
Bennett 1976. It treats the sample text as if it were the whole of the
virtually possible corpus. In the next volume of "Monkey-Breeding For
The Millions" we shall see how to code it. I still do not know if I
should talk about solving how to estimate the entropy of the population
from the sample (the gist of what Jim Reeds sent me 5 years ago), since
the entropy of texts does not seem a much useful measure for our
purposes. Opinions, please!

From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb  8 13:23 EST 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:16:02 -0500
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To: voynich@rand.org
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On Feb 8, 12:35, Bruce Grant wrote:
> Subject: Is VM a typical herbal?
> If anyone on the list is familiar with herbals, I would like to know if
> you think the format of the herbal part of the VM is typical for such
> books. For example, is it common to have full page pictures and only a
> couple paragraphs of text, as many VM pages do? Is one plant per page
> common?
> 
> Are herbals typically designed to teach the reader to _recognize_ the
> plants, or to explain its uses in detail?
> 
> Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu)
>-- End of excerpt from Bruce Grant

In answer to the first paragraph's questions: yes, as a glance at Bunt and
Raphael will show.  Indeed, the format is so similar that B&R list the VMS
as an herbal itself, although a perplexing one.  As does Toresella.  

The second paragraph's questions have a more complex answer.  I'm passing
this on to an expert.  I think the answer is: some herbals are the one, some
the other; regardless of the intent of the herbal the illustrations were
often copies of copies, and thus more iconographic decoration than accurate
botanical illustration. 

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From reeds Sat Feb  8 13:35:40 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:35:40 -0500
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich ff 59-64 are too missing
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On Feb 6, 19:04, Denis Mardle wrote:

> Subject: Bits and pieces
> 
 ...
>   To round off on a controversial note  -  I do not believe folios 59-64 ( 12 pages ) are missing 
> !!   In Newbold   ( Ed. Kent 1928 )     The cipher of Roger Bacon  ,  a careful tabulation is 
> given including multiple and missing pages by section.  This lists folios 12, 74, 91, 92, 97, 98, 
> 109,  110 as missing with 16 pages ( two per folio ) to be taken from 262 leaving 246 as 
> extant.  This is the figure given by Father Petersen on page 5 of Mary D'Imperio's treatise.   
> So what has happened ?  Were  f59-64 too poor or delicate to copy or were they not copied 
> by accident ? Or what ? Clearly a check would soon settle the point.
> 
>  Enough for today.        Denis
> 
>-- End of excerpt from Denis Mardle

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here, Denis, but folios 59-64 were
not there when I looked at the VMS at the Beinecke library, and the Yale
microfilm shows the opening between f58v and f65r on one frame.  I am not
convinced that Newbold inspected the MS carefully (I think he did all his
work from photostats provided by Voynich) and going backwards from page counts
to folio counts is flakey because of the uncertainty in counting pages in the
foldouts.  


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Sun Feb  9 10:59 EST 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: ff59-64, herbals and Latin
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  From  Denis V Mardle

  Ref  Jim Reeds on 8 Feb 1997

>I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here, Denis, but folios 59-64 =
were
>not there when I looked at the VMS at the Beinecke library, and the Yale
>microfilm shows the opening between f58v and f65r on one frame.  I am =
not
>convinced that Newbold inspected the MS carefully (I think he did all =
his
>work from photostats provided by Voynich) and going backwards from page =
counts
>to folio counts is flakey because of the uncertainty in counting pages =
in the
>foldouts.  

  Jim  -   I'm pleased you had looked at the  VMS itself .  I read in a =
recent publication
that Voynich thought there were 28 pages missing which tallies with the =
16  ( 8ff ) plus
the 12 from ff59-64.   As I found out from my British Museum microfilm, =
that had errors
due to duplication of pairs of open pages or even pairs skipped compared =
with the
rotograph copies from the VMS.  Because of verso pages being unnumbered =
one
cannot tell if the pair f58v,f65r is not really f64v,f65r on the original=
 master microfilm.,
but it looks as though a new master was made in recent years.     Newbold=
 and Kent's
table is accurate on all the fold-out folios/pages except for ff85-86 whi=
ch seem to have
confused everyone, including me.   Having now seen a small photograph of =
the nine
rossettes set out on six pages with I presume six pages on the other side=
,  do we have
two folios each of six pages as Newbold and Kent give or  the EVMT list =
of f85r1,r2,v2,
v1,  f86r4,r3,r6,r5,v4,v6,v5,v3,  which is also 12 pages  167,171, six =
unnumbered, 168,
169,172,173  with 174 having no folio number.   It would help if the nine=
 rossettes are
numbered by two rows of three pages left to right with the corresponding =
other side
numbers also consecutive.        Newbold and Kent certainlly have folio =
error numbers 
on their plates which have been corrected by Mary D'Imperio.

    For anyone going to the British Museum  there is a facsimile collecti=
on with  FAC 439
and FAC 461 being part of the VMS but also useful to those interested in =
Latin script
is FAC 241 - Latin Palaeography -   1619 photographs of 6-16th Century =
examples..
    The VMS rotographs were donated by  Dr. Robert STEELE probably in 193=
1.

    Also in the BM ( all this refers to my 1969 visit ) is a Herbal by =
Anthony ASCHAM of
1550 .      Catalogue reference     C 31  b 21

  Well  -  My non-missing folios idea was a good try !          Denis


From reeds Sun Feb  9 12:07:24 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9702091207.ZM14919@research.att.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:07:24 -0500
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Subject: Voynich folios missing, etc.
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On Feb 9, 15:50, Denis Mardle wrote:


>  ...  I read in a recent publication
> that Voynich thought there were 28 pages missing...

I count 14 missing folio numbers: 12, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 74, 91, 92,
97, 98, 109, 110.  At two pages per folio this comes to Voynich's 28.
(By the way, where did Voynich say this?)  Of course folio number series
can contain mistakes (gaps or duplicates), so we cannot be certain.

Denis, do you know my http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/checklist.txt
list of all known VMS "pages" and where they are duplicated, etc?  Also of
interest are ...voynich/foldouts.txt and ...voynich/quires.txt .  If you
cannot view these let me know and I'll email you copies.





-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 10 03:29 EST 1997
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Denis V.  Mardle was wondering about the folio numbering
of the rosetta, and wrote:

> Having now seen a small photograph of the nine rossettes set
> out on six pages with I presume six pages on the other side.....

Yes.
Note that these 6+6 pages were drawn on one large square piece
of vellum (18" * 18"). This one bifolium has been numbered (possibly
by Dee, and almost certainly while the whole thing was folded in) such
as to contain two folia: f85 and f86. One side is one logical page
with the rosetta, and the other has 6 logical pages. The numbering
of D'Imperio subdivides the one logical page also into six physical
pages.
D'Imperio speaks of f85/86, but if we take the binding gutter as
the boundary between 85 and 86, it is possible to call each page
with its proper folio number. The gutter is not in the middle,
but divides the square into one piece of 1/3 the size (f85, on the
left when looking at the rosetta) and one piece of 2/3 the size
(f86 on the right).

> ... do we have two folios each of six pages as Newbold and Kent give..

No, 4 and 8 respectively, as expained above.

> ... or the EVMT list of f85r1,r2,v2, v1,  f86r4,r3,r6,r5,v4,v6,v5,v3,

We adopted the D'Imperio numbering, yet being more precise about what
is 85 and what is 86, and the sequence above was chosen such that
all 85 pages come before 86 pages while still making some sense.
I followed Jim's lead and folded a square piece of paper just like this
one bifolium, writing all the numbers where they belong. All the necessary
information is in Jim's checklist and foliation pages.
Imagine yourself browsing through the Manuscript. You arrive at a page
(right page) with 85 in the upper right corner. This is f85r1.
You flip it over. On the left you have f85r2, and on the right you
see a page folded back, with 86 in the upper right corner.  When
folding that open, you have (left to right): f85r2, f86v4, f86v6.
Now you see the horizontal fold and when folding that open (bottom to
top) the 6-page 9-disk composite is visible. Their numbers are
consecutive in the EVMT page sequence:

f85r1,r2,v2, v1,  f86r4,r3,r6,r5,v4,v6,v5,v3
         --  --   ----- -- -- --

and the layout is most clear in Jim's above-mentioned foliation page.

> which is also 12 pages  167,171, six unnumbered, 168, 169,172,173
> with 174 having no folio number.

These are the so-called Petersen page numbers, although they don't
appear on the Petersen hand transcription. They are useful because
the FSG used these as the page ID for their transcriptions. I guess
that 174 refers to the entire 6-page 9-disk rosetta.  Note that some
(other) pages have been numbered and transcribed twice, and some pages
were never  transcribed by the FSG (apart from the ones with circles).
I suspect a copying error somewhere in their process.

Sorry to have been so lengthy, but I hope it explains a bit...
                   Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 10 04:42 EST 1997
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In reply to  Denis' identification of the Lotus (which was also made
by Petersen or his sources), it makes a lot of sense. The Lotus
was considered a plant with mysterious powers and thus 'belongs'
in this Ms. But then, the flower is wrong. But then again, on almost
every page of the VMs something seems to be wrong.
I did mention before that there is another water plant (Nymphoides
Peltata is its modern name), which has the same roots and floating
leave as the Lotus (Nymphaea), but in addition has a flower with
the shape as drawn, down to the very detail of the frizzled
edges of  the petals. Only, this flower is exclusively bright
yellow, and has five petals, not four  (but remember my recent
comment about the scarlet pimpernel in Dioscurides).
Furthermore, the Nymphoides (yellow floating heart) has the
flower on a stem, not sitting on the leaf, as the picture would
also suggest. I think both theories have their points.

The plant identification I feel most comfortable about is
a  'Wunderbaum' or 'Risinus'. Easy to recognise the large
starry leaves and the 'fruits' with 'needles'.

On a more general note about herbals: I am not an expert and
so I have another question to add to Bruce Grant's:
Is there any known herbal (including the alchemical herbals) that
does *not* have the plant name somewhere on each page?

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 10 09:26 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:17:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
cc: Richard Shand <rshand@wimsey.com>
Subject: Cathar Texts
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*Surviving Cathar Writings and their Availability*

    Here are all the Cathar texts you could ever want!

*In English* 

http://www.isabel-uk.com/menu1.htm

     *Catholics, Heretics and Heresy*,  by Gilles C. H. Nullens.  A 
book online on Catharism.  It discusses Le Roy Ladurie's book quite a 
bit.  In section 1.2,  *Introduction to the Cathar Religion*, he 
mentions four surviving Cathar documents: 

     1.  A Latin manuscript "The Book of the Two principles" kept in 
     Florence is a translation made in 1260 from a work by the Cathar 
     Jean de Lugio from Bergamo and written in 1230. 

     2.  The Latin translation found in Prague in 1939 from an 
     anonymous treaty written in Languedoc at the beginning of the 
     13th century. The author could be the Parfait Barthelemy of 
     Carcassonne. 

     3.  Latin Ritual of Florence 

     4.  Occitan Ritual of Lyon 

    Wakefield and Evans give English translations of all of these, in 
their entirety or extensive excerpts of them.   They say that "there 
is an abridged English translation of the ritual of the consolamentum 
and of the discourse to the initiate, in Oldenbourg, *Massacre at 
Montse'gur*, Appendices A and B.  A short excert [ of the ritual] in 
English will also be found in Petry, *History of Christianity*, pp. 
348-49."   I haven't seen Oldenbourg or Petry. 

    In addition, Wakefield & Evans have English translations of "A 
Vindication of the Church of God" and "A Gloss on the Lord's Prayer" 
from a Provencal [Occitan]  manuscript of uncertain date.  
    
    Wakefield & Evans also have English translations of two Bogomil 
[Slavic Cathar] texts used by the Cathars.  These are "The Vision of 
Isaiah" and "The Secret Supper" or "Interrogatio Johannis".  Because 
C. G. Jung mentions the "Interrogatio Johannis" in his book *Aion*, 
I've often seen the "Interrogatio Johannis" mentioned in occult 
writings, sometimes as though it were lost.   
    
    In chapter "9, Ritual and Affirmation", pp. 91-105, of *The 
Treasure of Montse'gur", Birks and Gilbert quote an Apparelhamentum 
ritual and a Traditio ritual that they say are from the Lyon Ritual.  
(Birks and Gilbert is an esotericist book, not as bad as Baigent & 
Leigh's *Holy Blood, Holy Grail*, but the same general sort of thing.)   
They do not say exactly where they got this.  On page 79 they say, 
"While not neglecting the evidence provided by these Catholic sources 
it is clear that the only really valid evidence can come from sources 
peculiar to Catharism.  Of these we have two.  The first and more 
important is the ritual of the Consolamentum, written in the 
Languedocian language, and published by Cle'dat in 1887, now in the 
library at Lyon (see Nelli, Ecritures Cathares, for a French 
translation)."  That's Nelli (1968b).  This implies to me that they 
translated their excerpts from Nelli, which I haven't seen.  However, 
they may have gotten their excerpts from Oldenbourg, which I also 
haven't seen.  Their Apparelhamentum is a different translation of 
Wakefield & Evans' "The Service" from the Lyons Ritual.  Their 
*Traditio* is a different translation of Wakefield & Evans' "The 
Ministration of the Prayer" and "The Ministration of the 
Consolamentum" from the Lyons Ritual, although they have a few 
variations.  

http://home.sn.no/~noetic/legcat.htm

     Societas Gnostica Norvegia: The Legacy of the Cathars.  It has 
     links to the following texts: 

    The Apparelhamentum, confession of sins. 
    Traditio, immersion into the community of parfaits.  
    Interrogatio Johannis 
     
    The Apparelhamentum and Tradition are excerpted, word for word, 
from Birks and Gilbert's rituals, with slight variations.   

*In Modern French* 

    Nelli, Ecritures Cathares, (1968b), contains at least the 
following texts in modern French, according to Wakefield & Evans.  I 
haven't actually seen Nelli (1968b).   
    
    The Vision of Isaiah
    Interrogation Johannis
    Latin Ritual of Florence
    Occitan Ritual of Lyons
    Anonymous Treatise perhaps by Barthemely of Carcassonne
    Book of the Two Principles 

     In his *Anthology of Medieval Occitan Prose, 
Volume II*, Pierre Bec gives an excerpt from the Lyons Ritual in the 
original Occitan along with a modern French translation, a brief 
introduction, and some notes.  (Occitan is the regional language of 
southern France spoken in the Cathar area.  It is very similar to 
Catalan.)  

Occitan Language Page 
http://bambi.lptl.jussieu.fr/users/vanDenBossche/OC/presoc.htm 

    The excerpt is part of "The Ministration of the Consolamentum* in 
Wakefield & Evans.  



*Bibliography*

*Offline Resources*

    Baigent & Leigh; *Holy Blood, Holy Grail*.   (1982). 

    Bec, Pierre; *Anthologie de la Prose Occitane du Moyen-A^ge, 
Volume II [ Anthology of Medieval Occitan Prose, Volume II]*  (1987, 
Vent Terral).  (Excerpt of consolamentum ritual in Occitan with modern 
French translation.) 

    Birks, Walter, and Gilbert, R. A.; *The Treasure of Montsegur: a 
Study of the Cathar Heresy and the Nature of the Cathar Secret*.  
(1987, Crucible, Great Britain).  ISBN 0-85030-424-5.  (Contains 
excerpts of Cathar rituals.) 

    Cle'dat, ??Lyon ritual.  (Birks and Gilbert mention, but don't 
have in bibliography.) 
    
    Jung, Carl Gustav; *Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the 
Self*.  (Translated by R. F. C. Hull.)  (Princeton: Princeton 
University Press, 1959), pp. 145-48.  [for reference to  *Interrogatio 
Johannis] 

    Le Roy Ladurie, Emmanuel (translated by Barbara Bray); 
*Montaillou: The Promised Land of Error* , 1978, George Braziller, 
Inc., New York.  (This English translation has a good introductory 
chapter and, at the end, an index of the main families of Montaillou, 
very useful in understanding social relations in a small mountain 
village.)  

    Le Roy Ladurie, Emmanuel; *Montaillou, village occitan de 1294 a` 
1324*, (1982, e'dition revue et corrige'e, E'ditions Gallimard).  

    Nelli, Rene'(1968b); *E'critures Cathares... Textes Pre'cathares 
et Cathares*.  (Paris, 1968, 2nd ed.)  (In Birks and Gilbert's 
bibliography. They say, "Six texts translated into modern French, with 
critical commentary.") 

    Oldenbourg, Zoe'; *Massacre at Montse'gur: A History of the 
Albigensian Crusade*. Translated by Peter Green.  (New York, 1961.)  
[Both Birks & Gilbert and Wakefield & Evans have in bibliographies.] 
    
    Petry, Ray C.; *A History of Christianity: Readings in the History 
of the Early and Medieval Church.*  (Englewood Cliffs, N.J., 1962.) 
[In Wakefield & Evans biblio] 

    Wakefield, Walter L., and Evans, Austin P.; *Heresies of the High 
Middle Ages: Selected Sources Translated and Annotated*. (Columbia 
University Press, New York & London, 1969).  BT 1315.2 W32 

*Online Resources*

http://newescape.fr/Culture/History/Cathares/Ce.Cathares.html
    Centre d'+tudes Cathares (Center of Cathar Studies). In French. 
They're physically located in Carcassonne, where Jacques Fournier's 
Inquisition, described in *Montaillou*, took place.  


http://home.sn.no/~noetic/legcat.htm
     Societas Gnostica Norvegia: The Legacy of the Cathars.  There is 
much Cathar material here and many links to other sites.  Included are 
two excerpts that it says are from the Lyons Cathar Ritual: 

     The Apparelhamentum, confession of sins.
     Traditio, immersion into the community of parfaits.  
     Interrogatio Johannis

http://bambi.lptl.jussieu.fr/users/vanDenBossche/OC/presoc.htm
Occitan Language Page.  Much on the Occitan language.




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Pages on rosetta:

  f85v2  f86r4  f86r6

  f85v1  f86r3  f86r5

as I learned from Jim's foliation page.

Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 10 11:14 EST 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Herbals, rossetta and missing pages
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    From Denis V Mardle

  Thanks Jim and Rene for your very useful replies.      I now have anoth=
er web site to browse 
as well as Gabriel's  EVMT one from which I have copied the Home Page, =
 Annex 2 and 
Rules.    Alta Vista gave jim's with a warning at the start about under =
construction and 
compressed Z format - it was dated 24 Sep 1996.   This is the /voynich.ht=
ml one

  Rene asks which Herbal
>does *not* have the plant name somewhere on each page?

 I observe that the f1r main paragraphs have short  1 or 2 word  'subject=
s' at the end of each 
of the four paragraphs on the same line after a very long space.  Presuma=
bly these describe 
the four parts of the treatise.   A few of the botanical pages have the =
same feature and may 
be describing the name of the plant.     They occur as follows :-

f8r - paras 1,2 and 3 (significantly this plant looks like Ivy)
f9r - para 2  ;  f16r - para 1 ; f18r - para 2 ; f19v - para 2  ; f22v =
 - para 2 ;
f24r - para 1 ;  f25r - para 1 ; f27r - para 2 ; f31r - para 3 ; f39r - =
para 3 ;
f40v - para 3.        There may be others I don't have.     It is odd tha=
t only
one side of a folio has this feature.   Also was it normal to put labels =
at the
end rather than the start of a paragraph.   By the way both words on f16r
end 8O which is rare.

  NOTE -  I am not much of a botanist or a herbalist !

  Rene -  Everyone will I am sure be grateful for your description 
of the rossetta layout .    In pictorial form :-

                           85v2      86r4     86r3

                           85 v1     86r6     86r5        Is that correct=
 ? or is it


                           85v2      85v1     86r4

                           86r3       86r6       86r5       ?







On Feb 9, 1997   I wrote:


>  ...  I read in a recent publication
> that Voynich thought there were 28 pages missing...

At  1707  Jim Reeds replied

<I count 14 missing folio numbers: 12, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 74, 91, =
92,
<97, 98, 109, 110.  At two pages per folio this comes to Voynich's 28.
<(By the way, where did Voynich say this?)  Of course folio number series
<can contain mistakes (gaps or duplicates), so we cannot be certain.

 The comment from Voynich is given on page 1381 of a 1980's series
called " Unexplained"  with VMS articles on pp 1381-5  and 1418-20
 f33v and f34r are on p 1381 and the rossetta on p 1383.   The word
on the top left page near the centre of a wavy bend is one of the most
unusual I have seen    -    In FSG form  -    8822SY  (This is  from plat=
e
VIII of Newbold and Kent)     page 1384 has f68v1(?) and f69r  page
1385 has f83v and f84r plus a detail from f78r.  page 1418 has f16v
and f17r.

   I have also realised that one can recognise many of the botanical vers=
o
pages by the recto side showing through on the microfilm and prints,
also verso on recto.  If the verso opposite f65r has f58r showing through
then ff59-64 are truly missing, but if a different plant shows through =
 it is
NOT f58v.

          Good hunting             Denis


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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:19:39 +0000
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Subject: Re: ff59-64, herbals and Latin
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Status: OR

On  9 Feb 97 at 15:50, Denis Mardle wrote:

> Also in the BM ( all this refers to my 1969 visit ) is a Herbal 
> by Anthony ASCHAM of 1550 .Catalogue reference     C 31  b 21

Hello Denis,

Did you actually see Ascham's Herbal? Do you have any comments? I 
mean, is it similar to the VMS? Apparently Strong's "solution" points 
to Ascham as the author...

Is anybody in the list familiar with that Herbal? It may be a 
good excuse to make a trip to the British Museum...

cheers,

Gabriel


From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 11 10:51 EST 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: ff85-86, files and flowers
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 97 15:33:18 GMT
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   From  Denis V Mardle              Feb  11  1997

   Jim     -    I now have your checklist,  foldouts and quires files so =
no e-mail needed.  I will 
study them at my leisure ater printing them out.  Your bib file sounds =
useful also.

  Rene   -  Thanks for your corrected map of ff85-86 rossetta which I had=
 found after folding
yesterday's newspaper after I sent my message.

Pages on rosetta:

  f85v2  f86r4  f86r6

  f85v1  f86r3  f86r5
        

     Ideally all the pages should be verso since one does not see the ros=
setta until the final 
foldover.  This should apply to all folded folios that are in one piece.
     On flower identification I'll say more, hopefully, at the week-end. =
 It is all very complicated 
with two named Lotus and many Water-lily species.   Apparently the expert=
s are not sure  
which is which on Ancient Egyptian murals since there was a native specie=
s then the Eastern 
Sacred Lotus ( not our f2v )was introduced about 525 BC.

  Jim   -    All I have on 'Unexplained' are photo copies, some not all =
that clear, from the TV
people who visited you.   I'll try to get more info from them.

  Gabriel  -
>Did you actually see Ascham's Herbal? Do you have any comments? I 
>mean, is it similar to the VMS? Apparently Strong's "solution" points =

>to Ascham as the author...

   Sorry,  I don't think I looked at it.   I was collecitng various refer=
ences at the time.  If you do 
go to the BM ask to look at FAC 439 and FAC 461 using what must have been=
 the master 
film copy from which another error strewn copy  ( mine and Jim G's have =
the same errors )  
has been produced.  In particular  f66 and f79 plus 'A' and 'B' should =
be there.  I remember 
seeing them on the master film.   I have the subset of about  half of the=
 all text pages at the 
end.  There are two different copies of f1r, one clearer than the other, =
also f116v.

                              Au revoir          Denis


From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 11 13:00 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:48:18 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Steganographia and Dee manuscripts
Status: OR

In the 1980's I published the series of 23 Magnum Opus Hermetic
Sourceworks, however I ceased producting these in 1987. Some of
the books in this series remained unsold and a number of people
were disappointed at not being able to purchase copies. I have
in the last weeks, bound up 25 copies of the Steganographia, the
Heptarchia Mystica and the Five Books of John Dee, and these are
now immediately available. These works may be relevant to understanding
the background to the Voynich manuscript.

Full details can be found through the web page

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/magnum_opus.html

Adam McLean


From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 12 18:29 EST 1997
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:16:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: Martin McCarthy <marty@ehabitat.demon.co.uk>
To: Bruce Grant <bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Is VM a typical herbal?
In-Reply-To: <m0vtGgN-001YzOC@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
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On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Bruce Grant wrote:
> If anyone on the list is familiar with herbals, I would like to know if
> you think the format of the herbal part of the VM is typical for such
> books. For example, is it common to have full page pictures and only a
> couple paragraphs of text, as many VM pages do? Is one plant per page
> common?
> 
> Are herbals typically designed to teach the reader to _recognize_ the
> plants, or to explain its uses in detail?

I originally ignored this as I'm even more ignorant about herbals than I
am about most things in life.  Then as I was clearing up some disc space
today I came across a number of images from a number of herbals.  There's
one page each from: Dioscorides' Codex Aniciae Julianae (6th century); an
11th century herbal made for St. Augustine's Abbey, Canterbury; a page
from Your Favourite Mysterious Manuscript (TM); and a rather pretty page
from goodness knows where or when (I know nothing more than that about
these images...sorry---if anyone can enlighten me further I'd be
delighted).  Anyway, if you want to make the comparison yourself, take a
look at:

       http://www.ehabitat.demon.co.uk/herbal.html

None of the images are very bulky.

Oh, and due to the way my ISP handles subscribers' home pages, people 
outside the demon.co.uk domain may not be able to see this page until 
sometime on Friday.

Martin
-- 
Martin McCarthy                 /</            
PGP key available.              \>\              marty@ehabitat.demon.co.uk

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 13 17:20 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:12:15 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Tones or Accents
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Status: OR

There are 105 sound variations within my transliteration scheme.=20
 Whether the variations are tones or accents isn't really important.=20

96 consonant/vowel-tone pairs =3D 6 consonants x 4 tones/accents

24 variants of consonant + =91a'
24 variants of consonant + =91o'
24 variants of consonant + =91e'
24 variants of consonant + =91u'

4 variants of i
4 variants of yi
1 ye

konaga konaga2 konaga3 konaga4 (all completely different in meaning like=20
chinese 5 variations of ma =3D horse, hemp, mother, scold, question??)

I haven't made a text file symbolizing 105 symbols, but instead have=20
broken them into syllables with K,N,B,F,M, and G initials.  The gallows=20
letters, being different than the rest, are treated as vowels with no=20
initial, as is the old 4.

The file I sent with my last E-mail didn't address the errant I's in the=20
text, but with closer examination the majority follow the rules for=20
providing additional tone/accents to the =91a' family.  When they precede=
=20
an =91o' family, I can only hope that they were actually missed=20
transliterations of C's.  I am presently re-working the text file to=20
delete all errant I's, as well as removing one of the alternate choice=20
characters in brackets throughout the text - I will leave brackets=20
around those characters to signify that an alternate transliteration was=20
possible.

	Briefly, Here's how I determined the tones/accents:

	From Voynich.now file                            Tonal

		9					go
		C9					go2
		CC9					go3
		CCC9					go4

	and so on. The I family becomes A's; characters beginning with S=20
become E's; characters beginning with Z become U's.  The consonants are=20
determined by the closing stroke of the character 9 and D =3D g; 8 and 7 =
=3D=20
k; O and E =3D f; R and 2 =3D m; 6 and J =3D b; and a final A =3D n.

	Lastly, I'm not on the Voynich mailing list yet - perhaps I'll=20
change that soon, but feel free to E-mail me with any questions=20
regarding what I've done, especially if you've done some statistical=20
analysis to determine the feasibility of this system.  I've tried some=20
algorithms myself, but I think that I need to change to 105 characters=20
to get accurate results.


					John

From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb 15 12:47 EST 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: f112, Tiltman and herbals
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 97 17:26:47 GMT
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   From Denis V Mardle

   Ref my remarks on f112v on  6 Feb 1997.      I have now looked again =
at f112r which 
should also have a damaged top right hand corner.   The evidence for this=
 is strong.  The 
scribe has attempted to go right across the first line but has ended up =
with two blobs, so he 
(or she) keeps well away from the damaged area until the end of the fifth=
 paragraph ( where 
the damaged area ends )  and then continues to go closer to the right edg=
e as per other 
pages in this text only section.      I have exactly the same  film copy =
from the British Museum 
as the one obtained by Jim Gillogly ( mine was sent to me about 27 Aug =
1969)  - see BL 
numbers on the checklist file.  I even predict that  the  frame f47v/f48r=
 is duplicated on the 
film !  I saw the master copy of the two sets of rotographs and I now rea=
lise for certain that my 
rough notes were correct and that errors crept into the later film 'copy'=
     From the film I had 
two sets of large prints and  another glossy print slightly smaller of =
BL2.5 to 2.8     It is tricky to 
get the best contrast so as not to misread letters.      There is an awkw=
ard  stain on these final 
section text pages at the top  and a bit lower clearly made after the tex=
t was written. It goes 
through most of the section but looks worse on f111v.

      The checklist makes no mention of Brigadier John H Tiltman's 45 pag=
e article including 
many copies of folio pages and other items including herbals.  Ref  10 =
of Jim Reeds article in 
Cryptologia  ( Jan 1995 ) gives the NSA Technical Journal reference, but =
most people I know 
who have a copy have a separate 1-45 page reprint also done at NSA.  The =
folios shown on 
the plates are        PL1 - f106r;   PL2 - f33v;  PL5 - f56r;  PL6 - f4r;=
  PL7 - f93r;  PL8 - f?v (this 
has the 'embellishment' shown in fig. 20 col2 row2 of Mary D'Imperio's =
treatise );  PL9 - f67r1 - 
( I have a copy of this from PL III of Newbold and Kent in colour );  PL1=
0 - f73r ;  PL11a 
-f70v1;  PL11b - f71r;  PL12 - f78r;  PL13 - f99r;  PL14 - f1r;  PL15 - =
f116v; PL16 - part of f68r 
but not the same as Newbold's;  PL18 - f49v;  PL19 - f57v;  PL20 - f66r. =
   I'll comment on 
some of these in a later message.

         On page 6 of Tiltman's article where he  is discussing herbals =
he refers to an illustrated 
English printed work known as Banckes's Herbal, the first dated 1525 but =
two editions dated 
1550 and 1555 are usually attributed to Anthony Ask(c)ham Physician.   =
   He promised some 
astrological additions, but they are nowhere to be found..           Page=
s 11-13 are also on 
herbals including the fact that the British Museum have a finely illustra=
ted translation into 
Anglo-Saxon c1050AD of the Herbarium of Apuleius Platonicus probably writ=
ten in Greek 
c400AD and printed in Latin in Rome in 1481.   Tiltman also gives details=
 of two facsimiles of 
the Juliana Anicia Codex, the second in five parts.  Has anyone else seen=
 these ?   Two 
parts are in the Garden Library at Dumbarton Oaks in the  USA.

   That's all for today.                      Denis


From monty.rand.org!jim Sun Feb 16 19:32 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:13:56 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Status: OR

Perhaps you have visited it, perhaps you haven't.
I came across it by pure chance:

http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/mss/overview.html

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 17 19:06 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:05:28 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------------5BD14FB5BCB0
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Once again, I submit a page with a few thoughts for 
consideration...

			John.
------------5BD14FB5BCB0
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="GRAMMAR.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


     This is (F66r) using the four accents/tones (I replaced the numbers =
with variations of diacritics).  Is it possible
that this resembles a grammatical context? - when to use prepositions, pr=
efixes, suffixes or the like.  Is it possible that
the whole book is a "How to speak Voynich" textbook?  Well, anything's po=
ssible...

manamago
go   =8Ckonag=83 foik=93go fo=8Ck=88go =82=8Bef=A0 k=A3kogo go=8Cm=88 f=93=
fa=8C??ko fo=A1k=A2nafamo -
fo   mofo[m=A0] =96=A1g=A2 yefo=A1k=93nama fo=A1nafa fo=A1k=A2go yefo=A1n=
afa fo=A1k=A2go yefo=A1k=A3 -

monafamo
mo   go=A1k=96go y=A1kogo yefo=A1m=93 f=89 fo=A1f=82 kogo =82=A1g=A2 k=88=
go ey=A1go -
u    k=A3go yefoik=A2go k=82go k=88go yefoik=A2go ey=8Cf=A2ma go=A1nakogo=
 konama ??ig=A2 =A1?nama -

yefoga
go   ??=A1f=93kogo yefo=A1f=A2kogo yefo=A1f=A2kogo yefo=A1nama =96=A1go y=
efo=A1f=93kogo fo=A1k=A2go =A1fokonamago -
ko   go=A1f=93kogo f=82o=A1g=93 fo=A1f=A2kogo =82=A1f=A2kogo yefo=A1fog=A2=
 kona=A1go =93yifo mafoinag=83 -
fo   kof=96? fo=A1nag=83 f=88konag=83

konamago
=8B    ifoy=8Cg=93 kofofa =A1f=82kogo yefo=A1f=A2kogo yefo=A1g=A3 yefo=8C=
nag=83 nam=84?=A1fokonamo fo=A1nako -
?    ??fofa kogog=83 konafa =A1na u=A1go ye=A2go =A3=A1om=A0 f=82igo koo=A1=
 o=A1g=93 m=A3go o=A1fofa -

go=A1f=A2fa
n    ?fo=82=A1 eyigo konafanafak=88go =82=8Cnamo f=96ko f=A3=A1nam=A0 =82=
=A1g=82 konamoko -
nam=A0 f=A3ma f=96konafa f=A3fakogo yefo=A1k=88go yefo=8Cg=82 yefoigo, k=88=
go mam=88 =A1namakogo -
ko   yefo=A1e? ?fo=A1nam=83 =82=A1go konafago konam=83 konafa k=96go k=88=
go fa=A1nama, k=A2 fo=A1k=A2go -

konafago

u    fofa =89=A1go konam=83 e=A1go nanfoma na=A1namog=A3 konag=83
go   =8Cf=82=8C f=A3ifomokonag=83 yefoinama, foinafafoma =8Ck=88nama k=88=
go konama fokonam=A0 fo=8Cnamanaka-

monafa=8B

=8B    konafa=89=A1go f=96fa konam=A0fokogo =82ig=82 k=96 fo=A1og=A3 fa, =
fafoma f=96ma f=88fa -
=8B    kofoma k=96go fo=A1nama k=88go =A1f=88kogo ennama konafago =8Ck=82=
nama f=88manafafo mago -

=8Bnamago
go   f=A3ma =A3=A1f=93kogo konafak=96go yefo=A1foma nafa m=96
fo
     =8Cf=96kogo y=8Cfofa f=A3=8Cfofa fo=A1f=A2kogo yefo=A1nafakogo goina=
mafokogo f=A3kogo k=96go =A1nam=A0 -

yefoim=A2go
ko
mo   monam=A0, fofa konag=83 konag=83 konafa kofofa, f=88kogo konam=A0, n=
afago konam=A0nafa
kofofanama g=A3, kofoma -
i    ifog=96 yefo=A1nafakogo fo=A1go fofa =A1=89=A1go yefo=A1go konamago =
fo=A1m=93 fofago

go=A1nafago
o    ifokog=94 =A1f=A2kogo k=82go =A1f=A2kogo k=96go =A3=A1=93=8Cgo k=82g=
o f=96fa f=A3fa =A1fokogo konafago -
?    monam=83 f=88fa =A1nafa f=96kogo eyik=A2go konafa f=A3ma yefo=A1f=A2=
kogo f=82kogo =A1of=82kogo -

kogofago
n    mak=96go foi=93?go go=A1f=93kogo f=96yigo fofa, fako, fak=96go f=82i=
g=93 =82=A1g=A2 g=88 -
i
     gof=81ko yefoif=93ko yefoifofa, yefo=A1go ey=A1g=A2 g=96 kof=88fa =82=
=A1go f=88 kom=84ma -

monag=83
fo
?    gokonag=83 f=A3kogo foik=94go foif=A2g=88 ifofak=88go faf=96kogo yef=
o=A1go, konag=83 foinaka -
fa   if=88 f=96ma foif=A2kogo fa=8Cm=89fofa, nama, nafa=A1g=A2 foig=A2 fa=
if=A3fago g=96 ma, fofa -

yefo=A1nafa
ma
     konag=83 f=96fa yefoy=A1k=A2go yefo=A1k=A2go fag=88 yefo=A1nafago uy=
=A1go yefoinafa foik=82go -
i
     yefo=A1g=A2 nama fofa=A1f=A2fa yefo=A1nafa f=96=A1go go=A1k=82go f=82=
kogo f=96kogo yefo=A1go nakogo -
fo

yefofamona
     kofoma nag=83 f=81fa fak=96go fak=88go k=89go uoifofa konafafofa faf=
okonag=83 -
n
     f=96fa fo=A1g=93 fakonag=83 fo=A1nafak=88go, =8Ck=88go =A1fokogo yef=
oik=88go y=8Ck=A2go -
=8C

manamanafa
     konag=83 g=96 yefoif=A2fago manag=83 k=81go uyigo o=A1fofa yefo=A1fo=
fa ko=A1nama -
ko
     fag=88 fa=A1k=93go =82igo =A3=A1nafago uy=A1nama



foif=88 konag=83 eigo go=A1m=82=82ba


------------5BD14FB5BCB0--


From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 17 19:23 EST 1997
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Message-ID: <3308F3DB.4DB1@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:12:12 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
X-Sender: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca> (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: F66r - WordPerfect 5.1
X-Priority: Normal
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------73F0334919991"
Status: OR

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------------73F0334919991
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Sorry, for those browsers that might have garbled that last txt formatted file. 
Here's the same file using WP.

				John.
------------73F0334919991
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------------73F0334919991--


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From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
To: voynich@rand.org
Cc: Rene Zandbergen <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>,
        Gabriel Landini <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
Message-id: <01IFJMLIRKPO8WW5PV@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
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This is my first appearance on the VSG, although I have listened to the
exchanges for quite awhile with some passing interest.  I hope my ideas are
received as well as everybody elses, but I have no doubt they will be with
such fine minds at work.

Some older Voynich students know me, but most of you do not.  I am the one
out there that keeps pushing the "polyalphabetic" idea and just won't let
it die.  After 11 years of research, a unique opportunity has presented
itself that could allow all of us to settle the "polyalphabetic" argument
once and for all.

Many years ago I met personally with Betty McKaig, an intimate friend of
Dr. Leonnel C. Strong.  From that meeting I gained some important
information that has been my source of long study.  Unfortunately, my
information was incomplete, and the majority of my time in this matter has
been involved in the reconstruction of Strong's works.  In some ways I have
more than succeeded, and in other ways I was not even close, but the value
of the work I allow to be judged by the Voynich Study Group.

Very recently I have discovered the long-sought-after papers of Dr. Strong,
and I have begun a scanning operation that will make them available to all
serious students.  I have expressed my problems with their release to
Gabriel Landini and Rene Zandbergen, as there are some problems that
interfere with the release of my own work, but in the interest of true
research I cannot withhold historical information from the academic
community.  Perhaps my years of research in this direction can aid the
group in the study of these very important historical documents.

Most of you will not be familiar with the history of Strong's works, as
there has been nothing publicly available of any significance for you to
ponder.  In an effort to fill the void, I will offer this short history:

Dr. Leonnel C. Strong was a Genetic Researcher whose claim to fame was the
breeding of the first mouse strain that mimicked the human response to
cancer.  His years of research were, as far as I can ascertain, in the
realm of cancer and immunology.  His educational background was in genetic
research at Yale, similar to the much acclaimed William Friedman.  Friedman
acquired a position in cryptology, but from the papers I read while with
Betty McKaig, Strong's interest in cryptography was just as profound, the
first papers bearing a date of 1917.  (Strong was born on January 16, 1896,
a date that has meaning to some individuals interested in cryptography). 
Many of Strong's discoveries in cryptography were never published, but his
newly found letters indicate that there were many people indebted to his
work in this area.

I have not yet evaluated the additional letters that arrived with this new
information set, but the gist of my information from the letters I did
possess was simply this:

Strong worked on only two pages of the Voynich from Newbold's reprints, but
tried to gain more by contacting the owners.  Strong's brother-in-law
worked with Col. Friedman, and tried to impress upon him the importance of
Strong's work.  Friedman asked for that work in secret from Strong, and
with Strong's refusal, interfered with Strong's efforts to gain access to
the entire manuscript. (At this time Friedman was running a study group of
his own.)  It was because of Friedman's interference and the resultant
refusal by the owners to release information that Strong never published
his findings.  As a professional man, he knew his findings were incomplete,
and any release would be premature.

Strong's "premature" findings are what I possess, and what I offer to the
group for study.  My problem at the moment is how to contain them for
access to the group.  We are looking at a storage problem, and I am
wondering if anybody has about 20mb of web-accessible space to spare?  Any
offers would be appreciated.


Sincerely,


Rayman Malekei



  






  

  








--Boundary (ID 5Ot/4xp9hAd5N3WDbp9jmA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial">This is my first appearance on the VSG, =
although I have listened to the exchanges for quite awhile with some =
passing interest. &nbsp;I hope my ideas are received as well as =
everybody elses, but I have no doubt they will be with such fine minds =
at work.<br><br>Some older Voynich students know me, but most of you do =
not. &nbsp;I am the one out there that keeps pushing the =
&quot;polyalphabetic&quot; idea and just won't let it die. &nbsp;After =
11 years of research, a unique opportunity has presented itself that =
could allow all of us to settle the &quot;polyalphabetic&quot; argument =
once and for all.<br><br>Many years ago I met personally with Betty =
McKaig, an intimate friend of Dr. Leonnel C. Strong. &nbsp;From that =
meeting I gained some important information that has been my source of =
long study. &nbsp;Unfortunately, my information was incomplete, and the =
majority of my time in this matter has been involved in the =
reconstruction of Strong's works. &nbsp;In some ways I have more than =
succeeded, and in other ways I was not even close, but the value of the =
work I allow to be judged by the Voynich Study Group.<br><br>Very =
recently I have discovered the long-sought-after papers of Dr. Strong, =
and I have begun a scanning operation that will make them available to =
all serious students. &nbsp;I have expressed my problems with their =
release to Gabriel Landini and Rene Zandbergen, as there are some =
problems that interfere with the release of my own work, but in the =
interest of true research I cannot withhold historical information from =
the academic community. &nbsp;Perhaps my years of research in this =
direction can aid the group in the study of these very important =
historical documents.<br><br>Most of you will not be familiar with the =
history of Strong's works, as there has been nothing publicly available =
of any significance for you to ponder. &nbsp;In an effort to fill the =
void, I will offer this short history:<br><br>Dr. Leonnel C. Strong was =
a Genetic Researcher whose claim to fame was the breeding of the first =
mouse strain that mimicked the human response to cancer. &nbsp;His years =
of research were, as far as I can ascertain, in the realm of cancer and =
immunology. &nbsp;His educational background was in genetic research at =
Yale, similar to the much acclaimed William Friedman. &nbsp;Friedman =
acquired a position in cryptology, but from the papers I read while with =
Betty McKaig, Strong's interest in cryptography was just as profound, =
the first papers bearing a date of 1917. &nbsp;(Strong was born on =
January 16, 1896, a date that has meaning to some individuals interested =
in cryptography). &nbsp;Many of Strong's discoveries in cryptography =
were never published, but his newly found letters indicate that there =
were many people indebted to his work in this area.<br><br>I have not =
yet evaluated the additional letters that arrived with this new =
information set, but the gist of my information from the letters I did =
possess was simply this:<br><br>Strong worked on only two pages of the =
Voynich from Newbold's reprints, but tried to gain more by contacting =
the owners. &nbsp;Strong's brother-in-law worked with Col. Friedman, and =
tried to impress upon him the importance of Strong's work. =
&nbsp;Friedman asked for that work in secret from Strong, and with =
Strong's refusal, interfered with Strong's efforts to gain access to the =
entire manuscript. (At this time Friedman was running a study group of =
his own.) &nbsp;It was because of Friedman's interference and the =
resultant refusal by the owners to release information that Strong never =
published his findings. &nbsp;As a professional man, he knew his =
findings were incomplete, and any release would be =
premature.<br><br>Strong's &quot;premature&quot; findings are what I =
possess, and what I offer to the group for study. &nbsp;My problem at =
the moment is how to contain them for access to the group. &nbsp;We are =
looking at a storage problem, and I am wondering if anybody has about =
20mb of web-accessible space to spare? &nbsp;Any offers would be =
appreciated.<br><br><br>Sincerely,<br><br><br>Rayman =
Malekei<br><br><br><br> &nbsp;<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> =
&nbsp;<br><br> &nbsp;<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></p>
</font></body></html>

--Boundary (ID 5Ot/4xp9hAd5N3WDbp9jmA)--

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 06:18 EST 1997
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From: "Milo Jones" <mjones@lbs.ac.uk>
Organization: London Business School
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:13:31 UTC
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thanks
Milo H L Jones
102 Charlbert Ct.
Eamont Street
St. John's Wood
London NW8 7DA
fax/voice: 0171-722-6273

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 06:29 EST 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:21:20 +0000
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Subject: EVA fonts
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Status: OR

Hi all,
For those of us who don't have Mac, Adobe Manager, TEX or just don't 
know how to use the Voynich fonts already available -- I qualify for 
all those ;-) -- I made 2 sets of EVA Voynich True Type fonts.

Voynich EVA Small is a thin, approximately constant thickness font.
Voynich EVA Hand A is a hand-A looking font.

Both fonts also have "Dee-like" looking numerals 0 to 9 -- now you 
can fake your own documents :-) and an ink-splash for the unreadable 
character *. I took the brilliant idea of the splash from Julie 
Porter's font sample sheet. (Julie, I eventually managed to print a 
PS sheet of your font from Jim R's site using Ghostcript).

The fonts can be downloaded from the EVMT page, Files & Links 
section:
http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know.

Regards to all,

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 07:53 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:44:48 +0200
Subject: The opening word...
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Dear all,

prior to what I wanted to say, I can recommend to all those like
me stuck on a PC/Windows combo to try the 'Hand A' font
announced by Gabriel.  With some practice you can learn to
distinguish it from 'the real thing', but it ain't easy :-)

Right.
The opening word (as far as we know) of the Voynich
Manuscript is 'VAS92'. That 'V' to start off the first paragraph
is very appropriate. However, the rest isn't. The word
VAS92 does not occur again in voynich.now. No problem
by itself, as there are plenty of unique words. What's more,
92 is rather unusual, and AS even more so. The word is
almost barbarous. Looking more closely, there are 17
lines in said file that have one or more occurrences of
92, and several of these are in words with other unusual
combinations:
92...CCCF, AZ...92, 4Q892, ...CD92, ..ICD92, 92OI2.
These would be good candidates for numbers.
There are only 5 cases of 'AS' and 3 of 'AZ' (note
especially that one of these also has '92').
Or are we looking at scribal errors? Surely not in the
first word of the MS!!

Cheers, Rene



From reeds Tue Feb 18 07:37:13 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9702180737.ZM24902@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:37:13 -0500
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--- Forwarded mail from rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>

Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:16:45 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
To: voynich@rand.org
Cc: Rene Zandbergen <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>,
        Gabriel Landini <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>

[ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 8662 bytes ]


---End of forwarded mail from rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

--PART-BOUNDARY=.19702180737.ZM24902.att.com
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--Boundary (ID 5Ot/4xp9hAd5N3WDbp9jmA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

This is my first appearance on the VSG, although I have listened to the
exchanges for quite awhile with some passing interest.  I hope my ideas are
received as well as everybody elses, but I have no doubt they will be with
such fine minds at work.

Some older Voynich students know me, but most of you do not.  I am the one
out there that keeps pushing the "polyalphabetic" idea and just won't let
it die.  After 11 years of research, a unique opportunity has presented
itself that could allow all of us to settle the "polyalphabetic" argument
once and for all.

Many years ago I met personally with Betty McKaig, an intimate friend of
Dr. Leonnel C. Strong.  From that meeting I gained some important
information that has been my source of long study.  Unfortunately, my
information was incomplete, and the majority of my time in this matter has
been involved in the reconstruction of Strong's works.  In some ways I have
more than succeeded, and in other ways I was not even close, but the value
of the work I allow to be judged by the Voynich Study Group.

Very recently I have discovered the long-sought-after papers of Dr. Strong,
and I have begun a scanning operation that will make them available to all
serious students.  I have expressed my problems with their release to
Gabriel Landini and Rene Zandbergen, as there are some problems that
interfere with the release of my own work, but in the interest of true
research I cannot withhold historical information from the academic
community.  Perhaps my years of research in this direction can aid the
group in the study of these very important historical documents.

Most of you will not be familiar with the history of Strong's works, as
there has been nothing publicly available of any significance for you to
ponder.  In an effort to fill the void, I will offer this short history:

Dr. Leonnel C. Strong was a Genetic Researcher whose claim to fame was the
breeding of the first mouse strain that mimicked the human response to
cancer.  His years of research were, as far as I can ascertain, in the
realm of cancer and immunology.  His educational background was in genetic
research at Yale, similar to the much acclaimed William Friedman.  Friedman
acquired a position in cryptology, but from the papers I read while with
Betty McKaig, Strong's interest in cryptography was just as profound, the
first papers bearing a date of 1917.  (Strong was born on January 16, 1896,
a date that has meaning to some individuals interested in cryptography). 
Many of Strong's discoveries in cryptography were never published, but his
newly found letters indicate that there were many people indebted to his
work in this area.

I have not yet evaluated the additional letters that arrived with this new
information set, but the gist of my information from the letters I did
possess was simply this:

Strong worked on only two pages of the Voynich from Newbold's reprints, but
tried to gain more by contacting the owners.  Strong's brother-in-law
worked with Col. Friedman, and tried to impress upon him the importance of
Strong's work.  Friedman asked for that work in secret from Strong, and
with Strong's refusal, interfered with Strong's efforts to gain access to
the entire manuscript. (At this time Friedman was running a study group of
his own.)  It was because of Friedman's interference and the resultant
refusal by the owners to release information that Strong never published
his findings.  As a professional man, he knew his findings were incomplete,
and any release would be premature.

Strong's "premature" findings are what I possess, and what I offer to the
group for study.  My problem at the moment is how to contain them for
access to the group.  We are looking at a storage problem, and I am
wondering if anybody has about 20mb of web-accessible space to spare?  Any
offers would be appreciated.


Sincerely,


Rayman Malekei



  






  

  








--Boundary (ID 5Ot/4xp9hAd5N3WDbp9jmA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial">This is my first appearance on the VSG, =
although I have listened to the exchanges for quite awhile with some =
passing interest. &nbsp;I hope my ideas are received as well as =
everybody elses, but I have no doubt they will be with such fine minds =
at work.<br><br>Some older Voynich students know me, but most of you do =
not. &nbsp;I am the one out there that keeps pushing the =
&quot;polyalphabetic&quot; idea and just won't let it die. &nbsp;After =
11 years of research, a unique opportunity has presented itself that =
could allow all of us to settle the &quot;polyalphabetic&quot; argument =
once and for all.<br><br>Many years ago I met personally with Betty =
McKaig, an intimate friend of Dr. Leonnel C. Strong. &nbsp;From that =
meeting I gained some important information that has been my source of =
long study. &nbsp;Unfortunately, my information was incomplete, and the =
majority of my time in this matter has been involved in the =
reconstruction of Strong's works. &nbsp;In some ways I have more than =
succeeded, and in other ways I was not even close, but the value of the =
work I allow to be judged by the Voynich Study Group.<br><br>Very =
recently I have discovered the long-sought-after papers of Dr. Strong, =
and I have begun a scanning operation that will make them available to =
all serious students. &nbsp;I have expressed my problems with their =
release to Gabriel Landini and Rene Zandbergen, as there are some =
problems that interfere with the release of my own work, but in the =
interest of true research I cannot withhold historical information from =
the academic community. &nbsp;Perhaps my years of research in this =
direction can aid the group in the study of these very important =
historical documents.<br><br>Most of you will not be familiar with the =
history of Strong's works, as there has been nothing publicly available =
of any significance for you to ponder. &nbsp;In an effort to fill the =
void, I will offer this short history:<br><br>Dr. Leonnel C. Strong was =
a Genetic Researcher whose claim to fame was the breeding of the first =
mouse strain that mimicked the human response to cancer. &nbsp;His years =
of research were, as far as I can ascertain, in the realm of cancer and =
immunology. &nbsp;His educational background was in genetic research at =
Yale, similar to the much acclaimed William Friedman. &nbsp;Friedman =
acquired a position in cryptology, but from the papers I read while with =
Betty McKaig, Strong's interest in cryptography was just as profound, =
the first papers bearing a date of 1917. &nbsp;(Strong was born on =
January 16, 1896, a date that has meaning to some individuals interested =
in cryptography). &nbsp;Many of Strong's discoveries in cryptography =
were never published, but his newly found letters indicate that there =
were many people indebted to his work in this area.<br><br>I have not =
yet evaluated the additional letters that arrived with this new =
information set, but the gist of my information from the letters I did =
possess was simply this:<br><br>Strong worked on only two pages of the =
Voynich from Newbold's reprints, but tried to gain more by contacting =
the owners. &nbsp;Strong's brother-in-law worked with Col. Friedman, and =
tried to impress upon him the importance of Strong's work. =
&nbsp;Friedman asked for that work in secret from Strong, and with =
Strong's refusal, interfered with Strong's efforts to gain access to the =
entire manuscript. (At this time Friedman was running a study group of =
his own.) &nbsp;It was because of Friedman's interference and the =
resultant refusal by the owners to release information that Strong never =
published his findings. &nbsp;As a professional man, he knew his =
findings were incomplete, and any release would be =
premature.<br><br>Strong's &quot;premature&quot; findings are what I =
possess, and what I offer to the group for study. &nbsp;My problem at =
the moment is how to contain them for access to the group. &nbsp;We are =
looking at a storage problem, and I am wondering if anybody has about =
20mb of web-accessible space to spare? &nbsp;Any offers would be =
appreciated.<br><br><br>Sincerely,<br><br><br>Rayman =
Malekei<br><br><br><br> &nbsp;<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> =
&nbsp;<br><br> &nbsp;<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></p>
</font></body></html>

--Boundary (ID 5Ot/4xp9hAd5N3WDbp9jmA)--


--PART-BOUNDARY=.19702180737.ZM24902.att.com--


From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 09:47 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 15:31:52 +0200
Subject: Re: The opening word...
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Status: OR





Philip Neal asks:

> But what exactly is the suggestion - are the words in
> question supposed to represent Arabic numerals, Roman
> numerals or words of some language written out in full?

Anything but the words... I am much in the dark as to
what ME usage was in this area. I have seen a page of
a Ms that had its year of origin (1444) on one of the
pages. Brumbaugh also claims that this was the case
in the upper right corner of f1r before it was
obliterated by the application of chemicals.

> If the rare combinations '92' 'AS' etc are supposed to
> be digits, why are they mixed up with combinations like
> 'OPCC' which are too common to be numerals?

Since one can almost certainly exclude the option that the
numerals and letters are separate character sets (otherwise
they would have been detected by now), the theory that the
same characters are used sometimes alphabetically,
sometimes numerically has some merit. I agree that the
evidence is very thin indeed.
Also note that the 4-times repeating sequence on f57v
very strongly suggest numbers. Then the sequence
on f49v is  made of 10 different ones...

> Remember that the use of Arabic numerals mixed up with natural > language
text (like this: "the king marched with 10,000 men on > 18 February") was
not common practice until well into the 17th > century.

I always wondered about this. I presume in earlier times
this would have been written out in words. Do you
know how year numbers or especially dates would normally
be written in, say, the late 15th C.

> Also bear in mind that the common number ..... symbols
> conform rather prettily to Zipf's law.

This is not in contradiction with my previous post. But
only yesterday I read in Bennett that the 2nd order
entropy of numbers is (relatively) higher than for
'words', and this is what I observed: unusual (i.e. more
varied) combinations.

Cheers, Rene




From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 08:56 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 13:50:35 GMT
Message-Id: <29070.9702181350@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The opening word...
Status: OR


I applaud the search for numerals in the manuscript:  a prose text this length
must undoubtedly contain some.  But what exactly is the suggestion - are the
words in question supposed to represent Arabic numerals, Roman numerals or
words of some language written out in full?

1.  If the rare combinations '92' 'AS' etc are supposed to be digits, why are
they mixed up with combinations like 'OPCC' which are too common to be numerals?

2.  Roman numerals have a distinctive, redundant structure which I can't detect
here.

3.  There is no particular reason why natural language number words should 
contain rare characters.

Remember that the use of Arabic numerals mixed up with natural language text
(like this: "the king marched with 10,000 men on 18 February") was not common
practice until well into the 17th century.

Also bear in mind that the common number words and symbols conform rather 
prettily to Zipf's law (the proportion of 'one' to 'two' to 'three' is roughly
logarithmic, as is that of '1' to '2' to '3').

Philip Neal
Department of Computer Science
University of Essex

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 11:27 EST 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Another opening word
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 16:08:19 GMT
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Status: OR

     From Denis V Mardle

   On the famous f57v with it's four outer rings, the third having the =
four times repeated 17 
long 'alphabet' - although the ninth symbol wants to be V twice and B twi=
ce ( using Currier's 
version  -  F and P in the FSG one ).  .  The 4th and 12th symbols are =
also confusingly similar. 
What is not so well known is that the inner ring has four consecutive wor=
ds with the rest as 
31 or 32 individual symbols except for  AM,  AR and  E AR or 8AR.   Note =
that AT acts as the 
only multiple symbol in the 34 long vertical column on f66r - I am still =
using Currier .  I suppose 
it is just a coincidence that 34 is twice 17 - or is it ?    Certainly =
f66r does not repeat but does 
have rare symbols which is not true of f49v, f76v or f69r key-like sequen=
ces. 

    All this reinforces the long held view that we are seeing numbers whi=
ch can have two main 
uses  - 1) as numbers in times, dates etc.   The double lines of text on =
f67v2  seem to have 
many numbers ( times of astronomical observations ? ) and one paragraph =
of f111v ends 
  AR AR AN AER AR OEOR  

    Now to the 'opening' word on f57v.  There is a start line across the =
4 rings and outside it at 
the right 'start' or 'begin' place we have 8ATAE.  One would like to find=
 this on similar pages 
with possible start areas, but if my run was correct the word is not on =
the Currier file that I had 
downloaded.  8ATAE  is probably a word of type 2) with numbers denoting =
syllables or longer 
stretches of symbols.

       Denis


From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 17 20:20 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:46:23 -0800
From: "Jacques B.M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: F66r - Grammar?
References: <3308F248.19AD@fox.nstn.ca>
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John & Sue Grove wrote:
 
> Once again, I submit a page with a few thoughts for
> consideration...
 
>      This is (F66r) using the four accents/tones (I replaced the numbers 
      with variations of diacritics).  Is it possible
> that this resembles a grammatical context? - when to use prepositions, 
  prefixes, suffixes or the like.  Is it possible that
> the whole book is a "How to speak Voynich" textbook?  Well, anything's possible...

Repetitions can be explained as indicative of lists. For instance, if
you open
a Chinese-English dictionary at the index of characters at the end,
under
the radical for "gold/metal", not knowing what the wretched means (if
anything), you will see the same jumble of strokes recurring almost
regularly, with, in-between, jumbles of strokes of increasing complexity
(characters are sorted in order of increasing number of strokes).

Repetitive patterns occur in sorted lists. In grammatical paradigms, for
instance: rosa, rosa, rosam, rosae, rosae, rosa, rosae, rosae, rosas,
rosarum, rosis, rosis.

So, the Voynich repetitions can indicate lists, and can therefore
reflect
grammatical paradigms. They can also indicate a language with extensive
grammatical concordance (Swahili: kitabu kikubwa kimoja "one big book",
vitabu vikubwa viwili "two big books"). Or a language which makes a
great
use of reduplications (e.g. Indonesian). Or glossolalia (olosebilele,
olosebilolo, ololosebilele... I just made it up off the top of my head).
Or prayers (as far as they are lists: the Roman Catholic Litanies of the
Holy Virgin, for instance, which are repetitions of Ave Maria xxxx in
which xxxx is her varying attribute: Stella Maris, etc.)

It's all very repetitive, that's for sure. Beyond that, your imagination
is your oyster!

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 17:11 EST 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199702182211.OAA13387@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Strong [Re: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student]
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Status: OR

Rayman Malakei says:
> Very recently I have discovered the long-sought-after papers of Dr. Strong,
> and I have begun a scanning operation that will make them available to all
> serious students.  I have expressed my problems with their release to

Well done!  Can you tell us anything about Strong's methods?  Anything
in the paper that correlates ciphertext to his published "plaintext"?

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 23:32 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:29:38 -0800
To: voynich@rand.org
From: jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)
Subject: Re: EVA fonts
Status: OR

>Hi all,
>For those of us who don't have Mac, Adobe Manager, TEX or just don't
>know how to use the Voynich fonts already available -- I qualify for
>all those ;-) -- I made 2 sets of EVA Voynich True Type fonts.
>
>Voynich EVA Small is a thin, approximately constant thickness font.
>Voynich EVA Hand A is a hand-A looking font.
>
>Both fonts also have "Dee-like" looking numerals 0 to 9 -- now you
>can fake your own documents :-) and an ink-splash for the unreadable
>character *. I took the brilliant idea of the splash from Julie
>Porter's font sample sheet. (Julie, I eventually managed to print a
>PS sheet of your font from Jim R's site using Ghostcript).
You should since I did some of the development work with that program.
Saves printing lots of sheets of paper
-jP
>
>The fonts can be downloaded from the EVMT page, Files & Links
>section:
>http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm
>
>If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know.
>
>Regards to all,
>
>Gabriel



From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 00:29 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 22:28:50 -0700 (MST)
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To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
From: djl@montana.com (Don Latham)
Subject: Re: EVA fonts
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Status: OR

>Hi all,
>For those of us who don't have Mac, Adobe Manager, TEX or just don't 
>know how to use the Voynich fonts already available -- I qualify for 
>all those ;-) -- I made 2 sets of EVA Voynich True Type fonts.
>
>Voynich EVA Small is a thin, approximately constant thickness font.
>Voynich EVA Hand A is a hand-A looking font.
>
>Both fonts also have "Dee-like" looking numerals 0 to 9 -- now you 
>can fake your own documents :-) and an ink-splash for the unreadable 
>character *. I took the brilliant idea of the splash from Julie 
>Porter's font sample sheet. (Julie, I eventually managed to print a 
>PS sheet of your font from Jim R's site using Ghostcript).
>
>The fonts can be downloaded from the EVMT page, Files & Links 
>section:
>http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm
>
>If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know.
>
>Regards to all,
>
>Gabriel
>
WELL DONE!!!!!!!!! (AND RARE AT THE SAME TIME) :-)
Don Latham
pob 460134
Huson, MT 59846
djl@montana.com


From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 01:17 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 22:18:04 -0800
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Michael Kubecka <misha@crl.com>
Subject: Voynich Fonts for Macintosh?
Status: OR

>For those of us who don't have Mac, Adobe Manager, TEX or just don't
>know how to use the Voynich fonts already available -- I qualify for
>all those ;-) -- I made 2 sets of EVA Voynich True Type fonts.

Any leads on fonts for people who _do_ have Macs and Adobe Type Manager?
Or suggestions as to how to convert these fonts for use with a Macintosh?
I haven't yet tried to crank any of these through the likes of Fontographer
-- perhaps that would facilitate conversion...

The Voynich postscript type 1 and type 3 fonts, and the true type fonts
I've found are not adequate for a Macintosh: I need bitmap fonts to go with
the postscript fonts; and in any case, I need very specific Macintosh font
resource information for these various kinds of fonts.

I'm very eager to see and use these fonts.

Thanks in advance for any help,

-- misha@crl.com



From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 05:35 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 10:29:56 GMT
Message-Id: <5098.9702191029@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The opening word...
Status: OR


Late mediaeval and renaissance representation of numbers was not consistent,
as we see in this sentence from Ascham (English Works, ed Wright, p. 42):

For God in takyng away one Spanyard hath made Naples now more strong, then if
the Emperour had set xx. thousand of the best in Spayne there:  for even this
last Lent .1553. Don Pietro di Toledo dyed at Florence...

The only sure principle is that Roman numerals were once commoner than they are
now and Arabic ones rarer.  It is of course difficult to write out a sequence
of numbers in Roman numerals, so Arabic numerals first became common in
connection with mathematics and astronomy, and somewhat later for dates and
chapter and verse of the Bible and the classics.

The various Middle English readers illustrate this, though editors sometimes
normalise the texts in the direction of modern practice.

Philip Neal

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 18 16:21 EST 1997
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Message-Id: <330B2765.335E@trl.telstra.com.au>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:37 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Reply-To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: EVA fonts
References: <9702181121.AA05951@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
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Status: OR

For those of you who haven't already, do download those
fonts: EVA Hand A is  *SUPERB*   It's like seeing the
VMS in the vellum. And the capitalization rule from 
frogguy works very well adapted to EVA.

From reeds Wed Feb 19 16:19:29 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9702191619.ZM19069@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:19:29 -0500
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Voynich: Another decipherment of the VMS, from Russia
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

I have a copy of Stojko's book, and discussed it in a post to this list on 6
April 1992.  It is listed in my bibliography 
  
	http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/bib.html

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 18:32 EST 1997
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:25:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Etruscan Origins
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970219172352.21743A-100000@echo.sound.net>
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    Ah, what a superb opportunity to present my great discovery! 

    The Voynich Manuscript is actually in ... Etruscan!  

    In the last decades B.C., the Etruscans were aware that their 
unique and ancient culture was in danger of dying out.  Therefore, 
they decided to establish a colony in a remote location where they 
could continue their ancient ways without interference.  This colony 
they did in fact establish in a remote valley in the Alps, in what is 
now southwestern Switzerland, near the Italian border.  A generous 
endowment by the Roman Emperor Claudius, whose sympathy for and 
scholarly interest in the Etruscan culture is well known, enabled them 
to do this successfully.  The name of the colony is as yet unknown to 
us, but we may call it Etruria Nova.   

    Hidden in its remote Alpine valley, the Etruscan colony survived 
the fall of the Roman Empire and the coming of the Middle Ages in 
peace.  There the Etruscan colonists continued their ancient language 
and customs.  

    When they set up their colony, the Etruscans successfully 
transplanted the now-extinct antique Mediterranean contraceptive herb 
silphium (see Archaeology, Mar/Apr 1994) to their Alpine valley and 
cultivated it there.  They maintained a brisk trade in silphium with 
their neighbors.  Folio f55r shows the silphium plant.  The biological 
folios of what we currently call the Voynich Manuscript show the 
Etruscan women taking their monthly baths in an infusion of silphium.    

    However, apart from the silphium trade, the Etruscan culture 
remained isolated from the outside world.  Inevitably it grew ingrown 
and deteriorated.  Around 1480, the last two great geniuses of the 
Etruscan culture attempted a cultural revival.  The names of these 
geniuses are as yet unknown to us, but we may call the first one, a 
man, A, and the second one, his wife, B.  (The Etruscan culture always 
accorded high status to women, much to the scandal of the ancient 
Romans.)  
    
    What A and B wrote was a version of the great traditional epic  of 
Etruscan culture, *The Testament of the Six Patriarchs and the Six 
Matriarchs of Etruria*  However, they attempted to bring in elements 
of outside European culture to rejuvenate it.   A and B abandoned the 
ancient Etruscan script and invented a new system of writing based on 
northern Italian scripts of the time.  It involved using several 
choices of two or three characters for each phoneme.  They introduced 
elements of mainstream European art and the nascent European science 
of the time.  Thus they wrote the document we call the Voynich 
Manuscript, but whose real name is *The Testament of the Six 
Patriarchs and the Six Matriarchs of Etruria Nova* .   
    
    A and B shared the work, of course.  They also wished to reconcile 
the two main clans of the Etruscans, so A wrote in the dialect of one 
moiety of the Etruscan culture and B wrote in the dialect of the other 
moiety.  Thus they set down for the last time the distilled 
astrological, herbal, and medical lore and knowledge of the sons and 
daughters of Etruria Nova.   
    
    However, A and B were the last bright stars of their culture.  The 
colony continued to deteriorate after their deaths.  In 1596, Andrei 
de Kereshtur, the accountant of the notorious "Blood Countess" 
Elizabeth Bathory of Hungary, passed through the Etruscan's remote 
Alpine valley on business.  Needing cash, the Etruscans sold de 
Kereshtur a copy of the *Testament*.  In their addled thinking, they 
believed that no one would ever be able to read their secrets, as 
their language had never been well known to outsiders.   
    
    De Kereshtur presented the odd manuscript to Elizabeth Bathory's 
alchemists.  But Bathory's great alchemist Silvestri was gone, having 
been murdered in 1585, and his pupils were not his equal.  They could 
not make sense of the *Testament*.  Therefore in 1597 de Kereshtur, 
during another business trip to Prague, sold the *Testament* to 
Rudolph II for a tidy profit.  
    
    For the Etruscans, the final catastrophe came on August 6, 1602.  
Swiss mercenaries, returning home from duty as Swiss Guards at the 
Vatican, passed through the remote Alpine valley of the Etruscan 
colony.  Long deprived of female companionship, they made eager 
advances to the still-attractive Etruscan maidens.  As true daughters 
of Etruria Nova, they spurned the attentions of these outsiders.  In a 
drunken rage, the Swiss mercenaries fell upon the Etruscans and 
massacred them all.   Thus 2600 years of Etruscan history came to a 
tragic close.  
    
    So the task of decipherment of the *Testament* is fairly well-
defined.  There is even some ready help available:  
     
    Bilbija, S. S. (Svetislav S.);  *The mummy of Zagreb and other 
Etruscan, Lydian and Lycian written monuments (1st Eng. ed.).* 
(Chicago, IL: Institute of Etruscan Studies (2800 Lake Shore Dr., 
Chicago 60657), c1989.)  317 p.;   P 1078 B53 1989 
        
    In a brillant piece of work rivalling that of Michael Ventris, 
Bilbija has deciphered the Etruscan Mummy Book.  This is obviously an 
archaic version of the *Testament*.  With such brillant work to guide 
us, and with the aid of my even more brillant EKT Hypothesis, we 
should be able to quickly decipher A & B's late invented script.  
    
    Of course, it always helps to have funding.  This story suggests a 
hitherto-unconsidered source of funding for the remaining work of 
decipherment (as well as for the enrichment of the Third Study Group).  
The silphium plant may still grow in the remote Alpine valley where 
the colony of Etruria Nova once existed.  If we decipher the 
*Testament*, it may contain clues to the colony's location.  Perhaps a 
Swiss pharmaceutical company like Ciba-Geigy would underwrite the 
remaining work in return for exclusive rights to the silphium plant, 
which might be rediscovered upon completion of the decipherment.  Of 
course, the Roman Catholic Church might pose some opposition to this 
project.   
    
    
;-)      ;-)       ;-)    
Dennis



From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 21:05 EST 1997
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From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
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	  Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:02:40 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:02:40 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: "Kibabour"?
Status: OR

"Kibabour"?

Frogguy suggests >I am toying with the idea of publishing a decipherment.
Anyone would like to join in the fun? We would publish it under a pseudonym
of course. What do you think of "Kibabour"?<

Never! The Bourbakistes persecuted Benoit Mandelbrot (his uncle WAS a
Bourbakiste)! - It's kinda died down, but the Mandelbrot set (or as its
adepts know it, The Object) was up there with Voynich as an off-the-wall
cult.

(Bourbaki, always alleged to be one person, is or was a consortium of about
15 French mathematicians who earlier in this century published a very
formalistic multi-volume treatise on mathematics.)

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist
Knoxville TN

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 21:45 EST 1997
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:38:03 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: Michael S. Lynch <mlynch@mail07.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 5:18 PM



----------
> From: Michael S. Lynch <mlynch@mail07.mitre.org>
> To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
> Subject: RE: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
> Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 10:03 AM
> 
> Hello Rayman,
>  I was wondering if your choice of the internet name "madimi" had any
special 
> meaning. I refer to the John Dee diaries of 1583 in particular.
> Best regards,
>  Michael Lynch

Hello Michael, and nice to meet you!

The name "madimi" has very special significance, and is drawn from Dee's
Quinti Libri Mysteriorum.  Madimi is a key to the tables that follow the
Sigillum, and I use the name because of the special significance it had to
Dee himself.  Madimi is the in-road to the tables of Liber Sextus et
Sanctus, but this is not magic I speak of - I speak only of cipher and the
extensive works of a very brilliant mind.  It was in fact the study of Dee
that led me to the Voynich in the first place.

Does this answer your question satisfactorily?

Regards, Rayman


--Boundary (ID 5GjAlwxv3gPCmEOG4M3MiA)
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial"><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>From: rmalek &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>madimi@internetMCI.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>To: Michael S. Lynch &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mlynch@mail07.mitre.org</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>Subject: Re: New Group Member, Old Voynich =
Student<br>Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 5:18 PM<br><br><font =
size=3D2 color=3D"#0000FF"><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>&gt; From: Michael S. Lynch &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mlynch@mail07.mitre.org</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: rmalek &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>madimi@internetmci.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: New Group Member, Old =
Voynich Student<br>&gt; Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 10:03 =
AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hello Rayman,<br>&gt; &nbsp;I was wondering if your =
choice of the internet name &quot;madimi&quot; had any special <br>&gt; =
meaning. I refer to the John Dee diaries of 1583 in particular.<br>&gt; =
Best regards,<br>&gt; &nbsp;Michael Lynch<br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><br><font color=3D"#000000">Hello Michael, and nice to =
meet you!<br><br>The name &quot;madimi&quot; has very special =
significance, and is drawn from Dee's Quinti Libri Mysteriorum. =
&nbsp;Madimi is a key to the tables that follow the Sigillum, and I use =
the name because of the special significance it had to Dee himself. =
&nbsp;Madimi is the in-road to the tables of Liber Sextus et Sanctus, =
but this is not magic I speak of - I speak only of cipher and the =
extensive works of a very brilliant mind. &nbsp;It was in fact the study =
of Dee that led me to the Voynich in the first place.<br><br>Does this =
answer your question satisfactorily?<br><br>Regards, Rayman<br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><br><font size=3D2 color=3D"#000000"><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>

--Boundary (ID 5GjAlwxv3gPCmEOG4M3MiA)--

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 21:50 EST 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:40:27 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:38:32 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: 20 Mb of disk space for Dr. Strong
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Message-id: <01IFM5H3S43I8WWAKR@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160
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--Boundary (ID ++Fzs2r85KSvAXAaLHzCBQ)
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit



----------
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: Misha <misha@crl.com>
Subject: Re: 20 Mb of disk space for Dr. Strong
Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 6:47 PM



----------
> From: Misha <misha@crl.com>
> To: madimi@internetmci.com
> Cc: rzandber@esoc.esa.de; landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk
> Subject: 20 Mb of disk space for Dr. Strong
> Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 3:59 PM
> 
> Rayman,
> 
>    Someone has undoubtedly responded already with an offer for a place to
> store your documents.  However, if no one has offered, I think I might be
> able to offer a bunch of space and a fast connection (there are some
> logistical problems I'd have to work on, but I think they'd be
solveable).
> How would you want to serve these documents?  HTTP?  FTP?
> 
> -- misha@crl.com
> 
Hello Misha, and thank you for your offer!

You were the first to respond, and despite what I considered a major
announcement only Gillogly has replied with any interest at this time. 
Perhaps the "Voynichers" are slow to read their mail.

I believe the importance of the work necessitates computer access, but I
have never wanted the access to be to non-interested parties.  I was
thinking that an FTP would be the best way to accommodate the work, and I
would provide an index in html format to the group so they could choose the
pages they wished to download.

Any assistance at all in storage of these pages would be appreciated to no
end.  Thanks!!!


Rayman Malekei






.  

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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial"><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>From: rmalek &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>madimi@internetMCI.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>To: Misha &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>misha@crl.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>Subject: Re: 20 Mb of disk space for Dr. =
Strong<br>Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 6:47 PM<br><br><font =
size=3D2 color=3D"#0000FF"><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>&gt; From: Misha &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>misha@crl.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>madimi@internetmci.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; Cc: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>rzandber@esoc.esa.de</u><font color=3D"#000000">; =
<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; Subject: 20 Mb of disk space for Dr. =
Strong<br>&gt; Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 3:59 PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Rayman,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Someone has undoubtedly =
responded already with an offer for a place to<br>&gt; store your =
documents. &nbsp;However, if no one has offered, I think I might =
be<br>&gt; able to offer a bunch of space and a fast connection (there =
are some<br>&gt; logistical problems I'd have to work on, but I think =
they'd be solveable).<br>&gt; How would you want to serve these =
documents? &nbsp;HTTP? &nbsp;FTP?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; -- <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>misha@crl.com</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; =
<br><font color=3D"#0000FF">Hello Misha, and thank you for your =
offer!<br><br>You were the first to respond, and despite what I =
considered a major announcement only Gillogly has replied with any =
interest at this time. &nbsp;Perhaps the &quot;Voynichers&quot; are slow =
to read their mail.<br><br>I believe the importance of the work =
necessitates computer access, but I have never wanted the access to be =
to non-interested parties. &nbsp;I was thinking that an FTP would be the =
best way to accommodate the work, and I would provide an index in html =
format to the group so they could choose the pages they wished to =
download.<br><br>Any assistance at all in storage of these pages would =
be appreciated to no end. &nbsp;Thanks!!!<br><br><br>Rayman =
Malekei<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>. &nbsp;<br><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000"><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body=
></html>

--Boundary (ID ++Fzs2r85KSvAXAaLHzCBQ)--

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 21:48 EST 1997
Received: by fry; Wed Feb 19 21:47 EST 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:43:08 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:41:24 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Message-id: <01IFM5KFH80C8WWAKR@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit



----------
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: Michael S. Lynch <mlynch@mail07.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 5:18 PM



----------
> From: Michael S. Lynch <mlynch@mail07.mitre.org>
> To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
> Subject: RE: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student
> Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 10:03 AM
> 
> Hello Rayman,
>  I was wondering if your choice of the internet name "madimi" had any
special 
> meaning. I refer to the John Dee diaries of 1583 in particular.
> Best regards,
>  Michael Lynch

Hello Michael, and nice to meet you!

The name "madimi" has very special significance, and is drawn from Dee's
Quinti Libri Mysteriorum.  Madimi is a key to the tables that follow the
Sigillum, and I use the name because of the special significance it had to
Dee himself.  Madimi is the in-road to the tables of Liber Sextus et
Sanctus, but this is not magic I speak of - I speak only of cipher and the
extensive works of a very brilliant mind.  It was in fact the study of Dee
that led me to the Voynich in the first place.

Does this answer your question satisfactorily?

Regards, Rayman


--Boundary (ID uvvjrU9+Us585hl+7ZvzqQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial"><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>From: rmalek &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>madimi@internetMCI.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>To: Michael S. Lynch &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mlynch@mail07.mitre.org</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>Subject: Re: New Group Member, Old Voynich =
Student<br>Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 5:18 PM<br><br><font =
size=3D2 color=3D"#0000FF"><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>&gt; From: Michael S. Lynch &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mlynch@mail07.mitre.org</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: rmalek &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>madimi@internetmci.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: New Group Member, Old =
Voynich Student<br>&gt; Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 10:03 =
AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hello Rayman,<br>&gt; &nbsp;I was wondering if your =
choice of the internet name &quot;madimi&quot; had any special <br>&gt; =
meaning. I refer to the John Dee diaries of 1583 in particular.<br>&gt; =
Best regards,<br>&gt; &nbsp;Michael Lynch<br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><br><font color=3D"#000000">Hello Michael, and nice to =
meet you!<br><br>The name &quot;madimi&quot; has very special =
significance, and is drawn from Dee's Quinti Libri Mysteriorum. =
&nbsp;Madimi is a key to the tables that follow the Sigillum, and I use =
the name because of the special significance it had to Dee himself. =
&nbsp;Madimi is the in-road to the tables of Liber Sextus et Sanctus, =
but this is not magic I speak of - I speak only of cipher and the =
extensive works of a very brilliant mind. &nbsp;It was in fact the study =
of Dee that led me to the Voynich in the first place.<br><br>Does this =
answer your question satisfactorily?<br><br>Regards, Rayman<br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><br><font size=3D2 color=3D"#000000"><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>

--Boundary (ID uvvjrU9+Us585hl+7ZvzqQ)--

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 21:47 EST 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:43:12 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:41:51 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: Strong's notes
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Message-id: <01IFM5KHCBTC8WWAKR@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-version: 1.0
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----------
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: Jim Gillogly <jimg@mentat.com>
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 6:38 PM



----------
> From: Jim Gillogly <jimg@mentat.com>
> To: voynich@rand.org
> Subject: Strong [Re: New Group Member, Old Voynich Student]
> Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 3:11 PM
> 
> Rayman Malakei says:
> > Very recently I have discovered the long-sought-after papers of Dr.
Strong,
> > and I have begun a scanning operation that will make them available to
all
> > serious students.  I have expressed my problems with their release to
> 
> Well done!  Can you tell us anything about Strong's methods?  Anything
> in the paper that correlates ciphertext to his published "plaintext"?
> 
> 	Jim Gillogly
> 	jim@acm.org

Strong's ciphertext and plaintext of folio 78 recto are fully extant, while
there is some confusion as to what happened to the pages of 93 recto. 
There are some clues as to where to look, but a complete copy of his
plaintext for 93 recto exists within the files.  Some of this I had in my
possession before, and has been the basis of my work.  What is new to me is
a series of alphabets and worksheets that should allow an approximate
tracking of Strong's methodology.  This includes alphabet charts and
worksheets for folio 93 recto.  An extensive analysis should enlighten us
on anything I have not already deduced about his methods of decipherment.

A fact that Rene Zandbergen once commented on is that I have been trying to
give this project away for some time.  This is quite true, but I never
found anyone as interested in the project as I am, and I never had all the
facts to offer when trying to give it away.  This new discovery should make
for something interesting to everyone in your group.  Bear in mind that I
have had some luck with my re-creation of Strong's works, and I will do
everything in my power to keep the thoughts flowing on the beam.  I am of
the belief that Strong was closer to correct than anything I have heard in
my lifetime, and I believe my own results prove this.

The arena of published "plaintext" for Strong's decipherment is where I
fight the most, and the reason is simply this - Both Kahn and D'Imperio
only published the short section of folio 78 recto, which began:  "When
skuge vf tunc bag rip ...".  Kahn regarded this section as "nonsense", and
all D'Imperio did was repeat the statements of Kahn.  I do not find this
example to be in the best interest of research, especially since both of
them claim to have read the later article by Dr. Strong.  This article
contained two separate passages from folio 93 recto, and when matched
against the cipher text we find them to be one contiguous passage (a point
Strong may have been attempting to hide).  The first passage printed by
Strong reads:

" I up a bol koten wet with oil spindl, compound honei, a pine recin gains
piler ose firm, err fuck stirt.  Wanne orgie ebb, so koten be remov'd."

The second passage reads thus:

"Haawe-tre aple etten vnlich arums can drave wicks air fram spleen:  like
sisle he dris gas aut ovari.  Ovaral seede dri real . . . Pithie Plini
sumac swuag whit.  Big prunes es rues reliv the whites.  Ores drunk can
ease thi pain from astral flux's.  Ocra soup can I depend on fore over
flux.  Too urs lus flo, alum en oaten wha ease tot'l.  Trew papa'n holde
esence stirt en te mense arli -."

What I did originally was match these lines to my perceived interpretation
of the cipher characters using consecutive word frequency correspondence. 
I came up with a better than 97% chance that my placement was correct.  The
resulting contiguous text applied against consecutive cipher groups is as
follows:

"Haawe-tre aple etten vnlich arums can drave wicks air fram spleen:  like
sisle he dris gas aut ovari.  Ovaral seede dri real.   I up a bol koten wet
with oil spindl, compound honei, a pine recin gains piler ose firm, err
fuck stirt.  Wanne orgie ebb, so [???] koten be remov'd.  Pithie Plini
sumac swuag hwit.  Big prunes es rues reliv the whites.  Ores drunk can
ease thi pain from astral flux's.  Ocra soup can I depend on fore over
flux.  Too urs lus flo, alum en oaten wha ease tot'l.  Trew papa'n holde
esence stirt en te mense arli -."

Interestingly enough, Strong's newly discovered notes show my work was
accurate on this point.  I believe Strong separated and disordered his
publication to keep individuals such as myself from usurping his claim. 
His publications were after all, only to entice the owners of the
manuscript into allowing him to continue his efforts of decipherment.  What
I find deplorable is that no competent researcher has ever offered this
contiguous text to the public as an example of Strong's decipherment
attempts.  What is also of concern is that these texts have been readily
available to the serious researcher, and because of comments like those
made by Kahn and D'Imperio no one but myself has ever pursued them as a
subject of research.  Perhaps we too readily accept the opinions of
"experts" in our age.

Strong and his methods have been judged and rejected by all the leading
experts, and for some this is a case closed and best forgotten.  That case
was tried in the 1940's.  I have made my appearance to argue in his favor
and demand that the spirit of true research be rekindled.  I demand a
re-trial.  I will accept nothing less.


Regards,
Rayman Malekei





















--Boundary (ID i32RtdBd/hmbGLI6kNbCFA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial"><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>From: rmalek &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>madimi@internetMCI.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>To: Jim Gillogly &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>jimg@mentat.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>Subject: Re: Strong's notes<br>Date: =
Wednesday, February 19, 1997 6:38 PM<br><br><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF"><br><br><font color=3D"#000000">----------<br>&gt; =
From: Jim Gillogly &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>jimg@mentat.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>voynich@rand.org</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; Subject: Strong [Re: New Group Member, Old =
Voynich Student]<br>&gt; Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 3:11 =
PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Rayman Malakei says:<br>&gt; &gt; Very recently I =
have discovered the long-sought-after papers of Dr. Strong,<br>&gt; &gt; =
and I have begun a scanning operation that will make them available to =
all<br>&gt; &gt; serious students. &nbsp;I have expressed my problems =
with their release to<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Well done! &nbsp;Can you tell us =
anything about Strong's methods? &nbsp;Anything<br>&gt; in the paper =
that correlates ciphertext to his published =
&quot;plaintext&quot;?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &#009;Jim Gillogly<br>&gt; =
&#009;<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>jim@acm.org<br></u><br>Strong's =
ciphertext and plaintext of folio 78 recto are fully extant, while there =
is some confusion as to what happened to the pages of 93 recto. =
&nbsp;There are some clues as to where to look, but a complete copy of =
his plaintext for 93 recto exists within the files. &nbsp;Some of this I =
had in my possession before, and has been the basis of my work. =
&nbsp;What is new to me is a series of alphabets and worksheets that =
should allow an approximate tracking of Strong's methodology. &nbsp;This =
includes alphabet charts and worksheets for folio 93 recto. &nbsp;An =
extensive analysis should enlighten us on anything I have not already =
deduced about his methods of decipherment.<br><br>A fact that Rene =
Zandbergen once commented on is that I have been trying to give this =
project away for some time. &nbsp;This is quite true, but I never found =
anyone as interested in the project as I am, and I never had all the =
facts to offer when trying to give it away. &nbsp;This new discovery =
should make for something interesting to everyone in your group. =
&nbsp;Bear in mind that I have had some luck with my re-creation of =
Strong's works, and I will do everything in my power to keep the =
thoughts flowing on the beam. &nbsp;I am of the belief that Strong was =
closer to correct than anything I have heard in my lifetime, and I =
believe my own results prove this.<br><br>The arena of published =
&quot;plaintext&quot; for Strong's decipherment is where I fight the =
most, and the reason is simply this - Both Kahn and D'Imperio only =
published the short section of folio 78 recto, which began: =
&nbsp;&quot;When skuge vf tunc bag rip ...&quot;. &nbsp;Kahn regarded =
this section as &quot;nonsense&quot;, and all D'Imperio did was repeat =
the statements of Kahn. &nbsp;I do not find this example to be in the =
best interest of research, especially since both of them claim to have =
read the later article by Dr. Strong. &nbsp;This article contained two =
separate passages from folio 93 recto, and when matched against the =
cipher text we find them to be one contiguous passage (a point Strong =
may have been attempting to hide). &nbsp;The first passage printed by =
Strong reads:<br><br>&quot; I up a bol koten wet with oil spindl, =
compound honei, a pine recin gains piler ose firm, err fuck stirt. =
&nbsp;Wanne orgie ebb, so koten be remov'd.&quot;<br><br>The second =
passage reads thus:<br><br>&quot;Haawe-tre aple etten vnlich arums can =
drave wicks air fram spleen: &nbsp;like sisle he dris gas aut ovari. =
&nbsp;Ovaral seede dri real . . . Pithie Plini sumac swuag whit. =
&nbsp;Big prunes es rues reliv the whites. &nbsp;Ores drunk can ease thi =
pain from astral flux's. &nbsp;Ocra soup can I depend on fore over flux. =
&nbsp;Too urs lus flo, alum en oaten wha ease tot'l. &nbsp;Trew papa'n =
holde esence stirt en te mense arli -.&quot;<br><br>What I did =
originally was match these lines to my perceived interpretation of the =
cipher characters using consecutive word frequency correspondence. =
&nbsp;I came up with a better than 97% chance that my placement was =
correct. &nbsp;The resulting contiguous text applied against consecutive =
cipher groups is as follows:<br><br>&quot;Haawe-tre aple etten vnlich =
arums can drave wicks air fram spleen: &nbsp;like sisle he dris gas aut =
ovari. &nbsp;Ovaral seede dri real. &nbsp;&nbsp;I up a bol koten wet =
with oil spindl, compound honei, a pine recin gains piler ose firm, err =
fuck stirt. &nbsp;Wanne orgie ebb, so [???] koten be remov'd. =
&nbsp;Pithie Plini sumac swuag hwit. &nbsp;Big prunes es rues reliv the =
whites. &nbsp;Ores drunk can ease thi pain from astral flux's. =
&nbsp;Ocra soup can I depend on fore over flux. &nbsp;Too urs lus flo, =
alum en oaten wha ease tot'l. &nbsp;Trew papa'n holde esence stirt en te =
mense arli -.&quot;<br><br>Interestingly enough, Strong's newly =
discovered notes show my work was accurate on this point. &nbsp;I =
believe Strong separated and disordered his publication to keep =
individuals such as myself from usurping his claim. &nbsp;His =
publications were after all, only to entice the owners of the manuscript =
into allowing him to continue his efforts of decipherment. &nbsp;What I =
find deplorable is that no competent researcher has ever offered this =
contiguous text to the public as an example of Strong's decipherment =
attempts. &nbsp;What is also of concern is that these texts have been =
readily available to the serious researcher, and because of comments =
like those made by Kahn and D'Imperio no one but myself has ever pursued =
them as a subject of research. &nbsp;Perhaps we too readily accept the =
opinions of &quot;experts&quot; in our age.<br><br>Strong and his =
methods have been judged and rejected by all the leading experts, and =
for some this is a case closed and best forgotten. &nbsp;That case was =
tried in the 1940's. &nbsp;I have made my appearance to argue in his =
favor and demand that the spirit of true research be rekindled. &nbsp;I =
demand a re-trial. &nbsp;I will accept nothing =
less.<br><br><br>Regards,<br>Rayman =
Malekei<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><b=
r><br><br><br><br><font size=3D2 color=3D"#000000"><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></body></html>

--Boundary (ID i32RtdBd/hmbGLI6kNbCFA)--

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 21:53 EST 1997
Received: by fry; Wed Feb 19 21:53 EST 1997
Received: from mail3.pilot.net by research; Wed Feb 19 21:50:39 EST 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:48:40 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:47:24 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: No 1-on-1's
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Message-id: <01IFM5RAKEF28WWAKR@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160
Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE;
 BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID eLuEmeg69whWa7JtNQtzsQ)"
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
Status: ORSr


--Boundary (ID eLuEmeg69whWa7JtNQtzsQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I hope everybody received my forwardings of correspondences.  The purpose
of the group is an open and public discussion, which I feel is necessary if
the truth is to be discovered.  I have reconfigured my mailer to CC: the
VSG whenever I respond to a message.  Sorry for any inconvenience.

I will however accept any private conversation relating to the works of Dr.
John Dee, as this has been and will remain my primary cryptologic study.


Thanks,  Rayman

--Boundary (ID eLuEmeg69whWa7JtNQtzsQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial">I hope everybody received my =
forwardings of correspondences. &nbsp;The purpose of the group is an =
open and public discussion, which I feel is necessary if the truth is to =
be discovered. &nbsp;I have reconfigured my mailer to CC: the VSG =
whenever I respond to a message. &nbsp;Sorry for any =
inconvenience.<br><br>I will however accept any private conversation =
relating to the works of Dr. John Dee, as this has been and will remain =
my primary cryptologic study.<br><br><br>Thanks, =
&nbsp;Rayman<br><br></p>
</font></body></html>

--Boundary (ID eLuEmeg69whWa7JtNQtzsQ)--

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 09:54 EST 1997
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:48:24 -0800
From: lvelez@telcel.net.ve (Velez)
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Dear All,

I'm only a recent member, but the experience so far has been very
rewarding and I must confess that everyday I look forward to reading the
new postings on the VMS.

I finally made up my mind to write a small paper on the history of the
list, summarizing (where possible) its members' endeavours, and
individual/group achievements to this date. I think perhaps this could
help to keep track of specific goals and well, we could all use a little
statistics. 

Therefore, any messages providing information thought to be useful 
for this purpose, like references to similar efforts in the past, or
even plain comments, would be greatly appreciated. The idea is to put it
later
in a special copyright-free web site.

Many thanks in advance to all for your kind cooperation with this small
project. Suggestions are all very welcome!
 
Luis Velez
lvelez@telcel.net.ve

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 05:59 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:55:44 +0200
Subject: Another amazing feat by Dee
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Dear all,

Gabriel pointed me to a web site with some illustrations
relating to Dee:

http://redwood.pacweb.com/stevex/johndee/charlotte/Illustrations.html

One is his famous letter to the queen. In this, I noticed that,
400 years prior to the emergence of the Internet, Dee invented:

 The Smiley

Look closely on line 17, after 'incomparable'. It can't
be overlooked.

Dee must have been on very good terms with the queen :-)

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 07:29 EST 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:24:17 +0200
Subject: Etruscan Origins
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To Dennis and all...

Dennis writes:

> The Voynich Manuscript is actually in ... Etruscan!

I like it! :-)

> This colony they did in fact establish in a remote valley
> in the Alps, in what is now southwestern Switzerland, near
> the Italian border.

You'll be amazed: this can actually be located a bit more
closely. Study of the little castle on f86r6 allowed me to
pinpoint the provenance of the VMs with 80% confidence in
the Aosta valley, just on the Italian side of the border
(current geography of course). The remaining 20% are
subdivided over Trentino/Lombardy/Piemont, again in Italy but
close to the Swiss border.

> The name of the colony is as yet unknown to
> us, but we may call it Etruria Nova.

Latinized from the (now lost) Etruscan name for convenience.
We'd have to look for E.Nova somewhat off the main Aosta valley,
higher up in the mountains or just across the mountains.
Remains of previously unknown villages are occasionally found,
as I have seen on a TV documentary once.

> Folio f55r shows the silphium plant.

Here I have to be extremely skeptical. :-) How can you be sure it
is this one and not any other?
Note also that one earlier researcher (Strong?) correctly guessed
that the VMs deals with contraceptive, but his translation was
rejected.

> The names of these geniuses are as yet unknown to us, but we
> may call the first one, a man, A, and the second one, his wife, B.

You may want to consider the opposite, where the feminine hand
is the more careful one and the man's hand more cursive.

> De Kereshtur presented the odd manuscript to Elizabeth Bathory's
> alchemists.  But Bathory's great alchemist Silvestri was gone, having
> been murdered in 1585, and his pupils were not his equal.  They could
> not make sense of the *Testament*.

The pictures of the women bathing in liquid that was extracted from
other women, misunderstood by Bathory and her staff, may have
set her off in her horrible practices. Rather unfortunate but
very strong evidence that your theory must be correct.

> Thus 2600 years of Etruscan history came to a tragic close

Not quite. You may remember Jaques Guy's announcement that I
had stumbled on a very mysterious language spoken in only
two villages in the South of Italy. This language is apparently
of the Francoprovencal group (the same as spoken in the Aosta
valley). The language is called 'Faetar'. It has *never* been
written down!! It is clear we see here a group of Etruscans
that managed to escape the Swiss and fled to S.Italy. It all
fits together. Obviously, the current inhabitants are only
far descendants of the old Etruscans, and their language seems
to have been affected a lot by their stay in Aosta.
One more piece of evidence: the first word of the VMs obviously
says 'Faetar'. It is not so clear in the transcriptions, but
very clear on the Yale copy or Petersen. The capital F, the
A to be pronounced as 'ae', the Beneventan T, the 9 which
is the normal 'a' and the rounded 'R'.
(Oops, maybe I should strike that. There's a bit of backwards
logic here, unless the Etruscans named their city in  South
Italy after some important Etruscan word, the first word of
their Testament).

I think we have a solid background for Jacques Guy's proposed
solution.

Cheers, Rene :-) :-)



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 08:59 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:52:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Info on Stojko's Book
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    Library of Congress entry: 

    Stojko, John.  Letters to God's eye : the Voynich manuscript for 
the first time deciphered and translated into English /  1st ed.  New 
York : Vantage Press, c1978.  90 p. : ill. ; 21 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: 
Z105.5.V65 S76 1978 

    Entry in Jim Reeds' VMs bibliography:

    73.  Stojko, John. Letters to God's Eye: The Voynich Manuscript 
for the first time deciphered and translated into English New York: 
Vantage Press, 1978. [Non Cathari sed Khazari.] 

    "Non Cathari sed Khazari" is Latin for "not Cathars, but Khazars," 
a tongue-in-cheek reference to Levitov's book.  

From: reeds@gauss.att.com 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 22:18:11 EDT 
To: voynich@rand.org 
Subject: Voynich MS: the Khazar Connection, cont. 

I just got a letter from Mary D'Imperio, with a Xerox of much of
Stojko's "Letters to God's Eye" enclosed.  I understand that she 
is sending a copy to Jim Gillogly, too.  A brief glance shows that
the author subscribes to a sort of "punctuated equilibrium" theory 
of linguistic evolution, veering now and then towards a form of 
linguistic "catastrophism." I have not yet read the religious
parts yet.  In brief, the VMS is a series of letters from one Khazar
potentate addressed to another, his rival, Miss Mania Koza.  
(That's pronounced "Manya", rhymes with "Vanya".)  Some zingers from
page 43L (f42v?): "What are you writing?   You will drown.  Perhaps 
you are living there where Koza is fighting?  You should write.  
You have but very little love.", and "Young Mania, you are darkening 
in dark Ora. Do you have that Eye of God?  Where did you renovate that?
Are you now God's lover?  Where is your naked mind?"  (Sounds to me 
a bit like Leonard Cohen's "Suzanne".)



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 10:06 EST 1997
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A bit of a disclaimer:

I am not a linguist and my terminology may be wrong and my
'facts' inaccurate. So:

> Fascinating!  I visited the Aosta Valley in 1988.  I didn't know
> that the Aostans spoke a distinct dialect (but I don't know
> Italian anyway!).

There are dialects in N.Italy that are as different from Italian
as German is. Valdostano is a dialect, I think. Faetar a
language (I think). They are not necessarily related
(but hey, only Faetar is based on Etruscan :-)) although
the sieve in my head tells me they're both Franco-provencal.

> Could you point us to any reference works on Faetar?

There seem to be only 2 people in the world who know about it.
No need to contact them, they already have been approached.
Jacques is probably still pursuing it, because of a professional interest.

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 09:35 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:29:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Etruscan Origins
In-Reply-To: <C1256444.003FB39B.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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	Thank you for your excellent supporting research!  ;-)

On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> Not quite. You may remember Jaques Guy's announcement that I
> had stumbled on a very mysterious language spoken in only
> two villages in the South of Italy. This language is apparently
> of the Francoprovencal group (the same as spoken in the Aosta
> valley). The language is called 'Faetar'. It has *never* been
> written down!! It is clear we see here a group of Etruscans
> fits together. Obviously, the current inhabitants are only
> far descendants of the old Etruscans, and their language seems
> to have been affected a lot by their stay in Aosta.

	Fascinating!  I visited the Aosta Valley in 1988.  I didn't know
that the Aostans spoke a distinct dialect (but I don't know Italian
anyway!).  I did notice that a lot of the people spoke French, which I do
speak. 
	Could you point us to any reference works on Faetar?  You rightly
note that it's obviously been affected a lot by the Etruscan's long stay
in Aosta, and undoubtedly by the subsequent 395 years in southern Italy,
but I'm sure it would still be of some use.   
 
> I think we have a solid background for Jacques Guy's proposed
> solution.

	That was my thought, too.  As I said, a lot of the work has
already been done by Bilbija and similar works.  There's also an early
Christian work called "The Testament of the Twelve Patriachs".  It's
obviously a patriarchal culture's distorted version of the Etruscan
*Testament*.  It might prove to be a certain amount of help. 

	All that remains to be done now is to do some reading to review
the existing work on Etruscan archaeology and classical accounts of the
Etruscans.  Of course, that all would pertain to the Etruscan culture
before the founding of Etruria Nova.  The culture must have changed
somewhat during the intervening centuries.  A and B especially introduced
innovations from mainstream European culture, as I noted.  Interviews of
the genocide survivors in southern Italy might turn up some useful
information, too.  

	With that information in hand, I think we'd have the makings of an
excellent book. Who knows, it (and a possible research grant by
Ciba-Geigy) might even turn out to be highly profitable.  We 3SG members
give ourselves too little credit!

Cheers,    ;-) 
Dennis



From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 15:35 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:16:54 -0800
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I found this in my inbox this morning:

Subject: 
        Voynich MS
  Date: 
        Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:52:39 -0500
  From: 
        jsokolich <sokolich@carroll.com>
    To: 
        j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au


    A Mr. John Stokjo who now lives in New Jersey, USA, wrote a book in
1978, published by Vantage Press, entitled "Letters to God's eye"
wherein he
translated the manuscript. The title I am told by Mr Stojko is a literal
translation of the title of the MS itself. Only 1500 copies of the book
were
printed and is rather scarce. I am in the process of borrowing a copy
from
Mr. Stojko. The book is listed in the Library Of Congress catalog.
    His work is rather well known in Russia and the Ukrain  and in fact
a
member of the Russian Academy of science and a member of the Russian
television network came to the US and interviewed Mr. Stojko and
obtained
his permission to air the contents of his book in a progrm which
appeared on
Russian television. Mr Stojko contends the MS is written in a Slavic
language which is also true of the Etruscian language which he rather
recently translated.
    I hope I am of some help. Mr. Stojko's Email is
"oko@worldnet.att.net".
I do know that he has been exceedingly busy trying to keep up with
correspondence on his work on the Etruscian language and has put the
Voynich
MS behind him as something that has been done. 

                                       Thank you
                                       Jim Sokolich

 
                             

                       Jim Sokolich
                   sokolich@carroll.com

From monty.rand.org!jim Wed Feb 19 16:53 EST 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: VMS: Stojko's decipherment
References: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970219150514.11157A-100000@echo.sound.net>
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I had missed Jim Reeds' e-mail on that decipherment. Sokolich's
description of Stojko's claims had struck me as bearing all the
hallmarks of crankery, and you know how I collect crankery.

Pity Prof. Stojko did not spot the two hands in the VMS. Hand A
is clearly this Khazar potentate, and hand B that other potentate
Manya Koza. Don't you think that hand B has some *feminine* touch
to it? (Or perhaps it is the other way around)

I don't know what happened to Voynich Ukrainian circa 1400, but
it sure must have been drastic, on par with Levitovian Dutch.

The VMS seems to have attracted an unusual amount of crankery
lately, and I am toying with the idea of publishing a decipherment.
Anyone would like to join in the fun? We would publish it under
a pseudonym of course. What do you think of "Kibabour"?

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 00:53 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:53:37 -0800
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: VMS: John Dee (Re: No 1-on-1's)
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rmalek wrote:
 
> I hope everybody received my forwardings of correspondences.

I received only one, entitled "New Group Member, Old Voynich Student"

  
> I will however accept any private conversation relating to the works
> of Dr. John Dee, as this has been and will remain my primary
> cryptologic study.

What a coincidence. Looking for I forgot what (nothing to do
with the Voynich manuscript), I came across the John Dee Society
at this address:

http://redwood.pacweb.com/stevex/johndee/

It is strange that I should never have come across this site
before, as it has at least one reference to the Voynich
manuscript, which they link to the '"Liber Mysteriorum Sextus 
et Sanctus," a.k.a. "Liber Loagaeth" ("The Book of Speech 
>From God") as received by John Dee and Edward Kelly'. There is
even a second reference, according to which it is Dee who
sold the VMS to Rudolph II.I just did an AltaVista
search on "Voynich Manuscript". It returned 93 answers. I went
through the lot, and none pointed to the John Dee Society. 
Strange. One of the two pages where "Voynich Manuscript"
occurs is dated  1st September 1996. How come the AltaVista Web
crawler missed it?

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 18:14 EST 1997
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Message-ID: <330CD8E6.4EDB@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:06:14 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: wierdo letters?
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Rene;

Where do these wierdo c-shape letters appear in the text?

>I then tried this: I figured that 9 goes better with E,
and there is a so-called 'weirdo' which is the c-shape
equivalent of D, which should go with D. It is strange
that Currier missed it as it is not less frequent than
his 7.

I also spent some time today reading some of the old archive stuff and 
noticed you mentioned that you had scanned some pictures of the pisces 
page... Would you still have some gif/jpg type pictures - the only 
source I have for voynich is what is on-line, and although it is 
abundant in text - the picture department is certainly difficult to 
find.  Has anyone ever transcribed the rest of the star pages? The text 
for these pages seem to be missing from most on-line text files.

	Just out of curiousity, if one took the perspective from the sun 
viewing Earth, which constellation would we be passing through in 
January? It's not simply a 180 (six month reversal of the zodiac) 
because of the elliptical orbit, right?

	Regarding my tonal transliteration of the text and those nasty 
A's, I'm working over a diphthong at present. If you can get back to me 
about those wierdo's I may have to reconsider my o = fo pattern.

	Tks again.
			John.

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 18:24 EST 1997
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Subject: Re: wierdo letters?
To: handley@fox.nstn.ca (John & Sue Grove)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:19:03 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
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> 	Just out of curiousity, if one took the perspective from the sun 
> viewing Earth, which constellation would we be passing through in 
> January? It's not simply a 180 (six month reversal of the zodiac) 
> because of the elliptical orbit, right?

You're thinking of the variable speed which it takes to traverse the
constellations.

The background stars when viewing the Earth from the Sun are, of course,
the same as the stars passing through the meridian at midnight when
standing on the Earth.

When in January? Oh well...

	January 1: Middle of Gemini		(7h 0m R.A.)
	January 15: Moving from Gemini to Cancer(8h 0m R.A.)
	January 31: Cancer (edging towards Leo) (~9h 0m R.A.)

This is for 1997 and are the actual positions (as opposed to the ones
calculated by astrologers). These would be different for other centuries
due to precession and the obliquity of the Ecliptic.
-Adams Douglas

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 18:35 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:23:56 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: John Dee (Re: No 1-on-1's)
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--Boundary (ID XMNcJOMOkepau+BzUgmrug)
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> What a coincidence. Looking for I forgot what (nothing to do
> with the Voynich manuscript), I came across the John Dee Society
> at this address:
> 
> http://redwood.pacweb.com/stevex/johndee/
> 
> It is strange that I should never have come across this site
> before, as it has at least one reference to the Voynich
> manuscript, which they link to the '"Liber Mysteriorum Sextus 
> et Sanctus," a.k.a. "Liber Loagaeth" ("The Book of Speech 
> From God") as received by John Dee and Edward Kelly'. There is
> even a second reference, according to which it is Dee who
> sold the VMS to Rudolph II.I just did an AltaVista
> search on "Voynich Manuscript". It returned 93 answers. I went
> through the lot, and none pointed to the John Dee Society. 
> Strange. One of the two pages where "Voynich Manuscript"
> occurs is dated  1st September 1996. How come the AltaVista Web
> crawler missed it?

Thank you very much for the reference.  I was told the site would be up,
but my search very recently did not provide any information on it, nor have
I heard from the founders.  Excellent!  It is funny how some things just
have a way of timing themselves perfectly.

--Boundary (ID XMNcJOMOkepau+BzUgmrug)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial"><br><font color=3D"#000000">&gt; What a =
coincidence. Looking for I forgot what (nothing to do<br>&gt; with the =
Voynich manuscript), I came across the John Dee Society<br>&gt; at this =
address:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://redwood.pacweb.com/stevex/johndee/</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; <br>&gt; It is strange that I should never =
have come across this site<br>&gt; before, as it has at least one =
reference to the Voynich<br>&gt; manuscript, which they link to the =
'&quot;Liber Mysteriorum Sextus <br>&gt; et Sanctus,&quot; a.k.a. =
&quot;Liber Loagaeth&quot; (&quot;The Book of Speech <br>&gt; From =
God&quot;) as received by John Dee and Edward Kelly'. There is<br>&gt; =
even a second reference, according to which it is Dee who<br>&gt; sold =
the VMS to Rudolph II.I just did an AltaVista<br>&gt; search on =
&quot;Voynich Manuscript&quot;. It returned 93 answers. I went<br>&gt; =
through the lot, and none pointed to the John Dee Society. <br>&gt; =
Strange. One of the two pages where &quot;Voynich =
Manuscript&quot;<br>&gt; occurs is dated &nbsp;1st September 1996. How =
come the AltaVista Web<br>&gt; crawler missed it?<br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><br>Thank you very much for the reference. &nbsp;I was =
told the site would be up, but my search very recently did not provide =
any information on it, nor have I heard from the founders. =
&nbsp;Excellent! &nbsp;It is funny how some things just have a way of =
timing themselves perfectly.</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>

--Boundary (ID XMNcJOMOkepau+BzUgmrug)--

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 19:38 EST 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199702210038.QAA17426@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
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Status: OR

I probably expressed myself imprecisely.  When I asked "anything that
correlates Strong's ciphertext to his published plaintext", what I
meant was "how does one get from plaintext to ciphertext and vice
versa?"  So far my tunc-bag is empty on this point, and Strong's
letter to me didn't mend the rip.

Rayman Malakei says:
> attempts.  What is also of concern is that these texts have been readily
> available to the serious researcher, and because of comments like those
> made by Kahn and D'Imperio no one but myself has ever pursued them as a
> subject of research.  Perhaps we too readily accept the opinions of
> "experts" in our age.

If Strong had published his methods, perhaps someone would have pursued
them.
 
> Strong and his methods have been judged and rejected by all the leading
> experts, and for some this is a case closed and best forgotten.  That case
> was tried in the 1940's.  I have made my appearance to argue in his favor
> and demand that the spirit of true research be rekindled.  I demand a
> re-trial.  I will accept nothing less.

While Strong's <results> were evidently rejected by Friedman, his methods
certainly were not, because his methods were not described.  As I wrote to
Strong (probably presumptuously), I was taught that the essence of science
is reproducibility.  If he doesn't expose his methods, he can't complain
about lack of support from the community.  In the crypto biz, "Trust me"
doesn't take you very far.

Please don't regard this as an attack on your work or on Strong's (or
on you personally!).  I simply point out that the verdict is "unproven"
until the evidence can be seen and weighed.  I look forward to seeing
the scanned worksheets, and applaud you for finding them!

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 23:02 EST 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:58:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Dennis Stallings <denstall@echo.sound.net>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Etruscan Origins
In-Reply-To: <C1256444.003FB39B.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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	I've been able to do some more research!

On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> > This colony they did in fact establish in a remote valley
> > in the Alps, in what is now southwestern Switzerland, near
> > the Italian border.
> 
> You'll be amazed: this can actually be located a bit more
> closely. Study of the little castle on f86r6 allowed me to
> pinpoint the provenance of the VMs with 80% confidence in
> the Aosta valley, just on the Italian side of the border
> (current geography of course). The remaining 20% are
> subdivided over Trentino/Lombardy/Piemont, again in Italy but
> close to the Swiss border.

    Incredible!  My sources are not completely clear on this point, but
they say that Swiss Guards at the Vatican must come from Canton Valais in
Switzerland!  So, Aosta would be on the way home for them, through the St.
Bernard Passes, at one end of the canton!  Domodossola could also be on
the way home for them, through the Simplon Pass, if they lived at the
other end of Canton Valais. 

    So, either Aosta or Piedmont would fit that, but not Lombardy and 
certainly not Trentino.  
 
> > The name of the colony is as yet unknown to
> > us, but we may call it Etruria Nova.
> 
> Latinized from the (now lost) Etruscan name for convenience.

	Yes, we shall have to call them the Etrurianovians until we
recover the colony's lost Etruscan name.  

> We'd have to look for E.Nova somewhat off the main Aosta valley,
> higher up in the mountains or just across the mountains.
> Remains of previously unknown villages are occasionally found,
> as I have seen on a TV documentary once.

    Hmmm...  my research shows the following:
    
    "In the seventh century B.C., Greek colonists from Thera founded the
coastal city of Cyrene [present-day Shahat in Libya] in what is now Libya. 
According to the Greek botanist Theophrastus (ca. 370-288 B.C.), they soon
discovered a plant that made some of them wealthy and all of them famous. 
They called it *silphion*; its name was later latinized to *silphium*. 
The pungent sap from its stems and roots was good in cough syrups and gave
food a rich, distinctive taste.  Of far greater significance, however, was
its use as a contraceptive." 
    
    "Silphium was a member of the genus *Ferula*, commonly known as giant
fennel, a large group of plants with deeply divided leaves and yellow
flowers.  These plants were knwon in antiquity to have contrracetive and
abortifacient properties ... Fortunately for the Cyrenians, attempts to
cultivate it in Syria and Greece failed, leaving them the sole exporters
of the plant, which soon became the city's distinctive symbol ..." 
    
    "Within a few centuries, the supply of silphium could not keep up with
demand.  The plant grew only in a band about 125 miles long and 35 miles
wide on the dry mountainsides facing the Mediterranean Sea.  By the first
century A.D., it was scarce from overharvesting ... By the third or fourth
century A.D. silphium was extinct." 
    
    John M. Riddle, J. Worth Estes, and Josiah C. Russell, "Ever Since Eve
... Birth Control in the Ancient World," *Archaeology*, March/April 1994,
p. 30. 
    
    So... this would be consistent with a location on mountainsides in
either of the valleys.  However, I don't remember Aosta as being
particularly dry when I was there in 1988.  The Etrurianovians may have
bred a strain of silphium that would thrive in the Valdosta climate.

	My goodness - perhaps the secret is that their skill in botany was
much greater than ever suspected!  That may be why no one can identify the
plants shown in the *Testament* with any certainty - because they bred
completely new variant strains of many different plants!!  They may have
cultivated dozens of now-unknown strains of plants!  If true, that would
be truly earth-shaking!

	Who knows - our discoveries may make Newbold's speculations look
tame!  If this is true, we certainly won't have any trouble obtaining
funding (but how to convince potential benefactors of this?). 
 
> > Folio f55r shows the silphium plant.
> 
> Here I have to be extremely skeptical. :-) How can you be sure it
> is this one and not any other?

    A good point.  I was looking at Petersen, where the image is not
particularly good.  Also, the only images I have seen of silphium are
pictures of ancient coins; these images are not particularly detailed and
of course not colored.  And, as I just said, the Etrurianovians probably
bred a variant strain of silphium that might not have looked like the
original plant in any case.  So for now the question must remain open. 

> > The names of these geniuses are as yet unknown to us, but we
> > may call the first one, a man, A, and the second one, his wife, B.
> 
> You may want to consider the opposite, where the feminine hand
> is the more careful one and the man's hand more cursive.

    An excellent point!  I think you are correct here.  
 
> The pictures of the women bathing in liquid that was extracted from
> other women, misunderstood by Bathory and her staff, may have
> set her off in her horrible practices. Rather unfortunate but
> very strong evidence that your theory must be correct.

    Sad but true!
 
> > Thus 2600 years of Etruscan history came to a tragic close
> 
> Not quite. You may remember Jaques Guy's announcement that I
> had stumbled on a very mysterious language spoken in only
> two villages in the South of Italy. This language is apparently
> of the Francoprovencal group (the same as spoken in the Aosta
> valley). The language is called 'Faetar'. It has *never* been
> written down!! It is clear we see here a group of Etruscans
> that managed to escape the Swiss and fled to S.Italy. It all
> fits together. Obviously, the current inhabitants are only
> far descendants of the old Etruscans, and their language seems
> to have been affected a lot by their stay in Aosta.

    I wonder what legends the Faetarian genocide survivors have preserved
about the massacre and their flight to southern Italy? And what legends
and prejudices might they have developed about the Swiss, especially since
after the massacre they have not lived adjacent to them?  Or even - what
might be their attitude towards Catholicism, since the Swiss Guards came
from the Vatican? 

    D'Imperio noted some Christian imagery (crosses) in the *Testament*,
so the Etrurianovians may have adopted Christianity at some point.  It is
too early to say. 

	I wonder how much of the Faetar vocabulary is still Etruscan? 
Perhaps the mixture of the (presumably non-Indo-European) Etruscan with a
Romance language might account for Faetar's strange phonological
properties.  It would seem that the Maltese language might be a useful
comparison here, since Maltese is an mixture of some form of Arabic with
Norman French. 

> One more piece of evidence: the first word of the VMs obviously
> says 'Faetar'. It is not so clear in the transcriptions, but
> very clear on the Yale copy or Petersen. The capital F, the
> A to be pronounced as 'ae', the Beneventan T, the 9 which
> is the normal 'a' and the rounded 'R'.
> (Oops, maybe I should strike that. There's a bit of backwards
> logic here, unless the Etruscans named their city in  South
> Italy after some important Etruscan word, the first word of
> their Testament).

	I'll have to reserve judgment on this.  
 
> I think we have a solid background for Jacques Guy's proposed
> solution.

    Indeed!  We shall have to learn some more about Etruscan art and
sculpture and then make comparisons with Voynich images.  Surely there
will be some resemblances!  ;-) 

	So far, all the results are very encouraging!  It does all hang
together.

Cheers,   ;-)  
Dennis


From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Feb 21 04:29 EST 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
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Subject: wierdo letters?
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John Grove asks:

> Where do these wierdo c-shape letters appear in the text?

I have the precise locations at home. The first one is
somewhere in ff.15 or 16. You can only find them on
copies of the Ms, not in transcription files.

> ... you had scanned some pictures of the pisces
> page...

'Fraid not. This was another picture of the 'Pisces'
emblem that just looked a bit like the one in the
VMs. There are pictures available in the litarature.
Pisces e.g. in Brumbaugh. See the file 'checklist'
at Jim  Reeds' web site for a complete list.

> Has anyone ever transcribed the rest of the star pages?

If you download the interlinear file from Gabriel's web site
(http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.html)
you get all available transcriptions at the time. This is a
merger of voynich.now, fsg.new and a few shorter pieces by
other people, notably in the zodiac pages (the 'labels').

I have a complete transcription at home for the entire Ms.
Gabriel and I are still working on that, and it will be
issued in a few(?) months. Let's say: some time this year.

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Feb 21 04:32 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:27:56 +0000
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Status: ORr

Hi all,
I had some requests on how to use the True Type fonts in a MacIntosh.
To be sincere, I haven't got a clue, but I realised that the 
software used to generate the fonts can save also in Type I format.
I was told that TT fonts should be loadable in a Mac straight away...

If there is anybody needing the Type I fonts, please e-mail me 
directly, and I will add these to the package in the EVMT page.
I will announce to the list when the Type I fonts are available (if 
there are any requests, of course).

Regards,

Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Fri Feb 21 12:14 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:01:31 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: John Grove's transliteration
Status: OR

I'm really impressed with what John Grove has done. If I understand him
aright, he has assigned values of consonant, vowel, or tone marker to each
Voynich symbol, in a transliteration that consistently produces open
(consonant-vowel) syllables. The selection of particular consonants and
vowels (if I understand him correctly) is entirely arbitrary, so that "fo3"
could as well be "na3", but we do have a pronounceable transliteration. This
is the most convincing thing I've seen done with Voynichese yet. (John's
later transliteration, with diacriticals instead of numbers, gets hashed by
my Macintosh.) So: 

i4nage2mo goi2nafa nama nainaga3 fu2fa fu2mago yifomagomo go i2foma
fu2fakogo-
mofomago yi2nama fo ma go i2naga2 uinaga3 nu2ma nama* yinama yinama konaga-
mogonama3 u3i2go foma goi2naga3 fu2ko yifonamago yi*ma konamanaga3 mogo-
[fokomo*]foga3 foigo3 foifo2ma mofofafoigo yi*nama konaga3 foi2naga3 fofa
foi2naga
monama2 go ne3ma yinaga3 yi3nama yi4naga

This looks like a language. It seems to me that if enough linguists get a
look at this, that somebody may be able to identify a related language. I
wonder if it would be worthwhile to produce multiple forms of a short text,
with various permutations of the consonants and perhaps the vowels, in hope
of producing something recognizable to a speaker of a language related to
Voynichese. It seems to me that Southeast Asia is the most likely place to
look, though certainly not the only one.
*******************************
Let's look at the orthographies of a couple of tonal languages of Southeast
Asia, each with a lot more consonants than Voynichese has.
******************************
Here's a sample of Vietnamese, not quite in its original orthography, but in
a modification, apparently standardized, for low ASCII computer transmission.
Vietnamese has a Romanization in use since the early 17th century, and in
exclusive use in this century. Syllables are written separately, like
Chinese, in a consonant- semivowel- vowel- semivowel- consonant sequence,
where all of the elements can be absent except the vowel. The vowels are
cluttered up with complex diacriticals, some of which represent separate
vowels (about ten altogether, about five of them modifying the basic aeiou),
while others represent five or six tones or tone-like phenomena. (There can
be two diacriticals on a vowel.) In this low-ASCII transliteration, the
modifiers mostly follow the syllable's vowel. - I took this sample from a
Vietnamese Web site, and I have no idea what it means, though you can see a
few familiar words in it.

Tru+o+'c khi dde^` nghi. mo^.t so^' nguye^n ta('c xa^y du+.ng kho tu+.
vu+.ng chuye^n mo^n, chu'ng ta thu+? ne^u le^n va`i va^'n dde^` qua ca'c
thi' du. sau dda^y.
Thi' du. dda^`u tie^n: Sau na`y, ta.i Vie^.t Nam, ta co' the^? ga(.p
tru+o+`ng ho+.p mo^.t so^' chuye^n gia Vie^.t Nam la`m vie^.c vo+'i nhau
trong ke^' hoa.ch thie^'t la^.p mo^.t chu+o+ng tri`nh ddie^.n toa'n cho...
mo^.t phi ca?ng cha(?ng ha.n. Chuye^n gia ta.i Hoa Ky` ve^` co' the^? se~
no'i ve^` software, trong khi ngu+o+`i ta.i Pha'p ve^` se~ ca~i la`
logiciel, mo^.t o^ng tu+`ng ddi Lie^n Xo^ ve^` trong tha^.p nie^n 80 thi`
ddo`i chu+~ programnye sredjsta, trong khi mo^.t chuye^n vie^n ddu+o+.c
dda`o ta.o va` la`m vie^.c du+o+'i che^' ddo^. Vie^.t Co^.ng se~ quen vo+'i
********************************
Here's another language of Southeast Asia, Hmong, which had no writing system
until missionary linguists developed one about 40 years ago. Here orthography
is consonant- consonant- vowel- tonemarker, any of which can be zero except
the vowel. Double vowels represent nasalization. "Hmoob" is the spelling of
the name "Hmong" in this orthography, with the "b" representing the tone.
There are no diacriticals at all. Obviously Hmong has a much larger number of
consonants than does Voynichese, and it has diphthongs, and about eight
tones.

Kib ye! me nkauj Hmoob cas zeej leej kav zeej tswb tsav tsheej nkauj huab
tais yuav kav laj pem ceeb rov los poob ntsib li dheev nkawm me noog paj
tsawb noog tsum xib ya tsaws li ntua ntiaj teb ces kaum liaj es yuav fi xov
tib nruj nraws rau ib tsoom nkauj Hmoob nyob ntiaj teb kom leg cim tsoos maj
tsoos ntuag mus thawm niaj ces tsoom nkauj Hmoob thiaj ntsib tau txoj kev
nyob mus tsim txiaj mog.

This text (whose meaning is uncertain) is taken from William A. Smalley, Chia
Koua Vang, and Gnia Yee Yang, Mother of Writing: the Origin and Development
of a Hmong Messianic Script (U of Chicago, 1990, page 78.) This is a
marvelous book, which everybody on this list would immensely enjoy reading.
The authors repeatedly makes the point that in Southeast and South Asia,
speakers feel that every language should have its own unique alphabet. The
book is about Shong Lue Yang, a sort of Hmong Sequoyah, who, illiterate in
any language and speaking no European language, invented a writing system for
Hmong, the Pahawh Hmong (Phajhauj Hmoob).

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist and Wannabe Linguist
Knoxville TN

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 19:08 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:59:52 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: VMS Etruscan Origins and Faetar
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Naomi Nagy, who is writing a doctoral thesis on Faetar, is
sending me a copy of her phonological description of it.

The summary of her dissertation is at .... where are my
bookmarks? 

 http://babel.ling.upenn.edu/~nagy/diss.proposal.html

Its phonology is so aberrant that I think that it must
be deliberate. Further, in the very list of words she gives,
there is an extraordinary one:

[accetunt]  "they buy"

Why is it extraordinary? That [-unt] is the third person plural
of Latin unchanged! I was sure that *all* Romance languages had
lost at least the final [t], e.g. Italian dicono [dikono], Spanish
dicen [diTen], French [diz] <- dicunt. But, on the other hand,
Faetar merrily drops final consonants all over the place, e.g.
[napp] or [nap] or even [na] for Napoli, [pa] "not" from Latin
passum (whence also French pas), etc. 

Then, this excerpt:

>One case to examine will be the
>allophonic variation of certain consonants. /sh/ has the following allophones:
>[sh,v,w], /t/ has [t,d], /s/ has [s,z,V] , /V/ has [V,w], /n/ has [n,n~], and /k/ has
>[k,g,ch]. Kattenbusch describes complementary environments for some of these >allophonic sets,
>and free variation for others (Kattenbusch 1982:154-164).

That is weird beyond belief. It means that sh as in ship can be
pronounced
v or w. That s as in sip can be pronounced z (as in zip) and V (Spanish
v).
But V is also in Faetar a full-fledged phoneme! Certainly, such
allophonic
overlap does occur in languages. But it is not common, it affects mostly
vowels (e.g. in Danish), and the allophonic variations are rather
narrow.
I have never before come across a language in which [sh] alternated with
[v]!

I am awaiting that phonological statement with much impatience.

From monty.rand.org!jim Thu Feb 20 21:26 EST 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:58:10 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: VMS: zodiac  (Re: wierdo letters?)
References: <C1256444.0046F1EB.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> <330CD8E6.4EDB@fox.nstn.ca>
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John & Sue Grove wrote:
 
>         Just out of curiousity, if one took the perspective from the sun
> viewing Earth, which constellation would we be passing through in
> January? It's not simply a 180 (six month reversal of the zodiac)
> because of the elliptical orbit, right?

Wrong. First, the eccentricity of the orbit of the earth is negligible.
Second, even if it were extreme, it would still be a 180 reversal 
(just take pencil and paper and see!). I don't know off hand which
constellation the sun is passing through in January. Wait... thanks
to "Life of Brian" I know that Jesus (and Brian) are Capricorn.
So, most of January the sun is in the zodiacal sign of Capricorn.
Taking the precession of the equinoxes into account, that makes
it in the constellation of Sagittarius, right at the start, or
towards the end of the preceding constellation (what comes before
Sagittarius?).The earth, seen from the sun, is therefore in Gemini
(near the start), or in Taurus (I think) near the end. Well, it 
would be, if those constellations were all 30 degrees wide. 
But they aren't, and as I don't have a celestial anywhere nearby...
The answer to the question, anyway, is even fuzzier. Because
of the precession of the equinoxes, the position of the earth
on any given day of the year, relative to the constellations,
varies ever so slightly, at the rate of 360/260 degrees 
(i.e. a tad under one and a half degree) per century. Like Paul
Getty used to say: a degree here, a degree there, and soon you're
talking about real discrepancies!

From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb 22 14:23 EST 1997
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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:21:37 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Well, that fact that I created a transliteration scheme in an 
effort to make the manuscript readable to a romanized reader like myself 
has sparked some enthusiasm is great. I really must thank Bob for that 
great endorsement! On the other hand, I really must mention that this is 
only the fifth version I've tried and I know it is far from 100% 
consistent. (You don't want to see the earlier versions, believe me!) 
The N scheme doesn't work, period! It was a shortcut, until I change it 
over to a diphthong. I'm not entirely happy with my gallow's letters yet 
either, and I'm beginning to doubt that the Currier Z was one letter 
throughout - Look closely at all the actual Z occurances and I think 
you'll see what I mean - the 'accent' on the Z moves about and 
sometimes even crosses through the center. If this is the case, then I 
have yet another consonant to fit into the scheme - and I don't think it 
allows for the four variations of vowel!

	All that aside, I really think that if the Voynich was a natural 
language, then we should be able to romanize the text - much like 
pinyin has done for Chinese, and make it readable by non-Voynich 
speakers. And I agree that exposure to a readable script will make it 
more likely that someone with the appropriate language background will 
observe familiar patterns that will lead to success.

					Thanks, John.

From monty.rand.org!jim Sun Feb 23 10:44 EST 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Thoughts and Questions
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    From Denis V Mardle           23 rd Feb 1997

  Thoughts  :-

1)     re 'It's only the beginning'    I like the idea of a vowel and con=
sonant transliteration 
providing that we identify vowels, consonants and more importantly syllab=
les in the text 
correctly.     There is a snag, however.  An O at one place in a word may=
 not mean the same 
in another part of a word, etc.   I am a believer  ( with medium high pro=
bability ) of Tiltman's 
"roots" and "suffixes" ideas - perhaps "middles" also.   There is another=
 complication.   
Suppose that we have a keyed polyalphabetic substitution in which vowels =
go to vowels, 
subsets of consonants to subsets of consonants and similarly for syllable=
s. Also suppose there 
are only a few keys and these are used in non-random order for each word.=
  For example on 
the vowels :-

                   Key -     1  2  3  4  5
      Vowel     a         e  a  e   i   e
                    e          i  o   a  a  a  
                     i          a  i   o  o   i                       Cip=
her Table       
                    o          u  e  u  u  o         
                    u          o  u   i   e  u

Encipherment is unique and so is Decipherment if one knows the key values=
.  If one can 
work out the tables then one has a good chance of a solution for parts =
of the text when one 
does not know the keys especially if the keys are highly non-random.   =
 If the cipher table 
were a Latin square then the text we see would not be so near to plain =
text frequencies.

2)    I am very interesed in rmalek's discovery of Dr L Strong's papers. =
I intend to keep an 
open mind until I have seen his methods written by him.    One can only =
say yea or nay when 
one gets sense on folios he did not analyse.  I will always be convinced =
by Ventris and 
Chadwick's confirmation of Linear B as Greek when a new tatlet turned up =
having a three 
legged stool plus the syllable decipherment  ti - ri - po - de

3)   Blunt and Raphael state that Banckes's Herbal from 1525 is not illus=
trated.   They don.t 
even mention Anthony Askham !

4)  Once I can unzip  the interlinear file and the view program I intend =
to look for labels from 
all relevant pages against all pages.  I don't mind if someone else does =
this first provided they 
publish the answers.

5)   The third star  on f106r has a small companion joined to it.  A doub=
le star? The best bet 
would be the well known one in the Plough.   Also note that the centres =
of the stars are 
alternately dark and light on f106r.   I would like to see all the centre=
 colours and any oddities 
noted for all these stars that we have f103r to f116r plus those on the =
Zodiac pages.  

6)  The Zodiac months have been split 15:15 for Aries and Taurus ( dark,l=
ight,light,dark when 
put in order.)   Also the stars must surely relate to longitude degrees, =
the missing  folio is most 
unlikely to make up to 365 days.   Even Pisces which has 29 stars with =
the figures has a 
thirtieth star in the centre with  the fish ( ? pike ? ) not seen in the =
other months

7)   I did like / to denote word space.     I would also like to see // =
when drawings  interrupt 
since one is not completely sure that text always runs across. Certainly =
on some folios it 
seems to slip a line or two.   f67v2 needs to be kept  in position since =
points of the compass 
appear to be important

.
Questions :-

1)  HELP needed  -  I can' find third party program PKZIP or WINZIP on =
the internet.  I have 
a PC running Windows 95.

2)  Do the strong contrasts between dark and light brown in the texts of =
f33v and f34r in Blunt 
and Raphael's splendid colour plate occur elsewhere ?    One almost suspe=
cts dummies but 
variations of writing style may be the cause.  Certainly the ( Currier =
) Z addition to the S looks 
much fainter so reinforcing   John and Sue's observation

3)  I seem to remember from 1969 that Father Petersen did not transcibe =
Flower drawings but 
he did note the colours of their various parts.   Possibly of the ink als=
o.   Is this list of colours 
on file ?   Has anyone else had access to the Ms and noted the colours =
?

4)   R.S.Brumbaugh claimed to have identified the 'star' names, I presume=
 from the Zodiac 
pages.  Is this list available, preferably with the VMs labels ?


From monty.rand.org!jim Sat Feb 22 21:05 EST 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 12:59:56 -0800
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John & Sue Grove wrote:
 
>         All that aside, I really think that if the Voynich was a natural
> language, then we should be able to romanize the text - much like
> pinyin has done for Chinese, and make it readable by non-Voynich
> speakers. And I agree that exposure to a readable script will make it
> more likely that someone with the appropriate language background will
> observe familiar patterns that will lead to success.

Yes and no.

First, yes insofar as it _is_ transcribable in a pronounceable system.
EVA does just that.

Second, no, because, for instance, the VMS writing system could well
be Indian-like, i.e. some vowels are written after the consonant, some
before, some around. For instance, if English were written like 
Sanskrit (and most language using alphabets of Indian origin, such
as Punjabi, Buginese, Javanese, Cambodian, Thai, etc., etc.) we
would write:

   est  for "set"
   sit  for "sit"
   esat for "sot"

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 04:06 EST 1997
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Subject: Proof that it can't be a fake?
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Jacques brings up a number of interesting features of the
Voynich writing:

> Mangled Arabic on Folio 22r?
> ============================
>
> ...to me, this <c'-lpo> weirdo ....  is not Voynichian, it is something
> else, perhaps Arabic, seen through Voynichian eyes.

The very way in which Voynichese forms ligatures and embellished
characters is very similar to Arabic. The little Michelin man
with its dots, the long gallows ornated with a row of dots,
the possibility to append things to the pedestalled gallows....
I am (almost) sure that if one transcribed Arabic by using
characters to represent the dots below and above the line of writing
(which are part of the normal characters of course), then:
- Sukhotin would call them vowels
- The digraph entropy would go down because of the tendency
  to form fixed pairs.

> The Weirdo on Folio 24v
> =======================

> Likewise the strange thing that ends line 6 of folio 24v,
> which I would write in advanced Frogguy:

>         s
>c-lj a 2 A-2

I would say: a correction. The writer forgot the s and inserted
it later.
In two or three places one can see corrections achieved by overwriting
an existing character. An insertion had to be done in another way,
maybe as above.

Since the absence of visible corrections has sometimes been offered
as an indication that the VMs may be a hoax, isn't the fact, that there
are a few, evidence that it is not a hoax? I'd like to think so....


> <4o> Revisited
> ==============
...

> So, there is nothing we ought to tear our hair about. Voynichian <4o>
> is no stranger than Japanese wa!

Is 'wa' always word-initial? Or is the 'wa' written in such a
way that it would always seem to be preceded by a space?
If neither, the Japanese 'wa' is not stranger than the Latin 'qu'...
and both fall short of the weirdness of '4o'.
And we have to worry about a few cases where the 4 is followed
by something else. If that something is not a or 9, would
it have to be a scribal error? How could a scribe not
notice that these handful of times the 4 is not
followed by o?
Maybe these are archaic forms of the language, for example names.
Wasn't there a proposal to simplify French spelling by getting
rid of the cedilla and a few others, except in family names?

Plenty of hard-to-test ideas, as usual,

Cheers, Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 04:39 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 24 Feb 97 at 9:56, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> > <4o> Revisited
> > ==============
> ...
> 
> > So, there is nothing we ought to tear our hair about. Voynichian <4o>
> > is no stranger than Japanese wa!
> 
> Is 'wa' always word-initial? Or is the 'wa' written in such a
> way that it would always seem to be preceded by a space?

Watashi wa wakarimasen  -- I don't know :-)

domo, domo,
Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 04:59 EST 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 23 Feb 97 at 15:38, Denis Mardle wrote:
> 3)   Blunt and Raphael state that Banckes's Herbal from 1525 is not illustrated.   They don.t 
> even mention Anthony Askham !

I have been enquiring the British Library about Ascham's Herbal.

What I found so far:

1. The Herbal is a printed book, which sits in the British Museum 
(although it is part of the British Library).

2. One needs a Reader's ticket to see books there. (I asked for the 
forms to get one)

3. There is no assurance that one can actually see the book as this 
will depend on the value and state of the book itself.

4. They may sell a microfilm or photocopy IF there is one already 
done.

5. If there is no microfilm of the book, then they can produce one 
but that costs a lot.

I have no other information than this, I already wrote to them asking 
for a quotation as I have no clue whether there are 10, 100 or 1000 
pages or the charges.
I will report back when I get the reply. Is anybody else interested 
in a copy?

regards,
Gabriel

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 05:54 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 10:43:11 GMT
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To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Transliterations
Status: OR

I am all in favour of pronounceable transliterations of the VMS, but I am not
clear what special virtues this particular scheme is supposed to have.  The
main feature is supposed to be that it enforces a strict alternation of cons-
onant vowel consonant vowel:  and it does so by reinterpreting inconvenient
characters of the original as tone markers.  But why bother with tones when the
characters in question might just as well be semivowels or liquids?

John Grove's transliteration does indeed look somewhat like the Wade-Giles
romanisation of modern Chinese, but

1. I am not aware that native speakers of any tone language use a script of
quite the kind envisaged.  The more recent Pinyin romanisation of Chinese uses
accents to mark tone, as does Vietnamese, and, crucially, in these scripts
every syllable is given a tone marker, not just some of them as in the Grove
proposal.  Thai and Burmese are written in Indian scripts:  subject to 
correction, I believe that tone is ignored in writing these languages in their
own scripts.

2. Pinyin and the Vietnamese script are modern adaptations of the Roman alphabet.  I have never heard of an indigenous script devised for a tone language which
systematically marked tones (it is true that Chinese phoneticians had a way
of representing the sounds of their language on these lines: "take the first
sound of character A and the final sound and tone of character B", but whole
texts were never written like that).

3. It is notorious that uneducated Chinese do not know what a tone is, any more
than the average European has heard of a velar plosive.  In most dialects of
Chinese, the tones interact with each other and with the neighbouring consonants
in incredibly complex ways (for instance, it is a matter of dispute how many
tones the Cantonese dialect has).  It is doubtful whether a "Hmong Sequoyah"
would come anywhere near success in representing this aspect of his language.

A couple of good books with information on the subject are S Robert Ramsey,
The Languages of China, and its companion The Languages of South East Asia
(I forget the author).

Philip Neal
Department of Computing
University of Essex

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 08:50 EST 1997
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Dear all,

two rather different appraisals of John Groves'  tone systems were
given today (or over the weekend).  Both seem to have some doubt as to
how exactly the scheme works.

Bob Richmond:
> If I understand him aright, he has assigned values of consonant,
> vowel, or tone marker to each Voynich symbol, in a transliteration
> that consistently produces open (consonant-vowel) syllables.

Correct, but the consonant is given by part of the Voynich symbol,
not by a whole Currier letter. Certain individual Currier letters
form one syllable (like 9, 8 and O). Others work as 'vowel modifiers'
(like S and Z). The consistent cadence of vowel+consonant is
imposed, not deducted from the Voynich text.

> i4nage2mo goi2nafa nama nainaga3 (etc)

> This looks like a language.

I have a feeling that the 2nd order entropy is even lower than
that of the Currier rendition of Voynichese. In that sense it's
a step in the wrong direction.

> Here's a sample of Vietnamese...
>.....Here's another language of Southeast Asia....

both show words ending in consonants, and consonant and vowel pairs.
John Groves' theory would gain from the identification of a 'no vowel'
or 'no consonant' symbol, or anything else that breaks the strict
cadence.

Philip Neal:
> ... strict alternation of consonant vowel consonant vowel:  and it does
so
> by reinterpreting inconvenient characters of the original as tone
markers.
> But why bother with tones when the characters in question might just as
> well be semivowels or liquids?

Not at all... the tone indications are treated very consistently.
Yet I do agree that the interpretation of these strings of i's
and c's as tones clashes with the European origin of the VMs
and requires controversial theories (some like them and some
do not).

What I like most about the transliteration is that it takes
certain groups of Voynichese symbols together and interprets
these groups. Here lies a way to attack the unusual 2nd order
entropy and the skewed digraph frequencies.
The subdivision is not 100% consistent yet, but it might be a step in
the right direction. The strange S and Z are interpreted as
modifiers for the following character(s). This has some merit.
These characters are hardly ever word final and rarely follow
each other or themselves. It is disputable whether exceptions
may be explained as 'errors'....

Cheers, Rene




From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 09:48 EST 1997
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	id AA25429; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:41:46 GMT
From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 14:41:46 GMT
Message-Id: <29107.9702241441@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: John Grove's transliteration
Status: OR

Please don't interpret my previous submission as hostile:  what John Grove is
doing is the kind of work I should like to see more of.  I take it that the
aim is to produce a pronounceable transcription of the VMS which also has less
entropy than the original.  Now there are plenty of ways of rewriting the
Currier letters so that they can be pronounced (I use one myself but I should
not wish to argue strongly for it):  what puzzles me is why it is thought
desirable that there should be strict alternation of vowel and consonant, and
why Grove's numerical symbols should be interpreted as tones.  

I may have missed some of this discussion, as the departmental email was
disrupted a couple of weekends ago:  I have not received a posting of Grove's
actual algorithm, but have tried to reconstruct it from his transliteration
of voynich.now.  So far as I can see, Grove identifies certain Currier letters
with vowels and others with consonants, and suppletes each consonant with a 
helper vowel which sometimes gets modified by the context:  in particular,
S and Z are supposed to be tone markers on the following vowel.  

This procedure does indeed produce pronounceable output, but I think there are
simpler ways of doing so.  It also slightly reduces the monotony with which
individual letters form pairs in the Currier notation, but I suspect only at
the cost of creating monotonously frequent pairs of syllables. 'nama' and
'naga' occur again and again, and no wonder, since they are what we used to
know as 'AR' and 'AM'.

As for the tones, why not read Grove's '2' as 'L', '3' as 'R' and '4' as a
nasal (or some similar scheme)?  After all, the Chinese tones actually 
originated as a replacement for final consonants and distinctions of voicing
which have now died out.  Or is there some reason which I have not grasped
why it is desirable to have consonant-vowel, consonant-vowel all the way?

Philip Neal
Department of Computing
University of Essex



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The Number Three on Folio 27v?
==============================

Folio 27v, third last line:

8c'to lpct222 olp89 8ct2ct9 soqpct89
          ^^^


Peterson has circled those three <2> with a 'sic' in the margin. To him,
who must have far more familiar with the VMS than any of us, it must
have been visually shocking.

If any segments of the texts are numbers, this is probably a best
candidate. I would read it as III in Roman numeral. Several years ago,
shortly after having written my article on the statistical properties of
two folios of the VMS  for Cryptologia, I had gone further into
speculations. Using Sukhotin's algorithm, I had tested several
hypothesis: that <ox> and <ax> were single vowels, that <2> was a vowel,
etc.  I  had come to the conclusion that <x> (EVA l) could be u
(ypsilon) and used as in Greek; and that <2> was i-lunga.


Mangled Arabic on Folio 22r?
============================

The third paragraph starts:

lpctox c'tox 8c'tco2 WEIRDO ct8ox9 9qpaiiv ox

This weirdo starts with <c> with above it a reduced <9>. This <c> is
linked to an <o> (or perhaps an <a>) above the base of the line of
writing. Sitting on the stroke which links <c> to <o> is a sort of <lp>,
with a smooth surve linking the top of <l> to <p>. The loop of the <p>
rises above the top  of the <l> (this does sometimes happens in more
"normal" text). Having the intruding gallows <lp> on the connecting
stroke, instead of going through it, is quite exceptional. You do find
occasional oddities like that (folio 24v, end of line 6, even stranger),
but they are rare, and seem as  out-of-place as a lone mathematical
formula with an square-root or an integral symbol in an otherwise normal
text. Anyway, to me, this <c'-lpo> weirdo (even advanced  Frogguy cannot
account for it) is not Voynichian, it is something else, perhaps Arabic,
seen through Voynichian eyes. The final <o> links  to the signs on its
left like an initial mim (Arabic m) does.  I cannot guess what the <lp>
is (there are many varieties of Arabic calligraphy), but if a gun were
held at my head, I would  say lam-alif. Nor can I guess at what that
<c> with a reduced <9> on top is.


The Weirdo on Folio 24v
=======================

Likewise the strange thing that ends line 6 of folio 24v,  which I would
write in advanced Frogguy:

          s
c-lj a 2 A-2

What is it? Mangled Arabic? It does not look like Arabic. A alchemical
formula? A code? An English (or...) word written in the Voynichian
alphabet?


<4o> Revisited
==============

We have all been tearing our collective hair about  the infamous <4o>
(EVA: qo). I remember having once mentioned on this list that Fijian
(Bau dialect) did something very much alike: y can only be followed by
a. The reason, however, is that no word can start with a. Wherever
etymology would call for an initial a, you find ya in Bau Fijian.

Yes, but, you  will object, <o> is found initially in Voynichian, so
your Fijian analogy does not hold.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned here -- it ought to have
been by someone, perhaps I missed it. In modern Japanese w is always
followed by a. This time the reason is different: w was lost before e,
i, o, u and retained only before a.

So, there is nothing we ought to tear our hair about. Voynichian <4o> is
no stranger than Japanese wa!

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 13:37 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:30:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Transliterations
In-Reply-To: <28992.9702241043@csc2.essex.ac.uk>
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Status: OR



On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Neal P wrote:

> 
> 1. I am not aware that native speakers of any tone language use a script of
> quite the kind envisaged.  The more recent Pinyin romanisation of Chinese uses
> accents to mark tone, as does Vietnamese, and, crucially, in these scripts
> every syllable is given a tone marker, not just some of them as in the Grove
> proposal.  Thai and Burmese are written in Indian scripts:  subject to 
> correction, I believe that tone is ignored in writing these languages in their
> own scripts.

In Pinyin the first (level) tone is unmarked, isn't it?

> 
> 2. Pinyin and the Vietnamese script are modern adaptations of the Roman alphabet.  I have never heard of an indigenous script devised
> for a tone language which systematically marked tones (it is true that
> Chinese phoneticians had a way  of representing the sounds of their
> language on these lines: "take the first sound of character A and the
> final sound and tone of character B", but whole texts were never written
> like that).

There is another modern transcription system for Chinese called chu-yin
fu-hao (Zhuyin Fuhao) that is written in a linguist-devised phonetic
notation adapted from Chinese parts of Chinese characters; it includes
tonal notation.  It is still used to teach elementary school children (and
foreign students) in Taiwan.


> 
> 3. It is notorious that uneducated Chinese do not know what a tone is, any more
> than the average European has heard of a velar plosive.  In most dialects of
> Chinese, the tones interact with each other and with the neighbouring consonants
> in incredibly complex ways (for instance, it is a matter of dispute how many
> tones the Cantonese dialect has).  It is doubtful whether a "Hmong Sequoyah"
> would come anywhere near success in representing this aspect of his language.

I don't remember whether in fact the Hmong Sequoyah did include tonal
notation in his script --

 Smalley, William Allen.
 Mother of writing : the origin and development of a Hmong
 messianic script / William A. Smalley, Chia Koua Vang, Gnia Yee
 Yang ; Mitt Moua, project translator.
 Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1990.
 xii, 221 p. ; 24 cm.
 Includes bibliographical references (p. 209-218) and index.
 Yang-Shong-Lue-d-1971.
 Hmong-language -- Alphabet.
 Hmong-language -- Writing.

Interestingly, at least one romanization system for Mandarin Chinese
indicated tones by using not tonal markers but spelling variations --
eg, first tone "man", second "marn", third "maan", fourth "mahn".
 
Now, I can't, frankly, see much likelihood that the Voynich script really
does transcribe (eg) Chinese or Vietnamese -- but it is certainly possible
that speakers of a language would notate what linguists might describe as
tonal features in terms of spelling rather than tonal diacritics.  I
seem to remember remarks by a Chinese linguist (Chao Yuen Ren, perhaps)
who came up with some nice examples of this occurring in English 
-- that is, words that were spelled differently, but which were
distinguished in pronunciation only by some tonal distinction.

R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)



From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 15:56 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 13:49:52 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: A Little Herball
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> 
> I have been enquiring the British Library about Ascham's Herbal.
> 
>Ascham's Little Herball was also reprinted in 1977 by Walter J. Johnson,
Inc., Norwood, NJ.  The reprint was a library binding, and is currently not
on book seller lists for distribution.  I called the company but the
contact person for this department was out for the day.  Their number is
1-201-767-1303.

I hope to find out whether this book can be made available, but if not,
there are copies of this book in university libraries across the country. 
I have no idea how closely it reflects the original work, but I will
attempt to find out and let you know.
> 
> I have no other information than this, I already wrote to them asking 
> for a quotation as I have no clue whether there are 10, 100 or 1000 
> pages or the charges.
> I will report back when I get the reply. Is anybody else interested 
> in a copy?

I am very much interested in a copy.

The title page from the Herbal reads:

"A litle Herball of the properties of Herbes, newly amended and corrected,
wyth certayn, additions
declaring what herbes hath influence of certain sterres wherby maye be
chosen the best  days of their 
ministracion, according to the moone beyng in the signs of Meave the which
is daily appointed in the
Almanacke made and gathered in the yeare M.D.L. by A. Askham, Physycyon. 
1550."

These influences from the zodiac on medicine as understood by Ascham could
provide another meaning to the light and dark drawings of the zodiac in the
Voynich, especially when we consider the title page of the Almanacke
mentioned above, which reads:

"A prognossicacion and an almanack fastened together acclaiming the
Dispocission of the People and also of the Wether, with certain Electyons
and Tymes chosen both for Phisike and Surgerye, and for the husbandman, and
also for Hawkekyng, Huntying, and for the Foulynge according to the Science
of Astronomy, made for the Yeare of our Lord God.  M.D.L. Calculed for the
Merydyan of Yorke."

This is just a thought, but one worthy of consideration in my estimation. 
Other title pages from Anthony's publications are even more revealing as to
his particular twist on astrology and its influence on herbs and medicine.


From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 17:08 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:02:17 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
To: Jim Gillogly <jimg@mentat.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I probably expressed myself imprecisely.  When I asked "anything that
> correlates Strong's ciphertext to his published plaintext", what I
> meant was "how does one get from plaintext to ciphertext and vice
> versa?"  So far my tunc-bag is empty on this point, and Strong's
> letter to me didn't mend the rip.

The purpose of this exercise is to provide interested parties with Strong's
notes and let them decide for themselves the usefulness of Strong's
approach.  I have had very little time since receiving these documents to
evaluate them, and I can only say that his approach was not the approach I
used in rebuilding his results.  As I stated before, on some points I was
quite correct, and on others I missed the mark completely.  It seems my
only redeeming virtue in this matter is that I have retained an open mind.

> If Strong had published his methods, perhaps someone would have pursued
> them.

When the argument is whether or not someone should publish incomplete
results, perhaps I could argue that Brumbaugh and Levitov should have
abstained from publishing altogether.  Strong's two publications point out
that his work was incomplete, and they also express that he published his
partial results only for the purpose of enticing the owners of the
manuscript into allowing him access to the document in order to complete
his work.  Strong was 49 and 51 years old respectively at the time of his
publications, and when the manuscript was sold to Kraus, he was at that
time 66 years old.  By the time the manuscript came available to the public
in limited form, Strong was 71 years old.  I for one do not find it hard to
imagine why he did not pursue the work from this point.

> While Strong's <results> were evidently rejected by Friedman, his methods
> certainly were not, because his methods were not described.  As I wrote
to
> Strong (probably presumptuously), I was taught that the essence of
science
> is reproducibility.  If he doesn't expose his methods, he can't complain
> about lack of support from the community.  In the crypto biz, "Trust me"
> doesn't take you very far.

Friedman rejected any claim of polyalphabeticity, no matter how small. 
Strong's stated method was "a peculiar use of a double reversing arithmetic
string on multiple alphabets."  Friedman did indeed attack Strong's
methods, even without seeing them.  Strong's complaint was not about lack
of support from the community.  In fact his letters show great support from
colleagues.  His complaint was how viciously he was attacked by Friedman
and others for even attempting to solve the puzzle, and how inappropriate
it was to launch such attacks on research the attackers had never seen. 
Open mindedness is all he asked. 

> Please don't regard this as an attack on your work or on Strong's (or
> on you personally!).  I simply point out that the verdict is "unproven"
> until the evidence can be seen and weighed.  I look forward to seeing
> the scanned worksheets, and applaud you for finding them!

You obviously felt that your remarks could be read with more than one
meaning, and indeed they have.  Perhaps you and I should both put our
swords away until such a time as the evidence is "seen and weighed".  My
stated purpose is after all, to provide you and everyone else with the
tools necessary to objectively evaluate the work.  Let's at least agree on
the purpose.

I have agreed to send photocopies to Jim Reeds for his study, much in my
mind with a purpose of having a backup copy so I am not unduly burdened as
the only source.  His interest in locating the documents showed some
ability to be receptive to the more rejected forms of research.  I am also
intrigued with the letters from Denis Mardle, and I would like this person
to examine a copy if he/she may reply to me personally with an address. 
(Sorry, I am not familiar with the spelling of Denis, unless it is just a
misprint.)

I am still looking for web-accessible storage space for the scanned
documents.  The alternative is to post these documents to the mailing list,
which could be objectionable to those not interested.  Any help in this
this matter is greatly appreciated.


Regards,  Rayman

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 19:00 EST 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:36:13 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: Re: VMS: transliteration question (and a *novel* theory)
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Jacques Guy Wrote>

>Secondly, a transcription system is fundamentally nothing but a simple
>substitution cipher, which does not affect the properties of the text
>at all.

	A simple character for character transliteration is indeed a 
simple substitution cipher, but could we not be looking for what 
determines what a character is? If a character is represented by one 
symbol than no further transliterations are necessary, but if the 
structure of a word isn't readily identifiable by single strokes than 
could the reorganizing of the strokes into one character not bring more 
grammatical changes (if there are any) to the surface? I don't know if 
I'm heading the wrong way or not with my transliterations, but I'd like 
to clarify what a single character consists of. It may be that the 
original single stroke = single character is correct, but then it may be 
that the patterns of CCC and iii are there for a reason.

	The EVA transliteration was an excellent example of looking at 
the Voynich in a pronouncable realm, but pronounciation isn't the only 
reason for trying out alphabet systems. The first system I posted 
differs only slightly from EVA - their iiim iim im and m are similar in 
nature to mine. There are some difficulties in the consistencies of both 
systems, and Rene has pointed out some good areas for me to make some 
alterations. If we actually hit on what determines a complete character 
in Voynichese, we might be able to identify word functions. - Yes, 
There's always the possibility that we never make a system that works - 
Hey, it's been about 500 years so far...

	Anyways, if alternate transliterations are pointless they will 
run their course and disappear. 

				John.

From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 25 04:05 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:54:21 +0200
Subject: VMS: transliteration question (and a *novel* theory)
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Dear all,

> Firstly, we know that the low entropy of the VMS is
> incompatible with a cipher, as enciphering a text *raises* its entropy.

A decent cipher should perhaps do that. Now assuming that the VMs is
in cipher, is it a good one or a bad one? The first impression when
it was found was that it was a very bad (=easy) one. All frequency
distributions (characters, words) had very pronounced shapes, not flat,
as a good cipher should do. Flat distributions give rise to high entropy.
Now since we know that there is no easy way to crack the VMs, maybe the
cipher is *very good*. Maybe it managed to introduce new non-flat
frequency distributions, putting everybody on the wrong trail.

I only recently learned, as most specialists would already have known
for a long time, that in the time frame of the VMs (late 15C), codes
were already designed to flatten the frequency distributions (and raise
the entropy). So was the VMs later? Or by an even more clever writer?
Let's take A.Askham. How could a complicated polyalphabetic system
yield repeated words? Coincidence cannot be accepted as an explanation.
So this must have been by an extremely clever design. Here we will soon
know more.

More to the point about increased/unchanged entropy:

> Indeed, there are 36 Currier letters. It is a trivial enough matter to
> assign a syllable to each: 5 vowels and 8 consonants, or 4 vowels and
> 9 consonants will do nicely. But so what? It is just like India Tango
> India Sierra Juliet Uniform Sierra Tango Lima India Kilo Echo, isn't
> it? It won't change anything at all to the problem.

Indeed nothing is changed. But isn't this much more repetitive: Romeo Echo
Papa Echo Tango India Tango India Victor Echo.
So, in the way we calculate entropy, we get different answers each time.
If we transcribe the VMs in EVA we need <32 characters, so we can go to
5 bits per character. Let's write the bits.
A one-on-one correspondence. Only now our h1
is not anywhere near 3.76. Instead, h1+h2+h3+h4+h5 will be somewhere
near 3.76.
That is really our own fault. I like the theory that the VMs
low entropy is simply because we are calculating it incorrectly.
And by matching the series h1+..+hn for Voynichese and, say, Latin
or English, we can estimate a 'compression ratio' needed to
turn Voynichese into a more honest language. Above, this ratio was
5. At a hunch, I would say that Voynichese is closer to 1.3 - 1.5
(e.g. 4 Voynich characters represent 3 Latin characters)

Cheers,  Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 25 05:59 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:43:53 +0200
Subject: Thoughts and Questions
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Denis Mardle writes:

> The Zodiac months have been split 15:15 for Aries and Taurus (
> dark,light,light,dark when put in order.)   Also the stars must surely
relate
> to longitude degrees, the missing  folio is most unlikely to make up to
365
> days.   Even Pisces which has 29 stars with the figures has a thirtieth
star in > the centre with  the fish ( ? pike ? ) not seen in the other
months.

Astrological systems giving one sign for each degree were described
by Peter of Abano (14C) in his Astrolabium Planum and in the so-called
'Heidelberger Schicksalsbuch' a much later translation and explanation of
P. d'Abano's work. I am still pursuing these documents, but first
indications are that the short labels near the stars in our zodiac
do not match well with the names used in these two documents. These
are of a typical descriptive nature 'a man with red hair carrying a sword'
and each one occurs several times (more so than we see in the Voynich
labels).
Main conclusion: whereas the VMs again seems original, it is not
entirely original and similar astrological systems do exist.

Aries and Taurus do play a special role in some alchemical illustrations,
which may be behind this special treatment. A much more down to Earth
explanation may be that the vellum size at this point did not allow
for the complete circles. Note that here the draftsman was still taking
great care with his drawing, but in the later zodiac signs he is getting
more and more careless or hasty and he does cramp complete circles
in smaller areas.

Denis: I remember reading you have some doubt about the original
page ordering of the VMs. Did you also notice that the drawings
of two biological folios connect with each other. I think it
is f83r with its counterpart on the same bifolium. This would
make sense if they were the central bifolium in the quire, but
now they are not. Maybe they were designed to be. Also, the
text-only 'introductory page'  to the biological section is not the
first page of this quire.
Then again, as opposed to most other sections, the drawings of
the biological section seem a bit more marginal. These could be simply
doodles without a deeper meaning.

Cheers,  Rene



From monty.rand.org!jim Tue Feb 25 06:02 EST 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 10:51:02 GMT
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To: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Transliteration
Status: OR

In a previous submission I said that an improved transcription should have
less entropy than the Currier version:  I meant of course that it should have
more entropy and less redundancy.

Jacques's idea about hiragana and Rene's comment on John Grove's transliteration
both seem to suggest that the main trouble might be a false analysis of the
original characters:  and I should not be surprised if, say, Currier CC turned
out to be a single unit.  But if this was the only trouble, we should expect
to find a distorted frequency distribution for pairs and triples of characters,
and no effect on the distribution of larger units like syllables.  For instance,if an English manuscript had been poorly transcribed, so that 'm' came out as
'in' 90% of the time, we should wrongly think that the pair 'in' was much more
frequent than it really is;  but we should not find that 'i' was almost never
succeeded by 'a' at any point in the same word, or any long range restriction
of such a kind.  And yet *long range* regularities are a feature of the VMS.

Take Currier AC9OU to be vowels and all other characters to be consonants.
Force the Currier transcription to the vowel consonant pattern by inserting
dummy characters, v and c, thus:  c before an initial vowel and between two
consecutive vowels, v between two consecutive consonants and after a final
consonant, so that OFAM is vOFAMv and 4OFCCT9 is 4OFCcCt9.  Then index the
resulting text by consonants only and vowels only.  Consonant skeletons on
their own and vowel skeletons on their own are still incredibly redundant:
the first consonant after initial 4 is so often F, so many words fit the
patterns -O-A- and -O-C-9, etc.  Above all, it seems that most characters are
never followed by themselves after an interval of one character: E-E, C-C and
R-R are relatively common, but F-F, M-M etc are rare if not unknown.  I do
not see how false character division can explain this kind of pattern.

It is long range redundancy of this kind which attracts me to apparently
bizarre theories like Pig Latin and the like.

Philip Neal
Department of Computing
University of Essex

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 17:09 EST 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> > The Weirdo on Folio 24v
> > =======================
 
> > Likewise the strange thing that ends line 6 of folio 24v,
> > which I would write in advanced Frogguy:
 
> >         s
> >c-lj a 2 A-2
 
> I would say: a correction. The writer forgot the s and inserted
> it later.

It still remains a weirdo. A very weird weirdo: 

c-lj a 2 AS2 (in advanced Frogguy)

 
> Since the absence of visible corrections has sometimes been offered
> as an indication that the VMs may be a hoax, isn't the fact, that there
> are a few, evidence that it is not a hoax? I'd like to think so....


Good point.
 
> > <4o> Revisited
 
> Is 'wa' always word-initial? 

No. E.g. sawagu "to shout"


> And we have to worry about a few cases where the 4 is followed
> by something else. If that something is not a or 9, would
> it have to be a scribal error? 

I was looking at Petersen this morning. He had sic'ed (on I forgot
which folio, I should have made a note of it): 4clpox or something
like that. On that same folio, the "correct" 4olpox occurred 
several times. 

> How could a scribe not
> notice that these handful of times the 4 is not
> followed by o?

I don't know. Could that 4c be due to half the expected o having
worn off? I saw a few cases of 4 followed by gallows, too.

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 17:57 EST 1997
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Subject: VMS: transliteration question (and a *novel* theory)
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Neal P wrote:
 
> Please don't interpret my previous submission as hostile:  what John Grove is
> doing is the kind of work I should like to see more of.  I take it that the
> aim is to produce a pronounceable transcription of the VMS which also has less
> entropy than the original. 

Wait a minute... it seems to me that this is chasing one's tail.

Firstly, we know that the low entropy of the VMS is incompatible with a
cipher, as enciphering a text *raises* its entropy. 

Secondly, a transcription system is fundamentally nothing but a simple
substitution cipher, which does not affect the properties of the text
at all. If you encipher, say, each letter as a string of 0's and 1's,
you are going to get different absolute values for the character 
entropy of course, but you are not going in any way to affect the
amount of predictability or unpredictability of the text. Let me
take a bibulous analogy: this whisky is 80 proof (US). It is also
70 proof (UK), and 40% (alcohol by volume). 80, 70, 40, they are
different measurements, but the potency of the brew is unchanged.

BTW, I have had no response to my last posts on measuring chaos,
and no-one has done the "homework". Have they reached anyone???

> Now there are plenty of ways of rewriting the
> Currier letters so that they can be pronounced (I use one myself but I should
> not wish to argue strongly for it):  what puzzles me is why it is thought
> desirable that there should be strict alternation of vowel and consonant, and
> why Grove's numerical symbols should be interpreted as tones.

Indeed, there are 36 Currier letters. It is a trivial enough matter to
assign a syllable to each: 5 vowels and 8 consonants, or 4 vowels and
9 consonants will do nicely. But so what? It is just like India Tango
India Sierra Juliet Uniform Sierra Tango Lima India Kilo Echo, isn't 
it? It won't change anything at all to the problem. There is an 
uncountably large number of ways in which Voynichian can be made
pronounceable. Hoping that one will coincide with a known language
is building haystacks around the needle! 

*Novel* theory coming up!

In fact, I quite like the EVA haystack. In it, the opening word of
the VMS is: fachys. Well, the VMS was discovered near Rome, wasn't it?
In 1912 wasn't it? The dates are about right. Mussolini wrote it!
(He misspelt "fascista" on purpose? Or just plain couldn't spell? Take
your pick!). I am sure that Mussolini was educated by the Jesuits
in Mondragone. They confiscated his "Mein Kampf" and just forgot
about it. If not Mussolini, then someone else.

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 18:30 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:59:18 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: VMS: Strong's notes: twenty megabytes?
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rmalek wrote:
 
 
> I am still looking for web-accessible storage space for the scanned
> documents.  

Wait, wait, wait! You mentioned a figure of 20M. But from your
other posts I gathered that Strong's notes concerned only
*two* folios. What is the nature, and number, of those documents?
I can barely imagine 20M of images representing fewer than 200 
pages (100K per page). Even if you had the storage for 20M, would
remain the problem, for anyone interested, of dowloading those
documents. Look at it from my end for instance. The most I can
get is 3K/sec. Sometimes I get as little as 200 bytes per second.
Usually, it is around 800 bytes/sec. That means SEVEN hours to
download 20M. In fact, 20M sounds about roughly the amount of
JPEG images that would be needed to get a rough scanned copy of
the VMS if Yale would let us.

> The alternative is to post these documents to the mailing list,
> which could be objectionable to those not interested.

It would be objectionable even to those interested, for the very 
reason I just mentioned. You would have to do in very small 
installments, 100K at the most. And it would still amount 20M
in all.

So:

1. What is the nature of those notes? Are they typed, are they
   handwritten? Do they contain diagrams?

2. How many pages are there?

3. What format is it you had in mind? Of course, if you are thinking
   of scanning them into BMP format, 20M might well represent only
   20 pages, or 10 even. I can hardly believe that they would take
   20M in a more efficient format. For instance, I scanned the 
   Jaussen list (a list of Easter Island hieroglyphs) into GIF
   format. With experimenting I managed to fit each page into under
   30K. I had to experiment a lot. With some settings I ended up
   with 90K per page! From 22K to 28K was the best I could do,
   keeping the pages very legible. Go and have a look, they are on:

   http://www.netaxs.com/~trance/jaussen.html

   So, if there are only, say, ten pages of Strong's notes, they may
   well hold in 300K of GIFs, and less of JPEGs. And again, if it is
   only ten, even twenty pages, then you would be far better off
   typing them. That would reduce the lot to about 30K, a most
   manageable size.

From monty.rand.org!jim Mon Feb 24 23:21 EST 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:48:46 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Re: VMS: transliteration question 
References: <29107.9702241441@csc2.essex.ac.uk> <331320C0.342@trl.telstra.com.au> <331225ED.53DC@fox.nstn.ca>
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John & Sue Grove wrote:

> but could we not be looking for what
> determines what a character is? 

Yes, of course. We should also be looking for what determines
what a word is. 


> It may be that the
> original single stroke = single character is correct

It cannot be. A is written with two strokes, 4 is written with
two, and 9 also (EVA y). Yet we all tacitly agree that those
are single characters, and we are very very probably right there.

> but then it may be
> that the patterns of CCC and iii are there for a reason.

It is also almost certain that ii and iii are single 
characters, and I have argued here several years ago that
cc was a single character (as it is, for instance, in
the medieval scripts known as Beneventan and Visigothic)

> If we actually hit on what determines a complete character
> in Voynichese, we might be able to identify word functions.

Well, no, that is not a prerequisite. Let me take an example.
Suppose I write "can you speak Japanese?" in hiragana:
nihongo ga dekimasu ka. Now, "ni" and "ho" both start with a vertical
stroke, and the right part of "ni" looks very much like the kana
for "ko". Further, "go", "ga", "de" are written "ko", "ka", "te",
with two small strokes added (looking like "). Finally, the
right part of "ho" looks like "ma". Therefore, knowing no
Japanese, I might very well transcribe "nihongo ga dekimasu ka"
as:
 
 skosmanko" ka" te"kimasu ka

Well, it wouldn't matter one iota! Given a long enough corpus,
I would discover that |ko|manko" occurs time and again, sometimes 
followed by ka", sometimes by |q, sometimes by no, sometimes by...
I would discover that sentences almost always end with ka, ne, yo, 
or masu, and that the set of  "words" preceding "masu" does not
intersect the set of words preceding sentence-final ka, ne, and yo.

Small step by small step, you would discover Japanese grammar, and
lexicon, not knowing what it all meant. You would be completely
wrong in pronunciation (nihongo is NOT skosmanko"), but right in 
everything else!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Feb 26 01:11:02 1997
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	rmalek on Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:02:17 -0700)
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
Status: OR


> When the argument is whether or not someone should publish incomplete
> results, perhaps I could argue that Brumbaugh and Levitov should have
> abstained from publishing altogether. 

It is *possible* (difficult, but possible) to reconstruct Brumbaugh's
transcription matrix from his book and articles, which is different from
announcing that line X of folio Y reads "twas brillig and the slithey
toves..." In addition, while I think Brumbaugh was wrong, his work was
head and shoulders above other claimed decipherments -- it's a slur on
his work on the mss. to mention him in the same breath as Levitov.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Feb 26 03:14:02 1997
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Subject: VMS: disjunct gallows, more Arabic and numbers perhaps
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Jacques writes:

> Disjunct Gallows....
> I found eleven in Petersen. They all affect the first word
> of a paragraph. Here they are, in basic Frogguy:

I need to get E-mail at home!! Where my Voynich stuff is.
And my little weirdoes database.
>From memory I think there is one page in the early herbal
area where disjunt gallows occur twice. The second one may
not be the first word of a paragraph, but I think it is the
first line of a paragraph (otherwise there would not be
enough space, or better: the extra space needed makes us
call it the start of a paragraph).

> Note that the left leg is always q, never l.

Usually yes. I wonder if always.... I can come back on this
next week.

> More numbers?
> This is towards the end of Petersen's manuscript, p.264 (his own
> numbering).
> He gives the folio, but it is illegible in my copy. Line 193
> (Petersen's numbering) has x o 2 in its middle. Line 196 has o x 2
> towards its end:

> In both cases o x 2 are clearly separated from each other and from the
> rest of the text. Digits?

Whatever they are, they seem to come straight from the sequence
on f57v: o x 8 2 ..... (4 times) In both cases, numbers are as
good a guess as anything else....
But as usual, nothing ever fits. o could be zero or five, x should
be four, 8, well, eight, 2 should be 2 (or 12?) and after that
are the chinese hat and picnic table. Chinese hat could also be 8...
The picnic table represents 20 in ethiopian script, so
(pardon my Frogguy).....

o   x   8   2   v   n
----------------------
0   4   8   2  16?  20
5?         12?

The multiples of 4 seem very attractive, but this breaks down later on...
Symbols for zodiac signs?
Symbols for planets?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Feb 26 02:23:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 00:04:04 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
To: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> It is *possible* (difficult, but possible) to reconstruct Brumbaugh's
> transcription matrix from his book and articles, which is different from
> announcing that line X of folio Y reads "twas brillig and the slithey
> toves..." In addition, while I think Brumbaugh was wrong, his work was
> head and shoulders above other claimed decipherments -- it's a slur on
> his work on the mss. to mention him in the same breath as Levitov.
>
It is also possible to reconstruct other meanings from Brumbaugh's matrix,
but I do agree in principal with your comment.  It is indeed an injustice
to Brumbaugh's labors that I placed these names together in the same
sentence.

Please accept my apology for enacting such an injustice upon Dr. Brumbaugh.

My basis for argument is that if the work cannot be scientifically
evaluated and duplicated, even if the work involved has promise, it should
not be released as a "solution".  Brumbaugh's work in my opinion showed
some promise, but the thought was not carried far enough to be made
understandable to the reader.  Brumbaugh did release his work as a
"solution" instead of a study without applying accepted methods of
confirmation to his work.

There is no reason why Strong could not have released his findings at some
point, but he would have released his work only as a study, and not a
solution.  His claim of solution was with all hope that the owners would
release the manuscript and allow him to complete his work, and he believed
quite strongly that he had found at least part of the solution at the time
of his publications.  Strong seemed to be quite afraid of releasing partial
results, mostly because (taken from his letters) that someone else like
Friedman would finish his work and rob him of his rightful acknowledgement.
 There was no love lost between these two men.

Strong's attempts to influence the owners of the manuscript involved more
than a release of statements like "line X of folio Y reads "twas brillig
and slithey toves..."".  Strong and E. W. McCawley released a scientific
analysis of a contraceptive formula Strong deciphered from folio 93 recto,
along with his decipherment of more than half of that folio as context. 
The contraceptive worked, as they proved in the laboratory.
  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Feb 25 15:44:06 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:14:15 -0800
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Disjunct Gallows
================

I decided to look for "disjunct gallows". Gallows the left and right
legs of which are several letters apart. I found eleven in Petersen.
They all affect the first word of a paragraph. Here they are, in 
basic Frogguy:

Folio 8r,  line 12: cqto cpt9
Folio 8v,  line 1:  cqto8 soccpt
Folio 30v, line 11: cqc s cptaiv  (this is the one in Bennett 1976)
Folio 35r, line 1:  cqtoo 2 ctox9 cpt9
Folio 42r, line ??: cq't oljaiiv clpt a it cpt9 (see comments below)
Folio 56r, line 1:  oqctax ctctsp9
Folio 80r, line 26: cqt cptc9
Folio 85-86, p.4, line 20: cqtoxcpt9
Folio 90c, line ?:  cqjt 8a ipt9
Folio 95v, line ?:  qoxqpcc89 cpto
Folio 100v, line?:  cqt8cccpt9

Yes I am kicking myself: I realize now that I forgot to write down the
lines where some occur.

Comments.
Folio 42r. The left leg (q) intrudes into c't. This is exceptional, I
do not think I have encountered any case of complete gallows intruding
in c't, only ct or its variant it. Petersen circled the cq' sequence,
and wrote 'sic' in the margin. Note that the left leg (q) intrudes
between the c and the plume ('). Further, the line linking the left leg
(q) to the right leg (p) is "knotted" in its centre, like this:

              .---.
  ------------|---'
          .---|--------- 
          `---'     

Folio 90v. The gallows (qj) intruding into ct are connected to the
lone right leg (p) intruding into it, like this:

        --.    .--.
       `--|----|--'                      
        .-|----'                        .---.
        `-|-----------------------------|---'     
          |                             |
          |                             |
          |                             |
          |                             |



Folio 95v. Left and right legs are linked by a line knotted in the
middle, like on folio 42r.


To me, those gallows have been written after the words which they
cover, and they are not letters, but a sort of underlining.

Note that the left leg is always q, never l.

What does this tell us about the nature of the complete corresponding
gallows (qp)? 


More Arabic?
============

On Folio 9r, line 6, the fourth word, between olpaii2 and 8o2ax,
is utterly alien. The best I can do, in advanced frogguy is:

 Oldjcc

The cc looks exactly like a lowercase Greek omega. It is connected
to the left to a small circle (0). Standing on the connecting line
is a gallows (dj) with its loop not "dangling" but making a sharp
turn and and continuing down, exactly vertically, finally connecting
to the top of the circle where the horizontal line meets. The whole
thing is most unlik Voynichese. You can write it in a single stroke
from right to left. Mangled Arabic?


More numbers?
=============

This is towards the end of Petersen's manuscript, p.264 (his own
numbering).
He gives the folio, but it is illegible in my copy. Line 193 (Petersen's
numbering) has x o 2 in its middle. Line 196 has o x 2 towards its end:

193 saiiv c+te8 4olpc+to x o 2 ctco xoxaiiv c+tc9 4olpaiv ctca2 4oqpcox
c"tcqpt9 [illegible]

196 qpai2 c+tc89 4occ8aiiv olpaiv c+ttc9 lpaiiv c+c9 oqpaaiv axlpaiv o x
2 ox 8aiv

In both cases o x 2 are clearly separated from each other and from the
rest of
the text. Digits?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Feb 26 19:32:02 1997
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Message-ID: <3314D575.1CA@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:29:41 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Jacques wrote:

>Small step by small step, you would discover Japanese grammar, and
>lexicon, not knowing what it all meant. You would be completely
>wrong in pronunciation (nihongo is NOT skosmanko"), but right in 
>everything else!

	I'd be impressed if we managed that much with VMS! The actual 
pronounciation isn't important - but if we could figure out the grammar 
and lexicon - then take in the picture clues given for context make a 
giant leap for mankind! (Exaggeration?)

	I also noted that someone had raised question as to the 
consistent consonant-vowel pattern of my 'Fifth.txt'. Japanese isn't 
much off of this - The only stand-alone consonant (I could be wrong?) is 
'n' as seen in Ni ho n go. Yes, the vowels are seen by themselves with 
their very own - 'When it's a stand-alone' character.  What I mean by 
this is that the "o's" in Nihongo are not visible in the character set, 
but the "o" in "Nihongo 'o' hanashimasu ka?" has its own character. That 
same character is seen in Otaru and other words where the O is 
distinctly separate from a consonant.

	I don't want anyone to think that I believe the VMS to be 
oriental by design - and I certainly don't think we're looking at a 
'known' language hidden by design.

	John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Feb 27 05:05:01 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 26 Feb 97 at 19:29, John & Sue Grove wrote:

> 	I also noted that someone had raised question as to the 
> consistent consonant-vowel pattern of my 'Fifth.txt'. Japanese isn't 
> much off of this - The only stand-alone consonant (I could be wrong?) is 
> 'n' as seen in Ni ho n go. Yes, the vowels are seen by themselves with 
> their very own - 'When it's a stand-alone' character.  What I mean by 
> this is that the "o's" in Nihongo are not visible in the character set, 
> but the "o" in "Nihongo 'o' hanashimasu ka?" has its own character. That 
> same character is seen in Otaru and other words where the O is 
> distinctly separate from a consonant.

That character sounds "o" but it is in reality another character 
whose "proper name" is wo.
To complicate a bit further, the example or "wa" in the begining of 
words:

Watashi wa wakarimasen (I don't know), the 2nd word "wa" , sounds 
"wa" but you write it "ha", so it's not a real "wa".
Wa is not always in the begining of the word.

Owari (end)
 --

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Feb 27 08:59:02 1997
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Subject: RE: VMS: John Dee (Re: No 1-on-1's)
From: mlynch@mail07.mitre.org (Michael S. Lynch)
To: voynich@rand.org
Message-Id: <970227085214.8513@mail07.mitre.org.0>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 08:52:18 -0500
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R Malekini states:
>> I will however accept any private conversation relating to the works
>> of Dr. John Dee, as this has been and will remain my primary
>> cryptologic study.
>
>What a coincidence. Looking for I forgot what (nothing to do
>with the Voynich manuscript), I came across the John Dee Society
>at this address:
>
>http://redwood.pacweb.com/stevex/johndee/
>
>It is strange that I should never have come across this site
>before, as it has at least one reference to the Voynich
>manuscript, which they link to the '"Liber Mysteriorum Sextus 
>et Sanctus," a.k.a. "Liber Loagaeth" ("The Book of Speech 
>From God") as received by John Dee and Edward Kelly'. There is
>even a second reference, according to which it is Dee who
>sold the VMS to Rudolph II.I just did an AltaVista
>search on "Voynich Manuscript". It returned 93 answers. I went
>through the lot, and none pointed to the John Dee Society. 
>Strange. One of the two pages where "Voynich Manuscript"
>occurs is dated  1st September 1996. How come the AltaVista Web
>crawler missed it?


No answer on the AltaVista miss, but in relation to the John Dee Society, 
there hasn't been a great deal of traffic in that e-list (read moribund). Much 
more Dee discussion has been generated through Clay Holden who is transposing 
all of the Librii Quinti Mysteriorum into Acrobat format. (He isn't done yet. 
It's a big job.) He is probably easily found through a search, however if 
anyone wishes to speak to him I can ask him if he would respond. (I don't 
particularly crave being in the middle, but feel that, as he has not 
personally stated he wishes to be "Dee Central" he deserves the courtesy of a 
request first.) I might also suggest the enochian e-list of which he and many 
other interested parties are members. (To take this Dee discussion off away 
from the Voynich discussion, if necessary.)
Best regards,
 Michael Lynch (Interested Lurker)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Feb 27 10:50:02 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: labels and 4O's
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 15:43:16 GMT
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     From Denis V.Mardle              27 Feb 1997

  My attempts to find labels from roots etc. on folios 99r, 99v and 100r on Currier's file are 
incomplete but are producing puzzling results.   More on this later.      What I have noticed
from my limited set of labels including Zodiac, astronomical ,biological and pharmaceutical 
folios is that they DO NOT appear to start with 4O's  Has anyone a fairly complete list of these 
labels by folio number - the position on the folio ( except where clearly ordered ) is not relevant 
at present.?     If my rather rushed observation is correct it could mean  that nouns very rarely 
start 4O   A comment from our Linguists would be welcome.

  Thanks for the winzip ( vice WINZIP ) trail.  My only problem now is to download the 
Windows 95 version ( or its update ) and fill up about 600+k bytes of memory !

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Feb 27 21:17:02 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: ....., the infamous <4o>
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:12:45 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <3311D7AD.3E22@trl.telstra.com.au> from "Jacques Guy" at Feb 24, 97 10:02:21 am
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Jacques Guy recently wrote:
> 
> We have all been tearing our collective hair about  the infamous <4o>
> (EVA: qo).

Here's my contribution to the set of off-the-wall theories about this:

    4o is a variant of the gallows letter P (Currier translit.)

This is suggested by the fact that "P" is often written with a triangular
left loop and a round right one, and that "4" is almost always followed
by "o".

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Feb 27 22:44:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:33:04 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Madimi, Dee, and Steganographia
To: "Michael S. Lynch" <mlynch@mail07.mitre.org>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>  As your letter appeared in the Voynich list, you might guess that I have
an 
> interest in the VMS and things cryptologic.

Welcome to shared interests.  That is what the Internet is all about, no?

It is true. I have read Kahn's 
> "The Codebreakers" and other stories concerning the breakthroughs which 
> enabled Allied forces to decrypt German and Japanese codes and ciphers.

Kahn's book was rich on WWII lore, but only touched the surface of two
centuries rife with political intrigue - the 15th and 16th centuries.  It
was not until after the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 that this tide
of cipher began to recede, and even then it did not fall out of vogue until
around 1650.  The life and death struggle between Catholicism and
Protestantism, combined with the scientific breakthroughs of many
investigators unwilling to recant their knowledge - many of whom were under
Catholic subjugation, led to a great propensity of cipher works and related
cipher knowledge during this time period.  It was during this period that
many secret societies were founded on scientific thought, with the idea
that cipher would allow them to transfer knowledge across political and
religious boundaries to others of like interest.
 
>I confess that Dee's work is more interesting to me from a magical
standpoint, 
> but I have enough interest in codes and ciphers to find his mind
fascinating 
> in that respect also. Was the Steganographia instrumental in advancing
his skill or had 
> he already discovered much of its methods.

Dee had progressed far beyond the work of the Steganographia by the time he
became an important figure in Elizabeth's court, although his interest in
the manuscript was evidenced by his interaction with Cecil in 1562.  His
tutors are unknown, but the time period was definitely during his schooling
at Padua, alma mater of Henry Cornelius Agrippa.  Dee's Quinti Libri
Mysteriorum begins with a Latin prayer that is by his confession "Ut
Agrippa Notat", and Agrippa's notation refers to the third "unfinished"
book of Johannes Trithemius, Abbot of Tritenheim.  Because the Trithemian
book covers only one month out of twelve, some think it unfinished. 
Agrippa provided the Cabbalistic scheme of understanding in his Third Book
of Occult Philosophy, thus finishing the work of Trithemius in this
respect.

Did Dee use ciphers in any great amount? How were they 
> structured? 

None were better at cipher than the Protestants, who took advantage of
Trithemian ciphers and the like, even using them to political ends.  The
advancement of scientific knowledge under protestant rule was without
equal, and the father of scientific approach lies in the English Heartland,
also due to Protestantism and the ability to assimilate information through
cipher.

My question to you is this - what part of Dee's works is not cipher in one
respect or another, and how can anyone assume differently given the
historical and educational background of such a man as Dr. John Dee?

 Were all major discoveries that shaped Europe for the last 400 years made
in a small time period, or were they made by people across the globe and
across a broader spectrum of time who chose to communicate in secret?  As
far back as Roger Bacon (13th century), it was noted that the best way of
hiding something from the Catholic Church was to mask it in magic, and one
could be sure that it would never be read, much less be considered a
communication of an earthly sort.  Dee was a big Roger Bacon fan and an
excellent mathematician.  Do the math yourself and form your own
conclusions.  Why would Deacon consider a reference to a microscope a
reference to a "shewstone"?  Because he was not aware of what I know about
Dee.  This is just one example.

 How do you see "Madimi"'s 
> usefulness as a key to the LMQ?

"Madimi" is a six key sequence, basically 11-1-4-9-11-9.  When you match it
up with its seven key counterpart, something interesting happens.  This is
all I will say for now.  


Regards, Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Feb 27 22:41:01 1997
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:33:34 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: Madimi, Dee, and Steganographia
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: Michael S. Lynch <mlynch@mail07.mitre.org>
> To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
> Subject: Re: Madimi, Dee, and Steganographia
> Date: Thursday, February 27, 1997 6:25 AM
> 
> 
> >Hello Michael, and nice to meet you!
> >
> >The name "madimi" has very special significance, and is drawn from Dee's
> >Quinti Libri Mysteriorum.  Madimi is a key to the tables that follow the
> >Sigillum, and I use the name because of the special significance it had
to
> >Dee himself.  Madimi is the in-road to the tables of Liber Sextus et
> >Sanctus, but this is not magic I speak of - I speak only of cipher and
the
> >extensive works of a very brilliant mind.  It was in fact the study of
Dee
> >that led me to the Voynich in the first place.
> >
> >Does this answer your question satisfactorily?
> 
> Hello Rayman,
>  As your letter appeared in the Voynich list, you might guess that I have
an 
> interest in the VMS and things cryptologic. It is true. I have read
Kahn's 
> "The Codebreakers" and other stories concerning the breakthroughs which 
> enabled Allied forces to decrypt German and Japanese codes and ciphers. I

> confess that Dee's work is more interesting to me from a magical
standpoint, 
> but I have enough interest in codes and ciphers to find his mind
fascinating 
> in that respect also. Did Dee use ciphers in any great amount? How were
they 
> structured? Was the Steganographia instrumental in advancing his skill or
had 
> he already discovered much of its methods. How do you see "Madimi"'s 
> usefulness as a key to the LMQ?
> Well that ought to be enough questions for a start. :-)
> 
> Best regards,
>  Michael

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar  1 11:05:02 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 16:05:01 +0000
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Subject: More fonts
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
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Status: OR

Hi all,
I updated the fonts in the EVMT page. 
http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

Now the available alphabets are Currier, EVA and Frogguy.
The last 2 alphabets support the capitalisation rule for connection 
to the next character.
The formats of the files are:

TrueType (Win)
Encapsulated PS
Type 1 (Unix)
Type 1 (Win)

and a sample is visible in the page, in the section: "What does the 
script look like?"

I have an offer by a member of list to produce the Mac TT. 
I'll update the information when they're ready. The package has grown 
a little bit: 210 KB

Please let me know if there are any problems with the fonts, 
especially the Type 1 and EPS since I cannot use them.

regards,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar  1 12:02:02 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:03:34 +0000
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Status: OR

Before putting the ZIP file in my account I did not realise that I 
may be near the limit of my account (not sure).
I decided to not to include the EPS fonts so save 1/2 the size of the 
ZIP file. I anybody needs these EPS fonts, contact to me directly and 
I will send them by e-mail.

So, the files available are: True Type, Type 1 (Win) and Type 1 
(Unix).

regards to all,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar  1 17:20:02 1997
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Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 17:18:44 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Once again, I've modified the script by combining 1 to 4 symbols 
into single characters. The attached file (extracted from EVMT's 
interln.txt) has a sample from Herbal A and B, along with the available 
lists of stars - using the latest syllabic set, described below. I am 
still using what I term as tones, although they could as easily be 
described as accents.

	Consonants are derived from the final stroke based on the 
following:

	Final stroke in Currier Notation of:
8 & 7 = K
2 & R = M
O & E = F
9 & D = G
6 & J = B

	Vowels from Currier: C = O, I = A, S = E, Z = U, A = Y

	Vowel tones(accents):
 1st - connected to consonant (not labled ie: go1, just go)
 2nd - one C or I precede consonant (labled as go2)
 3rd - two C's or I's precede consonant (go3)
 4th - three C's or I's precede consonant (go4)

	CCC9 = go4 IIIR = ma4 (Currier 0 = IIIR)
        S9 = ge, SC9 = ge2, ZCC9 = gu3

	Currier A = y and can fall between two vowels so that:

	CAR = mayo, CAIR = ma2yo, AR = may, SCAR = maye, ZCAR = mayu

Vowels that aren't obviously followed by a consonant were assigned
	H for e - He, W for O - Wo, W for U - Wu, Y for A - Ay

Gallows:
4 = Sh'
B Shi3
F Shi2
P Shi
Q Chi
V Shi4
W Chi3
X Chi2
Y Chi4

	Well, this gives me a character set that redefines the script 
somewhat. Perhaps, I am off on a tangent that few will follow or agree 
with, but I do like to let people know where I'm going - at least you 
know where I am. If you do wish to examine a longer version of the text 
for any signs of real language, drop me a line and I'll send you the 
whole of the interln.txt rewritten in this syllabic set. Thanks again 
for providing the on-line files to work with and the constructive 
comments passed before.

				John.
------------26E618173C380
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="Newtone.txt"



# Currier's language A, hand 1
# herbal
<f27r>
<f27r.1;C>         Shi2MaFoMa Gu2 FuShiFo2 HeShi4FoMaGa3y Gu -FuKo MayeGo -
<f27r.1;F>         Shi2MaFoMa Gu2 FuShiFo2 HeShi4Fo MaGa3y Gu -FuKo MayeGo -
<f27r.2;C>         KoGo HeGa2y FuFa KoGa2y KoMay FuShi2GoKo -KoFeFa ChiGo2 KoMa -
<f27r.2;F>         KoGo HeGa2y FuFa KoGa2y KoMay FuShi2GoKo -KoFeFa ChiGo2KoMa -
<f27r.3;C>         FeShi2 Gu Shi2Fo2Fa FeFa Ge FuFa Ge -KoGa3y Ge2 KoBay -
<f27r.3;F>         FeFa Gu Shi2Fo2Fa FeFa Gu FuFa Ge -KoGa3y Ge2 KoBay -
<f27r.4;C>         Sh'FoShi2Go2 FeMa Maye Ge KoGe Shi2Go3 -FeMa ChiFoKoGo -
<f27r.4;F>         Sh'FoShi2Go2 FeMa Maye Ge KoGe Shi2Go3 -FeMa ChiFoKoGo -
<f27r.5;C>         KoFoMa Me4 ChiFo Gu Chi3MayGo -KoGa3y KoMa2y -
<f27r.5;F>         KoFoMa Me4 ChiFo Gu Chi3MayGo -KoGa3y KoMa2y -
<f27r.6;C>         Ge ShiFeFaMa FeMa FeFa Ga3ye -Gu Shi2Faye KoGo =
<f27r.6;F>         Ge ShiFeFaMa FeMa FeFa Ga3ye -Gu Shi2FayeKoGo =
<f27r.7;C>         Shi2FeGo Ge2 Shi2Fe2Fa Shi3Fe MaGe2 FaGo -FayeMa Baye -
<f27r.7;F>         Shi2Ge2 Ge2 Shi2Fe2Fa Shi3Ge MaGe2 FaGo -FayeMa Baye -
<f27r.8;C>         GoShiGe Ge ShiFeFa KoGo ShiGe2 KoGa2y -FeFa KoFay -
<f27r.8;F>         GoShiGe Ge ShiFeFa KoGo ShiGe2 KoGa2y -FeFa KoFay -
<f27r.9;C>         KoGe2 Shi2Fo3Ko FuShiGe2 FeFa FoShiGo -GeShiFoFaChi -
<f27r.9;F>         KoGe2 Shi2Fo3Ko Fu ShiGe2 FeFa FoShiGo -Ge ShiFoFa -
<f27r.10;C>        Sh'FoShiGe2 Mu2 MaGo Ge ShiGe2 KoGo -
<f27r.10;F>        Ba Sh'FoShiGe2 Mu2 MaGo Ge ShiGe2 KoGo -
<f27r.12;C>        
<f27r.12;F>        FeFa KoGa2y3 Me4 FeMa ChiGo KoGay -
<f27r.12a;C>       KoGa2y Fe2Shi2Go3 Ge2 ChiGo2 FoShiFay -
<f27r.12a;F>       KoGa2y Fe2Shi2Go3 Ge2 ChiGo2 FoShiFay -
<f27r.13;C>        FoShiFeKoGo3 =
<f27r.13;F>        FoShiFeKoGo3 =

# Currier's language B, hand 2
# herbal
<f40r>
<f40r.1;C>         Shi3Ge2 Shi2Fo2KoMay FayKoGoKoGo -Sh'FoShi2Go FoShi2Fay KuGo
FoFaShi2Ko2Go FoShi3Me2 May FoMa KoGa3y -
<f40r.1;F>         Shi3Ge2 Shi2Fo2KoMay FayKoGoKoGo -Sh'FoShi2Go FoShi2Fay KuGo
FoFaShi2Ko2Go FoShi3Me2 May FoMaKoGa3y -
<f40r.2;C>         Sh'FoShi2May FoShi2May FoShi2Ko2Go KoMay -GoShi2Ge2 Shi2Ga3y
FoShi2FoMa Ke2Go FoShi2May MayFayFoMa -
<f40r.2;F>         Sh'FoShi2May FoShi2May FoShi2Ko2Go KoMay -GoShi2Ge2 Shi2Ga3y
FoShi2May Ke2Go FoShi2May MayFayFoMa -
<f40r.3;C>         Gu Sh'FoShi2Fay KeGo HeChi2Ko -FoShiFoMa Ma3y FoShi2Go
FoShi2FoFaGe Sh'FoShi2May FoShi2Bay -
<f40r.3;F>         Gu Sh'FoShi2Fay KeGo HeChi2Ko -FoShiFoMa Ma3y FoShi2Go
FoShi2FoFaGe Sh'FoShi2May FoShi2Bay -
<f40r.4;C>         FoMa Ga3y He2Shi2FoKoGo KoMay -Sh'FoShi2FoFa FoShi2Ga3y
FoShi2May FoShi2Go FoShi2FoFaKoGo FoFa -
<f40r.4;F>         FoMa Ga3y He2Shi2FoKoGo KoAy -Ma Sh'FoShi2FoFa FoShi2Ga3y
FoShi2May FoShi2Go FoShi2FoFaKoGo FoFa -
<f40r.5;C>         FaFoShi2May Sh'FoShi2May FoShi2May -FoShi2FoFa FoFa Ke2Go
Sh'FoShi2Ke May May FoMa KoBay -
<f40r.5;F>         FaFoShi2May Sh'FoShi2May FoShi2May -FoShi2FoFa FoFa Ke2Go
Sh'FoShi2Ke May May FoMa KoBay -
<f40r.6;C>         ShiFoMa FoMa May FuShi2 FoMa Bay FoFaWuKoGo Sh'FoShi2Bay KeGo
Shi2May FoMaGa3y -
<f40r.6;F>         ShiFoMa FoMa May FuShi2FoMaBay FoFaKu2Go Sh'FoShi2Ba2y KeGo
Shi2May FoMaGa3y -
<f40r.7;C>         GoGa3y He2Shi2Ga3y FoShi2Go GoGe4 =
<f40r.7;F>         GoGa3y He2Shi2Ga3y FoShi2Go GoGe4 =
<f40r.8;C>         Fu2 Shi2Go4 KoMay Ba2y -Shi2Fe2 Chi4KoGo FoMaGa2y He2Shi4Fay
KoGa3y KoBo -
<f40r.8;F>         Shi2Fu2 Shi2He2Go KoMay Ba2y -Shi2Fe2 Chi4KoGo FoMaGa2y
He2Shi4Fay KoGa3y Ko -
<f40r.9;C>         ShiGa3y Fay FoFaGa3y May -KoGa2y FoShi2Ga3y FoShi2Ga3y FoShi2Ga3y
KoMayBay -
<f40r.9;F>         Ba ShiGa3y FoFa FoFaGa3y FoMa -KoGa2y FoShi2Ga3y FoShi2Ga3y
FoShi2Ga3y KoMayBay -
<f40r.10;C>        MaGa3y FoFaGe4 KeGo -KoGa2y GoGe2 Shi2MayMay FoShi2Go
GoShi2Ko2Go FoShi2Ma2y KoGo -
<f40r.10;F>        MaGa3y FoFaGe4 KeGo -GoGe2 Shi2BayMay FoShi2Go GoShi2Ko2Go
FoShi2Ma2y FoKoGo -
<f40r.11;C>        ShiFoMay GoShi2Ga3y FoMaGo KoFay =
<f40r.11;F>        ShiFoMay GoShi2Ga3y FoMaGo KoFay =
#


<f67r1.S;C>        {Sectors of the circle, clockwise, starting from the North}
<f67r1.S.1;C>      FoShiFayKoGo
<f67r1.S.2;C>      FoShiFoShi2Go
<f67r1.S.3;C>      MaGo3May
<f67r1.S.4;C>      GoShi2May MayGo
<f67r1.S.5;C>      MaFoMaGa2yMa
<f67r1.S.6;C>      FoShiGo3 KoMay
<f67r1.S.7;C>      GoShiFoKoMa3y
<f67r1.S.8;C>      Fu2MaKay
<f67r1.S.9;C>      GoShi2Fo3KoGo
<f67r1.S.10;C>     FoShi2Fo2Fa MaFay
<f67r1.S.11;C>     FoShi2Go3 MaMay
<f67r1.S.12;C>     KoFayMayGo

# The stars,  read in row from left to right across the page, and from top
# to bottom (i.e. normal reading order)
#
<f68r2.S1.1;R>     FoShiFoFaHeShiGo2
<f68r2.S2.1;R>     Fe2MaFoFa
<f68r2.S3.1;R>     FoKoMa3y
<f68r2.S4.1;R>     FoFeMaGo
#
<f68r2.S4.1;R>     KuMay
<f68r2.S5.1;R>     KoFeFa
<f68r2.S6.1;R>     Fo3KoMayAyII*Go
<f68r2.S7.1;R>     FoFaHe2Go4
#
<f68r2.S8.1;R>     FoShi2FeMa
#
<f68r2.S9.1;R>     FoShiFo2*Fa
<f68r2.S10.1;R>    FoGoKoGe
#
<f68r2.S11.1;R>    FeKoMay
<f68r2.S12.1;R>    FoShi2Fo4KoGo
#
<f68r2.S13.1;R>    KoFe2FaKoGo
<f68r2.S14.1;R>    FoShiWo3Ma3
#
<f68r2.S15.1;R>    FoShiFoFo3
#
<f68r2.S16.1;R>    FoShi4Fe2KoGo
<f68r2.S17.1;R>    FoShiFe2KoMay
<f68r2.S18.1;R>    FoKoMa4
<f68r2.S19.1;R>    FeFa
#
<f68r2.S20.1;R>    FoShi3FoChi3FoMa
<f68r2.S21.1;R>    FoShiFoFuMa
<f68r2.S22.1;R>    FeKoMay
#
<f68r2.S23.1;R>    WuGe


<f70v2.C;C>        {Central star}
<f70v2.C.1;C>      FoShiMaFay

<f70v2.S1.1;C>     FoShiGo *KoGo
<f70v2.15Ay;K>      FoShi2Go FoKoGo
<f70v2.S1.2;C>     FoShiGo Goy
<f70v2.16Ay;K>      FoShiGo May
<f70v2.S1.3;C>     FoShi2FayGo
<f70v2.17Ay;K>      FoShi2FayAy
<f70v2.S1.4;C>     FoShiFoKoGo
<f70v2.18Ay;K>      FoShiFoKoGo
<f70v2.S1.5;C>     FoShiGoFaKo
<f70v2.19Ay;K>      FoShiFayKo
<f70v2.S1.6;C>     FoShiFayKoMay
<f70v2.20Ay;K>      FoShiFayKoMay
<f70v2.S1.7;C>     FoShi2FoKoGo
<f70v2.21Ay;K>      FoShi2BoyGo
<f70v2.S1.8;C>     FoShi3GoMaKay
<f70v2.22Ay;K>      FoShiGoMaBay
<f70v2.S1.9;C>     He2Shi2Go3
<f70v2.23Ay;K>      HeChi2Go2
<f70v2.S1.10;C>    FoShiFayGo
<f70v2.24Ay;K>      FoShiFayGo
<f70v2.S1.11;C>    FoShiFay MayMay
<f70v2.25Ay;K>      FoShiFay MayMay
<f70v2.S1.12;C>    FoShiFayKoGo
<f70v2.26Ay;K>      FoShiFayKoGo
<f70v2.S1.13;C>    FoShi2Fo2FaGo
<f70v2.27Ay;K>      FoShi2Fo2FaGo
<f70v2.S1.14;C>    FoShi2GoKoGo
<f70v2.28Ay;K>      FoShi2GoKoGo
<f70v2.S1.15;C>    FoShi2Wo2Ma
<f70v2.29Ay;K>      FoShi2Mo3
<f70v2.S1.16;C>    FoShi3FayKoyKa
<f70v2.11Ay;K>      FoShiFayFayBo
<f70v2.S1.17;C>    FoShi2MayGo
<f70v2.12Ay;K>      GoShi2MayGo
<f70v2.S1.18;C>    FoShiMay
<f70v2.13Ay;K>      FoShiMay
<f70v2.S1.19;C>    FoShiGo
<f70v2.14Ay;K>      FoShiGo

<f70v2.S2.1;C>     GoShi2FoFaGa3y
<f70v2.10Ay;K>      GoShi2FoFaGa3y
<f70v2.S2.2;C>     FoShiMay Kay
<f70v2.01Ay;K>      FoShiMay Bay
<f70v2.S2.3;C>     FoShiFayFay
<f70v2.02Ay;K>      FoShiMay Fay
<f70v2.S2.4;C>     FoShiFayMay
<f70v2.03Ay;K>      FoShiFay May
<f70v2.S2.5;C>     FoShiFayKay
<f70v2.04Ay;K>      FoShiFay Bay
<f70v2.S2.6;C>     KoFoFaMayKay
<f70v2.05Ay;K>      KoFoFaMayBay
<f70v2.S2.7;C>     FoShi2MayKay
<f70v2.06Ay;K>      FoShi2MayBay
<f70v2.S2.8;C>     FoShiFo2MaFay
<f70v2.07Ay;K>      FoShiFo2MaFay
<f70v2.S2.9;C>     MaFayFoFaMa
<f70v2.08Ay;K>      MaFayFoFaMa
<f70v2.S2.10;C>    FoShi2FayKoFay
<f70v2.09Ay;K>      FoShi2Fay KoFay
#
# page 136
# folio  70v1
# Aries (dark)
<f70v1> {not transcribed}
<f70v1.01Ay;K>      FoShi2FoFaGo
<f70v1.02Ay;K>      FoShiFayGa3y
<f70v1.03Ay;K>      FoShiFo2 FayFoFaMa MayFayGo
<f70v1.04Ay;K>      FoShiFoFoGo3 FoShiFay FoShi2WoFayMay
<f70v1.05Ay;K>      FoShiMayo MayGoyKoGo
<f70v1.06Ay;K>      FoShiFayGe ShiMay Bay BoGo
<f70v1.07Ay;K>      FoShi3Ge2 MaFay
<f70v1.08Ay;K>      FoShiShiy2Ba2yGay
<f70v1.09Ay;K>      FoShi2FayFay
<f70v1.10Ay;K>      FoShiFayGo
<f70v1.11Ay;K>      FoFayBe2
<f70v1.12Ay;K>      FoShiFeKoFayMa
<f70v1.13Ay;K>      FoShi2FoFaGu
<f70v1.14Ay;K>      FoShiWuKuGo
<f70v1.15Ay;K>      FoShiFay GoShi3MayuFay
#
# page 137
# folio  71r
# Aries (light)
<f71r>
<f71r.01Ay;K>       FoShiFoFaKeGo
<f71r.02Ay;K>       FoShiFoFaFoMayBay
<f71r.03Ay;K>       FoShiWo*FoFa
<f71r.04Ay;K>       FoShiFoFaKe
<f71r.05Ay;K>       FoShiFayBoMay
<f71r.06Ay;K>       FoShiFo2MaMayMay
<f71r.07Ay;K>       FoShi2FaKoBay
<f71r.08Ay;K>       FoShiFo2FayKoGo
<f71r.09Ay;K>       FoShiFo2FaMay
<f71r.10Ay;K>       FoShi2Fo2FayGo
<f71r.11Ay;K>       FoShiFayWoShi2Go
<f71r.12Ay;K>       FoShi3FayMaMay
<f71r.13Ay;K>       Maye2Go
<f71r.14Ay;K>       FoShiFo2 ShiGo2 MaMayGo
<f71r.15Ay;K>       FoShiFayFayGo

<f71v.S1.1;C>      Maye FoMaFoFa
<f71v.S1.2;C>      HeShi3FayGo
<f71v.S1.3;C>      FoShi2FoFaMay
<f71v.S1.4;C>      FoShiFeKoGo
<f71v.S1.5;C>      FoFaChi3Go
<f71v.S1.6;C>      FoShiGa3y
<f71v.S1.7;C>      FoShi2MayGa3y
<f71v.S1.8;C>      *Shi2May MayFayGo
<f71v.S1.9;C>      FoShi3FayMay Bay KoGa3
<f71v.S1.10;C>     FoShi3FayFoMaMay
#
<f71v.S2;C>        {Inner ring of names}
# Transcription starting at 10 o'clock, going clockwise
<f71v.S2.1;C>      FoShi3AyWoShi3FoBa
<f71v.01Ay;K>       FoShi4Ay*Shi4FoBa
<f71v.S2.2;C>      FoShiFayFoKoGo
<f71v.02Ay;K>       FoShiFayFoKoGo
<f71v.S2.3;C>      FoShiFayGa3y
<f71v.03Ay;K>       FoShiFayGa3y
<f71v.S2.4;C>      FoShiMay FuMa
<f71v.04Ay;K>       FoShiMay Mayu
<f71v.S2.5;C>      FuFaKuGo
<f71v.05Ay;K>       FuFaBuGo
#
<f71v.06Ay;K>       Maye FoMaFoKa
<f71v.07Ay;K>       HeShi4FayGo
<f71v.08Ay;K>       FoShi2FoFaMay
<f71v.09Ay;K>       FoShiFeKoGo
<f71v.10Ay;K>       FayChi3Go
<f71v.11Ay;K>       FoShiGa3y
<f71v.12Ay;K>       FoShi2MayGa3y
<f71v.13Ay;K>       FoShiMay May FayGo
<f71v.14Ay;K>       FoShi3FayMay Bay BoGay
<f71v.15Ay;K>       FoShi3FayMay May
#
# page 139
# folio  72r1
# Taurus (dark)
<f72r1>
<f72r1.01Ay;K>      FoShi4MayFayMay
<f72r1.02Ay;K>      FoShiFeGu
<f72r1.03Ay;K>      FoShiKeFay
<f72r1.04Ay;K>      FoShi2Go3 MayGo
<f72r1.05Ay;K>      FoShiGa2yGo
<f72r1.06Ay;K>      FoFuKo[Ay|Fo]KoGo
<f72r1.07Ay;K>      KeMa3y KoGa2yGo
<f72r1.08Ay;K>      FoGa3y May MayGo
<f72r1.09Ay;K>      FoShi2FayBay
<f72r1.10Ay;K>      GoShiFayKuGo
<f72r1.11Ay;K>      Maye FayIShi4
<f72r1.12Ay;K>      FoShiMayFayKoGo
<f72r1.13Ay;K>      FoShiGa3y FoShiGa2y
<f72r1.14Ay;K>      FoShiFayWoShi4 GoMa Ga2yBay
<f72r1.15Ay;K>      FoFeFaMayuBay
#
# page 140
# folio  72r2
# Gemini
<f72r2>
<f72r2.01Ay;K>      FoShiFay
<f72r2.02Ay;K>      MaFayFay
<f72r2.03Ay;K>      FoShi2Bay
<f72r2.04Ay;K>      FoShiFayGu
<f72r2.05Ay;K>      FoShi2Fay KoGo
<f72r2.06Ay;K>      FeMaMay
<f72r2.07Ay;K>      FoShiBay
<f72r2.08Ay;K>      Ga2yFayGo {AyIDAyHe9? -- parts of N well separated}
<f72r2.09Ay;K>      FoShi2MayHeAy[Ka|Bo]
<f72r2.10Ay;K>      FoShiMayFayBoGo
<f72r2.11Ay;K>      FoShi2FayMay
<f72r2.12Ay;K>      FoShi2Fay
<f72r2.13Ay;K>      FoShi2FayGo
<f72r2.14Ay;K>      FoShi2Fay
<f72r2.15Ay;K>      FoShi2Go3 MayGo
<f72r2.16Ay;K>      FoShiWo2MayGo
<f72r2.17Ay;K>      FoShi2Ma2y BoGo
<f72r2.18Ay;K>      FoShi2Ma2y Baye
<f72r2.19Ay;K>      FoShi2WoFay
<f72r2.20Ay;K>      FoShiMayWoMa
<f72r2.21Ay;K>      FoShi2FayGo
<f72r2.22Ay;K>      FoGaMayGo
<f72r2.24Ay;K>      FoShi2GoKo
<f72r2.25Ay;K>      FoShiFoFaBay
<f72r2.26Ay;K>      FoShi4KeAy[Bo|Ka]Go
<f72r2.27Ay;K>      FoShi2FaMa2yBoGo
<f72r2.28Ay;K>      FoShi2MayBay
<f72r2.29Ay;K>      FoShi2Ma2yGo
<f72r2.30Ay;K>      FoShi2WoFayMay



------------26E618173C380--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar  2 20:11:01 1997
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Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
> Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
> eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
> surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
> hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
> tuir ordem o hili.
> 
> What do you think?


For some reason it reminds me of the Lord's Prayer - Tolkien style. In
HIGHLY modified Latin or Greek.

Illuminate

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar  2 22:08:02 1997
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Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
Status: OR

Illuminate notes:

>Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
>> Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
> Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
> eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
> surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
> hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
> tuir ordem o hili.
> 
> What do you think?


>For some reason it reminds me of the Lord's Prayer - Tolkien style. In
HIGHLY modified Latin or Greek.<

This bears no resemblance that I can see to Latin, Greek, or any Tolkien
language. With the obvious exception of "eleisaun", which of course puts you
in mind of Greek _eleison_, 'have mercy'.

It does look like a language, though, though no language I ever saw. But
certainly a language of the Austronesian phylum seems an obvious possibility.
- Could an Enochian expert comment?

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar  3 02:53:01 1997
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Dear all:
Bruce Grant offered an:
> off-the-wall theory:
> 4o is a variant of the gallows letter P (Currier translit.)

How about off-the wall theory # 42:

many of the label words are Arabic names, which, to the copyist if the VMs
were considered heretic. He occasionally preceded them in the body of
the text by the sign of a  cross (the infamous 4) in order to ward off the
(to him) evil spirits.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar  3 03:14:02 1997
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Jacques tests us:
> Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
> Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
> eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
> surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
> hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
> tuir ordem o hili.

> What do you think?

At a first guess: all the -aun's -in's and -ir's
gives me a feeling I am looking at a 'liberal' transcription
of a piece of the Voynich Manuscript. Maybe using a
scheme not much different from John Groves' but
replacing the tone indication by a wider choice of consonants...

But, knowing Jacques a little bit, it could just as well be some
hitherto unknown language in polynesia with an unexplained
influence of Portugese...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar  3 02:20:01 1997
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RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Illuminate notes:
> 
> >Jacques Guy wrote:
> >
> >> Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
> > Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
> > eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
> > surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
> > hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
> > tuir ordem o hili.
> >
> > What do you think?
> 
> >For some reason it reminds me of the Lord's Prayer - Tolkien style. In
> HIGHLY modified Latin or Greek.<
> 
> This bears no resemblance that I can see to Latin, Greek, or any Tolkien
> language. With the obvious exception of "eleisaun", which of course puts you
> in mind of Greek _eleison_, 'have mercy'.
> 
> It does look like a language, though, though no language I ever saw. But
> certainly a language of the Austronesian phylum seems an obvious possibility.
> - Could an Enochian expert comment?
> 
> Bob Richmond
> Samurai Pathologist
> Knoxville TN


Of course I did not SAY it was Latin or Greek or Tolkien - just that it
REMINDS me of them. To be honest my first thot from seeing just the
email title "OIN SA TUIR" was Keltic of some kind. But it is obviously
NOT one of those.

As for Latin or Greek I was thinking substitution cipher: fatin = latin,
o = ho, eleisaun = elysian. Even clipt Latin: hili = nihil, numero,
ordem.

Other words now remind me of Hebrew: o = w- (and), ha- (the) -konu
-kerek -karak -ktuir (-?). But my Hebrew is very minimal.

If I had to guess only once more I would say that it is an artificial
language based on Indo-European and Semitic roots.

Illuminate

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar  3 09:38:04 1997
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    Denis Mardle writes:



 > I have scanned by eye the limited Zodiac pages of the VMs that I have
 > and cannot see ANY 4O's  Is this true of all the pages we have ? Perhaps
 > they are all in Arabic and heretical, but then all other labels ( but
not
 > text ) would have to be the same and all stars ought to have the 4 as
 > first character.  Names of most Arabic stars are likely to start AL.
 > The commonest label starter appears to be O

In fact, usually they start OF- or OP-, and the remainder is often
very short, while duplicate names are found from time to time.
I don't think I ever saw 4O- as a label. In the body one may
have both O- and 4O-, and they are mixed apparently arbitrarily.
Much has been suggested about this in the past, and here the mail
archive holds some interesting ideas.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar  3 09:14:02 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: re 4O's , heretics and the Zodiac
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    From Denis V Mardle   3 March 1997    ( seealso labels and 4O's )


<<<<Bruce Grant offered an:
> off-the-wall theory:
> 4o is a variant of the gallows letter P (Currier translit.)>>>>

Rene says

<<<How about off-the wall theory # 42:

<many of the label words are Arabic names, which, to the copyist if the VMs
<were considered heretic. He occasionally preceded them in the body of
<the text by the sign of a  cross (the infamous 4) in order to ward off the
<(to him) evil spirits.   >>>>>>

 I have scanned by eye the limited Zodiac pages of the VMs that I have and
cannot see ANY 4O's  Is this true of all the pages we have ? Perhaps they are
all in Arabic and heretical, but then all other labels ( but not text ) would have to 
be the same and all stars ought to have the 4 as first character.  Names of most
Arabic stars are likely to start AL.  The commonest label starter appears to be O

Denis

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From: firthr@db.erau.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
Status: OR


> Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
> Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
> eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
> surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
> hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
> tuir ordem o hili.

Since we're in wild guess mode, my wild guess is that
this is a pretend attempt at romanising the Easter
Island "rongo-rongo" script.  Final -k doesn't fit,
unless it stands for a stop of some kind, but the
rest looks more Polynesian than anything else.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar  2 16:02:02 1997
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Subject: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
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Status: OR

Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
tuir ordem o hili.

What do you think?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar  3 22:38:02 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: sulla@globaldialog.com (M. Sulla)
Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
Status: OR

>> Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
>> Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
>> eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
>> surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
>> hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
>> tuir ordem o hili.
>
Note /numero/ and /ordem/  in the last line (romance influence).   It also
looks like an article /o/, somewhat like greek:  quite greeky.

 Without resorting to a library, I would guess basque or maltese.

mark s.

sulla@globaldialog.com

rura cano rurisque deos.          --Tibullus


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar  4 02:26:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 00:10:29 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
To: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Status: OR

Don, 

That lengthy recital of my notes to the group had my attention until I
reread them.  When I wrote them I was worried that I was being too
arrogant, or even worse, ivory-towerist.  Maybe it is just me, but I felt I
expressed my purpose and sentiment in the matter quite succinctly.  Thank
you for reviewing (in order) my responses.  I feel much better now.

> Rayman: I'd love to have a copy. I think you should just put it out to
the list. Remember, relief is just a delete away...

The VSG list has opened up several avenues of release, although it has not
allowed me as yet the amount of space I am asking for.  I currently have
two possibilities of space, and I am pursuing them most vehemently.

I have also sent photocopies to Jim Reeds and Denis Mardle, and the truth
is that since I chose them for their expertise and interest, I would like
to give them a week or so with those copies before I do any other mailings.
 I believe these men demonstrate a modicum of understanding in this area of
research, and I think it only right that they be allowed to study the
material before multiple discussions begin.  It is no secret that
discussions within the VSG can demonstrate an abnormal variance from the
mean of the presentation, if you understand my meaning.

In addition to Jim Reeds and Denis Mardle, I have promised an e-mail copy
to Gabriel Landini, primarily for his support and mostly because he is such
a kind hearted soul when it comes to dealing with highly frustrated and
slightly mad (mostly mad) fools such as myself.  The e-mail idea was
Gabriel's, and even though it was staring me in the face, it had no numbers
attached to it.  Otherwise I would have seen it sooner.  (This is my excuse
and I am sticking to it, so don't push it!!!)

Gabriel's idea is a wonderful idea, and would certainly circumvent any
objections from group members, such as the one I received from Frogguy.  It
was never my intention to deluge the group with unwanted e-mail, rather it
was my intention to seek out interested parties.  There are so many
conversations going on in this group, and I certainly wouldn't want to
interfere with anyone's attempt to pronounce the Voynich!

Let us take this idea of Gabriel's a step further, and see how it plays. 
Don, why don't you compile a list of e-mail addresses of those who are
interested, or they can e-mail me just as you did, and I will maintain a
list, whichever you prefer.  I will complete my special e-mail to Gabriel
as I promised, which will give us an idea of time and effort involved, and
from that point I can e-mail the documents to all interested parties on the
list.  This effort is probably a week's worth, but well worth it by my
accounting.  Do you agree?

As a marginal note, one of the reasons that I am willing to hold off on a
mass e-mailing is that I have only formed a rudimentary index to the notes
to date,
and I was hoping for feedback from Jim Reeds and Denis Mardle on what they
considered a consistent indexing scheme.  Without an indexing scheme the
conversations would be hard to follow, and if my preliminary indexing
scheme fell short of the study there would be confusion as to "what goes
where, and what follows what".  After 11 years of research I have no
problem delaying the study for a short time on one minor point.

Let us just offer the idea to the group - should you wish a copy of
Strong's notes when they become available for e-mail, please send an e-mail
to madimi@internetMCI.COM, and I will save your e-mail address in a special
file for mailing.  The moment a suitable index is established the work will
be available.

Don, since I seem to lack the talents of PR work, perhaps you can stimulate
interest somewhat.


Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar  4 03:14:02 1997
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From: Dean Gahlon <dean@visi.com>
Posted-Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 02:09:34 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199703040809.CAA09908@bambi.visi.com>
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
To: madimi@internetmci.com (rmalek)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 02:09:33 -0600 (CST)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <01IG36NHD68M8WW11A@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> from "rmalek" at Mar 4, 97 00:10:29 am
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> Let us just offer the idea to the group - should you wish a copy of
> Strong's notes when they become available for e-mail, please send an e-mail
> to madimi@internetMCI.COM, and I will save your e-mail address in a special
> file for mailing.  The moment a suitable index is established the work will
> be available.

What amount of data is involved here? Are you talking 5K of data, 5meg, or
somewhere in between?  I'm probably interested, (as I would suspect
most members of the list would be), but the size is something of a
determining factor. 

Dean Gahlon
dean@visi.com

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar  4 09:32:03 1997
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Subject: Sources on astrology?
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Dear all,

in one of my web searches I stumbled upon something called
'project hindsight' (http://projhind.com). This project aims at
translating  into English  *all* existing works on
astrology, from the beginning of mankind to, say, the renaissance.
Apparently, quite a few Greek and Latin works are already
available and the prices seem not too unreasonable.
Has anybody ever dealt with them (e.g. ordered a book)?
Any good/bad experiences? I can recommend those
interested in ancient astronomy/astrology to have a look.....

Thanks for any hints,
          Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar  4 10:05:47 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:46:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
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Status: OR

On  3 Mar 97 at 21:31, M. Sulla wrote:


> >> hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
> >> tuir ordem o hili.
> >
> Note /numero/ and /ordem/  in the last line (romance influence).  
I would rather say portuguese.

I do not want to disrupt this thread, but...
what is this then (probably too easy):

.i mi fi do ca cusku doi pendo fe ledu'u mi mu'inai loi cazi li'i
nandu joi se steba cu ca'o pacna da .i da mutce se jicmu le'e merko se
pacna .i mi pacna lenu levi natmi baco'a virnu gi'e tarti tu'a le
fatci smuni be leri kriselsku po'u lu mi xusra ledu'u ledi'e jetnu
si'unai se jimpe .itu'e ro remna cu jikydunli co'a lenu ri se zbasu
li'u .i mi pacna lenu vi le xunre cmama'a be la djordjas. lei se dzena
be loi pu selfu se jibri ponse lei se dzena be loi pu selfu se jibri
baco'a kasyzutla'i le kamcectamne jubme

Cheers Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar  4 10:44:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:39:47 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Oin sa tuir - Austronesian?
Status: OR

>> Oin sa tuir eleisaun iha o nia fatin elaisaun.
>> Surat ne'e iha buat hotu nebe o sei haktuir atu tuir
>> eleisaun iha fatin elaisaun. Atu hili o hakonu o nia
>> surat hakerek I iha fatin oin. Naran ema nebe no
>> hakarak liu atu hili e fo numero ba fatin hotu seluk
>> tuir ordem o hili.

Semitic languages can usually be recognized by some frequent prefixes h- l-
b- k-d- and suffixes -m/n -t -w -y -k -nw etc. There is certainly some
suggestion of that in this text. See one of the popular accounts (such as
Cyrus Gordon's _Forgotten Scripts_ of the decipherment of Ugaritic about
seventy years ago - a language closely allied to Hebrew, written in an
alphabet of about thirty letters impressed with a cuneiform writer's stylus.
- It is unusual for a Semitic language to be written with all its vowels, but
Maltese indeed is fully vocalized.

M. Sulla also mentions Basque, which has a higher proportion of closed
syllables and clusters, and the words are much longer.

I persist in thinking that Voynichese is an Austronesian language, very
possibly one no longer spoken. This language group includes the indigenous
languages of Taiwan/Formosa (where there is a greater variety of them spoken
than anywhere else, suggesting origin here), the Philippines, Indonesia,
Madagascar (!), Melanesia, some of New Guinea, and Polynesia.

(Robert Firth mentioned the still undeciphered (I think) rongo-rongo script
of Easter Island. This Polynesian language is called Rapa Nui by its one or
two thousand remaining speakers.)

There is some highly conserved vocabulary in this family, such as lima
(rima), 'five' or 'hand' which you can find in Hawaiian and Malagasy, for
instance. A search for words from this highly conserved vocabulary would be
worthwhile.

Somebody on this list must know an expert on this language family. I don't.

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar  4 11:20:04 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199703041607.IAA00046@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
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Status: OR

Gabriel says:
> I do not want to disrupt this thread, but...
> what is this then (probably too easy):
> 
> .i mi fi do ca cusku doi pendo fe ledu'u mi mu'inai loi cazi li'i
> nandu joi se steba cu ca'o pacna da .i da mutce se jicmu le'e merko se

Looks like lojban, a dialect of Loglan.  I'd expect the Loglan languages
to have a lower variance in vowel/consonant frequency counts than many
natural languages, because of the rules of word construction.

	Jim Gillogly

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar  4 17:50:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 10:50:40 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
References: <v01540b01af404f8332fb@[155.31.69.251]>
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Status: OR

The language is real. It is Tetum, the main language of
East Timor (hence the Portuguese-sounding words: ordem,
eleisaun). It came in my letterbox, as a pamphlet in
eighteen languages on how to vote at the local elections
(eleisaun was not Greek eleison, but Portuguese eleic,a~o).

I posted it because, to me, at first sight, it looked
like Voynich-like gibberish.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 03:20:01 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:16:57 +0200
Subject: Why Aries and Taurus are represented twice
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Dear all,

One (more) possible reason why the figures of Aries and
Taurus are represented twice in the VMs could be of
alchemical nature. I learned that one of the alchemical
'operations' considered useful by some was the 'harvesting
of thaw'. This was apparently done by spreading pieces of
cloth over a field, which collected the thaw, and subsequently
squeezing it out. This was only done in the two months governed
by Aries and Taurus. I have seen several images from the
17C onwards where this practice is depicted, and Aries and
Taurus are usually (if not always) present in these images.
So two questions to our alchemical experts (provided we have
any):
1) Was this practice also known or exercised before the 17th
Century?
2) Could the best period for this be restricted to two halves
of the signs of Aries and Taurus (e.g. second half of Aries
and first half of Taurus)?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 04:41:01 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:33:06 +0000
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Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
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Status: OR

On  4 Mar 97 at 8:07, Jim Gillogly wrote:
> > what is this then (probably too easy):
> > 
> > .i mi fi do ca cusku doi pendo fe ledu'u mi mu'inai loi cazi li'i
> > nandu joi se steba cu ca'o pacna da .i da mutce se jicmu le'e merko se
> 
> Looks like lojban, a dialect of Loglan.  I'd expect the Loglan languages
> to have a lower variance in vowel/consonant frequency counts than many
> natural languages, because of the rules of word construction.


Yes, lojban. It's the first 3 lines of Martin Luther King's "I have a 
dream".
BTW, is lojban actually "used", or is it a matter of research/ 
human-machine interfacing?

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 09:50:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:42:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
In-Reply-To: <9703050933.AA14453@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
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On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> BTW, is lojban actually "used", or is it a matter of research/ 
> human-machine interfacing?

	Yes, there are actually a few hundred human beings who are
learning it for human communication.  Lojban is partly a test of the
Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, that language determines what it is possible to
think.  Do an Altavista search for more.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 13:23:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:20:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: OIN SA TUIR...
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As a point of order from a Whorf purist, I would have reworded below as
"Lojban is partly a test of Whorf's Linguistic Relativity Principle, which
posits that logic, reason and worldview are built in differently to each
language unless you can show a connection which calibrates the languages
to be similar." The idea of linguistic relativity goes back 400 years, and
it was that philosophical thought which Einstein drew on which allowed him
to legitimize non-euclidean geometries as scientific languages in his own
work on relativity. (Einstein lived in the rooming house of a Humboldtian-
trained linguist while a graduate student in Geneva, one Jost Winteler,
whom Einstein repeatedly in his later years pointed back to as the source
of most of his early inspirations.) It's such a shame that Whorf's
magnificent insights at the intersection of linguistics, modern physics,
and Native American cognition were systematically reduced to a set of
logically winnable arguments in English called the (Sapir-)Whorf
Hypothesis, the major effects of which have been to effectively restrain
graduate students and educated professionals from actually reading Whorf's
insights in the original language (English). Please, not that I'm implying
in any way that this is what Dennis did -- just a general comment about
the history of ideas.

warm regards, moonhawk



On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dennis wrote:

> 	Yes, there are actually a few hundred human beings who are
> learning it for human communication.  Lojban is partly a test of the
> Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, that language determines what it is possible to
> think.  Do an Altavista search for more.  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 13:41:06 1997
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Subject: Re: VMS: Lojban
To: dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu (Dan Moonhawk Alford)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:30:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970305100507.16289B-100000@haywire> from "Dan Moonhawk Alford" at Mar 5, 97 10:20:24 am
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> "Lojban is partly a test of Whorf's Linguistic Relativity Principle, which
> posits that logic, reason and worldview are built in differently to each
> language unless you can show a connection which calibrates the languages
> to be similar." 

Ahh, what a treat to hear about Lojban again. I learned about it when it was
still called Loglan, and actually tried to learn to speak it for a while.
The idea of a language designed on logical principles was very appealing to
me then. I still have my dictionary somewhere...

ObVMS: The thought has crossed my mind more than once that the VMS might be
written in a Lojban-like artificial language created for succinctness in
writing in a particular field or universe of discourse. I suppose from a
cryptographic point of view, this would make it little different from a
code--except that one might be able to make more inferences about
undeciphered portion of an MS than one could of a code deliberately
designed to be obscure.

I suppose the entropy would be higher if this was so, however.
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 16:50:09 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:26:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
cc: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: Lojban
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On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Adams Douglas wrote:

> Ahh, what a treat to hear about Lojban again. I learned about it when it was
> still called Loglan, and actually tried to learn to speak it for a while.
> The idea of a language designed on logical principles was very appealing to
> me then. I still have my dictionary somewhere...

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:

>  The idea of linguistic relativity goes back 400 years,
and
> it was that philosophical thought which Einstein drew on which allowed
him
> to legitimize non-euclidean geometries as scientific languages in his
own
> work on relativity. (Einstein lived in the rooming house of a
Humboldtian-
> trained linguist while a graduate student in Geneva, one Jost Winteler,
> whom Einstein repeatedly in his later years pointed back to as the
source
> of most of his early inspirations.) 

	Dan hints at my own suspicion about Lojban as a test of the Whorf
hypothesis.  The grammar of Loglan/Lojban is that of predicate logic. 
Predicate logic and various other systems of logic and mathematics are not
universal, value-neutral concepts, but are themselves specific languages
-- and very restrictive ones at that. 

Adams also said:

> ObVMS: The thought has crossed my mind more than once that the VMS might be
> written in a Lojban-like artificial language created for succinctness in
> writing in a particular field or universe of discourse. I suppose from a
> cryptographic point of view, this would make it little different from a
> code--except that one might be able to make more inferences about
> undeciphered portion of an MS than one could of a code deliberately
> designed to be obscure.

	M. Sulla, who describes himself as a degreed medievalist, said
something to the effect of: the idea that the VMs is in an artificial
language is totally anachronistic for the 1500's. 
 
> I suppose the entropy would be higher if this was so, however.
> -Adams

	This was also my thought for D'Imperio's favored hypothesis - that
the VMs is in a Jakob Sylvestre-type code.  

Dan also said:

> It's such a shame that Whorf's
> magnificent insights at the intersection of linguistics, modern physics,
> and Native American cognition were systematically reduced to a set of
> logically winnable arguments in English called the (Sapir-)Whorf
> Hypothesis, the major effects of which have been to effectively restrain
> graduate students and educated professionals from actually reading
> Whorf's insights in the original language (English). 

	This sound very interesting. I'd like to hear some references.  

> Please, not that I'm implying
> in any way that this is what Dennis did -- just a general comment about
> the history of ideas.

	Understood.

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 17:05:03 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199703052156.NAA00982@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: Lojban
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Status: OR

Dennis sez:
> 	M. Sulla, who describes himself as a degreed medievalist, said
> something to the effect of: the idea that the VMs is in an artificial
> language is totally anachronistic for the 1500's.

As a degreed computer weenie, I wonder whether Hildegard of Bingen's
Lingua Ignota (12th century) was equally anachronistic.  And how about
the Kelley/Dee angelic language?  I thought John Dalgarno did an a priori
language, but don't recall just when it was, so I won't bring it up...

	Jim Gillogly

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 17:29:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:14:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: Lojban
In-Reply-To: <199703052156.NAA00982@zendia.mentat.com>
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On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Jim Gillogly wrote:

> As a degreed computer weenie, I wonder whether Hildegard of Bingen's
> Lingua Ignota (12th century) was equally anachronistic.  And how about
> the Kelley/Dee angelic language?  I thought John Dalgarno did an a priori
> language, but don't recall just when it was, so I won't bring it up...

Dalgarno is ca 1626 (?) - 1687.  His _Ars Signorum_ was about 1661.

Thomas Urquhart was a shade earlier (1611-1660); his _Logopandecteision_
was 1653.  Lodwick (1619-1694) published in 1647.

Can't remember right now what the earliest example (or discussion) of the
subject was, but Dee is not utterly implausible as a participant.  The
Voynich, however, seems to date from a substantially earlier period.
Something like the lingua ignota is not, it seems, out of the question.

R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 17:53:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 15:39:02 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Strong's notes
To: Dean Gahlon <dean@visi.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> What amount of data is involved here? Are you talking 5K of data, 5meg,
or
> somewhere in between?  I'm probably interested, (as I would suspect
> most members of the list would be), but the size is something of a
> determining factor. 

Alligator has some really good suggestions about reducing the size, but it
may take some time.  Right now the files stand at over 20 
MB of information.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 18:53:03 1997
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My impression (and here I differ with D'Imperio) is that Silvestri's code
was an impractical theoretical proposal, and that actual cryptographic
practice of his era (and for a long time following) was simple nomenclators,
nomenclators, nomenclators.

This is only indirectly connected with the VMS.  Under scenario A, the VMS
author somehow had contact with ordinary 15th century cryptography (maybe
his uncle was the servant of a code clerk, and once brought his nephew to
the office, or maybe after the code clerk went bonkers he wrote the VMS, etc);
under scenario B, the VMS author somehow had contact with a book like 
Silvestri's, expounding a vastly more complex method of cryptography than
was actually practiced.  Just by size of populations of people in a position
to have the right sort of contact, I'd say A is more plausible than B.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 20:17:03 1997
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From: sulla@globaldialog.com (M. Sulla)
Subject: Reply to Jim G.
Status: ORr

>Dennis sez:
>>       M. Sulla, who describes himself as a degreed medievalist, said
>> something to the effect of: the idea that the VMs is in an artificial
>> language is totally anachronistic for the 1500's.
>
>As a degreed computer weenie, I wonder whether Hildegard of Bingen's
>Lingua Ignota (12th century) was equally anachronistic.  And how about
>the Kelley/Dee angelic language?  I thought John Dalgarno did an a priori
>language, but don't recall just when it was, so I won't bring it up...
>
>        Jim Gillogly

Doing research for the VMS, and  on the authority of "The Alphabetic
Labyrinth", by Johanna Drucker, I must restate my perhaps brash statement.

I don't know Hildegard.  I consider Kelley/ Dee Enochian as glossolalia.
George Dalgarno and John Wilkens worked on semantics in the 1660's (too
late), using  Petrus Ramus (1515-1572) as an inspiration.   My
interpretation is that the deep scholastic speculation on language really
starts in the mid-1600s and develops eventually into modern linguistics.

There has been philosophical and theological speculation on language since
the classical grammarians, and the  christian "logos."     Speculation on
the philosophy of language seems to have been  quite common (grammar was a
requisite).  Nevertheless, there is a difference between scholarly
speculation and the development and use of a complex system.

This is all very interesting to me, but I keep looking back and trying to
relate it to the VMS.    If the VMS is an artificial language,  it must be
advanced enough to fill up a book with meaning.  Discounting scholarly
speculation, and speaking in tongues, is there any precedent for a
practical Esperanto type language in the period 1550-1600?

I would like to point out that Porta published De Furtivis Literarum Notis
in 1563 which reflected a tremendous growth in the science of cryptology
right at the time I suspect the VMS was written.

I argue that we should look for a simple and elegant cipher before we start
elaborating complex what-ifs.

If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

Mark S.







sulla@globaldialog.com

rura cano rurisque deos.          --Tibullus


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 21:11:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:01:00 -0500
In-Reply-To: sulla@globaldialog.com (M. Sulla)
        "Reply to Jim G." (Mar  5, 19:02)
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On Mar 5, 19:02, M. Sulla wrote:
 
> This is all very interesting to me, but I keep looking back and trying to
> relate it to the VMS.    If the VMS is an artificial language,  it must be
> advanced enough to fill up a book with meaning.  Discounting scholarly
> speculation, and speaking in tongues, is there any precedent for a
> practical Esperanto type language in the period 1550-1600?

Good point; I agree.  I think Eco's "The Search for the Perfect Language"
(a derivative work, a light read) bears out your chronology.

> I would like to point out that Porta published De Furtivis Literarum Notis
> in 1563 which reflected a tremendous growth in the science of cryptology
> right at the time I suspect the VMS was written.

Indeed, the 1500s were a period of great growth in the science of cryptology,
but why do you suspect the VMS was written then?  (As opposed to 1470, say,
which was Panofsky's guess on the basis of the handwriting?)

> I argue that we should look for a simple and elegant cipher before we start
> elaborating complex what-ifs. 

But then eminent cryptologists would have already solved it!  The ciphers
described by Porta, for example, don't look at all like the VMS.  If the
VMS is a result of the 16th century cryptology progress, the cipher text
would look more random and would have been long since read.

Put another way:  what would this "simple and elegant cipher" be like?

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 23:05:03 1997
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Subject: Re: Reply to Reply to Jim G.
Status: OR


>Indeed, the 1500s were a period of great growth in the science of cryptology,
>but why do you suspect the VMS was written then?  (As opposed to 1470, say,
>which was Panofsky's guess on the basis of the handwriting?)

>From my feel of the times (very subjective), I would expect an educated
person trying to hide something, to put it in a conservative form--
therefore shifting blame to the past and giving the work higher prestige.
My guess is that the VMS was written no more that 50 years before 1608
(first documented existance).


>But then eminent cryptologists would have already solved it!

Ever heard of Michael Ventris?   Authorities are often handicapped by their
own knowledge and prejudice.


>Put another way:  what would this "simple and elegant cipher" be like?

Reverse engineer it.  When I was working on my key, I made a list of the
characteristics of the VMS cipher and I tried to create a system that
emulated it.   My three grid key could emulate the VMS.   Four or five
lines of asynchronous repeating keys forming a table could too. Firth's
alphabet of character groups could too.

The Final Solution will be so simple that you will slap your forehead and
wonder why wasn't that thought of fifty years ago.

 Patiently waiting for Spring,

Mark S.



sulla@globaldialog.com

rura cano rurisque deos.          --Tibullus


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 00:59:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 22:33:18 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Reply to Jim G.
To: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Status: OR

 > This is all very interesting to me, but I keep looking back and trying
to
> > relate it to the VMS.    If the VMS is an artificial language,  it must
be
> > advanced enough to fill up a book with meaning.  Discounting scholarly
> > speculation, and speaking in tongues, is there any precedent for a
> > practical Esperanto type language in the period 1550-1600?
> 
> Good point; I agree.  I think Eco's "The Search for the Perfect Language"
> (a derivative work, a light read) bears out your chronology.

Sorry to jump in on a conversation I was not privy to, but I would like to
add my input here, simply because the conversation is not new to me.  The
fact is that no single person up to this point has offered any valid proof
one way or another as to the origin of the Voynich.  If that event had
actually taken place, we seemed to have all missed it.

> > I would like to point out that Porta published De Furtivis Literarum
Notis
> > in 1563 which reflected a tremendous growth in the science of
cryptology
> > right at the time I suspect the VMS was written.

Whoever wrote this statement, I would like to add to it my agreement and
support.  Even more was published on this science before Porta's
publication of De Furtivis Literarum Notis, and the fact that not enough
was published for the layman to fully understand its significance lies in
the fact that cryptography fell into the realm of "state secrets" back
then, much as it falls under "munitions" laws now.  

> Indeed, the 1500s were a period of great growth in the science of
cryptology,
> but why do you suspect the VMS was written then?  (As opposed to 1470,
say,
> which was Panofsky's guess on the basis of the handwriting?)

According to D'Imperio, the manuscript by her best guess was 1500 and no
later than 1550.  Hugh O'Neill and others identified New-World plants that
were not present in Europe until after 1493, and even then not widely
spread in knowledge until 1525 with the release of Bancke's Herbal in the
English press edition.  Some even claim that the decadence of the drawings
could only have sprung from Protestant sources, meaning either German or
English in nature.

> > I argue that we should look for a simple and elegant cipher before we
start
> > elaborating complex what-ifs. 

I am in full agreement with this statement.  The age of computers and
number-crunching has made us all forget what it is to solve a puzzle on our
own.  Whoever made this statement, thank you for the reminder that our
brains should control our machines.

> But then eminent cryptologists would have already solved it!  The ciphers
> described by Porta, for example, don't look at all like the VMS.  If the
> VMS is a result of the 16th century cryptology progress, the cipher text
> would look more random and would have been long since read.

A 16th century architect with enough cipher knowledge could design a system
any way he chose, much like building a house.  There have actually been a
few 20th century examples of this as well.  My explanation of why eminent
cryptologists have not cracked the Voynich is that they have been relying
on the work of others before them, and all that work points them away from
cryptography as the answer.  D'Imperio shows no sign of original research,
as she simply repeats Kahn.  Kahn repeats Friedman and Friedman can only be
weighed by his own unsupported statements, made in the limelight of his
career as a machine cipher expert.  Is this a history of research, or a
history of Friedmanizing all future Voynich research?  Whatever it is it is
not original, and the history shows no original research in the area of
polyalphabetics since Friedman's declamation of the subject in 1947.

My point - you have never been presented with enough information to judge
the facts vice or versa.  It's high time the discussion took place and the
facts were presented.

> Put another way:  what would this "simple and elegant cipher" be like?

If we are to use Strong's preliminary example, we would find the cipher to
be more than a simple one, although elegant in design.  The alphabets would
be numerous, and the method of moving from one to the other would be as
ingenious as the author.  In addition to skipping from one alphabet to the
other, the author would build in a key sequence that allowed him to shift
the alphabet in use to the left or right.  Let's imagine that key sequence
to be 1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-4-7-4.  In addition to this shifting of a single
alphabet, there is a sequence that allows us to shift up and down, probably
denoted by character changes in the text.  We now have movement in all
directions, but when things don't look right in our written cipher we
change the language and spelling to compensate.  (Most college graduates
from this time spoke four languages besides their own, and masters spoke
seven, take your pick.)  Porta never told you about this, and neithe did
Selenus, but they were noted for their reservation when they felt the
information could be used in the wrong manner.  It was assumed by both
authors that educated men could intuit thier meaning.


We are, after all, educated men, are we not?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 00:59:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 22:47:58 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Reply to Reply to Jim G.
To: "M. Sulla" <sulla@globaldialog.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Only after I read one message, do I receive another.  Why aren' t these
things in order?

> The Final Solution will be so simple that you will slap your forehead and
> wonder why wasn't that thought of fifty years ago.
 
>  Patiently waiting for Spring,


The truth, my dear Mark, is that the final solution was realized in 1945,
and your count of 50 years is only off by two at this point.  I admit that
the first time I saw the truth I did actually slap my forehead, and
although the redness has since receded, I wish it had stayed as a reminder.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 01:23:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 22:53:11 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: Strong's notes
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
> Subject: Re: Strong's notes
> Date: Wednesday, March 05, 1997 3:18 PM
> 
> > 	No lack in the PR from you! I don't know how long you've been with the
> > list as I just recently joined it. Some have been working a very long
> > time on their projects and may feel a need to dispel any new ideas
> > quickly - I don't know, but I'm continuing my efforts whether they
prove
> > to be fruitless in the end or not - of course, I hope that I'm heading
> > the right way :-)
> 
> I too an new to the list as a participant, and I joined only because of
my
> discovery of Strong's notes and a few gentle nudgings from group members
to
> make them available.  I have communicated in the past with some of the
more
> prominent group members and my reception has been a cold one, simply
> because of my bent of research and its treatment by former authorities on
> the subject.  Gabriel thinks I am paranoid, but I know I that no one can
> really be paranoid when the world is really out to get you.  Ha!
> 
> > 	Anyways, if you find room to post those files or could send me a few
to
> > get an idea of what Dr. Strong's efforts were - I am new here!
> 
> Sending individual files at this point may not be advisable, as no one
> would then know their sequence.  A brief introduction to Strong's work on
> the subject is that he claimed to have found a polyalphabetic solution to
> the Voynich.  Polyalphabeticity in the Voynich has been all but dismissed
> by just about every expert there is.  Strong was either a genius or a
> crank, and I for one believe him to have been a genius.
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 01:23:03 1997
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From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: Strong's notes
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----------
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: Dean Gahlon <dean@visi.com>
> Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
> Subject: Re: Strong's notes
> Date: Wednesday, March 05, 1997 3:39 PM
> 
> > What amount of data is involved here? Are you talking 5K of data, 5meg,
> or
> > somewhere in between?  I'm probably interested, (as I would suspect
> > most members of the list would be), but the size is something of a
> > determining factor. 
> 
> Alligator has some really good suggestions about reducing the size, but
it
> may take some time.  Right now the files stand at over 20 
> MB of information.
> 
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 03:02:02 1997
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From: jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)
Subject: Re: Reply to Jim G.
Status: OR

>
>We are, after all, educated men, are we not?
no.


-jP


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 05:14:06 1997
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Dear all,

how nice to see the exchange of opinions over the last
24 hours. There were a lot of statements I liked
(for what that's worth) so if I may add my opinions:

Jim reminds us about Panofsky:
> Indeed, the 1500s were a period of great growth in the
> science of cryptology, but why do you suspect the VMS was
> written then?  (As opposed to 1470, say, which was Panofsky's
> guess on the basis of the handwriting?)

I would just like to add that this 1470 is linked with
the country of origin, which he gives as Germany (and this
is his area of expertise). This might include areas like
Bohemia which are now outside Germany. I would say
the origin is more open-ended to the past than to the
future (counted from 1470).  15th C is probably the best
we have. And Germany certainly has produced a lot of
interesting MSS in this period!!

Then Jim's:
> But then eminent cryptologists would have already solved
> it!

Is countered by Rayman and despite my little knowledge in this
area  I would tend to agree with  Rayman, with one main
condition: whereas all attempts seem to trace back to Friedman, we
do not know what exactly he has tried.  The situation is much
the same as with Strong: we cannot judge Friedman's failure
to solve the VMs as long as we do not know what he has tried.
Simply having a list like:
1) Tried X and it failed because Y
2) Z could never work because of A
would help us enormously. I am sure fragments of such a list
exist in the minds of the group's cryptographers, and I wonder
if there should be an effort in this group to compile it
and add to it.
Was Friedman a brilliant cryptographer? I'm sure he was.
Was he an expert in M.E. cryptography? No idea, probably
still better than most. But since I do believe D'Imperio,
many more people independent of Friedman have tried and failed.
Also they did not make a list as above.

Then Jim and Mark:

>> Put another way:  what would this "simple and elegant cipher"
>> be like?

> The Final Solution will be so simple that you will slap your
> forehead and wonder why wasn't that thought of fifty years ago.

I share this sentiment, but have nothing to support it (and I
guess for Mark it is also not much more than a 'gut feeling').
I am sure ciphers can be generated at will that are
relatively simple to use with the key, and virtually impossible
without. Simply because they may be so illogical to us.
Here we may even use Friedman: one of the prerequisites
of breaking a code is knowing the plaintext language. We simply
do not know, and it could well be that even if we did, it would
not help much (Etruscan is a bad example, but it may serve).
And to also refer to Eco: young Adso of Melk was disturbed by
a book containing just 'worms and fly droppings'. Imagine him
put to task to transcribe this into a secret alphabet. We may
well be confronted with such a problem.

I would say (and I think Rayman said as much) that Strong's
(i.e. Askham's) method cannot be qualified as 'simple' by any
stretch of the imagination. The example in his mail:

> In addition to skipping from one alphabet to the other, the
> author would build in a key sequence that allowed him to shift
> the alphabet in use to the left or right..(skip)..In addition to
> this shifting of a single alphabet, there is a sequence that
> allows us to shift up and down, probably denoted by character
> changes in the text.

would amount to two polyalphabetic subsitutions superimposed,
one cyclic, one not.

As far as artificial languages are concerned: the example
of Hildegarde's Lingua Ignota shows that we have to distinguish
between plain old invented languages and cleverly designed
artificial languages with some special properties. Friedman
and Tiltman liked the latter, because of the root-suffix
structure. Now this structure does not hold very well
thoughout the Ms, so a plain-old invented language (i.e.
a date well prior to the 16C) is also possible...

I guess that's enough for now. Spring seems to have
started here....

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 04:53:05 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
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On  5 Mar 97 at 13:56, Jim Gillogly wrote:

> As a degreed computer weenie, I wonder whether Hildegard of Bingen's
> Lingua Ignota (12th century) was equally anachronistic.  And how about
> the Kelley/Dee angelic language?  I thought John Dalgarno did an a priori
> language, but don't recall just when it was, so I won't bring it up...

In D'Imperio there are the dates of some artificial languages. 
Apparently these are the dates of publication of the descriptions, 
but they may have been in use before that.

Arithmeticus nomenclator (anonymous Spanish Jesuit, 1653) 
Wilkins' (1641) 
Dalgarno's (1661) 
Beck's "Universal Character" (1657) 
Johnston's "Synthetic Language" (1641)  


Cheers,
Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 08:47:08 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Jim Reed about Umberto Eco
Status: ORr

>Good point; I agree.  I think Eco's "The Search for the Perfect Language"
(a derivative work, a light read) bears out your chronology.<

Humberto Eco (I tried to read "The Name of the Rose", too) wrote "The Search
for the Perfect Language". I've been meaning to post a note about it, but I
mislaid my copy.

I think it's unfair to categorize this work as entirely derivative. Eco has
been collecting "constructed languages" - the generic name for developments
as diverse as Esperanto, Klingon, and Lojban - for a long time, and some of
the information he presents is not generally accessible, at least to me. I
think the book is worthwhile for people on this list. I just bought it last
summer, and it's probably still in print.

It seems to me that basically there are three basic types of constructed
languages: philosophical languages (Ars Magna, Real Character, Lojban), world
auxiliary languages (Volapu"k, Esperanto, Interlingua), and literary
languages (Elvish, Klingon). It seems to me unlikely though not impossible
that Voynichese is a constructed language. There's a constructed languages
site on the Web.

Bob Richmond

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 09:02:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:53:11 -0500
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        "Jim Reed about Umberto Eco" (Mar  6,  8:37)
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On receiving Bob Richmond's letter I took another glance at Eco's book.
I take back what I said.  Eco's book gathers together lots of material,
provides summaries, shows connections; much of which I had not seen before.

Thanks for the correction, Bob.


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 09:47:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:36:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: "Spontaneous" Artifical Languages
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On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:

> It seems to me that basically there are three basic types of constructed
> languages: philosophical languages (Ars Magna, Real Character, Lojban), world
> auxiliary languages (Volapu"k, Esperanto, Interlingua), and literary
> languages (Elvish, Klingon). It seems to me unlikely though not impossible
> that Voynichese is a constructed language. There's a constructed languages
> site on the Web.

	I think that there is a fourth class, that I'll call spontaneous
artificial languages.  

	Jacques Guy has mentioned the "Martian" language of Helene Smith,
around 1900.  Here's the original source for it:

    Theodore Flournoy, *Des Indes a la Planete Mars: Etude sur un cas de
somnambulisme avec glossolalie, avec une introduction d'Helene Boursinhac. 
(From the Indies to the Planet Mars: A Study of a Case of Somnambulism
with Glossalia, with an introduction by Helene Boursinhac.)* (Slatkine
Reprints, Geneve-Paris, 1983.) (Reimpression de l'edition de Geneve, 1899. 
Reprint of the Geneva edition of 1899.)  ISBN 2-05-100499-4. 

	The preface has references to recent work on glossalalia that look
interesting. 

	I don't know of anything in English on this.  Helene Smith
produced her Martian language under hypnosis.  It corresponded
word-for-word with modern French; the "Martian" words tended to look like
simplified, "baby-talk" versions of related French words, as I recall.
This fact was what decided Flournoy that her productions were not actual
communications with the physical planet Mars.  

	The important points are:

	1)  Her Martian language was a spontaneous, unconscious
production, not a deliberate, reasoned fabrication. 

	2)  However, it was meaningful, a sort of pidgin language, and not
gibberish. 

	The samples of Hildegard of Bingen's lingua ignota that D'Imperio
has look like this to me.

	I've always wondered whether Enochian wasn't the same thing, that
it may not have been a conscious fraud by Kelley, but an unconscious
production.  Jacques Guy once said that Don Laycock, who published an
Enochian dictionary, privately expressed the opinion that Enochian was a
mix of distorted Latin, Greek, and Hebrew words.  The Enochian characters
look like distorted and rotated Latin characters, not nearly as creative
as Voynichese.

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 09:47:03 1997
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Status: OR


Folks

>        M. Sulla, who describes himself as a degreed medievalist, said
>something to the effect of: the idea that the VMs is in an artificial
>language is totally anachronistic for the 1500's.

I'm sorry, but this really got my hackles up.  "Anachronistic" is
just a boo word, a pejorative.  It means that the concept was
unfamiliar to the temper of the times, the Zeitgeist or whatever.
It doesn't mean "impossible"; rather, it means "possible, but then
I'd have to rethink my prejudices".

I suppose a steam engine was anachronistic in the -100s, but there
was one.  A tram line was anachronistic in the -400s, but there
was one (it crossed the Isthmus of Corinth, as I recall).
A submarine was anachronistic in the 1400s, but there
was one.  And maybe an artificial language was anachronistic in
the 1500s, but nevertheless, Ramon Lull had invented one 300
years earlier.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio ...

Yours
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 11:29:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:24:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Jim Reed about Umberto Eco
In-Reply-To: <970306083721_985836989@emout04.mail.aol.com>
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On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:

> 
> I think it's unfair to categorize this work as entirely derivative. Eco has
> been collecting "constructed languages" - the generic name for developments
> as diverse as Esperanto, Klingon, and Lojban - for a long time, and some of
> the information he presents is not generally accessible, at least to me. I
> think the book is worthwhile for people on this list. I just bought it last
> summer, and it's probably still in print.

US Books in Print says --

 Eco, Umberto
 Fentress, James (Translator)
 The Search for the Perfect Language
 Blackwell Pubs
 1995
 Making of Europe Ser.
 350p.
 0-631-17465-6 Trade Cloth $24.95 (Ingram Price), $27.95



R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar  5 17:29:06 1997
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Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 09:17:02 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: VMS: Cathars at  http://www.isabel-uk.com/
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Status: OR

Trying to find out what a Jakob Sylvestre-type code was, I
stumbled upon this Web site:

http://www.isabel-uk.com/

Do go and visit it if you are interested in the Cathars
and the Templars.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 14:23:04 1997
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:14:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Multiple Spellings of Single Phonemes
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    Bob Richmond and I have been talking.  Identical twins sometimes 
develop private languages, idiolects, for their own communication.  I 
know there have been some scientific studies of this, although I 
couldn't give you a reference right now.  Thornton Wilder's *The 
Bridge at San Luis Rey* gives a fictional example of this.  
    
    I've also heard of outsider art ("art brut" in French).  This is 
idiosyncratic art, often using trash as material, created by persons 
on the margin of society, such as mental patients or homeless persons.  
In Gnosis magazine, I read about a man who had created an enormous 
altar-like sculpture out of trash in his garage.  He also left behind 
extensive writings in cipher. 
    
    SO - how's this for a crackpot theory?  The VMs is indeed an 
example of outsider art.  It was written by identical twins, A and B, 
who had inherited schizophrenia.  They did have a private shared 
idiolect and had even created their own script for it.  
    
    However, even identical twins have some differences.  Their script 
allowed for several different spellings of many phonemes.  A and B 
each used the orthography in different ways - hence the different 
statistics for the sections A and B wrote.  
    
    OR - the VMs is outsider art written by one person.  This person 
had schizophrenia and had developed his own private idiolect and a 
script for it like that just described.  However, in addition to 
schizophrenia, this person also had multiple personality disorder 
(MPD).  A and B are his two personalities.  
    
    Seriously now.  In English we usually write the unvoiced palatal 
fricative as sh.  However, we are quite used to seeing it written sch 
in German words and names.  We are used to occasionally seeing it 
written sz in Polish personal and place names.  Where I live there is 
a heavy French influence, so even English-speaking persons are used to 
seeing it written ch in personal and place names.   
    
    That gives four spellings, sh, sch, sz, and ch, for a single 
phoneme.  Note also that many of these share common subunits.  Sh, 
sch, and sz share s;  sch and ch share ch.   

    I've often thought that we are seeing this sort of thing in the 
VMs on an extensive scale.  If most phonemes had several spellings 
like this, and A and B made different choices, that would explain a 
lot. 
    
Cheers, 
Dennis 



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar  7 03:26:02 1997
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Subject: VMS: Did you know...
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Jacues wrote:

> Did you know....

Without meaning to sound pedantic or anything, yes,
and I was convinced you did too. But it does really not
do any harm at all to repeat these oddities. I think
they will help as a 'wedge' into the language or code.
If I may expand a bit on some of this:

> ... that <M> is preceded 90% of the times by <A>, and <N> 95% of the
> times in language A?
>
> ... that in language B <M> and <N> are preceded by <A> 97% of the times?
>
> And we were talking about the "infamous 4".

Precisely, precisely, yes, yes (to quote D'Imperio).

Note that the M,N preceded by A is equally valid for (Currier) J,
and also somewhat for Currier R and E. Whenever M, N, J is not
preceded by A, they are most usually preceded by 'O' instead.
And we're not necessarily always looking at transcription errors,
despite that fact that A and O are easy to mistake for each other.
Also, equating A and O will further drop the entropies, and we
don't want to do that! Also for R and E, the preceding letter,
if not A, is usually O. And note further that M,N,J,R and E are
the letters which can be preceded by strings of I (Well, these
are already included in the case of M and N) and what do we
see preceding these strings of I's? You got it: A and sometimes O.
Maybe I, II, and III are really Voynich characters. But what about
the curl up to turn them into N,M? Word final flourish? Some
abbreviation for -us -um or -er?
Or else 'A' 'AI' 'AII' etc. are single characters?

> No wonder the entropy of Voynichian is low!
Precisely, precisly, yes, yes (and see below).

In your other message, you mentioned the line-final behaviour of FSG-K
which can be
Currier-6 or Currier-J (i.e. Frogguy <ig> or <cg>). Note that J may be
preceded
by further I's. Now J is also a relatively frequent word-final (and
label-final) character.
'6' however is almost exclusively line-final. It seems that this is the
character intended by
Currier (but not identified precisely) when he mentions 'filler characters'
 to fill
lines to the right margin. The only other place where I have seen them
is... (rim shot)
right in front of a plant part intruding into the text. What does this tell
 me? Continuation
character. If so, the first character of the next line should probably (or
not?) have
a distribution different from the normal line-initial. A first eye check
was negative,
but this warrants further study.

Now back to the low entropy. What if the text contains dummy characters
which
cause this, e.g. the 'A' preceding N, M, J etc..? Suppose "A" is just a
'swap from
c-shape to i-shape' character and has no further meaning.
Adding this character should not change the entropy at all, but if we count
 A as a
separate character, and fail to see that it's just a part of 'AM' 'AN' 'AJ'
 etc,
we compute entropy values that are too low.
Now suppose we have the text without the A's. And this text has a certain
value
for h1. We start adding 'A's. For h1 it does not matter where we put them.
If we add zero A's, h1 will not change. Adding a fraction which is
comparable
to your average other character will increase the entropy. Adding a
humongous
number of them will in fact result in h1 tending to zero. So somewhere
there is
a critical fraction where, adding fewer 'A's than this fraction, the
entropy
is increased, whereas by adding more, the entropy is decreased.
I wonder if this fraction is anywhere near the frequency of 'O' in lang-A
or
'C' in lang-B......

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar  7 04:02:04 1997
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  Denis writes:
  > I am somewhat sad that so few pages have been transcribed or even
  > partially so in the astronomical/astrological section.
  > This has made me look more carefully  at EVMT Annex 2, list of pages.

Most of the zodiac labels that have been transcribed are owed to K.Kluge.
Do not stake your life on the accuracy of my Annex 2. It is probably
generally correct but has not been double-checked by anybody else.

  > We badly need good double real size, good contrast prints of all the
  > Calender pages. Jim - how much would  the Beinecke library chaege for
  > those ?  Ditto f57v and the six rosstta  pages.  Colour could be
  > important for the latter ones.

  The copies at the Marshall library, from which Petersen transcribed,
  would be a good alternative.

  > I make one offer  - I'll try to transcribe plate XXV of Newbold
  > Libra) as my copy ( done in pale and dark copies ) is only missing
  > a small part of the outer ring. All the ladies are naked - one is
  > wearing  a crown !

  If you do, we (Gabriel and myself) would be interested in a copy.
 In exchange you get the full transcription of the entire Ms (eventually).
I'm sorry not to be able to offer you any transcription support. We don't
want to distribute
intermediate, unchecked results, as the confusion this will cause can be
very disturbing
later on.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 16:14:03 1997
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I wrote this last night and this morning, before receiving Dennis'
message. Another coincidence!

I had started checking the interlinear transcription in file interln.evt
against my copy of Petersen. Then, I do not know what got over me, I
felt the urge to count digraphs in languages A and B, disregarding
spaces. This is the result of my count.

There is a table for each letter (in the FSG transcription system)
showing how often it is followed by others. The first column gives
the language (A or B) and the transcription corpus (C for Currier,
F for First Study Group). The next columns give the relative frequencies
of the next letter, disregarding spaces. The last column is the sum
of absolute frequencies. Columns with relative frequencies all under
1% (10 per thousand) are omitted.

For instance:

       A   C   D   G   H   O   8
S AC  43 204  15 138  17 554   7   945
  BC  20 738  44  35  20  68  61  1471
  AF  50 276  20 124  15 483   8  1230
  BF  31 703  43  39  19  94  56  2747

<S> is followed in the language A corpus, Currier's transcription (AC),
4.3% of the times by <A>, 20.4% by <C>, 1.5% by <D>, 13.8% by <G>, 1.7%
by <H>, 55.4% by <O>, 0.7% by <8>, for a total of 945 occurrences.
In language B, Currier's transcription (BC), it occurs 2% of the times
before <A>, 73.8% before <C> (yes!), ... for a total of 1471
occurrences, and so on.

Let us look at that table again:

       A   C   D   G   H   O   8
S AC  43 204  15 138  17 554   7   945
  BC  20 738  44  35  20  68  61  1471
  AF  50 276  20 124  15 483   8  1230
  BF  31 703  43  39  19  94  56  2747


In language B <S> is followed by <C> from 70% to 74% of the times!
In language A it is followed half the  time by <O> and from 20 to 28% of
the time by <C>. Look at <T> now:

       A   C   D   G   H   O   8
T AC  82 171  29 179  22 482  11  2943
  BC  19 637  63  51  24  62 117  2335
  AF  73 219  29 158  20 468  12  3529
  BF  34 593  49  57  21 100 116  5900

A similar distribution: in language B <T> is followed by <C>  60% of the
times. In language it is followed half the time by <O>, and 20% of the
times by <C>.


       A   C   G   O   2   8
Z AC 114 130 351 372   4   3  729
  BC  30 294 549  32   2  75  530
  AF  87 228 327 323  11   5 1025
  BF  48 284 539  45   0  68 1018


Once again, a similar distribution:  <Z> is followed mostly by <G> or
<C> in language B, and by <O> or <G> in language A.


Let us now turn to the "infamous 4"

      C   D   O
4 AC  0   5 974   645
  BC 13   3 967  2002
  AF  2  21 961   909
  BF  9   4 980  4049

<4> is almost always followed by <O>. Note that when it is sometimes
followed by <C> that is in language B.


These observations, calculated from the whole of the VMS, confirm my
earlier article on the distribution of <c> and <o>. It seems that
<C> of language B corresponds  very often to <O> of language A.


Now, I have argued that there is nothing particularly strange about <4>
being almost always followed by <O>, drawing examples  from Fijian and
Japanese. And indeed, do we not have, in English, in French, in Italian,
in German,  Q almost always followed by U? However, in Voynichian, these
pathological distributions affect not  only <4O> but also <SO> and <TO>
in
language A  and <SC> and <TC> and <ZG> in  language B. That, in my
linguist's mind, is far too many for comfort. It makes me  suspect that
<4O>, <SO>, <TO>, <SC>,  <TC> and <ZG> are single "letters". Just as
German "sch" and English "th" are single "letters".

Let us look at a very different distribution:

       D   E   G   H   O   P   R   S   T   2   4   8   -   =
G AC 128   4  26 120  79  22   2  49 148  26  79 143 133  22  2989
  BC  60  62  18  41 144  10  24  53  85  26 271  84  98   7  5481
  AF 122   5  27 120  96  22   5  49 139  36  90 132 121  21  3927
  BF  55  71  17  46 161  13  23  51 103  19 266  65  73  20 10895

<G> is not "wedded" to any particular following letter. Indeed, it is
somewhat promiscuous. Not only that, but we find it occurring quite
often at the end of lines (-) and at the end of paragraphs (=). To me,
this means that <G> is either a "letter" by itself, or the termination
of a "letter" (as "h"  terminates "sch" in German, "th" in English).
Note  how surprisingly often <G> is followed by <4> (and therefore <4O>)
in language B. Currier had mentioned it in his unpublished 1974 paper.

Here are another two letters which occur just as frequently  as <G> at
the end of lines or the end of paragraphs:


       A   D   E   G   H   O   P   S   T   2   4   8   -   =
M AC   3  28   3  39  90 106  16  89 164  25  79 122 180  37 1021
  BC  20  10   3  38   4 318   3 168 227  15  40  65  73  11  784
  AF   5  32   4  41  81 141  16  88 160  30  78 112 162  40 1314
  BF  60   5  11  41   8 309   4 133 244   8  66  40  40  23 3543

       A   D   E   G   H   O   P   R   S   T  2   4   8   -   =
N AC  15  29   5  44  59  88  25   5  69 176 39  29 152 186  54  204
  BC  25   7   2  25  11 320   2   4 195 230  9  39  53  67   7  565
  AF  15  25   5  54  79 118  15  15  64 163 34  25 172 153  44  203
  BF  33  29  18  33  14 257   4  36 112 261 11  43  54  76  11  276


There is a great difference, however, in language B: more than half
the  time, <M> and <N> are followed by <O> or <T>. Remember how <C> of
language B often corresponds to <O> of language  A. But <M> and <N>
are *never* followed by <C> in language B! How strange...


Here is  another  strange  distribution, that  of <C>:

       A   C   D   G   H   O  2   8
C AC  57 241  24 312  25 243 46  26  1614
  BC  12 216  48 181  19  79 13 406  5883
  AF  51 239  26 285  16 306 33  17  2946
  BF  21 253  31 191  13 113 14 342 13312

In language B,  <C> is mostly  followed by <8> or <C>. In language A by
<G> or <O>. Once more we see language B favouring <C> where language  A
has <O>. But what of <8> and <G>? The digraphs <CC> and <C8> are
very frequent in language B. In language A  it is <CO>  and <CG> which
are frequent. Strange...
Let  us have a look at <8>:


       A   C   E    G   O   S   T  4  8   -   =
8 AC 484  11   7  235  92  27  75  2 12  31   1  2123
  BC 204   7   6  701  32  14  14  7  1   7   0  4165
  AF 482  12   6  256  84  27  70  4 10  27   1  2698
  BF 254   7  10  642  27  13  18 10  3   6   1  8318

Once again, an extreme distribution. <8> is mostly followed by <G>
in language B, by <A> in language A. 90% of the times, <8> is  followed
by <A> or <G> in language B. That is almost as strong an attraction
as  that of the infamous <4> for <O>!

Now for a much different pattern:

       A   D   E   G   H   O   S   T  2   4  8   -   =
K AC   9   4   0  31  26 123  48  96 26  39 48 439  92  228
  BC   6  12  12   6   6  71   0  71 12  18 18 724  41  170
  AF  14   9   0  31  31 111  43 102 34  51 48 426  80  352
  BF  24   2   5  10   7  65  21  58 10  27 21 680  65  585

<K> appears mostly at the end of lines (-) and at the end of
paragraphs (=), especially so in language B. <L> shows a similar
pattern, but less strongly:

       A   D   E  G   H   I   O   P   S   T  2   4   8   -   =
L AC   0  55  18 73  36   0  55   0  27 155 27  27 127 327  45  110
  BC  14  85  42 42  28  14 239  14 127 169 14  28  28 141   0   71
  AF  37  12   0 61  12   0  73   0  49 171 37  61 110 329  49   82
  BF  91   0  23  0   0   0 295   0  68 182  0  45  23 250  23   44

To me, that means that <K> and <L> are line-final variants of some other
letter or part of a letter. As such, I would expect them to end in a
flourish. So far, I have not looked at what they are (I am not familiar
at all with the FSG transcription system). Let me look now. Bingo! <K>
is Frogguy <ig> and <L> is <iig>.

What do we have there? It looks very much as if many characters used
in the FSG transcription system did not constitute whole Voynichese
"letters". That the authors made extensive use of digraphs and trigraphs
to represent single letters/sounds, just like in "sch" and "ch" in
German. I leave you to mull this over. Here is the rest of my frequency
tables:


       E   I   K   L   M   N   R
A AC 125  62  57  28 434  91 170  2154
  BC 241  49  43   4 228 166 236  3343
  AF 172  53  61  18 400  64 188  2978
  BF 212  59  51   3 376  29 239  9142


       A   C   G   O  S   T   Z
D AC 138 139 107 171 51 273 114  1515
  BC 330 374  83  41 16  51  94  3253
  AF 141 225  89 146 40 211 142  2189
  BF 342 385  64  30 17  74  79  7052

       A   C   D   E   G   H   O  R   S   T   2   4   8  -   =
E AC  12   6  29   1  65  47 149  4  70 194  50  29 247 69   6 1613
  BC  41   8 133  16  56  25 162 10 133 201  19  40  86 55   2 2932
  AF  30  11  36   2  71  39 156  4  81 185  50  40 212 57   7 2385
  BF  59   6 197  33  43  27 148 13 103 185  17  42  62 42   6 6195

       A   C   D  G   O   S   T    Z  8   -   =
F AC  71  12   0 59 176  59 376  235 12   0   0   85
  BC 152   9   0 45  89  36 509  125  9  27   0  112
  AF  67   0  15 74 163  37 333  267 37   0   0  135
  BF 167  12   0 60  84  52 438  135 16  12   0  251


       A   C   G   O   S   T   Z
H AC  94  54 100 160  41 271 268  1672
  BC 259 332  86  77  30  85 120  1457
  AF 109  93  90 150  36 240 276  2053
  BF 322 312  62  63  27 111  92  3626

       C   D   E  H   I   K   L   M   O   R   2   8
I AC   6   6  29 13 425  48 105   0  22 288  13  13  313
  BC   3   3  46  3 410  28 123   0   0 372   5   0  390
  AF  17  21  21  8 204  92  21  83   4 446  29  21  240
  BF   0   7  32  3 155  43   6  26   4 678  14   9  690


       A   C   D   E  G   H  K	M   P	R   S	T   2	8
O AC  15  10 147 236 14 153 15 15  18 180  10  24  15 114  5370
  BC   6   9 349 287  5 143  2	2  20  84   3	4   9  56  5569
  AF  13  13 165 247 11 136 14 12  17 171   9  20  22 117  7204
  BF  12  13 326 226  3 177  3	4  30  83   3	6  12  78 12789

       A   C   G   O   S   T   Z   8
P AC  40   7  63 100  33 427 303  17  300
  BC  88  25  38 170 104 452  96  25  365
  AF  38   3  74 125  36 416 288  13  392
  BF 137   5  28 148  51 508  89  25 1020


       A  D   E   G   H   O   P   S   T  2   4	 8   -	 =
R AC  49 21   4  95  47 176  10  97 242 19  32 102  67	11  1460
  BC 221  9   6  64   6 261   3 137 152  4  29	27  61	 3  1602
  AF  89 22   4  87  40 178   7 101 237 20  37	83  64	10  1968
  BF 291 11  13  53   5 257   4  99 136  5  38	19  40	 9  4152



       A   C   D   E   G   H   O   S   T   2   4   8   -   =
2 AC 156  21  21   2 116  12 235  62 202   6   6  27 104   6  519
  BC 425  11  11   9  44   9 279  49  69   7  11  12  51   2  569
  AF 206  30  23   1 104  15 246  60 160  11  13  21  90   6  798
  BF 470  11  12  16  47   4 242  39  61   5  19  16  35  10 1122

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar  7 11:59:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:59:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
X-Sender: dalford@haywire
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: Lojban
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On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dennis wrote:
> 
> 	Dan hints at my own suspicion about Lojban as a test of the Whorf
> hypothesis.  The grammar of Loglan/Lojban is that of predicate logic. 
> Predicate logic and various other systems of logic and mathematics are not
> universal, value-neutral concepts, but are themselves specific languages
> -- and very restrictive ones at that. 
> 
I've sent you my speaker's notes for "Stealing the Fire," about how major
advances in physics during this century have really been linguistic
advances. Relativity, whether Whorf's or Einstein's (or Humboldt's early
last century), is about how every language, natural or mathematical, makes
choices in its structural patterns, and by doing so ignores other choices,
and the choices become the basis for the unique logic, reasoning, and
worldview of its speakers/users. Native American languages are now known
to have a logic that is more like mathematical relationship languages
which focus on process and relationship rather than objects. Therefore,
any "predicate logic" that makes a first cut of subject + predicate can
not be presumed to be based on any "universal" human logic since it (as
usual) leaves out the structural possibilities of Algonquian family and
other Native American languages, where people say they can talk all day
long and never utter a single noun. That is to say, I wholeheartedly agree
with your statement, Dennis.

warm regards, moonhawk



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar  7 12:20:04 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
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I agree with the latter part, and would add about glossolalia: Assuming
something to be glossolalic (which is by definition spoken, not written)
doesn't get one off the hook about language patterns, since wherever it
has been researched, in both Christian and non-christian contexts, the
sound/syllable patterns of glossolalic utterances are not different from
those of the daily language spoken by the glossolalic; that is, if certain
sounds or clusters are not normal in the daily language, they will also
not appear in the transcendent utterances. My own experiences while
growing up in an Assemblies of God church have convinced me that the
process is one of emotional meaning bubbling up from the limbic system and
going straight to the speech production areas, bypassing cortical
cognition altogether.

warm regards, moonhawk



On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, M. Sulla wrote:

> I don't know Hildegard.  I consider Kelley/ Dee Enochian as glossolalia.
> George Dalgarno and John Wilkens worked on semantics in the 1660's (too
> late), using  Petrus Ramus (1515-1572) as an inspiration.   My
> interpretation is that the deep scholastic speculation on language really
> starts in the mid-1600s and develops eventually into modern linguistics.
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar  7 12:41:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:34:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
cc: "M. Sulla" <sulla@globaldialog.com>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Reply to Jim G.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970307091508.19428A-100000@haywire>
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	I'd like some further comments on my remarks on "spontaneous"
artificial languages.  Helene Smith's "Martian" language carried as much
meaning and had as much syntactic structure as, at least, a pidgin
language.  However, she somehow fabricated it on an unconscious level,
while under hypnosis.  My impression is that Hildegard's lingua ignota (of
which there are a few samples in D'Imperio) and Kelley's Enochian could be
the same sort of thing.  

	I may be confused by terminology.  My impression is that
glossolalia does not have the same degree of structure and meaning
described above.  

Dennis

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:

> I agree with the latter part, and would add about glossolalia: Assuming
> something to be glossolalic (which is by definition spoken, not written)
> doesn't get one off the hook about language patterns, since wherever it
> has been researched, in both Christian and non-christian contexts, the
> sound/syllable patterns of glossolalic utterances are not different from
> those of the daily language spoken by the glossolalic; that is, if certain
> sounds or clusters are not normal in the daily language, they will also
> not appear in the transcendent utterances. My own experiences while
> growing up in an Assemblies of God church have convinced me that the
> process is one of emotional meaning bubbling up from the limbic system and
> going straight to the speech production areas, bypassing cortical
> cognition altogether.

> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, M. Sulla wrote:
> 
> > I don't know Hildegard.  I consider Kelley/ Dee Enochian as glossolalia.
> > George Dalgarno and John Wilkens worked on semantics in the 1660's (too
> > late), using  Petrus Ramus (1515-1572) as an inspiration.   My
> > interpretation is that the deep scholastic speculation on language really
> > starts in the mid-1600s and develops eventually into modern linguistics.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar  6 22:50:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 14:36:29 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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What letters start and end a line? A paragraph?

In language A about 66% of lines start with <G>, <O>, <4> or <8>. In
language B about 60% do, but another 14% start with <2> (only 8% for
language A).

Paragraphs, however, seldom start with those letters. Instead, 56% of
paragraphs start with <P> or <H> in language A, and 75% in language
B. In language A a line almost never starts with <P>, and rarely does in
language B.

In language A, 35% of lines end with <G> and 15% with <M>. Letters which
end lines are also found at the end of paragraphs, in roughly the same
proportions as at the end of lines. The picture is about the same for
language B. Note how <M> is more frequent at the end of paragraphs than
at the end of lines. It is almost certain that ends of paragraphs are
also the ends of sentences. Perhaps <M> is a common ending of words
which then to occur at the end of sentences? For instance, in Hindi and
many other related Indian languages, sentences very often end with the
verb "to be". Or perhaps, as often in Latin, sentences end with a verb,
and <M> is a common verbal ending.

The strange thing is that we do not find the same letters at the
beginning of paragraphs as we do at the beginning of lines. I had, much
earlier on this list, floated the idea that some gallows (Frogguy <lj>
and <qj>) were not letters at all, but fulfilled a role similar to
underlining or capitalizing a word. "Next comes a capital letter", as
it were. I tend to think that paragraph-initial letters are
"highlighted" in the VMS, and that <P> and <F> are used for this
purpose. But letters which, by their shapes, being tall, or with a
flourish, are naturally "highlighted", do not need this "capital" sign.



               Relative frequencies (per thousand)
                 of initial letters of lines

       D   E   F   G   H   K   O   P   S   T   2   4   8  sum of rows
- AC  10   9   1 141  40   0 222   2  89  89  62 149 165     1153
  AF  16  10   1 156  48  12 199   4  81  72  71 124 175     1375
  BC  10  34   2 123  86   0 101  64  39  29 143 200 148     1132
  BF   5  28   3 166  67   8 127  23  41  31 142 136 171     1989


               Relative frequencies (per thousand)
                 of initial letters of paragraphs

       D   E   F   G   H   K   O   P   S   T   2   4   8  sum of rows
= AC 182   0  72  28 227   0  50 326  11  11  17  22  22     181
  AF 175   4  70  35 227   9  48 336   4   4  17  26  35     229
  BC  83   0  14   0 319   0  28 431  28   0  14   0  14      72
  BF  68   2  25  16 233   0  27 536   9   7  11  36  20     442



Language A,              Language A,
transcription C,         transcription F,
freq per thousand,       freq per thousand,
by colums                by columns

       -    =  sum of            -    =  sum of
               rows                      rows
A      4    0  2155       A     15    4  2978
E     96   55  1615       E     99   70  2385
G    345  359  2993       G    346  361  3927
K     87  116   229       K    109  122   352
L     31   28   110       L     20   17    82
M    160  210  1021       M    155  230  1315
N     33   61   205       N     23   39   203
O     11   22  5371       O     15   17  7204
R     85   88  1465       R     92   87  1968
2     47   17   519       2     52   22   798
8     57   11  2124       8     53   17  2698
sum 1153  181           sum   1375  230
of                      of
columns                 columns



Language B,               Language B,
transcription C,          transcription F,
freq per thousand,        freq per thousand,
by columns                by columns

       -    =  sum of              -    =  sum of
               rows                         rows
A      4    0  3344         A     22    5  9142
E    141   96  2936         E    130   86  6195
G    475  507  5492         G    400  501 10897
K    109   96   170         K    200   86   585
M     50  123   785         M     70  185  3544
N     34   55   565         N     11    7   276
O     11    0  5574         O     17    5 12789
R     86   68  1604         R     83   81  4152
2     26   14   572         2     20   25  1122
8     26   14  4169         8     27   11  8318
sum 1132   73             sum   1989  443
of                        of
columns                   columns

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar  7 00:02:05 1997
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 15:52:34 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Did you know.... (FSG transcription used here)

that <S> and <T> (Frogguy <c't> and <ct>) are followed about half the
times by <O> in language A but only between 6% and 10% of the times in
language B? It is <C> that follows <S> and <T> in language B, from 60%
to ... 74% of the times!

... that <M> is preceded 90% of the times by <A>, and <N> 95% of the
times in language A?

... that in language B <M> and <N> are preceded by <A> 97% of the times?

And we were talking about the "infamous 4". (*sigh*) The infamous <4> is
followed by <O> just as often as <M> and <N> are preceded by <A> in
language B: 97% of the times.

Did you know that <K> (Frogguy <ig>) is preceded 80% of the times by <A>
in language B, but only 50% of the times in language A? In language A
<K> is preceded 30% of the times by <O>, and that makes up for the
shortfall almost exactly.

Did you know that 78% of <D>'s (Frogguy <lp>) are followed by <C>, <O>
or <G> in language B?

Did you know that when a word ends in <M> or <N> in language B, three
times
out of ten the next word starts with <O>?

Did you know that <H> (frogguy <lp>) is preceded by <O> almost half the
times in language A, and more than half the times in language B?


... that <G> is preceded half the times by <8> in language B, but less
than 20% of the times in language A? And that <8> is followed two times
out of three by <G> in language B but only one time out of four in
language A?


No wonder the entropy of Voynichian is low!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar  8 15:26:02 1997
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Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:19:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
cc: "M. Sulla" <sulla@globaldialog.com>, VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Reply to Reply to Jim G.
In-Reply-To: <01IG5W2YQOAG8WW3UE@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
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On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, rmalek wrote:

> The truth, my dear Mark, is that the final solution was realized in 1945,

The Final Solution was indeed realized, or at least attempted, about that
time.  <shudder>


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar  9 23:20:01 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: Jim Reed about Umberto Eco
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 23:16:08 -0500 (EST)
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Appropriately, Eco's _The Search for the Perfect Language_ is now available
in an Esperanto edition (_La Sercxado de la Perfekta Lingvo_) from:

    Flemish Esperanto League
    Frankrijklei 140
    B-2000 Antwerpen
    Belgium

ISBN = 88-7036-064-4     Price = 660 Belgian francs (about $20-25)

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar  9 23:35:02 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: Multiple Spellings of Single Phonemes
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 23:32:55 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970306141228.24977A-100000@candy.micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at Mar 6, 97 02:14:04 pm
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Dennis recently wrote:
>     I've also heard of outsider art ("art brut" in French).  This is 
> idiosyncratic art, often using trash as material, created by persons 
> on the margin of society, such as mental patients or homeless persons.  
> In Gnosis magazine, I read about a man who had created an enormous 
> altar-like sculpture out of trash in his garage.  He also left behind 
> extensive writings in cipher. 

The New York Times had an fascinating article two weeks ago about one of these
"outsider artists", a guy who lived in a tiny room and worked at a modest
job for years, but in his spare time created a large number of collage/
paintings describing a "theological war" between three races consisting of
evil men, angelic little girls, and benevolant dragon-like creatures called
"blengans". In addition to the paintings he was said to have written a
15,000 page book on the subject!

Incidentally, these painting are currently being exhibited in NY somewhere.

Bruce Grant        

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 10 11:26:05 1997
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:12:50 +0200
Subject: Re: multiple spellings of single phonemes
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Dear all,

I cannot resist to lay out the multiple spelling of
Dutch phonemes as a nice example. To a lesser extent
it holds for German as well, and if the VMs is written
in phonetic Dutch (or German), this is what we're faced
with:

This one has......N different sounds
------------      ------------------
a                 2
e                 3
i                 3
o                 2
u                 2
ij                2
eu                2 (depends on following 'r')
ui                1 (i.e. this is not u+i)
oe                1 (not o+e)

These sound the same    But note
--------------------    --------
'a'  'aa'               One of the two 'a's of above
'e'  'ee'               One of the 'e's. 'ee' also sounds
                        different when followed by 'r'
'i'  'ie'               One of the 'i's
'o'  'oo'               One of the 'o's. 'oo' also modified
                        by following 'r'
'u'  'uu'               One of the 'u's.
'u'  'eu'               The other 'u' and one of the 'eu's
'ou' 'au' 'ouw' 'auw'   Note that spelling differences give
                        difference of meaning but the sounds
                        are the same (kou, kouw, kauw all exist).
'ij' 'ei'               Same about spelling/meaning
'e' 'i' 'ij'            These can all be the schwa. The Flemish
                        word 'gelukkiglijk' has them all, and the
                        'u' sounds very similar.

What did I leave out?
1) The above is valid for 'proper' Dutch. Accents and dialects
   cause some wild variations in modern Dutch. I did not
   mention Flemish which is also Dutch, because I am not
   sufficiently familiar with the correct pronouniation in
   that case.
2) The consonants. Particularly atrocious are the word-final
   -d, -t and -dt which sound identical (a good way to recognise
   a Dutchman's english: 'hand' will sound like 'hant'.)
   Also, 't' may be pronounced 'ts'. 'ch = 'g' etc. etc.
   Almost all consonants can be doubled, which does not
   affect their sound but rather the sound of the preceding
   vowel.

Needless to say, spoken Dutch and written Dutch bear little
resemblance to each other. And it takes a while to learn.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar  9 18:20:01 1997
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:04:59 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Did you know that...
...  D is preceded by N 48% of the times?

In Genesis (King James's Version), that is.

... and J followed 88% of the times by A or E?

... and V 79% of the times  by E?

I was surprised by those statistics myself.
T is followed 51% of the times by H, and that is how the digraph TH
betrays itself. Hardly something to celebrate: H is followed 45% of the
times by E.

For VE, it is all those "heaven", "evening", "over", "every", etc.  that
are responsible.  For ND the main culprit is "and", for JA it is those
Hebrews: Jacob, Japheth, Jared, Javan...

I replaced every "sh" with "sch", "f" with "ph" and "s" with "sz". Only
"sz" was evident, with 99% of Z's preceded by an S.

It is very discouraging. We can, perhaps, only safely assume that
Voynich 4O, AN and AM form a single letter.

But for the life of me, I cannot see how the VMS could be a
polyalphabetic cipher (by which I take it is meant a Vigenere cipher?).
If it were,

either:

1. the plain text is even more repetitive


or:

2. several keys were used, selected so as to produce those repetition


Of course I can think of ways, but they are impractical: you would need
very many keys, and something in the text telling  you which key is
being used. Even so, I can't buy it. The coding effort would be too
much. Practically it would amount  to a system in which common letter
groups, or words, would be enciphered similarly, viz: one key
enciphering AND, THE, OF, etc as 8AM, 8AN, 4O, etc., another
enciphering IN, AT, -ING, etc as 8AM, 8AN, 4O, etc; perhaps, rather,
probably, a third, a fourth.... Some characters, or sequences of
characters, would tell you which key is used next. Those would likely be
the letters or groups occurring at the initial of paragraphs, i.e. the
gallows. The scribes would have selected each key so as to maximize
repetitions. Even so,  how would not-so-common digraphs and trigraphs be
enciphered into repetitive patterns? No, I can't see it. An Extended
King Tut cipher would achieve the same result better, with far less
effort.

Back to square one?  Possibly. 4O could still be two letters, like QU in
English, WA in Japanese, YA in Fijian. So could AN and AM (and OM):
just think of Portuguese where tilde (~) is always associated with A or
O. And cedilla with C... and which has QU!  Treating those common
groups as single letters does not help remove the repetitions. It is
back
to square one, I am afraid. But again... homo homini lupus, similia
similibus curantur ... at videntur! Those repetitions might be
deliberate
stylistic mannerisms.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 03:23:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:21:23 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> But for the life of me, I cannot see how the VMS could be a
> polyalphabetic cipher (by which I take it is meant a Vigenere cipher?).
> If it were,
> 
> either:
> 
> 1. the plain text is even more repetitive
> 
> or:
> 
> 2. several keys were used, selected so as to produce those repetition
> 
The Vigenere cipher is in my estimation the simplest example of
polyalphabeticity, and even Trithemius' suggestions offer systems far more
advanced than the Vigenere.  Selenus draws on further knowledge and extends
the possibilities even further.  For some reason the Vigenere seems to be
the one of the few systems offered in textbooks on the subject, while more
meaningful systems pass into history without comment.

Some of the things you can expect in a relatively secure polyalphabetic
cipher are these:

1.  Use of random alphabets instead of the cyclic Vigenere tables.  

2.  Alphabets may be odd in character and odd in number as a security
measure.  For instance, why would a 16th century writer need a 'Y' or a 'J'
when these letters can be accomplished with an 'I'?

3.  Use of the same character more than once in some of these alphabets to
throw off frequency.  (This rarely adds any ambiguity to the cipher's
plaintext reading.)

4.  Use of more than one key simultaneously, possibly one vertical, one
horizontal.  One of these keys may be signified by minor changes in
character or typeface.  The slight differences in "gallows" characters
could be an example.

5.  Use of a trick known as far back as the 13th century - never spell the
same word the same way twice.  If 13th century crytographers were aware of
the repetitive nature of language, how much more were the cryptographers of
the 15th and 16th centuries?  The Voynich author can be assumed to have had
access to this knowledge as well.

Do both of these phrases communicate similar meanings?

"Red peppers, picked in the autumn and hung on a string until dry, are used
in this recipe."

"Dri Hemp hung rote pepr autum pikt wil do nicly."

The only difference between the two phrases is that one we would write in
common English, and the other in secure cipher.  The second phrase allows
the author to confuse the language distribution, and even gives him a
choice of lettering, should he wish to use the language as a part of the
cipher.  If you doubt this, just go through your language bank and figure
out how many ways you can say and spell the English word "red".  If our
Voynich author was an educated man, his language bank would consist of up
to seven languages, not including local dialects and special studies, and a
host of misspellings of each of those languages available to him.

Polyalphabetic cipher cannot yet be ruled out by your frequency studies and
logical arguments.  There is much more to be learned in the art of cipher
than the childlike simplicity of the Vigenere tables.

Regards,  Rayman

P.S.  I am ready to send.  Please let me know when would be a good time.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 06:23:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:18:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
cc: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au, VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
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On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, rmalek wrote:

> Some of the things you can expect in a relatively secure polyalphabetic
> cipher are these:
> 
> 1.  Use of random alphabets instead of the cyclic Vigenere tables.  
> 
> 2.  Alphabets may be odd in character and odd in number as a security
> 
> 3.  Use of the same character more than once in some of these alphabets to
> 
> 4.  Use of more than one key simultaneously, possibly one vertical, one
> 
> 5.  Use of a trick known as far back as the 13th century - never spell the

	All of these things are entirely possible.  So far, I see two
problems:

	1.  A system with this many choices would produce a very random
text.  That's characteristic even of Vigenere encipherments.  We would
expect to see a very high entropy instead of the low entropy that we do in
fact see.

	2.  If you take a small enough sample of text and apply a system
with enough adjustable variables, you can read anything you want into the
text.  Newbold was as good an example of this as anything.  Two pages of
text isn't a good enough test of a system with this many variables.  We'd
probably have apply it to the entire text to really know.  

	With those reservations in mind, it will be interesting to see
what Strong's system was like.  

Cheers,
Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 07:50:03 1997
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Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
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Dennis and Jacques wrote:

>> ...  D is preceded by N 48% of the times?
>>
>> In Genesis (King James's Version), that is.
>>
>> ... and J followed 88% of the times by A or E?
>>
>> ... and V 79% of the times  by E?
>>
>> I was surprised by those statistics myself.
> This is very interesting!....
> ...
> Making comparisons like these could help a lot in
> identifying the basic building blocks of the system.

The feature is the same in English and Voynichese, but
the extent of its occurring is different. The second
order entropy h2 may be written:

Sum(first-char) p(first-char) * h1(chars-following-first)

(I hope that's not too obscure).
So h2 is built up of a linear combination of some special
types of first-order entropies, which are interesting by
themselves: for each 'first char' you may compute the entropy of
the characters following it (or preceding it in fact).
If one of these numbers is low, you have a character that
tends to form standard groups. I in fact once made some plots
where for each character the entropy of the preceding character
was plotted (y-scale) vs the entropy of the following character
(x-scale). The plot was then rotated counter-clockwise by 45
degrees so that the y-scale was pointing up left and the x
scale up right. Now characters that tend to form fixed pairs
(Dennis' basic building blocks) with the next character (such
as Currier 4 does) would be forced to the left hand side of
the plot. Worse, characters such as Currier J, N, M were
stranded near the origin, as they are almost always between
'A' and 'space'. I made the plots also for a vulgate text.

Some things I found extremely interesting:
1) The vowels in Latin formed a little group separated from
   the consonants (in the middle, above all of them). No
   need to run a Sukhotin algorithm. They were there, all
   together. This is not entirely surprising, but the
   effect was astonishingly clear.
2) Liquids were high up in the 'consonant cloud', again
   not unexpected.
3) In Voynichese, whereas Sukhotin identifies A, O, 9, C
   as vowels, these did not stand out all that clearly.
   They are not vowels 'in the same sense' as a,e,i,o,u in
   Latin. This I did find very surprising.
4) In Latin, only 'q' was aberrant. Some characters were
   lower in the plot, but these low ones were still higher
   than *many* of the Voynich characters. The low Voynich
   h2 value is not caused by one or two aberrant symbols.
   They are all to blame. Again a bit surprising.
5) Both in Latin and Voynichese, the space character was
   offset somewhat to the right. This means it tends to make
   more fixed pairs with preceding characters, or that the
   variation of word-ending characters is lower than that
   of word-initial characters. Is this evidence for a language
   using inflections? Does this happen with all languages? Does
   it prove Voynichese is not written backwards?

Similar tests were done by dropping vowels from the Latin,
dropping spaces in both, but never did the Voynich plot
look at all like that of an honest language.
I wanted to try Greek as well, but got stuck with the
problem of chosing a decent transcription alphabet:
psi = ps, but should ksi be ks or x? Should 'au' and 'eu'
not be 'av' and 'ev' or 'af' and 'ef' (they were the latter
in the sample text but I didn't like it. The sample text
was of course modern greek). What to do with eta, or
with the spiritus (lost in the modern text) etc, etc.
I knew I'd have to try several options and stopped there.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 07:02:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:50:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
In-Reply-To: <33244D4B.680E@trl.telstra.com.au>
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On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> Did you know that...
> ...  D is preceded by N 48% of the times?
> 
> In Genesis (King James's Version), that is.
> 
> ... and J followed 88% of the times by A or E?
> 
> ... and V 79% of the times  by E?
> 
> I was surprised by those statistics myself.
> T is followed 51% of the times by H, and that is how the digraph TH
> betrays itself. Hardly something to celebrate: H is followed 45% of the
> times by E.
> 
> For VE, it is all those "heaven", "evening", "over", "every", etc.  that
> are responsible.  For ND the main culprit is "and", for JA it is those
> Hebrews: Jacob, Japheth, Jared, Javan...
> 
> I replaced every "sh" with "sch", "f" with "ph" and "s" with "sz". Only
> "sz" was evident, with 99% of Z's preceded by an S.
> 
> It is very discouraging. We can, perhaps, only safely assume that
> Voynich 4O, AN and AM form a single letter.

	This is very interesting!  However, I've also thought that
comparing the A and B languages could be a lot of help with this problem.  

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:
 
> These observations, calculated from the whole of the VMS, confirm my
> earlier article on the distribution of <c> and <o>. It seems that
> <C> of language B corresponds  very often to <O> of language A.

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> Did you know.... (FSG transcription used here)

> Did you know that <K> (Frogguy <ig>) is preceded 80% of the times by <A>
> in language B, but only 50% of the times in language A? In language A
> <K> is preceded 30% of the times by <O>, and that makes up for the
> shortfall almost exactly.

	Making comparisons like these could help a lot in identifying the
basic building blocks of the system.  

	Something else to keep in mind.  The building blocks themselves
might be built only from a small pool of subunits.  This could explain how
we have a multiple-choice system, yet a text with low entropy.  

	Imagine a system like this:

	Current		Possible
	English		New
	Spelling	Spellings
	--------	---------------------------

	s		s, pch
	z		z, bch
	sh		ch, sch
	(zh)
	   like in 
	   garage	rch, lch
	ch		tch, tsch, psch
	j		dch, dsch, drch, dlch, bsch
	---------------------------------------------
	

	There are at least two choices for each phoneme, but the
combinations ch and sch obviously will be heavily over-represented in the
text.  This would probably lead to a fairly low entropy text, even with a
multiple choice system.
	
 
Cheers,
Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 11:35:05 1997
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Dear all,

I just learned about a document called the Tesoro,
supposedly written by King Alfonso of Castile in 1272.
It is a small parchment volume of about 10 folios,
of which 62 paragraphs consist of unintelligible ciphers.

Anybody know anything of it? What are the odds that
this is the same cipher as we have? Is this the
second most mysterious manuscript in the world?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 12:44:02 1997
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To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
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   From Denis V Mardle                  11 March 1997

  John and Sue  -  Thanks for your extracts with labels

I asked for 

>     Pages  112-118 fill in a gap they are folios 57v-66v    labels for 147-166 are labels
> ( not regular text ) spread at odd places on some of folios 75r to 84v    The rossetta
> pages are  f85v2,v1 and 86r4,r3,r6,r5       pp 181-186 are  f88r,v and f89r1,r2,v2,v1   and
> pp 201-211 are  f99r to 102v1   The Annex 2 shows + signs for labels in the L column
> 
>        Those selected sections will satisfy me for the present.  Gabriel says I should wait
> for the completed file when the transcription is complete.
>
   You said

<. I'm sending you the pp 112-118, 147-166, 181-186, 201-211 complete
<as I haven't been able to get to separating the labels from the text.  >>>

 As I thought, the labels on the biological pages are missing.  I'll transcibe the few I have
and others with access to other pages can try later.  I presume the rossetta pages are
not yet transcribed.

 The pharmaceutical and star labels have interesting relationships especially by position
in lists and on lines.  For a start people might like to look at  OFAR9   OPAE89 and
OPOE89 plus OPOF9 in the whole file.  Hint - look especially at f67r1.S.1 and .2 against
the start and ends of recipes on f99r and f99v.  Incidentally the pots on f99r all have labels
but the colours clearly clash except for pot 1 which has OFAROJO6.  The single plant
recipes on f99r and v are quite long - POE2AR9  and  FOESAROE.    I had transcribed
the labels on f99r, 99v and 100r before your attatchment arrived.

   Thanks again   Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 15:41:02 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
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	Rene has come up with some very good ideas!  Indeed, there have
been more good ideas than I can keep up with!! 

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> > Making comparisons like these could help a lot in
> > identifying the basic building blocks of the system.

	However, the point I wanted to make is to compare Voynich A and
Voynich B.  If we assume that each underlying phoneme has several
different multi-character representations and A and B had different
preferences, looking at the differences between Voynich A and Voynich B
could help identify the overall set for each phoneme.  
 
> 5) Both in Latin and Voynichese, the space character was
>    offset somewhat to the right. This means it tends to make
>    more fixed pairs with preceding characters, or that the
>    variation of word-ending characters is lower than that
>    of word-initial characters. Is this evidence for a language
>    using inflections? Does this happen with all languages? Does
>    it prove Voynichese is not written backwards?

	This touches on something I've long thought about.  

    For the idea that the VMs represents single phonemes with multiple
choices of groups of multiple characters, the fly in the ointment has
always been word divisions.  The average VMs word length is rather short. 
However, word divisions are not random, since certain characters and
digraphs gather there.  The obvious conclusions is that "word" divisions
are actually syllable divisions, or divisions into groups of two or at
most three syllables. 
    
    However, I have never seen real-world examples of languages with
phonemic writing that do this.  (Of course, there's always the first
time!)  From what little I've seen, ancient inscriptions and manuscripts
up to about 800 AD show no word divisions.  After that approximate point,
they divide words much as modern texts do.  I've seen one text that
aggregated some small words together, but none that divided long words
into smaller syllable clusters.
    
    However, consider spoken modern French.  All syllables are stressed
about the same there.  The written language divides words as its ancestor,
Latin, did.  However, although I speak French fairly well, I honestly
don't know how one distinguishes word divisions in the spoken French
language by itself. 
    
    Dan Moonhawk Alford recently discussed Native American languages. 
Although I don't remember specific examples, I remember reading that some
of these do the same thing.  They do not divide sentences into separate,
distinct words. 

    Finally, as Gabriel Landini has often pointed out, word divisions are
often difficult to judge from the copy!
    
    Any comments, anyone?
    
Cheers,
Dennis         



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 18:14:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:43:53 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> 	1.  A system with this many choices would produce a very random
> text.  That's characteristic even of Vigenere encipherments.  We would
> expect to see a very high entropy instead of the low entropy that we do
in
> fact see.

If you were to encipher common language using a system such as this, the
text could be random, but if you allow yourself flexibility in language and
spelling, you can gain some control over the entropy problem.  We all
assume that the nature of cipher is to randomize, but what if an
artistically enclined person chose to design a cipher that mimicked the
characteristics of language?  A well designed mathematical system can also
be used to draw wonderful and artistic designs.  What would be wrong with
applying mathematics in such a way as to create a fluid cipher text instead
of a random one?


> 	2.  If you take a small enough sample of text and apply a system
> with enough adjustable variables, you can read anything you want into the
> text.  Newbold was as good an example of this as anything.  Two pages of
> text isn't a good enough test of a system with this many variables.  We'd
> probably have apply it to the entire text to really know.

A single page of text would be sufficient if it followed a clear set of
mathematical rules.  We would expect certain factors to change from page to
page, such as the beginning alphabet, the number of alphabets in use, etc. 
We would expect the other pages to follow the basic mathematical system,
however.

> 	With those reservations in mind, it will be interesting to see
> what Strong's system was like.  

Reservations are good - without reservation there would be no discussion. 
I am working on several angles right now to get these works to the group. 
I am waiting for a concensus on the indexing problem, and also looking into
two methods of getting the work on the net.  No matter what, these works
will be available in some form within two weeks, and please keep me to this
deadline, as time passes for me so quickly these days.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 11 17:44:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:45:39 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I've taken my tonal rules and reversed their affects. Now the constant
is the vowel set, with the previous rules determining which consonant is
applied. Attached is a sample of language A and B using this character
set.

				John.
------------35116C7B32720
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#
# page 47
# folio  25r
# Currier's language A, hand 1
# herbal
<f25r>
<f25r.1;C>         Chuwaketekika kokewoka kishla *sa wokekika
kishla kewaketekika Tsuketekika koka -
<f25r.1;F>         Chuwaketekika kokewoka kishla Chika wokekika
kishla kewaketekika Tsuketekika koka -
<f25r.2;C>         kechiketo waketo wakotsuka wakechiwaka woshsa
unkeki woshwaka tsuwaka watsushsa -
<f25r.2;F>         kechiketo waketo watotsuka wakechiwaka woshso
unkeki woke waka tsuwaka watsushsa -
<f25r.3;C>         unkechiwaka unkechiwoka wapopo wonshto ko
washsa kishla washsa kishta -
<f25r.3;F>         unkechiwaka unkechiwoka wapopo wonshto ko
washsa kishla washsa kish -
<f25r.4;C>         kiwaChika woketsika kachiwana tsiketo ko
washta washla unkechiwashsa -
<f25r.4;F>         sa kiwaChika woketsika kachiwana tsiketo ko
washta washla unkechiwashsa -
<f25r.5;C>         unkechiwazhla kiwashsa tsishsa kishla kishla
tsishsa unkechishla -
<f25r.5;F>         unkechiwazhla kiwashsa tsishsa kishla kishla
tsishsa unkechishla -
<f25r.6;C>         ketsushte wakechishla =
<f25r.6;F>         ketsushte wakechishla =
<f25r.7;C>         kishso kechishlo kechikekoka =
<f25r.7;F>         kishso kechishlo kechikekoka =
#
# page 48
# folio  25v
# Currier's language A, hand 1
# herbal
<f25v>
<f25v.1;C>         ***shla unketsuka woka kishla unkechuwana
kechiwana unkeChuwaketo kokeko -
<f25v.1;F>         chukenshla unketsuka woka kishla unkechuwana
kechiwana unkeChuwaketo kokeko -
<f25v.2;C>         kiwaketo tsiketo waketo kishla ko ketsunshla
kishla China kishla -
<f25v.2;F>         kiwaketo tsiketo waketo kishla ko ketsunshla
kishla China kishla -
<f25v.3;C>         ketowake tsuwaketo wakete kishla woTsiketo
kishla kiwona kishschika -
<f25v.3;F>         ketowake tsuwaketo wakete kishla woChiketo
kishla kiwona kishsachika -
<f25v.4;C>         unketsushla unketsuwake wokete kishla Chizhto
Chikete kishla watsuzhto -
<f25v.4;F>         unketsushla unketsuwake wokete kishla Chizhto
Chikete kishla watsuzhto -
<f25v.5;C>         kishto waketsupa kiwoketo kiwona unkewakete
kikete wake kishla kishla -
<f25v.5;F>         kishto waketsupa kiwoketo kiwona unkewakete
kikete wake kishla kishla -
<f25v.6;C>         unketsuwake to kewaka unkechiwaka
unkechiketoshte wake * washsa kinshlo ko -
<f25v.6;F>         unketsuwake tokewaka unkechiwaka
unketsuketoshte wake * washsa kinshlo ko -
<f25v.7;C>         ke* watsuna kishs kete kishla woChi ketowashla
=
<f25v.7;F>         kewo watsuna kishsakete kishla woChika
ketowashla =
#
# page 49
# folio  26r
# Currier's language B, hand 2
# herbal
<f26r>
<f26r.1;C>         chuwonetsuka kekishlo unkeka -keChuwokeki
wakachuwana kachuwanikashsa -wakeChuke -wakchuwakika -
<f26r.1;F>         chuwonetsuka kekishlo unkeka -keChukoneki
wakachuwana kachuwanika shsa -wakeChuke -waTsukika -
<f26r.2;C>         kiwana koshla shmipekika katsuktsina wanika
kachinika kika -waktsinika teko -
<f26r.2;F>         kiwana kishla shkipekika katsuktsina wanika
kachinika kika -waktsinika te -
<f26r.3;C>         keshla wotsika tsinika ketekeka katsuwokika
ketewanika kikate -kawopa koshla ko -
<f26r.3;F>         to keshla wotsika tsinika ketekeka katsupika
ketewanika kishte -ka wopa koshla ko -
<f26r.4;C>         unketsunika waneko kachinika unketsunika
kachinika waktsunika kishla kekishtu koshtekika -
<f26r.4;F>         unketsunika waneko kachinika unketsunika
kachinika waktsunika kishla kekishtu ko shtekika -
<f26r.5;C>         koshla wonika pika pika kowaka kishla tsinika
-unketsupika unketsunika tsina -
<f26r.5;F>         koshla wonika pika pika kowaka kishla tsinika
-unketsupika unketsunika tsina -
<f26r.6;C>         towanika unketsunika =
<f26r.6;F>         towanika unketsunika =
<f26r.7;C>         chupe unketsunika kishto wone kachuwakoniko ko
-shla -woshchuwanika Chuwaka kishte wanika koshto -
<f26r.7;F>         chuwake unketsunika kishto wone kachuwakoniko
ko -shla -woshchuwanika Chuwaka kishte wanika koshto -
<f26r.8;C>         kishla wonika unketsupika unkechipishto ko
-ketsukete kachinika unketsupika unmatsunika -
<f26r.8;F>         kishla wonika unketsupika unkechipishto ko
-ketsu kete kechinika unketsukenika unketsunika -
<f26r.9;C>         chiwanewoka kiwokika ketsunika waChika ko
-kika -kika -katsunwaka ketsupika waktsuka -
<f26r.9;F>         chiwane woka kipika ketsunika waChika ko -kika
-kika -katsunwaka ketsupika waktsu ka -
<f26r.10;C>        wonok shla woneko wanekika kechishte -
<f26r.10;F>        wonok shla woneko wanekika kechishte -

------------35116C7B32720--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 12 10:41:04 1997
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Dear all,

to follow a now established tradition, please try to place
the following text. Rather than prompting for replies
through the group, I give the explanation at the bottom,
after my signature. (but beware: don't say it out loud,
because you never know what may happen :-):


     eiris sazun idisi      sazun her duoder
[Image]
     suma hapt heptidun      suma heri lezidun
     suma clubodun      umbi cuoniouuidi
     insprinc haptbandun      inuar uigandun

     phol ende uuodan      uuorun zi holza
     du uuart demo balderes uolon      sin uuoz birenkit
     thu biguol en sinthgunt      sunna era suister
     thu biguol en friia      uolla era suister
     thu biguol en uuodan      so he uuola conda
     sose benrenki      sose bluotrenki
          sose lidirenki
     ben zi bena      bluot zi bluoda
     lid zi geliden      sose gelimida sin



Cheers, Rene



Answer:

Merseburger Zaubersprche (Magic spells from Merseburg)
in old high german. Note: 'uu' = 'w'
There is more on:
http://www.orion.org/ed/sgfschls/khs/ahd.htm


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 12 18:17:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:53:15 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
To: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Dear Douglas,

> I can provide up to 4-5 megabytes on my account. Does the work break down
> easily onto chunks of that size, or are there resonable dividing lines
for
> that? I presume much of this work is scanned handwritten material, yes?
Is
> there anything to be said for transcribing it into hypertext? 

Each of the pages scans at around 300 KB, so breaking them down into groups
of 1-5 MB is not much of a problem, and all we would have to do then is
post an index of the pages and their relative net locations, which seems to
me to be the best way to go, once the index has been approved or rewritten
by Denis Mardle and Jim Reeds.  Your space would provide about 1/4 of the
space needed in their present form, and we may even get the images smaller
than that.

As far as transcription, I have taken it upon myself to transcribe the
Strong's letters into text, which reduces the storage size to about 1/2 a
MB.  Copies of the original letters will be available upon request, an
offer that should satisfy purists like me.  I would want a text copy for
sure, but nothing other than the original work suits my taste when I begin
a study.

Your offer is most generous, and thank you for the assistance.  We will see
this thing on the net yet!!!  I'll be in touch soon.

Regards, Rayman 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 01:20:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:22:29 -0800
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Michael Kubecka <misha@crl.com>
Subject: Vajtswv txojlus
Status: OR

This is definitely not related to Voynichese, but every time I see
transliterations of Voynichese in the Roman alphabet (particularly John &
Sue Grove's transliterations), it vaguely reminds me of this.  I'm sure
someone will recognize the origin.


Lub laujkaub nyob qhovtwg.  Nyob saum lub rooj.  Koj lub vaj nyob qhovtwg.
Nyob tod.  Lub tsev no puas yog koj li.  Puas muaj lwm tus nrog koj nyob.
Tsis muaj.  Tsuas yog kuv pojniam menyuam xwb.  Kuv txiv nyob hauv moos.
Leejtwg nrog nws nyob.  Lub moos ntawd puas nyob deb.

Yog nej xav yuav ntawv hmoob, nej cia li sau ntawv xa tuaj rau lub qhovchaw
nyob uas sau nram qab no, peb yuav qhia rau nej paub tej ntawv nqi.  Yog
nej yuav ntawv phau twg peb zoo siab xa tuaj rau nej.


-- M. Kubecka


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 07:20:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:12:45 +0200
Subject: Re: besides the VMS: a bit of levity
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Hi!

> <ALTERNATIVE VIEW OF HISTORY> The Nazca Lines

 <snip>

> Today we have a *new article* from the good Father, concerning > those
mysterious images in Bolivia known as the Nazca Lines.

 <snip>

>What do you think?

I'd say, an alternate view of geography. Or has Bolivia decided they also
want Nazca lines, just like Peru?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 11:08:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:05:11 +0200
Subject: Karl's Program
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Dear all,

 > It seems to me that Karl's program could give us two important
 > capabilities we don't currently have:

 > 1)  Calculate the 2nd-order entropies of texts > 35K

 > 2) Calculate statistics on texts without regard to word divisions.

I'm not sure what's meant with nr.2. If you use VTT (available
at Gabriel's site) you can remove spaces from the transcription
files at will (and a few more things). Anyway...

 > Where do we stand on having a version of Karl's program that
 > will run on any  Unix system, and/or MS-DOS?

 Ahem,
 I have the source and once managed to build it on my
 Solaris W/S. At home no luck yet, but it is one of those
 things I just cannot get around to doing. And I'm not enough
 of a C expert to do it properly.
 If anybody else volunteered I'd be very happy...
 I could give some advice in the process too.

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 11:29:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:25:16 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Vajtswv txojlus
Status: OR

Michael Kubecka posts the following comment and text:

>This is definitely not related to Voynichese, but every time I see
transliterations of Voynichese in the Roman alphabet (particularly John &
Sue Grove's transliterations), it vaguely reminds me of this.  I'm sure
someone will recognize the origin.

Lub laujkaub nyob qhovtwg.  Nyob saum lub rooj.  Koj lub vaj nyob qhovtwg.
Nyob tod.  Lub tsev no puas yog koj li.  Puas muaj lwm tus nrog koj nyob.
Tsis muaj.  Tsuas yog kuv pojniam menyuam xwb.  Kuv txiv nyob hauv moos.
Leejtwg nrog nws nyob.  Lub moos ntawd puas nyob deb.

Yog nej xav yuav ntawv hmoob, nej cia li sau ntawv xa tuaj rau lub qhovchaw
nyob uas sau nram qab no, peb yuav qhia rau nej paub tej ntawv nqi.  Yog
nej yuav ntawv phau twg peb zoo siab xa tuaj rau nej.<

This language is Hmong, spoken in Laos. I posted on this topic a few weeks
ago. The language had no written form until about forty years ago, when
American missionary linguists invented the romanization used here. I think
this text has some modifications of the standard romanization.

Consonants precede the vowel or diphthong in open syllables. Doubling the
vowel indicates nasalization. The final symbol is not a consonant, but
represents one of about eight tones. The word "Hmoob" is how "Hmong" is
spelled in this orthographic system.

John and Sue Grove's Voynich transliteration, as I noted earlier, might be
compatible with a non-Roman orthography of this general form.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 07:05:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:38:55 -0800
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Subject: besides the VMS: a bit of levity
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Status: OR

Subject: 
            <ALTERNATIVE VIEW OF HISTORY> The Nazca Lines
       Date: 
I found this on soc.history.ancient:

            Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:43:00 GMT
       From: 
            aarghaeology@mindspring.com (The Father Von Berlitz Hour of
Power)
Organization: 
            Higher Society of Bedlam
 Newsgroups: 
            soc.history.ancient


Today we have a *new article* from the good Father, concerning those
mysterious images in Bolivia known as the Nazca Lines.  Were they for
ancient defense, or just an attempt to be funny on an intergalactic
scale?

Ye Olde Editor

[snip]

Yours

Reverend Colonel Ignatius Churchward Von Berlitz M.A. (Dom. Sci.)
Oxon. (Oklahoma)
[snip]

To subscribe:  Send e-mail to address above
  Write "subscribe-regular" or "subscribe-hidden" (if you're shy)

----------------------------------------------------------------

What do you think? 
Yes, of course, I did subscribe!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 16:32:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:26:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Karl's Program
In-Reply-To: <C1256459.0057F58D.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

>  > It seems to me that Karl's program could give us two important
>  > capabilities we don't currently have:
> 
>  > 1)  Calculate the 2nd-order entropies of texts > 35K
> 
>  > 2) Calculate statistics on texts without regard to word divisions.
> 
> I'm not sure what's meant with nr.2. If you use VTT (available
> at Gabriel's site) you can remove spaces from the transcription
> files at will (and a few more things). Anyway...

	I hadn't thought of that.  However, that wouldn't deal with groups
like M_8 , that is, letter groups across and including word boundaries.  I
don't think that TACT or anything but Karl's program will generate
statistics for groups like that.

	We've never been sure of what "word" boundaries mean! 
 
>  > Where do we stand on having a version of Karl's program that
>  > will run on any  Unix system, and/or MS-DOS?
> 
>  Ahem,
>  I have the source and once managed to build it on my
>  Solaris W/S. At home no luck yet, but it is one of those
>  things I just cannot get around to doing. And I'm not enough
>  of a C expert to do it properly.
>  If anybody else volunteered I'd be very happy...
>  I could give some advice in the process too.

	Karl has been good enough to make his program available for us. 
I'd do the work but I know next to nothing about C!  I'm sure it would
take very little time for anyone who knows C fairly well. 

	I'd appreciate it if someone *would* volunteer.  I thought we'd
put the Unix and/or MS-DOS executables on Gabriel's Web pages along with
our other tools. 

Cheers,
Dennis


From reeds Thu Mar 13 16:34:53 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9703131634.ZM13183@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:53 -0500
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Re: Karl's Program" (Mar 13, 16:26)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970313160942.16629A-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Subject: Re: Karl's Program
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

On Mar 13, 16:26, Dennis wrote:
> Subject: Re: Karl's Program
> On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> 
> 	Karl has been good enough to make his program available for us. 
> I'd do the work but I know next to nothing about C!  I'm sure it would
> take very little time for anyone who knows C fairly well. 
> 
>

I volunteer!  

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 20:35:04 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:35:30 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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These may be Frequently asked Questions from long ago, but I was
wondering if those who wrote encrypted texts in the 15th/16th century
commonly - provided visual clues to the text
	 - organized encrypted texts in seemingly context related 	segments
	 - encrypted texts as large as the VMs?

	All of the above don't seem like good cryptology to me...

	In the Interln.txt file is a description of the Dark Taurus page where
it states that the middle ring has 1 naked, 4 dressed people and the
outer ring has 2 naked, 8 dressed.
	Are the other zodiac people in/out of barrels 1 in 5? 
	Is the 1 in 5 ratio spaced as 1 in 5 ie.. 1 dressed 4 undressed, 	1
dressed, and so on?
	Are all the other months completely in barrels - and only pisces 
having some out of barrels?

				John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 22:59:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:57:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Distressing News from My Alma Mater
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    An article by the Associated Press, March 13, 1997:

    *Manuscript may hold words of Jesus*

    "KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Fragments of an ancient manuscript contain 
what may be lost statements of Jesus, a professor said Wednesday.
    
    "But it's nearly impossible to establish whether the text contains 
the actual words of Christ, said Paul Mirecki, an associate professor 
of religious studies at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kan.
    
    "'It can't be proven or disproven,' said Mirecki in a telephone 
interview.  'What we do know is that all this came from early 
Christian communities.' ... 

    "But the text contains sayings previously unknown, and it reflects 
the worldview of its Gnostic authors, a Christian minority group that 
placed a strong emphasis on the spiritual rather than the material 
world  ... 
    
     "The manuscript was found in Egypt and stored in Berlin's 
Egyptian Museum, where Mirecki says he uncovered it in 1991.  The text 
is written in Coptic, an ancient Egyptian language that uses Greek 
letters.
    
    "He is translating the text with another professor and they plan 
to publish a book this summer ...  
    
    "Some scholars contacted said they were skeptical because Mirecki 
has not shared the text with others in the field.
    
    "'If (Mirecki's claims) were true, New Testament circles would be 
buzzing for months.  Everyone would know about it,' said Eric Meyers, 
a Duke University professor who specializes in archaeology of early 
Palestine.

    "Mirecki said the manuscript was copied by a scribe in the fourth 
or fifth century; its contents were about two or three centuries old 
at that time ... "

---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    (Yes, I know about the Nag Hammadi codices.)
    
    I wonder if my alumni association would be impressed if I told them I
was working on the Voynich Manuscript? Somehow I doubt it <sigh>. 
    
Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 23:26:02 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Why is the VM encrypted?
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:25:26 -0500 (EST)
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A question about the VM which has always nagged me is this: what was
the _motive_ for encrypting it? To put it another way, who were the
intended audience (and non-audience) for it: who was supposed to be
able to read it and who was to be kept out?

Several possibilities that come to mind:

1. It was meaningful only to a small circle of "initiates" who 
would be given the key to read it.

2. It was designed to seem readable, but in fact not to be, perhaps
to conceal the fact that it is meaningless (e.g. if merely
cobbled up to be sold to Emperor Rudolph).

3. It was a labor of love by a couple of scribes, done merely for
the pleasure or beauty of doing it.
 

If #1 is the case, the scheme would likely be relatively simple,
to allow people to actually _read_ the text in real-time.

If #2, the text is probably uncrackable.

If #3, the encryption scheme could be either simple or complex,
depending on what the scribes enjoy most (reading or encrypting).

I think that not knowing the motivation of the encryption is one
of the major problems with trying to get a foothold in the VM.

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 23:47:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:30:43 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: VMS and KJV: did you know...
To: Martin McCarthy <marty@ehabitat.demon.co.uk>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I didn't offer any web space earlier as I didn't think that such small 
> amounts would be useful; however, if you're still needing space for some 
> of the pages then I have maybe 1.5-2Mb available should you wish.


Thank you Martin.

That size space would be a good place to hold the transcribed letters file,
and perhaps you might consider allocating your space for that specific use.
 Please let me know, and I will transmit if this suits you.

The indexing of the letters file is based on the dates of the letters,
which is to me the most logical indexing order.  I do not consider this
section to be in question as far as order is concerned, and it can be made
available immediately, should you desire.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 08:26:01 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:20:53 -0800
From: Luis Velez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve>
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Is anyone familiar with any attempts to submit the VMS to
ultramicroanalisys or proton probe tests of its organic features? I
wonder if Walter McCrone, who did that analysis for the 'Vinland' map,
has ever tried to get Yale to take a few submillimeter samples of it?

Luis
from Caracas
lvelez@telcel.net.ve

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 03:26:01 1997
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Hello John,

I couldn't help you on the cryptological questions,
but I've been looking at the zodiac pages again, recently.

The earlier pictures (looking in the order they appear in the MS)
have the nymphs partly in barrels. The first nine or ten in Pisces
seem to be crawling out of a barrel that's lying down.
The remaining Pisces nymphs and all nymphs in the next few
images are standing in a barrel. The suggestion of a birth
is rather strong (whether it be a person or the cosmos).
Furthermore, a link with the alchemical creation of a
homunculus (that should be homuncula I guess) cannot be
excluded. A few signs later (this is from memory, sorry
I can't be too precise), the barrels are gone. But the drawings
are also getting more crude, or hasty, so maybe the artist
just did not bother anymore to draw them.
A point against that possibility is the fact that in the
Gemini picture, a few of the nymphs are actually standing on
top of such a barrel (Brumbaugh's "ghosts riding the skies on
a surfboard").  There are more nymphs without a barrel than
with. Note that there are also one or two nymphs without
a star but this may have been an oversight by the artist.

The number 5 may play a role in the meaning of these images.
Brumbaugh saw the labels as more-or-less repeating groups
of five. If there is an astrological meaning to these pages,
something related to the decans might be expected (i.e. groups
of ten, or three nymphs being 'special').

Note further that:
- as we all know, Aries and Taurus are there twice,
  once dark and once light.
- Cancer has *two* lobsters, one dark, one light.
- Of libra's cups, one is dark, one is light
- Of Gemini, one person is dark, one light.
- Of Pisces, both fish are light (?!)
- Virgo is holding an ice cream in her left hand :-)

Cheers, Rene

    John.



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 03:44:02 1997
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Subject: Symposium on Rudolphine Science in Prague
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Dear all,

in the history of astronomy mailing list there was an
anouncement some time ago of a syposium to be held
in Prague, about technology and science in the times
of Rudolph. If anyone is interested in details I could
dig them up and supply them. The only immediate
interest I could imagine is:
- trying to get hold of some publication afterwards
- finding the name of an expert who might be willing
   to answer some questions (who gave Marci the VMs)

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 05:32:01 1997
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 05:29:22 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Stranger than Hmong....it's Latvian
Status: OR

Jacques Guy posts a sample of a language:

Savukart 1985. gada iru futbola kluba Portland Rovers lidzjutcji ar
parsteigumu pamanija, ka kluba spclctaji laukuma sak paradities
kaklasaitcs. Izradas, kads bagatnieks klubam bija novclcjis pamatigu
naudas summu ar nosacijumu, ka futbolisti vienmcr spclcs kaklasaitcs

This is Latvian. Closely allied to Lithuanian. These two Baltic languages are
called Slavic by some classifiers, and put in a separate Indo-European class
by others. There was at least one other language in the family, Old Prussian,
extinct about 200 years ago (Wendish does NOT belong to this group). Nearby
geographically, Estonian is unrelated, akin rather to Finnish.

I don't believe this orthography is standard. They may have conformed the
orthography - which has many diacriticals - to the limited character set of
the Internet, or the language may have had a recent orthographic reform I
don't know about.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 09:29:05 1997
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Subject: Re: Why is the VM encrypted?
To: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:27:31 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <m0w5OYb-001Z10C@umcc.umcc.umich.edu> from "Bruce Grant" at Mar 13, 97 11:25:26 pm
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> A question about the VM which has always nagged me is this: what was
> the _motive_ for encrypting it? To put it another way, who were the
> intended audience (and non-audience) for it: who was supposed to be
> able to read it and who was to be kept out?
> 
> Several possibilities that come to mind:
> 
> 1. It was meaningful only to a small circle of "initiates" who 
> would be given the key to read it.

There's another possibility related to #1. It could have been intended for
initiates whose knowledge of their belief system's specific "mysteries"
would be sufficient to know how to decipher the text once a simple basic
rule was known. Example: "Barrels are bad but women are good, ignore the
women in the barrels, but count the women by themselves. That's the key for
this page when you shift The Chant We All Know by that many characters." 

Or something more complex along the same lines. The difference between that
and your #1 would be that it might be possible for future initiates to pass
on the rule without having ever read the VMs. "If our Great Leader is lost
to us, our children will still be able to learn His Wisdom." 

In other words, they might have been planning for a break in the passing on
of at least some of their knowledge. 
-Adams


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 12:56:09 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
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   From Denis V Mardle                   14 March 1997

  Hello John and Rene

Does anyone else apart from Rene have access to all extant Zodiac pages ?
I believe they hold the key to the whole problem with help from pages with labels
elsewhere.         Mary D'Imperio gives a great deal of information on names of
stars, decans and much more  ( Alchemy symbols,  St. Hildegarde's Alphabet 
and Ignota Lingua, Enochian Alphabet and  sample texts eg DE - 'of your governments'  
MAD -  'of the same, your God'  Q - 'or'   and so on ,  Magical spells, Jakob 
Silvester's code (1526) etc.)    On page 89, fig. 11 we have Zodiac (Calender) 
information.   I don't know how accurate it is but  I give it below

Folio      Sign          Month      Rings of figures from center       Sum
                                                  First      Second   Third

70v2   Pisces           March       10  x         20  y                            29
                                                 n.hats       n.hats
70v1   Aries (dark)   April              5  y        10  y                            15 
                                                 n and c     n and c
71r      Aries(light)     April             5  y         10  y                            15
                                                  all c            all c
71v     Taurus(light)  May             5  y         10  y                            15
                                                  n and c     n and c
72r1     Taurus(dark)  May            5  y         10  z                            15
                                                    all c         n.hats
72r2     Gemini           June           9  z          16  z           5  z           30
                                                    all n          4c,rest n     n.hats
72r3     Cancer           July            7  z           11  z         12  z          30
                                                    n.hats        n.hats       n.hats 
72v3    Leo                August      12  z           18  z                          30
                                                    all n             all n
72v2    Virgo              September 12  z           18  z                         30
                                                     all n             all n
72v1     Libra              October     10  z           20  z                         30
                                                     n.hats        n.hats
73r        Scorpio          November  10  z           16  z            4  z       30  
                                                       all n            all n           all n
73v       Sagittarius      December  10  z           16  z            4  z       30 
                                                        all n            all n           all n
74r? 74v?    Capricorn and Aquarius       January and February are missing

n = naked   c = clothed   x = horizontal 'cans'  y = vertical 'cans'  z = no 'cans'

 Pisces has an extra star and label with the central fish making a 30 th label

Are there any clothed men ?  Are all the naked figures female  ?

 On Pisces one horizontal can points clockwise ( it is on the same radius as
the central star )  In fact the axis of the two stars , one from each fish goes
through the center and points to 1100     Central images seem to be off the 
horizontal deliberately.  Could we have this clarified and ring starting points
identified..  From the cans it is clear that inner rings come first.

  Only Pisces and Taurus(light) are transcribed in full.  Aries(dark), Aries(light),
Taurus(dark)  and Gemini only have labels transcribed . The rest have nothing.
Iam about to put my total version of Libra on to the Computer. I am also checking
Pisces carefully in conjunction with the fact that all it's star labels are different
despite the fact that  17 start OP, 8 start OF, 2 start 9, and one each OB, 2AE
and SX

  Happy transcribing                   Denis
      

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 13 23:17:01 1997
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:12:56 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Stranger than Hmong, yet closer
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Savukrt 1985. gad ru futbola kluba Portland Rovers ldzjutji ar
prsteigumu pamanja, ka kluba spltji laukum sk pardties
kaklasaits. Izrds, kds bagtnieks klubam bija novljis pamatgu
naudas summu ar nosacjumu, ka futbolisti vienmr spls kaklasaits.

Found on a site with country code lv
I think this is Lithuania (or Livonia?)

Definitely Indo-European, but by gum, finding c-cedillas where you
expect vowels to be is a bit of a shock. It also has long *vowel*
clusters, occasionally, which look like complete gibberish.
Let me fish for some...

Piemram, laika posm no pagju gadsimta beigm ldz kultras
lzumam pc Pirm pasaules kara vriei daudz vairk nek viu
sievas tins smaru mkoos
                       ^^^
                       look at that!

I know, I know, Dutch has "ideeen" and stuff like that, but THIS
language... pc indeed, can you imagine!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 21:32:02 1997
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From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:28:33 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Vajtswv txojlus
Status: OR

Dennis notes:

>I've read that Hmong also has a very large inventory of consonant
and vowel phonemes, that in fact it has one of the largest phonemic
inventories of any language.  I'd expect that many consonants would have
to be represented by double or triple Roman letters, but I don't see that
much of that in this text.  Any explanations?<

According to Wm A Smalley et al, Mother of Writing, (cited a few weeks ago)
the Hmong tend to think of their complex initial consonant clusters as single
sounds, and this modification of the standard orthography may reflect that.
Thus the Pahawh Hmong has only a single symbol for complex initial clusters
like ntsh.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 14 22:14:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:10:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Interesting Books
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970314220752.6295D-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
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    I just got an interesting book catalog:
    
        Pratum Book Company
        Catalog #33
        Post Box 985
        Healdsburg, California 95448
        United States of America
        Voice (707) 431-2634 
        FAX   (707) 431-0575
        
        knowledge@pratum.com
        http://www.pratum.com/
    
    Some stuff that looks interesting:
    
    Monastic Cryptology
    
    HISPERICA FAMINA:  The Garden of God.  The text is a highly 
unusual translation from the only known copy which is in the Vatican 
Library, Codex "A".  It is a long Latin poem, a monastic cryptographic 
work that is printed here in Latin with facing English translation.  
It concerns prophecy, occultism, astrology, Irish history, and much 
else.  There is extensive additional scholia that will be of 
particular interest to those who relish ancient mysteries of a 
linguistic, philological nature.  Cloth, $US 45.00 

        
    Junius, Manfred M. - THE PRACTICAL HANDBOOK OF PLANT ALCHEMY.  An 
Herbalist's Guide to Preparing Medicinal Essences, Tinctures, and 
Elixirs.  Healing Arts Press 1993 (1979 first published in Italian 
entitled 'Alchimia verde - Spagyrica vegetale'), 264 pp, 47 B&W plates 
and drawings of herbal extractions and and alchemical techniques, 
including equipment (furnaces, flasks, and condensers), and exact 
astrological horoscopes which influence spagyric works; notes and 
bibliography... A keystone for any practicing herbalist or alchemist 
and one of a handful to ever treat the laboratory procedures of 
alchemy seriously and comprehensively.  Paperback US$ 16.95.


    
    ...  and the one I keep harping on: Helene Smith's Martian 
language, produced under hypnosis - in English: 
    
    Flournoy, Theodore - FROM INDIA TO THE PLANET MARS.   A Case of 
Multiple Personality with Imaginary Language.  Edited by Sonu 
Shamdasani.  Princeton 1994, 335 p., preface by C.G. Jung.  This is 
the story of a medium who claimed to visit Mars and the Martians, 
painted landscapes of the Martian worlds, and transcribed the Martian 
alphabet (reproduced in full here).  Cloth US$ 49.50, paperback US$ 
16.95.   


    In general, a lot of stuff that looks interesting on alchemy, 
herbals, Lull, Dee, all the usual suspects.
    
Dennis
--------------------------------------------------

APPENDIX
An Altavista search on Hisperica Famina
(not terribly informative)


Herren, Michael W. "Editing the Hisperica Famina : A Reply." Cambridge 
Medieval Celtic Studies 17 (Summer 1989), 65-68. [II. Bibliographical 
and Manuscript Studies] 

Wright, Charles D. "The Three 'Victories' of the Wind: A Hibernicism 
in the Hisperica Famina , Collectanea Bedae , and the Old English 
Prose Solomon and Saturn Pater Noster Dialogue," Iriu 41 (1990), 13-
25. [V. Hiberno Latin and British Latin] 


P E R I T I A
Journal of the Medieval Academy of Ireland


Herren, Michael, The sighting of the host in Tain Bs Framch and the 
Hisperica Famina, 392-99 Peritia volume 1 1982 

BANGOR AND THE HISPERICA FAMINA

JANE STEVENSON

ABSTRACT. This article seeks to question the starting-point for 
discussing the Hisperica Famina given by the contents of Jenkinson's 
edition. The author examines Jenkinson's collection and concludes that 
the `A', `B', `C' and `D' texts of the Famina are authentically 
seventh-century Hiberno-Latin, `Adelphus adelpha' and `Rubisca' are 
probably tenth-century and written on the continent, while the Lorica 
is seventh-century but different in style. The author seeks to add to 
the genuine hisperic corpus a collect from the Antiphonary of Bangor, 
pointing out its links with the `B' text of the Famina and the De 
excidio Britanniae of Gildas, noting also that the Lorica is closely 
paralleled by an exorcism in the Antiphonary. The author consequently 
ends by concluding that Bangor is likely to be a main centre (if not 
the main centre) for this stylistic development. 

KEYWORDS: Medieval Latin, Hiberno-Latin, Greek, Latin style, Hisperica 
Famina, Lorica, Antiphonary of Bangor, Bangor, liturgy, collects, 
exorcism, Isidore, Laidcenn, Columbanus 

Jane Stevenson, Pembroke College, Cambridge CB1 1RF, England

9071 words Peritia 6-7 (1987-88) 202-16 Cork ISSN 0332-1592

Winterbottom, Michael/ Michael W. Herren (ed), The Hisperica Famina 
ii: Related poems (Studies and Texts 85). Toronto: Pontifical 
Institute of Mediaeval Studies. 1987. xvi + 226pp. CAD24. 331-32 





INSULAR LATIN IDAMA, IDUMA

DAVID HOWLETT 

ABSTRACT. This paper treats of the origin and use of Insular Latin 
idama, iduma `hand'. It occurs in Altus Prosator, a poem composed 
probably about the middle of the seventh century. The central word of 
a central line of its central stanza, spelled idama in all four of the 
oldest extant manuscripts, from the ninth and tenth centuries, 
correctly represents the vowel a, of yadaim, the dual form of yad 
`hand'. As open-topped a is easily confused with u in Insular 
minuscule script, the word is spelled iduma in three eleventh-century 
manuscripts, one of which glosses it correctly as manus and derives it 
correctly from Hebrew. In the form iduma it appears in Laidcenn's 
Lorica and in the Hisperica Famina, in which it is also glossed 
correctly. It is used in English charters of the tenth and (possibly) 
eleventh centuries in the same sense as in Altus Prosator. 

KEYWORDS: Insular Latin, Hebrew, Greek, Altus Prosator, Hisperica 
Famina, Laidcend, Aldhelm, Anglo-Saxon charters, idama, iduma. 

David Howlett, Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources, 
Bodleian Library, Oxford OX1 3BG. howlett@vax.ox.ac.uk 

3477 words Peritia 9 (1995) 72-80 Turnhout: Brepols ISBN 2-503-50468-X


Celtica 15 (1983)
Cecile O'Rahilly memorial volume 
Contents

Book reviews, pp. 158-88 

The Hisperica Famina: I the A-text
Michael W. Herren
Padraig A. Breatnach 


Celtica 8 (1968)

Contents

On the Hisperica famina
Michael Winterbottom
pp. 126-39 


http://www.mayo-ireland.ie/Mayo/Towns/MayAbbey/MyoAlive/Mag1096/AbbyTalk.htm

By the seventh century, Ireland was a well-known place of study, 
retreat and learning for English monks. Bede says of them 'At that 
time there were many of the English race, both nobles and lesser 
persons, in Ireland. During the time of bishops Finan and Colman they 
left their native island and had settled there for the grace of 
reading the scriptures or of leading a more disciplined life'. Plummer 
notes this as a 'resort from Britain to Ireland for the purposes of 
study or devotion'. Likewise, the first poem in the Hisperica Famina, 
(if Ireland is indeed the setting) may reflect an influx of such early 
medieval 'wandering scholars'. 




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 15 06:11:01 1997
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  Hello Denis,

> Does anyone else apart from Rene have access to all
> extant Zodiac pages ?

All owners of either the Yale photocopy or a photocopy of
Petersen's hand transcription, have the complete set. If you
have neither, I'm afraid you are part of a small minority
group who doesn't.
The Yale copy is best to get a clear view of the layout.
Petersen has transcribed the Voynich text from a better
copy, so he has valuable factual information to add. In
addition to this there are many of his interpretations.

> Could we have this clarified and ring starting points
> identified..  From the cans it is clear that inner rings
> come first.

We cannot be certain about the ring starting points. Petersen
has made some guesses, and these will generally be followed
in the EVMT. He has also labelled each nymph (i.e. assigned
an ID number), so as long as we stick to that, we can at
least communicate without confusion.
>From his interpretation, the starting point is usually located
not at the top of each ring, but to the left of it (clock
position 10:00 to 11:00 -ish).

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 15 06:35:02 1997
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Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 06:33:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Re Re: FAQs
In-Reply-To: <C125645B.003C53EC.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> The Yale copy is best to get a clear view of the layout.

	FWIW.  I bought the Yale  *microfilm*, as  opposed to the
copyflow, and I'm glad I did!  Viewed on a microfilm viewer, it's usually
the clearest set of images I have, including my Xeroxes of Newbold.
Unfortunately, the rosettes in f85/86 are rather unclear.

	Of course, on a microfilm viewer you can focus it on different
portions of the image as you  wish.  

Dennis


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   From Denis V Mardle              March 15 1997

  The correct counts for starts of labels on PISCES are 16 of OP, 8 of OF, 2 of 9F and
one each of OB, SX, 8OE and 2AE

  For the record, equivalent figures for LIBRA are  5 of OP, 7 of OF, 7 of OCC, 2 of O8
and 9P with one each of OQ, OY, 9F, 9B, SO, AN and AM  The high figure for OCC is
interesting.  OCC2 ( at position 1200 ) wears a crown ( ? an important star ) .  The other
six are OCCAE, OCC9, OCCO89, OCCOP9, OCCO2 and OCCCO2      
  I am begging to believe strongly in the idea that we are seeing code values for lists
of stars, herbs, plants, etc based on a page, row, column numbering system with
multiple entries in the cells, perhaps alternatives having the same first or first and
second letter   eg 22,3,7 stands for Mars,Marjoram,Marigold or Man - the context
making it obvious which one to choose.  This might, or might not be easier than
Enochian which is clearly a single meaning two-part code ( as against my  suggestion
of a multiple meaning one-part code ) .

    Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 15 15:38:01 1997
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     From Denis V Mardle                15 March 1997

  Dennis writes

<<<<On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> The Yale copy is best to get a clear view of the layout.

<	FWIW.  I bought the Yale  *microfilm*, as  opposed to the
<copyflow, and I'm glad I did!  Viewed on a microfilm viewer, it's usually
<the clearest set of images I have, including my Xeroxes of Newbold.
<Unfortunately, the rosettes in f85/86 are rather unclear.

<	Of course, on a microfilm viewer you can focus it on different
<portions of the image as you  wish.  

<Dennis     >>>>>>>>>

 Any other views on the best copies to use  ?     How easy is it to read circular
scipt, diagonal script, upside down script , vertical script etc using a microfilm
reader even with zoom facilities ?  Which version of the rossettes is best -
M D'Imperio's better than older copies - it is a photostatic version ( How large ?)
as against microfilm or  copyflow ?

I've also had from Rene

<  Hello Denis,

<> Does anyone else apart from Rene have access to all
<> extant Zodiac pages ?

<All owners of either the Yale photocopy or a photocopy of
<Petersen's hand transcription, have the complete set. If you
<have neither, I'm afraid you are part of a small minority
<group who doesn't.
<The Yale copy is best to get a clear view of the layout.
<Petersen has transcribed the Voynich text from a better
<copy, so he has valuable factual information to add. In
<addition to this there are many of his interpretations.

<> Could we have this clarified and ring starting points
<> identified..  From the cans it is clear that inner rings
<> come first.

<We cannot be certain about the ring starting points. Petersen
<has made some guesses, and these will generally be followed
<in the EVMT. He has also labelled each nymph (i.e. assigned
<an ID number), so as long as we stick to that, we can at
<least communicate without confusion.
<From his interpretation, the starting point is usually located
<not at the top of each ring, but to the left of it (clock
<position 10:00 to 11:00 -ish).

<Cheers, Rene   >>>>>>>>

  I do seem to be in the minority or am I ?  At least I have the microfilm and double
real size prints for the British Museum ( BL ) incomlete material less two pairs of
isolated pages  that Jim G had on his copies, plus copies of Newbold's plates
and Tiltman's ( not all that good as they are copies of copies of copies. His plate
10 is , I think, Scorpio but is practically unreadable.  I do have a few other sources
but not the one's I need.   It looks as though I'll have to get the Yale microfilm
even if I have to stand on my head to read it ( and that is difficult as I am in a 
wheelchair ! )  

  As far as Ring starts go  ARIES dark probably starts at 0900 whereas ARIES light
has markers on two rings at 1000  with the central image sloped accordingly.  Note
how the nakedness and pale cans go with the dark central image and clothed
plus dark cans on the light one.    Does Petersen comment on the colour of the
cans, their designs and the clothing ?    TAURUS light looks like 1000 and PISCES
should be 1100 if my central star line up theory is correct.   LIBRA has one ring
marked at 0830  PISCES has 14 fancy patterns under the 10 horizontal cans.
  Where are Petersen's nymph labels and the label transcriptions to go with them ?
I presume these are on computer file somewhere ?

     Cheers   Denisf

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 15 15:59:01 1997
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Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:54:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Hisperica Famina
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    Executive summary: don't waste time on this!

    I found an edition and English translation with a foreword of 
Codex A of the Hisperica Famina.  They were written probably AD 650-
660, probably in Ireland.  They are in an odd form of early medieval 
Latin.  The language is highly abtruse and literary.  It contains a 
fair number of Greek and Old Irish borrowings and retains many 
phonological features of Vulgar Latin.  

    The Hisperica Famina are an assorted collection.  There is an 
opening dialog, a description of the scholars' workday, and brief 
compositions on various subjects.  The editor quotes someone else: "It 
seems most likely that we have to deal with something analogous to the 
'golden book' of the Classsical side of a school of today - a book for 
entering such compositions in prose or verse written by the students 
as are judged to be of outstanding merit."  He then adds, "Of course 
we cannot establish with certainty whether these are actual student 
compositions or 'essays' written by the masters themselves."  Thus 
these are examples for teaching this odd form of Latin.   

    The editor never says a single thing about any cipher.  Although 
there are many mysteries about the Hisperica Famina, these are 
philological, historical, and cultural rather than cryptological.  
    
    An example:
    
                 About the Wind 

    This rustling wind destroys the sacred oaks, 
it bends the aged ilexes to their earthen furrows,
denudes the round buildings with its powerful blasts,
wears down high-peaked roofs, 
guides the blue sea toward the land, 
and raises the watery spray to the stars. 
Auster harries the blue sea.
The physical philosophers maintain that the winds are twelve,
and in that place they examine the four winds,
to which the alternate groaning winds are connected;
and even as they conceal their submissive wings,
they blow out of the vast aether into the pit of the world.
The roaring wind has collected three triumphs:
because it bore away the foamy deluge in a huge flood,
was able to carry off the powerful tidal wave,
and overthrew bodily forms with its effect.
Nor can it be seen, even though it whistles.
And the Ruler of the Universe on high
out of the whirring wings of the aforesaid wind
shall accuse the human throng of guilt.

    And the Latin:

               De uento 

    Hic sonoreus alma mactat sepherus robora,
aniosas terrestribus plicat ilices sulcis,
turrita robustis spoliat tugoria flabris,
superna cacuminum frictat laquearia,
tithica flectit telluri cerula
ac marinas exaltat in astra spumas.
Claucicomantem fatigat auster tithonem.
Bis senos phisici ecferunt zephiros
et quaternos ibi explora<n>t euros,
quis alterni inherent crepitu not[h]i;
et uelut subiectas opacant alas,
mundanum uasto aethere proflant in follum.
Trina mormoreus pastricat trophea not[h]us:
quod spumaticum rapuit tol<l>o diluuium,
pollentemque tonuit rapere dodrantem,
ac corporeas perculit tactu effigies;
nec sibilans intueri queat procella.
Altusque poli rector
mormorantibus degesti de pennis euri
gibrosum reamine censebit lochum.

    Michael W. Herren, *The Hisperica Famina: I. The A-Text:  A New  
Critical Edition with English Translation and Philological 
Commentary.*  Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies: Studies & 
Texts, No. 31.  (Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, Toronto, 
1974.)  ISBN 0-88844-031-6  [About the Wind: pp. 102-3] 




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 15 17:05:01 1997
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Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:56:47 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Hisperica Famina
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>     Executive summary: don't waste time on this!
> 
>     The editor never says a single thing about any cipher. 

I never knew an editor that did mention cipher.  This never changed the
fact that many of the ancient manuscripts published are loaded with cipher
of one sort or another.

 Although there are many mysteries about the Hisperica Famina, these are 
> philological, historical, and cultural rather than cryptological.

Since I seem to be a person with a predisposition toward wasting my time on
useless projects, I might point out a couple of things that interest me
about this subject.

They are in an odd form of early medieval 
> Latin.  The language is highly abtruse and literary.  It contains a 
> fair number of Greek and Old Irish borrowings and retains many 
> phonological features of Vulgar Latin.  

The question of language and spelling is an identifier for certain types of
cipher.  The mixture of more than one language is yet another.  Although
neither proves the existence of cipher, both are indicative of hidden text,
and would make the cryptologist at least put the text through some standard
tests before dismissing it as unimportant.

"  Thus these are examples for teaching this odd form of Latin.   

If this odd form of Latin was indeed taught, where are the other
corresponding writings that it generated?  If they exist then this is
probably a correct assumption.  If there are no other examples, the purpose
for this odd form of Latin could well have been to communicate something
else.

Can you provide me with an unedited version of the Latin text so I can feed
it through my programs?  Punctuation and Latin characters found in the
original would have to be properly noted.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar 16 20:41:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:37:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Hisperica Famina
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On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, rmalek wrote:

> >     The editor never says a single thing about any cipher. 
> 
> I never knew an editor that did mention cipher.  This never changed the
> fact that many of the ancient manuscripts published are loaded with cipher
> of one sort or another.

    This could be the sort of thing that the version of Hisperica 
Famina in the Pratum Book Company catalogue was aiming at.  Their 
catalogue is at http://www.pratum.com/   .  

    However, there has been a lot of scholarly work on the Hisperica 
Famina, at least a hundred years worth.  Herren remarks, for instance, 
that "the mistakes [in Codex A] due to paleographical confusion have 
long been sorted out."  (p. 11)   It would seem unwise to ignore all 
that work.  

    It's obviously difficult;  Herren quotes one comment that "there 
are some critics whose appropriate occupation in purgatory would be an 
attempt to edit the Hisperica Famina." (p. 3)  !!! 
 
> If this odd form of Latin was indeed taught, where are the other
> corresponding writings that it generated?  If they exist then this is
> probably a correct assumption.  If there are no other examples, the purpose
> for this odd form of Latin could well have been to communicate something
> else.

    The type of Latin involved is called Hiberno-Latin or Insular 
Latin.  Herren mentions works called Lorica, Rubisca, and Adelphus 
Adelpha Meter that use the same type of Latin.  He mentions the 
Epitomae and Epistolae of one Virgilius Maro Grammaticus, the works of 
Isidore of Seville, and De Ordine Creaturarum by pseudo-Isidore as 
possible sources; these were composed in the early 600s AD. 
 
> Can you provide me with an unedited version of the Latin text so I can feed
> it through my programs?  Punctuation and Latin characters found in the
> original would have to be properly noted.

    If you want to work on this, I'd suggest getting a copy of 
Herren's edition.  He has a very complete set of notes for his 
edition.  Beyond that, you would have to get a microfilm or other 
images of the original.  Codex A is in the Vatican.   Here's the 
reference on Herren again. 

    Michael W. Herren, *The Hisperica Famina: I. The A-Text:  A New  
Critical Edition with English Translation and Philological 
Commentary.*  Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies: Studies & 
Texts, No. 31.  (Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, Toronto, 
1974.)  ISBN 0-88844-031-6  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 12:35:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 01:24:56 -0800
From: Luis Velez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve>
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I would be very grateful if someone could suggest tips for finding
sources on John Wilkins' Analytical Language.
Thank you in advance,

Luis
from Caracas
lvelez@telcel.net.ve

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 10:17:03 1997
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     From Denis V Mardle            17 March 1997

     Part of     <<<    Another opening word        on   Tue, 18 Feb 97 16:08:19 GMT was

<   Now to the 'opening' word on f57v.  There is a start line across the 4 rings and outside it at 
the right 'start' or 'begin' place we have 8ATAE.  One would like to find this on similar pages 
with possible start areas, but if my run was correct the word is not on the Currier file that I had 
downloaded.  8ATAE  is probably a word of type 2) with numbers denoting syllables or longer 
stretches of symbols.   >>>

  I have now done a run on extra pages from the interln.txt file and EUREKA we have 8ATAE
on line 19 of f66r with its 34 long vertical key sequence  AND 8AT.AE ( the space is by no
means certain )  starting the middle ring of text on f67r1.        On line 19 of f66r we have 
rather odd text     2AT.OE.8AM.8AM.8AE.8OE.SCO89.8AT.AE9.8ATAE.8OEAR.Z9.8OR-
and on f67r1 the middle ring ends   8AR.AE89.  There is a cross-like symbol at the middle
row start which is not on the inner or outer row start.        I intend to look closer at both
these pages and f57v.    I reckon that a hoax has now gone down in likelihood by a large
amount.

                                Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 10:32:03 1997
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Subject: New Edition of Kahn
To: voynich@rand.org (Voynich Manuscript List)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:22:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
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In case anyone doesn't know, there is a new edition of David Kahn's
_The_Codebreakers_. Kahn has updated it and added new material to reflect
greater knowledge of now-unclassified WWII material, as well as
observations on the encryption debate and other current topics. 

I only flipped through it this weekend at San Diego Technical Books, not
having the US$65 handy for it. But even casually glancing at the new
material at the end I caught a mention of the VMs, so it seems he's devoted
a little more attention to it.

Anyone else out there actually read it yet to provide more details?
-Adams Douglas

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 11:02:02 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:56:49 +0000
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Subject: Circles & start marks.
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Status: OR

Hi all,
I am going through the transcription of the first circles in the MS. 
I have noticed that most (don't know if all) circles seem to mark 
quite clearly where the writing has started.
Most of these have vertical (well... radial) lines which seem to 
mark  where to start  within the rings. Other times there is a large 
empty gap suggesting the same thing. A few of these marks appear at 
the NW of the circle (around 10 o'clock).

I wonder if this has anything to do with the decoding (reading?) 
of the text., meaning that there has to be a signal for decoding. 
I thought that it could be something like "start here", or otherwise 
is not easy to know where to put a "key"?

It could also be that the author just wanted to find easy the 
beginning of the text...
Any further ideas?

Regards,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 11:38:04 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199703171635.IAA18867@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: New Edition of Kahn
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Status: ORr

> Anyone else out there actually read it yet to provide more details?

Yes -- I bought it, hoping for the kind of augmentation Knuth gave to
the second edition of The Art of Computer Programming, volume II.  I
understand there were some minor changes made in the text to reflect
typos fixed in editions after the first, but the new material is only
a cursory 16-page chapter at the end.  It adds a page on the Liberty,
another on the Pueblo, eight pages on Enigma, three on DES, one on
public-key, and a very interesting closing few paragraphs.  The punch
line is that cryptology is nearly dead -- that except for mistakes by
code clerks the time of serious cryptanalysis is almost past.  However,
the new material includes none of the footnotes that would bring it to
the scholarly level of the rest of the book, and the enormous historical
revelations of the past three decades have been given short shrift.  There
are reasons: one is that Kahn covers much of the Enigma work in another book;
the VENONA declassification is too recent for him to deal with here; and the
massive "New Directions" advances are too current to be treated thoroughly
in a historical book.  However, all in all these 16 unfootnoted pages seem
thin for the price.

If you don't have an earlier edition of The Codebreakers, though, it's
definitely a must-buy: nothing else comes close for general scholarship,
thoroughness, and readability.  That's my opinion, anyway -- I understand
Friedman's copy has many rude remarks and "WRONG!" strewn throughout
the margins... and then again, perhaps his strong reaction was partly
because it's the book Friedman thought he and Elizebeth should have been
allowed to write.

	Jim Gillogly

P.S.  It's available discounted from Gary Rasmussen of Classical Crypto Books.
The discount is deeper if you join the American Cryptogram Association [plug].
His address is RagyR@aol.com.

From reeds Mon Mar 17 11:49:49 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9703171149.ZM428@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:49:49 -0500
In-Reply-To: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
        "Re: New Edition of Kahn" (Mar 17,  8:35)
References: <199703171635.IAA18867@zendia.mentat.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly), voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: New Edition of Kahn
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On Mar 17,  8:35, Jim Gillogly wrote:
> Subject: Re: New Edition of Kahn
> 
> If you don't have an earlier edition of The Codebreakers, though, it's
> definitely a must-buy: nothing else comes close for general scholarship,
> thoroughness, and readability.  That's my opinion, anyway -- I understand
> Friedman's copy has many rude remarks and "WRONG!" strewn throughout
> the margins... and then again, perhaps his strong reaction was partly
> because it's the book Friedman thought he and Elizebeth should have been
> allowed to write.
> 
> 
I concur with everything Jim says.  I have seen Friedman's annotated copy,
and have heard Kahn say that Elizebeth told him (after her husband's death)
that Friedman was upset precisely because of this reason.

I doubt, however, that Friedman could have written so encyclopedic a book.
Given the slightest oportunity he seemed to delve very deeply into very
narrow questions, so he would never have come up with a finished draft.
If he and Kahn had been allowed to work together (an impossibility, I know,
but one can wish) and if he had lived longer, and had the health to travel
to libraries, etc, what a book they might have written!



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From reeds Mon Mar 17 12:37:48 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9703171237.ZM9219@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:37:47 -0500
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Subject: Voynich
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

On Mar 17,  1:24, Luis Velez wrote:
> Subject: John Wilkins' Analytical Language
> I would be very grateful if someone could suggest tips for finding
> sources on John Wilkins' Analytical Language.
> Thank you in advance,
> 
> Luis
> from Caracas
> lvelez@telcel.net.ve
>-- End of excerpt from Luis Velez

Try Eco's "The Search of the Perfect Language", a recently published
survey on this & similar subjects.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From adamsd@cts.com  Mon Mar 17 14:02:02 1997
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Subject: Re: New Edition of Kahn
To: reeds@research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:07:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org (Voynich Manuscript List)
In-Reply-To: <9703171149.ZM428@research.att.com> from "Jim Reeds" at Mar 17, 97 11:49:49 am
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Thanks for the reviews. Even though I have a first edition hardcover of
Kahn, I think I'll get the new one so the old one can remain in fairly
good condition (it was a collector's copy).

It sounds like we're all fortunate that Kahn did get to write the book,
since if Friedman were still alive he'd probably still be writing it. :)
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 18:47:04 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199703172345.PAA19152@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Cryptology dead? (Re: New Edition of Kahn)
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Status: OR

> >   The punch
> > line is that cryptology is nearly dead -- that except for mistakes by
> > code clerks the time of serious cryptanalysis is almost past. 
> 
> Is it? This reminds me of the claims, about a century ago, that
> science had discovered all there was to discover.

That was the head of the US Patent Office, wasn't it?
> 
> While musing about the VMS, it occurred to me that one could build
> a very large number of languages. A message could be enciphered,
> rather, translated, into language X, and transmitted to the other end.
> Would it be feasible to decipher that message in the absence of
> an English-to-X dictionary and of the grammatical rules of X?

Sounds like a tough challenge -- have any paleographers cracked a
totally unknown language?

> I think that it would be exceedingly difficult. Aren't we
> experiencing this very problem with the VMS?

I don't know what problem we're experiencing with the VMs, but that's
certainly one of the strong contenders.

>                                        Didn't the US 
> use Navajo speakers to "encipher" messages during WWII?

Yes.

>                                                                 Is
> cryptology really dead?

Kahn's contention is not that we're now able to decrypt everything,
but rather the reverse: that it's now to the point where the codemakers
should be able to beat the codebreakers.

For what it's worth, I agree with him... at least until we get general
purpose quantum computers.  And then maybe quantum cryptography will
bail us out.

	Jim Gillogly

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 18:47:05 1997
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Subject: Re: Cryptology dead? (Re: New Edition of Kahn)
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:45:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <332EDE70.3CDF@trl.telstra.com.au> from "Jacques Guy" at Mar 18, 97 10:26:56 am
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> Jim Gillogly wrote:
>   
> >   The punch
> > line is that cryptology is nearly dead -- that except for mistakes by
> > code clerks the time of serious cryptanalysis is almost past. 
>...
> Would it be feasible to decipher that message in the absence of
> an English-to-X dictionary and of the grammatical rules of X?
> I think that it would be exceedingly difficult. Aren't we
> experiencing this very problem with the VMS? Didn't the US 
> use Navajo speakers to "encipher" messages during WWII? Is
> cryptology really dead?

Sounds like he means (without having read the book yet) that
_cryptanalysis_ is dead or moribund. I'm sure the skill of creating ever
more complex encipherment schemes using more powerful hardware and
algorithms is alive and well. But it's harder and harder to crack anything
unless someone is careless or makes a mistake.

No one ever intercepted and deciphered the Navajo "code-talkers" messages,
to my knowledge.
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 23:32:03 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Code-talkers
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:27:43 -0500 (EST)
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Adams Douglas recently wrote:
> No one ever intercepted and deciphered the Navajo "code-talkers" messages,
> to my knowledge.
> -Adams
> 
I recently saw a documentary about the "code-talkers" which pointed out  
something I didn't realize: when the code-talker units were formed, the 
Navajo soldiers spent the first few months developing a code among themselves
for various military topics (probably because there were no appropriate
terms in standard Navajo e.g. for a battleship). I believe that many of
the terms were ordinary ones used in a specialized way, which would
represent an additional level of obscurity on top of the Navajo language
per se.

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 23:41:02 1997
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Message-Id: <m0w6qeo-001Z0KC@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: Why is the VM encrypted?
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:37:54 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <m0w5XxD-0000OhC@crash.cts.com> from "Adams Douglas" at Mar 14, 97 06:27:31 am
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Adams Douglas recently wrote:
> Or something more complex along the same lines. The difference between that
> and your #1 would be that it might be possible for future initiates to pass
> on the rule without having ever read the VMs. "If our Great Leader is lost
> to us, our children will still be able to learn His Wisdom." 
> 
> In other words, they might have been planning for a break in the passing on
> of at least some of their knowledge. 
> -Adams

This leads into the other thing that has always bothered me about the VM:
the VM script is attractive, easy to write and to recognize, as if it were
the result of long usage - so why hasn't anyone ever found another scrap
of text written in it anywhere in the world?

If the VM was encrypted for a group of "initiates" it is hard to believe
that the group was more than a handful of people.

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 09:44:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:40:32 -0800
From: Luis Velez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve>
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>Sounds like a tough challenge -- have any paleographers cracked a
> totally unknown language?

I read somewhere that pre-Elamite language is also awaiting for
the kiss of the paleographer to break the spell...

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 05:05:02 1997
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Subject: Re: Code-talkers
To: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 02:02:00 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <m0w6qUy-001Z0KC@umcc.umcc.umich.edu> from "Bruce Grant" at Mar 17, 97 11:27:43 pm
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> Navajo soldiers spent the first few months developing a code among themselves
> for various military topics (probably because there were no appropriate
> terms in standard Navajo e.g. for a battleship). I believe that many of
> the terms were ordinary ones used in a specialized way, which would
> represent an additional level of obscurity on top of the Navajo language
> per se.

Yes, a book I read on them gave an example of what they would do to spell
out words or names not already in the code: They had a list of words they
could use for spelling--several per letter--which were nouns for objects
and concepts that _in_English_ started with that letter. Thus, you could
spell CAR as <Navajo for Cat><Navajo for Apple><Navajo for Rat>. The nice
thing would be you could make a sentence if you wished using those three
words in order and the receiver would recognize everything as nulls except
those three words.

I've got some Navajo blood, but I confess I checked out a book on the
language once and my eyes went very wide when I opened it, so I took it
back. :)

ObVMs: If the VMs is in Navajo, the alphabet cannot be phonetic.
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 07:53:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:49:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
cc: Bruce Grant <bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers
In-Reply-To: <m0w6viS-00002eC@crash.cts.com>
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	In addition to what's been said:

        I've done a little reading about this.  We did indeed do this, and
apparently the Japanese never broke it.  (I don't think it was used in the
European war.)

        Navaho is said to be an extremely complex language.  Prior to the
white man, it had no written literature.  However, it has an extensive
oral literature of religious rituals.  The Navaho codetalkers invented a
jargon for military terms and for spelling out Japanese names that they
memorized and never set down on paper.  

        Navaho codetalkers usually worked in pairs who knew each others.
It is said to be virtually impossible for someone who hasn't grown up with
the language to speak it and pass as a native.  

        All these things made it effective under those circumstances.
Kahn discusses the Navaho codetalkers some, and more details have come out
over the years.  In Arizona I saw a painting commemorating the Navaho
codetalkers.  

        With the VMs we don't have the personal voice recognition factor
to worry about.  However, it seems to me that we have all the other
factors to worry about (unknown language, no written keys, no other
written literature for comparison).  Hopefully, Voynichese isn't as
complex as Navaho!

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 08:02:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:57:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jim Gillogly <jimg@mentat.com>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Totallly Unknown Language
In-Reply-To: <199703172345.PAA19152@zendia.mentat.com>
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On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Jim Gillogly wrote:

> > Is it? This reminds me of the claims, about a century ago, that
> > science had discovered all there was to discover.
> 
> That was the head of the US Patent Office, wasn't it?

	Lord Kelvin also made that claim.

> Sounds like a tough challenge -- have any paleographers cracked a
> totally unknown language?

	I can't think of any examples.  Etruscan is close.  There are some
bilinguals of Etruscan with Latin, Greek, and Punic, but they're very
brief.  Of course, Etruscan is written in a known alphabet, so one can
note borrowings from Greek, etc.  There are Etruscan inscriptions on
paintings, monuments, etc. which give clues to meaning.  Such progress as
has been made with Etruscan (limited) makes use of all those things.  

	The big problem with Etruscan is that there just isn't much
material to work with.  We don't have that problem with the VMs!  

	However, if the language underlying the VMs is completely unknown
and unaffiliated, we're in big trouble!

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 08:17:02 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:14:25 +0000
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Status: OR

Hi all,
Michael Kubecka kindly translated the True Type files I produced 
(Hand A) in EVA, Frogguy and Currier alphabets to the TT format 
supported by the Macintosh.

The file (with all the fonts: TT (Win & Mac) & Type 1 for Win and 
Unix) is in the EVMT page.
There is also a  key map gif file and the instructions to install them 
(readme.mac).
Click here to download the whole thing (227 KB):

http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/vfonts.zip

regards,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 11:17:03 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Code-talkers
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   From  Denis  V  Mardle

Dennis   says in      Tue, 18 Mar 97 12:49:48 GMT  

<        With the VMs we don't have the personal voice recognition factor
<to worry about.  However, it seems to me that we have all the other
<factors to worry about (unknown language, no written keys, no other
<written literature for comparison).  Hopefully, Voynichese isn't as
<complex as Navaho!

    I am optimistic that we can make progress on the VMs by treating the words
as code ( or nomenclator ) words ( or parts of longer words  )  using the positions
at which rare words repeat.  My first example is in  ' 8ATAE is not alone' which
is gaining evidence that it means 'begin' or 'start' or anything meaning the same
in any language.   I also believe that there are strange words ( in the language
or in a foreign one ) that need to be spelt out using individual symbols or short
phonetic elements.    To study these we need to look for long strings of short
words.  Of course the 'keys' on f49v, f57v, f66r,f69r and f76v are special cases,
but ones that demonstrate that AT, AM and AR and surely others like AE,OE 
etc. have to be single 'characters'. which could include small numbers.
         If we have a one-part code then spelling can be done by reference to the
page and row if all the words start with the same letter.   If the ( small ) code-book
is divided by subject the tendency is to use pages within one area for spelling.   I see 
no reason why 8AM cannot refer to page 8 row AM,   2SOR to page 2S row OR
etc.  Single symbols may be simple substitutions.   'Keys'  could represent changes
by pages ( note that f57v and f66r are 17 pages apart if, as is likely, the missing folios
are 2 pages each ).     I do wish, however, that I could get a clear cut mapping of
the parts of a word .  Of course the word 'table' might be two words joined as 'tab'le'
or 't''able'.   The possibility of such word splitting habits may account for hand A and
hand B being different statistically without the language being different.

  Any further ideas ?                       
                                            Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 17 18:32:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:26:56 -0800
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Subject: Cryptology dead? (Re: New Edition of Kahn)
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Jim Gillogly wrote:
  
>   The punch
> line is that cryptology is nearly dead -- that except for mistakes by
> code clerks the time of serious cryptanalysis is almost past. 

Is it? This reminds me of the claims, about a century ago, that
science had discovered all there was to discover.

While musing about the VMS, it occurred to me that one could build
a very large number of languages. A message could be enciphered,
rather, translated, into language X, and transmitted to the other end.
Would it be feasible to decipher that message in the absence of
an English-to-X dictionary and of the grammatical rules of X?
I think that it would be exceedingly difficult. Aren't we
experiencing this very problem with the VMS? Didn't the US 
use Navajo speakers to "encipher" messages during WWII? Is
cryptology really dead?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 17:41:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:43:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
X-Sender: dalford@haywire
To: Bruce Grant <bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers
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Most important to remember here is that when they came up with the new
terms, they were probably VERBS! That's another huge reason nobody else
could decrypt Navajo: (1) "civilized" people expect that everyone uses
nouns like European languages do -- and since these were United States'
messages, that's what they "should" be doing since we can't make sense out
of anything without nouns; (2) these were not merely artificially
encrypted languages but full-blown language/thinking/culture systems that
came with no Rosetta Stone.

warm regards, moonhawk



On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Bruce Grant wrote:

> Adams Douglas recently wrote:
> > No one ever intercepted and deciphered the Navajo "code-talkers" messages,
> > to my knowledge.
> > -Adams
> > 
> I recently saw a documentary about the "code-talkers" which pointed out  
> something I didn't realize: when the code-talker units were formed, the 
> Navajo soldiers spent the first few months developing a code among themselves
> for various military topics (probably because there were no appropriate
> terms in standard Navajo e.g. for a battleship). I believe that many of
> the terms were ordinary ones used in a specialized way, which would
> represent an additional level of obscurity on top of the Navajo language
> per se.
> 
> Bruce Grant
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 18 18:59:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:55:44 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970318143911.18753F-100000@haywire>
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On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:

> That's another huge reason nobody else
> could decrypt Navajo: (1) "civilized" people expect that everyone uses
> nouns like European languages do -- and since these were United States'
> messages, that's what they "should" be doing since we can't make sense out
> of anything without nouns; 

Still, in the Pacific theater the aim was to conceal the content of the
messages from Japanese, not speakers of European languages.

(2) these were not merely artificially
> encrypted languages but full-blown language/thinking/culture systems that
> came with no Rosetta Stone.

Not *absolutely* true.  The first step would be to record all messages and
try to match them with events.  If code-speaking were ever used for field
communications, one might have a chance of correlating events with
recurrent features of transmissions.  Isn't this called "traffic
analysis"?

R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 19 06:56:01 1997
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:52:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970318155017.8452E-100000@saul4.u.washington.edu>
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On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, R. Brzustowicz wrote:
 
> Still, in the Pacific theater the aim was to conceal the content of the
> messages from Japanese, not speakers of European languages.

	Quite so!  I don't know about Japanese, but I do know that Chinese
verbs do not have tense.  The Japanese could have understood other
alternatives.

> Not *absolutely* true.  The first step would be to record all messages and
> try to match them with events.  If code-speaking were ever used for field
> communications, one might have a chance of correlating events with
> recurrent features of transmissions.  Isn't this called "traffic
> analysis"?

	True again.  And we try to do the same general thing with the VMs,
by correlating star and zodiac names, trying to find plant names, etc.

	The Japanese certainly could have used secret agents in the US to
learn about Navaho.  I don't know whether they tried this.  That could
have been their "Rosetta Stone".  I recently read a book "Japan's Secret
War" about the Japanese attempt to develop an atomic bomb.  They had a spy
ring in the US run by a Spaniard named Alcazar de Velasco.  We knew about
him through our cipher intercepts, MAGIC, but merely kept an eye on him. 
He found out that we did have a very large atomic bomb program; it's not
clear what he found out beyond that. 

	We're at last finding at least traces of historical precedents for
the VMs writing system.  I think I'll include Jim Reeds' post on this.

Dennis

-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:22:45 -0500
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich-like cipher symbols

This Christmas I had a chance to see a very elegant reproduction of a
manuscript in Vienna containing several hundred different cipher keys
from the late 1400's.  This MS was written in exactly the time period
and general location Toresella placed the composition of the VMS (based
on the general appearance of VMS handwriting).  Many of the cipher keys
use made-up symbols, many of which look vaguely Voynichese.

The executive summary:  such symbols were in the "air" in at that time,
and no theory of Aztec influence need be invoked to account for their
presence in a late 15th century Northern Italian production.

The MS is "Codex Vindobonensis 2398", which is a 500 Schilling way of
saying "Vienna MS 2398".  The book I saw was vol. 22 in series "Codices
Selecti / Phototypice Impressi"  published in 1970 by "Akademische druck
-u.  Verlagsanstalt" of Graz, Austria.  Its title is "Francesco
Tranchedino / Diplomatische Geheimschriften / Codex Vindobonensis 2398 /
Der Oesterreichischen Nationalbibliothek / Faksimilieausgabe / Einfuehrung
Walter Hoeflechner " 

The introduction is very long & interesting, but I had only a short time
to look at it.  The MS itself has 169 folios (all very clearly
reproduced), with about 300 cipher keys, one per page.  "Der Hauptteil des
cvp 2389, das eigentliche Chiffrenprotokoll, enthaelt 297 vollstaendige
Schluessel aus der Cancelleria segreta..." The compiler (Tranchedino) was
a cryppie in the Sforza chancery in Milan in the late 1400's.  Each cipher
key lists 1, 2, or 3 cipher equivalents for each of the alphabet letters,
a list of maybe 4 or 6 nulls (symbols without meaning, thrown into the
cryptogram to amuse the opponents), cipher equivalents for doubled
letters, and in some cases, cipher equivalents for as many as 50 or so
words and proper names. 

The designer of the cipher symbols seems to have had fun.  Each one has
a kind of thematic unity: all the symbols are Arabic numbers, or all
the symbols are letters and pairs of letters, or are all Voynich- or
Capelli-like pothooks, or are all alchemical and astrological, or are
all Greek letters, in every case occurring in all kinds of ligatured and
pot-hook encrusted variants.

--


From reeds Wed Mar 19 08:29:30 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9703190829.ZM1581@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:29:29 -0500
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers, but it has wandered...Voynich
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

I don't know what it has to do with Navajo (or is it ho?), but Dennis mentioned my post about
Tranchedino's collection of Milanese cipher alphabets from the late 1400s.
Since then Rene Z has looked at a copy of the same facsimile I saw. He was
disappointed that there were no 'gallows' letters, and concluded (I think) that
Tranchedino was not the author of the VMS. All I had claimed was that many of
the cipher symbols looked "vaguely Voynichese." My point was that fanciful
cipher alphabets were in common use in the 15th century. Kahn's book shows some
others from the 16th century on pp. 115, 120, 123, and 139 (in the 1st edition
of his book).

I think: (1) the VMS was written in Europe by a literate European, and (2) if
it has a plain text, it is in a widely used European language such as Latin or
Italian. Why by a "literate European"? Because the author clearly knows the
ordinary Latin alphabet, a distorted and elaborated version of which forms the
VMS character set. If he usually only wrote in Arabic or Hebrew, say, his
letters would not look  the way they do. I suppose (3) the author must had had
some contact with cryptography, which in 1470 (to make up a date) meant he had
some contact with some potentate's secretary. On the negative side: (4) the
book was not written by a non-European, (5) was not written in a non-European
language, and (6), on the grounds of anachronism, was not written in a
deliberately invented artificial language (but I don't mean to rule out a kind
of spontaneously generated glossolalic sort of writing, or "outsider" art
writing, etc).

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 19 10:38:04 1997
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>Not *absolutely* true.  The first step would be to record all messages and
>try to match them with events.  If code-speaking were ever used for field
>communications, one might have a chance of correlating events with
>recurrent features of transmissions.  Isn't this called "traffic
>analysis"?
>
>R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

Yes, it is.  Indeed, isn't that how the US discovered the IJN
was going to attack Midway - by inserting a fake report from
the Midway base in their message traffic and hearing it
rebroadcast by the Japanese using *their* code word for
"Midway"?

I seem to recall this incident described in Costello's
"The Pacific War".

Yours
Robert


From ixohoxi@micro-net.com  Wed Mar 19 11:41:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:37:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich Precedents
In-Reply-To: <9703190829.ZM1581@research.att.com>
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On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Jim Reeds wrote:

> I don't know what it has to do with Navajo (or is it ho?)

	I just brought this up because I pointed out that the Japanese
could have learned about Navaho from spies in the US.  I guess you could
say that Navaho wasn't "unprecedented" for them - it wasn't as though
Navaho came from outer space. 

> Tranchedino's collection of Milanese cipher alphabets from the late 1400s.
> Since then Rene Z has looked at a copy of the same facsimile I saw. He was
> disappointed that there were no 'gallows' letters, and concluded (I think) that
> Tranchedino was not the author of the VMS. All I had claimed was that many of
> the cipher symbols looked "vaguely Voynichese." My point was that fanciful
> cipher alphabets were in common use in the 15th century. Kahn's book shows some
> others from the 16th century on pp. 115, 120, 123, and 139 (in the 1st edition
> of his book).

	I didn't recall the stuff in Kahn's book.  

	We often act as though the VMs is completely unprecedented, that
it might as well have come from outer space.  I just wanted to point out
that we are coming up with a few more specific precedents.  The fact that
Voynich characters are derived from Latin ones, as Jim points out below,
is one.  Tranchedino's book is another.  Toresella's paper is (maybe) yet
another.  The generally European appearance of nymphs, clothing, zodiacs,
etc. in the VMs is also one.  
 
> I think: (1) the VMS was written in Europe by a literate European, and (2) if
> it has a plain text, it is in a widely used European language such as Latin or
> Italian. 

	Why in a widely used European language?  Couldn't it have been a
minor one that was writen in Latin characters?  If we assume, per
Toresella, that the general location was close to northern Italy, that
might include Slovenian; Croatian; various Romance dialects like Friulian,
Dalmatian, Romanch; maybe Albanian (was it written in Latin char's before
the 20th century?); maybe Hungarian (in the Banat, around Timisoara).  

>  Why by a "literate European"? Because the author clearly knows the
> ordinary Latin alphabet, a distorted and elaborated version of which forms the
> VMS character set. If he usually only wrote in Arabic or Hebrew, say, his
> letters would not look  the way they do. I suppose (3) the author must had had
> some contact with cryptography, which in 1470 (to make up a date) meant he had
> some contact with some potentate's secretary. On the negative side: 

> (4) the book was not written by a non-European, 

	Couldn't it have been written by a non-European educated in a
European system?  Also, I recall reading that there were areas in Turkey
where Turks wrote Turkish in Greek characters, and areas in Greece where
Greeks wrote Greek in Arabic characters.  That sort of thing could have
occured in areas of close cultural contact between two groups.  Say Bosnia
- Turkish in Latin-like characters?  ;-)

> (5) was not written in a non-European language, and 

	Couldn't it have been a non-European language written in a
European system?  

	There has been much (often not serious) discussion of Nahuatl as a
possible underlying language.  I've seen the Florentine Codex of Sahagun
mentioned a number of times; it's not clear to me that it was actually in
Nahuatl.  Also the Badianus MS (Codex Barberini, 1552, Latin 241, Vatican
Library) as reproduced in _The Badianus Manuscript_, EW Emmart, 1940,
Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore.  Ron Carter said "the BM is interesting
because it was first written in by an Aztec in Aztec, then translated to
Latin by an Aztec. It then found its way to Europe, eventually ending at
the Vatican." 

	Also, I seem to recall that Maya hieroglyphs were deciphered
partly by use of Spanish transcriptions of Maya dating from the Spanish
conquest. 

> (6), on the grounds of anachronism, was not written in a
> deliberately invented artificial language (but I don't mean to rule out a kind
> of spontaneously generated glossolalic sort of writing, or "outsider" art
> writing, etc).

	We've already talked about anachronism.  There's always a first
time!  The Romans knew how to build water wheels, but apparently never did
it at all extensively.  Why they never developed the extensive use of
machine power, when they knew the science and had other great engineering
achievements, is one of history's great mysteries.  

	Food for thought, I hope...

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 19 12:47:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:37:38 -0800
From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199703191737.JAA21022@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers, but it has wandered...Voynich
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Status: ORr

Jim Reeds says:
> language, and (6), on the grounds of anachronism, was not written in a
> deliberately invented artificial language (but I don't mean to rule out a kind
> of spontaneously generated glossolalic sort of writing, or "outsider" art
> writing, etc).

Could you expand on the "anachronism" argument a bit?  Since this was
Friedman's favorite idea, it'd be interesting for me to see how his
assumptions or facts differ from yours.

	Jim Gillogly

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 19 15:23:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 19:53:28 +0000 (GMT)
From: Martin McCarthy <marty@ehabitat.demon.co.uk>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Dr Strong's letters on the VMS
In-Reply-To: <9703190829.ZM1581@research.att.com>
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Hi Folks.

Rayman has kindly sent me his transcription of Dr Strong's letters
relating to the VMS, so that they can be made available on my web pages. 
There are (if I counted correctly) 109 of these letters, and links to
them are available from:
	http://www.ehabitat.demon.co.uk/Strong/letters.html

It may take a day or two before these pages are available outside the 
demon.co.uk domain.

There are links to a voluminous page containing all the letters and to
lots of pages containing the individual letters.  The index page gives no
clue as to what's in any of the letters that it links to (sorry, maybe
when I have more time...) but the letters are in chronological order. 

Hope that's of some use to someone,
Martin
-- 
Martin McCarthy                 /</        http://www.ehabitat.demon.co.uk
PGP key available.              \>\             marty@ehabitat.demon.co.uk

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 19 15:50:03 1997
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Message-Id: <199703192045.PAA24741@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970319193323.32036A-100000@ehabitat.demon.co.uk>
	(message from Martin McCarthy on Wed, 19 Mar 1997 19:53:28 +0000
	(GMT))
Subject: Re: Dr Strong's letters on the VMS
Status: OR


Martin,

You might want to consider a different color combination (black text on
a white background, for instance), as all I can see are the red letter links.
None of the other text shows up against the black background.

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 20 03:50:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:47:30 +0200
Subject: Re: Why is the VM encrypted?
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Dear all,

Bruce Grant proposes:

> This leads into the other thing that has always bothered
> me about the VM: the VM script is attractive, easy to write
> and to recognize, as if it were the result of long usage -
> so why hasn't anyone ever found another scrap
> of text written in it anywhere in the world?

Just a thought:
maybe our manuscript is really only a piled-up collection
of various single manuscripts, not necessarily too related,
and written over a longer time span?

> If the VM was encrypted for a group of "initiates" it is
> hard to believe that the group was more than a handful of
> people.

And such groups are known to have existed.
Agrippa was the leader of a 'secret' group of people
interested in magic etc, but for the VMs we would
be looking at people even more on the 'fringe of science'
(and possibly from a few decades before that).

Conversely, Toresella's theory about the VMs would
also explain its uniqueness and its size.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 20 04:56:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:52:51 +0200
Subject: Re: Code-talkers, but it has wandered...Voynich
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Dear all,

Jim  Reeds wrote:
> .... Dennis mentioned my post about Tranchedino's collection
> of Milanese cipher alphabets from the late 1400s. Since
> then Rene Z has looked at a copy of the same facsimile I saw.
> He was disappointed that there were no 'gallows' letters,
> and concluded (I think) that Tranchedino was not the author
> of the VMS.
Yes, though not on the basis of the absence of gallows-
lookalikes. And in fact it seems unlikely any professional
cryptographer would have written the VMs
> All I had claimed was that many of the cipher symbols
> looked "vaguely Voynichese."
I realised that and fully agree. Even down to such special
things as Currier 'S', the i-shaped variant of Currier-S,
'SO' ligatures, picnic tables, and things like the
'chinese hat in corner', looking more like the mirror
image of Arabic 'k'.

> My point was that fanciful cipher alphabets were in common
> use in the 15th century.
... and references in the introduction to ciphers in the
early 15th C, Tranchedino being late 15C.

Then:

> (6), on the grounds of anachronism, was not written in a
> deliberately invented artificial language (but I don't mean
> to rule out a kind of spontaneously generated glossolalic
> sort of writing, or "outsider" art writing, etc).

I like to think of the script/language combination certainly
as a deliberate invention. And when I say language I rather
more mean it in Currier's sense of the word. Assuming there
is an underlying text, it has been deliberately transformed
into what we see. Of course, if we want to retrieve the
transformation rules, it makes a difference if we concentrate
on 15C cipher, or invented languages, but there is a lot of
commonality too. Furthermore, 'invented languages' may take
many different shapes, some of which will seem more like
cipher. With D'Imperio, I like the idea of seeing a 'universal
representation system' rather than a universal language. It
would be capable of representing text from different scripts,
such as roman, greek, arabic and what have you. The result
might not be a language, it might not be pronouncible,
the process would not be encryption with the purpose of
hiding the meaning, but the inverse process is essentially
one of decryption.

Disclaimer: I do agree that this is all highly speculative.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 20 12:32:03 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Kahn's 1966 edition ( UK version ) Chapter 3
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 17:28:13 GMT
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        From    Denis V Mardle

  Chapter 3 of Kahn's  'The Code-breakers' is titled 'The rise of the West' should be
read or re-read  ( checking the notes at the back )  by all serious members of the
VMs group.  The problem of abbreviated code meanings was clearly present in the
first half of the 14th century.   The comments about Philibert Babou are also of
interest ( on my page 111 )

   The Bibliography starts off with British Museum, Additional Manuscript.  Followed by the
number of the Ms in the ADD. Ms. series   The 17th and 18th centuries are well
documented in chapter 5 - 'The Era of the Black Chambers'     Two key references
are Kenneth Ellis - 'The Post Office in the 18th Century: A study in Administrative  
History'    i.e  The  Secret (cipher) Office (mostly)   .    Elizabethan ciphers GB in the
PRO, State P{apers 106/1-3  and in the 17th Century Dr Wallis's solutions from
June 14 1689 to August 29 1703 in the Bodleian Library.    I suspect that there are
earlier Cipher Archives than we know about in many Western States..

  It would be interesting to trace the very earliest in the BM Add. Ms. series.

     Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 22 15:56:01 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Toresella
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:54:32 -0500 (EST)
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Rene Z recently wrote: 
> Conversely, Toresella's theory about the VMs would
> also explain its uniqueness and its size.

I must have been dozing, Rene ...  What is Toresella's theory?

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 22 16:23:02 1997
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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 16:22:49 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: celestial patterns?
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Looking into the zodiac pages once again, I need to ask if anyone knows
of a zodiac/celestial/seasonal instance of 69 days? Just hoping that the
69 consecutive vertical barrels amount to something...

	Of course, the fact that it is followed by at least 220 (days?) of no
barrels is discouraging. But, the possibility does exist for 69 days of
horizontal barrels (that is, if one wishes to make a giant leap of
imagination in what could be on the calendar prior to Pisces).

			John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar 23 08:50:06 1997
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Subject: Re: celestial patterns?
To: handley@fox.nstn.ca (John & Sue Grove)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:47:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <33344DA9.5C0D@fox.nstn.ca> from "John & Sue Grove" at Mar 22, 97 04:22:49 pm
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> 	Of course, the fact that it is followed by at least 220 (days?) of no
> barrels is discouraging. But, the possibility does exist for 69 days of

Whoa! Isn't that close to the numbers of the Venus cycle? Alternating
visibility and invisibility? I'll have to go look that one up, I do know
the Aztecs had that all worked out.

Film at 11,
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar 23 18:17:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 18:12:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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I.  The Concept - Compare the Entropies of Known Repetitive and Non-
     repetitive texts. 
II.  The Texts
    A.  Jacobean English
    B.  Voynich Herbal
    C.  Late Classical Latin
    D.  Modern English
III.  Results
IV.  Discussion of Results
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I.  *The Concept*  One of the most striking characteristics of the VMs 
is the text's repetitiousness.  From time to time, some have suggested 
that it is simply a very repetitious text.  Rene recently gave us a 
magical spell in medieval High German that was repetitious.  
    
    I decided to take samples of known repetitious texts (food 
recipes, religious texts, catalogs) and compare their second-order 
entropies with those of known texts that should be less repetitious 
(prose fiction, essays).  I used MONKEY to calculate second-order 
entropies.  (Note: I used the bug-free, "sensible" MONKEY on Gabriel 
Landini's Web page; I believe that the MONKEY on Garbo still has 
bugs.)  Note that MONKEY in its present form only takes the first 
32,000 characters in a file.  
    
    I looked at the following measures:
    
    h0: zero-order entropy (log2 of the number of different 
            characters) 
    h1: first-order entropy 
    h2: second-order entropy 
    h1 - h2: difference between first- and second order entropies
    % rel h2:  (h1 - h2) as a percentage of h1, that is
    
               % rel h2 = (h1 - h2) / h1 * 100
 
    
II.  *The Texts*  Some long texts, like 1st Kings in KJV and Vulgate 
Latin, were divided up into portions so that MONKEY could analyze them 
separately.  In many cases, an actual text was larger than MONKEY 
could handle; in those cases MONKEY just took the first 32,000 
characters.  

    A.  *Jacobean English*  Ever since its publication, many 
commentators have noted how repetitious the Book of Mormon is.  The 
Bible itself is, of course, somewhat repetitious.  For a (relatively) 
non-repetitious text in Jacobean English, I chose the Essays of Sir 
Francis Bacon.

Book of Mormon

1_NEPHI  
ALMA     
ETHER    

Bible, KJV

GENESIS 
JOSHUA      
ACTS        

1st Book of Kings 
http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=1+Kings 

    (Divisions as in the Vulgate 1 Book of Kings, below)

1kings1.kjv 
1kings2.kjv  
1kings3.kjv 

Sir Francis Bacon, Essays

FBACON1    
FBACON2 
FBACON3 

B.  *Voynich Manuscript*  Rene Zandbergen kindly provided me with 
samples of Herbal-B and Herbal-A as follows:

Herbal-B:
26r, 26v, 31r, 31v, 33r, 33v, 34r, 34v, 39r, 39v, 40r, 40v, 41r, 41v, 43r,
43v, 46r, 46v, 48r, 48v, 50r, 50v, 55r, 55v, 57r

Selected Herbal-A:
28v, 29r, 29v, 30r, 30v, 32r, 32v, 35r, 35v, 36r, 36v, 37r, 37v, 38r, 38v,
42r, 42v, 44r, 44v, 45r, 45v, 47r, 47v, 49r, 49v 

Herbal A - voyas
Herbal B - voyb

    Currier -   *.raw
    FSG         *.fsg
    Frogguy     *.gu
    EVA         *.eva

C.  *Latin (Late Classical)*

Vulgate Latin Bible
Book of 1 Kings

kings1.lat   Begin -- 8:18
kings2.lat   8:19 -- 15:26
kings3.lat   15:27 -- End

Boethius: Consolatio Philosophiae: Books 3 & 4 

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/latin/boethius/boecons3.html
PLUS
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/latin/boethius/boecons4.html

boecons.lat 

D.  *Modern English*

Catholic Litany, http://www.catholic.org/prayer/litsts.html
litany1.txt 

ISO Standard Catalog
http://www.scc.ca/iso14000/thestnds.html
iso14cat.txt

The Blue Hotel, by Stephen Crane
crane.txt 

Chicken Recipe, http://wywahoos.org/cookbook/chicken.htm
chicken.txt  

Cajun Recipes, 
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes/ethnic/cajun/cajun-coll.html
PLUS
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes/ethnic/cajun/cajun-coll-2.html
cajun.txt  


--------------------------------------------------------------------
III.  *Results*

Monkey Runs for Selected Texts
March 23, 1997;   07:14 

               #      Chars 
File           of      in                                         % rel
Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2    h2
-----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------

Jacobean English:
1_NEPHI         27    32000    4.755    4.033    3.090    0.942    23.4
ALMA            27    32000    4.755    4.041    3.109    0.931    23.0
ETHER           27    32000    4.755    4.009    3.029    0.980    24.4
GENESIS         27    32000    4.755    3.969    3.020    0.949    23.9
JOSHUA          27    32000    4.755    4.012    3.029    0.983    24.5
ACTS            27    32000    4.755    4.041    3.137    0.904    22.4
1kings1.kjv     27    32000    4.755    4.022    3.068    0.953    23.7
1kings2.kjv     27    32000    4.755    4.028    3.090    0.939    23.3
1kings3.kjv     27    32000    4.755    3.998    3.092    0.906    22.7
FBACON1         27    32000    4.755    4.048    3.220    0.827    20.4
FBACON2         27    32000    4.755    4.042    3.214    0.828    20.5
FBACON3         27    32000    4.755    4.066    3.229    0.837    20.6

               #      Chars 
File           of      in                                         % rel
Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2    h2
-----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------

Voynich Herbal A:
voyas.raw       25     8108    4.644    3.402    2.222    1.180    34.7
voyas.fsg       19     9306    4.248    3.544    2.188    1.355    38.2
voyas.eva       21    12218    4.392    3.802    1.990    1.812    47.7
voyas.guy       15    11596    3.907    3.345    1.877    1.468    43.9


Voynich Herbal B:
voyb.raw        26    10764    4.700    3.416    2.225    1.191    34.9
voyb.fsg        19    13434    4.248    3.470    2.187    1.283    37.0
voyb.eva        21    16061    4.392    3.859    2.081    1.778    46.1
voyb.guy        15    14524    3.907    3.351    1.939    1.412    42.1

               #      Chars 
File           of      in                                         % rel
Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2    h2
-----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------

Latin (Late Classical):
kings1.lat      24    32000    4.585    4.002    3.309    0.692    17.3
kings2.lat      24    32000    4.585    3.994    3.287    0.707    17.7
kings3.lat      24    32000    4.585    4.005    3.304    0.700    17.5
boecons.lat     25    32000    4.644    3.971    3.272    0.699    17.6


Modern English:
cajun.txt       27    27363    4.755    4.124    3.297    0.827    20.1
litany1.txt     26     9492    4.700    4.071    3.103    0.968    23.8
chicken.txt     27    18461    4.755    4.131    3.193    0.938    22.7
iso14cat.txt    27     6696    4.755    4.076    3.137    0.939    23.0
crane.txt       27    32000    4.755    4.073    3.247    0.826    20.3

-------------------------------------------------------------------

IV.  *Discussion of Results*   

    Some runs were on several portions of a large text, because of 
MONKEY's size limitation - 1 Kings, both KJV and Vulgate, and F. 
Bacon's Essays.  The ranges of rel % h2 were:

    23.7 - 22.7 = 1.0, King James 1 Kings
    17.7 - 17.3 = 0.4, Latin Vulgae 1 Kings
    20.6 - 20.4 = 0.2, Francis Bacon Essays.

These figures give some idea of how reproducible MONKEY results are on 
a text sample of 32,000 characters.  

    In the Jacobean English texts, the difference in percent points of 
rel % h2 between the highest and lowest values was 24.5 - 20.5 = 4.0.  
The same difference for modern English texts was 23.8 - 20.1 = 3.7.  
(The presumably repetitious cajun.txt was slightly less so (20.1) than 
the short story crane.txt (20.3).  The numbers for Jacobean and modern 
English do not seem significantly different.  
    
    The rel % h2's of the Latin Vulgate Bible texts were not 
significantly different from that of the presumably less repetitious 
Boethius text boecons.lat.  The difference between non-repetitious 
English texts and Latin texts is about 20.4 -  17.5 = 2.9.  
    
    The really significant differences are between Voynich and natural 
language texts.  Even taking the most repetitious English text (KJV 
Joshua, 24.5) and the least repetitious Voynich text (Herbal-A in 
Currier, 34.7) gives a difference of 10.2, much greater than the range 
of repetitiousness between various English texts (3.7 or 4.0).  
    
    Equally significant is the difference between the various Voynich 
transcription alphabets.   The range from Frogguy to Currier is:
     
    Voynich A:  43.9 - 34.7 = 9.2  
    Voynich B:  42.1 - 34.9 = 7.2
    
    Once again, this is greater than the range of repetitiousness seen 
in English texts.  EVA is more repetitious than Frogguy, which I would 
not have expected.  
    
    Both Frogguy and EVA use combinations of characters to represent 
single Currier letters.  The difference between Latin and English may 
be due to the same sort of thing:  Latin represents much fewer 
phonemes by multiple characters than English does.   

Dennis
     



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 04:02:10 1997
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Dear all,

Dennis provided some interesting statistics,
showing essentially, that Voynichese is not
'just like any old repetitive text' but there's
more in it that makes it strange.

Further, some entropy values for Frogguy and EVA were
shown:
>               #      Chars
>File           of      in                                         % rel
>Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2    h2
>-----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------

>Voynich Herbal A:
>voyas.raw       25     8108    4.644    3.402    2.222    1.180    34.7
>voyas.fsg       19     9306    4.248    3.544    2.188    1.355    38.2
>voyas.eva       21    12218    4.392    3.802    1.990    1.812    47.7
>voyas.guy       15    11596    3.907    3.345    1.877    1.468    43.9
>
>
>Voynich Herbal B:
>voyb.raw        26    10764    4.700    3.416    2.225    1.191    34.9
>voyb.fsg        19    13434    4.248    3.470    2.187    1.283    37.0
>voyb.eva        21    16061    4.392    3.859    2.081    1.778    46.1
>voyb.guy        15    14524    3.907    3.351    1.939    1.412    42.1
which prompted his:
>  EVA is more repetitious than Frogguy, which I would
>  not have expected.

Since the character set for Frogguy is given as 15, the h1 value
has to be lower for Frogguy than for EVA. EVA's h1 is closest to
that of normal languages, but still quite slow. The h2's are similar
because of the similar way the two schemes 'split up' characters.
The above numbers may need to be checked, because the number of
different characters in each of the texts seems rather low.
When I did a similar comparison, I did find similar values for h1,
(i.e. similar to each other) but different values for (h1+h2).
I will admit that I did not double-check everything then.

Jacques then proposed:
> I took the first hundred lines or so of Genesis, and did a few global
> replacements:

> i -> ie
> t -> dt
> r -> rrh
> f -> ph
> o -> au
> w -> uu

<snip>

> Equating upper and lower case, disregarding spaces, punctuation, etc., >
I ended up with a text 5684 characters long, with h1=3.80219,
> h2=2.47096. Compare this with Dennis's figures:

> gen.00          21     5684    4.392    3.802    2.471    1.333 35.0

> Pretty close to the FSG transcription figures, isn't it?

Close to the EVA figures for h0 and h1, and close to FSG
for (h1-h2) and (h1-h2)/h1. But if h1 is already quite different
it is not clear what that means.
It would seem to confirm what I have also found (and presumably
many others before me: the h2 is very tough to get down to
Voynich level (or up to normal levels depending on your approach).

As Jacques also said, a more targeted choice of 'character
expansions' could give even more Voynich-like statistics. At first
sight it would seem that more than the six chosen arbitrarily
would be required.

I am still not sure that Mark's table method of subsitution
could not be the right solution. It incorporates a similar
character expansion, taken to new heights as it were.
As it stands, it allows for too much freedom, but that
may well be cured one way or another.

For what it's worth,
              Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 04:14:09 1997
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Hello Bruce and all,

>> Conversely, Toresella's theory about the VMs would
>> also explain its uniqueness and its size.

> I must have been dozing, Rene ...  What is Toresella's theory?

To cut a long (and interesting) story short, his theory is that the
Voynich Manuscript was produced by (or for) a travelling alchemist,
or quack who needed a reputation of being very wise and powerful in
order to attract 'clients' and thus have a good income. Such
people would carry with them books of great learning, where
plant illustrations play a big role. Toresella in his article discusses
many such herbals, which have plants with apparently fantastic
powers. None of these may be immediately be compared with the
VMs, but he proposes that such a mysterious book as the VMs
would give its owner an immediate reputation.
To cut the story even shorter: it was written to deceive, not one
rich emperor but a multitude of common people. Its contents are
meaningless.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 02:47:05 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:26:42 -0800
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rmalek wrote:
 
> As a matter of record, I would like to inform the group that the copies of
> Strong's works are now in the hands of their intended recipients, despite
> my attempts at making them look like letter bombs (or at least the postal
> service took this view).

So did the electronic documents! My mailbox is set to 400K maximum
message
length, and it squeaked loudly with more than half a megabyte of zipped
GIFs. Each GIF, fortunately, is only about 60K. I did the first one, and
it promptly shrank to 1101 bytes of ASCII transcription. Here it is
(Careful! Use a fixed-width font to view this):



First GIF

The Transcription. 

The Voynich text is in Basic Frogguy.

Strong sometimes mixes Roman and Voynich letters. As he capitalizes
Roman almost always, and Basic Frogguy does not use capitals, and
uses only a dozen letters of the alphabet, there is seldom any
ambiguity. When there is (e.g. last line), I have put the Voynich text
in angle brackets (<>).

To preserve the alignment of Voynich cipher, English plain text,
and numerical keycodes, I have used equal signs (=) as fillers.
Thus for instance:


             ou=A=RI
             oqpct89
              1=3=57

That means that Strong has taken <qp> and <ct> as single letters, and
that "u" is written above <qp> and "1" beneath it, and "A" above <ct>
and "3" beneath.

Note that Strong considers <cc> and <ct> with intruding gallows as
single letters, and uses an apostrophe (') to indicate elided letters
(e.g. M'NIE below, probably MANIE).



                                                 3/2/4



                                                ou=A=RI
                                                oqpct89     (1)
                                                 1=3=57

                                                ou=A=RQV T
                                                oqpct8989o
                                                 1=3=57975

1=1==1111 1===111 111=11=11 122=222 11 212=11 21=1 211=2=23
qpc'tc8os c't=c89 4oqjccc89 4olpc89 89 4olpox olp9 4olpcc89
T=H==VRVH M=='NIE AST=RA=LL FLV=XES TE COV=RS OE=F COI=T=US
  1==3579 7== 531 474=13=57 975=314 74 135=79 75=3 147=4=13

122=113 2==31  2=2=113  3  2  134=    12   23===12  2=
SOM=BRE W==ITH D=O=UTE  oqpas oxlpc89 8oig 4clptc89 ctclp9
4olpc89 c'tc89 qpctc89  eu=dS WHI=LVM TWA= GE===RMS P=AS=S
579=753 1==474 1=3=579  75=31 474=135 797= 53===147 4=13=5

THE VULVI , ATT=VNE IME=RG== seu=R<x>i MA=NNIG ILU=DE Nuhm==v<iiv>.
8ax ccc89   4olpc89 4olpciiv oxlpc=8=9 9qpcc89 4oqpax 8oxc'tc=8===9
797 53147   413=579 753=14== 741=3=5=7 97=5314 741=35 7875==3=1===4

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 00:14:03 1997
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That transcription of the first GIF of Strong's notes,
that was the beginning of folio 78r (Newbold plate V,
Kraus XXIX, Kraus autobiography p.220, it's in Currier's
language B, hand 2, biological section)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 02:26:09 1997
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Dennis wrote:
[snip]
 
 
>     Both Frogguy and EVA use combinations of characters to represent
> single Currier letters.  The difference between Latin and English may
> be due to the same sort of thing:  Latin represents much fewer
> phonemes by multiple characters than English does.


I took the first hundred lines or so of Genesis, and did a few global
replacements:

i -> ie
t -> dt
r -> rrh
f -> ph
o -> au
w -> uu


So that it became this:

1:1 ien dthe begiennieng Goud crrheadted dthe heaven and dthe earrhdth.
1:2 And dthe earrhdth uuas uuiedthouudt phourrhm, and vouied; and
darrhkness [uuas]
 upoun dthe phace ouph dthe deep. And dthe Spierrhiedt ouph Goud mouved
upoun dthe
 phace ouph dthe uuadterrhs.
1:3 And Goud saied, Ledt dtherrhe be lieghdt: and dtherrhe uuas lieghdt.
1:4 And Goud sauu dthe lieghdt, dthadt [iedt uuas] gououd: and Goud
dievieded
 dthe lieghdt phrrhoum dthe darrhkness.
1:5 And Goud called dthe lieghdt Day, and dthe darrhkness he called
 Nieghdt. And dthe evenieng and dthe mourrhnieng uuerrhe dthe phierrhsdt
day.
1:6 And Goud saied, Ledt dtherrhe be a phierrhmamendt ien dthe miedsdt
ouph dthe
 uuadterrhs, and ledt iedt dieviede dthe uuadterrhs phrrhoum dthe
uuadterrhs.

and sou oun, and sou oun... beg pardon: and so on, and so on.

Equating upper and lower case, disregarding spaces, punctuation, etc., I
ended up with a text 5684 characters long, with h1=3.80219, h2=2.47096. 
Compare this with Dennis's figures:

>                #      Chars
> File           of      in                                         % rel
> Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2    h2
> -----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------
>
> voyas.raw       25     8108    4.644    3.402    2.222    1.180    34.7
> voyas.fsg       19     9306    4.248    3.544    2.188    1.355    38.2
> voyas.eva       21    12218    4.392    3.802    1.990    1.812    47.7
> voyas.guy       15    11596    3.907    3.345    1.877    1.468    43.9

  gen.00          21     5684    4.392    3.802    2.471    1.333   
35.0

Pretty close to the FSG transcription figures, isn't it?


Note, please DO note, that the substitutions I made to Genesis were
right
off the top of my head. I did not even stop to think about which ones
would
do what, and I stopped when I thought "that should be enough".

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 19:20:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:16:14 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Toresella
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> To cut the story even shorter: it was written to deceive, not one
> rich emperor but a multitude of common people. Its contents are
> meaningless.

I for one have a very difficult time believing that something so
extraordinary was created without meaning.  I have travelled much, and
toured hundreds of European museums, and even though some of the art was
meaningless to me, it had its time and place in history.  
I admit I see nothing in a Picasso, and I believe I never will, but others
assure me that something is there.  I take their word for it and
concentrate on artists who have more to say in my language, that language
of art that I commune with.

The Voynich is no Picasso.  She speaks to me and I must listen.  I wait
breathlessly for her next word, and when I hear that word I quiver with
excitement and anticipation.  Every letter has substance, every syllable a
work of love, and every word its own special meaning.    There is nothing
she can say to me that is meaningless.

There is no deception in the Voynich.  This book speaks of intelligence,
learning, cunning, and the most sublime art art of subtlety.  To even
suggest that the Voynich ranks with Picasso is beyond my comprehension.

Regards,  Rayman  

        

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 22:20:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:14:32 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: VMS. Strong. 003.GIF
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I have used an asterisk (*) to represent an illegible letter.
> 
> The first letter of the second last word, line 2, is unrecognizable
> (*ISMON).  It is a cross between an "8" and a capital "P".

This word should be read "PISMON" - its meaning is akin to 'pissemyre'. 
"Reall girl, aut the pismon of wit, seek to edit not idle folkloure fites
me" (or something like that - if you wish I will refer to the texts from
now on and not my sloppy memory.)

My translation is this - "Reall girl" (A woman of fertile age, a rightful
woman) "aut the pismon of wit" (with the brains of a pissmire/common sense
of a piss ant) "seek to edit not idle folkloure" (who accepts the idle
wive's tales of others without question) "fites me".  (makes me angry).  It
isn't too difficult to imagine someone saying that, even if it is in
cipher, now does it?

> Where I have put pipes (|) before the last word of the second last line
> there is a note, written sideways vertically, which reads:
> 
>    Change
>    to Home
> I am not sure about "Home", though (when are bloody medics going to
> write legibly??? *sigh*). It makes no sense since there is no
> interruption in the key which continues undisturbed: 47413...

I read this note as "Change to four".  This refers to a change in the
vertical step sequence, and not the fixed horizontal sequence of
1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-4-7-4.

> Strong seems to confuse <lp> and <qp> occasionally (I have checked with
> Petersen's), but this is of little import. I still cannot figure out his
> method. Nor can I make any sense at all out of the plain text. It must
> be an intermediate stage of the decipherment. All I understand is the
> reference to Gaelic in his correspondence:  SEO (encountered  earlier)
> is Scottish Gaelic  for "this, here" (it's pronounced "shaw" as in
> "George Bernard Shaw"). Pure coincidence. Nothing else there looks or
> sounds like Gaelic.

You have been the first one who can correlate SEO with anything, as I have
asked from my own work.  It is an article of language, as I understand it,
yes?  Nothing else should sound Gaelic, simply because it is a mix-match
language.

	When I was in language school, we used to confuse the languages
and form sentences, poems, and even songs, mixed with our different
languages.  They would not be readily understandable by any mono-linguistic
speaker, especially because of the colloquials literally translated into
foriegn tongue.  Useless to most, but to us they were an artistic mix of
our knowledge and easily understood by fellow classmates.  A few of us even
formed a sort of language using
several to draw from.  We could speak and no one could understand without
our resources to draw upon.
Some of us even translated current American chart songs into other
languages for enjoyment, using
alternate languages to make them rhyme and follow the tempo of the song. 
The one thing all of this different type of play had in common was that the
fullest meaning was to be gained in our base language, which was English. 
I see no difference between our childhood toys and the grownup work of the
Voynich as Strong understands it.  Do YOU understand?

As to the difference between <lp> and <qp>, you now discover my ignorance. 
 I can only take this to mean the minor differences between two 'gallows'
characters, which in my mind are statistically identical, save the fact
that one causes a shift and another does not.  My transcription is much
different than that of the VSG, and these are not my notations.  In fact, I
have never bothered to learn your transcription methods since I have a
completely transcribed text of my own, based on my own structure and
methods.  I will have to review your transcriptions and see how it matches
with mine before I can comment.  My cursory results have been that there
are many instances where your transcriptions and mine differ, and I gave up
any reconciliation some time ago.  Perhaps now I must try again, but I must
inform you up front that I see things differently than you do.  This is
clearly an instance where I have failed to learn the language.

> I have checked Strong's use of circumflex-like and circular plumes over
> <ct> against Petersen's copy. They correspond to plain, open, plumes and
> to "tight" plumes. The  latter ("tight" plume) looks very much like the
> symbol for the unrounded back vowel ("pepet") in the Balinese script.
> ... another six months to our yearly  holiday in Bali (*sigh*)... you
> know what's good about Bali? That country does not need a good five-cent
> cigar, it's got one!  (It's got several, but I am partial to the Panter
> cerutu, 1500 rupiah for a packet of ten, which works out at just about 5
> cents US apiece, since US$1 is almost Rp 3000). Plumes are sometimes
> found in strange places, as a look at Petersen's will readily teach you.
> Over <a> sometimes, and my little eye  has spied them over... <4>! The
> sad truth is, we don't really know about the nature of the Voynich
> alphabet. Perhaps those plumes are vowels. Or consonants. Or mark the
> absence of a vowel. Like in Sanskrit and other Indian writing systems. I
> have fantasized about this before, and you all know about those
> fantasies. Anyway, it's time for me to go back to bed (4.50 am). I have
> long run out of Balinese cigars and my Havanas still need a month or two
> in the humidor.

My dear Jacques, I have no idea where to buy Balinese cigars, and Havanas
in the U.S. are beyond me, but I would gladly buy you a few just for your
effort.  This particular character we are talking about has six forms, and
all have meaning:

1.  The natural unblemished form - my form '1'

2.  A form with a "dot" over it - my form '2'.  

3.  A form with a "question mark" over it - my form '3'.

4.  A form with a "pointed hat" over it - my form '5' (4 is reserved for
the character "4").

5.  A form with an open arch over it - my form '6'.  

6.  A form with a closed teardrop over it - my form '7'.

The meanings of these forms are simple, and completely in line with the
cipher.  I will not precisely discern them at this point, until all reports
are in from those of you who do this sort of work, but just let me
speculate:  They say take this character then go left, take this character
then go right, take this character then go down, take this character then
go up, take this character and go right one place, take this character and
go left one place.

Perhaps this is speculation on my part, and perhaps it is specific
knowledge.  The one thing I will tell you specifically is that if your
remarks are referring to the two gallows characters, they are the same. 
They differ only in functionality.


Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 25 03:08:02 1997
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Dear all,

Rayman replies to my 'executive summary' of Toresella:

>> To cut the story even shorter: it was written to deceive, not one
>> rich emperor but a multitude of common people. Its contents are
>> meaningless.
>
> I for one have a very difficult time believing that something
> so extraordinary was created without meaning.

Toresella may be right or he may be wrong (and a lot in between).
I am not fixed toward either opinion, but I guess I would be
happier if he were wrong, and there is a recoverable meaning
to the MS. You are certainly also entitled to your opinion,
and to arguing against opposite opinions.
That the VMs is extraordinary is of course a fact, not
an opinion. But some very clever things have been done
in the past, just to deceive (and this has by no means
stopped). The Trojan horse may well have been a thing of
beauty.....

> To even suggest that the Voynich ranks with Picasso is
> beyond my comprehension.

But you do admit there are lots of people for whom the opposite
is likely to be true. *I* don't care too much for Picasso
either but we may well be a minority here.

I agree with you that there is probably more than just
gibberish in the VMs but solid proof is lacking (and this
I see as a fact, not an opinion). Proof for a meaningful
content may eventually be easier to find than proof
against it. Let's hope it turns up some day.


Best wishes, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 25 09:47:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:36:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
In-Reply-To: <3336E8CC.6C32@trl.telstra.com.au>
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On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> I took the first hundred lines or so of Genesis, and did a few global
> replacements:
> 
> i -> ie
> t -> dt
> r -> rrh
> f -> ph
> o -> au
> w -> uu
> 
> 
> Equating upper and lower case, disregarding spaces, punctuation, etc., I
> ended up with a text 5684 characters long, with h1=3.80219, h2=2.47096. 

	I converted portions of the Latin Vulgate 1 Kings into Cat Latin
A.  qx marks voicing, qh marks spirantization, qm marks change to the
corresponding nasal consonant.  Original x is rendered as cs, j is changed
to i, v and w are changed to u. 

	Here's the BITRANS script:


#=~
<(comment)> <(comment)>
{(comment)} {(comment)}
#(comment) #(comment)
a  a
b  pqx
c  c
d  tqx
e  e
f  pqh
g  cqx
h  h
i  i
j  i
k  c
m  pqm
n  tqm
o  o
p  p
qu qu
r  r
s  tqh
t  t
u  u
v  u
w  u
x  cs
y  i
z  tqhx


    And the results:

              #                                             %
            diff                                           rel.
Text        char   char    h0      h1      h2     h1 - h2   h2
----------  ----   -----   -----   -----   -----  ------   ----

1st Book of Kings, Latin (*.lat)  and Cat Latin A (*.cla)
1kingsa.lat   24   14828   4.585   3.989   3.273   0.715   17.9
1kingsa.cla   16   21658   4.000   3.673   2.410   1.263   34.4
1kingsb.lat   24   15537   4.585   4.012   3.281   0.731   18.2
1kingsb.cla   16   22499   4.000   3.689   2.432   1.257   34.1
1kingsc.lat   23   14374   4.524   3.977   3.253   0.724   18.2
1kingsc.cla   16   20591   4.000   3.680   2.430   1.250   34.0


Voynich Herbal in Currier:
voyas.raw     25    8108   4.644   3.402   2.222   1.180   34.7
voyb.raw      26   10764   4.700   3.416   2.225   1.191   34.9


    Thus we've gone from high-entropy Latin to nearly the low entropy of
Voynich Herbal in Currier! 

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 25 11:05:03 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re Re: VMS. Strong. 003.GIF
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     From    Denis V Mardle              Tuesday       25 March 1997

  Rayman writes      
    <<<<<
This word should be read "PISMON" - its meaning is akin to 'pissemyre'. 
"Reall girl, aut the pismon of wit, seek to edit not idle folkloure fites
me" (or something like that - if you wish I will refer to the texts from
now on and not my sloppy memory.)

My translation is this - "Reall girl" (A woman of fertile age, a rightful
woman) "aut the pismon of wit" (with the brains of a pissmire/common sense
of a piss ant) "seek to edit not idle folkloure" (who accepts the idle
wive's tales of others without question) "fites me".  (makes me angry).  It
isn't too difficult to imagine someone saying that, even if it is in
cipher, now does it?
           >>>>>>>>>>>

 Rayman    -   One of the letters from a friend of Voynich pointed out to Dr.
 Strong that his interpretation didn't seem like Nothumbrian Dialect or any
other Dialect he/she knew.    Dr. Strong replies that Dr. John Dee knew
all sorts of Dialects plus Welsh, Gaelic and various Foreign Languages.
 Dr. Strong implies that he was coming to the view that Dee wrote the
VMs and not Anthony Askham.    Are you maintaining that you know
which Dialect is represented by Dr. Strong or are you giving your own
interpretation as in the sample above ?

  <<<<<<<
I read this note as "Change to four".  This refers to a change in the
vertical step sequence, and not the fixed horizontal sequence of
1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-4-7-4.
                                 >>>>>>>>>>>

 Which vertical step sequence ?     I can see no signs of decimated
Voynich symbols in the rows or columns of the recoveries before or
after the conversion to incomplete Latin  square form on  6 April 1945
 I believe the latter was a change he made after getting useful comments
from his visit to Professor Kent, but he did'nt change his plain text.  Did
you notice the change to higher key ( row ) numbers on worksheets W7
and W8.  These are correct for 6 April but only from line 2 of W7  !!
 I have yet to check where all the lowish key ( row ) values come from
on  W6 and perhaps the top of W7

    <<<<<<<

 This particular character we are talking about has six forms, and
all have meaning:

1.  The natural unblemished form - my form '1'

2.  A form with a "dot" over it - my form '2'.  

3.  A form with a "question mark" over it - my form '3'.

4.  A form with a "pointed hat" over it - my form '5' (4 is reserved for
the character "4").

5.  A form with an open arch over it - my form '6'.  

6.  A form with a closed teardrop over it - my form '7'.

The meanings of these forms are simple, and completely in line with the
cipher.  I will not precisely discern them at this point, until all reports
are in from those of you who do this sort of work, but just let me
speculate:  They say take this character then go left, take this character
then go right, take this character then go down, take this character then
go up, take this character and go right one place, take this character and
go left one place.

Perhaps this is speculation on my part, and perhaps it is specific
knowledge.  The one thing I will tell you specifically is that if your
remarks are referring to the two gallows characters, they are the same. 
They differ only in functionality.

         >>>>>>>>>>>

   You are going to have to give your specific knowledge      It is going
back to Newbold if we have to interpret small variations in pen strokes
especially when we know there are at least two hands at work and
probably more.

  On a different note I am about to try to reconstruct Dr. Strong's worksheet
using the interln.txt file version of f93r.  I think he worked on this first - in 
Jan and Feb 1945 after getting the reprint from Hugh O'Neill which may
well have included a print or photostat of f93r

        Regards          Denis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 19:02:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:57:02 -0800
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USA=LLIE s=e===e LU=OV god ON VEN=VS SU=TLI DUC=TLE ROU=LLS The
4olpc8a2 ctclpa9 oqpo2 8o2 o2 4olpox oqpc89 4oqpc89 4olpc89 8ax
741=3579 7=5===3 14=74 135 79 753=14 74=135 797=531 474=135 797

GRA=OTH COE=MLI A F=EV= PL==UMA DEN=NID LI=FS EMI=TTI H==VMI IC=NOM
4oqpc89 4oqpc89 2 lpaig 8c'tc89 4olpc89 olpa2 4olpc89 c'tc89 9lpc89
531=474 135=797 5 3=14= 74==135 797=531 47=41 357=973 3==147 41=357

                                                                ?
o==rre poa=N SA=PPE N=unni USU=AlI S=E===O 'XTR=A== B=VLK INC=RES
c'tc89 4olp9 2ctc89 lpcc89 4olpc89 ctclpt8  4olpaiv ctc89 4oqpc89
9==753 147=4 13=579 7=5314 741=357 9=7===5  314=7== 4=135 797=531

                                            ?     ?
OV==VM HA=RM MOD=D=OR VA=ETO SE=ON W=ITH SI=GN TOBU==
8c't89 8cc89 4olpcc89 oqpc89 oqpox qpc89 oqpc9 oxaiiv
41==35 79=75 314=7=41 35=797 53=14 7=413 57=97 5314==

PRA=I SI=V=RL V==N=T=O mEs=leto SE=IK O==D===OR'D Ani=s'm or
4olp9 9lpcc89 c'tccqp9 4oqpcc89 oqpc9 c'tclpoc8=9 solpo=x o2
741=3 57=9=75 3==1=4=7 413=5797 53=14 7==4===13=5 797=5=3 14



Note:

1. two weirdos.
   Line 1: <clpa>, with <a> connected to <c> on the left
   Last line: <clpo>, with <o> connected to <c> on the left

2. Line 3: Strong counted <aiv> (in: 4olpaiv) as a single letter.

3. It looks like a straight Vigenere cipher, with a 12-digit key:
   741357975314. But I can't get the Voynich from the English,
   even allowing for the occasional error. For instance, line 1
   I see L+3 enciphering as <c> once, and as <8> twice; but
   L=1 also enciphers as <c> and as <o> and L=5 as <8> on that
   same line. And on the next line, L+9 enciphers as <8> and
   L+4 as <o>.

4. Capital D and O look very much alike at first sight, but are fairly
   easy to tell apart: capital D is narrow, capital O full.

5. Strong writes the plume over <ct> sometimes as a plume, sometimes as
   a big circumflex, sometimes as a circle, sometimes as a half circle
   (a rounded circumflex). I have not distinguished them: the many
   remaining unambiguous characters should be enough to reconstruct the
   system if it is reconstructible.

6. <cc> is sometimes treated as a single letter, sometimes as two.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 24 19:05:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:59:54 -0800
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Transcription of file 003.GIF

RVE. O==K=ISMOT cri=rR E=YE=RK SI=FON OP T=VBE. S= E===NNC
8o2  c'tclpccx9 4olpox lpcct89 oqpc89 ox qpc89  ct cqptc89
741  3==5=79753 147=41 3=57=97 53=147 41 3=579  7= 5===314

URC=HON WHE=ALK PRU=GH= RE=ALL G=IRL a=ut TE *IS=M=ON OF
4olpc89 oxlpc89 4olpaiv olpc89 lpc89 qpox 89 4oqpct89 89
741=357 975=314 741=35= 79=753 1=474 1=35 79 753=1=47 41

                             (idel?)
WIT S=EE===K TO E= D===IT NOT I=DLE FOK=LUORE FIT= ES ME
so2 ctcclpt9 o2 ct clpt89 8ox lpc89 4oqpc8c89 4olp a2 ox
357 9-75===3 14 7= 4===13 579 7=531 474=1357* 753= 14 74

I M=E===ATH TRU=N=NL IQU=ERI SE=FLI O'ER IT NI=CLY | RUT=EN=
8 ctcqptc89 4olpct89 4olpc89 olpc89 8=ox o2 olpcc8 | oxlpaiv
1 3=5===797 531=4=74 135=797 53=147 4=13 57 97=531 | 474=13=

GLA=VE qu=IR or=gi= S=EM TE BELI'D
4olpox oqpc8 olpaiv ctc8 o2 axo2=9
579=75 31=47 41=35= 7=97 53 1474=1

Notes.

I have used an asterisk (*) to represent an illegible letter.

The first letter of the second last word, line 2, is unrecognizable
(*ISMON).  It is a cross between an "8" and a capital "P".

Where I have put pipes (|) before the last word of the second last line
there is a note, written sideways vertically, which reads:

   Change
   to Home

I am not sure about "Home", though (when are bloody medics going to
write legibly??? *sigh*). It makes no sense since there is no
interruption in the key which continues undisturbed: 47413...


Strong seems to confuse <lp> and <qp> occasionally (I have checked with
Petersen's), but this is of little import. I still cannot figure out his
method. Nor can I make any sense at all out of the plain text. It must
be an intermediate stage of the decipherment. All I understand is the
reference to Gaelic in his correspondence:  SEO (encountered  earlier)
is Scottish Gaelic  for "this, here" (it's pronounced "shaw" as in
"George Bernard Shaw"). Pure coincidence. Nothing else there looks or
sounds like Gaelic.

I have checked Strong's use of circumflex-like and circular plumes over
<ct> against Petersen's copy. They correspond to plain, open, plumes and
to "tight" plumes. The  latter ("tight" plume) looks very much like the
symbol for the unrounded back vowel ("pepet") in the Balinese script.
... another six months to our yearly  holiday in Bali (*sigh*)... you
know what's good about Bali? That country does not need a good five-cent
cigar, it's got one!  (It's got several, but I am partial to the Panter
cerutu, 1500 rupiah for a packet of ten, which works out at just about 5
cents US apiece, since US$1 is almost Rp 3000). Plumes are sometimes
found in strange places, as a look at Petersen's will readily teach you.
Over <a> sometimes, and my little eye  has spied them over... <4>! The
sad truth is, we don't really know about the nature of the Voynich
alphabet. Perhaps those plumes are vowels. Or consonants. Or mark the
absence of a vowel. Like in Sanskrit and other Indian writing systems. I
have fantasized about this before, and you all know about those
fantasies. Anyway, it's time for me to go back to bed (4.50 am). I have
long run out of Balinese cigars and my Havanas still need a month or two
in the humidor.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 25 23:26:02 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Repetitiveness of the VM
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:22:58 -0500 (EST)
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The way that the VM repeats, and particularly seems to repeat _locally_
makes me wonder if the words aren't secondary - if the real information
isn't being carried by some other feature (e.g. word length, final florish
or not, etc.) while the scribe attempts to make up words "randomly" within
the constraints of the scheme, a la glossalalia or "scat singing".

It would be interesting to record someone attempting to do this to see if
similar patterns occur. For example, try to send a message in Morse code
using nonsense syllables containing the vowel sounds "ah", "ee", "oh"
to represent "dash", "dot", or "space.

For example, the word "dog" could be represented by:

dah ree vee bo ga ga na no na la lee 

 -   .   .     -  -  -     -  -  . 
     D            O           G

The point would be to see what kind of words you would select while paying
attention to some feature other than their sound or spelling.

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 03:08:02 1997
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Dennis wrote:

> Thus we've gone from high-entropy Latin to nearly the low entropy of
> Voynich Herbal in Currier!

And Jacques:

> Well... that's it, isn't it?

> What we need now is an algorithm for reversing this digraph and >
trigraph encoding process.

I agree.

*but*

let's take a closer look at Dennis' "nearly" (I picked
the first of the three books of Kings and Voynichese A
without prejudice):

> Text        char   char    h0      h1      h2     h1 - h2   h2
> ----------  ----   -----   -----   -----   -----  ------   ----
> 1kingsa.cla   16   21658   4.000   3.673   2.410   1.263   34.4
> voyas.raw     25    8108   4.644   3.402   2.222   1.180   34.7

Look at the drop from h0 to h1. Note that for the book
of Kings h1 is still higher than for Voynichese, yet the
character set is *much* more restricted.
I'm afraid that some more work may be needed, before the
inverse process may be tackled properly. And that will be
coupled with a few more difficulties I don't need to
point out.

But I really like this line of approach.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 09:14:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:06:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
In-Reply-To: <C1256466.002A819E.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> And Jacques:
> 
> > Well... that's it, isn't it?
> 
> > What we need now is an algorithm for reversing this digraph and >
> trigraph encoding process.

	I think what would be useful here would be to compare the A and B
languages.  If we assume that the underlying system and language are the
same, that should teach at least a little more about them.  

> let's take a closer look at Dennis' "nearly" (I picked
> the first of the three books of Kings and Voynichese A
> without prejudice):
> 
> > Text        char   char    h0      h1      h2     h1 - h2   h2
> > ----------  ----   -----   -----   -----   -----  ------   ----
> > 1kingsa.cla   16   21658   4.000   3.673   2.410   1.263   34.4
> > voyas.raw     25    8108   4.644   3.402   2.222   1.180   34.7
> 
> Look at the drop from h0 to h1. Note that for the book
> of Kings h1 is still higher than for Voynichese, yet the
> character set is *much* more restricted.
> I'm afraid that some more work may be needed, before the
> inverse process may be tackled properly. And that will be
> coupled with a few more difficulties I don't need to
> point out.

	Yes, I'll have to think about this.  

> But I really like this line of approach.

	Yes!  It looks good.  

	Here's something else to think about.  One would expect this
approach, which encodes single phonemes as 2-4 letters, to result in words
that would be quite long.  However, Voynichese words are rather short. 
Gabriel's word length versus frequency plots drop off quite sharply at the
longer word lengths. 

	One possible explanation for this is that word divisions are
actually syllable divisions.  However, I have not yet seen an example of a
phonemic orthography that does this.  Up to perhaps 800 AD, ancient Ms and
inscriptions have no word divisions at all; after that approximate point,
they divide words much as modern texts do.  

	Of course, there's always a first time!  

	Consider this.  I asked Jacques, and he confirmed, that modern
spoken French does not divide words.  You simply have a stream of
undifferentiated syllables in the spoken language.  The written word
divisions are due to the French language's historic relation to Latin.  

	I believe that this change took place during the change from Old
French to Medieval French.  I believe that Old French has stressed
syllables somewhat as Latin and Spanish do.  

	A language that behaved like this -- that did not divide words in
its spoken form -- would be a good candidate for a script that only showed
divisions at syllable breaks.  

	I know that many Native American languages behave like this, but I
don't know of any languages other than French like this in and around
Europe.  Does anyone else?

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 09:53:04 1997
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From: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
Message-Id: <9703261449.AA78244@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
To: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:49:26 +0100 (MET)
Cc: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970326085228.4540D-100000@candy.micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at Mar 26, 97 09:06:54 am
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> 	A language that behaved like this -- that did not divide words in
> its spoken form -- would be a good candidate for a script that only showed
> divisions at syllable breaks.  

I am not too convinced that this fact (separating syllables by spaces
instead of words) would provide us with a hint as to the unterlying
language.  It could also depend on the difficulty of the encryption
scheme:  if the scribe was able to encrypt a few letters at a time,
then it would habe been natural for him to write a few coded letters,
leave a little space, and then go on to the next few letters/the next
syllable.  Especially if the scribe did not care for word separations
in the first place, then introducing artificial breaks in the cipher
would not have bothered the scribe, but would have made the cipher
even more intriguing to the untrained eye (ie. us).

In addition to that I know no language where one actually pauses at
the word boundary, so if pausing was the criterium to check wether
words are not divided in its spoken form, then all of the following
would be good candidates:  German, Swiss German, English, French,
Portuguese -- I don't divide words in these languages/dialects (in the
spoken form), it's just a stream of syllables.
-- 
Rhamm Groohm! Auuurgh! Ogouuun. Ooorgh! Ooorgh! alex@zool.unizh.ch.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 11:02:04 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:58:28 +0200
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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alex@zool.unizh.ch writes:

> ..... so if pausing was the criterium to check wether
> words are not divided in its spoken form, then all of
> the following would be good candidates:  German,
> Swiss German, English, French, Portuguese

Hmm, this is the first time I see Swiss German mentioned
in (albeit loose) connection with the VMs. I could try
to be funny and say the VMs cannot be in Swiss German
because the VMs can be made pronouncible with the right
choice of alphabet, but I sure would not like to offend
anyone.

Anyway, is there any tradition of written Swiss German?
If so, how far does it go back? When did the language
become distinct from other Germanic languages?

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 10:35:04 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:29:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
cc: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
In-Reply-To: <9703261449.AA78244@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
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On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Alex Schroeder wrote:

> > 	A language that behaved like this -- that did not divide words in
> > its spoken form -- would be a good candidate for a script that only showed
> > divisions at syllable breaks.  
> 
> I am not too convinced that this fact (separating syllables by spaces
> instead of words) would provide us with a hint as to the unterlying
> language.  It could also depend on the difficulty of the encryption
> scheme:  if the scribe was able to encrypt a few letters at a time,
> then it would habe been natural for him to write a few coded letters,
> leave a little space, and then go on to the next few letters/the next
> syllable.  Especially if the scribe did not care for word separations
> in the first place, then introducing artificial breaks in the cipher
> would not have bothered the scribe, but would have made the cipher
> even more intriguing to the untrained eye (ie. us).

	We've already done statistical tests that show that the word
breaks are not random.  Certain letters and letter combinations congregate
at word boundaries.  Pausing during encryption would, as you say, depend
on the difficulty of the system and the scribe's familiarity with it.
However, the script is very flowing and there are no corrections.  These
things don't suggest difficulty.

> In addition to that I know no language where one actually pauses at
> the word boundary, so if pausing was the criterium to check wether
> words are not divided in its spoken form, then all of the following
> would be good candidates:  German, Swiss German, English, French,
> Portuguese -- I don't divide words in these languages/dialects (in the
> spoken form), it's just a stream of syllables.

	I'm not sure about pausing at word boundaries, which is why I
asked Jacques, who has a PhD in linguistics and is a native speaker of
French.  In the other languages you mention, certain syllables are
stressed in each word; this is what would mark out words.  In French alone
each syllable is stressed equally.  

Dennis





From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 10:47:02 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:40:45 GMT
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Subject: Recent contributions
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1.  Word division in scripts.  There is a cursive form of mediaeval Greek script
which largely ignores word division and comes close to dividing words into
syllables (what actually happens is that scribes tried to write as many strokes
as possible, including accents, without lifting pen from paper, and then
began again after leaving a gap - the effect is roughly syllabic).

2.  I am toying with the idea of Greek for another reason - the much discussed
repeat '40FC89.40FC89'.  If Voynich words are syllables, then
'40FC89.40FC89' might well be a complete word, and it is hard to think of a
common word or phrase in a common language which consists of the same syllable
repeated.  I have considered Latin 'sese' (a somewhat affected variant of 'se',
'himself') and German 'den den' (roughly 'him whom', but common in German) -
and Greek 'toutou' ('of this') which is considerably more frequent than the
first two.  

'40FC89' is often followed by another word beginning with '40F', and these
groups might be the inflected forms 'touton', 'toutwn' etc. Words beginning
with '40F' are often preceded by '8ZC89', a group which is often initial and
never final in the biological B material on which I concentrate:  these
sequences might conceivably be 'autou', 'autwn' and so on.  Groups beginning
with '40F' seem not to occur in captions to the illustrations:  one would
not expect a picture to be captioned with an article or determiner, and other
words in Greek beginning with 'to' or 'tw' are rare.

3.  Whether or not the above is on the right lines, I have been considering
how Voynich text might be generated on the 'Monkey business' principle.
Dennis recently proposed a set of rewrite rules, 'w --> uu', 'f --> ph' and so
on.  Now if I have interpreted the rules correctly, they have the property that
if two ciphergroups are identical except that one group has an additional letter
somewhere, then the corresponding plaintext groups must also differ by just one
letter:  you can only get pairs of ciphergroups like 'phin' and 'pin' from
plaintext pairs like 'fin' and 'pin'.  Furthermore, if ambiguity is to be
avoided, a substitution which legitimates 'fin --> phin' excludes a substitution
which legitimates 'pan --> phin':  and I think this means that the number of
such pairs in which a given group participates cannot be less than the number
of letters in its plaintext form.  Now '40FC89' differs in this way from
'840FC89', '40EFC89', '40FZC89', '40FCC89' and '40FC89E' - which ought to mean
that its plaintext original had at least five letters, which is not much of
a reduction on the existing six.

4.  Lastly a brief word about Rayman's interpretation of Strong's decipherment.
He claims it is 'not too difficult to imagine' someone in the sixteenth century
coming up with a sentence containing the word 'folklore'.  This word is well
known to be a pseudo-archaic coinage of Victorian origin (the earliest citation
in the OED is dated 1846).  The form 'pismon' is unknown to dictionaries I have
consulted;  'okra', which I think we had a few days ago is first attested in
1707; and I also find the senses given to 'girl' and 'fight' very forced.  In
short, I find it difficult to imagine someone actually coming up with the 
sentences in question and easy to imagine Strong mangling English to suit his
theory.

Philip Neal
Department of Computer Science
University of Essex


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 11:23:04 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:01:51 +0000
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Hi all,

On 26 Mar 97 at 15:40, Neal P wrote:
> 2.  I am toying with the idea of Greek for another reason - the much discussed
> repeat '40FC89.40FC89'.  If Voynich words are syllables, then
> '40FC89.40FC89' might well be a complete word, and it is hard to think of a
> common word or phrase in a common language which consists of the same syllable
> repeated.  I have considered Latin 'sese' (a somewhat affected variant of 'se',
> 'himself') and German 'den den' (roughly 'him whom', but common in German) -
> and Greek 'toutou' ('of this') which is considerably more frequent than the
> first two.  

I see the point. The repetition of words is indeed very 
worrying. In eva: daiin dain aiin -type of repetition is not 
uncommon at all. However this could be something like : Amen, amen
or some spell sequence with lots of repetitions...

I suppose that the VMS is not in Japanese, but this type of 
word repetition is very common: (note that Japanese can be written 
with no separation between words)

toki doki (sometimes)
peko peko (hungry)
pota pota yaki (a brand of rice cakes :-) 
giri giri (almost)
baka bakashii (something like "in a silly way")
soro soro (something like "very soon")
hana bana (flower)

cheers,

Gabriel
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 11:21:00 1997
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From: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
Message-Id: <9703261617.AA47336@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:17:20 +0100 (MET)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <C1256466.00571440.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> from "rzandber@esoc.esa.de" at Mar 26, 97 04:58:28 pm
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> Anyway, is there any tradition of written Swiss German?

No, there is none that I know of.  Before the "Duden" all German
speakers wrote their own dialects, by the ear.  The Duden is a book
about 100 years old, just recently revised, and is the
state-of-the-art in German orthography. The Swiss write German at the
moment as published in the Duden.

In my mail I just wanted to indicate that in its spoken (and only)
form, Swiss German gives no indication of word boundaries.

Alex - a biology and computer science student of
Austrian-French-etc. ancestry living in Switzerland.
-- 
Rhamm Groohm! Auuurgh! Ogouuun. Ooorgh! Ooorgh! alex@zool.unizh.ch.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 11:32:02 1997
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From: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
Message-Id: <9703261625.AA35557@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
To: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:25:53 +0100 (MET)
Cc: alex@zool.unizh.ch, rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970326102400.8708A-100000@candy.micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at Mar 26, 97 10:29:34 am
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> Pausing during encryption would, as you say, depend
> on the difficulty of the system and the scribe's familiarity with it.
> However, the script is very flowing and there are no corrections.  These
> things don't suggest difficulty.

Suppose that the scribe has to look up each syllable in a table.
Since he is encoding syllables, the statistics will show the "words"
to have no-random boundaries.  As the scribe has to look up, he takes
his pen of the page and after a quick look continues to write.  
I think this sort of cipher could still look flowing, and be free of
corrections.  Corrections might be unnecessary because some of the
letter we see are interchangeable for the code.

I don't want to suggest this as the solution for the apparent word
boundaries, the repetiteveness or the difference between languages A
and B -- I started out by saying that having a written form of a
language that separates certain elements of the text (syllables,
words) does not automatically mean that the language in its spoken
form reflects this (by pausing between words or standard emphasis
patterns when speaking a word, etc).

Alex.
-- 
Rhamm Groohm! Auuurgh! Ogouuun. Ooorgh! Ooorgh! alex@zool.unizh.ch.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 11:44:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:35:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
cc: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
In-Reply-To: <9703261625.AA35557@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
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On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Alex Schroeder wrote:

> I don't want to suggest this as the solution for the apparent word
> boundaries, the repetiteveness or the difference between languages A
> and B -- I started out by saying that having a written form of a
> language that separates certain elements of the text (syllables,
> words) does not automatically mean that the language in its spoken
> form reflects this (by pausing between words or standard emphasis
> patterns when speaking a word, etc).

	Quite so.  I believe that in written Arabic words are separated
according to orthographic rules (which letters may and may not contact)
and not entirely according to speech patterns.  

	I'd still like to know whether any other language spoken in or
around Europe stresses all syllables equally as French does.  I don't
think that any other Indo-European language does (although Jacques has
talked about the bizarre properties of Faetar!)  Hungarian and Finnish
more or less always stress the first syllable of a word.  I believe
Turkish does the same.  I don't know the rule for Arabic, but I'm pretty
sure that there's a distinctive syllable stressed in words.  I don't know
about Basque <shudder - shades of Edo Nyland!  ;-)  >

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 11:50:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:47:35 -0800
From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199703261647.IAA25814@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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Status: OR

Dennis says:
> 	I'd still like to know whether any other language spoken in or
> around Europe stresses all syllables equally as French does.  I don't
...
> sure that there's a distinctive syllable stressed in words.  I don't know
> about Basque <shudder - shades of Edo Nyland!  ;-)  >

My Basque grammar punts on the stress issue: rather than trying to give
any rules it simply says you need to find a native speaker of one of the
seven or so dialects and try to emulate his or her stresses.  I gather from
that it's not equally stressed... at least not in all dialects... because
that would've been an easy rule to state!

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 11:56:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:50:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Recent contributions
In-Reply-To: <9703261602.AA00128@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
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On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> I suppose that the VMS is not in Japanese, but this type of 
> word repetition is very common: (note that Japanese can be written 
> with no separation between words)
> 
> toki doki (sometimes)
> peko peko (hungry)
> pota pota yaki (a brand of rice cakes :-) 
> giri giri (almost)
> baka bakashii (something like "in a silly way")
> soro soro (something like "very soon")
> hana bana (flower)

	In Malay or Bahasa Indonesia, repeating the noun is the way one
forms the plural.  Orang means man, orang orang means men; one writes
orang orang as orang2.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 12:38:03 1997
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From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:34:33 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: polysynthetic languages
Status: OR

Dennis notes:

>Consider this. I asked Jacques, and he confirmed, that modern spoken French
does not divide words. You simply have a stream of undifferentiated syllables
in the spoken language. The written word divisions are due to the French
language's historic relation to Latin. 
 
>A language that behaved like this -- that did not divide words in its spoken
form -- would be a good candidate for a script that only showed divisions at
syllable breaks.  

>I know that many Native American languages behave like this, but I don't
know of any languages other than French like this in and around Europe. Does
anyone else?<

The traditional linguistic term for languages like this is "polysynthetic".
There is no firm distinction in such languages between a word and a sentence.
I think there are others in and around Europe, but I couldn't tell you any.
Languages of the Algonkian family in North America often are polysynthetic.

The problem with French is that it doesn't have very clear syllable divisions
either - syllables collapse as the speed of speech increases. Rapid English
and French both do this: "Did you eat yet?" becomes "jeechet?" and
French....uh-oh, I can't spell any of the French examples I'm thinking of!

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Mar 25 18:05:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:47:30 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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Dennis:

> Thus we've gone from high-entropy Latin to nearly the low entropy of
> Voynich Herbal in Currier!

Well... that's it, isn't it? 

What we need now is an algorithm for reversing this digraph and trigraph
encoding process.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 13:23:09 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:22:10 -0500 (EST)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Recent contributions
Status: OR

Philip Neal writes about repeating words in Greek and German -

These are fairly common in English - "had had" and "that that" are probably
the most frequent, but there are others. Spell checkers often query them.

More remarkable utterances occur: An innkeeper complaining about the painting
of his tavern sign:

PIG     AND    WHISTLE

"There's too much space between "pig" and "and" and "and" and whistle!"

Even worse is the Hawaiian Pidgin (Hawaiian Creole to the politically
correct, but don't say it in Waianae) utterance about feeding livestock, with
eleven cows in a row:

Horse no cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow

or more informatively "Horse no kaukau cow kaukau, cow kaukau cow kaukau."

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 21:38:01 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:34:57 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: Garbling the MS
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------4832446FD20"
Status: OR

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------------4832446FD20
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Well, I've been having so much fun reading all the discussions about
MONKEY that I thought I'd try some... I'll take a stab in the dark here,
but I don't think this really works on a syllabic alphabet does it?
Anyways, I assigned a single character to each syllable from my
alphabet, resulting in 41 characters - the result was h0 5.35755,
h1=3.95735 and h2=2.20164. A sample page of the text (looking highly
cryptic) is attached. Well, it was fun anyways and created a great
looking mess!

			John.
------------4832446FD20
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="garbled.txt"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="garbled.txt"

             +Ax2qw Ax2qw +Ax2lw Ax2lw aqw +Ax2w
             auxU +AxUbr Ax2lw y9K Ax29vw b2bvw
             +Ax3l Ax3qw alw +Ax2lw +Axlw Ax2lw v9X
             aqw +Axlw AxU bm v9X b7qw v9K vw v9K
            +Ax2uT +Ax2qw Ax3qw aqw +Ax2qw vAxU AxU2lw vAxU 3l9X
            aqAxU bqw Ax2qw Ax39U b7Axvw +Ax3qw vAx2qw vAxU U2m +Ax2wvw
            var AxU2bw vAxU AxU Ax3qw Ax2qw Ax2qw +Ax2qw v9U v9T AxU bqw y9
            K +Ax2aqw +Ax2lw v9K bA4w Ax29U AxU 2qw bqw vAxU2qw Ax2q9X
            yAxK AxU bqw +AxU 2qw ar +Ax2qw +Ax2r vAxUw AxU aqw +Ax2qw
            +Ax2m Ax3AxU bqw v9K vAxU alw bqw Ax2qw T2bvw 2AxU 29Uvw
            vam +Ax2lw w2qw +Ax2AxT aqw +Ax2w v9U a7w +Ax29sa AxU2AxUvw
            yAxU29T AxUAx29T aA2w a2AxU +Ax2AxT bvw 39U aqw Ax29T Ax2qw aqw vw
            39Uaw +Ax2w +Ax2qw aqw +Ax2lw
           1bAxU aqw a39U Ax2qw Ax1bAxU AxT 2bvw Ax5bqw y9K 8m AxUy
            Axar 3qw Ax29K ar +Ax2qw 2bvw Ax2qw Ax2r vw Ax2qw AxUavw
            Ax29T +Ax2m AxU29K Ax2AxU aqw 4w 2AxTAxU AxT9T
            wv9soAxU wbm Ax2lw AxU29K AxUbr y9K AxUw
            wb7w +Ax29K Ax29K AxUAxU Ax29U bqw bqw
            vaqw AxU +Ax29T aqw +AxU Ax3qw AxUbqw
            * AxT aqw +AxU 2lw AxUbqw AxU29U
            v9U aqw +Ax2qw aqw v9K v9K
            yAxK aqw +Ax2m v9K Ax2qw AxUvw
            +Ax2r AxU 2l +Ax2qw +Ax2r +Ax2uxUw
            b9U v9K Ax39U bvw Ax39U b7AxT 9Uw
            +Ax2qw ar 29U Ax2qw w5bqw 3qw UAxUAxT
            Ax2bvw aqw +Ax2r +Ax2qw br v9T Ax2r Ax2Aaw AxUbw
            yAxUbr +Ax29K AxU bqw AxUbr y9U AxT bvw vbr Ax2rUbw
            v9soAxUvw aAxT AxU Ax29K aqw AxU aqw *AxUAx2lw bqw Ax2qw UAxU
            vAxTbw +Ax2r yAxU 2qw Ax2r U29K ar as AxU aqw +Ax2m TAxT
            +7w b7w +Ax29K ar v9K +Ax2m v9K Ax29K +Ax29U vw
            y Axbqw +Ax2br +Ax2lw Ax2qw vAxUAxT AxU bqw Ax3uxU AxUAxU
            Uaqw +AxU 9K Ax2r AxUbr Ubr AxUaqw a7w yAxUw
            w3l9T AxU2m AxUbr +Ax2r U2uxUvw v9K AxU2qw w29K
            yAxT Ax3s vAxU 2qw Ax3AxU bqw
           1vauxvw avAxU ar Ax3bvw vaqw yAxgw vbA5Axr y9so aqw yAxv9so ar
            wAxK bm +Ax4vw Ax3qw vAxU AxT9K Ax2av Ax2bqw Ax3qw b7vw Ax39X
            39T9T Ax3qw Ax1bm w2v9so bw +Ax3qw +Ax2bvw Ax3qw buxU y9K Ax3 v9X
            Axvu v9K +Ax2Abw v9K b7bw AxUaqw +Ax2lw vAxU 3avw Ax39T Ax3bvw AxUy
            3bqw 2bqw +Axv9K AxU2lw AxT9K AxUaqw Ax2bw 2qw 3qw 3v9X
            TAxT9K ar 1br +Ax2m bAxT AxU aqw
           1bqw AxT9K aA5bvw +Ax19T alw +Ax2qw +Ax3bqw 2bv9T w1bvw Uv9
            v9K b7vw +Ax3bvw Ax1byv +Ax2bvw Ax3bw +Axv9U v9K v9U av9T AxT9X
            3al Ubr +Ax2Aaw v9so aq9T auxU +Ax9T bAx5bvw +Ax3v3w Ax59T
           v9so bAx39K buxv buxU2lw
          1v9T AxU av9so +Ax1blw v9U bv9U bAxT aA5 aAxTAx T9K v9UAxT 9K Ax1929X
           3v9K Ax2uxvw Ubvw U2AxT Axn9Tw v9T aq9K Ax3Ax v9K vU9T 9su
------------4832446FD20--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 03:08:07 1997
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Subject: Words (was: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts)
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Jacques brought us:

> Given a Rosetta stone, we could figure out that cnoc
> is "hillock", clan is "son", that fear and fhear is
> "man", without the slightest notion of what those letters
> actually represent.

Jacques, if you're hiding a Voynichese Rosetta stone somewhere,
please tell us. You don't even have to show it, just
so that we know. :-)

Of course, in its absence, it would help us greatly to know
that 8AM/8aiiv/daiin is really the same as AM/aiiv/aiin
or that SOE/ctox/chol just represents one aspirated
vowel (to name some arbitrary examples).

on Dennis':

>> We've already done statistical tests that show that the word
>> breaks are not random. Certain letters and letter combinations
>> congregate at word boundaries.

> No, no, no! .... They congregate near spaces, ends of lines,
> and ends of paragraphs (or starts). Those are not necessarily
> word boundaries. (some Arabic examples deleted (RZ))
Apart from being pedantic and saying that there are only
two types of characters, namely those that can connect to
the left and those that can't, but as a result some are not
allowed to connect to the right while they really could,
I think a useful point is:

> Note that in Voynichese most letters that occur at "word"
> breaks feature a flourish. Is the flourish a variant of the
> letter when it occurs word-finally, or is it what
> prevents the next letter to connect to it? We don't know.

I suppose (but thinking about it I'm not too sure after all)
that for Arabic we know the flourish is 'caused by' the break
and not v.v. For Voynichese we have to be extremely careful.
For example a P/qp/t is often offset somewhat from a
preceding O/o/o, apparently just to leave room for the left loop.
Still, my feeling is that we have some evidence that
whoever composed the Voynich script was familiar with
Arabic.

> What we can be (almost) sure of, however, is that whatever can
> end a line can also end a word.

To emphasise your 'almost' I'd like to name 6/cg/g which (almost)
exclusively occurs line-final. And I'm not too sure about
paragraph-final. As I said before, it almost seems to play
the role of our word-breaking hyphen (underscore in Italian).

> Indeed, the distribution of letters is not the same
> line-initially and line-finally as it is before and
> after spaces

A feature Arabic does not seem to have. There's always a snag
to every fine theory.

> What we can be (quite) sure of is that whatever can end or
> start a *paragraph* can also end or start a word.

But the converse is not true, which again Currier has
first recorded.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 05:05:02 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 26 Mar 97 at 9:47, Jacques Guy wrote:
> Well... that's it, isn't it? 
> 
> What we need now is an algorithm for reversing this digraph and trigraph
> encoding process.

If this is the case, then the next questions are:

1. the spaces are null, because the digraph/trigraph encoding would 
increase the word length, an as we know the size and token length 
distibutions are shorted than a few kanguages. (These 2 graphs are in 
my article on Zipf's laws in the EVMT site)

or

2. on top of this "redundant encoding" there is an abbreviation. I 
wonder if this, though, would bring the entropy up again.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 05:20:04 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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(regarding my just previous post)
Oops, this happens when you write replies to old messages before 
reading the new ones... sorry!

Gabriel


On 26 Mar 97 at 9:06, Dennis wrote:
> 	Here's something else to think about.  One would expect this
> approach, which encodes single phonemes as 2-4 letters, to result in words
> that would be quite long.  However, Voynichese words are rather short. 
> Gabriel's word length versus frequency plots drop off quite sharply at the
> longer word lengths. 
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 06:05:02 1997
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From: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
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Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
To: voynich@rand.org (Voynich)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:01:39 +0100 (MET)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970326131109.18763A-100000@candy.micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at Mar 26, 97 01:14:13 pm
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> 	Hi, Alex!  I got this just after I mailed my query on this
> subject.  Are you indeed saying that in Schwitzertuetsch, every syllable
> is stressed equally, as in modern spoken French?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but if I speak German and Swiss
German fast (as I am bound to in everyday conversation), then
syllables are stressed to convey emphasis, not words, eg:

"didyouhearWHAThesaid? IcantbelieveheSAIDsuchaludicrousthing."

I think most languages do this.  In English you could claim that there
was some sort of rythm in the second phrase: 

"Icant BElieve HEsaid SUCHa"

quite iambic, but it breaks down towards the end:

"LUdicrousthing"

In German:

"HASTdugehoertwaserdagradegesagthat? IchkannesnichtFASSEN
DASSersoetwas LAECHERlichesgesagthat."

or SwissGerman:

"HAESCHghoertwaserdagradgseidhaet? IchchasnoedFASSE
dasdersoOEPPIS WEICHS gseithaet."

But back to the english example, if I where to write it down, I might
write:

"didyou hear what hesaid? i cant beliebe hesaid sucha ludi crous thing" 

This has nothing to do with my pronounciation of the spoken text, and
no relation to word boundaries.  The reasons for the gaps could be due
to calligraphic reasons (arabic), encoding reasons (difficulty) etc.
And yet they are not randomly distributet, a lot of them do,
incidentally, appear at word or syllable boundaries.

Alex.
-- 
Rhamm Groohm! Auuurgh! Ogouuun. Ooorgh! Ooorgh! alex@zool.unizh.ch.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 15:26:02 1997
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Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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When I said: 
>> What we need now is an algorithm for reversing this digraph and 
>> trigraph encoding process.

I spoke without thinking. I was stupid. 

It does not matter how many letters are used to represent one.
Just think: it matters not one iota that bh and mh are [v] in
Gaelic, that chd and c are [xk], that dh and gh are sounded
alike, that fh and sh are silent, that h and th are [h], that 
cn is [kxr] and so on. 

We don't have to reconstitute the phonetics that hide beneath the
spelling to decipher Gaelic. Given a Rosetta stone, we could figure 
out that cnoc is "hillock", clan is "son", that fear and fhear is
"man", without the slightest notion of what those letters
actually represent. 

Same for Voynichese.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 15:23:02 1997
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   From  Denis V Mardle             27 March 1997

On  Wed, 26 Mar 97 16:35:44 GMT  Dennis ( you I hope ! ) wrote

<<      I don't know
         about Basque <shudder - shades of Edo Nyland!  ;-)  >

 I presume you read recently that the Basque language has been
shown to be closely related to Etruscan, especially where death is
involved on monuments etc

  Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 12:59:03 1997
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         From  Denis V Mardle        27   March 1997

 on  Wed, 26 Mar 97 16:25:53 GMT  Alex Schroeder wrote

<<<<<
Suppose that the scribe has to look up each syllable in a table.
Since he is encoding syllables, the statistics will show the "words"
to have no-random boundaries.  As the scribe has to look up, he takes
his pen of the page and after a quick look continues to write.  
I think this sort of cipher could still look flowing, and be free of
corrections.  Corrections might be unnecessary because some of the
letter we see are interchangeable for the code.        >>>>>>>

  Interesting    I made the point about codes recently, especially noticeable
where labels are concerned. Take 'star' names for example  Pisces, f70v2
 with 16 starting OP    These are ( collapsing out spaces )
       C1     OPAEAE  ( The central star also found in the last word but one of
                                   the outer ring )
    S1.5     OPAE  8                                S1.2     OP  9AR
    S1.6     OPAE  8AR                           S1.19   OP  9
    S1.10   OPAE  9                               
    S1.11   OPAEARAR                          S1.18   OPAR
    S1.12   OPAE   8  9                           S2.2     OPARAJ
    S1.16   OPAEAK                               S2.3     OPARAE
    S2.4     OPAEAR
    S2.5     OPAEAJ                                S1.4    OPO8  9

                                                              S2.8    OP  CO2AE

     S1.3    OFAE  9                                S1.8    OB  9  2AJ

     S2.10  OFAE  8AE                           S1.9    SX  C  9

      S2.7   OFARAJ                               S1.17  9FAR  9
                                                             S2.1    9FOEAM
      S1.1   OF  9O8  9
      S1.14 OF  9   8  9                            S2.6     8OEARAJ

      S1.7   OFO8  9                                 S2.9     2AEOE  2

      S1.13 OF  COE  9
      S1.15 OFCC  2  

 Incidentally S1.13 and S1.14 both occur on Libra, f72v1.   Neither  Pisces
nor Libra has a star name repeat within the labels on the page.   I hope
many will agree that the endings are very like table positions.

   I hope to be able to say more on this subject soon

  Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Mar 26 17:35:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:29:25 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Words (was: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970326102400.8708A-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
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Dennis wrote:
 
>         We've already done statistical tests that show that the word
> breaks are not random.  Certain letters and letter combinations congregate
> at word boundaries.

No, no, no! We've been through that before. They congregate near spaces,
ends of lines, and ends of paragraphs (or starts). Those are not
necessarily
word boundaries. Thus, for instance, if I write "head" in Arabic, I have
to
write it: r a s. But if I write "river" I write it: nhr (no spaces).
This
is merely because some letters can connect to the left, some to the
right,
some left and right, and some not a all. Note that in Voynichese most
letters that occur at "word" breaks feature a flourish. Is the flourish
a variant of the letter when it occurs word-finally, or is it what
prevents the next letter to connect to it? We don't know.

What we can be (almost) sure of, however, is that whatever can end
a line can also end a word. Indeed, the distribution of letters
is not the same line-initially and line-finally as it is before
and after spaces (Currier had remarked on it, saying that the line
seemed to be a unit).

What we can be (quite) sure of is that whatever can end or start a
*paragraph* can also end or start a word.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 13:02:03 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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   From Denis V Mardle

  On  Thu, 27 Mar 97 15:21:31 GMT    Jacques Guy  writes

<<<
We don't have to reconstitute the phonetics that hide beneath the
spelling to decipher Gaelic. Given a Rosetta stone, we could figure 
out that cnoc is "hillock", clan is "son", that fear and fhear is
"man", without the slightest notion of what those letters
actually represent. 

Same for Voynichese.
                  >>>>>>>>

Exactly.  That is how codes work.  As in " Come to 4539 in the year  7708
and see the  3488  5565 "  You don't even  need the language to be
right to get the meaning  ( except 7708 can have alternate values paired
with those for 4539 )

  On another subject I have made good progress in reconstructing Dr.
Strong's worksheet for f93r use the two versions on interln.txt ( neither
are very good in parts and have a pretty good idea where to put his
text from W24 helped by the incomplete ( and sometimes contradictory )
 W25 and W26.  I have the slides more or less correct until near the
end  of word LUVVLVOR.  This demonstrates, as I had suspected, that
he put in a longish stretch of 'plain' text and went to the next ( entirely
arbitrary} key row if he had a value differing from those above.  this
checks with W12  and even more important fills the top part of the
columns of  W15 where he tries to put f78r and f93r together in what I 
believe to be an unsound manner.  I don't think he realised they were in
different hands.  I am going to have to produce as rigorous a statistical
demonstration as I can later, but my conclusion is fairly obvious.

  Denis 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 13:29:05 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Mar 27 16:47:04 1997
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:28:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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cc: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>, VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Re Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
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>   On  Thu, 27 Mar 97 15:21:31 GMT    Jacques Guy  writes
> 
> We don't have to reconstitute the phonetics that hide beneath the
> spelling to decipher Gaelic. Given a Rosetta stone, we could figure 
> out that cnoc is "hillock", clan is "son", that fear and fhear is
> "man", without the slightest notion of what those letters
> actually represent. 
> 
> Same for Voynichese.

	Quite so.  However, we do not in fact have a Rosetta stone.  (If
you have one, please inform us of this!)  The nearest we can come is to
try to match words with pictures.  Since the pictures are not well
precedented, this hasn't worked too well so far.  

	As you know, modern written Gaelic doesn't correspond well with
the spoken language because the spoken language changed and the
orthography didn't, much as with English and French.  

	If we didn't know the Voynich alphabet, but knew for certain that
the underlying language was related to, say, Welsh, then the problem would
be much easier.  I believe that Old Persian cuneiform was solved in much
this way.  

Cheers,
Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 28 02:14:02 1997
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unsubscribe

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Mar 28 11:35:10 1997
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Just a reminder -- unsubscribe messages should not be sent to the
list, voynich@rand.org.  They should come to me, i.e. jim@acm.org,
or to voynich-request@rand.org.

If you sent the message below, contact me again without mailing to
the full list.  I don't see any address on the list resembling your
address.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org
	List administrator

------------------------------------

> From: root <gil@gilbaby.dinoco.de>
> Subject: unsubscribe
> To: voynich@rand.org
> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:08:43 +0100 (MET)
> 
> unsubscribe
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr  3 00:50:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:36:41 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Words (was: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts)
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
 
> I suppose (but thinking about it I'm not too sure after all)
> that for Arabic we know the flourish is 'caused by' the break

Yes for some letters. For instance, b, f, t, n, m, s, sh... have
a flourish when word-final. Word-medially and word-initially they
connect directly to the next letter. Other letters, like, d, r, z,
etc. end in a flourish which *prevents* them from connecting to the
next letter. That is why "dar" is written "d a r", and "bab" is
written "ba b". 

 
> To emphasise your 'almost' I'd like to name 6/cg/g which (almost)
> exclusively occurs line-final. And I'm not too sure about
> paragraph-final. As I said before, it almost seems to play
> the role of our word-breaking hyphen (underscore in Italian).

I never thought of that. To me, 6/cg/g was a variant of ... probably
8, before a pause.
 
> > Indeed, the distribution of letters is not the same
> > line-initially and line-finally as it is before and
> > after spaces
 
> A feature Arabic does not seem to have. There's always a snag
> to every fine theory.

Uh? I don't know... I have never counted the distribution of 
letter in Arabic.  But come to think of it... Arabic writes
only the long vowels (and not always). The verb comes usually
at the beginning of the sentence. The last word of a sentence is
usually a noun or an adjective. So, yes, it seems to me that
the distribution of letters would be about the same at line breaks
and at word breaks.

But now take Japanese. Sentences always end with a verb, optionally
followed by one of a handful of particles (ne, ka, yo, zo). The
verb will mostly end in -masu, -mashita, or be "desu", "deshita".
The range of sentence-final endings will be strikingly different
from that of word-final endings (and line-final endings). 
 
> > What we can be (quite) sure of is that whatever can end or
> > start a *paragraph* can also end or start a word.
 
> But the converse is not true, which again Currier has
> first recorded.


Yes, and do we have the beginning of a key there? Think about
what I wrote about Arabic and Japanese. We can almost be sure
that the ends of paragraphs are also the ends of sentences in the
VMS. If Voynichese sentences, like Japanese, Burmese, Hindi etc.,
end with a verb always or almost always, and if verbs are
characterized by distinctive endings, then the endings of 
paragraphs will not show the same distribution as the endings
of words (verbs, nouns, prepositions, or other parts of 
speech). Likewise, if a Voynich sentence starts with a noun, and
nouns are usually preceded by an article, then again, we will
observe a very different letter distribution at the beginning
of paragraphs and at the beginning of words.

Currier was right in his observations, but he was wrong in
being puzzled by them. Such "strange" distributions are nothing
to marvel at. But perhaps they can tell us something about the
grammar (I should strictly say "syntax") of Voynichese.

Another thing they can perhaps tell us. If it is a cipher,
what kind of a cipher could possibly produce such patterns?
That was a rhetorical question: I don't believe a cipher 
can do it. We have to imagine that nulls were added at the
end of paragraphs. That does not make much sense as a 
secure cipher.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 29 02:02:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:45:14 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Re Re: VMS. Strong. 003.GIF
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Spend a few days away from your e-mail and look what happens - 

This word should be read "PISMON" - its meaning is akin to 'pissemyre'. 
"Reall girl, aut the pismon of wit, seek to edit not idle folkloure fites
me" (or something like that - if you wish I will refer to the texts from
now on and not my sloppy memory.)


My translation is this - "Reall girl" (A woman of fertile age, a rightful
woman) "aut the pismon of wit" (with the brains of a pissmire/common sense
of a piss ant) "seek to edit not idle folkloure" (who accepts the idle
wive's tales of others without question) "fites me".  (makes me angry).  It
isn't too difficult to imagine someone saying that, even if it is in
cipher, now does it?

Let me make two points here, and we will clear this up very quickly.  First
of all, my reading is "Pismyr", not Strong's reading of "Pismon".  HIs
"cribbing" efforts were very close by my account, and this is why I know of
what I speak.  Secondly, the message I sent to Frogguy - yes, the one we
are discussing here on the VSG, was meant to be private.  My settings are
to CC: anbody the sender CC:'s, and apparently Frogguy sent his message to
the list.  I have corrected that feature, because I would rather fail to
post to such a small list than be misunderstood in the future.


 Rayman    -   One of the letters from a friend of Voynich pointed out to
Dr.
 Strong that his interpretation didn't seem like Nothumbrian Dialect or any
other Dialect he/she knew.    Dr. Strong replies that Dr. John Dee knew
all sorts of Dialects plus Welsh, Gaelic and various Foreign Languages.
 Dr. Strong implies that he was coming to the view that Dee wrote the
VMs and not Anthony Askham.    Are you maintaining that you know
which Dialect is represented by Dr. Strong or are you giving your own
interpretation as in the sample above ?

Strong did indeed press the Dee issue, and seemed convinced that Dee had a
hand in it.  I do not see the implication you see however.  It was in my
mind Strong's contention that since Dee used the same cipher, he must have
at least given it to the author.  I do not see this as a valid point.  If
we are to be critical, let's take a look at Strong's translations of his
own deciphered work.  Here we find that Strong missed the true meaning of
several of the words.  It is apparent he was not a linguist, and not being
a linguist, how could he have created a deciphered text that I read with
little trouble?

My previous statements represent my view of the Voynich language and
dialect.  There is none.  It is a "childish" mix-match of all the languages
available to the author.  Nothing more than what linguists invent as a game
with one another while in school.  That in itself should be valuable
information - the linguist was in school, and if it was Anthony, the time
period is set and the languages are known.

I read this note as "Change to four".  This refers to a change in the
vertical step sequence, and not the fixed horizontal sequence of
1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-4-7-4.
                                 >>>>>>>>>>>


 Which vertical step sequence ?     I can see no signs of decimated
Voynich symbols in the rows or columns of the recoveries before or
after the conversion to incomplete Latin  square form on  6 April 1945
 I believe the latter was a change he made after getting useful comments
from his visit to Professor Kent, but he did'nt change his plain text.  Did
you notice the change to higher key ( row ) numbers on worksheets W7
and W8.  These are correct for 6 April but only from line 2 of W7  !!
 I have yet to check where all the lowish key ( row ) values come from
on  W6 and perhaps the top of W7

I seem to remember that his visit was for demonstrative purposes only, and
nothing more.  You can make more of that if you wish, but I choose to
believe him.  We have already reached a mutual agreement that the 4/6/45
retry was a mistake on his part, but have you actually determined his
purpose in writing this page, even though it was wrong?  I have,  and if I
am right that he worked on future pages, he would have indeed corrected
this mistake very soon afterwards.

   You are going to have to give your specific knowledge      It is going
back to Newbold if we have to interpret small variations in pen strokes
especially when we know there are at least two hands at work and
probably more.

This is where I wish I knew the VSG notation for the characters, no matter
how incomplete its representation of the functions.  There are "gallows"
characters that look like a 4 and a 1 tied together, then there only a
certain amount of variations of this character.  There are the characters I
mentioned, and only a certain amount of variations of this character.  Once
you work out the characters and their meaning, you have basically mastered
the subject.  Vague it is, but this is what I offer until you have all
reviewed the work.  My own work is separate from Strong, and it will not be
produced until he has had his hearing.  I am very confident that one of you
will pick up on his work to the point that I will be left "holding a
climbing throttle".

Reversed notation - I threw this subject in as a footnote, so that I
remembered to say that one should not forget that any cipher system that
works on a mathematical system can be reversed at any time.  Hope it helps.

  On a different note I am about to try to reconstruct Dr. Strong's
worksheet
using the interln.txt file version of f93r.  I think he worked on this
first - in
Jan and Feb 1945 after getting the reprint from Hugh O'Neill which may
well have included a print or photostat of f93r

I concur.  Although his "crib" worked for the labels on 78 recto, his
primary work was on 93 recto, and this was the first work he did.  (You
will find some exceptions in the alphabets, and I do know where they came
from.)  


My apologies to the list that this discussion has spilled over in such a
way.  You will have your opportunity soon enough.


Regards,   Rayman





From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 29 02:02:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:58:23 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Re Re: VMS. Strong. 003.GIF
To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Spend a few days away from your e-mail and look what happens - 

This word should be read "PISMON" - its meaning is akin to 'pissemyre'. 
"Reall girl, aut the pismon of wit, seek to edit not idle folkloure fites
me" (or something like that - if you wish I will refer to the texts from
now on and not my sloppy memory.)


My translation is this - "Reall girl" (A woman of fertile age, a rightful
woman) "aut the pismon of wit" (with the brains of a pissmire/common sense
of a piss ant) "seek to edit not idle folkloure" (who accepts the idle
wive's tales of others without question) "fites me".  (makes me angry).  It
isn't too difficult to imagine someone saying that, even if it is in
cipher, now does it?

Let me make two points here, and we will clear this up very quickly.  First
of all, my reading is "Pismyr", not Strong's reading of "Pismon".  His
"cribbing" efforts were very close by my account, and this is why I know of
what I speak.  Secondly, the message I sent to Frogguy - yes, the one we
are discussing here on the VSG, was meant to be private.  My settings are
to CC: anbody the sender CC:'s, and apparently Frogguy sent his message to
the list.  I have corrected that feature, because I would rather fail to
post to such a small list than be misunderstood in the future.


 Rayman    -   One of the letters from a friend of Voynich pointed out to
Dr.
 Strong that his interpretation didn't seem like Nothumbrian Dialect or any
other Dialect he/she knew.    Dr. Strong replies that Dr. John Dee knew
all sorts of Dialects plus Welsh, Gaelic and various Foreign Languages.
 Dr. Strong implies that he was coming to the view that Dee wrote the
VMs and not Anthony Askham.    Are you maintaining that you know
which Dialect is represented by Dr. Strong or are you giving your own
interpretation as in the sample above ?

Strong did indeed press the Dee issue, and seemed convinced that Dee had a
hand in it.  I do not see the implication you see however.  It was in my
mind Strong's contention that since Dee used the same cipher, he must have
at least given it to the author.  I do not see this as a valid point for
Dee authorship.

If
we are to be critical, let's take a look at Strong's translations of his
own deciphered work.  Here we find that Strong missed the true meaning of
several of the words he himself deciphered.  It is apparent he was not a
linguist, and not being
a linguist, how could he have created a deciphered text that I read with
little trouble?

My statements from previous messages represent my view of the Voynich
language and
dialect.  There is none.  It is a "childish" mix-match of all the languages
available to the author.  Nothing more than what linguists invent as a game
with one another while in school.  That in itself should be valuable
information - the linguist was in school, and if it was Anthony, the time
period is set and the languages are known.

I read this note as "Change to four".  This refers to a change in the
vertical step sequence, and not the fixed horizontal sequence of
1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-4-7-4.
                                 >>>>>>>>>>>


 Which vertical step sequence ?     I can see no signs of decimated
Voynich symbols in the rows or columns of the recoveries before or
after the conversion to incomplete Latin  square form on  6 April 1945
 I believe the latter was a change he made after getting useful comments
from his visit to Professor Kent, but he did'nt change his plain text.  Did
you notice the change to higher key ( row ) numbers on worksheets W7
and W8.  These are correct for 6 April but only from line 2 of W7  !!
 I have yet to check where all the lowish key ( row ) values come from
on  W6 and perhaps the top of W7

I seem to remember that his visit to Kent was for demonstrative purposes
only, and
nothing more.  You can make more of that if you wish, but I choose to
believe him.  We have already reached a mutual agreement that the 4/6/45
"retry" was a mistake on his part, but have you actually determined his
purpose in writing this page, even though it was wrong?  I have,  and if I
am correct in assuming that he worked on future pages, he would have indeed
corrected
this mistake very soon afterwards.

   You are going to have to give your specific knowledge      It is going
back to Newbold if we have to interpret small variations in pen strokes
especially when we know there are at least two hands at work and
probably more.

This is where I wish I knew the VSG notation for the characters, no matter
how incomplete its representation of the functions.  There are "gallows"
characters that look like a 4 and a 1 tied together, then there only a
certain amount of variations of this character.  There are the characters I
mentioned, and only a certain amount of variations of this character.  Once
you work out the characters and their meaning, you have basically mastered
the subject.  Vague it is, but this is what I offer until you have all
reviewed the work.  My own work is separate from Strong, and it will not be
produced until he has had his hearing.  I am very confident that one of you
will pick up on his work to the point that I will be left "holding a
climbing throttle".

Reversed notation - I threw this subject in as a footnote, so that I
remembered to say that one should not forget that any cipher system that
works on a mathematical system can be reversed at any time.  Hope it helps.

  On a different note I am about to try to reconstruct Dr. Strong's
worksheet
using the interln.txt file version of f93r.  I think he worked on this
first - in
Jan and Feb 1945 after getting the reprint from Hugh O'Neill which may
well have included a print or photostat of f93r

I concur.  Although his "crib" worked for the labels on 78 recto, his
primary work was on 93 recto, and this was the first work he did.  (You
will find some exceptions in the alphabets, and I do know where they came
from.)  


My apologies to the list that this discussion has spilled over in such a
way.  I will do my best to keep this conversation private until the work we
are discussing is available to everyone.

Regards,   Rayman





From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Mar 29 08:08:02 1997
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     From Denis V Mardle       29 March 1997

  Dennis     your         Fri, 28 Mar 97 03:37:14 GMT  

    And for you Dan plus VMs list

   It was a report of some recent research some time in The Times in the UK
during the last 10 days.  Unfortunately I didn't cut it out and the paper then
went on to a friend who may or may not still have it.  I hope you can find it
in your local reference Library.

  Denis 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar 30 02:50:02 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Mar 30 22:56:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:50:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
In-Reply-To: <C1256466.002A819E.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> let's take a closer look at Dennis' "nearly" (I picked
> the first of the three books of Kings and Voynichese A
> without prejudice):
> 
> > Text        char   char    h0      h1      h2     h1 - h2   h2
> > ----------  ----   -----   -----   -----   -----  ------   ----
> > 1kingsa.cla   16   21658   4.000   3.673   2.410   1.263   34.4
> > voyas.raw     25    8108   4.644   3.402   2.222   1.180   34.7
> 
> Look at the drop from h0 to h1. Note that for the book
> of Kings h1 is still higher than for Voynichese, yet the
> character set is *much* more restricted.
> I'm afraid that some more work may be needed, before the
> inverse process may be tackled properly. 

	That was with Cat Latin A.  Here are the results with Cat Latin B. 


               #     Chars 
File           of     in                                  % rel
Name         chars   File      h0     h1     h2   h1-h2     h2
-----------  -----  ------   -----  -----  -----  ------  ------

voyas.raw      25     8108   4.644  3.402  2.222  1.180   34.7
voyb.raw       26    10764   4.700  3.416  2.225  1.191   34.9

1kingsa.lat    24    14828   4.585  3.989  3.273  0.715   17.9
1kingsb.lat    24    15537   4.585  4.012  3.281  0.731   18.2
1kingsc.lat    23    14374   4.524  3.977  3.253  0.724   18.2
1kingsa.clb    24    27653   4.585  3.355  2.176  1.179   35.1
1kingsb.clb    24    29133   4.585  3.341  2.170  1.171   35.0
1kingsc.clb    23    26797   4.524  3.345  2.167  1.178   35.2


	As you can see, the .clb results compare quite well with .raw
(Currier Voynich Herbal), with just two fewer characters.  

	Here are the Cat Latin A & B systems:

Plain
Text  CLA    CLB
----  ----   ----
a     a      a
b     pqx    bqaa
c     c      c
d     tqx    dqaa
e     e      e
f     pqh    fqaa
g     cqx    gqaa
h     h      h
i     i      i
j     i      jqaa
k     c      k
m     pqm    mqaa
n     tqm    nqaa
o     o      o
p     p      pqaa
qu    qu     qu
r     r      rqaa
s     tqh    sqaa
t     t      t
u     u      u
v     u      v
w     u      w
x     cs     x
y     i      y
z     tqhx   zqaa

	Cat Latin A attempted to reduce Latin to as few characters as
possible by eliminating some distinctions and spelling out some phonemes
with multiple characters.  Cat Latin B increases entropy by adding qaa
after many consonants.  Since q only occurs as qu or qaa, there is no
ambiguity.  In cryptological terms, one would call qaa a null.  In
linguistic terms, one would call qaa silent letters.  

	Below is the BITRANS script for Cat Latin B.

Dennis
----------------------------------------------------
#=~
<(comment)> <(comment)>
{(comment)} {(comment)}
#(comment) #(comment)
a  a
b  bqaa
c  c
d  dqaa
e  e
f  fqaa
g  gqaa
h  h
i  i
j  jqaa
k  k
m  mqaa
n  nqaa
o  o
p  pqaa
qu qu
r  rqaa
s  sqaa
t  t
u  u
v  v
w  w
x  x
y  y
z  zqaa



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 31 15:20:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 15:08:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
cc: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
In-Reply-To: <199703311957.OAA21454@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
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On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Karl Kluge wrote:
 
> > 	Cat Latin A attempted to reduce Latin to as few characters as
> > possible by eliminating some distinctions and spelling out some phonemes
> > with multiple characters.  Cat Latin B increases entropy by adding qaa
> > after many consonants.  Since q only occurs as qu or qaa, there is no
> > ambiguity.  In cryptological terms, one would call qaa a null.  In
> > linguistic terms, one would call qaa silent letters.  
> 
> Interesting. There is a comment in D'Imperio that Manly? indicated to Ms.
> Nills that he thought it was a fairly simple cipher concealed by the
> extensive use of nulls, and this type of system would certainly seem to
> qualify.

	Yes!  There could have been several different null groups, and A
and B could have had different preferences.  Or - it could have been the
sort of thing I've been talking about.  The sound written in English as
sh, can also be written sch, sz, or ch.  In a lot of languages using the
Latin alphabet, -h serves to modify a preceding consonant or vowel.  They
could have had a few two- or three-letter groups that served that purpose.  

	In any case, I've shown a simple transformation that can produce
Voynich-type entropies from a plaintext.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 01:08:05 1997
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Hi!  We just got this article on the Voynich Manuscript.  We'd 
like to hear what you think about it.  
    
    A higher source told me that we published an article on the 
Voynich Manuscript a long time ago, but I can't find it.  This thing 
sounds a little too, well, scholarly for us.
    
Yours truly, 
Heinz Annielmann
Associate Editor
National Enquirer

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Out of Africa
by Douglas Frederick


    Recent research has established that the Voynich Manuscript is 
written in the Edo language of western Africa.  

    The old African state of Benin (now Benin City in Nigeria, not to 
be confused with the 20th-century state named Benin), where the Edo 
language is spoken, had had contact with the Portuguese beginning 
about 1485.  Sometime shortly after 1504, Esigie, the oba (king) of 
Benin, sent an ambassador named Ohen-okun to Lisbon.  The Portuguese 
in turn sent missionaries to Benin.   

    In Lisbon Ohen-okun encountered several representatives of the 
Hanseatic League in the diplomatic community.   One of these, Eberhard 
Schertz, took a keen interest in this new, totally exotic culture.  He 
managed to learn some Edo from Ohen-okun.  As Schertz was an amateur 
linguist, he started work on a written script for the Edo language.  

    Sometime around 1520, one of the missionaries, a Catholic priest 
named Father Teodoro Pedrosoao, returned to Lisbon.  Pedrosoao by then 
could speak Edo fairly well.  Pedrosoao was also an amateur artist who 
had made drawings of African flora.  He was highly imaginative; 
consequently his drawings did not accurately reflect African flora.   
He also made drawings of the new Edo system of astrology, Iwe-uki, 
after the typical European manner of the time.  

    In what we have called the biological drawings of the Voynich 
Manuscript, Pedrosoao drew the West African goddess of fresh water, 
Oxun, in multiple guises.  Oxun appears today in some of the Afro-
Christian syncretic religions of the New World.  Since Pedrosoao had 
grown up near a Portuguese spa, he represented Oxun in European-style 
baths and as a Caucasian.  He had never born celibacy well, hence his 
fascination with this theme.   
    
    In Lisbon Pedersoao met Eberhard Schertz.  (It is not clear 
whether Ohen-okun was still in Lisbon.)  Schertz took a keen interest 
in Pedersoao's drawings.  He was also interested in setting down a 
written account of Benin, its natural surroundings, and its culture.  
Pedrosoao's drawings were a natural starting point.  As Schertz was an 
amateur linguist, he wished to add examples of their language and 
lore.  With discussions with Pedrosoao, he was able to more or less 
finish his script for Edo.   

    Schertz' script reflected the German orthography of the early 1500's 
noted by Panofsky in what we have so far called the Voynich 
Manuscript.  He used multiple letters to represent vowels and 
consonants, some of which were unfamiliar to him, as well as the tone 
phonemes of Edo.  His system was confusing, as it involved many 
alternate spellings for Edo words.   
    
    With the aid of Pedrosoao, Schertz taught his system, along with 
some Edo, to two scribes whose names have unfortunately not survived.  
Therefore, we shall call them A and B.   
        
    At that point, Schertz unfortunately fell ill and died.  The task 
of setting down Edo written lore thus lay with A and B.  Communication 
between Pedrosoao, A, and B was difficult.  However, the job was done, 
although A and B used Schertz' system in different fashions.   They 
simply set down Pedrosoao's dictation over his drawings.  Pedrosoao's 
account was the Edo Sacred Oracle, a traditional divination system, 
which did not bear any particular relation to the drawings.    

    Pedrosoao never really understood Schertz' script.  Pedrosoao 
scribbled on what is now f116v, the last page of what we call the 
Voynich Manuscript.  He wrote "oladabas" for Currier OPAR8AR on f67r1, 
at 11 o'clock in the outermost text ring.   
    
    Pedrosoao left the resulting manuscript with the Hanseatic trade 
mission.   After several decades, another Hanseatic trader took the 
manuscript to England, where he sold it to Dr. John Dee, which book he 
paginated and bestowed much time upon, but I could not hear that he 
could make it out.  He eventually sold it to Rudolph II for 600 ducats 
during his stay at Rudolph's court.   
    
    With the publication of some of the Yoruba Sacred Ifa Oracle in 
English, we have works related to the Edo Sacred Oracle.  The Edo 
language and culture of Benin are closely related to the Yoruba. 
Therefore, the remaining decipherment should be fairly easy!   


*References* 

    Bastide, Roger; translated by Helen Sebba; *The African Religions 
of Brazil: Toward a Sociology of the Interpenetration of 
Civilizations.*  (John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1978; 
original version c1960.)  ISBN 0-8018-2056-1.   

    Egharevba, Jacob; *A Short History of Benin. 4th Edition.*  
(Ibadan University Press, Ibadan, Nigeria, 1968.)  pp. 26-9.   

    Epega, Afolabi A.; and Neimark, Philip John, translators and 
commentators;  *The Sacred Ifa Oracle.*  (HarperSanFrancisco, 1160 
Battery St., San Francisco CA 94111, 1995.) 549 pp.  $18.  Reviewed by 
Nisi Shawl in *Gnosis*, no. 38, Winter 1996, pp. 74-5. 

    Evans, Robert John Weston; *Rudolph II and His World: A Study in 
Intellectual History, 1576-1612.*  (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1973.)  

    Katzner, Kenneth; *Languages of the World.*  (Routledge & Kegan 
Paul, London, c1986.)  ISBN 0-7102-0861-8.  p. 6,  pp. 350-1  
  
    Murphy, E. Jefferson; *History of African Civilization.*  (Dell 
Publishing Co., New York, c1972.)  ISBN 0-440-53735-5.  pp. 172-177,  
pp. 254-295.   

    Panofsky, Erwin; "Answers to Questions for Prof. E. Panofsky," 
personal communication to William F. Friedman.  March 19, 1954.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 01:47:01 1997
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
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	Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:58:47 -0600)
Subject: Re: Voynich Manuscript Article
Status: OR


Dear Heinz,

I am sorry to have to disagree with your intriguing hypothesis, but I'm 
afraid *I* have recently come up with the solution to the connundrum posed
by the Voynich Mss.

As you are no doubt aware, there have been a number of proposed decipherments.
The first, by Newbold, involved reading small strokes making up the characters
as Greek shorthand symbols -- one can almost hear Roger Bacon saying, "Miss
Hathaway, take a herbal" -- then performing a table look up operation in the
back of Newbold's posthumous book (proving both survival after death *and*
that Roger Bacon, in addition to inventing the microscope and telescope, had
also invented a time machine), followed by a bit of anagramming. This solution
was later dismissed as a consequence of objections raised by Manly, Friedman,
et al, but still has it's defenders, who ask, "If this solution isn't correct,
then how could Newbold have extracted all that coherent text?"

The second decipherment (chronologically in this list, although we are only
now able to examine his work in detail) was Strong's. He believed that the
text was encrypted with a fairly straight forward polyalphabetic cipher, and
that it contained an early version of the Kinsey report, or perhaps Anthony
Ascham's early effort at a Renaissance "Our Crawknots, Our Selves". While some
doubts are being expressed as to the consistency of the alphabets used and the
anachronistic words such as "folklore" (suggesting, perhaps, that Ascham also
had a time machine), again defenders ask "If this solution isn't correct, then
how could Strong have extracted so much coherent text?"

Finally, there was the work of Brumbaugh, who managed to find the names of
Greek philosophers in the Zodiac folio labels, and a great salsa recipe
involving pepper on folio 101 verso. He believed that the characters in the
Mss. were variant forms of Arabic numberals, and that a code much like
using a telephone dial to map letters to digits had been used. While this
did an iffy job at extracting plant and proper names from labels, it failed
miserably at the main body of the text. Still, one has to ask, "If this
solution is wrong, how could he have gotten coherent text for those labels?"

I believe the most parsimonious solution to this vexing riddle is to cut the
Gordian Knot by saying that all three are correct. Well, Strong is wrong about
the author and dating, but let that pass. Suppose Roger Bacon really did
encipher the Mss, as Newbold proposed. But he knows that people will try to
wrest his secret from the book, so he employs two levels of misdirection.  He
uses a "telephone dial" code of the sort attested to later in Agrippa (see
_Magic, It's Rites and History_) to encipher bogus plant and star labels.  He
knows that once someone cracks that code they will notice that the running
text is nonsense. He therefore encodes lurid gynocological stuff as a cover
text for the shorthand, precociously using a polyalphabetic cipher. 

Never mind that the state of the art in encipherment in English monastaries
two centuries later (c. 1450) was using the next letter in the alphabet to
conceal the word first known use of the word "f*ck" in the poem "Fleas, Flies,
and Friars" (the monks of a certain monestary won't go to Heaven because they
"gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk" = "fvccant vvivys of Geni" -- remember, u and v were
a single letter at the time, and w is a double u, so "vvivys" is "wives").
Bacon, after all, according to Newbold had microscopes and telescopes, so
coming up with a polyalphabetic cipher would be child's play. As to the
suppose New World plants, perhaps Saint Brendan had brought back drawings.

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 10:23:03 1997
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Subject: Re: Voynich Manuscript Article
To: anniel@micro-net.com (National Enquirer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:41:59 +0200 (MEST)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <3340A417.286C@micro-net.com> from "National Enquirer" at Mar 31, 97 11:58:47 pm
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>     In Lisbon Ohen-okun encountered several representatives of the 
> Hanseatic League in the diplomatic community.   One of these, Eberhard 
> Schertz, took a keen interest in this new, totally exotic culture.  He 
> managed to learn some Edo from Ohen-okun.  As Schertz was an amateur 
> linguist, he started work on a written script for the Edo language.  

Be aware that "Scherz" in German means "joke".
-- 
Rhamm Groohm! Auuurgh! Ogouuun. Ooorgh! Ooorgh! alex@zool.unizh.ch.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 10:26:12 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
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Status: OR

Hi,
This is perhaps a bit disconnected to the previous thread.
I wonder if the low h2 is due to using the same script for numbers? If
the numbers are written using the Roman format, that would introduce a
lot of redundancy: i, ii, iii, iv, iiv, vi, vii, viii, ix, x, etc.
Here we can write from 1 to 10 using just 3 characters with the pairs
ii and vi very common. This must lower the entropy of the text.

Unfortunately while there are (in eva): "ain", "daiin", 
"dain", "daiiin", etc in which I used the i=I and n=V for Roman 
numerals, there are no words with: "ni", "nii" or "niii" indicating
the rest of the numbers.

This brings another idea of whether other sequences which are very
common and appear usually in groups could have anything to do with
numbers. I would say that "chol" and "shol" are good candidates:
chol.shol.daiin, etc. for "one, five, eight" or something similar.
There are a few (or not so few) cases of repeated: chol.chol etc. Has
anybody done any word correlation analysis looking for patterns of
this type?

If numerals were to be written in arabic instead, then I 
suppose that the correlations of the characters in the sequence 
coding for a number could be anything, something that does not 
happens in words (for example some combinations of letters never
occur). I presume that not knowing in advance which are words and
which are numbers makes this type of analysis very difficult or
impossible, but is there any way to "suspect" words to be numbers?

I have a candidate in f85v2 (in the lower third of the page, in a
"road" connecting two large circles (in eva):

 ddsschx

to me, the two consecutive repetitions (d and s), plus the fact that I
have observed a number of isolated "s" in the script is very
suspicious... On top of that this is one of the few words that has the
picnic table (x). I know that there are lots of words in English with
doubles like "committee", etc. but what about in other languages? In
Spanish only a few letters are repeated: l, c, e and r for instance.
Anybody knows what is the case in Latin and Greek?

regards,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 11:32:05 1997
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    From   D.V.M.            1 April    !997

  Sadly you have missed your dead line of noon in the UK
 As for Father Petersen it is RIP.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Mar 31 21:32:02 1997
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Subject: Nahuatl, Basque and more!
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At this Web site:

http://members.aol.com/libphil/libdload.html

Mostly vocabulary tutorials, and the interface
is primitive, but they're all free!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 14:44:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:36:20 +0000
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Status: OR

On  1 Apr 97 at 16:29, Denis Mardle wrote:
>                There is a problem with Tiltman's text from f105v to f113r     
> Whereas C and F are giving M ,  T is giving IIL nearly all the time,
> similarly N and IL plus various differences such as III vice M and
> IIIL vice M     Even odder is the pair  AIIL and AIN ( should be AM )
>          I'll leave you to sort it out, but this clearly has something to
> do with the excess of L's I noted on   Tue, 11 Mar 97 17:36:50 GMT  
> to Jacques, copies to Rene and Gabriel

Hi Denis,
Yes we know of that. These are the original versions, so we did not
want to change the original readings that the transcribers wrote.
Tiltman had a different theory on the FSG letters N and M. However we
are changing all this in the new file (that we are working on with
Rene). Please, be patient, when we finish the whole thing it will be
posted to in the net and we will announce in the list. We are about
half way through...

Best wishes,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 01:11:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 12:46:03 -0800
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>, j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
Subject: Re: Re Re: MONKEY Business with Repetitive Texts
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970327162045.22309A-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
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Dennis wrote:

I don't know! All the messages I have received from the VMS list
to-day are empty (except Jim Gillogly's on how to subscribe and
unsubscribe). I suspect our mail reader is playing up badly:
the same thing is happening with other lists I subscribe to,
without rhyme nor reason.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 16:56:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: firthr@db.erau.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: The VM deciphered!
Status: OR

Folks

Well, Strong was on the right track after all - he just
didn't take his ideas far enough.  After many hours of
patient work, I now feel my decipherment of the VMs is
sufficiently sound to be published.  It gives clear,
sensible plaintext for every folio I've tried it on.

The system is quite simple: all the visible letters are
nulls and the cypher text is encoded only by the spaces.
These encode a 24-letter alphabet:

        A B C D E F G H
        I J K L M N O P
        Q R S T U V X Z

Each space therefore has 24 alternative decodings, which
gives rise to some ambiguity in the decode, but, as Strong
so powerfully argues, one familiar with the subject matter
can usually make sensible guesses.

The underlying text is late-mediaeval english, in a southern
dialect, with a lot of norman-french borrowings.

For example, The text in the first Aries zodiacal folder reads

        E-L-O-O-F- -E-L-L-I-R-P-A

which seems to be an allusion to one of the Major Arcana of
the Italian Tarot deck, so suggesting an astrological or
divinational purpose for these folios, as we have suspected.

TTFN
Robert



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  1 18:23:02 1997
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Subject: VMS Deciphered
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Merriment and mirth
To Mr. Firth

Happy April Fool's.
sulla

sulla@globaldialog.com

rura cano rurisque deos.          --Tibullus


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr  2 05:38:10 1997
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To R. Firth:                                    Germany, some time after
1997/04/01 11:59:59

Congratulations with your decryption method of the VMs. A similar
assumption
helped me solve the mystery of the Faistos disk (see E-mail from
Oct. 8, 1996). I concur that your solution is even more elegant,
as it does not require the use of alternate notations (space) vs. (space)*
This pair of successes makes me confident that the Rongo-rongo tablets
will reveal their secrets soon.

To allow others to study the VMs in this light, I have replaced my EVMT
transcription with a new file, approx. 150kbytes long, by removing the
nulls. I shall be able to E-mail it to those interested.

Kind regards,
         Rene Zandbergen


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr  2 17:47:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:36:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Latest Insights 
In-Reply-To: <C125646D.002E9071.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> BTW: your latest entropies are interesting indeed. It shows that it takes
> some
> serious meddling to get the entropy down. All the repetitive patterns in
> the VMs
> must be considered 'suspect'. Isn't it odd that these are what
> distinguishes A from
> B? No, in fact it isn't. It's logical. But dropping all -OE, -C89, 4O- (or,
> better,
> merging them with the adjacent characters) might both increase the entropy,
> which I think is necessary, and reduce the differences between A and B,
> which may not be necessary.

	Yes, you have to insert a lot of extraneous material to get the
entropies down.  However, Cat Latin B is a very simple system.  You just
add -qaa after b,d,f,g,j,m,n,p,r,s, & z.  

	Suppose that B used Cat Latin B.  Suppose furthermore that A used
Cat Latin C.  In Cat Latin C one substitutes -qii instead of -qaa.  The
entropies would probably be similar.  The single-letter distributions of
Cat Latin B & C would be different, although in this simple case the
source of the differences would be obvious. 

	As we've already discussed, comparing the A and B languages, under
the assumption that a common system lays beneath, will certainly teach us
more.  

	As we've also discussed, there are probably constraints on which
letters may touch that may have nothing to do with the underlying
language's phonetics.  

On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> Dennis wrote:
>
> >         We've already done statistical tests that show that the word
> > breaks are not random.  Certain letters and letter combinations
congregate
> > at word boundaries.
>
> No, no, no! We've been through that before. They congregate near spaces,
> ends of lines, and ends of paragraphs (or starts). Those are not
> necessarily
> word boundaries. Thus, for instance, if I write "head" in Arabic, I have
> to
> write it: r a s. But if I write "river" I write it: nhr (no spaces).
> This
> is merely because some letters can connect to the left, some to the
> right,
> some left and right, and some not a all. Note that in Voynichese most
> letters that occur at "word" breaks feature a flourish. Is the flourish
> a variant of the letter when it occurs word-finally, or is it what
> prevents the next letter to connect to it? We don't know.

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr  3 10:02:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:50:01 +0200
Subject: Arabic and Voynichese (was Re: Words (was...))
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The question of:

>> ..... 6/cg/g which (almost)
>> exclusively occurs line-final. And I'm not too sure about
>> paragraph-final. As I said before, it almost seems to play
>> the role of our word-breaking hyphen (underscore in Italian).

prompted Frogguy's:

> I never thought of that. To me, 6/cg/g was a variant of ...
> probably 8, before a pause.

Not at all unlikely. Only, the 6/cg/g is not infrequently
preceded immediately by an 8. And 8 does not seem to
favour the word-final position too much either, although
it can be found there from time to time (e.g. in -CO8
endings).

>> > Indeed, the distribution of letters is not the same
>> > line-initially and line-finally as it is before and
>> > after spaces

>> A feature Arabic does not seem to have. There's always a snag
>> to every fine theory.

> Uh? I don't know... (snip) .....So, yes, it seems to me that
> the distribution of letters would be about the same at line breaks
> and at word breaks.

Well, let's be careful here. As you say:

> We can almost be sure that the ends of paragraphs are also
> the ends of sentences in the VMS. If Voynichese sentences,
> like Japanese, Burmese, Hindi etc., end with a verb always
> or almost always, and if verbs are characterized by distinctive
> endings, then the endings of paragraphs will not show the
> same distribution as the endings
> of words .... Likewise, if a Voynich sentence starts with a
> noun, and nouns are usually preceded by an article, then
> again, we will observe a very different letter distribution
> at the beginning of paragraphs and at the beginning of words.

But this does not say anything about the strange 'line'
statistics. In fact, if you have a number of lines filling
right up to the right margin and then one shorter one,
followed by some vertical space before the next line starts,
you may assume you have a paragraph with possibly one, possibly
more sentences. You may not assume that if the paragraph has
more than one sentence, the sentences will end at the ends
of the lines. Thus the deviating line start and end statistics
are strange indeed (to me at least). I think it does
hint towards some kind of a cipher, or at least a
line-by-line construction of the Voynich writing.

> If it is a cipher, what kind of a cipher could possibly
> produce such patterns?

Lots of ideas that were already offered in the past.
The first char of each line could give a key. Note that
first characters of lines are from a smaller 'pool'.
Line ends could be wrapped in the middle of words, so
line ends do not always have to be word ends.
Or maybe the statistical differences are fully explained
by the presence of the 6/cg/g which is rarely found
anywhere else...
Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr  5 09:05:01 1997
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:58:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Gallows and Glaegolithic
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    I just got through reading Bennett for the first time.  He notes 
that the gallows letters are "similar to characters found in early 
Bulgarian Glagolitsa".  
    
    This might be fortuitous.  However, it might be a clue to the 
provenience of the Voynich script.  In addition to Bulgaria, the 
Glaegolithic script was used for some period of time in Bosnia.  
Bosnia neighbors Croatia and Slovenia, where the Latin script was 
always used, due to these countries' being Catholic.  Bosnia is also 
not too far from northern Italy, which we've chiefly considered for 
the VMs.  

    From Microsoft Encarta:    

    "Cyrillic Alphabet, alphabet developed in the 9th century for the 
use of Eastern Orthodox Slavs. It was based on Greek characters, and 
with modifications it constitutes the present Russian, Ukrainian, 
White Russian, Serbian, and Bulgarian alphabets. Although it was 
traditionally ascribed to St. Cyril, scholars now believe that the 
Cyrillic alphabet was devised by one of Cyril's followers. It is 
related to the Glagolitic alphabet (also attributed to St. Cyril) used 
by Roman Catholic Slavs until the 17th century and surviving today 
only in the Slavonic liturgy of some Roman Catholic communities in the 
Balkan Peninsula. " 

    "Cyril - ... In 862-863, preparatory to undertaking a mission to 
Greater Moravia (now Slovakia and the eastern region of the Czech 
Republic) in answer to a request from the Moravian ruler to Emperor 
Michael, Cyril created a Slavonic alphabet. It was the alphabet, of 
very restricted present-day use, known now as Glagolitic, and not, as 
was formerly supposed, the Cyrillic alphabet. " 

    Thus whoever devised the Voynich script might well have contact 
with the Glaegolithic alphabet.  
    
    We've talked about their contact with the Arabic script.  However, 
I believe that Arabic was known to medieval scholars all over Europe, 
so that doesn't help us much.  
    
    What does everyone else know and think about this?  
    
Dennis 




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr  5 08:02:06 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
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   From  Denis V Mardle        5 April 1997

 On   Thu, 03 Apr 97 14:50:01 GMT     Rene writes
    
<<<
But this does not say anything about the strange 'line'
statistics. In fact, if you have a number of lines filling
right up to the right margin and then one shorter one,
followed by some vertical space before the next line starts,
you may assume you have a paragraph with possibly one, possibly
more sentences. You may not assume that if the paragraph has
more than one sentence, the sentences will end at the ends
of the lines. Thus the deviating line start and end statistics
are strange indeed (to me at least). I think it does
hint towards some kind of a cipher, or at least a
line-by-line construction of the Voynich writing.

> If it is a cipher, what kind of a cipher could possibly
> produce such patterns?

Lots of ideas that were already offered in the past.
The first char of each line could give a key. Note that
first characters of lines are from a smaller 'pool'.
Line ends could be wrapped in the middle of words, so
line ends do not always have to be word ends.
Or maybe the statistical differences are fully explained
by the presence of the 6/cg/g which is rarely found
anywhere else...
Cheers, Rene

                            >>>

I agree with most of the above, but I do have one idea that
is worth following up.   It was found recently in a couple of
my 1971 worksheets.      Medieval Roman numerals have
more than the standard I, J ( final I ), V, X, L, C, D and  M
Many of the extra ones have a bar over them to show
multiplication by a thousand and would not need the bar
if position is taken into account.     The full list is as follows :-

 C      100
 D      500
 F        40       bar F     40000
 G     400       bar G   400000
 H     200       bar H   200000
 I           1
 J final   1
 K      250
 L        50       bar L      50000
 M   1000       bar M 1000000
 N        90      bar N     90000
 O        11      bar O     11000
 P      400      bar P    400000  but see G and bar G
 Q      500      bar Q    500000 but see D
 R        80      bar R      80000
 S  7 or 70     bar S       70000
 T       160     bar T     160000
 V           5     bar V         5000
 X          10    bar X        10000   but also on its side using shape instead of M
 Y         150   bar Y      150000

     Now I believe these Roman numerals are used in some simple
way to convert a running text not necessarily in word lengths to
Arabic numerals via a straight or hatted alphabet into Roman ones.
There are snags in the peculiar structure required but an example
from 1971 (!) may make a simple version clear :-

Alphabet  A to Z as 3 to 28.   Words longer than 4 digits split

 P/L    I am now going to bed

Digits  11 315 161725 91711169 2217 476

Roman  XI  CCCXV  MDCXVII  XXV  VMVCSI  MCLXIX  MHXVII  GLXXVI

 To have the same symbol near the start and near the end is attractive
 The big snag is  the Voynich has only strings of I's and C's  Also how
do we handle the extra limited choice of symbol after A,AI, AII, AIII and
rarely AIIII.       C seems to behave more like X than C

 Good Luck     Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr  5 09:59:01 1997
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From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
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Subject: Re: Gallows and Glaegolithic
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Dear all,

Dennis' information about the Glaegolithic and Cyrillic scripts
coincides with a thought I recently had, which I would not have
mentioned otherwise, as it's rather too obvious.

One thing that bothers me quite a bit is the Voynich character
represented by Currier Z. This is the same as S, but with a
curl above it. In that sense it is unique in the alphabet.
Now also the Cyrillic alphabet has one and only one character
that is a copy of another one, but with a marker above it.
It is the 'J', which is a copy of 'I' but with a caret.
Is this also a parallel to be considered? I'm at a loss....

Dennis also says:

> We've talked about their contact with the Arabic script.
> However, I believe that Arabic was known to medieval
> scholars all over Europe, so that doesn't help us much.

Scholars yes, but I wonder if whoever wrote the VMs was
one. Then again, if his/their diagrams are original, then
despite their strange appearance he/they must have been
of some learning, intuition and/or intelligence.

I'm sure all this doesn't help much either.......

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr  5 14:50:01 1997
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Message-ID: <3346ABDF.22F5@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 14:45:35 -0500
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Dennis' information about the Glaegolithic and Cyrillic scripts
> coincides with a thought I recently had, which I would not have
> mentioned otherwise, as it's rather too obvious.
> 
> One thing that bothers me quite a bit is the Voynich character
> represented by Currier Z. This is the same as S, but with a
> curl above it. In that sense it is unique in the alphabet.
> Now also the Cyrillic alphabet has one and only one character
> that is a copy of another one, but with a marker above it.
> It is the 'J', which is a copy of 'I' but with a caret.
> Is this also a parallel to be considered? I'm at a loss....

	One of the things I've been meaning to get to was word ending
freqencies in Russian... Your earlier discussions on 6, cg, and g. The
russian alphabet has some peculiar letters that are restricted in their
use. The letter 'E oborotnyj' is almost entirely word initial - and to
my knowledge never word final. The letter 'i kratkij' is almost always
word final, although does have a few rare word initial uses. It is also
almost always preceded by 'ery', a character that is found word final -
or prefix final when not followed by 'i kratkij'. The letter 'ya'
although can be used word initially, -or root initially, has an
extremely high rate of use at word final. Anyways, I haven't gotten to
the task of looking closely at the actual statistics of word final
groupings in Russian, but think there is support for belief that the
script represents real language and not cypher. Although, I think it is
very difficult to use statistics to support language or cypher when we
have no idea whether each character represents one or more 'real'
characters.

			John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr  5 19:20:02 1997
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 19:12:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Gallows and Glaegolithic
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On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, John & Sue Grove wrote:

> The letter 'E oborotnyj' is almost entirely word initial - and to
> my knowledge never word final. The letter 'i kratkij' is almost always
> word final, although does have a few rare word initial uses. It is also
> almost always preceded by 'ery', a character that is found word final -
> or prefix final when not followed by 'i kratkij'. The letter 'ya'
> although can be used word initially, -or root initially, has an
> extremely high rate of use at word final. 

	I know that Russian is highly inflected - ie., it has extensive
noun declensions and verb conjugations.  That would obviously affect the
word endings.  How does that tie in with what you've said?  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Apr  6 11:56:01 1997
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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 11:53:51 -0400
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Dennis wrote:
> 
>> > The letter 'E oborotnyj' is almost entirely word initial - and to
> my knowledge never word final. The letter 'i kratkij' is almost always
> word final, although does have a few rare word initial uses. It is
> also almost always preceded by 'ery', a character that is found word 
(or for soft ending words by 'i')

> final - or prefix final when not followed by 'i kratkij'. The letter 
> 'ya' although can be used word initially, -or root initially, has an
>  extremely high rate of use at word final.
> 
>  I know that Russian is highly inflected - ie., it has extensive
> noun declensions and verb conjugations.  That would obviously affect 
> the word endings.  How does that tie in with what you've said?
> 
> Dennis

	Word endings in Russian, changing for cases and conjugations certainly
change the counts. However, this does have an odd effect on what letters
appear at the end of words, however doesn't change the 'general' rules
above - 'i kratkij' (represented by j) may be replaced as follows:

	Now/yj - Now/ogo Now/omu Now/ym Now/om 
		 or

	proletar/ij - proletar/iya proletar/iyu proletar/iya proletar/iem
proletar/ii

	As you can see, the use of 'ya' increases as word final when
declination takes place on feminine nouns (some neuter and masculine,
too).  Gerunds almost always end in 'Ya'. The 'i kratkij' if used is
still almost always word final. 'Ery' (represented by y) is either word
final, prefix final, or followed by 'i kratkij'.

	Voynich, of course doesn't act like Russian at all with duplicate
endings like "-yaya" "ii" "yuyu". Some characters, however may by nature
of the language may only be found word initial or final - with (like
almost any language) exceptions to grammar or spelling rules. Regardless
of case or tense, no Russian word to my knowledge, ends with the letter
'e oborotnyj'. (Although Acronyms, do!). I'm not sure of the overall
percentages for 'ya' endings when all grammar is taken into account, but
I'm sure it is quite high. Another interesting note in Russian
declination is the increase in vowel endings for words (almost syllabic)
-ogo/ego/omu/emu/yaya/ii/ee/yuyu -> but ofcourse the -m endings tend to
increase too - em/om/ym/im, and In plural an increase in 'x' (like the
'ch' in scottish loch) -ax/yax/yx/ix.

			John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Apr  6 14:23:02 1997
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Message-ID: <3347E974.3030@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 14:20:36 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Well, I've probably been running off spelling rules before thinking...
The short i (i kratkij) in Russian does occur amidst words, but always
follows a vowel when it does. The letter 'ya' does occur throughout
Russian words, and there are at least SIX words that end in 'e
oborotnyj'. Sorry, for the misinformation earlier...

	The point that I tried to make using Russian was that I feel the word
final discussions earlier could be explained by spelling rules within
the given language. The possibility that grammar and spelling rules
cause the similarities in numerous voynich words could suggest an
inflected language. The repetions within voynich, as pointed out to me
earlier, could just as easily be explained by declensions and
conjugations.
	The second point, and the one that I've been continually attempting to
resolve in my own mind, is that the character set seems to create a
false repetition with R, iR, iiR, iiiR, and 9, c9, cc9, ccc9, and so on.
I believe that the limited use similar strokes have created a very
repetitious looking alphabet, but none the less - an alphabet.

			John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr  7 10:47:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 22:41:00 -0700
From: Luis Velez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve>
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Dear all,

I would be grateful if someone could help me find out where can one
obtain a copy of the printed proceedings to this or latter conferences
on the subject:

http://www.hum.port.ac.uk/Users/ralph.cleminson/mss/report.htm

Sincerely,

Luis Velez
lvelez@telcel.net.ve

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr  7 03:05:02 1997
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John wrote:

 > The second point, and the one that I've been continually attempting to
> resolve in my own mind, is that the character set seems to create a
> false repetition with R, iR, iiR, iiiR, and 9, c9, cc9, ccc9, and so on.
> I believe that the limited use similar strokes have created a very
> repetitious looking alphabet, but none the less - an alphabet.

An interesting feature to be found on f66r is the column of
single characters between the 'words' and the normal text. One
of the characters is AT/ai2/air in Currier/Frogguy/EVA. The
suggestion is strong that this apparent composite is really a single
character, and by analogy the same could be true for similar
constructions (e.g. AM/aiil/aiin). For what it's worth, Brumbaugh
seems to have held the same opinion.
Furthermore I am in favour of Frogguy's theory that CC/cc/ee is a
single character too. CC/cc/ee may be freely exchanged by C/c/e or
S/ct/ch, and also to a lesser extent A/a/a. This is
frequently immediately after a gallows character. I'm not too sure
what to think about CCC/ccc/eee though. It could be one, or it could
be C+CC or CC+C. Note that both SC and CS occur, the former much
more frequently, but usually word-initial. When S is word-initial
(i.e. very often) it cannot be exchanged with CC or C.
Rather than grammar or spelling I would call these syntax rules,
and they are just a few of the many syntax rules that still lack
an explanation.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr  7 11:41:06 1997
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To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re Re: glagolitic
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 16:11:01 +0100 ( + )
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  From Denis V Mardle            7 April 1997

  John   You said

<<<
The second point, and the one that I've been continually attempting to
resolve in my own mind, is that the character set seems to create a
false repetition with R, iR, iiR, iiiR, and 9, c9, cc9, ccc9, and so on.
I believe that the limited use similar strokes have created a very
repetitious looking alphabet, but none the less - an alphabet.
               >>>

  If my ( and other peoples )  roman numerals, especially as I expanded
  on  Sat, 05 Apr 97 14:01:13 GMT   are correct then  I  and C would
have to represent two of  I , X, C, M etc  If 20, 30, 40, etc each have
there own symbol and words represent numbers less than 2000
perhaps I is I and C is C.  Again, O has less variants following than
A but the similarities are confused by errors in reading.  The Z and S
could easily be DC or even CD if , as some people believe, there
are two versions of Z.  Similarly S could be CC.  The latter is borne
out by the variants of  Q, X, W and Y which might be CPC, CFC,
CBC and CVC.  f93r has a very clear example of CF with the C joined
and  I have seen a Q ( I think - it was on a top line ) that is a CPC
with no joins for the C's.    The other stange thing is the lengthened
P at the start of a few pages.  The ends of the first four  I've looked
at come down in the middle of S's at both ends.  By the way are there
any certain ZZ doublets anywhere - there are SS's ?
  What I am more worried about is the final character after I's or C's
E looxs like it should be V or less likely X, j ust possibly L  but D,R,J
are probably  I , backward C ;  I, backward C higher up and final I
for the J.  There are strings of  C's ending in 2 which is just C with
backward C higher up.   I wonder if 9 is 9 and 8 is what ? 

  Comments on the above will be appreciated.

  Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr  7 11:47:07 1997
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To: Rene Zandbergen <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re Was: Re: glagolitic
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 16:34:50 +0100 ( + )
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    From  Denis Mardle                 7 April 1997

  Rene says 
  <<<
An interesting feature to be found on f66r is the column of
single characters between the 'words' and the normal text. One
of the characters is AT/ai2/air in Currier/Frogguy/EVA. The
suggestion is strong that this apparent composite is really a single
character, and by analogy the same could be true for similar
constructions (e.g. AM/aiil/aiin). For what it's worth, Brumbaugh
seems to have held the same opinion.
            >>>>>

 I agree completely.    See also the examples on the inner ring
of f57v

<<<
Furthermore I am in favour of Frogguy's theory that CC/cc/ee is a
single character too. CC/cc/ee may be freely exchanged by C/c/e or
S/ct/ch, and also to a lesser extent A/a/a. This is
frequently immediately after a gallows character. I'm not too sure
what to think about CCC/ccc/eee though. It could be one, or it could
be C+CC or CC+C. Note that both SC and CS occur, the former much
more frequently, but usually word-initial. When S is word-initial
(i.e. very often) it cannot be exchanged with CC or C.
Rather than grammar or spelling I would call these syntax rules,
and they are just a few of the many syntax rules that still lack
an explanation.

Cheers, Rene
   >>>>>>>

   I prefer the S to CC and  Z to DC ( or less likely CD ) expansions
into roman numerals  but my views here are not so strong and a
SSCC or SCCC would give me problems since they should be
DC and D ( but does a roman D exist in the alphabet ? )

 Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Apr  6 18:59:01 1997
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Message-Id: <334918D2.7928@trl.telstra.com.au>
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 08:54:59 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Reply-To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
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... has been playing up BIG TIME.
For instance, I just received today Monday 7 April e-mail
send from the US on Sunday 30 March. And a stream of
duplicates and triplicates. Occasionally too, it refuses
to deliver mail outside telstra.com.au, and sometimes
it keeps trying every hour, filling my mail-box with
my bounced messages. The stuff-up is at my end.
("Ce sont toujours les cordonniers les plus mal 
chausses").

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr  8 21:26:01 1997
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Message-ID: <334AEF25.257@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 21:21:41 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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No great Voynich stuff to read today... everybody must be very busy
working on it! Or does everybody suffer from miserable servers like 
poor Jacques? My server has been awfully difficult to get onto lately,
but at least I do seem to be getting my mail on a regular basis.

  Rene says
>   <<<
> An interesting feature to be found on f66r is the column of
> single characters between the 'words' and the normal text. One
> of the characters is AT/ai2/air in Currier/Frogguy/EVA. The
> suggestion is strong that this apparent composite is really a single
> character, and by analogy the same could be true for similar
> constructions (e.g. AM/aiil/aiin). For what it's worth, Brumbaugh
> seems to have held the same opinion.

	Ouch! On that last line! As for F66, I'm still voting for it to be a
page of prefix and suffix rules for the 15 declensions/conjugations or
parts of speech...

> 
>  I agree completely.    See also the examples on the inner ring
> of f57v
> 
	I really wish I had a 'real' copy to work from. But for now, the
translit versions are puzzling enough.

> <<<
> Furthermore I am in favour of Frogguy's theory that CC/cc/ee is a
> single character too. CC/cc/ee may be freely exchanged by C/c/e or
> S/ct/ch, and also to a lesser extent A/a/a.

	Interesting.

> This is frequently immediately after a gallows character. I'm not too > sure what to think about CCC/ccc/eee though. It could be one, or it 
> could be C+CC or CC+C.

	Always possible, but like iii - (and all the others) I don't think the
character truly is completed until you run into one of the 'five' final
strokes represented in 8 or 7, O or E, 2 or R, 9 or D?, 6 or J - I
believe those are the right pairs - it's been so long since I've tried
to pair them up between the C and I series. - But, then theres...
 
> Note that both SC and CS occur, the former much more frequently, but > usually word-initial. When S is word-initial
> (i.e. very often) it cannot be exchanged with CC or C.

	And that ruins the 'always' followed by one of the 'five' final
strokes. Along with the A - which seems to end a C or start a I series
at the same time... And lest we not forget those gallows which if
removed from the text entirely would probably result in an even higher
rate of word repetition. 
> Rather than grammar or spelling I would call these syntax rules,
> and they are just a few of the many syntax rules that still lack
> an explanation.

	True, sorrowfully true. If only we could read the grammar rules on
folio 66? 

>>> Dennis wrote

>    I prefer the S to CC and  Z to DC ( or less likely CD ) expansions
> into roman numerals  but my views here are not so strong and a
> SSCC or SCCC would give me problems since they should be
> DC and D ( but does a roman D exist in the alphabet ? )
> 
>  Denis

	Alas, Dennis I really don't want it to equate to numerals
throughout(Although, it would be great in the calendar section)! That
would mean it was encrypted, and I for one want (so unbiased, aren't I?)
for this thing to be an ancient text that was perhaps copied by scribes
in the middle ages from an original that decayed shortly after the
scribes managed to salvage it as the only existing example of its kind
(even in their day) - or something like that.

			Have a good Day  8-)

				John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 10 17:02:06 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: "'John & Sue Grove'" <handley@fox.nstn.ca>,
        "voynich@rand.org"
	 <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: It's too quiet out there
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:54:57 -0600
Encoding: 20 TEXT
Status: OR



----------
From: 	John & Sue Grove[SMTP:handley@fox.nstn.ca]
Sent: 	Tuesday, April 08, 1997 19:21
To: 	voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	It's too quiet out there

No great Voynich stuff to read today... everybody must be very busy

Busy is the operative word. I've been watching the very active 
correspondence, but haven't had time to get much done.  When I was working 
on the recepies section, I did note that the recepies have unique contents, 
that is, the elements of any given "potion" (container?) are present in any 
other one (except for one element which is in 2 of them, but that 
duplication is doubtful).  Is this common in other herbals? That is, are al 
combinations of ingredients in the other herbals mutually exclusive?

Best to all of you
Don Latham

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 10 17:59:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:56:45 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Don Latham wrote:
> 
> ----------
> From:   John & Sue Grove[SMTP:handley@fox.nstn.ca]
> Sent:   Tuesday, April 08, 1997 19:21
> To:     voynich@rand.org
> Subject:        It's too quiet out there
> 
> No great Voynich stuff to read today... everybody must be very busy
> 
> Busy is the operative word. I've been watching the very active
> correspondence, but haven't had time to get much done.  When I was working
> on the recepies section, I did note that the recepies have unique contents,
> that is, the elements of any given "potion" (container?) are present in any
> other one (except for one element which is in 2 of them, but that
> duplication is doubtful).  Is this common in other herbals? That is, are al
> combinations of ingredients in the other herbals mutually exclusive?
> 
> Best to all of you
> Don Latham

	I think you might note that some of those ingredients are also listed
in the calendar/zodiac pages as star/day name labels... I recently took
a stab at global replacing the recipe list words throughout the
interln.txt file with bold print and found some of the words appear
throughout virtually every section - herbal, zodiac, biological... As I
don't yet have an actual copy of the ms, I am anxious to know what are
the distinct features of each labelled item. My guess is that some of
the plants are very similar to one another - hopefully, as similar as
their names are. In some cases the difference is one letter - a final 9
which I'm hoping might represent a plural on some nouns.

			John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 10 18:50:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:48:38 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199704102248.SAA23919@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <334D621D.2A49@fox.nstn.ca> (message from John & Sue Grove on
	Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:56:45 -0400)
Subject: Re: It's too quiet out there
Status: OR


> 	I think you might note that some of those ingredients are also listed
> in the calendar/zodiac pages as star/day name labels... I recently took a
> stab at global replacing the recipe list words throughout the interln.txt
> file with bold print and found some of the words appear throughout virtually
> every section - herbal, zodiac, biological... 

Been there, done that, wasn't sure it led anywhere. Poke around in the mailing
list archive for my messages from '92-ish on labels. My main findings (minus
rigorous statistical hypothesis testing) were:

	the labels appear in the running herbal/bio text about as 
	frequently as you'd expect from a digraph model of the running 
	text

	the frequency of matches from one sample of labels differed
	between the Herbal A, Herbal B, and Biological B sections
	(significant because Tiltman hadn't seen any differences
	between Bio B and Herbal B)

	label-initial/final and running text line-initial/final stats
	differ: using a label corpus from f68r1, f70v2, f72r2, f88r, 
	and f100r,

		4O is line initial 17.9% in the mss, < 1% in the labels
		AM is line final 11.5% in the mss, 3.6% in the labels
		OF is line initial 2.1% in the mss, 22.2% in the labels
		OP is line initial 3.5% in the mss, 33.9% in the labels

	aligning label matches didn't set off any bells in terms of
	suggesting inflection structures to people (some label matches 
	from f68r1, a "star label" folio:

labels:<68108A> OPZC9
voynich:03711A    8SO8/4OPCCO89/9PS9/4OPZC9/8SAM/SOEO89-
voynich:05405A OPOE/SOE/8AM/SFAM/ZOM/4OPSC9/4OPZC9/8A3-
voynich:06114A                  2SC9/4OPZC9/8AM/Q2-
voynich:08115A                  BSO89/OPZC9/8O8AM#
voynich:10103A                      PSOPZC9/4OP9/OFSOE/PSO89/4OPAJ/OF9-9POE89-
voynich:15521B       BOE/ZAR/ZCT/BSC9/OPZC9/OFAO2/AM/OFZC9/8AEFCCC9R9-
voynich:15625B .../4OPAN/OPCC89/OEFAN/OPZC9/2AN/OE-
voynich:15807B ...OE/PSC9/4OFOE/ZC89/4OPZC9/2AE9/FSC9/2POEBS9-

labels:<68110A> OFCAR
voynich:02706A OS9/FOFAM/S89/2AM/OFCAR-
voynich:06009B ...AM/SCPSC9/QCC9/OFCAR-
voynich:08206A                OFCOFCAR/SCOPSAR-29-2AM/QAR/8AJ-
voynich:14822B                  4OFCAR/SC89/ZX9/8OE/9SCC89/...
voynich:14928B ...R/OE/AE/OR/SOE/OFCAR/AR/*/OE9-
voynich:15136B ...C89/4OE/SCC89/4OFCAR/SCC9/EOE9/89-
voynich:16412B ...OE/RSC89/SCOE/4OFCAR/ZOE89-
voynich:16415B ...AE/4OFAM/ZC8E/4OFCAR/SCC89/OESCC9/4OFAE/4OFAO9-

labels:<68112A> 9PSO89
voynich:01401A         BOE9Z9/ZC9/PSO89/4OBS9/OPZOE/89/8AM/PZO8O89-
voynich:01511A ZOE/SCO8AM/8AM/8O/9PSO89/SOP/SOP9/OPARM-
voynich:08706A   OPSAR/OFSAR/8AM/9PSO89/PSOEOE/OPAE/8AE/8AR9-
voynich:10003A PSO89/Q9/SXC9/4O8/9PSO89-8SOE/2AM/9PAJ-

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 10 22:26:03 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: "'John & Sue Grove'" <handley@fox.nstn.ca>,
        "voynich@rand.org"
	 <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: It's too quiet out there
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:37:08 -0600
Encoding: 36 TEXT
Status: OR



----------
From: 	Don Latham[SMTP:djl@montana.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, April 10, 1997 14:54
To: 	'John & Sue Grove'; voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	RE: It's too quiet out there



----------
From: 	John & Sue Grove[SMTP:handley@fox.nstn.ca]
Sent: 	Tuesday, April 08, 1997 19:21
To: 	voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	It's too quiet out there

No great Voynich stuff to read today... everybody must be very busy

Busy is the operative word. I've been watching the very active
correspondence, but haven't had time to get much done.  When I was working
on the recepies section, I did note that the recepies have unique contents, 
that is, the elements of any given "potion" (container?) are present in any 
other one (except for one element which is in 2 of them, but that
duplication is doubtful).  Is this common in other herbals? That is, are al 
combinations of ingredients in the other herbals mutually exclusive?

Best to all of you
Don Latham

addendum:  suppose that the se are not recepies but a classification system 
of some kind; things that belong together fore some reason but not 
necessarily to be ingested together. Then the paras that are connected are 
not instructions for compounding but are group descriptions. This seems 
more likely as an explanation of the exclusivity???
Don


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Apr 13 23:47:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:41:45 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199704140341.XAA02066@heron.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Selenus, Strong, and progressive key ciphers
Status: OR


Jacques,

You were expressing some puzzlement over one of Strong's worksheets:

> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:57:02 -0800/From: Jacques Guy
> To: voynich@rand.org/Subject: VMS. Strong. 002.GIF 
> 
> USA=LLIE s=e===e LU=OV god ON VEN=VS SU=TLI DUC=TLE ROU=LLS The
> 4olpc8a2 ctclpa9 oqpo2 8o2 o2 4olpox oqpc89 4oqpc89 4olpc89 8ax
> 741=3579 7=5===3 14=74 135 79 753=14 74=135 797=531 474=135 797
> 
> [....]
> 
> Note: [....]
> 
> 3. It looks like a straight Vigenere cipher, with a 12-digit key:
>    741357975314. But I can't get the Voynich from the English, even allowing
>    for the occasional error. For instance, line 1 I see L+3 enciphering as 
>    <c> once, and as <8> twice; but L=1 also enciphers as <c> and as <o> and 
>    L=5 as <8> on that same line. And on the next line, L+9 enciphers as <8>
>    and L+4 as <o>.

Suppose it's something like 

   <a = (a + 7) mod 26> <a = (a + 7 + 4) mod 26> <a = (a + 7 + 4 + 1) mod 26>

rather than

   <a = (a + 7) mod 26> <a = (a + 4) mod 26> <a = (a + 1) mod 26> etc.

This came to mind due to the mental juxtaposition while poking through some of
my Voynich notes of Strong's comment in his letter of Dec. 22, 1948 to 
Genevieve Miller

>      The key to the code can be found in Porta and Trithemius.  It is also
> discussed in the Cryptomenes of Gustavus Selenus, a copy of which I own.
> This is all I can say on the method.

with a message from Jim Reeds:

> From: reeds@research.att.com/Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 17:28 EDT
> To: voynich@rand.org/Subject: Heidelgram
> 
> The other day I dropped in to the Bancroft library in Berkeley and looked at
> their Schott and Selenus, which date from roughly the same era as the Heidel
> book.  In one of them (I forget which, but I think it was Selenus) there is
> an explanation of a progressive key cipher, according to which this
> paragraph would be enciphered "Ujh synlz..."

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 14 04:32:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:28:03 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Selenus, Strong, and progressive key ciphers
To: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
> To: voynich@rand.org
> Subject: Selenus, Strong, and progressive key ciphers
> Date: Sunday, April 13, 1997 8:41 PM
> 
> 
> Jacques,
> 
> You were expressing some puzzlement over one of Strong's worksheets:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:57:02 -0800/From: Jacques Guy
> > To: voynich@rand.org/Subject: VMS. Strong. 002.GIF 
> > 
> > USA=LLIE s=e===e LU=OV god ON VEN=VS SU=TLI DUC=TLE ROU=LLS The
> > 4olpc8a2 ctclpa9 oqpo2 8o2 o2 4olpox oqpc89 4oqpc89 4olpc89 8ax
> > 741=3579 7=5===3 14=74 135 79 753=14 74=135 797=531 474=135 797
> > 
> > [....]
> > 
> > Note: [....]
> > 
> > 3. It looks like a straight Vigenere cipher, with a 12-digit key:
> >    741357975314. But I can't get the Voynich from the English, even
allowing
> >    for the occasional error. For instance, line 1 I see L+3 enciphering
as 
> >    <c> once, and as <8> twice; but L=1 also enciphers as <c> and as <o>
and 
> >    L=5 as <8> on that same line. And on the next line, L+9 enciphers as
<8>
> >    and L+4 as <o>.
> 
> Suppose it's something like 
> 
>    <a = (a + 7) mod 26> <a = (a + 7 + 4) mod 26> <a = (a + 7 + 4 + 1) mod
26>
> 
> rather than
> 
>    <a = (a + 7) mod 26> <a = (a + 4) mod 26> <a = (a + 1) mod 26> etc.
> 
> This came to mind due to the mental juxtaposition while poking through
some of
> my Voynich notes of Strong's comment in his letter of Dec. 22, 1948 to 
> Genevieve Miller
> 
> >      The key to the code can be found in Porta and Trithemius.  It is
also
> > discussed in the Cryptomenes of Gustavus Selenus, a copy of which I
own.
> > This is all I can say on the method.
> 
> with a message from Jim Reeds:
> 
> > From: reeds@research.att.com/Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 17:28 EDT
> > To: voynich@rand.org/Subject: Heidelgram
> > 
> > The other day I dropped in to the Bancroft library in Berkeley and
looked at
> > their Schott and Selenus, which date from roughly the same era as the
Heidel
> > book.  In one of them (I forget which, but I think it was Selenus)
there is
> > an explanation of a progressive key cipher, according to which this
> > paragraph would be enciphered "Ujh synlz..."
> 
> Karl

I have been waiting for some serious analysis of the worksheets, and I can
tell you that the answer is not readily apparent on any of them.  I also
own both a Latin copy and an English copy of Gustavus Selenus, and after
much effort I do believe the answer to be contained in Selenus and Porta,
although I am not sure how the Trithemian relation works, except to say
that Trithemius did suggest ciphers like the Voynich.  I believe his
underhanded suggestion is what Strong was referring to.

When I first met Betty McKaig, she instructed me that Strong felt the
system moved like a knight on a chessboard, down a certain number of
spaces, and over a certain number.  Her analogy has worked in my efforts. 
I took it to mean that the system had more than two dimensions, and both
Porta and Selenus described systems such as these.  They are commonly known
as Porta Wheel systems today.  This is a wheeled system, with some
interesting twists.

The above is why I responded that certain elements of Strong's notes seem
to correlate to vertical steps, and not to the linear progression.  I see
no evidence that Strong carried his work as far as a wheel, but I am
certain that his work is good enough to be called genuine, considering the
few pages he had available.  If life had given him the Voynich to read, we
would not be here discussing the matter.

Do not quote me on the page number, as I have been working off an old copy
for many years.  My reading of the page is folio 100r, but I ask you to
match character spaces to verify.  Once you have straightened out the first
two alphabets according to mathematical rules, you can read the beginning
of this page - backwards.  Instead of allowing the system to transfer
characters backwards, move the characters forward - i.e., reverse the
system.  It could simply be that the Hand A and Hand B distinction is the
direction of the cipher movement, but please do not quote me on that.  This
is just an observation at this point.

My first two corrected alphabets read my folio 100r as such:  Sterres deny
Lyonix Yorx apogee... (this is a reverse of the system).

"Stars deny the Lion of York apogee..."

My first two corrected alphabets read my folio 84r as such:  Bel Opvs,
snath owles plaugh...

"Fair moon, snatch owles plow..."  [Opis in this case is associated with
Artemus, directly connected to the moon.]

I do not create the words, they are created by mathematical computation. 
Sterres and deny are common spellings from the 16th century, as well as the
word apogee.  Lyonix Yorx is not.  We must assume that these words are
created to make the cipher appear fluent while retaining their meaning. 
This is evidence that the final scriptual appearance of the cipher was very
important to the author.  This is an aspect of the cipher I have long
stated and never had challenged.  The downside of the argument is how far
the author would be willing to travel into ambiguity to maintain cipher
integrity.

As I can see above by example, what is keeping you from understanding is
the transcription methods you use.  That has always been the problem with
the Voynich.  Strong uses a certain notation for characters, and I suggest
you adopt a singular notation for his characters before you attempt
analaysis.  You must know German to interpret German, and you must know
Strong to interpret Strong.  This is just  a suggestion.

I look forwsrd to your findings, as I have been chomping at the bit
lateley.  Good luck gentlemen.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 14 13:17:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: firthr@db.erau.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Selenus, Strong, and progressive key ciphers
Status: OR

>I do not create the words, they are created by mathematical computation.
>Sterres and deny are common spellings from the 16th century, as well as the
>word apogee.

I'm puzzled here.  How can the word "apogee" possibly be
common in the sixteenth century, given that the concept
rests completely on Kepler's First Law, which was known
only to Kepler until he published the Astronomia Nova in 1609.

TTFN
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 14 18:59:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:53:59 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: Selenus, Strong, and progressive key ciphers
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: Robert Firth <firthr@db.erau.edu>
> Subject: Re: Selenus, Strong, and progressive key ciphers
> Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 3:50 PM
> 
> > I'm puzzled here.  How can the word "apogee" possibly be
> > common in the sixteenth century, given that the concept
> > rests completely on Kepler's First Law, which was known
> > only to Kepler until he published the Astronomia Nova in 1609.
> 
> One thing I have discovered about the Voynich author is that his
interests
> are far from mathematical, which is my only argument against Dee being
the
> author.  The use of the word 'apogee' here has some astrological meaning,
> not astronomical or mathematical.  What that meaning is can only be
> determined by studying astrological texts, not scientific texts.  I can
> only say that I applied a mathematical system and this is what was
produced
> by that system.  I am not responsible for the contents, only the system.
> 
> When I first read "Bel opvs snath owles plaugh" I was very confused.  I
> knew bel to mean fair, and owles to mean owls, and plaugh to mean plow,
but
> 'opvs' and 'snath' I did not know in this context.  It was only when I
> checked variant spellings that I ran across Opis and the relation to the
> moon that I understood bel opvs to mean "Fair Moon".  Thus the mental
> picture begins to be drawn.  A fair moon, and owls soaring under it, so
> what do owls do?  I scanned the internet for any mention of a "Snatch
Owl"
> but found none.  One thing I did find is that the word "snatch" is most
> often used when depicting the hunting movements of owls.  This makes some
> sense.
> The passage thus describes owls hunting under a full moon.
> 
> What becomes clear is that the author was big on mental imagery.  Perhaps
> the "Lion of York" is the author's view of himself, and his inability to
> reach some sort of apex in his life is why he feels he is denied
'apogee'. 
> I try to make some sense of the words, but in the end it is the
> mathematical system that is important.  Future scholars can quibble over
> the meaning.
> 
> Regards,  Rayman
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 14 19:38:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:33:45 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Strongs Worksheets
To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Rayman
                 I've just seen your message to Karl of today.  You didn't
mention
that one has to subtract not add the slide and work with the 23 long
alphabet
ie A-Z less J,Y and Z.    I'm having great difficulty getting more than
halfway in
my attempt to reconstruct the f93r worksheet.  I've had to go back to the
f78r
one to get both ciher value sets in the 23 columns for f78r and f93r
independently.   For each I am using labels for the columns as -

Plain      A       B      C    .....                           V       W   
  X

           B-1    C-1   D-1                                 W-1  X-1   A-1
          D-3    E-3   F-3                                  A-3   B-3   C-3
          E-4    F-4   G-4                                  B-4   C-4   D-4
          F-5    G-5   H-5                                 C-5   D-5   E-5
          H-7    I-7    K-7                                  E-7  F-7   
G-7


 Keys                 23 columns of cipher values from cribbed
                               slide and plain values noting frequency
                               when repeated and different value with
                               text position on next key line when new
                               key comes in ( and for which the plain
                               value cribbed at that moment has little
                               chance of being right )

 Note   Since Strong has nearly always using corresponding
word lengths in plain and cipher one can get a good idea of
his cribbing and the single letter words are nearly all A or I in
the plain.   Unfortunately his version of the text does not agree
in places with ours, he sometimes has CC as one character,
more often as two, and he slips forwards and backwards in
the slide sequence at intervals. His version of f93r near the
end seems particularly at variance ( in word lengths ) with
our texts, no doubt from difficulties in reading the cipher.

  I think the system is almost impossible to use, as Kahn points
out since it slows down encipherment enormously and is
not decipherable without the key values.

    Rayman  is your f100r text based on predictable rather than
human random keys ?

    Denis
----------

Denis, my partial reading of folio 100r is based on a mathematical method,
and human factors do not enter into that method.

  I too have had problems reassembling folio 93 recto.  My best effort got
me 292 characters into the page before I had to readjust my findings.  What
I finally decided to do is to study what I knew to be an accurate
representation of Strong's work, and that is folio 78 recto.

I maintain two separate transcriptions of this folio - one of my own and
one that represents Strong's characters.  My approach was to chart Strongs
worksheet by the 24 alphabet columns, and see if anything appeared.  In
fact several things did appear.  The only character used in column 13 for
over 200 characters was the "O" character.  Beyond this point the "O"
character shifted left, then right by the same numerical amount.  Other
columns demonstrated an almost consistent use of three separate characters,
while certain characters demonstrated shifts to the left or right by
numeric means.  This discovery was my first inclination toward the wheel.

The cribbing problem was a big one, and the fact that Strong's notation did
not match my own was of grave concern.  By charting his work in this manner
I was able to identify characters that only appeared once or twice, and by
eliminating them I found certain sections to be out of alignment with his
horizontally rotating scheme.  In fact I identified four sections to be out
of synch.  Two I was able to bring back into synch using my own
transcription, and the other two I was at a loss to describe.  My total
character count of those that fit the pattern was 800 out of 1198, a very
good sample for study purposes.  Everything after character 1000 was of no
use to me because I could not bring it back into alignment, and a section
in the 300 count was also questionable.

The pattern I discovered had it problems, no doubt brought about by
Strong's tendency to fill in the blanks.  Nevertheless, it was
statistically too consistent to be random, and the only question was
whether the consistency was of Strong's doing or of the system itself.  I
am very happy I chose to investigate this further.  The process is a long
one, and involves verifying a character and rewriting the plaintext for
each verified character, but you will get to that soon enough.  This is the
only way to go beyond Strong's "fill in the blanks" method, as far as I
have been able to discover up to this point.

As we would expect from a wheel, certain characters move certain distances
one way or the other.  The puzzling thing is that some do not, and this is
why I believe the wheel to have multiple alphabets on it, and not just one.
 While most columns demonstrate the use of three characters in any given
section, some actually have four.  I thought this meant that there might be
four wheels, but now I have changed my opinion somewhat.  A case in point
is the gallows characters.  I do not know the VSG for these characters, so
I call them H and K by my transcription.  These characters show up
consistently in the same column, and therefore appear to be
interchangeable.  Certain other characters with almost identical properties
tend to function in this manner as well.  How odd.

Once I discovered this, I began checking on the shift to see if there was
something in common with its movement and these characters.  I will let you
fill in this section when you get to it.

If you would like, I can prepare a copy of the initial tables that led me
to my conclusions.  Be warned that my transcription has nothing in common
with VSG methods however.  I maintain the entire Voynich in a database, but
it seems to be of no use to anyone because I transcribed it before learning
of the VSG and its methods.  I cannot see changing all of my work to
methods I am not familiar with, so I can only communicate in what I know.

If my transcription will be suitable for statistical purposes, I will begin
preparing my tables and their explanations.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 15 03:41:02 1997
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Dear all,

I would not expect that the word apogee, in the meaning of 'furthest away
from the Earth' should only exist after Kepler formulated his laws. It does
imply the Earth being the reference, which fits with pre-Keplerian ideas.
On the other hand, I have not seen much evidence of medieval (or earlier)
interest in the variability of distances of things from the Earth.
Certainly
the relative distances of the spheres was 'measured' and settled. But
whether a planet was higher or lower in its sphere did not seem to attract
much attention (as opposed to where it was in the zodiac).

More important is when its metaphorical meaning ('height' or apex) was
first used. I expect this to be much later. An  English etymological
dictonary should give the answer.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 15 07:32:05 1997
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Thanks to our alchemical friend for the OED quotation.
It indicates that apogee might just possibly have been used
by the Voynich writer in a figurative sense, if one were to
accept that the Ms could be from the late 16th C.

While we're on a subject I actually know something about
(but then I didn't know Ptolemy already used the term
apogee :-/):
I should know better than to criticise the OED, but apogee
is used most frequently for other objects than the moon,
as most of you will realise.
And the question of  geocentrism vs. heliocentrism has
probably lost all meaning. As far as I'm concerned, the
Earth is the centre of the Universe, but some calculations
are more easily done by taking another point (not the
centre of the Sun though).

And now, back to the middle ages,
                Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 15 06:53:01 1997
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From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: apogee
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>From the Oxford English Dictionary:--

apogee. Astr.

[a. Fr. apoge (in Cotgr. 1611), f. L. apogum, a. Gr.), adj. neut. _away
from the earth,'), but used absol. by Ptolemy in the modern astronomic
sense. Formerly used in Gr. or L. form apogeon, -gum, -geum.]

1. The point in the orbit of the moon, or of any planet, at which it is at
its greatest distance from the earth; also, the greatest distance of the sun
from the earth when the latter is in aphelion. (A term of the Ptolemaic
Astronomy, which viewed the earth as the centre of the universe; in modern
astronomy strictly used in reference to the moon, and popularly said of the
sun in reference to its apparent motion.)
1594 J. Davis Seamans Secr., Her Slowe Motion is in the point of Auge or apogeo.
1656 tr. Hobbes' Elem. Philos. (1839) 443 The apogum of the sun or the
aphelium of the earth.
1727_51 Chambers Cycl., Apogee is a point in the heavens at the extreme of
the line of the apsides.
1812 Woodhouse Astron. xix. 206 Apogee, if the Sun be supposed to revolve,
Aphelion, if the Earth.
1868 Lockyer Heavens (ed. 3) 130 The greatest distance of the Moon from the
Earth is about 6434 the equatorial radius of our globe. When the Moon is at
this distance, it is said to be in apogee.
_ 2. The greatest altitude reached by the sun in his apparent course; his
meridional altitude on the longest day. Obs.
1605 Bacon Adv. Learn. (1640) 146 The Apoge or middle point; and Perige or
lowest point of heaven.
1646 Sir T. Browne Pseud. Ep. vi. v. (1686) 242 In the Apogeum or highest
point it is not so hot under that Tropick.
3. Hence fig.
a. The most distant or remote spot.
b. The highest point, climax, culmination.
1600 Fairfax Tasso ii. lxvii. 33 Thy Sunne is in his Apogon placed, And
when it moueth next, must needes descend.
1642 H. More Song of Soul ii. iii. ii. xii, She [the Soul] doth ascend, Unto
her circles ancient Apogie.
1670 Eachard Contempt Clergy 54 Sometimes he withdraws himself into the
apogum of doubt, sorrow, and despair.
1858 Motley Dutch Rep. vi. Introd. 33 The trade of the Netherlands_had
however by no means reached its apogee.
----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 15 11:05:02 1997
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Subject: Re: apogee
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:00:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
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> I should know better than to criticise the OED, but apogee
> is used most frequently for other objects than the moon,
> as most of you will realise.

That OED entry was probably originally composed before spaceflight became
common. Until the first artificial satellite was launched, the Moon was the
only body whose orbit had an apogee (and perigee). Now, all Earth-orbiting
objects have them. Objects orbiting the Sun have an apohelion (and
perihelion). Orbit the Moon and you have apolune, etc.

-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr 16 00:56:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:52:30 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199704160452.AAA18982@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Request for those analyzing Strong's material
Status: ORr


Jacques, Dennis, Rmalek, etc.,

Could you provide a brief precis of the worksheet items, along with as clear
an example of what (appears) to be going on as is possible at this point?
Did he have an explicit transcription alphabet, and if so what are it's
equivalents in Currier or Frogguy?

Karl

[In the mean time, I'm trying to formulate a graph-theoretic way of answering
the question raised by J. Malcomb Bird almost 76 years ago of whether
Newbold's proposed scheme could be used for enciphering as well as deciphering
-- specifically, if you can encode any string without having to anagram at any
point. I know how to formulate it for a given string...]

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr 16 08:38:02 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:20:21 +0000
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Subject: Break this!
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1)
Status: OR

Hi all,
Ok, who can give any ideas about this?
It should be fairly easy (?).  I'll give some help. It is 
case sensitive, and spaces are not null (there is a space at the end 
of each line).

cheers,
Gabriel


----starts here-----
1yf O 4TW' J6 L 5 lb2q 521 0UF A+cQ FUQ 8e K5
L 1J ZW'qJK6 6P L P 0c M m CofI J6X6 FUR 0d 8d
PsX bd hf P J 4YQ 0md FUS e 4TW' 5F mF XrUB6
YO L 4JBX ENV FUR 4Ks T@ Ef bd pcR O 521 FG
P UBI ZC5c t 0A aR O VZ y5S L H8 I Y QJ O
99g k OV 2q5B 2cV k 4R HYd L Z 0d 8W' 1J 0HB7 Kd
a6 YO 99g /E p L AJ mG Ke k 1b 1b 05 t 0Pf Ke
YO L 4YTB I QJ O EBd k Y 3 P&5c D FUP t b O
FXB L Y Kd M |6 4TW' YIKB Kd
5W'wGX 2S *J K@ Y 01K7 X k E&X HH 1J U&a6 QJ
O 4TW' 4/y3 Kd Yg9B L Y 55e 9J O 49d L 9E b Y
Vwf 0B5d 8f J Z2 Z2 0XOBF L Y 0x6K2 QJ O
YI KZV oA L Kd I Z26 Q O FXB Y Q6 1z H |7
Kda7 L 1J PBFK6 9J 4T5f @ 5Fs8K6 V 99g &S O
FoQ K6 k FOV L I UscQ FUR
GG O w1Kql P K7Kd I PP 6F O 5F KW' 1LBS O bB 0e
L I 4Z 2G oB AB 0Fd I b O 4/y3 PKZ5 Ke 4TW' 5F mF
L Y 1F2 4Jc t KL qJ O nB6 k Y YIKB FUQ 8f @
Jd FI I P5 &5B6 2Bg V B K8f & 9J 0e J6 P KT
bd @9g K7 99g /E p Kd
----end----

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr 16 23:23:02 1997
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Message-ID: <33554BB7.1D9D@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:59:19 +0000
From: Michael Ravnitzky <MikeRav@ix.netcom.com>
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Status: OR

Here are specific instructions on how you can get a large pile of 
government reports and documents on the BEALE CIPHERS and the BEALE 
TREASURE.

Simply send a letter to:

National Security Agency
Attn:  Gerald Stoudt
Chief, FOIA Branch
Office of Information Policy, N5P5
Ft. George G. Meade, MD  20755-6000

Dear Mr. Stoudt:

Pursuant to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby 
request one copy of:

all records concerning the "Beale Ciphers" and the "Beale Treasure".

I am an individual, non-commercial requester and I believe that I fall 
into the fee category "all other requesters".  I agree to pay up to $25 
for reasonable expenses.

Some of these records may be classified.  If so, please review them for 
declassification under the applicable law or regulation.

Sincerely,

________________your name

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr 16 23:14:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:02:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Rosettes in Alchemy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970416230037.28585A-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
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Status: OR

    Are the rosette figures with even number of rays in the VMs - like 
f69v1 f85r2, and f70r1, to name a few - typical of alchemy? 
    
    I'm asking this because I'm studying Cathar symbolism.  I've 
finally found a fairly good article by Rene' Nelli, but the figures 
are missing, and it's a little older than I'd like.  In any case,  
Nelli says, "To judge by the remnants - the rare and dubious ones that 
have come down to us - the Cathars of southern France would have 
represented plastically... *all the varieties of crosses with equal 
branches inscribed in a circle,* from the simple Greek cross (the 
diameters of the circle) to solar wheels with five, six, nine, twelve 
rays... They especially used, like the Bogomils, the solar rose *with 
six petals*." pp. 177-8. 

    The few Cathar figures I've seen are simple rose petals inscribed 
in a circle, inscriptions on monuments, not nearly as complex as the 
VMs figures.  Of course, I suppose simple diagrams like that could 
have been an influence on the VMs.  But I rather suspect that rosette 
figures like those in the VMs derive instead from alchemy.  
    
    Nelli's "Bogomil" reference is to the odd gravestones in Bosnia.  
The book below by Bihalji-Merin and Benac gives many excellent 
pictures of these.  In spite of their title, and in spite of Nelli's 
reference, both they, Nelli, and everyone say that the Bosnian 
tombstones may well in fact *not* be Bogomil (the eastern Cathars).  
That is very controversial. 
    
    About all that everyone agrees on is that there was some sort of 
independent Bosnian Christian Church, independent of both Rome and the 
Byzantine Orthodox Church.  
    
    I'm pretty sure - although not entirely - that the inscriptions on 
the tombstones and the literary remnants of the Bosnian Church are in 
Cyrillic script and not Glagolithic nor Latin.  
    
    Strangely enough, it was some Roman Catholic Churches in Dalmatia, 
the Adriatic coast of Croatia, that used the Glagolithic script, 
possibly into this century.   


Dennis 
     
------------------------------------------------------------------

     Bihalji-Merin, Oto, and Benac, Alojz (photographs by Toso Dabac); 
*Bogomil Sculpture*. (Harcourt, Brace & World, New York, no date).  
(It says the original edition was Stec'ci, published by "Jugoslavija", 
Belgrade, 1962.  There is also a French edition.)  NB 1596 B6 B53.   
    
    Nelli, Rene'; "Iconographie du Catharisme (Iconography of 
Catharism)", pp, 157-178, with one figure (The Sarcophagus of Domazan, 
France) in a section called "Iconographie" between p. 6 and p. 7.  
Date perhaps 1964-5.  In Nelli, Niel, Duvernoy, and Roche', *Les 
Cathares*.   

    Nelli, Rene'; Niel, Fernand; Duvernoy, Jean; & Roche', Diodat; 
*Les Cathares.*.  (c. Editions de Delphes, 29, rue de Tre'vise, Paris-
9e, no date; perhaps 1964-5.  "Il a ete imprime par Carbie`re et 
Jugain a` Alenc,on.  L'edition comprend 1300 ouvrages hors commerce 
reserves aux souscripteurs, dont 15, numerotes de A a` O pour nos 
collaborateurs."  )  [ The latest reference in the book is to 
archaeological digs in July-August 1964 (p. 164)  The essay that 
interests me the most, "Iconographie du Catharisme," by Rene' Nelli, 
pp. 157-178, refers to several Figures, but only one of them is in the 
book (The Sarcophagus of Domazan, France), and it is at the front, in 
a section called "Iconographie" between p. 6 and p. 7. ] 


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 17 12:38:04 1997
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Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.00656e69732e562e3142433330303035@MAPI.to.RFC822>
To: Michael Ravnitzky <MikeRav@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Beale ciphers and the treasure
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 14:03:38 +0100 ( + )
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     From Denis V Mardle                   17 April 1997

Michael Ravnitzky   writs

 <<<<
Here are specific instructions on how you can get a large pile of 
government reports and documents on the BEALE CIPHERS and the BEALE 
TREASURE.

Simply send a letter to:

National Security Agency
Attn:  Gerald Stoudt
Chief, FOIA Branch
Office of Information Policy, N5P5
Ft. George G. Meade, MD  20755-6000

Dear Mr. Stoudt:

Pursuant to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby 
request one copy of:

all records concerning the "Beale Ciphers" and the "Beale Treasure".

I am an individual, non-commercial requester and I believe that I fall 
into the fee category "all other requesters".  I agree to pay up to $25 
for reasonable expenses.

Some of these records may be classified.  If so, please review them for 
declassification under the applicable law or regulation.

Sincerely,

________________your name

         >>>>>>>>

 Many years ago I gave a talk on both the Voynitch Ms and the Beale ciphers.
 The audience were much more interested in the latter, but I may have left my
 notes behind when I retired.  The talk was unclassified.   From what I
remember the first cipher is easy to decipher using the American Declaration
of Independence ( Original Version ) with numbers representing the position
of letters in the key text, so there are many variants for common letters but
rare ones can be fixed if they are the first occurrence in the key.
  The second cipher ( giving the exact, rather than vague location of the treasure
) is now believed to be a hoax since deciphering with the same key gives nonsense
except for one extraordinary stretch - something to do with an alphabetic
sequence if my memory is correct - but there may be later developments

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 17 10:08:06 1997
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:02:39 -0700
From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199704171402.HAA16991@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org, MikeRav@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: <no subject> [Beale FOIA]
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Status: OR

I haven't tried exercising any content control on the list -- well,
not much -- but the Beale posting is off-topic.  Other fora such as
sci.crypt or perhaps the cryptography mailing list would be better.

Some lists also exclude people who aren't on the list from posting
to it.  If anybody has opinions on this, please write to me (NOT to
the whole list) and I'll summarize if the volume warrants it.

	Jim Gillogly
	Voynich list administrator (but not yet censor)

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:59:19 +0000
> From: Michael Ravnitzky <MikeRav@ix.netcom.com>
> To: voynich@rand.org
> Subject: <no subject>
> 
> Here are specific instructions on how you can get a large pile of 
> government reports and documents on the BEALE CIPHERS and the BEALE 
> TREASURE.

<snippage>

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 17 12:41:03 1997
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To: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re Request for those analyzing Strong's material
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 17:33:01 +0100 ( + )
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   From   Denis V Mardle        17 April 1997

 General reminder       I'm Denis  a different person to Dennis  !

 Karl writes
<<<<
Could you provide a brief precis of the worksheet items, along with as clear
an example of what (appears) to be going on as is possible at this point?
Did he have an explicit transcription alphabet, and if so what are it's
equivalents in Currier or Frogguy?

Karl
             >>>>

  I now have a fairly clear idea of Dr Strong's methods and his Worksheets
although there are several loose ends to look at.  It is clear that Strong had
had Newbold and Kent's book for some years before 1945 and chose f78r
to study because of its clarity ( as my copy illustrates ) . He was then
stimulated by O'Neill's article in late 1944 identifying f93r as the American
sunflower and he must have used the illustation in this to provide his
second page.  I tend to agree with Rayman that he gave f93r priority,
but worked on f78r at the same time and unfortunately combined the
results after cribbing plain text into the early lines of both pages although
more came from f93r as I hope to illustrate.

  Strong used only the text as written, ie as did Petersen. His plain word
lengths do not quite correspond to the Currier set, but some are due to
oddly written symbols. I am using Currier notation throughout.

  I label worksheets W1 to W96.  This agrees with Rayman's order.
W1 to W8 are the write outs of f78r with Strongs plain above ( except
for the first 11 words when it is below ) the cipher. The  two labels at
the top of f78r are also given on W1, but I think there plain was put
in later, not first as I thought originally.  W9 and W11 confirm this
view.  Strong's plain on W1 to W8 also have the repeating sequence
135797531474 tied throughout to the plain ( not the cipher ) unless he
makes a mistake in the plain which certainly happens on f93r ( more
on this later )   He makes the first position 0, but not when he starts
paragraph 2 ( at the top of  W6 ) - I believe this to be mistaken ( and
I would prefer restarts on each line from 1 or less likely 0 ) . These slide
numbers are clearly meant to represent the movement of a cipher wheel
or set of cipher wheels ( fixed  as alphabets on one wheel or themselves
capable of offsets that stay fixed relatively only for one or more pages or
even for paragraphs).   If we write an alphabet by columns in standard
order the slides mean put the cipher value corresponding to the slide
either 1,3,4,5,7 or 9 columns ( taken end around ) earlier. see also W27.
     Strong starts from the beginning with some extremely tentative plain
and fills the cipher into columns in order on  W9 and W11. It appears
he must have changed or added plain between the two sheets. Rayman
believes and I agree that Strong filled in plain holes with lower case characters.
 W12 is the first stab at f93r clearly up to position 30.  W24 gives the cursive
version of f93r plain but differs slightly ( compounde against compound in the
published article )   W22-23 for f78r.    W25-26 related.
       W13 is an additional sheet studying f78r that I must study, it appears to
be re lated to the slide distances.   W14 gives the cipher,plain and text
positions for  0-24  moving over using the slides.  Compare with W1 :-

PL    A  B  C  D   E    F  G  H  I  K  L  M  N  O  P  Q  R  S  T   U  V   W  X  

 Z    9       9   9    Z   8  Z  C          O  8       O  B  C       C   P   4   CC  2

PS E24    I22 E9 M6 I8 H1N7     S11 R3   V4T12R13  V2 T0A10A14H5
SL  4         ?   1   7    3   1  5        7     5      7   4    1      3    0   4    3    9      
PS                 L16     L15                   T23                               F17
SL                   7        5                        7                                   9
Z                    O                   8                                  F              C
PS                 L18                I21                              V19          X20
SL                   7                    ?                                 5              3
where PL = plain Z = cipher  PS = plain shifted and SL = slide

 NOTE   I21 and I22 are errors they should be E21, sl=1 in col D and
S22,sl=4  in col  O

 W15 combines f78r and f93r ( incorrectly ) for the first time but has mostly
f93r and helps to reconstruct the f93r WS.    W16 similar.  W17-W19 are
counts not analysed.  W20 and W21 try to make a 24 vice 23 alphabet
with a partial Latin Square.  

 W28-32 are 5by3 cards I haven't studied.  W33-52 are research notes  W53 
gives a partial count of f78r frequent values only

 W54 on are less important and I can come back to them.   More important
is the fact that  19 times on f78r Strong calls CC a single character, but not
always. There are 9 words where he is one too long and two where he is 
one too short.  By the way on the computer version with C and F versions
the ends of lines 7,11 and 24 on the F version are labels, but only some
of the labels ! C has none and Strong has the same main text as C.

  f93r is more of a problem.  There are small errors in Strong's PL as well
as the same word length problems as in f78r. also I suspect a slide error 
about position 70  and I seem to be stuck about position 357.   For
those wanting a unique lock on point near the end of f93r there is a
single occurrence of CF as one character giving cipher CFSO as
word 2 on line 29   W15 has this in column I so as pl is NEM the
slide has to be 4 giving only two placements.  The Z and PL for
the last 4 lines and the last word previously are
                                2                               
                                I
8AN  CFSO QO QO29
MOT  NEM  MI NAM I

ZO8AM  4OFSO  QOE
DOKT'R ASKAM SHUN

OE SOE  QOE  OESO8
TO TEL MORE SO CAN

8OE SOFAE 2SO2
ALL BE ENT AMEN


Enough for now,  More about the keys later.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 17 21:11:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:05:22 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Request for those analyzing Strong's material
To: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> Could you provide a brief precis of the worksheet items, along with as
clear
> an example of what (appears) to be going on as is possible at this point?
> Did he have an explicit transcription alphabet, and if so what are it's
> equivalents in Currier or Frogguy?

I have just finished reading Denis' response and there is nothing more that
I can add to clarity on the subject of transcription, given my unique
transcription system.  I still believe that scans of at least the important
pages should be made available to the group, but I must admit that my own
pressing work has set me back in that task.

My primary concern for understanding is to get W1 through W8 on the list,
as well as Strong's sequencial alphabet trials.  Perhaps Denis can suggest
other pages necessary as well.  I will check through my list tonight of
people who offered space, and request that space for the more important
documents.  If I am successful in allocating the space, these documents
will be available very soon, as all I have to do is press a button to
transmit them.  Sending them over the mailing list was ruled out as an
option long ago, which demonstrates one weakness in the Internet.

At this juncture I feel that any addition to Denis' precis would be out of
place until I have a chance to analyze his specific findings against my
work.  I must say however that there was nothing he said in a general sense
that I was in disagreement with.

Regards,  Rayman








From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 17 22:41:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:30:41 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Apogee used in the Voynich
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> [a. Fr. apoge (in Cotgr. 1611), f. L. apogum, a. Gr.), adj. neut. _away
> from the earth,'), but used absol. by Ptolemy in the modern astronomic
> sense. Formerly used in Gr. or L. form apogeon, -gum, -geum.]

I re-ran my computer program on folio 100r because Karl Kluge challenged
the word "apogee" in my text, but I came up with the same results each time
I ran it.  I think that with the above information what we are not
understanding is that words actually had other meanings before science
became popular.  It is our thinking that needs realignment, not the system.
 This is a valuable dating tool for the Voynich in my mind.  Karl, I can
tell you that what I plug into my database is a mathematical string, and
this is what my computer tells me when I do that.  Numbers is numbers.

'Apogee' stands as the reading from my modifications to Strong's unusual
system, but then again I am making minor modifications to the program all
the time.  I cannot see an Englishman saying 'apogeo' when he could
simplify it, since the English were the great simplifiers of languistic
speak.  Nevertheless, the Voynich is a most unusual case of linguistic
useage.

Do not forget my reading of folio 84r, which includes 'Opis'.  When we add
Ptolemy and Pliny to the picture we are forming something very close to my
beliefs about the origin of the Voynich.  Add "The Lion of York" and you
can then understand my preoccupation with a certain time frame.

Ptolemy and Artemis are both Greek reading, and Pliny was a standard for
biological and medicinal study throughout a certain period.  I recently
read something on the VSG that said the Ascham's finally settled in York. 
This is incorrect.  They were FROM York from all  I can discover.  Anthony
and Roger Ascham studied at Cambridge because of their father's minor
position at court.  Roger graduated in 1535, and Anthony in 1540.  If you
will study Giles' book on Roger Ascham's letters, (best read through a
translation by Alvin Vos), you will find that the resurgence of the Greek
tongue happened in England in the 1530's, leading to quite a debate before
being vanquished by the six articles of Henry VIII in 1538.  During a time
when open debate was possible, no one would have had reason to write an
entire text in cipher, but after the publication of Henry's articles there
was all the reason in the world.

I am of course assuming that my discovered references to York back up
Strong's cipher claim that the manuscript was written by Doktr Askam,
presumably Anthony, because he was the only Ascham to hold a degree in
anything that resembled medicine.  (M.B., 1540).  There is nothing known
about Anthony from 1540 to 1553, when he was appointed Vicar of Burneston,
to my knowledge.  There is much known however about the situation in York
because of Henry's articles.  The dissolution of the monasteries (combined
with other factors) caused widespread hunger, poverty and disease.  If I
had only an M.B. and returned to such a situation, I would probably be the
most qualified doctor in town.

Let us assume for a moment that the Voynich is by Anthony, and that he
wrote it in cipher because of Henry's six articles.  This would mean that
it must have been written between 1538 and 1547, which narrows the dating
problem down a bit.  Moreover, when Edward VI came into power in 1547,
Anthony presented the publishers with several documents, all containing
subject matter believed to exist in the Voynich.  He immediately published
almanacs from this time, and then his herbal in 1550, as well as an
astrological calendar later on.  If you look at the title pages of the
early books, you find a more interesting story.  The title pages declare
astrological information, but none exists.  Why not?  Astrological, herbal,
medicinal, almanack - these are the topics most commonly referred to by
Voynich researchers.  If the Voynich was indeed written by Anthony Ascham,
perphaps we need to understand more about the political and social climate
in which it was written.

Regards,  Rayman











  










    

  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 18 10:29:03 1997
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Subject: Re: Apogee used in the Voynich
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Following up to:

> > [a. Fr. apoge (in Cotgr. 1611), f. L. apogum, a. Gr.), adj. neut.
_away
> > from the earth,'), but used absol. by Ptolemy in the modern astronomic
> > sense. Formerly used in Gr. or L. form apogeon, -gum, -geum.]

Rayman writes:

> ...  I think that with the above information what we are not
> understanding is that words actually had other meanings
> before science became popular.  It is our thinking that needs
> realignment, not the system.

I humbly disagree. The original post shows the word apogee
was used in its litteral (scientific if you will) sense by
Ptolemy, so that it may have been known to the VMs writer.
Its first documented figurative use is somewhat after the
proposed origin of the VMs (in this case A.Askham's dates).
Somewhat disfavourable, but not impossible. It does not
give any positive clue either way.

Cheers, Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 18 09:29:04 1997
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:13:43 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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One of the fascinating things about the VMs is how much unlike 
anything else it is.  It has been suggested - only half-jokingly - 
that it is of extra-terrestral origin.
    
    However, recently - say from 1996 on - we have discovered some 
hitherto-unknown historical precedents for the VMs.  Here I offer a 
collection of quotations on this.  Most, though not all, are post-
D'Imperio.  
    
    I think it's important to keep such precedents as we have in mind.
    
Cheers,
Dennis

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Precedents for the Voynich Manuscript
April 18, 1997

-General European Provenience
-Astrology
-Alchemy
-Balneological (Bath) Drawings
-Toresella - Alchemical Herbals
-The Script in General
-Trandechino - Renaissance Ciphers

*********************************************************************
*******************      GENERAL EUROPEAN PROVENIENCE  **************
______________________________________________________________________


    The human figures in the VMs are Caucasian; the costumes are in
general European; the astrology is generally European, rather than,
say, Hindu.  The script is derived from medieval Latin abbreviations
(see below).

*********************************************************************
*******************      ASTROLOGY                 ******************
______________________________________________________________________


    "Prominent among the drawings are a series of circular drawings
apparently clearly related to the months of the year, and each
provided with a central medallion showing a zodiac symbol.  A
recognizable, if oddly-spelled month name has been written in what
most students agree is a different and later hand that that of the
Voynich script.  Figure 10 shows details of these month names.  The
page for January and February (Aquarius and Capricorn) is missing,
having been removed before the manuscript was found by Voynich.  The
student's first hope of getting anywhere through the known association
with months or zodiac signs is soon disappointed, since there is
apparently little else in the diagrams that can be remotely associated
with conventional astrological diagrams and horoscopes."

    - D'Imperio, *The VMs: an Elegant Enigma,* , p. 16.


*********************************************************************
*******************       ALCHEMY                  ******************
______________________________________________________________________

To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de (R. Zandbergen x2236 A128 logica/fcsd/oad)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Sunflower revisited (longish)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:29:22 +0100
From: Michael Roe <Michael.Roe@cl.cam.ac.uk>


Rene Zandbergen writes:
> As for more cartoon flowers, take a look at woodcut 17 of the Rosarium
> Philosophorum:
>     http://www.levity.com/alchemy/mylros17.html
> The first time I saw this illustration (the flower in the right-hand
> woodcut) was on the cover of a book about G.Bruno which I had been chasing.
> When I pulled it from the shelf I thought I had a fit :-).

Besides the sunflower, the VMS contains many images that also occur
in other alcehmenical works:

*  On folio 79v the dew (or divine radiance) falls down onto
   the recumbent female figure. (My guess is that is also an allegory
   for the chemical process of fractional distillation)

* f68r1 and f68r show the Sun over the Moon and then the Moon over the
Sun
  (Solar dominant over Lunar and Lunar dominant over Solar)

* f66r is the first ``alchemical'' folio after the simple ``herbal''
material
  at the beginning of the MS. This folio shows a recumbent female
figure.
  By itself, this could mean almost anything. But the following folios
  have alchemical images, so it is tempting to also interpret this as
  an alchemical image, the female/lunar principle about to be
transformed
  by the process which is described in the following folios.

* A four-fold division of the cosmos is a recurring theme in the VMS,
  and also in alchemical texts. See for example f67v2 and f85-86r2.

* Plants with faces occur in alchemical MSS (e.g. the Rosarium
Philosphorum
  refered to by Rene), and also in the VMS.

*  f82v shows what appears to be a rainbow (It's a pity that I havn't
   got a color reproduction of this ---- it would be useful to check the
   colours!)

Then there's the dragon (f25v), the serpents (f49r) ...

There are probably many others that I've left out.

The image that should be there (if the alchemical interpretation is
correct),
but which seems to be missing is the union of the male and female
principle.
So maybe it all means something completly different.

Mike

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 05:36:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: Dennis Stallings <denstall@tyrell.net>
Cc: Michael Roe <Michael.Roe@cl.cam.ac.uk>,
        "R. Zandbergen x2236 A128 logica/fcsd/oad"
<rzandber@esoc.esa.de>,
        voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Sunflower revisited (longish)


On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Dennis Stallings wrote:

> 	I tried to learn something about alchemy and threw up my hands up
> in frustration.  I'm a chemical engineer, and yet I often cannot figure
> out exactly what chemical reaction an alchemical text is talking about.

This may be old hat to you, but you may find Richard Newman's recent
_Gehennical Fire_ useful (and also of course its bibliography as a
pointer
to other works on the same line).

R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)


Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 16:46:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <C1256404:002CA4AD.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
	(rzandber@esoc.esa.de)
Subject: Re: Levitov, heretics, catholics


   My previously announced silly idea: in the centre circle of
   the mega-foldout on ff.85-86 there are some objects (reportedly
   six but they are too vague to make out) that could be pharmaceutical
   jars like the ones in the pharma pages, but to me they look
   quite like the images of minarets in old Arabic manuscripts.
   The centre circle could represent the Arab world, or Mecca.
   The other circles could represent other parts of the world
   or the Universe in a more abstract sense (Earth, Fire, the lot).
   In fact I like Greece or Italy for the top right circle. If has
   a castle not unlike Rhodos or Patmos, but a tower that
   more resembles the Veneto style. Some Greek(?) houses,
   a volcano (when was Santorini first identified as a remnant
   of an eruption? I have a feeling that it was much later).
   Maybe this represents.....  Atlantis :-)
   No, strike that last one.

Good eye, and I think close but not quite. *My* previously announced
idea is that this represents the old alchemic notion of how the four
elements earth, air, fire, and water are created from the qualities
wet, dry, hot, and cold. The circle in the upper right with the T-O
map and little castle would be earth. The structure is then something
like this:
         dry
fire O -- O -- O earth
     |\   |   /|
     | \  |  / |
     |  \ | /  |
hot  O--- O -- O  cold
     |  / | \  |
     | /  |  \ |
     |/   |   \|
air  O -- O -- O water
         wet



*********************************************************************
******************* BALNEOLOGICAL (BATH) DRAWINGS  ******************
______________________________________________________________________
From: reeds@research.att.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 21:31 EST
To: <@proxy.research.att.com:voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Weird King Wenceslaus


While browsing thru' my wife's Thorndyke (History of Magic and
Experimental Science, 1923-1958, Columbia U. Press, in a zillion
volumes) vol III, page 590, I saw this passage:
	
	That Wenceslaus or Wenzel, Holy Roman emperor from 1378
	to 1400, and king of Bohemia until 1419, was among the
	number of rulers devoted to astrology is indicated by a finely
	illustrated manuscript preserved in the national library at
	Vienna.[ Vienna 2351 (Philos. 201), 14th century.]   It
	bears the dates, 1392 and 1393; has an illuminated initial W
	with a man in stocks in it; and the pictures of tubs and
	bathing girls which characterize Wenzel's Bible and other 
	manuscripts.  It was accordingly described as adorned with 
	pictures commemorating the imprisonment of Wenzel and his
	liberation by aid of the bath keeper Susanna, but this...

Tubs and bathing girls, h'm?  Does anyone know what these Wenceslausian
balneological illustrations actually look like?  Are there modern
reproductions of (say) Wenzel's Bible?  Did Vienna 2351 survive the war?


Jim Reeds

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 10:11:17 EWT
From: Rene Zandbergen <RZANDBER@VMPROFS.ESOC.ESA.DE>
Subject: Re: Weird King Wenceslaus
To: Voynich list <voynich@RAND.ORG>

If I read Jim's note correctly, this Ms. Vienna 2351
is not the same as the Wenceslaus Bible, but BOTH have
tubs and bathing girls. It even says

  .. which characterize Wenzel's Bible and other manuscripts..

so there are even more. I am assuming here that these other
manuscript are still Wenzel's (which is ambiguous above).

I did what I usually do in a case like this: search the Web.
(I guess I am not the only one :-))
So there seems to be a picture in Princeton, but
access to it is not allowed. It can be found via
  http://www.princeton.edu/~medieval/mappamundi/med201/med201syl.html
under section 3.

Anybody from Princeton in our group? Anybody know anybody?

Jim, your friend Sergio Toresella (sp?) mentioned that he had
seen similarities to the 'balneological section' in Italian
manuscripts. Maybe this is not so uncommon after all?

<snip>

From: reeds@research.att.com
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 20:35 EST
To: <@proxy.research.att.com:voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Voynich discourse (long & weighty)

Rene Zandbergen writes (about Reeds on Thorndyke on Wenzel):

> If I read Jim's note correctly, this Ms. Vienna 2351
> is not the same as the Wenceslaus Bible, but BOTH have
> tubs and bathing girls. It even says
> 
>   .. which characterize Wenzel's Bible and other manuscripts..
> 
> so there are even more. I am assuming here that these other
> manuscript are still Wenzel's (which is ambiguous above).

Yes.  That's how I read it, too.  Wenzel was keen on astrology
and nutty about bathtubs, it seems.  

I know someone at Princeton, & will ask her if she can get a copy of
the Wenzel bible pictures that Rene mentioned.

> Jim, your friend Sergio Toresella (sp?) mentioned that he had
> seen similarities to the 'balneological section' in Italian
> manuscripts. Maybe this is not so uncommon after all?

Toresella is thinking of some late 1400's books describing the public
thermal baths of Italy.   This sub-genre of topographical book has,
typically, sections describing the special medicinal properties of 
the waters in each of several towns.  Each section might have an
illustration
showing what the baths were like.  The page layout and the architecture
is similar to what we see in the VMS.  

<snip>


*********************************************************************
******************* TORESELLA - ALCHEMICAL HERBALS ******************
______________________________________________________________________
From: reeds@research.att.com
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 18:10 EST
To: "@proxy.research.att.com":voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich observations

I just spent a couple of hours with my friend Sergio Toresella, an
expert on manuscript herbals visiting this country from Italy.
He has been making a tour of American libraries and while at the 
Beinecke spent a little time with the VMS.  He knows about my interest,
and about our group.  Here is a sketch of some of his comments
about the VMS:

The VMS is, with certainty, authentic; not a fake.  It was manufactured
in the period 1450-1460.  It was in France for a while: the month names
on the zodiac diagrams are in French in a French handwriting.  The book
itself comes from Italy; the mysterious writing is done in a round 
humanistic style found only in Italy in the second half of the 1400's.
There are similarities between the organization of the VMS (including 
the balneological section!) and that of other Italian herbals of the
1400s.
(He has a lot more to say on this account.)  The author of the VMS was a
madman, obsessed by sex.

He plans to write up his observations in a paper, possibly with help
from 
me.

Jim Reeds

From: reeds@research.att.com
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 20:35 EST
To: <@proxy.research.att.com:voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Voynich discourse (long & weighty)

<snip>
Rene Zandbergen writes

> Something else: I have seen my first herbal this weekend. It
> is from after 1600 and printed. Quite different from the VMs
> (very nice drawings). It is an enormous volume by Dodoens
...
> Some pictures were less detailed, and I got the impression the
> writer had not seen the plant himself. ....

I refer you to Karen Reeds, *Botany in Medieval and Renaissance
Universities*, Garland Press, 1991, for a discussion of exactly this 
point!  As with most 16th century herbals, the pictures are not a sure
guide to the author's knowledge of the plants themselves.  That's
because
the publishers copied  or borrowed or stole the woodcuts of plants
in other herbals.  In Dodoneus's case at least some of the cuts were
copied from illustrations in Leonhard Fuchs's herbals.  You have to read
the text carefully in conjunction with the illustrations to judge how
well
the author knew the plants.

> ...it may be possible to find classes or groups of plants
> in other herbals which are definitely not in the VMs. That
> could tell us something too. Has this been done (and documented)
> already? ...

Not as far as I know, not precisely.  It is tremendously difficult to 
learn anything from the pictures in medieval herbals.  There is debate
among the herbalologists about the actual utility of the pictures.  
John Riddle, Sergio Toresella, and my wife (whom I take to be the heavy
hitters in the field) all have somewhat different takes.  My impression
is that you sometimes have to regard the whole thing as a specialized
kind of iconography: just as we can study the relationship between 
different pictures of St Jerome (say) in medieval painting, and can form
an impression of what he looks like (large square forehead, balding,
red hat, accompanied by a pet lion) while knowing that the actual person
might have looked completely different, so we study the plant pictures
in
herbals, noting similarities between the pictures (which sometimes
agree with the written text, and sometimes not) even though the actual
plant might look quite different.

My wife thinks the plants are phantasmagorical.

Karen had the idea that the sequence of pictures in the VMS might be 
related to the sequence of pictures in some ordinary herbal, which
we might be able to identify.  This struck us both as a thin reed.

When I confronted her just now with the contradiction between these 2
ideas she said, "Show me another list of phantasmagorical plants and
..."

<snip>

---------------------------------------------------------------

84.Toresella, Sergio. ``Gli erbari degli alchimisti.'' In Arte 
farmaceuticae e piante medicinali --erbari, vasi, strumenti e 
testi dalle raccolte liguri, Liana Saginati, ed. Pisa: Pacini Editore,
1996, pp.31-70. [Profusely illustrated. Fits the VMS into 
an ``alchemical herbal'' tradition.] 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:02:18 GMT
From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de (R. Zandbergen x2236 A128 logica/fcsd/oad)
To: denstall@tyrell.net
Subject: Re: Plant drawings
Cc: voynich@rand.org

Hi!

Dennis Stallings writes:

> 	D'Imperio pointed out that medieval herbalists did not draw
> plants from real life, but copied manuscripts of herbals by classical
> authors that had already been recopied for hundreds of years.  In
> the process, the drawings degenerated to the point that they no longer
> represented anything real.  She also speculated that the (putatively
> unreal) plant drawings in the VMs might have symbolic meaning.

Indeed. She also pointed out that the VMs plants are not like anything
in any of those herbals either. I must admit that the few copies
of drawings I have seen from M.E. herbals are mostly very representative
of the plant in question. These may have been from a somewhat later date
though. There is a hand-written note on f17r referring to the herbal
of Mattioli. From this I have a copy of one plant drawing which is a
nice clear drawing of an existing plant. This may not be a
representative sample :-). Brumbaugh apparently has looked
through Mattioli's herbal and claims that one half of one
plant in the entire VMs is also a copy of one in Mattioli (if my memory
is correct). I was somewhat disappointed that the Hessische
Landesbibliothek
does not seem to have a copy of it (at least it is not in the
catalogue).
The herbal was first printed in Frankfurt (a stone's throw away from
here
and definitely in Hessen)!

> 	In this connection, I was very much intrigued by a post Jim Reeds
> made a while back (also because I think, as did D'Imperio, that alchemy
> may be important in understanding the VMs):
>
> (Ref. to S.Toresella's article, with minor typos preserved :-) )
>
> 	Perhaps Jim could give us a synopsis?

My 'contact' in one of Italy's premier unversities (Padova) did not
find it in their library, and I am also quite eager to read the
article. Would Jim mind if we contact Sergio Toresella directly?

Cheers, Rene

From: reeds@research.att.com
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 08:26 EDT
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Voynich interjections

Dear All,

<snip>

I passed a copy of a recent post by Rene Zandbergen to my wife the
historian of Renaissance botany.  She will ask Toresella if he minds
letting his address out, & comment on such topics as quality of pictures
in medieval herbals, on Mattiolus, etc.  Let me just comment a little
bit
on these matters, too:  all of D'Imperio's knowledge of herbals probably
comes
from Agnes Arber's book.  You can form your own impression of the
accuracy
of the plant illustrations in manuscript herbals by looking at Raphael
and
Blunt.  My wife's thesis has a long discussion of the illustrations of
Schlangenwurzel aka Dracontea in early printed herbals, which has since
become a topos in the historiography of scientific illustration (see J.
Murdoch's picture book for an example).

My Italian is the evanescent ghost of a quantity which was never there,
so I
cannot really summarize Toresella's long article on "Alchemical
Herbals".
The 2 plates in Raphael & Blunt (on pp 94 & 95 in my edition, of
Bayersche
Staatsbib. Munich, Cod.icon.(bot.)26, a few pages after B&R's VMS pages)
seem to be from an example of such herbals.  The illustrations Toresella
gives do show "punning" or "rebus" plant pictures (with dragons, lions,
etc, incorporated into pictures of plants like Dracontea or Dandelion,
etc)
but neither the usual symbolic alchemical images (green lions,
androgynes,
pelicans, etc) nor "operative" alchemical images (furnaces, retorts,
etc.)
In fact, I do not really know why he calls this distinct sub genre of
manuscript herbals "alchemical", but it is clear that there is a
stylistic
unity among such MSS.  Sergio says that the fashion died out by about
1500,
and soon became inexplicable.


Jim Reeds


Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:17:01 GMT
From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de (R. Zandbergen x2236 A128 logica/fcsd/oad)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Plant names and folios
Cc: rzandber@mail-gw.esoc.esa.de

Dear all,

I have now read a copy of the article by Sergio Toresella.
My impression (not a review, for which I would not be qualified):

Just translating it won't do: it has lots of very interesting
illustrations, all from other manuscript herbals. There are
three images from the Voynich, and these IMHO are among the better
drawn plants in the many illustrations of this article! Many
others are even more schematic or imaginary, with heads and
animals in the roots all over.

The idea of the article is that alchemists had their own
style of herbals, different from all Dioscurides derivatives
and other 'traditionals'.
They were more symbolic and many parallels between them
can be shown, but not with the Voynich (which the author
includes in the genre). This still seems to be unique (even when
not looking at the script). Not so much is it a problem that the Voynich
plants are 'abstract', but that they are truly original. They can't
be traced to any other herbal, 'traditional' or 'alchemist'.
By the way: the main purpose of the alchemist's herbal was to
carry them around to impress the ignorant people. There the
Voynich seems to fit in.

A further point of interest is that all these alchemist herbals
were produced in Northern Italy, in an area including Venice,
mainly in the 15th century (he guesses 1460-1480 for the Voynich)
but also in the 16th. This seems to make the route of the Voynich
through Dee/Kelly to Prague somewhat less likely (but not impossible).
Now Giordano Bruno as the carrier of the Voynich is another
possibility: his road from Rome to Prague was via N.Italy (1576-
1579), S.France, Britain (1583, no record of Dee/Kelly also meeting
Bruno) to Prague (1588). Pure speculation and
I am sure there are plenty of other candidates.

I have learned a lot from the article, including that I still
know too little.
Oh yes, in a footnote the article mentions the activities of
the internet mailing list, very kind.

Cheers, Rene

From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:01:52 +0200
Subject: Re: introducing myself

<snip>

It is hard to be general about accepting specialists' opinion,
and it should really take another specialist to refute
the opinion of one. Now I'm not a specialist in any field related to
the VMs (Manuscripts, herbals, linguistics, cryptology) so I'm
rather stuck. But we do have conflicting specialist opinions:
E.Panofsky, expert in German Renaissance, placed it around 1470
or not much later, as a German product. S.Toresella also placed it
in that time frame, but put the origin in N.Italy (his area of
specialisation). 

<snip>

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:10:59 +0200
From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Toresella

Hello Bruce and all,

>> Conversely, Toresella's theory about the VMs would
>> also explain its uniqueness and its size.

> I must have been dozing, Rene ...  What is Toresella's theory?

To cut a long (and interesting) story short, his theory is that the
Voynich Manuscript was produced by (or for) a travelling alchemist,
or quack who needed a reputation of being very wise and powerful in
order to attract 'clients' and thus have a good income. Such
people would carry with them books of great learning, where
plant illustrations play a big role. Toresella in his article discusses
many such herbals, which have plants with apparently fantastic
powers. None of these may be immediately be compared with the
VMs, but he proposes that such a mysterious book as the VMs
would give its owner an immediate reputation.
To cut the story even shorter: it was written to deceive, not one
rich emperor but a multitude of common people. Its contents are
meaningless.

Cheers, Rene


*********************************************************************
*******************    THE SCRIPT IN GENERAL       ******************
______________________________________________________________________

    "It is my feeling that we need not look beyond the system of Latin 
abbreviations, familiar to all learned men of the Middle Ages and 
Renaissance throughout Europe, combined with early forms of Arabic 
numerals and some common alchemical and astrological symbols, to find 
the inspiration for the design of the Voynich script."  

    - D'Imperio, *The VMs: an Elegant Enigma,* , p. 24. 

    NOTA BENE:  This would seem to rule out an *origin* in Cyrillic, 
Glagolithic, Greek, Hebrew, or Arabic script, although not *influences* 
from these.


*********************************************************************
******************* TRANDECHINO - RENAISSANCE CIPHERS ***************
______________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:22:45 -0500
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich-like cipher symbols

This Christmas I had a chance to see a very elegant reproduction of a
manuscript in Vienna containing several hundred different cipher keys
from the late 1400's.  This MS was written in exactly the time period
and general location Toresella placed the composition of the VMS (based
on the general appearance of VMS handwriting).  Many of the cipher keys
use made-up symbols, many of which look vaguely Voynichese.

The executive summary:  such symbols were in the "air" in at that time,
and no theory of Aztec influence need be invoked to account for their
presence in a late 15th century Northern Italian production.

The MS is "Codex Vindobonensis 2398", which is a 500 Schilling way of
saying "Vienna MS 2398".  The book I saw was vol. 22 in series "Codices
Selecti / Phototypice Impressi"  published in 1970 by "Akademische druck
-u.  Verlagsanstalt" of Graz, Austria.  Its title is "Francesco
Tranchedino /
Diplomatische Geheimschriften / Codex Vindobonensis 2398 / Der
Oesterreichischen Nationalbibliothek / Faksimilieausgabe / Einfuehrung
Walter Hoeflechner "

The introduction is very long & interesting, but I had only a short
time to look at it.  The MS itself has 169 folios (all very clearly
reproduced), with about 300 cipher keys, one per page.  "Der Hauptteil
des cvp 2389, das eigentliche Chiffrenprotokoll, enthaelt 297
vollstaendige
Schluessel aus der Cancelleria segreta..." The compiler (Tranchedino)
was
a cryppie in the Sforza chancery in Milan in the late 1400's.  Each
cipher
key lists 1, 2, or 3 cipher equivalents for each of the alphabet
letters,
a list of maybe 4 or 6 nulls (symbols without meaning, thrown into the
cryptogram to amuse the opponents), cipher equivalents for doubled
letters,
and in some cases, cipher equivalents for as many as 50 or so words and
proper names.

The designer of the cipher symbols seems to have had fun.  Each one has
a kind of thematic unity: all the symbols are Arabic numbers, or all
the symbols are letters and pairs of letters, or are all Voynich- or
Capelli-like pothooks, or are all alchemical and astrological, or are
all Greek letters, in every case occurring in all kinds of ligatured and
pot-hook encrusted variants.

--

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:29:29 -0500
From: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers, but it has wandered...Voynich

I don't know what it has to do with Navajo (or is it ho?), but Dennis 
mentioned my post about Tranchedino's collection of Milanese cipher 
alphabets from the late 1400s. Since then Rene Z has looked at a copy 
of the same facsimile I saw. He was disappointed that there were no 
'gallows' letters, and concluded (I think) that Tranchedino was not 
the author of the VMS. All I had claimed was that many of the cipher 
symbols looked "vaguely Voynichese." My point was that fanciful cipher 
alphabets were in common use in the 15th century. Kahn's book shows 
some others from the 16th century on pp. 115, 120, 123, and 139 (in 
the 1st edition of his book). 

<snip>
--------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:52:51 +0200
From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Code-talkers, but it has wandered...Voynich

Dear all,

Jim  Reeds wrote:
> .... Dennis mentioned my post about Tranchedino's collection
> of Milanese cipher alphabets from the late 1400s. Since
> then Rene Z has looked at a copy of the same facsimile I saw.
> He was disappointed that there were no 'gallows' letters,
> and concluded (I think) that Tranchedino was not the author
> of the VMS.
Yes, though not on the basis of the absence of gallows-
lookalikes. And in fact it seems unlikely any professional
cryptographer would have written the VMs
> All I had claimed was that many of the cipher symbols
> looked "vaguely Voynichese."
I realised that and fully agree. Even down to such special
things as Currier 'S', the i-shaped variant of Currier-S,
'SO' ligatures, picnic tables, and things like the
'chinese hat in corner', looking more like the mirror
image of Arabic 'k'.

> My point was that fanciful cipher alphabets were in common
> use in the 15th century.
... and references in the introduction to ciphers in the
early 15th C, Tranchedino being late 15C.

<snip>

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 18 11:26:05 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9704181111.ZM3958@research.att.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:11:02 -0400
In-Reply-To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
        "Re: VMs Historical Precedents (long)" (Apr 18, 16:29)
References: <C125647D.004E89A6.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs Historical Precedents (long)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Apr 18, 16:29, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> Subject: Re: VMs Historical Precedents (long)
> 
...
> Dennis' long and IMHO useful post reminds me of a question
> that has gone unanswered before, but I'll try again anyway :-)
> 
> How truly unique are the VMs images really? Having amused
> myself looking up as many images from medieval (and later)
> scientific treatises, I found quickly that parallels are not
> lacking. But how close would they have to be in order to
> warrant deeper investigation?
> 
> A few weeks ago I found an image in a MS from the 1430's
> (in an article, I did not see the original :-) ), that has the
> same plant as the VMs. Is that a discovery of some
> interest, or is it just yet another one of many? Or perhaps,
> statistically it could be unlikely that no single drawing
> matches any single other drawing in the ME corpus?

Did you post this to the list, Rene?  What VMS page, what article
did you see, what 1430's MS?  How can we judge "same plant" unless
we get more precise bibliographic information from you.

> 
...
> In fact, is the picture on f17r really from Mattioli's herbal?

I will ask my resident Mattiolus expert, but she is finding my VMS
questions a bit tedious, and is getting slower & slower to answer
such questions.

> I can't say that I can read his name on that page anyway,
> for that matter.....

Me neither...

On the same general topic:  there is a recent multivolume "encyclopedia"
of scientific illustration, published by (I think) Harvard University Press,
edited by I. B. Cohen, the great Newton scholar.  The Medieval science
volume was done by John Murdoch, and contains a wealth of examples of
medieval scientific (understood in a rather wide sense) diagrams.  It 
attempts to give a survey of all types of scientific and medical illustrations
of the period. I don't have the exact title or ISBN handy; the book is sure to 
still be in print.  It is well worth looking at.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997: 
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 18 13:08:02 1997
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To: Rene Zandbergen <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: VMs plant drawings elsewhere
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:58:30 +0100 ( + )
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       From Denis V Mardle          18 April 1997

Rene       you wrote
<<<<
A few weeks ago I found an image in a MS from the 1430's
(in an article, I did not see the original :-) ), that has the
same plant as the VMs. Is that a discovery of some
interest, or is it just yet another one of many? Or perhaps,
statistically it could be unlikely that no single drawing
matches any single other drawing in the ME corpus?
             >>>>>

 Which VMs folio agrees with which 1430's image ?
It sounds like a very interesting discovery ( and what
is the plant name ? ).
  Yesterday afternoon I spent about half an hour
looking at a section of the Biebecke's pre-1600
Manuscripts, especially descriptions of the Osborn
Collection.   They are a very interesting and
fascinating  mixed bag.   One on Astrology, herbs
etc could be particularly relevant.  It is Osborn MS fa.7
The bequest made in 1976 is such a mixed bag I
intend to download the descriptions at the weekend and
study them at my leisure.

 Some time back I asked if anyone could say what text
is given by the word lengths    2  2  2  3  2  2  4  2  3  8
Rather to my surprise no one has given me an answer
which is    TO  BE  OR  NOT  TO  BE  THAT  IS  THE
  QUESTION ,but I did do Hamlet at School ( a long
time ago ).

 On a final subject - I am going to disagree with Rayman
on  ASKAM being in f93r.  Even if the rest were correct
, which I doubt,  I see no statistical evidence for this
particular name as against any other one of 5 letters
 Anyway the odds must be heavily against this particular
name turning up on one of the 2 folios that Dr. Strong
analysed.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 18 14:02:02 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich administrivia
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Status: OR

Summary of opinions on accepting lists from people off the list:

1. No problem.  Revisit if we start getting spammed big-time.
2. Sorry I sent the message -- but please tell the list that NSA also
   has lots of VMs related stuff that could be obtained via FOIA.
3. Prefer moderated list with somebody eliminating off-topic posts.
4. Restrict to member-posting only; bots are getting smarter.  No
   moderation.
5. Didn't you do some research on the Beale Cipher?
6. Prefer to allow postings from people off the list.

In the absence of a clear consensus I'll leave everything as-is and
revisit the issue if we run into severe annoyance later.

On #5 -- yes, I wrote a paper for Cryptologia 4,2 (Apr 1980) called
"The Beale Ciphers: A Dissenting Opinion", where I reported discovering
long alphabetic strings in the first cipher if it's decrypted with the
key to the second.  I argued that this strongly suggests a hoax.  The
results are summarized in Dorothy Denning's "Cryptography and Data
Security".  These are now called "Gillogly strings" by the Beale
aficionados.

And yes, it's off-topic even when <I> talk about it. :)

	Jim

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 18 20:53:06 1997
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:43:06 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Apogee used in the Voynich
To: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
> To: madimi@internetmci.com
> Subject: Re: Apogee used in the Voynich
> Date: Thursday, April 17, 1997 8:27 PM
> 
> 
> While I remain skeptical of Strong's results, it was not I who suggested
> that 'apogee' was anachronistic.
> 
> Karl


I stand corrected, and thank you for pointing that out.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 18 21:35:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:29:33 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Zodiac Pages
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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I have been much perplexed by the lack of correlation between the zodiac
pages and known star names, and I was wondering if this line of thought
could help any.

Below is a transcription of one of the title pages from the works of
Anthony Ascham (yes, the least favored horse running in this race to
date.):  

      "A treatyse of the state and disposition of the    
     worlde, with the alteracions and changings thereof    
     through the great concientions of the III hyest    
     planetes, called Maxima, Maior Media, and Minor,    
     declarynge the very tyme, the day, hure and minute that    
     God created the sonne, moone, and sterres and the    
     places where they were fyrst set in the heavens, and    
     the beginning of their movynges, and so contynued to    
     this day whereby the world hathe receyved influence as    
     shal be declared by example from the Creation vnto this    
     present yere, and also to the yeare of our Lord    
     MDLVIII..."    


What throws me here is that I can find no reference anywhere else to
Maxima, Maior Media, or to Minor in astrological texts.  The concept that
they are the highest planets in any permanent sense is also new to me, and
I am probably looking in the wrong place when I try to find references.  Is
anyone on the list qualified enough in medieval astrology to provide an
explanation for these concepts, and if so, does this astrological view also
contain alternate names for the planets and the common stars?

Perhaps enlightenment on this peculiar title page may shed some light on
the zodiac problem, and if not, it will certainly enlighten me!!!


Regards,  Rayman
      

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 19 10:29:02 1997
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        From Denis V Mardle         19 April 1997

  Rayman  you comment re Anthony Ascham and the outer planets
<<<<<
What throws me here is that I can find no reference anywhere else to
Maxima, Maior Media, or to Minor in astrological texts.  The concept that
they are the highest planets in any permanent sense is also new to me, and
I am probably looking in the wrong place when I try to find references.  Is
anyone on the list qualified enough in medieval astrology to provide an
explanation for these concepts, and if so, does this astrological view also
contain alternate names for the planets and the common stars?

Perhaps enlightenment on this peculiar title page may shed some light on
the zodiac problem, and if not, it will certainly enlighten me!!!


Regards,  Rayman
      >>>>>>>>

  I don't know much about medieval astrology but herbals are full of influences
from the sun, moon and planets with I thought their normal names.
More important is my recent thought than the weird f67v2, also in
Newbold and Kent, shows rare conjunctions of Mars, Jupiter and
Saturn in two of the corners plus Venus also in the other two.  The
idea is that the appoximate close positions are a true representation
for four approximate dates.  I need to go back to my Archimedes
and run the Clares program Nightsky to identify possible dates and
configurations.     I have since read Mary D'Imperio on page 18
where she says  " The only interpretation that suggests itself for these 
geometric figures is that of crucial conjunctions of planets, or magical
'star figures' associated with the four seasons,directions,winds,ages
of man,  ......"     This could well help in dating the document.

  In fact I am wondering if the Zodiac ( Calender ) pages are more to do
with preparing for sowing and harvesting of herbs, hence the overlap
of labels.  This could also tie-in with the harvesting of the thaw as
suggested earlier. As M D'I points out the animals at the centres of
the Zodiac pages all seem happy munching away on food, not
depicting good or bad days.  The complicated numerology of the 13 
folios  f67r1 to f70r2 plus the sun and moon associations could
also be connectef with sowing and harvesting

Definitely food for thought !

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 19 10:29:03 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: f17r and Mattioli
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    From Denis V Mardle          19 April 1997

Rene comments
<<<
How truly unique are the VMs images really? Having amused
myself looking up as many images from medieval (and later)
scientific treatises, I found quickly that parallels are not
lacking. But how close would they have to be in order to
warrant deeper investigation?

A few weeks ago I found an image in a MS from the 1430's
(in an article, I did not see the original :-) ), that has the
same plant as the VMs. Is that a discovery of some
interest, or is it just yet another one of many? Or perhaps,
statistically it could be unlikely that no single drawing
matches any single other drawing in the ME corpus?

Everybody who has any idea: please speak up. What is
the closest match found so far??
In fact, is the picture on f17r really from Mattioli's herbal?
I can't say that I can read his name on that page anyway,
for that matter.....

Still curious, Rene
         >>>>>>>

And Jim Reeds says
<<<
> In fact, is the picture on f17r really from Mattioli's herbal?...
> I can't say that I can read his name on that page anyway,
> for that matter.....

Me neither...
           >>>>>>

 My copy of f17r blown up from the British Museum microfilm
( Jim Gillogly should have it also ) is slightly better than
Petersen's at the beginning, less so at the end for the
writing at the top edge of the folio.  The writjng,although
smaller, looks not unlike that on f116v.   The first word
starts m the next could be a but agrees with the first
letter of the second word.  We then get the right hand
side of Voynich ( Currier P ) almost repeated and then
i o i with a faint dot to the right.  Curiously the second
word in total is like the first without the m and the first i
 The whole phrase needs looking at by anexpert which
I am very clearly not.   Perhaps Phil Neal could look at
f17r and f116v etc in the BM if he has time, and it is
still there.  I still have my microfilm copy

      Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 19 10:47:02 1997
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Dear all,

both Jim Reeds:

> Did you post this to the list, Rene?  What VMS page, what article
> did you see, what 1430's MS?  How can we judge "same plant" unless
> we get more precise bibliographic information from you.

and Denis Mardle:

> Which VMs folio agrees with which 1430's image ?
> ( and what is the plant name ? ).

showed an interest in the plant picture similar to a VMs image.
I did not mention it before, and I admit that I am
being deliberately vague, but I want to find out a bit
more about the Ms in question first.
The image in the other Ms is phantasmagorical. If
anything, the plant could be 'Lunaria'.  This is
an image of the usual androgyn accompanied by a 'Sun'
and 'Moon' plant. This time, the moon plant does not
have the usual shape, but looks like one from the VMs.
I can't check the folio number here but it is one that has
two plants, the left one with a root like a snake
and the right one with moon-shaped leaves or petals.
(Note that the androgyn also holds a cup with some snakes,
but I don't want to read too much into that).
The Sun plant does not look too much like the left
one on this VMs page though.

I don't know how to describe the image better.
Since I get the impression there is a chance that
this image is closer to a VMS image than anything
else before, I'll think of a way to get some
limited distribution for "evaluation".
Gabriel has seen a copy and he is welcome to
comment (it could well be that I am overestimating
the similarity :-) )

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 19 15:32:02 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
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  From Denis V Mardle               19 April 1997  

  I have noted Mary D'Imperio's suggestion that the f17r
top of folio chacters look like Greek and her comment about
Dr. John Dee hiding English using Greek letters in his private
diary,  also the Beinecke notes on the folio numbers being in
John Dee's hand, apparently.  Further the f116v and f17r
writing is more similar than I thought for two versions of L
I conclude that f17r extraneous writing starts  mallioi alloi

 Does this oi or ioi ending occur other than in Greek ?
I think Dee wrote all three items mentioned above and
may have hidden English in the texts eg mi from f17r start.

 I'm plumping for an Ms date of 1460-1510 from all the
historical evidence.

 Comments ?                   Denis

From reeds Sat Apr 19 16:57:18 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9704191657.ZM10900@research.att.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:57:18 -0400
In-Reply-To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
        "f17r and Mattioli" (Apr 19, 15:27)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: f17r and Mattioli
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I have been going back over old email and so on, and am really puzzled by
some letters of Rene.  Here are some snippets, taken out of context:

On 2 Jul 1996:

> ...  Marci's predecessor, and whoever owned the VMs
> before that, are good candidates for having owned a copy of Mattioli's
> herbal, which seems to be mentioned on f17r.

On 10 July 1996:

> There is a hand-written note on f17r referring to the herbal
> of Mattioli. 

and most recently, on 18 April 1997:

> In fact, is the picture on f17r really from Mattioli's herbal?

My question is:  why are we talking about Mattioli?  Where did this idea
connecting him to f17r come from?  There is no other mention of him in my
collection of email correspondence. He is not in Brumbaugh's index or in 
D'Imperio's index.

There is a passage on p.128 of Brumbaugh's book:  "And on folio 17r, 
some owner has noted at the top that part of the plant drawing seems to
come from the herbal of Matthew Lobelius, published in 1570."  But of
course Mathias de l'Obel, also known as de Lobel or Lobelius (1538-1616),
is not the same person as Pierandrea Mattioli, also known as Matthiolus
(1501-1577).




-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997: 
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 433 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 19 22:23:02 1997
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Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:16:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs Historical Precedents (long)
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On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> The image in the other Ms is phantasmagorical. If
> anything, the plant could be 'Lunaria'.  This is
> an image of the usual androgyn accompanied by a 'Sun'
> and 'Moon' plant. This time, the moon plant does not
> have the usual shape, but looks like one from the VMs.
> I can't check the folio number here but it is one that has
> two plants, the left one with a root like a snake
> and the right one with moon-shaped leaves or petals.
> (Note that the androgyn also holds a cup with some snakes,
> but I don't want to read too much into that).
> The Sun plant does not look too much like the left
> one on this VMs page though.
> 
> I don't know how to describe the image better.
> Since I get the impression there is a chance that
> this image is closer to a VMS image than anything
> else before, I'll think of a way to get some
> limited distribution for "evaluation".
> Gabriel has seen a copy and he is welcome to
> comment (it could well be that I am overestimating
> the similarity :-) )


	This sounds a lot like D'Imperio's Figure 36.  She shows two
images from Elias Ashmole's Theatrum Chemicum Britaniccum and says they
look more like the VMs than anything she'd seen.  One is the herb Lunaria,
the other an odd combination she says is a symbolic representation of an
alchemical operation.  The odd combination has two human figures flanked
by two dragons and surmounted by solar, lunar, and divine figures.  She
says both are labeled as "anonymi".  See her p. 61 for a discussion and
her p. 114 for the description.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 21 02:26:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:14:14 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Re Zodiac Pages
To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>   Rayman  you comment re Anthony Ascham and the outer planets
> <<<<<
> What throws me here is that I can find no reference anywhere else to
> Maxima, Maior Media, or to Minor in astrological texts.  The concept that
> they are the highest planets in any permanent sense is also new to me,
and
> I am probably looking in the wrong place when I try to find references. 
Is
> anyone on the list qualified enough in medieval astrology to provide an
> explanation for these concepts, and if so, does this astrological view
also
> contain alternate names for the planets and the common stars?
> 
> Perhaps enlightenment on this peculiar title page may shed some light on
> the zodiac problem, and if not, it will certainly enlighten me!!!
> 
> Regards,  Rayman
>       >>>>>>>>
> 
>   I don't know much about medieval astrology but herbals are full of
influences
> from the sun, moon and planets with I thought their normal names.
> More important is my recent thought than the weird f67v2, also in
> Newbold and Kent, shows rare conjunctions of Mars, Jupiter and
> Saturn in two of the corners plus Venus also in the other two.  The
> idea is that the appoximate close positions are a true representation
> for four approximate dates.  I need to go back to my Archimedes
> and run the Clares program Nightsky to identify possible dates and
> configurations.     I have since read Mary D'Imperio on page 18
> where she says  " The only interpretation that suggests itself for these 
> geometric figures is that of crucial conjunctions of planets, or magical
> 'star figures' associated with the four seasons,directions,winds,ages
> of man,  ......"     This could well help in dating the document.

I would be extremely interested in your findings and anything that would
alter my view of the dating process of this manuscript.  I am also eager to
read your findings on folio 93r as I have not spent much time on it, except
to verify the beginning sequence.

>   In fact I am wondering if the Zodiac ( Calender ) pages are more to do
> with preparing for sowing and harvesting of herbs, hence the overlap
> of labels.  This could also tie-in with the harvesting of the thaw as
> suggested earlier. As M D'I points out the animals at the centres of
> the Zodiac pages all seem happy munching away on food, not
> depicting good or bad days.  The complicated numerology of the 13 
> folios  f67r1 to f70r2 plus the sun and moon associations could
> also be connectef with sowing and harvesting
> 
> Definitely food for thought !
> 
> Denis

I agree fully with your analysis of the zodiac pages, and have felt that
way myself for some time.  I think the Voynich astrological pages may also
include more than herbs and their sowing and harvesting, covering
information concerning the whole scope of human interaction with the
seasons, of which herbs and food crops are a small part.  Harvesting is not
just a medieval concept applied to plants, but to animals as well.  There
is a time to hunt and gather each animal and each good thing according to
the season, is there not?  All plants and animals have their time of
harvest.

I remind you of Anthony's title page concerning this subject, with full
admission that I have not yet recovered any text from the zodiac pages.  I
only remind you of this page as an example of the workings of the medieval
mind:
 
          "A prognossicacion and an almanack fastened together   
     acclaiming the Dispocission of the People and also of the  
     Wether, with certain Electyons and Tymes chosen both for  
     Phisike and Surgerye, and for the husbandman, and also for  
     Hawkekyng, Huntying, and for the Foulynge according to the  
     Science of Astronomy, made for the Yeare of our Lord God  
     M.D.L. for the Merydyan of Yorke.".    
    
Should the zodiac pages prove to be what we suspect, (mostly herbal),
Anthony serves as a good example of what we can expect in this line of
thought.  Barring his medical bent, we see that weather, husbandry,
hawking, hunting and fowling are the chief concerns, i.e., those crucial
elements for survival from one season to the next.  On the other hand, if
you are correct in assuming that these pages are strictly herbal in nature,
there would be no doubt that the manuscript was written by a medical
scholar.  Who else would have both the inclination and the education
required to write cipher pages on this subject alone?

Do you have a personal transcription of folio 1r?  I have viewed all
transcriptions to date and find that my pages from Bienecke cannot be
reconciled to the previous transcriptions available on the EVMT, and I
actually get lost somewhere within the first paragraph.  Everyone else
seems to have ends of lines that my pages do not represent, and it is very
important to me that I solve this problem.  Rene put me on this mission
many months ago, and I also believe many of the answers to be in the first
page, but I have been unable to reproduce it in my style.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 21 03:11:01 1997
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Dear all,

Jim is...

> puzzled by some letters of Rene.

I will try to find out where I read about the reference
to Mattioli. I certainly did not come up with the idea
myself :-). The first time I read his name it was
spelled Mattiolaus, I think, and it referred to f17r.
I did also see (much later) a reference in one of Brumbaugh's
papers, but I don't think it is the one quoted by Jim:

> ...  on p.128 of Brumbaugh's book:  "And on folio 17r,
> some owner has noted at the top that part of the plant drawing > seems to
come from the herbal of Matthew Lobelius, published in > 1570."  But of
course Mathias de l'Obel, also known as de Lobel > or Lobelius (1538-1616),
is not the same person as Pierandrea
> Mattioli, also known as Matthiolus (1501-1577).

This is going to be a good test for my recent reorganisation of my
Voynich file (pile is still a better description).

More later,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 21 04:50:05 1997
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Dear all,

Rayman asked:
> Is anyone on the list qualified enough in medieval astrology
> to provide an explanation for these concepts, and if so, does
> this astrological view also contain alternate names for the
> planets and the common stars?
>
As another non-expert (but I'm certainly very interested)
I would like to throw in some more star names. I had not heard
of Rayman's before.
These are given by Saxl ("Verzeichnis etc", p.98) as coming from
Codex Vind.2372, originally from the Netherlands.
Ato, beato, creator, delo, elo, felo, silo, radilo, ixo,
fixo, mixo, lixo, silexo, pelexo, allo, sallo, pallo, irallo,
(snip) oli, peroli, sipoli, ella, petalla, minella,
(snip) setelis, sibilis, enexis, fetexis, ledexis, ornis,
(snip) arib, erip, orip, vrip, eric, seric, leric, peric,

etc..
I think some were capitalised and others not.

Unfortunately, we cannot exclude that our zodiac and stars
pages contain similar lists of apparently imaginary star
names. The alphabeticity at the start is a clear indication
of these names being invented, I think.
Then Denis said:

> ... my recent thought than the weird f67v2, also in
> Newbold and Kent, shows rare conjunctions of Mars, Jupiter and
> Saturn in two of the corners plus Venus also in the other two.  The
> idea is that the appoximate close positions are a true representation
> for four approximate dates.

Are all four relevant for this picture, or did you find
four possibilities with varying dates? I'd be very interested
in hearing about any such dates. Of possible relevance for
the VMs is a set of historical conjuctions in Scorpio, in 1474,
and perhaps another set in 1524 in Pisces which was then believed
to announce a terrible deluge (because of the watery sign).

Then again Rayman:
> Do you have a personal transcription of folio 1r?  I have
> viewed all transcriptions to date and find that my pages from
> Bienecke cannot be reconciled to the previous transcriptions
> available on the EVMT, and I actually get lost somewhere within > the
first paragraph.

Are your lines shorter? I don't remember a problem comparing
the existing transcriptions with the Petersen trnascription...

> Rene put me on this mission many months ago, and I also
> believe many of the answers to be in the first page, but I
> have been unable to reproduce it in my style.

My suggestion (more it was not :-) ) was that a translation
of page 1 (f1r) would be a good test because a first page of
a MS should be recogniseable as such. Essentially,
if Levitov's method were to translate the first line as
'Incipit tractatus ...'  it would change things a bit :-)

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 21 05:11:01 1997
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Dennis writes:

 > This sounds a lot like D'Imperio's Figure 36

 Then my explanation wasn't very good I'm afraid.
 I have always been puzzled by these figures, because
 they are not all that similar to the VMs IMHO. Or she
 has not redrawn them very accurately....

> One is the herb Lunaria, the other an odd combination
> she says is a symbolic representation of an alchemical
> operation.

"My" image is not too odd. It is the trinitarian
hermaphrodite in a German alchemical Ms. An unbiased
expert dating of it is 1420-1460, by the way. The image
as a whole has nothing to do with the VMs.
The illustration of the 'herm' is also found in the
Rosarium Philosophorum, among others, which can be seen
on the Web.

All in all the similarity may well be accidental,
related to Panofski's remark about the similarity of
the Voynich style to the German 1460's. An early
print of Albumasar's 'Flores Astrologiae', also
German, has zodiac emblems more like the Voynich than
any other I've seen.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 21 05:02:01 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 21 Apr 97 at 10:34, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> Then again Rayman:
> > Do you have a personal transcription of folio 1r?  I have
> > viewed all transcriptions to date and find that my pages from
> > Bienecke cannot be reconciled to the previous transcriptions
> > available on the EVMT, and I actually get lost somewhere within > the
> first paragraph.
> 
> Are your lines shorter? I don't remember a problem comparing
> the existing transcriptions with the Petersen trnascription...

Perhaps Rayman is talking the way the "signatures" in the paragraphs 
of the first page were recorded in the previous transcriptions.
I think (I haven't checked) that in the interlinear file, the 
signatures were recorded as a new locus, that is an "end of paragraph 
before the signature and a new paragraph only with the "signature".
That would of course make the number of lines look wrong, but it is 
easy to solve.

 In the new transcription (which is not available yet, an will not be
until it is complete), we have used the {centre} or {right} inline 
comments which seemed to us a better choice than a separate 
"paragraph".

> > Rene put me on this mission many months ago, and I also
> > believe many of the answers to be in the first page, but I
> > have been unable to reproduce it in my style.

That is a very good point and it has been noticed before. I expect 
the "signatures" to have a special meaning (a name,  a book name, a 
date or a place). How does Strong's table decode for the 1st 
paragraph?

regards,

Gabriel

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To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: f17r and Mattioli 
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:58:44 +0200.
             <C1256480.0025A1BD.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> 
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:43:44 +0100
From: Michael Roe <Michael.Roe@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <E0wJGZk-0000xo-00@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk>
Status: ORr


At the top of 17r, there is a small note in a different hand from the rest of
the MS. Part of this note looks a little bit like "Mathian" (in the latin
alphabet). Someone has clearly had a big leap of imagination and connected
this with the herbal of Matthiolaus. Several authors (including Poundstone
and Brumbaugh) have perpetuated this idea.

[ The 'herbal of Matthiolaus' connection was discussed on sci.crypt in Novemeber
   '91, just before the Voynich mailing list was set up. (Particularly,
   John Baez's posting of 13 Nov 1991 and my posting of 16 Nov 1991).
]

Mike

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Subject: Re: Add to f17r and Mattioli
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  Denis Mardle writes:

> I conclude that f17r extraneous writing starts  mallioi alloi

  "Other hairs"? A reference to comets?
  No, mallia is fem. Sorry, it's all Greek to me.

 > I'm plumping for an Ms date of 1460-1510 from all the
 > historical evidence.

 In which case the Ms would have been without numbering for
 60-100 years. If so, the page ordering may definitely
 have been altered.

 Thanks to Mike Roe for refreshing my memory. I was not
 involved in Voynich matters in 1991, but these sci.crypt
 E-mails were still present on the Web much later. They
 seem to have gone now....

Cheers,  Rene


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	id AA13711; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:10:55 +0100
From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:10:52 +0100
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Subject: The repeats again
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In a contribution a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that the repeated groups
such as '40FC89.40FC89' bore some resemblance to the Greek demonstratives 
'toutou' and related forms.  In support of this idea, I am now enclosing two
text files, one of which I have created from a small corpus of Thucydides and
the other from the Voynich biological B section beginning on f75r.

I modified the Voynich biological section as follows.  I use a modified version
of the Currier transcription which yields pronounceable but not comprehensible
text:  in this system the first line of f75r comes out as 

<f75r.1> VRETIFAKI.OFEEI.HOFAK.LIFRETI.HOFAK.LETI-

I use this transcription for my private convenience and I emphasise that I do
not believe that it represents anything like the true phonetic values of the
plaintext.

I then transformed certain of the most frequent Voynich groups beginning with
'40F' ('HOF' in my system) into these syllables: tou, to, twn, ton, ta, tous,
tois, th, thn.

I modified the corpus of Thucydides as follows:  wherever a word ends with the
pattern 't' - 1 or more vowels - 0 or more consonants, I detached that ending
as a separate word, and did so recursively so that 'onomastota twn' becomes
'onomas to ta twn'.  I then rewrote all words not conforming to the pattern
t - vowel(s) - (consonants) as 'xxx'.

It seems to me that there is a promising resemblance between the two files -
what do others think?

I admit that Greek sequences such as 'twi twi' and 'ton xxx ton' arise out of
a limited set of patterns like 'autwi twi' and 'tonde ton' which are not very
evident in the file generated from the Voynich.  Nonetheless, I should like to
ask those people working on the running text of the manuscript whether they
can produce plausible looking substitutions using their own pet hypotheses.

I apologise for raising the question of the repeated groups yet again, but it
seems to me that alternative theories which have been given do not account for
the fact that the groups in question are of very high frequency, unlike say
Malay 'orang orang' and Japanese 'poka poka', or Biblical rhetoric like
'holy holy holy'.  

Philip Neal
Department of Computer Science
University of Essex

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 xxx xxx xxx ton xxx twn xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx ta ton twn xxx
xxx xxx ti xxx tes te xxx xxx xxx ton xxx xxx thi
xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx
xxx to xxx xxx xxx
 xxx xxx xxx th xxx th xxx tois xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx
 twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ton xxx
 ta xxx xxx xxx twn xxx ta xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ta ton xxx ti xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx ta tous xxx xxx te
xxx ta xxx

 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx thn xxx twn xxx twn
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx
xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx te xxx
xxx thn twn xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx
xxx tes xxx to xxx tas xxx xxx
 xxx xxx tou twi twi xxx xxx xxx xxx tes xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx

 xxx te xxx xxx twn to te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ton
 tois xxx xxx xxx tous xxx xxx xxx ton xxx
xxx

 xxx xxx xxx xxx ta xxx ta ta xxx xxx xxx twn
xxx xxx xxx te xxx ton xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx ths
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx thn xxx ths
xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx tois xxx xxx ti xxx
xxx xxx xxx thi xxx xxx xxx xxx tos
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tos xxx twi xxx xxx tos xxx xxx
xxx teue xxx te xxx thn xxx xxx ta to xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx ton xxx ta ton xxx xxx ton xxx xxx ton xxx xxx xxx ti
xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx twn xxx
xxx xxx xxx ton xxx ta xxx xxx to xxx xxx ta twn xxx
 te xxx xxx xxx xxx thn xxx xxx xxx xxx twn
xxx tous xxx xxx xxx
 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx
 twn xxx xxx thn xxx teian xxx xxx ti to xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx
 xxx tai xxx xxx te xxx tais xxx tos xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx tou to xxx xxx twi xxx xxx xxx
xxx tou xxx xxx thi xxx xxx xxx ton

 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx

xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx ths xxx xxx tei xxx xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
 tau thi thi xxx teiai xxx xxx ta xxx xxx ths

 xxx xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ti twn to te xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tis xxx xxx xxx toih xxx
xxx ton xxx xxx ton xxx xxx te xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx
 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ta te xxx
xxx ths xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tian ths xxx
xxx tos xxx xxx tois xxx ta xxx to xxx xxx twn xxx xxx toi
xxx twn xxx te tas xxx xxx xxx tai ths te xxx xxx tai
xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx te
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx twi xxx
 ths xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
 to xxx to tou to xxx twn xxx xxx thn xxx xxx xxx ths
xxx xxx ths xxx xxx xxx tin
 xxx xxx tein xxx xxx tas xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx
 tas xxx xxx xxx thn xxx teian xxx xxx thn xxx xxx twn
xxx xxx ths xxx xxx twn xxx thi xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx
xxx xxx teuein xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx thn xxx ta xxx
xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx tws xxx

 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tas xxx xxx twn xxx xxx
xxx ton xxx tas xxx xxx th tou xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx tas
xxx tas xxx xxx tas xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx tai xxx xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx tes xxx tais xxx th tou
xxx xxx xxx tas xxx xxx tas xxx tous xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx twn xxx ta xxx xxx xxx
 te xxx xxx tas xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx ta
xxx xxx ta xxx tas xxx twi xxx xxx xxx
xxx
 xxx tas xxx tas xxx xxx xxx xxx tas xxx to xxx xxx ti xxx
xxx xxx tai xxx tes xxx xxx xxx ths xxx xxx xxx

 xxx tion xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ton xxx xxx xxx tia
 ths xxx xxx xxx ton te xxx ton xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx to xxx xxx twi xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx tai xxx
xxx xxx xxx thi xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ths
xxx xxx xxx xxx teian ths xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx twn xxx ta xxx xxx th xxx xxx tois xxx
xxx xxx xxx tes

 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tes xxx xxx xxx tes xxx xxx
xxx teias xxx xxx xxx ton xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx toun tes xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twi xxx xxx ti
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx
xxx thn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tian ta te xxx tou twn xxx
xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx tau ta xxx to ta ta twn xxx xxx xxx tai tois
xxx xxx xxx ta ths xxx xxx tou xxx xxx xxx twn xxx tous xxx tas
xxx xxx tos
 xxx xxx xxx ta ta xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx ta to te xxx
xxx to xxx te xxx xxx xxx
 xxx te xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx tais xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx
xxx ton tes tas xxx xxx

 xxx toi te xxx xxx xxx xxx twi xxx tei xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx tan tes xxx xxx thn xxx xxx xxx tian xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx thi xxx tau thi
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx twi xxx tei xxx
xxx xxx xxx
 xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ti
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twn tous
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx ton xxx ths te
xxx xxx xxx tin xxx xxx xxx ta xxx tau ta xxx twn xxx
xxx

 xxx xxx xxx ths xxx xxx twn xxx twn thn xxx
xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx tais xxx
xxx tan to twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tois
xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx tue to xxx xxx xxx ths
xxx xxx xxx to

 xxx toi xxx xxx xxx tai xxx ta ta tou xxx xxx xxx
 ta xxx tas xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ton ths xxx
xxx
 xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx th xxx xxx ti xxx ta xxx xxx thn xxx thn xxx tou
xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx
 xxx te xxx ta th xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx
xxx xxx th xxx xxx ta xxx tau thi xxx ta xxx xxx xxx ti xxx
 tou xxx tou xxx

 xxx tes xxx thn xxx xxx xxx xxx tou xxx xxx xxx xxx te
xxx xxx twn xxx to xxx xxx ta xxx ta xxx xxx xxx ta xxx
 twn te xxx tos xxx xxx twn xxx xxx ths xxx xxx xxx
xxx twn xxx te xxx toi xxx xxx xxx tois xxx xxx tais
xxx tai xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx
xxx tas xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx tes xxx xxx thn xxx xxx twn xxx thn xxx
 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tou
xxx tos xxx xxx tou xxx xxx tou ths te xxx xxx tous xxx
xxx xxx tes xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ths xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx te twn xxx xxx xxx to xxx
xxx xxx xxx twi xxx twi xxx xxx te xxx
xxx tes xxx xxx xxx tes
 xxx tw ta ta xxx tau ta twn xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx tau ta
xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx

 xxx te xxx twn xxx xxx tou xxx xxx tou xxx xxx ta
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx tois xxx xxx
xxx xxx to xxx xxx tau ta xxx xxx taia xxx ths xxx
xxx teias xxx xxx xxx thi xxx xxx tes th
 xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx thn to
xxx tou twn ta xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx tais xxx tas xxx xxx tou xxx xxx xxx tos tas
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx ta

 ta xxx xxx xxx twn xxx toiau ta xxx ta te xxx xxx ta
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx thn xxx
xxx tes xxx tois xxx twn te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tes xxx
 tas xxx xxx to xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx

 xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx tis xxx xxx xxx to xxx
xxx th xxx tes xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx tous xxx
xxx tois xxx xxx xxx teias xxx xxx ths xxx twn xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tas
xxx tas xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx toi xxx ths xxx xxx xxx teias
xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx toi xxx xxx xxx
 xxx ta xxx xxx ton xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx th
 xxx to xxx xxx te xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx twn xxx xxx twn xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx tos xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tas
xxx thi xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx twi xxx xxx
xxx twn xxx tas xxx

 ta xxx xxx xxx twn xxx ta xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ta ton xxx ti xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx ta tous xxx xxx te
xxx ta xxx
 xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx te xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx toi thn xxx twn
xxx tes xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
 ths xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tes xxx xxx xxx te
xxx ta xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx te ta xxx twn xxx toi xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx tes xxx xxx xxx teuon tes xxx xxx xxx te
 tis xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx twn xxx xxx tai ths te xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tein xxx xxx
xxx tan to xxx xxx xxx to xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx te thi xxx
xxx

 xxx te xxx xxx xxx tais xxx xxx to xxx xxx twn
xxx xxx xxx te to xxx xxx xxx to ton xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx to xxx ta tas xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx xxx tous xxx twn xxx tois xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ton xxx xxx xxx tw xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx te xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx ta xxx te xxx xxx

 xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ths xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx toi xxx xxx taioi xxx twn xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ta thn xxx
 twn xxx xxx twn xxx thn xxx xxx xxx ton xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx ta tou xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tos xxx xxx th xxx xxx ti
xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx thn xxx thn xxx tou xxx xxx
xxx xxx thi xxx thi xxx teiai xxx tai xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx
 ta xxx tais xxx xxx xxx xxx ta xxx thn twn xxx xxx xxx
 ths xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx to
 xxx twi xxx xxx tei xxx xxx thn xxx xxx xxx twi xxx xxx
xxx thn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tos
xxx te xxx twn xxx twn xxx xxx to xxx
xxx tes xxx xxx xxx xxx twn twn xxx xxx tes xxx thn
xxx xxx xxx xxx tas xxx xxx tes xxx xxx to xxx te
xxx ton xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx
xxx xxx xxx te xxx tan tes xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx tes xxx xxx tau ta xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx

 xxx ta xxx ths xxx xxx xxx th xxx tas xxx twn xxx
xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tia xxx te ta xxx
xxx xxx ths te xxx xxx xxx xxx tis ta
 xxx xxx xxx thn xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx to
 thn xxx xxx xxx tou xxx xxx ton xxx to xxx xxx ton
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx toi xxx

 xxx xxx xxx tou xxx xxx xxx ton xxx ti xxx tas xxx
xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ths xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx ton tes xxx xxx xxx xxx tw ta toi xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx
xxx xxx thn xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx ths xxx xxx xxx

 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx
 twn xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tou to xxx xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx
xxx tou xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx th xxx ta xxx
xxx xxx te xxx to xxx xxx xxx ton xxx xxx twn thn xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx tou xxx thi xxx
xxx twn xxx xxx xxx tous xxx xxx xxx tas xxx xxx xxx
xxx tous xxx xxx thi xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx toi xxx
xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx xxx

 xxx xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx twn
xxx xxx xxx tous xxx tas xxx xxx xxx xxx tous xxx
xxx xxx ths xxx xxx xxx xxx toi xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
 tois xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx
 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx toi xxx xxx ta xxx te xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx tes xxx xxx tes xxx xxx twn xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tau thn thn
xxx teian xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx

 xxx xxx xxx ta tos xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx ths xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx ton xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx te
xxx xxx ths xxx tos twn xxx twn xxx to xxx xxx xxx tous xxx tou
xxx xxx xxx to te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ths
xxx xxx xxx xxx to tou tas xxx xxx xxx xxx twi

 xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx twn xxx xxx te xxx thi xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx teian xxx xxx xxx twn
xxx tw ta twn xxx tou xxx xxx twn xxx xxx tois xxx xxx
xxx xxx ton tes xxx xxx tois xxx xxx ta xxx xxx xxx
xxx ton xxx ton tou xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx tos xxx xxx
 tou tou tou xxx xxx tos xxx ti xxx xxx xxx
 xxx xxx twn te xxx twn xxx xxx ti xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
 tou to xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx twn tas xxx teis twn xxx twn
xxx xxx xxx twn tes xxx xxx tai xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx tai
xxx twn to xxx xxx te xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twn
 xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ths
xxx twi xxx xxx xxx tai xxx te xxx tous xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx thn tau thi xxx to te xxx tou tois tois
xxx tais xxx ths xxx xxx teias xxx

 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tas xxx tous te xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx thn xxx tan xxx xxx
xxx to xxx xxx xxx
 xxx xxx xxx ti tau ta ths xxx xxx ti xxx tw xxx twn xxx te xxx
xxx xxx tas xxx xxx twn

 xxx tois xxx toi xxx xxx ton te xxx xxx to xxx xxx
 thi xxx thi xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tois twn
xxx xxx to xxx ton xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx
xxx to xxx tes xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twn
xxx thi xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tous xxx xxx ta to
xxx xxx xxx xxx th xxx xxx xxx

 xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx xxx ton xxx xxx xxx toi xxx
xxx to xxx xxx ta xxx xxx tous xxx xxx ta xxx xxx
xxx toi xxx ta xxx
 xxx te xxx toi xxx xxx to xxx xxx tes xxx xxx ta tou
xxx xxx to to xxx xxx xxx xxx twi xxx xxx xxx ta
xxx tes xxx ta xxx xxx xxx tai xxx to xxx xxx xxx xxx th xxx
xxx tai xxx ti xxx xxx xxx tois xxx xxx tin xxx xxx xxx xxx ta tois
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx tou to xxx
 xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tis xxx to xxx xxx
xxx twi xxx xxx xxx

 twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ta ta xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx tois tois xxx
xxx xxx to xxx tous xxx xxx xxx te xxx xxx ths
xxx tous xxx xxx toi xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx thn xxx teian xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx tais xxx
xxx xxx tais xxx xxx xxx xxx te xxx twn xxx xxx xxx tes xxx
xxx xxx tw xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx xxx
 xxx xxx xxx xxx tai xxx xxx xxx tai xxx te xxx tes xxx
xxx xxx toi xxx xxx tas xxx tas twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx twi xxx xxx twn xxx
xxx xxx xxx twn xxx twn xxx thi xxx xxx xxx xxx
xxx xxx tes thi te xxx twn xxx xxx xxx twi
xxx xxx xxx xxx ti xxx
 xxx tas tan tos xxx tou xxx xxx xxx xxx to xxx xxx
xxx xxx xxx twn xxx xxx xxx xxx xxx tou xxx xxx tas xxx
xxx twn xxx
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VRETIFAKI.OFEEI.tois.LIFRETI.tois.LETI-
TAN.LEI.GI.DLEOG.HOGRETI.RETIFAK.REFEETI.KAK-
twn.RAJ.OFREI.HEI.FEM.LEEFI.GPAN.OGFAK.OK-
TAEFEI.GFAJO.IFEEI.GLEI.FAG.TI.LEI.OF.LEI.to-
LEIFAK.LEI.EFEEI.K.AN.OG.OGLEETI.HOKEEI.th-
BREIFEEAK.OGFI.TAK.OFEI.twn.REPEI.to.th-
BRETI.HOFLTI.IPAN.RETI.tois.RI.GOG.RETI.th-
DAKREI.HOPAKTI.TLEEFEI.twn.REFEI.GLETI.OFEETI-
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twn.OFAM.OG.RETI.REOG.GFI.GD.AM.OFAN.TAG.TI-
OGOK.OG.LEEFEAG.TAM.HOFEETAG.TAM.REFEI.DRETI.HOG-
IFOG.OK.LETI.HOGFEETI.TAM.TFEM.EBEOTI.OGTI-
IAK.OGREI.FAM.OFEEI.TAM.OGOK.REEFEI.TA*TI-
BOGLI.ALIPEET.HOB.OFEETI.OPETI.OFLETI.HOPI.TAt.AJ-
OLEI.ta.OFEEI.OFI.IPEEI.th.OFIGFI.OGRI.PI.TLOGIT-
HOG.OG.RTI.LETI.tou.IPETI.REPETI.GFETEI.IPETI-
IFELEI.TLET.IPETI.IPETI.TAK.IFETAEBEI.HOPI.IFETI.OFAG-
TLETI.IFEETI.LEEFI.TAM.OFETI.HOFEET.tou.GRBRTI-
ton.RETI.OG.LEOI.DAGLEPETI.HOVRETI.K.RETI.GPAKI-
GOK.LETI.HOEETI.OG.RI.KLTI.GLETI.TAK.RTI.BRTI-
DLFRTI.RETI.OG.LETI.HOGRETI.HOFOI.LEFEI.TG.Kh-
HOFRTI.REI.GO.REFI.OG.LETI.HOFOTI.tou.REFEI.th-
DOGFEEI.OG.LETI.tois.LEFEI.TLETI.tois.ton.TOG.RI-
HOEPEEI.REFAG.ROTI.tou.GLEPI.HOGTI.GPETI.HOPAN-
GLO.HOFEI.GLETI.GLETI.RETI.HOGFI.GRETAG.HOG.OPAK-
ton.HOG.OM.REEI.TAG.GOEETI.RETI.DAGRPETIPAK-
LAG.HEFRI.IFAM.OGFAN.LETI.th.TRETI.KOG.OG.EPETI-
IPEI.OFRETI.ton.OFEEI.HOG.REETI.DOG.PEOG.TRTI.GI-
OLETI.HOPETI.LOG.RETI.ILREI.OG.REI.HOG.RETIPRT.OFI-
HOG.REROG.PAK.OFETI.TAG.EEI.OGFEOG.OGFEETI.OFEOG-
TLEOG.O3.OGFEETI.PETI.REFI.LEFEETI.RAG-



HOLEETI.HOFEOG.TAM.LEFEI.OFEEOK.REEI.TAM.LEI-
TRETI.HOGRETI.twn.TI.to.ton.GREEFEI.GRET-
ta.GREEFEETI.HOFAGI.DOGFAM.REFEI.tous-
tous.OEPEEOG.RFEEI.GTI.OPEEI.ton.LEEFEI.th-
DOG.GFRETI.to.ton.EPEOG.RETI.HOPEETI.ton-
DOK.LETI.HOG.LETAM.LEEFEI.OFAG.LEFI.HOPAM.RETOG-
TLETI.D.PAM.tois.LETI.HOFAI.th.GD.REEI-
HEFEEI.LEETI.tou.GROK.REEI.HOFEI.HOPAG.RETI.HOPEOK-
DLOGLEEPEI.tous.RFEAI.KREI.TAtREI.tous-
FOGRTI.tou.HOBOG.HOPETOK.ROIRETI.HOPAGRETI.FAJ-
OPETI.HOTRET.OGHO.TAK.REEFEO.GOGOG.OFTG.OFAKRETI-
PREOG.OGRETI.to.HOPETI.REATK.REEI.GREI.DOGAKOG-
DOGRI.ton.REI.twn.TEEETI.ta.tous.OGRETI-
FETI.GRETI.tou.to.GFEETI.tous.TI.TAM.RTI.TI-
to.GRETI.to.REEI.K.OK.OG.DAM.REI.KAEPEI.TAJ-
TLETI.HOPEEI.RETI.HOFEEEI.tou.GPEETI.to.KOGREI-
BOGRET.OPAN.LETI.LETI.TAG.RETAK.ta.IFEEI.GDOKAM.OKI-
OFAN.RAK.OFAN.HOF.EETI.GRI-
BOKAGLI.tou.EBEAG.LETI.LEOG.FEEETI.GFAM.LETI.HOGI-
TAM.REOFI.GFETI.FOGLEI.TAM.REI.HOG.RETI.ta.TAG-
tous.REOK.LEEI.tous.LEFEEI.HOG.FEEETI.HOFEEEI.KAKI-
EEI.HEPEEI.ta.GREEI.TAM.REI.HOFEEETI.GRETI.GAK-
to.GREETI.HOFEOI.DAG.KAM.ta.GFEEI.ta.KAM.ITI-
TOG.HOLETI.LEETG.LEETI.GLET.HOEFEEI.GRETI.GOK.LEEI.KI-
PLEI.to.REAG.GRETAK.RED.AM.OPEEI.tous.OFEI-
BRETI.KLEAG.TAGTI.to.KLETI.to.to.GORETI-
HOFOM.LETI.to.HOPAM.REPEOI.HOPEEOG.REI.HOPAM.OGI-
TREEI.GRETI.to.GRETI.KRETI.OFREI.HOPETI.HOPI.HOPI-
HOPEEI.KAM.REOG.HOPEEI.LETI.ta.GLETI.to.KAJ-
REOG.OG.KLEETI.GRETI.HOPI.GREEOK.twn.REETI.GRET-
PAM.LETAM.REFEEI.GREI.GREEFEI.LEEI.GK.REI.KAN-
DAN.OG.ROG.EFEEI.REOK.REI-



POFOG.OGVRETI.to.HOFETAG.LOG.HOPAG.OPTAG.TOG.OGLETI-
tou.GLETI.HOPOG.TOG.RETI.LETI.TI.TAKOPETI.REPETI.GOFAJ-
TAt.OGRETI.HOPETI.HOPETI.RETI.HOPAG.HOPI.ton.tou.GO-
twn.LEOG.HOPEETI.RETI.HOFEI.tou.thn.RETI.RETI.GRI-
DOGRETI.GRETI.TOGLETI.ton.LEEFEI.LEI.PEEOG.OPEETI.tou-
HOPEI.ton.LEFI.ton.RETI.HOPAGRETI-
BREOG.TAK.ta.REEFI.ton.TAG.RETI.BRTI.KOG.HOPETI.KOG-
TAG.LOG.TAK.OG.th.HOG.RETI.tois.HOPEI.PIHOFI.REPEI.th-
PRETI.HOEPEED.tois.REFEI.twn.ROG.FAM.REFETI.HOFOGTI-
TOGRETI.GREI.KOG.KOG.REEI.DANREI-
PAK.LEEFEI.ton.twn.REOG.PETI.KRETI.BRETI.KLEOG.TAG-
tou.GREI.REEI.KAM.LED.HOFREI.twn.OFAG.TI.GRETZ-
OKAN.LETI.HOF.EEAK.OFAK.to.KREEI.HOPETI.RPETI.KRED.AGI-
IFEETI.to.RETI.tois.TFEEI.GFETI.ton.OGFEETI.to.OFI-
thn.RETI.REAG.RETI.OPI.RTI.TI.REEFEI.OPAG.RGD-
POGLEOG.tou.HOGFETI.KLETI.tou.KLEETAK.ONOGI-
TAN.REI.HOFEEEI.th.OFAM.OFAN.OGFAN.OPAN.OFAK.AGI-
twn.RETI.HOGFLEI.HOPAG.LEI.twn.OGREEFEI.GI-
HLETI.HOGREI.HOGAM.OPAN.OGFEETI.HOPLETI.OGG-
TRETI.tous.OGRETI.ton.RETI.HOPAG.TIPAK.IGJG-
HOF.LEOG.FEREI.th.KAG.PRTAKOG.LEIPRTI.ton-
DAM.LEI.thn.ROG.HOG.LEETI.ton.LETI.tous-
twn.LEAG.HOGRETI.HOFAU.OGFAM.LETI-
PRAG.OGFAt.LEEFI.HOGREI.tois.REI.twn.OPLETI-
TAM.REI.th.LETI.tous.OGFEETI.HOFERETI.HOPU-
BOG.OGOK.REI.twn.LETI.HOFEM.TGREKI.OG.K.ANTAK-
ta.KAN.REI.HOGFAN.OFI.OPAGI.ton.L.OGLAGDI-
DAK.OG.GOKAM.REI.twn.O.KO3-
HOTI.LAK.AEPEEI.HOFREI.FREI.OGFAN.OBRETI.HVOG.LPI.OKAG-
IEFEEI.twn.REFI.OPAM.OGOK.OFAN.HOGFEEI.HOPAK.OGFAN-
EPEOK.REI.HDAN.ta.twn.OPAN.OPAG.OFEETI.ton.TIJ-
DAM.LEI.to.tois.LEEEPEEI.tous.TAGPETI.KREAGT-
DOG.REI.K.AGREI.ROG.OGFOG.REFEI.TAGREFEI.OGFAN.OGFEEIK-
BREOG.LETI.tous.LOGTI-



PRETI.GBRETI.OBLETI.REBOG.BRETAK.LETI.HOBRETI-
DOG.REEI.tous.LOG.GRD.LEI.HOPEETI.KRED.AK.RETI.TOK-
OGFEETI.HOPAG.RFEETI.REI.TAM.REI.GRETI.tous.HOPAG.TAK-
HOFLETI.RETI.tou.RFETI.TAM.LEPAK.LETI.HEFAM.RETI-
TLEEI.HOPAM.REEFEI.HOPI.RE6.LETI.ta.KRETI.HOPEETI.GO-
DRETI.RETRI.ton.OGRETI.tous.RETI.to.GRETI.th-
DOGLET.GLEETI.HEEETI.th.OHOG.KLEETI.tou.HOPEETI.HOPEETI-
BRETAG.OPETI.LEEPEETRI.th.RETI.RAKI-
BROK.REEBEETI.tou.GLEETI.HOFRTI.KLETFETI.HOBLTI.HOBI-
OGFEEI.KRD.REE.OGD.AM.DFAG.TAN.EPEAG.DAM.RFI.GAG.DAJ-
DOK.LETI.tous.RFAN.LEPEEI.tou.OFAt.LEETI.GRETI.GE-
HOEFEOG.LEEFEI.OPAG.HOFEAG.LEEFETI.EFAG.OFETI.tou.ton-
DAGREOG.PAK.LETI.DAGPETI.DEU.tou.HBRETI.GREBEETI.GTAK-
HOFRETI.to.LETI.HOFLETI.TAG.GRETI.tous.LEPEI.PAGDI-
DAM.LETEA.LEEPEI.REI.PAG.LEPEI.TAGRTI.HOPRETI.GRETI-
PRETI.HOFRTI.REETAK.RGTAM.RETI.twn.REEPEI.REAGKOK-
TREOFETI.GFEET.LEFEEI.IPAM.RERI.DREPI-
TAGLTI.LOEBEETI.APOK.LETI.OBLETI.OPLTI.HOFETIG.LTI.DOGTI-
DAK.LETAM.OEFEEI.DAN.RET.LETI.HEPAG.TAG.LETI.LEI.GRETI-
DOGFEETI.HOPEETI.ta.tou.KOG.REEEPI.tou.th.DAM-
DOGFEETI.tou.OPETI.DOG.RETI.GFETI.HOFRETI.tou.REFETI.DAK-
DRETAt.OPRETI.to.RETAN.RETI.HOPETAM.OPAM.OPETI.GTI-
PRETI.HOPETI.ton.LETI.tou.LEEPEETI.LEEPEI.OPOC.RETI-
DO3.REEPEI.REPI.OPAM.OGDAGI.LETI-
to.HOGREI.ta.tou.RETI.OPAT-
OPREI.ta.th.POG.LETI.HOFIGTTI-
TAN.RETI.HOKEETI.LEFEETI.LEFEETI-
DAM.REEFI.LEEI.tou.LETI.OGTI-
DOGRETI.REEI.HOTI.FEET.OGTI-
DOFEETI.to.th.DAD-
PERETI.HOP.RETI.OFEETI.GTI-
DREOG.HOFRETI.GRETI.HOFEI-
DI.DAM.LEEFRI.HOFEI.DAN-
LFI.GRETI.TOGLET.HOFRI-
DAM.REFI.OFEEOG.OFAN.EETI-
DOK.AM.LI.LEI.GLETI.th-
DOG.GFETI.GRETI.ton.LETI-
OK.REI.HOEFEEI.TAtITI-
twn.LEI.FAN.REFEAG-
DOGRETI.OGRETI.RETAM-
DOGFEEI.HEFEI.KAGI.OG.DOGFEI.GRETI.HOGFAN.TAG-
DOGRFAG.REAG.HOPAK.OG.DOG.OG.REPETI.*RETI.GRTI-
TAM.OG.TAN.REI.GTAGOK.TAM.LEOG.RETI.HOP*.KAK-
DOG.KPAN.EPEEg.DFAK.LETI-



BOGTAFI.TAGOG.OPETI.RPAt.OBRETI.H.PAG.RETI.REBRETI.OBREI-
TOG.LETI.tou.LETI.HOPETAK.REEPEETI.tou.HOPAG.REI.TAK-
HOPAN.REPEI.TAGOGFETI.LETI.HOPAGTI.tous.TAt.LETI.OPEEI-
TAN.LEETI.OPEEOTI.TAGTI.HOPETI.to.HOPETAK.LEOGTI.HOGOGI-
ton.LETI.HOPAN.RETI.RETOG.TAM.OPAM.LETI.to.OFAM-
RETI.HOPEETI.OPAGLETI.DOG.RG.EEED.OFEOG.LETI.HOFOGRETI.ton-
ta.OPEEI.HOFAGOG.RETI.TI.TOG.ton.OGPLETI.to.ton-
DOGFEETI.tous.OFAM.RET.OFREI-
BRETAK.LETAG.tois.LETAG.OFRTI.tou.HOFAg.LETI.HOFIKGLE-
TAM.LEFEI.HOEEI.GGTIK.REEI.HOAG.to.OGFAK.LEETI.twn.OGAG-
HOGREI.HO.GRET.HOGFI.ton.RETI.RETI.TAM.REFEI.REAK.AG.GAG-
DAGRET.HOGLETI.HOGRETI.HOGRTI.HOG.KRETI.REOG.HOFEAK.LOGTI-
tous.REOG.LEI.ta.REOGAAG.REEAM.OGFEETI.ton.RAGOGI-
TAM.ton.LEEFEEI.ta.RAG.ta.tous.RETI.DAK.AG-
tous.REEAG.tous.LETG.HOFEAK.REETI.OGREEI.ton.HOFAOI-
DOGFEETI.to.to.DAM.OFAM.RETI.to.HOGFEETI-
HOFRETI.HOGPEETI.to.ton.OFAM.REAK.REEFEI.TAG.REEFETI-
POEPEEI.REOK.OGOG.REOG.PETI.LEEFEAG.LEEEFEI.REAG-
HOFEET.tous.LEOGFAN.LEOG.OGFEETIGLETI-
RAK.HOFGK.REOGFAN.LEFEEI.ton.REOKOGT-
HOGAM.REFEETI.LEAG.tous.LEFEIGREI-
OGREETI.to.twn.TAGLAG.LGTI.GOK-
I.LEI.OPERTAK.OFOG.TAG.LETI.HOFAGI-
DAG.REAK.LEI.tois.LETI.twn.OGGRI-
TLEOG.REOG.LETI.tous.REEFI.GOGK-
HOG.LAG.REETI.HOG.OHO.twn.OGLEAJ-
OGRAG.LETI.REIPAG.LETAG.TAGLTI-
tous.RETI.ton.OPAGRETI.HOPAGD-
OILEI.HOG.ton.RETIHOPI-
HOG.OGAN.LEOG.HO.ton.LECG-
LEI.OBREI.EPEEI.OGRI-



FOG.RETI.ta.OPETI.TIPETI.OFEETI.OGLET.OBLET.IFLETI.tou.OBOGI-
POGOKLEEI.REFETI.DREFEI.TAG.ILETI.OPETI.HOG.OK.OG.EETI.ta.OKOTI-
ta.TAK.LETI.tou.to.tou.RETI.OFAM.REI.tou.TAK.OGAOTI-
POK.LETIPETI.OG.OGREOG.LETI.DEFEI.ton.OGFETI-
BROG.EBEOG.DOGPEOG.PETI.HOPETI.to.ta.OGFEETI.PEIHOFETI.HOBOK.OGI-
OPRI.OGLETI.tou.LETI.OFETI.LEFEI.REFEI.OGREI.DREI.TAG.REFEI.KAG-
HOFEI.DOG.IHOFAN.HOGFEEI.HOPETI.twn.LETI.DAGRETI-
BLOGBREVETI.to.TI.tou.TAM.LEFEETI.tous.REEPEI.TAK.REEPEI.AJ-
tous.ROG.REFI.FAGIREI.OFAGRETIPOKI.OPLETI.HOFEI.GLETI-
HOPR*TI.IFEETI.HOFAGOG.LETI.tou.to.to.RETI.KAM.REI.OPAK.TAK-
TAK.LEOK.LEPEI.tois.HOPETI.DLETI.HOGREI.OPEEI.HOG.LETI.OG.TAN.OGOK-
BOG.PAK.LETI.tou.OFAG.LEI.HOFAKREFEI.OPREI.HOFRETI.EEBEEI.tous-
BRETI.HOPRETI.OPAM.REPEI.LETI.OPETI.HOPI.HOPETI.OG.OFETI.OPETI.KAJ-
HOPOG.LEPEEI.OPI.TAK.LEPEI.DRTI.to.OGFEI-
BOGRT.VRETI.LEEPEI.OGFI.TAK.OBAGFAM.OHOVRETI.AKA3.OVOGI.OKOGI-
DAK.OG.OGAM.IHOGIHOK.OK.EFEETI.RFETI.OFAN.LETI.HOFOGRETI.OGAN-
to.OFEEI.TAK.OGRETI.HDOGFEETI.KAK.REEFEI.OPAK.RETI.OGREPEI.GOK-
TRTI.tou.OGREFEI.OGRTI.DAKOK.IFEETI.REPEI.BAN.LETI.LEFAJ-
IFRTAK.OK.AKAK.LETI.ton.TAM.LETI.OGFETI.tou.th.RETI.TAM-
HOPAK.IPETI.PETI.TAK.OGFETI.HOPETI.LEFEI.RPOG.PETI.TAK.OK.OGI-
LOG.PRTIPETI.IFAN.LEI.REOGIPETI.OGFETI.OFETAK.OGFEETIGAKI-
TLEIPEEI.DAK.OG.LETI.TAKAGTI.OPETAM.LEFERI.REFEEI.TAMAKIGI-
ton.TAM.TAN.OPEI.REOK.At.LEFEI.OKAtAKO-
LEI.TAK.LEI.TANAM.LETI.OKOGIFAK.OFETI.HOPI.RETI.OFETAK.REI.OGOG-
HOPEETI.thn.OPETI.LETI.to.TOG.OG.TAJ-
DAKOGRTI.GLETI.HOFRI.TCG.OPETI.IPROKOGFI-
TLETI.LEETI.tou.RETI.PEETI.to-
to.TFETI.OGLETI.ton.LEFEI.CGFEETI-
TLEETI.OPEETI.HOPAK.REFAK.OFLETI.DAM-
OFAM.OPRTI.twn.LETI.ta.HOPETI-
twn.OPRETI.DFEEI.KREFI.TOG.OFERI-
IFETI.HOPETI.REPEI.OGREPEI.TAK.AKOKI-
IPRGRETI.HOFOK.LEFETI.OFETI.EPEEI.TAJ-
TOGETI.tou.AKOK.OFETI.OFETI-



FOK.LETI.OPETI.HOPETI.OPETAK.EVETOKOG-
OPEEI.HOPEEI.OFEI.REPAN.LEEFI.TAM.OG-
ta.OPEETI.RETI.HOFEET.OK.OFEETI.KI-
IFEETI.HOEETI.OGFEEI.REFI.ta-
BOM.OG.FETI.OFETI.th.OFEETI.HOFEI-
tou.OFETI.to.OFEETI.LETI.th-
LEOG.HOGREI.OPEETI.DE3.OFATI.RFETI-
HOPEET.OPETI.LEETI.to.HOEETI.OFEETI.TAJ-
LETI.HOEETI.OG.REEI.TAM.REFEETI.TAN.TI.TAM-
HOFEL.tou.OPETI.LETI.tou.TOG.OGFEETI.TOG.PEETAJ-
LETOG.RETI.OFETI.OPOG.REFEETI.HOPETI.TOFETI.TOG.GFEEI.HOFITI-
TLEI.OGFEEI.TOG.OG.OPETI.OFETI.OFETI.tou.TOG.TAK.OG.RETI.DAN-
tou.to.TAM.REEPEI.OFAG.OG.FETI.RETI.TOGFETI.OFETAJ-
DO3.OG.RETI.HOG.PETI.LEI.tou.HOFEI.T.GI.OG.LETI.tou-
ta.OPOG.RETI.TAN-
TLEEI.to.IFETI.HOFOK.LETI.th.TOG.LEFEI.twn.OG.FOGTI-
DOGFED.OGOPAK.LEFI.LPOG.tois.RTI.PAGLETI.OFAK.OFETI.LETI.TI-
POGLI.th.tou.LETI.HOPEETI-
BROGLETI.LPOG.OFETI.OBROGOK.FRTI.OVRECID.AM.EVEEEI.OGD-
OLEI.PETI.OFAN.LEI.tou.FRTI.OFETI.OFEI.TI.OFETI.OGLTI-
ta.OGFAM.OFOG.LETI.EPEIFOKOG.OKOK-
IREEI.OFEETI.OGFAN.OGREI.DAM.OGI-
twn.OFAN.OGOG.OFAG.RETI.RETI-
OG.tois.LTI.HOG.OPETI.OGRETI-
I.OK.LETI.HOGFEETI.OGRETI.OGFAG-
TAG.LETI.tou.LETI.TAN.TAM-
DAN.LETI.ta.TAM.OFETI.OGTI-
HOFEI.OG.FEET.tou.HOFEI.HOFEOGI-
RAG.TAM.OPAG.RTI.OPAG.REFEOK.AGI-
tou.LEI.FAG.OFETI.IVRETI.PETI.GOGOK-
LETI.HOFEI.tou.REI.TAK.OFEI.OFELI.OGRI-
twn.OG.RETI.AGREI.D.AG.OK.RTI.TREI.OFEI.GRI-
LOK.OG.OFAN.LETI.OG.LETI.POGOFEETI.RETI.OFETI.GOG-
HOFEI.DOG.FETI.OFEI.GFAN.LEI.LED.OG.LETI.ta.KOK-
REFEI.tous.LEI.TAN.ta.TAM.OFAM.ton.TIg-
HOFREI.to.OFETI.TOGOK.OG.RETI.OPEOG.OGOG-
GLETI.HOG.AM.OFOI.OGREI.GREI.OGLETI.LEFEI.DOGI-
IPEETAK.OGFEEI.OGREI.OGFEI.GFEOGTI.TAM.OGFETI.IFAM-
DOK.OFAD.TOGPETI.OPOG.RETI-
--2c28_5b53-5e55_1494-20ce_2e84--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 21 11:35:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:27:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Cc: voynich%rand.org@seralph21.essex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The repeats again
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On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Neal P wrote:

> I apologise for raising the question of the repeated groups yet again, but it
> seems to me that alternative theories which have been given do not account for
> the fact that the groups in question are of very high frequency, unlike say
> Malay 'orang orang' and Japanese 'poka poka', or Biblical rhetoric like
> 'holy holy holy'.  

	My thought here: the Voyscript uses several characters to
represent each phoneme.  Also, word divisions are not in fact word
divisions, but are breaks required by orthography (like in Arabic) or are
syllable divisions.  Thus the repeated words are in fact repeated
*syllables*.  That would fit fairly well with what you're suggesting, and
with various other things too.

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr 23 22:44:01 1997
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No new messages, so just pinging the board to see if there is a problem. 
DELETE!!!!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 05:32:02 1997
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Dear all,

just a thought that occurred to me the other day.
It sounds promising (if I may say so myself :-)),
but I don't really think it works very well....

The way stars are drawn in the VMs is very similar
to the way they are drawn in many other Mss. Of course,
there are not that many options on how to draw
a star.
Some stars have dots or circles in their centre.
I have seen at least one Ms where a planet symbol was
drawn in the centre of a star, to indicate that it
was that planet. I don't think this is the case in
the VMs though.
On the other hand, apart from one or two six-pointed stars,
all stars have either seven or eight points.
Could not the seven points mean that a planet
is intended (of which there are seven) and
the eight points that it is a star (i.e. in the
eighth sphere)?

Has this been suggested before?

Comments are welcome,
              Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 09:29:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:21:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Guy Thibault <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
cc: Voynich List <voynich@RAND.ORG>
Subject: Re: Objet-  Phonetics -- new te
In-Reply-To: <n1350251979.68232@artefact.qc.ca>
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On 24 Apr 1997, Guy Thibault wrote:

> As a test, I had in mind to try this:
> 
> Get a phonetic text, originally in french or english, but written in
> phonetics (just like you see in a dictionary). Transliterate this
> phonetic text in ASCII. Run the SAME statistical test on this
> transliteration, and compare with those already published on this
> list.... 

        I essentially did this in my MONKEY business posts.  Latin
spelling is phonetic (except for distinguishing long and short vowels),
and comes very close to using one letter per phoneme.  I used two
substitute orthographies which use several letters for many phonemes,
making the necessary substitutions with BITRANS.  I called these Cat Latin
A & B.  I used excerpts from 1 Kings in the Vulgate Bible.  Here are the
results again: 

                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

1kingsa.lat    24   14828   4.585   3.989   3.273   0.715   17.9   35.7
1kingsb.lat    24   15537   4.585   4.012   3.281   0.731   18.2   35.8
1kingsc.lat    23   14374   4.524   3.977   3.253   0.724   18.2   36.0
1kingsa.cla    16   21658   4.000   3.673   2.410   1.263   34.4   30.1
1kingsb.cla    16   22499   4.000   3.689   2.432   1.257   34.1   30.4
1kingsc.cla    16   20591   4.000   3.680   2.430   1.250   34.0   30.4
1kingsa.clb    24   27653   4.585   3.355   2.176   1.179   35.1   23.7
1kingsb.clb    24   29133   4.585   3.341   2.170   1.171   35.0   23.7
1kingsc.clb    23   26797   4.524   3.345   2.167   1.178   35.2   24.0

        Here are the Cat Latin A & B systems:

Plain
Text  CLA    CLB
----  ----   ----
a     a      a
b     pqx    bqaa
c     c      c
d     tqx    dqaa
e     e      e
f     pqh    fqaa
g     cqx    gqaa
h     h      h
i     i      i
j     i      jqaa
k     c      k
m     pqm    mqaa
n     tqm    nqaa
o     o      o
p     p      pqaa
qu    qu     qu
r     r      rqaa
s     tqh    sqaa
t     t      t
u     u      u
v     u      v
w     u      w
x     cs     x
y     i      y
z     tqhx   zqaa

        Cat Latin A attempted to reduce Latin to as few characters as
possible by eliminating some distinctions and spelling out some phonemes
with multiple characters.  Cat Latin B increases entropy by adding qaa
after many consonants.  Since q only occurs as qu or qaa, there is no
ambiguity.  This is not the same as randomly inserting nulls, since the
letters qaa can only come after certain consonants.  In linguistic terms,
one would call qaa silent letters.

	Gabriel, Jacques, and I are working on some more tests along these
lines with Japanese and Hawaiian.  

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 08:38:03 1997
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Message-ID: <n1350251979.68232@artefact.qc.ca>
Date: 24 Apr 1997 08:27:42 -0500
From: "Guy Thibault" <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
Subject: Objet-  Phonetics -- new te
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@RAND.ORG>
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Dear all,

I have seen sometime ago a report on the "famous" scribes who wrote the hieroglyphs in toutankhamon's pyramid...

It seems these scribe were illeterate, and did NOT recognized when the made syntax (or gramatical?) error ... There was a  supervisor scribe who corrected the errors before the paint dried...

This gave me an idea/scenario to explain some of the VMS "features"... Supose a person is dictating his knowledge. Let's call him the source. He speaks, because he can't write. But he has to draw the pictures thaugh, and he does so before the scribe writes on the page.

Now, The source is speaking language X, which the scribe does not understand (!) So the scribe write phoneticaly, as he would pronounce the sounds in his tongue. You have to "speak" the writing in order to understand it. Now we know (?) there is two scribe. Each will transcribe the sounds as HE would speak it, according to HIS accent and pronounciation. Thus the same word could be written differently... Enaugh to mess up  any stats... Since the structure of the phrase is not kept, after all a word might be represented as a single phoneme, or letter.. Grouping according to space as delimiter might not be significant....

As a test, I had in mind to try this:


Get a phonetic text, originally in french or english, but written in phonetics (just like you see in a dictionary). Transliterate this phonetic text in ASCII. Run the SAME statistical test on this transliteration, and compare with those already published on this list....

Unfortunatly I did NOT find such phonetic text :-( I figure since there seems to be linguists on this list that you might have more chance and dig up such a text in a form suitable to be transliterated by a simple program???

Anyone interested in doing this test? Any hints where I could get such file?

I just thought I should share this idea since I was getting  nowhere in my quest for phonetics...


Guy Thibault


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 12:05:03 1997
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To: Rene Zandbergen <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 15:34:22 +0100 ( + )
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   From Denis V Mardle    24 April 1997

Rene suggests  
 <<<
The way stars are drawn in the VMs is very similar
to the way they are drawn in many other Mss. Of course,
there are not that many options on how to draw
a star.
Some stars have dots or circles in their centre.
I have seen at least one Ms where a planet symbol was
drawn in the centre of a star, to indicate that it
was that planet. I don't think this is the case in
the VMs though.
On the other hand, apart from one or two six-pointed stars,
all stars have either seven or eight points.
Could not the seven points mean that a planet
is intended (of which there are seven) and
the eight points that it is a star (i.e. in the
eighth sphere)?

Has this been suggested before?

Comments are welcome,
              Rene
              >>>>>>
An interesting idea, but one would expect more 8 pointed
than 7 as there are more stars than planets.  The logical
method would be for Saturn to have 7, Jupiter 6, Mars 5
etc.    What do you make of the various, mostly alternating
centres and my double star observation on f106r ?   Also
the group believed to be the pleiades - are they all 8
pointed ?  It is unfortunate that we do not seem to have
the star colours except for yellow in one plate from Newbold
( III labelled f67r,  67r1 in M D'Imperio ). 

  The stars on folio f68v3  seem to be mostly 6 pointed
with some 7 pointed.  This is also the folio which has
the wavy wall surrounding the stars.  According to an
expert on Medieval Italian Ms this pattern originating
( possibly ) from the North was all over Italian Ms in the
second half of the 15th century.  This also ties in with
Dennis's long summary on 18 April 1997 including from
1995
<<<
I just spent a couple of hours with my friend Sergio Toresella, an
expert on manuscript herbals visiting this country from Italy.
He has been making a tour of American libraries and while at the 
Beinecke spent a little time with the VMS.  He knows about my interest,
and about our group.  Here is a sketch of some of his comments
about the VMS:

The VMS is, with certainty, authentic; not a fake.  It was manufactured
in the period 1450-1460.  It was in France for a while: the month names
on the zodiac diagrams are in French in a French handwriting.  The book
itself comes from Italy; the mysterious writing is done in a round 
humanistic style found only in Italy in the second half of the 1400's.
There are similarities between the organization of the VMS (including 
the balneological section!) and that of other Italian herbals of the
1400s.
(He has a lot more to say on this account.)  The author of the VMS was a
madman, obsessed by sex.

He plans to write up his observations in a paper, possibly with help
from 
me.

Jim Reeds
           >>>>

     Rene - your comment
<<<<
( From D.V.M. )
 > I'm plumping for an Ms date of 1460-1510 from all the
 > historical evidence.
 ( from Rene )
 In which case the Ms would have been without numbering for
 60-100 years. If so, the page ordering may definitely
 have been altered.
                 >>>>>
  The interval between writing the VMs and numbering the
folios is clearly interesting. Presumably this happened when it
was bound, but if so how did some numbered folios go missing ?
But more logical is for the numbered pages to have gone
missing well before it was bound.  I suspect these missing
folios are still around somewhere in an out of the normal place,
c.f. The purse that originally held Queen Elizabeth I's Great Seal 
which turned up recently.

Keep commenting                   Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 10:56:02 1997
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From: firthr@db.erau.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Objet-  Phonetics -- new te
Status: OR

>Dear all,
>
>I have seen sometime ago a report on the "famous" scribes who wrote the
>hieroglyphs in toutankhamon's pyramid...

I think Guy's idea is worth testing, but the above story is surely
a Nilotic legend.  Tutankhamun didn't have a pyramid, and there is no
writing inside any of the three Dynasty IV pyramids (those of Khufu,
Khafra, and Menkaure).

Moreover, the only significant body of pyramid texts I know of,
those of the Dynasty V pharaohs beginning with Pepi I, are incised
into the stone, and the paint was applied afterwards.

TTFN
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 12:05:04 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Trigons, f93r, f1r
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 17:00:30 +0100 ( + )
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   From  Denis Mardle       24 April 1997

Trigons, as I have just discovered from page 200
of the new Camb.Univ.Press History of Astronomy,
are the way that conjunctions of Saturn and Jupiter
occur about every 20 years and form nearly an
equilateral triangle round the Zodiac so that about
every 60 years they hit the same Zodiac sign 
moving forwards each time so that after 3
occurrences in that sign they go on to the next
sign.  Kepler produced a chart showing this in
1596. Since it takes 800 years to repeat all this
approximately the 1603 conjunction on 17 Dec 1603
( Gregorian Calender ) was tied to the star of
Bethlehem and then to the extraordinary coincidence
of the Supernova in our Galaxy on 10 Oct 1604 that
was very close to Jupiter and Mars with Saturn not
all that far away.

 The conjunctions were in Pisces in 1464, 1524 and 1583
in Cancer in 1444, 1504 and 1563 in Scorpio in 1425,1484
and 1544
 I have still to run the program to tie in Mars and Venus

   Rayman commented
  <<<<
I would be extremely interested in your findings and anything that would
alter my view of the dating process of this manuscript.  I am also eager to
read your findings on folio 93r as I have not spent much time on it, except
to verify the beginning sequence.
         >>>

I have done almost nothing on Dr. Strong's papers for over a week due
to lack of time.  I'll have to go back to compounde versus compound
as well as the a or lack of it before that word and his omission of 'the'
at one point.  It is going to be extremely difficult to get the slides right.
The extreme roughness of the cipher is also going to cause problems
with statistical analysis, the polygraphic properties making things even
worse.

On f1r my BM better copy is too dark and my copy from Tiltman is too
faint.  On 25 Feb 1995 I produced the following ( using Currier as usual)

For the 'extra words' at the ends of paragraphs :-

para 1    98AR  AI ( Z ? ) 9

para 2    8AN  ( 2? )  PCO89

para 3    OPOE  8A3

para 4    8SAM  ( possible 2nd word )

Last lines of paragraphs :-

para 1   2AT9  SCAR  QAM  WAR  YAM

para 2  8AM  Z**  YOE  ZO89

para 3  ZOF  SOR  SC9  8AN  XO9

para 4  SO  SOE  SOF  SOP9  SOPC9

 This last line of para 4 is extraordinary

Denis 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 13:41:03 1997
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Subject: Re: Objet- Phonetics -- new te
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Juh swee luh tennybroo, luh verf, lan conso lay,
Luh pranz docky 10 ah lah 2 robba lee,
Mah surl aytwoll ay mort, ay mo loot constallay
porta luh solay nooar duh may long colee.

....jay ruhvay dahn lah grot oo nodge la seeren,
ay jay derr fooah vangcur traversay lackerone,
modoolahn toor uh toor dahn luh loot dorfay
lay soopeer day lah sant ay lay cree duh la fay.

When I was playing with the old Macintosh speech synthesizer, this sort of
thing would get me a reasonable approximation of Gerard de Nerval's "El
Desdichado" - or as we say back home in San Antonio, el dess dee chow.

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist
Knoxville Tennessee USA

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Apr 24 14:50:02 1997
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Subject: Re: Stars
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>An interesting idea, but one would expect more 8 pointed
>than 7 as there are more stars than planets.  The logical
>method would be for Saturn to have 7, Jupiter 6, Mars 5

I cannot recall anyone ever doing that.   More common was to
write the astrological symbol alongside the star.  After the
invention of the telescope, when it was known the planets
had discs, you sometimes found the symbol within a circle,
with or without points.  But, of course, the same symbols
were used for the known metals (silver, mercury (!), copper,
gold, iron, tin and lead), so a circle with the mirror glyph
could mean either "the planet venus" or "one part copper".

If the VMS predates the Copernican Revolution, then the
planets are Luna, Mercury, Venus, Sol, Mars, Jupiter, and
Saturn; and yes, the eighth sphere is that of the fixed
stars.

But if the VMs stars are real stars, I find it most puzzling
that the constellations aren't drawn out also; almost all
celestial spheres of the time had both the stars and the
funky pictures.

>The author of the VMS was a
>madman, obsessed by sex.

There are worse things one could be obsessed with.
Indeed, one candidate comes immediately to mind ...

TTFN
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 26 19:11:22 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: unsubscribe please
Status: OR


please unsubscribe me.

It's way-interesting, but I don't have enough time right now.

Thanks!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 25 05:59:02 1997
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Subject: Stars and Provenance, long (Re: Stars)
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Denis Mardle wrote:

> An interesting idea, but one would expect more 8 pointed
> than 7 as there are more stars than planets.

Perhaps not. It would depend on the interest of the writer.

> The logical method would be for Saturn to have 7, Jupiter 6,
> Mars 5 etc.

To which Robert Firth:

> I cannot recall anyone ever doing that.

Which, in the case of the VMs, is perhaps not too
relevant. The writer(s) certainly show a lot of
originality, although I would not want to use that as a
'carte blanche', to permit anything to be read from the Ms.

> More common was to write the astrological symbol alongside
> the star.

Yes, and they seem to be missing from the VMs, unless they
have also been represented in the Voynich script.

> But, of course, the same symbols were used for the know
> metals

Also seven of course. This is one of the themes we may have to
look for. I have even seen

Then again Denis:

> What do you make of the various, mostly alternating
> centres ....

The entire stars section has what looks like arbitrary
alternations of the main colour, the number of points or
the presence of a dot with each star. The presence of a
tail is more 'organised' on a page by page basis. I'm
still hoping to find a correspondence between these stars
and the ones in the zodiac pages (I guess I'm not the first).
It is not clear whether any of the properties mentioned
above were drawn intentionally or arbitrarily.
Then again, in the zodiac pages there really seems to be
a purpose in the position of the right hand of each nymph.
So does that mean all obvious variations are intentional???

> ...and my double star observation on f106r

If the stars section depicts stars, we know which one(s)
this refers to. If it's also represented in the zodiac,
it must have been with Aquarius or Capricorn, which may not
be so strange as it would seem at first sight. But what
about those nymphs that have no star?
Also, if the stars section refers to dates we can guess
which one is intended here...

> Also the group believed to be the pleiades - are they
> all 8 pointed ?

A good point. I need to check.
Note that, alas, there are also nine-pointed stars.

> It is unfortunate that we do not seem to have
> the star colours except for yellow in one plate
> from Newbold.

On one occasion Petersen says yellow and blue. Mostly
yellow though.

> .... wavy wall surrounding the stars..... this pattern
> ......was all over Italian Ms in the second half of the
> 15th century.

Indeed, and it may have spread North of the Alps too.
The apparent inconsistency between Panofsky's German
hypothesis and Toresella's Italian does no longer worry
me. There was a lot of travelling and exchange of
ideas between the two (and we can throw in France as
well). Think of Duerrer (no, I'm not suggesting he wrote
the VMs!!!!) or Agrippa (one of his apprentices might have...)

> The interval between writing the VMs and numbering the
> folios is clearly interesting. Presumably this happened
> when it was bound,...

I'd like to know what the experts think about this...
It was already stated that normally the numbering was done
soon after composition. Would that be before or after binding?
Would it be unusual if the Ms stayed unbound for a long time?
I guess so. But what with the many foldouts? Could these
be not completely cut pages? Would they be  cut before
or after writing? What if the composer died before it
was finished? Is it obvious that I haven't got a clue? :-)

> But more logical is for the numbered pages to have gone
> missing well before it was bound.

Some pages have been cut out, in such a way that it is
very likely that this was done to a bound Ms.
Complete bifolios are missing, always from the centres
of quires (ff. 59-64, 109-110) and two quires
are missing, which seem to have consisted of one
bifolio each. It seems as if these have 'fallen'
out due to bad binding or rough handling, i.e. again
after binding. The page and quire numbering is consistent,
i.e. there is no reason to assume that the  numbering was
done after the folios went lost.

> I suspect these missing folios are still around somewhere
> in an out of the normal place

We can always hope. They are not likely to contain the secret
of how to read the Ms, but they could be in the hands of an
owner who would not object to having them dated!!
Always keep your eyes open near those second-hand book
stalls :-) :-)

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 25 09:14:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:45:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: French
In-Reply-To: <C1256484.002D9EA6.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> Indeed, and it may have spread North of the Alps too.
> The apparent inconsistency between Panofsky's German
> hypothesis and Toresella's Italian does no longer worry
> me. There was a lot of travelling and exchange of
> ideas between the two (and we can throw in France as
> well). Think of Duerrer (no, I'm not suggesting he wrote
> the VMs!!!!) or Agrippa (one of his apprentices might have...)

	A good place to mention one of my pet ideas.  Medieval and modern
French in spoken form do not clearly mark word divisions.  All syllables
are stressed about the same.  A language like that would be a more likely
candidate to place text divisions at syllable boundaries rather than word
boundaries.  This would explain the rather short "word" length of
Voynichese, as well as the very sharp dropoff of Gabriel's frequency
versus word length curves. 

	A French friend told me that the VMs script resembles some
medieval French scripts.  I have an intro with a specialist in medieval
paleography at the University of Aix-en-Provence.  I may send him some
VMs images for an opinion.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Apr 25 14:05:03 1997
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Subject: Re:Stars and Provenance, long (Re: Stars)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 16:54:32 +0100 ( + )
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      From Denis Mardle            25  April 1997

Rene comments
<<<
Some pages have been cut out, in such a way that it is
very likely that this was done to a bound Ms.
Complete bifolios are missing, always from the centres
of quires (ff. 59-64, 109-110) and two quires
are missing, which seem to have consisted of one
bifolio each. It seems as if these have 'fallen'
out due to bad binding or rough handling, i.e. again
after binding. The page and quire numbering is consistent,
i.e. there is no reason to assume that the  numbering was
done after the folios went lost.
             >>>

 Thanks Rene, I had not realised hat there was clear
evidence for folios being cut out or falling out.  I assumed
that a 'sample' selection had been prepared to tempt a
buyer or an analyst in the second half of the 16th century.
The frustrating thing is that f74 would have decided between
360 degrees and 365 days, also the 'can' position counts.
Also a complete count of paragraphs in the final text only
section would have narrowed down our options ( I believe
the total would be more than 365, probably about 400 )

Cheers    Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 26 18:35:20 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: Stars and Provenance, long (Re: Stars)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:47:29 -0600
Encoding: 9 TEXT
Status: OR

Denis and all:  I iterate that I'm certain we have one star name. The fish 
in f70v2, Pisces, are clearly joined by lines to a star. This star is 
al-rischa (the rope-knot) in my constellation atlas. The Currier is (I 
think) QR(or 2?)AE. I do not know the name of this star in Latin or Greek, 
etc.  I do think, however, that the star depicted in the VMS is that star. 
 That's a VMS "word" decoded?

Best to all
Don Latham

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 26 18:47:04 1997
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Subject: Re: Trigons, f93r, f1r
To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I have done almost nothing on Dr. Strong's papers for over a week due
> to lack of time.  I'll have to go back to compounde versus compound
> as well as the a or lack of it before that word and his omission of 'the'
> at one point.  It is going to be extremely difficult to get the slides
right.
> The extreme roughness of the cipher is also going to cause problems
> with statistical analysis, the polygraphic properties making things even
> worse.

Denis,  if any study of the Voynich were easy there would be no reason for
this conversation to take place, as minds long before us would have solved
the puzzle and placed their publications on record.  I take it you are
still working on f93r, which I did not even attempt to add to my analysis. 
Your input on this page will be a very valuable asset to me and other
researchers, so take heart that what you are doing is very much needed.

I get up from this computer some nights after long hours of looking at
numbers and my brain actually hurts.  I have a very good idea of what is
going on, but there is something still beyond my sight.  I can taste it,
but I can't realize it at this point.  All I know is that I am on the right
track.  Polyalphabetics are a pain in the brain.

Thanks for the info on folio 1r.  I am preparing a computer run on the
subject, and I will take these items into consideration.

Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 26 18:53:05 1997
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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:40:58 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re:  STARS
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Since the Voynich is not written as you and I would write, it could be
considered cipher, and cipher needs a key.  My suggestion is that the
points and centers of the stars indicate starting places in a cipher key. 
I haven't looked lately, but I doubt but that there are only three
variances on each page, occasionally four for long pages.  (Just a guess on
my part.)


This may be off the linguistic path so often followed, but did anyone
notice that the Voynich is written in cipher characters?  I have been
looking through the old mail files, and unless I missed it, we haven't yet
discovered any old or new languages that combine latin shorthand and other
similar characters together to form their alphabets.  This may be a minor
point to linguists, but to me it suggests the background of the writer as
one who is accustomed to a known tongue and a western style of writing,
i.e., European.  

Unless we can prove that a European shipwrecked on an exotic island in the
15th or 16th century and then miraculously found a way to send his book
home in a bottle,   then either many of us have the analytical details
wrong, or some of us are following paths that, while interesting, may well
have no bearing on the Voynich.  (Who knows, I could be one of those
people.)  This may be too strong a statement for many, and I may have
invoked upon myself the Wrath of Kahn from senior members, but I honestly
believe we need to have the manuscript examined by experts, and not just
journalists.  (For those of you who do not understand my play on words,
Kahn is and always has been a journalist, and the research flaws in his
book continue to be pointed out.  This is no more than a kindergarten
research source for the Voynich in my mind.)

D'imperio offers some of that expert advise, and bases her dating on the
majority of it.  She places the manuscript circa 1550 or earlier.  My
dating is 1538 to 1547.  Other dates place it in the 15th century, but
there are few arguments for an earlier date, and no arguments for a later
date.

My point is this:  The Voynich is an item that can be scientifically
examined, both physically and observationally.  We are the group most
interested in the subject, but we seem to be going different directions all
the time.  This is because people have tried to lay foundational work for
study of the manuscript but have been subdued by conversation on other
topics.  I believe we need a foundation of scientific and observational
information to build upon if we are to bring this work to fruition.  With
all the brain power and dedicated research this group has to offer, can you
imagine what we can do if we are all going the same direction, working on
the same set of facts as our guide?  

I see a need for concensus on these topics before viable work can proceed:

1.  Dating -within a time frame of 50 to 100 years.

2.  Origin - European, Indo-European, etc.

3.  Possible languages found within the time window, dating, and geographic
location.

4.  Identification of plant, animal and star names based within this time
window and cultural region.

5.  Educational profile for each country that falls within the the
geographic location and time window.

6.  List of possible authors for the time window and geographic location
specified.

Without some scientific foundation, any research we do is shooting at
falling stars, and your odds of hitting something are better in the
lottery.  (My personal numbers are 1-3-5-7-9-4.)    


Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 26 19:20:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:57:53 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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rmalek wrote:
> 
> Since the Voynich is not written as you and I would write, it could be
> considered cipher, 

	or then again, it could be an alphabet yet unread - there are in fact
other ancient items that no one has been able to quite come figure
out... many others that have been figured out, but rare nonetheless. 

> points and centers of the stars indicate starting places in a cipher 
> key.

	Sure, could be... or they could represent a symbolic means to identify
a specific celestial feature

> This may be off the linguistic path so often followed, but did anyone
> notice that the Voynich is written in cipher characters? 

	Really? Are the characters of a script unknown to the reader
automatically cipher?

> discovered any old or new languages that combine latin shorthand and other
> similar characters together to form their alphabets.

	And the Voynich's use is a FACT?
 
> wrong, or some of us are following paths that, while interesting, may well
> have no bearing on the Voynich.  

	ALL information, I think, is good information. As you study via cipher
strips, you reflect on the graphic points that someone else might not of
tied in. Just because we are all attacking this from different angles
doesn't mean that we can't openly discuss and share our views. Closing
the views to one method might be wise when resounding evidence indicates
doubtless success, but NONE of us have yet provided such evidence.
  
> I see a need for concensus on these topics before viable work can proceed:
> 
	I don't think anyone can supply Factual evidence to support more than
the speculations that the group has been working with for several years.
I am new to this group, and feel that the open conversations aren't
overly distracting... I like the concept of brainstorming, but I don't
like the idea of limiting the scope to one field of study.  I had asked
some questions about cryptology before that remain unanswered. Perhaps,
they can be answered now...

	Is there evidence of medieval cryptology where...

	-Hundreds of pictures were labled with the cypher;
	-Over a hundred pages were produced in one document; and
	-The cypher text was divided into quires by context?

	I don't recall any of the other points I had questioned earlier, but
basically feel that there is room to doubt cryptology plays a role.
I don't wish those who are working at this angle to feel defensive or
take offense to my opinion, as it is only that I don't see what you see.

> (Who knows, I could be one of those people.) 
Right, ... Keep posting your views - all of them.

			John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Apr 26 19:11:26 1997
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From: sulla@globaldialog.com (M. Sulla)
Subject: RE: Stars and Provenance, long (Re: Stars)
Status: OR

>Denis and all:  I iterate that I'm certain we have one star name. The fish
>in f70v2, Pisces, are clearly joined by lines to a star. This star is
>al-rischa (the rope-knot) in my constellation atlas. The Currier is (I
>think) QR(or 2?)AE. I do not know the name of this star in Latin or Greek,
>etc.  I do think, however, that the star depicted in the VMS is that star.
> That's a VMS "word" decoded?
>
>Best to all
>Don Latham

According to "Star Names, their Lore and Meaning", Dover,  Richard Hinckley
Allen,
p. 342,
re: Al Rischa:
Hipparchos and Ptolemy called it sundesmos ton ikhthuon or ton linon.
Cicero et al called it nodus, or nodus caelestis and nodus piscium
Pliny called it the commissura Piscium
The Almagest called it nodus duorum filorum.
The asterism of the threads was variously called vincla, alligamentum
linteum or luteum.  Hevelius subdivided it into the linum boream and
austrinum.

semper,
mark s.

sulla@globaldialog.com

rura cano rurisque deos.          --Tibullus


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Apr 27 20:56:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:51:33 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Rene & Gabriel,

	I know you're working on the entire text at present and was wondering
if you could expand upon the following thoughts. What I'd like to know
is if you think that I'm reading too much into the variations described
below...

	I've alluded to the possibility that the Z may not be the same
character throughout the text. If you look at folio 24 there are a few
distinct variations that demonstrate my thinking.. The first Z
is the one that all Z's are based in most transliterations, however the
next one doesn't have the centered ligature - but a definite O above the
'S' character. In others the ligature runs from the final C of the 'S'
character instead of the center. So on this page alone there seem to be
three variations of Z - or what I would rather it be-- Three variations
of S. 

<f24r.16;C>        ZAJ.OFCAE.8AE.8AJ.8AE-
<f24r.17;C>        2ZC9.OPAJ.ZAJ.QO7.OF9-
<f24r.18;C>        9SCOE.SOE.8AM.SOE.2-
<f24r.19;C>        9OE.FOE.SOE.ZOJ.OPAW9-

	Working on the possibility that all Z's are variations of S, I take my
usual approach - calling them vowel markers, so S = consonant, Z with
ligature in center = S + one vowel, Z with O = S+ 2nd vowel, Z with
ligature on right = S + 3rd vowel. (Hopefully, somewhere in the text
there are one or two other forms of Z).

	Now what of the Gallows that have the 'S' character running through
them? Could that then mean that the gallows are 'special' vowels. Say
diphthongs or 'iota'-types like the Russian Ya, Yu, Ye. 

	I know that the spelling that seems to appear with the S and Gallow
combinations don't flow quite right as sometimes the consonant only
version of S is followed by the Gallow/S combo. I also have to ask
myself more about the difference between a Z/O style and an S followed
by an O.

				John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 28 05:08:02 1997
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 Denis writes:

 > I assumed that a 'sample' selection had been prepared
 > to tempt a buyer or an analyst in the second half of the
 > 16th century.

 That a sample was taken is more than likely, since something
 seems to be missing from each section, with the apparent
 exception of the biological section.

> The frustrating thing is that f74 would have decided between
> 360 degrees and 365 days, also the 'can' position counts.

 Whereas the 360 seems to be the most likely option, because
 of the seemingly exact repetition of 30 'things' per circle,
 the 'things' of which there are 30 is not always the same.
 In Pisces a complete nymph is missing and the 30th labeled
 star is in the middle  (see below).
 In other pictures the labeled nymph has no star. And there
 is one case where a nymph with a star has no label....

> Also a complete count of paragraphs in the final text only
> section would have narrowed down our options ( I believe
> the total would be more than 365, probably about 400 )

 I once extrapolated to 384. Later I learned that in
 the Hebrew calendar some years have 384 days. The exact
 match is certainly a coincidence. But I don't know when
 this calendar was established and thus whether it might
 play a role in the Vms.

 Then Don Latham:

 > I'm certain we have one star name. The fish in f70v2,
 > Pisces, are clearly joined by lines to a star. This star
 > is al-rischa (the rope-knot) in my constellation atlas.
 > The Currier is (I think) QR(or 2?)AE. I do not know the
 > name of this star in Latin or Greek, etc.  I do think,
 > however, that the star depicted in the VMS is that star.

Certainly a very plausible theory. One big question
is whether the label (OPAEAE is probably closer to it)
is the name or some indication of its position:
Pisces 04 deg 04 min (fictitious coordinates).
A problem is that the star alrischa belongs with the
constellation of Pisces, not the sign. This bears
further reflection though.
Finally a counter-proposal: its special position also
makes it possible that this star is in fact Polaris....

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 28 05:17:01 1997
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John Groves expressed some worries about Currier
Z. The following is our (Gabriel and me) point of view:

The Z does indeed seem to occur in various shapes, but
several problems prevent us from taking that fully
into account in our transcription.
1) It seems impossible to 'draw a line' between the various
forms. D'Imperio lists a few, Frogguy allows a few different
transcriptions and Rayman has alluded at six variants. We could probably
imagine 2 or 3 different shapes. The exact number
seems uncertain, and the distinction between them 'fuzzy'.
It's very subjective.
2) The base form of the Z is an S with above it a curl that
looks like a small 9, with the loop not closed. It seems
occasionally to have been drawn with little pressure on the
pen. A very plausible (IOHO) theory is that we see variations
due to handwriting and/or pen pressure. Particularly the
one where the '9' descends to the baseline... Try and draw ten
or twenty of them quickly and see how close they all are.
There are a few aberrant forms (a wiggly line instead of
a curl) which we intend to indicate.
3) Apart from the shape of the curl, its position may play
a role too. If the curl is clearly on top of one of the
feet of the S, this is taken into account in the transcription
4) Other letters apart from Z show many variations.
The main one is the continuum of forms between R and 2 (and
beyond) and a similar one between J and 6. I could easily
distinguish four base forms for the R/2 series.

The problem with R/2 may be bigger than the one with
Z. In order to produce a transcription file that can
actually be used (without having a character set of 100
marginally different ones) or delivered in the foreseeable
future (the discussions would be endless and the work very
difficult) we stuck as much as possible to Currier's
list, but made sure any new characters are identified
properly.

In a future version of our EVMT pages this and similar problems
will receive some attention. Watch this space (but don't hold
your breath :-) )


Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 28 08:11:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:58:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Objet-  Phonetics -- new te
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On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> Now, there is in English a dental click, but it is
> an onomatopoea (tsk! tsk!). On hearing such a sound
> the scribe would probably write "tsk". If the click
> is bilabial (a sort of kissing sound) perhaps "pffk"
> and if nasalized "mpffk"... and so on and so on.
> 
> It's possible, and it would go some way to explaining
> the low 2nd-order entropy of the VMS, yes.

	This is what I've always thought is gong on in the VMs, along with
multiple choices.  Perhaps the scribe might have the choice of tsk, tsq,
ts!, and ts& for the dental click.  He'd have a similar set of choices for
all or many of the sounds.  

	That's the orthographic form of my EKT hypothesis.  I may do a
updated and less long-winded writeup of it.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 28 12:59:02 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 17:50:47 +0100 ( + )
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  From  Denis V Mardle           28 April 1997

  I had just finished searching for Currier OPAEAE in the files
when  Rene's mail arrived 
<<<
 Then Don Latham:

 > I'm certain we have one star name. The fish in f70v2,
 > Pisces, are clearly joined by lines to a star. This star
 > is al-rischa (the rope-knot) in my constellation atlas.
 > The Currier is (I think) QR(or 2?)AE. I do not know the
 > name of this star in Latin or Greek, etc.  I do think,
 > however, that the star depicted in the VMS is that star.

Certainly a very plausible theory. One big question
is whether the label (OPAEAE is probably closer to it)
is the name or some indication of its position:
Pisces 04 deg 04 min (fictitious coordinates).
A problem is that the star alrischa belongs with the
constellation of Pisces, not the sign. This bears
further reflection though.
Finally a counter-proposal: its special position also
makes it possible that this star is in fact Polaris....

Cheers, Rene
              >>>>>>>>>>

  There are more errors than I realised in the transcriptions
of the star and pharmaceutical sections. I have been trying
to clean up those where my pages from Newbold are clear.
The central star in Pisces is clearly OP*EAE with the * on a
crease - it is very likely to be an A.  My search produced the
following.   Zero for the lesser alternative OPOEAE.
 For OPAEAE ( the OPRAE in the file is definitely wrong )

<f58r.11;F>  has OPAEAE  as word 5 of 7

<f68v3.O.1;C>  Outer Circle words include OPAEAEAR

<f70v2.R1.1;C>  Outer ring last word but one is OPAEAE
                           ( last word is not O as on file but OPSAJ )

<f71r.15A;K>   Label OPAEAE9

<f72v1.R3.1;C>  My Libra transcription - Inner Ring First word
                                                               is OPAEAE

<f107r.22; T&F>  4OPAEAE  is word 5 of 10

 My clean up of the other Pisces star labels are ( using C & K and
my version ) - Outer ring  of 19 -
 OF9.O89   ;  OP9.AR   ;   OFAE9  ;  OPO89  ;  OPAE8  ;  OPAE8AR  ;
 OFO89  ;  OB92AJ  ;  SXC9  ;  OPAE9  ;  OPAE.ARAR  ;  OPAE89  ;
 OFCOE9  ;  OF989  ;  OFCC2  ;  OPAEAK  ;  9FAR9  ;  OPAR  ;  OP9

Inner Ring of 10 -
  9FOEAM  ;  OPAR.AJ  ;  OPARAE  ;  OPAEAR  ;  OPAEAJ  ;
  8OEARAJ  ;  OFARAJ  ;  OPCO2AE  ;  2AEOE2  ;  OFAE.8AE

I have  also produced some interesting counts on positions of
labels in words.  OE89 for instance ( a label on f99v) is always
the end of a word or more often a word on its own when, of
16 occurrences 10 are at the end of a line and one at the end
of para 2 on f99v whereas text ( less plant labels ) ends the page
with ZOE89 on f82v;  SOE89 similarly on f89v1 and OEFCCOE89
on f99v.   There seem to be about 28 different starts to OE89  -
 S, Z, F, E, 4, 2, 8, B, SC, OF, OP, ZC, 9P, 4F, 9F,4X, 8SC, ZCC,
 BZC, OPC, 4OF, 8AT, EFC, FOZ, OFC,9PCC, ORZC, and OEFCC.

OPAE on the other hand has various endings plus a few starters
plus both on occasions .   4OPAE is as common as OPAE
especially in the biological section..   There are at least 25
labels that start OPAE.

I intend to study the structure of labels and the differences
against text structure when I have the time

Cheers Denis 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Apr 27 21:20:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:11:57 -0700
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Well, that is a novel theory. And let me apply it...

Suppose the language is one of those strange ones,
with plenty of clicks, glottalized consonants,
creaky vowels, and I'll throw in tones for good
measure. !Xu~ for instance, which is rumoured to
have some 120 consonants, about eighty of them 
clicks (it also has 24 vowels). And here are our
poor scribes, writing down what the author says.

*Necessarily* they will use more than one letter
for most of those sounds. Just like !x (a click,
I forgot which click, though) takes two characters
to write. 

I will take an example from a much, much less
exotic language: Fijian. All Fijian voiced 
consonants are prenasalized. That means that
the sounds of b, d, g are ALWAYS preceded by
a nasal. That nasal is not written in Fijian
(the missionaries did a clever job of adapting
the Latin alphabet), so you write: na yaqona,
na baqa, Nadi, for what is pronounced na yanggona,
nambangga, Nandi.

Imagine now a language with clicks, with the poor
scribes speaking a plain old language without any.
Now, there is in English a dental click, but it is
an onomatopoea (tsk! tsk!). On hearing such a sound
the scribe would probably write "tsk". If the click
is bilabial (a sort of kissing sound) perhaps "pffk"
and if nasalized "mpffk"... and so on and so on.

It's possible, and it would go some way to explaining
the low 2nd-order entropy of the VMS, yes.

PS. I'm not saying that the VMS is written in a language
with clicks, let alone !Xu~. Only that it could be written
in a language phonologically aberrant and not properly 
reduced to writing.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Apr 28 21:29:02 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 29 03:32:03 1997
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Dear all,

Don replies to my:
>> Finally a counter-proposal: its special position also
>> makes it possible that this star is in fact Polaris....
with:

> But, if it is Polaris, why in Pisces, and why the lines from
> the fish's mouths to the star?

I agree it is difficult.
To the first question: why Pisces? I have to 'wimp out'
by asking: where *would* it belong? It could be there
because Pisces is the first sign in this list, which
in itself is strange...
The second question is even more difficult to answer.
It does not make much sense. Again I have to turn to
a question myself: why are there two lobsters in Cancer
and why do they also have a rope between their mouths???
This whole Ms makes no sense :-)

Anyway, certainly alrischa is more plausible but the one
problem I see there is: why does such a minor star take
such a prominent position?
What is the exact meaning of the rope and the knot?
Does it have anything to do with the crossing of the
equator and the ecliptic? If so, there is a small link
to Polaris. I have to admit this is very tenuous....

On my consideration that Mizar (seen in the stars section)
might be in the lost Capricorn or Aquarius pictures
I have reached an impasse. Mizar culminates when the
sign of Sagittarius rises at the Eastern horizon.
When I checked again the Sagittarius picture I saw that
the quality of my Yale copy is prohibitive. There is one
nymph on the outer full circle (in the lower left quadrant)
that could be holding a double star, but there is a
dark smudge (which is not a hole) near the star.
Could anyone check this out?? As I said: I'm stuck here.
And I agree that it's a bit of wild speculation about
the meaning of the zodiac and stars sections. It would
be a step forward if this were true though...

I checked a few of the Saturn/Jupiter conjunctions
mentioned by Denis Mardle. The one in 1504 is really
spectacular, as Jupiter, Saturn and Mars are close
together inside the rectangle of Gemini for about
two months. So Castor and Pollux are there too, and
at the end of January the full moon joins in as well.
I am not sure about the date system used by the
S/W (Skymap).


That's all for now,
      Cheers, Rene


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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: ADD to Trigons and Re: STARS
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 14:48:38 +0100 ( + )
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     From  Denis V Mardle    29 April  1997

 Re Trigons 
<<<
 The conjunctions were in Pisces in 1464, 1524 and 1583
in Cancer in 1444, 1504 and 1563 in Scorpio in 1425,1484
and 1544
 I have still to run the program to tie in Mars and Venus
    >>>

    I forgot to mention that all three
Zodiac Constellations, namely  Scorpio, Pisces and Cancer
are all WATER signs, a situation that goes on for nearly 200
years with the other signs behaving similarly.  This cannot
be a coincidence and suggests that the Ancients named
the four signs to tie in with the conjunctions a very long time ago.

 W.r.t. label counts the OPAEAE search was on the whole file
but counts on OPAE and OE89 were only done excluding
f1-f57 and f103 to the end.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 29 11:11:04 1997
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Subject: Re: Stars, and some planets too
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:09:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <C1256488.00264BE2.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> from "rzandber@esoc.esa.de" at Apr 29, 97 09:29:49 am
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> > But, if it is Polaris, why in Pisces, and why the lines from
> > the fish's mouths to the star?
> 
> I agree it is difficult.
> To the first question: why Pisces? I have to 'wimp out'
> by asking: where *would* it belong? It could be there
> because Pisces is the first sign in this list, which
> in itself is strange...

A possible linkage is that the First Point of Aries--the Vernal
Equinox--was in Pisces during this period. Just as in our current epoch we
are, or are moving into, the Age of Aquarius, the previous 2000 years were
part of the Age of Pisces. This is directly tied to which star is the pole
star. Astrologers would have been the first to be aware that Polaris was
becoming the pole star as early as 1000AD, when it was still several
degrees from the pole. It was usable for navigational purposes as the pole
star as early as the 14th century. And Columbus notes using it, and his
awareness that it was actually several degrees from the true pole, in his
log from 1492.

In a nutshell, Polaris is tied to Pisces because it became usable as the
pole star when the Vernal Equinox was in that sign. 

Ironically, its closest approach to the pole won't be until 2100AD, which
has the Equinox in Aquarius no matter how you define the boundaries of the
constellations.

-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 29 13:50:04 1997
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From: Brian Smith <briansm@MICROSOFT.com>
To: "'Dennis'" <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: RE: VMs Historical Precedents (long)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:42:23 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Dennis [SMTP:ixohoxi@micro-net.com]
> Sent:	Friday, April 18, 1997 7:14 AM
> To:	voynich@rand.org
> Subject:	VMs Historical Precedents (long)
> ...
> ******************* BALNEOLOGICAL (BATH) DRAWINGS  ******************
> ______________________________________________________________________
> From: reeds@research.att.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 21:31 EST
> To: <@proxy.research.att.com:voynich@rand.org>
> Subject: Weird King Wenceslaus
> 
> 
> While browsing thru' my wife's Thorndyke (History of Magic and
> Experimental Science, 1923-1958, Columbia U. Press, in a zillion
> volumes) vol III, page 590, I saw this passage:
> 	
> 	That Wenceslaus or Wenzel, Holy Roman emperor from 1378
> 	to 1400, and king of Bohemia until 1419, was among the
> 	number of rulers devoted to astrology is indicated by a finely
> 	illustrated manuscript preserved in the national library at
> 	Vienna.[ Vienna 2351 (Philos. 201), 14th century.]   It
> 	bears the dates, 1392 and 1393; has an illuminated initial W
> 	with a man in stocks in it; and the pictures of tubs and
> 	bathing girls which characterize Wenzel's Bible and other 
> 	manuscripts.  It was accordingly described as adorned with 
> 	pictures commemorating the imprisonment of Wenzel and his
> 	liberation by aid of the bath keeper Susanna, but this...
> 
> Tubs and bathing girls, h'm?  Does anyone know what these
> Wenceslausian
> balneological illustrations actually look like?  Are there modern
> reproductions of (say) Wenzel's Bible?  Did Vienna 2351 survive the
> war?
> 
> I have been meaning to send some mail on this subject.  A few months
> ago I found a large picture book containing hundreds of pictures from
> Wenzel's manuscripts:
> 
> Author:       Krasa, Josef.
> Title:        Rukopisy Vaclava IV.
> Pub. Info.:   [Praha] Odeon [1971].
> 
> ("Rokopis" means "manuscript" in Czech).  Most of the pictures are
> from his Bible, but several are from the two surviving astrological
> manuscripts, 2352 and 2378 (no mention is made of 2351, maybe someone
> has a typo).  All of the manuscripts are typical richly illuminated
> manuscripts with the one odd feature that many of the marginal
> illustrations contain "bathing girls."  But I don't mean girls taking
> baths -- they are young women bath _attendants_, usually shown wearing
> thin white dresses and carrying buckets or tending to a male figure.
> I found the pictures entirely unlike the VMS both in style and
> content.  The primary illustrations in the astrological manuscripts
> were fairly typical zodiac and concentric circle calendrical diagrams
> (showing the controlling planet, lucky days, etc) not unlike VMS but
> no more alike so than others I have seen.
> 
> No one apparently knows the story behind the bath attendants in the
> Wenzel manuscripts.  Each source I read gave a different theory: an
> allegory of baptism or holy cleanliness; his mistress; his wife; an
> attendant who saved his life.
> 
> But I found a more promising book along the lines of this message:
> 
> From: reeds@research.att.com
> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 20:35 EST
> To: <@proxy.research.att.com:voynich@rand.org>
> Subject: Voynich discourse (long & weighty)
> 
> Rene Zandbergen writes (about Reeds on Thorndyke on Wenzel):
> ...
> > Jim, your friend Sergio Toresella (sp?) mentioned that he had
> > seen similarities to the 'balneological section' in Italian
> > manuscripts. Maybe this is not so uncommon after all?
> 
> Toresella is thinking of some late 1400's books describing the public
> thermal baths of Italy.   This sub-genre of topographical book has,
> typically, sections describing the special medicinal properties of 
> the waters in each of several towns.  Each section might have an
> illustration
> showing what the baths were like.  The page layout and the
> architecture
> is similar to what we see in the VMS.  
> 
> It is a reproduction of a 15c copy of "De Balneis Puteolanis" which
> was written by a Petrus de Ebulo  c. 1200.  The content was very
> reminiscent of an herbal -- a picture of the bath and a page of text
> describing it physically and its healing properties.  The pictures
> generally showed a large tub surrounded by pillars or other building
> elements.  Some of the tubs were shown being fed by streams flowing
> down from mountains in the background or from pipes.  A few naked
> figures stood in each tub, usually men but sometimes women.  All of
> the tubs were single-sex.  The style of the illustrations was unlike
> the VMS but I came away feeling fairly confident that the
> "balneological" section of the VMS is, in fact, balneological.  "De
> Balneis Puteolanis" would not be at all out of place in a work
> otherwise about herbs and astrology and the VMS pages showing large
> tubs stretching across the width of the page would not be out of place
> in "De Balneis" (if drawn by a more skilled artist).
> 
> While on the subject of precedents, I might as well report on another
> book I have read:
> 
> Title:        The book of secrets of Albertus Magnus of the virtues of
> herbs,
>               stones and certain beasts, also A book of the marvels of
> the
>               world. Edited by Michael R. Best and Frank H. Brightman.
> Pub. Info.:   Oxford [Eng.] Clarendon Press, 1973.
> 
> Thorndike, in his long discussion of the work in volume 2, chapter
> lxiii refers to this as "The Experiments of Albert" or "Liber
> aggregationis."  It was a best-seller in the middle ages and
> renaissance.  While out of print right now, it is not too hard to
> find.  It is divided into four sections: 1) herbal, 2) recipes
> involving stones, 3) strange habits and recipes involving various
> animals, 4) astrology.  The recipes are very similar in length to the
> paragraphs in the final section of the VMS, for example:
> 
> If thou wilt that a man suffer no pain, nor be tormented.
> Take the stone which is called Memphites, of the city which is called
> Memphis, and it is a stone of such virtue as Aaron and Hermes say: if
> it be broken, and mixed with water, and given to him to drink, which
> should be burned, or suffer any torments, that drink induceth so great
> unableness to feel, that he that suffereth, feeleth neither pain nor
> tormenting.
> 
> This is probably the work that Robert Babcock was thinking about in
> this old email:
> 
> From reeds Wed Jul 13 22:53 EDT 1994
> To: voynich@rand.org
> Subject: Voynich MS exists
> 
> I talked a bit with the head of research, Robert Babcock...
> ...He thinks that if deciphered we would not learn very
> much: the plain text is probably something already known (he used the
> example of Albertus Magnus).  He implored me to decipher it, then
> Yale would stop being bothered by silly visitors.
> 
> The Book of Secrets is not the VMS (it is too short and missing a
> balneological section) but it provides an interesting whole-work
> precedent for a mish-mash of different kinds of medicinal information
> published as one work.  It is mostly made up of unattributed sections
> from other works which were combined and given the stamp of wisdom and
> secrecy by the false attribution to Albertus.  Based on its
> popularity, the clever person who compiled the Book of Secrets clearly
> understood the book market of his time.  But maybe not as clever as a
> competitor who had the idea of re-writing similar stolen material
> using mysterious symbols.
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 29 23:11:02 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Apr 29 23:17:05 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: "'Adams Douglas'" <adamsd@cts.com>,
        "rzandber@esoc.esa.de"
	 <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Cc: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: Stars, and some planets too
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:12:43 -0600
Encoding: 24 TEXT
Status: OR


A possible linkage is that the First Point of Aries--the Vernal
Equinox--was in Pisces during this period. Just as in our current epoch we
are, or are moving into, the Age of Aquarius, the previous 2000 years were
part of the Age of Pisces. This is directly tied to which star is the pole
star. Astrologers would have been the first to be aware that Polaris was
becoming the pole star as early as 1000AD, when it was still several
degrees from the pole. It was usable for navigational purposes as the pole
star as early as the 14th century. And Columbus notes using it, and his
awareness that it was actually several degrees from the true pole, in his
log from 1492.

In a nutshell, Polaris is tied to Pisces because it became usable as the
pole star when the Vernal Equinox was in that sign. 

Ironically, its closest approach to the pole won't be until 2100AD, which
has the Equinox in Aquarius no matter how you define the boundaries of the
constellations.

oh. drat. A case can be made. Ok. Since I don't have my Dover stars of the aincients, what's the arabic, etc name for Polaris?

Best, Don



From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr 30 02:56:01 1997
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Dear all,

I have a distinct hunch that recently, somewhere, an
advertisement for this group was put up. It must have
been a very good one because of all the new joiners.
Unfortunately it would appear to give voynich@rand.org
as the signup address instead of voynich-request@rand.org.
If it was one of us, could the person involved please
rectify it, to save poor Jim G. all the manual hassle involved?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Apr 30 03:26:01 1997
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Subject: RE: Stars, and some planets too
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Don wrote:

> oh. drat. A case can be made. Ok. Since I don't have my Dover
> stars of the aincients, what's the arabic, etc name for Polaris?

Because Adams wrote:

> A possible linkage is that the First Point of Aries--the Vernal >
Equinox--was in Pisces during this period. Just as in our
> current epoch we are, or are moving into, the Age of Aquarius, > the
previous 2000 years were part of the Age of Pisces. This
> is directly tied to which star is the pole star....

> In a nutshell, Polaris is tied to Pisces because it became
> usable as the pole star when the Vernal Equinox was in that
> sign.

Of course, the ecliptic doesn't play a role in the location of
the pole, so I'll be the first to admit that the link between
Polaris and Pisces is rather tenuous. And since Al-rischa
appears to be one of the 1025 stars in the Almagest, it is
not a totally farfetched idea that it might be shown here.
So, two cases can be made and both have their points.
I would say al-rischa's points are stronger. Still,
some alternative names for Polaris would be useful to
have.

Cheers, Rene


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From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  1 08:11:03 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: SARU and KEKO Business
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SARU = MONKEY in Japanese
KEKO = MONKEY in Hawaiian

    Gabriel, Jacques, and I have been working on this.

*Low Entropy Languages in Phonemic vs Syllabic Notation*
*Measures of Relative Second-Order Entropy*
*Japanese*
*Japanese Results*
*Hawaiian*
*Hawaiian Results*
*General Discussion*
*The Effect of Word Divisions*
*The Effect of Syllable Divisions*
*Other Ideas*

--------------------------------------------------------------

*Low Entropy Languages in Phonemic vs Syllabic Notation*

    One may write Japanese in Latin characters (romaji) or in syllabic 
scripts (hiragana and katakana, the kana).  In romaji Japanese is a 
low-entropy language because of a relatively low phonemic inventory 
and severe phonotactic constraints.  A Japanese syllable may begin in 
zero or one consonant (counting ts, ry, and ky as one consonant), have 
one vowel, and end with nothing or -n (although the following 
syllable's consonant may be doubled).  (There are at least some long 
and short vowels in Japanese, which complicates this a little.) 

    However, the very fact of these severe phonotactic constraints 
makes only a limited number of syllables possible in Japanese and 
therefore makes a syllabic script feasible.  I thought that Japanese 
in kana would have a much higher relative h2 than Japanese in romaji. 
Gabriel is working on this. 

    It then occured to me.that Hawaiian has even more severe 
phonotactic constraints, and that one ought to be able to write 
Hawaiian in a syllabic script.  In Hawaiian a syllable may begin in 
zero or one consonant, have only one vowel, and may only end in 
nothing!  Hawaiian has a much more limited phonemic inventory than 
Japanese.   Hawaiian is especially significant because Bennett 
compared Voynichese to Hawaiian and noted that they had similar 
entropies.  We've often said that some Polynesian languages are the 
only natural languages with second-order entropies as low as 
Voynichese.  Therefore I decided to compare Hawaiian in phonemic 
versus syllabic notation. 


*Measures of Relative Second-Order Entropy*

Gabriel wrote:

    Looking at the  % rel h2, I wonder what it actually means. Have 
you tried the % from the maximum entropy for that order? for example % 
of h1 of the total h1 (which is actually h0) or h1(max). Interestingly 
the h2(max) is not h1, but the log2(total_possible_digraphs), etc. 
more about this below. 

    You also mention that eva is more redundant than frogguy. Here I 
calculated the % of h2 from the total h2 that could be delivered by 
each alphabet. Using n-graphs with an alphabet of m characters, 
hn(max) is 

         log2(m^n)

and the %hn(max) is:

         (hn/log2(m^n))/100

    Using the figures you provided, m and h2, I calculated:

            eva = 23.69%
            fro = 24.84%

which is just over 1% difference... Now, is this statistically 
significant? I haven't got a clue. I am not sure what sort of 
statistics should be used here. Maybe somebody else in the list 
(Jacques?, Jim R?) has some more clear ideas? 

    Therefore I calculated both statistics.



*Japanese*

    Gabriel did this.  Here is the Genji monogatari's [Tale of Genji, 
a classic Japanese novel mostly written in hiragana] first 4 parts 
from: http://www.sainet.or.jp/~eshibuya/hp.html 01 Kiritsubo 02 
Hahakigi 03 Utsusemi 04 Yugao 

    So the "kana" output is not kana of course but an arbitrary 
substitution so that Monkey can be applied. 


*Japanese Results*

                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------


genji1.rom     22   32000   4.459   3.763   2.677   1.086   28.9   30.0
genji1.kan     71   20622   6.150   4.764   3.393   1.370   28.8   27.6

genji2.rom     20   31505   4.322   3.751   2.627   1.124   30.0   30.4
genji2.kan     71   20622   6.150   4.764   3.393   1.370   28.8   27.6

genji3.rom     20   29474   4.322   3.749   2.639   1.110   29.6   30.5
genji3.kan     70   18574   6.129   4.709   3.410   1.298   27.6   27.8

genji4.rom     20   32000   4.322   3.750   2.641   1.109   29.6   30.6
genji4.kan     70   20386   6.129   4.716   3.464   1.252   26.5   28.3

genji5.rom     20   27064   4.322   3.744   2.630   1.114   29.7   30.4
genji5.kan     70   17096   6.129   4.698   3.362   1.337   28.4   27.4


.rom - Japanese in romaji (Latin characters)
.kan - Japanese in furigana (hiragana or katakana equivalent, syllabic
        notation that MONKEY understands)

*Hawaiian*

    I did the Hawaiian.  Hawaiian has the following phonemes: 

        Consonants:  h   k   l   m   n  p  w  '(glottal stop)
        Vowels:  a  e  i  o  u  A  E  I  O  U  (cap's means long)

    However, the difference between long and short vowels is often not 
indicated.  Also, the glottal stop is often not written.  Obviously 
both of these things need to be written, since even with them Hawaiian 
has a rather limited phonemic inventory! 

    I got my Hawaiian texts from all the articles in this issue of a 
Hawaiian newspaper. 

http://www.olelo.hawaii.edu/OH/nmok/


    I changed it to the notation above. I simply removed all English, 
Japanese, and other foreign words until the character set (the number 
of characters MONKEY showed) matched my Hawaiian notation.  I also 
removed all numbers. I devised a syllabic script for Hawaiian using 
characters that MONKEY recognizes.  

    Bennett did his Hawaiian study with a limited Hawaiian orthography 
that did not recognize vowel length or the glottal stop.  Therefore, I 
ran statistics both on Hawaiian in limited phonemic and syllabic 
spellings, with long/short vowels not separated and glottal stop not 
indicated, (.hlp for phonemic, .hls for syllabic) and in full phonemic 
and syllabic notation (.hap for phonemic and .has for syllabic). 

*Hawaiian Results*

                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

Hawaiian:
bennett.hlp    13   15000   3.700   3.200   2.454   0.746   23.3   33.2
namaexp.hlp    13   13097   3.700   3.224   2.437   0.787   24.4   32.9
namaexp.hls    39    9533   5.285   3.816   2.929   0.887   23.2   27.7
namaexp.hap    19   13473   4.248   3.575   2.650   0.925   25.9   31.2
namaexp.has    77    9160   6.267   4.361   3.162   1.200   27.5   25.2

Voynich:
bennett.ben    21   10000?  4.392   3.660   2.220   1.440   39.3   25.3
voyb.cur       26   10764   4.700   3.416   2.225   1.191   34.9   23.7
voyb.fsg       19   13434   4.248   3.470   2.187   1.283   37.0   25.7
voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   1.778   46.1   23.7
voyb.guy       15   14524   3.907   3.351   1.939   1.412   42.1   24.8

.hlp - Hawaiian limited phonemic (like Bennett)
.hls - Hawaiian limited syllabic

.hap - Hawaiian full phonemic, with spaces
.has - Hawaiian full syllabic, with spaces
.hpx - Hawaiian full phonemic, without spaces
.hsx - Hawaiian full syllabic, without spaces

.ben - Bennett
.cur - Currier
.fsg - FSG
.eva - EVA
.guy - (basic) Frogguy


*General Discussion*

    I find this quite puzzling.  From hap to has, both relative h2 
measures actually *decrease* (relative entropy decreases, that is). 
The two measures go different directions for hlp to hls.  The relative 
measures do not change as much as I would have thought in either case. 

    If one uses the (h1-h2)/h1*100 relative entropy measure, Voynichese 
still has a much lower relative entropy ( (h1-h2)/h1*100 is much 
higher) than Hawaiian.  If one uses % max. h2, the picture is mixed, 
but in most cases the Hawaiian entropies are higher than Voynichese. 

    There's a relative entropy *decrease* going from Romaji to Kana -
which one would not expect!  Of course, h2 and h1-h2 do increase from 
Romaji to Kana. 

*The Effect of Word Divisions*

    An idea I've had.  In going from phonemic to syllabic, you make 
the text shorter, you pack more information into fewer characters -- 
but you do that by using more characters!  Perhaps that's why you come 
out about the same on relative entropy. 

    If that were the case, leaving out the spaces ought to make the 
entropies even more similar.  I made MONKEY runs leaving out the 
spaces to test this. 


                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

genji1.rom     22   32000   4.459   3.763   2.677   1.086   28.9   30.0
genji1.kan     71   20622   6.150   4.764   3.393   1.370   28.8   27.6

genji1.rmx     21   26106   4.392   3.803   2.935   0.868   22.8   33.4
genji1.knx     70   14051   6.129   5.666   4.330   1.337   23.6   35.3

namaexp.hap    19   13473   4.248   3.575   2.650   0.925   25.9   31.2
namaexp.has    77    9160   6.267   4.361   3.162   1.200   27.5   25.2

namaexp.hpx    18   10433   4.170   3.622   2.936   0.687   19.0   35.2
namaexp.hsx    76    6120   6.248   5.156   3.982   1.174   22.8   31.9


.rmx - Japanese romaji, without spaces
.knx - Japanese kana, without spaces

.hap - Hawaiian full phonemic, with spaces
.has - Hawaiian full syllabic, with spaces
.hpx - Hawaiian full phonemic, without spaces
.hsx - Hawaiian full syllabic, without spaces


    With this, you get a slight relative entropy increase from romaji 
to kana, but only a slight one.  The overall level of relative entropy 
increases in removing the spaces.  With Hawaiian, there's still a net 
relative entropy decrease from phonemic to syllabic. 

    I would be more careful with that conclusion. If you do a few more 
entropy orders, then you will see that there is a crossover point 
between h3 and h4 after which the hiragana has lower entropy than the 
romaji. I mentioned this in my previous message but it was perhaps a 
bit cryptic. I suspect that this crossover has to do with the word 
length in both versions of the same text. 

    One could plot hn vs. n and see what happens. I am sure of the 
crossover between kana and romaji and I wonder if that is also the 
case for Hawaiian and all the rest. 

    This is quite unexpected and it is getting very interesting!

    I've read that the  higher-order entropies of MONKEY are unreliable 
in its present form.  Which orders can you trust? Are even the second-
order entropies reliable? 

*The Effect of Syllable Divisions*

     I've had this thought.  For Hawaiian and Japanese, the 
measures of relative second-order entropy are not as much
different for phonemic versus syllabic orthographies as one might
expect.  Does this mean that combinations of two syllables (eg.
yama in Japanese, wiki in Hawaiian) are as repetitious and fixed
as phonemes in syllables?  It seems to me that is what the
numbers say.

    I think (but as you know I have no expertise in this area at all, 
so I may be talking nonsense) that with the phonemic vs. syllabic 
problem here is more complex than we are thinking. Ok let's take 
"yamamoto" in romaji, and the hirgana (or better, this should be 
called "furigana" as it is the way it sounds independently of being in 
Kanji or hiragana itself): <ya><ma><mo><to> When we are analysing the 
2nd order entropy we are looking for the distributions of "ya" "am" 
"mo" "ot" "to" while for furigana it is "<ya><ma>" "<ma><mo>" 
"<mo><to>". For half (or so) of the romaji, we are dealing with 
combinations of letters "am", "ot" that do not exist in Japanese, that 
is , they are not romaji (in some sense). So the 2nd order entropy in 
one type of text has nothing to do with the 2nd order in the other. In 
the case of the 2nd order of the romaji text is in principle "near" in 
meaning to the 1st entropy of the furigana, but about only half of the 
duplets correspond to furigana. 


*Other Ideas*

    I don't think the entropy is a useless piece of information.  I 
think we've learned some very useful things from the recent MONKEY 
business.   The various entropy measures mean something, but they may 
not be what we need.  Some time ago, Jacques talked about using a 
correlation coefficient vector. 

    Overall, we are still puzzled at these results.  We need comments 
from the group.  I will provide more details on the Hawaiian stuff to 
anyone who wants them, and Gabriel will do this for Japanese. 

Dennis



From reeds Thu May  1 08:30:35 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9705010830.ZM29402@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:30:35 -0400
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "SARU and KEKO Business" (May  1,  8:02)
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Just 2 tiny comments about Dennis's long letter.

1.  I think if one is dividing entropies or entropy differences to get
relative entropy quantities, it is relatively meaningless for us to use
"maximium possible" alphabet-size based denominators like log(A) , the
biggest h2 can be in an alphabet of size A.  Far better would be to use
the long-range entropy of the language in question, if only we could
measure it.  A ratio like h2/hinfinity tells us how much of the redundancy
"lives" in letter-pair statistics, etc.  (The numerical value of A is
an obtrusion especially obvious in VMS studies: nobody knows what it actually
is, so what's the sense in dividing by its logarithm?)

2.  I would not trust h4 of higher-order entropy values computed by the 
"direct" method of tabulating 4-grams and using x log(x) formulas, with
sample sizes of the sort forced on us by the VMS.  As I mentioned several 
years ago there are better methods, such as "Lempel-Ziv comma counting". 
We can test any proposed entropy measuring method on samples run off of
models with known entropy; maybe we should do this.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997: 
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  1 08:59:02 1997
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Jim Reeds writes:

> We can test any proposed entropy measuring method on samples
> run off of models with known entropy; maybe we should do this.

Jim,
do I understand correctly that here you suggest computer-
generated text of which we know the higher-order entropies
because of the selected algorithm? (That should be the
other way around though. Are algorithms available to generate
text with user-requested antropy values?)
That would imply that a text of rather extensive length
would be required (tens or hundreds of Mbytes, rather
than the odd few tens of kbytes) and therefore the entropy
calculation shoud run in parallel with the text generation
(i.e. the text does not have to be saved on file).

This is a slight complication and e.g. MONKEY as we know
and love it will not allow this....

It sounds like a very good idea, more useful beyond the
immediate question of the VMs language...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  1 09:50:03 1997
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Date: 1 May 1997 09:43:30 -0500
From: "Guy Thibault" <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
Subject: Memo-More phonetics & monke
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@RAND.ORG>
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                     Memo-More phonetics & monkey business
  MEMORANDUM

Following the thread on phonetics and entropy...

Maybe the stats are too  restricted in scope and fail to show
a "bigger pattern"...  Meaning that we might fail to see a
"strange attractor" in the deluge of numbers. We might need a
mesure that would encapsulate MANY information.

On the asumption that each language has its own rythme, tempo if you
will. And that hearing a language one is able to classify or guess its
probable origin (grec, latin, as when you hear german, and sweedish, 
even if you don't speak it you hear its different. But take german and
danish and Afrikan and you see similitudes).

With the research in genetic algorythm and pattern recognition
done in order to allow a computer to recognize word in a spoken
sentence... There must be some research in being to recognize
which spoken language the computer is dealing with? I guess
for simplification only english is being used but one day a 
"protocol droid" as C3P0, or a multi lingual HAL-9000
will need to be able to figure out what language to use according
to some signature. 

So, I propose this as a test:

I will record sound of phonme in wav or mid files. 
This will give me a pool of sound file, one per phonme.

then, you concatenate the sound file according to the VMS
transliteration. You must first assign a symbol from the VMS to 
each phonme (randomly? don't know yet).

You play the file. 

Will the hear discern a pattern?
I'll try this with english en french phonetic text (also with 
phonme randomly assigned to symbol?)

There might be a feature hidden somewhere in there and the human
hear might pick it up.

Any ideas on this?

Anyone know about algorythms to identify the signature of a 
spoken language? I seems to recall that the older languages
have more vowels... Such as souaeli, Inouktitut... Yet there
is mic mac and grec!

???






From reeds Thu May  1 11:17:57 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:17:57 -0400
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        "Re: SARU and KEKO Business" (May  1, 14:53)
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On May 1, 14:53, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> 
> Jim,
> do I understand correctly that here you suggest computer-
> generated text of which we know the higher-order entropies
> because of the selected algorithm? (That should be the
> other way around though. Are algorithms available to generate
> text with user-requested antropy values?)

There are some stochastic processes ("source models" in a different jargon),
such as Markov chains, for which some of the entropies can be calculated
directly by formula, without recourse to running off text samples. For others
(such as the "Hidden Markov Models" beloved by speech processors, which
Krischer thought might be useful for VMS use) there are Monte Carlo
computations which are more efficient than running off text samples. So the
proposal is, for each of several different processes, to (1) determine the
entropies (h1, h2, ... , hinfinity) theoretically or semi-theoretically, (2)
run off one or more samples of a 1/4 megabyte, (3) seeing how well each of
several proposed entropy estimating formulae work.  

I do not know if there are interesting processes for which one can
specify h1, h2, h3, and hinfinity (say) in advance, specify particular
parameters (transition probabilities, etc.) to match the given h values,
and then run off a sample.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997: 
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  1 12:41:01 1997
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Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:27:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Guy Thibault <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
cc: Voynich List <voynich@RAND.ORG>
Subject: Re: Memo-More phonetics & monkey
In-Reply-To: <n1349642623.16054@artefact.qc.ca>
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On 1 May 1997, Guy Thibault wrote:

> So, I propose this as a test:
> 
> I will record sound of phonme in wav or mid files. 
> This will give me a pool of sound file, one per phonme.
> 
> then, you concatenate the sound file according to the VMS
> transliteration. You must first assign a symbol from the VMS to 
> each phonme (randomly? don't know yet).
> 
> You play the file. 
> 
> Will the hear discern a pattern?
> I'll try this with english en french phonetic text (also with 
> phonme randomly assigned to symbol?)
> 
> There might be a feature hidden somewhere in there and the human
> hear might pick it up.


    Hi, Guy!

    It sounds like a good idea!  However, I think you could do it
with less trouble.

    EVA is designed to be pronounceable.  Also, there are speech
synthesis programs available.  Some places to look:

comp.speech WWW site
http://svr-www.eng.cam.ac.uk/comp.speech/

http://garbo.uwasa.fi/windows/util.html
cmate10.zip     Chat room text-to-speech utility
wsp300.zip      English text-to-speech application, G.Kung

http://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/sb.html
vm110.zip  Voicemaker, freeware text-to-speech player/recorder 


    You could find a program that would pronounce phonemes according to
some scheme.  Then you could write a BITRANS script to translate EVA to
whatever pronounciation scheme you wanted.  The speech synthesis program
would then pronounce it for you.

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  1 12:08:02 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:42:01 +0000
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Subject: New version of VMSVIEW
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Hi all,

I updated VMSVIEW (now version 4).

>From the DOC file:

What's new in version 4  (1 May 1997)

* I tested VMSVIEW under DOS, Win3.1 and Win95... you use it at 
your own risk!
* Highlights up to 10 user defined strings.
* Now supports either DOS (CR LF) or Unix (LF) line delimiters.

For those that don't know about it, you need a 386 or better with AT 
LEAST 1MB SVGA graphics adaptor.

It can be downloaded from the EVMT Web page:
http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/vmsview4.zip

Please, report to  me any problems/ comments.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May  2 08:50:02 1997
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Subject: Re: SARU and KEKO Business
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Dennis (and Gabriel) wrote:
> voyb.cur       26   10764   4.700   3.416   2.225   1.191   34.9   23.7
> voyb.fsg       19   13434   4.248   3.470   2.187   1.283   37.0   25.7
> voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   1.778   46.1   23.7
> voyb.guy       15   14524   3.907   3.351   1.939   1.412   42.1   24.8

Does this mean 11 Currier characters did not occur in this
sample? I'm also surprised at the high h1 value for EVA...
I have a feeling of deja-vu here, as if I asked this before
(apologies on behalf of the sieve in my head)....., but
which 'B' material was used here: herbal, bio or all
combined?
The absolute value of h2 in the above seems to be indicative
of the nature of the transcription scheme: synthetic vs.
analytical. The smaller the basic components, the lower the
value of h2. This is totally unsurprising.
The conclusion would have to be: in order to achieve a more
reasonable value of h2, an even higher amount of synthesis
is required.

One way of getting some theoretical comparison material
for the 'drop in entopy' from h1 to h2, is to assume the
case that for all n-graphs Zipf's first law applies.
That is, the frequency distribution for all single
characters is an inverse power law with gradient -1,
and the same with that for sigraphs, trigraphs etc.
A mathematical solution of this might be possible, but
it is more expedient to just compute some numbers:

Alphabet size    h1     h2     h3     h4

16            3.403  2.818  2.530  2.388
20            3.647  2.996  2.695  2.551
24            3.844  3.139  2.830  2.686
28            4.008  3.259  2.943  2.796
32            4.149  3.362  3.041  2.893
36            4.273  3.452  3.128  2.979

The drop from h1 to h2 is 17 to 19 pct, less
than in real languages, which seem to have
20 to 30 pct, according to Dennis' post...



For what it's worth,
                 Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May  2 16:47:04 1997
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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: My MONKEY Messup of VMs Text Results
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    (I can't believe I did it!!!)  My VMs text MONKEY Business results are
wrong.  I forgot to turn on the numbers when I ran MONKEY for them!  Here
are corrected results. 

	Rene Zandbergen kindly provided me with samples of Herbal-B and
Herbal-A from voynich.now.  These are the same files I originally used. 

Herbal-B:
26r, 26v, 31r, 31v, 33r, 33v, 34r, 34v, 39r, 39v, 40r, 40v, 41r, 41v, 43r,
43v, 46r, 46v, 48r, 48v, 50r, 50v, 55r, 55v, 57r

Selected Herbal-A:
28v, 29r, 29v, 30r, 30v, 32r, 32v, 35r, 35v, 36r, 36v, 37r, 37v, 38r, 38v,
42r, 42v, 44r, 44v, 45r, 45v, 47r, 47v, 49r, 49v 

Herbal A - voyas
Herbal B - voyb

    I converted these using BITRANS thus:

cur2fsg2 THEN
fsg2guy and
fsg2eva

with no options turned on.

    I then used MONKEY with the alphabet and numbers turned on, and
capitalization turned on.


NEW RESULTS
May 2, 1997 21:24 GMT

                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------


voyas.cur      33    9804   5.044   3.792   2.313   1.479   39.0   22.9
voyb.cur       34   13858   5.087   3.796   2.267   1.529   40.3   22.3
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5
voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   1.812   47.7   22.7
voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   1.778   46.1   23.7
voyas.guy      19   13539   4.248   3.710   1.951   1.759   47.4   23.0
voyb.guy       19   17975   4.248   3.749   1.999   1.750   46.7   23.5



OLD FALSE RESULTS

voyas.cur      25    8108   4.644   3.402   2.222   1.180   34.7   23.9
voyb.cur       26   10764   4.700   3.416   2.225   1.191   34.9   23.7
voyas.fsg      19    9306   4.248   3.544   2.188   1.355   38.2   25.8
voyb.fsg       19   13434   4.248   3.470   2.187   1.283   37.0   25.7
voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   1.812   47.7   22.7
voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   1.778   46.1   23.7
voyas.guy      15   11596   3.907   3.345   1.877   1.468   43.9   24.0
voyb.guy       15   14524   3.907   3.351   1.939   1.412   42.1   24.8


    Fortunately, I don't think it affects the general conclusions we've
been making. 

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May  2 22:35:01 1997
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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:25:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Cat Latin C
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502222405.28363A-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
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    I developed Cat Latin C (*.clc) to transform Vulgate Latin into 
something with VMs-like entropies, given my new and (I hope!) correct 
MONKEY Business results.  For comparison I chose the VMs results in 
FSG2, since the size of that character set is closest to Latin. 


May 3, 1997 02:51 GMT 

                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5


1kingsa1.lat = beginning through 2:11

1kingsa1.lat   23    8232   4.524   3.996   3.262   0.734   18.4   36.1
1kingsa1.clc   23   28754   4.524   3.873   2.278   1.595   41.2   25.2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The BITRANS script lat2clc
-----------------------------------------------------------------
#=~
<(comment)> <(comment)>
{(comment)} {(comment)}
#(comment) #(comment)
a  a
b  bqbababa
c  c
d  dqdede
e  e
f  fqfififi
g  gqgogogo
h  h
i  i
j  jqjajaja
k  k
m  mqmememe
n  nqninini
o  o
p  pqpopopo
qu qu
r  rqrarara
s  sqsesese
t  tqtititi
u  u
v  v
w  w
x  xqxoxoxo
y  y
z  zqzazaza
----------------------------------------------------

    You can see what I did.  I added vowels roughly in proportion to 
their occurance in Latin.  (If I had had character and digraph 
distributions for Latin, I could have done better.)  I repeated the 
consonants in proportion to their occurance.   All of which keeps the 
h1 roughly the same as with Latin and FSG.  The repeated digraphs are 
what reduce h2 to where we need it. 

    If q is followed by u, it is as with normal Latin; otherwise it 
fits one of the consonant patterns.  So this scheme is unambiguous.  
It took some severe mangling, but I got VMs-like entropies! 

    What I still don't understand is the Japanese and Hawaiian 
syllabic versus phonemic entropy results.  Help! 

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat May  3 10:23:10 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:21:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: SARU and KEKO Business
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Status: OR

Hi all,

Regarding the comment of Jim Reeds, I agree that the meaning of  
(h2-h1)/h1 is very obscure. I think Dennis introduced it. Probably he 
has some comments? 

I remind you all that I am not expert at all in these matters, 
but I have been thinking on the entropy tables that Dennis has 
produced. To all the experts in the list, please forgive my basic 
explanation, but I am trying to get to something... Any insights are 
very appreciated.

Let's suppose you play dice. If you are playing with a die of  m=6
faces, The maximum entropy of a dice game, that is h0, is 
log2(m)=2.58...

Knowing this number, you want to know the entropy for a particular
sequence. If you consider one throw at a time (n=1), then the
maximum number of h1 you may expect (in the long run) is also same as 
h0, since: max_hn=log2(m^n)=2.58...

However for higher n, max_ h2=5.16..., max_h3=7.75..., etc. and so 
you can say that your game, considering n-throws, had "so much" of 
the expected entropy that is theoretically possible.

Now if you play roulette, m=37 (0 to 36) and now 
max_h1=5.20..., max_h2=15.62...

Of course the values of calculated entropy h1, h2, etc. are not 
comparable to those of a game of dice unless we consider the max_hn, 
for each game and only then, we could say something about the 
predictability or compressibility of the sequences. Since fair dice 
and roulette should be random, I think that only in this case one can 
say that the individual results of entropy from different character 
sources are comparable, but what about this concept applied to 
Voynich text? We know little about the concept of its alphabet.

But, at the same time, do we need to compare those two games? In the 
cases of languages, I am not sure of what are we trying to do and 
what type of results we get.

Same language in different alphabets.
-------------------------------------
Let's compare this problem to the one of Japanese text.
One one hand you have the original text which is written in hiragana 
(about 70 characters)+kanji (Chinese characters, several thousands), 
this of course can be reduced to a "phonetic script" called 
"furigana" in which the kanji are "spelled" in hiragana (so you can 
read which of the several "sounds" of the kanji is the 
correct). Now, on top of that, Japanese can also be written in the 
Roman alphabet, called romaji (roman letter). In this case each 
hiragana (or furigana, if you wish) is assigned a syllable in roman 
characters (there are at least 2 types of romaji; I know, it could be 
worse... it could be raining).

So what I sent to Dennis is the same text in romaji and furigana and 
he produced the results that you all received. Now, consider that the 
meaning of "characters" gets complicated.  For example
a,i,u,e,o are romaji characters that are also hiragana characters,
ka,ki,ku, etc. are 2 romaji chars. which are 1 hiragana chars.
tsu, shi, etc.  are 3 romaji chars.  which are 1 hiragana chars.
kyu, ryo, etc. are 3 romaji chars. which are 2 hiragana chars, but 
one syllable.

So where am I going to? The problem is that let's say h2 in romaji is 
not the same thing to h2 in hiragana. I'll put the same example 
that I mentioned to Dennis. Japanese for "yamato" in romaji is in 
hiragana <ya><ma><to>.
When you go into h2 for the romaji, the possible duplets are: 
ya, am, ma, at, to, of those, only half of these are Japanese 
characters that have also a romaji meaning. "am" and "at" are not 
meaningful duplets in romaji and are not characters in hiragana.
Confused? Me too.
The problem arises since one cannot link the same meaning of entropy 
to the two versions of the same text. At some time I was tempted to 
relate h2 in romaji to h1 in hiragana (with some offset and/or 
coefficient), but thinking a bit, you see that the syllabic 
conversion is more complicated than that.

A further detail; if we keep going up to other entropy orders, 
then we reach the "word" sizes.  h3 for hiragana includes "ya-ma-to" 
as a whole word while for romaji, h3 includes just parts of words 
"yam", "ama", "mat", "to_" all except the last one are not syllabic 
units. Because Japanese has very short words, this "word boundary" 
effect is present in the h2 and h3 already.

You may say "so what?"... well, Japanese *is* a syllabic language and 
when calculating the entropy of romaji one does tends to forget that.
 

Now to the numbers:

Name       ch  File   h0   h1    maxh1 %maxh1 maxh2  h2   %maxh2 
----------------------------------------------------------------
genji1.rom 22  32000  4.46 3.76  4.46  84.38  2.68   8.92 30.02 
 
genji1.kan 71  20622  6.15 4.76  6.15  77.47  3.39  12.30 27.59 
----------------------------------------------------------------

Note that the h1 looks larger for the hiragana file (kan =4.76
versus rom=3.76) , but in % of the maximum kan=77% and rom=84% 
(and similar pattern for h2 as well). I was expecting to get a more 
redundant romaji than hiragana, but thinking twice, h1 shows 
transitions that are not part of japanese at all as shows above.

So, the inconclusive conclusion is that perhaps we must think a 
bit more what may produce the low h2 of Voynichese. There are a few 
ideas floating around, for example eva "iin" may be a single 
character (m?) and so eva "in" (n?). Perhaps there is some 
abbreviation scheme, or there may be many numbers coded with the same 
script. For example we can parse text and numbers in roman numerals 
with no problem i.e. iv, xxxi, etc. and this could be responsible 
for the unusual patterns.

Regards,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May  4 22:20:06 1997
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Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:04:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@MICRO-NET.COM>
To: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: SARU and KEKO Business
In-Reply-To: <9705031419.AA02317@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
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On Sat, 3 May 1997, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> Regarding the comment of Jim Reeds, I agree that the meaning of  
> (h2-h1)/h1 is very obscure. I think Dennis introduced it. Probably he 
> has some comments? 

	I chose (h2-h1)/h1 arbitrarily.  I felt we needed to scale the h2
values to the character set size somehow.  (h2-h1)/h1 is just simple, an
easy first idea.   

	However, Jim also expressed doubt about dividing h2 by max(h2) as
well.  

	It's true that we don't know the size of the character set for
Voynichese, but I don't think the character set is irrelevant.  We get a
wide range of h2 and scaled h2 values for our various transcription
alphabets, Currier, FSG, EVA, and Frogguy.  

	My Cat Latin tests show that you can turn Late Classical Latin
into something with a VMs-like entropy pattern with simple rewrite rules.
This is at least one possibility of what Voynichese could be.  That's my
EKT hypothesis - single phonemes rewritten to multiple-character sets.
Along with that, a few choices for each phoneme.  A and B had diffferent
preferences for the choices.  One possibility, anyway!  
 
> A further detail; if we keep going up to other entropy orders, 
> then we reach the "word" sizes.  h3 for hiragana includes "ya-ma-to" 
> as a whole word while for romaji, h3 includes just parts of words 
> "yam", "ama", "mat", "to_" all except the last one are not syllabic 
> units. Because Japanese has very short words, this "word boundary" 
> effect is present in the h2 and h3 already.

	I understand Gabriel's argument that Japanese in romaji shows
combinations such as -am-, -at- that are never represented in kana.  This
would also happen with Hawaiian in syllabic notation.  

	You also have the word boundary effect he mentions here.  I wasn't
aware that Japanese had very short words; I though they were rather long.

> You may say "so what?"... well, Japanese *is* a syllabic language and 
> when calculating the entropy of romaji one does tends to forget that.
>  
> 
> Now to the numbers:
> 
> Name       ch  File   h0   h1    maxh1 %maxh1 maxh2  h2   %maxh2 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> genji1.rom 22  32000  4.46 3.76  4.46  84.38  2.68   8.92 30.02 
>  
> genji1.kan 71  20622  6.15 4.76  6.15  77.47  3.39  12.30 27.59 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Note that the h1 looks larger for the hiragana file (kan =4.76
> versus rom=3.76) , but in % of the maximum kan=77% and rom=84% 
> (and similar pattern for h2 as well). I was expecting to get a more 
> redundant romaji than hiragana, but thinking twice, h1 shows 
> transitions that are not part of japanese at all as shows above.

	Yes.  Also imagine trying this with Japanese as it's normally
written: in kanji plus kana.  You'd have a character set of several
thousand.  Try calculating h0, h1, h2, etc. for that!  Maybe there's some
insight there. 

	I don't have much more to add at this point.  

	It occurs to me that this is of more than Voynichological
interest.  We're dealing with several natural languages here.  Perhaps we
could bring this up on some linguistics, information theory, or some other
newsgroup to gain further input?

	Finally.  I'm confused about the reliability of the results from
MONKEY.  Jacques has said that the "higher-order entropy" values
from MONKEY are unreliable.  Does this mean that h2 values are no good?
Are h3 values any good?  I didn't calculate any h3 values because I
assumed they were unreliable.  In an old post in the mail archives Jacques
says that MONKEY values are OK if you restart MONKEY a time or two.  What
is the truth here?  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May  5 04:47:02 1997
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Dear Frogguy and all,

fortunately the VMs is a bit longer than just: 'merde'
(but in clarity it lacks far behind :-) ).  Thus we may
assume our h1 and h2 values are representative of
'Voynichese, the language'. Our h3 might still be
reasonable, since the very-low-frequency triplets have
no big impact on h3. But here we start looking at statistics
valid for 'the text written in the VMs', not necessarily
'the language'.
Had the VMs had been written by a clochard living under
the Pont Neuf, a shorter corpus would have sufficed,
and maybe the 5 or 6 characters quoted by Jacques would
have done it. This silly interjection is just to lead up
to one or two questions about the practice of calculating
entropies in the straightforward manner:
- It is probably reasonable to remove all interpunction
  but keep single spaces between words and count the
  spaces as a character, isn't it?
- For a short corpus, the text boundaries become a problem.
  Would there be anything against computing the entropy
  of our clochard's French from:
  'merde merde merde ' (etc). The higher-order values are
  still correct (namely zero).

Next, as long as we are baffled by the
value of h2, what could we hope to learn from h3?
Given a reasonable h1, what should h2 be? We can make an
educated guess, and then we find that the VMs is way off.
Given a reasonable h1 but an unreasonable h2, what should
h3 be?
Jacques, I think you recently hinted at a way of predicting
h4 when h2 is known. Nobody did his homework. Could you
tell us anyway?

But now for something completely different:
> But now for the worrying stuff.

> I had started proofreading Voynich Now in interlinear
> format (FSG and Currier) against Petersen. Shudder.

It's not so bad, as long as one can accept that some of
the existing transcriptions are occasionally inaccurate.

> There is a lot wrong

That's what I meant.
But there is a lot right too. Occasionally I was
amazed that the independent groups/people got such a similar
result.

But on to the weirdoes.
They are not so uncommon indeed. If we go by the definition
that anything not representable in Currier is a weirdo,
(and that includes the picnic table, the extended Q's and
X's and the i-shapes of S and Z) then the following
extrapolation gives an idea of the orders of magnitude:
the total number of weirdoes in the VMs will be somewhere
between 500 and 1000. Many of these are duplicates of
each other. (There are some weirdoes that are more frequent
than several Currier characters!!).
There will probably be about 200-300-ish different ones.
Of these, about half will be combinations representable
properly in EVA, while Frogguy would cope with a few more.
One day, when our transcription is finished, we hope to
be able to deliver a complete catalogue of this. The
interpretation of them is left as an exercise to the
user :-), but let me make a head start:

What the *** are we supposed to think of a character set
of 250 characters, where 90% of them occur only 1-2% of
the time???
Perhaps, not everything we see is meant to be an
alphabetical character.
Or, if this is cipher, then we might start to think about
nomenclator words. But we'd be pretty much stuck.
Maybe, if I were to stop transcribing the Voynich Ms and
start on some Arabic Ms, then depending on how
critically I transcribed I might run into a similar
situation. Occasionally a character is embellished with
extra curlicues or a whole row of dots (or both).
Sometimes, characters are written above each other,
or characters are joined in two or three different ways.
If two authors are involved, they would have different
styles of writing characters and I might not recognise
that two different things are really the same. Or I would
guess that this was happening, but not dare to make
that assumption.

I might thus end up with a character set of 200 or more.
Therefore I am not too worried yet. Or better: I would
be more worried if they made up 25% of the VMs instead of
1 or 2 (these numbers are just examples).

Jacques also wrote:
> But I got sidetracked with Strong's notes. And there, in the
> middle of one, was a piece of nonsense, an impossible letter,
> so it must have been a slip of the pen. And I dismissed it as
> such. Well, no, I went back to Petersen, and there it was.

> We need a more accurate transcription of the VMS, and more
> work on the transcription system.

The former is being taken care of, but you have to be
patient. And ours will have inaccuracies too, but it
should be more consistent than the existing ones. The
alphabet may not be perfect but that should be made up
for by providing a table of all weirdoes, be they representable
in EVA or not.

Then briefly back to Strong's work: what happens with
the 1-5-9 etc keystream in the presence of weirdoes?
Are these skipped, or counted as one, or broken up into
several?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May  5 10:02:01 1997
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Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:47:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Worse worries ( was Re: SARU and KEKO Business)
In-Reply-To: <336E3EBB.3FDA@trl.telstra.com.au>
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On Mon, 5 May 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> Back to the entropy, before, I give you Jim Reeds' tutorial. As I posted
> several weeks ago already, I still hold that we are wasting our efforts.
> Firstly, there is no statistical test of significance for the entropy
> (I have ascertained that quite some time ago by asking around), nor can
> there be any. Second, it is too narrow a measure -- it's like wanting
> to quantify people, their beliefs, tastes and habits by a single figure.

	Thanks for all the info, Jacques.  You're right that we can't get
everything we want from a single figure like entropy, but I think we've
learned some useful things from entropy tests.  I for one feel better
about my EKT hypothesis.  I may start looking for a solution on that
basis.  I also think that it would be good to have Son of Monkey so that
we could have better higher-order entropies on larger texts (hint, hint!).
;-)  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May  5 11:02:10 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On  5 May 97 at 13:10, Jacques Guy wrote:
> Dennis wrote:
> >         Finally.  I'm confused about the reliability of the results from
> > MONKEY.  Jacques has said that the "higher-order entropy" values
> > from MONKEY are unreliable.  Does this mean that h2 values are no good?
> 
> It is a matter of sampling. If I toss a coin once, and it falls tails up,
> I get 100% tails. The entropy of my coin toss, by the way, is
> zero: -log (1) *1 = 0. Well, to any of you have ever tossed coins, this
> just isn't quite right. Now let me ask you to compute the entropy of
> French on this corpus (typically French, too!): 
>                merde

Hang on. I do not think that this is a fair example. Or maybe it is 
fair only if we're trying to calculate entropy from a single word!
We could also say that languages A and B in the VMS are just "bad 
luck" samples.

If it is just a matter of sample size, then is by getting all the VMS 
into a Monkey that could read the entire thing would at least improve 
the stats (yes I read Jim R's old mailing and it is very interesting, 
perhaps we should try the comma counting for a start).

> But now for the worrying stuff. I had started proofreading Voynich Now
> in interlinear format (FSG and Currier) against Petersen. Shudder. 
...
>We need a more accurate transcription of the VMS, and more work
> on the transcription system. The TrueType fonts help immensely there, and I
> don't  think that the transcription system can be divorced from the fonts:
> width and positioning are very important.

This is all Ok. Let me say that the problem here is that given the 
different alphabets, we could have a complete language, but that 
behaves very strangely and annoyingly we seem to be getting nowhere. 
So, maybe the alphabets are wrong, or there is something else 
(polyalphabeticity or whatever) or both.

Perhaps after all, there is more in the fonts that we can see. I can
tell you that there are all these eva- "eee" and "hh" and the
complex gallows which instead of starting with eva-c start with
eva-i. Nobody (as far as I remember) has mentioned the possibility
of these "ee" being one character. Moreover, there are all those
(many!) EE (ee low-connected) after (or before) a disconnected e. 
All these characters are rarely represented with the FSG and Currier
alphabets. In this sense, Frogguy is excellent. 
We have been relying on the assumption that the two previous groups 
were very good at transcribing and now we see (as Jacques 
notes)  that this assumption was probably too ambitious. For example 
I haven't seen a single eva-j that could not be a possible version of 
eva-d (Currier 7 and 8). And are all eva-a really "a" or a closely 
drawn "ci"?... There are some eva-r which look something in between 
eva-r and eva-s (we are marking those), the plumes over eva-sh, plus 
all those dodgy spacings and the list continues.

The only thing I can suggest is patience. I can assure you that this 
current transcription is being done very carefully and I am quite 
certain that it will be much more accurate than all the others (there 
are quite a few instances that both Currier and FSG agree but they're 
both wrong, and others in which they disagree and they're still both 
wrong!). 

Perhaps we will have to recompute all statistics that have been done 
in the past, in all the alphabets (this will be possible because 
there will be translators from eva to all the other alphabets).
Sticking to one alphabet is (I think) dangerous unless we're sure 
that it is the correct one.

regards,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May  5 15:23:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Transcription (WAS: Re: Worse worries)
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On Mon, 5 May 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> But now for the worrying stuff. I had started proofreading Voynich Now
> in interlinear format (FSG and Currier) against Petersen. Shudder. There
> is a lot wrong (not to mention that the FSG and Currier systems are
> really
> badly equipped to deal with those weirdoes which are not so uncommon
> after all.
> See Petersen!). But I got sidetracked with Strong's notes. And there, in
> the middle of one, was a piece of nonsense, an impossible letter, so it
> must have been a slip of the pen. And I dismissed it as such. Well, no,
> I went back to Petersen, and there it was. Never mind what, but even
> Advanced
> Frogguy just scrapes by. So the entropy is the least of my worries at
> the
> moment. We need a more accurate transcription of the VMS, and more work
> on the
> transcription system. The TrueType fonts help immensely there, and I
> don't
> think that the transcription system can be divorced from the fonts:
> width
> and positioning are very important.

	I'd like to interject a thought I have from time to time.  Many
writing systems leave out significant features of their languages, yet are
still serviceable.  For instance, vowels are normally not written in
Hebrew and Arabic.  Vowel length was not indicated in Latin.  
	This makes me think that we don't have to do a perfect job of
transcribing the VMs.  So long as we get *many* of the significant
features right, we can still decipher it.  

Dennis


From reeds Mon May  5 15:59:22 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:59:22 -0400
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Transcription (WAS: Re: Worse worries)" (May  5, 15:06)
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On May 5, 15:06, Dennis wrote:
... 
> 	This makes me think that we don't have to do a perfect job of
> transcribing the VMs.  So long as we get *many* of the significant
> features right, we can still decipher it. 

Yes, but this is one of the things that worries me the most about the VMS: if
it were en enciphered text  it should have been read a long time ago. Probably
ALL the extant transcriptions have many of the significant features right.
Manley, Friedman, and Tiltman were not bumbling Lestrades, incapable of
puzzling their way outside of paper bags. They were, rather, more like Holmes
or his smarter brother: very brainy people with lots of practice, who would not
be held up for more than a moment by tricks like 'elide the vowels' or 'an X,
Y, or Z means the following vowel is long' and so on, or by a certain level
of transcription errors.


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997: 
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 360 8178

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Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 13:10:35 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Worse worries ( was Re: SARU and KEKO Business)
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Dennis wrote:
 
>         It occurs to me that this is of more than Voynichological
> interest.  We're dealing with several natural languages here.  Perhaps we
> could bring this up on some linguistics, information theory, or some other
> newsgroup to gain further input?

The remedy would be worse than the ailment. Since I have been on the
editorial board
of the Journal of Quantitative Linguistics (a mostly German, central and
east-
European affair, heavily into those topics) since its inception --
already a few
year now, time flies -- I am kept fairly well up-to-date on the subject. 
What we are struggling with is very different from most current
research. We 
are dealing with an unknown language (or perhaps it is a cipher) in an
unkown
script (we don't even know what its letters are). All the research I
have seen
study the properties of known languages assuming them to beknown, or
test 
algorithms on known languages precisely because they are known, and
provide, as
such, a benchmark. There have been a few articles on unknown texts, the
Phaistos
Disk, the Indus Valley seals for instance, but they all end the same
way: case
not proven. And raise a fe eyebrows, and elicit gentle tsk, tsk, tsk.
 

>         Finally.  I'm confused about the reliability of the results from
> MONKEY.  Jacques has said that the "higher-order entropy" values
> from MONKEY are unreliable.  Does this mean that h2 values are no good?

It is a matter of sampling. If I toss a coin once, and it falls tails
up,
I get 100% tails. The entropy of my coin toss, by the way, is
zero: -log (1) *1 = 0. Well, to any of you have ever tossed coins, this
just isn't quite right. Now let me ask you to compute the entropy of
French
on this corpus (typically French, too!): 

               merde

Why, even the zeroeth order entropy will be way off! (There are four
different
letters, so H(0) = log 4 = 2). See the problem? The best I can do is
append
what Jim Reeds taught me 5 years ago already (what was it doing in
ling\cognate???
My hard disk IS a mess -- without XtreeGold I would never have found
it). But
hang on, later, at the very end of this e-mail, there more urgent things
to
attend to.

> In an old post in the mail archives Jacques
> says that MONKEY values are OK if you restart MONKEY a time or two.  What
> is the truth here?

That is a bug -- a memory leak. Once in a blue moon some memory area is
not zeroed properly and you get silly values. If you reload the file,
the
guilty area is zeroed.

But now for the worrying stuff. I had started proofreading Voynich Now
in interlinear format (FSG and Currier) against Petersen. Shudder. There
is a lot wrong (not to mention that the FSG and Currier systems are
really
badly equipped to deal with those weirdoes which are not so uncommon
after all.
See Petersen!). But I got sidetracked with Strong's notes. And there, in
the middle of one, was a piece of nonsense, an impossible letter, so it
must have been a slip of the pen. And I dismissed it as such. Well, no,
I went back to Petersen, and there it was. Never mind what, but even
Advanced
Frogguy just scrapes by. So the entropy is the least of my worries at
the
moment. We need a more accurate transcription of the VMS, and more work
on the
transcription system. The TrueType fonts help immensely there, and I
don't
think that the transcription system can be divorced from the fonts:
width
and positioning are very important.

Back to the entropy, before, I give you Jim Reeds' tutorial. As I posted
several weeks ago already, I still hold that we are wasting our efforts.
Firstly, there is no statistical test of significance for the entropy
(I have ascertained that quite some time ago by asking around), nor can
there be any. Second, it is too narrow a measure -- it's like wanting
to quantify people, their beliefs, tastes and habits by a single figure.

Now for Jim's tutorial... (I thought I had posted it not long ago, but
perhaps our mail server played up --- I am still getting the occasional
message with a subject line but nothing inside. All is no well yet)

From: reeds@gauss.att.com
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 14:41:53 EDT
To: j.guy@trl.OZ.AU
Subject: Voynich entropy merry-go-round
Status: RO

Jacques, you are right, I owe you entropy jabber.  I have completely
lost track of where we were in our arguments.

Remember that to me an ergodic process (a Markov chain, say, or some
other
probability mechanism) has an entropy.  A "sample entropy" calculated
from
a finite portion of the output of such a process will only approximate
the
process's entropy.  We naturally want to use formulas for calculating
sample
entropies which tend to estimate the population entropies well.

So, some notation.  Let H(k) be the expected conditional entropy of the
next letter given the k-1 preceeding letters.  For all k, H(k) >=
H(k+1),
and the entropy of the process is H(oo), the limit of H(k) as k goes
to infinity.  Formulas:  let i denote a k-1 tuple of letters and let
j denote a singleton letter.  P(t) = p(i,j) is the chance of seeing the
k-tuple of letters t=(i,j), p(i) and p(j) are the chances of seeing the
k-1 tuple i and the singleton j, respectively.  P(j|i) is the chance
that
the letter immediately following the k-1 tuple i is the letter j.
Then H(k) can be defined as the sum over all i and j of
-p(i,j)*log(p(j|i)).
This is the same as the sum over all i and j of -p(i,j)*log(p(i,j))
minus
the sum over all i of -p(i)*log(p(i)).

If we let B(k) be the entropy of the k-tuple distribution, viz, sum over
all i and j of -p(i,j)*log(p(i,j)), that is, the sum over all k-tuples t
of -p(t)*log(p(t)), then H(k) = B(k) - B(k-1).  It can be shown that as
k -> oo, B(k)/k -> H(oo), so one can use estimates of either B(k)/k or
of B(k)-B(k-1) for large values of k to estimate H(oo).

One way to estimate B(k) is to replace the probabilities in the formulas
with observed proportions.  Suppose in a sample of length N, k-tuple t
is seen n(t) times.  Then the "naive" estimate of B(k), which we might
denote NB(k), is the sum over all t of - n(t)*log(n(t)/N) / N.  Then
the naive estimate of H(k) is NB(k) - NB(k-1).  This is what Bennett
suggests, and, I think, what your Monkey program uses.

The naive estimates are good for k=0, 1, or possibly 2, but only in
exceptional cases for larger values of k.  The problem is, that the
formula
involves tiny probabilities p(t) which are for most t, estimated by
numbers
n(t)/N, which are all of form 0/N or 1/N, which are not especially good
estimates of p(t) and hence their combination into NB(k) is not a good
estimate of B(k).

There are two things you can do instead of using the naive estimates.

One is to avoid trying to estimate B(k) for big values of k but to use
some other means of estimating H(oo) directly.  The other is to assume
something extra about the process, and use the extra assumption to
improve
on the naive estimates of B(k).

1.  Direct estimates of H(oo).

There exist "universal data compression" schemes, such as the Lempel-Ziv
compression method, which are "information theoretically optimal".
This means that long sample texts from an ergodic process can be
compressed
with a compression ratio close to H(oo), the entropy of the process,
whatever the process and its entropy might be.  As you take longer and
longer
texts to compress, the compression ratio converges to the entropy.

So you can take the observed compression ratio as an estimate of the
entropy.
Of course you don't actually have to compress the text to see how much
its compression ratio is:  it suffices to count "commas".  If a sample
of
length N has C commas, the estimated entropy is C log C / N.

What are "commas"?  Read along, left to right, character by character,
inserting commas from time to time, parsing the text into phrases.  You
insert a comma exactly when the phrase just constructed is a unique
new phrase.  Thus, if the input is the binary string 111011011001
you would insert commas as follows:
	1,				because 1 is new
	1,11,				11 is new but 1 is not
	1,11,0,				0 is new
	1,11,0,110,			110 is new but 11 is not
	1,11,0,110,1100,		1100 is new but 110 is not

The fully parsed string is thus
	
	1,11,0,110,1100,1
	
which has 5 commas.  The entropy estimate is then 5 log 5 / 12.

Note that each phrase is a 1-letter extension of some earlier phrase.

This is pretty easy to program up.  You can be ingeneous in the way you
store your dictionary of all previous phrases.


2.  "Smoothed" estimates of B(k).

A way to improve the quality of the naive estimates NB(3) or NB(4) is
to "smooth" the "frequencies of frequencies".  This is an idea of
Turing,
explained by Good, recently exploited by Ken Church.  (I am sure I sent
you references in the past.  I don't have them handy now, but can fish
them up if needed.  Church is a statistical linguist, who publishes in
journals and conferences I am sure you track.)

The main assumption is that most of the tuple probabilities p(t) in
the formula B(k) = sum -p(t) log(p(t)) are similar sized numbers,
indeed,
with a distribution of values which we will somehow try to estimate.

Rewrite the naive formula NB(k) = sum over all t of - n(t)*log(n(t)/N) /
N
as follows:  Let f(n) be the number of tuples t that are seen exactly
n times.  That is, f(n) is the number of t such that n(t) = n.
(Since n is a frequency, we call f(n) a 'frequency of frequencies'.)
Then just by grouping together terms n(t)*log(n(t)/N) which have the
same value of n(t), we see  NB(k) = sum over all n of - f(n) * n *
log(n/N) / N.

Turing's idea is to use not n/N as an estimate of the probability of
those
tuples which occur exactly n times each but instead to use the quantity
q(n) = (n+1)*f(n+1)/(N*f(n)).  Then the estimated B(k) would be the sum
over
all n of -f(n) q(n)*log(q(n)).

A more ambitious version is to replace f(n) by a smoothed version
(obtained
by curve fitting, I suppose, on log paper, or its computer equivalent)
in the above formulas.

Summary.  Method 1 will give much more reliable estimates of H(oo) than
NB(10), say.  Method 2 will give somewhat more reliable estimates of
B(3)
(say) than NB(3).

Jim Reeds

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May  6 04:11:02 1997
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Dennis wrote:

> ..we don't have to do a perfect job of
> transcribing the VMs.

I agree and this is what's keeping us (or me at least)
hopeful of doing something useful. Sometimes when
transcribing you just *know* that things cannot be
perfect. But reducing such occurrances to a minimum
is a good step forward.

> So long as we get *many* of the significant
> features right, we can still decipher it.

And such optimism is what we need too :-)

As Jim Reeds pointed out, the people who have
looked at the VMs before were extremely clever
people and they could not come up with 'the solution'.
So, one or more of the following must be true:

1) There is no solution (i.e. there is no meaningful
   plaintext behind the VMs)
2) They looked in the right direction but they did
   not look hard enough
3) They looked in the wrong direction.

A few opinions on each of these:

1) I would not like to go into the precise meaning
of 'solution'. I could claim: the VMs plaintext
is 'fachys ykal ar ataiin' etc... It is in an unknown
language, the same as 'michiton oladabas'. That is no
solution. Essentially I am not yet ready to accept
option (1).

2) We know that we can 'look harder' in any direction
if we use our tools (computers) with care. What it
took Petersen years to accomplish (large text
concordances) we can repeat as a matter of minutes or
seconds. It has not gotten us very far yet. Perhaps there
is a solution which cannot be obtained without additional
information that is now lost (a code book, a dictionary,
etc). In that case 'looking harder' won't help.

3) As much as these gentlemen were probably a lot cleverer
than I am, some of their looking into the wrong direction
is rather evident. Now that we know,
it is blatantly obvious how different languages A and
B are. Yet Manley, Friedman or Tiltman never commented
on this. Petersen was clearly aware of it though...

Risking the wrath of some, I'd still like to further
opinionate that:
- the highly intelligent Newbold got sidetracked into
  searching for microscopic characters, a case of (3)
  above
- the evidently intelligent Strong directed all his
  attention to an extremely complicated cipher solution
  that seems to disregard all the basic features of the
  VMs text and explains none of them. A case of (3) but
  admittedly to be confirmed
- Friedman and Tiltman set their minds onto the artificial
  language theory. This may well be correct, but it is
  a rather hopeless avenue (no reason not to try it
  of course!). We don't know (or perhaps it's just me)
  what else they considered, for how long, how intensively...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May  6 11:11:13 1997
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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:48:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: EKT Hypothesis - 2nd Edition
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    Since the discussion so far and the MONKEY Business seem to 
confirm it, here I make an updated (and shorter!!) presentation of my 
EKT Hypothesis. 

    My hypothesis is that the concealment system for the VMs is a 
homophonic word game or orthographic system.  I have devised a system 
called EKT that would account for the presence of Voynich A and B, the 
low variety of digraphs (the low second-order entropy of the text), 
and the (relative) absence of long repeated phrases. 

*Word Games*

    Pig Latin is the best-known word game in English, but it is not a 
good example of what I've got in mind, since it involved a 
transposition as well as addition of nulls.  A better example is 
Opish.  In Opish, you add "op" before each vowel.   

"The sunflower is a marvellous plant with powerful virtues that must
needs be concealed from the ignorant and uninitiated."

becomes:

"Thope sopunflopowoper opis opa moparvopellopous plopant wopith 
popowoperfopul vopiropues thopat mopust nopeeds bope coponcopeald 
fropom thope opignoporopant opand opunopinopitopiopatoped." 

    The system that interests me the most is called King Tut.
One makes the following substitutions:

A - a                   I - i           R - rur
B - bub                 J - jug         S - sus
C - cut                 K - kam         T - tut
D - dud                 L - lul         U - u
E - e                   M - mum         V - vuv
F - fuf                 N - num         W - wuv
G - gug                 O - o           Y - yec
H - hush                P - pup         Z - zuz

Q (as is)
X (as is)

- from *The Cat's Elbow and other Secret Languages*, collected by
  Alvin Schwartz and pictures by Margot Zemach, 1982; a children's book,
  although it also has good scholarly references.  King Tut or
  Double Dutch, p. 45-47.

"The sunflower is a marvellous plant with powerful virtues that must
needs be concealed from the ignorant and uninitiated."

becomes:

"Tuthushe susunumfuflulowuverur isus a mumarurvuvelullulousus
puplulanumtut wuvituthush pupowuverurfufulul vuvirurtutuesus
tuthushatut mumusustut numeedudsus bube cutonumcutealuledud fufruromum
tuthushe igugnumoruranumtut anumdud unuminumitutiatutedud."

    Of course, the fact that English represents the single
phonemes th and sh with two letters adds some confusion to this
system.

    This system interests me because:

1)  There's enough variation in the substitutions that it's not easily
detectable.

2) The format substitutes C with CVC, preserving the normal CVCV
alternation of natural language.  This keeps the entropy low, even
with greater variety in the substituted syllables compared to other
word games.

3)  The repetition of short "words" in the VMs is very obvious; it
leaps off the page at you.  Common trigraphs or short words would be
expanded to longer strings that would look like words.  For example:

"for"  becomes "fuforur",
"the"  becomes "tuthushe",
"that" becomes "tuthushatut"
"are"  becomes "arure"


*Extended King Tut (EKT)*

    With modifications, the King Tut system can account for other
properties of the Voynich text. I shall call this modified system
Extended King Tut (EKT).

    A homophonic system, one that allows multiple alternatives
for the substitution tags (from now on I'll just call them "tags"),
could lead to the presence of Voynich A and B.  A and B would have
different preferences for alternatives they would use, and this would
account for the statistical differences between Voynich A and B.  This
phenomenon is well known from wartime experience with code clerks.
Each clerk had his/her personal preferences for which code group to
use where there was a choice, and this fact helped enemy codebreakers.

    However, a homophonic system leads to another problem. A homophonic 
system, one offering multiple alternatives, would decrease 
predictability and therefore *increase* entropy.  However, it is the 
second-order entropy of the Voynich text that is low.  A system that 
did not widen the digraph distribution, (that is, the digraphs that we 
see, the Currier digraphs) would not affect our readings of second-
order entropy.  Suppose the tags only contained a few different base 
digraphs, much fewer than the total number of tags. If the tags were 
constructed from a limited pool of base digraphs, there might not be a 
net increase in second-order entropy in comparison to a similar non-
homophonic system (like unmodified King Tut). 

*Sample EKT System*

    To illustrate this, I will construct an Extended King Tut that 
would show roughly the same differences in the Currier letter 
frequencies (in English!) that Voynich A and B do.  Please bear in 
mind that this system is only an example illustrating the principle 
involved and is undoubtedly much simpler than what might really be in 
use in the Voynich Manuscript.  
    
    For vowels:     
    
                A is equally frequent in A and B. 
                E is more frequent in B.
                O is more frequent in A.
                I,U are rare (< 0.1%).

    For consonants: 
    
                Z,X, and B are equally frequent in A and B.
                N,F, and C are more frequent in B.
                P,Q,R,S,M, and J are more frequent in A.
                Y,W,V,U,T,K,L,G,H, and D are rare (< 0.5%).

    So, for the base digraphs-

                A only uses:       OP, OR, OS
                B only uses:       EC, EF, EN
                A and B both use:  AB, AX, AZ

    I then use only these 9 base digraphs to construct the tags
for Extended King Tut.  Adding only 9 distinct base digraphs in large
numbers will surely result in a low second-order entropy for the text.

         A               B               A               B
Char     Only    Either  Only    Char    Only    Either  Only
----     ----    ------  ----    ----    ----    ------  ----
A                                N       nor     nax     nef
B        bop     bab     bec     O
C        cor     cax     cef     P       pos     paz     pen
D        dos     daz     den     Q
E                                R       rop     rab     rec
F        fop     fab     fec     S       sor     sax     sef
G        gor     gax     gef     T       tos     taz     ten
H        hos     haz     hen     U
I                                V       vop     vab     vec
J        jop     jab     jec     W       wor     wax     wef
K        kor     kax     kef     X
L        los     laz     len     Y       yos     yaz     yen
M        mop     mab     mec     Z       zop     zab     zec


"The sunflower is a marvellous plant with powerful virtues that must
needs be concealed from the ignorant and uninitiated."

A might write this sentence as:

"Toshaze saxunorfablazoworerab isor a moparopvopelazlazousor
pazlosanaxtos waxitoshos posoworerabfopulos vopirabtosuesaz toshosataz
mabusaxtaz naxeedossax bope coronorcaxealazedaz fabropomop toshose
igornaxoropanaxtos anaxdaz unorinoritaziatazedaz."

B might write this sentence as:

"Tenhene soruneffeclazoweferec isef a mabarabvabelenlazousef
pazlazanaxten wefitazhaz pazowaxerabfabulen vabirabtazuesax tazhenataz
mabuseften nefeedensef bece cefonaxcaxealazeden fabrabomab tenhaze
igefneforabanaxtaz anefden unefinefitaziatazedaz."

    In reality, of course, the tags probably are short words or
related to short words to give them mnemonic value.  Remember, too,
that the art of memory was much more highly developed in those days
when books were scarce and writing techniques inconvenient.

    The system could easily be more complex than this.  A and B could
both have used all three alternatives, merely having different
relative preferences.  There could have been more than three tags for
each phoneme.


*Word Divisions* 

    The word games that increase predictability and decrease entropy 
also make words longer.  Voynich words are rather short.  

    However, the exact meaning of the "word divisions" remains
unsolved.  Since EKT words are so long, under this hypothesis the 
divisions in the text could not be word divisions.  Some possible 
explanations:
    
    1)  Voynichese could be a monosyllabic language, like Chinese.  I 
know of no monosyllabic languages that have ever been spoken in or 
around Europe, so this seems unlikely.
    
    2)  The word divisions could in fact be syllable divisions.  I 
have never seen examples of a phonemic writing system that did this, 
but there's always a first time!  A language that does not make clear 
word divisions in speech seems like a more likely candidate for this.  
Examples are medieval and modern spoken French, spoken Japanese, and 
many Native American languages.  French is the only one of these to 
have been spoken in or around Europe.  
    
    3)  Word divisions could be due solely to the orthography.  On 
Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Jacques Guy wrote: 

    "They [word breaks] congregate near spaces, ends of lines, and 
ends of paragraphs (or starts). Those are not necessarily word 
boundaries. Thus, for instance, if I write "head" in Arabic, I have  
to write it: r a s. But if I write "river" I write it: nhr (no 
spaces).  This is merely because some letters can connect to the left, 
some to the  right, some left and right, and some not a all.  Note 
that in Voynichese most letters that occur at "word" breaks feature a 
flourish. Is the flourish a variant of the letter when it occurs word-
finally, or is it what prevents the next letter to connect to it?  We 
don't know." 


*EKT as a Homophonic Orthographic System.*  

    EKT could just as well be conceived as an orthographic system as 
an oral word game.  Consider that in English one may see the unvoiced 
palatal fricative written in at least four different ways:
    
    sh  - normally
    sch - in German words and names
    sz  - in Polish names
    ch  - in French words and names.  
    
    Thus there are four choices, which share various subunits - s, h, 
and ch.  This is conceptually like the EKT word game.   

    Finally, the EKT substitution tags are probably not all the same 
length.  My example showed tags that were all three letters long, but 
they could well vary from 1 to 5 or even more letters.
    
Dennis 



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May  5 20:11:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:54:20 -0700
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
 
> Perhaps after all, there is more in the fonts that we can see. I can
> tell you that there are all these eva- "eee" and "hh" and the
> complex gallows which instead of starting with eva-c start with
> eva-i. Nobody (as far as I remember) has mentioned the possibility
> of these "ee" being one character. 

I have! Let me fire up XTreeGold (tm) and look for it... There, 
in d:\voynich\myart\9acc:

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 92 16:39:00 EST
From: j.guy@trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
Message-Id: <9201260539.AA26941@medici.trl.OZ.AU>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: <cc> = <a> = <9> (I suspect so)


       ARE <a> AND <cc> VARIANTS OF THE SAME LETTER?


(It's a long article, so I'll append it right at the end,
so that you don't have to scroll through if you don't
want to read it)


> And are all eva-a really "a" or a closely
> drawn "ci"?... 

I have often wondered...
 
> The only thing I can suggest is patience. 

Last night, in Voynich-despairing mood, I was polishing an
article on the Easter Island Tablets, with much swearing
(I ought to buy myself a flat-bed scanner!), and I was musing
with this idea: scan Petersen, and edit out his obscuring
underlines et al. I renew my curse on Yale and its minions.
 
> Perhaps we will have to recompute all statistics that have been done
> in the past, in all the alphabets (this will be possible because
> there will be translators from eva to all the other alphabets).
> Sticking to one alphabet is (I think) dangerous unless we're sure
> that it is the correct one.

Absolutely. Now for what I wrote about Frogguy cc (EVA ee). Note that
this was written in Palaeo-frogguy, where <q;> and <l;> were Modern
Frogguy
<qj> and <lj>, and <z> and <S> were Modern Frogguy <s> (you can see in
this
article how I was still groping for a more intuitive transcription
system) 


       ARE <a> AND <cc> VARIANTS OF THE SAME LETTER?


I can imagine you jump: "What? Three forms now for the same
letter? This frogguy is out of his mind. Soon he'll have the
whole Voynich alphabet down to two letters!"

Good point. Yet when I look at a page of the Gospel in
Beneventan script out of a marvellous book on medieval
calligraphy which I was lucky to find remaindered at US$20
down from its original price of 60 pounds, I see three
varieties of "i", two of "r", and no less than four of "t".
Which form you should use is decided by the context, with
sometimes some leeway. For instance, one "t" looks like the
Voynich <ct>, another like our "z". The "z" you will find
only word-finally. But you'll also find the <ct>-like "t"
word-finally. Likewise, on that particular page, I see the
tall "i" (looking very much like an "l") *only* word-
initially. But the short "i" (without a dot) occurs also
word-initially. So, you see, it's not all dry and clear-cut.
But let me put my tongue in my cheek just an instant (and
not too firmly, either). What if the Voynich was written in
a real language, but the writing was a Bacon-type cipher?
Would I not be right in reducing the alphabet to two or
three letters? Each plaintext letter would be have two or
three forms so that, under a meaningful plain text, there
would be a hidden one, which would be one third or one-fifth
the length of the plain text?

Enough. Back to work. But first, because this is such a long
article, I shall tell you how the movie ends: I strongly
suspect that <cc> is a variant of <a>, and therefore of <9>,
but I cannot prove it.

In my last posting I have argued that <a> and <9>
(Currier's <A> and <9>) were variants of the same letter,
the choice of which was determined by the letter immediately
following.

Currier wrote that "All the letters containing an initial
c-curve are also the letters that can be preceded in the
same word by the little letter that looks like c, e.g.
<c89>, <ccc89>. On the other hand, the letters <x> and <2>
(which have very high frequencies) can *never* be preceded
by c, *ever; they are instead preceded cy <a>". I had
mentioned that I suspected a similar phenomenon in my
Cryptologia paper, just on the evidence of folios 79v and
80r, long before I had read Currier.

When I used Sukhotin's algorithm to identify vowels in the
text of folios 79v and 80r I had merged the sequence <cc> as
a single letter, on the strength that it was so very
frequent. The first five vowels identified were, in this
order: <o>, <9>, <a>, <c> and <cc>. Among the consonants was
<ct>, the shape of which is similar to that of "t" in the
Beneventan script. Seeing that <cc> is identical to the
letter "a" in the same script, I had hypothesized that
perhaps <cc> was indeed an "a" and <ct> a "t"; by extension,
that it seemed a plausible working hypothesis that <a> and
<o>, similar to our "a" and "o" (and to those of other
medieval scripts) could well be "a" and "o".

Now, if <9> and <a> are variants of the same letter, and if
<a> is "a", then, under that hypothesis, <cc> is another
variant of "a".

I have produced a file in which those sequences which are
almost certainly single letters, such as <q;>, <ct>, <c't>,
have been replaced by single letters. From that file I have
produced again frequency tables (adjacency matrices, in the
jargon of graph theory). <9> is counted occurring 8168
times, <a> 5105, and <cc> 1492. <cc>, then is relatively
rare, one fifth as frequent as <9>, one third as <a>.


I want to look at the possibility that <cc> is a variant of
<9> and <a>. Here is part of the adjacency matrix computed
from the whole of D'Imperio's file. (In this table I have
replaced my <z> (Currier's <2>) by a capital S, which is
very nearly the mirror-image of the corresponding Voynich
letter, and thereby a better mnemonic.


        #    &    2    4    8    9    =    cc  c't   l;   lp   q;    S

   9    89    1  131 1661  865  173  922    6  418   34  634   86  220
   cc    -    -    5    2  571  541    -    4    -    3   42    7   66
   a     -    5 1066    2   15   11    6    -    4    1   14    3   14


       qp    a    c   ct   cg    i   ij  iiv   iv    o    t    v    x

   9  469   44  186  858    2    3    8    -    - 1012    -    3  343
   cc  19   24  103    4    3    1    -    -    -   95    -    1    1
   a    5    1   18    5    7  267  253 1607  732   10    -   76  984

You will have noted that <9> occurs overwhelmingly at the end of
lines (# and =), and before <4>, <c't>, <ct>, <l;>, <lp>,
<q;>, <S>, <qp>, and <o>. On the other hand, <a> occurs
before <2>, <i>, <ig>, <iv>, <iiv> and <x>.

The distribution of <a> corroborates Currier's findings:
what do <2>, <i>, <ig>, <iv>, <iiv> and <x> have in common?
Their first stroke is Voynich i-like: short, straight,
thick, leaning left, exactly like the second stroke that
makes up <a>. So, you write <a> before any letter written
with an i-like stroke first. Elsewhere, you write <9> and
very often a space after it (with I believe is there for
purely aesthetic reasons).

What about <cc> then? Well, 541 times out of 1492 you find
it before <9>. Yes, 36% of the time <cc> occurs before
<9> and 38% again before <8>. Thus out of 1492 occurrences
of <cc> 1,112 are before <9> or <8>. So when you see <cc>,
you are sure to see <8> or <9> next 75% of the time. In
linguists' terms, the functional load of <cc> is very light,
in Shannon's terms, <cc> carries very little information.

That makes me think that is a variant of another letter,
probably <a>/<9>, because it looks precisely like the "a"
of the Beneventan script. But the evidence so far in
identifying it with <a>/<9> is weak. We must look at other
possible candidates: are there any better ones?


What are we after? A letter which is as much as possible in
mutually exclusive distribution with <cc>. That is,
wherever you find <cc> you don't find that letter, and
wherever you find it, you don't find <cc>.

Where do we find <cc>? Mostly before <8> (571 times against
127 expected), <9> (541 times, 173 expected), and <S> (66
times, 21 expected).

So we go down the columns for <8>, <9> and <S> looking for
letters that occur a lot less than expected.

Well, I am not going to scratch my head and dig deep into my
bookshelves to find the adequate statistical test. I'll just
do a quick-and-dirty: for each candidate letter I'll divide
the sum of observed occurrences by the sum of expected
occurrences, and look at the three winners (those with the
lowest ratios). Here are those three columns, painfully
extracted by hand from the complete matrix:

       <8>  <9>  <S>   Score:

  cc  571  541   66    3.67
      127  173   21

   2  187  231   32    0.73
      245  333   41

   4    -    5    2    0.01
      218  297   36

   8   28 3290   14    2.58
      511  697   85

   9  865  173  220    0.71
      697  949  116

 c't   86  172    3    0.53
      193  263   32

  l;    2    9    -    0.27
       16   22    3

  lp    9  410    2    0.43
      388  528   65

  q;   13   30    -    0.32
       53   73    9

   S   21   84    7    0.52
       86  117   14

  qp    9  284    1    0.46
      255  348   43

   a   15   11   14    0.04
      436  593   73

   c 1816  989   82    2.48
      461  628   77

  ct  279  632   27    0.86
      431  587   72

   i    4    -    4    0.08
       40   54    7

  ij   13    7    8    0.35
       32   44    5

 iiv  178   75   36    0.75
      153  208   25

  iv   61   22   11    0.58
       64   87   11

   o  797  103  107    0.45
      888 1210  148

   t   42  537    4    2.22
      104  142   17

   v    9    5    3    0.85
        8   11    1

   x  633  258  128   1.08
      373  509   62

And the three placegetters are.... <4> with 0.01, <a> with
0.04, and <i> with 0.08. Now <4> is disqualified: this
weirdo occurs almost always before <o> (2483 times out of
2869), so that it's in mutually exclusive distribution with
everybody else. Which leaves <a> the winner by a short neck.

Now, to start with, I am the first to admit that my
"statistic" is strictly mathematically incorrect. What I had
in mind originally was to do a clustering analysis; those
letters in mutually exclusive, or nearly exclusive
distribution, I surmised, would be maximally distant in the
tree produced. I got lazy.

Second, you must bear in mind that my primary evidence for
believing that <cc> could be a variant of <a> was of
calligraphic and paleographic nature.

Calligraphy: <cc> has a <c> for its second stroke and occurs
before letters which have a <c>-like shape for their first
stroke; <a> has an <i> for its second stroke and occurs
before letters which have an <i>-shape for their first
stroke.

Paleography: both <cc> and <a> appear in medieval scripts
with the value of "a".

But very importantly, I do not know of any reliable way of
identifying variants of a letter of *purely* quantitative
grounds, without taking into account the *shape* of the
letters, only their distribution. Having studied some of
Sukhotin's works, I strongly suspect that there must exist
such methods. I have done some work on that problem,
obtained what looks like promising results, but I wouldn't
bank on them.

Before I sign off, I would like to raise an objection to
my thesis:

"Frogguy, you say that <9>, <a> and <cc> are three forms of
the same letter; that <9> is written when the next letter is
this or that, <a> when it is that or this, and <cc> when it
is something else again. *I* say that they're all different
letters, and that the shape of the next letter is determined
by them. What do you say to that?"


That is a very good point, really. I honestly do not know
what made me look at the data the way I did, not even
contemplating one moment that the letter you have just
written should decide the shape of the letter you ar now
writing, rather the the shape of the letter you are writing
now being influenced by the letter you have not written yet.


Let us suppose that <a> and <cc> are different letters and
that they influence the shape of the next letter.

The letter <a> occurs 5106 times, 3.42 times as often as
<cc> (1492 times). Let us now look for a letter that could
have two shapes: one following <a>, the other following
<cc>. Presumably, we should expect the post-<a> shape to be
three times or so as frequent as the post-<cc> shape, and
the two shapes to be reminiscent of each other, for
instance, <2> and <S>, or <ig> and <cg>. Let's have a look
at the statistical evidence again:


        #    &    2    4    8    9    =    cc  c't   l;   lp   q;   S   
qp

   a     -    5 1066    2   15   11    6    -    4    1   14    3  
14    5
   cc    -    -    5    2  571  541    -    4    -    3   42    7   66  
19


        a    c    ct   cg   i    ig  iiv  iv    o    t    v    x

   a     1   18    5    7  267  253 1607  732   10    -   76  984
   cc   24  103    4    3    1    -    -    -   95    -    1    1


Well *I* can't see anything that remotely fits the bill. The
prime candidates, <2> and <S>, have such hugely different
frequencies next to <a> and <cc> that I cannot for the life
of me imagine how they could be equivalent, even though,
overall, <2> is about three times as frequent as <S>. As for
the next candidates, <cg> and <ig>, there is no compatible
pattern: <cg> occurs more often following <a> (natural,
since <a> is more frequent than <cc>), and <ig> never occurs
following <cc>.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May  6 21:02:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 20:58:57 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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I just recieved my hard-copy from Yale! So, I quickly glanced through
every page and got caught by the wierdo's on F57v(I think). It's the
page beside the one labled 58 that has 5 concentric rings of symbols and
words. Anyway, the second ring in from the outside has 17 symbols
repeating exactly in sequence four times starting from the "o" at 10:00.

	Any ideas about the 4 X 17? A lot of these symbols are definitely in
the wierdo category. In each run through the symbols there are some very
minor deviations in some characters - but they are definitely repeats.

			John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May  7 01:02:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 21:55:30 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: Transcription
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
> Subject: Re: Transcription
> Date: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 7:43 PM
> 
> > Risking the wrath of some, I'd still like to further
> > opinionate that: ...
> 
> > - the evidently intelligent Strong directed all his
> >   attention to an extremely complicated cipher solution
> >   that seems to disregard all the basic features of the
> >   VMs text and explains none of them. A case of (3) but
> >   admittedly to be confirmed
> 
> In regard to basic features being ignored by Strong, I think you will
find
> that he paid very close attention to detail, as best he could from the
poor
> quality copies found in Newbold's book.  Gabriel commented on a
particular
> wierdo character found in Strong's transcription, and commented that what
> he thought was a typo was actually a character when investigated.  That
is
> attention to detail.
> 
> The basic features of the manuscript "ignored" by Strong where unknown to
> him at the time he worked on the manuscript.  We all know about hand A
and
> hand B, but with only two reasonably readable pages, Strong could not
have
> made that analysis.  He never saw zodiac pages, or even the herbal and
> medicinal sections.  His interest was strictly in the cipher text, and
> nothing else - a very narrow focus.  No other researcher has maintained
> such a narrow focus on the text and achieved anything close to results.
> 
> Someone recently questioned the ability of a person to prove a solution
to
> the Voynich with only two pages, to which I responded that a single page
> was enough, as long as it defined a clear mathematical system of
> encipherment.  I am the first to admit that Strong's work does not define
> the system as clearly as we would all like it to be defined, but it does
> have certain features that stand out far beyond expected probability. 
> These features need to be examined with precision.
> 
> The primary argument presented to me by Denis against the viability of
> Strong's methodology is his cribbing.  Cribbing is an accepted part of
> preliminary decipherment work, and with only two pages to document, we
must
> consider some of Strong's work preliminary. Nevertheless, his research on
> these two pages has very significant features that cannot be ignored.  A
> further testament to the preliminary nature of his works is his two
> publications designed to influence the owners.  All he asked for was the
> ability to view the full manuscript and continue his research.  Request
> denied.
> 
> Strong did nothing outside the bounds of accepted practice in either his
> decipherment work or his publications, and I am certain he would have
been
> very upset to see his notes published before his work was completed.  His
> unfinished notes are unfortunately all we have to go on at this point,
and
> to state so derogatory an opinion without full knowledge of the work
would
> have been considered by Strong to be unethical and unprofessional in his
> time.  (He would also have frowned upon Internet chat groups.)
> 
> > ..we don't have to do a perfect job of
> > transcribing the VMs.
> > So long as we get *many* of the significant
>  > features right, we can still decipher it.
>  
> 
> I do not mean to portray myself as less than optimistic as far as a
Voynich
> solution - here I am extremely optimistic.  I am less than optimistic
that
> an only moderately diligent transcription can yield valuable results. 
Take
> Strong's complicated scheme as example.  If the Voynich is a progressive
> polyalphabetic cipher, every character and space counts, including minor
> modifications to each character.  The variations of each gallows
character
> could imply action, while the base character implies position.  This
would
> be a situation where careful logic and discernment must guide the hand of
> the transcriber.  One character out of place yields garbage beyond that
> point in decipherment.
> 
> If the Voynich were uncomplicated there would have been results by now. 
If
> it were a known European language it would have shown itself, and if it
> were an artificial language with a European base it would be far more
> structured than it actually is.  If it were Slavic, Mediterranean,
Arabian,
> Eurasian or Asian, it would be a contradiction of all known facts
> concerning the manuscript.  Levitov and Terrance McKenna be damned for
even
> suggesting the cult theory!  Too many drugs at an early age.
> 
> Sooner or later all known languages and combinations will be exhausted,
> which will leave code, cipher and fraud as the possibilities.  I just
don't
> want to wait around until 2735 A.D. for that to happen.  None of us would
> be here if we considered fraud as a working option, which would then
leave
> code and cipher.  Code and cipher have the same purpose, and that is to
> transmit information.  We run into the same problem with either, and that
> is the repetitive nature of the text, which is not as repetitive as we
> would like to to be for language, but too repetitive for accepted code
and
> cipher practice.  If it is a language it is a bastard child, if it is a
> code it is a bastard, and if it is a cipher it is a bastard.  The Voynich
> fits no known profile as we know it - or does it?
> 
> The common word beginnings and endings threw me for some time, but
> something from Strong's work sent me in another direction.  
> I would like to give you something to think about, which came from one of
> Strong's 3x5 card worksheets - would it make a difference to your
> understanding if I were writing in cipher and wrote the word "habit" in
any
> of these forms?  "hbait", "hbiat", "habit", "htabi"?  Strong's cue card
had
> "hbiit" in a single alphabet, but he wrote his decription as "habit". 
Not
> much to go on until I found other examples.  Was this just cribbing or a
> deeper understanding of the nature of the Voynich cipher?  Could the
> Voynich author have chosen the word he wished to use and sought out the
> order of characters that complied with his artistic style?  In plain
> English, could he have maintained word space, but scrambled the letters
> within a word group in such a way that text appearance was not
diminished? 
> And if he did this intentionally, what happens to entropy calculations? 
> yehT lafl ot cpiees notd yeth?
> 
> > And such optimism is what we need too :-)
> 
> I am in total agreement.  We need to be optimistic and open minded in
order
> to reach a solution.  We need to carry that optimism and open mindedness
> beyond linguistic discussion, following other realms of possibility.  We
> need to be discussing Baptista Porta and the wonderful works of Gustavus
> Selenus as well as languages and pseudo-languages.  We need input on
known
> codes from the suspected time period.  We need some input from the
English
> side as to York dialects and English ciphers through the 15th and 16th
> century.  We need some etymological background regarding Strong's
purported
> claim of English root, etc.  We need a revival of interest in solving the
> Voynich!
> 
> Here is where I insert MY opiniated statement:  A VSG skulker wrote me
> recently that senior members of the VSG seem to freely present their
> opinions unchallenged and promise solution soon, but never produce.  My
> reply was that there is no lack of exuberence and mental exercise in this
> group, and that the optimism shown is an example of the dedication of
group
> participants.  
> 
> My personal opinion differs greatly from my response.  I hear several of
us
> beating drums to time with our own speciality, of which I am one, but I
do
> not know how to change this.  I see some of us dropping out if the
> direction of research vacates our particular niche of research.  And why
> not?  We all consider ourselves correct.  The VSG is in my mind at
present
> a predominantly linguistic study group, and each time I make mention of
> cipher, my comments are greatly ignored.  Since your active membership is
> very small and focused primarily on linguistic discussion, I question my
> ability to access a fully interactive discussion on the topics I wish to
> address, and yet you are the only site who offers Voynich discussion.
> 
> I do understand one factor in all this, and it is the factor that has
kept
> me lonely in most of my research.  Human cipher is not a common
discipline,
> (especially with the advent of computer cipher), and the soul advantage
of
> human cipher is its relative obscurity.  The people who devote their
lives
> to this form of mathematics are few and far between.  I understand that
no
> one has responded to my comments because they do not know how to respond.

> But let me ask you this - if you are not gearing yourself up for cipher,
> how do you know that you have covered all of the possibilities of the
> Voynich?  Cipher goes far beyond the kindergarten descriptions of David
> Kahn.  Polyalphabetics go far beyond the simplistics of the Vigenere, and
> are much older than Porta.
> 
> What it all means to me is that I seem to be the only one talking about a
> certain possibility, and although the list has no choice but to listen,
> they certainly aren't comprehending.  I cannot teach because my ability
is
> innate.  And if I chose to teach, who would act as student?  My optimism
is
> certainly not showing right now.  Anybody know a group devoted to cipher?
 
>  
> 
> Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May  7 01:02:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 21:55:44 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: 4X17
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
> Subject: Re: 4X17
> Date: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 8:07 PM
> 
> > I just recieved my hard-copy from Yale! So, I quickly glanced through
> > every page and got caught by the wierdo's on F57v(I think). It's the
> > page beside the one labled 58 that has 5 concentric rings of symbols
and
> > words. Anyway, the second ring in from the outside has 17 symbols
> > repeating exactly in sequence four times starting from the "o" at
10:00.
> > 
> > 	Any ideas about the 4 X 17? A lot of these symbols are definitely in
> > the wierdo category. In each run through the symbols there are some
very
> > minor deviations in some characters - but they are definitely repeats.
> > 
> I have one reflection on the number 17 that is of service in the cipher
> realm, and comes from an 11th century notion concerning Cabalistic
> numbering systems.  By the 15th century there were 17 recognized
> consonants, but the number of vowels varied.  In the 16th century Dee
used
> the combination of 17 and 7 to represent his English alphabet of 24
needed
> symbols, the seven extra being vowels.  Many authors would follow this
> hebraic system and omit vowels from their key or text to thwart
> decipherment.  The Monas Heiroglyphica as actually drawn demonstrates the
> 17 consonant positions and their shifted locations, leaving the discovery
> of the vowel positioning up to the reader by context.  This is clearly
> stated as a 17 and 7 system within the text of the manuscript, although
> other systems differed in the amount of vowels used.  Vowels can be
> considered A, E, I, O, U, V, W, and sometimes Y.  There are even
instances
> where the latin I and the English Y and J coincide as vowels.  This was a
> long time before Webster!
> 
> I don't know if this is of help.
> 
> 
> Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May  7 04:02:02 1997
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Rayman wrote:

> In regard to basic features being ignored by Strong, I think
> you will find that he paid very close attention to detail..
> The basic features of the manuscript "ignored" by Strong where > unknown
to him at the time he worked on the manuscript....

I should have been more precise but I only have so much time
to type...
The features I was thinking of are what Tiltman refers to
in his introduction to D'Imperio. What really jumps out
among these is the high repetitiveness of the text, fully
evident in the few pages available to Strong.

>> ..we don't have to do a perfect job of
>> transcribing the VMs.
>> So long as we get *many* of the significant
 >> features right, we can still decipher it.

> I am less than optimistic that an only moderately diligent
> transcription can yield valuable results.  Take Strong's
> complicated scheme as example.  If the Voynich is a progressive >
polyalphabetic cipher, every character and space counts,
> including minor modifications to each character.

I realise that none of the existing transcriptions provide
all the information needed to apply Strong's decipherment,
and this is even true of our future transcription.
However, I feel that a code that relies on such details
may prove to be uncrackable (is that English?). If ocasionally
a progression is interrupted, it *must* be possible to
'pick up' again later on, otherwise we can forget it.
If details are really important, these details should be
discernible in the Ms, otherwise we can also forget it.
If for the decipherment it really matters *a lot* whether
two C's are ligatured into one S or not, the VMs writer
has certainly made sure nobody could ever read the Ms.

> None of us would be here if we considered fraud as a
> working option...

But we can't keep the option from the back of our mind,
and we should be on the lookout for evidence of fraud
all the time!

> We need to carry that optimism and open mindedness beyond
> linguistic discussion, following other realms of possibility.

Absolutely. But even if the Ms is the result of some encryption,
there is a language behind it, in the plaintext.
So linguistic attacks are needed with a 100% certainty.

I may be completely off here (and someone please correct
me if so), but I would prefer linguistic clues for the
presence of a cipher over cryptanalytical ones.

Also, I think you underestimate the cryptanalytical expertise
in the group, also when it comes to pre-computer times.
Mine is totally negligible, as you know, and it is not
reasonable for me to assume I could now start and learn things
and later on find that clue that all the past and
current experts missed.

I would not like to see less diversity in the group,
but rather more. If a clue comes up one day,
I expect it to come from an unexpected direction.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May  7 09:47:02 1997
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Subject: Re: Fw: Transcription
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On Tue, 6 May 1997, rmalek wrote:

> > Someone recently questioned the ability of a person to prove a solution
> to
> > the Voynich with only two pages, to which I responded that a single page
> > was enough, as long as it defined a clear mathematical system of
> > encipherment.  I am the first to admit that Strong's work does not define
> > the system as clearly as we would all like it to be defined, but it does
> > have certain features that stand out far beyond expected probability. 
> > These features need to be examined with precision.

	Here I only meant that two pages isn't enough to define a *unique*
solution.  You are aware of the various "Shakespearean" ciphers.  Stojko
came up with one solution on about 10 VMs folios and Levitov came up with
another solution on about 24 folios; I consider neither of them valid.
The VMs system is complex enough that it will have to be applied to all or
much of the text to see anything.  If a polyalphabetic system produces
meaningful text out of a large portion of text, I'll gladly believe it!

> Take
> > Strong's complicated scheme as example.  If the Voynich is a progressive
> > polyalphabetic cipher, every character and space counts, including minor
> > modifications to each character.  The variations of each gallows
> character
> > could imply action, while the base character implies position.  This
> would
> > be a situation where careful logic and discernment must guide the hand of
> > the transcriber.  One character out of place yields garbage beyond that
> > point in decipherment.

	You know what to do when this happens by a character's being
garbled in radio transmission of an autokey polyalphabetic ciphertext. 
You experiment with various substitutes for the garbled character until
the text starts making sense again.

> > claim of English root, etc.  We need a revival of interest in solving the
> > Voynich!

	Here I have a pet idea.  I remember that D'Imperio said that the
original is "magnificent".  No one recognizes the artistic value of the
VMs because all the copies are so poor!  Perhaps we could make some
artistic reconstructions of some diagrams in color.  I think that the
circular diagrams would make fine mandala art.  If these were presented as
artistic reconstructions, perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about Yale.
Levitov traced the VMs folios and didn't get Yale's permission.   

	The artistic value of good reconstructions might generate much
more public interest in the VMs.
  
>> I do understand one factor in all this, and it is the factor that has
> kept
> > me lonely in most of my research.  Human cipher is not a common
> discipline,
> > (especially with the advent of computer cipher), and the soul advantage
> of
> > human cipher is its relative obscurity.  The people who devote their
> lives
> > to this form of mathematics are few and far between.  I understand that
> no
> > one has responded to my comments because they do not know how to respond.

	Jim Reeds and Jim Gillogly are real heavyweight crippies (is that
a contradiction?  ;-)  ), and not just with computer ciphers!  I'm quite
sure they know how to respond.  

Dennis


From reeds Wed May  7 10:21:30 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9705071021.ZM9206@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:21:30 -0400
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Re: Fw: Transcription" (May  7,  9:29)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970507090647.23442A-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Fw: Transcription
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Status: OR

On May 7,  9:29, Dennis wrote  (in partial rebuttal to Rayman):

...
> 	Jim Reeds and Jim Gillogly are real heavyweight crippies (is that
> a contradiction?  ;-)  ), and not just with computer ciphers!  I'm quite
> sure they know how to respond.  

I consider Jim Gillogly more skilled at solving hand ciphers than me, and I
suspect there might be even better solvers subscribing to this mailing
list.   I, however, am more seriously overweight than Gillogly.

I agree with Rene and Tiltman and so on that the main feature of the VMS
text is its high repetitiveness, completely uncharacteristic of Vigenere,
Porta, etc style polyalphabetic ciphers.  Models that explain this
repetitiveness (like the EKT hyptothesis, on the cipher side, or glossolalia
production models, on the nonsense side) are the way to go.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997: 
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 360 8178


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May  7 13:56:05 1997
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On May 7,  9:29, Dennis wrote  (in partial rebuttal to Rayman):

...
>    Jim Reeds and Jim Gillogly are real heavyweight crippies (is that
> a contradiction?  ;-)  ), and not just with computer ciphers!  I'm quite
> sure they know how to respond.

I consider Jim Gillogly more skilled at solving hand ciphers than me, and I
suspect there might be even better solvers subscribing to this mailing
list.   I, however, am more seriously overweight than Gillogly.

I agree with Rene and Tiltman and so on that the main feature of the VMS
text is its high repetitiveness, completely uncharacteristic of Vigenere,
Porta, etc style polyalphabetic ciphers.  Models that explain this
repetitiveness (like the EKT hyptothesis, on the cipher side, or
glossolalia production models, on the nonsense side) are the way to go.

--
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997:
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 360 8178


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May  7 14:02:03 1997
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On Tue, 6 May 1997, rmalek wrote:

> > Someone recently questioned the ability of a person to prove a solution
> to
> > the Voynich with only two pages, to which I responded that a single
page
> > was enough, as long as it defined a clear mathematical system of
> > encipherment.  I am the first to admit that Strong's work does not
define > > the system as clearly as we would all like it to be defined, but
it does > > have certain features that stand out far beyond expected
probability.
> > These features need to be examined with precision.

 Here I only meant that two pages isn't enough to define a *unique*
solution.  You are aware of the various "Shakespearean" ciphers.  Stojko
came up with one solution on about 10 VMs folios and Levitov came up with
another solution on about 24 folios; I consider neither of them valid.
The VMs system is complex enough that it will have to be applied to all or
much of the text to see anything.  If a polyalphabetic system produces
meaningful text out of a large portion of text, I'll gladly believe it!

> Take
> > Strong's complicated scheme as example.  If the Voynich is a
progressive > > polyalphabetic cipher, every character and space counts,
including minor
> > modifications to each character.  The variations of each gallows
> character
> > could imply action, while the base character implies position.  This
> would
> > be a situation where careful logic and discernment must guide the hand
of > > the transcriber.  One character out of place yields garbage beyond
that > > point in decipherment.

 You know what to do when this happens by a character's being
garbled in radio transmission of an autokey polyalphabetic ciphertext.
You experiment with various substitutes for the garbled character until
the text starts making sense again.

> > claim of English root, etc.  We need a revival of interest in solving
the > > Voynich!

 Here I have a pet idea.  I remember that D'Imperio said that the
original is "magnificent".  No one recognizes the artistic value of the
VMs because all the copies are so poor!  Perhaps we could make some
artistic reconstructions of some diagrams in color.  I think that the
circular diagrams would make fine mandala art.  If these were presented as
artistic reconstructions, perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about Yale.
Levitov traced the VMs folios and didn't get Yale's permission.

 The artistic value of good reconstructions might generate much
more public interest in the VMs.

>> I do understand one factor in all this, and it is the factor that has
> kept
> > me lonely in most of my research.  Human cipher is not a common
> discipline,
> > (especially with the advent of computer cipher), and the soul advantage
> of
> > human cipher is its relative obscurity.  The people who devote their
> lives
> > to this form of mathematics are few and far between.  I understand that
> no
> > one has responded to my comments because they do not know how to
respond.

 Jim Reeds and Jim Gillogly are real heavyweight crippies (is that
a contradiction?  ;-)  ), and not just with computer ciphers!  I'm quite
sure they know how to respond.

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May  7 14:05:02 1997
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On May 7,  9:29, Dennis wrote  (in partial rebuttal to Rayman):

...
>    Jim Reeds and Jim Gillogly are real heavyweight crippies (is that
> a contradiction?  ;-)  ), and not just with computer ciphers!  I'm quite
> sure they know how to respond.

I consider Jim Gillogly more skilled at solving hand ciphers than me, and I
suspect there might be even better solvers subscribing to this mailing
list.   I, however, am more seriously overweight than Gillogly.

I agree with Rene and Tiltman and so on that the main feature of the VMS
text is its high repetitiveness, completely uncharacteristic of Vigenere,
Porta, etc style polyalphabetic ciphers.  Models that explain this
repetitiveness (like the EKT hyptothesis, on the cipher side, or
glossolalia production models, on the nonsense side) are the way to go.

--
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room 2C-357
600 Mountain Avenue, Murray Hill, NJ 07974, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 908 582 7066, fax: +1 908 582 2379

AFTER 16 May 1997:
   AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229, 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932
   reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 201 360 8414, fax: +1 201 360 8178


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  8 03:17:03 1997
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Dennis writes:

 > Here I have a pet idea.  I remember that D'Imperio said that
 > the original is "magnificent".  No one recognizes the artistic
 > value of the VMs because all the copies are so poor!
 > Perhaps we could make some artistic reconstructions of some
 > diagrams in color.  I think that the circular diagrams would
 > make fine mandala art.  If these were presented as artistic
 > reconstructions, perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about Yale.
 > Levitov traced the VMs folios and didn't get Yale's permission.

Apart from the legal aspect of this, I am in full agreement.
I like the idea very much. (Mind you, I don't think it is
going to help us one inch in the decipherment).
I am just about ready to go on a two week trip to Crete again.
Last time I mentioned how T-shirts, key rings, towels
etc, etc with the Phaistos disk on it were being sold
everywhere.  The parallel is obvious. Of course the Phaistos
disk has become the symbol of Crete whereas the VMs is
just a ME Ms that people are discouraged to pay attention
to.
I do think, however, that we would certainly attract Yale's
attention if we just started selling VMs key rings and
coffee mugs :-)

Cheers, Rene




From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  8 04:08:01 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:45:48 +0000
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Status: OR

On  8 May 97 at 8:55, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> Dennis writes:
> 
>  > Here I have a pet idea.  I remember that D'Imperio said that
>  > the original is "magnificent".  No one recognizes the artistic
>  > value of the VMs because all the copies are so poor!
>  > Perhaps we could make some artistic reconstructions of some
>  > diagrams in color.  I think that the circular diagrams would
>  > make fine mandala art.  If these were presented as artistic
>  > reconstructions, perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about Yale.
>  > Levitov traced the VMs folios and didn't get Yale's permission.
> 
> Apart from the legal aspect of this, I am in full agreement.
> I like the idea very much. (Mind you, I don't think it is
> going to help us one inch in the decipherment).

Actually I've been investigating this a bit. I wanted to reconstruct 
the circles using the TT fonts and "Word Art" in Word 6 which allows 
you to write in a circle.
It is a bit difficult to get things aligned, though....

cheers,

Gabriel 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  8 10:56:03 1997
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    From   Denis V Mardle, CBE             8  May  1997

 I think the debate about the VMs as cipher, code or
an unknown language ( natural or otherwise ) is getting
rather heated  with no replies possible from those now
dead.
 There is clearly a mixture of talents in the group and I
for one am picking up information on the early Middle
Ages that will prove even more valuable when I have
time to re-study my In-tray.      I was a professional
cryptologist with a main interest in cryptanalysis from
1952 to 1989 so I had considerable experience of
hand and machine ciphers not only from my efforts
but also from those of my expert colleagues.
  I try to be objective in looking at our problem ( which
is clearly a major hurdle to solve ) and not rule out any
ideas but to put them in a rough order of probability.
  I am of course fully aware of modern problems re
garbles, messages with characters added or dropped,
etc. together with the techniques for dealing with them.

 One of our main problems is -  Are there nulls and
dummies if it is plain text ( possibly altered by a simple
substitution ) since the text is so rough and structured.

 I give the above a 50-50 chance.
 I believe this is solvable with modern computers.

 Next is a code or universal language with the begin,
middle, end structure of 'words' that is so obvious

 I give this a 40-60 chance
This might be soluble but it will be hard work to get
started and various trials may be necessary before
we hit on the right one(s).
 I am plumping for 'labels' to give us the critical entry
to the system.    See my message
  
Another opening word     of
    Tue, 18 Feb 97 16:08:19 GMT  

This covers f57v and 8ATAE = 'Begin or Start etc.'
I suggest John and Sue Groves look at that one again
now that they have f57v.

There is a follow up
 
8ATAE is not alone

of   Mon, 17 Mar 97 15:15:04 GMT  

The final 10% chance covers everything else including
polyalphabetic substitution which was given by
Leon Battista Alberti in 1466 or 1467 when he was 
62 or 63 years old.   He was the one who invented
the copper disks ( plates ) , one fixed and one
rotating.   He had 24 equal parts for the alphabet
round the circumference.   I am willing to say it
is odds-on that he got the idea from the Astrolabe
which had the 24 hours round the cirumference and
had parts made of brass.  Incidentally the Arabic version
which came first did not have this feature of showing
the time directly.
   It is very clear from Kahn's book ( which is a superb
history of the subject ) that Alberti knew what he was doing
and was the first person we know of to explain
cryptanalysis.

 Finally, Dr Strong's method.   He does not decipher the text
to get plain text but enciphers plain text words often sqeezed
to fit the word lengths he wants.  Ther is a world of difference
between the two methods.     When one has 6 long
cipher repeats the plain he puts in does not repeat even
when his slide sequence repeats.   Taken with the additional
cipher flatness that would arise from his extra requirements
of multiple keys ( alphabets ) I cannot discern any juice in
his method except for the agreement of 'word' lengths.
Raymand's example of 'habit' turned into 'hbit' to fita four
symbol cipher word is, to put it mildly, irregular.  Not that
I am saying any word can have vowels dropped, but I am 
saying that the resulting fit to cipher must be most probable
and not just the best of a large bunch that could  make
even better sense.    In particular I can see no reason why
he has put Askam near the end of f93r when any other
5-letter name would do.

Arrows from all directions expected.

Denis 


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May  8 11:08:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:39:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Voynich Art
In-Reply-To: <9705080746.AA17847@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
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	For anyone wanting to do Voynich art: you can order higher quality
copies from Yale for single pages.  

The price for a single color copy in 1977 was: 

    35 mm. slide                     $12.00
    color transparency (4x5 inches)  $15.00
    color negative (4x5 inches)      $10.00

    The library number for Voynich manuscript is MS 408.  I don't have
more recent info at hand.  

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May  9 00:29:02 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: VMs as cipher
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:28:30 -0600
Encoding: 111 TEXT
Status: OR



 I think the debate about the VMs as cipher, code or
an unknown language ( natural or otherwise ) is getting
rather heated  with no replies possible from those now
dead.
 There is clearly a mixture of talents in the group and I
for one am picking up information on the early Middle
Ages that will prove even more valuable when I have
time to re-study my In-tray.      I was a professional
cryptologist with a main interest in cryptanalysis from
1952 to 1989 so I had considerable experience of
hand and machine ciphers not only from my efforts
but also from those of my expert colleagues.
  I try to be objective in looking at our problem ( which
is clearly a major hurdle to solve ) and not rule out any
ideas but to put them in a rough order of probability.
  I am of course fully aware of modern problems re
garbles, messages with characters added or dropped,
etc. together with the techniques for dealing with them.

 One of our main problems is -  Are there nulls and
dummies if it is plain text ( possibly altered by a simple
substitution ) since the text is so rough and structured.

 I give the above a 50-50 chance.
 I believe this is solvable with modern computers.

 Next is a code or universal language with the begin,
middle, end structure of 'words' that is so obvious

 I give this a 40-60 chance
This might be soluble but it will be hard work to get
started and various trials may be necessary before
we hit on the right one(s).
 I am plumping for 'labels' to give us the critical entry
to the system.    See my message

Another opening word     of
    Tue, 18 Feb 97 16:08:19 GMT

This covers f57v and 8ATAE = 'Begin or Start etc.'
I suggest John and Sue Groves look at that one again
now that they have f57v.

There is a follow up

8ATAE is not alone

of   Mon, 17 Mar 97 15:15:04 GMT

The final 10% chance covers everything else including
polyalphabetic substitution which was given by
Leon Battista Alberti in 1466 or 1467 when he was
62 or 63 years old.   He was the one who invented
the copper disks ( plates ) , one fixed and one
rotating.   He had 24 equal parts for the alphabet
round the circumference.   I am willing to say it
is odds-on that he got the idea from the Astrolabe
which had the 24 hours round the cirumference and
had parts made of brass.  Incidentally the Arabic version
which came first did not have this feature of showing
the time directly.
   It is very clear from Kahn's book ( which is a superb
history of the subject ) that Alberti knew what he was doing
and was the first person we know of to explain
cryptanalysis.

 Finally, Dr Strong's method.   He does not decipher the text
to get plain text but enciphers plain text words often sqeezed
to fit the word lengths he wants.  Ther is a world of difference
between the two methods.     When one has 6 long
cipher repeats the plain he puts in does not repeat even
when his slide sequence repeats.   Taken with the additional
cipher flatness that would arise from his extra requirements
of multiple keys ( alphabets ) I cannot discern any juice in
his method except for the agreement of 'word' lengths.
Raymand's example of 'habit' turned into 'hbit' to fita four
symbol cipher word is, to put it mildly, irregular.  Not that
I am saying any word can have vowels dropped, but I am
saying that the resulting fit to cipher must be most probable
and not just the best of a large bunch that could  make
even better sense.    In particular I can see no reason why
he has put Askam near the end of f93r when any other
5-letter name would do.

Arrows from all directions expected.

Heck, Dennis, no arrows. The "solutions" to the VMS all seem to have the 
same characteristics.  A lone solver grabs something that looks promising 
and begins to build a theory. The theory becomes more tortured as it is 
forced to fit the text. Eventually the theory becomes a system with 
aberrations explained away, and, thanks to positive psychological feedback, 
the text becomes clear as glass.  Attempts to explain to others fail, 
because the structure of the system cannot be explained without the 
explainee entering into the rationalizations that were necessary to 
construct the system.  The solver then begins to attack the explainee(s), 
and so on. I've observed this in many other areas, such as "free" energy, 
or perpetual motion, and even in such brilliant people as Nicola Tesla.
The existence of an open, sharing group such as this one helps prevent the 
situation I've described. In fact, peer review, and the existence of the 
freedom to shout "rubbish" (which is, I take it, the Brit's equivalent of 
"you're full of it") is one of the things that makes the scientific method 
so darn powerful.  Well, enough tergiversation.

Best to all, and keep the arrows coming...
Don





From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 11 00:44:12 1997
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Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:38:29 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: VMs as cipher
To: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> Heck, Dennis, no arrows. The "solutions" to the VMS all seem to have the 
> same characteristics.  A lone solver grabs something that looks promising

> and begins to build a theory. The theory becomes more tortured as it is 
> forced to fit the text. Eventually the theory becomes a system with 
> aberrations explained away, and, thanks to positive psychological
feedback, 
> the text becomes clear as glass.  Attempts to explain to others fail, 
> because the structure of the system cannot be explained without the 
> explainee entering into the rationalizations that were necessary to 
> construct the system.  The solver then begins to attack the explainee(s),

> and so on. I've observed this in many other areas, such as "free" energy,

> or perpetual motion, and even in such brilliant people as Nicola Tesla.
> The existence of an open, sharing group such as this one helps prevent
the 
> situation I've described. In fact, peer review, and the existence of the 
> freedom to shout "rubbish" (which is, I take it, the Brit's equivalent of

> "you're full of it") is one of the things that makes the scientific
method 
> so darn powerful.  Well, enough tergiversation.

Gosh, Don, could this be a reference to MY comments to Denis (not Dennis),
or is it more plausible a statement that the history of the Voynich
demonstrates the scientific method far better than many of us would like to
admit?  The history of the Voynich is one philosophy attacking another
without any real proof either way, and you have just proved that it lives
and thrives in the VSG.

My conversation with Denis concerned documents in our mutual possession,
and unless I missed something, you do not have a copy of these documents. 
That means to me that any purely scientific comment from you could only be
limited to "I have not yet viewed the data".

I firmly believe in the power of scientific study, and I am also appalled
at the aberations of these studies that I have observed in the name of
science.  Why shouldn't I be?  The bastardization of any religion for
personal preference or gain is a sin, and science is truly a religious
pursuit.

I do not apologize if I stepped on your scientific toes, because I am a
believer in true science, not government subsidized science.  My beliefs do
not have to be attached to any political purpose in order to work, much
unlike the latest studies on second-hand smoke.

If you want to get in on this argument in a scientific way, you need the
facts.  You can acquire the work from me, from Denis Mardle, from Jim
Reeds, or a large portion from Gabriel Landini.  In short, I am not working
from some secret codex, I am working from a set of documents that people
interested actually possess.  My suggestion to you is to get interested and
obtain a copy if you choose to make these comments in the future.

I have made my comments on the work, and even Denis hasn't come back to ask
me where I find what I see.  When someone actually asks my interpretation
of folio 78r, line 3, character 17, then I have something specific to say. 
To date this has not become a reality.  I offered my starting tables to
anyone concerned, and I note you did not request them. (And neither has
anyone else.)  What can I conclude from this response, Don, except to say
that you and many others have no interest in anything regarding a solution
to the problem?

The Voynich is not an artificial language, nor an example of any known
language in its natural form.  It must be fun to ponder in this direction,
but you and I both know the direction of research is incorrect.  The
Voynich is 15th - 16th century European in origin, and is far too random
for an artificial language from this time period or language base.  Get a
clue - the random nature versus the apparent structured text denotes only
one thing - cipher.  The structure even reduces code as a possibility. 
Cipher is all that is left.  And don't give me that argument that no
vigenere cipher could produce such a thing.  Of course it couldn't.  This
is far beyond what was known for the time period.  If it weren't I'd be
surprised.

And as a final point, Don, your free and open board allows you to attack
work you have never seen or evaluated, which is in direct contradiction to
scientific methods.  What you really meant to say is that your free and
open board gives you the right to say what you think without qualification
of any sort, scientific or otherwise, and that is what you really enjoy.  I
for one can get the same opinions on Oprah, without signing on here.  I'm
here because this is the VOYNICH Study Group, which suggests an interest in
the solution to the Voynich.

If you don't like the letter I sent to Denis, gather the facts and prove me
wrong.  I will accept any specific argument.  In any case, enter an
argument only when you are sure of your footing.  It looks like I will be
writing the history of Voynich research after all, even after I tried to
give it away, and I would not wish to mention anyone unkindly.

Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 11 01:02:02 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: "'rmalek'" <madimi@internetmci.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: VMs as cipher
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:59:19 -0600
Encoding: 36 TEXT
Status: OR



----------
From: 	rmalek[SMTP:madimi@internetmci.com]
Sent: 	Saturday, May 10, 1997 22:38
To: 	Don Latham
Cc: 	VSG
Subject: 	Re: VMs as cipher

> Heck, Dennis, no arrows. The "solutions" to the VMS all seem to have the 
> same characteristics.  A lone solver grabs something that looks promising

> and begins to build a theory. The theory becomes more tortured as it is 
> forced to fit the text. Eventually the theory becomes a system with 
> aberrations explained away, and, thanks to positive psychological
feedback, 
> the text becomes clear as glass.  Attempts to explain to others fail, 
> because the structure of the system cannot be explained without the 
> explainee entering into the rationalizations that were necessary to 
> construct the system.  The solver then begins to attack the explainee(s),

> and so on. I've observed this in many other areas, such as "free" energy,

> or perpetual motion, and even in such brilliant people as Nicola Tesla.
> The existence of an open, sharing group such as this one helps prevent
the 
> situation I've described. In fact, peer review, and the existence of the 
> freedom to shout "rubbish" (which is, I take it, the Brit's equivalent of

> "you're full of it") is one of the things that makes the scientific
method 
> so darn powerful.  Well, enough tergiversation.

Gosh, Don, could this be a reference to MY comments to Denis (not Dennis),

no, and I meant no specific person.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 11 01:08:06 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: VMs as cipher
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:07:06 -0600
Encoding: 27 TEXT
Status: OR


Heck, Dennis, no arrows. The "solutions" to the VMS all seem to have the 
same characteristics.  A lone solver grabs something that looks promising 
and begins to build a theory. The theory becomes more tortured as it is 
forced to fit the text. Eventually the theory becomes a system with 
aberrations explained away, and, thanks to positive psychological feedback, 
the text becomes clear as glass.  Attempts to explain to others fail, 
because the structure of the system cannot be explained without the 
explainee entering into the rationalizations that were necessary to 
construct the system.  The solver then begins to attack the explainee(s), 
and so on. I've observed this in many other areas, such as "free" energy, 
or perpetual motion, and even in such brilliant people as Nicola Tesla.
The existence of an open, sharing group such as this one helps prevent the 
situation I've described. In fact, peer review, and the existence of the 
freedom to shout "rubbish" (which is, I take it, the Brit's equivalent of 
"you're full of it") is one of the things that makes the scientific method 
so darn powerful.  Well, enough tergiversation.

Best to all, and keep the arrows coming...
Don

Apparently this contribution has been interpreted by some as a flame of some kind.  I intended no such thing. 
Best to all,
Don




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 11 01:35:10 1997
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Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:31:39 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: VMs as cipher
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
> Subject: Re: VMs as cipher
> Date: Saturday, May 10, 1997 10:19 PM
> 
> > Heck, Dennis, no arrows. The "solutions" to the VMS all seem to have
the 
> > same characteristics.  A lone solver grabs something that looks
promising
> 
> > and begins to build a theory. The theory becomes more tortured as it is

> > forced to fit the text. Eventually the theory becomes a system with 
> > aberrations explained away, and, thanks to positive psychological
> feedback, 
> > the text becomes clear as glass.  Attempts to explain to others fail, 
> > because the structure of the system cannot be explained without the 
> > explainee entering into the rationalizations that were necessary to 
> > construct the system.  The solver then begins to attack the
explainee(s),
> 
> > and so on. I've observed this in many other areas, such as "free"
energy,
> 
> > or perpetual motion, and even in such brilliant people as Nicola Tesla.
> > The existence of an open, sharing group such as this one helps prevent
> the 
> > situation I've described. In fact, peer review, and the existence of
the 
> > freedom to shout "rubbish" (which is, I take it, the Brit's equivalent
of
> 
> > "you're full of it") is one of the things that makes the scientific
> method 
> > so darn powerful.  Well, enough tergiversation.
> > 
> > Best to all, and keep the arrows coming...
> > Don
> > 
> > Apparently this contribution has been interpreted by some as a flame of
> some kind.  I intended no such thing. 
> > Best to all,
> > Don
> 
> Don, I did not interpret your message as a flame, and my response was not
a
> flame by the same interpretation.  I interpreted your remarks as a less
> than educated opinion about a topic you are unfamiliar with, nothing
more. 
> No harm done.
> 
> 
> Regards,  Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 11 05:32:02 1997
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I did not feel that Don's criticism of the process of how some rejected
solutions
of the VMs came to pass was either specifically or even primarily
directed towards Strong's solution which I think is still officially
regarded as 'open for judgement'.
I share his sentiment regarding the other solutions, especially since
we are blessed with good 'hindsight'. It cannot be stated as fact that
the same process applied to Strong's solution, but it cannot be excluced
either.

And I also think (this admittedly is a critical comment which could easily
be interpreted as a mild flame) that 'the scientific method' should make a
person who has a theory keep an open mind towards the possibility that
this theory could be wrong. Otherwise no discussion is possible, or
rather they will tend to assume the shape of flame wars.

This is just my opinion, but I think it is quite reasonable.
And apologies for launching this message just prior to being
unavailable for two weeks. If anyone wants to take up this
point (off the list please) I will resond after my holidays.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 11 12:35:01 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Comments on Strong's Work
Date: Sun, 11 May 97 17:22:08 +0100 ( + )
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           From Denis  Mardle                 11 May 1997

 Rayman

 As arrows seem to be going over my head at
present I have put my armour on and looked
again at my analysis of Dr. Strong's worksheets
and am putting my work so far to you and the
VMs list.

A).   My reconstruction of f93r was able to place
  almost every word of Strong's plain text against
a worksheet obtained from the interln file which
has both Currier and FSG transcriptions. I
accepted Strong's word lengths even when one
or both of the C & F versions suggested two words,
similarly when Strong had two words and C & F had
one.  Places where word lengths differed were as follows

  Line  1        C&F          OCBS.FZCC9
  Assumed    Strong      SVCK  UMB E     CC as one symbol
  Probable    Slide          7531    474  1

   Line  2        C     ZCO*  .2.OPCO8AE.%% R.  OBSO%Z9.XAZOE-
                      F     Z%O%.2.OPCO8AE% 2.%%.OVSO .Z9.QOZOE-
           Ass.   Str   ALSO   A LUVVLVO   A        POMV ME WAKES
           Pr.     Sl.    5314    7 41 3579 7    5      ( 5 3 14  74  1 3 5 79 )

 But his continuation may be one to the left as ALSO may be ALS

  There are similar problems , usually zero or one per line
all the way through.  I will try to produce a complete
analysis in the next couple of weeks.

  The first words from Strong's text on each line are 

 BLIKUS;  MADE;  THE;  CAN;  HE;  DRI;  WET;  
 COMPOUND(E);   RECIN;  PILER;  STIRT;  KOTEN;  
 PLINI;  HWIT;  RUES;  ONES;  EASE;  ASTRAL;  
 SOUP;  ON FORE;  TOO;  ALUM;  EASE;  HOLDE;  
 ENTE;  PAPRIKA;  COKED;  LUNG;  (N or M )OT;  
 DOKTR;  TO;  ALL.

 The end of line 11 ( before KOTEN ) has 'THE' missed
in his hand-written text and other words are sometimes
unclear.
 The slides starting on each line are much more of a
problem.  The best I could get to fit W15 was, giving the 
first 5 of each line

 01357;  13579;  75314;  47413;  14741;  13579;  31474;  
 41357;  53147;  41357;  53147;  75314;  35797;  97531;
 but I have not placed the next 14 lines and some of the
above may have gone off cut.  Tentatively the last four
lines are     53147;  53147;  14741;  74135 or less likely
14741;  14741;  74135;  13579

  I have gone back to f78r and I hope to put my results
on the computer soon as I have just rechecked my
table for the entire text.  I have to pack up for todayso

 Best wishes           Denis
 


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 12 01:11:01 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:08:12 -0600
Encoding: 4 TEXT
Status: OR

Am I correct in the recollection that the B portion of the VMS has a lower 
entropy than the A? I seem to recall that the B is somehow less complex 
than the A.
Best, Don

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 12 04:17:02 1997
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From: "David R. Jones" <jdnolan@budget.net>
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subscribe

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 12 09:41:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:25:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
cc: "'voynich'" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Entropy of A vs B (WAS: your mail)
In-Reply-To: <01BC5E60.36AE5F80@mso3-92.montana.com>
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, Don Latham wrote:

> Am I correct in the recollection that the B portion of the VMS has a lower 
> entropy than the A? I seem to recall that the B is somehow less complex 
> than the A.

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Dennis wrote:

> Subject : Re: My MONKEY Messup of VMs Text Results
> 
> NEW RESULTS
> May 2, 1997 21:24 GMT
> 
>                     # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
> File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
> Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
> -----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------
> 
> 
> voyas.cur      33    9804   5.044   3.792   2.313   1.479   39.0   22.9
> voyb.cur       34   13858   5.087   3.796   2.267   1.529   40.3   22.3
> voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
> voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5
> voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   1.812   47.7   22.7
> voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   1.778   46.1   23.7
> voyas.guy      19   13539   4.248   3.710   1.951   1.759   47.4   23.0
> voyb.guy       19   17975   4.248   3.749   1.999   1.750   46.7   23.5

	These are samples of herbal text.  The entropies of A are higher
that B for the transcription alphabets with larger character sets, but
it's the other way around with the alphabets with smaller character sets.
These are small samples and the difference isn't great.  

	Have a look at Rene Zandbergen's paper "Currier A and B: two
different languages?" on the EVMT home page.  He discusses the
characteristics of various forms of A and B at some length.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 12 10:35:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:22:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: ibm2iso
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970512101810.8379D-200000@candy.micro-net.com>
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Status: OR

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

---559023410-1804928587-863446933=:8379
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

	Not strictly Voynichological, but many on the list will find it
useful.  ibm2iso is a BITRANS script that converts the
non-English-language and math characters in the IBM extended-ASCII
character set to the ISO-8859-1 set used in HTML documents and
non-English-language newsgroups.  At least, the characters the two sets
have in common.  It works backwards too.

Dennis
 

---559023410-1804928587-863446933=:8379
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Content-Description: 

KGNvbW1lbnQpIFRoaXMgc2NyaXB0IGNoYW5nZXMgbWFueSBJQk0gZXh0ZW5k
ZWQgQVNDSUkgbm9uLUVuZ2xpc2ggYW5kIG1hdGgNCihjb21tZW50KSBjaGFy
YWN0ZXJzIHRvIHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0IElTTy04ODU5LTEgdmFsdWVzDQooY29t
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cnNlIGRpcmVjdGlvbi4NCqAgXDIyNQ0KhSBcMjI0DQqDIFwyMjYNCoQgXDIy
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IFwyNTINCpogXDIyMA0KmCBcMjU1DQqHIFwyMzENCoAgXDE5OQ0KpCBcMjQx
DQqlIFwyMDkNCqogXDE3Mg0KmyBcMTYyDQqcIFwxNjMNCp0gXDE2NQ0KpiBc
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IGxlYXZlIHRoZSBiYWNrc2xhc2ggYXMgaXMgaW4gbm9ybWFsIHRleHQsDQoo
Y29tbWVudCkgdGhlIHNwZWNpYWwgY2hhcmFjdGVyIG1hcmtlciBpcyByZWRl
ZmluZWQgYXMgXDAwOA0KXD0IDQo=
---559023410-1804928587-863446933=:8379--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 12 14:56:11 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:45:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Serious Monkey Business
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970512143825.6641A-100000@candy.micro-net.com>
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Status: OR

	Have a look at:

Monkeys Typing Shakespeare
http://bronte.cs.utas.edu.au/monkey/

	The program is trying to type "to be or not be that is the
question."  The program has been running since Tue Jul 23 14:04:13 1996
time best was found Wed Feb 12 01:53:30 1997 (30% of correct letters).  At
certain levels the monkey is rewarded with Bananas.

	At the University of Tasmania, no less.  Looks like a consulting
job for Jacques.  ;-)

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 12 16:59:02 1997
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Subject: Re: Serious Monkey Business
To: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:53:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970512143825.6641A-100000@candy.micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at May 12, 97 02:45:10 pm
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It says they're using 26 lower-case characters, plus a space.

So, the number of possible strings is:

	27^StringLength["to be or not to be that is the question"]

	= 66555937033867822607895549241096482953017615834735226163

Egad...
-Adams

(Thank you, Mathematica 3.0)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 13 04:35:02 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, voynich@rand.org
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Subject: Re: Can't Get to EVMT Page
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On 12 May 97 at 15:14, Dennis wrote:

> 	Hi, Gabriel!  I haven't been able to get to the EVMT home page for
> more than a week.  Rene mentioned the same problem.  What gives?

I've heard a couple of complaints about this and I consulted our 
webmaster. Apparently the sun1.bham.ac.uk *should* work, but it does 
not seem to do for some people (I can get in with no problems).
However, there was an alternative name set to the sun1 server, so you 
may try it and see:

http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

If that works for you, please let me know and to the people who have 
links to my page, please update it.
Thanks
Regards,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 13 09:38:03 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Serious Monkey Business
Date: Tue, 13 May 97 13:59:38 +0100 ( + )
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      From Denis V.M.            
        <<<<
	The program is trying to type "to be or not be that is the
question."  The program has been running since Tue Jul 23 14:04:13 1996
time best was found Wed Feb 12 01:53:30 1997 (30% of correct letters).  At
certain levels the monkey is rewarded with Bananas.
                    >>>>>>>>>>>

I presume you meant to include 'to' after 'not',  if so I suggest they give it
the word lengths as I sent out earlier, without knowing what they were
up to -  it would certainly save a lot of bananas. A question, without the
final 'question' how many possibilities are there given the word length
string  2 2 2 3 2 2 4 2 3 assuming English and using the probabilities in
order for each length, i.e. what is the expected computer run length
to get a 50% chance of success.    Just about relevant to the VMs.

 Best wishes       Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 13 09:26:02 1997
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      From  Denis V.M.            13 May  1997    at 1420 BST

  I tried  web  - it didn't work with the full evmt tail

 I tried  www  - didn't work either

 I tried sun1  -  IT DID WORK  !!

 best wishes                Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 13 11:50:02 1997
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subscribe


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May 16 11:35:19 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:17:03 +0000
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Hi all,
Jacques kindly made available his vowel/consonant classification 
programme. It is called VFQ and the ZIP file which includes  the 
executable, documentation and source code is available to download 
from the EVMT page.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May 16 15:53:05 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:05:32 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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I've read that in some Byzantine manuscripts the title of a paragraph
often follows the paragraph. Could this explain the 'words' separated
from the main paragraph?

	If the spaces don't indicate word groups, then why would they be
identical to the lables(which should be nouns for the most part)?

		John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat May 17 00:02:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:51:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Syntax of Voynichese
In-Reply-To: <9705160400.AA12197@medici.trl.OZ.AU>
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> >	Fascinating!  I was just looking at your glotto02.zip software.
> 
> You worry me. Were you looking at it before I mentioned it in my
> last post? Or since I mentioned it? In the former case...

	I was looking at it *before* you mentioned it!  Oops, I've let it
out, I've begun to decipher the secret of all occult power in the VMs!
Shades of Foucault's Pendulum...  <smirk> 

> >What *I* was wondering was whether we could use it to help identify
> >Extended King Tut tags (substituents).  These are substitutes such as tut,
> >tush, tuk for the consonant t.   Do you think
> >we could do that with your glotto2 software or a modification of it?
> 
> No. I don't think so. But the measure of chaos which I was described 
> in an earlier post could do it, I think. Or Sukhotin's algorithm for
> segmenting continuous text (and I am certain of that).

	Could you point us to some references on Sukhotin's algorithm for
segmenting continuous text?  

> Alternately, consider this: you have been turning Latin in Voynichese
> using a King Tut cipher, and obtaining values of the character entropy
> strikingly in accordance with those of the VMS. Doing the reverse on
> Voynichese should turn its entropy back to something "sensible". For 
> instance, substituting 8 for 8AN, 8AM and 89; and 4 for 4O, and a few
> more like that.

	You mean something like:

		8AM --> t
		40  --> t

arbitrarily, even though in fact 8AM and 40 might refer to different
phonemes? Sounds like it's worth a try.  Might learn something. 

> But back to classifying words (supposing we know what the words are).
> I am like the proverbial donkey that came to the stable both terribly
> hungry and terribly thirsty, and kept hesitating between the bucket of
> oats and the bucket of water, never making up its mind, until it died
> of thirst and of hunger.  On the one hand I ought to produce Son of
> Monkey, on the other Son of Glotto (I am oversimplifying: I have had
> other temptations -- and there is Sukhotin's segmentation algorithm
> too, and that measure of chaos). I could do a quick-and-dirty add-on
> for glotto that would let it classify words by grammatical category
> or by semantic groups, but it would be limited to 180 words (as it
> is limited to 180 languages). Extending that figure may not require
> so much rewriting as for Son of Monkey. Sorry I was thinking aloud.

	If we don't know what real word divisions are, and Son of Glotto
couldn't detect the EKT tags, then Son of Monkey would seem the logical
choice.  However, might Son of Glotto help us understand what the "word
divsions" in the text really mean?

Dennis
 
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 18 10:32:02 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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Subject: Newish thoughts
Date: Sun, 18 May 97 15:31:28 +0100 ( + )
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   From Denis Mardle        18 May 1997

  I have just received my VMs copy-flo and 35mm film from
Yale  so at last I have an overall view.  I have not yet studied
the film but have noted how good the copy-flo is in most areas
but some are relatively poor with small areas out-of-focus or
rather faint.  I intend to compare with my 1969 BM blow-ups,
especially f1r and other copies I had.   I note that the multi-page
folios are difficult to put in order at first glance until one looks
more closely at edges, folds etc.  I see that some folio numbers
of these folios are on the verso side.
  For those wishing to know current prices the copy-flo is $45 and
the film $35 with no reduction for both.  P&P included although the
mail cost to the UK was high so within the U.S.A. the price may be
less.

  Earlier -Thu, 24 Apr 97 15:34:22 -  I said that the wavy surround on 
f68v3 was common on Italian Ms in the second half of the 15th
Century.   This was from an expert writing to Dr. Strong.  I now
find there are other examples mostly the edges of canopys on
f75r (top), f75v (mid.), f77v (top), f79r (top), f79v (top), f80v
(top & left), f82r (bottom), f82v (bottom right).

 f65r has a flower but no text except for a 3 word label, surely the
flower name as seen in more normal herbals.  The Currier version
is OPAK  8AJ  AEAJ    As I and John Stokes had noted the extra
strings of 2-4 words at the ends of pages and paragraphs almost
certainly give the names of flowers or other subjects.

 f58r has 3 paragraphs of text marked with pale 6,7 and 8 point stars
in that order.  f58v has one 6 point at the top of the page but 4
paragraphs in all.  Interestingly there is a 3 word subject at the end
of paragraph one  -   OFAR  ZCC9  ZCFCAE9

 I now confirm Mary D'Imperio's view that pot(potion) names for herb
mixtures when not on the pots are to the right which explains the frequent
excess of one label where each herb has a label.     f102v1(?) has its
first pot label the same as the first herb  -  OFCO89

 f96v clearly has the same full sized plant as the  one on its own at the
bottom of f99r.   I believe it to be Common Ivy.,  or if not quite right then
f8r has that priviledge for its leaf at least.

 Identifying Language B hand 2 is , I think, very easy.   Not only is the
'word' ending of 89 very common, it is nearly always preceded by C
 Two example counts   :-

                           f78r                   f75r

                  C       95                     113
                   -         4                       10
                  S         4                        3
                  X         3
                  Z         1                        1
                  Q         1
                 AE        1 page end        2  one is para end
                   9                                   1
                   2                                   1
                 OE                                  4  two are line ends
                 AR                                  2  one is line end
                   E                                   2  both are line ends
                   A                                   1  para end  

  So perhaps C89 represents one character or syllable the rest
being some sort of punctuation.

  More thoughts to come especially about f57v and the four ages of
man also depicted on another folio.

  Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 18 22:05:01 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:54:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Syntax of Voynichese
In-Reply-To: <9705190005.AA27955@medici.trl.OZ.AU>
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On Mon, 19 May 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> >	You mean something like:
> >
> >		8AM --> t
> >		40  --> t
> >
> >arbitrarily, even though in fact 8AM and 40 might refer to different
> >phonemes? 
> 
> Yes, precisely.

	This sounds good.  I'll get started on it.  I've got a wealth of
data to work with.  It just occured to me that there shouldn't be too many
EKT tags - about 200 would be the outside, I think. 

> I started on Son of Glotto last Saturday. I found a bug in TMT Pascal
> which I was hoping to use (it's a 32-bit implementation with arrays
> up to any size). So it was back to Borland Pascal and kludges to get
> around their you-cannot-have-arrays-larger-than-64K. Son of Glotto
> ought to be much easier than Son of Monkey. Cross fingers.

	This sounds good!  

On Fri, 16 May 1997, John Grove wrote:

>       If the spaces don't indicate word groups, then why would they be
> identical to the lables(which should be nouns for the most part)?

	Under the EKT hypothesis, labels are probably numerals or
abbreviations - which would still make them nouns.  If they are
abbreviations, they might be EKT tags themselves.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun May 18 20:11:02 1997
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Syntax of Voynichese
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Status: OR

Dennis:

>	I was looking at it *before* you mentioned it!  

Well... that's what I suspected.


>	Could you point us to some references on Sukhotin's algorithm for
>segmenting continuous text? 

It has never been translated into English, only into French, in a magazine
(now defunct) called T.A. Information (T.A. = traduction automatique).
>From memory, in their 3rd quarter issue of 1974. The whole issue was
about Sukhotin's "algorithmes de dechiffrage". One of them was vowel-
recognition, another the segmentation of continuous text. There were
two or three more, all extraordinary stuff. The French translation
is obscure. I managed to get the Russian original of some algorithms
and lo and behold! they are not better. Sukhotin writes in a turgid,
convoluted style. It is often difficult to figure out what he means.
But I did try the segmentation algorithm 20 years ago, and it seemed
to work fairly well. But I did not have enough computing power: only
access to a Univac 1108! Today's PCs are much more powerful.
 

>	You mean something like:
>
>		8AM --> t
>		40  --> t
>
>arbitrarily, even though in fact 8AM and 40 might refer to different
>phonemes? 

Yes, precisely.


>	If we don't know what real word divisions are, and Son of Glotto
>couldn't detect the EKT tags, then Son of Monkey would seem the logical
>choice.  However, might Son of Glotto help us understand what the "word
>divsions" in the text really mean?

I think I have already mentioned that on this list, but it is probably
buried in the 4 Meg of archives. No harm in repeating it.

I invented the granddaddy of the algorithms of Glotto 16 years ago.
I had a colleague at the Australian National University who was
an ethnobotanist, and who had collected about 1000 answers to
the question "how would you define a weed?". He asked me what could
be done with that data. "Off-hand, I don't know, let me have a look
and try". I don't know what got over me, I applied the granddad of
glottree to matrices of frequencies of word-cooccurrences calculated
in various ways from those answers. The results were astonishing.
One matrix gave a classification where "garden", "place" and 
"backyard" were in the same group, "thing" and "something" in another
and (wait for it!) "unwanted" and "obnoxious" in yet another. 
Another matrix had all the different verb forms  together, e.g.
all the -ing forms in one groups, all the -ed forms in another, etc.

The thing was, at the time, I did not know why it worked. It took me
a while to figure out the reason. I did not know either that the
measure of distance used by the granddaddy of glotto was wrong.
Nevertheless most language classifications turned out right (such
being the power of statistical tests). The measure used by today's
glotto is linguistically correct, even though its computation might
leave somewhat to be desired (I am no mathematician). Theoretically,
using it for word classification as I had done on the "weeds database"
ought to yield much better results.

I started on Son of Glotto last Saturday. I found a bug in TMT Pascal
which I was hoping to use (it's a 32-bit implementation with arrays
up to any size). So it was back to Borland Pascal and kludges to get
around their you-cannot-have-arrays-larger-than-64K. Son of Glotto
ought to be much easier than Son of Monkey. Cross fingers.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 19 16:20:02 1997
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From: "John Hyaduck" <hyaduck@tir.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Cc: <hyaduck@tir.com>
Subject: Fw: my focus -
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:16:02 -0400
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----------
From: John Hyaduck <hyaduck@tir.com>
To: jim@acm.org
Cc: voinich@rand.com.hyaduck@tir.com
Subject: my focus -
Date: Monday, May 19, 1997 4:06 PM

     Just because I can't contain my enthusiasm until I have clearer
information to post, I want to let you know where my investigations are
heading.  When I first looked at the few gifs posted here and there I saw
letters in patterns that I have seen before - from modern chaldean
handwriting from the Christian communities in Northern Iraq, Syria and
southern Turkey.  There are several major scripts varying from the early
Syriac and a quick crib sheet gave me at least an 80-90% correspondence in
for the available characters from the FrogGuy letters.
      Syriac calligraphic styles were ubiquitous throughout the eastern
Mediterranean for hundreds of years and served as the basis for Indian
alphabets from grantha to nagari to tamil, etc.  Some of those eastern
offshoots have remarkable voynichese flairs (Tamil, gujarati - no guideline
above like Sanskrit) but my deepest impression was from the Syriac direct
descendants, especially in the quickly written styles. (Compare modern
Hebrew handwriting forms - not unfamiliar either). 
     There are large chaldean, assyrian, or neo-aramaic communities in the
United States and Canada in Detroit, Chicago, California, and Toronto.  I
am pursuing the review of some of the voynich images by scholars familiar
with medieval Syriac manuscripts.  Poetic, scientific/philosophical works
were written in the timeframes suggested for the VMS and would have been
available in centers of Christian, Islamic, or Hebrew learning. 
Syriac/Assyrian traders and religious traveled to China, India, north
Africa, Spain, etc. and herbal "science" would be available to them.
     It is too early for a well formed hypothesis for me but a copy of an
earlier Syriac/nestorian document, losing the vocalizations if they were
even initially there, 
would be my brightest guess.  If we think we are dealing with an
correction-free copy , then it is also possible that the illustrations were
"Europeanized" from more eastern forms.  It is also just as possible that
the Syriac characters I'm seeing encode a nasty cipher in Hebrew, Arabic,
Latin or whatever.  I thought that Ladin or medieval Spanish might have
been written here in a degenerate/shorthand Hebrew or Syriac as well, but
the structure would have stuck out prominently I would think.  There are
not many scholars who could sight read Syriac structure (not me) but the
word forms, initials, vowel patterns are not that far from Hebrew/Arabic. 
Take a look at the final Alap's in so many modern Assyrian words.  The s
and 2 forms in Frogguy stand where Alaps and 'Ayin-like vowel/gutturals are
in assyrian.  And the Frogguy  a, c, o, u, x, 8, 9, iu, iiu, g, t, ', q, k,
p  have embarrassingly similar correspondences.

Oh yeah, BTW  the picnic table (n) would represent SH - the only consonant
in i:Su: (EESHOO) or Jesus.  ALLAHA should show up too but I have not found
the L to my satisfaction.  Anyone who wants to tiptoe through this stream
of inquiry should look at
http://members.aol.com/assyrianme/aramaic/aramaic.html for a start and try
not to be confused by the numerous names for the languages, peoples and
faiths referred to by modern Syriac culture and the number of variations of
the alphabets.   

Nineveh on-line at http://www.nineveh.com/ has fonts and information on the
sacred tree and fertility that may prove useful (fruitful?).  

More information is at http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~jatou/.

I hope to put a cleaner picture together soon and submit a more scientific
proposal for discussion.  Thank You.  John M. Hyaduck  hyaduck@tir.com


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Subject: Re: Syntax of Voynichese
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From: Rene Zandbergen on 05-27-97 11:42

Dear all,

 there are quite a few examples of syntax rules in
 D'Imperio,  Tiltman and the mainling list archive.
 Some of these are quite trivial, or are related
 to word fragments rather than words.
 I've started collecting them, because, put together
 they provide a good deal of insight into the
 structure of Voynichese. I had forgotten about this
 in the mean time but I'll treat this as a reminder :-)

 I'm very interested in any future results of glotto
 and his family. I think (but I may be wrong) that this
 depends rather less on the choice of the transcription
 alphabet than for example the vowel recognition scheme.
 If it also can work without knowing where the spaces
 are (which I somehow doubt) we could be in even
 bigger luck.

 Trying to break up the Voynich text into basic buiding
 blocks would seem to be an approach useful for many
 theories. There is one nice example in one of
 R.Firth's notes. Unfortunately it is not unambiguous
 so an automated translation of the VMs into these
 tokens (I think there were about 45 of them) is not
 possible.

 As for the thoughts concerning inflected languages,
 and the location of nouns, I am personally also interested
 in identifying the verbs (don't ask me why).
 Provided that there are indeed nouns and/or verbs,
 then chances are good that the verbs are
 inflected, given the list of top-ranking base language
 candidates. Furthermore, verbs are not the most frequent
 words, but they should appear with a somewhat regular
 spacing. It is unlikely that any of 8AM, AM, SC89, 4OFAM,
 is a verb (provided these are words) because they
 are too frequent.

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon May 26 20:23:03 1997
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Subject: Is my mail-server playing up again...
Status: OR

or are you all strangely quiet?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 27 14:29:06 1997
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Subject: Re: Is my mail-server playing up again...
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au (Jacques Guy)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:26:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <9705270018.AA22250@medici.trl.OZ.AU> from "Jacques Guy" at May 27, 97 10:18:23 am
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> or are you all strangely quiet?

Well, for us US members, we had this long weekend for Memorial Day (you know,
war stuff).
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 27 01:29:05 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: so... everybody has been quiet, and
Status: OR

... and I must say a bit of a holiday away from
Voynichiana is nice -- some days it took me a long
while to get through all the messages.

I have been breeding Son of Glotto. To sum it: 
Son of Glotto should be able:

1. To classify documents by meaning.
2. To classify words by meaning, or by
   grammatical category, depending on certain
   parameters.

It would be amusing to try and classify the
paragraphs (documents) of the VMS by meaning.
After having done a test on known data, of 
course. (I will probably use a few books of
Old Testament. Before Yale claims copyright, 
that is).

As for classifying words... I am pessimistic
since I do not know what is a word in the VMS.
If the language is highly inflected (viz Latin),
the results are likely to be terrible. One would
have to separate the roots from the endings first.
With external sandhi, it will be even worse.
Come to think of it, paragraph classification will
be dodgy too in those cases.


The stumbling block for me was that most so-called 
advanced computer languages for PCs limit the poor 
programmer to arrays of 64K and have no proper
implementation of dynamic arrays either.  And Father 
Glotto had hidden bugs. Fewer than Monkey (the animal 
is covered in lice!), but still, one is too many for 
comfort. 

So I will be silent for a while again. Busy 
de-lousing Son of Glotto with a home-made fine-toothed
comb.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 27 16:35:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:32:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Syntax of Voynichese
In-Reply-To: <C12564A4.003203FB.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Tue, 27 May 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

>  there are quite a few examples of syntax rules in
>  D'Imperio,  Tiltman and the mainling list archive.

	Here are some from the archive:

Fig. 27 -- Tiltman's Division of Common Words into "Roots" and "Suffixes"
(Tiltman 1951)

(Currier's Transliteration)

Roots                  Suffixes

OF-, OV-              -AD, -AN, -AM, -A3
OP-, OB-              -AR, -AT, -AU, -A0
4OF-, 4OV-            -AE, -AG, -AH, -A1
4OP-, 4OB-            -OR
S-                    -OE
Z-                    -C9, -CC9, -CCC9
8-                    -C89, -CC89, -CCC89
2-

(Bennett's Transliteration)

Roots                 Suffixes

OK-, OF-              -AU, -AN, -AM, -AIM
OH-, OP-              -AQ, -AIQ, -AIIQ, -AIIIQ
DOK-, DOF-            -AL, -AIL, AIIL, -AIIIL
CT-                   -OQ
ET-                   -CG, -CCG, -CCCG
S-                    -C89, -CC89, -CCC89
Z-

	These have been taken as a noun declension.  However, it's also
been noted that some of the endings (can't think of which) can also appear
alone.  No one can think of a language that does that.  Some of the Latin
demonstratives come close, I think. 

	However, I think that these might be EKT tags.  OF- and OV- might
both be e, and -AD and -AN might both be t.  Thus OFAD, OFAN, OVAD, and
OVAN might all mean et.  Something like this could explain how a suffix
could also appear as a separate word.  -C89 could be a, which in Latin can
be both a suffix and a preposition.  (These are all just examples and not
particularly good ones.)  

	Also, these pieces might be the base units, the "sub-atomic
particles", that make up EKT tags.  

	Of course, all this is really morphology rather than syntax.
There's really been a lot of discussion of the morphology of Voynichese
"words".  By syntax I mean the next larger scale of "word" relations -
which words might be nouns, verbs, or other classes; in what order do
these classes occur?  I've seen very litle on this.  

	As you may know, there are six possible orders of subject, verb,
and object.  All six possibilities are found in natural languages.  The
specific order - SVO like English and French, SOV like German and Dutch,
etc., seems to correlate with other properties of the language.  

>  I've started collecting them, because, put together
>  they provide a good deal of insight into the
>  structure of Voynichese. I had forgotten about this
>  in the mean time but I'll treat this as a reminder :-)

	I'd be interested in anything you have!  My next major project is
Implosion One - tentatively identifying the building blocks and trying to
reduce them to something with entropies and single-character distributions
that more resemble a natural language. 

>  Trying to break up the Voynich text into basic buiding
>  blocks would seem to be an approach useful for many
>  theories. There is one nice example in one of
>  R.Firth's notes. Unfortunately it is not unambiguous
>  so an automated translation of the VMs into these
>  tokens (I think there were about 45 of them) is not
>  possible.

	Robert's scheme is one thing I'll take into account.
 
>  As for the thoughts concerning inflected languages,
>  and the location of nouns, I am personally also interested
>  in identifying the verbs (don't ask me why).

	The SVO correlation would be a good reason!  That would certainly
be one more clue to what the underlying language is. 

>  Provided that there are indeed nouns and/or verbs,
>  then chances are good that the verbs are
>  inflected, given the list of top-ranking base language
>  candidates. Furthermore, verbs are not the most frequent
>  words, but they should appear with a somewhat regular
>  spacing. It is unlikely that any of 8AM, AM, SC89, 4OFAM,
>  is a verb (provided these are words) because they
>  are too frequent.

	Yes, they are most likely either EKT tags or base units.

Cheers,
Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 27 20:44:01 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:38:04 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Askam
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Status: OR

Hello Gabriel,

Sorry I'm late in responding.  Time flies so fast, I have been working too
hard and finding little time to accomplish those things I need to do.  


> A question: How did the name of Askam come to Strong? Was it because 
> he read it in one of the pages or did he have this suspicion in mind 
> before? I am very curious about this.
> Any clues are appreciated.

Strong definitely found the name "Doktr Askam" through cipher before he
ever investigated any Ascham as an author.  Before the cipher find he was
convinced that the work was by Dee, and even after finding Ascham's name he
was still suspicious of Dee because of the evidence available to him.

The graphed language charts that cover books by several authors are a
standard prelude to cipher investigation, being an attempt to identify the
language before trying to find 'cribs' into the work.  A page of angelic
language from Casaubon's "A True and Faithful Relationship..etc." was the
book from which the matching page was drawn, and even more specifically,
the book entitled "Actions with Spirits", a photocopy of which I have
already sent you (of the page, that is).  Strong's request for a copy of
Dee's 'Claves Angelicae' was in January 1945, if I am not mistaken, which
gives a certain period dating to the undated language charts.  (Late 1944.)

The finding of an exact frequency match between two sections of different
cipher books was an astounding find to Strong, and was what drove his
request for the Angelic Keys, as well as his long suspicion about Dee
involvement, even after his publications involving Anthony Ascham.  If you
read the letters once again, you will find that years after his work on the
Voynich, Strong still held Dee to be the most likely conspirator, if not
the author.  (He was aware of the many books published during the 16th
century under the subscribed authorship of others.)

The first actual cipher worksheets on folio 93 recto appear on the first of
March, 1945, and the work on 93 recto was finished between 14 March and 17
March, 1945.  It was between 1 March and 17 March that Askam's name was
revealed to Strong.  All work after 17 March 1945 was on folio 78 recto.

Strong requested a copy of Ascham's "A Littell Herbal" around the first of
April, 1945, long after his request for the Angelic Keys of John Dee. 
Knowing something of his primary cipher interest beyond the Voynich, I can
also say that a minor author such as Anthony Ascham would have been an
unknown in his research, as well as 30 to 40 years before the beginning of
his interest.

May I ask why you are curious about this?  I knew you were attempting to
obtain a copy of the herbal, but I never heard that you had succeeded.

Something that may be of interest to you concerning the 'hand' that folio
78 recto is written in - (I assume that this hand identifies a different
author, although not entirely a different system.)  A friend's
correspondence has recently enlightened me to the works of Hildegaard of
Bingen, and guess what?  The similarities between Strong's text of folio 78
recto and the medicinal tracts of Hildegaard are so striking it makes my
teeth chatter.  We know his herbal was drawn from Banke's Herbal of 1525,
but where did he get his vast knowledge of female disorders and their
medicinal cures?  For that matter, did Anthony have a female co-author? 
(An interesting thought to entertain.)

This week is once again a somewhat disoriented week.  Post holiday with 12
hour days.  I have assembled more to send, I just need to find the time to
do it in.  My apologies, and I hope I have answered your question
satisfactorily.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed May 28 05:35:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:30:27 +0200
Subject: Re: Syntax of Voynichese
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From: Rene Zandbergen on 05-28-97 11:30

Dear all,

 Dennis wrote:

>  Tiltman's Division of Common Words into "Roots" and
> "Suffixes" (Tiltman 1951)

> (Currier's Transliteration)

> Roots                  Suffixes
>
> OF-, OV-              -AD, -AN, -AM, -A3
> OP-, OB-              -AR, -AT, -AU, -A0
> 4OF-, 4OV-            -AE, -AG, -AH, -A1
> 4OP-, 4OB-            -OR
> S-                    -OE
> Z-                    -C9, -CC9, -CCC9
> 8-                    -C89, -CC89, -CCC89
> 2-

> These have been taken as a noun declension.  However, it's
> also been noted that some of the endings (can't think of
> which) can also appear alone.

Most notably AM, AR, AE, OR

> No one can think of a
> language that does that.  Some of the Latin demonstratives
> come close, I think.

Hungarian has been pointed out to do that. And then there's
Dutch. The most frequent words are 'de' (the) and  'en' (and), which are
also frequent word endings, in particular 'en' which
is used in verbs and for plurals of nouns.
The problem with Dutch is that in ME times 'ende' was used
instead of 'en' but an abbreviation was used for the 'de'
in writing. Come to think of it, the swirl up which is
part of the M could be just that....

Coming back to the above list, I have occasionally wondered
which percentage of the VMs words follows the pattern
of the above table... and how much this depends on which
section it is.

To Jacques':

> Careful not to jump to conclusions. Many languages have
> very few verbs, which they use with nouns to translate
> our verbs, e.g. "to sing" -> to do song. Modern Basque
> is much like that, it has only a handful of fully
> conjugatable verbs. Typically, a language that had
> fully inflected verbs may end up with nouns for verbs
> and auxiliary verbs to express tense, mode, etc.

I will give you that, but I was mainly thinking of
the somewhat higher-probability base languages.
And I did say 'unlikely' rather than 'impossible' :-)
Has anybody ever seen statistics of percentages
of verbs, nouns, adverbs etc in various languages?
Further I'll admit that in the not too unlikely case
that the Voynich words ar not words, my proposal
has no meaning whatsoever.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue May 27 19:53:04 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Syntax of Voynichese
Status: OR

Rene Zandbergen:
> Furthermore, verbs are not the most frequent
> words, but they should appear with a somewhat regular
> spacing. It is unlikely that any of 8AM, AM, SC89, 4OFAM,
> is a verb (provided these are words) because they
> are too frequent.


Careful not to jump to conclusions. Many languages have
very few verbs, which they use with nouns to translate
our verbs, e.g. "to sing" -> to do song. Modern Basque
is much like that, it has only a handful of fully
conjugatable verbs. Typically, a language that had
fully inflected verbs may end up with nouns for verbs
and auxiliary verbs to express tense, mode, etc.

Why, English is a bit like that, it needs just one little
push to lose most of its verbs proper. Consider:

I think, I thought, I have thought, I do not think...

No imagine that this becomes the standard:

I do think, I did think, I done think, I do not think...

One more flick, and we have: my think is...

("drink" and "eat" already function as both verb and
noun, so it is not far-fetched at all)


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu May 29 04:53:01 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C12564A6.002DC760.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:48:39 +0200
Subject: Re: Newish thoughts
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From: Rene Zandbergen on 05-29-97 10:48

Denis wrote:

> I have just received my VMs copy-flo and 35mm film from
> Yale  ..(snip).. I note that the multi-page folios are
> difficult to put in order at first glance until one looks
> more closely at edges, folds etc.

In my case the pages are always in the 'correct' order,
so for example for a three-way foldout, the order is
r1, r2, r3, v3, v2, v1. For the big one with the horizontal
fold this does not hold, but the composition should
be clear there. Do have a close look at Jim Reeds' 'foliation'
web page as it has all the details. The numbering used by
D'Imperio is fully consistent and will help you with the
backside pages of the 9-rosetta image. Front and back
are subdivided over two folios,
85 and 86, and they are usually written as f85/86r1 and
f85/86v4 etc. I have adopted the rule to write f85 for
r1,r2,v2 and v1, and f86 for the other 2x4.

> I see that some folio numbers of these folios are on the
> verso side.

With one exception, the folio number is always in the upper
right corner when the folio is folded in. This sometimes
puts it on the verso side. The one exception
is probably a fold that changed direction in the course of
time.

> f96v clearly has the same full sized plant as the  one on
> its own at the bottom of f99r.

Fully agreed. There is also a very similar one in the early
Herbal-A, somehere near f17 I think.

> I believe it to be Common Ivy.,  or if not quite right then
> f8r has that priviledge for its leaf at least.

I originally thought Arum, but an expert pointed out that
Briony or Scammony are probably closer (they do have such a
big root, or at least Briony does). Note that these are
all plants with some medicinal properties and might
therefore 'belong' in the VMs. f8r could be Hedera Helix
(in my non-expert opinion). Some kind of Ivy one
sees covering the ground in the woods quite a lot here.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May 30 03:17:07 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C12564A7.0026D910.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:13:11 +0200
Subject: Panofsky and Toresella again
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From: Rene Zandbergen on 05-30-97 09:13

Dear all,

am I correct in understanding that Panofsky's opinion about
the German origin of the VMs was mainly based on the
style of the drawings while Toresella's opinion was mainly
based on the style of the script? If so, then there is really
no conflict between these expert opinions, and it is (for
example) possible that the drawings were done by a German
while the text was done by an Italian. It is especially
plaeasing that both experts date the Ms at the same time.

It is furthermore possible to speculate that the German
'artist' was later asked to join in for the writing, hence the
different handwriting style, but this may not be too relevant.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May 30 04:29:02 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:23:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: Panofsky and Toresella again
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On 30 May 97 at 9:13, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> If so, then there is really
> no conflict between these expert opinions, and it is (for
> example) possible that the drawings were done by a German
> while the text was done by an Italian.

It could be but this does not take us anywhere.
Even there is some evidence that the drawings where done first, a 
lot of the astrological and cosmological stuff seems (at least to 
me) to be too much related to have been done separatedly (for 
example the labels within the circles and the circular text).
It could have been done this other way; *for each folio* s/he did the 
drawings first and then the text. That way there is no need to 
involve 2 people and therefore 2 different task.

Or perhaps the author had multiple-personality disorder? :-)

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May 30 07:38:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:32:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
cc: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Panofsky and Toresella again
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On Fri, 30 May 1997, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> drawings first and then the text. That way there is no need to 
> involve 2 people and therefore 2 different task.

	However, we have the A and B languages.
 
> Or perhaps the author had multiple-personality disorder? :-)

	I can't pass that one up, since it's one of my silly theories.
I'm reading Toresella's article on "alchemical herbals".  Since what I'm
getting is somewhat at variance with what I've heard so far on the list,
I'll report at length later.  Toresella says (more or less):

	"Personally I believe that whoever drew and wrote this herbal [the
VMs] was profoundly impressed by the exhibition of some charlatan at the
market place and thought that he had uncovered the secret of the world; a
secret to entrust to a language and a cryptic script such as is often
found in certain forms of insanity (47)."

	His note 47 says:

	"The phenomenon of invented languages is very widespread and
represents a fundamental aspect of some mental pathologies.  For an
approach to the problem see S. ARIETE, Creativita`. La Sintesi magica,
Roma 1974.  A. BAUSANI, Le Lingue inventate. Linguaggi artificiali -
linguaggi segreti- linguaggi universali, Roma, 1974.  And the recent B.
BUONARROTI & P. ALBANI, Aga Mage'ra Difura. Dizionario delle lingue
immaginarie, Bologna 1994.

	In the Library of Congress catalog I find:

13. 75-36374: Arieti, Silvano.  Creativity : the magic synthesis / New
York : Basic Books, c1976.  xv, 448 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.  LC CALL NUMBER: 
BF408 .A64

	They had the Italian version of Buonarroti & Albani.  They didn't
have Bausani's book.  

	So maybe our silly theory isn't so silly after all!!

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri May 30 07:44:14 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org,
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Subject: Re: Panofsky and Toresella again
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On 30 May 97 at 7:32, Dennis wrote:

> On Fri, 30 May 1997, Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> > drawings first and then the text. That way there is no need to 
> > involve 2 people and therefore 2 different task.
> 
> 	However, we have the A and B languages.

Let me insist once more.
I am not sure how different the A and B languages are. If you see in 
the "distance between languages" graphs, A and B are closer than two 
different book of the Vulgate bible.
This could certainly be a difference on the contents of the text 
itself. Now that the hands correspond to each language is more 
interesting, however, Mr. A who is an expert in plants wrote the 
herbla, Ms. B is a "doctor", so she wrote the biological part.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun  1 01:14:06 1997
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	(message from Dennis on Fri, 30 May 1997 07:32:45 -0400 (EDT))
Subject: Re: Panofsky and Toresella again
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> I'm reading Toresella's article on "alchemical herbals".

What is the full cite for this? I can't find it in the messages I've saved.

Thanks,

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun  1 08:11:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:08:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Panofsky and Toresella again
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On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Karl Kluge wrote:

> What is the full cite for this? I can't find it in the messages I've saved.

	It's in Jim Reeds' VMs biblio:

 82. Toresella, Sergio. ``Gli erbari degli alchimisti.'' In Arte
farmaceuticae e piante medicinali -- erbari, vasi, strumenti e testi dalle
raccolte liguri, Liana Saginati, ed. Pisa: Pacini Editore, 1996, pp.31-70.
[Profusely illustrated. Fits the VMS into an ``alchemical herbal''
tradition.]

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun  3 15:08:15 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek
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    Bennett said: "There are four distinct species of tall, wiggly P- 
or II-shaped characters [the gallows letters] which are similar to 
characters found in early Bulgarian Glagolitsa (see, Diringer, 1953; 
p. 476).  The one labeled P [Currier B, Frogguy qj] in Fig. 4-22 often 
starts paragraphs.  The one labeled H [Currier P, Frogguy qp] is 
similar to characters used for that letter in the Glagolithic 
alphabet."  (p. 193.)  

    John Grove and I have been discussing Istrin's book on Slavic
alphabets.  Istrin's book covers the development of both the Cyrillic and
Glagolithic alphabets very thoroughly.  However, none of the Glagolithic
letters really resemble the gallows letters closely. 

	It is not clear which Glagolithic letter Bennett was talking
about.  I don't see a Glagolithic letter with an 'h' value.  The 'h' value
is not too common in the Slavic languages.  Ukrainain has it, and
indicates it with the letter like Greek gamma. 
    
    One table in Istrin gives Byzantine Greek cursive letters that are
related to Glagolithic letters.  One form of Byzantine Greek cursive eta
looks very much like Frogguy qp.  However, since none of the other
Byzantine Greek cursives resemble gallows letters, we conclude that this
is probably just fortuitous. 
    
Dennis
             
--------------------------------------------------------------
    V. A. Istrin; *Tysiacha sto let slavianskoy azbuki. (1100 years 
of Slavic Alphabets.)*  Izdatyel'stvo Akadyemiy Nauk SSSR, Moskva (Moscow)
1963.  
    

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun  5 17:47:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Interesting Outsider Art
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http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/hampton.html

    The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations Millenium General 
Assembly 

>From the Kook Museum (also interesting):

    "James Hampton was not your ordinary janitor, for it is not your 
ordinary janitor who is contracted by the almighty to build his throne 
room. Starting in 1950, and working up to his death in 1964, Hampton, 
using old furniture, cardboard tubes, lightbulbs, lamps, several 
square miles of gold and aluminum foil and countless other geegaws, 
assumbled an opulant shrine in a rented garage in a run-down 
neighborhood of Washington, D.C. The shrine contains in the area of 
100 separate objects and at the time of Hampton's death was 
incomplete. The piece gives the impression of a Greek Orthodox votary 
warehouse run by an impoverished bishop on acid. Throughout the myriad 
foil-encrusted oddments can be seen several framed documents inscribed 
in some unknown angelic tongue. Upon his death, Hampton's heirs wanted 
nothing to do with his life's work and it was bought up by the 
National Collection of Fine Arts."

    However, especially note:

    "God was frequent visitor at the garage, where Hampton worked for 
up to six hours a night after finishing his janitorial duties. In 
addition to supervising work on the Throne, God taught Hampton an 
intriguing script. A small notebook was found there, which is filled 
with the script; at the bottom of each page, is written, in English, 
"Revelation," and the author is given as "Saint James." The same 
script was also found on the objects surrounding the Throne, usually 
preceded by an English word or phrase, possibly a translation."



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun  6 05:17:06 1997
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From: Neal P <nealp@essex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:14:16 +0100
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Didn't Stephen Jay Gould write about this work in 'Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle'?
He uses it to illustrate the linear view of time characteristic of Judaism and
Christianity - I don't think he says anything about invented scripts.

Philip Neal
Department of Computer Science
University of Essex

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun  6 07:38:17 1997
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At 10:14 AM 6/6/97 +0100, Neal P wrote:

>Didn't Stephen Jay Gould write about this work in 'Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle'?
>He uses it to illustrate the linear view of time characteristic of Judaism and
>Christianity - I don't think he says anything about invented scripts.

        I haven't seen Gould's book.  I first read about it in Gnosis
magazine.  They noted that the script is still undeciphered - although I
don't know if anyone competent has tried to decipher it.  Are any of our
crippies interested in trying?

        James Hampton sounds like a latter-day John Dee.  :-)

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun  6 16:41:05 1997
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I'm reading Toresella's paper on alchemical herbals.  He thinks 
that the VMs was written by someone mentally ill and refers to works 
that discuss distortions of language in mental illness.  
    
    I've looked briefly at one of these works, *Creativity* by Silvano 
Arieti.  It's a fascinating book about the psychology of creativity, 
and a brief reading won't do it justice.  However, since he talks about
the 
distorted language of schizophrenics, I couldn't resist doing this 
brief study.  
    
    At the Kooks Museum, I found a sample of schizophrenic language.  
In the Schizophrenic Wing, there is a transcript of flyers by Francis 
E. Dec, containing two Rants:
    
Kooks Museum 
http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/index.html 
Schizophrenic Wing 
Francis E. Dec, Esquire
Transcripts of flyers

    I ran MONKEY on the two Rants and compared the results with 
examples of normal English text: 

                                                  (h2-h1)
File          Ch   File                              /h1
Name          Set  Size     h0      h1      h2      *100

schizo.txt    27   12967   4.755   4.182   3.428   18.0
genesis.kjv   27   32000   4.755   3.969   3.020   23.9
joshua.kjv    27   32000   4.755   4.012   3.029   24.5
acts.kjv      27   32000   4.755   4.041   3.137   22.4
fbacon1.elz   27   32000   4.755   4.048   3.220   20.4
fbacon2.elz   27   32000   4.755   4.042   3.214   20.5
fbacon3.elz   27   32000   4.755   4.066   3.229   20.6
litany1.txt   26    9492   4.700   4.071   3.103   23.8
iso14cat.txt  27    6696   4.755   4.076   3.137   23.0
crane.txt     27   32000   4.755   4.073   3.247   20.3
cajun.txt     27   27363   4.755   4.124   3.297   20.1
chicken.txt   27   18461   4.755   4.131   3.193   22.7

schizo.txt            = Rants by a schizophrenic
genesis, joshua, acts = Bible, King James Version
fbacon1/2/3           = Essays by Sir Francis Bacon
litany1.txt           = Roman Catholic litany (modern English)
iso14cat.txt          = catalog of ISO 14000 standards
crane.txt             = short story by Stephen Crane
cajun, chicken        = food recipes

    As you can see, the second-order entropy of the schizophrenic 
rants is definitely *higher* than any of the ordinary texts.  

    To understand what the text is like -- well, you'd best go look 
for yourself! 

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun  9 21:26:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 21:22:29 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Dennis wrote:

>     Bennett said: "There are four distinct species of tall, wiggly P-
> or II-shaped characters [the gallows letters] which are similar to
> characters found in early Bulgarian Glagolitsa (see, Diringer, 1953;
> p. 476)...

>     John Grove and I have been discussing Istrin's book on Slavic
> alphabets.  Istrin's book covers the development of both the Cyrillic
> and Glagolithic alphabets very thoroughly.  However, none of the
> Glagolithic letters really resemble the gallows letters closely.

    I'm not sure how Bennett made the connection to Glagolithic, but
Istrin's book certainly could cause confusion. The one Byzantine example
that comes close...

>     One table in Istrin gives Byzantine Greek cursive letters that are
> related to Glagolithic letters.  One form of Byzantine Greek cursive
> eta looks very much like Frogguy qp.

... stands alone.  Whether it was eta or iota is or even an 'h' as Bennett
addressed is irrelevent since there aren't any other similarities with
other gallows. One point that Istrin's book does bring up though is the
convergence of partial characters to create a character that didn't exist
in Greek - ie the iota-types of Slavic (ya, yu, ye).  If the VMs gallows
were formed to represent two sounds combined - such as the 4 sound with the
P sound, then one could assume the 'l' sound is a soft (or perhaps hard)
form of the 4 sound. (ie. 4P could be Ya, where lP could be Ia). Since the
4 most often precedes an O, we could then jump to O being a vowel that
doesn't have a Gallows form and the Y sound is actually leaning toward a
consonant function.  -- A lot more speculation on my part, eh?  I like the
Gallows being considered primarly vowels!

    Back on track: Byzantine Cursive influence on Gallows creation is
doubtful, but certainly more viable than Glagolithic. (In my opinion).

            John.

From reeds Mon Jun  9 22:27:57 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:27:57 -0400
In-Reply-To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
        "Re: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek" (Jun  9, 21:22)
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	<339CAC53.9D944F87@fox.nstn.ca>
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I have always thought of the gallows letters as being a typical feature of
Visigothic writing, but I cannot put my hand on any examples right now.

But I can refer to one of the few photographic facsimilies in my copy (well,
really my wife's copy) of Cappelli's Dizionario (the 1967 reprint of what
appears to be the 1929 edition), namely "Tavola IV", which shows a letter
"1172, Giugno 13 -- Savino abbate del monastero di S. Savino in Piacenza
investe il mugnaio Gerardo Albarola per se e suoi eredi maschi in perpetuo,
di un mulio di ragione del detto moasstero -- Scritura carolina. --
Pergamena origen., conservata nell'Archivio di Stato di Parma, monastero
di S. Savino." with glorious gallows letters all over it.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 10 03:56:02 1997
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Jim  Reeds writes:

> But I can refer to one of the few photographic facsimilies in
> ...(snip)... Cappelli's Dizionario ..... which shows a letter > .... with
glorious gallows letters all over it.

Jim, I'd love to know what these gallows mean, in this example.
Given the source book I'd have to assume they represent
abbreviations... Are they ever 'intruding' into anything?
The date is a bit early and I wonder about the characterisation
of the writing as Carolingian, in the sense that the gallows are
probably not a standard component of that style.

It is, however, another point in favour of the 'Italian
connection' or rather an explanation of part of Toresella's
qualification of the script.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 10 08:59:03 1997
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To: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 13:55:38 +0100 ( + )
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           From  Denis Mardle         10 June 1997

Hi everyone

 I have been informed by a multi-linguist that Old Church
Slavonic is Glagolithic on early Icons which also have
many abbreviations such as kose ( or something like it )
for Constantinople.   Does anyone know a comprehensive
illustrated book on such Icons?  A web site may be known also.

 I note that Istrin's book is not on Jim Reeds Bibliography.

 My attention has been drawn to Stojko's 1978 book ( which is
in the bibliography ) and his method which I find very interesting.

 Does anyone believe I could get hold of one or both books in
the UK ?   I'll have a go through libraries but suspect that may
be difficult especially for the British Library at present.

Greetings         Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 10 09:41:02 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:32:44 -0400
In-Reply-To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
        "Re: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek" (Jun 10,  9:14)
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About the text I found in Capelli with gallows letters. 

Most of Capelli is a list of abbreviations, but the book starts with a short
overview of paleography in general.  That overview section has a series of
plates, showing whole document pages, in a variety of writing styles, together
with transcriptions.  So there is no guarantee that these gallows letters are
actually abbreviations.  I think they are just a embellished letters.  I'll
check tonight.  I might possibly be able to scan some of the plate.

Rene is right, gallows letters are not a usual feature of Carolingian
writing.  The sample in question looks Carolingian to me, otherwise, but
does have a lot of VMS-like gallows letters.  Deeds, charters, & similar
legal documents often, I think, received some form of caligraphic decoration.
I'm sure that's what's happening here.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 10 10:17:03 1997
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Jim writes:

> I might possibly be able to scan some of the plate.

One of the many works our library does not have is Capelli.
I would certainly like to see this if possible.

> Deeds, charters, & similar legal documents often, I think,
> received some form of caligraphic decoration. I'm sure
> that's what's happening here.

Now only if we knew whether our friend(s) A and/or B
were inspired by such a N.Italian document. And then related
to the question of the intruding gallows it may be interesting
to note that in some sections of the VMs the gallows are
actually written on top of the Currier-S. It could be that this
is the original form and that the intruding variant (which
sometimes even interrupts the horizontal bit of the Cur-S)
is a form the writer developped later. Of course, it could
equally be that these are all independent characters.....

To digress a bit:
it has appeared to me in many instances that similar
gradual changes of certain features can be observed
between the sections of the VMs. For example (wild
speculation alert) the herbal-A word SOE which becomes
SCOE in pharma-A and then SC89 in herbal-B (similar with
ZOE).
Such variations could come from different writing styles
of the source text being transcribed/encoded as for example
in Arabic (by no means the only possibility).


Cheers, Rene


From reeds Tue Jun 10 10:17:26 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9706101017.ZM6004@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:17:25 -0400
In-Reply-To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
        "Re: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek" (Jun 10, 13:55)
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To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: My VMS bibliography: a plea (Was Re: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek)
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Denis mentioned that Istrin's book on Slavic paleography is not in my
bibliography.

This gives me a chance to brag and beg: my list of Voynich MS literature is
the biggest, best, most extensive, most complete bibliography of the Voynich MS
that there is! It is so good, in large part, because many people have
submitted for inclusion items which I would never have been able to find on my
own.  One such major contributor is Brian Smith.

You can view this 8th wonder of the world, this triumphant chariot of
bibliographic Voynichalia, blah blah, at:

	http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/bib.html

So: to make it even better, if you know about any item of VMS literature
not listed, please send me an email, and I'll add the item, and add your
name to the list of contributors!

You can tell what sort of information I need about an item before I add it:
title, author, publication information (date, place, & agent of publication),
and so on, by looking at the other items in the bibliography.

Thanks!

Jim.

PS.  I am sure there are cases where I have been send additions which I
have not yet added.  The reason is simple: laziness, distraction, forgetfulness.
Nag me with emails! 

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 10 11:08:05 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
 
> > I might possibly be able to scan some of the plate.
> 
> One of the many works our library does not have is Capelli.
> I would certainly like to see this if possible.

	So would I.  

	I'd also like to hear more about the idea that the gallows letters are
Visigothic in origin.  In reading about the Cathars, and also the
mysterious independent medieval Bosnian church, I've seen that some of
the symbolism on their monuments is Visigothic in origin.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 11 22:22:44 1997
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:04:59 -0500
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Prague Alchemy Conference
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Prague: Alchemy & the Hermetic Tradition 
A conference in Prague, the Czech Republic.  
http://www.opencenter.org/prague/intro.html 

    In Prague, August 29 to September 2, 1997.  Conference Fee US$430.  
All Meals $150 - (not optional). Accommodations $140-260.  

    Lots of interesting things and familiar people on the program!

---------------------------------------------------------
Alchemy & the Pagan Imagination  Joscelyn Godwin

Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Rudolf II &
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Alchemy in the Age of Rudolf     Adam  McLean

Of Angels & Dragons: The
Visionary Tradition in Alchemy   Cherry Gilchrist

Rudolfine Prague: Sunset of the
Renaissance                      Christopher Bamford

Royal Outsiders: Rudolf II &
Ludwig II                        Christopher McIntosh

Cartesian Mysteries              Zdenek Neubauer

When the Divine Comes Close: 
 Poetry of the Rosicrucians 
    & Sufis                      Robert Bly

The Caduceus of Hermes           Cherry Gilchrist 

The Inner Theatre of 
Khunrath's Alchemy               Adam McLean 

Prague's Hermetic Regent:
Archduke Ferdinand               Joscelyn Godwin

Cosmos & Sophia                  Robert Powell 

The Spiritual Task of Central
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The History & Survival of 
    Esoteric Traditions in 
    Bohemia & Moravia in
    the late 19th & 
    early 20th Centuries         Blahoslav Janes, PhD 

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    in Rudolfine Prague          Rafal T. Prinke 
    
------------------------------------------------------------

    Adam McLean is a list member and runs the alchemy website
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    There are also interesting after-conference programs:

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011 420 2 432 816 (tel) 
011 420 2 961 41122 (vm) 
michal@terminal.cz (e-mail) 



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 12 10:01:38 1997
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Rene and I have translated Toresella's remarks on the VMs in his 
paper on alchemical herbals: 

    Toresella, Sergio. ``Gli erbari degli alchimisti. [Alchemical 
herbals.]'' In Arte farmaceutica e piante medicinali -- erbari, vasi, 
strumenti e testi dalle raccolte liguri [Pharmaceutical art and 
medicinal plants -- herbals, jars, instruments and texts of the 
Ligurian collections], Liana Saginati, ed. Pisa: Pacini Editore, 1996, 
pp.31-70. [Profusely illustrated. Fits the VMS into an ``alchemical 
herbal'' tradition.] 

-------------------------------------------------------------

    "Among the alchemical herbals we must include the one contained in 
the Voynich codex [45].  
    
    "It is the strangest, most mysterious, and enigmatic herbal known, 
because it is written in an enciphered language that has resisted the 
attacks of the most powerful American electronic computers [46].  It 
is almost eighty years that the best cryptographers, paleographers, 
and specialists in the most obscure languages have tirelessly tried to 
penetrate the mystery of this herbal, but in vain. 
    
    "Rudolph II of Habsburg, king of Bohemia, who constructed the  
'alchemists' quarter' in Prague, paid for this codex attributed to 
Francis [sic] Bacon (1214-1292), the fantastic sum of 600 gold ducats: 
remember, in comparison, that the Juliana Anicia herbal [the Vienna 
Codex of Dioscorides] was bought for only 100 ducats.  
    
    "Some have seen on these parchments, on which dozens of plants 
similar to those of the alchemists' herbals are drawn, but which do 
not belong to that iconographic tradition (fig. 25, 26), some 
fantastic discoveries:  the sunflower and the pepper represented 
centuries [sic] prior to the discovery of America;  drawings of parts 
of the cell seen through the microscope; the Andromeda nebula [sic] in 
the astrological part of the codex, and others still.  Even so the 
mystery of these plants remains unfathomable. 
    
    "Personally I think that the person who drew and wrote this herbal 
was profoundly impressed by the exhibition of some charlatan at the 
market place and thought that he had discovered the secret of the 
world; a secret to entrust to a language and a cryptic script such as 
is often found in certain forms of insanity [47].  
        
    "One really has to wonder about the strong fascination contained 
in this message from the past where Master Ghino [who commissioned an 
alchemical herbal that Toresella discusses] would have us believe that 
someone was held prisoner of a spell by the herb 'ghalias retiuola': 

    'Whoever has anointed his hands with the lotion of this herb, then 
touched whomever he wanted, would obtain from that person any favour 
that he might like. 

    'And in that way he would obtain much friendship. 

    'And he would cause peace and concord between enemies. 

    'And he who would wash himself with it would drive away the thief 
from within himself.'" 

-------------------------------------

    "Fig. 25, 26:  Drawings from the Voynich herbal [f41v, f42r, 
f65v].  The codex is difficult to date but the greater part of its 
students think that it dates to the years 1460-1480.   These fantastic 
plants have no relation with those of the usual alchemical herbals; 
some botanists think they have recognized the pepper and even the 
sunflower; some believe they have discovered marvels even more 
surprising.  As you will have noticed, the writing is very clear and 
regular, but totally incomprehensible.  The best American experts have 
searched and are still searching to crack the code with an apparatus 
of truly impressive electronic computers.  Every now and then it 
happens that someone believes he has solved the mystery and reads in 
the book some further wonders; only later to find out that some 
objection renders the decryption improbable.  New Haven, Yale 
University, Beinecke Rare Book Library, MS 408, c. 41v-42r, c. 65v." 

---------------------------------------------------

    NOTES:

    "45.  Currently kept in the Beinecke Rare Book Library at Yale 
University (Conn.), USA, as MS 408. 
    
    "46.  The best exposition of the research on the Voynich codex is 
in M. E. D'Imperio, *The Voynich Manuscript.  An elegant enigma, 
Laguna Hills (Ca.) 1976.  A good summary, also easily available in 
Italy, may be found in D. Kahn, *The Codebreakers.*  There also exists 
an Internet site dedicated to this issue on which about forty students 
from all over the world communicate their discoveries.  

    "47.  The phenomenon of invented languages is very widespread and 
represents a fundamental aspect of some mental pathologies.  For an 
approach to the problem see: S. ARIETE, *Creativita`. La Sintesi 
magica*, Roma 1986.  A. BAUSANI, *Le Lingue inventate. Linguaggi 
artificiali -linguaggi segreti- linguaggi universali*, Roma, 1974.  
And the recent B. BUONARROTI & P. ALBANI, *Aga Mage'ra Difura. 
Dizionario delle lingue immaginarie*, Bologna 1994." 

    [The US Library of Congress catalog has: 

    Arieti, Silvano.  Creativity : the magic synthesis / New York : 
Basic Books, c1976.  xv, 448 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.  LC CALL NUMBER: BF408 
.A64 

    The LOC has the Italian version of Buonarroti & Albani but doesn't 
have Bausani. ]

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 11 22:52:44 1997
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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 12:46:49 EST
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Subject: A Web page on the ancient languages of Italy
Status: OR

Fascinating stuff there.

http://www.netaxs.com/~salvucci/VTLhome.html

Including... ETRUSCAN!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 13 13:02:06 1997
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Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:14:48 -0400
In-Reply-To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
        "Re: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek" (Jun 11, 17:53)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Cappelli Tavola IV; was Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek
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I have just been told that there is a JPEG scan of the plate from Cappelli's
abbreviation dictionary which contains gallows-like letters.  You can see
the picture:

	
	ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/TavolaIV.jpg

and read the transliteration:

	ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/TavolaIV.txt


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jun 14 03:17:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:13:18 -0700
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Clay Holden <cholden@netcom.com>
Subject: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans
Status: OR

Jacques Guy wrote:

>Jim Reeds wrote:
>>I have just been told that there is a JPEG scan of the plate from Cappelli's
>>abbreviation dictionary which contains gallows-like letters.  You can see
>>the picture:
>
>>
>>	ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/TavolaIV.jpg
>
>
>I had a look. It's a 1.8Meg jpeg. Yes, 1.8Meg!
>
>Not the easiest thing to download, and my Netscape Gold just refuses
>to display it.

Sorry, not trying to choke anyone. It's a 300 DPI grey-scale JPEG. The
original TIFF was nearly 6 MB. I've gone back to Photoshop and uploaded
"Lite" versions.

For those with smaller appetites, try these:

The top line of "gallows" characters, 289 K:

ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/gallows1.jpg

The bottom line of "gallows" characters, 289 K:

ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/gallows2.jpg

The whole plate, reduced to 50% of the size, 510 K:

ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/Table_IV.jpg

I have displayed these images from the ftp site on both Macs and PCs using
Netscape without any problem, and have succsssfully downloaded them as
well, so Netscape is not the issue.

These are still 300 DPI grey-scale images, certainly large enough to have a
good look at the "gallows" characters, but you're probably better off
avoiding the large image unless you have a fast connection and hard-drive
space to burn.

I'll leave these up for a few days, but not indefinitely. If someone else
wants to archive them, fine.

Sorry if anyone else had a problem with them.

Regards,

Clay


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 13 23:41:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Cappelli Tavola IV; was Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek
Status: OR

Jim Reeds wrote:
>I have just been told that there is a JPEG scan of the plate from Cappelli's
>abbreviation dictionary which contains gallows-like letters.  You can see
>the picture:

>	
>	ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/TavolaIV.jpg


I had a look. It's a 1.8Meg jpeg. Yes, 1.8Meg!

Not the easiest thing to download, and my Netscape Gold just refuses
to display it.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 03:14:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:10:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans
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Frogguy wrote:

> I am in the process of downloading the first set of
> gallows (and, at 0.5K/sec, it is painful...) and...

> BON SANG! They are the spit image of Voynichese!

My feelings exactly, as I saw the image grow on my screen.

But after some immature reflection (I am after all only
a dillettante), I came to another conclusion. These
gallows look like signatures. They seem to me like
embellishments with a purpose: that of proving that
the document is really from the source it purports
to be. This could be the personal style of the notary
or college or monastery involved. A signature as I said.

> It seems likely that the Voynich authors knew about
> those gallows.

I would agree. Only their purpose is likely to be
different (IMHO). At one point I had the impression that
the VMs gallows tend to cluster more at first lines of
paragraphs, but I rather think they are simply drawn
more prominently when the space is there.

If Cappelli does not have many illustrations, than the
fact that this one is oncluded also seems to be an
indication that this feature is rather special. Unless
someone who has the source book available can deny
this assumption.

FWIW,
    Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 04:11:03 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:06:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans
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X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Status: OR

On 16 Jun 97 at 11:18, Jacques Guy wrote:

> I am in the process of downloading the first set of
> gallows (and, at 0.5K/sec, it is painful...) and...
> 
> BON SANG! They are the spit image of Voynichese!

I was quite surprised as well.
Some details. The right hand side of the loop is itself different 
from whatever we see in the vms.
The horizontal stroke (the connection) is part of the character. I 
wonder then if the complex gallows are just 1 character.

Very interesting. I wonder how common these characters were. 

cheers,

Gabriel

From reeds Mon Jun 16 10:01:02 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9706161001.ZM10503@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:01:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Re: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans" (Jun 16,  8:03)
References: <9706160808.AB06505@sun1.bham.ac.uk>  <33A555D7.18E3@micro-net.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Status: OR

Let me summarize the situation as I see it.

An ongoing thread in discussions of the Voynich MS has been the source of
the alphabet, only some letters of which looked like ordinary letters or
numbers. So a non European origin, or at least some non European influence,
was posited for the VMS.

To the contrary, I argued at the begining of this year, many of the supposedly
non-standard Voynich letters were exactly the sorts of fanciful invented
letters used in Europe in ciphers.  By good luck I found an edition of
Tranchedino's late 1400's book of cipher alphabets, many of which had a
strong Voynich-like look.  Rene Zandbergen said (if I recall correctly)
that all that was lacking from the Tranchedino collection were the gallows-like
letters.

So now we see the gallows-like decorative letters in the document reproduced
in Cappelli.

I think it is now clear that all the VMS letter shapes are well within the
range of fanciful and decorative letter shapes actually used in the late
middle ages.  If you had asked an Italian of 1470 to invent a cipher alphabet
he would have come up with something like the VMS alphabet, and there is nothing
about the VMS alphabet incompatible with such an origin.

Of course I make no claims of the form "Tranchedino was the VMS author"
or "the VMS author visited the monastary of St. Savino in Piacenza".  I am
saying that all the VMS letter shapes fall well within the repetoire of
alphabetic letter-like shapes available to, and used by,  European scribes
of the 1400s.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178


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Subject: Re: Gallows, Glagolithic and Greek
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 15:20:41 +0100 ( + )
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          From     Denis  Mardle           16 June 1997 

<<<<
    V. A. Istrin; *Tysiacha sto let slavianskoy azbuki. (1100 years 
of Slavic Alphabets.)*  Izdatyel'stvo Akadyemiy Nauk SSSR, Moskva (Moscow)
1963.
   >>>>

 Reference the discussion on the Alphabets in Istrin  my  multi-lingual
contact has pointed out that there are many fonts on Wordperfect 6.0 
including Russian, Ukranian and Old Slavonic etc.  He has printed
them out for me in edited form with approximate phonetic equivalents.

On the VMs I presume that everyone realises that, even excluding first
symbols of paragraphs,  the Currier B and V plus the rarer W and Y are
much more common on first lines of paragraphs than on other lines for
both Language A and B.   I haven't checked yet if the same is true for
P,F,Q and X 

Denis.  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 09:16:10 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> On 16 Jun 97 at 11:18, Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> > I am in the process of downloading the first set of
> > gallows (and, at 0.5K/sec, it is painful...) and...
> >
> > BON SANG! They are the spit image of Voynichese!
> 
> I was quite surprised as well.
> Some details. The right hand side of the loop is itself different
> from whatever we see in the vms.
> The horizontal stroke (the connection) is part of the character. I
> wonder then if the complex gallows are just 1 character.

	These things certainly do look like gallows!  Looking at the top line,
most of the gallows characters are in fact embellishments on top of
normal characters in the main line of text.  However, in the word
"sancti" in the phrase "infra monasterium sancti Savini", the gallows
character forms the letters "sanc".  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 09:11:05 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Here is a summary of what Toresella says about alchemical herbals 
in his paper:

    Toresella, Sergio. ``Gli erbari degli alchimisti. [Alchemical 
herbals.]'' In Arte farmaceutica e piante medicinali -- erbari, vasi, 
strumenti e testi dalle raccolte liguri [Pharmaceutical art and 
medicinal plants -- herbals, jars, instruments and texts of the 
Ligurian collections], Liana Saginati, ed. Pisa: Pacini Editore, 1996, 
pp.31-70. [Profusely illustrated. Fits the VMS into an ``alchemical 
herbal'' tradition.] 

    1)  "Alchemical herbals" is really a misnomer, since these herbals 
contain little or no alchemical imagery.  A Bolognese naturalist, 
Ulisse Aldrovandi (1522-1605) collected some of these herbals and 
labeled them "plants of the alchemists".  Toresella calls these 
"alchemical herbals" for lack of anything better.  (44-7) 
    
    2)  Some pictures in the alchemical herbals can be traced to 
pseudo-Apuleius and the *Circa Instans* of the Salerno Medical School.  
However, the alchemical herbal is an autonomous tradition that may 
have begun in the XIII century.  No existing specimens predate the 
middle of the XIV century, their heyday was the XV century, and they 
disappeared at the middle of the XVI century.  (52)  "They all seem 
strictly Italian because, except for two cases, all the alchemical 
herbals, about seventy, were produced in Italy, in prevalence in 
northern Italy, in the Veneto area."  (51) 
    
    3)  They only contain plant images, along with a few human images.  
The images are of known plants rendered in a fantastic fashion and 
labeled with incomprehensible names.  They contain from 10 to 200 
images; there are some imagess found in all alchemical herbals.  (p. 
49) 

    4)  There are visual puns (human figures for a mandrake root(fig 
7), a root like a fish for luccia maggiore (fig 14), a hat for a 
teodora plant (fig. 15), a root like a wolf (with goat horns!) for 
luparina (17), and a man's head in a testatoris.  Geometric figures 
(circles, ellipses, quadralaterals) are also common.  Indeed visual 
puns are more common than in the VMs.   

    5)  The text varied according to the educational level of the 
person for whom the alchemical herbal was made.  Often the texts and 
pictures were intended for public display and reading.  "The recipes 
found in the alchemical herbals are often absurb and irrational: 
spells to become invisible or to find hidden treasures and are 
accompanied by incantations and invocations for the most part pious, 
but also including some to evil spirits, including the famous magical 
quatrain Sator Arepo Tenet Opera Rotas or the more modest 
Abracadabra." (p. 57) 

    6)  Although Toresella expresses his opinion that the author of 
the Voynich Manuscript suffered from insanity, that does not 
necessarily mean that the text has no meaning.  Indeed, his statement 
that the author "thought that he had discovered the secret of the 
world; a secret to entrust to a language and a cryptic script" would 
seem to indicate that the text is meaningful.  There are a range of 
possible levels of meaningfulness.   
        
    7)  Those who used the alchemical herbals practiced "traveling 
medicine." (p. 47)  These healers practiced "demotic medicine, the 
offspring of a very ancient medical culture, mostly transmitted 
orally, and distinguished from official medicine especially by its 
lack of an organic theory of illness." (P. 48) 

    Thus saying that they were to impress the ignorant misses the 
point.  These various types of practitioners of "travelling medicine" 
were medieval folk healers, such as are found in all pre-modern 
cultures.  In south Louisiana one still finds a few traiteurs, the 
traditional healers of Cajun culture.  In Mexico the curanderos are 
quite active.  In many third-world countries these folk healers 
operate in addition to physicians trained in Western medicine.  The 
alchemical herbals are best understood as shamanistic healing props.   
(This last point is more mine than Toresella's.)   

    However, some of the users of these herbals were undoubtedly pure 
quacks; Toresella calls Master Ghino a charlatan.   

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 11:35:04 1997
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Dear all

I fully subscribe to Jim's overview of the sources of
the VMs script:

> I am saying that all the VMS letter shapes fall well
> within the repetoire of alphabetic letter-like shapes
> available to, and used by,  European scribes of the 1400s.

We may even leave the Voynich writer some imagination
of his own: there are still the intruding gallows
which seem relatively original, but the writer's
originality is sufficiently evident from the drawings
anyway.

Alas, the examples we have for the characters do not
help very much in deciding what they may stand for in the VMs.

> Of course I make no claims of the form "Tranchedino was
> the VMS author" or "the VMS author visited the monastary
> of St. Savino in Piacenza".

The former we can be pretty sure is not the case. The
latter would not have helped us a great deal. There are
probably more Mss with similar gallows.

But, now that there is at least a clear idea about how
A and/or B put the script together, the next question
has to be: why?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 11:38:03 1997
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Apologies for following up to my own mail, but I should have
been more precise.

I wrote:

> there are still the intruding gallows which seem
> relatively original,

while they are always 'almost' intruding in the
Cappelli example.

In the VMs, of course, when the gallows intrude,
it is essentially always in the Currier S. And that
S is also the one that can have a little plume of
perhaps varying shapes above it. There must be some
design behind all this and the answer to my 'why'
might come closer if someone found some logic to
explain this peculiar behaviour.

Cheers, Rene




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun 15 21:26:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans
Status: OR

I am in the process of downloading the first set of
gallows (and, at 0.5K/sec, it is painful...) and...

BON SANG! They are the spit image of Voynichese!

It seems likely that the Voynich authors knew about 
those gallows. Of course, we could entertain the notion
that they were the inventors, and that what I am seeing
slowly forming on my screen is inspired from Voynichese,
but it seems unlikely.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 15:29:23 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Cappelli
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 20:28:37 +0100 ( + )
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   From       Denis  Mardle           16 June 1997

Jim

 Your summary of today seems to point towards Italy and
away from England and the Ukraine.    You have not, however,
mentioned Mary D'Imperio's Fig. 17 on page 95.    This is a 
comparison of Latin abbreviations that fit Voynich symbols.
 Lo and behold it is apapted from  Adriano Cappelli (1949) -
"Lexicon Abbreviaturarum", Milan, Ulrico Hoepli.
 This must be a different book to yours and should tie Italian to
Latin.   Rene should note how Currier symbols occur.  For S there
is ra, ci or cri;  For Z circ;  For F -mbrus; For P a joining of the left part
as qu ( which is a bit like 4 ) with the right part as -is, -s- ;  For 2 there
is cun, con, cum, quon ; For 9 there is con, cum, com and as an ending
-us,os,is,-s ; For J and 6 various near misses; OE could be one but needs a mark
over the E;  Best of all are the D for ter,in-,im- ; ID for -um and IID for -tum,
-mum and -ntum.   All plus others related to weirdoes.

  Does anyone have this Latin book ?

Cheers       Denis

From reeds Mon Jun 16 16:17:54 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9706161617.ZM4931@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:17:54 -0400
In-Reply-To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
        "Cappelli" (Jun 16, 20:28)
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To: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Cappelli
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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I am sure the Cappelli D'Imperio saw is an earlier edition of the Cappelli
I have.  It is used by essentially all medievalists who have anything to
do with manuscripts.  It lists abbreviations and conventional signs used
in writing throughout the middle ages, throughout Europe.  Not all abbreviations
were used everywhere, at all times; Cappelli gives a century or century
range for each entry.

I don't really know what point D'Imperio was trying to make with her Fig. 17.
Let me hijack her evidence, and use it this way:  Cappelli and Fig. 17
show how many of these VMS-like letter shapes were in common use in medieval
Europe as conventional abbreviations, in addition to their uses as decorative
letter elements and as invented cipher letters discussed in my earlier posting.
More evidence, in other words, that the VMS letters are European letters.

Is it likely that Cappelli is the Rosetta stone for the VMS, that Currier F
in the VMS means "mbrus" because the same letter shape was so used in ordinary
writing in medieval Europe?  I think we discussed this several years ago,
with the usual results.  

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:21:38 -0700
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Clay Holden <cholden@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cappelli
Status: OR

Denis,

> [...]    You have not, however,
>mentioned Mary D'Imperio's Fig. 17 on page 95.    This is a
>comparison of Latin abbreviations that fit Voynich symbols.
> Lo and behold it is apapted from  Adriano Cappelli (1949) -
>"Lexicon Abbreviaturarum", Milan, Ulrico Hoepli.
>  [...]
>  Does anyone have this Latin book ?

The two books are the same. The title page of the 1967 edition reads as
follows:

"MANUALI HOEPLI // LEXICON ABBREVIATURARUM // DIZIONARIO DI / ABBREVIATURE
/ LATINE ED ITALIANE // USATE NELLE CARTE E CODICI SPECIALMENTE DEL
MEDIO-EVO / RIPRODOTTE CON OLTRE 14000 SEGNI INCISI // con l'aggiunta di
uno studio sulla brachigrafia medioevale, un / prontuario di Sigle
Epigrafiche, l'antica numerazione romana / ed arabica ed i segni indicanti
monete, pesi, misure, etc. // PER CURA DI //ADRIANO CAPPELLI /
Archivista-Paleografo // Seste edizione (anastatica) / corredata con 9
tavole fuori testo // [publisher's mark] // EDITORE ULRICO HOEPLI MILANO //
Ristampa 1967"

Cappelli's Preface was written in March, 1929.

As far as I know, this book is still available in reprint from the same
publisher, as I bought one no more than three years ago at Stanford
Bookstore. Anyone out there with access to an online Books-in-Print?

Clay


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 18:17:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:11:04 -0700
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Clay Holden <cholden@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cappelli
Status: OR

Sorry if this hits twice, but my SMTP server appears to have been burping
today.

Denis,

> [...]    You have not, however,
>mentioned Mary D'Imperio's Fig. 17 on page 95.    This is a
>comparison of Latin abbreviations that fit Voynich symbols.
> Lo and behold it is apapted from  Adriano Cappelli (1949) -
>"Lexicon Abbreviaturarum", Milan, Ulrico Hoepli.
>  [...]
>  Does anyone have this Latin book ?

The two books are the same. The title page of the 1967 edition reads as
follows:

"MANUALI HOEPLI // LEXICON ABBREVIATURARUM // DIZIONARIO DI / ABBREVIATURE
/ LATINE ED ITALIANE // USATE NELLE CARTE E CODICI SPECIALMENTE DEL
MEDIO-EVO / RIPRODOTTE CON OLTRE 14000 SEGNI INCISI // con l'aggiunta di
uno studio sulla brachigrafia medioevale, un / prontuario di Sigle
Epigrafiche, l'antica numerazione romana / ed arabica ed i segni indicanti
monete, pesi, misure, etc. // PER CURA DI //ADRIANO CAPPELLI /
Archivista-Paleografo // Seste edizione (anastatica) / corredata con 9
tavole fuori testo // [publisher's mark] // EDITORE ULRICO HOEPLI MILANO //
Ristampa 1967"

Cappelli's Preface was written in March, 1929.

As far as I know, this book is still available in reprint from the same
publisher, as I bought one no more than three years ago at Stanford
Bookstore. Anyone out there with access to an online Books-in-Print?

Clay


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 19:41:05 1997
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Message-ID: <33A5BD95.73EA866E@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:26:31 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: Re: Updated Cappelli Tavola IV scans
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> I am saying that all the VMS letter shapes fall well within the repetoire
> of alphabetic letter-like shapes available to, and used by,  European
> scribes of the 1400s.

    With evidence that even the Gallows were represented in some Southern
European documents (I'll even include the Byzantine cursive Izhe), one
would certainly have to agree that some European scribes would have at
least been influenced by the existence of these characters if they were
creating alphabets - be it cipher or a language void of written forms. If
we've narrowed the focus successfully to southern Europe (which I don't
want to be the one to make that an absolute), then could we go a step
further and suggest that the language (or underlying language) would then
be affected by inflections?  Do they all have definite and indefinite
articles? Do they all change verbs, nouns and adjectives by Gender, number,
and case?

                                                         John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 18:41:11 1997
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:38:16 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Status: OR

    The fold out page prior to Pisces has three of the circular plates
similar in style to the ones that the zodiacs sit on. I'm calling them
plates for lack of better definition for myself, however the center one on
this page has an odd (can you believe something odd in the VMs?) outer rim.
It appears to have dots running around the border that slowly expand into
o's near the top and then into written Voynich characters before fading
back into dots. I can only provide the conjecture that the Copyist (Scribe)
is possibly copying the text from a 3D object where only at the top does he
view some of the characters encircling the rim. The dots are just the
bottom of other characters completely hidden from view... Of course the
fact that you can see 9 o's prior to a currier E makes the idea of
continuous text doubtful.

                John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 20:35:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:33:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Cappelli
In-Reply-To: <v03020902afcb6a3cb4ea@[204.188.12.143]>
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On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Clay Holden wrote:

> follows:
> 
> "MANUALI HOEPLI // LEXICON ABBREVIATURARUM // DIZIONARIO DI / ABBREVIATURE
> / LATINE ED ITALIANE // USATE NELLE CARTE E CODICI SPECIALMENTE DEL
> MEDIO-EVO / RIPRODOTTE CON OLTRE 14000 SEGNI INCISI // con l'aggiunta di
> uno studio sulla brachigrafia medioevale, un / prontuario di Sigle
> Epigrafiche, l'antica numerazione romana / ed arabica ed i segni indicanti
> monete, pesi, misure, etc. // PER CURA DI //ADRIANO CAPPELLI /
> Archivista-Paleografo // Seste edizione (anastatica) / corredata con 9
> tavole fuori testo // [publisher's mark] // EDITORE ULRICO HOEPLI MILANO //
> Ristampa 1967"
> 
> Cappelli's Preface was written in March, 1929.
> 
> As far as I know, this book is still available in reprint from the same
> publisher, as I bought one no more than three years ago at Stanford
> Bookstore. Anyone out there with access to an online Books-in-Print?
> 
> Clay
> 
Contributors: Cappelli, Adriano (Editor)
Title:        Dizionario di Abbreviature Latine Ed Italiane
Language:     Italian Latin
Publisher:    S. F. Vanni
Year:         1990
Pages:        531p.
Illustration: Illustrated
ISBN/Price:   0-913298-95-6 Trade Cloth $42.00
Subj (BIP):   ITALIAN-LANGUAGE-DICTIONARIES> 
> 

R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 21:56:05 1997
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From: Brian Smith <briansm@MICROSOFT.com>
To: "'Jacques Guy'" <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: RE: Cappelli, el cheapo edition
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:53:03 -0700
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.30)
Status: OR

The $4.50 version at amazon.com is just a translation of the
introduction to the full Dizionario.  It does not include the dictionary
proper, nor the plates discussed in the past week.  The introduction is
a useful discusion of the theory behind medieval abbreviation but not a
substitute for the whole thing.
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jacques Guy [SMTP:j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 17, 1997 9:41 AM
> To:	voynich@rand.org
> Subject:	Re: Cappelli, el cheapo edition
> 
> (my apologies to R.Brzustowicz, I pressed the wrong button,
>  and he is going to get two copies of this)
> 
> 
> >Contributors: Cappelli, Adriano (Editor)
> >Title:        Dizionario di Abbreviature Latine Ed Italiane
> 
> >ISBN/Price:   0-913298-95-6 Trade Cloth $42.00
> 
> I found that www.amazon.com had a shorter, paperback, version
> of it for ... $4.50! And it seems to be pretty good according
> to the review of it there. So what do you think? I ordered
> a copy, of course. Search for it under Cappelli Adrianie.
> Yes, "Adrianie" -- they misspelt his first name. But they
> get it only special order, which means up to 6 weeks, or,
> if it is no longer in stock, never.
> 
> At any rate, it seems to that, at long, long, long last,
> we are getting somewhere with the VMS. As for the
> month names in the zodiac, I still hold to my original
> opinion that they were added much later by the
> owner of the manuscript at the time, who was not the
> author. If you remember, several years ago, we had a
> short discussion about those month names, and someone
> came up with evidence that "octember" was typical of Slavic
> languages. Just what you would expect to see in Prague,
> I'd say.
> 
> I still can't figure out why anyone could think that
> those month names were in French (I am sure I read
> that opinion somewhere).

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 22:56:05 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: VM Months
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:52:26 -0400 (EDT)
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Status: OR

Several of the months that are most readable on my Xerox of the VM appear
very close to the _Catalan_  month names, specifically:

            Catalan            VM

March        marc,            marc
April        abril            abril
May          maig             maig

November     novembre         nove~bre

however,

October      octubre          octe~bre



where   c, = c with cedilla      e~ = e with bar (like Latin abbrev. em)

Even the good months are hard to make out so this may be wishful thinking
on my part.

Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 03:29:03 1997
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Dear all,

Apart from French and now Catalan, Spanish has also been offered
as the language for the month names. Now in the 1400's all of
these languages were different from what they are now. They were
certainly more diverse. There are some nice web resources about
Occitan, and there I found that this small language community is still
capable of maintaining a dozen or so distinct dialects.
It is not clear to me whether it's going to be possible to identify
the language more precisely than being of Latin descent. And for the
month names this unfortunately does not exclude many interesting
candidates. Maybe they are just in someone's pseudo-Latin?

That they were added later seems to be generally agreed. Let
me wonder about this for a moment. Again I ask why? It must have
been obvious to the most ignorant or confused person that the
pictures were of the zodiac. And the zodiac signs do not really correspond
with months all that much, not even when the calender was 10-11
days out of sync. Was the person who did it explaining something
or was he just guessing. My guess is the latter, but the former
would be more interesting.
Still, why does it say 'Mars' 'Abril' etc instead of 'Aries', 'Taurus'
etc??

Manley further speculates that the zodiac emblems were drawn later
as well.  This I find difficult to believe though.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 07:38:05 1997
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Subject: Meaningful/meaningless
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 Dear all,

 in the Toresella scenario, which Dennis has explained
 very well IMHO, the question remains how meaningful the
 contents of the VMs could be. I like to think of
 the distinction between meaningful and meaningless
 as a very fuzzy one, as illustrated by the following
 series of statements:
1 'The bear always has 1 or 2 cubs'
2 'Bear cubs are born amorphous and licked into shape by the
  mother'
3 'The unicorn is invisible because it feeds on the
  invisible plant xyplyx
4 To become invisible say: 'sator arepo tenet opera rotas'
5 In order to globglib eat fratnik from Trabzun
6 Michiton oladabas nonix quadrix marsin nisram zadzaczadlin
7 ;okfdjg n;lnl;kdfjg jsd;fljg lskdfg

All of (1) to (6) could have meaning to the writer
of these statements. On the other hand, only
(1) and (2) are completely meaningful to
everybody, even though (2) is unreasonable (yet
firmly believed in ancient times). The problem as I
see it is with (5) or (6), and which could be the
result of various levels of mental confusion of the
writer. I once read a letter from a confused person
who thought he had invented a new technique for rocket
propulsion. It was sent to the professor I was at the
time graduating with. He immediately suspected us
of playing a trick with him and he may still believe
this :-). The text was of the
level of (4) - (5). This letter could be read because it
was written in sentences and most of the sentences,
though very ungrammatical, made general sense.
(Or perhaps he was a genius and we simply failed to
understand it)

The point is: which of the above is closest to the VMs
contents? I think (7) is excluded because of all the
interesting features found by Currier, Tiltman and ff.
With (6) we probably have to distinguish between (6a) and
(6b) where the writer did or did not think he was
writing down the meaning of life, the universe and everything.
If the VMs is (6) we may never know for sure whether
it has been deciphered or not.
If the VMs is (5) I think that we'll recognise that a
solution has been found once it's been found.

Both Levitov's and Strong's decipherment I would rate
in the (5) category, but both interpret the result
in order to obtain meaningful text, by claiming it's
an odd mixture of languages (in different ways).

Stojko gets a (1) but many short meaningful sentences do not
a meaningful text make.

Any thoughts please?

Cheers, Rene





From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 10:44:03 1997
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           From      Denis  Mardle               17 June 1997

John
<<<
                              ... Of course the
fact that you can see 9 o's prior to a currier E makes the idea of
continuous text doubtful.
      >>>
 When I saw this on my first scan of the copy-flo I thought it was a
doodle,  but then I saw that the diagram had 9 segments !?!

Regards        Denis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 10:44:07 1997
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      From Denis Mardle           17 June 1997

Thanks everyone for the useful replies

 Jim         I didn't mean that the Vms was in plain Latin,
but one could imagine it full of abbreviations via a simple
substitution or ditto and consonants only.  I am thinking
hard about how to chop up VMs words into consonant
only words without knowing the language, assuming a
simple or nearly simple consonant substitution.  

Cheers            Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 10:44:08 1997
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To: Rene Zandbergen <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Meaningful/meaningless
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 15:40:28 +0100 ( + )
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         From Denis      17 June 1997

Rene   you said
<<<
...Both Levitov's and Strong's decipherment I would rate
in the (5) category, but both interpret the result
in order to obtain meaningful text, by claiming it's
an odd mixture of languages (in different ways).

Stojko gets a (1) but many short meaningful sentences do not
a meaningful text make.

Any thoughts please?
  >>>

  One of the big problems with the VMs is it's repetitiveness
and the Initial, median and final structure.   Some words repeat
locally too often.  Now I think this fits best with consonant only
words and a limited vocabulary. One is then almost forced into
short sentences.  At this stage I am saying nothing about the
language,  but we need to know if we can construct deciphered
meaningful text in other than proto-Slavonic.    Does anyone have
a corpus of Basic English ?  This is supposed to have only 800 words.
I suspect the VMs with vowels not showing could have even less.

 As an experiment try assuming that SOE, TOE, chol ( Currier, FSG, eva )
is a word of 3 consonants and note what happens when it is in the
Init, Med, Fin positions for Languages A and B,  Then take 
ZOE,SOE,shol   also SOR,TOR,chor  and ZOR,SOR,shor.
  I think you will  find the results interesting as I have.  Stojko has
Z as two consonants.

Good hunting              Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 16 21:47:04 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Cappelli, el cheapo edition
Status: OR

(my apologies to R.Brzustowicz, I pressed the wrong button,
 and he is going to get two copies of this)


>Contributors: Cappelli, Adriano (Editor)
>Title:        Dizionario di Abbreviature Latine Ed Italiane

>ISBN/Price:   0-913298-95-6 Trade Cloth $42.00

I found that www.amazon.com had a shorter, paperback, version
of it for ... $4.50! And it seems to be pretty good according
to the review of it there. So what do you think? I ordered
a copy, of course. Search for it under Cappelli Adrianie.
Yes, "Adrianie" -- they misspelt his first name. But they
get it only special order, which means up to 6 weeks, or,
if it is no longer in stock, never.

At any rate, it seems to that, at long, long, long last,
we are getting somewhere with the VMS. As for the
month names in the zodiac, I still hold to my original
opinion that they were added much later by the
owner of the manuscript at the time, who was not the
author. If you remember, several years ago, we had a
short discussion about those month names, and someone
came up with evidence that "octember" was typical of Slavic
languages. Just what you would expect to see in Prague,
I'd say.

I still can't figure out why anyone could think that
those month names were in French (I am sure I read
that opinion somewhere).

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 11:20:06 1997
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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:15:09 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

>  I like to think of
>  the distinction between meaningful and meaningless
>  as a very fuzzy one, as illustrated by the following
>  series of statements:
> 1 'The bear always has 1 or 2 cubs'
> 2 'Bear cubs are born amorphous and licked into shape by the
>   mother'
> 3 'The unicorn is invisible because it feeds on the
>   invisible plant xyplyx
> 4 To become invisible say: 'sator arepo tenet opera rotas'
> 5 In order to globglib eat fratnik from Trabzun
> 6 Michiton oladabas nonix quadrix marsin nisram zadzaczadlin
> 7 ;okfdjg n;lnl;kdfjg jsd;fljg lskdfg

	I think Rene has summarized the possibilities pretty well.  Due to the
low entropy of the text, possibilities 1-5 would have to be in an EKT
cipher, a low-entropy language like Japanese or Polynesian, or a
low-entropy notation (one that excludes many features) of a normal
European language.  

> The point is: which of the above is closest to the VMs
> contents? I think (7) is excluded because of all the
> interesting features found by Currier, Tiltman and ff.

	Unfortunately, I don't think that we can exclude (7).  Remember
Jacques' experiment where he generated pseudo-Tahitian by combining 8
consonants and 5 vowels to create 40 possible syllables.  Then he chose
these 40 syllables at random!  Tiltman's paradigm might be simply a
formula for generating nonsense.  

	Jim Reeds recently made a remark about glossalalia generation rules. 
Do such rules exist?  I'm attaching an old post by Jim on this subject.  

	Does anyone have computer files of glossalalia transcripts that we
could analyze?  I asked Moonhawk; he said he didn't have any and would
like to have some himself.  

Dennis

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: reeds@research.att.com
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 94 16:14 EDT
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich MS, by Voynich?

Patrick (kkt@u.washington.edu) argues

>Could a 1912 book collector get ahold of a supply of medieval-looking
>vellum?

   Rare book dealer; just about as well placed as anyone could be, I
should
   think.

>Is there enough time unaccounted in W. Voynich's life for him to have
>prepared the MS?  It took Petersen, what, 3-4 years I think I read, to

   He got the photocpies in 1931, finished copying in 1944!  Actually, I
think
   it would have been easy for a forger, at any period, not concerned
with
   accuracy.  Make up an alphabet sheet, and start writing.  Soon you
will
   find yourself writing quicker, as you get used to the funny letters,
and
   in a week will be writing at full speed (several pages an hour, I
suppose;
   finish the whole thing off in a month).  WHAT you write is harder. 
If I
   were a forger, called upon to write Voynich II, I would write it in 
   Esperanto (which I do not know), like this:  "Wagaloon perizotal
nigruxam
   nufitau wifnud.  Clavison noriliue redoxilor pamilud.  Winfrax,
nostrivil
   totofund limpox lidilond totolond riefleg.  Hazute vinord efritol
zimal...",
   SAYING IT TO MYSELF AS I WENT ALONG.  I don't know the technical
jargon 
   word for it, but it is possible to turn off the "making sense" part
of 
   your language while keeping the "sounds right" part.  This will
account
   for all sorts of statistical regularities & phenomena of just the
sort
   we see in the VMS.

>and Petersen didn't have to ... work out
>plausible people in Rudolph II's court as one-time owners and writers

   Agreed: the "scholarship" would be harder.  Maybe he exploited
knowledge
   he came by previously.

>About hands A and B, did he have an assistant who did a lot of the
>copying and kept his mouth shut ever since?  

   Assistant, I suppose, who speaks a different dialect of nonsense.  My
   daughter and I invented a private language (Pengin Tok) which we
pronounce
   and spell differently, so why not Msrs. A and B?  (Odd, I suppose,
   that penguins talk pigeon:  "Duk tok hobble tok.  Pengin tok poch
tok.
   Annanamam eat poch hich?  Duk no eat hich.  Duk hobble buhd.  Duk
   no wike pengin wookawy.  Pengin PECK duk, ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!")

   Many of these issues were thrashed out in an exchange in Cryptologia
   a few years ago.

Jim Reeds

From reeds Tue Jun 17 15:30:01 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9706171530.ZM25581@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:30:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Word Divisions" (Jun 17, 13:52)
References: <9706160808.AB06505@sun1.bham.ac.uk>  <33A555D7.18E3@micro-net.com> 
	<9706161001.ZM10503@research.att.com> 
	<33A6F8EF.75AF@micro-net.com>
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Status: OR

On Jun 17, 13:52, Dennis wrote: 
....
> 	I've always wondered whether the "word" divisions might instead be
> syllable divisions.  

Very good thought.   The shapes of syllables (optional consonant cluster + vowel +
optional consonant cluster) might well be what we see in the "Tiltman paradigm".
> 
> 	Any thoughts, anyone?  Was there anything in Tradechino about word
> divisions?  In modern field ciphers, of course, word divisions are
> omitted and the characters divided up into five-letter groups.  Does
> Capelli have anything on having or not having word divisions?
> 

I don't remember what Tradechino did with word breaks (I only saw the book briefly).
I think ciphers typically retained word breaks in Tradechino's time, and much later, too.
I think that the division into 5 letter groups is entirely a 20th century phenomenon, resulting
from the introduction of telegraphic code books with artificial code words in the first decade
of this century.  I think most writing in the middle ages had word breaks, usually indicated by
spaces, occasionally by dots.  (Look at the Cappelli  plate that started this week's spurt of
activity.)

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 14:56:05 1997
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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:52:00 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Word Divisions
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Jim Reeds wrote:
> 
> So now we see the gallows-like decorative letters in the document reproduced
> in Cappelli.
> 
> I think it is now clear that all the VMS letter shapes are well within the
> range of fanciful and decorative letter shapes actually used in the late
> middle ages.  If you had asked an Italian of 1470 to invent a cipher alphabet
> he would have come up with something like the VMS alphabet, and there is nothing
> about the VMS alphabet incompatible with such an origin.
> 
> Of course I make no claims of the form "Tranchedino was the VMS author"
> or "the VMS author visited the monastary of St. Savino in Piacenza".  I am
> saying that all the VMS letter shapes fall well within the repetoire of
> alphabetic letter-like shapes available to, and used by,  European scribes
> of the 1400s.

	Great!!! This is the most clarity we've had in ages.  

	I'd like to bring up the perennial question of word divisions and their
meaning.  Is there anything in Tradechino and/or Capelli to enlighten us
on this?

	We've thought that the word divisions might have nothing to do with the
actual, spoken-language word divisions, but might rather part of the
graphotactic constraints of the script, since the letters at the end of
words tend to have a flourish.  We've thought that such graphotactic
constraints might have come from an Arabic influence, since Arabic
script works like this.  

	If the Voynich script is of purely northern Italian origin, this might
not be true.  Too, Arabic script is much more complex, with 3-4
different forms for each letter.  

	I've always wondered whether the "word" divisions might instead be
syllable divisions.  

	Any thoughts, anyone?  Was there anything in Tradechino about word
divisions?  In modern field ciphers, of course, word divisions are
omitted and the characters divided up into five-letter groups.  Does
Capelli have anything on having or not having word divisions?

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 17:38:05 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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Hi, Voynichers --

I'm back from Maui and have just done a largish bout of subscribing and
unsubscribing of new members.  For those new members who didn't really
want to be here, please email me (jim@acm.org) alone -- not the whole
list.  Seems there's been a spate of phony subscription requests to
harrass people, so I'm not confident that all the recent requests were
real.  But no sweat -- just ask to be removed.

For the old members, please note that you now have a fair number of new
faces in the audience, so give more background in your on-going
threads than you normally would, and please take this opportunity to
point to important Web and ftp sites in your messages.

An oldish Welcome, mini-faq, and archive are at ftp.rand.org: pub/voynich.
The mini-faq points to some useful Web sites.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org

From madimi@internetmci.com  Tue Jun 17 21:17:05 1997
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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:37:09 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Word Divisions
To: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I don't remember what Tradechino did with word breaks (I only saw the
book briefly).
> I think ciphers typically retained word breaks in Tradechino's time, and
much later, too.
> I think that the division into 5 letter groups is entirely a 20th century
phenomenon, resulting
> from the introduction of telegraphic code books with artificial code
words in the first decade
> of this century.  I think most writing in the middle ages had word
breaks, usually indicated by
> spaces, occasionally by dots.  (Look at the Cappelli  plate that started
this week's spurt of
> activity.)

With one peculiar exception to the rule, I agree fully with your analysis. 
The only exception I know of is a system that has no word breaks at all,
unless you count Trithemian systems.  Many Trithemian systems, although
contained within cover text, did not allow for spaces, since the word
spacing was left to the reader to understand.

Every system known from this time period either used proper word breaks or
no breaks at all, leaving the concept of artificial word groups alone. 
Perhaps we can add this to our list of "Known Facts and Best Assumptions". 
The Voynich word groups are individual linguistic units?

My known facts list has three validity ratings, familiar to some of you:

A.  Proven from validated information provided by three or more sources.

B.  Validated from more than one source, but some doubts exist.

C.  Could be true, could be not true, but a logical guess.

I would give the word break issue a B-val rating.

Any ideas on a more flexible rating scheme for my "Voynich Facts and
Fiction" file?


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 17 23:20:34 1997
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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:16:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@MICRO-NET.COM>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Voynich Mini-FAQ
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------------------------- Voynich mini-FAQ --------------------------
June 17, 1997

	In 1912, Wilfrid M. Voynich (a book collector) bought a medieval
manuscript (235 pages) written in an unknown script and what appears to be
an unknown language or a cipher from the Jesuit College at the Villa
Mondragone, Frascati, in Italy (near Rome).  However, despite the efforts
of many well known cryptologists and scholars, the book remains unread.
Since 1969, it is at Yale University, at the Beinecke Rare Book Library
with catalogue number MS 408. 

	It is known (from a letter of J. M. Marci in 1665/6) that the
manuscript was bought by Emperor Rudolph II of Bohemia (1552-1612) for 600
ducats (an exorbitant sum in those days). The manuscript somehow passed to
Jacobus de Tepenecz, the director of Rudolph's botanical gardens (his
signature is present in folio 1r) and it is speculated that this must have
happened after 1608, when Jacobus Horcicki received his title "de
Tepenecz".  Thus 1608 is the earliest definite date for the Manuscript. 

	The Voynich Manuscript, as it has come to be known, contains many
drawings of plants, but the plants have not been identified, nor have the
drawings been identified with known fanciful or distorted drawings of
plants from the Middle Ages. There are what look like astrological
drawings.  There are curious drawing of little nude women bathing in baths
with convoluted plumbing; nothing else like these drawings is known.  The
persons and costumes look generally European.  The script seems to have
been developed from early Arabic numerals and medieval Latin
abbreviations, but composed of these elements in a unique manner.  The
Voynich Manuscript looks a little like a lot of things, but really like
nothing else at all.  

	Mary D'Imperio's book, noted below, discusses possible
historical influences on the Voynich Manuscript.  For a more recent list
of such historical precedents, see
http://www.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/precednt.txt 

	Computer analysis of the Voynich Manuscript has only deepened the 
mystery.  One finding has been that there are two "languages" or 
"dialects" of Voynichese, which are called Voynich A and Voynich B.  The 
repetitiousness of the text is obvious to casual inspection.  Entropy is 
a numerical measure of the randomness of text.  The lower the entropy, 
the less random and the more repetitious it is.  The entropy of samples 
of Voynich text is lower than that of most human languages; only some 
Polynesian languages are as low.  

*Web pages*  Here's the best one to start with:

EVMT project home page
http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

This one points to all other info:

Voynich Manuscript (Jim Reeds)
http://netlib.bell-labs.com/math/people/reeds/voynich.html

*Books*

THE VOYNICH MANUSCRIPT: An Elegant Enigma, M. E. D'Imperio. 8.5 x 11", ix
+ 140 pp. This is surely the most comprehensive and scholarly study of the
Voynich Manuscript. An essential text for anyone studying this mysterious
document. C-27 Soft cover $18.80 ISBN: 0-89412-038-7 (1996 catalog). It is
published by Aegean Park Press.  They're at PO Box 2837, Laguna Hills, CA
92654-0837, 714-586-8811, http://www.halcyon.com/books/  It was originally
published in 1978.  It summarizes all work ever done to that date. 

*Copies*  You can write to Yale for a microfilm or paper copy.  
Write to:

Robert Babcock
c/o Beinecke Rare Book Library
1603a Yale Station
New Haven, CT  06520

	That costs about 40 US$.  However, there are legal restrictions on
its use.  They will make you sign a paper agreeing not to publish either
images of it *or data derived from it*!
	Father Theodore Petersen made a good hand copy of the manuscript
in the 30's and 40's.  Many of us have Xerox copies of it and use it for
our work (I do), since the letters are clear in Xerox and there are no
legal restrictions.  An effort to finish a definitive, accurate computer
transcription of the Voynich Manuscript based on Petersen's copy is under
way (see the EVMT project home page listed above).  Other, less restricted
copies are also available.  Ask list members (find out about the E-mailing
list on the Web pages). 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 10:17:06 1997
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Rob Richmond asked:

> Please send me those Occitan Web sites - or post them to the list.

Here:

http://www.mygale.org/09/simorre/oc/presoc.htm

This also points to other sites.
If you replace presoc.htm by evol.htm you get straight to the
dialects (and more).

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 08:29:04 1997
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The URL for the historical precedents should be

http://www.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/precednt.txt

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 10:35:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:12:04 +0000
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Hi,
Probably you already know of that claim of the "Bible Code", There is 
a thread going in sci.cryptology and another in sci.skeptic.

If interested in how text can be massaged to get whatever you may 
want have a look:

http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Religions/Numerics/

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 12:26:05 1997
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:22:18 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> Probably you already know of that claim of the "Bible Code", There is
> a thread going in sci.cryptology and another in sci.skeptic.

	Obviously another Newbold.  ;-)

	If you find such things amusing, you might enjoy

ET Corn Gods Language and Game
http://www.etcorngods.com/index.html

	(Although they know they're joking), and there's always -

http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/

	Fully unhinged, as Jacques said...

> If interested in how text can be massaged to get whatever you may
> want have a look:
> 
> http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Religions/Numerics/

	This actually looks as though it might be relevant to us.  We've always 
wanted a way to prove whether something is gibberish or not.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 16:11:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:00:22 -0700
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Clay Holden <cholden@netcom.com>
Subject: Bibliotheca Philosophica Hermetica in danger
Status: OR

I am forwarding this to the Voynich list as it may be of interest and
concern to many of you here.


---------- Begin Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 [...]
From: w.j.hanegraaff <hanegraf@EXT.JUSSIEU.FR>
To: [...]
Subject: Crisis Bibliotheca Philosophica Hermetica

[ ... ]

Dear friends and colleagues,

Some of you will probably already have received a message from the Ritman
library, but for those of you who have not, I would like to pass on the
following information.

Last week, the Dutch ING Bank has publicly announced its plans to sell by
auction the complete collection of the Bibliotheca Philosophica Hermetica
(Amsterdam). This in spite of the fact that the Dutch Government had earlier
put the collection on the list of protected Dutch cultural property. ING
claims that the law does not in fact permit the government to prevent them
from selling the library.

Most of you are aware of the backgrounds to the present situation, which I
will nevertheless summarize briefly. The B.P.H. was founded by the Dutch
businessman J.R. Ritman, and is now the world's most valuable collection of
textual materials pertaining to hermetic and related traditions. It contains
a unique collection of primary sources (manuscripts, incunabels etc.) and
secondary literature. Nowhere else in the world is it possible for scholars
to have immediate access, in one single library, to all the basic sources of
hermeticism --especially from the 16th-18th century-- and related
traditions of "western esotericism".
A couple of years ago, a conflict occurred between Mr. Ritman and his bank
(ING), as a result of which the latter took legal possession of the library.
In spite of energetic intervention by the Dutch government, long
negotiations have not been successful in altering ING's decision to sell it.
The situation is now critical. If the collection is sold, this will mean the
dispersion of the world's best research library for the study of 16th-18th
century hermeticism. The academic study of western esotericism will thereby
suffer an irretrievable loss with highly negative consequences for the
future of the discipline.

It will be essential that the international community of scholars interested
in the study of hermetic and related traditions will express its firm
protest against the plans of ING. If the B.P.H. receives a sufficient number
of letters of support, explaining that the selling of the B.P.H. means an
unacceptable loss to international scholarship, this may help them in their
struggle to prevent the worst.

Letters should be addressed to:

Bibliotheca Philosophica Hermetica
Bloemgracht 19
NL 1016 KB Amsterdam
The Netherlands

Or faxed to:  +20 6200973
The B.P.H. has no e-mail.

Please keep in mind that, in order to be effective, it is the unique
*scholarly* (as well as cultural) value of the Ritman collection which will
need to be stressed. Apart from letters of support, any other suggestions
for initiatives that might be helpful will obviously be welcome.

Finally: please feel free to CIRCULATE the present message to any other
person or scholarly network which may be interested in the preservation of
the B.P.H.

Wouter Hanegraaff


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 20:32:06 1997
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Message-ID: <33A87CDD.7576F395@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:27:11 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: some herbal pics
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Status: ORf

I stumbled across a few herbals on the net that aren't quite as strange as
the VMs, but close enough...

http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/vmherbal/graphimm.htm

    I have been wondering some more about colour in the VMs and after
comparing these herbals with the only colour ones I've seen from the VMs I
am inclined to think that colour would make the job of comparing the
herbals with other references a lot easier. Some of these plants have the
same red roots as the one on page 34 in the VMs. Since I've started
thinking in colour, the light and dark Zodiac signs have lost some of their
mystical meaning to me - what could a blue or green Taurus mean?
                                                        John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 23:20:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:03:05 -0500
To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: some herbal pics
Cc: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Status: OR

At 08:27 PM 6/18/97 -0400, John & Sue Grove wrote:
>I stumbled across a few herbals on the net that aren't quite as strange as
>the VMs, but close enough...
>
>http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/vmherbal/graphimm.htm

	These look like Toresella's alchemical herbals, although he doesn't have
this one.  He does have two images of herba luccia maggiore, while the
Vermont Ms has herba luccia terza.  The herba luccia maggiore images in
Toresella both have a fish, pike (luccio), as the root, while the Vermont
Ms has a human head as the root!  There's a rather clear depiction of
laxative action for the plant at the bottom of this folio!  :-)  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 18 22:44:02 1997
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	id AA25258; Thu, 19 Jun 97 12:39:49 EST
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 12:39:48 EST
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: "Son of Glotto" is coming along... sneak preview
Status: OR

But it is not coming along as I expected, not at all. Indeed, 
much of the things I had to build so far for "Son of Glotto"
will be useful for "Son of Monkey" (which I might call "Kong
Monkey". I give you three guesses why. Remote hint: I was 
born in Normandy of Norman parents). They will also be useful
for the measure of chaos that I was mulling about on this list
several months ago. I did not mean it so, it just turned out so.
Now, for a sample, I have taken Genesis out of the King James
Bibles, taken out everything that was a digit, and replaced
all punctuation by spaces. In this run I have looked only at
the 200 most frequent words. Here is the distribution of the
first 12, from "A" to "ARE", with a few interspread comments.

#1 66 283 / 341 A
  Never maind what those figures means. The word here is "A",
  and it is word #1 in alphabetical order in the dictionary.
  In what follows there are 10 pairs of numbers per line in the
  format N .I  in which N is the number of times word #I occurred
  in the environment of "A" as defined. Here, I defined it as
  the word immediately bfore. So, for instance, 1 .2 means that
  word #2 (ABRAHAM, below) occurred only 1 time before "A".
  Now go right to the end, and have a look at word #11, "AND",
  and then at my comments.
  1 .2  1 .3  1 .8  2 .9  21 .11  4 .14  4 .15  1 .16  13 .18  15 .19
  2 .22  5 .23  1 .25  3 .28  1 .29  4 .31  4 .32  1 .35  2 .50  2 .58
  15 .65  2 .66  1 .67  1 .68  2 .75  2 .76  3 .79  1 .80  10 .84  1 .89
  15 .90  2 .91  13 .92  2 .95  4 .96  1 .104  8 .109  3 .110  1 .111  4 .114
  4 .122  18 .124  1 .126  1 .129  2 .136  1 .140  1 .142  1 .146  2 .149  2
.151
  9 .158  9 .161  3 .163  3 .165  2 .174  6 .176  4 .178  2 .179  2 .180  6 .181
  14 .182  3 .189  5 .195  1 .196  1 .198  1 .199
#2 36 121 / 134 ABRAHAM
  1 .2  1 .6  1 .9  45 .11  1 .18  1 .19  1 .24  1 .31  1 .33  1 .43
  1 .62  2 .68  1 .69  1 .75  1 .84  1 .90  1 .93  5 .112  1 .123  13 .124
  1 .140  1 .141  1 .147  2 .154  1 .155  2 .159  2 .164  1 .170  1 .174  1 .175
  18 .178  1 .180  2 .182  1 .191  4 .192  1 .195
#3 22 52 / 59 ABRAM
  1 .5  16 .11  1 .18  1 .19  2 .22  1 .31  2 .33  1 .108  1 .109  1 .122
  2 .124  1 .154  1 .155  1 .164  1 .165  2 .174  1 .175  1 .176  8 .178  1 .180
  3 .191  3 .195
#4 15 22 / 32 ACCORDING
  1 .11  2 .19  1 .31  1 .39  2 .45  1 .48  1 .49  1 .57  1 .62  1 .70
  3 .84  3 .111  1 .121  1 .127  2 .161
#5 27 74 / 110 AFTER
  1 .3  1 .8  5 .11  1 .25  1 .33  3 .36  1 .37  1 .38  1 .48  7 .54
  1 .62  1 .72  1 .76  1 .84  16 .106  1 .121  1 .127  7 .131  1 .141  2 .143
  10 .145  1 .146  1 .163  5 .179  1 .181  1 .188  1 .197
#6 21 31 / 45 AGAIN
  1 .11  3 .30  3 .39  1 .62  3 .71  1 .83  1 .88  2 .95  1 .96  2 .122
  1 .140  1 .153  1 .155  2 .161  1 .163  1 .164  1 .179  1 .193  1 .194  2 .198
  1 .199
#7 49 202 / 250 ALL
  62 .11  1 .12  3 .17  1 .18  2 .21  1 .32  1 .33  1 .35  1 .43  1 .55
  1 .58  8 .65  4 .68  1 .69  1 .70  1 .76  1 .79  4 .84  12 .90  1 .93
  1 .95  3 .96  1 .100  1 .103  1 .109  1 .111  1 .114  36 .124  8 .130  1 .144
  1 .145  1 .150  6 .151  1 .159  1 .161  1 .163  1 .164  1 .165  5 .174  1 .175
  1 .176  4 .178  4 .179  3 .180  1 .181  2 .189  1 .191  4 .195  1 .199
#8 35 68 / 86 ALSO
  12 .11  1 .18  2 .23  1 .27  1 .37  1 .39  1 .46  2 .54  2 .69  2 .78
  6 .80  2 .84  1 .86  3 .88  1 .90  1 .102  1 .105  1 .107  1 .108  1 .113
  3 .114  2 .120  1 .123  1 .125  1 .145  2 .153  3 .155  2 .158  1 .159  1 .169
  2 .170  2 .171  1 .186  1 .193  2 .194
#9 6 36 / 45 AM
  1 .12  1 .65  30 .88  1 .122  1 .140  2 .192
#10 26 56 / 76 AN
  1 .12  1 .15  3 .19  1 .32  1 .54  1 .62  8 .65  1 .67  1 .75  1 .80
  2 .84  2 .90  3 .92  7 .106  3 .109  1 .111  1 .114  1 .123  1 .133  1 .161
  5 .165  1 .176  6 .182  1 .185  1 .189  1 .195
#11 144 1906 / 3678 AND
  21 .2  7 .3  1 .5  16 .6  1 .7  14 .8  2 .9  9 .13  1 .14  7 .17
  3 .19  1 .21  3 .24  25 .27  27 .29  1 .33  7 .34  21 .35  23 .36  9 .37
  14 .38  9 .39  5 .40  7 .41  26 .42  23 .43  14 .44  1 .45  13 .46  21 .47
  3 .48  4 .49  4 .50  9 .51  1 .53  62 .54  16 .55  30 .56  8 .57  1 .58
  18 .60  10 .61  46 .62  15 .63  5 .64  4 .66  1 .67  10 .71  16 .72  17 .73
  7 .74  6 .75  29 .76  1 .77  1 .78  1 .79  10 .80  1 .81  18 .82  36 .83
  117 .84  1 .85  37 .86  29 .87  10 .88  6 .90  1 .92  14 .93  5 .94  30 .95
  19 .96  15 .97  4 .98  6 .100  21 .101  6 .102  1 .103  9 .105  25 .107  4
.108
  5 .109  19 .111  5 .112  88 .114  7 .115  3 .116  6 .117  4 .119  16 .120
7 .121
  13 .122  3 .123  3 .124  16 .125  2 .126  4 .127  7 .129  8 .132  21 .133
14 .134
  11 .137  6 .138  8 .139  4 .140  3 .141  2 .142  2 .143  2 .144  6 .145  5
.146
  7 .147  10 .148  1 .149  2 .150  9 .154  53 .155  36 .156  69 .161  58
.163  18 .165
  1 .166  2 .167  4 .168  6 .169  2 .170  19 .171  1 .172  1 .174  2 .176  3
.177
  1 .178  13 .179  1 .180  23 .181  13 .183  4 .184  9 .185  8 .186  10 .187
8 .188
  43 .193  3 .196  58 .197  26 .199
#12 24 99 / 120 ARE
  2 .27  1 .35  2 .36  2 .37  1 .42  1 .44  1 .56  1 .62  1 .76  1 .79
  1 .86  1 .101  2 .115  3 .148  1 .154  7 .159  1 .163  2 .165  1 .166  45 .167
  4 .168  7 .186  3 .192  8 .196

My comments on "AND". "AND" is a very special word in the Old Testament, quite
unlike English "AND", as it mostly translates literally the "consecutive vav"
of Hebrew. When an action follows another logically, you start the sentence
with "AND" prefixed to the verb, and you put the verb in a tense
which here means the past, but normally means the future. So that the "AND"
of the KJV is very often a sentence delimiter. See how in this short sample
"AND" is preceded by the greatest variety of words? That is a sign that 
occurrence or non-occurrence of "AND" does not depend (much) on the word before.

Do not worry, the above table is only an intermediate stage in "Son of Glotto".
I had at first had my program save that stuff in binary files, and then I
realized that I could make it (almost) human-readable with very little
loss in computing time. In fact, the whole process is incredibly fast
on this aging 486DX2/66 of mine. Stay tuned for developments, and my
apologies for boring you with this, but it's a bit lonely here sweating
over this software package.



From reeds Thu Jun 19 14:36:20 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9706191436.ZM674@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:36:20 -0400
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: (Fwd) some herbal pics
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

I forwarded John Grove's recent Vermont MS 2 note to my favorite expert
on herbals.  This is her reponse:

Jim

I took a look at the herbal images from the Vermont Ms 2 on Ynez O'Neill's
IMMI web page.  I don't think you guys can learn much from them  that will
be of use to Voynich studies, though. The Vermont ms plant pictures are
pretty standard for the period in their stylization and symmetry--coupled
with the name labels in the text, it's possible to give tentative
identifications.The Vermont human/serpent/angel/demon pictures are unusual
in the relative complexity of their composition and 3-dimensionality (and
maybe numbers). The Voynich plant pictures, as I've said before, strike me
as largely imagined plants.

The range of colors in the Vermont images seems to be pretty limited and
conventional (not to mention hard to gauge on the screen)--again, I don't
think that agreement  of colors in some particular plant part can be
regarded as clinching or even important evidence. (Pliny's condemnation of
plant pictureswas right to single out color as particularly  problematic.)
Lots of plants have red roots. Lots of artists like the color red.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun 22 21:05:04 1997
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Message-ID: <33ADCB95.9F2314E2@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:04:23 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: (Fwd) some herbal pics
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Status: OR

Jim Reeds wrote:

> I forwarded John Grove's recent Vermont MS 2 note to my favorite
> expert...

> The range of colors in the Vermont images seems to be pretty limited
> and
> conventional (not to mention hard to gauge on the screen)--again, I
> don't
> think that agreement  of colors in some particular plant part can be
> regarded as clinching or even important evidence. (Pliny's
> condemnation of
> plant pictureswas right to single out color as particularly
> problematic.)
> Lots of plants have red roots. Lots of artists like the color red.
>
        Agreed, colour does not necessarily support identification of a
particular plant... My only point was that seeing the whole manuscript in
black and white can infer a meaning that might not necessarily exist... ie.
the dark and light aspects of the zodiacs. The herbal pictures only brought
this to light for me. I found the red roots of page 34 to be light in the
photocopy, while the two shades of green in the leaves were both black.
When I stumbled across the Vermont Herbals, I wondered if the variety of
colours used were common to all of these manuscripts. I have no idea what
colours beyond the ones on page 34 are used in the Voynich.  Your expert on
Herbals stated..."The range of colors in the Vermont images seems to be
pretty limited and conventional " ... I take it that means the Voynich uses
a wider and unconventional set of colours?  Apart from the fact that all
the plants in the VMs are stranger than fiction, I think some similarities
between a few of the varieties does exist.. perhaps these would be more
evident in colour - or then again they could be more problematic... but
unless someone has the time/interest (and the colour pictures - this being
the more difficult aspect) to run what could be a useless task to the
ground, we may never know if the colour images would make a difference or
not.

    Before I ramble on to much longer, I'll just confess that I was
influenced by the Dark and Light Zodiac signs into thinking Good and Evil
and that sort of stuff... but if these things are red and green, blue and
yellow or whatever... the Dark and Light insinuation fades.

                    Have a Good Day (Ie. Light 8-))
                                    John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun 22 22:47:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:42:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: (Fwd) some herbal pics
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On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, John & Sue Grove wrote:

>         Agreed, colour does not necessarily support identification of a
> particular plant... My only point was that seeing the whole manuscript in
> black and white can infer a meaning that might not necessarily exist... ie.

	We talked for a while about a CD-ROM publication of Petersen.
That could give us color images.  The talks fell apart because we couldn't
agree on how to divide the work.  

	I think they are now companies that will burn CD-ROMs for you,
although I don't know the details.  Thus, this undertaking might now be
easier.

	Also, I wonder whether it wouldn't be worth approaching Yale about
a CD-ROM publication of the VMs.  We might be able to do it at our cost,
so there would be no financial risk for them.  There could be digital
signatures in the images, if they're worried about unauthorized copies.  

	Any thoughts, anyone?

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 00:44:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:47:53 -0400
From: Luis Vlez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve>
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Dear Jacques,

Thanks for making public to the list your translation of Sukotin's
article. 

Luis Velez
from Caracas

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 03:38:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:32:39 +0200
Subject: Re: (Fwd) some herbal pics
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        Hello John,

you wrote:

> Apart from the fact that all the plants in the VMs are
> stranger than fiction, I think some similarities between a
> few of the varieties does exist.. perhaps these would be
> more evident in colour -

You may not have meant that litterally, but just in case,
I'd like to point out that not all plants are strange or
weird. Some are in fact exactly like normal known plants.
Just a few examples:
f6v looks exactly like a Wunderbaum (Ricinus Communis).
  (I found on the web that this is called the castor bean.
  The images I have seen there are different from the
  live plants I have seen in Europe. The latter have more
  pointed leaves, just like the VMs picture. Also leaves
  may have seven or eight points. The VMs always has 7.)
f16r is just like hemp/cannabis
Of course we still can't know for sure that these are
what the 'artist' intended to draw.

When some plants are weird, this is most usually because
they are strange compositions of otherwise normal, existing
components, as far as  I have been able to see. I
couldn't say that this is true for all drawings, but
certainly for many of them.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 04:08:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 22 Jun 97 at 22:42, Dennis wrote:

> 	We talked for a while about a CD-ROM publication of Petersen.
> That could give us color images.  The talks fell apart because we couldn't
> agree on how to divide the work.  

I thought that the talks fell apart because the amount of space to 
scan so many pages at a resolution that would keep all the colour 
information was too large. And it was about colour images of the 
Petersen copies, not the MS itself.

> 	Also, I wonder whether it wouldn't be worth approaching Yale about
> a CD-ROM publication of the VMs.  We might be able to do it at our cost,
> so there would be no financial risk for them.  There could be digital
> signatures in the images, if they're worried about unauthorized copies.

It is very clear that Yale does not want anything of this sort, and 
if they do, it would be for a (high) price (unfortunately).
The  cost of a CD burning is going down all the time (about 3 pounds 
per CD-R disk), but the cost is to:

1. pay Yale for the right of doing so
2. pay a photographer to go there and do it
3. pay of the photo materials.
4. pay for the printing and shipping of the CD.

Any bored millionaires in the list? :-)

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 05:08:03 1997
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Subject: Re: (Fwd) some herbal pics
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Dennis (>>) and Gabriel (>) wrote:

>> We talked for a while about a CD-ROM publication of Petersen.
>> That could give us color images.

> I thought that the talks fell apart because the amount of
> space to scan so many pages at a resolution that would keep
> all the colour information was too large.

It should fit, as a CD-ROM would offer about 2MB per page.

> And it was aboutcolour images of the Petersen copies, not
> the MS itself.

Correct. The colours would be of his pencils (red boxes around
4O-, green circles around SOE). It would then allow image
processing S/W to pick up the Voynich text from between
the annotations.

>>   Also, I wonder whether it wouldn't be worth approaching
>> Yale about a CD-ROM publication of the VMs.  We might be
>> able to do it at our cost, so there would be no financial
>> risk for them.  There could be digital signatures in the
>> images, if they're worried about unauthorized copies.

> It is very clear that Yale does not want anything of this
> sort.....

This again seems correct, but we don't know exactly what
is their problem. Perhaps they just do not want any hassle,
rather than being very protective of their material. It
could make a difference. It might be possible to arrange
something if:
1) they are confronted with a very clear (direct) proposal.
2) it does not involve endless correspondence (where two
   letters to be written by them might already be over
   the limit)

> .... and if they do, it would be for a (high) price
> (unfortunately).
> 1. pay Yale for the right of doing so

Perhaps not prohibitive.  I've no idea really. The Ukrainians
were allowed to video it and I am sure they were no
millionaires. They might not even bother about this too
much if they see that it would reduce the amount of our
annoying and silly requests.

> 2. pay a photographer to go there and do it

I guess the major cost component. If we get 15 candidates
at $100 (or Euros :-) ) would that do it? Would we trust
the Yale photographic service department or whatever it's
called to do it? If one of us could do it he could get a
free copy of the CD and the trip paid and we'd only have to
pay Yale for supervision.

> 3. pay of the photo materials.
> 4. pay for the printing and shipping of the CD.

This is probably minor

> Any bored millionaires in the list? :-)

I qualify for neither :-)

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 08:44:04 1997
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Subject: Loads of herbal pics
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Dear all,

some very illustrative pictures of the castor oil plant
(Ricinus communis) may be seen via:
http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/imaxxeup.htm
especially the top one allows a good comparison
with the VMs drawing on f6v.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 10:47:03 1997
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         From Denis Mardle        23 June 1997

 <<<
	Also, I wonder whether it wouldn't be worth approaching Yale about
a CD-ROM publication of the VMs.  We might be able to do it at our cost,
so there would be no financial risk for them.  There could be digital
signatures in the images, if they're worried about unauthorized copies.  

	Any thoughts, anyone?

Dennis
     >>>>>>>>>>

 This was the reply when I asked Ellen Cordes about colour CD-ROMs
Her message was on 21 April 1997

<<<<
  At this point there is no color version available although there
will be some pages available in color from our image lbrary that will be
available through the internet next year. There are no plans for CD ROMS of
any materials at the Beinecke.

>>>>>>>>>>

A good idea though.      I suggest further pressure might be helpful
( imagine the profit that might be made by selling them to all good
libraries )

  Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun 22 20:20:04 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: VMS Sukhotin's algorithms. Part 1.
Status: ORp

I was about to throw away a boxful of old 5.24-inch disks, and useless
curiosity impelled me to check what was on them. Some were unreadable
to MS-DOS, which could have meant that they were corrupt, or that they
were antiques from the days of my Kaypro II. And they were. One held
a number of files suh*.*, which turned out to contain commented
translations of most of Sukhotin's articles. I had completely forgotten
that I had set about translating his works and done so much! When
did I move from a Kaypro II to an NEC APC III? It must have been
about 14 years ago. Here is the first file, original typing mistakes
included.



                 DECIPHERMENT ALGORITHMS
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
           translated and adapted by Jacques Guy

"Our knowledge of language X" is twofold.

It is the knowledge we use to translate the signs of X into
their respective referents in the physical and ideal worlds.

It is also the knowledge we use to identify some properties of
the signs of X without resorting to their referents. It is
for instance the knowledge of English by which, presented
with the sentence "I was charded by its unflemming thurn",
we identify "charded" as the past participle of "to chard",
"unflemming" as the opposite of "flemming", itself derived
from "to flem", and "thurn" as a substantive. It is also
the knowledge by which we recognize three syllables and
ten letters in "unflemming". In general terms, it is the
knowledge by which the phenomena of X are identified.

Our knowledge of language X in either acceptation, however,
is useless for dealing with language Y, unless X and Y have
at least some features in common. Thus a knowledge of Dutch is
useful to understand Hawaiian only insofar as that they
have some, if few, features in common: both use the Roman
alphabet, and common letters are pronounced rather alike.
On the other hand, a knowledge of English is utterly useless
for Chinese: armed with it we can tell what "goes on" in
an English sentence, but nothing in a Chinese sentence, not
even where words end and start (there are no spaces to
indicate breaks between words), not even if it is language
at all.

An algorithm which identifies a linguistic phenomenon  provides
a convenient definition of that phenomenon in the general form:

    "Phenomenon P is the one identified by algorithm A when
    applied to any text in any language".

We shall call such an algorithm a "decipherment algorithm".

Definitions of linguistic phenomena by their decipherment algorithms
have very desirable properties:

1) the definitions, valid for all languages, are UNIVERSAL,

2) being algorithms, they are PRECISE,

3) finally, they are EFFICACIOUS, for they allow those phenomena
   to be recognized without fail if they occur in any particular
   language.

The importance of decipherment algorithms for linguistic
theory, then, can hardly be overemphasized -- if they exist.

If decipherment algorithms do exist, some of their properties can be
inferred:

If an algorithm B needs information produced by another algorithm A,
it is dependent upon A, and the phenomenon P(B) which it defines cannot
be identified until the phenomenon P(A) defined by A is identified.

For a set of decipherment algorithms to be efficacious, its elements
must be efficacious.

If an algorithm A depends for all its information upon another
algorithm B, which in turn needs all its information from A,
then the phenomena which they define cannot be identified.
Therefore A and B are not efficacious and must be rejected.

For a set of decipherment algorithms to be efficacious,
it must be at least effective, and therefore finite.

Therefore there must exist at least one algorithm in the set
which needs no input from any another.

One can imagine the following hierarchy of decipherment
algorithms in an efficacious set applying to the written
word:

1)   an algorithm to identify the individual symbols
     on the printed page,

2)   an algorithm to classify those symbols, for
     instance, grouping all occurrences of 'a' in
     the same category, regardless of their position
     in the text, and non-distinctive variations
     (e.g. the fonts used),

3)   an algorithm to identify the boundaries of
     the words,

4)   an algorithm to classify those words into
     grammatical categories,

5)   an algorithm to parse the text on the basis
     of the grammatical categories to which its words
     belong,

and so on.

Although the feasibility of algorithm (1) cannot be doubted,
none has been proposed to date.

The feasibility of algorithms (3) to (5), on the other hand,
can be doubted, and this is why some algorithms will be elaborated
and discussed here, which should go some way towards dispelling
doubts about the feasibility of high-order decipherment algorithms.


DISTINCTIVE FEATURES

It has been seen that the definition of a linguistic phenomenon
and the decipherment algorithm by which it is identified are one
and the same.

The list of the distinctive features of a linguistic phenomenon
(that is, the properties of this phenomenon which enable us to
identify its occurrences in a text) is also a definition of this
phenomenon. But whereas the decipherment algorithm that identifies
a given phenomenon is not necessarily unique, the list of its
distinctive features is. In this respect, a definition of a linguistic
phenomenon consisting of the list of its distinctive features is
more general than one consisting of its decipherment algorithm
(or one of its decipherment algorithms).  Lists of distinctive
features, however, generally do not have the desirable properties
of decipherment algorithms, least of all efficacy.

There are two kinds of distinctive features: text-dependent
and text-independent.


THE SET OF ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS

A list of text-independent features specifies a set of possible
interpretations of a text, ANY text. Those possible interpretations
constitute the set of ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS to the problem
of understanding the text.

Text-independent features are therefore definable without
computation on any text.


THE OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

How well each of those acceptable solutions fits any particular text
is determined by properties of this text, that is, by text-dependent
features. "How well" is then an objective function on the set
of acceptable solutions.

The set of acceptable solutions and the objective function
must be defined so that the phenomenon which they identify
should correspond to an element of the set of acceptable
solutions for which the objective function is minimum or
maximum. The objective function is computed from the text
analyzed.

Definitions of linguistic phenomena by distinctive features
therefore, at this stage, comprise two parts:

   1) a set of acceptable solutions
   2) an objective function.

The two parts must provide enough information for devising
a procedure which identifies the acceptable solution(s) for
which the objective functions reache an extreme. This
identification procedure is the decipherment algorithm
which constitutes the third part of the definition of
the phenomenon.



EQUIVALENCE AND CORRECTNESS: MATHEMATICAL VS LINGUISTIC

Given a set of acceptable solutions and an objective function,
a large number of algorithms may be devised which find an
acceptable solution for which the objective function reaches
an extreme. Such algorithms are MATHEMATICALLY EQUIVALENT.

Two objective functions that reach the same extreme for
the same element of a given set of acceptable solutions
are LINGUISTICALLY EQUIVALENT.

A definition of a linguistic phenomenon is MATHEMATICALLY
CORRECT if its decipherment algorithm yields the absolute
extreme for its objective function calculated for its set
of acceptable solutions.

A definition of a linguistic phenomenon is LINGUISTICALLY
CORRECT if its set of acceptable solutions and its objective
function are such that the (intuitively) right phenomenon is
effectively identified.

Those distinctions provide a basis of collaboration between
mathematicians and linguists.

It must be emphasized that almost all the algorithms to which
we have had access are mathematically incorrect: they cannot
be garanteed to find the extremes of objective functions.

The results obtained are not linguistically perfect, which
should be expected given the mathematical imperfection of
the algorithms, even though some are of surprisingly high
quality.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 01:11:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 15:06:45 EST
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Sukhotin. Part 2 (vowels and consonants)
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Nota: you need to select a fixed-width font, like for instance
Courier,  to view this properly.

  An Algorithm for Classifying Letters into Vowels and Consonants
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
           translated and adapted by Jacques Guy


("Eksperimental'noe vydelenie klassov bukv s pomoshchju
 elektronnoj vychislitel'noj mashiny" in Problemy strukturnoj
 lingvistiki, Moscow, 1962. French translation "Algorithme de
 classification des lettres en voyelles et consonnes", in
 T.A. Information, Paris, 1973)

We assume that the alphabet of a given language is
known, that is, that we are able to identify all occurrences
of a given letter and to establish their inventory. We also
assume that the text is written in a phonemic, not syllabic
or hieroglyphic, system. Remains to be found which letters
correspond to vowels, and which to consonants. The algorithm
works with sounds as well as with letters, so that the
dichotomy letter/sound is not relevant here. Therefore,
the definition of vowels and consonants will be valid
for both the spoken and the written language. Let us first
describe the set of acceptable solutions.


SET OF ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS

We consider vowels and consonants to be obtained by a partition
of the alphabet into two subsets: V constituted by vowels, and
C, constituted of consonants. The intersection of V and C is
empty, and their union is the alphabet A.

In some cases the intersection of V and C is not empty, since
a letter can be a vowel as well as a consonant. Thus in Latin
i and u are sometimes vowels, sometimes consonants, e.g.:

            iam que opus exegi

In such cases, the model proposed seems to contradict intuition.
Constructing a decipherment algorithm for the more general model
is far more difficult.

The information according to which vowels and consonants constitute
a partition of an alphabet is of course not enough. If an alphabet
consists of n letters, there are 2^n possible partitions of this
alphabet, in the case of the 24 letters of the Latin alphabet,
some 17 million solutions. Even so, such a definition does
restrict to a certain extent the notion of vowel and consonant.


OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

It is obvious that, in any text, it is less probable that a vowel
will appear after another vowel than after a consonant, as it is
less probable that a consonant will appear after another consonant
than after a vowel. On the contrary, it is quite frequent that
a vowel and a consonant should appear next to each other. If
we consider a random partition of an alphabet, it is unlikely
that it should have such a property. An arbitrarily chosen partition
loses this property the further it diverges from the correct
partition.

We shall describe the combinatorial properties of letters using
a square matrix the rows and columns of which correspond to the
letters of the alphabet. In the cell at the intersection of row x
and column y we shall record the number of times a pair formed
of letters x and y appears (without taking into account the
order of occurrence of these letters) in a given text.

Consider a given partition of an alphabet into two subsets.
Move all the rows and columns corresponding to vowels into
the "northwest cell" of the matrix and draw the limits
separating the vowels from the consonants. We have a matrix
of the type:

.                vowels     consonants
.             .-----------------------.
. vowels      |    1      |     2     |
.             |-----------+-----------|
. consonants  |    4      |     3     |
.             '-----------------------'

Cell #1 will contain the number of combinations of vowels together,
cell #3 the same information for consonants, and the number of
combinations between consonants and vowels will be found in
cells #2 and #4.

If the partition is close to the correct partition, then, according
to our hypothesis, the numbers in 1 and 3 will be small, and those
in 2 and 4 will be large. The worth of a partition can then be
estimated, for instance, from the sum of the numbers in 1 and 3
(the sum of the whole matrix being constant and equal to twice
the number of the letters of the whole text). The smaller the
sum of 1 and 3, the better the partition; the minimum of the
sum corresponds to the best partition.

The process of defining vowels and consonants is now complete:
we can say that vowels and consonants form subsets of a
partition of the alphabet into two classes such that the
number of homogeneous pairs in a given text is minimum.
Which subset corresponds to vowels and which to consonants
remains to be determined. Now, it is extremely probable that
the most frequent letter is a vowel; we can therefore believe
that the subset which contains this letter corresponds to vowels.

THE ALGORITHM

The simplest procedure using the distinctive features mentioned
is trivial. It is sufficient to calculate the matrix of
absolute frequencies of digraphs, to examine each possible solution
(that is, each partition into two subsets) and to calculate for
each the value of the objective function. The partition
which corresponds to the minimum of the function must then be
chosen as the best, and the procedure terminates (in the case
where there would be more than one partition corresponding to
this criterion, all are retaines). Unfortunately, such an
algorithm requires considerable calculations which are far
beyond the capacity of current computers. We propose therefore
a simple procedure which is practically equivalent to the
previous one. It is be reminded that this procedure cannot
guarantee that the minimum will be found in every case, but
the probability of erroe seems fairly low.

We shall represent this procedure in the form of a list
of instructions:

  (1) Build for a given text the matrix [f(x,y)] where f(x,y)
      represents the absolute frequency of the pairs consisting of
      x and y, whatever the order of occurrence of x and y.

  (2) Erase the numbers of the form f(x,x).
      (This operation is justified by the fact that the sum of
      these numbers is constant whatever the partition, and
      is therefore not relevant to the calculation of the
      minimum of the objective function. These numbers would
      even have a disturbing effect owing to certain properties
      of the procedure)

.                                          _n_
.                                          \
. (3) For each letter a, calculate the sum /  f(a,ax)
.                                          --
.                                          x=1

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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Sukhotin: PARTITIONING A TEXT INTO ITS MORPHEMES
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My comments are in  (*....*). This is a free translation. For instance
I replaced some of the Latin examples with English examples. Traduttore,
traditore, as they say. Traitor for traitor....


           PARTITIONING A TEXT INTO ITS MORPHEMES
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
           translation and comments by Jacques Guy


(* The algorithm effectively partitions a text into its
morph components, not morphemes, but it will turn out to be far
more powerful than that: it can be expected to do a morphological
analysis of an unknown text. "Morph" should be read for "morpheme"
whenever the latter occurs in the text *)

We will assume that the text to be partitioned has no spaces
to separate words and we also assume that the spelling used is
phonemic.

(* The first assumption makes the problem more general and
somewhat more difficult. There is no need for the other: the algorithm
will apply to strings of ideograms as well as to strings of phonemes
equally successfully *)

As in the case of the consonant/vowel algorithm, we start by
defining the set of acceptable solutions.


SET OF ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS

A partition of a text into disjoint subsets is an acceptable
solution.

A few definitions need to be introduced before going further.

A text is a mapping of an alphabet A (a set of letters) onto a
set of locations L. In other words, a text is a set of 2-tuples
of the type (a,p) where  a  is a letter and  p  its position in
the text.

A string Str(s,t) (where s and t are integer numbers and s>=0)
is a set of 2-tuples of the type {(a[i],p[j])} in which s<p[j]<=t.
A text T is a string Str(0,p), p being its length.

(* The notation is somewhat unclear; a[i] is presumably the ith letter of
the alphabet, p[j] the position in T of the jth letter of Str(s,t).
That definition of a string allows for disconnected strings (eg.
"dfton" is a string of the text "definition": {('d',1),('f',3),
('t',7),('o',9),('n',10)} ). Whether Suhotin actually intended it
to be so is unclear. The definition of a text as a string
Str(0,n) of length n is counterintuitive; Str(1,n) would seem
more appropriate. It does allow for a null text Str(0,0),
yet there is no point is partitioning a null text *)

A partition P of a text Str(0,n) is a set of strings {Str[i](s,t)}
such that to each string Str[i](s,t) for which t<>n one can associate
a string Str[i+1](t,v). Str(s,t) and Str(v,w) have a non-empty
intersection if s<v<t<w or if v<s<w<t. (Since strings are sets,
we can use the terminology of set theory and say that a text is
included in another or that two texts have a non-empty intersection.)

Suppose that some relation of similarity on the set of strings of
text T has been defined.

A morpheme m is the set which contains some string Str(s,t) of T
and all the all strings of T similar to Str(s,t).

Let M be the set of the morphemes of T. Given an arbitrary partition
P of T, some strings of m are also strings of P, and some are not.
We say that the strings of m which are also strings of P are true
occurrences of the morpheme m relatively to P, and those which are
not are false occurrences of m.

If the partition P does not contradict our intuition we can say that
those occurrences are true or false absolutely rather than relatively
to a partition.

For instance, "pint" is a true occurrence of the morpheme "pint"
in 1) below, but it is not in 2), and "ilk" is a false occurrence
of the morphem "ilk" in 1):

1) |A|pint|of|milk|
2) |Keep|in|touch|

A morpheme is true if there is at least one absolutely true
occurrence of it in T.

A definition of "acceptable solution" now emerges: an
acceptable solution consists of:

1) a partition of the text
2) a set of morphemes

Let us now turn to the problem of defining a similarity relation.

A possible definition is:

Two strings Str(s,t) and Str(v,w) are similar when one can
be obtained from the other by translation, that is, if
Str(s,t) = { (a[x],p[j]), (a[y],p[j+1]), ... } and
Str(v,w) = { (a[x],p[y+c]), (a[y],p[j+1+c), ... } in which
c is an integer constant.

A morpheme m is then conveniently represented by the string
Strm(0,n) of length n, similar to any string of m and consisting of
2-tuples (a[x],p[y]) in which 0<p[y]<=n. A morpheme m[i]
alphabetically contains another m[j] if the string Strm[i]
(* which is a set *) contains the string Strm[j].

Given the notion of similarity as introduced above, a partition
uniquely defines a set of morphemes and the set of acceptable
solutions is therefore the set of partitions.

Having defined the set of acceptable solutions, we still have to
find an adequate objective function, then an optimal solution.
But we are now confronted with an interesting phenomenon. Consider the
following examples:

T:   innumerabilis
P1:  |in|numer|abil|is|
P2:  |in|numerabil|is|
P3:  |in|numerabilis|

It is apparent that the three partition are all, in a way, "right";
P1 only seems finer than P2 and P2 finer than P3. Nor can this partition
of a longer text be considered wrong:

P: |innumerabilis|annorum|series|et|fuga|temporum|

This is all the more remarkable that the strings which compose P2,
P3, and P are linguistically meaningful objects: they are roots, words,
or more simply, combinations of morphemes which behave like
isolated morphemes. This is the reason why partition P, for instance,
is not merely an approximation of P1; it has its own significance
because the strings which it evidences are words. It is obvious
too that P is more meaningful than P4 below, even though
P4 is also composed of strings which are combinations of simple
morphemes:

P4: |innumer|abilisannor|umserie|set|fugatempor|um|

We obtain thus a model of morphological analysis consisting of a series
of coarser and coarser partitions, each one of which is right in its own
way, and can be considered to be the approximation of other, finer, ones.

We say that Pi is coarser than Pj if any string of Pj is included
in a string of Pi, but no string of Pj is included in a string of
Pi.

An acceptable solution, which is at the same time a morphological
analysis, is then a series of partitions P0, P1, ...
Pj, ....Pn, each one of which (P0 excepted) is finer than the
previous one.

Such a morphological analysis is conveniently represented by
a tree (similar to that of immediate constituent analysis), or
by bracketing, eg.:


.1)
.               .----------------.
.               |                |
.               |           .--------.
.               |           |        |
.               |       .------.     |
.               |       |      |     |
.             .--.   .-----. .----. .--.
.             |in|   |numer| |abil| |is|


2)            ((((in)))(((numer)(abil))((is))))


A morphological analysis is of course an operation more complex
than a partition. It corresponds, however, to a more simple definition
of a morpheme:

    A morpheme is a set of similar strings the intersection of
    which is empty.

It follows from this definition that any morphological analysis
includes the finest partition Pn, into isolated letters, since there
is no one-letter string which does not have a non-empty intersection
with another string. Likewise, it includes the coarsest partition P0,
which is the whole of the text.

This new definition of an acceptable solution does not entail a
particularly more complex recognition procedure.

Note, however, that the definition of similarity is clearly wanting.
It prevents the algorithm from coping with

1) Sandhi-type morphemic alternances, eg. silex/silicis
2) Infixation, eg. rumpo/ruptus
3) Internal flexion, eg. facio/feci
4) Stress shifts, eg. orno/ornare

This is nothing disastrous, however. The first point at least
(* sandhi-type morphemic alternances *) can be fixed with a finer
definition of similarity relation.

(* Probably not. It is difficult to conceive how a similarity
relation allowing for sandhi could be other than language-
specific.  But if we read "morph" instead of "morpheme", the
problem disappears: the algorithm partitions a text into its
morphs; another algorithm must be devised to group them into
morphemes *)

Before we turn to the objective function, we must generalize
some notions already mentioned and introduce new ones.

A string Str which is a member of a morpheme m is a true
occurrence of m if it is also a member of at least one
partition of the morphological analysis A (or in other
words this string is true for that particular analysis).
Consider now a partition of this string. This partition is
immediate if it consists of true occurrences the number of
which is minimum.


THE OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

Since the number of different possible morphological analyses of any
text of reasonable length is so large, the definition of morpheme
elaborated above is wanting. It lacks a criterion of quality.

A morpheme is set of similar strings which occur REPEATEDLY in
a text. Its members must then be, in some way, stable (this,
however, is only true of those strings which are true occurrences
of the morpheme).

Suppose a measure of stability defined. The value of any
given morphological analysis can then be estimated by the
sum of the stabilities of the morphemes identified in the
process. If the measure of stability is good, the higher the
sum, the better the analysis, with the best analysis
yielding a maximum sum.

Let us consider some possible measurements of stability:

1) The stability of a morpheme is equal to the absolute
   frequency of its true occurrences.
   A seemingly attractive definition because of its simplicity,
   but unsatisfactory for short strings of high-frequency letters,
   which may occur frequently by pure chance.

2) The difference between the expected relative frequency of the
   strings of a morpheme and the observed relative frequency of its
   true occurrences.
   (* No reason is given for not using this measurement. *)

3) A function based on the following properties of morphemes:
   a) the presence of a part of a true occurrence announces the
      the presence of the rest of the morpheme with a high
      degree of likelihood
   b) true occurrences of morphemes are likely to be found
      in very different environments.

  (* Point b) possibly inspired from Zelig Harris's  "From
   phoneme to morpheme" in Language, v.21 No.3, 1945 *)


Call the first property (a) internal stability, the second (b)
external stability.

Consider the internal stability of a string Str(0,6) = "passer"

Suppose that the immediate partition of this string is of the
form:

    (p)(a)(s)(s)(e)(r)

List all the possible partitions of this string into two
connected substrings:

P1 (p)|(a) (s) (s) (e) (r)
P2 (p) (a)|(s) (s) (e) (r)
P3 (p) (a) (s)|(s) (e) (r)
P4 (p) (a) (s) (s)|(e) (r)
P5 (p) (a) (s) (s) (e)|(r)

It is clear that wherever "passe" occurs in a Latin text,
"r" is likely to occur next, and that wherever "asser" is found,
"p" is likely to precede.

Represent the string "passer" onto which partition Pi has
been effected by Si,S'i in which S is its left part
and S'i its right part.

Let the degree of attraction of S'i by Si be measured by the
fraction f(Si,S'i)/f(Si) and that of Si by S'i by f(Si,S'i)/f(S'i),
f being here either the relative or the absolute frequency.

(* That is, the degree of attraction of the right part by the
left part is equal to the number of occurrences of left and
right parts together divided by the total number of occurrences
of the left part, with or without the right part *)

The highest degree of attraction is 1 and the lowest is 0.

Let the internal stability of the string be the mean attraction
of all its partitions and strings of length 1 (single letters)
have a stability of 0 by definition.

External stability can be estimated roughly on a binary scale:
complete stability and complete instability. Now, the absolute
frequency of a morpheme m represented by a string S which
alphabetically includes another, longer string S' itself
representing a morpheme m' cannot be greater than that of m'.
Hence, if m and m' occur with exactly the frequency in the text,
m' is, as it were, "immersed" in m. By definition, the external stability
of a morpheme is 0 if it is "immersed" in another, otherwise it is 1.

Let the stability of a morpheme be the product of
its internal and external stabilities, and the stability
of a morphological analysis the sum of the stabilities
of its morphemes.

(* It follows from those definitions that the stability of
the finest (single letters) is zero. This is intuitively
agreeable, for this partition is trivial *)


RECOGNITION PROCEDURE

The optimal morphological analysis of the text and the list of its
true morphemes are obtained simultaneously.

A list of all the morphemes of a text is a gross approximation of
the list of its true morphemes (it is much longer and contains
many morphemes which are mostly false occurrences). Call this
first approximation L0.

A better approximation, L1, is obtained by eliminating morphemes
of stability 0.

L1 is much shorter L0. Unfortunately at this stage L1 lacks true
morphemes of zero stability but re-entering them later is quite easy.
L1 is convenient, for it contains all the morphemes the frequency
of which is necessary to calculate the stability of any morpheme.

The algorithm consists of five steps.


STEP 1

  Build a list L2 of all the morphemes of absolute frequency
  greater than 1, with each entry in the list consisting
  of the string representing the morpheme, and of its absolute
  frequency.
  Since any morpheme with an absolute frequency of one has
  a stability of zero L2 is shorter than L0 and longer than
  L1 as far as morphemes with a stability of 0 and a frequency
  greater than 1 (* eg. one-letter words *) are concerned.

  L2 can be obtained by the following procedure:

  a) List the alphabet of the text, calculate the absolute
     frequency of each letter. Remove entry with a
     frequency of one. This list is the first fragment,
     or fragment of rank 1, of L2. Represent it by L2(1).

  b) Given a fragment of rank n, the fragment of rank n+1 is obtained
     as follows: build the strings of the form Str(0,n)+Str(n,n+1)
     in which Str(0,n) is a string of L2(n) and Str(n,n+1) a string
     of L2(1); n, transposed, moves to the right; calculate their
     frequencies and eliminate the strings with frequencies not greater
     than 1.

     The procedure terminates when we obtain L2(n) for which L2(n+1)
     is empty. The list L2 is of the sum of these fragments.

     (* In far simpler terms: given a text of length n, list
     all the substrings of it from length 1 to n which occur
     more than once *)

STEP 2

  Calculate the stability of each string of L2.

  (But remember that at this stage only strings of length 1 can
  be considered to constitute true occurrences of morphemes.)

STEP 3

  This  step is based on the assumption that all the
  occurrences of the morpheme with the highest stability
  (greater than zero) are true. Granted this assumption,
  no string which has a non-empty intersection with an
  occurrence of this maximum stability morpheme can be a
  true occurrence of a morpheme.

  Therefore, select the morpheme of L2 with the highest
  stability, and bracket its occurrences in the text
  (* thus carrying out morpheme recognition and
  morphological analysis concurrently *)

  The frequency of every morpheme of L2 with a
  non-empty intersection with N occurrences of the
  selected morpheme is reduced by N. Some false occurrences
  are thus discarded. When during this process the frequency
  of any given morpheme falls below 2 it is eliminated from
  the list.

  Since the status (true or false occurrence) and
  the frequency of strings varies during the procedure, the
  stability of the rest of the remaining morphemes is then
  calculated anew.

  The process is repeated until only morphemes with zero
  stabilities are left.

STEP 4
  We now have a partition of the text expressed by bracketing.
  This partition, however, does not yet represent a morphological
  analysis.

  But first a few definitions.

  A pair of brackets which contains no other brackets is of
  rank 1. A pair of bracket which contains other brackets,
  the highest rank of which is i-1, is therefore itself of
  rank i. A segment of text which is not between
  brackets of rank 1, does not contain brackets, and is
  between brackets of any rank not necessarily forming a
  pair, is considered to be between brackets of rank 0
  (not represented in the text). A segment between two
  brackets of rank i is a segment of rank i.
  A pair of brackets is AUTONOMOUS for rank r if the lowest rank
  of the brackets by which it is contained is r.

  Find the maximum bracket rank of the text. Call it r. Consider
  the text to be between (invisible) brackets of rank r+1.
  Enclose all brackets pairs autonomous for rank r+1 with
  new bracket pairs until the rank of the enclosing brackets
  is equal to r.

  Repeat for all segments of rank r down to 2.

  The morphological analysis -- represented by bracketing
  segments of the text -- is now complete.

STEP 5
  The segments which appeared in brackets for the first time
  at step 4 are true occurrences of zero-stability morphemes
  (eg. morphemes having only one string for member)
  and are added to L2.



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 01:23:17 1997
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	id AA22324; Mon, 23 Jun 97 15:17:33 EST
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 15:17:33 EST
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Sukhotin: ON SOME PROPERTIES OF INFORMATIVE TEXTS
Status: ORp

For us Voynichomaniacs, this is probably the most interesting
article. 



         ON SOME PROPERTIES OF INFORMATIVE TEXTS
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
               translated and adapted by Jacques Guy

Let us call INFORMATIVE texts meant to be deciphered.

Note that this concept is different from that of "meaning" proper,
for a text which carries a meaning is not necessarily meant to be
deciphered without a key. Consequently, meaningless and undecipherable
texts, by definition, cannot be informative.

Since encryption is relatively rare, a characteristic feature of texts
in a natural language will be their high degree of INFORMATIVENESS.
I shall not attempt to formalize this concept any further, as I only
wish to suggest directions for further research.

Take for instance  a problem very similar to the partitioning of a
text into its constituent morphemes. Imagine a text encoded using
n-tuples of integers, so that each letter corresponds to one n-tuple.
Suppose n known. The problem is: find the beginning of the n-tuples.

It is obvious that (supposing the text circular or its beginning and
end missing, so that the solution is not trivial) there are only
n classes of starting positions, since each starting point is
equivalent to the one obtained moving nm positions left or right
(m being an integer). Thus the set of acceptable solutions is
defined: it is the set of partitions of the text into n-tuples,
and this set has n elements.

How can the quality of such a partition be judged?

A random text can be considered to be a sequence of symbols produced
by randomly drawing symbols from a box. The probabilities of the
different symbols must be considered equal and so must be those of the
corresponding n-tuples (if they were not, there would be less reason
to consider the text to be completelty random). It seems obvious that an
informative text must differ considerably from a random text.
Several functions can be proposed to evaluate its degree of
randomness, for instance, the sum of the absolute deviations
from the mean probability, the sum of their squares, or the
first-order entropy of the text, or its infinite-order entropy.

Choosing between those functions is difficult, even though infinite-order
entropy seems best. At any rate, since they are probably all roughly
equivalent for the use to which we are about to put them, the simplest
one will be used here.

Let us encode the Roman alphabet into ternary 3-tuples, i.e.:
a=000, b=001, c=002, d=010, e=011, f=012, g=020, etc...

The short Latin text "Donec eris felix, multos numerabis amicos,
tempora si fuerint nubila, solus eris" becomes:

010111110011002011121022122012011101022210102201101200111122
110201102011121000001022122000102022002111122200011102112111
121000122022012201011121022110200110201001022101000122111101
20112201121022122

We have:

.           Number of 3-tuples occurring N times
.                   in partition

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	id AA22348; Mon, 23 Jun 97 15:24:59 EST
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 15:24:59 EST
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Enough Sukhotin for the moment...
Status: ORp

You probably have enough to keep you occupied for a while.


Meantime, for me, it's back to working on Son of Glotto.
It's funny you know... right now, Son of Glotto distinctly
resembles the Son of Monkey which I am planning to produce
some day. 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 19:26:21 1997
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	id AA27123; Tue, 24 Jun 97 09:18:39 EST
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 09:18:38 EST
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Sukhotin again: vowels and consonants
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Status: OR

Yes, again: some mail readers got confused by those lines
starting with a period (.), and ignored everything after.
I have replaced those line-initial dots with = signs.
(The purpose was to prevent leading spaces from being 
deleted). So here we go again.




  An Algorithm for Classifying Letters into Vowels and Consonants
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
           translated and adapted by Jacques Guy


("Eksperimental'noe vydelenie klassov bukv s pomoshchju
 elektronnoj vychislitel'noj mashiny" in Problemy strukturnoj
 lingvistiki, Moscow, 1962. French translation "Algorithme de
 classification des lettres en voyelles et consonnes", in
 T.A. Information, Paris, 1973)

We assume that the alphabet of a given language is
known, that is, that we are able to identify all occurrences
of a given letter and to establish their inventory. We also
assume that the text is written in a phonemic, not syllabic
or hieroglyphic, system. Remains to be found which letters
correspond to vowels, and which to consonants. The algorithm
works with sounds as well as with letters, so that the
dichotomy letter/sound is not relevant here. Therefore,
the definition of vowels and consonants will be valid
for both the spoken and the written language. Let us first
describe the set of acceptable solutions.


SET OF ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS

We consider vowels and consonants to be obtained by a partition
of the alphabet into two subsets: V constituted by vowels, and
C, constituted of consonants. The intersection of V and C is
empty, and their union is the alphabet A.

In some cases the intersection of V and C is not empty, since
a letter can be a vowel as well as a consonant. Thus in Latin
i and u are sometimes vowels, sometimes consonants, e.g.:

            iam que opus exegi

In such cases, the model proposed seems to contradict intuition.
Constructing a decipherment algorithm for the more general model
is far more difficult.

The information according to which vowels and consonants constitute
a partition of an alphabet is of course not enough. If an alphabet
consists of n letters, there are 2^n possible partitions of this
alphabet, in the case of the 24 letters of the Latin alphabet,
some 17 million solutions. Even so, such a definition does
restrict to a certain extent the notion of vowel and consonant.


OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

It is obvious that, in any text, it is less probable that a vowel
will appear after another vowel than after a consonant, as it is
less probable that a consonant will appear after another consonant
than after a vowel. On the contrary, it is quite frequent that
a vowel and a consonant should appear next to each other. If
we consider a random partition of an alphabet, it is unlikely
that it should have such a property. An arbitrarily chosen partition
loses this property the further it diverges from the correct
partition.

We shall describe the combinatorial properties of letters using
a square matrix the rows and columns of which correspond to the
letters of the alphabet. In the cell at the intersection of row x
and column y we shall record the number of times a pair formed
of letters x and y appears (without taking into account the
order of occurrence of these letters) in a given text.

Consider a given partition of an alphabet into two subsets.
Move all the rows and columns corresponding to vowels into
the "northwest cell" of the matrix and draw the limits
separating the vowels from the consonants. We have a matrix
of the type:

=                vowels     consonants
=             .-----------------------.
= vowels      |    1      |     2     |
=             |-----------+-----------|
= consonants  |    4      |     3     |
=             '-----------------------'

Cell #1 will contain the number of combinations of vowels together,
cell #3 the same information for consonants, and the number of
combinations between consonants and vowels will be found in
cells #2 and #4.

If the partition is close to the correct partition, then, according
to our hypothesis, the numbers in 1 and 3 will be small, and those
in 2 and 4 will be large. The worth of a partition can then be
estimated, for instance, from the sum of the numbers in 1 and 3
(the sum of the whole matrix being constant and equal to twice
the number of the letters of the whole text). The smaller the
sum of 1 and 3, the better the partition; the minimum of the
sum corresponds to the best partition.

The process of defining vowels and consonants is now complete:
we can say that vowels and consonants form subsets of a
partition of the alphabet into two classes such that the
number of homogeneous pairs in a given text is minimum.
Which subset corresponds to vowels and which to consonants
remains to be determined. Now, it is extremely probable that
the most frequent letter is a vowel; we can therefore believe
that the subset which contains this letter corresponds to vowels.

THE ALGORITHM

The simplest procedure using the distinctive features mentioned
is trivial. It is sufficient to calculate the matrix of
absolute frequencies of digraphs, to examine each possible solution
(that is, each partition into two subsets) and to calculate for
each the value of the objective function. The partition
which corresponds to the minimum of the function must then be
chosen as the best, and the procedure terminates (in the case
where there would be more than one partition corresponding to
this criterion, all are retaines). Unfortunately, such an
algorithm requires considerable calculations which are far
beyond the capacity of current computers. We propose therefore
a simple procedure which is practically equivalent to the
previous one. It is be reminded that this procedure cannot
guarantee that the minimum will be found in every case, but
the probability of erroe seems fairly low.

We shall represent this procedure in the form of a list
of instructions:

  (1) Build for a given text the matrix [f(x,y)] where f(x,y)
      represents the absolute frequency of the pairs consisting of
      x and y, whatever the order of occurrence of x and y.

  (2) Erase the numbers of the form f(x,x).
      (This operation is justified by the fact that the sum of
      these numbers is constant whatever the partition, and
      is therefore not relevant to the calculation of the
      minimum of the objective function. These numbers would
      even have a disturbing effect owing to certain properties
      of the procedure)

=                                          _n_
=                                          \
= (3) For each letter a, calculate the sum /  f(a,ax)
=                                          --
=                                          x=1
=
      in which n is the total number of letters in the alphabet
      and ax is the variable.

  (4) Place in the "northwest cell" of the matrix the row and the
      column corresponding to the letter a1 for which the sum is
      maximum, and separate them from the rest with a vertical
      and an horizontal border.

  (5) For each row b below the horizontal border, calculate the
=          __
=     sum  \  f(b,ay) in which ay corresponds to a column to the
=          /_
=           y
=                                                __
=     right of the vertical border, and the sum  \ f(b,ax) in
=                                                /_
=                                                 x

      which ax correspond to a column to its left. Subtract the
      latter from the former. Call their difference db.

  (6) If no difference db is positive go to (7), otherwise go to
      (8).

  (7) Last operation. The rows and columns which have been
      moved correspond to the first class (usually vowels),
      those which have not, to the second class (usually
      consonants).

  (8) Find the row for which db is positive and maximum,
      and move it above the horizontal border. Find the
      corresponding clumn and move it to the other side
      of the vertical border. Go to (5).

Let us see an example which illustrates this procedure.
Let us seek the vowels in a Latin text consisting of a
single word: SAGITTA. Note that it is not necessary to
know the limits of the words, nor, therefore, to be
able to decide where a text starts and ends. In this
example, we shall forget that we know where the
beginning and the end of the word SAGITTA are, and shall
consider it as if it were written circularly.

The matrix [f(x,y)] is:


=        s   a   g   i   t
=      .-------------------.
=  s   |   | 2 |   |   |   |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  a   | 2 |   | 1 |   | 1 |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  g   |   | 1 |   | 1 |   |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  i   |   |   | 1 |   |   |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  t   |   | 1 |   | 1 | 2 |
=      '-------------------'

After operation (2) we have:

=        s   a   g   i   t
=      .-------------------.
=  s   |   | 2 |   |   |   |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  a   | 2 |   | 1 |   | 1 |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  g   |   | 1 |   | 1 |   |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  i   |   |   | 1 |   | 1 |
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  t   |   | 1 |   | 1 |   |
=      '-------------------'

After operation (3):

=        s   a   g   i   t
=      .-------------------.
=  s   |   | 2 |   |   |   | 2
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  a   | 2 |   | 1 |   | 1 | 4
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  g   |   | 1 |   | 1 |   | 2
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  i   |   |   | 1 |   | 1 | 2
=      |---+---+---+---+---|
=  t   |   | 1 |   | 1 |   | 2
=      '-------------------'

After (4):

=        a   s   g   i   t
=      .-------------------.
=  a   |   ] 2 | 1 |   | 1 |
=      |===]===============|
=  s   | 2 ]   |   |   |   |
=      |---]---+---+---+---|
=  g   | 1 ]   |   | 1 |   |
=      |---]---+---+---+---|
=  i   |   ]   | 1 |   | 1 |
=      |---]---+---+---+---|
=  t   | 1 ]   |   | 1 |   |
=      '-------------------'

After (5):

=        a   s   g   i   t
=      .-------------------.
=  a   |   ] 2 | 1 |   | 1 |
=      |===]===============|
=  s   | 2 ]   |   |   |   | -2
=      |---]---+---+---+---|
=  g   | 1 ]   |   | 1 |   |  0
=      |---]---+---+---+---|
=  i   |   ]   | 1 |   | 1 |  2
=      |---]---+---+---+---|
=  t   | 1 ]   |   | 1 |   |  0
=      '-------------------'


(6) sends to (8). After (8), (5), and (6) we have:

=        a   i   s   g   t
=      .-------------------.
=  a   |   |   ] 2 | 1 | 1 |
=      |---+---]---+---+---|
=  i   |   |   ]   | 1 | 1 |
=      |=======]===========|
=  s   | 2 |   ]   |   |   | -2
=      |---+---]---+---+---|
=  g   | 1 | 1 ]   |   |   | -2
=      |---+---]---+---+---|
=  t   | 1 | 1 |   |   |   | -2
=      '-------------------'

(6) now sends to (7), and the procedure terminates. The result
obtained is: the first class contains A and I, the second S, G,
and T.

This algorithm was programmed for a BESM-2. The texts chosen for
the experiment contained 10,000 elements each. The results are
perfect for the Russian and Spanish texts. We give the results
obtained for French and English hereunder.

We shall examine in detail the results obtained for French and
English. As the matrices show, e,a,o,u,y, and k were classified
as vowels in the French text and all the other letters as
consonants. That the letter k was considered a vowel does not
constitute an important error, for it is a letter foreign to
French orthography. It occurred only six times, apparently in
abbreviations of foreign origin. The letter w, which did not
occur in the text, was classified as a consonant by the procedure;
from the point of the objective function, it should be considered
as having two values.

In the English text, the letters e,a,o,i,t,u,y were identified as
vowels, and the other letters as consonants. It is interesting that
t was incorrectly classified, probably because the combination th
following a consonant is extremely frequent, eg.: of the....
As such errors occur regularly, it is desirable to build algorithms
which correct the first, but do not change its results when they
are satisfactory, whilst improving them when they are not.


The algorithm which corrects the one described is based on the
following idea: if we have a string of five letters: x1, x2, x3,
x4, x5 and if x3 belongs to class 1, it is more probable that
the majority of [the remaining] letters x1, x2, x4, and x5
correspond to class 2 rather than to class 1. The situation in which
the members of the first are equal in numbrs to those of the
second is not considered here (even though this is precisely
the case in the basic algorithm). The rectification algorithm
was also programmed for computer. The results were satisfactory.

As a general rule, it seems that the rectification algorithm must
be designed so as to make the increase or decrease of the
objective function depend on a segment longer than that used
in the basic algorithm.

In conclusion, we would like to remark that the structures of
decipherment algorithms can be very similar and even tend to
be identical. Thus, if we give a list of simple morphemes (that
cannot be composed of smaller morphemes), and is we code a text using
the symbol representing those morphemes, we can analyze this text
using the consonant/vowel algorithm. We can expect from it a
classification of simple morphemes into notional morphemes (roots)
and auxiliary morphemes (such as, for instance, endings, articles,
prepositions, and conjunction).

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 19:26:04 1997
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             PARTITIONING A TEXT INTO ITS MORPHEMES
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
           translation and comments by Jacques Guy


(* The algorithm effectively partitions a text into its
morph components, not morphemes, but it will turn out to be far
more powerful than that: it can be expected to do a morphological
analysis of an unknown text. "Morph" should be read for "morpheme"
whenever the latter occurs in the text *)

We will assume that the text to be partitioned has no spaces
to separate words and we also assume that the spelling used is
phonemic.

(* The first assumption makes the problem more general and
somewhat more difficult. There is no need for the other: the algorithm
will apply to strings of ideograms as well as to strings of phonemes
equally successfully *)

As in the case of the consonant/vowel algorithm, we start by
defining the set of acceptable solutions.


SET OF ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS

A partition of a text into disjoint subsets is an acceptable
solution.

A few definitions need to be introduced before going further.

A text is a mapping of an alphabet A (a set of letters) onto a
set of locations L. In other words, a text is a set of 2-tuples
of the type (a,p) where  a  is a letter and  p  its position in
the text.

A string Str(s,t) (where s and t are integer numbers and s>=0)
is a set of 2-tuples of the type {(a[i],p[j])} in which s<p[j]<=t.
A text T is a string Str(0,p), p being its length.

(* The notation is somewhat unclear; a[i] is presumably the ith letter of
the alphabet, p[j] the position in T of the jth letter of Str(s,t).
That definition of a string allows for disconnected strings (eg.
"dfton" is a string of the text "definition": {('d',1),('f',3),
('t',7),('o',9),('n',10)} ). Whether Suhotin actually intended it
to be so is unclear. The definition of a text as a string
Str(0,n) of length n is counterintuitive; Str(1,n) would seem
more appropriate. It does allow for a null text Str(0,0),
yet there is no point is partitioning a null text *)

A partition P of a text Str(0,n) is a set of strings {Str[i](s,t)}
such that to each string Str[i](s,t) for which t<>n one can associate
a string Str[i+1](t,v). Str(s,t) and Str(v,w) have a non-empty
intersection if s<v<t<w or if v<s<w<t. (Since strings are sets,
we can use the terminology of set theory and say that a text is
included in another or that two texts have a non-empty intersection.)

Suppose that some relation of similarity on the set of strings of
text T has been defined.

A morpheme m is the set which contains some string Str(s,t) of T
and all the all strings of T similar to Str(s,t).

Let M be the set of the morphemes of T. Given an arbitrary partition
P of T, some strings of m are also strings of P, and some are not.
We say that the strings of m which are also strings of P are true
occurrences of the morpheme m relatively to P, and those which are
not are false occurrences of m.

If the partition P does not contradict our intuition we can say that
those occurrences are true or false absolutely rather than relatively
to a partition.

For instance, "pint" is a true occurrence of the morpheme "pint"
in 1) below, but it is not in 2), and "ilk" is a false occurrence
of the morphem "ilk" in 1):

1) |A|pint|of|milk|
2) |Keep|in|touch|

A morpheme is true if there is at least one absolutely true
occurrence of it in T.

A definition of "acceptable solution" now emerges: an
acceptable solution consists of:

1) a partition of the text
2) a set of morphemes

Let us now turn to the problem of defining a similarity relation.

A possible definition is:

Two strings Str(s,t) and Str(v,w) are similar when one can
be obtained from the other by translation, that is, if
Str(s,t) = { (a[x],p[j]), (a[y],p[j+1]), ... } and
Str(v,w) = { (a[x],p[y+c]), (a[y],p[j+1+c), ... } in which
c is an integer constant.

A morpheme m is then conveniently represented by the string
Strm(0,n) of length n, similar to any string of m and consisting of
2-tuples (a[x],p[y]) in which 0<p[y]<=n. A morpheme m[i]
alphabetically contains another m[j] if the string Strm[i]
(* which is a set *) contains the string Strm[j].

Given the notion of similarity as introduced above, a partition
uniquely defines a set of morphemes and the set of acceptable
solutions is therefore the set of partitions.

Having defined the set of acceptable solutions, we still have to
find an adequate objective function, then an optimal solution.
But we are now confronted with an interesting phenomenon. Consider the
following examples:

T:   innumerabilis
P1:  |in|numer|abil|is|
P2:  |in|numerabil|is|
P3:  |in|numerabilis|

It is apparent that the three partition are all, in a way, "right";
P1 only seems finer than P2 and P2 finer than P3. Nor can this partition
of a longer text be considered wrong:

P: |innumerabilis|annorum|series|et|fuga|temporum|

This is all the more remarkable that the strings which compose P2,
P3, and P are linguistically meaningful objects: they are roots, words,
or more simply, combinations of morphemes which behave like
isolated morphemes. This is the reason why partition P, for instance,
is not merely an approximation of P1; it has its own significance
because the strings which it evidences are words. It is obvious
too that P is more meaningful than P4 below, even though
P4 is also composed of strings which are combinations of simple
morphemes:

P4: |innumer|abilisannor|umserie|set|fugatempor|um|

We obtain thus a model of morphological analysis consisting of a series
of coarser and coarser partitions, each one of which is right in its own
way, and can be considered to be the approximation of other, finer, ones.

We say that Pi is coarser than Pj if any string of Pj is included
in a string of Pi, but no string of Pj is included in a string of
Pi.

An acceptable solution, which is at the same time a morphological
analysis, is then a series of partitions P0, P1, ...
Pj, ....Pn, each one of which (P0 excepted) is finer than the
previous one.

Such a morphological analysis is conveniently represented by
a tree (similar to that of immediate constituent analysis), or
by bracketing, eg.:


=1)
=               .----------------.
=               |                |
=               |           .--------.
=               |           |        |
=               |       .------.     |
=               |       |      |     |
=             .--.   .-----. .----. .--.
=             |in|   |numer| |abil| |is|


2)            ((((in)))(((numer)(abil))((is))))


A morphological analysis is of course an operation more complex
than a partition. It corresponds, however, to a more simple definition
of a morpheme:

    A morpheme is a set of similar strings the intersection of
    which is empty.

It follows from this definition that any morphological analysis
includes the finest partition Pn, into isolated letters, since there
is no one-letter string which does not have a non-empty intersection
with another string. Likewise, it includes the coarsest partition P0,
which is the whole of the text.

This new definition of an acceptable solution does not entail a
particularly more complex recognition procedure.

Note, however, that the definition of similarity is clearly wanting.
It prevents the algorithm from coping with

1) Sandhi-type morphemic alternances, eg. silex/silicis
2) Infixation, eg. rumpo/ruptus
3) Internal flexion, eg. facio/feci
4) Stress shifts, eg. orno/ornare

This is nothing disastrous, however. The first point at least
(* sandhi-type morphemic alternances *) can be fixed with a finer
definition of similarity relation.

(* Probably not. It is difficult to conceive how a similarity
relation allowing for sandhi could be other than language-
specific.  But if we read "morph" instead of "morpheme", the
problem disappears: the algorithm partitions a text into its
morphs; another algorithm must be devised to group them into
morphemes *)

Before we turn to the objective function, we must generalize
some notions already mentioned and introduce new ones.

A string Str which is a member of a morpheme m is a true
occurrence of m if it is also a member of at least one
partition of the morphological analysis A (or in other
words this string is true for that particular analysis).
Consider now a partition of this string. This partition is
immediate if it consists of true occurrences the number of
which is minimum.


THE OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

Since the number of different possible morphological analyses of any
text of reasonable length is so large, the definition of morpheme
elaborated above is wanting. It lacks a criterion of quality.

A morpheme is set of similar strings which occur REPEATEDLY in
a text. Its members must then be, in some way, stable (this,
however, is only true of those strings which are true occurrences
of the morpheme).

Suppose a measure of stability defined. The value of any
given morphological analysis can then be estimated by the
sum of the stabilities of the morphemes identified in the
process. If the measure of stability is good, the higher the
sum, the better the analysis, with the best analysis
yielding a maximum sum.

Let us consider some possible measurements of stability:

1) The stability of a morpheme is equal to the absolute
   frequency of its true occurrences.
   A seemingly attractive definition because of its simplicity,
   but unsatisfactory for short strings of high-frequency letters,
   which may occur frequently by pure chance.

2) The difference between the expected relative frequency of the
   strings of a morpheme and the observed relative frequency of its
   true occurrences.
   (* No reason is given for not using this measurement. *)

3) A function based on the following properties of morphemes:
   a) the presence of a part of a true occurrence announces the
      the presence of the rest of the morpheme with a high
      degree of likelihood
   b) true occurrences of morphemes are likely to be found
      in very different environments.

  (* Point b) possibly inspired from Zelig Harris's  "From
   phoneme to morpheme" in Language, v.21 No.3, 1945 *)


Call the first property (a) internal stability, the second (b)
external stability.

Consider the internal stability of a string Str(0,6) = "passer"

Suppose that the immediate partition of this string is of the
form:

    (p)(a)(s)(s)(e)(r)

List all the possible partitions of this string into two
connected substrings:

P1 (p)|(a) (s) (s) (e) (r)
P2 (p) (a)|(s) (s) (e) (r)
P3 (p) (a) (s)|(s) (e) (r)
P4 (p) (a) (s) (s)|(e) (r)
P5 (p) (a) (s) (s) (e)|(r)

It is clear that wherever "passe" occurs in a Latin text,
"r" is likely to occur next, and that wherever "asser" is found,
"p" is likely to precede.

Represent the string "passer" onto which partition Pi has
been effected by Si,S'i in which S is its left part
and S'i its right part.

Let the degree of attraction of S'i by Si be measured by the
fraction f(Si,S'i)/f(Si) and that of Si by S'i by f(Si,S'i)/f(S'i),
f being here either the relative or the absolute frequency.

(* That is, the degree of attraction of the right part by the
left part is equal to the number of occurrences of left and
right parts together divided by the total number of occurrences
of the left part, with or without the right part *)

The highest degree of attraction is 1 and the lowest is 0.

Let the internal stability of the string be the mean attraction
of all its partitions and strings of length 1 (single letters)
have a stability of 0 by definition.

External stability can be estimated roughly on a binary scale:
complete stability and complete instability. Now, the absolute
frequency of a morpheme m represented by a string S which
alphabetically includes another, longer string S' itself
representing a morpheme m' cannot be greater than that of m'.
Hence, if m and m' occur with exactly the frequency in the text,
m' is, as it were, "immersed" in m. By definition, the external stability
of a morpheme is 0 if it is "immersed" in another, otherwise it is 1.

Let the stability of a morpheme be the product of
its internal and external stabilities, and the stability
of a morphological analysis the sum of the stabilities
of its morphemes.

(* It follows from those definitions that the stability of
the finest (single letters) is zero. This is intuitively
agreeable, for this partition is trivial *)


RECOGNITION PROCEDURE

The optimal morphological analysis of the text and the list of its
true morphemes are obtained simultaneously.

A list of all the morphemes of a text is a gross approximation of
the list of its true morphemes (it is much longer and contains
many morphemes which are mostly false occurrences). Call this
first approximation L0.

A better approximation, L1, is obtained by eliminating morphemes
of stability 0.

L1 is much shorter L0. Unfortunately at this stage L1 lacks true
morphemes of zero stability but re-entering them later is quite easy.
L1 is convenient, for it contains all the morphemes the frequency
of which is necessary to calculate the stability of any morpheme.

The algorithm consists of five steps.


STEP 1

  Build a list L2 of all the morphemes of absolute frequency
  greater than 1, with each entry in the list consisting
  of the string representing the morpheme, and of its absolute
  frequency.
  Since any morpheme with an absolute frequency of one has
  a stability of zero L2 is shorter than L0 and longer than
  L1 as far as morphemes with a stability of 0 and a frequency
  greater than 1 (* eg. one-letter words *) are concerned.

  L2 can be obtained by the following procedure:

  a) List the alphabet of the text, calculate the absolute
     frequency of each letter. Remove entry with a
     frequency of one. This list is the first fragment,
     or fragment of rank 1, of L2. Represent it by L2(1).

  b) Given a fragment of rank n, the fragment of rank n+1 is obtained
     as follows: build the strings of the form Str(0,n)+Str(n,n+1)
     in which Str(0,n) is a string of L2(n) and Str(n,n+1) a string
     of L2(1); n, transposed, moves to the right; calculate their
     frequencies and eliminate the strings with frequencies not greater
     than 1.

     The procedure terminates when we obtain L2(n) for which L2(n+1)
     is empty. The list L2 is of the sum of these fragments.

     (* In far simpler terms: given a text of length n, list
     all the substrings of it from length 1 to n which occur
     more than once *)

STEP 2

  Calculate the stability of each string of L2.

  (But remember that at this stage only strings of length 1 can
  be considered to constitute true occurrences of morphemes.)

STEP 3

  This  step is based on the assumption that all the
  occurrences of the morpheme with the highest stability
  (greater than zero) are true. Granted this assumption,
  no string which has a non-empty intersection with an
  occurrence of this maximum stability morpheme can be a
  true occurrence of a morpheme.

  Therefore, select the morpheme of L2 with the highest
  stability, and bracket its occurrences in the text
  (* thus carrying out morpheme recognition and
  morphological analysis concurrently *)

  The frequency of every morpheme of L2 with a
  non-empty intersection with N occurrences of the
  selected morpheme is reduced by N. Some false occurrences
  are thus discarded. When during this process the frequency
  of any given morpheme falls below 2 it is eliminated from
  the list.

  Since the status (true or false occurrence) and
  the frequency of strings varies during the procedure, the
  stability of the rest of the remaining morphemes is then
  calculated anew.

  The process is repeated until only morphemes with zero
  stabilities are left.

STEP 4
  We now have a partition of the text expressed by bracketing.
  This partition, however, does not yet represent a morphological
  analysis.

  But first a few definitions.

  A pair of brackets which contains no other brackets is of
  rank 1. A pair of bracket which contains other brackets,
  the highest rank of which is i-1, is therefore itself of
  rank i. A segment of text which is not between
  brackets of rank 1, does not contain brackets, and is
  between brackets of any rank not necessarily forming a
  pair, is considered to be between brackets of rank 0
  (not represented in the text). A segment between two
  brackets of rank i is a segment of rank i.
  A pair of brackets is AUTONOMOUS for rank r if the lowest rank
  of the brackets by which it is contained is r.

  Find the maximum bracket rank of the text. Call it r. Consider
  the text to be between (invisible) brackets of rank r+1.
  Enclose all brackets pairs autonomous for rank r+1 with
  new bracket pairs until the rank of the enclosing brackets
  is equal to r.

  Repeat for all segments of rank r down to 2.

  The morphological analysis -- represented by bracketing
  segments of the text -- is now complete.

STEP 5
  The segments which appeared in brackets for the first time
  at step 4 are true occurrences of zero-stability morphemes
  (eg. morphemes having only one string for member)
  and are added to L2.




From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 23 19:32:04 1997
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         ON SOME PROPERTIES OF INFORMATIVE TEXTS
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
               translated and adapted by Jacques Guy

Let us call INFORMATIVE texts meant to be deciphered.

Note that this concept is different from that of "meaning" proper,
for a text which carries a meaning is not necessarily meant to be
deciphered without a key. Consequently, meaningless and undecipherable
texts, by definition, cannot be informative.

Since encryption is relatively rare, a characteristic feature of texts
in a natural language will be their high degree of INFORMATIVENESS.
I shall not attempt to formalize this concept any further, as I only
wish to suggest directions for further research.

Take for instance  a problem very similar to the partitioning of a
text into its constituent morphemes. Imagine a text encoded using
n-tuples of integers, so that each letter corresponds to one n-tuple.
Suppose n known. The problem is: find the beginning of the n-tuples.

It is obvious that (supposing the text circular or its beginning and
end missing, so that the solution is not trivial) there are only
n classes of starting positions, since each starting point is
equivalent to the one obtained moving nm positions left or right
(m being an integer). Thus the set of acceptable solutions is
defined: it is the set of partitions of the text into n-tuples,
and this set has n elements.

How can the quality of such a partition be judged?

A random text can be considered to be a sequence of symbols produced
by randomly drawing symbols from a box. The probabilities of the
different symbols must be considered equal and so must be those of the
corresponding n-tuples (if they were not, there would be less reason
to consider the text to be completelty random). It seems obvious that an
informative text must differ considerably from a random text.
Several functions can be proposed to evaluate its degree of
randomness, for instance, the sum of the absolute deviations
from the mean probability, the sum of their squares, or the
first-order entropy of the text, or its infinite-order entropy.

Choosing between those functions is difficult, even though infinite-order
entropy seems best. At any rate, since they are probably all roughly
equivalent for the use to which we are about to put them, the simplest
one will be used here.

Let us encode the Roman alphabet into ternary 3-tuples, i.e.:
a=000, b=001, c=002, d=010, e=011, f=012, g=020, etc...

The short Latin text "Donec eris felix, multos numerabis amicos,
tempora si fuerint nubila, solus eris" becomes:

010111110011002011121022122012011101022210102201101200111122
110201102011121000001022122000102022002111122200011102112111
121000122022012201011121022110200110201001022101000122111101
20112201121022122

We have:

=           Number of 3-tuples occurring N times
=                   in partition
=
=           P1            P2         P3
=N
=
=0          10             7          6
=1           3             6          5
=2           3             5          5
=3           1             3          4
=4           4             0          0
=5           3             2          2
=6           0             1          2
=7           1             2          1
=8           2             0          1
=9           0             0          0
=10          0             0          0
=11          0             1          0


The objective function, here the sum of the absolute deviations from
the mean frequency, should be very small for a truly random text.
Now, since an erroneous partition should resemble a random text more
than a correct partition should, the maximum value of the objective
function should correspond to the correct partition.

In fact, the sum of the absolute deviations from the mean frequency is
60 for partition P1, 53 for partition P2, and 49 for partition P3, and the
maximum sum, 60, does correspond to the correct partition, P1.

But the four possible objective functions suggested above take
an extreme value when symbols are cyclically repeated throughout
the text. Such texts are clearly not what our intuition sees as
informative. Therefore, none of these functions provides a measure
of the informativeness of texts.

Assume now that a mostly random text is given. Whichever two possible
partitions are considered, the corresponding values of the objective
function (whether it is the sum of the absolute deviations, of their
square, or the entropy of any order) can be expected to be very close.

If, on the other hand, a mostly non-random text is given, the values
of these same functions calculated on any two partitions will be just
as close as for a random text.

The above observations suggest that, when an informative text is
encoded as in our example, the difference of quality between the best
and the worst partition can only be infinitely small.

Consider now a text somehow encoded.

The resulting encoded text can be considered to be one particular
interpretation of the original.

Assume that some objective function has been defined by which
the quality of each possible interpretation can be evaluated.

Then, it possible to produce a "very good interpretation" of an informative
text, as well as a "very bad" one.

Now, it seems intuitively true that an informative text can be either
"well" understood or "badly" understood. On the other hand, a random
text can only be "badly" understood, and an obvious text (a periodic
sequence of symbols, for instance) can only be "understood". Here,
"understanding" means being able to predict what follows on the evidence
of some part of the text.

If so, it would seem natural to try and evaluate to what degree a text
is informative from the difference of quality between its best and its
worst interpretation:

  Q(Informativeness) = Q(Best interpretation) - Q(Worst interpretation)

If "partial interpretation" is defined as "acceptable solution of
a decipherment algorithm", it is now possible to answer this question:
what is the property of a text which maximizes its partial informativeness?
(by which is meant the difference between the quality of the best and
the worst acceptable solution). The solution to this problem must lie in
the computation of the distributions of the n-tuples of symbols for a
class of interpretations which maximize partial informativeness, or
in the computation of some statistical properties of those interpretations,
such as moments or redundancy. Those are the properties by which it
should be possible to ascertain to what degree a text is possessed
with the property of being informative.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jun 24 14:38:06 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:32:08 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Let me clarify my ideas somewhat.

rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> Dennis (>>) and Gabriel (>) wrote:
> 
> >> We talked for a while about a CD-ROM publication of Petersen.
> >> That could give us color images.
> 
> > I thought that the talks fell apart because the amount of
> > space to scan so many pages at a resolution that would keep
> > all the colour information was too large.
> 
> It should fit, as a CD-ROM would offer about 2MB per page.

	The color images of f33v and f34r on Risto Paasivirta's Crypto Chamber
are jpg's of about 120K each.  We would want to use gif's for better
accuracy.  Say 200K each.  For 230 folios that's 46M.  Not hard at all
on a CD-ROM.

> > It is very clear that Yale does not want anything of this
> > sort.....

	Even with Denis' recent contact, it's not clear that they wouldn't be
willing under the right conditions.  I'm thinking of 20-30 CD-ROM's. 
The images would contain Yale's digital signature to prevent
unauthorized copies.  

	Maybe Yale has already had this situation occur, that some scholars
want a very limited CD-ROM publication of a Ms, with Yale retaining the
rights of wider publication.  
> > 1. pay Yale for the right of doing so
> 
> Perhaps not prohibitive.  I've no idea really. The Ukrainians
> were allowed to video it and I am sure they were no
> millionaires. They might not even bother about this too
> much if they see that it would reduce the amount of our
> annoying and silly requests.

	The Ukrainians paid 500 $US to videotape large portions of the VMs and
to display (unknown) portions on Kiev television.  

> > 2. pay a photographer to go there and do it
> > 3. pay of the photo materials.
> > 4. pay for the printing and shipping of the CD.

	I assumed that we would do all the work.  One of us might borrow the
necessary equipment and go take the pictures.  The opportunity might
arise for one of us to do it.   We could pay someone to burn the
CD-ROM's, probably for not very much.  Thus we'd just have the cost of
materials, which shouldn't be too much.  

	I presume we'd have to put Yale's digital signature in the computer
files.  I don't know enough about the technology to know what's involved
there.  

	It might be doable - especially if Yale has already done something like
this, as I mentioned.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 04:26:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 24 Jun 97 at 13:32, Dennis wrote:

> Let me clarify my ideas somewhat.
[..]
> 	The color images of f33v and f34r on Risto Paasivirta's Crypto Chamber
> are jpg's of about 120K each.  We would want to use gif's for better
> accuracy.  Say 200K each.  For 230 folios that's 46M.  Not hard at all
> on a CD-ROM.

I wrote this to Rene, since I did not think there was much interest 
in the details...:

I have a bit of experience here because this is what I do 
(medical image processing).
I don't think that the storage is solved that easily. At 24 bit, only 
768x512x24 takes around 1.2 MB and you need at least much more 
resolution than that for an A4 page to be readable (remember the 
recent Capelli's images). We would need about 4 times that. That is 
4.8 MB per image times 240 pages or so: 1.152 GB. Ok 2 CDs. and you 
have space left for the readme.txt file :-)

On top of that, if you want to preserve the original resolution of 
the capture then forget about compressing the image with JPEG-like
formats. Presumably at this time PNG is the most prommising 
(non-lossy 24 bit format, better than GIF).

> >> risk for them.  There could be digital signatures in the
> >> images, if they're worried about unauthorized copies.

About the digital watermarking.
This is a very dubious area. If you watermark the pictures, with some 
processing that may go away (more below). This does not prevent 
ANYBODY from duplicating the images, it is only that they carry a 
mark. This costs money and has been debatable whether it works at 
all. Then you need a Voynich-picture watchdog searching for the 
digital pictures... where? On the net? If they are re-published on 
paper then forget the watermark.

Get the image, do a soft-blur pass, then an enhace one and 
reduce the palette reducing the colours of the image. I 
doubt very much that these methods work at all. This does not mean of 
course that if you use the original *as is* it would not keep the 
digital signature.

And, how on earth can you assure Yale that any person who buys the 
CD will not do something like publishing or setting it in a net 
server or both?  I presume that this is what the people at Yale 
think: we own it, and we'll do it whenever we want and in our terms. 
Sad, really.

> > 1. pay Yale for the right of doing so

That was a TV company. Thay *may* have more money than us :-) and on
top brings a bit of publicity to Yale (and we don't).
You said $500, but that does not produce "transcription-quality 
reproduction";  remember that the resolution of the TV is pretty 
horrid. On top of that they may have signed a contract with Yale and 
who knows what were the terms.


Oh, and I forgot the Yale supervision fee as well...

> 	I assumed that we would do all the work.  One of us might borrow the
> necessary equipment and go take the pictures.

But this is talking in the air... 230 pages? How much time does it 
take to take 1 picture? Set it up (most probably they will not allow 
you to touch it, re-focus, correct background illumination, hmm...)

You need either a precise image scanner (which I would doubt they 
would allow you to use directly on the MS or a very high resolution 
camera (forget NTSC/PAL standards). I doubt anybody in the 
group has one hi-res camera plus a huge storage device/media which 
are transportable.

>We could pay someone to burn the
> CD-ROM's, probably for not very much.  Thus we'd just have the cost of
> materials, which shouldn't be too much.  

Here it costs about 4 pounds for bulks of 100 CD. Yes, this seems to 
be a minor factor.

> 	It might be doable - especially if Yale has already done something like
> this, as I mentioned.  

I really doubt it, unless there is a formal institution backing this 
up. 

Cheers

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 04:26:03 1997
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On 24 Jun 97 at 16:07, Dennis wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> > that would mean she replaces Robert Babcock who
> > used to be in charge. Maybe a new person could
> > bring a new atmosphere.....

I do not think so. Mr. B is the curator of ME MSs, Ms Cordes 
is in charge of Public Services (as far as I know from previous 
contacts). Check their page.

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 06:32:03 1997
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At 09:15 25/06/97 +0000, Gabriel Landini wrote:
>
>I don't think that the storage is solved that easily. At 24 bit, only 
>768x512x24 takes around 1.2 MB and you need at least much more 
>resolution than that for an A4 page to be readable (remember the 
>recent Capelli's images). We would need about 4 times that. That is 
>4.8 MB per image times 240 pages or so: 1.152 GB. Ok 2 CDs. and you 
>have space left for the readme.txt file :-)
>

I doubt that the full 24-bit gamut would be required; a 16-bit 565 would
probably give perfectly good reproduction. Actually, a 256 colour image
with a seperate palette for each page would probably be fine as long as
you were careful about the colour reduction algorithm. That would
immediately decrease the storage requirement to something quite manageable,
with room for machine-readable versions and the various software tools.


>But this is talking in the air... 230 pages? How much time does it 
>take to take 1 picture? Set it up (most probably they will not allow 
>you to touch it, re-focus, correct background illumination, hmm...)
>
>You need either a precise image scanner (which I would doubt they 
>would allow you to use directly on the MS or a very high resolution 
>camera (forget NTSC/PAL standards). I doubt anybody in the 
>group has one hi-res camera plus a huge storage device/media which 
>are transportable.
>

I would imagine that the library has a decent rostrum camera setup...

Jim

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 06:17:08 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:06:53 +0000
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Hi all,

Jacques has kindly made available FQ. The file fq.zip contains two 
programmes and Pascal source to produce tables of word-adjacent 
frequencies,  (for MS-DOS, size 48 KB). It is at the EVMT site, in 
the Files and Links section as "FQ".

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 06:44:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: Jim Finnis <jcf@broadsword.demon.co.uk>, voynich@rand.org
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Subject: Re: Yale (WAS: (Fwd) some herbal pics)
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On 25 Jun 97 at 11:22, Jim Finnis wrote:

> At 09:15 25/06/97 +0000, Gabriel Landini wrote:
> I doubt that the full 24-bit gamut would be required; a 16-bit 565 would
> probably give perfectly good reproduction. Actually, a 256 colour image
> with a seperate palette for each page would probably be fine as long as
> you were careful about the colour reduction algorithm. That would
> immediately decrease the storage requirement to something quite manageable,
> with room for machine-readable versions and the various software tools.

That makes the difference between images than can be 
processed and the ones that cannot. They may look Ok, but the colour 
reduction will be based on some dithering algorithm that makes the 
colour information useless. 
If this effort  is ever going to be made, it will be a "one time" 
work. We should go for the best quality. Then, if there is "too much" 
data, we can always reduce it afterwards.

> I would imagine that the library has a decent rostrum camera setup...

Maybe, but that does not solve anything as I am sure that it comes at 
a further price. Or the other thing would be to just photograph in 
large colour negative the whole MS and make the digital bit 
afterwards. Now that would be more feasible.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 07:53:18 1997
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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 13:48:22 +0200
Subject: Re: Yale (WAS: (Fwd) some herbal pics)
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Gabriel and Jim  Finnis wrote:


>> I doubt that the full 24-bit gamut would be required; a 16-bit 565 would
>> probably give perfectly good reproduction. Actually, a 256 colour image
>> with a seperate palette for each page would probably be fine as long as
>> you were careful about the colour reduction algorithm. That would
>> immediately decrease the storage requirement to something
>> quite manageable,  with room for machine-readable versions
>> and the various software tools.

> That makes the difference between images than can be
> processed and the ones that cannot. They may look Ok, but the colour
> reduction will be based on some dithering algorithm that makes the
> colour information useless.

Any compression algorithm that is reversible should be
allowed. Dithering should indeed not be done if image
processing is intended (although it could perhaps be
done anyway, it just makes it a lot more complicated).
For human reading it would not be a problem.
> If this effort  is ever going to be made, it will be
> a "one time" work. We should go for the best quality.
> Then, if there is "too much"
> data, we can always reduce it afterwards.

Yes and no. For a one-time effort one should consider IR and
UV imaging as well, and I doubt we'd ever get that off the
ground. If getting it done at all is only possible if
we make some concessions we should carefully weigh them
(but if the sacrifice is just having two CD's instead of
one I could live with it :-) )

> Or the other thing would be to just photograph in
> large colour negative the whole MS and make the digital bit
> afterwards. Now that would be more feasible.

If we do again consider approching Yale one way or another,
we should have a clear-cut and very feasible proposal.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 08:23:04 1997
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Gabriel wrote:

> Dithering does not compress at all, it just remaps the
> colours to an "eye cheating" pattern with fewer colours
> (actually dithered images are more difficult to compress).

Agreed, but dithering is only done if you have just
decided to save space by using fewer bits per pixel.

R.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 08:14:05 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org, rzandber@esoc.esa.de
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Subject: Re: Yale (WAS: (Fwd) some herbal pics)
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On 25 Jun 97 at 13:48, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> Any compression algorithm that is reversible should be
> allowed. Dithering should indeed not be done if image
> processing is intended (although it could perhaps be
> done anyway, it just makes it a lot more complicated).
> For human reading it would not be a problem.

That is why I proposed PNG which is the only 24 bit non-lossy 
compression which is better than GIF (in the 8 bit version of 
course),  which is free and for which viewers are already 
implemented. But as you cannot preview how much is your image to 
compress to, I would use the uncompressed size for a start.  
Dithering does not compress at all, it just remaps the colours to an 
"eye cheating" pattern with fewer colours (actually dithered images 
are more difficult to compress).

> Yes and no. For a one-time effort one should consider IR and
> UV imaging as well, and I doubt we'd ever get that off the
> ground.

The only difference is that opting for 24 vs. 8 bit colours is 
possible and not complicated, while IR and UV photography require 
much more specialised equipment that will be difficult to get. 
Besides, I really doubt that UV and IR would make any difference to 
the decipherment (I agree that there could be some hidden or erased 
stuff) but I rather have a nice image that corresponds to what we're 
trying to solve.

> If getting it done at all is only possible if
> we make some concessions we should carefully weigh them
> (but if the sacrifice is just having two CD's instead of
> one I could live with it :-) )

> If we do again consider approching Yale one way or another,
> we should have a clear-cut and very feasible proposal.

So far, the easiest thing would be to get somebody there to 
photograph it all on large negatives and then we could see how to get 
it on a CD. (more than one shot per page, please!).

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 13:23:08 1997
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From: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Yale (WAS: (Fwd) some herbal pics)
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Status: OR

Is there some real plan afoot to photograph the manuscript?

If I were doing it, I would definitely want the best colour resolution
possible and store the archival copies in PNG. That gives you a good
data set to work from, and PNG compresses quite well. Then I'd produce
a JPG version to give out for most uses, but leave the hires image
around in case someone thinks there's data hidden.

Acquiring the images is the hard part. Digital cameras are really not
up to the task, at least at a price I could afford. But good ol'
analog film can do a very nice job. There are experts on photographing
manuscripts, work with them. Once you have the images on film you can
either use a slide scanner or PhotoCD (for print negatives) to make
very high quality digital images. PhotoCD scans at 3000x2000 or so and
is quite cheap, about $1 per image at a commercial house.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 19:29:04 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:14:36 EDT
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:13:45 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: cd-ROMs
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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An interesting fact I ran into when asking the British Museum about cd-roms
is that our own Library of Congress, when trying to find a medium for
document storage, did not find the cd-rom technology worthy, although it
was used for certain documents.  It seems that the manufacturers give the
medium a life of 20 years, but the L of C found through our tax money that
the medium was only good for periods of 4 to 5 years, due primarily to the
fact that the aluminum sub-stratum was prone to oxidation.  I don't know if
this is why Yale has not considered a cd-rom version of any of its
manuscripts, but it sure does throw a wrench into any major archiving using
this medium.

Another problem would be the unstoppable advance of technology.  I already
find that GIF's of less than 20 megabytes do not give me the detail I
desire, but I realize that few have the tools and the speed to make this
comparison.  A 200k GIF gets "grainy" at 4x power (4 times my screen size),
and at 16 all I see are small rectangles.  My scans average 28 megabytes
per page, which is high technology for now, but low technology in the very
near future.

This would suggest that any cd-rom version of the manuscript using 200k per
image should be considered only for color identification and such.  A
minimum of 2000 dpi is needed to properly reproduce font characteristics
without some artistic effort, while 3000 dpi is preferable.  Pigmentation
changes on each page can also be difficult to analyze at lower resolutions.

I can burn in cd-roms, which cost me about $1.00 apiece for blanks when I
buy in bulk.  I still believe a color photograph shoot is necessary, which
will cost some $2,000 at last report.  If the slides, negatives or
photographs are available, each of us can then use them in ways that suit
both our equipment and our needs.

This is not an unreachable sum, and I have pretty much decided that after
summer trips are out of the way, I will approach the Bienecke for a full
color shoot.  I would like to use a professional photographer, which I hope
they will not object to.  (I would like spectral images of the pages as
well.)  A set of color negatives donated to the Bienecke for distribution
would be an added incentive, I hope.  

Any ideas, anyone?  Last time I asked they said I had to at least be
affiliated with a University in order to get the clearance.



    
Regards,   Rayman      

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 03:56:03 1997
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UNSUBSRIBE

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 04:29:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:23:24 +0200
Subject: Re: Yale (WAS: (Fwd) some herbal pics)
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Dear all,

> Is there some real plan afoot to photograph the manuscript?

The discussion pops up every year or so. No reason to get
too excited yet. But who knows, one of these times it
might work out.

> If I were doing it, I would definitely want the best colour
> resolution possible and store the archival copies in PNG.
> That gives you a good data set to work from, and PNG compresses
> quite well.

Just assuming that 236 PNG files would be put on CD,
each would get 2.5 Mb. (I don't know if PNG files
can be further compressed using zip or one of his sons,
but perhaps 3-4 Mb might be possible for the original
PNG files).
Now the pages are 54 square inches each.
How much would one be able to obtain in dpi for zipped
PNG files? Probably not the 2000 suggested by Rayman,
but I am sure we could satisfy most wishes with a
lower resolution.

As for the question about putting some mark in the images
to protect them, I doubt that this will be necessary.
Even the music CD one buys in the shop is protected by the
same copyright. Copying it or republishing it are not
legal and that's it. It probably says so somewhere
on the cover. Occasionally someone gets caught doing it
anyway and then he pays.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 04:47:04 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:35:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: Yale (WAS: (Fwd) some herbal pics)
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Hi,
On 26 Jun 97 at 10:23, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

. (I don't know if PNG files
> can be further compressed using zip or one of his sons,
> but perhaps 3-4 Mb might be possible for the original
> PNG files).

No they can't as the compression algorithm *IS* the gzip one.
This compresses further more than the LZ  (GIF) one because the way 
the data is fed in, I think.

But each image will compress according to how much information is in 
the image anyway. So presuming that they'll compress to such and such 
size is not a good estimate. Calculating the raw data is, and if you 
get some compression, then that is a bonus.
So you calculate row x columns x 3 and you get the size of the raw 
data in 25 bit colour.

So far, the easiest is to get well shot images (good illumination, 
and large negatives) and the rest can be done for a (little?) price 
(Kodak CD?) as 1 or 2 masters and then we can duplicate anywhere we 
want. If it is 2 or 3 or 4 CDs it won't make a price difference since 
the media is cheap compared to what it may cost to buy a colour book.

> As for the question about putting some mark in the images
> to protect them, I doubt that this will be necessary.
> Even the music CD one buys in the shop is protected by the
> same copyright. Copying it or republishing it are not
> legal and that's it. It probably says so somewhere
> on the cover. Occasionally someone gets caught doing it
> anyway and then he pays.

I agree. Adding signatures complicates the process, adds price 
(you'll have to pay for that!) and they are useless as "protection".
If Yale wants to police the net, then it is up to them.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 04:47:05 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 26 Jun 97 at 9:35, I wrote:
> So you calculate row x columns x 3 and you get the size of the raw 
> data in 25 bit colour.

That should be 24 bit!
cheers,

Gabriel
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 09:59:03 1997
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Hi!

 > The $2000 would be if Yale did the photography and everything else.
 > I believe that they currently list color shots of the VMs as $15 per
 > page.  If we did the actual photographic work, we would only  have to
 >  pay them for rights and supervision.

 Hmmm. If Rayman as a private individual orders the photos to be
 made, he is likely to have to sign an agreement not to give
 or sell copies to anybody.
 If we chip in $2000,- or any other amount and approach Yale
 as a group, requesting n copies of the result, we are
 bound to have to pay n times the rights.

 It would be much more interesting for them to take the pictures
 themselves. They get the money for it and they get to keep
 the pictures too.

 An important argument will be that having a set of high-quality
 pictures is very interesting for them as it will spare the
 Ms future harrassment by photography and other copying.

 Maybe we should get a quote from them for a scenario where
 one set of shots is made, followed by the group sale of 'n'
 copies, and see if it is economically reasonable. Furthermore
 tell them that 'n' CDROM's are highly preferable to 'n'
 piles of prints (or allow both for all I care).

 I have no University affiliation, I'm afraid.

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 10:08:04 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 09:47:04 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 26 Jun 97 at 8:37, Dennis wrote:
> 	The $2000 would be if Yale did the photography and everything else.  I
> believe that they currently list color shots of the VMs as $15 per
> page.  If we did the actual photographic work, we would only  have to
> pay them for rights and supervision.  

That is assuming that they are going to charge the "individual" fees 
to the group, which is unlikely if they know that we will make 100 
copies or so.
 
> 	From the discussion so far on the list, high-quality analog color
> photographs sure sounds like the way to go (assuming Yale will agree to
> anything).  Offering them the negatives for free as an enticement sounds
> like a very good idea.  

They can have as many negatives as they want whenever they want. I do 
not think that this is any good deal for them.

> 	Does anyone think that getting color images of the Petersen copy would
> be worth the trouble?

I don't think it is worth the trouble, but I would not oppose the 
intiative.

Gabriel 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 20:02:04 1997
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                    PARSING A CLAUSE
                    by B.V. Sukhotin
           translation and comments by Jacques Guy


 The first problem is finding the graph that expresses the
 immediate syntactic relationships within a clause, without
 determining the hierarchy of syntactic dependences. Eg:

      Gaudia principium nostri sunt saepe doloris

           Gaudia-----sunt-----saepe
                       |
                   principium
                       |
                     doloris
                       |
                     nostri


PREREQUISITE INFORMATION

We assume that each word can be assigned to a syntactic class,
that the boundaries of clauses are given, and that, since
a clause can be embedded in another, that the text has been
rewritten so that its clauses occur in sequence, eg.:

    Pyramus et Thisbe, iuvenum pulcherrimus alter,
    Altera, quas Oriens habuit, praelata puella,
    Contiguas tenuere domos.

-->(Pyramus et Thisbe contiguas tenuere domos)
   (iuvenum pulcherrimus alter)
   (altera praelata puella)
   (quas Oriens habuit)

It is clear that grammatical categories which are significant for the
structure of sentences should, as far as possible, be selected. For
instance, the several different personal forms of verbs (* 1st, 2nd, 3rd
person, singular and plural, in various tenses and modes *) seem of
little importance (* for they freely substitute for one another *), and
can be fitted into a single class. On the contrary, cases cannot be
freely substituted one for another and must be assigned to distinct
classes. The difference between adjective and substanstive also seems
relevant, whereas that between noun and pronoun apparently is not. Using
an algorithm to determine to what syntactic classes words belong would
be desirable, but such an algorithm does not exist yet.

We propose the following classification for Latin:

V (personal form of a verb), NS (substantive in the nominative),
GS (substantive in the genitive), DS (in the dative), AcS
(in the accusative), AbS (in the ablative), VS (in the vocative),
NA, GA, DA, AcA, AbA, VA (adjective in those same cases),
I (infinitive), Ad (adverb), Pr (preposition), C (conjunction),
P (particle).

The text is then encoded as follows:

   -- each word is replaced by the symbol of its class
   -- the boundaries of clauses are indicated by brackets.

(* e.g.:  Pyramus et Thisbe contiguas tenuere domos
     --> (NS      C  NS     AcA       V       AcS) *)

We denote a word W[i] of class C[j] by W[i](C[j])

SET OF ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS

The syntactic relationship of two words of a clause is a
binary relation * defined on the set of the words within
the clause. The relation * is:

1) symmetrical, ie. if W[i](C[p])*W[j](C[q]) then W[j](C[q])*W[i](C[p]);
2) connected, ie. for any pair of words W[i](C[p]) and W[j](C[q])
   there exists a series

                W[i](C[p])*W[a](C[t])
                W[a](C[t])*W[b](C[u])
                ....
                W[k](C[x])*W[j](C[q])

  in which W[a](C[t]) can be W[j](C[q])

3) non-cyclical, ie. the above sequence is uniquely
   determined.

4) non-reflexive, ie. there are no pairs of the type
   W[i](C[p])*W[i](C[p]).

The above definition corresponds to non-directed trees, that is,
connected graphs without circuits. By choosing that definition,
we describe a set of syntactic analyses as a set of non-directed
trees.


OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

If a clause has more than two elements, the tree which represents it
cannot be uniquely determined.

The best tree is chosen on this hypothesis: in a clause, the
representants of classes which are syntactically bound attract each
other.

For instance the presence of a verb in a personal form indicates the
presence of a substantive in the nominative without fail (* that is
false, e.g. "Veni, vidi, vici" *), and vice-versa; an adjective in the
dative  indicates the presence of a substantive in the dative (the
reverse is not true), etc. (* that is also false, e.g.: "Similis
similibus curantur" *) On the other hand, the occurrence of, say, an
adjective in the dative does not indicate that of an adjective in the
ablative.

To each pair of words W[i](C[p]), W[j](C[q]) in a clause a "weight"
w(i,j) is assigned which is a measure of the attraction between C[p]
and C[q]. The best tree is that for which the sum:

             Sum  Sum  w(i,j)
                i    j

is maximum.

One possible formula for w(i,j) is:

           1    f(C[i],C[j])   f(C[i],C[j])
 w(i,j) = --- ( ------------ + ------------ )
           2      f(C[i])        f(C[j])

in which f(C[i],C[j]) is number of occurrences of C[i] and C[j]
within the same clause, and f(C[i]) and f(C[j]) the total number
of occurrences of C[i] and C[j].

(*  The notation is inconsistent. The function w(i,j) is defined
here with grammatical classes C[i] and C[j] as arguments, but was
defined earlier as a function of grammatical classes C[p] and C[q]
to which words W[i] and W[j] belonged *)

The function is symmetrical, ie. w(i,j) = w(j,i).
The corresponding asymmetrical function, which will also be needed
is:

            f(C[i],C[j])
 w'(i,j) =  ------------
              f(C[i])


RECOGNITION PROCEDURE

It proceeds in two stages. In the first stage matrices |w'(i,j)| and
|w(i,j)| are calculated from the text.

Those two matrices provide us with a "probabilistic grammar" of
sorts of the language being investigated.

The individual clauses of the text are analyzed in the second stage
with the help of this grammar.

Two equivalent algorithms can be used to maximize the objective
function calculated for the set of trees corresponding to a clause.
Both were designed with computational economy in view and have
been independently rediscovered time and again, even by this author.

ALGORITHM I.

Consider a sentence ABCDE and the corresponding graph
all the vertices of which are directly connected by arcs.
To each arc is associated the corresponding value w(i,j)
found in |w(i,j)|.

This graph cannot be an acceptable solution since it contains
circuits. Arcs must therefore be removed to extract a tree out
of it.

The elimination procedure must be such that the remaining arcs
have maximum weights; therefore, arcs with the lowest values
of w(i,j) are first eliminated unless their removal would cause
the graph to become disconnected.

Therefore arcs must be removed in order of increasing weight
whilst taking care that the removal of the arc selected does not
break up the graph.

The procedure terminate when all arc have been considered for
removal.

ALGORITHM II.

The clause is representing by disconnected vertices A,B,C,D,E.
The process consists in connecting still disconnected vertices.
Assume that some arcs have already been drawn. The vertices
connected are said to be "selected", the rest to be "unselected".
The requisite for connected a selected vertex to an unselected
vertex is:

          w(u,v) >= w(x,y)

in which x is a selected node and y an unselected node.

The procedure starts with the arc of maximum weight and
stops when all nodes are selected. Algorithm II is simpler
than algorithm I because there is no need to check that
the graph remains connected.

SUBORDINATION GRAPH

The above graph which represents syntactic ties is easily
transformed into one representing subordination. It is
natural to think that a subordinate word has more "need"
of the word to which it is subordinate than the other way
around. An adjective in the dative, for instance,
cannot occur without being accompanied by a substantive
in the dative (* untrue for Latin *), whereas the reverse
is true.

Arcs will therefore be directed by the following rule:
if w'(i,j) > w'(j,i), then arc W[i](C[p]),W[j](C[q]) is
directed from W[j](C[q]) to W[i](C[p]); if w'(i,j) < w'(j,i)
then it is directed from W[i](C[p]) to W[j](C[q]).

ESTABLISHING TYPES OF SYNTACTIC RELATIONSHIPS

One can expect the algorithms described above to be to some
extent erroneous. One typical mistake is parataxis being
substituted to hypotaxis when a string of subordinate
genitives is encountered, e.g.:

          NS                          NS
          |                           |
       .-----.       instead of:     GS1
       |     |                        |
      GS1   GS2                      GS2

This particular mistake stems from the lack of initial information about
those words which their markers only signal as belonging to a syntactic
class. Moreover, the case of a nouns which governs another noun in
the genitive does not allow to ascertain in what cases those words
are right; information about syntactic classes can therefore also
be unessential. One must then conclude that more adequate information
is needed.

Let us then introduce a supplementary classification criterion, which
we shall call "lexical".

Lexical classes contain words which share a common root (e.g.
pater, patris, patri, etc.). It is desirable too, but far more
difficult in the case of automatic processing, to include in
the same class suppletive forms, such as fero, tuli, latum
(* or, in English: go, went *), and even words with similar
meanings: pulcher, formosus, bellus.

Each word v[i] is now defined by a pair l(v[i]), k(v[i]),
in which l(v[i]) is its lexical class and k(v[i]) its
syntactic class. Functions W(i,j) and W'(i,j), similar to
w(i,j) and w'(i,j) used in the previous algorithms, are
now defined for pairs of words v[i], v[j]:

            1    f(k(v[i]),k(v[j]))   f(l(v[i]),k(v[j]))
 W'[i,j] = --- ( ------------------ + ------------------
            4       f(k(v[i]))           f(l(v[i])

               f(l(v[i]),l(v[j]))   f(k(v[i]),l(v[j]))
               ------------------ + ------------------ )
                  f(l(v[i])            f(k(v[i])

           1
 W(i,j) = ---  ( W'(i,j) + W'(j,i))
           2

It seems that functions W(i,j) and W'(i,j) provide a best estimate
of the syntactic tie between words, because they take into account
the roots encountered.

The first stage of the procedure will differ from than of the
previous algorithms in that the structure of the "probabilistic
grammar" will now be a matrix containing conditional probabilities
of the type f(K[i],K[j])/f(K[i]) in which K[i] and K[j] represent
lexical or grammatical classes. If grammatical classes are clustered
in the top left-hand corner of the matrix four quadrants can be
distinguished:

          K[1], K[2] ..... K[m]  l[1],l[2] ..... l[n]
         .-------------------------------------------.
   K[1]  |                     |                     |
   K[2]  |                     |                     |
    .    |                     |                     |
    .    |         1           |         2           |
    .    |                     |                     |
   K[m]  |                     |                     |
         |---------------------+---------------------|
   l[1]  |                     |                     |
   l[2]  |                     |                     |
    .    |                     |                     |
    .    |         4           |         3           |
    .    |                     |                     |
   l[m]  |                     |                     |
         '-------------------------------------------'

Each quadrant corresponds to a certain type of conditional
probability, the first shows how the grammatical properties
of a given word predict the those of another; the fourth
how lexical properties predict lexical properties, and
the second how grammatical properties predict lexical
properties.

The values of syntactic tie functions cannot be found in
(* existing *) tables; they have to be calculated separately
for each word pair.

The procedure is trivial. However, its second step provides
significant information regarding the different types of
syntactic affinity between words.

Four types of arcs can now be introduced which will enter in
the final graph depending on the type of the more important
conditional probability in W(i,j). Some of those types
correspond to types of subordination described in traditional
grammar, which is rather surprising.

TYPE 1. Grammatical properties predict grammatical properties.
In this case the attraction between two words is essentially due
to the attraction between the classes to which they belong.
This corresponds to the notion of "concordance" in traditional
grammar.

TYPE 4. Lexical properties predict grammatical properties. This
corresponds the notion of "rection" of traditional grammar.

TYPE 3. Lexical properties predict lexical properties. This type of
relation does not correspond precisely to any known notion of
traditional grammar, yet it is of great interest, for it emphasizes a
phenomenon which has been little researched to date, even though it
plays an important part in the structure of texts. This phenomenon could
be termed "lexical concordance".

TYPE 2. Grammatical properties predict lexical properties. No equivalent
notion of traditional grammar comes to mind. This type of dependence may
be extremely rare, perhaps non-existent even.

It seems that resorting to several classification methods instead of
only one is an efficient method for utilizing the available information.
The search for syntactic ties is then based not only on the category of
case, but also on those of gender, number, and person. Finally, words
can be classified according to their proximity or their order in the
text. Such classification schemes are important for analytical languages
such as English, French, etc.

It follows that a string of symbols g[1],g[2], ... g[n], in which g[i]
is the ith class of grammatical classification, can be associated to a
word. If the text is encoded using such strings, the conditional
probability matrix of the type

               f(g[x],g[y])
      C[x,y] = ------------
                 f(g[x])

can be calculated.

Once computed |C[x,y]| the values of the affinity functions W(x,y) and
W'(x,y) can be computed, as in the previous algorithms, using the
formulae:

             1      n    n   f(g[x](v[i],g[y](v[j]))
 w'(i,j) = ----  Sum  Sum   ------------------------
           2**n     x    y      f(g[x](v[i]))


           1
 w(i,j) = --- ( w'(i,j) + w'(j,i) )
           2

in which n is the total number of classifications.

This algorithm can be used, in a more general form, to chose synonyms in
word-by-word automatic translation. Consider sentence v[1] v[2] v[3] in
the source language; suppose that some automatic translation algorithm
gives for each word of the source text a set of equivalent translations,
i.e.:

      Source:  v[1]  v[2]   v[3]
      --------------------------
      Target:  v[1]         v[3]
               v[4]  v[2]
               v[6]         v[5]


A unique translation is obtained provided that only one "right"
equivalent is selected in each column. To do this, a vast amount of
information is needed. This information can be in the form of a set of
classifications corresponding to a set of equivalence relations on the
lexicon.

Those classifications are grammatical, lexical (as described above), and
semantic. A semantic class contains words which share common semantic
features. Thus for instance a classification based of the feature
"animate" will comprise three possible classes, the first comprising
word which designate animate beings, the second words which designate
inanimate objects, the third words which it would be meaningless to
assign to either of the previous two classes. Given n classifications
E[x], we can describe each word by a string of symbols S[x](v[i]) of
length n in which each symbol represents a class of the xth
classification to which v[i] belongs.

If we can attribute to each word of the target language its bundle of
classes, we can compute the values of the tie functions that can be
defined, as it was done in the previous algorithms.

We shall consider an acceptable solution to be a dependency tree the
nodes of which are equivalents in the target language of the words of
the source language taken one at a time in the column of our example and
containing all the possible trees:



      Source:  v[1]  v[2]   v[3]
      --------------------------
      Target:  v[1]         v[3]
               v[4]  v[2]
               v[6]         v[5]


An acceptable solution may look like this:

      Source:  v[1]  v[2]   v[3]
      --------------------------
      Target:  v[1]         v[3]
               v[4]  v[2]
               v[6]         v[5]

All other details of the procedure are then evidently emphasized: we
attribute a value of a tie function to each arc of the initial graph;
the objective function is equal to the sum of the weights of the arcs of
a tree; "light" arcs are eliminated until only those which connect
isolated nodes in each columns remain.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 20:08:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 09:54:23 EST
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Sukhotin: Algorith for translating syllabically...
Status: OR

       ALGORITHM FOR TRANSLATING SYLLABICALLY WRITTEN TEXTS
                   INTO PHONEMIC WRITING

         translation and comments by Jacques Guy


In a number of writing system a single symbol corresponds, not to
a single sound, but to a string of sounds (e.g. Linear B and Japanese).

The following algorithm is designed for such writing systems, where
a single symbol may represent a consonant followed by a vowel, or
a vowel alone, or a consonant alone (it also has interesting morphological
applications, which shall be discussed later).

The idea behind the algorithm is as follows:

Let S be the set of the symbols of the syllabary: S = { s[i] }, e.g.
S = { pa, pe, pi, po, pu, ta, te, ...}. Two equivalence relations in
S, E1 and E2, must be found. E1 is the relation of symbols containing
the same vowel (e.g. pa, ta, ka, da, ...), E2 the relation of symbols
containing the same consonant (e.g. da, de, di, do, ...).

Let the equivalence classes of E1 be represented by [a1], [a2], ..., [an],
and those of E2 by [b1], [b2], ..., [bn]. An ordered pair ([bi],[aj])
can now be associated to each symbol s[k] of the syllabary S, and the
set of the symbols [a1], [a2], ..., [an], [b1], [b2], ..., [bn] can be
considered to represent a phonemic alphabet A corresponding to the
syllabary S. The alphabet A may contain symbols corresponding to
no consonant (e.g. a) or no vowel (e.g. p).

SET OF ACCEPTABLE SOLUTIONS

E1 and E2 cannot be separately constructed; the pair E1, E2 must have a
certain property. Any pair of relations having this property constitutes
an acceptable solution.

If a relation E1 has m classes, no class of the other relation E2 can
have more than m elements.

Suppose that E1 had only two classes: the class of symbols having "a" for
vowel and the class of symbols having "i". Consider the class of the
symbols of E2 having "p" for consonant: it can contain only symbols
corresponding to "pa" and "pi".

Note that a new assumption has just been made: that the syllabary contains
no homophonous symbols. Consequently, if two symbols belong to the same
class of E1, they necessarily belong to different classes of E2, and
vice versa.


OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

FIRST CRITERION FOR AN OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

Consider the matrix T0 = f(s[i],s[j]) of the absolute frequencies of
occurrence of ordered pairs  (s[i],s[j]). Row i shows which symbols
of S occur following s[i], and in what proportions. Suppose that
s[i] has been deciphered as ([bk],[al]). It is reasonable to expect
the contents of row k to depend more on the occurrences of [al]
than on those of [bk]; rows corresponding to symbols representing
strings of sounds ending with [al] should therefore be similar.
Conversely, columns which correspond to strings of sounds starting
with the same consonant must be similar.

The similarity, or rather, dissimilarity, of rows and columns can
be estimated very naturally by the distance between points
in an n-dimensional space, leading to the following formulas for
rows (d1) and columns (d2):

                    n
 d1(s[i],s[j]) = Sum  Abs( f(s[i],s[k]) - f(s[j],s[k]) )        (1)
                  k=1

                    n
 d2(s[i],s[j]) = Sum  Abs( f(s[k],s[i]) - f(s[k],s[j]) )        (2)
                  k=1

Let T1 and T2 be the matrices of distances thus calculated, i.e.
T1 = d1(s[i],s[j]), T2 = d2(s[i],s[j]).

Under our hypothesis the distance between symbols of the same class
must be small. Therefore, for a classification (i.e. an ordered pair
of equivalence classes in the syllabary S) of syllabic symbols to
be "good", the sums of the main diagonals of T1 and T2 must not be too
high.  Call those sums Sum1 and Sum2.  Now, for any "good" classification
even the worse element of the pair cannot be too bad. This observation
leads to the following estimator of the quality of a classification
(E1,E2):

         Q(E1,E2) = max(Sum1,Sum2)                              (3)

Formula (3) suggests that the best classification (E1,E2) is the
acceptable solution for which Q(E1,E2) is minimum.


SECOND CRITERION FOR AN OBJECTIVE FUNCTION

Let us now turn to another property of acceptable solutions.

If a syllabary consisted of all possible combinations of a consonant
followed by a vowel, its cardinality would be the product of the
cardinalities of E1 and E2. Since syllabaries rarely consist of
all possible combinations this property is almost never encountered
in texts.

A consequence of this situation is that the product of the
cardinalities of the best classification less the cardinality
of the syllabary is equal to the number of "non-occurring" symbols.
Obviously, the less the number of such symbols, the better the
classification. Therefore  card(E1) card(E1) - card(S), or,
which is equivalent, card(E1)+card(E2) must be mininum.


DECIPHERMENT ALGORITHM

(* The description of the decipherment algorithm itself is so
obscure as to be completely incomprehensible, at least in the French
translation. Nevertheless, from the two criteria for the specification
of the objective function above, one can infer that it aims at
minimizing both Q(E1,E2) and card(E1)+card(E2) using what seems to
be linear programming. Sukhotin concludes: *)

It should be noted that this is a rather complex algorithm. It was
tested manually on restricted abstract examples but was not tried
on computer.

The algorithm has an interesting morphological interpretation.

Each word of a text can be considered to belong to one class of
some "grammatical classification" and to one class of some "lexical
classification". Appartenance to a grammatical class is sometimes,
but not always nor necessarily, marked by some grammatical affix.
When it is not, a zero affix may be posited. Appartenance to a
lexical class is marked by the presence of a root. Note that the
presence of a root is not obligatory either (it can be doubtful,
as in Latin trans-i-re). This situation is parallel to that found
in syllabaries, each syllabic symbol belonging to one class of
the symbols having the same vowel and to onr class of symbols
having the same consonant. We could say, by analogy, that syllabic
symbols are inflected, vowels corresponding to flections, consonants
to roots, and that a class of E2 is the paradigm of its consonant.

Matrix T0 is then the matrix of conditional probabilities of the
occurrence of a word v[j] in a sentence containing word v[i].
Words which are lexically similar should all be expected to condition
other words in the same ways and words which are grammatically similar
to be conditioned in the same ways by other words.

The interest of such a morphological analysis model lies in the
fact that it allows the discovery of zero morphemes, which the algorithm
for partitioning a text into morphemes could not do. This observation
suggests the following strategy in deciphering a text:

First, submit it the partitioning algorithm. Non-zero morphemes will thus
be identified.

Second, submit the partitioned text to this algorithm, to determine the
classes to which they belong, in order to identify zero morphemes.

Thirdly, submit the result to an algorithm which combinations of morphemes
(other than zero) constitute words.

Finally, submit the result to this algorithm again, to obtain the final
morphological classification.

It must be acknowledged, however, that this algorithm seems to be far too
expensive computationally to be practical for long texts, and would have to
be revised.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jun 25 20:29:04 1997
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	id AA06458; Thu, 26 Jun 97 10:14:23 EST
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 10:14:22 EST
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Sukhotin: That's all folks!
Status: OR

Today's two messages are the last of those files
salvaged from my old, old, Kaypro II diskettes.

For me now, it's back to continuing raising
Son of Glotto and his twin brother Son of Monkey.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 09:41:17 1997
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rmalek wrote:
> 
> I still believe a color photograph shoot is necessary, which
> will cost some $2,000 at last report.  If the slides, negatives or
> photographs are available, each of us can then use them in ways that suit
> both our equipment and our needs.
> 
> This is not an unreachable sum, and I have pretty much decided that after
> summer trips are out of the way, I will approach the Bienecke for a full
> color shoot.  I would like to use a professional photographer, which I hope
> they will not object to.  (I would like spectral images of the pages as
> well.)  A set of color negatives donated to the Bienecke for distribution
> would be an added incentive, I hope.

	The $2000 would be if Yale did the photography and everything else.  I
believe that they currently list color shots of the VMs as $15 per
page.  If we did the actual photographic work, we would only  have to
pay them for rights and supervision.  

	From the discussion so far on the list, high-quality analog color
photographs sure sounds like the way to go (assuming Yale will agree to
anything).  Offering them the negatives for free as an enticement sounds
like a very good idea.  

> Any ideas, anyone?  Last time I asked they said I had to at least be
> affiliated with a University in order to get the clearance.

	We certainly have people who are affiliated with universities.  Robert
Firth, Andras Kornai, and Gabriel Landini that I can think of.  

	Does anyone think that getting color images of the Petersen copy would
be worth the trouble?

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 12:35:03 1997
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From: Andras Kornai <kornai@bbn.com>
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Subject: Re: cd-ROMs
To: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:39:14 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <33B28CB1.403C@micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at Jun 26, 97 08:37:21 am
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Dennis writes:
> rmalek wrote:
> > This is not an unreachable sum, and I have pretty much decided that after
I'm willing to put in 5% of the total cost ($100 tops). 

> > (I would like spectral images of the pages as well.)  
Yes, yes, yes! UV, IR, X-ray, whichever shows something interesting. 

> 	The $2000 would be if Yale did the photography and everything else.  
They may be quite familiar with UV etc. techniques, and if this brings the 
cost back to $2k so be it. As an added incentive, I hereby designate my 5% 
as going specifically toward the non-visible wavelengths:-)

> 	We certainly have people who are affiliated with universities.  Robert
> Firth, Andras Kornai, and Gabriel Landini that I can think of.  
Being affiliated with a computer science department does not a respectable scholar
make. Would someone from the humanities please stand up? Jacques? 

Andras Kornai

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 13:20:53 1997
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Subject: Re: cd-ROMs
To: kornai@bbn.com (Andras Kornai)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:15:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: ixohoxi@micro-net.com, voynich@rand.org
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> > > (I would like spectral images of the pages as well.)  
> Yes, yes, yes! UV, IR, X-ray, whichever shows something interesting. 

To this end, I would like to suggest again that we find out if any
manufacturers of multispectral cameras might be willing to donate the use
of one for such a worthy (and good PR) endeavour.
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 15:29:05 1997
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:11:29 -0500
To: voynich@rand.org
From: dgd@cs.bu.edu (David G. Durand)
Subject: Re: cd-ROMs
Status: OR

   A few comments on making a facsimile. I'm not a medievalist (sorry) but
I worked on the Text Encoding Initiative, and my wife works for the
Scholarly Technology Group. We go to the Computing in the Humanities
conference yearly and have a fair amount of experience with this kind of
work. Peter Robinson of Oxford has written the standard work on the use of
images to support critical editions (he worked on the Beowulf edition, and
the Cambridge Chaucer, and will probably do others).

   The analog film _is_ the archival format. Don't worry about the digital
formats, they are not worth archiving at the present day. The cheapest
solution is probably Photo-CD -- if you send them the film to develop at
the same time as they make the disk it's a bit cheaper. Prices range from
$1.00 to $0.50 per slide. 100 pictures per disk. PhotoCD software is cheap,
and you can make PNG, GIF, etc. as you want for network distribution. Kodak
does have a special "scientific" photo-CD for super-high precision. Given
the conditions you would likely be shooting in (the library) it's unlikely
to be worthwhile unless you are doing the multispectral stuff (still film
first).

   Realistically, if you don't have a reputable scholar in the field to
back this you haven't got a prayer. To publish the work, Yale will want a
reputable press to sign on.

    Rare book libraries are funny places -- their intellectual property is
the images of their holdings -- as copywright is obviously lapsed. When I
was trying to get premission to use a reporductions of a book at Harvard as
an illustration for a book I wrote, they wouldn't let us use it because the
quality of our reproduction was not high enough to satisfy them -- this for
2 pages of a broadside (i.e. not artistically printed work) in a computer
book.

   They expect royalties on publications (a percentage, certainly, for a
facsimile edition).

   Publication of a manuscript facsimile generally increases awareness of
the manuscript and increases demands for scholars to examine it. Rayman's
comments about "acceptable quality" at very much the typical reaction -- no
facsimile is ever a replacement for the thing itself.

   Prof. Mathieson of Brown posted at one point to this list (expressing,
if I remember correctly, his opinion that the manuscript, if translated
would not be worth the trouble). On the other hand, he is the right sort of
specialist to rope in -- if he could be interested.

There are not many people who would present a credible face to Yale, and
they all have other things to do already -- but interesting one of them,
and doing the project as an academic one is the most likely path to a
facsimile if it can be done at all.

Yale may simply be uninterested in too close an examination of the
manuscript -- as an unsolved mystery it has value -- as a proven fraud, it
would have little. As a focus for non-professional study and attractor of
cranks (Terence McKenna's entertaining articles don't help the amateur
Voynich scholar's reputation any), the manuscript has more chance of
embarassing Yale than helping them. I'm not sure that the "success" of
Brumbaugh's translation has not also made them very dubious.

   I think that a facsimile (on the cheap) of Peterson is a more plausible
amateur option: the library is willing, the papers would have value in
facsimile (usable illustrations and color notations would help).

   I did try to interest some people at the last Association for Computing
in the Humanities conference -- and I'll raise the issue again.

    The hand-drawn facsimile has a long and respected history in manuscript
study -- sometimes (if drawn carefully, by a good observer) they are even
more useful than the original. I doubt that that is the case here, as
interpretation cannot intervene very critically in an undeciphered work..

   My ten cents.

  -- David

_________________________________________
David Durand              dgd@cs.bu.edu  \  david@dynamicDiagrams.com
Boston University Computer Science        \  Sr. Analyst
http://www.cs.bu.edu/students/grads/dgd/   \  Dynamic Diagrams
--------------------------------------------\  http://dynamicDiagrams.com/
MAPA: mapping for the WWW                    \__________________________


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 15:29:05 1997
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:11:29 -0500
To: voynich@rand.org
From: dgd@cs.bu.edu (David G. Durand)
Subject: Re: cd-ROMs
Status: OR

   A few comments on making a facsimile. I'm not a medievalist (sorry) but
I worked on the Text Encoding Initiative, and my wife works for the
Scholarly Technology Group. We go to the Computing in the Humanities
conference yearly and have a fair amount of experience with this kind of
work. Peter Robinson of Oxford has written the standard work on the use of
images to support critical editions (he worked on the Beowulf edition, and
the Cambridge Chaucer, and will probably do others).

   The analog film _is_ the archival format. Don't worry about the digital
formats, they are not worth archiving at the present day. The cheapest
solution is probably Photo-CD -- if you send them the film to develop at
the same time as they make the disk it's a bit cheaper. Prices range from
$1.00 to $0.50 per slide. 100 pictures per disk. PhotoCD software is cheap,
and you can make PNG, GIF, etc. as you want for network distribution. Kodak
does have a special "scientific" photo-CD for super-high precision. Given
the conditions you would likely be shooting in (the library) it's unlikely
to be worthwhile unless you are doing the multispectral stuff (still film
first).

   Realistically, if you don't have a reputable scholar in the field to
back this you haven't got a prayer. To publish the work, Yale will want a
reputable press to sign on.

    Rare book libraries are funny places -- their intellectual property is
the images of their holdings -- as copywright is obviously lapsed. When I
was trying to get premission to use a reporductions of a book at Harvard as
an illustration for a book I wrote, they wouldn't let us use it because the
quality of our reproduction was not high enough to satisfy them -- this for
2 pages of a broadside (i.e. not artistically printed work) in a computer
book.

   They expect royalties on publications (a percentage, certainly, for a
facsimile edition).

   Publication of a manuscript facsimile generally increases awareness of
the manuscript and increases demands for scholars to examine it. Rayman's
comments about "acceptable quality" at very much the typical reaction -- no
facsimile is ever a replacement for the thing itself.

   Prof. Mathieson of Brown posted at one point to this list (expressing,
if I remember correctly, his opinion that the manuscript, if translated
would not be worth the trouble). On the other hand, he is the right sort of
specialist to rope in -- if he could be interested.

There are not many people who would present a credible face to Yale, and
they all have other things to do already -- but interesting one of them,
and doing the project as an academic one is the most likely path to a
facsimile if it can be done at all.

Yale may simply be uninterested in too close an examination of the
manuscript -- as an unsolved mystery it has value -- as a proven fraud, it
would have little. As a focus for non-professional study and attractor of
cranks (Terence McKenna's entertaining articles don't help the amateur
Voynich scholar's reputation any), the manuscript has more chance of
embarassing Yale than helping them. I'm not sure that the "success" of
Brumbaugh's translation has not also made them very dubious.

   I think that a facsimile (on the cheap) of Peterson is a more plausible
amateur option: the library is willing, the papers would have value in
facsimile (usable illustrations and color notations would help).

   I did try to interest some people at the last Association for Computing
in the Humanities conference -- and I'll raise the issue again.

    The hand-drawn facsimile has a long and respected history in manuscript
study -- sometimes (if drawn carefully, by a good observer) they are even
more useful than the original. I doubt that that is the case here, as
interpretation cannot intervene very critically in an undeciphered work..

   My ten cents.

  -- David

_________________________________________
David Durand              dgd@cs.bu.edu  \  david@dynamicDiagrams.com
Boston University Computer Science        \  Sr. Analyst
http://www.cs.bu.edu/students/grads/dgd/   \  Dynamic Diagrams
--------------------------------------------\  http://dynamicDiagrams.com/
MAPA: mapping for the WWW                    \__________________________


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jun 26 18:32:04 1997
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Message-ID: <33B2EC8A.6C2AA634@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:26:20 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Status: OR

    Well, It's great to get a pile of VMs related E-mail and I like the
fact that many people are as interested in seeing colour as I am. For what
its worth, I really don't need super high quality and scientific scans of
the pages - I'd just be satisfied to have rough colour descriptions of all
the artwork. I'm especially curious about the colours that exist on the
calendar pages, including medieval dress, the barrels, stars... (Are all
dots in the stars-that-have-dots the same colour?).

                        John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jun 28 08:59:47 1997
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 20:44:54 -0500
To: dgd@cs.bu.edu (David G. Durand), voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: cd-ROMs
Cc: ixohoxi@micro-net.com
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afd8764d9699@[205.181.197.99]>
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Status: OR

	Many thanks for your comments, David!  

At 03:11 PM 6/26/97 -0500, David G. Durand wrote:

>   Publication of a manuscript facsimile generally increases awareness of
>the manuscript and increases demands for scholars to examine it. Rayman's
>comments about "acceptable quality" at very much the typical reaction -- no
>facsimile is ever a replacement for the thing itself.

	In the mail archives, Jim Reeds described his visit of July 1994 to look
at the VMs.  He was told that about 50 visitors a year look at the VMs.
Jim was afraid to unfold f85/6 himself.  Everyone worried about what 50
visitors per year might do to the VMs.  Does this mean that having a
high-quality copy would not solve that problem.  (See note below on
existing high-quality photostat negatives.)

>   Prof. Mathieson of Brown posted at one point to this list (expressing,
>if I remember correctly, his opinion that the manuscript, if translated
>would not be worth the trouble). On the other hand, he is the right sort of
>specialist to rope in -- if he could be interested.

	I don't recall that.  Robert Babcock told Jim that what was in the VMs
would not be worth the trouble, giving the example of Albertus Magnus.  On
the other hand, Yale has insured the VMs for 25 million US$.  I don't know
what's typical.  

>There are not many people who would present a credible face to Yale, and
>they all have other things to do already -- but interesting one of them,
>and doing the project as an academic one is the most likely path to a
>facsimile if it can be done at all.

	Yes.

>Yale may simply be uninterested in too close an examination of the
>manuscript -- as an unsolved mystery it has value -- as a proven fraud, it
>would have little. As a focus for non-professional study and attractor of
>cranks (Terence McKenna's entertaining articles don't help the amateur
>Voynich scholar's reputation any), the manuscript has more chance of
>embarassing Yale than helping them. I'm not sure that the "success" of
>Brumbaugh's translation has not also made them very dubious.

	Jim Reeds and Jacques Guy have published several articles on the VMs in
Cryptologia.  There are also the articles on the EVMT page.  Since you
mention McKenna, I've got a debunking of Levitov about done.  Those things
should at least show that we are not tea-leaves readers.  :-)  Of course,
we are not "official" scholars of the VMs.  (BTW, the results of such
official scholars as Newbold and Brumbaugh are not especially impressive.
;-)  )

>   I think that a facsimile (on the cheap) of Peterson is a more plausible
>amateur option: the library is willing, the papers would have value in
>facsimile (usable illustrations and color notations would help).

	Sounds sensible.  

	I also note from the mail archives:
>>
   The Beinecke also has an immense number of very clear photostat negatives.
   (Far clearer than the microfilm.)  These are the originals from which
   Petersen's & Friedman's photostat sets were derived.
>>

	These at least are already made, and would only have to be published.
However, you would have all the intellectual property issues with these as
you would with color photos.  
	
>   I did try to interest some people at the last Association for Computing
>in the Humanities conference -- and I'll raise the issue again.

	We'd appreciate it!

>    The hand-drawn facsimile has a long and respected history in manuscript
>study -- sometimes (if drawn carefully, by a good observer) they are even
>more useful than the original. I doubt that that is the case here, as
>interpretation cannot intervene very critically in an undeciphered work..

	It's a lot better than nothing!!!  Our transcription is necessarily based
on Petersen.  I'm with John Groves here; having any kind of color would
help.  So some sort of color distribution of Petersen would be worthwhile.  

	I've always wondered whether the VMs is a better work of art than it is
generally credited for.  It would take a genuinely high-quality
reproduction to know.  I guess that's a counsel of perfection.  

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jun 28 08:59:47 1997
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:04:59 -0500
To: dgd@cs.bu.edu (David G. Durand), voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: cd-ROMs
Cc: ixohoxi@micro-net.com
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Status: OR

	Many thanks for the comments, David!  

At 03:11 PM 6/26/97 -0500, David G. Durand wrote:

>   Realistically, if you don't have a reputable scholar in the field to
>back this you haven't got a prayer. To publish the work, Yale will want a
>reputable press to sign on.

>   Publication of a manuscript facsimile generally increases awareness of
>the manuscript and increases demands for scholars to examine it. Rayman's
>comments about "acceptable quality" at very much the typical reaction -- no
>facsimile is ever a replacement for the thing itself.

	In the mail archives Jim Reeds describes his visit to the VMs of July
1994.  He was then afraid to unfold some of the foldouts.  He was informed
that about 50 people a year look at the VMs.  We've worried about what that
might do to the VMs.  Does this mean that having a high-quality
reproductions might not help that problem?  It would probably satisfy all
but the most serious researchers, which I suspect are not the 50 people a
year.  (Also, see below about existing high-quality photostat negatives.)

>   Prof. Mathieson of Brown posted at one point to this list (expressing,
>if I remember correctly, his opinion that the manuscript, if translated
>would not be worth the trouble). On the other hand, he is the right sort of
>specialist to rope in -- if he could be interested.

	I don't recall him.  Yale told Jim that they didn't think that what's in
the VMs is worth the trouble, giving the example of Albertus Magnus.  OTOH,
they've insured it for $25 million US.  I don't know what's typical.  

>There are not many people who would present a credible face to Yale, and
>they all have other things to do already -- but interesting one of them,
>and doing the project as an academic one is the most likely path to a
>facsimile if it can be done at all.

	Yes.  I wonder about Sergio Toresella?

>Yale may simply be uninterested in too close an examination of the
>manuscript -- as an unsolved mystery it has value -- as a proven fraud, it
>would have little. As a focus for non-professional study and attractor of
>cranks (Terence McKenna's entertaining articles don't help the amateur
>Voynich scholar's reputation any), the manuscript has more chance of
>embarassing Yale than helping them. I'm not sure that the "success" of
>Brumbaugh's translation has not also made them very dubious.

	Jim Reeds and Jacques Guy have published articles on the VMs in
Cryptologia.  There are also the papers and software on the EVMT home page.
 Since you mention McKenna, I've got a debunking of Levitov about done.
Those things should make it clear that we are not just tea-leaves readers!
But we are still "amateurs".  :-(  BTW, the results of "official" scholars
such as Brumbaugh and Newbold are not especially impressive!  ;-)  

>   I think that a facsimile (on the cheap) of Peterson is a more plausible
>amateur option: the library is willing, the papers would have value in
>facsimile (usable illustrations and color notations would help).

	Yes!

>   I did try to interest some people at the last Association for Computing
>in the Humanities conference -- and I'll raise the issue again.

	We'd appreciate it!

>    The hand-drawn facsimile has a long and respected history in manuscript
>study -- sometimes (if drawn carefully, by a good observer) they are even
>more useful than the original. I doubt that that is the case here, as
>interpretation cannot intervene very critically in an undeciphered work..

	It's really all we've got -- our transcription is necessarily based on
Petersen!  I'm with John Grove; having some general color indications might
be all many of us would need.  So publishing Petersen in some fashion might
be worthwhile.

	I also see in the mail archives:
>>
   The Beinecke also has an immense number of very clear photostat negatives.
   (Far clearer than the microfilm.)  These are the originals from which
   Petersen's & Friedman's photostat sets were derived.
>>

	These are already made, so they would only have to be published.  However,
there would be all the same problems with intellectual property as with
color photos.  

	I've always wondered whether the VMs isn't a better piece of art than it's
credited for.  To know would take a high-quality reproduction.  I guess
that's a counsel of perfection.

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 04:38:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:39:02 -0700
To: voynich@rand.org
From: jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)
Subject: Image processing
Status: OR

The last round of posts have caught my attention as this is the side of the
voynich project that interests me. I am somewhat surprised no one has
mentoned DVD. Let me back up at bit though. The people who are reccomending
film source I agree with the most. Digital just is not there yet and is
more hype than substance. I have had the chance to play about with JPEG and
other related things as part od my work. I have also used Film/PhotoCD to
do image aquisition in some of my watchmaking projects. First off photoCD
is lossy, It like Jpeg uses a spacial transform of the data. What every
post is missing though is an understanding of color image capture theory.
Most of what I see are the common consumer RGB myths. In order for this to
work the image must be converted into a calibrated color space. I actually
like the Luma/chroma spaces most used in video processing. This puts most
of your bits into luma. The rest of the bits are used for chroma. The nice
thing is that the conversion to RGB is well understood. The CMYK conversion
is more diffucalt (Nonlinear) still it is doable.
Photo CD is a Luma/chroma system. So is NTSC and PAL tv systems. The Luma
carries the spacial information, chroma which is often subsampled to a
4:2:2 or a 4:2:0 distrribution (ie the chroma sample is not in the same
spacial area as the Luma; that there may be 4 luma samples to one chroma
sample interleaved)
Anyway the data compresses better this way. JPEG is actually a series of
algorythinm steps. The first is a freq/Spacial xform. Then the coef are
quantitised (the loss comes from these two steps). Then hufmann encoded.
Any of these can be tweeked. The problem is that no none really knows how
to run one of those 25 dollar compression programs. Default tables (based
on some pretty kodak pictures of typical natural scenes) get used.

So anyway what it all comes down to is the use of variable bit codes. The
question is can the image stand the spacial freq transform. Are the glyph
edges important enough to look at there frequency.


Anyway these are a few thoughts based on my playing about with photoCD and
image processing with the watchmaking. I think the work beeing done with
Petersen is more where the effort should be placed. If there is information
there I think it had more to do with relasonships of the symbols than their
construction.

The one thing though that images would be nice is in the display of the
drawings. I think though that traditional analysis (ie Film) is better
suited here. The computer is better at looking at the relations in the
text. Although it might be interesting to figure out a way to apply Monkey
and the various offspring to the pictures. ie treat each picture as a
letter or piece of information glyph. Or break the pictures down into their
respective strokes and fills. Then add color as another item of the
lexicon. Could a langauge be created that would tell someone who had not
seen one of these weird pictures how to re create one.

Oh well this is what one gets when posing at 1:30 Am. Spent most of the
eavening attending a lecture on the DVD authoring process. Now there is a
format that will hold the data. The upper potential is about 18GB although
the current production in closer to 4.5 or 7GB. That should hold most of
the pages at a decent resolution. Mastering costs are in the 5k to 15k
range.

-julieP
Ps: for the new people her see my website <http://www.webo.com/jporter> for
more info on my unusual interests other than this one.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 06:47:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:43:35 +0200
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As far as getting colour copies of Petersen are concerned,
I am (personally) sufficiently happy with the B/W copy I have.
Not very much can be gained from a colour CD version.
But the Marshall library are a helpful and forthcoming
organisation and probably the idea is partly coming from that
fact (it is nicer to consider options that are more likely to
be possible).
In that light I would like to remind people that the Marshall
library also has a complete copy of the VMs (probably the
source that FSG and SSG transcribed from). This is
reported to be much better than our Yale copies.
But obviously it is in B/W.
If anybody was considering taking his camera to the Marshall
foundation, I would personally hope he took photographs of
that, instead of Petersen.

Just MHO of course.

Cheers, Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 06:35:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:27:17 +0000
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Hi Julie and all,

On 27 Jun 97 at 1:39, Julie Porter wrote:
> The last round of posts have caught my attention as this is the side of the
> voynich project that interests me. I am somewhat surprised no one has
> mentoned DVD
[...]
> the pages at a decent resolution. Mastering costs are in the 5k to
> 15k range.

Well, that  *is* a  rea$on. :-)
I can get copies of CD's done at 4 pounds per disk (I know that 
this is not cheap, but this is a firm here that I know of, with 
time i may be able to find a cheaper one). If the CD is going to be 
made just for ourselves then there is no point making a master and 
pressed disks, but instead doing in CD-R.


> Let me back up at bit though. The people who are reccomending
> film source I agree with the most. Digital just is not there yet and is
> more hype than substance.

I agree with the first but not withthe send comment. 
There is no cheaper than distributing electronically. The quality 
will be exactly the same in each copy; makig copies of the negatives 
is going to cost more than the cost of the CD duplication for sure, 
and you will have to either scan them again or print them on paper. 
However I agree with the idea of getting one set of photographic 
negatives and then decide later what resolution we want for the 
digital images.

> First off photoCD
> is lossy, It like Jpeg uses a spacial transform of the data.

I did not know what the photoCD format was, so let's leave that out 
then. I still suggest 24 bit PNG.

> What every
> post is missing though is an understanding of color image capture theory.
> Most of what I see are the common consumer RGB myths. In order for this to
> work the image must be converted into a calibrated color space.
> I actually
> like the Luma/chroma spaces most used in video processing. This puts most
> of your bits into luma. The rest of the bits are used for chroma. The nice
> thing is that the conversion to RGB is well understood. The CMYK conversion
> is more diffucalt (Nonlinear) still it is doable.

Maybe I am talking rubbish here, but the capture system is 
independent of the format in which you will handle the data later. 
You can convert RGB into CMYK anytime. How do you propose to get 
an image in digital format?

> Anyway the data compresses better this way. JPEG is actually a series of
> algorythinm steps. The first is a freq/Spacial xform. Then the coef are
> quantitised (the loss comes from these two steps). Then hufmann encoded.
> Any of these can be tweeked. The problem is that no none really knows how
> to run one of those 25 dollar compression programs.

I agree with you. There is no point in lossy-compressing images. 
Same in medical imaging, nobody wants images that have encoding 
artifacts. Imagine, Oops, sorry Mr. X, we shouldn't have removed this 
bit of your brain, it was an image artifact! :-)

About getting the Petersen documents, I would probably be interested 
in a CD copy of the originals,  but I want the be able to see the 
real thing!! The photocopies of the P transcription are good enough
to be read and bad enough to prevent any automatic processing.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 30 09:14:12 1997
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Dennis writes:

 > 2)  Since they would be artistic reconstructions, Yale would
 > have no control over them, much as with Petersen's hand copy.
 >  They would be the property of whoever did them.

 I sincerely doubt this is correct. I think one is allowed
 to be inspired by the VMs, but not to make an exact copy
 of it. You can make music in the style of the beatles
 but if you sell CD's with you singing their songs,
 someone who is 'BAD' will come after you.

 Cheers, Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 08:38:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:35:30 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@MICRO-NET.COM>
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Hi, Julie!  I was hoping you would speak up.  

Julie Porter wrote:
> 
> The one thing though that images would be nice is in the display of the
> drawings. I think though that traditional analysis (ie Film) is better
> suited here. The computer is better at looking at the relations in the
> text. Although it might be interesting to figure out a way to apply Monkey
> and the various offspring to the pictures. ie treat each picture as a
> letter or piece of information glyph. Or break the pictures down into their
> respective strokes and fills. Then add color as another item of the
> lexicon. Could a langauge be created that would tell someone who had not
> seen one of these weird pictures how to re create one.

	This is as good a place as any to mention one of my fantasies.  I'm an
engineer and as such am somewhat familiar with CAD programs and vector
graphics.  

	I've thought it would be interesting to do artistic reconstructions of
Voynich folios using a vector graphics package such as Adobe
Illustrator, CorelDraw, or CorelXara.  Such a program represents images
with underlying formulas for circles, lines, curves, etc., instead of
bitmaps.  Thus (ideally) an image is totally scalable, as are computer
fonts such as the excellent Voynich font you designed for us.  In fact,
one would use the Voynich fonts to represent text in the images I have
in mind.   

	This would not be like taking photographs; rather it would be a
re-drawing of the Voynich Ms. images much as Petersen did.  It would
involve about as much effort, although it obviously would be vastly
easier for someone like you with artistic experience than for someone
like me.  

	The advantages of vector graphics files like this would be:

	1)  They would (ideally) be scalable.  We could make Voynich posters as
well as page-size images for study.  I like the idea of selling posters
of some of the rosettes!  :-)

	2)  Since they would be artistic reconstructions, Yale would have no
control over them, much as with Petersen's hand copy.  They would be the
property of whoever did them.  

	3)  The computer file would be much smaller than the other types of
files.  At present, this advantage is only apparent, since you would
need the advanced software to render the image.  (CorelXara has this
capability.)  Of course, with the right software you could produce jpg's
or whatever you wanted to put on the Web.  I gather that even that would
be chancey with the current software.  

	Any thoughts?

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 08:41:04 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> In that light I would like to remind people that the Marshall
> library also has a complete copy of the VMs (probably the
> source that FSG and SSG transcribed from). This is
> reported to be much better than our Yale copies.
> But obviously it is in B/W.

	Wow!  I didn't know about this!  *That's* what we should try to
publish!  

	I had read in the mail archives that Yale has high-quality photostat
negatives that are much better than what they've given us, but of course
those negatives are still under Yale's control.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 08:53:04 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Thanks for your excellent comments, David!

David G. Durand wrote:
> 
>    Realistically, if you don't have a reputable scholar in the field to
> back this you haven't got a prayer. To publish the work, Yale will want a
> reputable press to sign on.

	Yes.  You mention Mathieson below.  I also wonder about Sergio
Toresella?

>    Publication of a manuscript facsimile generally increases awareness of
> the manuscript and increases demands for scholars to examine it. Rayman's
> comments about "acceptable quality" at very much the typical reaction -- no
> facsimile is ever a replacement for the thing itself.

	Yale has about 50 visitors a year looking at the VMs, and we're
concerned about the safety of the VMs.  Yet surely a good-quality copy
would satisfy most of the current visitors, who probably aren't serious
scholars -  but I guess Yale thinks we aren't either.  :-(

>    Prof. Mathieson of Brown posted at one point to this list (expressing,
> if I remember correctly, his opinion that the manuscript, if translated
> would not be worth the trouble). 

	Robert Babcock at Yale also expressed that opinion.  Yale has insured
the VMs for $25 million US.  Is that typical?

> There are not many people who would present a credible face to Yale, and
> they all have other things to do already -- but interesting one of them,
> and doing the project as an academic one is the most likely path to a
> facsimile if it can be done at all.
> 
> Yale may simply be uninterested in too close an examination of the
> manuscript -- as an unsolved mystery it has value -- as a proven fraud, it
> would have little. As a focus for non-professional study and attractor of
> cranks (Terence McKenna's entertaining articles don't help the amateur
> Voynich scholar's reputation any), the manuscript has more chance of
> embarassing Yale than helping them. I'm not sure that the "success" of
> Brumbaugh's translation has not also made them very dubious.

	Jim Reeds and Jacques Guy have published papers on the VMs in
Cryptologia.  There are also the papers and software on the EVMT page. 
Since you mention McKenna, I've got a Levitov debunking almost done. 
Those things at least show that we aren't tea-leaves readers!  ;-) 
We've done the best scientific work to date, whether it's "official" or
not.  

>    I think that a facsimile (on the cheap) of Peterson is a more plausible
> amateur option: the library is willing, the papers would have value in
> facsimile (usable illustrations and color notations would help).

	I'm with John Groves here -- any color would be good to have.  We could
also use it for the artistic reconstructions I discuss in another post.  

>    I did try to interest some people at the last Association for Computing
> in the Humanities conference -- and I'll raise the issue again.

	Thanks - we'd appreciate it!

>     The hand-drawn facsimile has a long and respected history in manuscript
> study -- sometimes (if drawn carefully, by a good observer) they are even
> more useful than the original. I doubt that that is the case here, as
> interpretation cannot intervene very critically in an undeciphered work..

	We're dependent on Petersen for our transcription in any case. 
Petersen offers a lot of useful interpretation with his copy.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 12:35:02 1997
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From: Mark Parry <mparry@mertec.co.uk>
To: "'voynich@rand.org'" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Chinese Gold Bars
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:21:25 +0100
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Hi,

I realize this is off the plot a bit, but has anyone any thoughts on the Chinese Gold Bar Cryptograms.

They can be found at the following site.

http://www.iacr.org/china/cryptograms.html

If you want to keep it off the list I'm ok with private email

Mark


Mark Parry
Technical Director
Mertec Computers PLC

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jun 27 01:26:03 1997
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Home Page:  http://linguistlist.org/


Editor for this issue: Ann Dizdar <ann@linguistlist.org>



1)
Date:  Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:11:18 -0500
From:  Mark Mandel <Mark@dragonsys.com>
Subject:   Sum: 8.797 Language identification

-------------------------------- Message 1 -------------------------------

Date:  Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:11:18 -0500
From:  Mark Mandel <Mark@dragonsys.com>
Subject:   Sum: 8.797 Language identification

In LINGUIST #8.797 I asked:

>    An acquaintance of my daughter's writes:
>
>     ===================================
>
>     Identify this language please?
>
>    "Idolem urodo iatu a wi rot
>     Ukufu kush onuoy nehawuoch
>     Etia di ukoik ura nakurah
>     Enadu yoimi nnesar urugem
>     Eteako ich atak
>     Ureatu tso oodah
>     Amia wibo koro yonneie"
>
>    I think I have a pretty good idea of what languages this is *not* (not
>    a Romance language, not Germanic, not Slavic, not Chinese, Japanese,
>    Vietnamese...).  Also, if it translates to something really corny,
>    lemme know so I can stop embarrassing myself every time I sing it.

I received replies from five people, four of whom offered
information.

Gregory F. Roberts <robertsg@gusun.georgetown.ed> and
Douglas Dee <Douglas.Dee@us.coopers.com> pointed me to a Web site
maintained by Nora E. Stevens,
    www-personal.umich.edu/~nstevens/harukanaru.html  ,
that shows the text and explains it as the reverse of

>        Tori wa utai odoru melodi,
>        Chouwa hen no shukufuku.
>        Harukanaru kioku idaite,
>        Meguru rasen ni mioyudane.
>        Katachi o kaete--
>        Hadoo o tsutaeru.
>        Eien no yorokobi wa ima

Roberts adds:

>    They are lyrics from a role playing game called the Final
>    Fantasy by Squaresoft.

[And indeed, that is what the Web site is dedicated to. The main
page of the site
        http://www-personal.umich.edu/~nstevens/fflyrics.html
is titled

>                      Welcome to the Opera House
>            Featuring the lyrics to the sweet melodies
>                      of the Final Fantasy series

and it gives lyrics in English, Japanese (Romaji), Portuguese,
Italian, French, and Saami, as well as many audio files of music
(without words).]

Leon A Serafim <serafim@hawaii.edu> also recognized it as
"Japanese written in mirror image."

The fullest response came from Tomoyuki Kubo
<kubo@fukuoka-edu.ac.jp>, who kindly gave me permission to quote
this response:

>    It is the Esenapaj language,
>    which is the mirror image of Japanese,
>    with different word boundaries.
>
>    The mirror image of this language is;
>
>     Tori wa utai odoru melodii         *
>     Chou wa hen'you no shukufuku       *
>     Harukanaru kioku idaite
>     Meguru rasen ni mi o yudane        *
>     Katachi o kaete
>     Hadoo o tsutaeru
>     Eien no yorokobi wa ima


(Asterisks added.) Apart from punctuation, Kubo's reversal differs
from Stevens's (which Kubo did not appear to be aware of) in the
starred lines. I am inclined to prefer Kubo's analysis, which I
infer is native while Stevens credits several other people for
help with her translations.

[* Damn and blast Indo-European obligatory pronoun gender! Just
because I don't know whether Kubo is male or female, I have to
contort my syntax to avoid specifying it.]

None of the respondents attempted to translate the text. I took
Kubo's version to a Japanese co-worker, who shook her head over
it and chuckled. "It isn't really coherent sentences," she said
[approximately], "and in some places it's ambiguous. It could be a
joke on someone trying to be pompous, but it sounds about as
stupid as a lot of Japanese lyrics." Here is my transcription of
her translations:

        The bird sings and dances to the melody.
        Butterfly blesses the metamorphosis
        hoarding far memory
        entrusting the body to a spiraling helix
        changing shape
        transmit the wave [or "undulation"]
        eternal happiness is here

Thanks to all who replied!

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark@dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINGUIST List: Vol-8-931

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun 29 00:47:04 1997
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>From a novel, "The Tortuous Serpent: An Occult Adventure," by 
Donald Tyson (LLewelyn Books, #K-743.) 
    
--------------     
    
    Searching the edges of the leaves for some invisible book mark, 
Rabbi Loew opened the great book from left to right.  It groaned and 
creaked as though complaining about this unaccustomed attention.  
Kelley saw that its vellum leaves were hand-lettered with Hebrew in 
black and red, with illuminated boxed capitals at the head of each 
page.  Rabbi Loew turned several pages to reveal an illustration that 
occupied a full page. 
    
    "What a beautiful work," Dr. dee murmured, leaning forward to 
examine it.  
    
    "Arabic," Loew said.  "This book was made in Baghdad in the Ninth 
century of the Christian era by a secret Kabbalist sect."
    
    Bright reds and greens leapt out from a background of gold leaf 
and a silvery material that appeared to Kelley's precticed alchemical 
eye to be some variety of fixed mercury.  The illumination depicted 
the seated figure of a woman.  The upper half of ther body was 
humanoid; the lower half divided into two coiling serpent tails.  It 
was hghly stylized.  Her hair showed an array of eleven vipers raised 
as though to strike.  Her arms were curling arabesques that spiralled 
in opposite directions. Similar spirals defined her breasts.  
    
    "The degenerate sect of Hebrew Gnostics that made this book 
worshiped this creature as their supreme goddess," Rabbi Loew said. 
    
    "Lilith," Dee muttered in a quiet voice, as though feraful of 
invoking the spirit.
    
    He bent over the iamge and studied its details with an expression 
of distaste.  A miasma of ancient evil breathed from the vellum page.  
Sudeenly Dee snatched his face back and stared at Loew.  The Rabbi 
nodded.  
    
    "If you look at it for more than fa few momemnts, it moves."

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jun 29 00:50:17 1997
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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:36:32 -0500
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http://www.brotherblue.org/bbindex.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 30 13:59:18 1997
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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:53:47 -0700
From: Luis Velez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve>
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Organization: t-net
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Subject: A definition of Glossolalia?
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Given the recent studies in re: glossolalia and the announced
birth of 'Son of Glotto', I found this piece on the Web and thought it
might be of interest to the Group:

"Glossolalia (i.e., speaking in tongues) is vocalization that sounds
languagelike but is devoid of semantic meaning or syntax. In the
Christian tradition this vocalization pattern is associated with the
ideas of possession by the Holy Spirit and communication with God
through prayer or prophecy. Some scientific investigators
conceptualize glossolalia as the product of an altered or dissociated
state of consciousness, whereas others view it as symptomatic of
psychopathology. 

     "The available empirical data fail to support either of these
     hypotheses. For example, both ethnographic observations and
     experimental findings indicate that glossolalia can occur in the
     absence of kinetic activity, disorientation, and other purported
     indexes of trance, and that experienced glossolalics do not differ
     from nonglossolalic controls on measures of absorption in
     subjective experience and hypnotic susceptibility. Relatedly, the
     available empirical data fail to support the hypothesis that
     glossolalics suffer higher levels of psychopathology than
     nonglossolalics."

Spanos et al then go on to detail their own research, in which they
tried to teach glossolalia as a learnable skill. First, 60 subjects
listened to a 60-second sample of genuine glossolalia. All subjects then
tried to speak in tongues for 30 seconds. Some 20% spoke in tongues
immediately without further training. The subjects were then divided
into a control group and a group that received various kinds of
training. Tests then showed that 70% of the trained subjects were now
fluent (?) in glossolalia. Glossolalia, therefore, seems likely to be a
type of learned behavior rather than a special altered state of mind. 

(Spanos, Nicholas P., et al; "Glossolalia as Learned Behavior: An
Experimental Demonstration," Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 95:21,
1986.) 

>From Science Frontiers #51, MAY-JUN 1987.  1997 William R. Corliss

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 30 15:23:04 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Much thanks, Luis!  Here's an interesting link on glossolalia:

http://www.berkshire.net/~ifas/wa/glossolalia.html

Two interesting excerpts:

"Syntactical analyses of glossolalia have yielded no linguistic patterns
of tongue-speakers.  Unfortunately, the architecture of a glossolalia
blurb is rather inscrutable and nearly impossible to break down into
sentences or phrases. And yet, most listeners and linguists agree that
speakers of tongues incporate grammatical elements into their speech
that would seem to be indicators of a syntactical arrangement. There are
the necessary inflections and pauses and rhythmic cadences that appear
to organize the verbiage into macrosegments (sentences), microsegments
(words), phonemes. One theory explains the metered vocalization as
symptomatic of a rhythmical discharge of subcortical strucutres
operating during a trance state. If speech is biologically interrupted,
it could appear to be a sentence pause. It would certainly be hard to
catch "words" being cut off or notice illogical breaks in expression
when neither can be identified."

	Sounds like a job for Son of Glotto!  Also:

"The strongest correlation between glossolalia and language comes from
an analysis of phonemes. As mentioned previously, it is statistically
probably that glossolalists will reiterate familiar consonant, vowel, or
diphthong sounds simly because the vocal tract can only produce a finite
base of phonemes. If, however, the tongues of angels is a language
unique and apart from all the other known languages in the world, then
one would expect glossolalists to reproduce significantly fewer phonemes
from his or her native language. This is exactly what Michael T. Motley
found in his case study of a 61-year-old male Pentecostal. On the basis
of his phonetic analysis, he concluded that glossolalia is
language-like. Ultimately, however, he could not concede that
glossolalia is a language."  

	
	I analyzed a sample of schizophrenic rant and found that its entropy
was higher than that of normal English.  Thus that's not a candidate for
Voynichese.  I'd like to analyze samples of glossolalia and see how
their entropy compares to normal speech.  Does anyone have or know of
glossolalia typescripts?

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 30 19:05:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 15:53:31 PDT
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <9706302253.AA08889@mentat.com>
To: ilumnate@tcd.net
Subject: Re: Lies of CNN
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Status: OR

Jeff: 

This is way off-topic for the Voynich Ms. mailing list.  Don't do it again.

	Jim Gillogly
	Fascist List Administrator

--------------------------------------------------------------------
> To everyone in my address file,
> 
> Today I've been watching CNN's coverage of the Hong Kong surrender. In
...
> 
> Jeff G.
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jun 30 18:56:03 1997
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To everyone in my address file,

Today I've been watching CNN's coverage of the Hong Kong surrender. In
the half hour of 16:00 to 16:30 MDT - four times CNN reported "Look how
the soldiers are wearing ties. The soldiers have no guns. It certainly
is a peaceful change of power." They were lying to our faces even as
they rolled the contradictory LIVE pictures. During the very few
close-ups on the soldiers in the trucks you could plainly SEE the guns
being held in front of EACH soldier. See the video for yourself and then
ask yourself why is the American media so bent on making this a "nice"
story - to the point of lying about it?

Jeff G.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul  1 10:20:05 1997
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Lingua Ignota
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5383/ignota.html

Drawings by Hildegard of Bingen (sometimes resemble VMs images)
http://www.millersv.edu/~english/homepage/duncan/medfem/hildeg.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul  1 13:20:07 1997
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From: Don LaVange <DLAVANGE@novell.com>
To: Sharon_Duso@7habits.com, PBrown1@fscnet.com, whitetek@hooked.net,
        PeteBrown@hotmail.com, tandem@ids.net, dgallagr@itsnet.com,
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One is tempted often to lay motive at the feet of the media, when boredom
and stupidity is more to the point.  Perhaps Jeff, they didn't see the guns.
 Perhaps, no one saw them but you ;^) ?  Truth is rarely as interesting as
paranoia!

That said, I think that it is high time her royal highness was sent packing
from the east, for good.  Let the people in China decide what they want, as
will we.

Don

Don LaVange
dlavange@novell.com
http://gwresearch.orem.novell.com

"here are the bickerings of the inconsequential.
The Chatterings of the ridiculous, the iterations
 of the meaningless."                    Conrad Aiken


>>> <ilumnate@tcd.net> 06/30 4:54 PM >>>
To everyone in my address file,

Today I've been watching CNN's coverage of the Hong Kong surrender. In
the half hour of 16:00 to 16:30 MDT - four times CNN reported "Look how
the soldiers are wearing ties. The soldiers have no guns. It certainly
is a peaceful change of power." They were lying to our faces even as
they rolled the contradictory LIVE pictures. During the very few
close-ups on the soldiers in the trucks you could plainly SEE the guns
being held in front of EACH soldier. See the video for yourself and then
ask yourself why is the American media so bent on making this a "nice"
story - to the point of lying about it?

Jeff G.
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
           

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 00:11:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 22:29:07 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Tiltman's Paradigm:  % of Text
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Status: OR

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------2766118F32F3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Brigadier John H. Tiltman found a paradigm, listed below, for much 
of the VMs text.  
    
    I've attempted to calculate how much of the text the Tiltman 
paradigm accounts for.  I used BITRANS to delete everything that
conforms 
to Tiltman's paradigm from sample Voynich text files and compared 
file sizes before and after.   

    For the newcomers: BITRANS is an MS-DOS computer program by 
Jacques Guy that we use to interchange files between the several 
transcription alphabets in use for the VMs.  However, BITRANS will do 
many other rule-based substitutions as well.  You can use it to test 
your favorite theories about the VMs!  You can find it at: 

EVMT Project Home Page
http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm


D'Imperio Fig. 27 -- Tiltman's Division of Common Words into "Roots" 
and "Suffixes" (Tiltman 1951) (Currier's Transliteration) 

Roots                  Suffixes

OF-, OV-              -AD, -AN, -AM, -A3
OP-, OB-              -AR, -AT, -AU, -A0
4OF-, 4OV-            -AE, -AG, -AH, -A1
4OP-, 4OB-            -OR
S-                    -OE
Z-                    -C9, -CC9, -CCC9
8-                    -C89, -CC89, -CCC89
2-


    I deleted the roots wherever they occured.  I deleted the 
suffixes only if a word boundary (space) followed them.   

    Deleting the Tiltman paradigm elements deletes some words 
completely.  Because of that, I made copies of both the source 
files and the files without the Tiltman components and then removed all 
spaces from the copy files.  I believe that comparing the files 
without spaces is the most valid comparison.

    
                    File Size (bytes)   Tiltman
                    ----------------   Paradigm  
                     before   after   (% of text)         
                    --------  ------  -----------
Voynich Herbal A
 - with spaces       11252      5707
 - without spaces     8474      2929     65.4
     
Voynich Herbal B   
 - with spaces       15136      7441
 - without spaces    11812      4117     65.1


    Thus the Tiltman paradigm accounts for 65% of the text, exclusive 
of word divisions.  It's surprising how close the percentagees for A 
and B are.  
    
Dennis

--------------2766118F32F3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="tiltman.bit"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tiltman.bit"

(comment) D'Imperio Fig. 27 -- Tiltman's Division of 
(comment) Common Words into "Roots" and "Suffixes" (Tiltman 1951) 
(comment) Currier's Transliteration
(comment) Roots (may occur in any context)
OF (zero)
OV (zero)
OP (zero)
OB (zero)
4OF (zero)
4OV (zero)
4OP (zero)
4OB (zero)
S (zero)
Z (zero)
8 (zero)
2 (zero)
(comment) Suffixes (must be word-final)
AD# (zero)
AN# (zero)
AM# (zero)
A3# (zero)
AR# (zero)
AT# (zero)
AU# (zero)
A0# (zero)
AE# (zero)
AG# (zero)
AH# (zero)
A1# (zero)
OR# (zero)
OE# (zero)
C9# (zero)
CC9# (zero)
CCC9 (zero)
C89# (zero)
CC89# (zero)
CCC89# (zero)

--------------2766118F32F3--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 03:23:02 1997
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Subject: Re: Hildegard of Bingen
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Dear all,

> JPL "Journal of Planned Languages", no longer produced.
> I had a look of course, and I was struck by the surface
> similarity of this language with Enochian. Perhaps
> Dee had something about lingua ignota in his library.

I've been wondering about a related question. How much
was known of Hildegarde's lingua ignota through the
centuries immediately following her? Always everything,
or is this something that has been recently rediscovered?

The doubtful (IHMO) similarities between her drawings
and those of the VMs aside, her l.ignota may have
inspired the VMs author (for the time assuming this
was not Dee or one of his skryers) to devise a
l. ignotissima. The arguments given by Manders for
H's l.ignota not being intended as a universal language
do not all apply to the VMs (we have no documented
contemporary discussions about it) but in a limited
sense they may be used also as an indication that
the VMs language intended to hide its meaning rather
than to devise a universal language, despite D'Imperio's
arguments. (Voynichese is certainly much more successful
as a secret language than as a universal language).

Of course, Jacques' argument may also be looked at from
another viewpoint. After all, Enochian is the language
of the angels, and is it not reasonable to assume that
Hildegarde also communicated with the angels? Or
perhaps Dee and/or Kelley suffered a similar type of
migraine...

More seriously, it seems clear that I am in a rather
good position (location) to find out a bit more about
the history of the knowledge of the l.ignota and will
check it out if there is an interest.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 12:47:08 1997
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From: Luis Velez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve>
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> Seeing the Mandarin list, it occurred to me that the
> interchangability of S- and Z- in Voynichese could
> be reflections of Mandarin l- and r-... (another shot
> in the dark).

Could that same "interchangeability" factor be deemed as an
involuntary inconsistency of the scribe's knowledge of Voynichese,
(like a typo?) or would it seem to point more to a conscious handling of
the language/cypher, aimed at confusing even more the undesirable
interpreter? Or is it perhaps merely another feature of the script?

Statistics for this phenomena would interesting to glance at...

Luis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 13:08:04 1997
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Dennis and Jacques were discussing the Tiltman
paradigm:

>> In fact that is what prompted my zany "Marco Polo"
>> theory several years ago. But, seriously, this
>> business of "roots" and "suffixes" would be a good
>> reason to believe that spaces delimit syllables, not
>> words. Or that Voynichese is mostly monosyllabic.
>> In either case, it shows that there are great
>> constraints as to what may start and what may end
>> a syllable. Lots of languages have such constraints.

> I'm increasingly thinking that spaces delimit syllables

Many Voynich words are too long to be single syllables.
Voynich words of more than 10 characters do exist
(especially when written in EVA).
Thus, spaces are likely not to be indicated consistently
in the Ms. They certainly have not been consistently
transcribed, and often the mere presence of an 8AM group
prompted the transcriber to insert a space after it.
Also, characters like (Currier) 2 need some space to
the left to accommodate for the curl. The VMs writer
provided this space, and often it is not clear whether
a word space or just a 'flourish space' is left on the line.

> However, we're seeing more and more of a pure European
> origin for the VMs script

Of the script: yes. But *what* is being expressed by the
script is not necessarily European in origin. Some great
travels were made prior to 1460. Also, many languages have
ceased to exist since then.

>> Coming back to Tiltman's list, I'll let you into
>> a secret: I have often toyed with the notion that
>> final -89 represents -ng (and final -9 -n). And
>> that C, CC, and CCC before it are respectively
>> i, a, and ia. But don't think for one moment that
>> there is anything there other than a pure guess,
>> a shot in the dark.

Seeing the Mandarin list, it occurred to me that the
interchangability of S- and Z- in Voynichese could
be reflections of Mandarin l- and r-... (another shot
in the dark).

While playing with BITRANS some time ago, I ended up
with a transcription alphabet somewhere between Currier
and EVA, that resulted in Voynichese reminding me a lot
of the menu of our local Thai restaurant. Now only
if Thai had an h2 of around 2.45....

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 12:53:29 1997
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From: Andras Kornai <kornai@bbn.com>
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Subject: TPJ
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The variety of skills of this little group, VMS-related and otherwise, never
ceases to amaze me. I just opened The Perl Journal to find a very well written
article on 3D graphics by our very own Alligator Descartes. Check it out. 
Andras Kornai

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 12:44:33 1997
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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:32:10 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@MICRO-NET.COM>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> More seriously, it seems clear that I am in a rather
> good position (location) to find out a bit more about
> the history of the knowledge of the l.ignota and will
> check it out if there is an interest.

	I'm interested!  By all means find out what you can.  

	The article implies that Lingua Ignota was consciously constructed.  I
had always assumed that Lingua Ignota was produced in a trance state. 
Helene Smith's Martian language was like this - she produced it under
hypnosis.  

	I've always wondered whether Kelley didn't produce Enochian on an
unconscious level, in some sort of trance state, rather than consciously
fabricating a fraud.

	An even more interesting possibility.  I recently read an investigation
of religious miracles, *The Hiding Places of God* by John Cornwell.  He
watched the Medjugorje visionaries from a close distance while they were
having a vision.  They fell to their knees in unison, and then they
"spoke" soundlessly - their speech organs moved without emitting sound -
exactly in turn, as  though they were speaking to the Virgin Mary in
turn.  Cornwell thought they might be giving each other cues
unconsciously.  

	Dee and Kelley might have done the same thing - colluded on an
unconscious level.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 13:05:17 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@MICRO-NET.COM>
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Status: OR

Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> Dennis wrote:
> >Brigadier John H. Tiltman found a paradigm, listed below, for much
> >of the VMs text.
> 
> >Roots                  Suffixes
> 
> >OF-, OV-              -AD, -AN, -AM, -A3
> >OP-, OB-              -AR, -AT, -AU, -A0
> >4OF-, 4OV-            -AE, -AG, -AH, -A1
> >4OP-, 4OB-            -OR
> >S-                    -OE
> >Z-                    -C9, -CC9, -CCC9
> >8-                    -C89, -CC89, -CCC89
> >2-
> 
> I have already written it in this list, a long time
> ago, so I will repeat it. It is strangely reminiscent
> of Mandarin Chinese.
> 
> Roots (called "initials")   Suffixes (called "finals")
> 
> b-, p-, m-, f-              -a, -ai, -an, -ang
> d-, t-, n-,                 -e, -ei, -en, -eng
> g-, k-, h-                  -o, -ou, -ong
> z-, c-, s-                  -ua, -uai, -uan, -uang
> zh-, ch-, sh-               -uei, -uen,
> j-, q-, x-                  -ia, -ian, -iang
> l-, r-                      -ie, -iou, -iong
> 
> (I might have forgotten a few)
> 
> Take one from the roots, one from the suffixes, and
> you get a Chinese syllable. (Some combinations are
> not allowed, though). If my list is incomplete
> (it is, I forgot the  series), then it would account
> for x% of a Chinese text.
> 
> In fact that is what prompted my zany "Marco Polo"
> theory several years ago. But, seriously, this
> business of "roots" and "suffixes" would be a good
> reason to believe that spaces delimit syllables, not
> words. Or that Voynichese is mostly monosyllabic.
> In either case, it shows that there are great
> constraints as to what may start and what may end
> a syllable. Lots of languages have such constraints.

	I'm increasingly thinking that spaces delimit syllables.  You've
pointed out that the letters that end syllables often end with a
flourish.  We've thought that the spaces might be due to constraints on
letter contact, as in Arabic.  However, we're seeing more and more of a
pure European origin for the VMs script  

	I also think of my idea that spaces delimiting syllables might indicate
that the underlying language is medieval French.  Most morphemes in
spoken French are bound.  The syllabic stress within words, if it is
there at all, is weak.  Thus words in spoken French are not clearly
marked out.  Not many European languages are like this.  That could make
French a more likely candidate.  

	And where in northern Italy is French (as opposed to Provencal)
spoken?  

	AOSTA!  
	
	"Many a truth is spoken in doggerel."  - Czech proverb.

> Coming back to Tiltman's list, I'll let you into
> a secret: I have often toyed with the notion that
> final -89 represents -ng (and final -9 -n). And
> that C, CC, and CCC before it are respectively
> i, a, and ia. But don't think for one moment that
> there is anything there other than a pure guess,
> a shot in the dark.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul  1 19:56:02 1997
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To: Dennis <voynich@rand.org>
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hildegard of Bingen
Status: OR


>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5383/ignota.html

JPL "Journal of Planned Languages", no longer produced.
I had a look of course, and I was struck by the surface
similarity of this language with Enochian. Perhaps
Dee had something about lingua ignota in his library.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 12:41:06 1997
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From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Tiltman's Paradigm: % of Text
Status: OR

Rene quotes Dennis/Jacques:
> >> In either case, it shows that there are great
> >> constraints as to what may start and what may end
> >> a syllable. Lots of languages have such constraints.
> 
> > I'm increasingly thinking that spaces delimit syllables
> 
> Many Voynich words are too long to be single syllables.
> Voynich words of more than 10 characters do exist
> (especially when written in EVA).

Perhaps; but there are long words of one syllable even in
English, such as STRENGTHS, BROUGHAMS, and (arguably)
BROUGHAMMED.  Besides, once you de-Tiltmanize them, they
might shorten up nicely.
 
> Seeing the Mandarin list, it occurred to me that the
> interchangability of S- and Z- in Voynichese could
> be reflections of Mandarin l- and r-... (another shot
> in the dark).

Or dialectical differences between the writers, such as a
Berliner's 'CH' versus the Hochdeutsch version.  Or different
dialects of Basque, I think with the pronunciation of S.

	Jim G.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 12:59:27 1997
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From: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
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To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <33BA062B.70D@telcel.net.ve> (message from Luis Velez on Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:41:31 -0700)
Subject: Re: The Interchangeability factor
Status: OR

>>>>> "Luis" == Luis Velez <lvelez@telcel.net.ve> writes:

    Luis> Could that same "interchangeability" factor be deemed as an
    Luis> involuntary inconsistency of the scribe's knowledge of
    Luis> Voynichese, (like a typo?) or would it seem to point more to
    Luis> a conscious handling of the language/cypher, aimed at
    Luis> confusing even more the undesirable interpreter? Or is it
    Luis> perhaps merely another feature of the script?

Well, true spelling dictionaries are relatively recent.  In Germany
they are no older than about 100 years (the relevant book is called
the "Duden").  Before that, people spelled words as they pronounced
them, and they might have used several, differing spellings for the
same word.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 17:11:09 1997
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Message-ID: <33BAC37A.CBB9EED1@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:09:17 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: Re: Tiltman's Paradigm:  % of Text
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> Jacques Guy wrote:
>
> > I have already written it in this list, a long time
> > ago, so I will repeat it. It is strangely reminiscent
> > of Mandarin Chinese.
> >
> > Roots (called "initials")   Suffixes (called "finals")
> >
> > b-, p-, m-, f-              -a, -ai, -an, -ang
> > d-, t-, n-,                 -e, -ei, -en, -eng
> > g-, k-, h-                  -o, -ou, -ong
> > z-, c-, s-                  -ua, -uai, -uan, -uang
> > zh-, ch-, sh-               -uei, -uen,
> > j-, q-, x-                  -ia, -ian, -iang
> > l-, r-                      -ie, -iou, -iong

    This is about where I started with my tonal scripts - and have
continued evolving them into scripts that tend to lean toward syllabic
sets.> Coming back to Tiltman's list, I'll let you into

> > a secret: I have often toyed with the notion that
> > final -89 represents -ng (and final -9 -n). And
> > that C, CC, and CCC before it are respectively
> > i, a, and ia. But don't think for one moment that
> > there is anything there other than a pure guess,
> > a shot in the dark.


    I've attached pictures of my present script that breaks down the c, cc,
ccc types to consonants - EXCUSE the poor Voynich Fonts -> I'm still trying
to alter the Eva-a.ttf font to meet all my requirements - Ie. when a
gallows is overwriting a currier S etc. And my very poor 8 character
postioning hasn't quite lined up with the c, i, and gallows forms as I
would like.

                                Here's to more shooting in the dark!
                                                            John.

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e4IjgCc9SwhqZkN7Y9g4TYSC33VCUSKFL5IiF9N4x8dvhMZffAhAJQhRNAhf8qY8/t4ViA+3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--------------C1C3718816D7DE27D415AA2F--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul  3 03:20:03 1997
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From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
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I aimed:

>>Seeing the Mandarin list, it occurred to me that the
>>interchangability of S- and Z- in Voynichese could
>>be reflections of Mandarin l- and r-... (another shot
>>in the dark).

and

> Missed!

Tant pis....:-)         Apart from the (apparent)
interchangeability of S and  Z  (SOE vs. ZOE,  SC89 vs ZC89,
SX9 vs ZX9 etc etc) there is also that of P vs. F.

There is more than just:

> cat, pat, hat.
> cot, pot, hot.
> cut, put, hut.

In Voynichese it seems as if one could equally say:

Yes I can Can-can
Yes I pan Pan-pan
Yes I can Han-pan

Although we have no way of telling if the meaning would
be the same each time.  And it would require a further
study to check if S/Z, P/F, .O/.4O etc etc can be
totally freely interchanged in every context.  I remember
seeing a post from Jacques from the early 90's, with large
matrices searching for this very feature. I am not sure if a
definite conclusion was reached.

One thing is certain: the S/Z choice is not a writer's
dialectical preference. They are mixed all throughout
the Ms (see also the word lists at the EVMT web site).

Cheers, Rene

Disclaimer:  I can't Can't-can't.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul  3 03:41:04 1997
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:31:35 +0200
Subject: Re: Tiltman's Paradigm: % of Text
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To John Groves (and other potential users):

I am sure you can do everything you need with
Gabriel's font.
Here's how to render the intruding gallows:

Your         EVA
------------------
sluh         CPh
slih         CTh
sruh         CFh
srih         CKh

Note the capitalisation in EVA. It is not
required but gives a better result.
Also, Currier Z looks much better when
written Sh than when written sh.

The first line of Gabriel's sample gif at the EVMT
home page is obtained by writing:

fachys ykal ar ataiin Shol Shory CThres ykor Sholdy

and then changing the font to EVA Hand A.

Have fun, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul  3 04:11:02 1997
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------22C912D3237A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Following what I just did with Tiltman's paradigm for VMs text, I 
tried the same thing with the paradigm Robert Firth derived in his 
Note #24.  You may find Robert's Note #24 at
http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/firth/24.txt

    Robert derived his paradigm from a Voynich A corpus.  He used only 
the most frequently occuring "words".  

    "Eventually, I decided to set the cutoff at four occurrences: any 
group that occurs 4 or more times is probably genuine.  This removes 
about 20% of the text, but it removes over 85% of the unique groups, 
and most of the remainder look plausible ... So, we have some 280 
groups in the Voynich A, that occur 4 or more times, with the record 
being 355 for '8AM'..." 

    Robert conceived his system as two alternating cipher alphabets.  
I of course am regarding it as a general paradigm.   

    "I would start from the plaintext alphabet, and create two 
alternative encodings, one for the odd letters and one for the even.  
A pair of letters would be a "group", but the spaces around groups are 
for the convenience of the scribes; they add no information." 

Odd Letters     Even Letters

    2                   89
    4O                  8AE
    4OF                 8AM
    4OP                 AE
    8                   AJ
    9F                  AM
    9P                  AN
    F                   AR
    O                   C9
    OF                  CC9
    OP                  COE
    P                   OE
    Q                   OM
    S                   OR
    SF                  S9
    SP                  SC9
    SQ                  SO
    SW                  SOE
    SX                  SOR
    W                   Z9
    X                   9 (maybe)
    Z
    ZO

"This is a rough guess, and will surely have errors - but that's two
alphabets of 21 and 23 symbols, and with the exception of that silly
letter '9' almost any combination of symbols is locally decodable.
(Something's wrong with 8 or AM or 8AM; otherwise, it's rigorous.)"

    As before, I removed the Firth #24 paradigm elements.  The "odd" 
elements must occur after a word division to be removed and the "even" 
elements must occur before a word division to be removed.  I then 
removed all spaces from the source files and the residual files and 
compared their size.  I've attached this BITRANS script, as well as 
the one for removing Tiltman paradigm elements.   

    Finally, I took the files with the Firth #24 elements removed (but 
with spaces remaining) and removed the Tiltman paradigm elements.  I 
then removed spaces from the resulting files and compared that file to 
the space-free source file.  

    The results:

                 File Size    Paradigms
                 (bytes)      (% of text)
                 ----------   -----------

Voynich Herbal A:
Full source text     11252
  ", w/o spaces       8474
w/o Firth#24 elements 4331
  ", w/o spaces       1553     81.7
w/o F24 & Tiltman     4137
  " , w/o spaces      1359     84.0

Voynich Herbal B:
Full source text     15136
  ", w/o spaces      11812
w/o F#24 elements     6249
  " - w/o spaces      2925     75.2
w/o F#24 & Tiltman    5806
  " - w/o spaces      2482     79.0

    Thus Robert's paradigm fits more of the text than Tiltman's did.  
He designed it for Voynich A but it works almost as well for Voynich 
B.  
    
Dennis

--------------22C912D3237A
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Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Firth24.bit"

(comment) Delete elements of 
(comment)    paradigm in Robert Firth's Note #24)
(comment) Odd Letters = syllable beginnings
#2 (zero)
#4O (zero)
#4OF (zero)
#4OP (zero)
#8 (zero)
#9F (zero)
#9P (zero)
#F (zero)
#O (zero)
#OF (zero)
#OP (zero)
#P (zero)
#Q (zero)
#S (zero)
#SF (zero)
#SP (zero)
#SQ (zero)
#SW (zero)
#SX (zero)
#W (zero)
#X (zero)
#Z (zero)
#ZO (zero)
(comment) even letters = syllable endings
89# (zero)
8AE# (zero)
8AM# (zero)
AE# (zero)
AJ# (zero)
AM# (zero)
AN# (zero)
AR# (zero)
C9# (zero)
CC9# (zero)
COE# (zero)
OE# (zero)
OM# (zero)
OR# (zero)
S9# (zero)
SC9# (zero)
SO# (zero)
SOE# (zero)
SOR# (zero)
Z9# (zero)
9# (zero)

--------------22C912D3237A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="tiltman.bit"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tiltman.bit"

(comment) D'Imperio Fig. 27 -- Tiltman's Division of 
(comment) Common Words into "Roots" and "Suffixes" (Tiltman 1951) 
(comment) Currier's Transliteration
(comment) Roots (may occur in any context)
OF (zero)
OV (zero)
OP (zero)
OB (zero)
4OF (zero)
4OV (zero)
4OP (zero)
4OB (zero)
S (zero)
Z (zero)
8 (zero)
2 (zero)
(comment) Suffixes (must be word-final)
AD# (zero)
AN# (zero)
AM# (zero)
A3# (zero)
AR# (zero)
AT# (zero)
AU# (zero)
A0# (zero)
AE# (zero)
AG# (zero)
AH# (zero)
A1# (zero)
OR# (zero)
OE# (zero)
C9# (zero)
CC9# (zero)
CCC9 (zero)
C89# (zero)
CC89# (zero)
CCC89# (zero)

--------------22C912D3237A--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul  3 07:02:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 07:01:36 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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> Your         EVA
> ------------------
> sluh         CPh
> slih         CTh
> sruh         CFh
> srih         CKh
>
        Understood, however what I've done to the font is an attempt to
make each character match my version of spelling as I type it. When I type
an n, I get two c's and when I type an 'a' I get the down stroke forming
the Voynich letter 9 thus the character c9 is formed by the same means that
I would form c2 - type 'n' followed by 'o'.  When I change my consonant to
d, I recieve the currier 'i' - attach the vowel stroke and get my do, da,
di, du, de forms.

    For the Gallows, I wanted to simply break them apart in the same
fashion as my consonant vowel sets - thus typing 's' gives me the first
'c', then typing 'l' gives me the first stroke of the gallows, 'i' assigns
the vowel, and lastly the overlapping 'h'.

                                    John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 20:05:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Tiltman's Paradigm: % of Text
Status: OR

Rene:

>Seeing the Mandarin list, it occurred to me that the
>interchangability of S- and Z- in Voynichese could
>be reflections of Mandarin l- and r-... (another shot
>in the dark).

Missed! Not your fault, but that of the transcription
system I used, known as "pinyin". In this system "r"
is more like French "j" (English s as in "leisure")
than "r". Quite distinct from "l". In the future,
I shall use the Giles-Wade system, which is much
more intuitive for English users. Viz.: the
Ch'in dynasty (spelt as in the Giles-Wade system),
and pronounced chin (with a very strongly aspirated
ch), is spelt Qin in pinyin. Utterly misleading.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  2 20:11:05 1997
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	id AA22531; Thu, 3 Jul 97 10:03:38 EST
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 97 10:03:37 EST
Message-Id: <9707030003.AA22531@medici.trl.OZ.AU>
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Interchangeability factor
Status: OR

Luis:
>Could that same "interchangeability" factor be deemed as an
>involuntary inconsistency of the scribe's knowledge of Voynichese,
>(like a typo?) or would it seem to point more to a conscious handling of
>the language/cypher, aimed at confusing even more the undesirable
>interpreter? Or is it perhaps merely another feature of the script?

No, this is a misunderstanding. It simply means that Z occurs with
the same "suffixes" as S. There is nothing there that can be
interpreted as a dialectal of personal variation. 

Look at English:

cat, pat, hat.
cot, pot, hot.
cut, put, hut.

C, P, and H are "interchangeable" before AT, OT, and UT.

It doesn't mean that they are *freely* interchangeable!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jul  4 11:53:07 1997
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Message-ID: <33BD1BDF.EFE98648@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 11:50:57 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Not quite syllabic
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------22480441323C93BD52710442"
Status: OR

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------22480441323C93BD52710442
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Attached is the not quite syllabic view of the VM character sets with my
present romanization
(purely arbitrary). On the second line of folio 5v Currier 9SOBOR86 and
Friedman 9SOBOR8J
could possibly be finished with the wierdo SAo shown at the bottom of the
second image attached.
The last line of folio 5v ending with Currier 8ATO86 and Friedman 8ATO88
could be further define
diphthongs as the cause of wierdos... This one looks like an almagamation
of my SA with an
attached or overlapping 'I' for a transliterated form of SAi...

                                    John.

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	id AA868059031 Fri, 04 Jul 97 16:30:31 SST
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 97 16:30:31 SST
From: robertjf@iss.nus.sg (ROBERTJF)
Encoding: 343 Text
Message-Id: <9706048680.AA868059031@ccmail.iss.nus.sg>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Change of address
Status: OR

     Dear Team Voynich
     
     Please note my new address is
     
        robertjf@iss.nus.sg
     
     I have already learned one word of Malay,
     which will no doubt be of invaluable help
     in decyphering the VMS (after all, old
     Persian was decyphered from a single word!)
     
     Take care
     Robert Firth

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jul  4 18:02:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 18:01:23 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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    Don't you really hate it when you have spell check and don't use it
because you know what you're thinking so the typing should be flawless!!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul  6 01:35:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 00:35:29 -0500
From: "Eric O'Dell" <eric@gadgetguru.com>
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Subject: Original Voynich MS online soon?
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Status: OR

This is a press release from IBM, describing the project they are
undertaking with the Beinecke Library to scan and make accessible all of
their old MSS. We can only hope the VMS will be among them.



The Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale
University had been considering solutions to digitize its diverse
material -- and thereby expand its scholarly audience -- for some time
when it decided on IBM's Digital Library in early 1996. 

At the Beinecke, which opened in 1963, visitors can peruse extensive
collections of books, manuscripts, photographs, and art ranging from
Egyptian papyri to 20th-century literature. Among the arguably
priceless works catalogued here are the full autograph score of
Gustav Mahler's first symphony, love letters of Gertrude Stein and
Alice B. Toklas, and a large collection of Carl Van Vechten's
photographs of African Americans. 

However, the library's vast contents are available for viewing within
limited parameters. Nothing in the archives can be removed from the
premises, which are open weekdays from 8:00 a.m. to 5:30 p.m.
While one can order prints of individual pages to take away, this isn't
cheap. Making a print requires the creation of a photonegative costing
$24 for each letter-sized page; if the negative is already available
through a prior request, the print comes to $9. 

Currently, the Beinecke draws around 12,000 readers per year, half
of whom are from outside Yale, according to Ellen Cordes, the
library's head of public services. "One of our main motivations for
using Digital Library was to make our archives more accessible,"
Cordes explains. "We're a service organization." By putting digital
images of Beinecke materials on the Internet, the IBM solution helps
not only people located far from Yale, but also those doing research
within Beinecke's own walls. "As an alternative to paging through files
and files to find what you need," says Cordes, "you can call it up and
view it on the computer." Viewing manuscript pages or art pieces on
the computer screen helps preserve them, she adds, by saving wear
and tear on the objects themselves. 

Before the library can put the IBM system to use, it has to create the
digital files. Shari Weaver, Beinecke's systems officer, has been
working since June 1996 on scanning the existing photonegatives
collection, which represents all images that readers have requested.
Using the IBM Pro 3000 digital camera, Weaver and a small group
of Yale students have scanned 13,000 negatives so far, beginning
with grayscale files; she plans to bring the total to 14,000 within a
few weeks and then begin on color transparencies. "It's a work in
progress," Weaver said. "We will continue to add as we create new
photonegatives." This summer the Beinecke will scan original material
directly, including papyri, Western American art, and illuminated
manuscripts. 

When calling up images online, users will first be able to view them as
thumbnails; by clicking on an image, they can view it at dimensions of
700 x 700 pixels or 1400 x 1400, for greater detail. To safeguard
against copyright infringement, each image will carry IBM's visible
watermark. 

When the digital collection goes live at Yale this summer, it will
feature Digital Library's sophisticated search capabilities. Before
automation of the photonegative collection, there was a single point of
access -- the title of the folder in which the negatives were filed.
With the Digital Library, readers can search on any word in the record.
This also helps narrow searches -- a search on Stein retrieves over
700 records but a search on Stein and Radcliffe will bring back the
five photographs of Gertrude Stein at Radcliffe. 

Generally when readers wish to locate materials, they begin by
searching Orbis, the Yale University Library online catalog, which
points to books and archival collections as a whole. Fuller information
about an archive appears in a "finding aid," a file-by-file listing of
the contents of the collection. Ultimately, the Beinecke plans to
provide access to images directly from online finding aids. 

An additional advantage to the current project is the increased ability
to find visual material, such as photographs and prints. Searching for
visual material using the Digital Library means that the reader is no
longer limited to the catalogers description -- they can view the
images immediately. "Traditional cataloging works well for text
material, but is less sophisticated for visual items," says Weaver.
"We're very excited about the enhanced access to visual material."

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul  6 06:26:02 1997
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Message-Id: <9707061025.AA00154@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:28:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: Not quite syllabic
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Status: OR

On  4 Jul 97 at 11:50, John & Sue Grove wrote:

> Attached is the not quite syllabic view of the VM character sets with my
> present romanization (purely arbitrary).

Without any intentions to offend, but as a constructive 
criticism, I can't imagine why this particular configuration is 
appropriate. Is this for making the voynich pronounceable?

If so, then the syllabic view is very "lossy" and ambiguous (you 
cannot go from the phonetic back to the script), and the same 
v-characters code for different sounds. 

ie (all in eva): s can be O or S
T can also be NO (ees), NS (ees) SSS (ees) SSO (ees), etc.


Each "letter" has between 3 and 6 script combinations, It 
would be very difficult for the same words to be coded the same each 
time. If this was the case, I  would expect the Zipf's rank-frequency 
law to be absent from the text, which is not.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul  6 15:23:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:19:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: "Eric O'Dell" <eric@gadgetguru.com>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Original Voynich MS online soon?
In-Reply-To: <33BF2EA1.5788@gadgetguru.com>
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On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Eric O'Dell wrote:

> This is a press release from IBM, describing the project they are
> undertaking with the Beinecke Library to scan and make accessible all of
> their old MSS. We can only hope the VMS will be among them.

	It might help if we made our wishes known!

> Before the library can put the IBM system to use, it has to create the
> digital files. Shari Weaver, Beinecke's systems officer, has been
> working since June 1996 on scanning the existing photonegatives
> collection, which represents all images that readers have requested.
> Using the IBM Pro 3000 digital camera, Weaver and a small group
> of Yale students have scanned 13,000 negatives so far, beginning
> with grayscale files; she plans to bring the total to 14,000 within a
> few weeks and then begin on color transparencies. "It's a work in
> progress," Weaver said. "We will continue to add as we create new
> photonegatives." This summer the Beinecke will scan original material
> directly, including papyri, Western American art, and illuminated
> manuscripts. 

	From the mail archives:

From: reeds@research.att.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 00:40 EDT
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich chatter, cont'd.

The Beinecke also has an immense number of very clear photostat negatives.
(Far clearer than the microfilm.)  These are the originals from which
Petersen's & Friedman's photostat sets were derived.



From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul  6 19:29:02 1997
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Message-ID: <33C02A2C.9A849956@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 19:28:49 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Gabriel Landini wrote:

> Without any intentions to offend, but as a constructive
> criticism, I can't imagine why this particular configuration is
> appropriate. Is this for making the voynich pronounceable?

    The whole point to putting our ideas out is for such criticism. My
original intent has been to change the way the voynich character is viewed
- rather than as a single character, I've tried to create a script that
combines consonants with vowel markers from the forms provided in the
MS.Currier for example used E,G,H, and 1 to represent what my alphabet has
as da, ka, ma, and pa.
Making the voynich 'sound' and 'look' like a language in romanized form is
a side bonus to labeling the characters in a manner where vowels follow
almost all consonants. I don't think my charts were clear in their
meaning...

> i.e. (all in eva): s can be O or S

> T can also be NO (ees), NS (ees) SSS (ees) SSO (ees), etc.
>
> Each "letter" has between 3 and 6 script combinations, It
> would be very difficult for the same words to be coded the same each
> time.

      There is only one consonant for each character in my script - closed
by a vowel marker in each case so the above isn't possible. Where previous
alphabets identified the EVA in, iin, iiin as individual characters, I have
included the EVA en een eeen with their own characters. The 'n' in these
types are the closing vowel of my script. So reverting backwards is done as
simple substitution c = s / cc <> ss but cc = n / ccc <> sss or nns but ccc
= t --- but these can only be read when a final is given.  The final can be
one of  my five vowel markers or my Ya/Ye/ Gallows character - or - a
consonant from the alternate group (ie. the 'i' series).

    The charts I sent show the romanization in one column with the Voynich
version (as the far left one in the column only - the remainder are the
closing vowels that accompany this form).  I modified your font so that
what you see on the screen is the result of typing the romanization
character with a vowel closure attached.

                                            John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul  9 16:11:03 1997
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Message-ID: <33C3EE07.B6E46EC9@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:01:14 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Dennis wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Eric O'Dell wrote:
>
> > This is a press release from IBM, describing the project they are
> > undertaking with the Beinecke Library to scan and make accessible all
> of
> > their old MSS. We can only hope the VMS will be among them.
>
>         It might help if we made our wishes known!

    I wish for colour! But, Alas I don't think we should make our wishes
known too loudly as Yale might find them annoying and put our requests to
the bottom of the To-Do List.

                                            John.



From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jul 11 06:53:04 1997
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Hello there,

My name is Jorge Stolfi, I am a faculty member of the CS Dept,
University of Campinas.  I stumbled into the Voynich pages, and
got hooked...

I work mostly on computer graphics and computational geometry, but
in the past I have also worked the use of finite automata for natural
language processing, such as spelling checkers and wordlist debugging
(if you are curious, check http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/reltec-ftp/93-21.ps.gz).

It turns out that one can learn a lot about the lexical structure of a
language (radicals, suffixes, declensions, etc.) by analyzing the
corresponding automaton, without knowing anything about the language.
Obviously, I could not pass up the chance to try those tricks on the VMs.

I have obtained the Landini-Zandbergen interlinear transcription 
(may their names be forever praised). I have chosen to work on the
Biological section, f75r--f84v, because it seems to be relatively
homogeneous and contain mostly prose text.

I haven't had much success yet, unfortunately. The automaton reveal
some interesting structure in the Voynich wordlist (such as the
AM/AN/AR/AE "conjugation"), but nothing that wasn't already mentioned
somewhere in the WWW or the mail archives.  

Still, I got a few ideas that I would like to share.  Please bear with
me for a few kB; if you feel I am wasting your time, please let me
know...

I think the major obstacle to statistical analysis is that the
transcriptions we are working with have too much noise.  When I
compared the Currier and FSG versions of the Biological section, I
found that about 20% of the words differed in one or more
characters.

Looking at the manuscript images, it seems the noise is
unavoidable if one insists in recording all details that *could*
matter.  For instance, [T] may be semantically different from
[CC], but there seems to be a continuum between a strong ligature
and no ligature at all.  The same goes for [A]/[G]/[CI],
[K]/[8]/[6]/[G], etc.

Moreover, the grouping of strokes into letters seems to be highly
variable and arbitrary: for example, the sequence [AIR] could also
be read [CIIR] or [CN], depending on tiny differences in the
stroke spacing.  I don't have to tell you what this variation does
to the statistics...

Therefore, if we want meaningful statistics, I believe we must
first discard that part of the data that is most contaminated by
transcription noise, even at the cost of discarding significant
information.  For example, since [T] and [CC] are easily confused,
we should use the same encoding for both.  

Taken to the limit, that means recasting first the EVT files into a
small but highly analytical alphabet (even more so than Frogguy),
whose symbols denote clearly recognizable single strokes, ignoring
unreliable details such as ligatures and fine shape distinctions.

For English text, this approach would mean replacing "m" by "iii", "w"
by "vv", "Q" by "O", etc. Obviously we wouldn't want to do this if we
knew the alphabet and the language.  At the stage we are, however,
semantic ambiguity is not a problem.  And, besides, the spelling rules
of most languages are already ambiguous --- consider Latin's "V"
or English "A"...

The encoding I have been playing with breaks everything down into
strokes of two kinds: five "body" strokes \q,o,c,i,l/, corresponding
to FSG [4], [O], [C], [I], and the left half of [D]; and six
"modifier" strokes \u,x,s,y,j,g/, attached to the preceding body
stroke, such as the plume of [2] or the "/" stroke of [E].  Thus, FSG
[2] becomes \cs/, [T] becomes \csc/, [E] becomes \ix/, and [M] becomes
\iiiu/. Here is the translation table:

  [IIIK]  iiiij  
  [IIIL]  iiiiu  
  [IIIR]  iiiis  
  [IIIE]  iiiix  
  [IIE]   iiix   
  [IIR]   iiis   
  [IIK]   iiij   
  [HZ]    cqjc   
  [PZ]    cqgc   
  [DZ]    cljc   
  [FZ]    clgc   
  [IE]    iix    
  [IR]    iis    
  [IK]    iij    
  [2]     cs     
  [4]     q      
  [6]     cj     
  [7]     ig     
  [8]     cg     
  [A]     ci     
  [C]     c      
  [D]     lj     
  [E]     ix     
  [F]     lg     
  [G]     cy     
  [H]     qj     
  [I]     i      
  [K]     ij     
  [L]     iu     
  [M]     iiiu   
  [N]     iiu    
  [O]     o      
  [P]     qg     
  [R]     is     
  [S]     csc    
  [T]     cc     
  [V]     ?      
  [Y]     ?      

With this encoding, I can get somewhat better agreement beyween
the Currier and Friedman versions.  Also, the digraph frequency
tables are smaller and easier to grok.  

Here is such a table. It was prepared from the Biological section,
using only those words that, after the above expansion, are identical
in the Currier and Friedman's transcription.  I have split the table
into "body" and "limb" sections, for clarity:

      SPC |      q     o     c     i     l |     g     y     s     x     j     u   TOT
    -----    ----- ----- ----- ----- -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
SPC      |   1398   965  1877   361    60 |                                4661
    -----    ----- ----- ----- ----- -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
  q     1 |        1229    18          1 |   154                  700       2103
  o    21 |    486     1    63  1087  1071 |                                2729
  c     4 |    167   176  6137  1209   232 |  2114  2921  1019                13979
  i     4 |      1     1     8  1997     2 |             560  1616    37   457  4683
  l      |                           |    16                 1566       1582
    -----    ----- ----- ----- ----- -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
  g    52 |          74  2150     4     4 |                                2284
  y  2790 |     26     2    47    13    43 |                                2921
  s   463 |      1    99  1013     1     2 |                                1579
  x   827 |     24   105   488     5   167 |                                1616
  j    46 |          76  2175     6      |                                2303
  u   453 |           1     3           |                                 457
    -----    ----- ----- ----- ----- -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
TOT  4661 |   2103  2729 13979  4683  1582 |  2284  2921  1579  1616  2303   457 40897

The first row/column (SPC) corresponds to word boundary (i.e. space or line break).  

Some properties of this table would be hard to notice in the original
encoding.  For instance, note that practically no words end with the
"body" strokes \q,o,c,i,l/; this suggests that the every "letter" of
the "true" VMs alphabet ends with a "limb" stroke.

After pondering these tables and doing some experiments, I have
identified some groups of strokes that appear to behave like letters.
Most of these groups do correspond to the original FSG symbols;
however, the expanded encoding makes it possible to regroup the
strokes more systematically.

For instance, the strings of consecutive \i/ strokes almost always end
with a limb stroke, and are preceded by a \c/ or \o/ stroke.  The
statistics of those strings suggest that that the stroke pair \ci/
should always be parsed as a single letter [A] (which, statistically
speaking, is somewhat similar to [O]).  That appears valid even in
cases where the EVT file has [CI], [CN] or [CM].  

After this step, there remain only six limb-terminated strings of \i/
strokes that occur in significative numbers: \ij/ = [K], \ix/ = [E],
\iiiu/ = [M], \iiu/ = [N], \iis/ = [IR] and \is/ = [R].

Here are the multi-stroke "letters" I am tentatively using at this 
point:

  #! /n/gnu/bin/sed -f
  # Tentative grouping of "strokes" into "letters":
  s/ij/f/g
  s/ix/e/g
  s/ci/a/g
  s/iiiu/m/g
  s/iiu/n/g
  s/iis/v/g
  s/is/r/g
  s/cs/z/g
  s/cg/8/g
  s/cy/9/g
  s/qo/A/g
  s/qj/H/g
  s/qg/P/g
  s/lj/H/g
  s/lg/P/g

Note that these replacements must be performed in the order shown.
There are a few words that do not fit these groupings (such as leftover
\i/ strokes), but they can be easily explained as scribal or transcription
errors.  

This is far from being a complete set of letters; for instance,
the \c/ and \cs/ strokes are obviously grouped in pairs, as in 
FSG's [T] and [S], but I haven't analyzed them yet.

Here is a digraph table for the tentative "letters" above.
(It is some 100 chars wide, I hope the mailer won't mess it up.)

              a     o     c     z     8     9     A     H     P     e     r     m     n     v     f   TOT
    ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
            66   965   621   727   362    95  1215   151    64   282    78                      4626
  a     3          1     2     4     2               3        402   270   328   108    19    32  1174
  o    14              17     6    11     1     4   463    39   758   170     9     1     1     4  1498
  c     4    60   176  3509    35  1646   855        358    31    14                           6688
  z    41    68    63   823     9     3     4          2     1     1                           1015
  8    49   308    37    37    31     1  1631          4          3     1                      2102
  9  2778     1     2    16    20     9          2    64     2     8     4                    1  2907
  A     7     3     1    17          7     1     1  1022    22   134     7          1            1223
  H    10   583    74  1323    41     3   207                    6                           2247
  P     2    11    36    97    14     3     6                                                169
  e   824    32   105   205   115    53    81     1   180    10     3     2                      1611
  r   396    42    36    21    13     2    22                                                532
  m   334                              3                                                337
  n   109          1                                                                    110
  v    19                              1                                                 20
  f    36          1                                                                     37
    ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
TOT  4626  1174  1498  6688  1015  2102  2907  1223  2247   169  1611   532   337   110    20    37 26296

Well, enough for today...

--stolfi

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jorge Stolfi | http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi | stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Institute of Computing (formerly DCC-IMECC)      | Sorry, no phone!     
Universidade Estadual de Campinas (UNICAMP)      | UNICAMP's PR expenses
Av. Albert Einstein 1251 - Caixa Postal 6176     | leave no room for 
13083-970 Campinas, SP -- Brazil                 | such luxuries.
------------------------------------------------------------------------





From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jul 11 07:35:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C12564D1.003EF383.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:27:58 +0200
Subject: Re: Hello
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:


> I have obtained the Landini-Zandbergen interlinear transcription
> (may their names be forever praised).

Too much praise for me. The interlinear file is entirely
and completely Gabriel's work.

> Therefore, if we want meaningful statistics, I believe we must
> first discard that part of the data that is most contaminated > by
transcription noise, even at the cost of discarding
> significant
> information.  For example, since [T] and [CC] are easily confused,
> we should use the same encoding for both.

I agree that this is an interesting experiment, but you will
agree that deciding which differences to ignore and which
not is a difficult one. For the computer transcription of the
original, certain details have to be kept, because once
removed they cannot be brought back. But also, we don't want
to end up with a transcription that uses an alphabet of 25,000
marginally different characters. Tools exist to convert
transcribed texts with 'too much detail' into more basic
alphabets (much like you're doing).

> Taken to the limit, that means recasting first the EVT files
> into a small but highly analytical alphabet...

Please note that the interlinear file is not the real final
EVMT file. A complete transcription should be available some
time....

> #! /n/gnu/bin/sed -f
> # Tentative grouping of "strokes" into "letters":
> s/ij/f/g
> (snip)
> Note that these replacements must be performed in the order
> shown.

I think all Unixers started like this, with sed/grep/sort.
If you have a PC, do try out BITRANS (downloadable from
the EVMT site). It was written by Jacques Guy (to be praised
as above) and will let you do a lot more than sed. It's
pretty fast too. And you don't have to worry about the
order of the replacements. It will do that for you.

Keep it up!

Rene





From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jul 11 21:17:03 1997
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	Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:50:47 -0300 (EST)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:50:47 -0300 (EST)
Message-Id: <199707112050.RAA03191@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Hello
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Status: OR


    > I agree that this is an interesting experiment, but you will
    > agree that deciding which differences to ignore and which
    > not is a difficult one. For the computer transcription of the
    > original, certain details have to be kept, because once
    > removed they cannot be brought back. But also, we don't want
    > to end up with a transcription that uses an alphabet of 25,000
    > marginally different characters.
    
Certainly the master file should have as much information as
possible. (In the limit, we should have multispectral scanned images
of the VMs!)

I am proposing reduced alphabets only for rough statistical analysis,
while we are still trying to figure out what is a VMs "letter".  At
this stage, it seems best to identify pairs of easily confused
letters, such as [CC] and [T].

Of course, the statistics may then show that some [CC]s do behave as
single letters.  In that case, we should use the original files as hints
whenever the parsing is ambiguous.  

(But you veterans have already gone through all of this, haven't you?) 
    
    > Please note that the interlinear file is not the real final EVMT
    > file. A complete transcription should be available some time....

I suppose you are using some program to find the best alignment
and insert the "%"s, right?

Since my "stroke" re-encoding uses variable-length symbols, I had to
redo the alignment of the Currier and Friedman versions.  
For tat, I hacked up a tool that tries to generate a consensus text from a
multi-version transcription in EVMT format, inserting a "?"s where the
versions disagree.  It uses dynamic programming with limited lookahead
(i.e. scans the two lines from left to right, and defines each output
symbol by finding the best possible match of the next N symbols from
one string to those of the other string).

It is written in AWK, which means I can only run it with N = 5 or so
(the time grows as N^2).  Not surprisingly, it works fine for isolated
errors, but tends to get badly out of sync when the errors come in
bursts.  I can post the code, if anyone is interested.  If it were
rewritten in C or Pascal (a trivial task, it is already 99% C-like),
we could easily run it with N = 200 or more...

    > I think all Unixers started like this, with sed/grep/sort.
    > If you have a PC, do try out BITRANS (downloadable from
    > the EVMT site). It was written by Jacques Guy (to be praised
    > as above) and will let you do a lot more than sed. It's
    > pretty fast too. And you don't have to worry about the
    > order of the replacements. It will do that for you.

I have a Unix box on my desk, but I will check it out...

Thanks for the folow-up,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jul 11 12:08:04 1997
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From: descarte@hermetica.com
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Subject: Re: TPJ
To: kornai@bbn.com (Andras Kornai)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <199707021347.JAA22864@chara.BBN.COM> from "Andras Kornai" at Jul 2, 97 09:47:08 am
X-Repent: "Faustus seek repentance; abjure this evil art!"
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> The variety of skills of this little group, VMS-related and otherwise, never
> ceases to amaze me. I just opened The Perl Journal to find a very well written
> article on 3D graphics by our very own Alligator Descartes. Check it out. 

Argh. My embarrassment is now total.......

There should be a follow-up article nex' munf which rather wittily builds
the sundials talked about in issue 6 in 3-dimensions.

Someone really ought to do some sort of Voynich analysis software for perl
and write about it. That's the kind of stuff that makes perl an oddly
eclectic language!

> Andras Kornai

A.

-- 
Alligator Descartes       |
descarte@hermetica.com    |   "The reverse side also has a reverse side"
http://www.hermetica.com  |                         -- Zen saying

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jul 12 04:05:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:00:08 +0200
From: Alex Schroeder <alex@zool.unizh.ch>
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To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <199707111040.HAA02479@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> (message from Jorge Stolfi on Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:40:06 -0300 (EST))
Subject: Re: Hello
Status: OR


    stolfi> Here is a digraph table for the tentative "letters" above.
    stolfi> (It is some 100 chars wide, I hope the mailer won't mess
    stolfi> it up.)

Unfortunately my mailer messed it up completely, but since my mailer
is not mime compliant, I guess I should not complain :(

    stolfi> Therefore, if we want meaningful statistics, I believe we
    stolfi> must first discard that part of the data that is most
    stolfi> contaminated by transcription noise, even at the cost of
    stolfi> discarding significant information.

I agree with you wholeheartedly!  I habe always been toying with the
idea of doing this someday, but never managed.  This way of viewing
the text makes much more sense from the decoding point of view, I
think.  The glyphs must be easy to differentiate for the reader of the
manuscript.  Thus the glyphs must be distinct.  On the other hand
writers cannot reproduce glyphs perfectly, so we will see some
variation.  The trick now lies in finding the correct level of
simplification.  Your encoding is the right way to go, I think.

Obiously we want to store the manuscript with as much information as
possible, so this lossy encoding will only be used on working copies,
never on the stored original of the data... :)

Alex.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jul 12 05:17:03 1997
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Subject: Re: Hello
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
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On 11 Jul 97 at 17:50, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

Rene said: 
>     > Please note that the interlinear file is not the real final EVMT
>     > file. A complete transcription should be available some time....
> 
> I suppose you are using some program to find the best alignment
> and insert the "%"s, right?

No, we (Rene and I)  are reading the complete thing and comparing it 
to the interlinear file that you are using. We then merge both 
corrected versions by computer and re-proofread -re-merge it until 
there are no discrepancies. There are though, unreadable characters, 
but those will be also marked in the new transcription.

Also note that there are not only discrepancies between the previous 
versions using CC ot T but also between a number of other letters 
such as  (eva) r and s, a and o,  k and t, m and g and also  iin and 
in to name the most common.

> Since my "stroke" re-encoding uses variable-length symbols, I had to
> redo the alignment of the Currier and Friedman versions.  
> For tat, I hacked up a tool that tries to generate a consensus text from a
> multi-version transcription in EVMT format, inserting a "?"s where the
> versions disagree.  It uses dynamic programming with limited lookahead
> (i.e. scans the two lines from left to right, and defines each output
> symbol by finding the best possible match of the next N symbols from
> one string to those of the other string).

Is that available somewhere?

I can assure you that there are a number of instances in which bot 
transcriptions are wrong if you compare to Petersen or the copyflo.
 
cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jul 12 16:59:02 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:49:28 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:47:22 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Hello
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I am proposing reduced alphabets only for rough statistical analysis,
> while we are still trying to figure out what is a VMs "letter".  At
> this stage, it seems best to identify pairs of easily confused
> letters, such as [CC] and [T].
> 
> Of course, the statistics may then show that some [CC]s do behave as
> single letters.  In that case, we should use the original files as hints
> whenever the parsing is ambiguous.  

It's great that you have brought up this problem with the "CC" combination.
 It is the most prevalent of the many cipher groups that cause me to
maintain my own transcription language, since this group cannnot be
resolved by computerized methods using the EVMT transcription files.

I have enlarged sections of the negatives to as much as 9600 dpi, and these
enlargements clearly demonstrate that many of the "CC" combinations are in
fact one contiguous character, which I call "U", since it looks like a
handwritten lower case "U".  This does indeed hold true for other character
combinations as well.

The problem with 'analytical' transcription techniques that use the "CC"
combination exclusively is that this combination must be reduced to the "U"
shape by proofreading and not by computer automation.  If there were a
character designated to identify the "CC" combination in places where it
seems to form a contiguous cipher group, that group could easily be
expanded back to "CC", but "CC" can never be reduced to the "U" cipher
group because not all "CC" groups form contiguous characters.

My argument is that a "universal" transcription alphabet should be keyed to
more general forms instead of the character parsing of 'Frogguy' because of
the fact that general forms that consistently represent groups of pen
strokes can be expanded automatically to represent an analytical alphabet,
but analytical alphabets cannot be automatically reduced to general form
because of the nature of the cipher text.     


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jul 12 20:41:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:16:39 -0500
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: Hello
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At 07:40 AM 7/11/97 -0300, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
>
>Hello there,
>
>My name is Jorge Stolfi, I am a faculty member of the CS Dept,
>University of Campinas.  I stumbled into the Voynich pages, and
>got hooked...

	Welcome, Jorge!  I'm very much interested in your work, and believe it
fits in with some of mine.  I'll have to spend some time looking at what
you have to give a coherent reply.

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul 13 05:05:03 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:57:21 EDT
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:57:16 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Handwriting Analysis Programs
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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There is a very large question in my mind as to whether the two 'hands' of
the Voynich are indeed two separate hands, or just two separate systems of
approach.  I also question whether the book was written front to back, or
in sections, and at different times.

One other question that troubles me is whether a person naturally starts
out carefully drawing a new character set and then gets sloppy with time,
or does a person make several mistakes at the beginning and get far more
fluent as time goes on?  It seems to me very important to intelligently
answer these questions.

To that end I have enlarged several characters from different sections and
overlapped them in graphic display, only to find that many of them "fit"
each other quite well once size difference of text is taken into account. 
This is only a superficial analysis, and I would like to be able to do a
more scientific study of the text by representing hundreds or thousands of
characters mathematically and comparing them.

It occurs to me that my font program scans highly detailed graphics and
represents their outlines mathematically, without storing any size
information.  My only problem is that I do not know how to access the
information in a useful manner from this particular program.  Even the
makers of the font program have little to say on this point.  What I need
is a program that can basically perform the same funtion but provide
information that can be compared in graph or chart form.

>From what I have been reading about handwriting analysis, none of us ever
draw the same letters exactly the same, and no single person will draw
their own letters exactly the same, either.  We do however have significant
features contained in the basic letter shapes that are identifiable
markers.  These markers make the Voynich a prime candidate for mathematical
analysis.

The "C" form and all its various strokes are a consistent pattern that
opens itself to analysis, as well as the forms contained in the "8" and the
multiple gallows characters.  No two scribes would hold their pen the same,
so there should be minor variations in the angle of the curves in the "C"
form.  One scribe would elongate the tail of the "9" more than another
would, etc.  This information can be graphed from the different "hands" and
displayed in a readout that should prove beyond doubt whether or not these
sections have different origins.

If anyone is aware of a program that may be of use in this endeavour,
please let me know.


Regards,   Rayman  

 


  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul 13 12:17:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:19:44 -0400
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At 07:40 AM 7/11/97 -0300, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
>
>Hello there,
>
>My name is Jorge Stolfi, I am a faculty member of the CS Dept,
>University of Campinas.

Hello, Jorge, and welcome - your message comes in as an incentive
to both vets & newcomers. Our first member from Brazil and
second (or third?) from South America - a little implicit tease for
Gabriel :-) 

It seems your line of work is in the right trend - keep up the good work
at Campinas! 

Luis Velez
from Caracas

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 14 05:32:03 1997
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Hi!

> > Please note that the interlinear file is not the real final EVMT
> > file. A complete transcription should be available some time....

> I suppose you are using some program to find the best alignment
> and insert the "%"s, right?

Perhaps we're talking at cross-purposes (sorry if I misunderstood).
The interlinear file was made by combining all generally available
transcriptions. It is not complete, in the sense that certain
parts of the Ms have not been transcribed (or their transcription
has not been made generally available). The purpose of the
EVMT is to turn the set into one 'best' guess and to add the missing
parts. The result will be more complete than FSG and Currier,
more consistent than these and I would dare to say better as well.

(Note that scenarios could be imagined in which the transcription
would be useless, but then all existing ones would also be useless,
and I think these are all extremely unlikely scenarios).

Anyway, this proofreading/transcription is still ongoing.

And yes, we have one or two tools to try and put the %'s in the
correct place but they are not always making the right guesses
and it's easier to fix the ones where they get it wrong than
to write a tool that always gets it right.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 14 05:05:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>, voynich@rand.org
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On 12 Jul 97 at 13:47, rmalek wrote:

> I have enlarged sections of the negatives to as much as 9600 dpi, and these
> enlargements clearly demonstrate that many of the "CC" combinations are in
> fact one contiguous character, which I call "U", since it looks like a
> handwritten lower case "U".  This does indeed hold true for other character
> combinations as well.

You can write your "u" in eva  as Ee, that is an "e" connecting to 
the next character. As e always connects to the right through its 
lower part, then there is no problem. If it connects from the top, 
then it is a "c", if it does "backwards" it is an "h".

However I want to point out that on the general
forms of the Voynich characters can get very complicated.
For example, (all in eva) "a" can be a connected "ei", "Ei" or "ci", 
depending on where the loop seems the thinner (or Ci for a both upper 
and lower connected to  i).
On the same line you can see a compound (cthh) which can also be 
written (ctch) in the case that the second part of the ch (the h) is 
a "back connected e". Again I think that looking at the key-like 
sequences one can get the idea of what are the basic characters.

Also, "r" can be (i') and therefore "s" is (e'). 

We've had this  discussion on the alphabets so many times, and it 
seems that there is no straight answer.
I agree that there seem to be different "ee" patterns". Are those 
really different letters or are they connected strokes due to the 
scribe? I wish I had an answer.

cheers 
Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 14 11:08:22 1997
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
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      From Denis Mardle           14 July 1997

 I would like to point out that John Stojko ( now on
the list ) in his 1978 book with a basic consonant
only decipherment has Currier CC as NN  or M which
is nicely logical.  Of course CCC could be NNN or MN
or NM - I wonder if the "joins" indicate which ?

 Cheers   Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 14 11:20:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org, Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:11:15 +0000
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Subject: Re : Hello
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On 14 Jul 97 at 14:14, Denis Mardle wrote:

>  I would like to point out that John Stojko ( now on
> the list ) in his 1978 book with a basic consonant
> only decipherment has Currier CC as NN  or M which
> is nicely logical.  Of course CCC could be NNN or MN
> or NM - I wonder if the "joins" indicate which ?

Do you mean eva "ee" = "inin" = "iin"? 

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 14 23:23:03 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
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Hello again,

Thanks for all the welcome messages.

Here is a curious thing I have just noticed.  Recall that I was
playing with the biological section (f75r--f84v), using a stroke-level
encoding, ignoring ligatures.  

I set out to tabulate all reliable occurrences of the "tall letters
with two legs" (that is, FSG [H], [D], [HZ], [DZ]; Guy's <qp>, <lp>,
<eQPt>, <eLPt>; in my notation \lj/, \qj/, \cljc/, \cqjc/).

I extracted those letters, together with some context: any adjacent
\c/ strokes, on either side (ignoring plumes and ligatures), plus the 
first non-\c/ stroke (if any) at the right end.

Here are the absolute counts and fractions for each pattern:

     \lj/ occurrences         \qj/ occurrences        
    -------------------      -------------------       
     425 0.27  ljci            149 0.21  qjci        
     251 0.16  ljccg           129 0.18  qjccg       
     244 0.16  ljcccg           79 0.11  qjcccg      
     131 0.08  ljcccy           44 0.06  qjcy        
     100 0.06  ljcy             38 0.05  cccqjccy    
      55 0.04  ljccy            36 0.05  qjcccy      
      54 0.03  cccljccy         31 0.04  qjo         
      44 0.03  ccccljccy        29 0.04  ccccqjccy   
      42 0.03  ljo              26 0.04  qjccccg     
      26 0.02  ljccccg          24 0.03  qjccy       
      25 0.02  ljccccy          14 0.02  qjccccy     
      20 0.01  cccljcy          10 0.01  cccqjcy     
      15 0.01  ccccljcy         10 0.01  ccccqjcy    
      12 0.01  cccljcccg         8 0.01  qjco        
      11 0.01  ljco              6 0.01  cqjcccy     
       9 0.01  cccljcccy         5 0.01  qjcco       
       8 0.01  cccljccg          4 0.01  qjccco      
       7 0.00  cljccy            4 0.01  ccqjcy      
       7 0.00  cljcccy           4 0.01  cccqjcccy   
       7 0.00  cccljci           3 0.00  qjccci      
       5 0.00  lji               3 0.00  qj          
       5 0.00  ljcco             3 0.00  cqjco       
       5 0.00  cljcccg           3 0.00  cqjccy      
       5 0.00  ccljci            3 0.00  cqjccg      
       5 0.00  ccccljcccy        3 0.00  cqjcccg     
       5 0.00  ccccljcccg        3 0.00  cccqjccg    
       4 0.00  ljcccccy          3 0.00  cccqjcccg   
       4 0.00  ccclj             3 0.00  ccccqjcccg  
       3 0.00  lj                2 0.00  qjcg        
       3 0.00  ccljcy            2 0.00  cqjcy       
       2 0.00  ljcci             2 0.00  ccqjo       
       2 0.00  ljccco            2 0.00  ccqjci      
       2 0.00  ljcccccg          1 0.00  qji         
       2 0.00  cljci             1 0.00  qjcccccy    
       2 0.00  cljccg            1 0.00  qjccc       
       2 0.00  ccljccg           1 0.00  qjcc        
       2 0.00  ccccljcci         1 0.00  cqjci       
       2 0.00  ccccljccg         1 0.00  cqjcco      
       1 0.00  ljcg              1 0.00  cqjcci      
       1 0.00  ljccci            1 0.00  cqjccccg    
       1 0.00  ljccccl           1 0.00  cqjccc      
       1 0.00  ccljco            1 0.00  ccqjccg     
       1 0.00  ccljcccy          1 0.00  ccqjcccy    
       1 0.00  ccljcccg          1 0.00  cccqjci     
       1 0.00  cccljco           1 0.00  ccccqjci    
       1 0.00  cccljcci          1 0.00  ccccqjcccy  
       1 0.00  cccljccccy        1 0.00  cccccqjcccy 
       1 0.00  cccljccccg      700 1.00  TOTAL                      
       1 0.00  cccljc                                
       1 0.00  ccccljco                              
       1 0.00  cccccljccy
    1566 1.00  TOTAL

These tables say that, of the 1566 occurrences of \lj/,
425 (27%) had the context \ljcy/; and so on.

The encoding is explained below.  Independently of the encoding, the
similarity between the two lists is remarkable: practically every
context that occurs around \lj/ also occurs around \qj/, *with roughly
the same relative frequency*.

I get similar tables also when I tabulate whole words instead of
\c/-contexts.  (The similarity is less obvious, however, because the
absolute counts are lower, hence noisier.)

Has this similarity been noticed before? What should we make of it?

My interpretation is that [H] and [D] are actually the same Voynich
letter, the left loop being a meaningless calligraphic flourish (like
the little loop at the bottom of capital "D" in ordinary English
cursive) that is randomly omitted roughly 3/4 of the time.

Is there evidence to the contrary?

--stolfi

PS. In case you care, here are the codes I have used in these tables:
  
  \c/, \i/, \l/, \o/ as in Guy's.
  
  \g/ the looped tail that turns <c> into Guy's <8> 

  \y/ the drooping tail that turns <c> into Guy's <9>

Here is the relevant part of the FSG->stolfi table:

   FSG Guy's Mine
  --- ----- -----
   O   o     o 
   8   8     cg
   G   9     cy
   2   s     c
   E   x     ix
   R   2     is
   T   et    cc
   S   e't   cc
   H   qp    qj
   P   dj    qg
   D   lp    lj
   F   fj    lg
   HZ  eQPt  cqjc
   PZ  eDJt  cqgc
   DZ  eLPt  cljc
   FZ  eFJt  clgc
   A   a     ci
   C   c     c
   I   i     i
   L   v     iu
   N   iv    iiu
   M   iiv   iiiu
   K   ig    ij
   
Note that I have dropped all plumes on the \c/ strokes (Guy's <'>)
as well as the ligatures in [S], [T], and in the gallows' bases.
(I DON'T think those features are meaningless, but they seem to add
too much transcription noise.)
  
For the counts, I have considered only words where the Currier and FSG
transcriptions agree, at least at stroke level.
  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 14 23:53:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:47:03 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Fw: Hello
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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----------
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Hello
> Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 5:42 PM
> 
> > We've had this  discussion on the alphabets so many times, and it 
> > seems that there is no straight answer.
> > I agree that there seem to be different "ee" patterns". Are those 
> > really different letters or are they connected strokes due to the 
> > scribe? I wish I had an answer.
> 
> It is my belief that an alignment should be made with as 'near perfect'
> accuracy as possible, given our poor quality copies.  I believe that
since
> we are not quite sure of the scribe's intention, the manuscript should be
> recorded as accurately as possible from the scribe's own hand.  This
means
> connecting characters when the scribe connects them, and disjointing them
> when the scribe does.  If a gallows character is drawn as a single unit,
it
> should be recorded as a single unit, but when portions of that character
> are unconnected, it should be recorded as unconnected.  We all have
> different beliefs, so forgive me mine.  I do indeed understand how
> difficult and unsolveable a problem this question of transcription can
be.
> 
> I have a few black and white negatives made many years back, and prints
of
> these negatives that were probably part of the R. G. Kent collection,
since
> they correspond with the prints from Newbold's book.  I purchased them at
a
> fairly high price as an act of charity toward a fellow cryptologician who
> was down on his luck, and I cherish them for the many hours of enjoyment
I
> have gained from ownership of these aging photographs.
> 
> What they have taught me is that there is an urgent need for good color
> photographs, no matter what the cost.  Using these negatives and prints I
> can enlarge any area electronically to the point of seeing the vellum
grain
> and its interaction with the scribe's style.  There are instances where
the
> vellum is rough and the style skips, but a faint line can be seen that
> connects.  This cannot be viewed very often in the poor quality
photocopies
> that come from Yale.  My philosophy is to connect when the scribe does,
and
> disconnect when the scribe does.  I do not believe it proper to try to
read
> into what the scribe was doing.
> 
> I will try to restate my argument against more dissective methods of
> transcription in order to clarify my position somewhat, in hopes that you
> may understand what I would look for in a 'universal transcription'.
> 
> 1.  We all seem to go at this problem using our computers, without
> exception.  Computers are one-eyed creatures, ie., two-dimensional
animals
> without any depth perception.  I cannot tell my computer to turn some of
> the "CC" combinations into "U"'s, but not all of them into "U"'s when I
> have entered all "CC" combinations into the computer as "CC", without
> regard to those that are connected and therefore possibly different. 
> However, if I initially tell my computer that there might be something
> different about certain combinations, it will faithfully expand all
> questionable characters to "CC" and back to "U" again with just a
> keystroke, depending on my needs.
> 
> 2.  Databases are also one-eyed creatures, spawn of computers.  Programs
> require field lengths, and every time I add a character to the field
> length, I add bulk to my database.  While many of you seem to write one
> program after another to view your data, some of us just don't care to
> spend all that time writing programs.  I for one try to simplify my data
so
> I can spend more time analyzing results.  Any structured dBase program
with
> a sufficient query language saves time and energy, but my Voynich
database
> is already 20.6 MB once I add query, statistical and calculating fields. 
> Expanding my cipher character field by one to accomodate a "CC", a "Cc",
or
> even an "Ee" would add another 1.2 MB to my base of information.  I don't
> mind adding that amount, but I cannot see the gain in dissecting what is
> clearly written as a single character, especially when it becomes
difficult
> to reduce it back to what the scribe actually wrote in the first place.
> 
> 3.  Using two or more characters to represent a clearly contiguous
gallows
> character is beyond me.  It is much like representing an English "d" with
> the letters "c l" because their strokes are components of "d".  Load "c
l"
> into your database in place of "d" in an English letter and then try to
> reduce it to its base form.  We would reduce "close the cloor" to "dose
the
> door" instead of our intended objective, which was "close the door". 
When
> you apply this rule to a book of some 200 pages, you are then forced to
> proof read every page to correct this mistake.  On the other hand, when
we
> record "c l" as "c l" because they are not connected, and record the "d"
as
> a "d" because it is connected, the problem does not arise often, if at
all,
> even in a cipher manuscript.
> 
> 4.  Many scholars throughout Voynich history have fallen victim to
> Newbold's pattern of looking deep inside the characters for an answer. 
We
> on the other hand are better educated and equipped, much more so than our
> predecessors.  To go beyond the face value of the characters as they are
> represented by the scribe would be straying off the scientific path, and
> only when a clear case for such action can be presented should that
action
> be carried out.  This is my belief, and since we all hold different
> beliefs, please regard mine along with the others without prejudice.
> 
> The obstacles to Voynich solution are manifold, but the transcription
> problem is in my mind the Paramount of all obstacles.  Following the
> follies of older transcriptions is not the solution.  Even D'Imperio
> suggested that she wanted to combine characters but was forced by her
> earlier decisions to keep them divided.  We have the tools available to
us
> to keep us from mimicking such mistakes.  If you have put yourself
forward
> as a recorder, then duly record with all the accuracy available to you. 
> (This is not meant as chastisement, as you will see).
> 
> In order to record accurately, and in order for any transcription project
> to be successful, the manuscript must be present in a medium that allows
> the most accurate data to be recorded, which is far from the photostats
> handed out by Bienecke.  It is my feeling that only after we have full
> color prints of the manuscript can we achieve any form of accuracy
> commensurate with the record laid down by the scribe.
> 
> 
> Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 15 05:56:20 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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Subject: Re: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
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On 15 Jul 97 at 0:15, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> I set out to tabulate all reliable occurrences of the "tall letters
> with two legs" (that is, FSG [H], [D], [HZ], [DZ]; Guy's <qp>, <lp>,
> <eQPt>, <eLPt>; in my notation \lj/, \qj/, \cljc/, \cqjc/).
> 
> I extracted those letters, together with some context: any adjacent
> \c/ strokes, on either side (ignoring plumes and ligatures), plus the 
> first non-\c/ stroke (if any) at the right end.

Since the start of the new transcription, we've realised that there 
are "wrongly" coded complex gallows by the FSG and Currier's group. 
These include an "i" instead of a c on the left hand side (that is in 
eva (ikh) or (ith), etc. and some with thow "h": (cthh), (ckhh), etc.
Perhaps this would change the stats a bit?

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 15 09:59:05 1997
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To: Gabriel Landini <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Cc: VMs List <voynich@rand.org>
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From: Denis Mardle <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Re Hello
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 14:58:39 +0100 ( + )
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              From         Denis            15 July 1997

Gabriel  - you sent
   <<<<
On 14 Jul 97 at 14:14, Denis Mardle wrote:

>  I would like to point out that John Stojko ( now on
> the list ) in his 1978 book with a basic consonant
> only decipherment has Currier CC as NN  or M which
> is nicely logical.  Of course CCC could be NNN or MN
> or NM - I wonder if the "joins" indicate which ?

Do you mean eva "ee" = "inin" = "iin"? 

Gabriel
       >>>>>>

 Sorry I wasn't clear.   The eva is "ee"  or "eee" but the
NN or M meaning for "ee" are the alternative decipherments
in modern Ukranian consonants ( romanised ) with interspersed
vowels not enciphered as in old Hebrew etc.  Similarly for "eee"
as NNN or NM or MN and my query concerned the way the
"ee" or "eee" are joined .  On f16r "eee" deciphers as MANI. 
  Such joining is more obvious in the
Currier Z, eva "sh" which deciphers as the double consonant
DN with various vowel endings as ODNA, ODNE, ODNO, ODNU
and one ODYN.  Similarly  eva "she"  as ODNYNI.

 More on this subject of joinig at a later date.

 Cheers     Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 15 11:11:06 1997
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Date: 15 Jul 1997 11:05:25 -0500
From: "Guy Thibault" <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
Subject: Objet-  Amusing coincidence
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@RAND.ORG>
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Dear all,

Looking for a totally unrelated subject (a lexical definition... One might know so I
take the opportunity to pass it along... What is the term used to describe a function F(x),
with x part of set  {Y}, such that F(x) MUST ALWAYS BE in {Y}... For exemple what
would be the term to describe a function F that will always return a prime number
when given a prime number ??? ...)

Back to the topic...

I stumbled on this link:
http://www.irit.fr/ACTIVITES/EQ_IHMPT/participants/jacob/Publis/GRECO94.html

Here is the abstract of this paper entitled:
"Reconnaissance de Mots Isols par modlisation markovienne de sous-dictionnaires"

Abstract:

This paper describes a new strategy for very large vocabulary speech
recognition. The main problem is to reduce the lexical access without
pruning the correct candidate. We propose to exploit the branching structure
of BDLEX lexicon and the description of each word into root and flexional
ending. More we use the notion of phonetic classes to decompose the
dictionnary into sub-dictionnaries. We develop a two-stage recognition
algorithm :

-- Each dictionnary which is considered as a sequence of phonetics classes
is modeled by a HMM where the elementaries units are these phonetics
classes.

-- Each word is modeled by a classical HMM where the elementary unit is the
pseudo-diphone.

For an unknown word utterance, a first recognition gives the best
dictionnary to which it belongs, the Viterbi algorithm applied to the
network of the best dictionnary words, gives the word with the most
likelihood.


Could it be of use in the VMS context to identify the language????
I thought this would interest the linguists on the list so I took the liberty
to share this info ;-)

Comments anyone?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 15 11:17:22 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:07:31 +0000
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Stay calm! No, I am not selling insurance :-)

I wonder where is the sum of 24.000.000 for the insurance of the VMS 
that has been mentioned  is coming from. Any ideas?
Thanks
Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 15 12:47:22 1997
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http://bebe.uv.es/~vortex/lovecraft/necro2.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 15 18:02:05 1997
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Subject: Re: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au (Jacques Guy)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:57:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <9707152114.AA23445@medici.trl.OZ.AU> from "Jacques Guy" at Jul 16, 97 07:14:26 am
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> I could give more examples, for instance the f-like s and s-like
> s of 18th-century books and of German Gothic fonts, and I am sure
> that you can think of more.

So would that include "ae" in British books, or is that only used for 
certain Greek-derived words? (Haemoglobin, etc.)
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 16 00:11:04 1997
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Subject: Re: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
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    > [Jacques Guy:] That is evidence that qp and lp belong to the
    > same class of signs. For instance, consonant, or vowel, or
    > punctuation mark, or tone mark, or...  whatever.
    
That would certainly be a valid conclusion if the ordered lists were
only *roughly* similar.  However, I think that the relative
letter-in-context frequencies of <qp> and <lp> are too similar for it
being merely a consequence of phonetic kinship.

Let's try the same experiment with English. Here are tables for "t"
and "d" in a 50,000 word sample (a murder mystery text). The "context"
in this case is all the vowels (if any) on either side of the letter.

    8491  0.39  t                        3404  0.32  d
    1989  0.09  at                       2451  0.23  ed
    1712  0.08  to                        691  0.06  di
    1564  0.07  it                        684  0.06  de
    1377  0.06  ot                        657  0.06  ad
    1222  0.06  te                        500  0.05  do
     749  0.03  et                        289  0.03  aid
     617  0.03  ti                        247  0.02  ide
     533  0.02  ut                        188  0.02  ied
     505  0.02  ta                        133  0.01  day
     329  0.02  out                       121  0.01  ood
     191  0.01  tu                        111  0.01  ade
     189  0.01  ate                       106  0.01  ead
     166  0.01  tio                        91  0.01  doo
     140  0.01  too                        85  0.01  dea
     127  0.01  ty                         77  0.01  id
     126  0.01  tai                        74  0.01  da
     124  0.01  eat                        67  0.01  ud
     104  0.00  uite                       63  0.01  idea
      99  0.00  ity                        58  0.01  od
      88  0.00  atio                       48  0.00  du
      86  0.00  ite                        42  0.00  edi
     ...  ....  ....                      ...  ....  .... 

As you can see, even though "t" and "d" are phonetically similar,
their statistics are noticebly skewed because of their distinctive
roles in many common words and suffixes ("the", "that", "do", "it",
"-ed", "-ty", ...).

Here are the tables for "b" and "p", in the same text:

    1221  0.31  p                         761  0.25  be
     424  0.11  pe                        308  0.10  bu
     337  0.08  po                        284  0.09  b
     324  0.08  up                        251  0.08  bee
     282  0.07  pa                        189  0.06  by
     218  0.05  ap                        166  0.05  ab
     144  0.04  ep                        149  0.05  ba
     118  0.03  poi                       121  0.04  abou
     112  0.03  pi                        117  0.04  bo
     109  0.03  pu                        110  0.04  ib
      83  0.02  op                         69  0.02  ob
      81  0.02  pea                        48  0.02  ub
      77  0.02  ope                        48  0.02  bi
      57  0.01  ip                         45  0.01  bei
      35  0.01  pie                        42  0.01  bou
      30  0.01  upo                        41  0.01  oub
      30  0.01  eep                        39  0.01  bea
      24  0.01  poo                        29  0.01  ibi
      21  0.01  pai                        27  0.01  oba
      21  0.01  epa                        22  0.01  ibe
      19  0.00  opi                        18  0.01  boo
      16  0.00  pau                        13  0.00  beau
      15  0.00  peo                        12  0.00  boa
     ...  ....  ....                      ...  ....  .... 

(See if you can guess from this data (1) the murder weapon and
(2) the detective's favorite drink. 8-)

And here are the analogous tables for Portuguese 
(with ISO Latin-1 accents):

     447  0.24  p                         149  0.36  ob
     384  0.20  po                         44  0.11  ba
     326  0.17  pa                         41  0.10  bi
     161  0.09  pe                         22  0.05  b
     103  0.05  upe                        20  0.05  ub
      67  0.04  ap                         20  0.05  aba
      59  0.03  opo                        15  0.04  bo
      42  0.02  ep                         11  0.03  be
      32  0.02  ape                        10  0.02  abe
      30  0.02  ipo                         7  0.02  bu
      26  0.01  upo                         7  0.02  abo
      24  0.01  epe                         7  0.02  abai
      19  0.01  apa                         6  0.01  ibui
      18  0.01  poi                         6  0.01  b
      13  0.01  ope                         6  0.01  ab
      13  0.01  epa                         5  0.01  oba
      11  0.01  pu                          5  0.01  ibu
       9  0.00  p                          4  0.01  ube
       7  0.00  pou                         4  0.01  ebu
       7  0.00  ipai                        4  0.01  boa
       7  0.00  ip                          3  0.01  bai
       6  0.00  pi                         2  0.00  b
       6  0.00  op                          2  0.00  obe
       6  0.00  epoi                        2  0.00  ibi
     ...  ....  ....                      ...  ....  ....
     
(The isolated "p" comes mainly from "pr-" and "-mpr-" clusters,
as in "pronto" and "sempre"; the analogous "b" clusters being much 
rarer.)

Perhaps these are bad examples; English spelling is highly
non-phonetic, and Portuguese is not much better in that regard.

However, even in highly phonetic languages, like Spanish and Italian,
the letter-in-context statistics will be dominated by the most common
words and endings, and therefore are likely to differ noticeably even
for phonetically equivalent letters.

    > If, on the contrary, qp occurred where lp does not and vice
    > versa, that would be evidence that they are probably
    > equivalent.
    
I agree.  In fact, I wonder whether Frogguy <9> is merely a final form
of <a> (with the proviso that <9> may also be used in a few other
contexts, e.g. before a gallows letter or at beginning-of-line).
And whether <4> is the initial form of something else, perhaps <i>
or <2>.  Are these guesses plausible?

--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 16 03:23:04 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
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    > But, if the fit were so good in the VMS
    > as to be suspicious, what would that mean? A deliberate, and 
    > successful, attempt by the writers at having qp and lp in the
    > same distribution. The only way I can think of doing this reasonably
    > is by aleternating systematically: use lp, next time qp, and so on.

Note that the frequencies of <qp> and <lp> are quite different---
<lj> is twice as common.  It is the relative frequencies that 
are similar: <qpc9>/(total <qp>) ~ <lpc9>/(total <lp>), and so on.
That is, the choice of <qp> versus <lp> appears to be statistically
independent of the context.

At the risk of undermining my own theory, here is another puzzling
letter-in-context comparison.  

This time I am contrasting words that begin with <cc> against those
that begin with <sc> (where <s> is <c>-with-plume).  The context is
all succeding <s> and <c> strokes, plus the following character.

(In Unixese, that would be /^cc[cs]*./ against /^sc[cs]*./)

       192  0.33  _ccc8                     219  0.38  _scc8
        97  0.17  _cccH                      80  0.14  _sccH
        67  0.11  _ccc9                      71  0.12  _scc9
        52  0.09  _ccccH                     56  0.10  _scccH
        31  0.05  _cccc9                     38  0.07  _sccc8
        25  0.04  _ccco                      30  0.05  _scco
        22  0.04  _cc8                       23  0.04  _sccc9
        20  0.03  _cccc8                     19  0.03  _sco
        17  0.03  _cco                        9  0.02  _sc9
        17  0.03  _ccH                        7  0.01  _sca
        13  0.02  _cca                        6  0.01  _scca
        11  0.02  _ccca                       6  0.01  _scH
         8  0.01  _cccs_                      6  0.01  _sc8
         6  0.01  _cc9                        3  0.01  _sccco
         3  0.01  _ccccs_                     1  0.00  _sccccH
         1  0.00  _cccco                      1  0.00  _scccs_
         1  0.00  _ccccco                     1  0.00  _sccs_
         1  0.00  _cccca                      1  0.00  _sc_
         1  0.00  _cccsa                  -----  ----  ----
         1  0.00  _cccs9                    577  1.00  TOT
     -----  ----  ----                   
       586  1.00  TOT
  
As before, I have mapped <et> to <cc> and <e't> to <sc>.
Here "_" represents a word boundary, and "H" is any 
tall letter combination <qp>, <dj>, <lp>, <lj>. 
The gallows <eQPt>, <eLPt>, etc. are encoded
as <cHc>.

Note that the two columns are again similar, not only 
in relative terms but also absolutely.  That is,
it seems that the choice between initial <cc> and initial <sc> 
is random (50% each) and independent of the context. 
What do we make of it?

    > Ha ha! I aired the same idea here several years ago. It is
    > buried somewhere in the first two or three megabytes of the
    > archive.  ... But this is an old saw to old-time readers of this
    > list. I have mentioned those ideas all too often.

Oh well... Please bear with me while I learn the ropes...

I suppose it is too early for us to try to collect and organize these
"old" discoveries?

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 16 08:41:07 1997
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Subject: Re: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
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Dear all,

Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> At the risk of undermining my own theory, here is another
> puzzling letter-in-context comparison.

(example of Currier-S vs. Currier-Z) deleted

This is precisely what I have been arguing about even a few
weeks ago, indicating that the Currier-P vs. Currier-F seems
to behave the same way. Thanks to Jorge for providing the
detailed evidence. I am sure he came to the same conclusion
independently.
I am inclined to agree with Jacques that there's something
very fishy going on. (But what's new here...)

Now Currier-S is more frequent than Currier-Z, but their context
appears to be the same.
The same has been observed for P/F in the biological section.

If I may refer back to one of my earlier post, where
I compared 25 herbal-A
and 25 herbal-B pages: the absolute number of occurrences of
P and F in the herbal A was the same to within 1% !!
The number of occurrences of P in herbal B was also the same
to within 1%. The number of F's in herbal-B was double that.
This ratio fits with the Bio-B statistics.
Note further that the total number of characters was significantly
different on the A and B pages, but the correspondence of P's
between the two was in absolute numbers.

In order not to distract from the significance of these numbers,
I shall reluctantly postpone the speculative bit.
> I suppose it is too early for us to try to collect and organize
> these "old" discoveries?

IMHO that would be a most worthy task. Note that
they are all together in the mail archive files at Jim Reeds'
web site, but this is 'organized' as a mail log, not a book
(no criticism intended, it's great to have it). There are the
most fascinating treasures in there, mixed with the occasional
triviality. I distinctly remember tables produced by Frogguy
indicating for all possible pairs of characters whether they
tend to occur in the same context or not (but I don't remember
the conclusion :-/ ).

About 9 being word-final for A, this is a very logical idea.
Both can be word-initial, which is a bit of a bummer,
but A tends to start shorter words (units) and 9 longer
ones (exceptions excepted). 9 could very well be an
alternative for O as well, but since they all behave
vowel-like (in the sense that they are part of a smaller
group of characters that prefers to combine with a larger
group of characters) this is perhaps all spurious.

Finally a bit off the topic (but not completely), I only
found out recently that at the start of this millennium
Portugese was written in the Arabic script. When transcribed into
the Latin alphabet it was recognisable but odd. Lots of
'character overloading', in the same way as Mike Roe
pointed out was happening for the Arabic plant names in
Dioskurides.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 16 08:59:04 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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Commemorating the anniversary of the 1st Voynich Symposium, I 
proudly announce :-)  that considering the portions transcribed by 
Rene and me, the whole manuscript has been read completely in its 
first proofing.

Rene is finishing the Pharmaceutical section and I have the rosetta 
folios to finish.

Both versions will be merged and we will independently look at the 
discrepancies between the two, correct and re-merge. We hope that 
this will be much faster than the transcription itself.

regards to all,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 15 17:17:07 1997
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From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
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O nosso Brasileiro escrivou:


>I set out to tabulate all reliable occurrences of the "tall letters
>with two legs" (that is, FSG [H], [D], [HZ], [DZ]; Guy's <qp>, <lp>,
><eQPt>, <eLPt>; in my notation \lj/, \qj/, \cljc/, \cqjc/).
>
>I extracted those letters, together with some context: any adjacent
>\c/ strokes, on either side (ignoring plumes and ligatures), plus the 
>first non-\c/ stroke (if any) at the right end.

>Here are the absolute counts and fractions for each pattern:
>
>     \lj/ occurrences         \qj/ occurrences        
>    -------------------      -------------------       
>     425 0.27  ljci            149 0.21  qjci        
>     251 0.16  ljccg           129 0.18  qjccg       
>     244 0.16  ljcccg           79 0.11  qjcccg      

[snip]


>The encoding is explained below.  Independently of the encoding, the
>similarity between the two lists is remarkable: practically every
>context that occurs around \lj/ also occurs around \qj/, *with roughly
>the same relative frequency*.

That is evidence that qp and lp belong to the same class of signs. For
instance, consonant, or vowel, or punctuation mark, or tone mark, or...
whatever. It is also evidence that, within that class, they are
probably NOT equivalent. If, on the contrary, qp occurred where lp
does not and vice versa, that would be evidence that they are 
probably equivalent. I am sure no-one is convinced, so I will give
two examples.

1. Greek. There are two different shapes for lower-case sigma: the
   closed one, which looks like an "o", the open one, which looks
   like like an "s" or a "" (c-cedilla). The latter occurs only
   word-finally, the former, anywhere *except* word-finally. Yet,
   they are equivalent (Lower-case beta does the same, with a
   different distribution).

2. st in "properly" printed books. To see this, you will have to
   find a book printed quite a few years ago, before the advent
   of computers, and perhaps even earlier. In those days, the
   sequence "st" had its own font, where the "s" was linked to
   the "t" with a tiny tilde-shaped curlicue (~). So, you had
   s~ which occurred only before t, and plain s which occurred
   anywhere *except* before t. They were, of course, equivalent.
   (If you have one of those books, have a close look at ct, fi,
   and fl, too).

I could give more examples, for instance the f-like s and s-like
s of 18th-century books and of German Gothic fonts, and I am sure
that you can think of more.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 16 01:11:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gallows: [H] = [D] ?
Status: OR

Stolfi:
    
>That would certainly be a valid conclusion if the ordered lists were
>only *roughly* similar. 

It is true that too good a fit is suspect. That, if you toss a coin
100 times and come up with 50 tails and 50 tails, good. But if 
every time you toss that coin you come up with the same figure,
plus or minus one or two, that is evidence that something very
fishy is going on (sleight of hand, because I can't imagine a coin 
endowed with free will). But, if the fit were so good in the VMS
as to be suspicious, what would that mean? A deliberate, and 
successful, attempt by the writers at having qp and lp in the
same distribution. The only way I can think of doing this reasonably
is by aleternating systematically: use lp, next time qp, and so on.


>Let's try the same experiment with English. Here are tables for "t"
>and "d" in a 50,000 word sample (a murder mystery text).
>As you can see, even though "t" and "d" are phonetically similar,
>their statistics are noticebly skewed because of their distinctive
>roles in many common words and suffixes ("the", "that", "do", "it",
>"-ed", "-ty", ...).


Hmmmm.....



>Perhaps these are bad examples; English spelling is highly
>non-phonetic, and Portuguese is not much better in that regard.

Not bad examples. I must lay my hands on a Chinese corpus in pinyin and
try that. As recently mentioned on this list, Chinese has
properties rather akin to Tiltman's "root-suffix" hypothesis 
about the VMS.

    
>I agree.  In fact, I wonder whether Frogguy <9> is merely a final form
>of <a> (with the proviso that <9> may also be used in a few other
>contexts, e.g. before a gallows letter or at beginning-of-line).

Ha ha! I aired the same idea here several years ago. It is buried
somewhere in the first two or three megabytes of the archive. 
So, you have arrived quite independently at the same suspicion.
(I also suggested that <cc> was variant of <a>)

>And whether <4> is the initial form of something else, perhaps <i>
>or <2>.  Are these guesses plausible?

They are. But <2> often occurs preceding <o>. And I think that
<i> is a variant of <c>. But this is an old saw to old-time
readers of this list. I have mentioned those ideas all too often.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 16 21:38:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:10:12 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Hello
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I am very fond of your idea. We've been chatting with Rene about this 
> especial problem. There are just 2 or 3 areas in which I see that 
> your point applies.
> One is the "u" business. Yes, it seems that there are a number of eee 
> and ee which are low-connected. Now whether this is a letter or 
> just connected strokes is a difficult choice. But I agree that there 
> might be something there.
> 
> On the problem of the complex gallows, like cth ckh, ch, sh, etc. I 
> do not think that they pose a problem since with bitrans we can 
> change them into whatever we want, ie. a single character a la 
> Currier. Remember that the eva alphabet is only for the 
> transcription.
> So far  the possible objections are see those 2, the ee| u  and the 
> r|s.
> But as you pointed out, what about the EEe which is all three e 
> connected?
> 
> Perhaps in during out merging of the versions with Rene we could mark 
> the connected ee's?

Your effort to faithfully reproduce the Voynich is a valiant and difficult
task, especially with annoying people like me around.  Please do not take
my criticisms toward analytical transcription for anything more than an
attempt to get us all speaking the same language.

If you have two "C" characters that appear to be connected, couldn't you
transcribe them as "Cc" or "Ee", etc.?  In cases where three or four
characters in a row appear, the first letter of each character that appears
connected could be capitalized.  "Cc" for the "U" character, "Cc C" for two
connected and one not, i.e., "U C", etc.

Capitalization of the first connected segment of a data string is an
instruction to the computer to recognize something different, without
affecting your alignment processes.  If you entered the string "Cc C Cc
Cc", my computer could then easily recognize it as the string "U C U U".

This process would also allow you to dissect any character down to its
strokes if that was your objective.  As long as the first character of a
connected string is capitalized and the connecting strokes are in lower
case, the information can be as analytical as you choose without losing the
integrity of the scribe's own writing.  (This would of course assume a
transcription where all clearly singular characters are recorded in
capitalizations).  I would extend this notation to all characters that
appear connected in order to maintain scriptual integrity and proper
character synthesis.  It's funny how difficult seemingly simple matters can
be, but my transcription was based on a philosophy that seems to be absent
in many other transcriptions.  I really look forward to the day that I can
press a key and see that you can see what I see.

On other matters, I mentioned early on that you should record the numbers
of items found on pages, and I must repeat myself lest you have forgotten
those discussions.  Does your new EVMT transcription include this
numerology?  If not, you really should consider this addition on your next
proofreading.

My apologies for taking your time, and thanks for the careful attention to
what must seem like endless complaints from my end!


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 17 08:11:02 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Prefix/suffix table for the Biological section
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Status: OR


I remember seeing in the mail archives a simple "railroad" syntactic
diagram (by J. Reeds?) that generated most of the words in the VMs.

I tried to reconstruct such a diagram for the Biological section,
using my "blurred" stroke-level encoding.  

After a few hours of awk/grep hacking, I managed to identify a set of 19
prefixes and 18 suffixes whose (unambigous) combinations cover 76% of the word
occurrences in that text:

  PREFIXES = { 2 4oH 4oP 4ox H P c c3 cH ci ciH xH cccH ccccH oH oP ox oxH x } 
  
  SUFFIXES = { ccc3ci cc3ci ccci cccc3ci cim ci cix cci ci2 cccci ox cin o2 
               ccox cox ccccci cccox cco2 }

In case anyone is curious, the table and the encoding are to be found in

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/pref-suf-table.html

Hope it helps,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 17 08:17:02 1997
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Subject: Prefix/suffix table for the Biological section
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Status: OR





Dear all,

Stolfi wrote:

> ... I managed to identify a set of 19 prefixes and 18 suffixes
> whose (unambigous) combinations cover 76% of the word occurrences
>in that text:

(list deleted)

Very interesting.
Would it be possible to translate the lists to a more familiar
alphabet? Frogguy would seem appropriate. Currier might not work
I guess....

I guess this would involve a small growth in the length of the
list but that's not a problem.

It 's just that it would help most people if they could see
them in a more familiar notation...

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 16 21:11:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: VMS: from gallows to cc versus sc (ct versus c't in basic
  frogguy)
Status: OR

Second, I copied Jorge Stolfi's table.
Third, I wrote a quick-and-dirty program (very dirty, written very
quickly) to read it and calculate the chi-squared statistic on it.

First, I had though about it. The question was: is the distribution
of sc in that table *suspiciously* like that of cc? 

Now, if there is no pattern, that is, if the distribution does not
deviate from the expected, chi2 is going to be, approximately,
equal to the number of degrees of freedom minus one half. If
it is greater, then that means that the distribution of sc and
cc differ. It does not tells us by how much they differ, only 
how certain we can be that they differ. If it is *less* than
that (degrees of freedom minus one-half), then something fishy
is going on: the author have been doctoring their use of cc and
sc.

Here are the details of the computation. "obs." is for "observed
frequency", "exp." for "expected frequency". The last column is
the value of chi2 computed so far. Now, whenever you have expected
frequencies of less than 5, you ignore that data (this is why
chi2 stays unchanged lines 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 18, 19 and 22)

The value of chi2 is 29.35. The number of degrees of freedom would
be 21, but we had to ignore 9 data sets for which the expected
frequencies were less than 5. There is no consensus in the literature
about what you should do with such data. Some say merge cells randomly
until all expected frequencies are 5 or greater. Normally I just ignore
them and adjust the number of degree of freedom according (and I found
that it worked nicely). So here, I take them as 21-9=12. If it was all
random, that is, if no letter showed any particular affinity for another,
chi2 would be about 11.5. As it is (29.35), looking up a statistical
table, I find that we can by more than 99.5% sure that that is not
the case, i.e. we can be sure that letters show affinities. 
Does that also mean that the affinities of sc are different from
those of cc? In this case, yes. The expected frequency of a cell
(x,y) is the sum of row x by the sum of row y, divided by the
grand sum of all the cells: e(x,y)=sumRow(y)*sumCol(x)/GrandSum.
That is the value used in computing chi2, which gives the 
measure of the certainty that frequency follow a non-random 
pattern. But what we want to know here is whether sc and cc
have the same affinities with the other letters. In this
case, the value of chi2 is also the measure of how similar
the affinities of sc and cc to the rest are. (I was going
to explain why, but I got a phone call from my wife who
is without a car today, and I have to play chauffeur for
an hour or so. And I don't trust these Windoze to save my
message safely). The conclusion will be: sc and cc are
*certainly* distributed differently. The difference is
small, yes, but it is certain. Now I must run.


 
     
     obs.  exp.                  obs.  exp.                chi2

  1   6   13.89    _sc8          22   14.11        _cc8    8.90
  2   9    7.44    _sc9           6    7.56        _cc9    9.54
  3   7    9.92    _sca          13   10.08        _cca   11.25
  4 219  203.91    _scc8        192  207.09       _ccc8   13.47
  5  71   68.47    _scc9         67   69.53       _ccc9   13.66
  6   6    8.43    _scca         11    8.57       _ccca   15.05
  7  38   28.78    _sccc8        20   29.22      _cccc8   20.92
  8  23   26.79    _sccc9        31   27.21      _cccc9   21.98
  9   0    0.50    _sccca         1    0.50      _cccca   21.98
 10   0    0.50    _scccco        1    0.50     _ccccco   21.98
 11   1    0.50    _sccccH        0    0.50     _cccccH   21.98
 12  56   53.58    _scccH        52   54.42      _ccccH   22.20
 13   3    1.98    _sccco         1    2.02      _cccco   22.20
 14   1    1.98    _scccs_        3    2.02     _ccccs_   22.20
 15  80   87.82    _sccH         97   89.18       _cccH   23.58
 16  30   27.29    _scco         25   27.71       _ccco   24.12
 17   0    0.50    _sccs9         1    0.50      _cccs9   24.12
 18   0    0.50    _sccsa         1    0.50      _cccsa   24.12
 19   1    4.47    _sccs_         8    4.53      _cccs_   24.12
 20   6   11.41    _scH          17   11.59        _ccH   29.21
 21  19   17.86    _sco          17   18.14        _cco   29.35
 22   1    0.50    _sc_           0    0.50        _cc_   29.35




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul 20 04:17:22 1997
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Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:04:43 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Currier-S versus Currier-Z
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Status: OR


Time for crazy ideas...

Earler I posted some statistics for selected contexts around Currier-S
and Currier-Z, and remarked that the choice between these two signs
seemed to be largely independent of the local context.  Jacques Guy
did detect a small dependence; but, while statistically significant,
the dependence still seems too small for the two signs to be diffrent
letters.

Of course, one possible explanation for this independence is that the
plume (or the entire character!) is just a cyptographic "null".  As
Jim Reeds pointed out, there is plenty of (very close) historical
precedent for such a trick.

I thought of another possible, if far-fetched,
explanation: the plume is just a stress mark.

In many languages, the stress pattern of a word does have some
semantic value (as in "record" noun versus "record" verb). However, in
many such languages (including most of the Romance family) the primary
stress often moves around when the word is inflected or derived.

Thus, for instance, Italian "SCRIvere" ("to write") inflects as
"scriVEvo" ("I was writing") and "scriveR" ("I will write"); and from
it one can derive "scriTTOre" ("writer") "scrittoREllo" ("small
writer"), "scrittoreLLIno" ("very small writer"), "srittuRArio"
(~"scribal"), "scritturariaMENte" ("scribally"), etc.

Standard Italian spelling generally does not record stress, but some
other languages (such as Spanish and Portuguese) use diacritics mainly
for that purpose.  And the plume on Currier-Z DOES look like a diacritic...

Why would the VMs author use stress marks?  Well, I feel that a
"stress-conscious" amateur linguist who sets out to invent a radically
new spelling system for an existing language will tend to use plenty of
explicit stress marks at first, because the pronunciation would seem
ambiguous without them.  Thus, for example, invented spelling systems
for Italian dialects, even those invented by Italians, seem to use
more stress marks than standard Italian.

For each specific language, one can usually find "default" stress
rules that allow the omission of most stress marks.  However, in
languages with shifting stress, such rules can be quite complex, and
hard to guess a priori: they tend to be the result of natural
evolution, rather than conscious design.

Note that my analysis of Currier-S versus Currier-Z considered only
limited local contexts; thus it would not necessarily have detected
any correlation between the absence of plume in the stem and the
presence of particular "plume-stealing" suffixes.

I tried to gather supporting evidence for this "plume=stress"
hypothesis by redoing my statistical analysis for Portuguese,
comparing (say) accented-"o" with plain-"o" in various contexts.
Unfortunately, the "default" stress rules for Portuguese are such that
stress marks are omitted from most words, especially those with
shifting stress (such as inflected verbs).  The relatively few words
that have diacritics tend to be somewhat anomalous (rare diphtongs,
particular prefixes and sufixes, etc.), and tend to retain their
stress pattern under inflection.

As a consequence, the probability of a Portuguese vowel carrying a
stress mark DOES depend strongly on its local context; but this fact
is not strong evidence against the "plume=stress" hypothesis.

For a more meaningful test, one should compare the stressed/unstressed
letter-in-context frequencies for some Latin or Romance text where the
stress has been explicitly marked in all words.  Does anyone have such
text at hand?

And, of course, we should check that hypothesis on the VMs itself,
by looking whether the presence/absence of a plume on a particular
prefix is correlated with its suffixes (or vice-versa)...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 21 09:02:20 1997
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Subject: Re: Currier-S versus Currier-Z
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Stolfi wrote:
> Time for crazy ideas...

> Jacques Guy did detect a small dependence; but, while
> statistically significant, the dependence still seems
>too small for the two signs to be diffrent letters.

A check (e.g. usage of S in the two halves of, say, the
stars section) might be useful. If that shows that they
are statistically different too, we know that the test is
too 'strict'.

> I thought of another possible, if far-fetched,
> explanation: the plume is just a stress mark.

Stress or some other diacritic.
There is however one snag:
Why only on the Currier-S and not on any other character!!
(Yes I do know there are a dozen or so plumes on 9, O and A
but that's probably <1% of the lot)

The answer should be clear: it is not the plume which is the
diacritic, but the Currier-S itself. This can occur with
the plume (a miniature 9), and with the gallows.
Or perhaps S and Z are two different diacritical marks?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 21 08:35:13 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>, voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:30:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: Currier-S versus Currier-Z
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Status: OR

On 20 Jul 97 at 5:04, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> I thought of another possible, if far-fetched,
> explanation: the plume is just a stress mark.

Jacques suggested something similar and that why (i think) 
Rene chose ch and sh those letters.

> Standard Italian spelling generally does not record stress, but some
> other languages (such as Spanish and Portuguese) use diacritics mainly
> for that purpose.  And the plume on Currier-Z DOES look like a diacritic...

Although note that for Spanish around the 1300's was written with no 
diacritics (accents) at all (except the c with cedilla for the sound 
sh). In Spanish, rules for accentuation are very clear, it depends on 
the syllable that the stress is. and the ending of the word. That is 
why (unlike English, for example) you know exactly how a word sounds 
without having heard it before). I really wonder if one can get any 
information from the diacritics in Spanish.

Japanese is a bit funny, you accent by enlarging the vowels like in 
obasan (aunt) accent in "an"
obaasan (grand ma) accent in "aa".

Cheers,

Gabriel 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 21 10:20:39 1997
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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:18:26 +0200
Subject: Re: Currier-S versus Currier-Z
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Dear all,

> On 21 Jul 97 at 13:30, I (Gabriel Landini) wrote this nonsense::
>
>> Jacques suggested something similar and that why (i think)
>> Rene chose ch and sh those letters.
>
>What I meant was that Rene chose Currier S and Currier Z as closely
>related sounds to be written in eva as ch as sh.
>Is that correct  Rene?

Yes, in the EVA alphabet Cur-S and Cur-Z are also represented as
'similar' characters. I chose 'ch' because it is one phoneme, yet
can be split up to accommodate the intruding gallows.
Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 21 10:17:44 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:11:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: Currier-S versus Currier-Z
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On 21 Jul 97 at 13:30, I (Gabriel Landini) wrote this nonsense::

> Jacques suggested something similar and that why (i think) 
> Rene chose ch and sh those letters.

What I meant was that Rene chose Currier S and Currier Z as closely 
related sounds to be written in eva as ch as sh. 
Is that correct  Rene?

Gabriel

 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 22 05:38:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:34:29 +0200
Subject: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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Dear all,

We (Gabriel and yours truly) are again looking for
some opinions, this time related to the representation
of the so-called 'weirdoes' in transcription files in
the Currier or FSG alphabet.
No consensus was ever reached on this in the
past. The synthetic approach by Jim Reeds gives
each weirdo a number. These numbers are not
found in voynich.now or the FSG output, however.
In those files, most (but not all) weirdoes have
been swept under the carpet, so to speak. This is
simply the approach taken by Friedman, Currier
and D'Imperio. The analytical approach by Frogguy
has been implemented in his alphabet and allows
the representation of most of the weirdoes using
the Frogguy alphabet.
In  EVA, the alphabet we're using internally, but which
we wouldn't want to force upon anybody :-), both
notations are possible (analytical and synthetic),
and conversion between the  two is possible with
one bitrans file. To give a few examples:
the picnic table is representable by the character
x. It may also be known (once the table is complete)
as $120 or the 20th item in weirdo family 1.
The Currier W with an additional C at the end may
be written analytically as (cphh) and synthetically
as $410. For the version of Currier W that has
the characters '43' instead of the normal gallows,
only a $711 (e.g.) is available.
This is all fine in EVA, where the numbers cannot be
accidentally mistaken for other characters. But when
translating the EVA files to Currier, (which is what
we expect most people would prefer to have) we
have to decide what to do. The weirdo $489 is
not the same as 489. Certainly a nearest-equivalent
BITRANS table will be provided but this is lossy,
and some weirdoes can only be converted to * for
'unreadable'. Another option would be to
convert the weirdoes as follows:
$123 becomes *{$123} which still means 'unreadable'
but the comment indicates what was originally there.
Not too great for machine processing, except that
you can still use all your analysis tools, if they are
capable of ignoring comments (or you just preprocess
the file with  VTT).
Yet another idea would be not to write $123 but
instead $123; (with the semi-colon). Then, all of
a sudden, BITRANS can be told to leave the numbers
alone. Your own favourite programs might still get
confused though.

What would you all like for the Currier conversion of
our EVA file(s):
1) A clear identification of the weirdo (please propose how)
2) The weirdo indication in a comment
or should we:
3) just leave it to everybody to convert EVA to Currier if
he wants.
We certainly would not like to produce a transcription
file that nobody wants to use!

Note that there are somewhere between 175 and 200
different weirdoes, where less than half cannot be
represented analytically.

Looking forward to any suggestions, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 22 16:23:18 1997
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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:17:39 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

>  But when translating the EVA files to Currier, (which is what
> we expect most people would prefer to have) we
> have to decide what to do.

    IMHO (for what it's worth) all the previously used transcript systems
have shortfalls that cause many of us to try working with our own versions.
Currier is the most commonly used no doubt, but alas it doesn't allow for a
lot of variation to the restricted set. EVA and Frogguy certainly have
expanded the capabilities and I look forward to the new and improved
version... As for wierdo's, I'm really not sure EVA can't be expanded to
include - let's call them diacritics for expediency sake. If a known
character exists within a wierdo - only that wierdo has an extended
diacritic - could the transcript then show G" or G' or G* or how many minor
wierdo's are there? As for the major wierdo's where there is absolutely no
similarity with any other Voynich character - well I think you need to
attach a referenced graphical table.  One character in particular comes to
mind that I don't think should be classed as a wierdo - although it doesn't
exist in any earlier transcript alphabet it really is quite frequent:
namely the C character with the ligature extending from the bottom of the C
upwards in the same fashion as the Currier D does.

                Good luck Rene and Gabriel!  I'm sure that whatever the
final outcome, it will be a vast improvement over present systems.

John.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 23 06:17:02 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:15:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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Hi all,

On 22 Jul 97 at 16:17, John & Sue Grove wrote:
>     IMHO (for what it's worth) all the previously used transcript systems
> have shortfalls that cause many of us to try working with our own versions.
> Currier is the most commonly used no doubt, but alas it doesn't allow for a
> lot of variation to the restricted set.

I must say that I do not like Currier at all. I know that most of the 
research work was based on it and all the credits to Currier & co. 
for creating it, but I doubt very much that characters like 0, 3, 5 
are really only one.  FSG seems more reasonable in this respect, but 
after all (and if things go well) the eva file will be possible to 
translate (although in some cases "one way" to Currier, FSG 
and Basic Frogguy (with the exception of the differences between 
intruding and non intruding plumes).

> As for wierdo's, I'm really not sure EVA can't be expanded to
> include - let's call them diacritics for expediency sake. If a known
> character exists within a wierdo - only that wierdo has an extended
> diacritic - could the transcript then show G" or G' or G* or how many minor
> wierdo's are there? As for the major wierdo's where there is absolutely no
> similarity with any other Voynich character - well I think you need to
> attach a referenced graphical table.  

Well, there are quite a few that can be represented in eva and 
probably most in Frogguy. Note that a lot of weirdo-stuff is created 
by connecting the common V characters, and this sort of notation is 
supported by Frogguy and eva.
However the feedback that Rene was trying to get from the list is 
what format would people prefer for the notation of a weirdo.
Let's suppose that in the eva file there will be a complex gallow 
(ith). This has no counterpart in Currier or FSG.
The point is: how do we translate weirdoes into those alphabets, so 
they are:
a) still there, and 
b) do not interfere with the script.

So far, as Rene pointed out, we have some ideas but we want some more 
feedback:

1. translate all weirdoes as unreadable characters "*". This is 
reasonable because in Currier it does not exist, but you loose useful
information.

2. Translate as the nearest thing (we thought of this but we've 
not decided on any near thing for any weirdo yet). Plus not all 
weirdoes have a "nearest thing".

3. Translate the weirdoes into analytical Frogguy. Very tempting, but 
then we have 2 alphabets at the same time.

4. Translate into something so we still can know which unreadable 
character it is. This is what we want to do, and here is where the 
problems start.  Following the idea of Jim Reeds, we'll have a weirdo 
table. So the most obvious thing is to put a "meta-code" in the file 
indicating which weirdo number it corresponds to. So far we decided 
that weirdoes start with a dollar symbol and have a fixed 3 digits 
number ie: $009 or $123
If we use this in Currier, it will incorporate problems  since all 
the number characters are also used to code for V-script. So, what to 
do?  We will have to agree to some notation for avoiding mixing the 
weirdo code with the script (note that if one wants to transcribe 
back from Currier with weirdoes to something else, the code will be 
handled as script!). One way out of this would be to include in each 
bitrans table all the weirdoes translating into themselves again, so 
the numbers are not handled as "V-code". This is quite messy (about 
200 weirdoes in every single bitrans table).

So one option is to translate weirdoes as: "unreadable character 
in the font set (alphabet) , but with code $nnn".
  This can be  written as: *{$123}. Why? only because the { } have 
been used for inline comments (not voynich code) in the previous 
transcriptions and because Bitrans can be configured so comments 
inside the { } are left untouched. As another option we could be 
using $123; instead of the { }. In any case, it is possible to search 
for particular weirdoes because they always have the $.

But there are still problems as how are people going to "avoid" 
the code in the file when counting characters or sorting words, etc. 
It is clear that we have to resort to this "meta-code" type of 
approach, but perhaps somebody in the list has some good 
ideas. Please, time to speak up!

> One character in particular comes to
> mind that I don't think should be classed as a wierdo - although it doesn't
> exist in any earlier transcript alphabet it really is quite frequent:
> namely the C character with the ligature extending from the bottom of the C
> upwards in the same fashion as the Currier D does.

I think that we call this eva -b. It has been translated previously 
as eva n (Currier D). It seems to be "context sensitive" and 
preceded by "ee".  I know it is not in the eva font set to download 
from the evmt site, mostly because we have not decided whether we 
want it as a new character or just a weirdo.

Cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 23 13:23:28 1997
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Date: 23 Jul 1997 13:19:21 -0500
From: "Guy Thibault" <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
Subject: Objet-  Transcription ideas
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@RAND.ORG>
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Hello all,

Just a quick response to the latest emails...
Would not the purpose of such a transcription be to have a file which we could 
analyse... WIth a program???

Then, would the fact of keeping it "readable" bring undue complications... Such as 
described in the latest emails...

Would it now be simpler to "escaped" the weirdos... It would still be readable
(with vi ;-) but a program parsing the data could interpret the code in a special way...
For instance: 8AM O4CC\27A 4AM
The two code "\27A" represent an ASCII escape sequence, followed by a letter or 
letters. The two codes would represent ONE letter or weirdo...

If you need a large set of special caracters/weirdos, some scheme like this might work
(and it keeps the file readable, I often use it...)
\27nnn, where nnn if the hexadecimal ASCII representation of a single code. Thus we would
have a 4 characters special code. Thus whenever we encounter a code ascii 27, we know
the following three digits are the codification of a number representing the weirdo!
Like this: \270C0 (representing number hex "0c0", or 192 if I recall my math!)... 
This allows for 16*256 codes or weirdos!
We only need a conversion table to associate the weirdo and 
its 3 digit hex code. It keeps the file reasonably readable withal allowing a parser to
correctly identify the weirdos or special characters...


Just thought I'd share my two cents


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 24 09:05:05 1997
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Subject: Re: Objet- Transcription ideas
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Dear Guy,

your suggestion is essentially what we now have
in preparation, where the espace character is replaced
by a dollar sign (more friendly on I/O devices).
This does however put the burden on all software to
recognise and process the dollar sign correctly, i.e.
treat the next 'n' (n=3) characters in a special way.
For the currently available transcription files this was not
needed. Quite specifically, BITRANS cannot be instructed
to do the following (unless I'm grossly mistaken):

  if  (character == '$') {
    do not translate next 3 characters;
  }

However, if there is a weirdo closing delimiter, BITRANS will
be able to do it:

  if  (character == '$') {
    do not translate characters up to '<y>';
  }

Furthermore, the EVMT transcription files will have a lot
of information for the human reader, just like the current
Currier files. There is a tool to automatically strip this
all off though.

Kind regards, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 24 10:26:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:14:41 +0200
Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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With Jacques' suggestion we're almost there,
but not quite.

In the synthetic case, $123; is weirdo number 123,
which is tr.alphabet-independent. Bitrans files
containing a line

$comment;

would leave the numbers alone, even if
they would mean something in the alphabet.

So far so good.

Now for the analytical case:

> if you use an analytic notation (Frogguy or Eva), just
> put the identifying letter after the $, E for EVA, F for
> frogguy. For instance

> $Fcqptt;
> Bitrans will take care of the conversion
> from this system into that system or other.

A fascinating concept. $F.....; would indicate:
embedded Frogguy. BITRANS would not touch it,
if the same $comment; line is provided.
But if we want to translate it, as you indicate,
how do we instruct BITRANS?

Of course, in Frogguy one can just write cqptt or
probably CQPTt. In EVA (cthh) or CTHh.
In Currier one could then write:

SOE.$E(cthh);89   or   SOE.$Fcqptt;89

but I agree with Gabriel that this creates more
complications than it solves. And I don't think
this is what Jacques intended above. How about some
inverse capitalisation (decapitation) rule in Currier?

> On the matter of weirdoes now. Some of those weirdoes
> are *very* common. For instance $Fit; (which I think
> would be $E(i'h); (is that right?))

$E(ih);

> ... is *very* common, much more common than
> Currier 0, 3 and I forgot what.

One of the two, I forget which, is actually not
all that uncommon. It's the M with one leg too
many - $Fiiiv;. A pity that FSG transcribed N, M
and (I think) 0 all as M.

But some frequent weirdoes are more common than
some infrequent Currier characters. Absolutely
true. And this $Fit; is giving me fits. Petersen
is not 100% consistent. Sometimes the i-stroke
seems very deliberate. Sometimes it seems that it
was really only a half-hearted c-stroke.

> That is one of the reasons why I think, with Gabriel,
> that Currier is inadequate. Only EVA or Frogguy give
> an accurate enough transcription.

So the ultimate answer to the original question (how
to render weirdoes in Currier) should have become clear
to the attentive reader by now.

Just don't to it. :-)

One can learn Frogguy or EVA in half an hour.
I still can't remember what Currier-3, Currier-Y
Currier-5 Currier-K and a handful of others are.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 23 21:56:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 11:38:28 EST
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Rene:

>
>Yet another idea would be not to write $123 but
>instead $123; (with the semi-colon). Then, all of
>a sudden, BITRANS can be told to leave the numbers
>alone. 

There you are. $ is not used in any of the
transcriptions (FSG, SSG, Currier, Bennett, Frogguy,
EVA), so there is no ambiguity, and this notation
can be used with any of those transcription schemes.

Next, the question of anlytical or synthetic notations
for weirdoes. No need to decide: if you use an analytic
notation (Frogguy or Eva), just put the identifying 
letter after the $, E for EVA, F for frogguy. For instance

$Fcqptt;

Or, if you want to splits hairs -- and that might
turn out to be necessary -- put a character after F
to indicate which frogguy it is: basic, advanced, 
whatever. Bitrans will take care of the conversion
from this system into that system or other.


Voil! C'tait tout simple, suffisait d'y penser.

On the matter of weirdoes now. Some of those weirdoes
are *very* common. For instance $Fit; (which I think
would be $E(i'h); (is that right?)), $Fit; I was
saying, is *very* common, much more common than 
Currier 0, 3 and I forgot what. That is one of the
reasons why I think, with Gabriel, that Currier is
inadequate. Only EVA or Frogguy give an accurate
enough transcription.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 24 12:44:05 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org, Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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On 24 Jul 97 at 11:38, Jacques Guy wrote:

> There you are. $ is not used in any of the
> transcriptions (FSG, SSG, Currier, Bennett, Frogguy,
> EVA), so there is no ambiguity, and this notation
> can be used with any of those transcription schemes.

Agreed. The next bit is how do we keep the weirdo code out, so it is 
not necessary to write each time (!) the whole list of weirdos in a 
Bitrans table. Is it of any advantage to use the delimiters $ ; or is 
it better to use { } ?
I take Rene's point that when you get rid of all inline comments with 
VTT then you loose all weirdos codes as well... So $ ; could be used 
to keep weirdo codes while getting rid of all other comments...

> Next, the question of anlytical or synthetic notations
> for weirdoes. No need to decide: if you use an analytic
> notation (Frogguy or Eva), just put the identifying 
> letter after the $, E for EVA, F for frogguy. For instance
> 
> $Fcqptt;
> 
> Or, if you want to splits hairs -- and that might
> turn out to be necessary -- put a character after F
> to indicate which frogguy it is: basic, advanced, 
> whatever. Bitrans will take care of the conversion
> from this system into that system or other.

I would be tempted to keep the length of the delimiters fixed so 
there is no (human) confusion; let's say the $ symbol plus 1 
letter (E for eva, B for basic Frogguy, F for (the proper) Frogguy 
and W for the numerical weirdo code (fixed 3 digits). We've used this 
approach (one letter) for the loci and page variables sorting as 
well.

Further suggestions are appreciated. 

> On the matter of weirdoes now. Some of those weirdoes
> are *very* common. For instance $Fit; (which I think
> would be $E(i'h); (is that right?)),

It may be that or $E(ih);? and the combinations of the type 
$E(i-gallow-h); as well.

Cheers,

Gabriel (who'll be out of the mail until next week)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 24 14:32:04 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, "Jacques B.-M. Guy" <j.guy@trl.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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Hi,

We're almost there!

On 24 Jul 97 at 16:14, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> > $Fcqptt;
> > Bitrans will take care of the conversion
> > from this system into that system or other.
> 
> A fascinating concept. $F.....; would indicate:
> embedded Frogguy. BITRANS would not touch it,
> if the same $comment; line is provided.
> But if we want to translate it, as you indicate,
> how do we instruct BITRANS?

You could set lines in the table of (for instance) EVA 2 FROGGUY 
that say:

$E $F
; (zero)

and you leave the rest to be translated as usual. Non translated 
bits will be left alone, and we will not know where :-(

But note that this will not always work anyway. The problem now would 
be the unstranslatable weirdoes $Wnnn; 

In that case we can add to the table the untranslatables (wow! sp?):

$W001; $W001;
etc.

Which will be much less than 200 (?).
But again, some $W; can be written as $F; HELP!!!

> SOE.$E(cthh);89   or   SOE.$Fcqptt;89
> but I agree with Gabriel that this creates more
> complications than it solves. And I don't think
> this is what Jacques intended above. How about some
> inverse capitalisation (decapitation) rule in Currier?

What for? I don't understand....

Well what if we provide the same translation in all the alphabets so 
people stop bothering :-)?

Now, seriously, we could provide:
1. The EVA file with weirdoes in EVA (no special marks) and 
only the $W; codes for the unwritable ones. 
This is what we have been doing so far. Some EVA combinations will 
also have a $W; code which will be available separatedly as a 
Weirdoes Table (suggestions for more interesting names are 
appreciated!).

2. The EVA 2 Currier long table with EVA 2 $W; codes and $(comment); 
to leave alone the ones that are already there. Remember that the EVA 
file would have only the $W; ones.

3. The EVA 2 Frogguy table, plus the $W; 2 FRO codes for those that 
can be written in Frogguy (those not in the list will be left as $W;) 
I seem to remember that all weirdoes that can be written in eva 
can also be written in Frogguy. Is that the case?

4. The Currier 2 FSG table using the $(comment); line so all the 
weirdoes are kept intact in $W; code. All things that are not 
writable in Currier *are* weirdoes following our (undesirable!) 
principle. Those weirdoes in Currier are also weirdoes in FSG. 

5. The table to translate  EVA into $W; code and its reverse. The 
EVA text resulting from this could be called "brief EVA" which 
is the EVA that Currier could talk :-) or the EVA that you have to 
learn, to speak Currier. Ok, let's forget about brief EVA :-) but 
the table may be useful.

6. The table to translate  Frogguy into $W; code and its reverse.
These last 2 tables can be used in the Currier and FSG versions of 
the files to make most of the $W; codes readable in an alternative 
alphabet (EVA or Frogguy).

Phew! Did I leave anything out?

> But some frequent weirdoes are more common than
> some infrequent Currier characters. Absolutely
> true.

I think that the EVA-j (Frogguy &?) appears only a few of times 
in Currier's file. EVA-b is seems more common and extremely clear.

> So the ultimate answer to the original question (how
> to render weirdoes in Currier) should have become clear
> to the attentive reader by now.
> Just don't to it. :-)

Well, this is all Ok, but there may be some (obscure) reason to go 
back to Currier or FSG and we always said that this was going to be 
possible with EVA.

I think that what is outlined above would work. But then people who 
are likely to work with Currier alphabet should be aware that they 
will encounter the $; stuff. One could also provide an option to 
write it all in the original Currier, with the weirdoes all as "*".

Does anybody see any gross disadvantage on using these 
$whatever; code in the file? If so are there any workarounds that may 
improve anything?

As usual, all comments are welcome.

(I keep saying that this is my last mail until next week and I keep 
uploading messages!)

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 24 16:59:03 1997
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> Weirdoes Table (suggestions for more interesting names are appreciated!).

 Table of Characters not identified by the Pioneers! 8-)

    As for those of us who have used Currier for discussion between
alphabets, there really is no reason why we couldn't all adopt EVA as the
default set for open discussion. Everyone (and I risk speaking for
everyone) agrees that the early alphabets aren't accurate enough to relate
all the character combinations found. EVA and Frogguy have been getting
better and with your present efforts, I'm sure more of the manuscript being
available on line in a more accurate 'default' alphabet will suffice for
all discussions. There is no reason (that I can think of) to hold on to the
Pioneer's alphabets. They were a good starting point, but for accurate
analysis they just don't work - and almost every one of us have been trying
to develope more accurate computerized representations of the text. EVA are
far ahead of most efforts to make the whole manuscript readable for
analysis and I think I'll gladly learn EVA - thus in my humble opinion, I
don't think it is necessary to try to make EVA squeeze into Bitrans
conversions to alphabets that don't support all the characters.  This could
also mean we get to see the results of Rene and Gabriels work sooner 8-)!

                            John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 24 23:59:04 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@paw.montana.com>
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Subject: RE: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:16:41 -0600
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----------
From: 	Jacques Guy[SMTP:j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au]
Sent: 	Friday, July 25, 1997 9:22
To: 	voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)

rzandber@esoc.esa.de:

>A fascinating concept. $F.....; would indicate:
>embedded Frogguy. BITRANS would not touch it,
>if the same $comment; line is provided.
>But if we want to translate it, as you indicate,
>how do we instruct BITRANS?

You don't declare $...; as enclosing comments.
You just tell bitrans what to translate it into:

$F123;  GLUG


>Of course, in Frogguy one can just write cqptt or
>probably CQPTt. In EVA (cthh) or CTHh.
>In Currier one could then write:

>SOE.$E(cthh);89   or   SOE.$Fcqptt;89

>but I agree with Gabriel that this creates more
>complications than it solves. And I don't think
>this is what Jacques intended above.

It's not what I intended, but it's what it leads to,
unfortunately. Currier just can't represent those
weirdoes. So you need a hybrid system, like the above,
or:

>How about some
>inverse capitalisation (decapitation) rule in Currier?

You are still left with the problem that Currier does
not have representations for the bits and pieces that
are needed to represent most weirdoes. Even $E(ih);
$Fit; you cannot represent without resorting to a
hybrid system. And this is a common weirdo.


>But some frequent weirdoes are more common than
>some infrequent Currier characters. Absolutely
>true. And this $Fit; is giving me fits. Petersen
>is not 100% consistent. Sometimes the i-stroke
>seems very deliberate. Sometimes it seems that it
>was really only a half-hearted c-stroke.


Still, in many instances it is very clearly i-like.
Now, there are other distressing weirdoes. I remember
having encountered an M (frogguy iiv), all the i-strokes
of which were in fact c-strokes.


My $.02; says that the fore and aft delimiters with numbered wierdoes can 
handle a lot of things.  In fact, unknown or smeared characters can be 
handled in that notation as well, which would clean up the text for machine 
analysis?

best to all, Don


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Jul 25 03:38:02 1997
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Subject: RE: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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Frogguy and Don contributed:

>>A fascinating concept. $F.....; would indicate:
>>embedded Frogguy. BITRANS would not touch it,
>>if the same $comment; line is provided.
>You don't declare $...; as enclosing comments.
>You just tell bitrans what to translate it into:
>
> $F123;  GLUG

Yes, with a long table it will always be possible.


>>SOE.$E(cthh);89   or   SOE.$Fcqptt;89

> It's not what I intended, but it's what it leads to,
> unfortunately. Currier just can't represent those
> weirdoes. So you need a hybrid system, like the above,
> ...
> You are still left with the problem that Currier does
> not have representations for the bits and pieces that
> are needed to represent most weirdoes. Even $E(ih);
> $Fit; you cannot represent without resorting to a
> hybrid system. And this is a common weirdo.

Yes. So with John Groves I would recommend people to
consider to get more familiar with one of Frogguy or EVA.

My previous comments on the qualities of the Currier
alphabet should not be seen as a distraction from
the good work of all previous transcribers.
I want to make that very clear.

> Now, there are other distressing weirdoes. I remember
> having encountered an M (frogguy iiv), all the i-strokes
> of which were in fact c-strokes.

Yes. This is 'eeb' in EVA. The b is like $Fc); or Jim's
X13. A gut feeling tells me this is italicised EVA iin
or Frogguy iiv. Why? The b is always preceded by one or
two e's, most often two. Just like EVA n is most often
preceded by to ii's somewhat less by one.

>From Don:

> My $.02; says that the fore and aft delimiters with numbered
> wierdoes can handle a lot of things.  In fact, unknown or
> smeared characters can be handled in that notation as well,
> which would clean up the text for machine analysis?

Yes, the synthetic notation is a bit easier on the
use of 'tabulating machines'. No need to decode
$F9-qp+t; since the number already provides an
index just like the ascii code of the other characters.
Both approaches have their merit. And in Currier
and FSG it seems that the synthetic approach is the
only option.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 24 20:29:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
Status: OR

rzandber@esoc.esa.de:

>A fascinating concept. $F.....; would indicate:
>embedded Frogguy. BITRANS would not touch it,
>if the same $comment; line is provided.
>But if we want to translate it, as you indicate,
>how do we instruct BITRANS?

You don't declare $...; as enclosing comments.
You just tell bitrans what to translate it into:

$F123;  GLUG


>Of course, in Frogguy one can just write cqptt or
>probably CQPTt. In EVA (cthh) or CTHh.
>In Currier one could then write:

>SOE.$E(cthh);89   or   SOE.$Fcqptt;89

>but I agree with Gabriel that this creates more
>complications than it solves. And I don't think
>this is what Jacques intended above. 

It's not what I intended, but it's what it leads to,
unfortunately. Currier just can't represent those
weirdoes. So you need a hybrid system, like the above,
or:

>How about some
>inverse capitalisation (decapitation) rule in Currier?

You are still left with the problem that Currier does
not have representations for the bits and pieces that
are needed to represent most weirdoes. Even $E(ih);
$Fit; you cannot represent without resorting to a
hybrid system. And this is a common weirdo.


>But some frequent weirdoes are more common than
>some infrequent Currier characters. Absolutely
>true. And this $Fit; is giving me fits. Petersen
>is not 100% consistent. Sometimes the i-stroke
>seems very deliberate. Sometimes it seems that it
>was really only a half-hearted c-stroke.


Still, in many instances it is very clearly i-like.
Now, there are other distressing weirdoes. I remember
having encountered an M (frogguy iiv), all the i-strokes
of which were in fact c-strokes. 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Jul 26 12:17:03 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: TPJ
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:13:13 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199707120353.EAA04434@nerfherder.hermetica.com> from "descarte@hermetica.com" at Jul 11, 97 08:53:49 pm
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Status: OR

Alligator Descartes recently wrote:
> Someone really ought to do some sort of Voynich analysis software for perl
> and write about it. That's the kind of stuff that makes perl an oddly
> eclectic language!

I don't know Perl, but would like to recommend AWK as a language for
coding VM analysis programs. (Maybe Perl is similar.)

A while back I wrote a bunch of programs in C to test various 
ideas about the VM. On average these took 2-3 pages of code, depending on
the task. (They were designed to be "piped" together, so each program was
relatively simple.)

Afterwards, I came across a book on AWK and tried rewriting them in that
language - in many cases the programs were reduced to 5-6 _lines_ of code.

(Since AWK is designed for scanning files, all the logic for opening and
closing files, reading consecutive records, isolating tokens,
and converting between strings and numbers is built-in, not part of your
program.)

For example, here is an AWK program to truncate a file to _n_ records, 
where _n_ is passed as an argument: 

     BEGIN     { k = ARGV[1]; ARGV[1] = "" }
     NR <= k   { print $0 }


Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul 27 01:50:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:49:08 -0500
From: "Eric O'Dell" <eric@gadgetguru.com>
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Bruce Grant wrote:
> 
> Alligator Descartes recently wrote:
> > Someone really ought to do some sort of Voynich analysis software for perl
> > and write about it. That's the kind of stuff that makes perl an oddly
> > eclectic language!
> 
> I don't know Perl, but would like to recommend AWK as a language for
> coding VM analysis programs. (Maybe Perl is similar.)

I like AWK --- my company's web site is auto-generated from a flat file
database on a daily basis by a series of AWK scripts that I wrote.
However, if I had known Perl at the time, I'd have used it instead. If
you already know AWK and C, I'd highly recommend switching to Perl as it
is pretty much a combination of the two, and it is ideal for parsing
text.

The problem with using AWK for VMS analysis is that it is nearly
impossible to work at the level of individual characters. AWK's fixed
program flow seems like a real work-saver when you are performing
relatively simple tasks, but as soon as things get remotely complex, all
the effort you saved initially is more than made up for by the effort of
getting AWK to do things it really wasn't meant to do. Also, the GNU
implementation of AWK --- which is by far the most common version at
large in the world these days --- is, like many GNU programs, a bit
buggy. Perl, by comparison, handles complex tasks easily and it's pretty
well solid as a rock.

I've been working on designing a Windows DLL that provides most of the
functionality of AWK and Perl to C programmers; it'll be going into a
public beta in about six weeks, with an inexpensive (~$60) retail
version to follow, and ports to the various free and commercial Unix
flavors shortly thereafter. Lest this turn into an unabashed plug for my
product, let me add the caveat that I don't know how useful it will be
for work with the VMS, but it'll be worth checking out.

E.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul 27 10:47:02 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Cc: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:30:41 +0100
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        From Denis Mardle       27 July 1997


<One can learn Frogguy or EVA in half an hour.
<I still can't remember what Currier-3, Currier-Y
<Currier-5 Currier-K and a handful of others are.

<Cheers, Rene

Rene.    I, and I hope all on the list, find a print-out
of the table in EVMT rules a vital tool since it gives
Currier, FSG, Frogguy and EVA all side by side.
More tricky is to know what EVA b looks like and
is v the chinese hat, ie ^ or /\ ( f57v seems to have
an intermediate size).  Are you taking up my
suggestion for extra characters ( with addition to
the alphabetic upper or lower case VM fonts ) for
the symbols in positions 10, 13, 14, 16 and 17
of the 17 long sequence on f57v.  Having looked
hard at Petersen, Tiltman and the copy-flo
I have to conclude that the sequence in Currier is
O E 8 R v n F J V/B 10 P R 13 14 9 16 17
with two instances of V and two of B plus 16
having I once and C three times with the horizontal
top extension both of which are found with F,P,V,B
etc in the weirdoes.  I have also come to the conclusion
that the two R's really cannot be a 2 and an R.

Cheers Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Jul 27 23:11:03 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: TPJ
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    > I don't know Perl, but would like to recommend AWK as a language for
    > coding VM analysis programs. (Maybe Perl is similar.)

I second the recommendation, but I would extend it to UNIX in general.

Actually, in UNIX there is not much point in writing "Voynich analysis
software".  At the stage we are now, most tabulation and indexing
tasks can be done by some simple combination of standard UNIX tools -
AWK chiefly, but also egrep, sed, tr, sort, uniq, and so on.

In my experience, the hardest part (relatively speaking) of such tasks
is printing the results in a nice format; and the hardest part of that
is to get the table headers aligned with the data...

For example, here are the commands I used to build the prefix-suffix table:

    /bin/rm -f .title
    /bin/rm -f .table
    /bin/touch .table
    
    set noglob
    set ofmt = "0"
    set npat = 1
    foreach pat ( \
      'AH'    'c'     'oH'    'cg'    \
      'e'     'cccH'  'oe'    'H'     \
      'ccccH' 'oeH'   'r'     'ciH'   \
      'P'     'eH'    'Ae'    'oP'    \
      'ci'    'cH'    'AP'     \
    )
      /n/gnu/bin/printf " %7s" "${pat}" >> .title
      /bin/cat bio-j-huc-gut.wds \
        | /n/gnu/bin/sed -e 's/^/_/g' -e 's/$/_/g' \
        | /n/gnu/bin/egrep "_${pat}[co][^HPA]*_" \
        | /n/gnu/bin/sed -e "s/_${pat}//g" -e '/../s/_$//g' \
        | /n/gnu/bin/sort | uniq -c \
        | /n/gnu/bin/expand \
        > .suff.frq

      /n/gnu/bin/join -a 1 -a 2 -1 1 -2 2 -o"${ofmt},2.1" -e 0 .table .suff.frq > .tmp
      /bin/mv .tmp .table
      @ npat = ${npat} + 1
      set ofmt = "${ofmt},1.${npat}"
    end
    unset noglob
    
    /n/gnu/bin/printf "\n" >> .title
    
    cat .table \
      | /n/gnu/bin/gawk '/./ { s=0; for(i=2;i<=NF;i++) s+=$(i); print s, $0 }' \
      | sort -nr \
      > .tbsort
    
    cat .title .tbsort \
      | format-suffix-table

File bio-j-huc-gut.wds is basically the text, one word per line (in my
peculiar encoding).  The command "format-suffix-table" is an AWK
script that prints the data in tabular form and computes the column
totals.  This approach is grossly inefficient (the entire text is scanned
once for each prefix), but even so the entire table gets built in
a few minutes.  (I don't claim to be a Unix wizard; I haven't even 
graduated to perl yet...)

Unix is far from perfect, of course.  Each tool was written by a
different hacker, and each hacker thinks he is the smartest hacker in 
the world---so each tool has its own idiosyncratic conventions for
wildcards, escape sequences, character ranges, field separators, etc.
And, naturally, the details depend on the vendor, and may change with
time.

Moreover, it is part of the Unix culture that mathematical correctness
and consistency are less important than hacker's "gee-whizardry" and
minimizing the implementor's effort.  So I often found myself writing
several lines of code in order to work around some "clever trick"
(such as the special meaning of "&" in sed) that was meant to save a
few keystrokes in certain not-so-common cases...

In general, C programs are worth writing only for things that require
lots of computation (such as text alignment through dynamic
programming) or for some frequent and well-defined tasks, which are
hard to fit into the sed/awk/grep model.  One example is "revbytes", a
program that reverses the order of bytes in each line of a file
(useful for grouping words with same ending).  I haven't had a chance
to use Jacques Guy's "bitrans", but I suppose it would be another example.

I have put a link in my Voynich page to some of the Unix scripts I
have used in my Voynich hacking.  In the "Notebook" files you will
find plenty of examples of crooked gee-whizzy UNIX incantations.

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 28 03:17:03 1997
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On the discussion about general Unix tools, sed and awk,
Perl and  C, I would like to add that Perl is like the sum
of all advantages and disadvantages of the others combined.
As far as the advantages are concerned, you have a full-blown
programming language not dissimilar to C, which can operate
in a line-by-line fashion like sed and awk, but which is
quite capable of processing on words or on single characters.
When it comes to 'how much you can do in ten lines' it is
miles ahead of the others in the above list.
As for the disadvantages, if some of Stolfi's scripts are
perhaps not completely understandable at first sight (but
I'm sure they work well), it seems impossible to write Perl
scripts that can be made understandable at all. It seems
(IMHO) to have been purposely designed for:

>  hacker's "gee-whizardry" and minimizing the implementor's effort.

This is partly due to my extremely limited experience: not using
it for a few weeks or months is devastating: I will not
understand my earlier scripts anymore. It is clear that the
only implemetor's effort which is really minimised is the
typing effort and I think that this is what Stolfi meant as well.

To summarise: it is *much* more powerful than the general Unix commands and
it is *much* more convenient for handling text consisting of characters,
words
and lines than C. I think the example of reversing bytes in
a word is covered by one of the many Perl built-in functions.
But especially C programmers might have a problem with
the similar-yet-different syntax or the different behaviour of
similar-looking syntax.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 28 04:05:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:02:18 +0200
Subject: The doodles on f1r
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Dear all,

Folio 1 recto has only text, and two large embellished
characters or 'doodles' which are integrated with the
text (the text is indented around them), but which are
not obviously characters of the Voynich script.

I recently saw an illustration in a book about astrology
which featured a circular diagram quite similar to some
Voynich diagrams (e.g. the caption was written in
the centre, circularly). It has the twelve zodiac signs
and Greek text. The zodiac signs look different from
the more usual ones, and, lo and behold, the symbol
for Aries is exactly the same as the first doodle on f1r,
down to the serifs on the 'horns'. Not all symbols are
visible, so I cannot say for sure, but it doesn't seem as
if the second doodle is also one of them.

Now, if as a working hypothesis we assume that this
doodle does indeed represent Aries, the question
has to be asked why it should figure on the first page,
in what is obviously a herbal section. (The other three
pages of the bifolium all have plants).
Is astrology much more the prime subject matter of
the VMs? Is this biographical information about the
author?

The Ms with the Greek text is known as:
Codex Taurinensis C VII 15, and the illustration is on
fol.60v (novae paginationis). It is furthermore
labelled as 'anonymous', and there is an indication
that it has a similar figure on fol. 63v. Finally, the
book says it has not been included into the CCAG
which I am guessing means Corpus Codicorum
Astrologicum Graecorum. It seems to be a relatively
unkown or little-studied Ms. I have no date for it.

To speculate a bit, perhaps the second doodle on f1r
(cup of tea) could be another representation of Aries.
Or perhaps these are just symbols that the VMs
writer fancied, just like the way he designed his
alphabet.... And the Greek connection could mean
something or it could not. After all, I think
'Taurinensis' means 'of Turin', which is again N.Italy.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 28 09:44:04 1997
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Message-Id: <9707281341.AA69959@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
From: Alex Schroeder <alex@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <C12564E2.00257B69.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
	(rzandber@esoc.esa.de)
Subject: Re: TPJ
Status: OR


Before just adding "I agree!" let me add, that there is a Perl port to
DOS based on Version 4.019p36 last time I checked.  

Using Perl is an option, even for DOS-only users.  I don't know which
Version WinPerl runs.  I have worked with AWK, Perl, and C -- and in
all these languages, hackers can save typing and write wizard-style
code (ie. not readable by mere mortals).  So it not strictly a deficit
of the language, but a general problem for programmers: commenting
their code ("Real Programmers don't comment their code: It was hard to
write, it should be hard to read!").

Alex.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Jul 28 11:59:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:52:45 -0500
To: voynich@rand.org
From: "Eric O'Dell" <eric@gadgetguru.com>
Subject: Re: TPJ
In-Reply-To: <9707281341.AA69959@rzurs10.unizh.ch>
References: <C12564E2.00257B69.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

At 03:41 PM 7/28/97 +0200, you wrote:

>Using Perl is an option, even for DOS-only users.  I don't know which
>Version WinPerl runs. 

Perl 5 is available for Win95/NT. I forget who maintains it, but you can
find a pointer to it at www.perl.com. Win95/NT ports of virtually all of
the GNU unix utilities can be had at www.cygnus.com. All of the above are
free of charge, and, in my experience, work quite well.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I have come a very long way from myself only to realize that     |
| identity is a skill and self-betrayal is a habit. Once lost, the  |
| former is very hard to regain; once gained, the latter is very    |
| hard to lose."  ---I. Corvus, _The Europe of Our Dreams_          |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 29 04:50:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C12564E3.002EDF3B.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:05:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Transcription of unusual Voynich characters (weirdoes)
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Denis wrote:


> I , and I hope all on the list, find a print-out
> of the table in EVMT rules a vital tool since it
> gives Currier, FSG, Frogguy and EVA all side by side.

Thank you. Note that a similar table exists at Jim
Reeds' web site. This does not include EVA - we have not
yet suggested to Jim that it should be included. We
should preferably have one single reference table and
not N copies with potential differences.  As for EVA:

> More tricky is to know what EVA b looks like and
> is v the chinese hat, ie ^^ or /\ ( f57v seems to have
> an intermediate size).  Are you taking up my
> suggestion for extra characters ( with addition to
> the alphabetic upper or lower case VM fonts ) for
> the symbols in positions 10, 13, 14, 16 and 17
> of the 17 long sequence on f57v.

EVA b is probably going to be a new character in EVA,
and it will be added to the EVMT pages once this is
decided. When we have a complete weirdoes table,
we do a count of the questionable characters, such
as b, x, v, j, the additional Frogguy extensions
and anything else. We will draw a line, based on the
number of occurrences, what will be a single character
and what not. Some of the characters on f57v are not
likely to 'make it'. The character set will be restricted
to a-z. We still have quite a few free spots.
The boundary line between character and weirdo will
represent a frequency of probably less than 10 occurrences
in the entire Ms.

>  I have also come to the conclusion that the two R's
> really cannot be a 2 and an R.

We may have to be radical and consider replacing 2 and
R by three different EVA characters. I hope not :-/
Note that the vocabulary of the VMs 'as we know it'
would be considerably changed by this.
But that will already happen in e.g. the stars
section, where consistent, major transcription errors
are found.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 29 11:20:20 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: "VM List" <Voynich@rand.org>
Subject: f57v and weirdoes
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:02:51 +0100
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  From  Denis Mardle   29 July 1997

I said re f57v
<<<
  Are you taking up my
suggestion for extra characters ( with addition to
the alphabetic upper or lower case VM fonts ) for
the symbols in positions 10, 13, 14, 16 and 17
of the 17 long sequence on f57v.  Having looked
hard at Petersen, Tiltman and the copy-flo
I have to conclude that the sequence in Currier is
O E 8 R v n F J V/B 10 P R 13 14 9 16 17
with two instances of V and two of B plus 16
having I once and C three times with the horizontal
top extension both of which are found with F,P,V,B
etc in the weirdoes. 
    >>>>
 And Rene said
<<<
 We will draw a line, based on the
number of occurrences, what will be a single character
and what not. Some of the characters on f57v are not
likely to 'make it'. The character set will be restricted
to a-z. We still have quite a few free spots.
The boundary line between character and weirdo will
represent a frequency of probably less than 10 occurrences
in the entire Ms.
       >>>>

 I think it will be unfortunate if the rare symbols on f57v and
f66r are not included as single letters due to their low
frequency since these "key" sequences ( or whatever they
are ) are important in evaluating a proposed decipherment.
 Using upper and lower case should produce about 45
single characters if confusing pairs are eliminated.
 The flamboyant symbol 14 occurs outside f57v  but may
not quite make ten examples - I'll check.  More awkward
is 16, but fortunately both the I and C versions each have
well over 10 occurences.     I would hope that a lower limit
could be used if at all possible.  Having a font table as large
as possible out of the 256 available for single symbols 
would make sense even if a subset has to be used for
some purposes

  Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 29 13:02:18 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:23:48 +0000
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Subject: Re: f57v and weirdoes
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Status: OR

On 29 Jul 97 at 16:02, Denis Mardle wrote:

>  I think it will be unfortunate if the rare symbols on f57v and
> f66r are not included as single letters due to their low
> frequency since these "key" sequences ( or whatever they
> are ) are important in evaluating a proposed decipherment.

That is a reasonable point, but for some of those, I really doubt 
that they will be necessary. The "squashed z" which made it into the 
current release of the eva font, does not appear anywhere else in the 
entire manuscript as far as I recall and it is not part of any word. 
The other candidate is the "chinese hat in a corner" or Frogguy k (or 
shall I say $Fk;)

But if these characters are really necessary, then it will 
possible to temporarily assign a new coding for a special 
analysis run, let's say using numbers instead of the $Wnnn; code or 
whatever free letter is left in the font set. 

>  Using upper and lower case should produce about 45
> single characters if confusing pairs are eliminated.

I am afraid that we have only  a-z and the ' because of the 
"connectivity mode" borrowed from Frogguy. Capitalised fonts are 
"connected" to the previous or next character to produce complex 
characters. So "A-Z a-z , .'-" are all "booked".

> I would hope that a lower limit  could be used if at all possible.
Well we've been discussing this with Rene recently when some ideas 
emerged: to be at least in both "languages" and to have a frequency 
of at least n (but we have not decided how big/small n will be!).
One character that appears only once in a table, is unlikely to 
carry the clue for decryption (I may be very wrong...)

> Having a font table as large
> as possible out of the 256 available for single symbols 
> would make sense even if a subset has to be used for
> some purposes

There are about 200 or so weirdoes, so it may be "just" possible to 
have a complete set in eva (plus non-eva weirdoes) as some of 
the weirdoes can be written natively in the capitalised eva mode. 
But do we really want to have a character set using ALT+000 ? This is 
unreadable, and difficult to port between systems (for example the 
CODE PAGE for different country versions of the PC show all 
different characters beyond 0x127; I haven't got a clue in Unix or 
the Macs).  

What it could be done is to have a programme that reads the $Wnnn;
code and parses the (arbitrary) weirdo font as it is done in VMSVIEW. 
This may not be very elegant, but probably enough for displaying 
v-text correctly. Perhaps apart from the eva font, it will be 
necessary to create an arbitrary weirdo font wth no intentions of 
being "readable" or "pronounceable".

Any further ideas are welcome.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Jul 29 23:35:05 1997
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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:27:52 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: What are the "gallows"
Status: OR


A nomenclature question: what exactly are the "gallows"? Do they
include all the "tall" letters (FSG [H] [P] [D] [F] [HZ] [PZ] [DZ] [FZ])?
Or only those with the "platform" ([HZ] [PZ] [DZ] [FZ])?

--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 30 02:59:03 1997
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Subject: Re: f57v and weirdoes
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I would like to add to the following:

>>  I think it will be unfortunate if the rare symbols on f57v and
>> f66r are not included as single letters due to their low
>> frequency since these "key" sequences ( or whatever they
>> are ) are important in evaluating a proposed decipherment.
>
>That is a reasonable point, but for some of those, I really doubt
>that they will be necessary. The "squashed z" which made it into the
current >release of the eva font, does not appear anywhere else in the
entire >manuscript as far as I recall and it is not part of any word.
>The other candidate is the "chinese hat in a corner" or Frogguy k (or
>shall I say $Fk;)

What's important in my mind is the difference between machine
processing and human reading of the file. With the EVMT almost
all characters are represented by one single ASCII code which
is useful for writing straightforward processing code.
The rest should be easily interpretable. (yph) is easier
for the human, $123; easier for the computer, and some
weirdoes cannot easily be interpreted in a (...) manner.
It shall be easy for everyone to design alphabets that
offer some specilised features, using our transcription
and BITRANS.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Jul 30 13:17:20 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: "VM List" <Voynich@rand.org>
Subject: f57v and weirdoes pt 2
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:25:04 +0100
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>From      Denis Mardle       30 July 1997
 Yesterday I said
    <<<
 The flamboyant symbol 14 occurs outside f57v  but may
not quite make ten examples - I'll check. 
           >>>
I have checked. As well as the five on f57v there are eight
others.   At the first Symbol of the page for f42r ( on a Currier
Z ! ), f42v ( with extra twirls ), f87v,f95v1and f105r. At first of
word for f68r1 ( a star ) and  f101r2 then witjh O in front for the
first star of f68r2.   So this rarity will qualify.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 31 03:08:02 1997
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Subject: f57v and weirdoes pt 2
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Hi!

> I have checked. As well as the five on f57v there are eight
> others.   At the first Symbol of the page for f42r ( on a Currier
> Z ! ), f42v ( with extra twirls ), f87v,f95v1and f105r. At first of
> word for f68r1 ( a star ) and  f101r2 then witjh O in front for the
> first star of f68r2.   So this rarity will qualify.

Whereas this limit of 10 will not be a hard limit, we will take your
suggestion
into account. I'm not sure right now whether all these flamboyant gallows
as we may call them are all the same. There is a weirdo category (family)
reserved for them. If they just have longer loops than normal, they will be
treated as the normal thing. If they have additional curls, additional
crossings
or other embellishments  (dots, curls) they will be counted as a weirdo.
We'll just have to see.
When the table will be finalised, we'll make a point of collecting opinions
about these things from the list. This will be weeks to months still.
In the end we'll have to play Salomon.

Opinions, suggestions and information as always welcome,

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 31 13:14:21 1997
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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:47:24 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Word lumping in biological section
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Hello, 

I have prepared a map showing the approximate distribution of each
word along the the biological section (f75r--f84v):

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-distr-map.html

Enjoy...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 31 09:56:05 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: "VM List" <Voynich@rand.org>
Cc: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Subject: f57v and weirdoes pt2 ( Resent )
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:58:19 +0100
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>From      Denis Mardle       31 July 1997
 Gabriel says the message below did not get to the list
yet Rene got it and replied .  I had no Cc.  It was sent at 1625
on July 30th
  <<<<<
 Yesterday I said
    <<<
 The flamboyant symbol 14 occurs outside f57v  but may
not quite make ten examples - I'll check. 
           >>>
I have checked. As well as the five on f57v there are eight
others.   At the first Symbol of the page for f42r ( on a Currier
Z ! ), f42v ( with extra twirls ), f87v,f95v1and f105r. At first of
word for f68r1 ( a star ) and  f101r2 then witjh O in front for the
first star of f68r2.   So this rarity will qualify.

Denis
             >>>>>

I hope you all get this one

 Denis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Jul 31 19:32:04 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  1 02:59:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:56:34 +0200
Subject: Word lumping in biological section
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Stolfi wrote:

> I have prepared a map showing the approximate distribution of
> each word along the the biological section (f75r--f84v):

A general piece of advice: keep the code to do this sort of thing.
You will want to do it again in the future :-)

Cheers, Rene


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From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  1 05:14:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 06:09:01 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Word lumping in the Biological section
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Status: OR



Yesterday I posted a link to a word distribution map for the
biological section, showing how many times each words occurs in each
block of text (one block = 100 consecutive words).

For that table, I did the splitting into blocks before throwing away
the "bad" words (where Currier and Friedman disagreed).  Later I
realized that more than 20% of the file got discarded (1553 out of
7054 words, leaving 4661).  So the apparent "lumping" of words could
be a consequence of some blocks being much smaller than others.

I now recomputed the tables, throwing away the bad words *before*
splitting the file into blocks --- so that all blocks now have
the same size.  Happily, the lumping is still visible...

For comparison, I appended similar maps for English and Portuguese
texts of the same size.

Again, the URL is 

http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-distr-map.html

Enjoy...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  1 04:29:02 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:26:00 +0000
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Subject: Re: Word lumping in biological section
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <199707311347.KAA00664@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Status: OR

On 31 Jul 97 at 10:47, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> I have prepared a map showing the approximate distribution of each
> word along the the biological section (f75r--f84v):
> 
>   http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-distr-map.html

I cannot realise exactly what do you mean by "frequency by block"?
Do you have an arbitraty block size and "slide" it down the text?

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  1 11:17:04 1997
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:13:40 +0200
Subject: Crater on Venus
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Dear all,

it was already reported years ago, with some amusement,
that a crater on the planet Venus is named Voynich. I
think Jim Reeds has or had a gif of it.
The crater is not named after the Manuscript, nor its
discoverer. It's named after Mrs Voynich, who wrote
the popular novel 'The Gadfly', reportedly quite a good
read. All this I think is known.

Then I 'bumped into' this web page which lists all Venusian
surface feature names, so what do I do: I check if
it's there. And indeed it is, but it lists:

Crater, Voynich, Lilian, English writer, 1864-1960.

What gives? Are we sure that the Gadfly was
written by Wilfrid's wife? Or is this just a mistake....

I realise this has nothing to do with our Manuscript, so
apologies for the off-topic post.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  1 12:20:04 1997
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	id AA11680; Fri, 1 Aug 97 09:16:52 PDT
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 09:16:52 PDT
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <9708011616.AA11680@mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Crater on Venus
Status: OR

Rene says:
> it was already reported years ago, with some amusement,
> that a crater on the planet Venus is named Voynich. I ...
> 
> Then I 'bumped into' this web page which lists all Venusian
> surface feature names, so what do I do: I check if
> it's there. And indeed it is, but it lists:
> 
> Crater, Voynich, Lilian, English writer, 1864-1960.
> 
> What gives? Are we sure that the Gadfly was
> written by Wilfrid's wife? Or is this just a mistake....

These dates are correct, according to Kahn.  The author of "The Gadfly"
is E. L. Voynich, and Kahn identifies her as Wilfred's wife Ethel.  He
says (page 871 of the recent re-issue of The Codebreakers) that she
died in 1960, aged 96.  Looks to me from this like her middle name
could be Lilian.  "The Gadfly" was published in England in 1897, which
may be why she's listed in your table as an English writer; or perhaps
that's her place of birth -- Kahn refers to her as an American, and she
was certainly a resident in the US.  A random Web site refers to a
letter from her to Bertrand Russell dated 1940, and mentions in passing
that she was the daughter of the mathematician George Boole, of Boolean
logic fame.  The Shostakovich FAQ identifies her book as the
inspiration for his opera of the same name; evidently it was considered
one of the great classics in the FSU.

Extra connectivity to ciphers: according to an unnamed source in the
Boole/Russell page, the protagonist of The Gadfly was based on Reilly,
of "Ace of Spies" fame, with whom (it alleges) E. L. Voynich was
acquainted.  The timing is a little tight for this to be true --
Richelson says he was born in 1874 (as Sigmund Georgievich Rosenblum)
and emigrated to England in the 1890s.  If his career as a spy started
before 1900, I haven't seen evidence of it.

	Jim Gillogly
	12.19.4.6.17, 10 Caban 15 Xul, Second Lord of Night

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  1 12:29:02 1997
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	id AA11726; Fri, 1 Aug 97 09:23:59 PDT
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 09:23:59 PDT
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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To: voynich@rand.org, jim@mentat.com
Subject: Re: Crater on Venus
Status: OR

Addendum: the Library of Congress (telnet locis.loc.gov) gives her
full name as Ethel Lillian Voynich (1864-1960) and his as Wilfrid
Michael Voynich (1865-1930).  This differs from the "Lilian" in your
list and the "Wilfred" I quoted from Kahn.  That "Wilfred" did look
suspicious when I typed it a few minutes ago...

Yup, it's her crater all right.

	Jim Gillogly

From reeds Fri Aug  1 17:40:51 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9708011740.ZM28086@research.att.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:40:50 -0400
In-Reply-To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
        "Crater on Venus" (Aug  1, 17:13)
References: <C12564E6.005302F2.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Crater on Venus
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Status: OR

On Aug 1, 17:13, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> Subject: Crater on Venus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> it was already reported years ago, with some amusement,
> that a crater on the planet Venus is named Voynich. I
> think Jim Reeds has or had a gif of it.
> The crater is not named after the Manuscript, nor its
> discoverer. It's named after Mrs Voynich, who wrote
> the popular novel 'The Gadfly', reportedly quite a good
> read. All this I think is known.
> 
> Then I 'bumped into' this web page which lists all Venusian
> surface feature names, so what do I do: I check if
> it's there. And indeed it is, but it lists:
> 
> Crater, Voynich, Lilian, English writer, 1864-1960.
> 
> What gives? Are we sure that the Gadfly was
> written by Wilfrid's wife? Or is this just a mistake....
> 
> I realise this has nothing to do with our Manuscript, so
> apologies for the off-topic post.
> 
> Cheers,  Rene
> 
>-- End of excerpt from rzandber@esoc.esa.de

Completely sure.  Ethel Lillian Voynich, daughter of George Boole (who invented
Boolean algebra), blah blah.  A retired colleague of mine knew her when he was
younger.



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Aug  2 15:05:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 13:41:03 -0500
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: TPJ
Cc: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
In-Reply-To: <199707280305.AAA16012@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
References: <m0ws9T0-001bFdC@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
 <199707120353.EAA04434@nerfherder.hermetica.com>
 <m0ws9T0-001bFdC@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
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At 12:05 AM 7/28/97 -0300, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>In my experience, the hardest part (relatively speaking) of such tasks
>is printing the results in a nice format; and the hardest part of that
>is to get the table headers aligned with the data...

	Most modern spreadsheet programs have a data parse function that lets you
convert an ASCII text file of numbers and text into a spreadsheet.  You can
then adjust the spreadsheet's format, make column or row sums, averages,
standard deviations, etc., and add column and rows headers that align with
the data quite easily.  I've done this with great success for a long time.  

	When I was making many computations with MONKEY, Jacques Guy's entropy
calculation program,  I used the Windows DOS window cut-and-paste to paste
the results into a text editor.  I then had a macro in the text editor line
the data up into columns like I wanted and added the resulting row to an
overall file.  Thus I had many sets of results in a table.  I used a
spreadsheet to parse the resulting text file into a spreadsheet.  I then
used the speadsheet to massage the numbers as I pleased.  It may sound
involved, but it worked quite well.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Aug  3 10:26:02 1997
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From: descarte@hermetica.com
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Subject: Re: TPJ
To: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:05:02 +0100 (BST)
Cc: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br, voynich@rand.org, ixohoxi@micro-net.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970802134103.006aabd8@mailhost.micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at Aug 2, 97 01:41:03 pm
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>In my experience, the hardest part (relatively speaking) of such tasks
>is printing the results in a nice format; and the hardest part of that
>is to get the table headers aligned with the data...

This is an area in which perl excels. The following example shows a short
program that handles the formatting of the contents of /etc/passwd on a 
UNIX machine. I've not listed the code to read the file in, but, 
$name, $login, $office, $uid, $gid and $home are perl variables containing
the values for a given line. The lines marked @<<<<< and so on are the
formatting prototypes.

        # a report on the /etc/passwd file
        format STDOUT_TOP =
                                Passwd File
        Name                Login    Office   Uid   Gid Home
        ------------------------------------------------------------------
        .
        format STDOUT =
        @<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< @||||||| @<<<<<<@>>>> @>>>> @<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
        $name,              $login,  $office,$uid,$gid, $home
        .

A.

-- 
Alligator Descartes       |
descarte@hermetica.com    |   "The reverse side also has a reverse side"
http://www.hermetica.com  |                         -- Zen saying

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug  4 03:05:03 1997
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Subject: Re: Crater on Venus
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     Dear all,

     thanks for all the confirmations :-)

     It was the 'Lilian' (which should apparently be Lillian) which
     had me surprised, but that was not necessary as it seems.

     Cheers.  Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug  4 14:29:04 1997
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From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <199708041825.LAA22726@zendia.mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Crater on Venus
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Status: OR

Continuing off-topic for just another dose:

Rene says (regarding Mrs. Voynich's name on a Venusian (Venerian?) crater):
>      It was the 'Lilian' (which should apparently be Lillian) which
>      had me surprised, but that was not necessary as it seems.

There appears to be less than total agreement about the spelling.  A
retrospective on her life and works appeared in Commonweal in 1961
spelling her middle name "Lilian" and indicating that she was known as
"Lily Boole" to the revolutionary Russian crowd she hung out with in the
1880's.  In later life she was known almost exclusively as "ELV".

There were lots of interesting details in that article about her life
and Wilfred/Wilfrid Voynich's, including the fact that Mr. Voynich spent
a couple of years in a Siberian prison camp before escaping and being
spirited away to London, where he met Miss Boole.

I mentioned earlier a story that Sidney Reilly ("Ace of Spies") was
alleged to have been a model for the title character of her book "The
Gadfly".  Biographer Robin Lockhart gives a fairly detailed description
of an affair between Reilly and the decade-older ELV (who'd been
married some years by that time) in the 1890s; however, later
biographer Edward van der Rhoer says "In later years Sidney Reilly
liked to claim that, as a result of a love affair with Ethel Voynich,
he became the hero ... of her novel ... The Gadfly. ...  Reilly's version
once again appears to be more the product of his romantic imagination
than reality, although it cannot be disproved."

	Jim Gillogly

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug  5 09:38:07 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Crater on Venus
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:32:10 +0100
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  From Denis Mardle    5 August 1997

Jim Gillogy said of Wilfrid Voynich 
<There were lots of interesting details in that article about her life
<and Wilfred/Wilfrid Voynich's, including the fact that Mr. Voynich spent
<a couple of years in a Siberian prison camp before escaping and being
<spirited away to London, where he met Miss Boole.

Was W Voynich born in the Ukraine ? And if so was he a native Ukranian
speaker ?   If so perhaps John Stojko's decipherment is right and was a
piece of Fiction constructed by Mr. and Mrs. Voynich !!?  Perhaps we should
be looking for some hidden Boolean Algebra also.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug  5 10:26:06 1997
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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:21:58 +0200
Subject: Off-topic stuff, please ignore if you don't care (was Re: Crater
	 on Venus)
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Denis wrote:,

> Was W Voynich born in the Ukraine ? And if so was he a native
> Ukranian speaker ?   If so perhaps John Stojko's decipherment is
> right and was a piece of Fiction constructed by Mr. and Mrs. Voynich !!?
> Perhaps we should be looking for some hidden Boolean Algebra also.

I think Wilfrid Voynich was a Russian Jew. I also vaguely remember
that he managed to escape from a camp on two different occasions.
Perhaps Jim G. can confirm/deny.

This led me to my ultimate conspiracy-theory (to which Denis also
seems to be hinting on a smaller scale). Those who don't care
for this sort of thing, do not read on :-)

Voynich died in the prison camp. The man who escaped was a
spy/agent, who was sent to the UK and later the US, to sabotage
the incumbent cryptographic services of the two countries,
by occupying the experts designated to set them up. In the
US this was the apparently innocent expert in
cryptography: Newbold. Voynich succeeded because
this bureau/service only got started near the end of the
decade. A fake letter quoted in the Kent book was a feeble
attempt to explain away Newbold's expertise in cryptography and
mask the success of the Bolshevik plot.

The Voynich Ms was composed by Russian experts. It contains
Russian glossolalia in a 36-character alphabet (!) which looks
like Ukrainian because all Slavionic languages are similar.
Stojko received no support in Russia because they 'knew' the
VMs does not exist, but they couldn't say so.

Miss Nill was a second Russian plant, unkown to Wilfrid, to
keep an eye on him and on what happened with the VMs. When
Newbold hit upon the real truth, he suddenly fell
ill and died within days. Poisoning must be suspected.

Miss Nill became the guardian of the VMs and made sure only
important cryptographers could get access to it (further
distracting them from their real work). Hence Strong's lack
of success getting access. Mrs Voynich became aware of what was
happening and wrote a novel about a Russian agent. The clue
was too thin to be understood. She was henceforth kept out
of circulation by Miss Nill.
When the VMs was sold to Kraus, she came with it.

The NSA has always had a great interest in the VMs because
they have been suspecting most of the above conspiracy. They
also make sure no reputable scientists are allowed to be
interested in the VMs.


How did it all start? The Ms was supposedly found in the
Jesuit college of Villa Mondragone, when its library was
transferred to the Vatican upon the death of the General
of the order. He died in 1896 (give or take a few years).
The VMs was supposedly found in 1912! Furthermore, Voynich
supposedly managed to convince a few key people that some
books should not be transferred to the Vatican, but
sold to him instead. Obviously, it would be impossible for
him to obtain more books in the same manner much later,
as they would by then be in the Vatican. Yet he used this
excuse to keep the location where he found it a secret
for many years. I have not found out how many, but this
could be as much as ten years (corrections welcome), as
articles written in the early 20's never mention the
Mondragone. The secret of the location was needed to
make sure none of the planted false trails (catalogue
entries such as found by Ruysschaert) could be checked.

I'm sure it's all false, but there is a lot of circumstantial
evidence here...

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug  5 09:41:04 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:35:55 +0000
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Subject: Re: Crater on Venus
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On  5 Aug 97 at 14:32, Denis Mardle wrote:

>   From Denis Mardle    5 August 1997
> Was W Voynich born in the Ukraine ? And if so was he a native Ukranian
> speaker ?   If so perhaps John Stojko's decipherment is right and was a
> piece of Fiction constructed by Mr. and Mrs. Voynich !!?  Perhaps we should
> be looking for some hidden Boolean Algebra also.

:-)
According to one Who's Who I found in the local library, he was 
Polish, nationalised British and then went to the USA. I do not know 
whether he also had US nationality.

Cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 00:14:03 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@paw.montana.com>
To: "'rzandber@esoc.esa.de'" <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>,
        "voynich@rand.org"
	 <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: Off-topic stuff, please ignore if you don't care (was Re: Crater	 on Venus)
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----------
From: 	rzandber@esoc.esa.de[SMTP:rzandber@esoc.esa.de]
Sent: 	Tuesday, August 05, 1997 8:21
To: 	voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	Off-topic stuff, please ignore if you don't care (was Re: Crater	 on Venus)





Denis wrote:,

> Was W Voynich born in the Ukraine ? And if so was he a native
> Ukranian speaker ?   If so perhaps John Stojko's decipherment is
> right and was a piece of Fiction constructed by Mr. and Mrs. Voynich !!?
> Perhaps we should be looking for some hidden Boolean Algebra also.

I think Wilfrid Voynich was a Russian Jew. I also vaguely remember
that he managed to escape from a camp on two different occasions.
Perhaps Jim G. can confirm/deny.

This led me to my ultimate conspiracy-theory (to which Denis also
seems to be hinting on a smaller scale). Those who don't care
for this sort of thing, do not read on :-)

Voynich died in the prison camp. The man who escaped was a
spy/agent, who was sent to the UK and later the US, to sabotage
the incumbent cryptographic services of the two countries,
by occupying the experts designated to set them up. In the
US this was the apparently innocent expert in
cryptography: Newbold. Voynich succeeded because
this bureau/service only got started near the end of the
decade. A fake letter quoted in the Kent book was a feeble
attempt to explain away Newbold's expertise in cryptography and
mask the success of the Bolshevik plot.

The Voynich Ms was composed by Russian experts. It contains
Russian glossolalia in a 36-character alphabet (!) which looks
like Ukrainian because all Slavionic languages are similar.
Stojko received no support in Russia because they 'knew' the
VMs does not exist, but they couldn't say so.

Miss Nill was a second Russian plant, unkown to Wilfrid, to
keep an eye on him and on what happened with the VMs. When
Newbold hit upon the real truth, he suddenly fell
ill and died within days. Poisoning must be suspected.

Miss Nill became the guardian of the VMs and made sure only
important cryptographers could get access to it (further
distracting them from their real work). Hence Strong's lack
of success getting access. Mrs Voynich became aware of what was
happening and wrote a novel about a Russian agent. The clue
was too thin to be understood. She was henceforth kept out
of circulation by Miss Nill.
When the VMs was sold to Kraus, she came with it.

The NSA has always had a great interest in the VMs because
they have been suspecting most of the above conspiracy. They
also make sure no reputable scientists are allowed to be
interested in the VMs.


How did it all start? The Ms was supposedly found in the
Jesuit college of Villa Mondragone, when its library was
transferred to the Vatican upon the death of the General
of the order. He died in 1896 (give or take a few years).
The VMs was supposedly found in 1912! Furthermore, Voynich
supposedly managed to convince a few key people that some
books should not be transferred to the Vatican, but
sold to him instead. Obviously, it would be impossible for
him to obtain more books in the same manner much later,
as they would by then be in the Vatican. Yet he used this
excuse to keep the location where he found it a secret
for many years. I have not found out how many, but this
could be as much as ten years (corrections welcome), as
articles written in the early 20's never mention the
Mondragone. The secret of the location was needed to
make sure none of the planted false trails (catalogue
entries such as found by Ruysschaert) could be checked.

I'm sure it's all false, but there is a lot of circumstantial
evidence here...

Cheers,  Rene

absolutely brilliant!  by George, I think he's got it!

Don



From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 03:26:04 1997
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Don wrote:

> by George, I think he's got it!

without a smiley :-).

I think not everybody may agree and I trust that
this 'silly theory' is not stopping anyone
from treating the VMs as a genuine ME Ms, just
waiting to be deciphered.

Cheers. Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 10:35:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:16:34 -0500
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: RE: Off-topic stuff
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At 09:21 AM 8/6/97 +0200, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>
>Don wrote:
>
>> by George, I think he's got it!
>
>without a smiley :-).
>
>I think not everybody may agree and I trust that
>this 'silly theory' is not stopping anyone
>from treating the VMs as a genuine ME Ms, just
>waiting to be deciphered.

	Hm... I always thought it was the Catholic Church that was conspiring to
keep the contents of the VMs secret.  For reasons that our research has not
yet uncovered, the Church finds the contents of the VMs threatening.

	Athanasius Kircher was on the point of deciphering the VMs.  On
discovering this, the local Jesuit authority framed heresy charges against
him.  Kircher was offered a choice:  face lengthy torture, speedy trial,
and execution at the stake - or join the Jesuits and give them all his
worldly possessions, including the VMs.  Thus it came safely under their
control.

	After three centuries, the Church had grown inattentive, and Wilfrid
Voynich was able to purchase the VMs.  However, by the time Newbold started
examining the VMs, they regained the initiative.  An agent administered a
slow poison to Newbold, deranging this originally brillant man and
ultimately killing him.  

	Friedmann was too well connected in intelligence circles for this
treatment.  However, high-ranking Catholics at the OSS and CIA were able to
see to it that Friedmann never had sufficient resources to decipher the VMs.  

	The Church's greatest coup came when Catholics at Yale instigated the
purchase of the VMs.  Once again, they could limit access to it so that it
would never be deciphered.

	However, people come and go.  It will be most interesting to see whether
the VMs is ever placed on Yale's Digital Library.

;-)
Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 11:32:05 1997
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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: RE: Off-topic stuff
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On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dennis wrote:

> 	Hm... I always thought it was the Catholic Church that was conspiring to
> keep the contents of the VMs secret.  For reasons that our research has not
> yet uncovered, the Church finds the contents of the VMs threatening.

. . . 

> 	The Church's greatest coup came when Catholics at Yale instigated the
> purchase of the VMs.  Once again, they could limit access to it so that it
> would never be deciphered.


Actually, the Yale connectioon gives away the real secret.  Skull &
Bones is behind it all.  (Don't you all leave the room now ...)

> 

R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 17:41:19 1997
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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:32:25 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: RE: Off-topic stuff
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    > [Denis:] Hm... I always thought it was the Catholic Church that
    > was conspiring to keep the contents of the VMs secret.  For
    > reasons that our research has not yet uncovered, the Church
    > finds the contents of the VMs threatening.

Aha! And don't forget that the only version of the VMs that can be
distributed in digital form was made by a *priest*!

I always thought it funny that someone would invest so many years
copying a manuscript by hand, given that he could have easily acquired
Yale's photocopies at the Church's expense.

Obviously, his task was to frustrate the would-be VMs crackers by
feeding them a doctored version, chock full of "transcription errors"
and lacking all the the little dots and serifs that carry the *real*
information...

--stolfi 

(Do I need to add a smiley? 8-)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 18:05:19 1997
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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 16:47:10 -0500
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: RE: Off-topic stuff
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At 06:32 PM 8/6/97 -0300, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
>
>Aha! And don't forget that the only version of the VMs that can be
>distributed in digital form was made by a *priest*!
>
>I always thought it funny that someone would invest so many years
>copying a manuscript by hand, given that he could have easily acquired
>Yale's photocopies at the Church's expense.
>
>Obviously, his task was to frustrate the would-be VMs crackers by
>feeding them a doctored version, chock full of "transcription errors"
>and lacking all the the little dots and serifs that carry the *real*
>information...

	Actually, no.  Petersen was their mistake.  He wasn't "in the loop" on the
VMs.  He did his copy out of personal interest.  After some hesitation, the
Jesuits decided to leave him alone.  They thought he was an incompetent,
unhinged crank who could never decipher the VMs or even make a decent copy.
 They even thought he would provided useful cover for their nefarious deeds.

	Little did they realize their mistake!  Petersen's transcription was
competent, and now the mighty Third Study Group will use it to reveal their
dreaded secret!  The Third Study Group is too dispersed for them to
eliminate us all!  They would tremble, if they only knew!

;-)
Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 18:23:05 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 20:47:03 1997
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unsubscribe

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 20:44:02 1997
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That was then.  But in these modern times, the Secret Chiefs
have learned that one can ensure compliance with their dark
designs as well by persuasion as by threat.

For example, a former member of Team Voynich has a well-known
liking for scrawny young asian women.  The offer of a sinecure post
at a certain university, along with unrestricted access to its, um,
resources, was quite enough to buy his silence.

--------



 Little did they realize their mistake!  Petersen's transcription was
competent, and now the mighty Third Study Group will use it to reveal their
dreaded secret!  The Third Study Group is too dispersed for them to
eliminate us all!  They would tremble, if they only knew!

;-)
Dennis






From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug  6 21:50:03 1997
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James P, you're unsubscribed.

If anybody else wants off, please email me directly rather than sending
your request to the whole list.  This is considered normal etiquette
for all mailing lists.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug  7 03:08:03 1997
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Hi

 > Petersen was their mistake.  He wasn't "in the loop" on the VMs.  He
 > did his copy out of personal interest.  After some hesitation, the
 > Jesuits decided to leave him alone.  They thought he was an incompetent,
 > unhinged crank who could never decipher the VMs or even make a decent
 >  copy.

 ...

 So, why are they leaving _us_ alone for the time being? :-)

 >  The Third Study Group is too dispersed for them to eliminate us all!
 >  They would tremble, if they only knew!

Any more sinecure posts left in .sg ?

Beware: a topical post will follow soon. A pity it won't attract nearly
the same amount of attention-(

Cheers, Rene


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Subject: More about some diagrams I found
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Dear all,

a few weeks ago I mentioned finding two circular diagrams from
two different Mss. which, once way or another, show some
similarities with some VMs drawings. Dennis wanted to put them
at his Web site for a short while so that people may have a
quick look or copy them over. For obvious reasons they should
not stay there. I'm sure Dennis will let you know once they're
available.

The quality isn't too great but some things can be made out,
for example the similarity of the symbol for Aries (Greek Kruos
or Krios) with the first doodle on f1r.
One circle looks a bit like f57v (it may even have one word
written outside it, but it could also just be a blemish or
a tear in the page) and I'd like to use this occasion
to voice my little theory about it, which some of you may have
heard before.
The four times repeating sequence could represent the
numbers 5 to 85, in steps of 5. Thus, this drawing might be
a copy of a drawing of some instrument, where the main
compass directions were indicated my some marker, and
the intermediate intervals subdivided as indicated above.
I have seen an (Arabic) astrolable that had the numbers
5 to 360 in steps of 5 written along the perimeter. The
word dairal (EVA) or 8ATAE (Currier) could mean North
or East. The first symbol of the sequence, 'o', is promising
as this is how the Arabic 5 is written, both in the numerical
and alphabetical systems. Of course, nothing else matches.

And of course, it could all mean something completely
different.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug  7 14:44:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:33:17 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> a few weeks ago I mentioned finding two circular diagrams from
> two different Mss. which, once way or another, show some
> similarities with some VMs drawings. Dennis wanted to put them
> at his Web site for a short while so that people may have a
> quick look or copy them over. For obvious reasons they should
> not stay there. I'm sure Dennis will let you know once they're
> available.

	You can find the two drawings at 

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/astro1.gif

and

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/astro2.gif

	I'll keep them there for a couple of weeks.  I don't recall Rene's
ref's on the drawings.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug  7 22:29:03 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:34:21 +0800
Subject: Re: More about some diagrams I found
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Thanks for posting the diagrams.

Astro1: This seems to be a zodiac.  The twelve signs run
counter-clockwise around the outside, and above each
sign is written what I presume to be its greek name,
though most of them are unreadable.  But #12 looks
a bit like "ikhthis" if you squint.

In the next inner box is some text I can't read at all,
except that at the bottom of each box is written the
name of one of the four elements (ge:, hudo:r, pur, aar)
with the traditional assignment of element to sign.

So, an annotated greek zodiac of some kind.

Astro2: yuk, even less readable.  But the inner ring
is again the zodiac, clockwise, in latin. In the next ring
I spotted sol (in aries) and luna (on the cusp between
leo and virgo), and just maybe we have mercurius
in cancer.

That looks very, very like somebody's horoscope, in
which case there ought to be some numbers somewhere
that give the details.  Well, the outer ring is fer sure arabic
numbers in a fairly old style, though I can't quite see how
they relate to the inner rings.  But the second ring is
simply the latin alphabet.  There are six letters in
quadrants 1 and 2,and five in quadrant 4, so my conjecture
is that this is an alphabet of 23 letters, with J, V and W
omitted.  Recall that the Voynich foliation also uses an
alphabet that writes U always - but that was very common
in the middle ages.  Also note that the artist drew the
alphabet freehand - in quadrant 1 he seems to have
strated to write G and then remembered it was time to
move on to the next quadrant.

The stuff in the middle I can't read at all.

Oh yes, one other detail.  The circles and lines were clearly
done with straight-edge and compass, but the lines are not
exactly perpendicular.  So the artist didn't have a set square,
and has either forgotten or neglected to use the Euclidean
construction of the perpendicular. [Elements, Bk I Prop 11]

Hope that helps.  And - notice yet again how bad the
calligraphy is compared to the VMs, and how the
reader can, even so, recognise many words at sight.

Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug  7 22:38:04 1997
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Hello again

OK, a bit of fiddling with the photocopier
and I can read the supposed horoscope
in astro2.  The planets are placed in the
third ring thus:

     sol	 aries
     venus	    gemini
     mercurius      cancer
     luna	     leo/virgo
     saturnus	libra
     juppiter	 scorpio/sagittarius
     Mars	     capricornus/aquarius

(nice big elaborate M there).

At which point, the numbers don't matter,
because the above configuration is
astronomically impossible.  Sigh.

Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  8 05:02:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:14:19 +0200
Subject: Re: More about some diagrams I found
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Dear all,

Robert Firth commented on the gifs. I can provide
some more information from the book. I'll use the
following Greek transcription alphabet:
a,b,g,d,e,z,y,th,i,k,l,m,n,x,o,p,r,s(both),t,u,ph,ch,ps,oo
(probably not the best but easy to read). I'll ignore
all the diacritics and spiritus.

> Astro1: This seems to be a zodiac.  The twelve signs run
> counter-clockwise around the outside, and above each
> sign is written what I presume to be its greek name,
> though most of them are unreadable.  But #12 looks
> a bit like "ikhthis" if you squint.

Yes. The writer of the book made a point that this is
one of several competing ways to order them. Aries is
at the top (9 o'clock being another common point).

The signs are krios, tauros, didumoi, karkinos, a few
I can't read right now, aigokeros, udrochos, ichtues.
The book has the whole transcription of all text.

Together with the sign name is a short description of
the property or quality of the sign, e.g. near Aries
it has 'agathos' and 'tropikou' (the meaning of which
just slipped my mind :-) ).
> In the next inner box is some text I can't read at all,
> except that at the bottom of each box is written the
> name of one of the four elements (ge:, hudo:r, pur, aar)
> with the traditional assignment of element to sign.

The text gives the attributes of a person born under the
sign.The four elements: gys, ayr, udoor, pur are repeated
three times in this order.

> So, an annotated greek zodiac of some kind.

The figure caption is written inside the inner circle.
I can provide the transcription if anyone is interested.

> Astro2: yuk, even less readable.  But the inner ring
> is again the zodiac, clockwise, in latin. In the next ring
> I spotted sol (in aries) and luna (on the cusp between
> leo and virgo), and just maybe we have mercurius
> in cancer.

I'm not so sure the planets are intended to 'belong' in any
particular sign. It looks as if they're simply listed.
The ordering is almost right but not quite. Clockwise:
sol, Venus, Mercurius, Luna, Saturnus, Jup(p?)iter, Mars
(with a weird M).

> Well, the outer ring is fer sure arabic
> numbers in a fairly old style, though I can't quite see how
> they relate to the inner rings.

Plus the meaning of the numbers is a mystery to me. It starts
of 1, 2, ?, 4, 5, but then we get 24, and after that:
10(?), 12, 2, 16, 2, 12, 12, ?, 2 ....
Any ideas anyone?

> The stuff in the middle I can't read at all.
Occasional words can be made out: frigi(dus), humid(us),
signa, pisces.

This page is a.k.a. Clm 2574b, fol.72v.

(clm = Latin codex in Munich)

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  8 05:02:04 1997
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Subject: Homework for the weekend
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Dear all,

I can't prove it :-)
but I have a reason to believe that the following seven words
are the names of the seven planets in Voynichese (EVA/ Frogguy)

okal           olpax
dolchsody      8oxctso89
yfain          9ljaiv
ytoaiin        9qpoaiiv
ofar,oeoldain  olja2 ocox8aiv
opcholdy       oqjctox89
okain.am       olpaiv aig

Anybody capable of explaining which is which and how
these V-words are to be translated into known names
for the planets gets to share the fame with me :-)
(just kidding).

Anyway, the shorter, more common words for Sun and
Moon are a reasonable assumption - at a hunch okal
for Sun and yfain for Moon. A curious
coincidence (?) is that the Italian planet names can
end in three different letters, e (4x), o (2x) and a(1x),
which matches the initial letters of the above Voynich
names.... I'm sure this is spurious as the Luna = dolchsody
match makes no sense.

I picked up the Voynich words from the diagram that
looks just like the astro1.gif Dennis posted for me
(one of the f67 recto pages).

Happy hunting, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  8 04:35:02 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 04:25:15 EDT
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:25:33 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Font Problems
To: Gabriel Landini <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Status: OR

 Dear Gabriel,

For the longest time I could not get your fonts to load into Windows95.  I
kept getting a misleading message that the fonts may be corrupted, so I
never tried alternative methods.  I called up the fonts in Fontographer and
they all seemed fine.  I redid rotation, renamed them internally, you name
it, I did it.  Nothing seemed to work.  I had not read any complaints from
anyone else, so I assumed it had something to do with my rather
right-brained system configuration.

The other day I was cleaning up my font directory and deleted several fonts
that I do not use,  and while on the subject I visited your board to
download the Frogguy font and give it a try.  All of the sudden your fonts
loaded perfectly!

It seems that the maximum number of fonts I can load into Windows95 is 1,080
fonts at any given time.  I wonder why this is when I can store many more
files than this in a single directory using the 32 bit  FAT directory
structure, but I tested this premise and it seems to be a bonafide limit to
the Windows 95 program.  I run 128mb of onboard memory and a disk cache
memory of 6 gigabytes, so lack of computer memory is not the likely culprit
here.  This may be a rare complaint from font users, but at least now you
are aware that the problem exists, just in case the question ever arises.

Your fonts now print beautifully - quite nice work on your part, my friend.

After the question of whether I had tried Bitrans I have been practicing
with it - although the results are mixed as far as my use of the
transcriptions are concerned.  I will get back to you soon with some
questions on this matter.

I take it your revised transcription format is not on your board yet?  After
the discussions I read I wanted to view your work and see what you had done.
I can wait.

I still haven't located the machine copy of the page you requested, but I
will eventually.  May I ask what drives your curiosity?

I have given a lot of thought to the "S" book you think it might be related
to, and although the uses for such a book may be boundless, it is most
probably a "one time pad" for encryption, based on a seed that originally
fed the algorithm.  It would be interesting to reverse engineer and see if a
"seed" was indeed used.  This could say much about its origin.  The "angel"
names applied to Trithemian systems can be reverse engineered into the
hebraic cabalistic table from which they are drawn, revealing the source of
his system and much about his methodology, which includes his extraction
algorithm.  Where the "S" book is concerned I am aware that there are more
active interested parties that might pick up on this suggestion and run with
it, which is why I make the suggestion.  If not, when I find the time I will
investigate this matter myself.

Many thanks for the fonts, and a strong applaud for the work you and Rene
are accomplishing.  A true scientific approach to the problem at any level
is a mark of greatness and clear thinking.  I expect that you will do many
more great things in the future.


Regards,   Rayman


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  8 10:32:04 1997
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To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: More about some diagrams I found 
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 08 Aug 1997 09:14:19 +0200.
             <C12564ED.00256AC8.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> 
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 15:27:48 +0100
From: Michael Roe <mr101@ccsr.cam.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <E0wwq16-00001F-00@godzilla.ccsr.cam.ac.uk>
Status: OR

> Plus the meaning of the numbers is a mystery to me. It starts
> of 1, 2, ?, 4, 5, but then we get 24, and after that:
> 10(?), 12, 2, 16, 2, 12, 12, ?, 2 ....
> Any ideas anyone?

How about this:

Letter Ring    Number Ring                 Explanation
a              1
b              2
c              3
d              4
e              5
f              24                          6 = 2+4
g              ?
h              i2                          Roman IIX, two before 10
i              i                           letter 'i' drawn like numeral '1'
                                           pun on Roman IX, 1 before 10
k              10                          10th letter of the alphabet
l              2                           ("11" = 2 "1"s ?)
m              12                          12th letter of the alphabet
n              12
o              o                           letter 'o' drawn like numeral '0'
p              2
q              ?
r              ?
?              ?
v
w              2
x              20
y
z              ?

Mike

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug  8 16:26:04 1997
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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 15:20:37 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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"Voynich Manuscript Translation
                    Committee Publishes Third Interim
                    Report"


'The Voynich Dept.
                    "The Most Mysterious Manuscript in
                    the World" 

                    Translation of the Voynich Manuscript (MS 408,
                    "The Voynich 'Roger Bacon' Cipher MS" in the
                    Beinecke Rare Book Library at Yale University.)
                    is now well underway.'

Found at
The Albania for King Zog Committee
http://www.zog.org/

???
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Aug  9 00:32:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:29:07 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199708090429.AAA28636@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <C12564ED.0027CABB.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
	(rzandber@esoc.esa.de)
Subject: Re: Homework for the weekend
Status: OR


If we're looking for cribs in the text, consider what appears to be
a "T-O" map on F68V3, based on which (Currier) OPO8OE = Africa (in
the underlying language), and OBICOE86 = Europe (for some reason my
notes here don't have the Currier for Asia). Not that I thing such
cribs will get us anywhere, as they've been available for decades...
(although I still intend some day to get around to looking at the
labels in the Pharaceutical section and how their statistics/structure
compares to "languages" A & B).

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Aug  9 01:50:03 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Word pair frequency table for the Biological section
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Hello,

I have computed a word-pair frequency table for the Biological section.
As usual, there are plenty of interesting patterns, but no definite 
answers yet.

If you are interested, check

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-pair-table.html

Enjoy,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Aug  9 06:02:03 1997
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Karl Kluge wrote:

> If we're looking for cribs in the text, consider what appears to be
> a "T-O" map on F68V3, based on which (Currier) OPO8OE = Africa (in
> the underlying language), and OBICOE86 = Europe (for some reason my
> notes here don't have the Currier for Asia).

I think there are two or three such maps with different V-text
inside... As usual many explanations can be offered for this.

> Not that I think such cribs will get us anywhere, as they've been
> available for decades...

Perhaps not, but we have some counterexamples. Most of the previously
unread languages were solved by having the right cribs. And most
of these had been available for millennia. Then again these examples
are no good, since the people who solved these puzzles were obviously
specialised, gifted linguists whose intelligence was/is likely to have
exceeded mine by a fair margin :-) The same will be true for many of
those who failed so far with the VMs.

Unfortunately (!!!) we have hardly any information on what has been
attempted by whom in the past. Particularly about the astronomical
and astrological areas there is complete silence (except from Brumbaugh,
but his zodiac label solutions simply *have* to be wrong).

Stolfi also looked at the words in the Bio section:

   > "olpax" occurs 97 times
   > "olja2" occurs twice

> out of ~7000 words.

These words are indeed common throughout the VMs. Now,
the sun and moon could be mentioned there (or perhaps all
the nymphs are Venus :-)), but another possibility is worth
mentioning too. If the V words represent parts of words (syllables)
then 'okal' (olpax) does not only have to be 'moon', especially
if vowels were not written, or partly written, or replaced by
vowel placeholders (e.g. o/a/9 = any vowel).
So (using English as an arbitrary example), okal could be 'sn'
or 'mn'.

Again, this is just one of many possibilities.
And again, how do we know if anyone has tried this out
in the past?

Further to Stofi's remarks: there could (will) be transcription
errors in the words I posted. This is also true for the Bio text
you looked at. Comparisons should probably be made based on
similar letters (considering a and o the same), but perhaps
you did.....

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Aug  9 12:23:02 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject:  "Sun" and "Moon" in labels? (was: Homework for the weekend)
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    > [Rene:] Most of the previously unread languages were solved by
    > having the right cribs. And most of these had been available for
    > millennia. Then again these examples are no good, since the
    > people who solved these puzzles were obviously specialised,
    > gifted linguists whose intelligence was/is likely to have
    > exceeded mine by a fair margin :-) The same will be true for
    > many of those who failed so far with the VMs.

That is true... but hopefully luck and perseverance do play a part, too.
Moreover, the text-handling tools available in today's average PC are
much better than the punched cards of Friedman's day. 
I have read that the Etruscan language is now being "cracked", slowly
but steadily, by methods that depend more on hard work and contextual
"cribs" than on genial ideas or spacialized linguistic knowledge. 
(After all, Etruscan seems unrelated to any known language).

And, most importantly, we will soon have a much better eletronic
transcription of the VMs, thanks to you-know-who.  Cracking an unknown
language is already hard enough; now imagine doing that from a text
that has one transcription error every five words...

I believe that a necessary precondition to cracking the VMs is the
identification of the manuscript's language.  An unknown natural
language is the hardest cryptosystem there is (because it has minimal
redundancy, and the "key" (dictionary + grammar) is a couple thousand
pages long.  Knowing the lingustic family is not enough; even for
closely related languages, such as Portuguese and Spanish, or Venetian
and Italian, the statistics are so different that we cannot expect to
identify words or letters through them alone.  The prospects are even
worse if the text uses abbreviations for frequent endings, as was common
scribal practice in those times. 

In fact, I don't think we can identify the language through statistics.
At most, we may be able to distinguish Romance from Germanic, but
I wouldn't bet on it.  The labels may be the key that will get us started...

Why did the VMs author use an original alphabet?  Secrecy and
mystification are obvious guesses, but another possibility is that the
language he chose was a dialect without a well-established spelling
system, or had borrowed an alphabet that he tought was inadequate; and
so he decided to invent a "better" one. (It seems this is a very
common "disease" of amateur linguists, in all cultures.  My teenage son
just did that for Portuguese...)

If we can identify the language, then deciphering the VMs should be
relatively easy, since it seems from the statistics that the VMs
'words" are indeed words of the language.  I say "relatively" easy,
because we will have to learn the language first! (Can you read
Albanian? Or 15th century Provenal?)  

On the other hand, if the language is an invented one, then I'd rather
spend my time on Etruscan...

    > These words are indeed common throughout the VMs. Now,
    > the sun and moon could be mentioned there 
    
Yes, I think it is highly significant that precisly those two "planets"
are mentioned in Bio, with the right relative frequency, and not
any of the others.  

However, the words could also be names of elements:  "olpax" would
then be "water" (obviously!), and "olja2" could be "fire", "air", or
"earth". (But where are the other two?)

    > If the V words represent parts of words (syllables)
    > then 'okal' (olpax) does not only have to be 'moon', especially
    > if vowels were not written, or partly written, or replaced by
    > vowel placeholders (e.g. o/a/9 = any vowel).
    > So (using English as an arbitrary example), okal could be 'sn'
    > or 'mn'.

I haven't seen any evidence that the VMs code could be so contrived.
So, I think I will keep looking for the key under the lamppost. 8-)
Until proof to the contrary, I'll assume that the VMs "words" are
basically whole words.

    > Further to Stofi's remarks: there could (will) be transcription
    > errors in the words I posted. This is also true for the Bio text
    > you looked at. Comparisons should probably be made based on
    > similar letters (considering a and o the same), but perhaps
    > you did.....

Not really.  I did assume a few identities, like "a" = "9" = "ci",
"et" = "cc", "qp" = "lp" = "QP" = "LP", and so on.  But "a" and "o"
seem to be different letters, and most of the time they can be
distinguished quite clearly, so I dod not collapse them.

Actually I looked only at the words that were read the same by Currier
and Friedman (modulo the above identites), which is 80% of the total.
So it is possible that the missing words do occur a couple of times in
Bio; or more often but in a different form.
    
--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Aug 10 22:11:02 1997
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Folks

Yep, I think the puzzle of the planets is solved.
They are simply the old (Ptolemaic) seven
planets exactly in order, counter clockwise
from luna, through mercury, venus, sol, mars,
jupiter, and saturn.  I guess that sol was matched
with aries, and the other six simply spread
around it, the lower planets on the right and the
higher on the left.

So, not a horoscope at all, just another of those
"lines, circles, scenes, squares" so familiar
from the VMs itself.

As to whether "olpax" means "sol", or "helios",
or "shamash", or "ash-shams", or whatever,
I'll reserve judgement for now.

TTFN
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 04:14:03 1997
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Subject: Re: "Sun" and "Moon" in labels?
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Dear all,

> I believe that a necessary precondition to cracking the VMs
> is the identification of the manuscript's language.

It would help immensely, but so far there's nothing here,
apart from some common-sense assumptions. I think we're out of
luck.
Our best chance: loan words from Latin or Greek (or Arabic
or Hebrew...) for individual astronomical items or plants.

> The prospects are even worse if the text uses abbreviations
> for frequent endings, as was common scribal practice in those
> times.

I think we have to assume it's the case....

> Why did the VMs author use an original alphabet?  Secrecy and
> mystification are obvious guesses, but another possibility is
> that the language he chose was a dialect without a
> well-established spelling system, or had borrowed an alphabet
> that he tought was inadequate; and so he decided to invent a
> "better" one.

Spoken languages without a writing system still exist today
(no big surprise) even in advanced countries like Italy
(which was definitely a surprise to me). And in the 15th C
people from Europe had been travelling the world for a long
time and the good old Marco Polo scenario cannot be
excluded. Where the VMs was most likely written by a N.Italian
(or another European who'd been there for a long time)
he may have had to invent a writing system for the most
un-european language imaginable. Not an unreasonable scenario.
Still, the secrecy/mystification explanation has my vote as
more likely, since it is a 'simpler' scenario.

>> These words are indeed common throughout the VMs. Now,
>> the sun and moon could be mentioned there

>Yes, I think it is highly significant that precisly those two "planets"
>are mentioned in Bio, with the right relative frequency, and not
>any of the others.

>However, the words could also be names of elements:  "olpax" would
>then be "water" (obviously!), and "olja2" could be "fire", >"air", or
"earth". (But where are the other two?)

Well, in f67r2, definitely 7 items stand out in a 12-segment
drawing with little moon faces.
But more things come in seven, and they cannot be ignored:
metals, virtues, vices. The week days are closely
related to the planets in most languages but not all.

> I haven't seen any evidence that the VMs code could be
> so contrived. So, I think I will keep looking for the
> key under the lamppost. 8-)
> Until proof to the contrary, I'll assume that the VMs
> "words" are basically whole words.

Agreed, there are only 'indications' to the contrary.

> But "a" and "o" seem to be different letters, and most
> of the time they can be distinguished quite clearly, so
> I did not collapse them.

I can't resist replying :-)
Both seem to be made in the obvious manner: first draw a
c and then close it off. The o by writing another curved
stroke and the a by writing a straight line. But the exact
shape of that second half depends a lot on:
- the amount of attention (or hurry) by the scribe
- how close the c already was to a full circle
- perhaps even the start of the next letter

Especially when the writing is small, there are many
cases where it is very hard to tell....

And this could be a very relevant issue:
when sometimes writing is careless, and letters
cannot be easily distinguished, one of the following
should be true (as always asumming that the VMs is a
meaningful Ms with meaningful text):

- It doesn't matter too much which letter it should be
  (e.g. they represent similar sounds, or equally valid
  spellings of the same)
- It is easy to figure out what it should be, from the
  context. This assumes that it's readable (see the recent
  comment by R.Firth on this Latin astrological drawing).
- perhaps I missed something...

What is excluded, I think, is a complicated cipher where
you cannot continue with character n+1 if you haven't
got character n right, or even know whether character
n was one, two or even three characters.
What is a fair assumption, I furthermore think, is that
similar-looking characters have a similar function.
There is no evidence to the contrary of that as far as I know.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 09:59:07 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Latin zodiac astro2
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:00:32 +0100
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 From Denis Mardle          11 August 1997
Robert Firth said

<Folks

<Yep, I think the puzzle of the planets is solved.
<They are simply the old (Ptolemaic) seven
<planets exactly in order, counter clockwise
<from luna, through mercury, venus, sol, mars,
<jupiter, and saturn.  I guess that sol was matched
<with aries, and the other six simply spread
<around it, the lower planets on the right and the
<higher on the left.

<So, not a horoscope at all, just another of those
<"lines, circles, scenes, squares" so familiar
<from the VMs itself.

f67r2 has extra information that Petersen noted, namely
the 12 moons are 6 red and 6 yellow. Going counterclockwise
from okal red are 1,3,5,7,8,11 and yellow are 2,4,6,9,10,12.
The seven planets ( or days or whatever ) are at 1,3,5,8,9,10
and 11.  I think they would be much better starting from luna
as Robert says first.  f75 to f84 would then be expected to
have frequent references to the moon.  Incidentally okal can
be introduced and followed by other symbols but is a raw VM
word in the herbal section f1-f57r in 17 cases out of 22 in hand
A but only 20 out of 39 in hand B.  f58r (all text) is even more
interesting with only 1 out of 22.

Petersen also points out that the outer ring of text and the
middle row of three rows at the bottom of the page are in red.
I wonder if this is unique in the VMs. Also f67v1 has 3 blue
stars with the rest yellow.

See also Petersen's list of months/Zodiac for various languages
on his 129 ( between f67r1 and f67r2 ).

Lastly, for the moment ( I intend to comment later on Statistics
and the VMs - I take a different view to Jorge Stolfi ) back to f67r2.
The length of the VM words seem to correlate roughly with the
luna,mercury,   , saturn order.  The yto appears to have a space
then aiin ( which is god in Stojko's decipherment ! ) .  With the
right language ( and comments such as Mars; ??? ) we might be
on the right track.   I have a warning, however.  The lengths of the
labels seem to have a nasty habit of filling the available space; see
for instance the 10 "nymphs" on f75v and the longer 'phrases'
on the four Aries and Taurus pages ( where the months are
split 15:15 ).  This suggests to me that the text has little or no
relation to the illustrations.

PS.  ain which is attatched to ( possibly ) venus,mars and saturn
is Baby ( or Little ) god in Stojko's decipherment.

Brickbats expected !

Denis



 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 10:56:05 1997
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Dear all

Denis provided some interesting comments:

> f67r2 has extra information that Petersen noted, namely
> the 12 moons are 6 red and 6 yellow. Going counterclockwise
> from okal red are 1,3,5,7,8,11 and yellow are 2,4,6,9,10,12.
Any calender that had nrs of days matching this pattern,
in the middle of the 15C? Or before?

> Incidentally okal can be introduced and followed by other symbols
> but is a raw VM word in the herbal section f1-f57r in 17 cases out
> of 22 in hand A but only 20 out of 39 in hand B.

Do you mean okal occurs 22 or 39 times and 17 or 20 times it is a
word on its own while otherwise it is connected to something else?
Note that the scribe(s) may not have been very careful, and the
same may be said for the transcriptors...
Furthermore, okal is quite happy to receive the Currier-4 prefix
(making it EVA qokal or Currier 4OFAE) which does not necessary
make it a different word (but of course we don't know).

> f58r (all text) is even more interesting with only 1 out of 22.

f58 is a very interesting pair of pages! I remember distinctly
that is seemed much more like 'real language' than some of the
very repetitive sections.

> The length of the VM words seem to correlate roughly with the
> luna,mercury,   , saturn order.  The yto appears to have a space
> then aiin ( which is god in Stojko's decipherment ! )

How good are you with the old Ukrainian now? Could you attempt
to translate these seven words??

>  ain which is attatched to ( possibly ) venus,mars and saturn
> is Baby ( or Little ) god in Stojko's decipherment.

Saturn as a baby.... It'd have to be Mercury, if my mythology
is not fooling me.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 09:05:04 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
> In fact, I don't think we can identify the language through statistics.
> At most, we may be able to distinguish Romance from Germanic, but
> I wouldn't bet on it.  The labels may be the key that will get us started...
> 
> Why did the VMs author use an original alphabet?  Secrecy and
> mystification are obvious guesses, but another possibility is that the
> language he chose was a dialect without a well-established spelling
> system, or had borrowed an alphabet that he tought was inadequate; and
> so he decided to invent a "better" one. (It seems this is a very
> common "disease" of amateur linguists, in all cultures.  My teenage son
> just did that for Portuguese...)

	Have a look at the discussion of the alphabet in my Historical
Precedents document:

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/precednt.txt

	Trandechino gave examples of Renaissance cipher alphabets; some of them
are Voynich-like.  In Cappelli we found gallows characters, although I
point out that the gallows were actually embellishments of ordinary
characters, rather than characters in themselves.  

	Thus the raw materials for the VMs alphabet were available in Europe at
the time.  I think it most likely that it was for concealment.  

> If we can identify the language, then deciphering the VMs should be
> relatively easy, since it seems from the statistics that the VMs
> 'words" are indeed words of the language.  I say "relatively" easy,
> because we will have to learn the language first! (Can you read
> Albanian? Or 15th century Provenal?)

	We think that northern Italy was the  most likely place of origin for
the VMs (once again, see the historical precedents document).  I point
out that Prof. Sergio Toresella is the main source of this opinion.  

	Jim Reeds once made the comment that he thought that the underlying
language for the VMs was a major European language.  If we accept that
and the northern Italian origin, that gives us Latin, Italian, French,
maybe Provencal.  Geographically, Croatian or even Albanian would be
candidates, but they're not major European languages.  

	So Latin, Italian, French seem like good choices for a hypothesis.
> 
>     > If the V words represent parts of words (syllables)
>     > then 'okal' (olpax) does not only have to be 'moon', especially
>     > if vowels were not written, or partly written, or replaced by
>     > vowel placeholders (e.g. o/a/9 = any vowel).
>     > So (using English as an arbitrary example), okal could be 'sn'
>     > or 'mn'.

	I've always thought that the words are either syllables or that word
divisions are set purely by orthographic rules, as in Arabic.  I think
that the VMs is concealed with a verbose cipher or a word game.  I have
done some statistical tests that show that such systems can produce the
low entropies of VMs text.  

> I haven't seen any evidence that the VMs code could be so contrived.
> So, I think I will keep looking for the key under the lamppost. 8-)
> Until proof to the contrary, I'll assume that the VMs "words" are
> basically whole words.

	The word game/cipher may be homophonic (have multiple alternatives);
this could explain the presence of A and B, and also the relative
absence of long repeated strings of text.  Because of this, I hesitate
to look for keys.  I think that a good strategy is to identify the
homophones, the "building blocks", by statistical analysis of the
overall text and then proceed with looking for keys.  

	If we identified the homophones, then we would have a homophonic
substitution cipher and several candidate languages.  I'd think our
crippies would have methods to deal with that situation!

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 17:02:02 1997
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From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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I received this interesting linguistic tidbit and thought immediately that
it must be shared with the VM list (Especially, you EVA types!) 8-)
                        John.

>The European Union commissioners have announced that
>agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
>language for European communications, rather than German,
>which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations,
>the British government conceded that English spelling had
>some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year
>phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for
>short).
>
>In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c".
>Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy.
>Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will
>this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less
>letter.
>
>There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year,
>when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will
>make words like "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.
>
>In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan
>be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated
>changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal
>of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to
>akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of
>silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.
>
>By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as
>replasing "th" by z" and "w" by " v".
>
>During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from
>vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be
>aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
>
>After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.
>Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find
>it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
>
>Ze drem vil finali kum tru.
>
>
>




From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 17:35:02 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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    > [Dennis:] Have a look at the discussion of the alphabet in my Historical
    > Precedents document:
    > 
    > http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/precednt.txt

Yes, I have read your summary. Many thanks for posting it!

    > Trandechino gave examples of Renaissance cipher alphabets; some of them
    > are Voynich-like.
    
I agree that the "secret code" hypothesis is still the most likely
one.  

But, in my view, a "new improved alphabet for XXX" is also a
possibility.  The VMs is a largish piece of text, covering many
subject matters.  I find it hard to believe that someone would go to
the trouble of encoding ALL that text for secrecy.  For mystification,
OK, it is plausible.  Now, under the "better alphabet" hypothesis,
there would be nothing strange about it...

But that is just a thought...

    > We think that northern Italy was the most likely place of origin
    > for the VMs (once again, see the historical precedents
    > document).  I point out that Prof. Sergio Toresella is the main
    > source of this opinion.
    > 
    > Jim Reeds once made the comment that he thought that the
    > underlying language for the VMs was a major European language.
    
I don't recall Jim Reeds's reasons for saying so.

However, the strange alphabet, and the fact that we haven't been 
able to recognize the language, could be taken to support
the "obscure language" thesis.
    
    > If we accept that and the northern Italian origin, that gives us
    > Latin, Italian, French, maybe Provencal.
    
I would add Venetian.  It is still widely spoken in the region today,
and it is about as different from standard Italian as Spanish.  (In
fact, it has been said to resemble Catalan more than Italian.)

Venetian does have some written literature, dating mostly from those
times (the "Arlecchino" plays, for instance); but by and large it is
basically a spoken language, and has no standard spelling system.
Anyone who tries to write it down has to invent half of the
spelling rules on the fly.

    > Geographically, Croatian or even Albanian would be
    > candidates, but they're not major European languages.  

You forgot Serbian 8-) (oops, don't shoot, I'll take back the smiley!)

    > 	So Latin, Italian, French seem like good choices for a hypothesis.

Venice in the XV century was still a cosmopolitan center of trade,
finance, science, and culture.  It probably was still the main gate
between Western Europe and the moribund Byzantine Empire.  A couple of
centuries earlier Venice was fighting with Genoa for control of the
Holy Land, where both had established puppet kingdoms. Near Venice
there were several world-famous universities, such as Padua and
Bologna.  

Therefore, even if the VMs was written in Northern Italy, it does not
follow that the author was born in that general area.  The place must have
been full of intellectuals, students, and crackpots from all
over Europe...

    > I've always thought that the words are either syllables
    
Could be... The correlations between words seem to support that theory.
(More on that later).

However, there are far too many different "words", some of them quite
long, and they seem to combine in rather specific ways. These features
are a bit unlikely for a syllabic code or a verbose cypher.

The sheer length of the text also argues against a complex or verbose
encoding.

    > The word game/cipher may be homophonic (have multiple alternatives);
    > this could explain the presence of A and B, and also the relative
    > absence of long repeated strings of text.
    
Perhaps.  I am pretty sure that some of the variations that we see in
VMs characters are meaningless calligraphic noise.  (The problem is,
of course, that we don't know WHICH ones!)

We must also take into account the change in subject matter.  A mere
change of perspective---say, from present tense to past tense---could
change radically the frequencies of the most common words ("is" for
"was", etc.), and therefore the letter frequencies as well.

Incidentally, the "obscure language" hypothesis also provides another
explanantion for the A/B split.  Typically, a person using an invented
phonetic alphabet will gradually change the spelling rules as he
learns more about the language's phonetic constraints.  And different
persons will of course invent slightly ifferent rules.

If the two hands were two different persons, the differences could be
explained also by regional variations. (The dialect of Venice is
noticeably different from that of my parents, who were born only 100
km further north.  For instance, "there is" is "ge ne" in the latter,
and "ge ze" in the former.  By the way, the "ge" is usually spelled "ghe",
by ifluence of Italian spelling; and the "ze" is often spelled "xe", for
historical reasons...)

Well, sorry to bother you with more idle speculation.  I will try to
make up for this sin by posting some "scientific" results I have got
over the past few days...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 21:35:02 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@paw.montana.com>
To: "'John & Sue Grove'" <handley@fox.nstn.ca>,
        "voynich@rand.org"
	 <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: Euro-English
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:29:21 -0600
Encoding: 65 TEXT
Status: OR



----------
From: 	John & Sue Grove[SMTP:handley@fox.nstn.ca]
Sent: 	Monday, August 11, 1997 14:28
To: 	voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	Euro-English



I received this interesting linguistic tidbit and thought immediately that
it must be shared with the VM list (Especially, you EVA types!) 8-)
                        John.

>The European Union commissioners have announced that
>agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
>language for European communications, rather than German,
>which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations,
>the British government conceded that English spelling had
>some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year
>phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for
>short).
>
>In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c".
>Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy.
>Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will
>this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less
>letter.
>
>There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year,
>when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will
>make words like "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.
>
>In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan
>be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated
>changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal
>of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to
>akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of
>silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.
>
>By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as
>replasing "th" by z" and "w" by " v".
>
>During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from
>vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be
>aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
>
>After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.
>Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find
>it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
>
>Ze drem vil finali kum tru.
>
>
>
this is a shortened version of a 1946 "science fiction" short story called, 
if I remember correctly, "meihem in ce klasrum" by Dolton Edwards,

Best to all, Don







From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 22:02:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:44:21 -0500
To: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: Euro-English
In-Reply-To: <33EF75E4.7BDE0ECE@fox.nstn.ca>
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At 04:28 PM 8/11/97 -0400, John & Sue Grove wrote:
>
>
>>The European Union commissioners have announced that
>>agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
>>language for European communications, rather than German,
>>which was the other possibility. 

	Egad!!  The Europeans agreed on *one* language of communication??  This
has to be fiction.  ;-)

>>After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.
>>Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find
>>it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
>>
>>Ze drem vil finali kum tru.

	This reminds me of another possible explanation for the low entropy of
Voynichese.  It might be a reductionistic scheme like this.  Perhaps trying
to represent 30-40 phonemes with 18-19 characters.  Venetian in a reduced
character set???

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 22:29:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:11:51 -0500
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Venice (was: "Sun" and "Moon" in labels?)
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At 06:28 PM 8/11/97 -0300, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
>    
>I would add Venetian.  It is still widely spoken in the region today,
>and it is about as different from standard Italian as Spanish.  (In
>fact, it has been said to resemble Catalan more than Italian.)

	Of course, there were many dialects of Italian, of which many may well
constitute distinct languages.  (No, I don't speak Italian, despite my work
on Toresella; I struggled through that with Rene's help.)

>Venice in the XV century was still a cosmopolitan center of trade,
>finance, science, and culture.  It probably was still the main gate
>between Western Europe and the moribund Byzantine Empire.  A couple of
>centuries earlier Venice was fighting with Genoa for control of the
>Holy Land, where both had established puppet kingdoms. Near Venice
>there were several world-famous universities, such as Padua and
>Bologna.  
>
>Therefore, even if the VMs was written in Northern Italy, it does not
>follow that the author was born in that general area.  The place must have
>been full of intellectuals, students, and crackpots from all
>over Europe...

	I like the ideal of Venice.  Indeed it was very cosmopolitan, and as I
recall also had relations with the Muslim world as well.  One might have
found anything there.  

	Toresella noted that the majority of the "alchemical herbals" came from
the Venice area.  

	I've seen an ad for a novel, "A Mapmaker's Dream" by James Cowan.  It's
the story of a monk living in a cell on an island in the Venetian lagoon
who tries to compile a definitive map of the world from all the stories he
hears.  It made me think of the VMs right away.  

>
>    > I've always thought that the words are either syllables
>    
>Could be... The correlations between words seem to support that theory.
>(More on that later).
>
>However, there are far too many different "words", some of them quite
>long, and they seem to combine in rather specific ways. These features
>are a bit unlikely for a syllabic code or a verbose cypher.
>
>The sheer length of the text also argues against a complex or verbose
>encoding.

	That all sounds good.  However, how do we then explain the low entropy of
the VMs text?  The main things I've seen so far would be a word
game/verbose cipher, or glossalalia.  Perhaps entropy really isn't a good
measure of order/chaos?  

	Can you think of even an obscure language that would look as repetitious
as Voynichese?  I'm not even sure that Japanese or Polynesian have the same
repetitious "look".  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 12 01:02:02 1997
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From: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:07:46 +0800
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I guess great minds share delusional systems, or something.
Me too: when I saw that "7, 8" I thought at once "July, August".

As far as I know - and I did do a bit of checking - the only common
calendar that has two adjacent fat months is the Julian and its
successors.  So, do we have 30 days in April, June, September,
October and December, and 29 in February?  Was there ever such
a calendar?  Like Mr Guy, I tried looking on the web, always an
utterly frustrating endeavour, and so far have not found one.

Yours
Robert

--------



Rene:
Going counterclockwise
>> from okal red are 1,3,5,7,8,11 and yellow are 2,4,6,9,10,12.
>Any calender that had nrs of days matching this pattern,
>in the middle of the 15C? Or before?

Precisely what I was thinking of. I wonder where we can find that.
Another thought: perhaps it is a pure lunar calendar, like the Muslim
one. That is, with 12 months only. No embolismic month to keep with
the seasons. That rules out Greek and Jewish calendars (and Easter
Island, too!)




From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 12 03:26:01 1997
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:21:09 +0200
Subject: Re: Venice (but a bit of Euro-English first)
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Hi!

>>>The European Union commissioners have announced that
>>>agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
>>>language for European communications, rather than German,
>>>which was the other possibility.

I loved it  when I first read it ages ago, and it's still
funny :-)

 > Egad!!  The Europeans agreed on *one* language of communication??
 > This has to be fiction.  ;-)

 There is more: as you know humankind is only a rat maze experiment
 by some Galactic super-civilisation. Obviously, too, this experiment
 has grown out of control.
 Why haven't they come back?
 It must be that they are wasting all their time trying to
 agree on an intergalactic monetary standard....

 And you should all realise that we're likely to adopt Klingon
 as the official European language, just to make all US
 trekkies insanely jealous :-)

 But back to Venice. Bologna is perhaps a bit out of ze way,
 but Padova is quite close to it. And Venice was very
 much a crossroad of ze entire Mediterranean. It was ze
 place where classical (and other) Greek was introduced to
 ze rest of Europe (something must be wrong with this
 European standard keyboard :-).
 As others have said, anything could surface
 there. Was Kell(e)y ever there before he met Dee?

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 12 03:50:01 1997
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 04:37:22 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Leftists and rightists
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Currier once observed that the VMs statistics for the first and
last words in each line are different from those of the medial words.
I just had a quick look at this "line break anomaly".

As always, I worked with the Biological section (f75r--f84v), using my
peculiar character encoding (similar to Frogguy, but ignoring
ligatures and a few other details).  I got the text from Landini's
interlinear, version 1.6. I kept only the 4700 words where Currier and
Friedman agreed, and mapped the 1300 discordant words to "???".

The average line has about 10 words, and the average number of
lines per paragraph is about 10. (However, several paragraph breaks
seem to be missing in the transcription, so this is only an upper
bound).

I took all the words that occured 8 or more times (104 of them,
including "???"), and computed the probability of each word occuring
at the beginning (BL) or at the end (EL) of a line.

Since there are ~765 line breaks in ~7000 words, the expected
probability of a word occuring at BL (or at EL) is about 11%.

Taking 12% as the cut point, I split those words into four categories,
listed below.  The "freq" column is total occurrences, the other three
columns are probabilities scaled to [0..99].  Column XL is the sum of
BL and EL.  Characters `H' and `P' are gallows, with two legs and one
leg, respectively; `r' is Frogguy's <2>, `e' is <x>, `n' is <iv>, `m'
is <iiv>, `q' is <4>.
  
  Extremists (BL>12, EL>12):

    word         freq BL EL XL
    ------------ ---- -- -- --
    ???          1294 17 18 35
    eoe            17 23 58 81
    sae            14 28 14 42
    sar            11 27 27 54

  Leftists (BL>12, EL<=12)

    word         freq BL EL XL
    ------------ ---- -- -- --
    8am           100 19  8 27
    8an            12 33  0 33
    8ccc8a          9 66  0 66
    8oe            17 17  0 17
    8scc8a         17 88  0 88
    Hccc8a         14 49  0 49
    Pccc8a         14 42  7 49
    Poe             8 99  0 99
    aHc8a          12 24  8 32
    aHcc8a         12 41  8 49
    ascc8a          8 74  0 74
    oeHcc8a        14 14  0 14
    qoHca          43 13  4 17
    qoHcc8a       183 15  2 17
    qoHcca         81 16  3 19
    qoHccc8a       11 18  9 27
    qoHoe          21 14  0 14
    sam            52 44  5 49
    sccor           9 22  0 22
    scoe           11 18  0 18
    soe            25 59  0 59
    sor            10 79  0 79

  Rightists (BL<=12, EL>12):

    word         freq BL EL XL
    ------------ ---- -- -- --
    8a             35  0 31 31
    8ae            50  5 15 20
    ae             12  0 24 24
    e8a             8  0 74 74
    eccc8a         52  5 17 22
    eccca          15  0 19 19
    eor            10  9 39 48
    escc8a         21  9 14 23
    oHa            25  0 27 27
    oe8a            9  0 77 77
    oeHc8a         19  0 21 21
    oea            23  0 78 78
    oeccc8a        23  4 26 30
    oeoe            8  0 49 49
    oeor           13  0 23 23
    oescc8a        14  7 14 21
    qoHa           79  2 25 27
    ram            14  0 21 21
    roe             9  0 33 33

  Centrists (BL<=12, EL<=12)

    word         freq BL EL XL
    ------------ ---- -- -- --
    8ar            51  7  9 16
    Hae            10  0  9  9
    Ham            16  6  0  6
    Hc8a           25  0  7  7
    Hcc8a          14  0  0  0
    aHcca           9  0  0  0
    am             20  0  9  9
    cc8a           16  0 12 12
    ccc8a         172  2  6  8
    cccHa          12  0  0  0
    cccHc8a         8  0  0  0
    cccHca         50  0  7  7
    ccca           67  1  5  6
    cccc8a         19  0 10 10
    ccccHa         12  0  0  0
    ccccHca        35  0  0  0
    cccca          31  3  0  3
    cccoe          17 11  0 11
    cccs            8  0  0  0
    ccoe           11  9  0  9
    eHam            8  0  0  0
    eHc8a           8  0  0  0
    oHae           39  2 10 12
    oHam           76  0  3  3
    oHan           16  6 12 18
    oHar           35  0  2  2
    oHc8a          83  4  3  7
    oHca           21  0  4  4
    oHcc8a         56  0  8  8
    oHcca          34  5  2  7
    oHoe           11  0  0  0
    oPccc8a        14  0  7  7
    oe            127  0 12 12
    oeHa           10  0  0  0
    oeHam          22  0  4  4
    oeHcca         19 10  0 10
    oeccca         12  8  8 16
    oescca          8  0 12 12
    or             40  2  7  9
    qoHae         113  7  7 14
    qoHam         200 11  2 13
    qoHan          54  9  1 10
    qoHar          48  4  2  6
    qoHc8a        198  7  3 10
    qoHccca         8  0  0  0
    qoPccc8a        8 12 12 24
    qoe            81 12 11 23
    qoeccca         8 12  0 12
    sca             9  0 11 11
    scc8a         204  0  4  4
    sccHa          14  0  7  7
    sccHca         37  0  0  0
    sccHcca         8  0  0  0
    scca           69  4  4  8
    sccc8a         36 11  0 11
    scccHa         12  0  8  8
    scccHca        31  0  0  0
    sccca          23  4  0  4
    sccoe          17  5  0  5

Here are four possible explanations I can think of for a word w to
have anomalous distribution with respect to line breaks:

  (1) GRAMMATICAL CONSTRAINTS: If w occurs preferably at the end of a 
      sentence, it will often occur at the end of a paragraph.  Since
      a significant fraction (10% or more) of all EL positions are
      end-of-paragraph, w would turn out to be a rightist.  The same
      argument applies to the other three categories.
      
      This theory has the merit of explaining why the "political
      leaning" of a word is correlated with its "stem".  Note that most
      leftists begin with `8', `a', `qo', or `s', while most rightists
      begin with `e', `oe', or `r'; and almost all words that end in
      `ca' are centrists.

      This effect can only boost the EL probability of w up to the
      probability F of a sentence ending at EL.  Now consider the case
      of `oea', that occurs 23 times, 78% of them at EL.  To explain
      this probability by cause (1), at least 3/4 of all sentences
      would have to end at EL.

      Another extreme case is `qoHam', that occurs 200 times, but only
      2% of those occurrences are at EL, and 11% at BL.  To explain
      those numbers, we must assume that `qoHam' can only occur near
      the beginning of a sentence (but only 10% of the time at the
      very beginning), and that at least 80% of all paragraphs contain
      only one sentence---which roughly agrees with the preceding estimate.
      
      This efect cannot explain the "radical centrist" words like
      `sccHca' (37 occurrences, all centrist); unless most
      sentences consist of a single line.

  (2) WORD SPLITTING: In the VMs, words may have been split across 
      line breaks without obvious markings.  The left half of a split
      word would then show up as a rightist word, while the right half
      would shouw up as a leftist one. 

      This theory may explain the extremism of short words like `8a'
      or `oHa', but cannot account for that of long and common
      words like `oeccc8a' (23 occurrences, 26% at EL).
      
      Also, this theory does not work for the many rightist words that
      end in `8a', like `eccc8a', because `8a' is almost never seen in
      the middle of a word.  Likewise, this effect cannot account for
      leftist words that begin with `qo', which apparently is strictly
      word-initial.

      Finally, this theory cannot explain the "far centrist" words
      like `sccHca'; unless we assume that *most* line breaks occur in
      the middle of a word, which seems rather unlikely.

  (3) BOGUS WORD SPACES: In a sense, this is the opposite of (2).
      Suppose w is part of a longer word x, but the letter spacing is
      such that x was often transcribed as two or three separate
      words, one of them being w.  Then w will seem to avoid BL, EL,
      or both, depending on the position of w in x.

      This effect can only explain centrism, not the other three
      tendencies.  Also, it seems unlikely that character spaces were
      mistaken for word spaces all that often.  The word spaces in VMs
      are usually pretty distinct, and anyway I only considered word
      breaks where both Friedman and Currier agreed.
      
      So, this explanation only works if we assume that the word
      spaces in VMs are *intentionally* bogus.
      
  (4) CALLIGRAPHIC VARIATION: Suppose the first letter c of w has two 
      equivalent forms c' and c'', and c' is favored by the scribe
      when that letter occurs at BL. Then the version of w with c' 
      will show up as rightist, and the one with c'' will come out as
      leftist.
      
      The problem with this explanation is that there seems to be no
      obvious candidates for c' and c''.  By using my stroke-level
      encoding, I have already coolapsed all confundible letter pairs,
      and removed all ligatures.  I can't see what else I could 
      collapse to make the leftist and rightist words merge into
      uniformly distributed ones...

At this time, I would say that (1) is still the most likely
explanation for the "line break anomaly"; but the other effects may
contribute too, especially (4).  In any case, I am unhappy because it
seems we must make somewhat extreme assumptions about paragraph
structure, word splitting, etc..

Comments, anyone?

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 19:50:05 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Latin zodiac astro2
Status: OR

Rene:
Going counterclockwise
>> from okal red are 1,3,5,7,8,11 and yellow are 2,4,6,9,10,12.
>Any calender that had nrs of days matching this pattern,
>in the middle of the 15C? Or before?

Precisely what I was thinking of. I wonder where we can find that.
Another thought: perhaps it is a pure lunar calendar, like the Muslim
one. That is, with 12 months only. No embolismic month to keep with
the seasons. That rules out Greek and Jewish calendars (and Easter
Island, too!)

I had a bookmark... http://212.net/calendar but Netscape insists now
that it does not exist.

Norhing  works :-(  I give up. Useless suggestion of the day:
the language is Semitic. The article is <o>, or, sometimes,
<9> (EVA y). Because Semitic languages make extensive use of
internal flexion, Voynich words have strange distributions.
Some are very common (the uninflected ones, conjunctions,
things like that), the rest have very low frequencies.

Don't take it seriously, though.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 11 20:50:03 1997
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From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Looking for calendars, I found
Status: OR

http://www.avesta.org


where I learnt that Old Persian "mah" was "moon". <lp> looks
a bit like "m", <a> is the spit image of "a", as for <x>...

Lots of interesting links on that site, including our long-
time friends Dee, Kelley and their Enochian Angels.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 12 12:05:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:41:11 -0500
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: Venice (was: "Sun" and "Moon" in labels?)
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At 03:26 PM 8/12/97 EST, Jacques Guy wrote:

>ixohoxi (a.k.a. Dennis):
>> However, how do we then explain the low entropy of
>>the VMs text?  The main things I've seen so far would be a word
>>game/verbose cipher, or glossalalia.  Perhaps entropy really isn't a good
>>measure of order/chaos?
>
>I have argued that it isn't. Remain those repetitions, entropy or not.  
>
>>	Can you think of even an obscure language that would look as repetitious
>>as Voynichese?  I'm not even sure that Japanese or Polynesian have the same
>>repetitious "look".  
>
>Let me take Vietnamese (what I remember of it 30 years later). Most words are
>monosyllabic. Rather, they all are. Those which are not are compounds. A word
>can end only in a vowel, p, t, c, ch, m, n, ng, nh. Ng and nh are single
>sounds, written with two letters. The sound of "f" is always written "ph".
>D and b (which can occur only a the initial), are ... forgot the exact term,
>implosive? You close your mouth, lower your Adam's apple, (keeping your
>vocal chords tightly closed), so that the air pressure inside your mouth is
>less 
>than outside, let go of lips (or tongue against teeth), and vocal chords.
>Air rushes in, making a sound like a cork popping. Now, suppose you were
>to write such sounds down with the lating alphabet, or Greek for that matter.
>Wouldn't you tend to use several letters to write it "descriptively" as
>it were? And that is not the end of it. Final ng and c (pronounced "k") 
>become a very strange sound after o and u. Strange but common in some
>languages of the Pacific Islands, and which you also find in Africa. 
>You articulate "k" and "p" together, and "m" and "ng" also together. 
>Like in the name of the Voodoo divinity Legba. It's not Leg-ba, it's
>Le - gba, with g and b articulated at the same time (not one after 
>the other). So, "learn", hoc, in Vietnamese, is pronounced ho(kp),
>and "uncle", o^ng, ow(mng). If Vietnamese were spelt in that manner,
>you would find those strange clusters, kp and mng (or pk and ngm) only
>after o and u.  I am sure that Vietnamese is not alone in doing such
>strange things with sounds. Spelt phonetically, it would do equally
>strange things with entropy. Ecco!

	In other words, it could be a verbose orthography?  I was just thinking
about that.  

	Here are some entropy figures I once posted on VMs text:

Herbal A - voyas
Herbal B - voyb

May 2, 1997 21:24 GMT
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------
voyas.cur      33    9804   5.044   3.792   2.313   1.479   39.0   22.9
voyb.cur       34   13858   5.087   3.796   2.267   1.529   40.3   22.3
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5
voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   1.812   47.7   22.7
voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   1.778   46.1   23.7
voyas.guy      19   13539   4.248   3.710   1.951   1.759   47.4   23.0
voyb.guy       19   17975   4.248   3.749   1.999   1.750   46.7   23.5

	There's a big difference in the many of the second-order relative entropy
measures between Currier & FSG on one hand, and Frogguy and EVA on the
other.  Frogguy and EVA, of course, are much more verbose.  Frogguy cqpt =
Currier Q, eg.

	So - perhaps Venetian in a verbose orthography?

	I wonder - how would the various "paradigms" - Tiltman's, Robert Firth's
#24, and most recently Jorge Stolfi's for biological text - fit into this?
The paradigms all show two parts - initial and final.  Stolfi's and Firth's
both explain about 75% of the text.

Dennis





From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 12 12:44:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 12 Aug 97 at 10:41, Dennis wrote:

> 	In other words, it could be a verbose orthography?  I was just thinking
> about that.  
> 	So - perhaps Venetian in a verbose orthography?

Maybe, but then why:
1. the short word lengths
2. the repetitions of the type: qokey.qokeey and dain.ain,aiin ?

Could these be syllables or numbers?

> 	I wonder - how would the various "paradigms" - Tiltman's, Robert Firth's
> #24, and most recently Jorge Stolfi's for biological text - fit into this?
> The paradigms all show two parts - initial and final.  Stolfi's and Firth's
> both explain about 75% of the text.

Yes this is curious. The first thing that I can think of is "written 
in verse".
Note that also in some languages ending structures do appear much 
more than in English. In Japanese you have "desu" at the end of most 
sentences (there are others, arimasu, gozaimasu, etc,) so even you 
could say that most sentences end in "su". In Spanish you can fiddle 
quite a lot with sentences structures. Perhaps this is the same in 
Portuguese/French/Italian, I just don't know.

So here we are, voynichese is a numeric code of syllables in Japanese 
and in verse   :-)

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 12 14:08:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:02:52 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>   (1) GRAMMATICAL CONSTRAINTS: If w occurs preferably at the end of a
>       sentence, it will often occur at the end of a paragraph.  Since
>       a significant fraction (10% or more) of all EL positions are
>       end-of-paragraph, w would turn out to be a rightist.  The same
>       argument applies to the other three categories.

	Sounds like a job for Son of Glotto, alias FQ on Gabriel's Web page!

>   (2) WORD SPLITTING: In the VMs, words may have been split across
>       line breaks without obvious markings.  The left half of a split
>       word would then show up as a rightist word, while the right half
>       would shouw up as a leftist one.

	One would expect this; I've seen this on many medieval Ms.  Modern
typography also splits words at line breaks, but uses hyphens to
indicate it.

	All your explanations sound reasonable; they may all be true to some
extent.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 12 01:41:01 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Re: Venice (was: "Sun" and "Moon" in labels?)
Status: OR

ixohoxi (a.k.a. Dennis):
> However, how do we then explain the low entropy of
>the VMs text?  The main things I've seen so far would be a word
>game/verbose cipher, or glossalalia.  Perhaps entropy really isn't a good
>measure of order/chaos?

I have argued that it isn't. Remain those repetitions, entropy or not.  

>	Can you think of even an obscure language that would look as repetitious
>as Voynichese?  I'm not even sure that Japanese or Polynesian have the same
>repetitious "look".  

Let me take Vietnamese (what I remember of it 30 years later). Most words are
monosyllabic. Rather, they all are. Those which are not are compounds. A word
can end only in a vowel, p, t, c, ch, m, n, ng, nh. Ng and nh are single
sounds, written with two letters. The sound of "f" is always written "ph".
D and b (which can occur only a the initial), are ... forgot the exact term,
implosive? You close your mouth, lower your Adam's apple, (keeping your
vocal chords tightly closed), so that the air pressure inside your mouth is
less 
than outside, let go of lips (or tongue against teeth), and vocal chords.
Air rushes in, making a sound like a cork popping. Now, suppose you were
to write such sounds down with the lating alphabet, or Greek for that matter.
Wouldn't you tend to use several letters to write it "descriptively" as
it were? And that is not the end of it. Final ng and c (pronounced "k") 
become a very strange sound after o and u. Strange but common in some
languages of the Pacific Islands, and which you also find in Africa. 
You articulate "k" and "p" together, and "m" and "ng" also together. 
Like in the name of the Voodoo divinity Legba. It's not Leg-ba, it's
Le - gba, with g and b articulated at the same time (not one after 
the other). So, "learn", hoc, in Vietnamese, is pronounced ho(kp),
and "uncle", o^ng, ow(mng). If Vietnamese were spelt in that manner,
you would find those strange clusters, kp and mng (or pk and ngm) only
after o and u.  I am sure that Vietnamese is not alone in doing such
strange things with sounds. Spelt phonetically, it would do equally
strange things with entropy. Ecco!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug 13 07:26:02 1997
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From: "David R. Jones" <jdnolan@budget.net>
To: "zee list" <zee-list@eskimo.com>
Cc: "VOYNICH-L" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Get out your decoder rings.  (shameless maybe off topic self promotion)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 04:19:41 -0700
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

Parker has updated my Enochian Art Page, and improved the technology. 
Challenge your ability to read the Angelic Alphabet, and find the hidden
link 8*) at:

http://w3.one.net/~parker/JonesArt.html

A chance for all you non members of the Enochian gfx-l to see some of what
you're missing.

Also my own mediocre attempt at html at:

http://members.theglobe.com/jdnolan/default.html?preview=3079919761

Only the whole Tables, but they're bigger.

Love is the law, love under will.

David R. Jones aka Prospero  
     jdnolan@budget.net
     http://w3.one.net/~parker/JonesArt.html
Magick code:  MEN/TH (# S* W---->----- N++>* PWM/AM++++ Ds@/d++/r+++ A+++
a+++ C++++>* G* QO+++++(#196884q) 666+++ Y+++>++++


From reeds Wed Aug 13 16:54:54 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9708131654.ZM21989@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:54:54 -0400
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Interesting tid-bit about W. M. Voynich
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Check out this web page

	http://www.whallenbooks.com/history.html

for a brief mention of W. M. Voynich, about 1/2 way down.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug 14 12:29:27 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs Zodiac Statistics
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:29:09 +0100
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  From         Denis Mardle    14 August 1997

Hello All

I have made a very interesting discovery that may be
new.  It is certainly relevant and is completely independent
of codes, ciphers, languages etc.  I am working with the
lengths of the labels in Voynich symbols including all the
'words' in the label if there are more than one.  I will give
statistics later but the first important observation, only
evident by looking at the 10 Zodiac pages, is that the
figures ( mostly 'nymphs' ) are very unequally spaced.
Even more important the lengths of the labels between 
figures have a very strong correlation with the lengths of the 
available spaces !       Now this can have only three
explanations :-
  A)  The figures were drawn without knowing where the
        labels would go ( or knowing the positions but not
        the lengths ).
  B)  The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
       lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
       for the total lengths.  This meant splitting the 243 symbols
      of Aries into two half months, similarly for the 228 of Taurus
      and giving a full third circle for Cancer ( 236 symbols ).
 C)  The figures were drawn later.

Now C) is extremely unlikely as the later herbs and pots in the
Pharmaceutical section were not given labels. Also B) gives
severe problems with Gemini as one very small space could not
be used, probably because the label was too long, and this would
throw out the later labels from their 'pre-prepared' slots.
 So - I strongly favour A) .  This, however, almost certainly implies
that labels are put in to fill the avaiable space ( I suspect this also
in other sections, but we all need to check this point )  and my
conclusion is that the text has no relation to the illustrations !
 I do admit that the Biological section is in a different hand/language
to every other section so text and illustrations were done by the 
same person.  I will also admit that the Zodiac section could have
been drawn and text written in parallel by the same person, but this
would be very tricky to get right.  Is there any evidence for this last
thought ?

 Now statistics.    Column headers explained later.

(z)                     (s)                                (r)             
  (m)    (t)    (i)
        2 3 4  5  6  7 8 9 10 11 13 14 17 18    1st 2nd 3rd       

PSC    1 2  9 11 5 2                                   10 19          5.77 
173  2
AR1           2  4    3 1        2   1   1       1       5 10         8.93 
134  3 
AR2           1  3  7 1 2       1                         5  10        7.27
  109  -
TA1       1   1  4  4 3 1       1                         5  10        7.00
  105  7 
TA2              4  3 3 1        2   1                    5  10        8.20
  123 11
GEM      6  7  7  5 4                                     9  16   5   5.79 
 168   3
CNC    1 1  2  4  3 6 6   2  2    1        1          7  11  12  8.14   
236 30
LEO    1 6  7  5  6 2 2   1                            12  18       5.93   
178   7
VIR        1  5 14 8 1 1                                 12  18       6.20 
  186  10
LIB      1 511 11 2                                       10  20      5.27 
   158   6
SCO 1 4 4  7  7  7                                       10 16   4  5.20   
 156  2
SGR    1 9  7  8  5                                       10 16   4  5.23  
  157  7

z = Zodiac sign   s = symbol counts  r = figure rings  m = mean symbol
count    t = total symbol count    i = no. of symbol i's in t.

 One could also measure label lengths and figure gaps but I'm not sure if
the copies are all to the same magnification.

Comments ??            Denis
   

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug 14 19:35:20 1997
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:13:13 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: re:  Zodiac and herbal pages
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Status: OR

 I cannot precisely pinpoint what influenced my first impressions of the
Voynich, but I do remember well that when I first looked at the zodiac pages
I was reminded of lunar calendars, and not solar calendars.  I think perhaps
it reminded me of the stories of folk herbalism and the 'barefoot doctors'
of the past and present.  A lunar day is not equal to a solar day, and a
lunar month can vary as much as four days, depending on how you count the
cycle.  There are months with as many as three days of full moon, and other
months when the visual moon is still waxing one day,  and visually waning
the next, never reaching a full state.  Should these states of the moon by
counted by the old calendar and matched with the appropriate zodiac, one
might even be able to deduce the possible years in which the zodiac was
drawn.  My impression is that these drawings are an old-time farmer's
almanac.

What struck me odd about the herbal pages is that most of the plants are
drawn in the seeding stage, and not the normally depicted stage where the
plant may be picked for consumption.  Considering the age of the drawings,
this also reminds me of the old style remedies.  Plants were to be picked in
certain stages of development and solar/lunar influence for different
effects on the body.  It was reasoned that the plants physically changed
form from one stage to another, and therefore they must also have changed
essence, which was influenced by the sun, the moon and the planets.  If you
wish to see just one of many very Voynich-like plants in person, let  your
artichoke go to seed.  You would never identify it as an artichoke if you
did not know to begin with.

If the Voynich zodiac is indeed based on a lunar year, there is much to be
considered in its meaning.  While most traditional medicines were gathered
from plants during daylight hours, a lunar calendar means something quite
different in folk medicine.  The gathering of medicinal aids for fertility,
sexual stimulation,  and contraception was typically a nocturnal pursuit.
Love potions and other magical medicines were also gathered at night.  The
components were usually either parts of very small seedlings or portions of
plants that had received the full lunar influence and went to seed
themselves.

Granted these are untested impressions, but if they are correct, we are
dealing with a lunatic in the truest sense.


Regards,  Rayman


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug 15 12:53:19 1997
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Dear all

Denis' comments about the zodiac labels deserve
some attention, as the notion that the labels
might be 'meaningless filler' could be one explanation
of his observations, as he also points out.
Unfortunately, the table at the bottom came to me
with the lines wrapped and alignment lost so I could
not really understand these.
Anyway, Denis wrote:

>... the first important observation ... is that the
> figures ( mostly 'nymphs' ) are very unequally spaced.
> Even more important the lengths of the labels between
> figures have a very strong correlation with the lengths of the
> available spaces !       Now this can have only three
> explanations :-

  > A)  The figures were drawn without knowing where the
  >      labels would go ( or knowing the positions but not
  >      the lengths ).

  This would exclude that this section of the Ms is
  a fair copy, an issue that was never resolved, but
  should be considered. There are some indications for
  and against the 'fair copy' theory in the other sections.
  Perhaps we may even differentiate between the first
  few pages (Pisces to the Tauri) and the later pages
  (Gemini and ff.) The first group are drawn and written
  with more attention. These are also the ones with the
  cans (the transition being in Taurus-2 (dark). Perhaps
  the later figures give originals and the earlier ones
  are fair copies, with additional embellishments...

  > B)  The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
  >     lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
  >     for the total lengths.

  I like this one best. One may even assume that the figures
  and the text were done at the same time.

 > C)  The figures were drawn later.

> Now C) is extremely unlikely...

Agreed. Let's assume these pages were drafted up as follows
(leaving open the question of whether we are looking at
the drafts or fair copies):

First the circles were drawn. These are pretty circular and
concentric. Space was left for the circular text. Now, we're
faced with a similar mystery as brought up by Denis: the
text always fits exactly!!!

The zodiac emblem was done either first or last.

The nymphs were drawn from the inside ring outwards, with
the text added either immediately or afterwards. The text
is written to the right of the nymph. I think there are
two possibilities for the order: either starting near
00:00 and going clockwise or starting near 09:00 and going
against the clock, this from observing where the nymphs are
more cramped together (especially the inner circle of
Sagittarius).

> Also B) gives severe problems with Gemini as one very
> small space could not be used...

There is one nymph in Gemini without a label. I would
favour the idea that this was a simple oversight. There is
also one nymph without a star somewhere...

 > So - I strongly favour A) .  This, however, almost
 > certainly implies that labels are put in to fill the
 > avaliable space ( I suspect this also in other sections,
 > but we all need to check this point )  and my conclusion
 > is that the text has no relation to the illustrations !

 I would 'like' that the text belongs with the illustrations
 and perhaps this biases my views. But I think the Pisces
 page is a counterexample to Denis' observations. The
 labels are generally of a similar length. In the inner
 circle they do not fill all the space available. In the
 outer circle (especially near the top) they are crammed in,
 sometimes even writing two halves above each other.

 > I do admit that the Biological section is in a different
 > hand/language to every other section so text and
 > illustrations were done by the same person.

 Certainly a different 'language', though it is less different
 from some sections (stars) than from some others.
 About the hands: I am not all that sure. We have always
 stuck to the term 'language' to differentiate between
 A and B, even though this is perhaps not the best name
 (as Currier also admitted).  With 'hands' we can do the same,
 but the idea that different persons were involved
 should not be taken for granted. The differences are
 obvious at first sight, but whenever experts were asked,
 they said: one person.

 I fully agree with Denis that text and drawings (in the
 astro, cosmo and bio sections at least) were probably done
 by one and the same person.

 > I will also admit that the Zodiac section could have
 > been drawn and text written in parallel by the same person,
 > but this would be very tricky to get right.

 Not tricky if it's a copy of some draft or sketch.

 > Is there any evidence for this last thought ?

The last few diagrams seem like drafts. If they were
done against the clock, they could well have been drawn
in parallel, with a general adjustment being made once
the composer got near the end of each circle.

Further comments much appreciated...

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug 15 21:50:06 1997
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:15:38 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Word lumping in Bio section
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Status: OR


Folks,

A while ago I posted a table showing the distribution of each
"word" in the Biological section, as a function of position.
Yesterday I recomputed that table with slightly better data and
slightly different parameters.

I had already remarked that many of the words are NOT distributed
uniformly over the whole text.  Now I noticed also that words
with the same "stem" tend to have similar distributions.

Below are the distributions for the most common words (at least 10
occurrences in the Bio section), plus a handful of related words of
somewhat lower frequency.

To build the table, I split the Bio section (after a bit of cleanup)
into 10 "blocks" of about 590 words each.  The first two columns are the
word and its total occurences in the Bio section.  The next 10 numbers
are the counts of how many times the word occurred in each block.  The
next 10 numbers are those same counts, expressed as percentages of the
"TOTAL" count.

The character encoding in this message is somewhat similar to Frogguy, with
identification of some easily confused VMs characters, such as <a>
with <9>, <e> with <c>, <iv> with <iiv>, <qp> with <lp>.  
Here is a table with the differences:

    Frogguy:   a    9    4    x    c    e    t    s    e'  
    ---------  ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    This msg:  a    a    4    x    c    c    c    s    s   
             
    Frogguy:   2    iiiv iiv  iv  
    ---------  ---- ---- ---- ----
    This msg:  r    m    m    m   
             
    Frogguy:   qp   lp   eQPt eLPt
    ---------  ---- ---- ---- ----
    This msg:  H    H    cHc  cHc 

    Frogguy:   dj   fj   eDJt eFJt
    ---------  ---- ---- ---- ----
    This msg:  P    P    cPc  cPc 

I have grouped the words into "grammatical classes", based on their
apparent "inflection" pattern.


* CLASS [1a] words come in groups of 4, each group being one of the stems
    {8 H oH 4oH oxH s r `'} combined with the suffixes {ar ax am a}.
    (Keep in mind that `am' here is actually a merge of `am' and `an').

    WORD      TOTAL  ABS FREQ BY BLOCK               REL FREQ BY BLOCK            
                     #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9   #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------
    8ar          64  13  5  2  8  3  4  3  7  3 16   20  8  3 12  5  6  5 11  5 25
    8ax          63   8  5  6 17  3  1  3  8  9  3   13  8  9 27  5  2  5 13 14  5
    8am         120  10 15 13 15  6  6  8 16 12 19    8 12 11 12  5  5  7 13 10 16
    8a           53  10  5  3  7  4  2  6 10  2  4   19  9  6 13  7  4 11 19  4  7

    oHar         40  11  8  1  4  4  4  3  2  .  3   27 20  2 10 10 10  7  5  .  7
    oHax         43   3  4  .  5  7  4  7  4  2  7    7  9  . 12 16  9 16  9  5 16
    oHam        105   5 14  6  4 13 28 10  9 10  6    5 13  6  4 12 26  9  8  9  6
    oHa          31   2  7  2  4  1  6  3  4  1  1    6 22  6 13  3 19 10 13  3  3

    4oHar        53  10  4  2  .  9  9  3  6  6  4   19  7  4  . 17 17  6 11 11  7
    4oHax       128   9  7  5 22  8 15 14 20 19  9    7  5  4 17  6 12 11 15 15  7
    4oHam       265  32 11 34 30 25 41 28 21 36  7   12  4 13 11  9 15 10  8 13  3
    4oHa         84  12  4  6  5  6 12  9 13  9  8   14  5  7  6  7 14 11 15 11  9

    oxHar         7   1  .  .  .  1  1  3  .  1  .   14  .  .  . 14 14 42  . 14  .
    oxHax         6   .  .  .  .  2  1  2  .  .  1    .  .  .  . 33 17 33  .  . 17
    oxHam        31   1  .  .  4  3  7 11  2  3  .    3  .  . 13 10 22 35  6 10  .
    oxHa         12   1  1  .  1  2  2  3  .  .  2    8  8  .  8 17 17 25  .  . 17

    Har          11   .  .  .  1  1  3  .  3  2  1    .  .  .  9  9 27  . 27 18  9
    Hax          19   2  2  .  .  3  3  5  .  2  2   10 10  .  . 16 16 26  . 10 10
    Ham          39   3  1  4  3  .  8 11  5  4  .    8  3 10  8  . 20 28 13 10  .
    Ha            6   2  1  .  .  .  2  .  1  .  .   33 17  .  .  . 33  . 17  .  .

    ar           19   1  2  3  2  1  4  3  .  2  1    5 10 16 10  5 21 16  . 10  5
    ax           20   .  9  3  .  2  .  5  .  .  1    . 45 15  . 10  . 25  .  .  5
    am           53   2  8 10  6  4  6  6  3  4  4    4 15 19 11  7 11 11  6  7  7
    a            13   1  2  .  2  3  2  2  .  1  .    8 15  . 15 23 15 15  .  8  .

    sar          12   1  2  4  .  .  .  3  .  2  .    8 17 33  .  .  . 25  . 17  .
    sax          19   3  3  2  3  2  1  .  2  2  1   16 16 10 16 10  5  . 10 10  5
    sam          57   5 10 10  6  7  2  1  4  8  4    9 17 17 10 12  3  2  7 14  7
    sa            3   .  .  1  .  .  1  .  .  1  .    .  . 33  .  . 33  .  . 33  .

    rar           5   .  .  .  1  .  1  1  .  1  1    .  .  . 20  . 20 20  . 20 20
    rax           6   .  1  .  1  .  2  1  .  .  1    . 17  . 17  . 33 17  .  . 17
    ram          17   .  2  5  3  .  .  1  4  1  1    . 12 29 17  .  .  6 23  6  6
    ra            5   1  .  .  .  1  .  1  1  .  1   20  .  .  . 20  . 20 20  . 20
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------

    To my eyes at least, the relative spatial distributions (REL FREQ) seem
    to depend markedly on the stem, and much less on the suffix.  For
    instance, the `8' stem is relatively rare in blocks #4 and #5; `oH' is
    rare in #2 and #8; `4oH' avoids #1 and #9; and so on.
    
    This "stem effect" is stronger for stem `oxH', and very weak (or inexistent?)
    for stem `r'.

    This stem effect seems consistent with the general Indo-European pattern
    of attaching concrete concepts to the stem, and syntactic function
    to the suffix.  
    
    (If change in local subject matter is the explanation for the uneven
    distribution of these words, then they must be "content words"---nouns,
    verbs, adjectives, adverbs.  But then, where are the "function" words
    (articles, prepositions, determinatives.), which dominate the "top 20"
    word frequency lists for English and Portuguese?  Perhaps this data is
    evidence that the text is Latin, which uses inflections instead of
    prepositions of articles?)

    I think I can see also, for each stem, a slight forward shift of the
    distribution as the suffix changes in the sequence `ar ax am a'.
    However the distribution of the `am' variants seem to be more
    blurred than the others, perhaps because of the `am'/`an' mixing.
    
    Incidentally, according to Rene, `oHax' (= Frogguy <olpax>)
    is probably one of the "planet" names, presumably "sun".
    
    (Very incidentally, "sun" in Italian is "sole", which is also the
    feminine plural of "solo" (= "alone", "only").  The gender/number
    declination of the latter follows the standard Italian pattern, 
    {solo sola soli sole sol}, the last one being a truncated 
    form commonly used before certain words.  Er... hmmm...so what?)


* CLASS [1b] consists of some of the class [1a] stems, namely 
    {8, oH, 4oH, H, s, r, ""}, with the suffixes {ox or}:

    WORD      TOTAL  ABS FREQ BY BLOCK               REL FREQ BY BLOCK            
                     #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9   #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------
    8oe          26   .  1  2  5  2  2  3  4  2  5    .  4  8 19  8  8 11 15  8 19

    oHox         11   .  1  1  .  2  3  1  .  1  2    .  9  9  . 18 27  9  .  9 18

    4oHox        24   .  .  5  3  2  2  7  1  2  2    .  . 21 12  8  8 29  4  8  8

    Hox          14   3  .  2  1  .  1  4  1  1  1   21  . 14  7  .  7 28  7  7  7
    Pox          11   .  .  1  .  2  1  4  1  1  1    .  .  9  . 18  9 36  9  9  9
    Hor           5   .  .  .  .  .  1  2  .  .  2    .  .  .  .  . 20 40  .  . 40

    ox          213  22  6  6 25 38 26 41 16  9 24   10  3  3 12 18 12 19  7  4 11
    or           66   7  7  1  8 15  6  9  2  1 10   11 11  2 12 23  9 14  3  2 15

    sox          40   4  2  4  3  5  4  3  2 10  3   10  5 10  7 12 10  7  5 25  7
    sor          13   2  1  .  2  1  2  2  .  2  1   15  8  . 15  8 15 15  . 15  8

    ror           4   .  .  .  .  1  .  2  .  .  1    .  .  .  . 25  . 50  .  . 25
    rox          10   1  .  .  1  .  2  1  5  .  .   10  .  . 10  . 20 10 50  .  .
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------

    The [1b] distributions for each stem resemble those of the
    corresponding [1a] in some blocks, but differ markedly in others.
    For instance, `8ar' and `8ox' are both common in blocks #3 and #7,
    but `8ar' also likes block #0 while `8ox' avoids it.  Also, some
    of the [1a] stems practically don't occur with these two suffixes.

  
* CLASS [2a] combines the stems {H aH oH oxH 4oH xc oxc} with the
    suffixes {c8a, cc8a, cca}.

    WORD      TOTAL  ABS FREQ BY BLOCK               REL FREQ BY BLOCK            
                     #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9   #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------
    Hc8a         46   5  2  1 10  3  2  3  4  5 11   11  4  2 22  6  4  6  9 11 24
    Hcc8a        29   4  2  4  5  3  2  4  .  .  5   14  7 14 17 10  7 14  .  . 17
    Hcca         11   1  1  2  .  2  4  .  .  .  1    9  9 18  . 18 36  .  .  .  9

    aHc8a        13   1  .  .  3  1  .  .  4  .  4    8  .  . 23  8  .  . 30  . 30
    aHcc8a       12   .  1  .  2  1  2  1  2  .  3    .  8  . 17  8 17  8 17  . 25
    aHcca        10   1  1  .  1  2  4  .  1  .  .   10 10  . 10 20 40  . 10  .  .

    oHc8a        88  11 13  8 12  2  2  3  5  5 27   12 15  9 14  2  2  3  6  6 30
    oHcc8a       59   5 12  3  5  7  9  3  3  3  9    8 20  5  8 12 15  5  5  5 15
    oHcca        35   3  6  1  .  4  7  4  5  2  3    8 17  3  . 11 20 11 14  6  8

    oxHc8a       21   2  4  1  3  1  .  5  .  1  4    9 19  5 14  5  . 24  .  5 19
    oxHcc8a      15   1  .  .  .  1  2  2  3  4  2    7  .  .  .  7 13 13 20 26 13
    oxHcca       20   1  2  1  2  .  8  2  .  1  3    5 10  5 10  . 40 10  .  5 15

    4oHc8a      204  24 10 27 39 10 10 11 23 18 32   12  5 13 19  5  5  5 11  9 16
    4oHcc8a     193  23 15 43 15 14 18 11 22 16 16   12  8 22  8  7  9  6 11  8  8
    4oHcca       90   5 10  9  7  5 15  6 13  8 12    6 11 10  8  6 17  7 14  9 13

    xcc8a         5   2  .  1  .  1  .  .  .  1  .   40  . 20  . 20  .  .  . 20  .
    xccc8a       53   3  7 11  7  5  .  4  8  8  .    6 13 21 13  9  .  7 15 15  .
    xccca        17   1  1  2  .  3  2  2  4  1  1    6  6 12  . 17 12 12 23  6  6

    oxcc8a        3   .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  2    .  .  . 33  .  .  .  .  . 66
    oxccc8a      24   5  3  2  3  1  1  1  2  3  3   21 12  8 12  4  4  4  8 12 12
    oxccca       11   3  .  2  1  1  .  .  1  .  3   27  . 18  9  9  .  .  9  . 27
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------

    Again, the spatial distribution seems to depend on the stem, but not
    as clearly as in class [1a].  
    
    Also, several words in this class have almost uniform
    distributions.  That is characteristic of "function" words, like
    prepositions and articles.  But those words could also be concrete
    words that are basic to this section's topic (e.g. "water",
    "tube", "flowing", or "naked woman" 8-).

    Note that the first `c' of the suffix could be interpreted as part
    of the stem.  Note also that the letters `8' and `a' begin with a
    `c' stroke; i.e we could read the suffixes as {cc~ci ccc~ci ccci},
    where `~' is the same looped flourish that turns Frogguy <i> into <&>.


* CLASS [2b] uses the same suffixes {c8a cc8a cca} for the stems {c s cc sc}.

    WORD      TOTAL  ABS FREQ BY BLOCK               REL FREQ BY BLOCK            
                     #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9   #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------
    cc8a         24   1  3  2  3  1  .  1  6  2  5    4 12  8 12  4  .  4 25  8 21
    sc8a          6   .  4  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .    . 66  .  .  .  .  .  . 33  .

    ccca         89   8 15  8  2  4  9 10 12 16  5    9 17  9  2  4 10 11 13 18  6
    scca         86  16 10  4  5  9 10  9  3 10 10   18 12  5  6 10 12 10  3 12 12

    ccc8a       211  19 25 29 25 18  9 18 23 22 23    9 12 14 12  8  4  8 11 10 11
    scc8a       233  18 29 24 26 17 14 19 18 34 34    8 12 10 11  7  6  8  8 14 14

    sccca        34   2  5  5  3  9  5  1  2  .  2    6 15 15  9 26 15  3  6  .  6
    cccca        35   3  1  5  3  4  4  3  8  3  1    8  3 14  8 11 11  8 23  8  3

    sccc8a       42   5  4  6  5  7  2  5  2  4  2   12  9 14 12 17  5 12  5  9  5
    cccc8a       23   1  3  9  1  4  .  1  2  2  .    4 13 39  4 17  .  4  9  9  .
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------

    I have listed these words separately from class [2a], and in a
    different order, because the distribution and absolute frequency of
    each `c' stem resemble quite strongly those of the corresponding `s'
    stem. 

    Note that `ccc8a' can be parsed in two ways, as `cc' + `c8a' or 
    `c' + `cc8a'; and ditto for `scc8a'.  This overlap between the two 
    "declinations" may explain the exceptionally high frequency of these
    two words.  

    It is quite possible that the two parsings of `ccc8a' are
    disambiguated in the actual text by the <et> and <e't> ligatures,
    which do not show up in my encoding.  I haven't checked this
    hypothesis.
  

* CLASS [2c] also combines the same stems {c s cc sc} with 
    the sufixes {ccHa ccHca cox}: 

    WORD      TOTAL  ABS FREQ BY BLOCK               REL FREQ BY BLOCK            
                     #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9   #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------
    cccHa        14   2  .  .  4  .  2  1  2  2  1   14  .  . 28  . 14  7 14 14  7
    sccHa        17   1  1  2  .  1  9  1  1  .  1    6  6 12  .  6 52  6  6  .  6

    cccHca       55   4  8  4  3  6  7  7  6  3  7    7 14  7  5 11 13 13 11  5 13
    sccHca       39   3  8  1  1  4  4  4  2  4  8    8 20  3  3 10 10 10  5 10 20

    ccox         13   .  1  2  .  3  1  2  1  2  1    .  8 15  . 23  8 15  8 15  8
    scox         15   .  2  .  .  6  .  3  2  1  1    . 13  .  . 40  . 20 13  7  7

    ccccHa       12   1  .  3  4  .  1  .  2  1  .    8  . 25 33  .  8  . 17  8  .
    scccHa       13   4  1  2  1  1  1  1  .  2  .   30  8 15  8  8  8  8  . 15  .

    ccccHca      36   1  2  5  4  1 12  2  2  4  3    3  6 14 11  3 33  6  6 11  8
    scccHca      33   4  2  3  2  . 10  3  5  3  1   12  6  9  6  . 30  9 15  9  3

    cccox        28   .  1  4  2  1  2  6  3  7  2    .  4 14  7  4  7 21 11 25  7
    sccox        24   3  .  2  3  6  1  1  3  3  2   12  .  8 12 25  4  4 12 12  8
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------

    I can't see much resemblance between the [2b] and [2c] distributions,
    whether I pair them by suffix or by prefix.  But perhaps I didn't
    squint my eyes in the right way...
  
  
* CLASS [3] is simply all the common (freq >= 10) words that I could't fit
   into any clear pattern:


    WORD      TOTAL  ABS FREQ BY BLOCK               REL FREQ BY BLOCK            
                     #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9   #0 #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------
    s            13   2  4  3  1  .  1  .  .  .  2   15 30 23  8  .  8  .  .  . 15
    r            11   1  2  4  .  1  1  .  1  1  .    9 18 36  .  9  9  .  9  9  .
    xox          20   5  1  5  1  2  3  2  .  .  1   25  5 25  5 10 15 10  .  .  5
    4ox         124  16  6 11 12 22  8 15 13 13  8   13  5  9 10 18  6 12 10 10  6
    xor          10   2  1  .  .  1  2  1  1  1  1   20 10  .  . 10 20 10 10 10 10
    oxor         16   .  3  1  .  1  4  2  2  2  1    . 19  6  .  6 25 12 12 12  6
    oxa          26   4  3  .  1  6  3  4  1  1  3   15 11  .  4 23 11 15  4  4 11
    oHca         23   2  4  1  2  2  2  4  1  .  5    9 17  4  9  9  9 17  4  . 22
    4oHca        44   5  9  2  3  5  3  6  5  .  6   11 20  5  7 11  7 14 11  . 14
    sca          14   3  2  .  .  1  2  3  2  1  .   21 14  .  .  7 14 21 14  7  .
    xHam         12   1  3  1  2  1  2  .  1  .  1    8 25  8 17  8 17  .  8  .  8
    sccor        11   1  2  .  2  1  2  2  .  .  1    9 18  . 18  9 18 18  .  .  9
    ox8a         10   4  .  .  1  .  .  .  2  2  1   40  .  . 10  .  .  . 20 20 10
    8ccc8a       10   2  1  1  .  .  1  2  3  .  .   20 10 10  .  . 10 20 30  .  .
    8scc8a       17   3  2  1  3  1  1  1  4  .  1   17 12  6 17  6  6  6 23  .  6
    Pccc8a       18   3  2  1  1  4  .  4  2  .  1   17 11  6  6 22  . 22 11  .  6
    Hccc8a       18   2  1  2  3  2  2  .  3  3  .   11  6 11 17 11 11  . 17 17  .
    oPccc8a      16   2  1  1  2  5  3  .  .  2  .   12  6  6 12 31 19  .  . 12  .
    oxscc8a      14   3  1  .  1  3  .  2  1  .  3   21  7  .  7 21  . 14  7  . 21
    xscc8a       22   2  2  4  2  1  1  2  4  1  3    9  9 18  9  5  5  9 18  5 14
    4oHccc8a     11   1  .  1  2  .  .  1  1  3  2    9  .  9 18  .  .  9  9 27 18
    --------- -----  -----------------------------   -----------------------------

Conclusions are left to the reader as an exercise 8-)

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug 15 21:50:04 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics
In-Reply-To: <E0wz2hr-0000Yz-00@mail.btinternet.com>
References: <E0wz2hr-0000Yz-00@mail.btinternet.com>
Status: OR


    > [Dennis:] Even more important the lengths of the labels between 
    > figures have a very strong correlation with the lengths of the 
    > available spaces !       Now this can have only three
    > explanations :-
    >   A)  The figures were drawn without knowing where the
    >         labels would go ( or knowing the positions but not
    >         the lengths ).
    >   B)  The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
    >        lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
    >        for the total lengths.  This meant splitting the 243 symbols
    >       of Aries into two half months, similarly for the 228 of Taurus
    >       and giving a full third circle for Cancer ( 236 symbols ).
    >  C)  The figures were drawn later.
    > 
    > Now C) is extremely unlikely as the later herbs and pots in the
    > Pharmaceutical section were not given labels. Also B) gives
    > severe problems with Gemini as one very small space could not
    > be used, probably because the label was too long, and this would
    > throw out the later labels from their 'pre-prepared' slots.
    >  So - I strongly favour A) .  This, however, almost certainly implies
    > that labels are put in to fill the avaiable space ( I suspect this also
    > in other sections, but we all need to check this point )  and my
    > conclusion is that the text has no relation to the illustrations !
    
    > I will also admit that the Zodiac section could have
    > been drawn and text written in parallel by the same person, but this
    > would be very tricky to get right. 

I do not have the photocopies of the VMs (yet 8-).  But let me comment anyway:

  Just because one section had figures and text made in a certain order,
  it does not follow that the same order was followed in other sections.
  It is quite possible that the order depends on the nature of the 
  drawings.
  
  For instance, the herbal section has big plant drawings, whose shape
  and location on the page is rather fixed (stems have to be straight,
  etc.), but with large blank spaces; whereas the text is not tied to
  any particular location.  So, for that section, it makes sense to
  draw the plant first, and then write the text anywhere it would fit.
  
  In the astrological diagrams, however, the labels have to be placed
  in very specific positions with respect to the diagram. On the other
  hand, the geometry of the diagram can be broadly adjusted to make the text
  fit.  The right way to proceed would then be to sketch first the
  whole thing, diagram and labels, on a blackboard or a separate sheet
  of "paper"; erase and redraw and fiddle until everything fits
  together nicely; and then copy the whole thing into the book, with
  the right spacings and sizes.
  
  In this second scenario, it doesn't matter which was drawn first,
  labels or diagram.
  

  Another possibility to keep in mind is that the labels may well have
  been abbreviated so as to fit the available space.  We do that often 
  enough ourselves, e.g. when writing column headers in tables ---
  "Total", "Tot", etc.
  
Does this make sense?
  
    > Also B) gives severe problems with Gemini as one very
    > small space could not be used...

    > [Rene:] There is one nymph in Gemini without a label. I would
    > favour the idea that this was a simple oversight. There is
    > also one nymph without a star somewhere...

Perhaps the author felt that Gemini should be represented by TWO nymphs,
for some obscure reason? 8-)

    > (z)                     (s)                                (r)             
    >   (m)    (t)    (i)
    >         2 3 4  5  6  7 8 9 10 11 13 14 17 18    1st 2nd 3rd       
    > 
    > PSC    1 2  9 11 5 2                                   10 19          5.77 
    > 173  2
    > AR1           2  4    3 1        2   1   1       1       5 10         8.93 
    > 134  3 
    > AR2           1  3  7 1 2       1                         5  10        7.27
    >   109  -
    > TA1       1   1  4  4 3 1       1                         5  10        7.00
    >   105  7 

The alignment got all messed up. What font are you using?

--stolfi

--BAB16662.871619909/coruja.dcc.unicamp.br--


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Aug 16 10:29:01 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics and f75v
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:25:33 +0100
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>From       Denis         16 August 1997                                    
 


Rene says

<Unfortunately, the table at the bottom came to me
<with the lines wrapped and alignment lost so I could
<not really understand these.

Sorry about that  - I've made them clearer at the end of this
message.

He also says, 

  >  > B)  The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
  >  >     lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
  >  >     for the total lengths.

  >I like this one best. One may even assume that the figures
  >and the text were done at the same time.

 On reflection I have to agree with Rene, even though I have
reservations.  How to settle the question of fair copy versus
draft copy is clearly impotant, but unsettled.
 I intend to look carefully at all the pages/folios that have or
should have 'labels' to see what other evidence I can find.
I am a bit puzzled by the ten 'nymphs' on f75v which have
two rows of apparent labels above which do not have the
usual starter symbols to the 'words' and look more like
normal text. There is a strong restriction to 'words' of
lengths 3 to 6 and the shorter words are above each other
in the shortest gaps.  The texts are in Currier :-

Four 'nymphs' facing right then six facing left.

Texts 1 to 8

OFZO    8OFAE 8AE89 8AEFAR 8E9 OP9 8AR9 8AE89
2ARAE 8AROE 8AEZ8 4OFAE   OR9 ES9 8AE  4OPC8

Texts 9 and 10

RFAE  OEFS9
9FC89 OPOE9

There is no doubt about the 'words' which are divided by the
struts of an overhead canopy.  They come between the first
and second paragraphs on the page.

Now back to the rearranged Zodiac counts

(s)                           (z)
    PSC AR1 AR2 TA1 TA2 GEM CNC LEO VIR LIB SCO SGR 
 2                                                                         
  1 
 3    1                                          1      1            1    
4      1
 4    2                   1             6      1      6      1     5     4 
    9 
 5    9      2     1     1            7      2      7      5    11     7   
  7 
 6   11     4     3     4      4    7      4      5     14    11     7    
8 
 7     5            7    4      3    5      3      6       8      2     7  
  5    
 8     2     3     1    3      3    4      6      2       1      
 9            1     2    1      1           6      2       1 
10                                1          2       1 
11           2     1    1      2           2 
13           1                   1           1 
14           1
17                                             1
18           1 
(t) 173  134  109 105  123  168  236  178  186  158  156  157
(m) 5.8  8.9  7.3  7.0  8.2  5.8   8.1  5.9   6.2   5.3   5.2  5.2 
(i)     2    3     0     7      11   3     30   7     10    6      2     7 
(r)
 1   10    5    5     5      5     9     7     12    12   10   10   10 
 2   19   10  10   10    10    16   11    18    18    20   16   16 
 3                                      5   12                           4 
  4
(z)=Zodiac sign    (s)= label symbol lengths and counts
(m)=mean length of label symbol counts  (t)=total symbol count
for given Zodiac labels (r)=figure/nymph ring counts
(i)=no. of symbol i's in total (t)

 I hope this is clearer.            Denis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Aug 17 21:23:02 1997
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From: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:17:39 +0800
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics
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  > B)  The figures were drawn knowing the positions and
  >     lengths so giving peculiar circular structures to account
  >     for the total lengths.

  I like this one best. One may even assume that the figures
  and the text were done at the same time.

----

RF: I think this can be tested.  If I were drawing a divided
circle *before* adding nymphs and text, I'd draw the lines as
bisectors of the circle, ie every line would cross the whole
circle.  If I were doing it the other way round, I'd do the
lines as radii and they wouldn't line up across the circle.

My VMs copy is packed away, so could someone else look?

----

The nymphs were drawn from the inside ring outwards, with
the text added either immediately or afterwards. The text
is written to the right of the nymph. I think there are
two possibilities for the order: either starting near
00:00 and going clockwise or starting near 09:00 and going
against the clock, this from observing where the nymphs are
more cramped together (especially the inner circle of
Sagittarius).

----

RF: yes; I recall making the same observation.  I believe the
circles were filled in clockwise, one sector at a time.

----

Yours
Robert





From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 18 02:44:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:39:51 +0200
Subject: Re: VMs Zodiac Statistics
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Robert Firth wrote:

> If I were drawing a divided circle *before* adding
> nymphs and text, I'd draw the lines as bisectors of
> the circle, ie every line would cross the whole
> circle.  If I were doing it the other way round, I'd
> do the lines as radii and they wouldn't line up
> across the circle.

> My VMs copy is packed away, so could someone else look?

Well, there aren't any lines really (as I am  sure Robert
knows), but if we talk about the imaginary lines creating
the sectors in which the nymphs are drawn, I can confirm
that these do not line up at all for the different
'tracks' (to use a more contemporary term). All tracks
seem to have been done completely independently.  It's
not even clear where the starting point is, i.e. there
is not always a nymph at one 'starting position'. I'd have
to look again for a clock direction in which there is
always a gap.

Perhaps it's significant that on the 'text tracks', whenever
a start marker is present, it is near 10:30. Also, obviously,
the text is written clockwise.

Still, I would not take anything for granted. There are
some cases where text-only pages were almost certainly not
written line by line.

Cheers. Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Aug 18 10:31:45 1997
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:19:13 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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The well-known VMs web page
http://astro.uchicago.edu/home/web/duvernoi/voynich.html

is out of service.  At 
http://astro.uchicago.edu/home/web/duvernoi/

I found:

Hello, these pages have been removed by their author. They were no
longer serving their original purpose. Satire does appear to be
completely lost. Oh well. I shall prolly have a new page or two
(CV+basics) up on clotho.phys.psu.edu eventually. Do enjoy the rest of
the day. -MD

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug 20 12:17:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:08:48 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: MONKEY Business - Reduced Orthography
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I've thought that a reductionist orthography, one that often 
represents two or more phonemes with a single character, might explain 
the low entropies of Voynich text.  Therefore, I used BITRANS 
(available on Gabriel's Web page) to convert a Latin text, the 
beginning of 1 Kings from the Vulgate Bible, to a reduced orthography 
of 13 characters.  I made such substitutions as e -> i, f -> s, etc.  
Here is the BITRANS script: 
    
#=~
(comment) character set = a b c d i l m n p r s t u
<(comment)> <(comment)>
{(comment)} {(comment)}
#(comment) #(comment)
a  a
b  b
c  c
d  d
e  i
f  s
g  c
h  s
i  i
j  i
k  c
l  l
m  m
n  n
o  u
p  p
q  c
r  r
s  s
t  t
u  u
v  u
w  u
x  cs
y  i
z  s

    I then used Jacques Guy's MONKEY program, again available on 
Gabriel's Web page, to calculate the entropies before and after.  For 
comparison, I also include

    - part of 1 Kings in the King James English version,
    - a short story in modern English by Stephen Crane (less repetitious 
          than the King James Bible,
    - samples of Voynich Herbal A (voyas) and Herbal B (voyb) in FSG and 
          Frogguy. 

               #      Chars                                    
(h1-h2)        
File           of      in                                         / h2
Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2   *100
-----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------

1kings1.kjv     27    32000    4.755    4.022    3.068    0.953    23.7
crane.txt       27    32000    4.755    4.073    3.247    0.826    20.3
1kingsfz.lat    24    28925    4.585    4.002    3.308    0.694    17.3
1kingsfz.red    14    29066    3.807    3.452    2.998    0.454    13.2
voyas.fsg       24    10074    4.585    3.801    2.286    1.515    39.9 
voyb.fsg        24    14203    4.585    3.804    2.244    1.560    41.0 
voyas.guy       19    13539    4.248    3.710    1.951    1.759    47.4 
voyb.guy        19    17975    4.248    3.749    1.999    1.750    46.7 

    As you can see, the reduced orthography gives somewhat *higher* 
entropies than the original Latin.  So much for that idea.
    
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug 21 04:34:44 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, voynich@rand.org
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:27:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: MONKEY Business - Reduced Orthography
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Status: OR

On 20 Aug 97 at 11:08, Dennis wrote:

> I've thought that a reductionist orthography, one that often 
> represents two or more phonemes with a single character, might explain 
> the low entropies of Voynich text.
 [...]
> 
> 1kings1.kjv     27    32000    4.755    4.022    3.068    0.953    23.7
> crane.txt       27    32000    4.755    4.073    3.247    0.826    20.3
> 1kingsfz.lat    24    28925    4.585    4.002    3.308    0.694    17.3
> 1kingsfz.red    14    29066    3.807    3.452    2.998    0.454    13.2
> voyas.fsg       24    10074    4.585    3.801    2.286    1.515    39.9 
> voyb.fsg        24    14203    4.585    3.804    2.244    1.560    41.0 
> voyas.guy       19    13539    4.248    3.710    1.951    1.759    47.4 
> voyb.guy        19    17975    4.248    3.749    1.999    1.750    46.7 
> 
>     As you can see, the reduced orthography gives somewhat *higher* 
> entropies than the original Latin.  So much for that idea.

Shouldn't this mean *lower*? 3.807 vs. 4.585, etc.

Also note that this reduction may be very sensitive to the choice of 
characters to reduce.

Cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug 21 15:02:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:54:12 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: MONKEY Business - Reduced Orthography
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> On 20 Aug 97 at 11:08, Dennis wrote:
> >                                 h0       h1       h2       h1-h2  %drop
> > 1kings1.kjv     27    32000    4.755    4.022    3.068    0.953    23.7
> > crane.txt       27    32000    4.755    4.073    3.247    0.826    20.3
> > 1kingsfz.lat    24    28925    4.585    4.002    3.308    0.694    17.3
> > 1kingsfz.red    14    29066    3.807    3.452    2.998    0.454    13.2
> > voyas.fsg       24    10074    4.585    3.801    2.286    1.515    39.9
> > voyb.fsg        24    14203    4.585    3.804    2.244    1.560    41.0
> > voyas.guy       19    13539    4.248    3.710    1.951    1.759    47.4
> > voyb.guy        19    17975    4.248    3.749    1.999    1.750    46.7
> >
> >     As you can see, the reduced orthography gives somewhat *higher*
> > entropies than the original Latin.  So much for that idea.
> 
> Shouldn't this mean *lower*? 3.807 vs. 4.585, etc.

	You are correct about the absolute numbers.  However, the relative
entropy drop from 1st to 2nd level, 17.3% for regular Latin vs. 13.2%
for reduced Latin, is lower -- meaning that the "relative" entropy,
scaled somehow to the size of the character set, is indeed higher.  h0
is just the base-2 logarithm of the character set size, therefore the
entropy ought to be scaled to that somehow -- although I realize that
this whole issue is sticky and unresolved.

> Also note that this reduction may be very sensitive to the choice of
> characters to reduce.

	Yes!  Reducing a vowel would make a lot more difference than reducing a
seldom-used consonant, especially nearly-redundant characters like q or
x.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 26 16:26:02 1997
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From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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    My server has been having major problems... Is it just coincidence that
there isn't any VMs mail since Thursday?

            John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 26 17:35:18 1997
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Madness and the VMs

- Toresella and Lombroso
- Schizophrenic Language
- Outsider Art
- Thoughts
- References

*Toresella and Lombroso***********

    In his paper on alchemical herbals, Sergio Toresella writes:

    "Personally I think that the person who drew and wrote this herbal 
was profoundly impressed by the exhibition of some charlatan at the 
market place [ie. an alchemical herbal] and thought that he had 
discovered the secret of the world; a secret to entrust to a language 
and a cryptic script such as is often found in certain forms of 
insanity [47]."    

    "47.  The phenomenon of invented languages is very widespread and 
represents a fundamental aspect of some mental pathologies.  For an 
approach to the problem see: S. ARIETE, *Creativita`. La Sintesi 
magica*, Roma 1986.  A. BAUSANI, *Le Lingue inventate. Linguaggi 
artificiali -linguaggi segreti- linguaggi universali*, Roma, 1974. And 
the recent B. BUONARROTI & P. ALBANI, *Aga Mage'ra Difura. Dizionario 
delle lingue immaginarie*, Bologna 1994." 

    Jim Reeds has written:

    "Chuck Lee asks for the logic behind Toresella's conclusion that 
the VMS was 

> written by a madman, obsessed by sex.


    Clearly this is not based on his expert knowledge of manuscript 
herbals, but instead on his common sense.  He mentioned similarities 
with exhibits he has seen in the Lombroso collection in Turin of the 
obsessive artistic and literary products of the schizophrenic, which 
characteristically display the outward form of communication or 
representation, often of some complex private system, but which on 
closer analysis show meaningless content, scribbled detail, 
repetitious drivel, what have you." 

and

"Lombroso was the late 19th century anthropologist who thought that 
there was such a thing as criminal body features; ear lobes were an 
especially valuable sign of criminality (or its opposite; I forget 
which) [ie. phrenology; some of Lombroso's work is now considered 
crankery, some of it pioneering criminal science].  Toresella told me 
he was also interested in insanity and had built up a large collection 
of art works produced by asylum inmates."  

    I found a book which talks about Lombroso's work: MacGregor, John 
M.; *The Discovery of the Art of the Insane.*  He says that Lombroso's 
collection is now housed at the Museo di Antropologia criminale at the 
University of Turin med school.  See ref's for the address.  Lombroso 
published a book called *The Man of Genius* (London, 1891) that showed 
many items from his collection.  The MacGregor book shows several 
plates from The Man of Genius, as well as other outsider art by asylum 
inmates that resembles the VMs to varying degrees.  

    The following pic's make clear where Toresella got his idea that 
the VMs was written by "a madman obsessed with sex."  

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/lb1.gif

    lb1.gif - 6.10.  Ideo-phonetic writings (top); carved wooden 
figure by "A.T." (bottom), from Lombrose, *Man of Genius*, plate 10.  

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/lb2.gif

    lb2.gif - 6.8.  Drawings of an "erotomaniac," the Lombroso 
Collection, Museo di antropologia criminale, Turin, from Lombrose, 
*Man of Genius*, plate 15.

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/lb3.gif

    lb3.gif - 6.9  "Self-portrait of a megalomaniac, naked, among 
women, ejecting worlds," from Lombrose, *Man of Genius*, plate 14.


**Schizophrenic Language**************

    At the Kooks Museum, I found a sample of schizophrenic language.
In the Schizophrenic Wing, there is a transcript of flyers by Francis
E. Dec, containing two Rants:

Kooks Museum
http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/index.html
Schizophrenic Wing
Francis E. Dec, Esquire
Transcripts of flyers

    Here's an excerpt from Rant #2:

    "Computer God computerized brain thinking sealed robot operating 
arm surgery cabinet machine removal of most of the frontal command 
lobe of the brain, gradually, during lifetime and overnight in all 
insane asylums after Computer God kosher bosher one month probation 
period creating helpless, hopeless Computer God Frankenstein Earphone 
Radio parroting puppet brainless slaves, resulting in millions of 
hopeless helpless homeless derelicts in all Jerusalem, U.S.A. cities 
and Soviet slave work camps. Not only the hangman rope deadly gangster 
parroting puppet scum-on-top know this top medical secret, even worse, 
deadly gangster Jew disease from deaf Ronnie Reagan to U.S.S.R. 
Gorbachev know this oy vay Computer God Containment Policy top secret. 
Eventual brain lobotomization of the entire world population for the 
Worldwide Deadly Gangster Communist Computer God overall plan, an 
ideal worldwide population of light-skinned, low hopeless and helpless 
Jew-mulattos, the communist black wave of the future." 

        I've looked briefly at one of these works, *Creativity* by
Silvano
Arieti, that Toresella cites.  He talks about the distorted language 
of schizophrenics but not other language phenomena.  The samples and 
discussion of schizophrenic talk in *Creativity* by Silvano Arieti 
resemble this, in repeated but disconnected ideas, alliteration, etc. 

    I ran MONKEY on the two Rants and compared the results with
examples of normal English text:

                                                  (h2-h1)
File          Ch   File                              /h1
Name          Set  Size     h0      h1      h2      *100

schizo.txt    27   12967   4.755   4.182   3.428   18.0
genesis.kjv   27   32000   4.755   3.969   3.020   23.9
joshua.kjv    27   32000   4.755   4.012   3.029   24.5
acts.kjv      27   32000   4.755   4.041   3.137   22.4
fbacon1.elz   27   32000   4.755   4.048   3.220   20.4
fbacon2.elz   27   32000   4.755   4.042   3.214   20.5
fbacon3.elz   27   32000   4.755   4.066   3.229   20.6
litany1.txt   26    9492   4.700   4.071   3.103   23.8
iso14cat.txt  27    6696   4.755   4.076   3.137   23.0
crane.txt     27   32000   4.755   4.073   3.247   20.3
cajun.txt     27   27363   4.755   4.124   3.297   20.1
chicken.txt   27   18461   4.755   4.131   3.193   22.7

schizo.txt            = Rants by a schizophrenic
genesis, joshua, acts = Bible, King James Version
fbacon1/2/3           = Essays by Sir Francis Bacon
litany1.txt           = Roman Catholic litany (modern English)
iso14cat.txt          = catalog of ISO 14000 standards
crane.txt             = short story by Stephen Crane
cajun, chicken        = food recipes

    As you can see, the second-order entropy of the schizophrenic rants 
is definitely *higher* than any of the ordinary texts.  So the nature 
of the text itself would not by itself explain the puzzling nature of 
VMs text. 


*Outsider Art************

    Outsider art ("art brut" in French) is idiosyncratic art, often 
using trash as material, created by persons on the margin of society, 
such as mental patients or homeless persons. MacGregor's book, of 
course, treats outsider art.  

    The outsider art that most reminds me of the VMs in its complexity 
and in the presence of an unknown script is: 

http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/hampton.html

    The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations Millenium General
Assembly

    "James Hampton was not your ordinary janitor, for it is not your 
ordinary janitor who is contracted by the Almighty to build his throne 
room. Starting in 1950, and working up to his death in 1964, Hampton, 
using old furniture, cardboard tubes, lightbulbs, lamps, several 
square miles of gold and aluminum foil and countless other geegaws, 
assumbled an opulant shrine in a rented garage in a run-down 
neighborhood of Washington, D.C. The shrine contains in the area of 
100 separate objects and at the time of Hampton's death was 
incomplete. The piece gives the impression of a Greek Orthodox votary 
warehouse run by an impoverished bishop on acid. Throughout the myriad 
foil-encrusted oddments can be seen several framed documents inscribed 
in some unknown angelic tongue. Upon his death, Hampton's heirs wanted 
nothing to do with his life's work and it was bought up by the 
National Collection of Fine Arts..." 

    "God was a frequent visitor at the garage, where Hampton worked 
for up to six hours a night after finishing his janitorial duties. In 
addition to supervising work on the Throne, God taught Hampton an 
intriguing script. A small notebook was found there, which is filled 
with the script; at the bottom of each page, is written, in English, 
"Revelation," and the author is given as "Saint James." The same 
script was also found on the objects surrounding the Throne, usually 
preceded by an English word or phrase, possibly a translation." 

    Some outsider art links:

Intuit: The Center for Intuitive and Outsider Art
http://outsider.art.org/


*Thoughts*

    The fact that outsider art resembles the VMs somewhat may mean 
that the VMs is visionary art.  The drawings of William Blake and 
Hildegarde of Bingen also resemble the VMs to some extent.  

Drawings by Hildegard of Bingen (sometimes resemble VMs images)
http://www.millersv.edu/~english/homepage/duncan/medfem/hildeg.html
  
    Jim Reeds made the IMHO very interesting observation:

    "I think: (1) the VMS was written in Europe by a literate 
European, and (2) if it has a plain text, it is in a widely used 
European language such as Latin or Italian. Why by a "literate 
European"? Because the author clearly knows the ordinary Latin 
alphabet, a distorted and elaborated version of which forms the VMS 
character set. If he usually only wrote in Arabic or Hebrew, say, his 
letters would not look  the way they do. I suppose (3) the author must 
had had some contact with cryptography, which in 1470 (to make up a 
date) meant he had some contact with some potentate's secretary. On 
the negative side: (4) the book was not written by a non-European, (5) 
was not written in a non-European language, and (6), on the grounds of 
anachronism, was not written in a deliberately invented artificial 
language (but I don't mean to rule out a kind of spontaneously 
generated glossolalic sort of writing, or "outsider" art" writing, 
etc)." 

    Thus the VMs' author might have been a diplomatic secretary with a 
secret obsession -- like James Hampton.  Perhaps he wrote the A and B 
sections at different times.  Perhaps the B section came first, when 
he was inexperienced with his system. 

    The text might be meaningless glossalalia.  It might be in a 
private idiolect.  I remember reading in *Psychology Today* a long 
time ago about the study of the private idiolect of two identical 
twins.  It was based on normal languages known to them.  Thus a 
private idiolect might be difficult but not impossible to decipher.  
Of course, the text might be a normal language in a verbose cipher. 

    It would be interesting to know what the books by BAUSANI and 
BUONARROTI & ALBANI that Toresella cites have to say. 

    I think that the madness hypothesis is quite tenable, but I don't
know
whether it's the best hypothesis or not.

*References**************

    Toresella's ref's

    S. ARIETE, *Creativita`. La Sintesi magica*, Roma 1986.  A. BAUSANI,
*Le Lingue inventate. Linguaggi artificiali -linguaggi segreti-
linguaggi universali*, 
Roma, 1974. And the recent B. BUONARROTI & P. ALBANI, *Aga Mage'ra
Difura. 
Dizionario delle lingue immaginarie*, Bologna 1994."

    [The US Library of Congress catalog has:
    Arieti, Silvano.  Creativity : the magic synthesis / New York :
Basic Books, c1976.  xv, 448 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.  LC CALL NUMBER: BF408
.A64
    The LOC has the Italian version of Buonarroti & Albani but doesn't
have Bausani. ]

    MacGregor, John M.; *The Discovery of the Art of the Insane.*  
(Princeton University Press, Princeton NJ, c1989.) 
ISBN 0-691-04071-0.  

At this Web site, 
http://www.medfarm.unito.it/campus/guida/diistubi.html  

I found:

Istituto di Scienze Medico Forensi con annesso
Museo di Antropologia Criminale
C.so G. Galilei, 22   10126 - Torino
Tel. 667.03.92 - 696.37.93     Telefax 663.55.76
C.so Montevecchio, 38    Tel. 53.56.70
Direttore: Prof. Mario PORTIGLIATTI BARBOS

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug 27 03:02:02 1997
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First, to John Grove: yes it seems that these were the first posts
in quite a while.

Jacques was not too impressed with the similarity
of the schizophrenic gifs with the VMs illustrations,
and I would tend to agree. However, we may safely
assume that Toresella has seen many, many more
examples, on which he based his comments.

> A most interesting site. I was fascinated by this text.
> Not at all like the glossolalia I have seen.

Errrm, in computer-readable form perhaps?

>>     As you can see, the second-order entropy of the schizophrenic rants
>> is definitely *higher* than any of the ordinary texts.

> I don't know if that is very significant. But *do* a
> computation of the *word* entropy, not character entropy.
> You will be surprised.

Certainly, the sample is a bit smallish, but this will be
worse for the word entropy.
And the other reason for perhaps not being too significant
is the fact that we're comparing apples and oranges.
We know what the different characters are in the schizo
text, but there's some doubt about the VMs text.

Still:
the VMs h2 is way off and I have personally not yet been
convinced by any explanation for that.
What's more, the VMs word entropy seems to be rather normal.
Has anyone ever done a 'word h2'. If the sample is not too
small, we should expect this to be rather low compared with
plain texts of similar length and word entropy (shoud there
be any).

FWIW,
      Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug 27 05:59:02 1997
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    > [Dennis:] *Thoughts*
    > 
    > The fact that outsider art resembles the VMs somewhat may mean 
    > that the VMs is visionary art.

There may be some truth to the "madness" theory.  The VMs is not a 
"perfectly ordinary" piece of work, so its author is likely to have been
an eccentric fellow, at the very least.  

But the same can be said about many of the best works of mankind.  The
line between madness and genius is rather blurry.  John Dee (who
apparently owned the VMs at some point) would be an example of someone
standing rather close to that line.  Indeed, many of mankind's best
"geniuses" were "crazy" to some extent.  Pythagoras, Bacon, Leonardo,
Pascal, Newton--- all were a bit "weird", a little antisocial,
somewhat obsessed with some inner mystic world.

After all, only an "abnormal" person would spend most of his time
scribbling equations, boiling rocks in acid, growing molds, or
whatever.  A "normal" person would rather be making politics at court,
playing the stock market, or hanging out with friends at the tavern.

So, the question is not *whether* the author was crazy, but 
*how much* crazy he was...

(There is a short story by Stanislaw Lem about a fellow whose lifetime
project was to find a "first class" genius. (Einstein, in his scheme,
would be merely "third class".)  Perhaps the VMs author would fit the
bill...)

    > The drawings of William Blake and Hildegarde of Bingen also
    > resemble the VMs to some extent.
    > 
    > Drawings by Hildegard of Bingen (sometimes resemble VMs images)
    > http://www.millersv.edu/~english/homepage/duncan/medfem/hildeg.html

But neither of them could be dismissed as "mad".

(By the way, it seems that Hildegard's most puzzling "mystic" drawings
have a rather pedestrian explanation. Their reddish, jagged, expanding
"halos", filled with concentric wavy lines, are accurate renderings of
the visual disturbances that regularly precede a migraine attack.  The
angels and other recognizable figures would then be mere attempts to
impose some religious meaning onto those shapeless blobs of light.)

    > Here's an excerpt from {Francis Dec's] Rant #2:
    >    
    >   "Computer God computerized brain thinking sealed robot
    >   operating arm surgery cabinet machine removal of most of the
    >   frontal command lobe of the brain, gradually, during lifetime
    >   and overnight in all insane asylums after Computer God kosher
    >   bosher one month probation period creating helpless, hopeless
    >   Computer God Frankenstein Earphone Radio parroting puppet
    >   brainless slaves, resulting in millions [...]
    
Hmmm... I suppose the difference between Francis Dec and James Joyce
is that Joyce's neighbors didn't call the asylum until it was too late.
8-)

More seriously: while isolated parts of the VMs may look a bit like
this obsessive drivel, the book as a whole does not.  The size and
material quality of the book, its division into well-defined sections,
each with a text and drawing style that seems appropriate to the
subject matter---all this does not seem to be the work of a mind
gone completely bananas.  

Eccentric, yes; obsessed by sex, perhaps; crackpot, quite likely---but
still sane enough to be let out unchained.  

Like, say, a typical university professor.

    > [quoting Jim reeds:] I suppose (3) the author must 
    > had had some contact with cryptography, which in 1470 (to make up a 
    > date) meant he had some contact with some potentate's secretary.
    
I don't think we can conclude that much, until we figure out what
cryptoghraphic method (if any) he used.  

The concept of code writing surely was known to any literate person.
In fact, it seems that most Latin manuscripts from that time made
heavy use of abbreviations, which (apart from the intent) can be seen
as a rudimentary form of crytography.
    
    > (4) the book was not written by a non-European, (5) was not
    > written in a non-European language
    
Again, I don't think we can be sure.  Barely a century after Columbus,
converted Maxican and Peruvian indians were writing Western-looking
books, using Latin letters, in their own language.

The problem with "circumstantial" (stylistic, goegraphic, historical)
evidence is that the VMs is not a "random" book, but one that has been
picked out for being quite strange and atypical.  Thus, we can't well
use probabilistic reasoning with it.  The VMs is an unlikely book by
an unlikely author; it doesn't seem meaningful to ask what language or
code he is "most likely" to have used...

    > Thus the VMs' author might have been a diplomatic secretary with a 
    > secret obsession -- like James Hampton.  Perhaps he wrote the A and B 
    > sections at different times.  Perhaps the B section came first, when 
    > he was inexperienced with his system. 

OK, here is yet another theory: the VMs at Beinecke is not the original
book, but rather a copy, made by two or more scribes who could not
themselves understand it.

For one possible scenario, imagine John Dee seeing the original VMs in
the hands of some fellow quack. Impressed by the book, but unable to
buy it, he would have arranged for a copy to be made.

Note that the interleaving of the A and B hands, seen in some
sections, strongly suggests that the VMs we have is a scribal copy.
By the way, this interleaving is hard to explain under the
"single person, different times" theory.

The "ignorant scribe" theory would explain the reported lack of
corrections in the VMs. A person who copies something he doesn't
understand will not notice a mistake by just looking at what he wrote.
For that, he must compare the two texts, word by word; wich may take
even longer than the transcription itself.  Obviously, a hired scribe
would not do such proofreading, unless the client was very
fastidious---and willing to pay for the extra work.

Not to mention that ugly corrections would diminish the "coffee table"
value of the book.

By the way, the modern transcriptions of the VMs by Pedersen,
Friedman, Currier, &co are good models for this sort of thing.
Friedman's and Currier's differ in more than one symbol every 10
words---and they were done by people who presumably cared about
accuracy. I wouldn't expect a more accurate transcription from a
medieval scribe.

This "ignorant scribe" theory could also explain the repetitions,
internal inconsistencies, and letter substitutions seen in the VMs.
They look just like the sort of mistakes one would make when copying
an unknown script.  To me, the arabic script is just a bunch of
nondescript squiggles and dots; if I had to copy some arabic text, I
would probably turn "this thin thing that" into "thic thic thic y
thcih", all the time...

Finally, the "ignorant scribe" theory would also explain the reported
language differences between the two hands (as each scribe developed
his own "reading" of the original script.)

On the other hand, even an ignorant scribe would preserve much of the
"natural language" feel we see in the VMs text.  Which, by the way, is
a strong argument against it being meaningless pseudo-text, or
glossolalia.  

--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Aug 26 23:56:16 1997
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:18:51 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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I just took a look at this picture on Dennis's site: 
> http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/lb1.gif

The "face" glyphs reminded me very much of the Mayan
glyphs in the Chilam Balam of Chumayel.

 
> http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/lb2.gif

As for lb2.gif, well, what's the fuss? The drawings
reminded me all at once of Goya's caprichos, of Max
und Moritz, and of Hieronymus Bosch. 
 
> http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/lb3.gif

lb3.gif I would have taken for an alchemical illustration
had I not been told it was the "Self-portrait of a megalomaniac, 
naked, among women, ejecting worlds,"
> **Schizophrenic Language**************
 
>     "Computer God computerized brain thinking sealed robot operating
> arm surgery cabinet machine removal of most of the frontal command
> lobe of the brain, gradually, during lifetime and overnight in all

A most interesting site. I was fascinated by this text. Not at all
like the glossolalia I have seen.

                                                   (h2-h1)
> File          Ch   File                              /h1
> Name          Set  Size     h0      h1      h2      *100
 
> schizo.txt    27   12967   4.755   4.182   3.428   18.0
> genesis.kjv   27   32000   4.755   3.969   3.020   23.9
 
 
>     As you can see, the second-order entropy of the schizophrenic rants
> is definitely *higher* than any of the ordinary texts.

I don't know if that is very significant. But *do* a computation
of the *word* entropy, not character entropy. You will be surprised.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Aug 27 17:14:04 1997
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    Well, for my two cents worth...

     Jorge Stolfi wrote:   OK, here is yet another theory: the VMs at
Beinecke is not the original

> book, but rather a copy, made by two or more scribes who could not
> themselves understand it.
>

     The scenario presented by Jorge that if he were to copy Arabic, a
number of the words would look similar. What if he didn't know that the
language was written right to left and copied it backwards? What if, What
if... Well, if it is a copy of another document or a more ancient writing
originally found in an archeological dig in the 15th century, we'll never
know for sure - because if this isn't the original - the original no longer
exists.

      I once raised the question of a 3D plate - as in a saucer. The
'copyist' then would have had a 3D object laying in front of him on which
one section sagged to reveal a portion of the text that was inscribed along
the edge.  It's perhaps stretching one's imagination too far, but I
couldn't think of any other explanation for the numerous dots seemingly
expanding into nine o's and a few readable characters before once again
decreasing from view to become just dots again. (The central plate on 69 or
is it 70?)

      As for the pictures - very interesting, but they seem a lot more
artistic than purposeful. That is, I think that the pictures in the VMs
appear more purposeful than artistic. Not that I'm saying artists are all
crazy and don't have a purpose! 8-)

        Well, that's about two cents worth...                John.



From reeds Wed Aug 27 20:16:06 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:16:06 -0400
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I hesitate to say it, but I have a xerox copy of Bausani's book "Le lingue
inventate".  I was able to get the book on interlibrary loan w/o any trouble.

There is also the Stuttgart edition, titled "Geheim- und universalshachen:
entwicklung und typologie", which I have not seen.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug 28 10:23:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 28 Aug 97 at 9:02, Dennis wrote:
>     I ran word entropies like Jacques suggests: 
> 
>              #      #                                        (h1-h2)
>             diff.   total                                     /h1
> File       words    words    h0       h1       h2      h1-h2  *100
> 
> genesis.txt   2203  32000  11.10525  8.34695  4.40197  3.945  47.3
> genesis.txt    377   2128   8.55842  6.81991  2.67962  4.140  60.7
> 
> schizo.txt     904   2050   9.82018  8.85279  1.75196  7.101  80.2

Is it possible to get the figures for samples with the "same number 
of different words"?

Now that we're in this area, let me point to the relationship between 
vocabulary and corpus size (and Zipf's law!) that G. Turner (also 
a member of the list) has been doing some work on:

http://www.btinternet.com/~g.r.turner/ZipfDoc.htm

particularly Chen & Leimkuhler's relationship described in that 
site may be of relevance to this problem.

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug 28 10:05:03 1997
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Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> I just took a look at this picture on Dennis's site:
> > http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/lb1.gif
> 
> The "face" glyphs reminded me very much of the Mayan
> glyphs in the Chilam Balam of Chumayel.

	There are some other Lombroso images that look even more like 
Mayan glyphs.  He said they had "archaic" features.

> As for lb2.gif, well, what's the fuss? The drawings
> reminded me all at once of Goya's caprichos, of Max
> und Moritz, and of Hieronymus Bosch.

    I agree that the Lombroso images only look Voynich-like in the 
most general sense.  They're mainly of interest in showing where 
Toresella got his ideas.  The MacGregor book had much more art by 
asylum inmates and it was comparable.  Some of the pictures were 
fantastic and combines text and graphics, but that's as close as it 
got to the VMs.  I think the "madness" hypothesis is only one among 
many; it's not the prefered one. 
    
> lb3.gif I would have taken for an alchemical illustration
> had I not been told it was the "Self-portrait of a megalomaniac,
> naked, among women, ejecting worlds,"

	Interesting!!  I didn't think of alchemical images so much as
pretentious Victorian illustrations...

> A most interesting site. I was fascinated by this text. Not at all
> like the glossolalia I have seen.

    Glossalalia by itself might have the low entropies of Voynichese.  
(I've looked for computer transcriptions of glossalalia on the Web and 
have found none.  Moonhawk say he doesn't have any either.)  However, 
the schizophrenic rant has an entropy that is higher (perhaps not 
significantly) than that of normal English text.  Thus that factor by 
itself would not explain Voynichese.
                                                      (h2-h1)
> > File          Ch   File                              /h1
> > Name          Set  Size     h0      h1      h2      *100
> 
> > schizo.txt    27   12967   4.755   4.182   3.428   18.0
> > genesis.kjv   27   32000   4.755   3.969   3.020   23.9
> 
> 
> >     As you can see, the second-order entropy of the schizophrenic rants
> > is definitely *higher* than any of the ordinary texts.
> 
> I don't know if that is very significant. But *do* a computation
> of the *word* entropy, not character entropy. You will be surprised.

	The difference between them may not be significant, but the
characteristics of schizophrenic speech obviously would not account for
the low entropy of Voynich text.  

    I ran word entropies like Jacques suggests: 

             #      #                                        (h1-h2)
            diff.   total                                     /h1
File       words    words    h0       h1       h2      h1-h2  *100

genesis.txt   2203  32000  11.10525  8.34695  4.40197  3.945  47.3
genesis.txt    377   2128   8.55842  6.81991  2.67962  4.140  60.7

schizo.txt     904   2050   9.82018  8.85279  1.75196  7.101  80.2
    
    The schizophrenic ran long chains of adjectives and nouns together 
and had long, run-on sentences.  He also used a lot more different 
words in a passage of similar size.  I'm not used to looking at word 
entropies.  Also note how much difference the sample size makes!
    
    Toresella obviously had other things in mind as well as this when 
he mentioned a cryptic script associated with madness.  Is there 
anything that looks interesting in the Bausani book?  As I said, 
Arieti talked about schizophrenic speech, but I didn't see anything 
about cryptic languages or scripts in his book.  
    
    Here's an article on James Hampton.  I'd be most interested in 
getting a copy.
    
    James L. Foy and James P. McMurrer, "James Hampton, Artist and 
Visionary," Psychiatry and Art 4 (1975): 64-75.  
    
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Aug 28 12:38:03 1997
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> Is it possible to get the figures for samples with the "same number
> of different words"?

	By trial and error I adjusted the Genesis sample size:

             #      #                                        (h1-h2)
            diff.   total                                     /h1
File       words    words    h0       h1       h2      h1-h2  *100

genesis.txt   2203  32000  11.10525  8.34695  4.40197  3.945  47.3
genesis.txt    377   2128   8.55842  6.81991  2.67962  4.140  60.7
genesis.txt    902   7320   9.81698  7.47431  3.44893  4.025  53.9


schizo.txt     904   2050   9.82018  8.85279  1.75196  7.101  80.2
    
	The differences with the schizo.txt are still noticeable...

> Now that we're in this area, let me point to the relationship between
> vocabulary and corpus size (and Zipf's law!) that G. Turner (also
> a member of the list) has been doing some work on:
> 
> http://www.btinternet.com/~g.r.turner/ZipfDoc.htm

	I haven't yet been able to read this at length.

	Engineers used to have a saying: "Anything gives a straight line if you
plot it on log-log paper."  If I understand correctly, that means that
everything follows Zipf's Law!  :-)

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug 29 16:56:03 1997
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
> OK, here is yet another theory: the VMs at Beinecke is not the original
> book, but rather a copy, made by two or more scribes who could not
> themselves understand it.
> 
> For one possible scenario, imagine John Dee seeing the original VMs in
> the hands of some fellow quack. Impressed by the book, but unable to
> buy it, he would have arranged for a copy to be made.
> 
> Note that the interleaving of the A and B hands, seen in some
> sections, strongly suggests that the VMs we have is a scribal copy.
> By the way, this interleaving is hard to explain under the
> "single person, different times" theory.
> 
> The "ignorant scribe" theory would explain the reported lack of
> corrections in the VMs. A person who copies something he doesn't
> understand will not notice a mistake by just looking at what he wrote.
> For that, he must compare the two texts, word by word; wich may take
> even longer than the transcription itself.  Obviously, a hired scribe
> would not do such proofreading, unless the client was very
> fastidious---and willing to pay for the extra work.
> 
> Not to mention that ugly corrections would diminish the "coffee table"
> value of the book.
> 
> By the way, the modern transcriptions of the VMs by Pedersen,
> Friedman, Currier, &co are good models for this sort of thing.
> Friedman's and Currier's differ in more than one symbol every 10
> words---and they were done by people who presumably cared about
> accuracy. I wouldn't expect a more accurate transcription from a
> medieval scribe.
> 
> This "ignorant scribe" theory could also explain the repetitions,
> internal inconsistencies, and letter substitutions seen in the VMs.
> They look just like the sort of mistakes one would make when copying
> an unknown script.  To me, the arabic script is just a bunch of
> nondescript squiggles and dots; if I had to copy some arabic text, I
> would probably turn "this thin thing that" into "thic thic thic y
> thcih", all the time...
> 
> Finally, the "ignorant scribe" theory would also explain the reported
> language differences between the two hands (as each scribe developed
> his own "reading" of the original script.)
> 
> On the other hand, even an ignorant scribe would preserve much of the
> "natural language" feel we see in the VMs text.  Which, by the way, is
> a strong argument against it being meaningless pseudo-text, or
> glossolalia.

	This is quite an interesting idea!  

	Here's one thing against it that I see.  The Voynich script is written
in an easy, flowing manner.  I think it must have been a fair copy.  I
also think that the elaborate ligatures in the VMs are artistic
embellishments.  Both of these argue that the scribe(s) was/were quite
fluent in the script and added embellishments of their own. That would
make it unlikely that he/they was/were ignorant of the script's
meaning.  

	I have never known what to think of the lack of corrections.  Is this
typical or atypical of medieval Ms.?  I know that spelling in those
times was no where near as regular as it is now.  That would make
corrections less necessary.  

	FWIW.  I once saw a scroll of the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead in
hieroglyphic script.  It was about 20 ft/ 6 m long.  The display case
noted that there was not a single correction in the text.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Aug 29 18:56:02 1997
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Subject: Re: Ignorant Scribe Theory
To: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:54:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
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> 	I have never known what to think of the lack of corrections.  Is this
> typical or atypical of medieval Ms.?  I know that spelling in those
> times was no where near as regular as it is now.  That would make
> corrections less necessary.  
> 
> 	FWIW.  I once saw a scroll of the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead in
> hieroglyphic script.  It was about 20 ft/ 6 m long.  The display case
> noted that there was not a single correction in the text.

The BotD was, of course, written down by scribes. I am not sure if that
sort of document was known to the scribe by heart or if it was copied from
another scroll. Anyone better with ancient Egyptian info?

What if the people writing the VMs had the text memorized? This might
explain why the pictures were drawn first, since they would know
approximately how long each section was, they would know how to arrange the
drawings.

This is assuming the drawings have any relation to the text.
-Adams Douglas

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Aug 31 12:38:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:06:59 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Ignorant Scribe Theory
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>Jorge Stolfi wrote:
>>
>> OK, here is yet another theory: the VMs at Beinecke is not the original
>> book, but rather a copy, made by two or more scribes who could not
>> themselves understand it.
>>
>> For one possible scenario, imagine John Dee seeing the original VMs in
>> the hands of some fellow quack. Impressed by the book, but unable to
>> buy it, he would have arranged for a copy to be made.
>>
>> Note that the interleaving of the A and B hands, seen in some
>> sections, strongly suggests that the VMs we have is a scribal copy.
>> By the way, this interleaving is hard to explain under the
>> "single person, different times" theory.
>>
>> The "ignorant scribe" theory would explain the reported lack of
>> corrections in the VMs. A person who copies something he doesn't
>> understand will not notice a mistake by just looking at what he wrote.
>> For that, he must compare the two texts, word by word; wich may take
>> even longer than the transcription itself.  Obviously, a hired scribe
>> would not do such proofreading, unless the client was very
>> fastidious---and willing to pay for the extra work.
>>
>> Not to mention that ugly corrections would diminish the "coffee table"
>> value of the book.


There also exists the possibility that the details of the script were worked
out in rough draft on a separate worksheet, and once text was checked and
corrections made, the final work was carefully transferred to the Voynich
pages.  This would certainly account for the linear detail of the hand A
pages.

Hand B pages are less orderly than hand A pages, but seeing that I cannot
find any differences in actual calligraphy between hand A and hand B, I can
only assume that these pages were written by the same person, only at
different times.  This logically places hand A pages as the first to be
transcribed.

If these are both by the same author, there can be many reasons for the
differences.  The text could have been written over a long period of time,
and the age of the author may show in his handy work as time progresses.
He/she could also have become less detail oriented as time progressed, or in
the case of Anthony Ascham, progressive alcoholism may have taken its toll.

I see nothing that looks like corrections in hand A, but in hand B there are
characters 'squeezed' in on pages as if they were forgotten, and other
characters somewhat out of shape, as if attempts were made to correct them.
These may or may not be corrections, and we will know for sure only when the
pages have been deciphered.

The question of interleaving has several possible - and plausible -
explanations, the sum of which is limited only by the imagination.  Which
answer would be correct waits to be seen.

A careful examination of the calligraphy can finally answer the question of
whether
or not there was more than one author, which would give us one more solid
fact to add to the collection.  Unfortunately, the apparent lack of
corrections would not necessarily mean that the scribe was copying from an
original text.  He/she could be transcribing from worksheets of his/her own
creation.

I take some exception to any reference of Dr. John Dee as a 'quack'.  It
would take too much time to write a complete list of Dee's accomplishments
on this page, but rest assured he was at the forefront of the educated world
in his own time.  Even his questionable angelic works may well prove to be
something entirely different from what they appear.



Regards,   Rayman




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Aug 31 22:08:02 1997
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id like to be on your mailing list

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep  3 11:41:21 1997
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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:35:19 +0200
Subject: Re: Madness and the VMs
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    I like most of Stolfi's comments about the mental state
    of the VMs author, especially:

> The VMs is not a "perfectly ordinary" piece of work, so its
> author is likely to have been an eccentric fellow, at the very
> least.

> John Dee (who apparently owned the VMs at some point) would
> be an example of someone standing rather close to that line.
> Indeed, many of mankind's best "geniuses" were "crazy" to some
> extent.  Pythagoras, Bacon, Leonardo, Pascal, Newton--- all
> were a bit "weird", a little antisocial, somewhat obsessed with
> some inner mystic world.

I.e. not necessarily 'mad', but, as above, eccentric fellows at the
very least.

> So, the question is not *whether* the author was crazy, but
> *how much* crazy he was...

I would venture to say:
most probably a bit more than the likes of Bacon and Albertus,
probably also more than Agrippa and Edward Kelly...
(Obviously, eccentricity is not measureable on a linear scale)

> More seriously: while isolated parts of the VMs may look a bit like
> this obsessive drivel, the book as a whole does not.

I would say: some sections do not. The most sensible ones are the
early herbal section (where the drawings are nicer) and the
stars/recipes section at the end). The most conspicuous portion
of the book, the biological section taints the work as a whole
(IHMO of course).

> The size and material quality of the book,

The size is rather standard but the material seems good.

> its division into well-defined sections, each with a text and
> drawing style that seems appropriate to the subject matter---all
> this does not seem to be the work of a mind gone completely bananas.

Perhaps a bit too much praise, but this is again a very subjective
area. The quality of the herbal drawings varies greatly. Some of the
herbal pictures are near the end because they happen to be on
non-standard sized pages. The degradation of quality in the zodiac
pages is quite steep. Maybe the writer just got in a hurry to
finish it.

> Eccentric, yes; obsessed by sex, perhaps; crackpot, quite
> likely---but still sane enough to be let out unchained.

Instead of sex: the female nude. Yes.

    >> [quoting Jim reeds:] I suppose (3) the author must
    >> had had some contact with cryptography, which in 1470 (to make up a
    >> date) meant he had some contact with some potentate's secretary.

> I don't think we can conclude that much, until we figure out what
> cryptoghraphic method (if any) he used.

That was Jim's point: the alphabet shows that he may very well have
seen diplomatic code messages in, say, 1470.

    >> (4) the book was not written by a non-European, (5) was not
    >> written in a non-European language

> Again, I don't think we can be sure.
I like (4) but we have to consider the option (not the most likely
one though) that it's a copy by a European of something else.
(5) seems to be less 'deduced' from anything, but more a matter
of common sense. Right now I don't remember if Semitic languages
are indo-european or not, but if not I would add the small possibility
that the original text was in one of these languages.

>Barely a century after Columbus, converted Maxican and Peruvian
>indians were writing Western-looking books, using Latin letters,
>in their own language.

But this is really a bit too late. Now Peter of Abano talking
with the imprisoned Marco Polo about Persia...

> The problem with "circumstantial" (stylistic, goegraphic, historical)
> evidence is that the VMs is not a "random" book, but one that has been
> picked out for being quite strange and atypical.  Thus, we can't well
> use probabilistic reasoning with it.  The VMs is an unlikely book by
> an unlikely author; it doesn't seem meaningful to ask what language or
> code he is "most likely" to have used...

We must expect the unlikely, but still some general odds may apply.
Any one of the major scientific languages of the time would have to be
considered a better candidate. But this should not be taken for granted.

> OK, here is yet another theory: the VMs at Beinecke is not the original
> book, but rather a copy, made by two or more scribes who could not
> themselves understand it.

A (fair) copy: a very reasonable assumption. Whether or not the scribes
could understand it: I am not sure how we could judge that. Perhaps,
the original was in some other language/script the scribe(s) did not
understand, and then he/they had some translation rules to go to
'Voynichese'. These may have been totally clear to them but any errors
may have been in the 'reading' step.

> The "ignorant scribe" theory would explain the reported lack of
> corrections in the VMs. A person who copies something he doesn't
> understand will not notice a mistake by just looking at what he wrote.

There are a few corrections, some very clear, some doubtful. There
are some later text insertions, which are quite clear. There are also
cases where a line seems to 'make room' for the next line, i.e. when
writing line 'n' the scribe knew that at line 'n+1' there would
be a tall gallows character in the middle. None of these arguments
are very compelling, but together they give me a feeling that the
text was copied, and the scribe occasionally noticed an error. I get a
general feeling that this is the work of one person only but can't
prove it of course.

> By the way, the modern transcriptions of the VMs by Pedersen,
> Friedman, Currier, &co are good models for this sort of thing.
> Friedman's and Currier's differ in more than one symbol every 10
> words---and they were done by people who presumably cared about
> accuracy. I wouldn't expect a more accurate transcription from a
> medieval scribe.

Quite consistent differences in some sections may be seen. These
make it possible to conclude with certainty that the FSG transcription
was not done by one person (but we knew that anyway), but also that
probably the file voynich.now was not done by one person. This would
answer the question whether it was done by Currier or D'Imperio.

> Finally, the "ignorant scribe" theory would also explain the reported
> language differences between the two hands (as each scribe developed
> his own "reading" of the original script.)

Perhaps in a scenario as I suggested above, where a translation
from something to Voynichese was involved. In that case,
the rule to convert A to B or vice versa, or both to some common
subset should be possible, as it is for the ascii transcriptions
by FSG and Currier/D'Imperio. If we have two scribes there should
be two distinct 'languages'. If there is one writer writing over
different periods of time, some intermediate forms or continuous
changes may be observable. I tend to favour the latter. Of course,
if there are two scribes, writing over a longer period of time.....

> On the other hand, even an ignorant scribe would preserve much of the
> "natural language" feel we see in the VMs text.  Which, by the way, is
> a strong argument against it being meaningless pseudo-text, or
> glossolalia.

This natural-language feel has me distinctly worried. It does not
appear all that strong to me. But hopefully I'm wrong. I would
certainly not be able to distinguish the most beautiful Arabic
poetry from a listing of randomly picked words from a dictionary.


All other opinions heartily welcomed,

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep  3 12:20:05 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs:Ratio of O89 to C89
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:20:31 +0100
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Hello everyone.
I have examined INTERLN.EVT version 1.6 ( plus a few additions ) 
comparing versions of the same text to get as good a count as I
can of Currier O89 and C89 in VM words. With very few exceptions
these are word endings.
 The ratio of the counts for Herbal-A, Herbal-B and Bio-B are very
different strongly suggesting fundamental differences between them
with other texts often having strangely variable ratios.
 Both recto and verso of the same folio in the above 3 groups are in
the same group.
 The overall counts for Herbal-A folios ( 1-56 less Herbal-B given
below ) plus f87,90,93 and 96 are O89 270 with C89 4 only ( one
each on f27v,32r,51r and 87r ).   The pharmaceutical-A counts
for folios f88,89,99,100,101 and 102 are O89 140 with C89 12 (the
12 come from 3 on f88v and f89r1, 2 on f89r2 and 1 on f99v,101v1,
102r1 and 102r2 ).
 The Herbal-B counts come from f26,31,33,34,39,40,41,43,46,48,
50,55,65,94 and 95.  The totals are O89 131 with C89 453.
 The Bio-B count for folios f75 to 84 is very different   O89 9 and
C89 1758.  The 9 are 3 on f79r with 1 on f77v,81r,81v,82v,83r and
83v.

The Astro and Zodiac folios are not yet fully transcribed.  For what
it is worth the f67 to f70r2 counts are O89 31 with C89 13 and
Zodiac f70v2 to f73 are O89 12 with C89 8.  The non-rossette side
of f85/86 namely f85r1 ( r2 not transcribed ), 86v4,v6,v5 and v3
gives O89 60 with C89 116.
 
 f103 to f116r have variable counts with an overall figure of O89 275
with C89 1583.      f108r,v and f111r have (9,145),(3,135) and 
(11,129) with f111v as (1,66) with f116r as (2,67).  Yet f104r is
(26,44), 105r is (24,59), 113r is (23,50) and 106v is (22,52).
 More detailed analysis may suggest a mixture of 'B' hands.
Certainly the area with different paragraph starters needs special
attention.

  f57r has (14,11), 57v (2,0), 58r (9,2), 58v (5,2), 66r (30,42) and
66v (12,8).  A real mixed bag.        f57r is virtually all O89 
in the first paragraph and all C89 in the second !!!  When I
referred to Petersen's transcription I saw that he had noticed the
figures, but it was unclear if he recognised the importance of
the paragraph split.

Well - I hope the above stimulates those who are statistically
minded  to probe further.   CO89 and CC89 for instance plus
other 89 words and endings

Good luck           Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep  3 14:14:03 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> > More seriously: while isolated parts of the VMs may look a bit like
> > this obsessive drivel, the book as a whole does not.
> 
> I would say: some sections do not. The most sensible ones are the
> early herbal section (where the drawings are nicer) and the
> stars/recipes section at the end). The most conspicuous portion
> of the book, the biological section taints the work as a whole
> (IHMO of course).

	Could you elaborate here?  Do you mean that the language of the
biological folios looks the most like obsessive drivel?  The usage there
is supposed to be the most consistent.

> A (fair) copy: a very reasonable assumption. Whether or not the scribes
> could understand it: I am not sure how we could judge that. Perhaps,
> the original was in some other language/script the scribe(s) did not
> understand, and then he/they had some translation rules to go to
> 'Voynichese'. These may have been totally clear to them but any errors
> may have been in the 'reading' step.

	I think that the smoothness of the script and the elaborate
embellishments argues that the scribe(s) understood it.
 
> There are a few corrections, some very clear, some doubtful. 

	I didn't know that!  Could you point some of them out?

> Perhaps in a scenario as I suggested above, where a translation
> from something to Voynichese was involved. In that case,
> the rule to convert A to B or vice versa, or both to some common
> subset should be possible, as it is for the ascii transcriptions
> by FSG and Currier/D'Imperio. If we have two scribes there should
> be two distinct 'languages'. If there is one writer writing over
> different periods of time, some intermediate forms or continuous
> changes may be observable. I tend to favour the latter. Of course,
> if there are two scribes, writing over a longer period of time.....

	I think you once said that the difference between Voynich A and B is
similar to the difference between two different books of the Vulgate
Bible?  Is that correct?  If so, how did you judge the difference?  I
was thinking that the size of the chi-squared statistic for the
single-letter and digraph distribution might be one way of judging the
magnitude of style difference.  IIRC, word frequencies are used for
judging style differences for known language texts.  

> This natural-language feel has me distinctly worried. It does not
> appear all that strong to me. But hopefully I'm wrong. I would
> certainly not be able to distinguish the most beautiful Arabic
> poetry from a listing of randomly picked words from a dictionary.

	We've noted what look like rhyming, acrostics, etc.  

	I'm currently pondering the meaning of the various paradigms for the
"words" - the paradigms of Tiltman, Firth, and Stolfi.  These paradigms
explain about 3/4 of the text by length.  In the past, people guessed
that the paradigms were grammatical paradigms, like verb conjugations or
noun declensions.  I'm guessing that they might elements of a cipher -
or even coordinates in a nomenclator.  I wonder whether a paradigm(s)
could be developed to cover most of the remaining 1/4 of the text.  

Some more thoughts,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep  4 03:05:07 1997
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The statistics presented by Denis are interesting indeed.
They show that at least this behaviour is not a black-and-white
difference between A and B language but has a gradual change from
one section to the next.
Before jumping to conclusions, we must realise that the subject
matter may play a role, but this is difficult as the herbal A and
herbal B have such different statistics.
Thus one possible conclusion may be that we see a gradual change in
the language or coding rules which fits the option of 'one writer
over different periods of time' and we may define a tentative 'order'
in which things were written. I also like the conclusion that the
language on the Astro and Cosmo pages is a bit in between A and B.
I remember having this feeling while transcribing them.

> f57r is virtually all O89 in the first paragraph and all
> C89 in the second !!!
> When I referred to Petersen's transcription I saw that he
> had noticed the figures, but it was unclear if he recognised
> the importance of the paragraph split.

This is quite typical for Petersen. He has noticed most of
the oddities discussed in this group (and by Capt. Currier),
but never got round to drawing any conclusions - or at least
he did not include any such conclusions in this Ms, which is
perhaps logical. That leaves the question: where are they.
Has anybody got a copy of Newbold's overview of Petersen's work
which he/she would care to summarise?

> Well - I hope the above stimulates those who are statistically
> minded  to probe further.   CO89 and CC89 for instance plus
> other 89 words and endings

Not to mention the question: 'what precedes the O89 and C89?'.
O89 is often (but I did not count) preceded by C, so the O may
just be an insertion. Against that is that C89 is often preceded by
a gallows with perhaps another C or two in between.
Slightly off this topic, I occasionally got the feeling that
the currier-S used as a pedestal for intruding gallows was a
shorthand notation for O-C, i.e. <clpt> means the same as <olpe>
(pardon my Frogguy). The use of one or the other form could be
a trend for one 'language' or 'section' or the other.

Keep up the good work,
              Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep  4 05:14:02 1997
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I responded to Stolfi's:

> > > More seriously: while isolated parts of the VMs may look a bit like
> > > this obsessive drivel, the book as a whole does not.
With:

> > I would say: some sections do not. The most sensible ones are the
> > early herbal section (where the drawings are nicer) and the
> > stars/recipes section at the end). The most conspicuous portion
> > of the book, the biological section taints the work as a whole
> > (IHMO of course).

Which prompted Dennis':

> Could you elaborate here?  Do you mean that the language of the
> biological folios looks the most like obsessive drivel?  The usage there
> is supposed to be the most consistent.

To elaborate: when Stolfi said: 'the book as a whole does not' he more
referred to the composition than the language, as I did when I said that
the book was tainted by the bio section. When browsing the pages of
the herbal section, one could admire them and call them interesting,
and the same would be true for the pharma, astro and cosmo sections.
But the zodiac and esp. biol. pages immediately bring this: 'wow this
guy was weird' feeling, which (all IMHO of course) then automatically
applies for the whole work.

That the language is consistent in this area is another way of
saying that there is little variation (or at least: less). Its
vocabulary (and perhaps also syntax) is more restricted, and
the repetitiveness make this section seem less meaningful (at least
to me) than some other sections.

>> Perhaps, the original was in some other language/script the
>> scribe(s) did not understand, and then he/they had some
>> translation rules to go to 'Voynichese'. These may have been
>> totally clear to them but any errors may have been in the
>> 'reading' step.

> I think that the smoothness of the script and the elaborate
> embellishments argues that the scribe(s) understood it.

Fully agreed. He/they had become very familiar with the script
and as soon as it was decided *what* to write, this was done
with ease. If the original was in Arabic, it may be that this
was not understood by the scribe. I'll admit immediately that
this is not necessarily the most likely scenario though. It would
have involved a painful first conversion from Arabic to draft
Voynichese and then a fair copy of that. It doesn't have to
be Arabic, either. Oddly abbreviated and illegibly handwritten
Latin would do just as well. Have you ever seen a sample of
Merovingian Chancery script? (:-))

>> There are a few corrections, some very clear, some doubtful.

 > I didn't know that!  Could you point some of them out?

 I haven't really got a complete list but some comments in our
 transcription files. Some loci that may have corrections are
f16r.2, f27r.6, f39r.12, f42r.19, f50v.8, f83r.15
but I cannot check right now how clear/doubtful they are and this
is only a partial list. Also, the locus numbers may not be the
same as in voynich.now or fsg.new.
I  can send more precise locations of the most probable corrections
tomorrow.

 > I think you once said that the difference between Voynich A and B is
> similar to the difference between two different books of the Vulgate
> Bible?  Is that correct?

 I may have. I think Gabriel demonstrated it as well. But there is
 one thing in which Voynichese is different from the Vulgate Latin.
 The differences between A and B are consistent at the word
 composition level (i.e. for components smaller than words). This
 may be observed from the word lists I put at Gabriel's site,
 and is especially obvious from Denis Mardle's recent post.
 This does not happen in the transcribed Latin of the Vulgate
 bible. It may happen in hand-written Latin when different
 spelling (and abbreviation) conventions are followed.
 (U vs. V, 9 vs US, (gallow) vs PRO, etc, etc)

> I wonder whether a paradigm(s) could be developed to cover most
> of the remaining 1/4 of the text.

Note that there may always be words that do not fit or have
to be spelled out or broken up. If the original text is Latin
but a plant name like 'Drachenwurtz' occurs,
this is likely to result in some non-standard Voynichese.
Once, while transcribing, I imagined that often, near the
end of a herbal page, there would be some unusual Voynichese.
Later, looking more closely for this, I have not been able
to find it back, alas, but it occurred to me that it would
have been a very important feature, indicating that there might
have been a plant name or any other foreign word, and evidence
in favour of meaningful contents of at least the herbal section.
This will require a closer look still..... I would have done
it already if my %$&* C compiler allowed me arrays of more than 64k
bytes.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep  4 04:41:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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On  3 Sep 97 at 13:10, Dennis wrote:
> 	I think you [Rene] once said that the difference between Voynich A and B is
> similar to the difference between two different books of the Vulgate
> Bible?  Is that correct?  If so, how did you judge the difference?  I
> was thinking that the size of the chi-squared statistic for the
> single-letter and digraph distribution might be one way of judging the
> magnitude of style difference.  IIRC, word frequencies are used for
> judging style differences for known language texts.  

I suppose that the statement was based on the distance between 
languages A and B for the first 300 most common tokens measured with 
the R-squared of the linear regression of frequencies in A on 
frequencies in B, and compared to the Vulgate Bible's Genesis and 
Isaiah. This is described in the evmt page in the "Zipf's laws in the 
Voynich Manuscript" section. This distance *magnitude* is smaller in 
the VMS than in the 2 Vulgate books, but there is no statistical 
significance attached to the figures (there may be, but I haven't 
found the way of estimating it...).

cheers,
Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep  4 05:41:02 1997
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Jim,

>  I have a xerox copy of Bausani's book "Le lingue inventate".

how are you managing reading it?

> There is also the Stuttgart edition, titled "Geheim- und
> universalshachen: entwicklung und typologie",

Presumably: Geheim- und Universalsprachen ...

I'll check it out but I've been disappointed by the library quite a lot
recently.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep  4 12:20:04 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: SOE:initial,medial,final
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:21:58 +0100
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>From Denis Mardle      4 September 1997

In Rene Zanbergen's Currier A and B: two different languages ? of
11/01/97 at the EVMT site he gives VMs word counts for various
sections.  In particular Currier SOE is second highest after 8AM
(8AIID) in Herbal-A and Pharma-A with 224 and 49 occurences.
8AM has 423 and 116.   Totals of 273 and 539.
 Now SOE also occurs in these texts as Initial, medial or final
in total counts of 36, 20 and 151.  Of interest is that SOR the
next commonest word - 154 and 22, total 176  has corresponding
i, m, f counts of 26, 12 and 170.  ZOE and ZOR are less common
but ZOE words total 101+9=110 and ZOR 63+9(at most) for about
70.   The i, m, f totals are ZOE 12, 6, 23  and ZOR 9, 0, 23
 As one might have expected ( although I was pleased to see it )
the populations of initial and final word elements before medial
and final SOE,SOR,ZOE and ZOR seem to be similar and,
although the sample sizes are smaller, the same applies to
final word elements after medial and initial SOE,SOR,ZOE and
ZOR.  Figures in order below by first letter for 
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
O                    2   2                5               1               1
 
OP                  3  23           1 16              3                1  
OP9P                    1  
OPO                                      1  
OPZ                                       1  
OF                  1   9               14          1   1                1 

OFSO                                     1  
OB                  1   3            2   3  
OV                       1                 1  
O9F                                        1  
OEV                                        1  
OR                                          1  
OSF                                        1
      Note the dominance of the Gallows symbols after O and 9
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
9                          6               9                               
 1  
9P                        3           1 10  
9F                    2  3               4                 1  
9B                        2               2             1  
9V                                         1
9S9F                                     1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
8                     2  17          1  23          1                   10 

8AR                                       1  
8OR                                  1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
4O                        1  
4OP                1  12               10  
4OF                    13           1    8               2  
4OB                      1                2
4OV                                        1
4O9B                    1  
4F                         1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
P                     2  12          1  13          1   5               2  
PO                        1  
PF                                          1  
POR                                                                       
1  
PSOP                                     1  
PSPSO                   1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
F                     3  14          2  17          1   2               3  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
B                          1               6               1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
V                     2   2                            1                   
1
VC                                         1  
VOE                     1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
2                          4                4  
2OF                      1
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
S                                                            1  
SO                                        2  
SOP                      1                                2  
SOF                      4                                1               
1  
SOB                      2  
SP                                         2  
SF                                      1  1  
SB                         1  
SCOF                     1  
SCOB                                      1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
ZOF                      1                                                
1  
Z9                                                           1  
Z9P                                        1  
ZC                                                           1  
ZCOF                    1  
ZCOB                                                       1  
ZCF                                        1  
              SOE-m   f   SOR-m   f   ZOE-m   f   ZOR-m   f   
CF                       1  
E                         1                 1  
Q9                       1 
WOF                    1  
 
 It will be interesting to see if other common words have the
same statistics.     I will give the final word elements in a 
later table.   They are more scattered than the initial ones
given above.

 Comments ?  
 I have an interesting explanation which I'll give later. As a hint
notice how 4O only occurs once.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep  4 20:02:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 16:58:13 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: medicinae Baccalaureus as represented in Voynich
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Dear all,

I just cannot believe that it was so simple for me to delete a file I had
over 11 hours of typing into, but I have just done it and it is beyond
recovery.  A program locked up and I lost everything!!!!

Contained in the file was my proof that the Voynich author maintained a
medicinae Baccalaureus, but had not yet progressed to the medicinae Doctor
degree by the time the Voynich was written.  The weekend is now gone so time
to recreate this file will be set aside until next weekend, but the concept
should be put forward.  Perhaps comment on this thought by the weekend will
add to my initial work, which has to be rebuilt.

I began by challenging the "second-hand scribe" theory, commonly referred to
by me as the "up-in-smoke theory".  This theory keeps repeating that the
'second-hand scribe' might have copied an earlier manuscript, now also gone
'up-in-smoke'.

My argument was that the Voynich as written follows the exact curriculum
that would have been studied by a potential medicinae Baccalaureus in the
15th/16th century, but does not hold enough information to suggest that the
author ever progressed to the educational level of medicinae Doctor.

This suggestion means that the author was western in education, and not just
copying something not understood.  This suggestion also precisely defines
the limits of possible information contained within the Voynich, offering
clear guidelines for decryption efforts.  It also limits dramatically the
search for possible authors.

Anyway, sling your arrows now, because I am rewriting my work and I would
love to include answers to any questions while I write.  With all my
technology I lost a file.  I am totally bummed.


Regards,   Rayman












From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep  5 08:29:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 07:27:45 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> Which prompted Dennis':
> 
> > I wonder whether a paradigm(s) could be developed to cover most
> > of the remaining 1/4 of the text.
> 
> Note that there may always be words that do not fit or have
> to be spelled out or broken up. If the original text is Latin
> but a plant name like 'Drachenwurtz' occurs,
> this is likely to result in some non-standard Voynichese.
> Once, while transcribing, I imagined that often, near the
> end of a herbal page, there would be some unusual Voynichese.
> Later, looking more closely for this, I have not been able
> to find it back, alas, but it occurred to me that it would
> have been a very important feature, indicating that there might
> have been a plant name or any other foreign word, and evidence
> in favour of meaningful contents of at least the herbal section.
> This will require a closer look still..... I would have done
> it already if my %$&* C compiler allowed me arrays of more than 64k
> bytes.

	This is all interesting!  In addition to what you've said, the labels
are a puzzle.  We've had so little luck using them as cribs.  One rarely
sees the labels in the herbal sections in the text.  Even if the labels
were numerals or abbreviations, as I've suggested, one would expect to
see those in the text as references.  Thus I've wondered if many things
are in the Voynich concealment system, whatever that might be, and some
are not.  

	Robert Firth developed his paradigm from the A corpus.  He took the 280
most frequent "words", which accounted for 80% of the text, and
developed a paradigm that fit them almost entirely.  Could we have a
grid, where the first part of the paradigm represents the row and the
second part the column?  The remainder, which Jorge Stolfi calls the
"unparseables", might be in plain text.  

	To see Robert's paradigm and discussion, visit
http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/firth/24.txt

	Whatever the truth, the paradigms are certainly a very striking feature
of the VMs text!

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep  5 11:35:18 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: SOE:initial,medial,final:part 2
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:36:24 +0100
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  From Denis Mardle     5 September 1997
To clarify the table I sent in part one, the first column is the initial
word element that is followed by medial or final SOE etc.
 Today I give the final word element following initial or medial SOE
etc.
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
O                   1                5               1 
O8O                                                                   1 
O89               2                1                                 1 
OE                1    3           1    1         1    1 
OE9               1
OEF9                                     1 
OE8AM               1 
OE2               1                                 1 
OEAR            1 
OR                 2                 3    1         1 
OM                                   1               1 
OJ                                                           1 
OSC9                                                      1 
               SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
9                     7    5         11   5          3    1         5
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
8                    1    1   
89                  5    4           2   3          2   1           1 
8AR                1 
8AM                3 
8S9                 1 
8Z9                 1 
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
4O8                     1 
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
FAM               1                                 1 
FCS9              1 
FZ                         1 
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
2                    2    1                           1 
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
AE                  1 
AE9                                 1 
AM                  1               2                                 1 
AN                                   2 
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
E                                          1 
E9                                    1 
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
S9                       2           1 
SCAM                  1 
              SOE-i   m   SOR-i   m   ZOE-i   m   ZOR-i   m 
ZO                  1 
ZOE                                                       1 
CP9                 1 

  Some of the above finals, but not many, may have the next
VMs word tacked on.
  Back to my idea from yesterday ( not new ?).  The tables do
not suggest an artificial language to me.  Nor is a simple
substitution at all likely.  This leaves three 'front runners'
 a)  SOE etc. are words made up of syllables.
 b)  Each element of SOE etc. is an abbreviation to form
      a word.
 c)  SOE etc. are words with consonants only.

Less likely is that SOE etc. is a single syllable, although they
might just be two syllables.

If a),b) or c) are correct then the final or initial or both VMs word
elements are likely to have one, or just possibly more, words
with corresponding meanings to a),b) or c).  So, for example,
'9' looks like a word as does 4OP and 4OF but not 4O.  It is
I think important to discover other stongly likely initial,medial
and final sections of VMs words ( including common VMs
words on their own as found with SOE etc. ) .  The statistics
given here could be misleading.  4O may be rare because
4OS or 4OZ or 4OSO or 4OZO are rare.

Comments ?              Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep  5 21:35:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:32:36 -0400
From: John & Sue Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Denis Mardle wrote:

>  The tables do not suggest an artificial language to me.  Nor is a simple
>
> substitution at all likely.  This leaves three 'front runners'
>  a)  SOE etc. are words made up of syllables.
>  b)  Each element of SOE etc. is an abbreviation to form
>       a word.
>  c)  SOE etc. are words with consonants only.
>

    If we're voting.... I like  'a' !

> Less likely is that SOE etc. is a single syllable, although they
> might just be two syllables.
>

    It may well be a combination ... ie some characters represent syllables
while others are pure vowels or consonants.  Option a is really obtion c
with the vowels attached to the consonants. Some vowel representation in
Arabic does exist in more than the children's readers... The letter A in
particular is quite freqently written as well as the two dots for 'i' or
'y' (take the name Libya for example - It is written LBYA). The VMs might
be representing the required vowels by extra i or c strokes thus in, iin,
iiin, and cg, ccg, cccg.  The single character n or g then would also have
to have a vowel attached for a syllabic pattern to work.  This is what I've
been working on and am constantly finding that trying to assign a set of
structural rules for spelling is blocked by numerous irregularities in the
text - perhaps abbreviations or (IMHO) more likely numerals represented in
the fashion of roman numerals. MCMXVIII can really mess up a word when
you're assigning a syllabic
set...                                                                8-)

John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Sep  6 04:26:02 1997
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 voynich@rand.org; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 04:23:06 EDT
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 01:22:59 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: condolences
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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 To all my British friends I would like to take this opportunity to express
my deep sorrow at the passing of Princess Diana, and my heartfelt thanks to
a country that produced such a wonderful person for us all to enjoy and
love, if only too briefly.

Regards,   Rayman


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep  7 07:26:01 1997
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From: "David R. Jones" <jdnolan@budget.net>
To: "VOYNICH-L" <voynich@rand.org>, "enoch list" <enochian-l@hollyfeld.org>
Cc: "xefer" <xepera-l@netcom.com>, "tygai" <tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com>,
        <JOHN_DEE@fre.fsu.umd.edu>, "John Felczak" <behemoth@ni.net>
Subject: Enochian Typefaces
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:20:08 -0700
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

I now have made a primitive table for comparing the various Enochian
Typefaces available on the
web:
http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/Enoch_Gfx/Unclassified/EnochType.gif
The letters are given from left to right in the order of their
appearance in the Angelic alphabet.  The page itself is designed to be
printed landscape to get the full affect.

row 1.  Courier
row 2.  Enochian.ttf : 
http://www.concentric.net/~mystic31/mystic-zone13/magick/script/enochian.htm

row 3.  DEEnoch.ttf : 
ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/Enochian_Fonts/
row 4.  DEEEnds.ttf : 
ftp://ftp.dnai.com/users/c/cholden/Enochian_Fonts/
row 5.  Eno.ttf :  http://www.NetGSI.com/~gschueler/enochian.ttf
row 6.  EnochianWriting.ttf :
http://www.deniart.com/ancientwritingstwo.html


Love is the law, love under will.

David R. Jones aka Prospero  
     jdnolan@budget.net
     http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/Invis.html
     http://w3.one.net/~parker/JonesArt.html
     http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/City.html
Magick code:  MEN/TH (# S* W---->----- N++>* PWM/AM++++ Ds@/d++/r+++
A+++ a+++ C++++>* G* QO+++++(#196884q) 666+++ Y+++>++++

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep  7 22:59:03 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: John Dee was not quack
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    > [Rayman:] I take some exception to any reference of Dr. John Dee
    > as a 'quack'.  It would take too much time to write a complete
    > list of Dee's accomplishments on this page, but rest assured he
    > was at the forefront of the educated world in his own time.
    > Even his questionable angelic works may well prove to be
    > something entirely different from what they appear.

I stand corrected; I have no reason to doubt his good faith. 
But, at the very least, he was a bit too willing to believe.

Thanks to the good will of Clay Holden, http://www.dnai.com/~cholden/,
I have just leafed through his /Misteriorum Liber Primus/
I cannot think of anything else except an early example of 
"spiritualist" deception, perpetrated on poor Dr. Dee by 
his "friend" Edward Talbot (aka Edward Kelly)---with the 
help of his servant Saul and a few other accomplices.  

It begins with E.T. showing up, uninvited and unknown, at Dee's home,
immediately displacing the servant Saul as Dee's "skryer" (medium).
Presumably Saul was not smart and/or educated enough to
make up convincing "angelical" answers to Dee's questions. 

My reading of Dee's detailed reports is that his "Chrystaline Globe"
"which was given me of a frende" worked as the ocular of a
telescope-like device.  The "angels" were actually costumed
accomplices performing in an adjacent room. Their images were
projected by another lens or curved mirror through some opening in the
wall, and refracted by Dee's crystal ball.  This would allow Dee to
see some scenes---although it seems that only E.T. saw the most complex
ones, like the "infinitude of angels".  (Only E.T., of course, could
*hear* the angels...)

Quoting from the /Liber Primus/:

  He [Edward Talbot] than settled him self to the Action: and on his
  knees att my desk (setting the [crystal] stone before him) fell to
  prayer and entreaty &c. In the mean space, I [John Dee], in my
  Oratory did pray, and make motion to god, and his good Creatures for
  the furdering of this Action. And within one quarter of an howre (or
  less) he had sight of one in the stone. but he still expected for
  two more: deeming this to be one of the three (namely Anchor Anachor
  Anilos). But I then cam to him, to the stone: And after some thanks
  to God, and Wellcome to the good Creature, used; I required to know
  his name. And he spake plainly, (to the hearing of E.T.) that his
  name is URI GELLER.

8-)

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep  8 02:29:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:22:26 -0700
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Clay Holden <cholden@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: John Dee was not quack
Status: OR

stolfi:

>I stand corrected; I have no reason to doubt his good faith.
>But, at the very least, he was a bit too willing to believe.

Without wishing to get into arguments re: cryptography vs. spiritual agency
(which Rayman and I engaged in at length some years ago with less than
satisfactory results), I will observe that Dee may well have been quite
willing to believe, but that from the record he followed the age-old
tradition of "testing" the spirits that E.K. skryed as well, and that
reference to the communications received over a period of nearly seven
years remains remarkably internally consistent.

>Thanks to the good will of Clay Holden, http://www.dnai.com/~cholden/,
>I have just leafed through his /Misteriorum Liber Primus/
>I cannot think of anything else except an early example of
>"spiritualist" deception, perpetrated on poor Dr. Dee by
>his "friend" Edward Talbot (aka Edward Kelly)---with the
>help of his servant Saul and a few other accomplices.
>It begins with E.T. showing up, uninvited and unknown, at Dee's home,
>immediately displacing the servant Saul as Dee's "skryer" (medium).
>Presumably Saul was not smart and/or educated enough to
>make up convincing "angelical" answers to Dee's questions.

Saul was never Kelley's servant or accomplice, and was dismissed by Dee
long before Kelley ever arrived to offer his services as a skryer.
Reference to Dee's private diaries (available from several sources)
confirms both of these statements. In fact, the episode with Barnabas Saul
which appears in _Mysteriorum Liber Primus_ took place the previous year to
Edward Talbot/Kelley's appearance.

While discussions of this matter are probably off-topic on the Voynich
list, I feel it necessary to address these inaccuracies in your portrayal
of the record.

>My reading of Dee's detailed reports is that his "Chrystaline Globe"
>"which was given me of a frende" worked as the ocular of a
>telescope-like device.  The "angels" were actually costumed
>accomplices performing in an adjacent room. Their images were
>projected by another lens or curved mirror through some opening in the
>wall, and refracted by Dee's crystal ball.  This would allow Dee to
>see some scenes---although it seems that only E.T. saw the most complex
>ones, like the "infinitude of angels".  (Only E.T., of course, could
>*hear* the angels...)

You are evidently unfamiliar with the use of crystal balls in skrying, nor
with the tradition current in the Renaissance regarding their use. This is
clearly what is referred to b the "chrystaline globe".

Dee never claimed to be able to see or hear into the crystal ball _at all_
(with the exception of one occasion years earlier), which was why he
employed skryers. To suggest that Kelley had a troupe of people posing as
spirits dancing about in another room is absurd, as he is the only one who
claimed to be able to see them. It obviously could not have been for Dee's
benefit. Furthermore, these spirit actions took place not only in Mortlake
England, but all over central and eastern Europe as well.

Later references (to be seen for example at the beginning of Casaubon's
_True and Faithful Relation_) to Dee's "great perspective glass" may be in
relation to some such ocular device. Clearly, Dee was familiar with both
theory and construction of burning mirrors, having written commentaries on
Archimedes' work himself. Pursuing some evidence along these lines might be
much more fruitful than assuming willful participation in a deception on
Dee's part.

>Quoting from the /Liber Primus/:
>
>  He [Edward Talbot] than settled him self to the Action: and on his
>  knees att my desk (setting the [crystal] stone before him) fell to
>  prayer and entreaty &c. In the mean space, I [John Dee], in my
>  Oratory did pray, and make motion to god, and his good Creatures for
>  the furdering of this Action. And within one quarter of an howre (or
>  less) he had sight of one in the stone. but he still expected for
>  two more: deeming this to be one of the three (namely Anchor Anachor
>  Anilos). But I then cam to him, to the stone: And after some thanks
>  to God, and Wellcome to the good Creature, used; I required to know
>  his name. And he spake plainly, (to the hearing of E.T.) that his
>  name is URI GELLER.
>
>8-)

I understand that this is intended as as joke, but it comes off as yet
another cheap shot at one of the great minds of the 16th century. Unlike
John Dee, Uri Geller has not left behind a significant body of work in
several disciplines, and is not likely to.

Perhaps you would care to pursue the next two books of Dee and Kelley's
"spirit actions', which are also available on my web-site, for some further
exposure to the nature of this communication.

I do not suggest that there is not a good deal of cryptographic matter
involved in Dee's work, but that there is much else to be found as well.

Sorry if this is sufficiently off-topic to irritate anyone.

With best wishes,

Clay


                                 Clay Holden
                             <cholden@netcom.com>        ( - )
                         http://www.dnai.com/~cholden    ( + )
                        "Super caelestes roretis aquae:  __:__
                         Et terra fructum dabit suum."     |
                                  -John Dee              /^|^\


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep  8 04:11:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 01:05:59 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: John Dee was not quack
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>I stand corrected; I have no reason to doubt his good faith.
>But, at the very least, he was a bit too willing to believe.

There may be much more to the gullability factor than we know when it comes
to Dee.  Was Dee so gullible as to believe E.T., or was it actually Dee that
counted on the gullability of his enemies?

>Thanks to the good will of Clay Holden, http://www.dnai.com/~cholden/,
>I have just leafed through his /Misteriorum Liber Primus/
>I cannot think of anything else except an early example of
>"spiritualist" deception, perpetrated on poor Dr. Dee by
>his "friend" Edward Talbot (aka Edward Kelly)---with the
>help of his servant Saul and a few other accomplices.

I have read the Quinti Libri Mysteriorum and all related books, and I have a
lot more questions than answers when it comes to the content of these books.
On first reading it seems like a story of a righteous man in search of
truth, who has been tragically led astray.  What I do not understand is the
connection between E.T. and Dee.  I am not sure who is actually who in this
story.

We can trace Dee's cabbalistic studies back some thirty years before the
Quinti Libri, yet we can find nothing of E.T.'s studies in this area.  Every
entrance by the angels has direct alphabetical connection with Dee's speech
or invocation, yet we must believe that these connections are drawn by E.T.
in the spur of the moment.  We must also believe that Kelly manufactured
some very heavy cabbalistic mathematics for each of these sessions, which
meant he must have stayed up very late each night working out the script for
the next day.  Time after time after time there are heavy references to
earlier works by some of the greats, which means that E.T. must have been at
least as well read as Dee, but Dee does not acknowledge this about E.T.

>From the very beginning we see Annael, "Ut Agrippa Notat", which means that
E.T. must have understood the third book of Agrippa's Occult Philosophy as
well as Dee did, because Dee makes virtually direct quotes from this book in
his Monas Heiroglyphica, written more than a decade before the beginning of
the Quinti Libri.  Dee became familiar with Agrippa's works and the hidden
information contained in the last book as early as the 1530's when he
studied at Padua, a very open university by medieval standards.  There is no
evidence that E.T. ever had this exposure.  An interesting note to this is
that although Dee quotes Agrippa in the Monas, his library list says he
owned the first two books, but not the third.  Did Dee have a secret library
of more arcane knowledge?  Was the Voynich part of this library?  Just a
thought.


  The battle for educational reform was going on at Cambridge only during
the later part of the 1530's, and that battle was lost because of the
proclamation of the Six Articles by Henry VIII, which places Cambridge as
one of the most backward schools of the time period.  E.T.'s Cambridge
experience is questionable, but if he was educated in higher mathematics, it
was Cambridgensis knowledge he possessed, not the knowledge of Padua.  This
just doesn't wash.

Everything done in the angelic calls contains references to higher levels of
caballistic symbolism, mathematics and cipher than E.T. could have known,
and yet we must believe E.T. was responsible for this work.  I frankly do
not see how it could be possible.  We can go on to even later works in these
angelic calls and find direct references to the Monas and its symbology,
which was known only to Dee and a select few.  If anything came from Kelly
that Dee had told him, Dee should have recognized the source.

Dee had a very high level of education in the mathematical, caballistic and
astrological fields, optics and other physical sciences, while there is
absolutely no evidence that E.T. had any such training.  Dee had a long
history of expressing that knowledge in esoteric works, while E.T. had no
such distinguished writing career.  Dee's hidden knowledge was accepted by
kings, queens and many of the higher education without a problem, while its
purpose of keeping hidden this knowledge from the less educated worked so
well it gained him a very bad reputation.  E.T. gained his bad reputation in
a more common manner.  While many dispute Deacon's findings, there is still
a body of evidence that Dee was an agent for the queen, and certainly had
her ear and goodwill.  E.T. was at best an irritation.

We can conclude that E.T. was indeed a Uri Geller with an educational level
higher than that of the good doctor, which would have been necessary in
order to deceive Dee.  On the other hand, we can also conclude that E.T. was
an interesting addition to an invented story, created and written solely by
Dee, the purpose of which was to disguise information, both political and
scientific.

As much as this subject seems to be out of the scope of the Voynich Study
Group, it actually fits right in with something I am presently working on.
One of my methods for determining sources and authors from this time period
is the application of what I know about the medieval teaching process and
what each level of education should produce in a work.  John Dee cannot hide
his level of education in the Quinti Libri, and even if he tried the
information and training comes out subconsciously in his work.  Dee could
not have written the Voynich, even if he tried.  Not one of his writings,
even early ones, demonstrates such a specialized and low level of knowledge.
He is clearly not the author.

We cannot produce something beyond our ability, and we also cannot  regress
our minds to points before we learned something new.  All you need to do in
order to to prove this to yourself is pull out some old high school papers
and compare them to your current level of writing.  What a drag, huh?  It
wasn't really you that wrote this, was it?  You couldn't have been that
geeky and misinformed, could you?  Now try to write a high school paper
again on the same subject without interjecting your current level of
awareness.  You do not know the person that wrote the original because you
are no longer that person.  If you do not know that person, how can you
think like that person?

There is a big difference between questionable anatomical drawings and
detailed anatomical drawings, while the plant drawings lack anything but
detail.  The presence of naked women and pipes does not necessarily mean
these are representations of a biological nature.  They are more likely
representations of the humors and the flow of humors within the body.  This
can be backed up with similar information found in other manuscripts.

Past the astrological section we do not find anything that can be considered
a strictly anatomical drawing, very important to the doctor.  Instead we
find humors and pharmaceuticals, more important to the pharmacologist.
Sometimes the lack of something yields just as much information as the
presence of something.  A doctor has an mD while a pharmacologist has an mB,
and all information in the Voynich is strictly in line with the knowledge of
a western mB, which I will attempt to prove in later detailed postings.

I have already posted my first impressions of the Voynich, impressions many
years in age.  I stated that the plants were lunar in nature, being drawn in
the stages where they had received the full influence of the moon.  I also
stated that the zodiac was to me more a lunar calendar than a solar
calendar, reinforcing the lunar nature of the herbal.  While unique in
literature, it is not at all unique in concept.  The lunar and venereal
aspects are prominent in all female disorders from a medieval medical sense,
and the construction of a book that accentuates these influences would mean
that our author was more interested in females and their biological
functions than anything else.  Some men wish to become gynecologists at an
early age, and while I do not understand this fact, nor do I wish to, it is
a fact just the same.  Considering the time period however, it does offer
many reasons for the necessity of encryption.  One does have to do research
in order to verify knowledge, and I think it would have been illegal for a
clergy member to do this sort of research.  The death punishment comes
directly to mind.

Something I have not posted as a direct comment, but does permeate all that
I write, is my impression that the author had little mathematical knowledge.
This was a perplexing thing to me for a very long time, because I always
associated astrology with higher mathematics, yet here we have an individual
who uses no mathematical symbolism whatsoever.  He also lacks more than a
rudimentary knowledge of geometry, which is evident in his inability to
properly divide circles and establish angles.  He was therefore not educated
in the four mathematical disciplines.  But how could this be for an educated
man of a medieval nature?  He clearly knew Latin and had some dealing with
at least Latin translations of Greek authors.  How could he get through
school with such a limited knowledge of the sciences?  You have no idea how
long this bothered me, that a person could write a book with even the most
basic knowledge of the sciences, but not exhibit that knowledge.  Now I know
why.

Simple!                         He was a pre-med student

I am presently working on something that takes the Voynich section by
section, sometimes page by page, to illustrate my point about omission and
inclusion.  In order to do this I find it necessary to recreate the
educational curriculum of the medieval doctor, since it is no longer
necessary to look into the education of anyone with substantial mathematical
background.  It is relatively simple to demonstrate that the author was not
educated in the quadrivium, which precludes anyone with that education from
the list of possible authors.  Further, there were only a few schools that
allowed advancement in any field of study without certain types of
education, which would narrow the field of schools and hopefully the time
period in which the Voynich was written.  For those of you who are waiting
for me to assert my own beliefs, yes, Cambridge under Henry VIII did not
require the quadrivium as a prerequisite to pre-med, and Greek was also only
an option, although many opted for the fuller education.

My 'paper' may take awhile, so it may be delivered in parts to the VSG.  I
have many letters out on the net to university departments requesting
information on course curriculum and other historical data from the 15th and
16th centuries.  I have letters out to astrological connections looking for
information on Pisces as well.  I never had a problem with Pisces leading
the zodiac until recent postings, and then I finally realized why I was
comfortable with this fact.  It was these postings about Pisces, coupled
with the comments about interleaving that led my train of thought.
Sometimes we store so much disconnected information in our heads that we
cannot put it together properly without help.  Thanks.

I had no problem with Pisces because a 15th century rebirth of astrology and
medicine placed Pisces at the feet, giving Pisces astrological control over
the body.  Every picture I have seen from this time has a person standing
firmly on the fish, intermingling the sign and the religious significance of
the feeding of the multitudes.  Pisces represents the duality of life, the
death and rebirth of all things, the two turning into thousands, a seed
multiplying a thousand fold.  This symbology is especially significant in
the annual cyclic nature of plants.  (In America we have a tradition that
the Indians taught the pilgrims how to plant fish along with the corn for
greater crop yields, yet this information was well known in Europe for
centuries before the pilgrims arrived in America.  Many stories have
symbolism, and that symbolism has a source.)  More than this was my
connection with a picture I once saw that showed a drawing of an apothecary
shop in Prague, the symbol on the sign being the two fish.  I have long
since forgotten the source of the picture, but the symbolism has always
remained.

I won't immediately jump out and claim that Pisces was a medical tradition,
but I will say that it was very significant to medical training and thought.
Excluding other facts that I can bring to bear, the Voynich zodiac can
simply be a reading for the author, who may have been born under Pisces.
This is not the case, but you will have to wait for my evidential
evaluation.  The Voynich Pisces marks the beginning of the planting year,
with specific herbs in mind.  The next sign offers more information on the
subject, although this information is more critical in nature because of the
delicacy of the herbs in question.  A farmer's almanac for a person trained
in the planting and harvesting of herbs in accord with the science of
astrology, namely, a medeival pharmacologist.

I find myself rambling on without offering supporting facts, which is
something I had not intended to do.  I get caught up in my own excitement
and sometimes lose my place in the scheme of things, so please forgive me.
Nevertheless, you can now gain a fairly good idea of where my right brain
takes me from time to time.  It is a western manuscript by a western author,
and not a copy of something eastern, or whatever.  The author was unaware of
Greek or Hebrew, but was strictly Latin and home-language in orientation,
which precludes any unknown tongues.  The facts (or lack thereof) prove
this, and I will demonstrate these facts in future messages.

There is no question in my mind that the work is cipher, as opposed to
artificial language.  The question that remains in my mind is where this
individual obtained his knowledge of this particular cipher, since his lack
of mathematical background would suggest he did not invent it on his own.  I
have a possible answer for this, but I must first investigate my theory in
order to test its plausibility.  That the Voynich has much to do with
language I have no doubt, but the language that is encrypted in the Voynich
cannot be considered artificial by any real test of artificial languages.

There is indeed much to be learned from the Voynich itself, even without
knowing what lies beneath.  What is learned is commensurate with the
knowledge one has of the time period in which it was written.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep  8 08:50:03 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Denis Mardle wrote:
> 
>   Back to my idea from yesterday ( not new ?).  The tables do
> not suggest an artificial language to me.  Nor is a simple
> substitution at all likely.  This leaves three 'front runners'
>  a)  SOE etc. are words made up of syllables.
>  b)  Each element of SOE etc. is an abbreviation to form
>       a word.
>  c)  SOE etc. are words with consonants only.
> 
> Less likely is that SOE etc. is a single syllable, although they
> might just be two syllables.

	Hi, Denis!  I haven't been able to consider your data in depth, but I'd
like to mention my idea that things like SOE might be a verbose
representation of a single phoneme.

	Or even less than that - it might be one element of a cipher.   Here is
Robert Firth's paradigm for Voynichese:

Odd Letters	Even Letters

	2		89
	4O		8AE
	4OF		8AM
	4OP		AE
	8		AJ
	9F		AM
	9P		AN
	F		AR
	O		C9
	OF		CC9
	OP		COE
	P		OE
	Q		OM
	S		OR
	SF		S9
	SP		SC9
	SQ		SO
	SW		SOE
	SX		SOR
	W		Z9
	X		9 (maybe)
	Z
	ZO

	You can find all the details at
http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/firth/24.txt

	This paradigm gives SOE as the final element in "words".  Robert's
paradigm accounts for the 280 most frequent "words" in Voynich A which
constitute 80% of the text length.  

	I'm still trying to figure out what the paradigms might mean.  I've
thought that the "words" are actually syllables.  Thus the "odd letters"
could be consonants and the the "even letters" could be vowels. 
However, that would mean that the great majority of the syllables in
Voynichese are open, ie CV.  That would also mean that the remaining 20%
of the text would be closed syllables, and I don't know whether that
makes sense or not.  I don't find this very convincing. 

FWIW,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep  8 10:50:19 1997
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Dennis wrote:

 > I haven't been able to consider your data in depth, but I'd
 > like to mention my idea that things like SOE might be a
 > verbose representation of a single phoneme.

 Why not: 'alpha', 'bravo' etc?

 > Or even less than that - it might be one element of a cipher.   > Here
is Robert Firth's paradigm for Voynichese:

 I included a section of it, to show that it has
 some inherent ambiguity, which will hurt if one
 has to rely on the spaces in the VMs.

> Odd Letters	Even Letters

 > 2	     89
 > 8	     AJ
 > P	     OE
 > S	     OR
 > SW	    SOE
 > SX	    SOR
 > X	     9 (maybe)
 > This paradigm gives SOE as the final element in "words".

 Or as complete words, in S/OE, same with SOR and ZOE,
 and with 89 vs. 8/9.

 > Robert's paradigm accounts for the 280 most frequent
 > "words" in Voynich A which constitute 80% of the text
 > length.

 It might do for more, but the other words were not considered.
 I realise it would have made the job much more difficult,
 but words that occur only once or twice cannot be
 dismissed as spurious, as I am sure most will agree.

 > I've thought that the "words" are actually syllables.
 > Thus the "odd letters" could be consonants and the
 > "even letters" could be vowels.
> However, that would mean that the great majority of the
> syllables in Voynichese are open, ie CV.

Not necessarily, if symbols are reserved for 'no vowel'
or 'no consonant' or 'double vowel/consonant'. The
combination of all four also introduces some ambiguity
as present in Firth's table.

I still like the idea behind the table, as it shows
how 'constructed' Voynichese appears to be. I don't
know of any European language that behaves even
remotely like this. Together with the full-word
repetitions and the absence of repeated strings of
words (i.e. parts of sentences), I must say that
Voynichese does not always 'feel' that much like
'language'.

FWIW 2, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep  8 11:38:05 1997
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About R.Firth's table and his obvious awareness of
some difficulties related with it:

>>  I included a section of it, to show that it has
>>  some inherent ambiguity, which will hurt if one
>>  has to rely on the spaces in the VMs.
> Here is some of Robert's elaboration:

> the lexical scansion is unambiguous if you also keep
> track of odd and even.

Which is what I meant. The spaces are probably needed to
keep track of odd/even.

 > If 'words' are syllables, then repeated words could be
 > repeated syllables,

 This should give rise to even longer partial sentences,
 unless a Brumbaughian multiple-choice substitution
 is thrown in as well, or an 'alpha'/'apple'/'aardvark'
 multiple choice spelling alpabet.
 Or an EKT :-)

 > There are some 'parts of sentences'.  Here are some
 > from a post by Michael Roe

 Yes, but I remember Mike being unhappy about their
 small number. Also, many of them are simply the
 4OFCC89.4OFCC89.4OFCC89 repetitions which are
 repeated in various places. Hardly what we'd be
 looking for. On top of that, Mike allowed for
 'similar' characters being counted as equal.

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep  8 11:20:22 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
>  > I'd like to mention my idea that things like SOE might be a
>  > verbose representation of a single phoneme.
> 
>  Why not: 'alpha', 'bravo' etc?

	Yes!  You might even have several alternatives:  for 'a' --> 
'alpha', 'able', 'apple'.  Thus a homophonic system, offering the
operator several alternatives.  This could explain the presence of the
'A' and 'B' languages -- although that could just be differences of
individual style.  

> Here is Robert Firth's paradigm for Voynichese:
> 
>  I included a section of it, to show that it has
>  some inherent ambiguity, which will hurt if one
>  has to rely on the spaces in the VMs.
> 
> > Odd Letters   Even Letters
> 
>  > 2         89
>  > 8         AJ
>  > P         OE
>  > S         OR
>  > SW       SOE
>  > SX       SOR
>  > X         9 (maybe)
>  > This paradigm gives SOE as the final element in "words".
> 
>  Or as complete words, in S/OE, same with SOR and ZOE,
>  and with 89 vs. 8/9.

	Here is some of Robert's elaboration:

"(Something's wrong with 8 or AM or 8AM; otherwise, it's rigorous.)

"[Note: and also with S/OM and S/OR.  But - and as a former compiler
writer I should really have spotted this - the lexical scansion is
unambiguous if you also keep track of odd and even.  '8' in state
"odd" must be a letter; '8' in state "even" must be the start of
'89' or '8AE' or '8AM'.  And who in the middle ages would have known
to do that?  One name springs to mind immediately: Ramon Lull, the
author of the 'Ars magna'.  Whose dates are ca 1235 to 1316, and
whose place of birth and permanent residence was the Isle of Majorca."

	SOE would work the same way.  S in the 'even' state (ie.
"word"-initial) would be the start of SOE, SOR, as a complete 'word'. 
In 'even' state (ie. "word"-medial or -final) S would have to be -SOE-,
etc.  You're right, the spaces make a difference.  

> Not necessarily, if symbols are reserved for 'no vowel'
> or 'no consonant' or 'double vowel/consonant'. The
> combination of all four also introduces some ambiguity
> as present in Firth's table.

	Yes, I had thought of that too.

> I still like the idea behind the table, as it shows
> how 'constructed' Voynichese appears to be. I don't
> know of any European language that behaves even
> remotely like this. Together with the full-word
> repetitions and the absence of repeated strings of
> words (i.e. parts of sentences), I must say that
> Voynichese does not always 'feel' that much like
> 'language'.

	If 'words' are syllables, then repeated words could be repeated
syllables, which one sees in many languages (eg. the name Lulu).  There
are some 'parts of sentences'.  Here are some from a post by Michael Roe
of 09 Aug 1995:

                                       **************************
<f84r.10>         
4OPS*89.9FCC89.4OFAEOE.ZC89.4OFC89.4OFCC89.4OFCC89.SC89.RAM.SC9.OPAR.8
<f43r.12>                  
8OR.ZOE.4OFOE.ZC89.4OPC89.4OFCC89.4OFO89.OFCC89.OPC89.ZC89.UP9.9P9.89.
<f75v.21>      
4OFAN.OEZC*9.4OFAN.8AR.OE.ZC89.4OFC89.4OFCC89.4OPAR.OEZC89.OE89-
<f84r.3>                      
4OFCC9.8AR.ZC89.4OFC89.4OFCC89.4OFC89.SC89.OFAM.SC9.4OFC89.8AR.OEAO89-
                                           ***********************
<f84r.3>                      
4OFCC9.8AR.ZC89.4OFC89.4OFCC89.4OFC89.SC89.OFAM.SC9.4OFC89.8AR.OEAO89-
<f79v.12>                          
BZ89.OVS89.4OFC89.4OPCC89.4OFC89.4OEPC89.4OPC89.OF9-
<f77r.34>                             
4OFCC89.4OPC89.4OFCC89.4OFCC89.4OFCC9.RAM.AE-8SCCOE.SCC89.4OPAM.4OPCC89.4OPC89.RAM-
<f83r.7> 2OEZC8.EZCC89.4CCC89.4OF9.O4OE.RZCC89.4OFC89.4OPCC89.4OPCC89-
<f84r.10>         
4OPS*89.9FCC89.4OFAEOE.ZC89.4OFC89.4OFCC89.4OFCC89.SC89.RAM.SC9.OPAR.8

There are also a few twice-only repeats:

                                               *********************** 
<f112v.33>                                
OR.SCCOR.OFCC89.4OFC89.4OFCC89.SC8AM.OFCCC89.OPAM.SCCFC9.SOE-
<f82v.5>
2OESC89.ESC89.8OEZC89.4OFAE.ZCX9.ZC9.PCCOE.OPCC89.4OFC89-4OPC9.4OFAE.ZCF9.4OFAE.SC89.4OPAESC89-


                       ***********************
<f26r.4> 4OFC89.SCO2.9PC89.4OFC89.9PC89.SCFC89.8AM.O8AJ.2AE89-
<f81v.12>  4OE.OE.S89.ZC89.4OFC89.9PC89.SCPC89.EFC8C9.9PC89-

                                                
*******************************
<f77r.8>
2ZC89.4OPAM.SC89.4OFAM.ZC89.4OESCC89.4OFCC89.EOE-4OPCC89.4OPCC89.4OFC89.ZCC8.4CC9.2AM.ZCCP9.4OFCC89.EOE-
<f75r.37>    
4OFC89.89.ZCCP9.4OFC89.4OFCC89.4OFCCC89.EOE-4OPCC89.4OFCC89.4OFC89.4OFC89.4OFCC89.E89-

	(My mail program is un-aligning these...)

	I'm certainly interested in the paradigms.  My next Voynich task,
though, is to finish writing up a lot of my previous work!  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 05:35:02 1997
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    > Did Dee have a secret library of more arcane knowledge?  Was the
    > Voynich part of this library?  Just a thought.

I believe it has been established that the page numbers in the VMs are
in Dee's handwriting.  Isn't that so?

    > Dee could not have written the Voynich, even if he tried.  Not
    > one of his writings, even early ones, demonstrates such a
    > specialized and low level of knowledge.  He is clearly not the
    > author.

I agree. It is just not his style.  From him, I would have expected more 
funny symbols, compound letters, some hebrew, etc.

Besides, we have Toresella's and other experts' opinions that the VMs 
was written at least a hundred years earlier, and that the calligraphy
is characteristically Italian.

If the VMs is indeed by John Dee, it must have been written before he
had learned Hebrew and turned his mind to magic.  I suppose it is
barely possible that he wrote it as a young medical student in Padua, where
he could have picked up the "italian-looking" handwriting.  He may
have intentionally tried to give it an "old style" look, just for
aesthetic reasons, which may have biased the expert's dates.  
(I am taking it from you that he did study at Padua, and just 
guessing that he did not know Hebrew before that...)

But I see no reason to stretch the odds so far.  Dee may have owned
the book at some time, but there is no reason to think that he wrote
it, or even that he could read it.

    > all information in the Voynich is strictly in line with the
    > knowledge of a western mB, which I will attempt to prove in
    > later detailed postings.

This would be a major step in our understanding of the VMs, and would
certainly help to eliminate some suspects.  Please keep on!

    > Considering the time period however, it does offer many reasons
    > for the necessity of encryption.  One does have to do research
    > in order to verify knowledge, and I think it would have been
    > illegal for a clergy member to do this sort of research.  The
    > death punishment comes directly to mind.
    
This hypothesis implies that the VMs was intentionally encrypted with
a "hard" cypher (one designed not to yield to an attack determined
inquisitors).  However, if the author ever got investigated for
heresy-related charges, and the book was found, he would have been
required to reveal the cypher; and refusal to do so would probably
have been as bad as an admission of guilt.  (Galileo had trouble
convincing his inquisitor that the printer's logo on the cover of his
book was not a hidden reference to Giordano Bruno's heresies.)

Moreover, the "dangerous knowledge" theory does not explain why the
*entire* book was encrypted, down to the last label.  Even if we
ignore the drawings, the structure of the text strongly suggests that
each section deals with a different subject matter.  It is hard to
believe that every sentence there was sensitive enough to justify the
effort of encrypting it.  And then there is the question of the 
two hands...

Are there any other books of similar size and structure
that have been encrypted just as thoroughly as the VMs? 
Any such examples would give more credibility to this theory.

There are other alternatives to the "hard cypher" theory.  The author
may have used a "soft" cypher (say, an invented alphabet, perhaps with
original abbreviations and spellings), whose purpose was merely to
discourage clandestine copying of recipes by students, servants, or
big shots who may want to borrow the book.  I.e., an early instance of
"copy-protected software".

Or the author may have been testing his "new improved" alphabet for
language X.  I have defended this theory before, I will not bore you again
with it.
    
    > Something I have not posted as a direct comment, but does
    > permeate all that I write, is my impression that the author had
    > little mathematical knowledge.  This was a perplexing thing to
    > me for a very long time, because I always associated astrology
    > with higher mathematics, yet here we have an individual who uses
    > no mathematical symbolism whatsoever.
    
Yes! Where are the numbers?!?!? 

    > He clearly knew Latin and had some dealing with at least Latin
    > translations of Greek authors.
    
Why do you say so? (Of course, it it hard to imagine a medieval 
book writer who *didn't* know Latin.)
    
    > ... which precludes anyone with [qudrivium] education from the
    > list of possible authors.
    
I wish you good luck, but I am skeptical about the chances of 
identifying the author based only on him having an incomplete pre-med
education.  

For one thing, he may have written the VMs while still a student, and
then gone on to become a full mD after all.  Or he may have switched
to a different field, moved to another university, etc..

In fact he may have written the book even before entering the
University; or he may have been a self-schooled healer working outside
the medical establishment (think of the modern "new age" books on
acupuncture, homeopathy, yoga, etc.)

On the other hand, if he did drop out of medical school, he probably
dropped out of history as well, and is unlikely to have left any other
evidence connecting him to the VMs.

    > Further, there were only a few schools that allowed advancement
    > in any field of study without certain types of education, which
    > would narrow the field of schools and hopefully the time period
    > in which the Voynich was written.  For those of you who are
    > waiting for me to assert my own beliefs, yes, Cambridge under
    > Henry VIII ...

But this theory is not very compatible with the Northern Italian
handwriting style, as assessed by the experts.  (Perhaps it was an
Italian student at Cambridge?)

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 06:08:03 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: John Dee was not quack
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[ This posting is about John Dee, and not directly about the Voynich.
  Should I take this discussion off this list? --stolfi ]

    > [Rayman:] We can trace Dee's cabbalistic studies back some
    > thirty years before the Quinti Libri, yet we can find nothing of
    > E.T.'s studies in this area.  Every entrance by the angels has
    > direct alphabetical connection with Dee's speech or invocation,
    > yet we must believe that these connections are drawn by E.T.  in
    > the spur of the moment.  We must also believe that Kelly
    > manufactured some very heavy cabbalistic mathematics for each of
    > these sessions, which meant he must have stayed up very late
    > each night working out the script for the next day.
    
Part of it could have been prepared well in advance, or picked up from
other sources.  

It much easier to feign great knowledge if you have control
of the dialogue.  (This is part of the standard modus operandi
of psychic readers, mediums, voodoo priests, etc.) 

In the /Misteriorum Libri/ I have read so far, it always the angels
who volunteer "advanced" information (symbols, cyphers, hebrew
writings, quotations, etc.)  Dee's questions are generally answered
with evasives, or in the following session.

Consider for instance the account, in the /Liber Secundus/, of
how the 40-letter circle and its permutation cypher were revealed.
I found the account of mistakes, corrections, and re-corrections 
as positively comical.  
    
    > Time after time after time there are heavy references to earlier
    > works by some of the greats, which means that E.T. must have
    > been at least as well read as Dee, but Dee does not acknowledge
    > this about E.T.
    >
    > From the very beginning we see Annael, "Ut Agrippa Notat", which
    > means that E.T. must have understood the third book of Agrippa's
    > Occult Philosophy as well as Dee did, because Dee makes
    > virtually direct quotes from this book in his Monas
    > Heiroglyphica, written more than a decade before the beginning
    > of the Quinti Libri.
    
E.T. didn't have to study Agrippa; he had only to study Dee himself.
This too is basic "psychic" technique: investigate your "victim",
and impress him with knowledge of details that you "couldn't
possibly have known".  

Dee was heavily into Agrippa by the time E.T. appears on the scene.
Consider this quote from /Liber Primus/ (p.26):

   [Fortitudo Dei, i.e. Gabriel:] ... His [Salamian's] name is written
   in the boke which lyeth in the wyndow.
   
   [Dee:] Do you mean Agrippa his boke? And is it there expressed by
   the name SALAMIAN?
   
   [For. Dei] I have sayde.
   
   [Marginal note by Dee:] It is in Elementis Magicis Petri de Abano
   printed with Clavis Agrippae, which was in my oratorie almost under
   my wyndow.

Obviously, it would have been easy for E.T. (who was living in Dee's
house) to pick the name "Salamian" and other tantalizing tidbits from
the book, or from Dee's notes about it.  (And notice that the angel
would not say "Agrippa's book" or "Abano's book", but "the boke which
lyeth in the wyndow".  I bet that E.T. had just skimmed through the
book; not being sure about its title and authorship, he choose to play
it safe...)

    > We can go on to even later works in these angelic calls and find
    > direct references to the Monas and its symbology, which was
    > known only to Dee and a select few.  If anything came from Kelly
    > that Dee had told him, Dee should have recognized the source.

If Kelley was deceiving Dee (as I think he was), then he was playing
for rather high stakes.  We can expect him to put at least as much effort
and brains into his scam as Dee put into his mystic studies.  

I don't think the "angelic" mumbo-jumbo reported by E.T. implies a
University education.  E.T. didn't need to understand Hebrew; it would
have been enough for him to know the alphabet (so as to spell out the
angel's writings), and perhaps a few words.  Note that the angels
often spoke in Latin, but the Hebrew revelations were generally written
and limited to single words.

(By the way, note Dee's complaints, at the beginning of /Liber
Primus/, that his former Scryer Saul could not read the Hebrew letters
fast enough.  Note also that, in the first Call, the angel Annael
eventually switches from clumsy, laconic, and evasive Latin to fluent
English --- only to say goodbye and announce that other angles will
take over as of the next Call. Coincidentally, E.T. appears soon
afterwards. Need I tell you my interpretation of these events?)

    > We can conclude that E.T. was indeed a Uri Geller with an
    > educational level higher than that of the good doctor, which
    > would have been necessary in order to deceive Dee.

E.T. certainly looks like an Uri Geller.  But note that Uri didn't
have a Ph.D., and yet he easily fooled several Ph.Ds., at SRI and
at other top research labs.
    
    > On the other hand, we can also conclude that E.T. was an
    > interesting addition to an invented story, created and written
    > solely by Dee, the purpose of which was to disguise information,
    > both political and scientific.

Could be, but somehow Dee doesn't strike me as such a devious person.
On the contrary, from reading his punctilious accounts of the angelic
sessions, with all his mistakes and doubts carefully recorded, I got
the impression of a sicnerely religious man, with an uncommon
intellectual honesty, such as one expects of a good scientist.
(Indeed, his honesty makes his gullibility more plausible.)  
I cannot imagine him filling books upon books with intentional lies.

His honesty could have been feigned, of course --- but then he would
have had to be a *very* smart and shameless con man.  It just doesn't
seem very likely.  As they say in America, "don't ascribe to malice 
what can be blamed on mere stupidity".

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 06:35:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:26:58 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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I have put together a few samples of 14th century "technical" manuscripts,
in abbreviated Latin, with expanded transcriptions and translations.
They come from two books by Nicole Oresme, a French scholar and cleric.

Athough not directly related to the Voynich manuscript, these samples
provide some context as to the use of abbreviations, handwriting styles,
scribal variations, repetitive language, etc..  

Veteran Voynichologists will be bored, I am sure, but novices like me
may get something out of it...

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/oresme/Welcome.html

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 08:53:02 1997
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Stolfi wondered:

> This posting is about John Dee, and not directly about the
> Voynich. Should I take this discussion off this list?

My humble opinion is that reasonable postings about John
Dee are very welcome here even if the word Voynich is not
mentioned anywhere. Why?

1. There is a realistic chance (though not a certainty)
   that Dee owned the Ms for a while. Perhaps 'we' are
   not likely to all of a sudden find that clue where he
   got it from, but it is useful for all interested in
   the Ms to know more about him.

2. The expert opinion was put forward that the foliation
   numbering is his. Even though I find this hard to
   believe, I am in no position to contest it.

3. Dee or Kelly may have played a role in the origin of
   the VMs...

4. And then there's the invented language Enochian, and
   my big question: *who* invented this in the end:
   Dee or Kelly?

On the subject of Kelly: is he generally considered a
'con man' or is this a tradition in Voynich circles?
In the alchemical world he seems to be treated as 'one
of the guys' and some of his works have been praised at
least for artistic quality.
Just trying to make gold and predict the future from
unlikely clues doesn't mean (for those days) that one
is dishonest. It's only been lately that man has
learned you cannot make gold from base materials, and
even later that you can.

> As they say in America, "don't ascribe to malice
> what can be blamed on mere stupidity".

A certain recent world news item which I will not
discuss in this group seems to be a prime candidate
for requiring to be reminded of this. Repeatedly.

Cheers, Rene


From reeds Tue Sep  9 09:36:16 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:36:16 -0400
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        "The subject of John Dee" (Sep  9, 14:44)
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I think that there is no general scholarly consensus about how much
rationality, duplicity, gullibility, etc, to ascribe to Dee and Kelly in the
matter of the angelic dialogues. One of the recent Dee commentators (I wish I
could remember who) maintains that Dee was always the dominant member of the
pair, drawing his scryers into a kind of "co-dependence" (ugh, I hate myself
for using the term) relationship, somehow using the force of his magnetic
personality to elicit visions on the scryers' parts. It was unpleasant for the
scryer. His son was an unwilling scryer for a while, and Kelly sought to end
the unpleasant situation by coming up with the wife-swapping deal, thinking
that here at least was something that would make Dee baulk. (According to this
one commentator whose name I've forgotten.)

On reflection, I actually like this idea. Kelly comes to Dee in the first
place as a con man, a Uri Geller type. But Dee in effect enslaves Kelly,
forcing him to have visions on command. If Kelly doesn't perform, he gets
kicked out onto the street. Kelly has a problem: he has to invent interesting
stuff for Dee. Much of the stuff in Sloane 3188 reads like travellers' tales:
Mandeville or Marco Polo.  Then Kelly shifts to carpentry and costume projects.
Finally Kelly hits on data, both Enochian text and then just plain random
seeming cipher-text like data, arranged in tables and charts. Presumably Kelly
spends a lot of quiet time alone composing this stuff which he hands over to
Dee in briefer "actions". Kelly's position is a little bit like Jabez
Wilson's: he gets paid for spending a lot of hours at a desk writing out text
uninteresting to the writer. An acceptable compromise, but when in Prague,
Kelly escapes.


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 09:59:05 1997
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Jim writes, among other things:

> If Kelly doesn't perform, he gets kicked out onto the street.
> Kelly has a problem: he has to invent interesting stuff for
> Dee.
(snip)

> Presumably Kelly spends a lot of quiet time alone composing
> this stuff which he hands over to Dee in briefer "actions".
> Kelly's position is a little bit like Jabez Wilson's: he
> gets paid for spending a lot of hours at a desk writing out
> text uninteresting to the writer. An acceptable compromise,
> but when in Prague, Kelly escapes.


... where he becomes dependent on an even more difficult
master. Dee would only fire him upon failure, but Rudolph
would have him executed.
Would Kelly have continued spending hours behind a writing
table, inventing 'interesting stuff'??

This seems almost too obvious....

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep  8 18:02:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 07:46:06 -0700
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rmalek wrote:
 
> There may be much more to the gullability factor than we know when it comes
> to Dee.  Was Dee so gullible as to believe E.T., or was it actually Dee that
> counted on the gullability of his enemies?

According to Donald Laycock, who had been through Dee's diaries when he
was researching for his Enochian Dictionary, Dee was very gullible. To
the extent that he was conned by Kelley into a wife-swapping episode.
(Dee's wife -- Jane, if I remember correctly -- was much more attractive
than Kelley's). How did Kelley do it? The told Dee he had instructions
from the Angels! Here, I quote from the original hardback, p.16:

_A True and Faithful Relation..._ which opened in Lesden in May 1583
closes with the agreement between Dee and Kelley to 'hold their
wives in common' (wife-swapping not being an entirely modern 
prerogative)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 10:59:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:54:55 +0200
Subject: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelly
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Advance apologies for the idle speculation contained herein
:-)

 Dennis wondered:
 > Fascinating!!!  But how then would Dee's page numbers be
 > on the VMs, if Kelley wrote it *after* his relationship
 > with Dee ended?  Perhaps he has some blank vellum that
 > Dee has put page numbers on?  ;-)

 The latter we can exclude :-) (The folio numbers were
 written onto the folded pages, i.e. presumably when the
 VMs was already a book).

 If anybody would have been able to fake Dee's handwriting....

 Or even this had become his style too.... I have a copy
 of a Venetian Ms page from the second half of the 1400's
 where the page nr looks just like the ones in the VMs.
 After all, the VMs numbers show plenty of variation,
 and this one could easily have been one of them. But
 I do know that I don't know what I'm talking about.
 I promise to provide a proper reference for the Ms and
 a gif, if anyone is interested.

 Another objection is the famous 'hieroglyphics' Dee's
 son mentioned...

 > I kind of like this!  I wonder: were Dee or Kelley ever
 > known to have possessed alchemical herbals?  How about
 > balneological drawings?

 I am sure for this Bruno may have been able to lend
 a helping hand :-) Or Kelly 'nicked' some of Bruno's
 Mss too....

 I think the timing in Prague is essentially as follows:

 1584: Dee to Prague
 1588: Dee leaves Bohemia but he was not in Prague over
       the last two years.
 1588: Bruno in Prague for 6 months
 1595: Kelly dies trying to escape from Rudolph's castle


 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 09:26:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 08:23:41 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley (WAS Re: John Dee was not quack)
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
> Could be, but somehow Dee doesn't strike me as such a devious person.
> On the contrary, from reading his punctilious accounts of the angelic
> sessions, with all his mistakes and doubts carefully recorded, I got
> the impression of a sicnerely religious man, with an uncommon
> intellectual honesty, such as one expects of a good scientist.
> (Indeed, his honesty makes his gullibility more plausible.)
> I cannot imagine him filling books upon books with intentional lies.

	I am not very knowledgeable about Dee, but this is my impression as
well.  If so, that makes it very unlikely that Dee would have written
the VMs.  There would have to have been another series of sessions with
the angels, of which we have no record at all.  It seems to be fairly
well accepted that Dee paginated the VMs, so he had it in his possession
at one time.  

	I take the liberty of quoting a post by Jacques Guy of 11 Dec 91:

"Don Laycock's book contains the complete corpus of all Enochian texts,
with interlinear translations from Dee's diaries, an Enochian-English
and English-Enochian dictionary, with a pronunciation key, and the
story of how Enochian came about. What it does not contain is Don
Laycock's personal opinion: Enochian is a fabrication by Kelley, who
was a con-artist a la Uri Geller; the phonology of Enochian is nothing
but that of Elizabethan English of the period; the vocabulary is a
mish-mash of distorted Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and names of spirits and
demons, all of which Kelley was likely to have picked up rummaging
through Dee's copious library; the grammar makes no sense, and is proof
that the language is a fabrication.

"How do I know? Don Laycock and I were in the same department of the
Australian National University for 15 years, three or four doors apart,
belonged to the same poker school, and talked extensively about strange
languages, including that of the Voynich manuscript. In his "Complete
Enochian Dictionary" Don is careful to keep neutral on the matter of
the authenticity of Enochian for this understandable reason that Askin
is a publisher of occult books, and his readers would not have been
amused at reading Don's true opionions."

	I've always wondered whether the Enochian language might have been a
spontaneous, glossalalic production by Kelley in the trance state, like
Helene Smith's "Martian" language.  If Kelley perpetrated such an
elaborate hoax on Dee, it seems to me he probably had to fabricate the
Enochian texts consciously as well.  Again, I don't know the details.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 12:05:04 1997
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:01:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley (WAS Re: John Dee was not quack)
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On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Dennis wrote:

> 	I've always wondered whether the Enochian language might have been a
> spontaneous, glossalalic production by Kelley in the trance state, like
> Helene Smith's "Martian" language.  If Kelley perpetrated such an
> elaborate hoax on Dee, it seems to me he probably had to fabricate the
> Enochian texts consciously as well.  Again, I don't know the details.  

While Laycock's work on Enochian makes good sense as far as its linguistic
features go (and his opinion about its origin is actually fairly clear if
one reads with one's eyes open, though it is courteously muted and
implicit rather than explicit), it doesn't seem likely to me that Enochian
(and the scrying sessions during which it was produced) were simply
fraudulent -- unless, that is, one assumes a priori that all such things
are always and only fraudulent (the result of a conscious program of
deception).

With something like the Dee records, or for that matter the Voynich ms,
onme has to be careful not to cut off investigation prematurely by taking
as demonstrated an assumption that makes investigation unnecessary.


R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 12:11:05 1997
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:08:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The subject of John Dee
In-Reply-To: <9709090936.ZM18135@research.att.com>
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On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jim Reeds wrote:

> 
> On reflection, I actually like this idea. Kelly comes to Dee in the first
> place as a con man, a Uri Geller type. But Dee in effect enslaves Kelly,
> forcing him to have visions on command. If Kelly doesn't perform, he gets
> kicked out onto the street. Kelly has a problem: he has to invent interesting
> stuff for Dee. 
. . . .
> Presumably Kelly
> spends a lot of quiet time alone composing this stuff which he hands over to
> Dee in briefer "actions". Kelly's position is a little bit like Jabez
> Wilson's: he gets paid for spending a lot of hours at a desk writing out text
> uninteresting to the writer. An acceptable compromise, but when in Prague,
> Kelly escapes.

Plausible; it is also possible that Dee was something of a visionary with
a fascinating and learned line of talk, who kept at least some people
feeling that if they only stayed around a little longer they would come
right to the verge of some revelation, and then cross that boundary ...

Again, it is quite possible that what developed was something like a folie
a deux (with the potential to expand beyond the original pair).

To use a grammatical metaphor, there are a number of possible paradigms
with which one could construe the evidence; which one gives the best
reading is not easy to say.



R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 10:17:05 1997
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:14:51 -0700
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> > Kelly ... 
> > gets paid for spending a lot of hours at a desk writing out
> > text uninteresting to the writer. An acceptable compromise,
> > but when in Prague, Kelly escapes.
> 
> ... where he becomes dependent on an even more difficult
> master. Dee would only fire him upon failure, but Rudolph
> would have him executed.
> Would Kelly have continued spending hours behind a writing
> table, inventing 'interesting stuff'??
> 
> This seems almost too obvious....

	Fascinating!!!  But how then would Dee's page numbers be on the VMs, if
Kelley wrote it *after* his relationship with Dee ended?  Perhaps he has
some blank vellum that Dee has put page numbers on?  ;-)

	I kind of like this!  I wonder: were Dee or Kelley ever known to have
possessed alchemical herbals?  How about balneological drawings?

Dennis

From reeds Tue Sep  9 12:22:17 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9709091222.ZM2659@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:22:17 -0400
In-Reply-To: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
        "Re: The subject of John Dee" (Sep  9,  9:08)
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On Sep 9,  9:08, R. Brzustowicz wrote:
>
> To use a grammatical metaphor, there are a number of possible paradigms
> with which one could construe the evidence; which one gives the best
> reading is not easy to say.

Of course.  "Kelly, the prior-day Geller, tricks Dee" is not the only reading.


>
> Plausible; it is also possible that Dee was something of a visionary with
> a fascinating and learned line of talk, who kept at least some people
> feeling that if they only stayed around a little longer they would come
> right to the verge of some revelation, and then cross that boundary ...
>

Outch.  All members of this list must share something like this feeling... 
 




-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 13:53:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:50:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
cc: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley (WAS Re: John Dee was not quack)
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On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Dennis wrote:

> 	I've always wondered whether the Enochian language might have been a
> spontaneous, glossalalic production by Kelley in the trance state, like
> Helene Smith's "Martian" language.  If Kelley perpetrated such an
> elaborate hoax on Dee, it seems to me he probably had to fabricate the
> Enochian texts consciously as well.  Again, I don't know the details.  

To add a perhaps useful distinction to the discussion, glossolalia
(speaking in tongues, usu. religious) may be compared to xenoglossy
(foreign speaking, of an actual language one ought not know according to
usual experience): where glossolalia is semantically empty though perhaps
emotionally full, xenoglossy can be semantically full as well, according
to such reports as exist. Xenoglossy usually crops up as 'evidence' for
reincarnation, such as a small child in India who's never been out of
their village but who knows a language of two valleys away, and nobody
from this village knows anybody over there.

My co-teacher Matt Bronson worked for a while on "The Rosemary Xenoglossy
Case," where the language spoken in trance by a Victorian matron was taken
to possibly be ancient Egyptian -- replete with its spoken vowels! Alas,
the funding ran out before anything definitive emerged. A popular case in
the '50s that some may remember was "The Search for Bridey Murphy," in
which Gaelic was involved, I believe.

While nobody in linguistics, even I!, would be willing to swear that
xenoglossy has ever actually happened (it is what I have called the soft
consciousness underbelly of linguistics, where the semantic fields and
phonetic systems of a language can be held without being learned), it is
curious that the same phenomenon exactly shows up in cases which used to
be labeled 'multiple personality disorder'.

A number of popular books on MPD give auto- and biographical accounts of
multiples who have at least one personality that speaks a language which
the 'body' has no business knowing -- in one case, a personality who spoke
fluent Serbo-Croatian with the vocabulary of a WWI munitions expert.

When I see the exact same phenomenon surfacing in two completely different
contexts, I begin looking at it more closely.

So is Helene Smith's Martian more glossolalic or xenoglossic? Either way,
it's not likely to be a hoax -- just recordings of trance exploration, as
in "For whatever it's worth, here it is!"

PS -- how like our monolingual/monocultural dominant society that the
first time we hear of 'multiple personalities,' it's in a pathological
interpretation! As far as I'm concerned, looking at the whole thing thru a
linguistic lens, there are also 'positive multiple personalities' all
around us. The difference is whether the personalities have clear and open
communication with each other or are pathologically isolated. Bronson, for
instance, can get along in over a dozen languages and speaks most of those
fluently. He says that he has created a separate cultural personality for
himself in each of these languages, with language-appropriate names
(Mateus, etc) for each one, yet they all communicate with each other.

warm regards to all, moonhawk

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 16:56:20 1997
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
cc: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley (WAS Re: John Dee was not quack)
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On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Dennis wrote:

> Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> > 
> > To add a perhaps useful distinction to the discussion, glossolalia
> > (speaking in tongues, usu. religious) may be compared to xenoglossy
> > (foreign speaking, of an actual language one ought not know according to
> > usual experience): where glossolalia is semantically empty though perhaps
> > emotionally full, xenoglossy can be semantically full as well, according
> > to such reports as exist. Xenoglossy usually crops up as 'evidence' for
> > reincarnation, such as a small child in India who's never been out of
> > their village but who knows a language of two valleys away, and nobody
> > from this village knows anybody over there.
> > 
> > My co-teacher Matt Bronson worked for a while on "The Rosemary Xenoglossy
> > Case," where the language spoken in trance by a Victorian matron was taken
> > to possibly be ancient Egyptian -- replete with its spoken vowels! Alas,
> > the funding ran out before anything definitive emerged. A popular case in
> > the '50s that some may remember was "The Search for Bridey Murphy," in
> > which Gaelic was involved, I believe.
> 
> 	I read about a case of xenoglossy where a man recited texts in rabbinic
> Hebrew that he shouldn't have known.  It turned out that there had been
> a Talmudic scholar in his household when he was a boy, who would recite
> Talmudic texts.  He had remembered them subconsciously.  IIRC, the
> Bridey Murphy case was supposed to have been the same thing - childhood
> experiences. 

Yes, so it seems, and could even be true for the Serbo-Croatian speaking
personality with WWI munitions expert vocabulary.

> > So is Helene Smith's Martian more glossolalic or xenoglossic? Either way,
> > it's not likely to be a hoax -- just recordings of trance exploration, as
> > in "For whatever it's worth, here it is!"
> 
> 	With your definition of glossalalia as semantically empty - which is
> what I intended - "Martian" is neither.  Martian was a meaningful human
> language, but it was not consciously constructed like Esperanto.  Helene
> Smith spoke it under hypnosis, and talked as though it came from psychic
> contact from Mars, also drawing pictures of Mars.  There are some
> examples of Martian in the VMs list archives.  It is a calque of French
> - a text in Martian corresponds word-for-word syntactically to the
> French translation - and French was Helene Smith native language.  So
> obviously Pathfinder and Sojourner will not encounter anyone who speaks
> it!  :-)  The words vaguely resembled French.  

Ah! This is exciting information for me, a third category to add to my
lectures on such. My European thought-patterns race for a label (name it
and it's yours) to plop over it, like xenolalia or xenocalquing. ;-)

> 	The points are 1) it is well-documented, 2) it was meaningful, not like
> glossalalia, and 3) it was not deliberately, consciously fabricated.  As
> I said, I wonder if Enochian was the same thing.

yes, very interesting to have at least these three frames to compare
unknowns to. If we knew whether VMs text was originally spoken (language
for the ears) and then put into writing or just directly written (language
for the eyes), that would help. Glossolalia and xenoglossy are typically
spoken phenomena that occasionally get written down; automatic writing
does not necessarily go through an auditory loop first. I take it we are
to understand about Enochian that the angels spoke it, perhaps inaudibly
to others, and then it was written down -- is that right? -- and so
somewhat comparable to Swedenborg's famous "On the speech of men and
angels," in which S. notices how perfectly formed all the thoughts are
when they are imparted by the angels whole into his mind, even falling
grammatically correctly into the patterns of his language.

warm regards, moonhawk



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 16:11:02 1997
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Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> 
> To add a perhaps useful distinction to the discussion, glossolalia
> (speaking in tongues, usu. religious) may be compared to xenoglossy
> (foreign speaking, of an actual language one ought not know according to
> usual experience): where glossolalia is semantically empty though perhaps
> emotionally full, xenoglossy can be semantically full as well, according
> to such reports as exist. Xenoglossy usually crops up as 'evidence' for
> reincarnation, such as a small child in India who's never been out of
> their village but who knows a language of two valleys away, and nobody
> from this village knows anybody over there.
> 
> My co-teacher Matt Bronson worked for a while on "The Rosemary Xenoglossy
> Case," where the language spoken in trance by a Victorian matron was taken
> to possibly be ancient Egyptian -- replete with its spoken vowels! Alas,
> the funding ran out before anything definitive emerged. A popular case in
> the '50s that some may remember was "The Search for Bridey Murphy," in
> which Gaelic was involved, I believe.

	I read about a case of xenoglossy where a man recited texts in rabbinic
Hebrew that he shouldn't have known.  It turned out that there had been
a Talmudic scholar in his household when he was a boy, who would recite
Talmudic texts.  He had remembered them subconsciously.  IIRC, the
Bridey Murphy case was supposed to have been the same thing - childhood
experiences. 

> So is Helene Smith's Martian more glossolalic or xenoglossic? Either way,
> it's not likely to be a hoax -- just recordings of trance exploration, as
> in "For whatever it's worth, here it is!"

	With your definition of glossalalia as semantically empty - which is
what I intended - "Martian" is neither.  Martian was a meaningful human
language, but it was not consciously constructed like Esperanto.  Helene
Smith spoke it under hypnosis, and talked as though it came from psychic
contact from Mars, also drawing pictures of Mars.  There are some
examples of Martian in the VMs list archives.  It is a calque of French
- a text in Martian corresponds word-for-word syntactically to the
French translation - and French was Helene Smith native language.  So
obviously Pathfinder and Sojourner will not encounter anyone who speaks
it!  :-)  The words vaguely resembled French.  

	The points are 1) it is well-documented, 2) it was meaningful, not like
glossalalia, and 3) it was not deliberately, consciously fabricated.  As
I said, I wonder if Enochian was the same thing.

> PS -- how like our monolingual/monocultural dominant society that the
> first time we hear of 'multiple personalities,' it's in a pathological
> interpretation! As far as I'm concerned, looking at the whole thing thru a
> linguistic lens, there are also 'positive multiple personalities' all
> around us. The difference is whether the personalities have clear and open
> communication with each other or are pathologically isolated. Bronson, for
> instance, can get along in over a dozen languages and speaks most of those
> fluently. He says that he has created a separate cultural personality for
> himself in each of these languages, with language-appropriate names
> (Mateus, etc) for each one, yet they all communicate with each other.

	Interesting thought!  Each language certainly corresponds to a
different culture, so that makes sense.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 19:20:36 1997
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Subject: Martian (WAS:Re: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley)
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Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> 
> >       With your definition of glossalalia as semantically empty - which is
> > what I intended - "Martian" is neither.  Martian was a meaningful human
> > language, but it was not consciously constructed like Esperanto.  Helene
> > Smith spoke it under hypnosis, and talked as though it came from psychic
> > contact from Mars, also drawing pictures of Mars.  There are some
> > examples of Martian in the VMs list archives.  It is a calque of French
> > - a text in Martian corresponds word-for-word syntactically to the
> > French translation - and French was Helene Smith native language.  So
> > obviously Pathfinder and Sojourner will not encounter anyone who speaks
> > it!  :-)  The words vaguely resembled French.
> 
> Ah! This is exciting information for me, a third category to add to my
> lectures on such. My European thought-patterns race for a label (name it
> and it's yours) to plop over it, like xenolalia or xenocalquing. ;-)

	Neolalia?  Cryptolalia?  I had suggested "spontaneous artificial
languages" earlier.  

	Here are the full references on it.  I've looked at the French version
but haven't read the whole thing.  Jacques has posted to the list about
Martian.

    Theodore Flournoy, *Des Indes a la Planete Mars: Etude sur un cas de
somnambulisme avec glossolalie, avec une introduction d'Helene
Boursinhac.
(From the Indies to the Planet Mars: A Study of a Case of Somnambulism
with Glossalia, with an introduction by Helene Boursinhac.)* (Slatkine
Reprints, Geneve-Paris, 1983.) (Reimpression de l'edition de Geneve,
1899.
Reprint of the Geneva edition of 1899.)  ISBN 2-05-100499-4.

    Flournoy, Theodore - FROM INDIA TO THE PLANET MARS.   A Case of
Multiple Personality with Imaginary Language.  Edited by Sonu
Shamdasani.  Princeton 1994, 335 p., preface by C.G. Jung.  This is
the story of a medium who claimed to visit Mars and the Martians,
painted landscapes of the Martian worlds, and transcribed the Martian
alphabet (reproduced in full here).  Cloth US$ 49.50, paperback US$
16.95.

> I take it we are
> to understand about Enochian that the angels spoke it, perhaps inaudibly
> to others, and then it was written down -- is that right? -- and so
> somewhat comparable to Swedenborg's famous "On the speech of men and
> angels," in which S. notices how perfectly formed all the thoughts are
> when they are imparted by the angels whole into his mind, even falling
> grammatically correctly into the patterns of his language.

	You'll have to ask the experts here!  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep  9 21:08:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 21:04:14 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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    Well, I'm wasn't up on John Dee --- until today at least!  I
particularly like where Rayman is going with the Pre-med idea even
though I'm (very) reluctant to follow into the encryption arena.
Dennis, did you ever run Monkey on Hawaiin text? I recall your
discussing the idea, but not whether any comparative statistics are
available.  I'm not trying to re-open an asian/pacific connection - only
trying to establish whether an alphabet with only 7 consonants and 5
vowels compares well with the VMs' entropy.

                                                        John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 00:32:07 1997
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>    Well, I'm wasn't up on John Dee --- until today at least!  I
>particularly like where Rayman is going with the Pre-med idea even
>though I'm (very) reluctant to follow into the encryption arena.
>Dennis, did you ever run Monkey on Hawaiin text? I recall your
>discussing the idea, but not whether any comparative statistics are
>available.  I'm not trying to re-open an asian/pacific connection - only
>trying to establish whether an alphabet with only 7 consonants and 5
>vowels compares well with the VMs' entropy.
>
>                                                        John.



Well John,

 I just now sent my message containing my personal evisceration of the
Hawaiian approach, and your message comes up on the screen.  Please,
Please!!!!  Do not take my comments personally!!!!  Just tell me the folio
and I will draw hula skirts on all the pretty ladies and send it to you for
signatory response, to love, cherish, and treasure for all my days.  Please
forgive me.


Regards,  Rayman
(SORRY,  REALLY!!!)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 00:29:02 1997
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    > [Grove:] Dennis, did you ever run Monkey on Hawaiin text? I recall your
    > discussing the idea, but not whether any comparative statistics are
    > available.  I'm not trying to re-open an asian/pacific connection - only
    > trying to establish whether an alphabet with only 7 consonants and 5
    > vowels compares well with the VMs' entropy.

I am missing something in these discussions about the entropy of VMs.

As I understand it, the (symbol) entropy H_k is a measure of the average
information provided by each symbol, given the k-1 previous symbols.
"Information" here includes not only "meaningful" information but also
the "noise" added by variant encodings, meaningless fillers,
transcription errors, etc..

Therefore, the symbol entropies of a text depend exclusively on the
*encoding*, and not on the language.  With simple changes in the
encoding, one can vary the H_k of any given text all the way
from almost zero to almost log_2 N, where N is the number of distinct
symbols.  This is true for both lossy and lossless encodings, noisy
and noiseless.

It follows that we cannot distinguish between Latin and English, say,
by looking at the symbol entropies, UNLESS we know that the words were
spelled according to the language's standard spelling, AND that each
letter was mapped to a single distinct symbol.  (In other words, the
symbol entropies characterize the language only for simple
substitution cyphers.)

As for the VMs, its alphabet is apparently the result of conscious
rational design; in which case the author is likely to have
rationalized the spelling, too.  If the language is English, he may
have used some phonetic spelling, based on his linguistic prejudices
(An Italian trying to write phonetic English would probably spell
"white" as "uait"; whereas an Englishman would probably spell it
"wyt".).  If the language is Italian, he may have used different
letters for open and closed "e", special letters for "gn", and "ch",
plumes instead of repetitions for double consonants ("be'lo" instead
of "bello"), and so on.  Obviously, these choices would have
affected the entropy, in either direction.

In any case, the author probably made extensive use of abbreviations
(as was the custom in those times, especially for Latin): not only for
common word endings, but possibly also for common letter groups.  If
he did, the entropy is likely to have increased a lot---after all,
that is precisely the purpose of abbreviation.

Then, the author mapped each letter to a combination of pen strokes;
and we still do not know how to parse the strokes back into the
letters of the language.  This step may have either increased or
decreased the entropy, depending on the efficiency of the original
spelling system, and on how well he had tuned his alphabet to the
language.

Finally, the modern transcribers re-grouped those strokes, somewhat
arbitrarily, and re-coded them into bytes, adding some noise in the
process.  Again, the entropy may have increased or decreased. (The
entropy whould have increased, for example, if the same stroke was
read in two different ways, randomly; or a common letter pair was
mistaken for a single letter, and transcribed as such.  The
entropy would have decreased if the transcriber failed to discriminate
between two distinct strokes, or if a common single letter was
transcribed with two bytes.)

Thus, the entropies of the transcribed text do not tell us anything
about the entropies of the original language --- even if no
cryptography is involved.

The symbol entropies might help us figure out what are the Voynich
"letters", but only in a very weak sense.  Assuming the VMs is not a
cypher, a candidate for the VMs alphabet is plausible only if the its
corresponding entropies are within the range for natural languages ---
spoken and written, plain and abbreviated.  Unfortunately, this range
is rather broad, and it is easy to tweak a completely bogus alphabet
so that its entropy looks "natural".

For this reason, I see little hope of cracking the VMs "from the
bottom up", i,e, starting from the alphabet and encoding system. 
I think the "top-down" approach is more promising: take the word
as the basic unit, find the meaning of a few words, identify the 
language, and only then go for the alphabet and cypher.
        
--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 01:05:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 21:34:59 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: Martian (WAS:Re: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley)
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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>> I take it we are
>> to understand about Enochian that the angels spoke it, perhaps inaudibly
>> to others, and then it was written down -- is that right? -- and so
>> somewhat comparable to Swedenborg's famous "On the speech of men and
>> angels," in which S. notices how perfectly formed all the thoughts are
>> when they are imparted by the angels whole into his mind, even falling
>> grammatically correctly into the patterns of his language.
>
> You'll have to ask the experts here!

Something that has interested me greatly is what product you guys can
produce by applying all your language algorithms to the Enochian tongue,
especially page by page from liber sextus et sanctus.  I have run
cryptologic calculations on these, which helped me to establish clear
divisions between sections, but I wonder what your particular expertise in
linguistic mathematics can discern from each of these layers.  Has anyone
given it any thought?  It is supposed to be a language, is it not?


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 03:47:02 1997
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Frogguy wrote:

> Yes, you are quite right. Not so very
> long ago, Dennis (I think it was Dennis,
> I ought to check, but I am too lazy),
> Dennis demonstrated how, by respelling
> Latin using lots of multiple letters for
> single sounds (just like German "sch" -- or
> Brazilian "ou", "nh" and "lh"), you could
> make it exhibit the same entropy as Voynichese.

Help!
I have never seen that, and I would really like
to. I have seen reduced entropies but never
anything remotely like Voynichese, except when
major changes were made like the introduction
of long strings 'xyxyxyxy' every third character
or so.

I think this is relevant. I was just about to
reply to Stolfi that, though he is obviously
correct about the noise and encoding factors,
the VMs 2nd-order entropy is _that far off_, I
still see some hope of exploiting it in order
to find out how or why our choice of recomposing
the strokes is 'wrong'.

One of those things:
the Currier 'M' is almost exclusively preceded
by 'A'. When it's not, there is usually an 'O'
(let's say one 20th of the cases).  There are
just too many 'OM'-s to say that 'AM' is really
only one unit. Furthermore, the 'A' is not always
followed by an 'M' but most of the other characters
that can follow it (N, J, R, E) follow roughly the same
pattern: almost only after 'A' or 'O', with varying
ratios.
I have not yet seen any proposed scheme on how to
do that. How did the Voynich writer do it??
Because it's backwards.

Let's take the 'word' SOE. S is frequently followed
by O and O frequently by E. How many 'things'
(phonemes?, lexemes?) do we have here? Is it
(SO)E or S(OE) or is (SOE) one thing????

Weirder still is 4OE.

If Voynichese was generated by casting dice (physically
or mentally), this should be a frequent word, because
both 4O and OE are frequent. And it does exist, but
it's only common in two of the sections....but I
digress.

I'm not yet ready to stop worrying about the h2 value,
despite all the arguments why the number may not be
too significant.

Cheers, Rene


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Subject: Pre-med, really this time
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John Grove wrote:

>  I particularly like where Rayman is going with the
> Pre-med idea even though I'm (very) reluctant to follow
> into the encryption arena.
I like the arguments for rejecting Dee as the VMs writer
but we have to be careful since we cannot read a single
word. I think some of the other conclusions or
suggestions are a bit premature, but I look forward to
reading the full story and will eat my words if necessary.

Perhaps also I misunderstood what exactly Rayman meant.
If his theory is that the person had knowledge equivalent
with that of a ME medical BSc, but not necessarily
recently followed this course, then I would find that
easier to accept. I think that would disqualify A.Askham
as well though, who did not have the full degree but
probably knew all there was to know. On this question
I will stand corrected too.

As far as maths, physics are concerned, they seem
mostly absent but the writer knew some basic astronomy
and knew how to draw circles and divide them into 12
segments. I don't know what that means one way or another...

If hiding the meaning was not the purpose
of the VMs (but instead it's an attempt at a universal
language), why is there not a single word of explanation
in plain language?? I.e. if hiding the meaning was
not the purpose of the VMs, the author failed miserably.

Another issue is the possible age of the VMs writer.
Panofsky expressed some surprise that the VMs writer
had escaped the influence of Renaissance. Somehow,
reading between the lines, I had always thought that the
writer might be someone using an older tradition, i.e.
someone of a certain age. I'd be happy to hear other
opinions if anybody has any.

So do we have a med-school dropout turned quack
and a little eccentric with age? Why not....

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 05:02:02 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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On 10 Sep 97 at 1:21, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> For this reason, I see little hope of cracking the VMs "from the
> bottom up", i,e, starting from the alphabet and encoding system. 
> I think the "top-down" approach is more promising: take the word
> as the basic unit, find the meaning of a few words, identify the 
> language, and only then go for the alphabet and cypher.

It may well be, but I wish it was that simple! The only difficulty 
that nobody is knows whether words are words or what one earth they 
mean! As meaningless as it may look, I have been very puzzled by the 
low 2nd order entropy. Furthermore thinking this low entropy that it 
may come from a variety of possible schemes (coding, abbreviation, 
noise, repetition or whatever) is (I think) a healthy exercise.

I took a look at the old text in Jorge's site and I was very puzzled 
by the similarities to some vms "letters".
I could not read almost anything without the help of the 
translation. If the vms is written in a similar sort of abbreviated 
(and non-consistent) code, it is going to be a painful road! :-(

cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 07:35:01 1997
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    > [Ren:] the writer knew some basic astronomy and knew how to
    > draw circles and divide them into 12 segments. I don't know what
    > that means one way or another...

Probably not much; that seems very elementary stuff, even
for medieval standards.

    > If hiding the meaning was not the purpose of the VMs ..., why is
    > there not a single word of explanation in plain language??
    > I.e. if hiding the meaning was not the purpose of the VMs, the
    > author failed miserably.

Ok, here is another (yes, another) theory:

  The youngest nephew of the Great Mogul of Outer Mongolia goes to
  Europe to study medicine.  Fascinated by Western `science,' he sets
  out to write a medical textbook for his fellows Outer Mongolians,
  patterned after the standard Western textbooks he is studying from.
  
  He writes this "ur-Voynich" entirely in Outer Mongolian, of course,
  without a single word in latin or Greek---since any such citations
  would be lost on his Outer Mongolian readers.  However, instead of
  the traditional yak-shaped Outer Mongolian ideographs, he invents a
  new alphabetic script, which he is certain will be adopted by all
  his compatriots as soon as they realize how wonderful it is.

  But he then takes to drinking, squanders all his money at dice,
  flunks med school, and gets killed in a tavern fight.  After a few
  changes of hands, his textbook gets mistaken by a compendium of exotic
  lore. Then a copy is made, by two or more scribes who naturally
  cannot understand it --- possibly by order of John Dee.  The
  original eventually goes `up in smoke,' while the copy is sold to
  Rudolph II and ends up at Beinecke.
  
Of course, you may replace "Outer Mongolia" by any sufficiently
remote country in the world.
  
I think this "textbook for Mongolian readers" theory explains a lot of
things: the lack of Greek and Latin quotations, the overal consistency
of style, the "natural language" feel, the bizarre alphabet and
grammatical structure, our failure to recognize any words, the strange
themes in the figures and diagrams.  It may also explain the lack of
recognizable numbers (in chinese, for instance, numbers are usually
written out in words --- because of the ideographic writing, they are
just as concise as arabic numerals).

Note that the copying step would remove some of the obvious glitches
in this theory. If the VMs is a copy, then stylistic features (such as
the "caucasian" look of the naked ladies, the italic handwriting, the
hat styles, the crooked geometric constructions, etc) are likely to
come from the copists, and not from the original author.  Moreover,
the copying step would explain the interleaving of the two hands, the
lack of corrections (in spite of what look like errors), and possibly
some of the repetitions and near-repetitions.

Ok, sorry for throwing in so many theories and so little proof. 
It is time to go back to my statistical hacking...  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 07:47:02 1997
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Just one last thought: If we assume that the VMs has been encrypted 
because its contents is "dangerous" in some way, then we must
also consider the possibility that the drawings are just a
decoy, to mislead the inquisitors about the true subject of the book.

(But I prefer to ignore this possibility until there is proof that the
VMs is indeed encrypted.)

--stolfi

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Just a few more things and then I'll shut up for today :-)

> The fact is we have expert opinions covering virtually
> the entire range of authorship and dating, from the 13th
> century on up to Dee's own hand.  Some opinions are more
> popular, but until the truth is discovered the vote is still
> out on what is what.

This is true, but for some unpopular theories there
are good reasons why they are unpopular. I don't think you
really consider the 13-14C as good candidates either. As
D'Imperio shows in crude fashion, 15-16C are almost a
consensus, and a later date would either point to a
deliberate fake, or has been suggested related with Dee's
writing of the folio nrs and the fact that these were done
'generally at the time of writing'. This 'generally' is not
very hard evidence in my ever-so-humble opinion.

> .. many handwritten books did mimic the Italian style ..

which also is against a pre-15C origin.

> The two hands questions has not yet been resolved.  At
> least two different systems (or uses of a system) is
> evident, but actual hands can only come from the study
> of the calligraphy.

Currier admitted to not being an expert. He also refers
with incredulity to a real expert stating that the handwriting
is from one person only. (See the "Currier paper", section
'A New Slant on the Problem'). Without settling on one option
or the other I would be inclined to doubt, with Rayman,
about the multiple authors. There are also more than just
the obvious differences (size and slant angle) between
hands 1 and 2. Look at two arbitrary Herbal A pages and
note how differences in size, line spacing, character
proportion etc show up there too. Gabriel and I both
failed to see the hands 3, 4, X, Y etc.

>> Yes! Where are the numbers?!?!?

Just because we can't see them doesn't mean they
are not there.

>    > He clearly knew Latin and had some dealing with at least Latin
>    > translations of Greek authors.
>Why do you say so? (Of course, it it hard to imagine a medieval
>book writer who *didn't* know Latin.)

> He must have been aware of the Greek authors through latin
> translations because of the dragon's dew folio (25v), the
> heads depicted on folio 33r..

Are you thinking of any Greek herbal authors specifically?

> The statistical evidence is not consistent until the
> transcription is consistent - something Gabriel and Rene
> must have seen some time ago.

And we will not have been the first...

> As for the author possibly writing the VMs while in school, I
> could go on for pages about this, but in short, he must have
> written some of it while in school, at least the herbal
> section.

Most 'real' herbals contain a collection of information
I find mind-boggling. They must have been compiled from
many sources. An 18-year-old could not have done it.
Now since our VMs herbal seems to be original, I think
one of the following should be true:
Either: it was done after a long time of study
Or: it is not such a good herbal
In the second option could be included 'an herbal with
a difference' (e.g. one which deals with plant features
rather than plants).

> Follow this logic briefly  (snip)

you swapped some sections around but that is totally
irrelevant. More importantly, the one truly original
section, usually called cosmological, does not seem to
fit in very well.

Furthermore, I don't think much can be concluded
about the last section. The language is similar to the
biological section and the drawings to the zodiac
section. (Is there any known use of 'stars' as the
equivalent of the modern 'bullet'?) We are forced
to use guesswork here.

A pet peeve is that we have no evidence that there
is anything astrological in the VMs. The zodiac was
used extensively in astronomy. The harvesting of
plants when certain constellations are in the sky
is really an astronomical feat. The difference between
astronomy and astrology can only be judged from the text.

Finally one other thing that intrigues me: the containers
shown in the pharma section. They don't resemble any
alchemists equipment or in fact any other flask or
container I have ever seen. Are they imaginary?
Were they drawn by someone who never saw an alchemist's
lab? Or an alchemist Ms with illustrations?
This is not totally incompatible with the pre-med school
idea.
My wife one day looked at these pages and suggested
cosmetics flasks (made of glass). That I found a
really intriguing thought, fitting with the feminine
nature of some of the sections, and with the baths.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 08:53:02 1997
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Subject: Re: Pre-med, really this time
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    Hi!

> Ok, here is another (yes, another) theory:

> The youngest nephew of the Great Mogul of Outer Mongolia
> goes to Europe to study medicine.

(snip)

> Of course, you may replace "Outer Mongolia" by any
> sufficiently remote country in the world.

Did you ever hear of a chap called Ulugh Begh (you
guessed correctly that I'm not sure about the spelling
:-) )

Just shows that there were quite a few interesting
people in those days and that international contacts
did exist in science.

Cheers, Rene

PS I am sure Rayman will not like your theory :-)


From reeds Wed Sep 10 10:02:31 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9709101002.ZM850@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:02:31 -0400
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Toresella" (Sep 10,  8:43)
References: <01INGGTLFW0G9KM65H@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> 
	<3416C028.73EF@micro-net.com>
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On Sep 10,  8:43, Dennis wrote:
> Subject: Toresella
...
> 
> 	For the record: what Toresella actually said was:
> 
> "The codex is difficult to date but the greater part of its
> students think that it dates to the years 1460-1480."  
> 
> In other words, that wasn't his *own* opinion.  This may be an error or
> a typo
... 

But in fact this IS his opinion, or at least, that's what he told me (plus or
minus a few decades) a day or two after seeing the VMS. I reported the
conversation to this list on 10 December 1995.



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From reeds Wed Sep 10 10:51:40 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9709101051.ZM9708@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:51:40 -0400
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Re: Toresella" (Sep 10,  9:16)
References: <01INGGTLFW0G9KM65H@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> 
	<3416C028.73EF@micro-net.com> 
	<9709101002.ZM850@research.att.com> 
	<3416C7E8.57E6@micro-net.com>
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On Sep 10,  9:16, Dennis wrote:
about what I wrote about what Toresella said:


>    ....  What you had: "The VMS is, with certainty, authentic;
> not a fake.  It was manufactured in the period 1450-1460.  It was in
> France for a while: the month names
> on the zodiac diagrams are in French in a French handwriting.  The book
> itself comes from Italy; the mysterious writing is done in a round 
> humanistic style found only in Italy in the second half of the 1400's."  
> 
> 	It would be interesting to know what specific "humanistic style" 
> he had in mind; does it have a name?  It always puzzled me how T. could 
> specify such a narrow time range, given the uncertainties here.  
> 

The shifting of the date range from 1450-60 to 1460-80 is a bit bothersome.

The "humanistic style" question is easy to answer. In about 1450 a new kind of
handwriting arose in northern Italy, consiously associated at the time with the
Humanist movement (Petrarch, the recovery & revival of classical MSS &
learning; the literary aspect of the Italian Renaissance). This handwriting was
based on classical Roman models (some MSS, I think, but also on samples seen on
stone monuments) and was a model for our printed "Roman" typefaces. Unlike the
"textura" (aka "bastarda" or "gothic") handwriting common througout Europe in
the period 1100-1400, which can be seen in Stofi's web pages), humanist hand is
easy for us to read. It fell out of popularity in a few decades, however, being
supplanted by the "Italic" hand, which is still in use. This brief period of
popularity is what allows Toresella's puzzling narrow range of dates. Unlike
the slanted Italic hand, the humanist hand is upright. Round letters seem
equally round on both sides. The book by Tradechino I mentioned earlier this
year is written in this kind of handwriting; there are samples in Bischoff's
"Latin Paleography". (Which I don't have at the office, so I cannot check any
of the details above.) After Toresella pointed it out to me I am completely
convinced that the VMS script was written by a user of the humanist hand.


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 10:17:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:13:04 +0000
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Status: OR

On 10 Sep 97 at 10:47, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> Can we say that we know the Voynichese for "Sun"?

No.
.
>     > I took a look at the old text in Jorge's site and I was very puzzled 
>     > by the similarities to some vms "letters".
> 
> You mean in the "Vatican" copy. Yes. I presume that is the sort
> of evidence behind Toresella's "Northern Italian" theory.

Well in the Paris ms I can see  eva:iin as "uum" and latin eam 
with the funny @ <frogguy a)>, eva g in the latin "quidem" (which I 
presume that eva-g is "dem". Also eva-g appears in the Cambridge 
manuscript with the same meaning.

Last part of "scrire" in the Vatican one is same as one form of eva 
r/s which appears quite often in the vms.

In the Vatican ms, there are a number of + symbols like in the last 
folio of the ms (michiton....) which are translated as "et".

eva-q seems to code for "per"

All this is very interesting.

cheers,

Gabriel

From ixohoxi@micro-net.com  Wed Sep 10 10:17:04 1997
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		<3416C028.73EF@micro-net.com> <9709101002.ZM850@research.att.com>
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Jim Reeds wrote:
> 
> >       For the record: what Toresella actually said was:
> >
> > "The codex is difficult to date but the greater part of its
> > students think that it dates to the years 1460-1480."
> >
> > In other words, that wasn't his *own* opinion.  This may be an error or
> > a typo
> 
> But in fact this IS his opinion, or at least, that's what he told me (plus or
> minus a few decades) a day or two after seeing the VMS. I reported the
> conversation to this list on 10 December 1995.

	I stand corrected.  I do have that post of yours in the historical
precedents list.  What you had: "The VMS is, with certainty, authentic;
not a fake.  It was manufactured in the period 1450-1460.  It was in
France for a while: the month names
on the zodiac diagrams are in French in a French handwriting.  The book
itself comes from Italy; the mysterious writing is done in a round 
humanistic style found only in Italy in the second half of the 1400's."  

	It would be interesting to know what specific "humanistic style" 
he had in mind; does it have a name?  It always puzzled me how T. could 
specify such a narrow time range, given the uncertainties here.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 12:44:01 1997
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:40:47 -0400 (EDT)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re:  Re: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley (WAS Re: John Dee was not quack)
Status: OR

Moonhawk notes -

> A popular case in the '50s that some may remember was "The Search for
Bridey Murphy," in which Gaelic was involved, I believe.<

Actually, it was Gaelic that blew Bridey Murphy out of the water - when her
"channel" pronounced Cuchulain as "COOCH-oo-LANE" as I remember!

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist
Knoxville TN

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 11:11:05 1997
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*Voynich Text Entropies* 
*Hawaiian*
*Cat Latin C* (A verbose encryption of Latin)
*Jacques' System* (Another verbose encryption scheme)
    
    In response to the various discussions of entropy, I hurriedly put 
this together out of old posts.   

*Voynich Text Entropies* (Me, 2 May 1997) First of all, here are 
results for VMs text.  I kept making mistakes in calculating these; 
these are the latest ones.   
                                                           SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------


voyas.cur      33    9804   5.044   3.792   2.313   1.479   39.0   22.9
voyb.cur       34   13858   5.087   3.796   2.267   1.529   40.3   22.3
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5
voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   1.812   47.7   22.7
voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   1.778   46.1   23.7
voyas.guy      19   13539   4.248   3.710   1.951   1.759   47.4   23.0
voyb.guy       19   17975   4.248   3.749   1.999   1.750   46.7   23.5

*Hawaiian Text* (Me,  1 May 1997). 
    
    namaexp.hap is a Hawaiian text.  It's from a newspaper; I and 
Jacques don't know what it says.  Long vowels and the glottal stop are 
indicated.  Here I compare it with VMs text in Frogguy, whose 
character set is the same size.  The Hawaiian entropies, especially 
the second-order relative entropy drop (SORED - how's that for an 
acronym?), don't get down to those of Voynichese.   
                                                          SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

voyas.guy      19   13539   4.248   3.710   1.951   1.759   47.4   23.0
voyb.guy       19   17975   4.248   3.749   1.999   1.750   46.7   23.5
namaexp.hap    19   13473   4.248   3.575   2.650   0.925   25.9   31.2



*Cat Latin C*  (Me, 2 May 1997).  
    
    Here I take a Latin text, part of 1 Kings from the Vulgate Bible, 
and make the following verbose encryption: 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The BITRANS script lat2clc
-----------------------------------------------------------------
#=~
<(comment)> <(comment)>
{(comment)} {(comment)}
#(comment) #(comment)
a  a
b  bqbababa
c  c
d  dqdede
e  e
f  fqfififi
g  gqgogogo
h  h
i  i
j  jqjajaja
k  k
m  mqmememe
n  nqninini
o  o
p  pqpopopo
qu qu
r  rqrarara
s  sqsesese
t  tqtititi
u  u
v  v
w  w
x  xqxoxoxo
y  y
z  zqzazaza
----------------------------------------------------
                                                          SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

1kingsa1.lat   23    8232   4.524   3.996   3.262   0.734   18.4   36.1
1kingsa1.clc   23   28754   4.524   3.873   2.278   1.595   41.2   25.2
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5

    This clearly demonstrates what Jorge was saying, that by making 
the right substitutions you can reduce the entropy to whatever you 
want.  Of course, that may have been what happened in the VMs! 


*Jacques' System* (Jacques Guy  24 Mar 1997)

    Finally, I like this system that Jacques proposed.  He made more 
extensive substitutions of single vowels for multiple groups of 
vowels, and got to Voynich entropies more parsimoniously. 

"I took the first hundred lines or so of Genesis, and did a few global
replacements:"

[jbm system:]

i -> ie
t -> dt
r -> rrh
f -> ph
o -> au
w -> uu

                                                          SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

GENESIS        27   32000   4.755   3.969   3.020   0.949   23.9   --
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5
genesis.jbm    27    5684   4.755   3.802   2.471  .1.331   53.9   ---


    I gave figures for GENESIS in the King James English version for 
comparison.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 11:23:04 1997
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:20:33 -0700
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References: <01INGGTLFW0G9KM65H@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> 
		<3416C028.73EF@micro-net.com> 
		<9709101002.ZM850@research.att.com> 
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Jim Reeds wrote:
> 
> This brief period of
> popularity is what allows Toresella's puzzling narrow range of dates. 
<snip>
> After Toresella pointed it out to me I am completely
> convinced that the VMS script was written by a user of the humanist hand.

	Wow!  That seems like a major discovery!  If we can place the VMs
within that narrow a time frame, that's a lot of definite information,
compared with what we're used to having.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 01:29:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:06:52 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Pre-med
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

[about the measure of the entropy of texts]

Yes, you are quite right. Not so very
long ago, Dennis (I think it was Dennis,
I ought to check, but I am too lazy),
Dennis demonstrated how, by respelling
Latin using lots of multiple letters for 
single sounds (just like German "sch" -- or
Brazilian "ou", "nh" and "lh"), you could 
make it exhibit the same entropy as Voynichese.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 19:35:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:24:29 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Pre-med, really this time
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    > Recent research has established that the Voynich Manuscript is
    > written in the Edo language of western Africa.

I am convinced!  

Where do I find an Edochian dictionary?

--stolfi 8-)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 21:50:02 1997
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
cc: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Martian (WAS:Re: Strange Case of Dr. Dee and Mr. Kelley)
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On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, rmalek wrote:

> Something that has interested me greatly is what product you guys can
> produce by applying all your language algorithms to the Enochian tongue,
> especially page by page from liber sextus et sanctus.  I have run
> cryptologic calculations on these, which helped me to establish clear
> divisions between sections, but I wonder what your particular expertise in
> linguistic mathematics can discern from each of these layers.  Has anyone
> given it any thought?  It is supposed to be a language, is it not?

But that's the question, isn't it? In these days of rampant metaphorical
use of the word 'language,' it is wise to remember that, in a classical
sense with which I agree, language and culture are two sides of the same
coin. This basically lets out private 'languages', and even invented
languages until they have a culture of native speakers.

warm regards, moonhawk



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 04:11:03 1997
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Thanks to Dennis for the prompt reply:

now I am going to nitpick, I am afraid (but all for the good cause).
Let's be generous and take Voynich A which has a somewhat smaller
corpus and a somewhat higher h2:

Currier:     h1=  3.792  h2= 2.313
FSG:         h1=  3.801  h2= 2.286
EVA:         h1=  3.802  h2= 1.990
Frogguy:     h1=  3.710  h2= 1.951
For Hawaiian (same sample size) despite  Bennett's suggestion,
the h2 is already significantly higher. The main reason for
even remotely considering this language family loses some
ground: one still has to doctor Voynichese quite a bit:

namaexp.hap: h1=  3.575  h2= 2.650

Then there's Dennis' "cat Latin C" in which most
single characters are replaced as follows:

f  fqfififi
g  gqgogogo
(but admittedly the frequent vowels are left untouched).

Cat Latin C: h1=  3.873   h2=2.278

> This clearly demonstrates what Jorge was saying, that by
> making the right substitutions you can reduce the entropy
> to whatever you want.  Of course, that may have been what
> happened in the VMs.

The entropy values are the same as Currier/FSG but the
way the text has been altered has been *major* and the
resulting text will be *much* more repetitive than Voynichese.

> Finally, I like this system that Jacques proposed.

So do I!  I don't remember seeing this before (do I have
a major memory leak somewhere? ):

> i -> ie
> t -> dt
> r -> rrh
> f -> ph
> o -> au
> w -> uu

This will yield understandable and pronouncible text.
(quied errhadt demaunsdtrrhandum)

genesis.jbm:  h1= 3.802  h2=  2.471

Not quite there yet, and the sample is perhaps a bit
smallish (probably OK though), but very impressive
indeed!
If this 0.2 excess entropy can be lost in an elegant manner,
I for one would start feeling a bit more optimistic
about the chances of 'cracking the system' eventually.

So my nitpicking conclusion: we have not yet achieved
a (Latin) text manipulation scheme that yields  a text
that 'feels like Voynichese' and has the same entropies
as Voynichese.
Jacques came very close though.
One small problem: there must be something wrong with
the numbers in Dennis' post as the 'jbm' substitution
removes f, o and w from the alphabet but this is not
seen in the nr of chars or h0 value.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 04:26:02 1997
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Jim Reeds wrote:

> In about 1450 a new kind of handwriting arose in northern
> Italy, consiously associated at the time with the Humanist
> movement ...
> Round letters seem equally round on both sides ...
> After Toresella pointed it out to me I am completely
> convinced that the VMS script was written by a user of
> the humanist hand.

Can anything be said about the 'michiton oladabas' on
f116r, the 'mulhier' on f17r and the 'mussdel' on 66r?
Any guess whether these three are from the same hand,
or if they are also in a humanistic hand?

If they are in a later style, no problem. If much earlier we
are faced with yet another incongruity.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 04:56:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:48:28 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Occurrences of figure labels in main text
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I have scanned the main text of the "bio" section for occurrences of
the labels that appear in the figures of f77v (a ladies-in-tubs page).

The results are in

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/labels/f77v-labels.html
  
Enjoy,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 05:38:09 1997
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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:36:30 +0300
From: "Wallenius Jukka, Nokia Telecommunications" <JWALLENIUS@tne01.tele.nokia.fi>
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 22:05:19 1997
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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:03:30 -0500
To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: Pre-med, really this time
In-Reply-To: <34182560.20B3@trl.telstra.com.au>
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 <199709101127.IAA16019@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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At 10:07 AM 9/11/97 -0700, Jacques Guy wrote:

>Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
>> Where do I find an Edochian dictionary?

>Take thy tongue out of thy cheek, o, blackguard,
>thy wish is nigh fulfilled:
>
>http://broca.mit.edu/nels_web/thompson.html
>
>An AltaVista search did it.
>
>+edo +africa +language -japan*

	Opqox!!!
- VMs

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 09:59:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:50:47 -0700
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> For Hawaiian (same sample size) despite  Bennett's suggestion,
> the h2 is already significantly higher. The main reason for
> even remotely considering this language family loses some
> ground: one still has to doctor Voynichese quite a bit:

	Hawaiian has the following phonemes:

        Consonants:  h   k   l   m   n  p  w  '(glottal stop)
        Vowels:  a  e  i  o  u  A  E  I  O  U  (cap's means long)

 	Bennett did not distinguish the long vowels and did not write the 
glottal stop in his Hawaiian (call this .hlp, Hawaiian limited 
phonemic).  He also had his own transcription alphabet.  Finally, he 
only compared the absolute h2 values and not the relative measures 
we've attempted.  It's as good as any an illustration of the problems 
here.  Here are the values. 
                                                           SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

voyas.guy      19   13539   4.248   3.710   1.951   1.759   47.4   23.0
voyb.guy       19   17975   4.248   3.749   1.999   1.750   46.7   23.5
voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   1.812   47.7   22.7
namaexp.hap    19   13473   4.248   3.575   2.650   0.925   25.9   31.2

bennett.hlp    13   15000   3.700   3.200   2.454   0.746   23.3   33.2
bennett.ben    21   10000?  4.392   3.660   2.220   1.440   39.3   25.3

	Even with that, Bennett didn't quite get there.  Compare EVA 
h2=1.990 to bennett h2=2.220.  Of course, the various "relative" h2
values are even further off.  
    
    As you noted, look at the differences in the entropy values for the 
different Voynich transcription alphabets!  That's what got me to
thinking 
about all this to begin with!  For voyas, h2 = 2.313 in Currier and
1.951
in Frogguy.

> The entropy values [of Cat Latin C] are the same as Currier/FSG but the
> way the text has been altered has been *major* and the
> resulting text will be *much* more repetitive than Voynichese.

	Let's look at some text samples.  It might be best to look for patterns
subjectively.

    The start of the voyas Herbal-A sample file (f29v, lines 1-9), in 
EVA: 

 kshol qoocph shor pshocph shepchy qoty dy shory  
 ykcholy qoty chy dy qokchol chor tchy qokchody cheor o  
 chor chol chy choiin
 tshoiin cheor chor o chty qotol sheol shor daiin qoty  
 otol chol daiin chkaiin shoiin qotchey qotshey daiiin  
 daiin chkaiin
 pchol oiir chol tsho daiin sho teo chy chtshy dair am  
 okain chan chain cthor dain yk chy daiin cthol  
 sot chear chl s choly dar
 
    The beginning of my namaexp.hap Hawaiian sample file:

    kepakemapa  mei  puke kepakemapa   mei mahalo 'ia ka 'Olelo 
hawai'i e nA mAka' na ho'Olanani kim ma ka lA  o malaki ua noa ka pAka 
'o kapi'olani no ke anaina na lAkou ke kuleana 'o ka mAlama 'ana ma ka 
'Olelo 'ana aku i ka 'Olelo hawai'i ma laila nO i 'Akoakoa ai ka po'e 
haumAna ka po'e kumu ka po'e mAkua a me ka po'e hoa o kElA 'ano kEia 
'ano o ka 'Olelo hawai'i a ma laila nO ho'i i launa ai ka po'e ma o ka 
'Olelo hawai'i kapa 'ia kEia lA hoihoi 'o ka lA 'ohana 

    Finally, the beginning of the Latin Vulgate 1 Kings in Cat Latin C:

    etqtititi rqrararaexqxoxoxo dqdedeavidqdede 
sqseseseenqnininiuerqrararaatqtititi habqbababaebqbababaatqtititique 
aetqtititiatqtititiisqsesese pqpopopolurqrararaimqmememeosqsesese 
dqdedeiesqsesese cumqmememeque 
opqpopopoerqrararairqrararaetqtititiurqrarara 
vesqsesesetqtititiibqbababausqsesese nqnininionqninini 
calefqfififiiebqbababaatqtititi 
dqdedeixqxoxoxoerqrararaunqnininitqtititi erqrararagqgogogoo ei 
sqseseseerqrararavi ...  
       
	I invite everyone to look at these samples and think about the *kind*
of repetition involved in each case!  

Here are the entropy values for these samples:
                                                           SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------
voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   1.812   47.7   22.7
namaexp.hap    19   13473   4.248   3.575   2.650   0.925   25.9   31.2
1kingsa1.clc   23   28754   4.524   3.873   2.278   1.595   41.2   25.2

 
> > Finally, I like this system that Jacques proposed.
> 
> So do I!  
> Not quite there yet, and the sample is perhaps a bit
> smallish (probably OK though), but very impressive
> indeed!
> If this 0.2 excess entropy can be lost in an elegant manner,
> I for one would start feeling a bit more optimistic
> about the chances of 'cracking the system' eventually.
> 
> So my nitpicking conclusion: we have not yet achieved
> a (Latin) text manipulation scheme that yields  a text
> that 'feels like Voynichese' and has the same entropies
> as Voynichese.
> Jacques came very close though.

	Yes.  I'll have to play with Jacques' system, and start with a
higher-entropy Latin text, to see if we can get there.

> One small problem: there must be something wrong with
> the numbers in Dennis' post as the 'jbm' substitution
> removes f, o and w from the alphabet but this is not
> seen in the nr of chars or h0 value.

    This was my mistake.  I wrote # ch = 27 without thinking.
It should be :
                                                          SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

GENESIS        27   32000   4.755   3.969   3.020   0.949   23.9   --
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5
genesis.jbm    24    5684   4.585   3.802   2.471  .1.331   53.9   ---

Thanks, 
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 10 20:35:02 1997
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		<199709101127.IAA16019@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
		<3416E86C.6735@micro-net.com> <199709102324.UAA16854@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
 
 
> Where do I find an Edochian dictionary?


Take thy tongue out of thy cheek, o, blackguard,
thy wish is nigh fulfilled:

http://broca.mit.edu/nels_web/thompson.html

An AltaVista search did it.

+edo +africa +language -japan*

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 16:17:03 1997
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From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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--------------0A3A13D0D82CA4A14036E18F
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    Well, first I must thank Dennis for repeating his earlier statistics
for me. It seems I was far too busy in May, Jun, and July to pay close
attention to the work that was done. Secondly, I don't know how to
emphasize that I NEVER thought of the VMs as Hawaiian - I merely wanted
to see what the Entropy of a language with few consonants would look
like in comparison to the VMs -- In hopes it might have confirmed that
the Voynich alphabet was smaller than the average Euro set. Alas, the
Entropy was higher for Hawaiian making it difficult to utilize the info
in support of a smaller alphabet.  The same goes for entropy studies of
phonetic or syllabic sets - attempts to find something that compares to
the results presented by the VMs. I have consistently (and perhaps
blindly) continued in the syllabic realm. There certainly are problems
in justifying this - and I know I'm not alone there.

    Gabriel wrote:

>
Well in the Paris ms I can see  eva:iin as "uum" and latin eam
with the funny @ <frogguy a)>, eva g in the latin "quidem" (which I
presume that eva-g is "dem". Also eva-g appears in the Cambridge
manuscript with the same meaning.

I like this a lot!  If  'i' equals 'u' and the ligature that finishes
the 'n' equates to 'm' then
if  'e' equals 'a' with the same ligature you would get 'am' for the @.
Now if only everything
else worked out... hmmm back to vowels preceding consonants...
Unfortunately, the eva-g shouldn't finish in an 'm' if this form could
be continued.

Last part of "scrire" in the Vatican one is same as one form of eva
r/s which appears quite often in the vms.

    Last part as in 'ire' or just 're'?  Either way, we end up with a
consonant preceding
the final vowel.  Enough conjecture, but I do think that consonant vowel
combinations are
represented in each character... only to figure out what kind of rules
might exist to eliminate the vowel when it isn't required.

In the Vatican ms, there are a number of + symbols like in the last
folio of the ms (michiton....) which are translated as "et".

eva-q seems to code for "per"

--------------0A3A13D0D82CA4A14036E18F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Well, first I must thank Dennis for repeating his earlier
statistics for me. It seems I was far too busy in May, Jun, and July to
pay close attention to the work that was done. Secondly, I don't know how
to emphasize that I NEVER thought of the VMs as Hawaiian - I merely wanted
to see what the Entropy of a language with few consonants would look like
in comparison to the VMs -- In hopes it might have confirmed that the Voynich
alphabet was smaller than the average Euro set. Alas, the Entropy was higher
for Hawaiian making it difficult to utilize the info in support of a smaller
alphabet.&nbsp; The same goes for entropy studies of phonetic or syllabic
sets - attempts to find something that compares to the results presented
by the VMs. I have consistently (and perhaps blindly) continued in the
syllabic realm. There certainly are problems in justifying this - and I
know I'm not alone there.

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gabriel wrote:

<P>>
<BR><I>Well in the Paris ms I can see&nbsp; eva:iin as "uum" and latin
eam</I>
<BR><I>with the funny @ &lt;frogguy a)>, eva g in the latin "quidem" (which
I</I>
<BR><I>presume that eva-g is "dem". Also eva-g appears in the Cambridge</I>
<BR><I>manuscript with the same meaning.</I>

<P>I like this a lot!&nbsp; If&nbsp; 'i' equals 'u' and the ligature that
finishes the 'n' equates to 'm' then
<BR>if&nbsp; 'e' equals 'a' with the same ligature you would get 'am' for
the @.&nbsp; Now if only everything
<BR>else worked out... hmmm back to vowels preceding consonants...&nbsp;
Unfortunately, the eva-g shouldn't finish in an 'm' if this form could
be continued.

<P><I>Last part of "scrire" in the Vatican one is same as one form of eva</I>
<BR><I>r/s which appears quite often in the vms.</I>

<P><I>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </I>Last part as in 'ire' or just 're'?&nbsp;
Either way, we end up with a consonant preceding
<BR>the final vowel.&nbsp; Enough conjecture, but I do think that consonant
vowel combinations are
<BR>represented in each character... only to figure out what kind of rules
might exist to eliminate the vowel when it isn't required.

<P><I>In the Vatican ms, there are a number of + symbols like in the last</I>
<BR><I>folio of the ms (michiton....) which are translated as "et".</I>

<P><I>eva-q seems to code for "per"</I></HTML>

--------------0A3A13D0D82CA4A14036E18F--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 16:53:33 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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    > [Rene:] So my nitpicking conclusion: we have not yet achieved
    > a (Latin) text manipulation scheme that yields  a text
    > that 'feels like Voynichese' and has the same entropies
    > as Voynichese.

Well, here is my suggestion. First, remove all spaces from the Latin
text. Then replace each Latin letter, in order of decreasing
frequency, by the strings

    guy2       FSG
    ---------- ------
    a+         A+
    89*        8G*
    x+         E+
    o          O
    ox+        OE+
    4o         4O
    etc        TC
    e'tc       SC
    et         T
    e't        S
    lpa        DA
    qpa        HA
    c          C
    s          2
    2          R*
    iv         N*
    iiv        M*
    lpc9       DC9*
    lpc89      DC89*
    qpc9       HC9*
    qpc89      HC89*
    lpet9      DT9*
    lpet89     DT89*
    qpet9      HT9*
    qpet89     HT89*
    8          8
    lp         D
    qp         H
    fj         F
    dj         P

where 

  "*" means insert a space here (always),
  "+" means insert a space 50% of the time, and nothing the other 50%. 
  
These substitutions should be applied simultaneously, of course.

If you can't easily perform probabilistic replacements, try instead this:

  1. replace all spaces in the Latin text by by "#" characters
  2. for each Latin letter x, in decreasing frequency
       if the corresponding entry of the table above is WWW* then
         2.1 replace x by WWW_  (note the underscore)
       else if the entry is WWW+, then 
         2.2 replace x# by WWW_
         2.3 replace x by WWW
       else if the entry is WWW, then 
         2.4 replace x by WWW
  3. delete all remaining "#"s
  4. replace all "_"s by blanks.
  
However, these substitutions should be applied simultaneously, too,
taking care to apply 2.3 only if 2.2 is not applicable.

I think, but I can't guarantee, that this replacement will lower the
h2 of Latin down to Voynich levels.

Moreover, if I didn't make any blunders, the reverse mapping (taking
each of the strings above to a single letter) should raise the h2 of
Voychinese to Latin levels.  But notice that any spaces after the
starred entries (8G, R, N, M etc.), must be deleted. It may also be
necessary to delete or insert additional spaces, so that the frequency
of " " is the same as in Latin.

Sorry for not doing the experiment myself, but I don't have any Latin
text at hand, I can't easily run MONKEY (I work on a Unix box), and my
sleep meter is way into the red...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 17:23:09 1997
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From: "David R. Jones" <jdnolan@budget.net>
To: "John Grove" <handley@fox.nstn.ca>, <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Entropy Manipulation
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:18:11 -0700
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

say what?

Love is the law, love under will.

David R. Jones aka Prospero  
     jdnolan@budget.net
     http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/invis/Invis.html 
     http://w3.one.net/~parker/JonesArt.html
     http://www.budget.net/~jdnolan/City.html
Magick code:  MEN/TH (# S* W---->----- N++>* PWM/AM++++ Ds@/d++/r+++ A+++
a+++ C++++>* G* QO+++++(#196884q) 666+++ Y+++>++++


----------
> From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
> To: voynich@rand.org
> Subject: Re: Entropy Manipulation
> Date: Thursday, September 11, 1997 1:12 PM
> 
    Well, first I must thank Dennis for repeating his earlier statistics
for me. It seems I was far too busy in May, Jun, and July to pay close
attention to the work that was done. Secondly, I don't know how to
emphasize that I NEVER thought of the VMs as Hawaiian - I merely wanted
to see what the Entropy of a language with few consonants would look
like in comparison to the VMs -- In hopes it might have confirmed that
the Voynich alphabet was smaller than the average Euro set. Alas, the
Entropy was higher for Hawaiian making it difficult to utilize the info
in support of a smaller alphabet.  The same goes for entropy studies of
phonetic or syllabic sets - attempts to find something that compares to
the results presented by the VMs. I have consistently (and perhaps
blindly) continued in the syllabic realm. There certainly are problems
in justifying this - and I know I'm not alone there.

    Gabriel wrote:

>
Well in the Paris ms I can see  eva:iin as "uum" and latin eam
with the funny @ <frogguy a)>, eva g in the latin "quidem" (which I
presume that eva-g is "dem". Also eva-g appears in the Cambridge
manuscript with the same meaning.

I like this a lot!  If  'i' equals 'u' and the ligature that finishes
the 'n' equates to 'm' then
if  'e' equals 'a' with the same ligature you would get 'am' for the @.
Now if only everything
else worked out... hmmm back to vowels preceding consonants...
Unfortunately, the eva-g shouldn't finish in an 'm' if this form could
be continued.

Last part of "scrire" in the Vatican one is same as one form of eva
r/s which appears quite often in the vms.

    Last part as in 'ire' or just 're'?  Either way, we end up with a
consonant preceding
the final vowel.  Enough conjecture, but I do think that consonant vowel
combinations are
represented in each character... only to figure out what kind of rules
might exist to eliminate the vowel when it isn't required.

In the Vatican ms, there are a number of + symbols like in the last
folio of the ms (michiton....) which are translated as "et".

eva-q seems to code for "per"

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 11 22:56:02 1997
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From: Takeshi Takahashi <voynich@study.club.or.jp>
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I want to subscribe VMS mailing list.

subscribe  voynich@study.club.or.jp

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 12 03:08:02 1997
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Dear all,

I tried this:

> i -> ie
> t -> dt
> r -> rrh
> f -> ph
> o -> au
> w -> uu

And alas, what I feared, but would not say without some
evidence, seemed to be true. Using MONKEY, I found, instead
of the earlier reported figures:

Genesis:  normal, 'jbm'-ed

chars:     24        22
h1:       3.980     3.868
h2:       3.260     2.616
h3:       2.617     2.668

OK, I am not saying that the h3 values mean anything. Just
showing that the h3>h2 which I cannot really understand
despite Jacques reassuring that this is not mathematically
excluded.

Anyway, the h2 I get is still much higher than the 2.2 for
Voynich-A.

The source text comes from the Vulgate bible at ftp.std.com.
I think there's no w in it which explains the drop of
only two characters.

To get h2 down to 2.2, much more of an effort is required.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 12 08:08:18 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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    > [Dennis:] Here's the Latin sample of 1 Kings that I
    > used for the Cat Latin C results.
    
Thanks, Dennis!

It turns out that the transformation I suggested yesterday wouldn't
quite do it.  After some fiddling, I found one that seems to do the job:

    lat-n count  guy2                FSG
    ----- -----  ------------------- ------------------
    space  1318  delete              delete
        e   888  *4o                 *4O
        i   815  a+                  A+      
        t   579  x+                  E+
        a   570  +ox+                +OE+
        s   515  +o                  +O
        u   513  lpa                 DA                         
        n   443  2*                  R*                 
        o   422  -et                 -T                  
        r   380  +8a+                +8A+                   
        m   374  +etc                +TC                    
        d   267  +etc89*             +TC8G*                                 
        c   212  iv*                 N*                                        
        l   174  iiv*                M*                   
        v   133  +e'tc89*            +SC8G*                    
        p   118  +e't                +S                   
        b   108  =s                  =2                 
        g   103  +e'tc               +SC                    
        q    98  qpa-                HA-                  
        h    82  lpet89*             DT8G*                
        f    70  lpc89*              DC8G*               
        x    49  +8                  +8                  
        z     2  +dj                 +P                  

  where the codes -+=* denote probabilistic word breaks, as follows:
  
    * = always break.
    = = break 3/4 of the time.
    + = break half the time.
    - = break 1/4 of the time.
   
  Also, word-final FSG "A" (Guy2 "a") should be written as "G" (Guy2 "9")

A Unix "sed" script that implements these rules is in

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/lat2voy

Here is the result of transforming your latin text to FSG, according
to those rules:

    4OE 8G 4O 4OE8G 4OG TC8G O 4OG TC8G O 4O OEE DT8G OE OE EDT8G
    OEEHADG 4OE HADG 4OEG O SE AOS TCTOTC8G TCTO TC8G N DG TCHG N
    DATCHG 4O8G G 8G 4O 8AG 8G SC8G 4OOE SC8G 4OOER TR N R TR N G 4O
    2OE G 4O2OE ...

The full text is in

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/pseudo-voynich.fsg

I computed H2 = 2.082, but I don't trust my code.  And I didn't
compute H0, H1.

This transformation seems to produce a bit too many blanks,
and there are some visible oddities, like isolated "O"s,
"M"s and "N"s.  

Please don't attach any significance to the above mapping. 
My point was to show that the peculiar entropies of Voynichese
can be explained as a result of an inefficient encoding.

Of course, by discarding the original spaces and inserting
new ones, I have cheated in a major way --- I have lost 
some information and added some noise.  But what were the
rules of the game, anyway? 8-)

By the way, the H2 entropy can be written as 

  H2 = sum_x  Prob(x) H2(x)
  
where H2(x) is the entropy of the characters that follow character x,
i.e.

  H2(x) = sum_y Prob(next=y|this=x) -log_2(Prob(next=y|this=x))

Thus, to understand why the H2 of Voynichese is low, we should look at
the entropies H2(x) for the most popular characters x.  Here is what
my code says for the Biological section (in FSG):

      x count H2(x) 
      - ----- -----
         6408 3.131
      C  4275 2.256
      O  3889 2.235
      G  3763 0.563 <<<
      8  2727 1.313 <<<
      E  2347 2.620
      D  2181 2.182
      A  1961 2.427
      4  1665 0.258 <<<
      T  1445 1.657 <<<
      S  1073 1.268 <<<
      H   966 2.496
      R   911 1.692 <<<
      N   478 0.286 <<<
      M   422 0.208 <<<
      2   372 2.321
      Z   344 1.606 <<<
      P   215 2.376
      I   152 1.873
      K    56 0.258
      L    43 0.678
      F    36 1.814
        ----- -----
    TOT 35729 1.972 (weighted average)

As you can see, the main culprits are G, 8, 4, T, S, R, M, N, Z,
for which the next letter is stronlgy predictable.  

A mechanical way to increase the entropy of a text is to repeatedly
join each character x that has low H2(x) to its most common
successors, creating new letters: "4O" --> "Q", "8G" --> "X", etc..
Alternatively, one can identify characters that have mostly disjoint
successor sets: "A|G" --> "A", "C|M" --> "M", etc.).

Again, one should not attach much significance to the resulting
"condensed Voynich alphabet": it will be merely an efficient
compression scheme for the original text.

(The mysterious replacements of my lat2voy filter above are basically
the result of playing this game for a few iterations, then mapping the
Latin letters to the condensed alphabet, in order of decreasing
frequency, and finally expanding the condensed letters back to the 
original FSG sequences.)

--stolfi



























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  Stolfi wrote:

    > * = always break.
    > = = break 3/4 of the time.
    > + = break half the time.
    > - = break 1/4 of the time.

    I would say: don't worry too much about the spaces...

> I computed H2 = 2.082, but I don't trust my code.  And I
> didn't compute H0, H1.

Looks just fine.

> Of course, by discarding the original spaces and inserting
> new ones, I have cheated in a major way --- I have lost
> some information and added some noise.

No problem

> But what were the rules of the game, anyway? 8-)

No rules.... but if you ever propose a Voynich encoding/decoding
scheme that uses the 500th-1000th decimal of pi, you may
not convince many people :-)

I once did a similar experiment of looking at the 'partial'
h2-values as you propose, or rather the list of h1 values
in specific contexts. Take any character, e.g. Currier-S.
Then look at what the distribution of the preceding characters
is and what the distribution of the following character is.
The h1 can be computed for both distributions.
I once made some scatter plots of these two values
against each other.  This shows the 'dishonest' characters
immediately. In Latin, the 'q' is a good example. It's
preceded by various different ones but followed uniquely
by 'u'. So it is way off the main diagonal. In voynichese
there are some absolute nulls, like Currier: 4, M, N, J
because both the preceding and the following character
are extremely predictable.

The most conspicuous thing was that Latin had vowels. Five
characters of which both the preceding and following characters
were extremely free. Voynichese has none of this. In
fact what we call vowels (A, O, 9) are more constrained
in forming pairs than many of the Latin consonants.

So the first thing to do to drop h2 of a Latin source
text would be to attack the vowels, in such a way that the
variation of characters next to consonants is not increased
too much (which is what would happen if vowels are simply
dropped).

As Stolfi also suggested, one could (almost) say that
4O is really a single character, and just write '4' for
it. The curious thing is that there are a few 4's not followed
by O and one cannot just say these are errors. Some of them
occur close together. These cases would also not always form
'normal' words if an O is simply introduced.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 12 10:11:04 1997
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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:04:23 -0700
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
> It turns out that the transformation I suggested yesterday wouldn't
> quite do it.  After some fiddling, I found one that seems to do the job:
> 
> I computed H2 = 2.082, but I don't trust my code.  And I didn't
> compute H0, H1.

	Here are the results from MONKEY:

                                                          SORED 
                    # ch                                  (h2-h1)   %
File           #     in                                    / h1    Max.
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1   *100    h2
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----  -----  ------

1kingsa1.lat   23    8232   4.524   3.996   3.262   0.734   18.4   36.1
pseudo-v.fsg   16   16400   4.000   3.441   2.027   1.414   41.1
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515   39.9   24.9
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   1.560   41.0   24.5

	As you can see, the problem here is that the h0 and h1 for the
pseudo-FSG are too low.  The pseudo-FSG character set is only 16
characters, which I confirmed by a hand count.  So I don't think this is
a valid comparison.  

> Thus, to understand why the H2 of Voynichese is low, we should look at
> the entropies H2(x) for the most popular characters x.  Here is what
> my code says for the Biological section (in FSG):

	I really like this idea!!!!!

>       x count H2(x)
>       - ----- -----
>       Z   344 1.606 <<<
>       K    56 0.258

	Are these two lines mistaken choices?

> As you can see, the main culprits are G, 8, 4, T, S, R, M, N, Z,
> for which the next letter is stronlgy predictable.

	It's interesting to take these letters and see where they're in Robert
Firth's paradigm for Voynich text.  

FSG      G, 8, 4, T, S, R, M, N, Z,
Currier  9  8  4  S  Z  R  M  N  *     (* = no single equivalent)


9	9F-, 9P, -89, -C9, -CC9, -S9, -SC9, -Z9, -9
8	8-,  -89, -8AE, -8AM
4       4O-, 4OF-, 4OP- 
S	S-, SF-, SP-, SQ-, SW-, SX-, -S9, -SC9, -SO, -SOE, -SOR
Z	-Z, -Z9
R	-AR, -OR, -SOR
M 	-8AM, -AM, -OM
N	-AN

	Thus all of these are parts of paradigm elements, which could explain
their predictability (except for Z, which looks mischosen).  However, R,
M, and N are word-final, which would not make the *next* letter
predictable.  

> A mechanical way to increase the entropy of a text is to repeatedly
> join each character x that has low H2(x) to its most common
> successors, creating new letters: "4O" --> "Q", "8G" --> "X", etc..

	This may be exactly the point!!!  Voynichese may be a verbose
orthography.  

	After reading Rene's followup to this and comparing the samples of
Hawaiian and Voynich EVA that I posted, I'm thinking that Voynichese has
moderately verbose representations of both vowels and consonants.  

	Those are some quick thoughts.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 12 19:38:02 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: Entropy Manipulation
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    > [Dennis:] As you can see, the problem here is that the h0 and h1
    > for the pseudo-FSG are too low.  The pseudo-FSG character set is
    > only 16 characters, which I confirmed by a hand count.  So I
    > don't think this is a valid comparison.
    > 
    > Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     h2-h1
    > -----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   -----
    > pseudo-v.fsg   16   16400   4.000   3.441   2.027   1.414
    > voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   1.515

Well, fixing h0 is easy---just pretend that the alphabet has 24 letters,
some of them occurring VERY rarely.  (In other words, H0 is pretty 
arbitrary---the number of characters actually occurring in the text
provides only a lower bound.)

Fixing h1, without raising h2 too much, is a bit trickier, but possible.
We must equalize the overall symbol probabilities without changing too much 
I believe I could do it, with a few hours of fiddling and hacking.
But what are we trying to prove?  

    > >       x count H2(x)
    > >       - ----- -----
    > >       Z   344 1.606 <<<
    > >       K    56 0.258
    > 
    > 	Are these two lines mistaken choices?

I should have marked both, They are both pulling the h2 entropy down;
K pulls 3 times harder but Z has ~6 times the weight (because of its
higher frequency).

    > except for Z, which looks mischosen
    
Z is the FSG marker for intruding gallows; it is followed by G with
prob=0.58 and by C with prob=0.28.  Thus its next symbol is highly
predictable.  (In fact, the gallow's base looks like a T, so it is
not surprising that its entropy is equally low.)
    
    > However, R, M, and N are word-final, which would not make the
    > *next* letter predictable.

Well, I am counting space as a letter (and I suppose MONKEY does the same);
so in fact the next letter *is* completely determined.

    > This may be exactly the point!!!  Voynichese may be a verbose
    > orthography.  

Yes; that would not be so strange for a newly-invented alphabet.

However, it may also be a concise ortography that has been corrupted
by "lossy" copying (e.g. an English text where "Q" and "D" have been 
copied as "O", "R" and "P" as "B", etc.).

--stolfi

From reeds Sat Sep 13 10:50:10 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:50:09 -0400
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Subject: Humanist hand, 1400's dating, and so on.
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I took a look at Bischoff's Latin Paleography book after posting my blurb about Toresella's
round humanist hand dating of the VMS, and it is clear that I oversimplified and overstated
things.  The humanist hand dates from the earliest years of the 1400's,  and was not instantly
supplanted on the invention of the Italic hand, so the time bracket for the VMS (if you believe the
VMS scribe was used to the humanist hand) is wider than the decade or 2 I suggested in my
earlier letter.  Unfortunately Bischoff does not say very much about the h.h. (it is at the very end
of his time period) so I cannot give more info here.  He does cite several books about the h.h.,
so there is clearly a lot more to know.



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From ixohoxi@micro-net.com  Sun Sep 14 09:32:01 1997
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To: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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At 10:50 AM 9/13/97 -0400, Jim Reeds wrote:
>I took a look at Bischoff's Latin Paleography book after posting my blurb
about Toresella's
>round humanist hand dating of the VMS, and it is clear that I
oversimplified and overstated
>things.  

	Another question.  Was the "humanist hand" confined to northern Italy, or
did its use spread elsewhere (France, England, etc.)?

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 15 10:11:03 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: SOE,SOR more analysis.
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:11:30 +0100
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 Following up my earlier statistics I have counted the occurences of
Currier SOE and SOR in Herbal-A pages to give totals relating to
positions in lines and at the start and ends of paragraphs.
 This time actual VMs 'words' SOE and SOR are included as well as
the final ( ...SOE, ...SOR); medial (...SOE...,...SOR...) and initial
(SOE...,SOR...) occurences.  The table below shows how 
SOE and SOR behave.   I have not included the Pharmaceutical-A
because of the long lines on some folios which could distort the
figures.
 I have individual counts such as 9SOE occurs 6 times at the start
of a line and once in the middle, whereas 9SOR has 11 all at the
start of a line.  On the other hand 4OPSOE has 2 at the start of a
line and 10 in the middle with 4OPSOR having 10 at the start of a
line and 1 in the middle.
 The total counts are given below :-
              
                  SOE    ...SOE   SOE...    ...SOE...      
Line
 Start            10        41           0             3
 Middle         228      113         20            9 
 End              2          2            8             2 
Para
 Start             0         4            0             1
 End              1         1            1             2

                  SOR    ...SOR   SOR...    ...SOR...      
Line
 Start             6          68          0             2
 Middle         140        88         13            3
 End               2          2          10            5
Para
 Start             0          11          0             0 
 End              3            2          2             0

I will go back to check, but I think all 3 SOR at the ends
of paragraphs are at the end of the page

Comments ?            Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 16 05:23:17 1997
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Stolfi wrote:

> Fixing h1, without raising h2 too much, is a bit
> trickier, but possible.
> ...I believe I could do it, with a few hours of
> fiddling and hacking.
> But what are we trying to prove?

I personally find this approach interesting because
I would hope that one or more of the following could
be achieved:

- Finding a way how to end up with such an unusual distribution
  of digraphs. Evidently, the h2 value is just one number
  distilled out of it.
- Find the precise difference between the A and
  B 'systems' (i.e. assuming the difference is not
  "just" subject-matter).

Both could help us to find out how Voynichese was
'done'.


Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 16 11:50:04 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs:top-down analysis
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:50:30 +0100
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>From Denis Mardle

 Several people have suggested that we need a top-down analysis, so
I have decided to put my head on the block !    I expect a lively, but I
hope not too lengthy debate.

 I suspect we are all puzzled and somewhat frustrated at the miserly
hard facts that we can get out of the VMs.   We know that folios were
numbered by, perhaps, John Dee, but only a few of us are sure that
this is so given numbers only for a handwriting comparison.   We have
extraneous text which is difficult to transcribe and in a language we are
unsure of since we cannot get out the meaning.  We do have a 
signature recoverable from f1r which probably rules out a modern fake
(but do we have other independent examples of that signature ? ).
 The month names on the Zodiac pages are said to be in Medieval
French.  How sure are we of this ?  At least we know they ARE month
names.    The final extraneous texts are the folio gatherings which we
have no difficulty in understanding as they are in Latin abbrevations
for First ( Primus ), Second etc. and are regular at f8v,16v,24v,32v,40v,
48v and 56v but irregular after that.   The numbers are not in the same
hand as the folio numbers and I suspect from Mary D'Imperio's
illustration of numbers from the 13th to the 16th century that the folio
numbers were put on in the 16th century but the folio gatherings were
earlier.  The Latin abbreviation 9 for -us ( also -os,-is,-s and con,cum,
com ) does not look to me to be in the same hand as the VMs
version of 9.  Folio 12 must have gone missing after both sets of
numbers were added.  I believe that folio numbers were always on
the right-hand page with the position of the number on the folio
being on the recto side for simple folios but nearly always on the
verso-2 page for multiple ones because of the systematic way they
were folded. The only exception I can see is f67r1 which has the
first ( and only fold ) v2 onto v1.
  I have discovered one new fact.  The folio gatherings on f8v and
f24v were written right at the bottom of the page and f7v also f23v
respectively must have been sticking out a short distance since
the tails of the P and 9 (f8v) also 3 and 9 (f24v) have gone onto
the earlier folios.  This is not so clear on the copy-flo but my BM
copies ( made in 1930 or earlier) show it clearly with f7v showing
under f8v but with the tails slightly displaced.  f24v with f23v
similarly.
  Now to the main VMs.   Reluctantly, but now with a reasonable
suggestion, I have to agree with the growing minority who believe
we have only one hand in the VMs as we see it.  This leads to
the view that we have a copy done by one scribe who has to fit
in the earlier document on the folios.   My simple suggestion is
that it is the earlier document that has the variability and is in at
least two hands and probably three or more.  This would also
fit the statistics which indicate that Herbal-A, Herbal-B and
Bio-B are homogeneous within the 3 groups but have different
statistics.  As well as different hands they could have had
slightly different, but related languages.   The copyist has made
a neater job than I realised when using smaller symbols to get
the original text in the available space ( and the known differences
at line starts and endings probably made this essential ).
 The person(s) copying the illustrations might have been copying
the earlier manuscript also.

 My final point, for the present, concerns the VMs symbols
themselves.  Having looked again at the Latin abbreviations that
Mary D'Imperio gives such as Currier S for ra,ci,cri; Z for circ;
D for ter,in-,im-; ID for -um; IID for -tum,-mum,-ntum; 9 for con,
cum,com,-us,-os,-is,-s; 2 for cun,con,cum,quon; P for qu-is and
several others plus Alchemy ones such as 4O for Oleum
Tartari Sennerti; 8 for White Arsenic or Copper Plate; 8 and 89
for Salt plus the World symbol we know to be on several folios
( Soapstone in Alchemy ) then no wonder we are confused.
  If these abbreviations are being borrowed for another language
then we need to think hard about the structure.  I suspect,
although I have not yet asked him, that John Stojko started
off with the gallows characters  and tried the logical structure
F as y; P as xy; V as z; B as xz;  X as wy; Q as wxy; Y as
wz; W as wxz.    Now put y=t; x=s ( or sh ); w=p; z=ch and
we get F=t; P=s(h)t; V=ch; B=s(h)ch; X=pt; Q=pst; Y=pch and
W=psch.  This gives a phonetic language with vowels omitted
similar to the Latin abbreviations.  As a Slav language we can
have the common Paragraph beginner B as s(h)cho also P as
shto.   I wonder if any other group of languages fits the Gallows
structure.

Comments ?              Denis
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 16 16:44:30 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Here are a few odd thoughts.

Denis Mardle wrote:
> 
>  I suspect we are all puzzled and somewhat frustrated at the miserly
> hard facts that we can get out of the VMs.  

	In addition to what you've said on general facts, we can add the
Voynich script's relation to Trandechino's Renaissance cipher scripts,
Capelli's gallows-like characters, and the "humanist style".  The last
is particularly important, since it may enable us to locate the VMs in
northern Italy in a specific portion of the 15th century.

>   Now to the main VMs.   Reluctantly, but now with a reasonable
> suggestion, I have to agree with the growing minority who believe
> we have only one hand in the VMs as we see it.  This leads to
> the view that we have a copy done by one scribe who has to fit
> in the earlier document on the folios.   My simple suggestion is
> that it is the earlier document that has the variability and is in at
> least two hands and probably three or more.  This would also
> fit the statistics which indicate that Herbal-A, Herbal-B and
> Bio-B are homogeneous within the 3 groups but have different
> statistics.  

	I think some further analysis might give us more insight into the A and
B "languages", even if one person copied the VMs.  Are A and B simply
two different subject matters, two different writing styles, two
different operators' use of a homophonic cipher system (as I've
suggested), two different dialects, or two different languages?  It
would help a lot to know.

        One could calculate chi-squared for the difference between the
digraph distributions in Vulgate Genesis and Vulgate Acts (two different
writers' styles).  Then the difference between texts in two different
dialects of English (can't think of a good example).  Then do the
difference between Genesis in Latin and Genesis in English.  Then you
could compare that chi-squared with that between Voynich A and B. That
might tell us whether the difference between Voynich A and B is one of
style between different writers in the same language, or whether it's
greater than that.  

        That might work.  I'm used to seeing chi-squared to show whether
differences in distribution are statistically significant or not, but
not to test the *magnitude* of the differences.  

	There are also style analyzer programs.  Jim Gillogly once mentioned
one called SHAXICON.  I've also heard of one called Spotter 97 by Hugh
Cojones.  Both of these have been used to identify authors by their
dinstinctive style.  

>  My final point, for the present, concerns the VMs symbols
> themselves.  Having looked again at the Latin abbreviations that
> Mary D'Imperio gives such as Currier S for ra,ci,cri; Z for circ;
> D for ter,in-,im-; ID for -um; IID for -tum,-mum,-ntum; 9 for con,
> cum,com,-us,-os,-is,-s; 2 for cun,con,cum,quon; P for qu-is and
> several others plus Alchemy ones such as 4O for Oleum
> Tartari Sennerti; 8 for White Arsenic or Copper Plate; 8 and 89
> for Salt plus the World symbol we know to be on several folios
> ( Soapstone in Alchemy ) then no wonder we are confused.

	To me this still suggests a fanciful cipher script, derived from arcane
sources known to the author. 

>   If these abbreviations are being borrowed for another language
> then we need to think hard about the structure.  I suspect,
> although I have not yet asked him, that John Stojko started
> off with the gallows characters  and tried the logical structure
> F as y; P as xy; V as z; B as xz;  X as wy; Q as wxy; Y as
> wz; W as wxz.    Now put y=t; x=s ( or sh ); w=p; z=ch and
> we get F=t; P=s(h)t; V=ch; B=s(h)ch; X=pt; Q=pst; Y=pch and
> W=psch.  This gives a phonetic language with vowels omitted
> similar to the Latin abbreviations.  As a Slav language we can
> have the common Paragraph beginner B as s(h)cho also P as
> shto.   I wonder if any other group of languages fits the Gallows
> structure.

	Croatian and Slovenian are geographically close to northern Italy and
are written in the Latin alphabet <with tongue half in cheek>.  

	I also note that majority of the gallows characters in Capelli's Tavola
IV were embellished *single* characters.

	My 0.02 US$

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 16 19:35:03 1997
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From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Denis Mardle wrote:

>   If these abbreviations are being borrowed for another language
> then we need to think hard about the structure.  I suspect,
> although I have not yet asked him, that John Stojko started
> off with the gallows characters  and tried the logical structure
> F as y; P as xy; V as z; B as xz;  X as wy; Q as wxy; Y as
> wz; W as wxz.    Now put y=t; x=s ( or sh ); w=p; z=ch and
> we get F=t; P=s(h)t; V=ch; B=s(h)ch; X=pt; Q=pst; Y=pch and
> W=psch.

        For QWXY - what about the 'S' portion that begins with an 'i'
instead of a 'c' - or ends with a full 9? And then there's those
ridiculously disjuncted gallows... and the gallows with an extra 'h'
portion.  I can't speak for Ukrainian but Russian doesn't have any pt,
pst, pch, or psch type words.

> This gives a phonetic language with vowels omitted
> similar to the Latin abbreviations.  As a Slav language we can
> have the common Paragraph beginner B as s(h)cho also P as
> shto.   I wonder if any other group of languages fits the Gallows
> structure.
>

        Although, Shto or Chto in Russian is a common word by itself, it
doesn't necessarily have to be a paragraph starter - I don't know all
Slavic languages but assume that most of them are highly inflected thus
word order isn't important.        All the interrogative pronouns Chto,
Kto, Kakoj, Chej, Kotoryj, Skol'ko are declinable and in their other
forms couldn't be recognizable as a single VM character - Back to Chto
as an example --  If P = Cht and the vowels aren't represented, then you
could possibly supply the vowel 'o' and get Chto, but you couldn't make
O Chem for 'about what'. You would need the 'ch' sound represented in
words without the attached t and not always word initial like '4'.

        Alternate to the consonants described above - what about the
Gallows being dipthong representatio,  long vowels, or even the slavic
-iota vowels ya yu ye yo?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 16 23:26:03 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@paw.montana.com>
To: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: top-down analysis
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:20:39 -0600
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----------
From: 	Denis Mardle[SMTP:Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, September 16, 1997 9:50
To: 	voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	VMs:top-down analysis

>From Denis Mardle

  Now to the main VMs.   Reluctantly, but now with a reasonable
suggestion, I have to agree with the growing minority who believe
we have only one hand in the VMs as we see it.
Denis:
I think I'll remain with the majority. I think that the two hands are 
remarkably different, showing perhaps differing personalities. Hand 1 is 
neat, precise, small, and shows attention paid to the pen (btw, has anyone 
in the long VM history tried to determine the characteristics of the pens 
used?).  The second hand is more hurried, sloppier, larger characters, and 
the pen seems to be neither trimmed nor inked properly.  The second hand 
characters frequently are dimmer in patches.  Hmmm. need to look at this 
some more.  Looking at just these characteristics leads me to think there 
are definitely two scribes.

Best to all,
Don



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 07:32:02 1997
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Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis (this one is long)
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 Thanks Denis for the initiative.

 You bring up a variety of different subjects which have in
 common that they are observations more than speculation,
 and try to place the VMs in a framework. The speculative bit
 is still what it's all about though, and this is likely
 to be the main source of dicussion. If I may 'rubricate'
 your points (I'm not too happy with these categories but
 they may serve for now):

 1) MS Composition
   1a) Quires and folios
   1b) Subject matter

 2) Script
   2a) Voynich script
   2b) Quire and folio numbering
   2c) Extraneous writing

 3) Drawings

 4) Language/code

 Allow me also to rearrange your points according to
 the above, and add other comments. I will try to avoid
 too much duplication from D'Imperio.

 (1a):

 > [quire numbers] are regular at f8v,16v,24v,32v,40v,
 > 48v and 56v but irregular after that.

 There are two issues.  The first 7 quires all are
 a standard 4 bifolios. Then there are some with
 different numbers of folios, then there are some with
 foldouts and finally there is the thickest one which
 has standard sized pages again.
 The other issue is that still, usually, the quire number
 is written in the lower right corner of the last page in
 each quire, except on one of the foldouts, I think,
 and also on the last quire, where it is on the first page.
 Note that that bifolio cannot be refolded to make it fit
 the normal scheme.

 ...
 > Folio 12 must have gone missing after both sets of
> numbers were added.

 12 and 74 seem to have been 'cut out'. Others seem to have
 'fallen' out from the centres of quires. The missing
 quire numbers coincide with missing folio numbers.
 Probably a far-fetched idea, but, what if W.Voynich removed
 these and had them deposited in a safe where they
 can be used later as a control for a proposed solution...
 Anybody know about a will or anything?

 > I believe that folio numbers were always on the
 > right-hand page with the position of the number on the
 > folio being on the recto side for simple folios but
 > nearly always on the verso-2 page for multiple ones
 > because of the systematic way they were folded. The
 > only exception I can see is f67r1 which has the first
 > ( and only fold ) v2 onto v1.

With one single exception, the folio numbers are always in
the upper right corner of the pages when they are completely
folded. The one exception seems to be a fold that 'changed
direction' in the course of time. The folio numbers were
evidently written into the book after the book was completed
(but we're in the dark as to how long after).

  > I have discovered one new fact.  The folio gatherings
  > on f8v and f24v were written right at the bottom of
  > the page and f7v also f23v respectively must have been
  > sticking out a short distance since the tails of the
  > P and 9 (f8v) also 3 and 9 (f24v) have gone onto
  > the earlier folios.

  This indicates that they were also written into the
  complete book (can be checked with the original).

  (2a):

  > Reluctantly, but now with a reasonable suggestion, I have
  > to agree with the growing minority who believe we have
  > only one hand in the VMs as we see it.  This leads to
  > the view that we have a copy done by one scribe who has to
  > fit in the earlier document on the folios.   My simple
  > suggestion is that it is the earlier document that has the
  > variability and is in at least two hands and probably three
  > or more.  This would also fit the statistics

  This is countered by Don Latham.  At least we can conclude
  we have two schools of thought (with probably a lot of
  'agnostics' as well). Don's points:

  >Hand 1 is neat, precise, small, and shows attention paid
  >to the pen (btw, has anyone in the long VM history tried
  >to determine the characteristics of the pens used?).
  >The second hand is more hurried, sloppier, larger
  >haracters, and the pen seems to be neither trimmed nor
  >inked properly.  The second hand characters frequently
  >are dimmer in patches.  Hmmm. need to look at this some
  >more.  Looking at just these characteristics leads me to
  >think there are definitely two scribes.

  Probably you meant the size of the script in hands 1 and 2
  the other way round. Anyway, this is quite variable for
  hand 1, and some hand 2 text is very legible (e.g. the
  Bio section).

  Then Denis:

 > Having looked again at the Latin abbreviations that
> Mary D'Imperio gives (Mary's listed snipped) then no
 > wonder we are confused.

 Here Dennis S. reminds us of the information from Jim Reeds
 and Sergio Toresella:

 > [characters showing similarities with] Trandechino's
 > Renaissance cipher scripts,...

 which everybody can see for themselves as D'Imperio has one
 figure with a very similar style of cipher/script. I particularly
 like the feature that doublets are also replaced by a single
 code character.

> Capelli's gallows-like characters ...
 > I also note that majority of the gallows characters in
 > Capelli's Tavola IV were embellished *single* characters.

 ... the characters being embellished by writing the gallows
 on top of them. It was not always the same character being
 embellished either, if I recall correctly.

 > .. the "humanist style".  The last is particularly
 > important, since it may enable us to locate the VMs
 > in northern Italy in a specific portion of the 15th century.

At this point I might bring up the similarities of some
characters with the Beneventan script(Currier S for 't'
and was that Currier CC for 'a' ?), which is completely
at odds with the above observation, and which has been
rejected by Toresella.

(2b):

 > We know that folios were numbered by, perhaps, John Dee,
 > but only a few of us are sure that this is so, given
 > numbers only for a handwriting comparison.
 ...
 > ... the folio gatherings which we have no difficulty in
 > understanding as they are in Latin abbrevations for
 > First ( Primus ), Second etc .... The numbers are not
 > in the same hand as the folio numbers and I suspect
 > from Mary D'Imperio's illustration of numbers from
 > the 13th to the 16th century that the folio numbers
 > were put on in the 16th century but the folio
 > gatherings were earlier.  The Latin abbreviation
 > 9 for -us ... does not look to me to be in the same
 > hand as the VMs version of 9.

 (2c):

 > We have extraneous text which is difficult to transcribe and
 > in a language we are unsure of since we cannot get out the
 > meaning.  We do have a signature recoverable from f1r which
 > probably rules out a modern fake (but do we have other
 > independent examples of that signature ? ).

 Two points related to Tepenecz' signature: the signature
 would indicate he owned it for a while, not that he wrote
 it, correct?
 Then, who erased it? Either Tepenecz himself or a
 subsequent owner. If Tepenecz, then he may have been the
 one to sell it to Rudolph... not the most likely scenario.
 Another point. The only other (known) erased writing in
 the VMs is on the same page (f1r). I think we can safely
 assume both erasures were done at the same time. That means
 either:
 1) Tepenecz wrote the Ms and the key, erased both and sold
    it to Rudolph
 2) Both were erased by a subsequent owner after T's death,
    and the key is then certainly not the real key but
    a decipherer's attempt (probably either T's or the one
    who did the erasure)

 Further, given that Tepenecz is the only later Ms owner
 of whom we know he wrote something on the VMs, he should
 be considered a good candidate for having done the other
 extraneous writing....

 > The month names on the Zodiac pages are said to be in Medieval
 >  French.  How sure are we of this ?  At least we know they
 > ARE month names.

 Jacques counters this emphatically, i.e. not French but
 perhaps a Slavionic language, based on the Octember.
 D'Imperio gave a different reading for this month name
 I think....

  My problem: what do month names have to do with zodiac figures?
  Beats me.

  (3)

 > ...the World symbol we know to be on several folios

 If this is the T-O map I have to add that the only 'real'
 T-O map I ever saw was very different. The seas (the
 shape of the letter 'T') were not lines but areas with the
 names also written inside...

 Many illustrations might give a clue about the origin of
 the Ms and there are many details for which no explanation
 has been found at all.
 - There is a mysterious object held by at least three
   nymphs in the bio section. Is it a piece of garment?
   (f76v second one, f80v top one, f82r bottom left one)
 - There are quite a few animals scattered over the Ms.
   Two 'snakes' and a sketchy cartoon dragon in the Herbal,
   a frog-like creature in the Pharma section, two birds on
   f86v3, and five animals on f79v: a fish, a salamander(?),
   a lion, what looks a lot like a cat lying with all four
   legs stretched and something not dissimilar from the
   Scorpius emblem. Plus what looks like a horse on f116v.
 - The pharmaceutical containers look more like ornamental
   things than pharmaceutical equipment.  I am at a loss to
   explain what they could be made of... Metal? Glass?
   Wood? The shapes of some of the details could help dating
   the drawings I imagine...

 The small castle of f86r6 is probably just a fantasy castle,
but the components are very much of the style of Piemonte and
 surroundings, in N.Italy. There are more buildings
 drawn on this page, but also a volcano which has nothing
 to do with N.Italy. Now Southern Italy has at least
 three famous ones....

 The illustrations on f78v and f81r form one combined
 design: three similar tubs connected by flows of water.
 The intermediate bifolium (f79 and f80) gets in the way.
 Should this (78+81) have been the central bifolium in the
 quire? Is this evidence that the 'binder' could not understand
 the Ms himself?
 Did the Ms consist of a pile of loose (folded or unfolded)
 folios when it was first found?

 (4)

  > ... which indicate that Herbal-A, Herbal-B and
  >  Bio-B are homogeneous within the 3 groups but have
  > different statistics.  As well as different hands they
  > could have had slightly different, but related languages.
  > The copyist has made a neater job than I realised when
  > using smaller symbols to get the original text in the
  > available space ( and the known differences
> at line starts and endings probably made this essential ).
 > The person(s) copying the illustrations might have been
 > copying the earlier manuscript also.

If the Ms is a fair copy (which I can believe for a variety
of reasons) the copyist would have been involved in the
original as well.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 08:26:03 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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Status: OR

Hi all,

I am only adding some more comments.

On 18 Sep 97 at 13:27, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>  1) Tepenecz wrote the Ms and the key, erased both and sold
>     it to Rudolph
>  2) Both were erased by a subsequent owner after T's death,
>     and the key is then certainly not the real key but
>     a decipherer's attempt (probably either T's or the one
>     who did the erasure)

or 3) Rudolph bought it, did not have a clue of what was it about (I 
knew I had something in common with Rudolph! :-) ) and gave it to 
Jacobus who signed with some ink which has degraded with time.

Is it there any proof that it has been "erased" or is it that it 
cannot be seen properly? It is funny that the Petersen copy has it, 
so some of it must be a bit visible?

or 4) Jacobus wrote it and he signed it with some "invisible ink" 
in folio 1r (like lemon juice) that can be seen after the aging  with 
UV light. There are so many combinations...
 
>  Further, given that Tepenecz is the only later Ms owner
>  of whom we know he wrote something on the VMs, he should
>  be considered a good candidate for having done the other
>  extraneous writing....

Apart from the month names, there are 3 more places which I presume 
are the "barely legible" extraneous writing, and apart from "der mus 
del" (is this Ok?) the others have not been read or recognized as far 
as I remember (f17r and 116r).

>  - There is a mysterious object held by at least three
>    nymphs in the bio section. Is it a piece of garment?

Ah! that one... yes I have been wondering what it is since Rene 
pointed it out. I call it the "yellow submarine" :-); there is also 
another lady holding a latin cross in her hand in bio section.

>  The small castle of f86r6 is probably just a fantasy castle,
> but the components are very much of the style of Piemonte and
>  surroundings, in N.Italy. There are more buildings
>  drawn on this page, but also a volcano which has nothing
>  to do with N.Italy. Now Southern Italy has at least
>  three famous ones....

And people used to travel around during those days too... 

>  Did the Ms consist of a pile of loose (folded or unfolded)
>  folios when it was first found?

I remember that Mike Roe (are you there Mike?) suggested that each 
section of the book starts with a full text page, but what breaks the 
order is the 2nd part of the herbal near the end. I can't remember 
the alternative view of this problem which had to do with a mistake 
in the binding?

> If the Ms is a fair copy (which I can believe for a variety
> of reasons) the copyist would have been involved in the
> original as well.

It is possible, but I think that we have to agree that we just don't 
know if there was an original and who wrote it.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 10:38:08 1997
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Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis (this one real short)
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Gabriel writes:

> Jacobus wrote it and he signed it with some "invisible ink"
> in folio 1r (like lemon juice) that can be seen after the aging
> with UV light.

More likely 'mustard juice' :-)

Seriously though. Does anybody know if Aqua Sinapia was
used in baths, like in the bathing scenes of the VMs?

>> The small castle of f86r6 is probably just a fantasy castle,
>> but the components are very much of the style of Piemonte and
>> surroundings, in N.Italy. There are more buildings
>> drawn on this page, but also a volcano which has nothing
>> to do with N.Italy. Now Southern Italy has at least
>> three famous ones....

> And people used to travel around during those days too...

Yes, whoever drew this had seen one or two things.
As for the meaning, this circle could represent 'Italy'
or rather even 'Earth' given that the smaller circle
near it may be a map of the world. The other three circles
in the corners also have small additional circles. The 'clock'
rather seems like an alchemical symbol.

>> If the Ms is a fair copy (which I can believe for a variety
>> of reasons) the copyist would have been involved in the
>> original as well.

> It is possible, but I think that we have to agree that we
> just don't know if there was an original and who wrote it.

Yes, it's useful to make a list of pro's and con's before
speculating too much...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 03:08:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:52:47 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Month names (Re: VMs:top-down analysis)
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Denis Mardle wrote:

>  The month names on the Zodiac pages are said to be in Medieval
> French.  

They are not, emphatically not! We have been through all this
several times around. Plus, there is that "Octember" for 
October, and, a long time ago, someone here said that
it was typically Slavic.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 19:35:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:29:55 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Jacques Guy wrote:

> Denis Mardle wrote:
>
> >  The month names on the Zodiac pages are said to be in Medieval
> > French.
>
> They are not, emphatically not! We have been through all this
> several times around. Plus, there is that "Octember" for
> October, and, a long time ago, someone here said that
> it was typically Slavic.

       Now for $.02 Cdn (which is quite a bit less than American).  For
the months I can make out
marc, abril, may (the light one has a circumflex accent above the y),
octebre, and novebr.. I suppose you could compare them to Russian (a
little)  Marta, Avril, Maj (a character that does in fact have a line
over it in it's Cyrillic equivalent), OctYaBr' & NoYabr' (The Ya is a
single character that looks like a backwards R in the Cyrillic
Alphabet.   However, I think that one could place the spellings into a
large number of the European Languages... Mars, Avril,
Mai.(French).....  Marzo, Abril, Mayo (Spanish)..... Marco (with a
Cedilla), Abril, Maio (Portuguese) etc....

        Told ya it was worth less than the American two cents....
John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 17:44:10 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:34:27 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Did anyone go to the Prague Alchemy Conference?  If so, would they care
to comment?  Was there anything of Voynichological interest?

Just curious,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 21:32:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:29:13 -0500
To: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: Month names (Re: VMs:top-down analysis)
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At 07:29 PM 9/18/97 -0400, John Grove wrote:

>Jacques Guy wrote:
>
>> Plus, there is that "Octember" for
>> October, and, a long time ago, someone here said that
>> it was typically Slavic.

	I thought it was Jacques who said it was typically Slavic?

>       Now for $.02 Cdn (which is quite a bit less than American).  For
>the months I can make out
>marc, abril, may (the light one has a circumflex accent above the y),
>octebre, and novebr.. I suppose you could compare them to Russian (a
>little)  Marta, Avril, Maj (a character that does in fact have a line
>over it in it's Cyrillic equivalent), OctYaBr' & NoYabr' (The Ya is a
>single character that looks like a backwards R in the Cyrillic
>Alphabet.   

	Since the VMs was found in Prague, one would expect Czech (and perhaps
Jakop de Tepenecz!)  There isn't a y-circumflex in Czech, although there is
a y-acute accent.

	My $0.01 US.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 22:20:09 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: Month names (Re: VMs:top-down analysis)
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An Altavista search for "octembre" returned (among other things) a
sample page from the on-line OED server,

  http://www.oed.com/SAMPLES/october.oed.html
  
which contains

    October (ktb(r)). Also 37 -bre; in 7 sometimes abbrev. 8bre,
    8ber. [In OE. and mod.Eng. a. L.  October, -obrem, f. octo eight
    (orig. the eighth month of the year); in ME. a. F. Octobre (1303 in
    Hatz.-Darm.), ad. L. Octobrem, which supplanted the popular
    OF. oitovre. Med.L. had also the analogical form Octember, -imber,
    13th c. F. Octembre, Pr. Octembre.]              ^^^^^^^^
               ^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^
               
"Pr." is Provenal, I assume.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Please Try to Remember the First of Octember! (Dr. Seuss)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 22:17:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:16:12 -0500
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis (odd notes)
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At 01:27 PM 9/18/97 +0200, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>
> - There is a mysterious object held by at least three
>   nymphs in the bio section. Is it a piece of garment?
>   (f76v second one, f80v top one, f82r bottom left one)

	There's also a similar object in the outer circle, on the left,
of f85r2.

	FWIW.  The sistrum is an ancient, rattle-type musical instrument.  It is a
thin, metal frame with a handle on it.  In the frame are rods with rings or
metal disks.  The sistrum was sacred to the Goddess Isis.

	Levitov said that the nymph in f80v is Isis, and the mysterious object is
her sistrum!  He also said that the object in f85r2 is the sistrum of Isis.
 He didn't notice the other two.  :-)

	-- Another interesting object.  D'Imperio mentions *crosses* on f75r,
f75v, f78r, and f79v.  In my Petersen and other copies, I can only see the
one in f78r and the one held by the nymph in f79v (not the one over her)
(BTW, Levitov noted this too! ;-)  ).  I seem to recall that the crosses in
f75r&v and over the nymph in f79v were lying on their side.  Could someone
check this?

	This is quite unusual for a Latin cross.  In my symbol dictionary I find
that the *cross of Phillip* is a Latin cross lying on its side, with the
long arm toward the left.  "According to the legend, St. Phillip was
crucified on a cross in this position.  The cross of Phillip appears on the
flags of the Nordic countries and, for some reason, only on their flags..."
 (Liungman, Dictionary of Symbols, p. 244)
 
>  > ... which indicate that Herbal-A, Herbal-B and
>  >  Bio-B are homogeneous within the 3 groups but have
>  > different statistics.  

	As I said before, quantitative tests of styles/dialects/languages of known
texts could tell us about the nature of the difference between A & B.  

	In a similar vein, what about the line-beginning/middle/end statistics,
---  as noted in Currier's "line as a functional unit" and Jorge and Denis'
recent work?  Do poetry and songs display similar characteristics?  Maybe
quantitative work on known poetry and songs could tell us whether known
phenomena such as these could explain the "line as a functional unit"?

	More $0.01 US.  

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 23:08:07 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis (odd notes)
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    > 	In a similar vein, what about the line-beginning/middle/end statistics,
    > ---  as noted in Currier's "line as a functional unit" and Jorge and Denis'
    > recent work?  Do poetry and songs display similar characteristics?  Maybe
    > quantitative work on known poetry and songs could tell us whether known
    > phenomena such as these could explain the "line as a functional unit"?

Summarizing some possible explanations:

  1. Line breaking: if words are split across lines, line-extremal
  "words" will often be prefixes or suffixes of regular words.

  2. Word division: the spaces between "words" may be just calligraphic
  spaces ("kerning") after certain letters such as G, M, N, which 
  were mistook for word spaces by the copist.  In that case, it is
  conceivable that the proximity of a line break may have inhibited
  this misreading.

  3. Grammar: sentences tend to begin and end at line boundaries,
  and in most languages the word distribution depends on 
  position within a sentence.

  4. Text structure: reference works (like herbals, almanacs, etc.)
  often have an "itemized list" structure; the the item "headings"
  would skew the line-initial word distribution.

  5. Calligraphy: line-initial and line-final words may be written
  differently (capitals, ornate letters, decorative tails).

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 00:02:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:59:49 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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> I suspect we are all puzzled and somewhat frustrated at the miserly
>hard facts that we can get out of the VMs.

We have not yet verified many of the observations to be found on the Voynich
surface.  If the lady is wearing a hat, only accept the dating of the hat
once a picture of the very same can be drawn from at least two verifiable
sources.  List and identify every single Voynich character, matching each to
other calligraphic sources.  Perhaps we need a person interested in
collecting such data that can store and catalogue this information for
retrieval whenever needed.

>numbered by, perhaps, John Dee, but only a few of us are sure that
>this is so given numbers only for a handwriting comparison.

If you are one of those who is sure, I would appreciate your input.  This
has been a difficult match for me, and I have copies of many manuscripts
written in Dee's hand.  It is not unlike Dee's hand, but then again it is
not quite Dee's hand.  I would love to be persuaded one way or the other.

> The month names on the Zodiac pages are said to be in Medieval
>French.  How sure are we of this ?  At least we know they ARE month
>names.

How sure is everyone that the spelling of the month names do not correspond
to pieces of text extracted by an earlier reader who held the key?  Do the
month names match any significant features of the page in word length?

>  Now to the main VMs.   Reluctantly, but now with a reasonable
>suggestion, I have to agree with the growing minority who believe
>we have only one hand in the VMs as we see it.  This leads to
>the view that we have a copy done by one scribe who has to fit
>in the earlier document on the folios.   My simple suggestion is
>that it is the earlier document that has the variability and is in at
>least two hands and probably three or more...

Despite the appearance of the text, the text represents a large volume of
writing, and I should be able to discern an angular difference in the hand
between two authors, etc.  I cannot make any reasonable distinction between
the calligraphic elements of the different hands however.  I suggest we
interest a handwriting expert in this matter and try to form a more
informative view of the scribal side of the discussion.

The "lonely scribe" theory is also my belief, but works against my own
theories, since I believe the entire book to be the one and only copy ever
in existence.  Multiple scribes would reduce that possibility drastically,
as this would not have been the only scribal copy made if it were a team
effort.  We might expect at least a copy per scribe to have been produced.
Religious scribes almost always made more than one copy of their work, one
for sale, one for the library, maybe even one for their own personal
revenue.  Taking this into account, it would be strange if this was the only
copy that survived, without reference by anyone to the other copies.


Regards,   Rayman





From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 03:56:07 1997
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Dennis and/or Stolfi wrote:

    >> In a similar vein, what about the
    >> line-beginning/middle/end statistics,
    >> ---  as noted in Currier's "line as a
    >> functional unit" ?

> Summarizing some possible explanations:

Of the five I like most:

> 4. Text structure: reference works (like herbals, almanacs,
> etc.) often have an "itemized list" structure; the the item
> "headings" would skew the line-initial word distribution.

But generally speaking there are such odd features of
the line statistics that the only thing I can really
imagine to have caused it is a line-by-line encoding
manner  (where encoding could be as simple as converting
a text to Voynich script, but I think there is more).

Any encoding scheme that 'runs on (i.e. the next
character depends on the previous one(s)) may have been
interrupted consistently at the beginning of a line.

Still this does not explain on or two really strange
features.

My two Euro-cents (which don't yet exist :-))

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 05:11:09 1997
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Frogguy wrote:

> I also think that the zodiacal signs
> were late additions.

This uncomfortable (to me) thought has been suggested
before, in Manly's article (Speculum 1931, Jim Reeds'
bibliography item 51). He does not elaborate on this
and leaves the impression that he took over this idea
from someone else but I may have been reading that
between the lines. I would really appreciate if you
could say why you are of this opinion.

I find myself incapable of judging the drawing style,
but thought they were not that different from the rest.
On the other hand the zodiac figures are facing left which
is against the majority of figures in the VMs. This
may not mean anything - I really don't know.

If they were a later addition, the circles would have been
without emblems in the centre, which would have made them
unique in the Ms. Then the question arises: would the
person who added them have known that they should have been
there or did he just do that because he thought it made
sense. He must have wondered about the double Arietes
and Tauri, so it cannot have made all that much sense.
The 'rope knot' star should have been there already
in the original version, as it completes the set of 30
and has a label.

Dennis suggested (without himself believing it, I think)
that the mysterious object could be a sistrum. I need to
look again, but they certainly do not look at all like
the sistrums and images on vases thereof that have been
excavated in Crete.
But perhaps this is the medieval equivalent of them? They
certainly did not have the advantage of beign able to see
the items found in the palace of Knossos...
Is Levitov more explicit? Did Cathars ever really use
sistrums (sistra???) ?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 08:17:11 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Month names in occitan
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I have asked around for the month names in Occitan (a
group of languages from Southern France that includes 
Provenal, Gascon, etc.)  I got the following responses 
so far:

Toulon
genier
febrier
mar
abriu
mai
junh
julh[1]
august[2] (now avost)
setembre
octbre
novembre
decembre

[1] now  (but now julhet)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 08:26:12 1997
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[Sorry for the previous post, I pressed the send key by mistake...]

I have asked around for the month names in Occitan (a
group of languages from Southern France that includes 
Provenal, Gascon, etc.)  I got the following responses 
so far:

Gascon(*)      Std. Occit.(*) Toulon(**)
-------------- -------------- -------------
genir         genir         genier
heurr         febrir        febrier
mar           mar           mar
abriu          abril          abriu
mai            mai            mai
junh           junh           junh
julhet         julhet         julh[1]
agost          agost          august[2]
setmer        setembre       setembre
octbre        octbre        octbre
navmer        novembre       novembre
decmer        decembre       decembre

(*)  By Mathias van den Bossche <mathias@idefix.mpipks-dresden.mpg.de>
(**) By Eric Aspert <aspert@univ-perp.fr>

[1] now julhet
[2] now avost

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 09:11:09 1997
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Dennis wrote:

> Levitov includes the classic plate from Kircher of Isis
> standing over the Nile holding her sistrum (someone called
> it "that thing that looks like a veggie scraper".  :-)  )

Does "that thing" look at all like the VMs mystery object?

I am always reminded of diving goggles, especially the one
which is dangling from the hand of one of the nymphs.
That is certainly not the way in which one holds a sistrum!

The diving goggles would be somewhat anachronistic,
but after I have seen:

http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/c-humanism/images/human
20.jpg

I can believe anything :-)

 > The *real* Cathars did not use sistra

 But Isis worshippers, which _did_ (do?) exist, did?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 08:47:08 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> Dennis suggested (without himself believing it, I think)
> that the mysterious object could be a sistrum. 

	I certainly don't believe it.  I just thought Levitov's identification
was amusing.  The object that the nymph in f80v is holding looks like a
flower bulb to me more than anything.  The line of dots or holes on the
side of the object don't look like a flower bulb, though.  It was that
feature that made Levitov think of the sistrum, which fit his idea of
Isis worship.  Levitov includes the classic plate from Kircher of Isis
standing over the Nile holding her sistrum (someone called it "that
thing that looks like a veggie scraper".  :-)  )

	I can't identify the object in f85r2, at the left in the outermost
ring.  It has the holes/dots, but isn't pear-shaped like a flower bulb. 
It looks like a hollow, cylindrical shell with a slot in it. 

> I need to
> look again, but they certainly do not look at all like
> the sistrums and images on vases thereof that have been
> excavated in Crete.
> But perhaps this is the medieval equivalent of them? They
> certainly did not have the advantage of beign able to see
> the items found in the palace of Knossos...
> Is Levitov more explicit? Did Cathars ever really use
> sistrums (sistra???) ?

	The *real* Cathars did not use sistra (it's a Latin word, from Greek
sistron, I think).  As I've shown at length, historic Catharism was a
variant form of Christianity, not Isis worship, and I've never seen that
they used sistra.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 09:23:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:17:30 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> > Levitov includes the classic plate from Kircher of Isis
> > standing over the Nile holding her sistrum (someone called
> > it "that thing that looks like a veggie scraper".  :-)  )
> 
> Does "that thing" look at all like the VMs mystery object?

	Not to me.  The dots/holes in the side of the VMs mystery object make
it look somewhat like a sistrum viewed from the side.  (Once again, the
sistrum had long rods in a frame, with rings or plates on the rods.  It
worked like a tambourine, but the rods were long and mounted
longitudinally instead of vertically.)  However, the thing that the
nymph in f80v is holding is pear-shaped, and not like a rack viewed from
the side.  The thing in f85r2 looks hollow and cylindrical to me, and
not like a rack.  

>  > The *real* Cathars did not use sistra
> 
>  But Isis worshippers, which _did_ (do?) exist, did?

	Yes.  But that was in ancient Egypt/Greece/Rome, up to perhaps 4-500
AD.  At an exhibition of Egyptian artifacts, I saw a beautifully-painted
papier-mache life mask and coffin cover of a woman, about 350 AD, who
was an Isis worshipper.  It was very life-like.  But there's no evidence
at all of Isis worship surviving the fall of the Roman Empire.  That's
pure fantasy on Levitov's part.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 12:29:08 1997
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Subject: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
To: voynich@rand.org (Voynich Manuscript List)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
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Looking at this marvelous traffic reviewing all our thoughts and
knowledge about the VMs, I am humbled by everyone's expertise. But,
since my best skills are in archaeoastronomy, I thought I'd delve a
little further into the study of planetary conjunctions during the
possible provenance of the VMs and their possible influence on the
astronomical/zodiac pages.

I calculated and posted a list of 14th century conjunctions last year,
but I later realized these are common enough that it's less likely they
would show up in the VMs unless they have some special astrological
significance (which I will let someone skilled in medieval astrology
explore). Rarer are the conjunctions of three or more planets, so I
decided to search systematically for them.

As a preliminary test, I searched for conjunctions of Venus, Mars,
Jupiter and Saturn for the period 1300 - 1600. My software can only
search for two-planet conjunctions, so I ran it for all possible pairs
and then sorted the results by date and looked for nearby sets of dates,
since in a triple conjunction the faster planet will successively do a
close pass by one slower planet followed soon by another.

This is not an exhaustive list. I searched only for conjunctions less
than 30 minutes of arc apart (the diameter of a Full Moon). It is
possible that there exist other visually impressive groupings of planets
where only one pair (or none) were this close together. However, these
tight groupings would certainly catch the attention of medieval
skywatchers.

Here's the short list
				Visibility
Date		Planets		(Morn./Eve.)	Comments
1325/06/30	Ven-Jup-Sat	Morning		Moved to lovely
						three-in-line on July 1st

1345/03/02	Mar-Jup-Sat	Morning		Crescent waning
						Moon adjacent. 
						Very spectacular!

1423/08/04	Ven-Mar-Jup	Evening		Joined by New Moon
						and Mercury,  faintly visible

1483/10/27	Ven-Mar-Jup	Morning		Loose grouping, but
						rose early, so easier to spot. 

1504/08/02	Ven-Jup-Sat	Morning		Saturn and Venus
						nearly touching 07/30.

1524/02/06	Ven-Mar-Jup-Sat	Evening		Venus might be lost in
						sunset.

1563/08/11	Ven-Jup-Sat	Morning		Very clear
						spectacular tight grouping.

My next step will be to use my astromony software tools to program a
special-purpose engine to search for all interesting multiple
conjunctions during this period.  Stay tuned.

Hope someone finds this information useful.
-Adams Douglas
 San Diego, CA



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Sep 18 22:02:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:57:38 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Month names (Re: VMs:top-down analysis)
References: <E0xAzpd-0002J9-00@snow.btinternet.com> <3421B0BF.45B2@trl.telstra.com.au> <3421B96E.A232A1D5@fox.nstn.ca>
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John Grove wrote:
> I can make out
> marc, abril, may (the light one has a circumflex accent above the y),
> octebre, and novebr

The e has a macron over it in those names, which was 
the standard abbreviation for m or n. From memory, March 
is marz,June is juni. It's that octembre which rules out
Romance languages. It figures that those captions
are late additions. I also think that the zodiacal signs
were late additions.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 15:17:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:14:47 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Here is my contribution to the proliferation of VMS web pages:

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voynich.htm

	Today the main attraction is...

a new alliterative sobriquet for the VMs!

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 19 23:59:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:55:51 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
To: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Of all the e-mails I could answer or ignore, this one just caught me right
between the eyes.  Douglas, is your software capable of calculating observed
lunar days for different latitudes?



Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 02:50:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:37:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
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On 19 Sep 97 at 9:25, Adams Douglas wrote:
> This is not an exhaustive list. I searched only for conjunctions less
> than 30 minutes of arc apart (the diameter of a Full Moon). It is
> possible that there exist other visually impressive groupings of planets
> where only one pair (or none) were this close together. However, these
> tight groupings would certainly catch the attention of medieval
> skywatchers.

I know very (VERY)  little about astronomy, so forgive my question. 
Do these groupings only work for a particular location only? I mean, 
would somebody in northern England see the same thing as somebody 
else in southern Italy?

There is somewhere in the net a Windows shareware package (SkyMap) I 
saw some time ago which looked very nice and  allowed you to set 
dates/places and "watch the sky".  It may be interesting to set those 
dates in it,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Sep 20 11:20:07 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re:Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 16:14:15 +0100
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  From Denis Mardle

<Hope someone finds this information useful.
<-Adams Douglas
 <San Diego, CA

 Yes.  I did some work earlier in 1997 using 
Nightsky on my old Archimedes.  See my notes
on Trigons etc.     The prize is to get the four
configurations in the corners of f67v2 with all
having four faces except the top left which has 
three.  Top right and bottom right have labels and
bottom left has multiple colours.
 You may need to bring in Mercury.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep 21 09:44:09 1997
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Subject: Re: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
Status: OR

To: @btinternet.com
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:39:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <E0xCRAy-0005PL-00@snow.btinternet.com> from "Denis Mardle" at Sep 20, 97 04:14:15 pm
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>  Yes.  I did some work earlier in 1997 using 
> Nightsky on my old Archimedes.  See my notes
> on Trigons etc.     The prize is to get the four
> configurations in the corners of f67v2 with all
> having four faces except the top left which has 
> three.  Top right and bottom right have labels and
> bottom left has multiple colours.
>  You may need to bring in Mercury.

In my special-purpose code, I plan to add Mercury and the Moon since I
found two situations where they showed up as interesting while looking at
the dates I found. But I also want to make sure to discard configurations
that were not fully visible because they were too close to the Sun. I found
a couple of cases I threw out when I checked them by hand because they
essentially had the Sun on top of them.

I should really go order the Scientific Astronomer package for Mathematica,
but it's even more than Dance of the Planets cost me 4 years ago.

As an aside, that last conjunction I found also had Neptune in the middle
of it. I wonder if anyone knew?
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep 21 10:38:11 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C1256519.0041B92E.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:17:41 +0200
Subject: Re: Uranus, Neptune
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Frogguy wrote:

> A popular book I have on astronomy says that when Gauss
> discovered the phases of Venus, he was even more
> astonished at discovering that his mother knew about
> them all along, so acute was her eyesight.

Gauss -> Galileo?

This is the first time I hear this story. It has all
the marks of an urban legend. But I want to be open-minded
and will check it out. Could you confirm, Jacques, that
it was really Gauss? His discovery would be an
independent one... Not impossible, I have already
'discovered' one supernova and one comet :-)
And the planet Saturn :-) :-)

>I wouldn't be too surprised if some cultures knew
>about Uranus. After all, wouldn't acute eyesight
>be a top criterion for selecting astronomers in
>the days of no telescopes?

I think it would be possible to see Uranus, but there
are no records as far as I know. This does not exclude
it of course, but astronomical knowledge has always been
treasured, passed on from one culture to the next,
and all historical evidence is now being scrutinised
by many experts...
It would be a discovery of some interest if this were
ever confirmed.

> But Neptune... I don't know. Even if it could have
> been visible to some, it move so slowly...

I doubt it would be visible to anyone. But even if it were,
there are of the order of 10,000 objects of the same
magnitude. I think it can be excluded.
(Note that the asteroid Vesta can become brighter even
than Uranus. It was not even the first asteroid to be
discovered.)

There are records of astronomers observing
Neptune and writing it down as a star, well before its
discovery. They were using telescopes though.

Sorry for the off-topic post

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep 21 11:47:09 1997
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Subject: Re: Uranus, Neptune
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:45:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <C1256519.0041B92E.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> from "rzandber@esoc.esa.de" at Sep 21, 97 02:17:41 pm
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> I think it would be possible to see Uranus, but there
> are no records as far as I know. This does not exclude
> it of course, but astronomical knowledge has always been
> treasured, passed on from one culture to the next,
> and all historical evidence is now being scrutinised
> by many experts...
> It would be a discovery of some interest if this were
> ever confirmed.

In Galileo's observation journals where he drew the configurations of
Jupiter's moons, he would always include stars that appeared in the
telescope field. On one drawing, there is a star represented which
shouldn't be there (I'll have to look up the date). Turns out it was
Uranus, but Galileo was concentrating on Jupiter so he didn't pay
attention to this new star/planet.

But this does contitute the earliest documented observation of Uranus so
far.
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep 21 12:35:07 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs:top-down analysis,Zodiac
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:36:03 +0100
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>From Denis Mardle                                             21 Sept 1997

The responses to my "kick-start" have been
useful, detailed and need more thought.

The question of which language for the Zodiac
months is now much more open.  Clearly we
can rule out languages in Europe and nearby
that have too many differences, but a list of 
nearly correct names would be helpful.  I don't
even know if the Slav or other peripheral ones
need to be included.   Spelling in the Middle
Ages seems to have been vary variable as I
have seen even in English as late as the early
18th century.   Shakespeare seems to have
had his name spelt in several ways.
 Does anyone on the list work at the EEC in
Brussels ?  If so they might be able to minute
all the current members, prospective members
and other Countries that are relevant to enquire
what are the Current and past names (for all
languages in their domains) for
 A)  Months  B) Days of the week C) numbers
up to twenty D) Planets  and E) Zodiac signs
 This list is in priority order, approximately.

 So, for the UK we would have English,Welsh,
Cornish, Scots Gaelic  and for the Republic of
Ireland - Irish Gaelic.  One also needs Anglo-Saxon,
Medieval English etc.
 With a nearly complete list ( and excluding Dialects
which would be too local) we ought to be able to score
for the best languages.

  On the Zodiac pages it has been noted that the 
general quality of the pictures degenerates as one 
goes from Pisces to Sagitarius.  This is my one
worry about the copying theory.   It is also true that
there is a change in the label statistics.  Take the
initial digraphs 'ot' and 'ok' ( using eva ) remembering
that the total counts for each month are 29 or 30.
 The other 'o' starters are also given.
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
psc 16 8   1
ar1  10 3   1   1
ar2  12 2 
ta1   6  2   2       1
ta2   6  2        1  1   1    1
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
gem 8 16           1              1
cnc  3  1   2       2         1    4    1   5   2   1
leo   6 10  1       1         1    1              2       1
vir    2   7  2       2   1          1         1   4             1
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
lib    3  9                                  1       7        2           1
   1
sco  8 10  1
sgr   3   5           2               1                      1

Totals for PSC,AR1,AR2,TA1,TA2
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      50 17  4  2   2   1    1
Totals for GEM and rest
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      33 58  6  -   8   1    2    8    2    6 15  1   4   1      1     1   
1

The 'ot' to 'ok'  ratio is particularly relevant.

The month totals starting 'o' are
25,29,23,26,22,23,21,24,19,12

Denis
  
  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep 21 16:29:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:24:55 -0400 (EDT)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Venus and Uranus
Status: OR

There is no way you can see the phases of Venus with the unaided eye. They're
beyond the reach of small binoculars. However, I've often thought I could see
the crescent of Venus, when I knew perfectly well it was there, even though I
do not have very good vision. I wonder if Gauss's mother (more than a century
after Galileo) had the same experience.

The discovery of the phases of Venus was a real threat to the priests, since
it disproved the medieval model that required no changes in heavenly bodies
beyond the Moon. Thus Galileo published only in ciphered form his observation
that "the mother of the loves emulates the phases of Cynthia."

I haven't hauled my telescope out of the closet to look, but according to my
ephemeris (Guy Ottewell's Astronomical Calendar) Venus in the evening sky is
a little more than half illuminated right now, and will be a crescent by
December.

There are several records of Uranus being seen before the Herschels,
including one by Galileo, but I know of none before telescopes. To find
Uranus (east of Sagittarius now) I take my laptop computer to a place with a
dark sky, set it on the hood of my car, start up an astronomy application,
and look with my binoculars. It ain't easy.

I suppose there were asteroid sightings before 1801, but I don't know of any.

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist
Knoxville TN
rsrichmond@aol.com

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep 21 10:32:13 1997
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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:01:25 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
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Adams Douglas wrote:
 
> As an aside, that last conjunction I found also had Neptune in the middle
> of it. I wonder if anyone knew?

A popular book I have on astronomy says that when Gauss 
discovered the phases of Venus, he was even more
astonished at discovering that his mother knew about
them all along, so acute was her eyesight. 
I wouldn't be too surprised if some cultures knew
about Uranus. After all, wouldn't acute eyesight
be a top criterion for selecting astronomers in
the days of no telescopes? But Neptune... I don't
know. Even if it could have been visible to some,
it move so slowly... I wonder nevertheless.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Sep 21 21:20:07 1997
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From: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:17:39 +0800
Subject: Re: Uranus, Neptune
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With regard to Uranus: yes, there are urban
legends that Uranus features in Arabic astrology
as a "dark planet" - and, after all, one would be
rather more likely to spot it in the desert sky.

Definitely, *not* an urban legend, however, is
Newton's reference in Vol I of the Principia to
"Jupiter, Saturn and other higher planets".  He
fer sure knew something few others knew.

However, to asperge with cold water - I doubt
the authors of the VMs laid out their diagrams
with anything like enough accuracy to allow a
specific date to be identified astronomically,
not even 1483, the date of foundation of my old
school. (!)

TTFN
Robert




From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 02:23:08 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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    > The discovery of the phases of Venus was a real threat to the
    > priests, since it disproved the medieval model that required no
    > changes in heavenly bodies beyond the Moon. Thus Galileo
    > published only in ciphered form his observation that "the mother
    > of the loves emulates the phases of Cynthia."

Well, not exactly.  It would be some time before "the priests" would
feel threatened; and Galileo did not "publish" the cyphered
announcement.

He sent it by letter to his friend Kepler in Prague, so as to have
proof of precedence in case anyone stole his discovery before it came
out in print. Apparently that was common enough practice among
scientists at the time.

If I well remember, in Kepler's reply he correctly guesses the meaning
of the cypher, and compliments Galileo for his discovery.

Some time later Galileo sent another cypher to Kepler, announcing his
discovery of Saturn's ring.  He didn't understand what he saw, so his
announcement said something as "The father of time is tripartite".
Kepler couldn't figure out that one. (Years later Galileo was quite
disturbed when he looked again at Saturn and could not see the
"handles" he had seen before.  He happened to look when the righs were
sideways...)

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 02:35:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 03:28:44 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis,Zodiac
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Status: OR


    > With a nearly complete list (and excluding Dialects
    > which would be too local) we ought to be able to score
    > for the best languages.

I suppose medieval French, Provenal, and their dialects are
still the strongest candidates, no?  

Who first proposed the "French connection"?  Some of the scholars?

    >       ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
    > psc 16 8   1
    > ar1  10 3   1   1
    > ar2  12 2 
    > ta1   6  2   2       1
    > ta2   6  2        1  1   1    1
    >       ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
    > gem 8 16           1              1
    > cnc  3  1   2       2         1    4    1   5   2   1
    > leo   6 10  1       1         1    1              2       1
    > vir    2   7  2       2   1          1         1   4             1
    >       ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy

Dennis, what font did you use to compose these tables?  My mail tool
uses a fixed-pitch font (Courier), and I haven't been able to make
sense of any of the tables you sent so far.

Perhaps your editor is inserting TABs, and some mailer along the way is
removing them?

If you wrote "0" for the null entries, I could at least realign the 
columns myself...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 03:08:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 03:59:57 -0300 (EST)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: "H" versus "D"
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Status: OR


The difference between the "H" and "D" gallows (in FSG notation;
"t" and "k" in EVA) is a loop at the top of the leftmost "pole".

One may ask whether this difference is significant.  I have been
looking into this question, and I can't seem to find any clear
evidence that the two shapes are different letters.

The two symbols seem to have very similar digram and word statistics.
Roughly, for every common enough word using "D", the analogous "H" word 
occurs too, with about 1/4 the frequency.

Here is another test which fails to show a difference.  
I looked at all pairs of words that (1) differ by 
a "D"/"H" exchange, (2) both occur in the Bilogical section,
at least once each and 5 times total.

Then I prepared a map that shows the position along that
section where those words occur.  Here it is:

                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 2OEHCC8G     ................1...............................................
   5 2OEDCC8G     ........................1............................11.2.......
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 4OEHCC8G     .........................................................1......
   8 4OEDCC8G     ..............1...1..........1.2............1...........1.....1.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  23 4OHAE        .............1...11..12.....21.1..11...1.1.1...1.2112..1........
 106 4ODAE        211.4111..41.....214562....131..112341142111.261.524211275112..1
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 4OHAEG       ........1.......................................................
   6 4ODAEG       ....2............1......1.....................1..........1......
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 4OHAL        ..1.............................................................
   4 4ODAL        1......................1.........1....1.........................
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  15 4OHAM        ................213.....1...1......1.2.........12...1...........
  85 4ODAM        .........3.2..12536.341.4...21.11.1111431...1.243..352.15421...1
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  22 4OHAN        .....1..2......2.11...........312.3....2..1..1.........2........
 150 4ODAN        4843481..3.....1142.2525231.523612746723731.1.11.25511.1131.2.21
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  14 4OHAR        1.1...1........1.....1.....11.....11...1...........1...1...11...
  47 4ODAR        311.122.122......1........1231...14112.1...1.2.1..311...111...2.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  46 4OHC8G       ...11111.....11.2432.11..2.....1.1....2...2...11131...11..3222..
 161 4ODC8G       1419322311.2.55.31.55793452..1.53.1.112...1414.4143.247211632553
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 4OHCC8       ............1................................................1..
   5 4ODCC8       ....1..1.....................................1...........1...1..
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  40 4OHCC8G      ...21.1.....131.522...1...12..32.......11..1..1..1..4.11....1.1.
 152 4ODCC8G      3.48..313.1134437942213314...1.91252111..22...25723.213252523311
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   7 4OHCCG       ...1.............1.........1...................111...........1..
  85 4ODCCG       .12..3.531..112..31.1.21...2..13532.31..1131.11242.12.3.413.1223
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   8 4OHCG        ........1........1.............1....1.....2......11.............
  40 4ODCG        ..22..21133....1....2..1.112.....1.1....11.1.1.1.1....2...2..114
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  26 4OHG         ..1....1...1......1..1......2.1....22..14....2..22..1......11...
  58 4ODG         33.1221...11...4.1..2.2.......1113.12.1.2...1221.1223.31...1.22.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   6 4OHOE        ................1..1....................2........1.........1....
  18 4ODOE        ......1.......1.2.....11....1.111.....11.11......111........1...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 4OHSC8G      ..............................1....................1............
   7 4ODSC8G      .1............1.............11.1....................11..........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 4OHT8G       ......1................1........................................
  10 4ODT8G       1...1..1...............1.....1........2......1.......2..........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 4OHTC8G      ........................1............................1.....1....
   7 4ODTC8G      ....................1......................1.........12.1..1....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 4OHTCG       ............................11..................................
   4 4ODTCG       ..............................1...................11...........1
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 4OHTG        .....................1............11............................
   6 4ODTG        ..............1.....1...1...1.........................1.....1...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 4OHZCG       .............................................1..................
   4 4ODZCG       ...........1........................1...........1......1........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 EHAM         ..................1.............................................
   5 EDAM         ...........1..........1...............2.........1...............
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 EHAN         1...............................................................
   5 EDAN         .......11...............1.............1........................1
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 EHC8G        ..1..........................................1..................
   7 EDC8G        .......1...1.1..................................1.1...11........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 EHCC8G       .............1.................................1................
   6 EDCC8G       .......11..1..1.........1......................1................
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 GHAN         1..........1....................................................
   3 GDAN         ....1...................1...................................1...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   6 GDC8G        ............1.........1.1....................1..............1.1.
   8 GHC8G        ......1.................1..1.................4.............1....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 GHCC8G       ......................1...1....1................................
  10 GDCC8G       ......1.................1.......11........1..1....1.......11.1..
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   4 GHCCG        ............1................1...1...........1..................
   7 GDCCG        1........................1...1..11...1.........1................
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 OEHAE        ...........................1....................................
   4 OEDAE        ..............................1..........11...................1.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 OEHAM        ........................................1.......................
   9 OEDAM        ....................1......1.1......1......21......1..........1.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 OEHAN        ...........................1.............1......................
  24 OEDAN        .....1.................2.1......2..1111142..1.1...121.........1.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 OEHAR        ...........................1....................................
   6 OEDAR        1..................................1....11.1............1.......
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 OEHC8G       ..1..................1....................1.....................
  19 OEDC8G       .....12....11.1.......22.1.............1..111.............121...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 OEHCC8G      .............................1........1.........................
  15 OEDCC8G      ...1....................11......2.....1.......2...121...1.1..1..
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  20 OHAE         ......1..1.1..........1....13.1...1.1112..........1.11.........2
  21 ODAE         ..11..1.....2......1....1111......1.....2..111.1..1........1.11.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 ODAEG        ........................1...........1...........................
   3 OHAEG        .........................1............1............1............
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  13 OHAM         ...............1..........111....1..1.1.1..........1..21...1....
  33 ODAM         ...1.1..11..1..2.12.1...1.....2.3...12.2....3.....1....1211.1..1
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  25 OHAN         .1...11....2..............1122..13.1.11....12..1..111...........
  41 ODAN         ......1112.21..........2......1.212323.121211..11.11..1....1..21
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  19 ODAR         1..1.1..11.31.........1....2....11......1.1.......2...........1.
  22 OHAR         .133..1...1.1.1.......1.12.....1..1.1.....1...1...........11....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 OHC8AR       ............1................................................1..
   3 ODC8AR       .............1..............................................2...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  44 ODC8G        ...21.12..121..1.1.1...213.....1..1.........111......1....113644
  50 OHC8G        ..133.1...122411.1..1.3.13......1..1......211..1....1.21.112241.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  16 ODCCG        1.....1.2......1.........1...111.2........1.111............1....
  18 OHCCG        ......11..1..................1..21..11....21..1.1......11..1.1..
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  11 ODCG         1......1..................11.....1..............1............113
  13 OHCG         ...1..111......1......2..........1....1...12................1...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 OHCOE        ..............1............................1...................1
   3 ODCOE        ..........................1...................1.........1.......
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  12 ODG          ...........3..........11.......1...1......1..11...11............
  17 OHG          ..11...1..2.1..1.......1.1......1111...1..1.......1........1....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   6 ODOE         ........1.............1...1.1............................1....1.
   8 OHOE         ......1........1................11.1.....1...................11.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 ODSC8G       .1..........................................1...............1...
   4 OHSC8G       ...........................1.1.....................1......1.....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 OHSCG        .............................1..1...............................
   3 ODSCG        ......1......................1...........1......................
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 ODTC8G       ..................................1...........1.................
   3 OHTC8G       .............................1........................1.....1...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   4 OHTCG        ...........................1.1........................1....1....
   6 ODTCG        1.........................1...1.....1...........1.......1.......
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 ODTG         ..........1....................1................................
   2 OHTG         ............1.............................................1.....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   7 SCCHG        ..11............2.....1....1..........1.........................
   8 SCCDG        1...1....1.......................1....1......1.....1.........1..
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   6 SCHG         ......1........1..................2..11.........................
  11 SCDG         ...1...........1..............1.1.21.1.........1.1............1.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  13 SCHZG        ..1......1..1.....................131..2.............11....1....
  19 SCDZG        ....22........2.........1.........1122.1......11.11..1..........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 SHZC8G       .............1..................................................
   6 SDZC8G       ...............1......1.......................1.......2...1.....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 SHZCG        ................1....................................1.....1....
   5 SDZCG        ..............1....................1............1....1...1......
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  12 SHZG         .........11..........1.............2.1.1.1...........2....11....
  24 SDZG         ...1..1.2.22.............11.1........11..1...21.........1.112.11
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 TCCHG        ..................1...............1.............................
  11 TCCDG        ..1............1.1.....111.........1........1....1....1..1......
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   4 TCHG         ....1....................1.........1..................1.........
  12 TCDG         ..1..1...............21..............1.......11....1..1...1..1..
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  17 TCHZG        .1......1....1.................1...123.11............11...2..1..
  21 TCDZG        ......1.1.....4...11.1.11...1....11..2......1.....1.1....1.1....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 THZ8G        .......................................................1........
   5 TDZ8G        .......................2..........................1...1...1.....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 THZC8G       ..1.........1...................................................
   5 TDZC8G       ...............1......1..................................1...2..
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 THZCG        ......................1.........................................
   9 TDZCG        ...11.......1....1........11......1..............1..........1...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  20 THZG         1.........2......1.......1.121....121.1...2.......1....1...11...
  35 TDZG         1.1....11222..2..1..2..1......11..12..11.2..211...1.1...1.2....1
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 DAE          1........1.....................................................1
   8 HAE          .............................1...1....211............1.1........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   4 HAM          ...............1...........................1...1.1..............
   6 DAM          ....................1.............1..1..1...1.....1.............
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   4 HAN          ...............1...1...1............1...........................
  14 DAN          ..2.1...11.......................1....1132.............1........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 DAR          .......................1...1....1...............................
   5 HAR          ................................1.............1...1..1.....1....
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  11 DC8G         .....1.................31.1...........1........1.............2.1
  20 HC8G         1...2.1.........1.....2.1.1......1........1...1...1......112..21
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   4 HCC8G        ..............1....1........................1...............1...
  10 DCC8G        .1.21......11..1......1..1.............1........................
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   3 DOE          .......1..1..............................................1......
   6 HOE          .....1................................12.1............1.........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 DSCG         .1.................1............................................
   3 HSCG         ............................1...1...............1...............
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   1 DTC8G        .....................1..........................................
  11 HTC8G        ..1..........2.1......1..........11...............1.111.........
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 HTCG         ......................................2.........................
   4 DTCG         .....1.........................1......1............1............
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
   2 DZCG         1................................................1..............
   3 HZCG         .1.......................................................1..1...
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------

  Each character position of the map represents one "block" of 100
  consecutive words from the Bilogical section.  The character is "." if
  the word at left does not occur in that block; otherwise it is a
  digit showing the number of occurrences.  Thus, for example,
  the last line says that HZCG occurs three times in the Bio section,
  once in block 2 and once each in blocks 58 and 61.
  
  My interpretation of this map is that "H" and "D" do seem
  equivalent: whenever the occurrences of one are clustered, those of
  the other are clustered too, roughly in the same place.
  
  What do you say? 
  
--stolfi
  
  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 03:35:07 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C125651A.00281693.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:30:38 +0200
Subject: Re: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
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Gabriel wrote:

> Do these groupings only work for a particular location only?
> I mean, would somebody in northern England see the same
> thing as somebody else in southern Italy?

The groupings would be the same, but the chance to see them depends
on your location. Only eclipses are very localised. They are also the
short-lived
phenomena one might miss if one is on the wrong side of the globe.
Other such rare things are occultations of planets by the moon
In Northern Europe certain bright stars listed by Ptolemy would bever be
visible, and planetary conjuntions in (say) Sagittarius would not be as
spectacular
as they would hardly rise over the horizon.


Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 03:56:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:52:40 +0200
Subject: "H" versus "D"
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Stolfi wrote:

  > My interpretation of this map is that "H" and "D" do
  > seem equivalent: whenever the occurrences of one are
  > clustered, those of the other are clustered too,
  > roughly in the same place.

  > What do you say?

  D'Imperio argued against it because the form is
  always written clearly. She saw no intermediate forms
  which would occur if these are really one and the
  same character. I can testify that these intermediate
  forms do occur, however. There are not many though.

  One possible explanation would be a Francis Bacon
  type of cipher. The only thing that matters is
  whether the character is P or F (Currier).
  The same with 4O vs O, M vs N, L vs R, S vs Z,  C vs CC
  etc etc. Of course this doesn't make much sense.
  The Fr.B. cipher is intended to hide a seconds message
  in a plain readable text, such that one would not expect
  a code message.
  But this argument is not sufficient (IMHO)to reject the
  possibility of such a cipher. Nor is the fact that
  Fr.Bacon lived a century 'too late'.

  Note that in Herbal-A and herbal-B the frequency
  distribution of these characters is rather different too.

  Also, be very careful with the FSG transcription of the
  biological section. It isn't as bad as the recipes (stars)
  section, but still it has some consistent errors.

  Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 07:02:08 1997
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 Denis wrote:

 > Does anyone on the list work at the EEC in
> Brussels ?

 Not quite, but this place is a bit similar.
 Unfortunately, most people here are computer
 scientists and their linguistic knowledge
 (especially concerning the middle ages) is
 likely to be modest. I would not know the
 middle-Dutch names for any of the suggested
 items, but Mars and Abril are very unlikely.
 The Web is still a good place to search.

 As for the source of the 'French connection' I
 think Toresella mentions this, but he may not be
 the originaly source.

 I followed Stolfi's lead and did an Alta Vista
 search for Yony (is that the correct transcription
 for the month in Gemini??). I think this is
 a first name in Portuguese.. I found nothing of
 interest. (There was one link in Polish or Czech but it
 did not contain the word yony anymore).

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 11:14:07 1997
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Subject: Re: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:04:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <9709201032.AA02591@sun1.bham.ac.uk> from "Gabriel Landini" at Sep 20, 97 11:37:21 am
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> I know very (VERY)  little about astronomy, so forgive my question. 
> Do these groupings only work for a particular location only? I mean, 
> would somebody in northern England see the same thing as somebody 
> else in southern Italy?

In general, yes. Exact configurations involving the Moon would differ
for different longtitudes, since you would see them earlier or later
than the "ideal" moment of closest approach. The faster a given body is
moving with respect to the others, the more difference you would see
between dawn in Paris and dawn in, say, Moscow.

Note that configurations involving Venus or Mercury would be visible only
near dawn or sunset, but those with the Moon, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn could
happen anywhere on the Ecliptic with respect to the Sun's position.

Latitude would affect the visibility of configurations at low declination.
So, a configuration might be down near the horizon in
London, but quite visible from Madrid.

I did not check local visibility for any of the configurations I found so
far. When I get a specialized run going (might be a week or two), I'll
check for visibility from various locations. As a start, I'll use Prague.
Any other suggestions?
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 11:17:10 1997
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Subject: Re: Uranus, Neptune
To: robertjf@iss.nus.sg (robertjf)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <4825651A.0006B897.00@notes.iss.nus.sg> from "robertjf" at Sep 22, 97 09:17:39 am
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> Definitely, *not* an urban legend, however, is
> Newton's reference in Vol I of the Principia to
> "Jupiter, Saturn and other higher planets".  He
> fer sure knew something few others knew.

Once there began to be good observational records of planets, and a good
orbital theory, it became clear that the motions of Jupiter and Saturn were
being perturbed by other massive bodies that hadn't been found yet. Newton
was one of the first (but not the only) scientists to realize this.

> However, to asperge with cold water - I doubt
> the authors of the VMs laid out their diagrams
> with anything like enough accuracy to allow a
> specific date to be identified astronomically,
> not even 1483, the date of foundation of my old
> school. (!)

Agreed. But it'll still be useful to know what interesting configurations
were there during the time the VMs might have been composed, if for no
other reason than confirming that none of them look anything like the
astronomical pages. I would love a solid negative result as much as a solid
positive result. 

Of course, as usual, we're more likely to get a fuzzy result. :)
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 12:47:08 1997
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Reply-To: <@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs:top-down analysis,Zodiac+nulls
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:46:02 +0100
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   Sorry everyone.   I'll repeat the tables with zeros
for nulls.  I'm going to get advice on changing the
font which Internet Mail ( Goes with Internet Explorer)
is not letting me change in 'Format'   It is probably
buried in the system somewhere.  I suspect that
Wordpad holds the clue ( It has a proportional font
which I always change to Courier New - it is clear
that my Mail font is also proportional).   The Mail
uses MIME and has automatic wrap around at 76 
characters.   

Here are the padded out tables.  Lines only have
zeros to the left of the last valid entry

 The other 'o' starters are also given.
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
psc 16 8   1
ar1  10 3   1   1
ar2  12 2 
ta1   6  2   2   0   1
ta2   6  2   0   1  1   1    1
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
gem 8 16  0  0    1   0   0    1
cnc  3  1   2  0   2   0    1    4    1   5   2   1
leo   6 10  1  0   1   0    1    1    0   0   2   0   1
vir    2   7  2  0   2   1    0    1    0   1   4   0   0   1
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
lib    3  9  0  0  0   0    0    0    1   0   7  0    2    0    1    0    1
sco  8 10  1
sgr   3  5  0  0   2  0   0    1     0    0   0   0   1

Totals for PSC,AR1,AR2,TA1,TA2
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      50 17  4  2   2   1    1
Totals for GEM and rest
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      33 58  6  0  8   1    2    8    2    6 15  1   4   1    1     0   1

The 'ot' to 'ok'  ratio is particularly relevant.

The month totals starting 'o' are
25,29,23,26,22,23,21,24,19,12

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 11:23:06 1997
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Subject: Re: Multiple Planetary Conjunctions 1300-1600 (Preliminary list)
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Adams Douglas wrote:
> 
> I did not check local visibility for any of the configurations I found so
> far. When I get a specialized run going (might be a week or two), I'll
> check for visibility from various locations. As a start, I'll use Prague.
> Any other suggestions?

	By all means include Venice, since a lot of our historical info,
especially on the script origin, points to northern Italy.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 22 21:14:11 1997
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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:09:28 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Two things. First, this proposal for generating
the vocabulary of an artificial language:

--- proposal "b" by Rick Morneau ---

Word    :=      Root  { Suffix }

Root    :=      [ C1 V ]  ( S V  |  C C1 V )

Suffix  :=      C C2 V  |  C2 V  ( S V )

{} enclosed item may appear zero or more times
[] enclosed item MUST appear one or more times
() enclosed item is optional
|  logical "or"

C = any consonant (b, c, d, f, g, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, q, s, t, v, x, z)

V = any vowel (a, e, i, o, u)
S = any semi-vowel (w, y)
C1 = any root-marking consonant (h, n, p, d, k, j, s, v, q)
C2 = any suffix-marking consonant (l, m, b, t, g, c, z, f, x)


[I spare you the rest]

Second (from Paul Kenneth Roser <pkroser@CSD.UWM.EDU>):

He's not kidding - the dental stop is released into a voiceless loosely
fricated bilabial trill. As I understand it this seems to be allophonic
with a plain /t/ in Piraha, but phonemic in a neighboring (and soon to
be
extinct) language Oro Win (and Wari AKA Pacaas Novos, can't recall if it
is allophonic or phonemic there though). Ladefoged & Daniel Everett did
a
write up on it in Language sometime last year.

Piraha also has a straightforward voiced bilabial trill that alternates
with a voiced bilabial stop, and a complex double flap that alternates
with a voiced velar stop. The double flap starts with a lateralized
retroflex flap, tongue moves forward, underside hits lower lip
(sublingual-labial) & is drawn back into mouth. My vote for the weirdest
sound in any living language.

----------------------------------------------------------

What do I want to say? I do not know myself. Evidence that
Voynichese could be an artificial language, and counter-evidence
that it could be a natural language. Imagine a Piraha-speaking
Indian transported to Northern Italy in the 1400's, and recording
his language in a distorted Roman alphabet! Piraha, by the way,
has only 7 consonants (seven) and three vowels. But it has tones
(I don't know how many). Consider how, out of those seven
consonants, three have two very different possible pronunciations
each: plain sensible t, b, and k, alternating with those utterly
insane articulations.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 24 23:05:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:53:12 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: "H" versus "D"
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>The difference between the "H" and "D" gallows (in FSG notation;
>"t" and "k" in EVA) is a loop at the top of the leftmost "pole".
>
>One may ask whether this difference is significant.  I have been
>looking into this question, and I can't seem to find any clear
>evidence that the two shapes are different letters.

I am in total agreement with you, and also with Rene's comment about the
existence of intermediate examples of this character being evident in the
Voynich.

Strong made a very clear distinction between these characters, treating all
variations of the gallows characters as separate and individual characters.
However, when I ran a statistical  analysis of his decipherment, three of
the gallows characters charted the same!  An unusual situation, yes?  There
was no 'clear distinction' between the "H", the "D", or the character that
resembles the Kellogg's "G".  (These are my H,K, and G in my transcription).
Furthermore, the gallows characters that represent combinations of the
gallows and picnic table characters all charted within their own separate
grouping exactly the same, even though Strong assigned them different
positions within his alphabets.

I looked into the matter further, and found that variant forms of the "8"
character 'group charted, as well as the variety of the picnic table
characters.  This was just too much coincidence coming from a work that made
clear distinctions between the characters, and one of my major advances came
when I noticed this co-incidence factor and began to modify my formulations
to accomodate this aspect of Voynich calligraphy.  Reduction of the script
certainly clears up a lot of mathematical confusion.

Currier and Friedman had some problems distinguishing the "a" and the "o"
from one another, and I have similar statistical problems with this
distinction.  "a"'s seem to chart one value more or less than the equivalent
"o", and other characters of similar calligraphy also have this problem.
(The "m" and "n" are really frustrating.)

I realize my approach is cryptographic, and therefore at odds somewhat with
the general approach of the group, but having mentioned this problem more
than once to group members without response, it is refreshing now and then
to have someone reach a similar conclusion through other forms of
mathematics than I use in my own research.

Exacting transcription has always been my main axe to grind, and let's not
even talk about the "CC" versus "U" problem we have discussed in the past,
which remains my only unresolved transcriptional problem at this juncture.
(Strong erred in his transcription of this character set at least four times
in his work).   If the cipher is indeed a string cipher as Strong suggested,
each character out of place not only effects my statistics, but your lingual
statistics as well.  When trying to match my transcription to the VSG
transcriptions, I rarely complete the first line of a page before we are
both off track.  I NEVER complete a paragraph congruent.

This may mean little if the Voynich is language, but if it is cipher it
means a great deal.  Below you will find a chart of the character variance I
see when transcriptions differ.  If your transcription has one too many or
one too few characters for example, the variance from real placement are
shown for the next 12 characters in the 'One out' line.  The chart goes up
to 12 characters out of place, which usually can be achieved within two
Voynich paragraphs between comparative transcriptions:

One out     2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3

Two out    4 4 4 0 4 4 4 1 6 0 6 1

Three out  6 6 2 2 6 6 1 4 3 3 4 1

Four out   8 4 0 4 8 3 2 1 0 1 2 3

Five out   6 2 2 6 5 0 1 2 2 1 0 5

Six out    4 0 4 3 2 3 4 0 4 3 2 3

Seven out  2 2 1 0 5 6 2 2 6 5 0 1

Eight out  0 1 2 3 8 4 0 4 8 3 2 1

Nine out   3 4 1 6 6 2 2 6 6 1 4 3

Ten out    6 1 4 4 4 0 4 4 4 1 6 0

Eleven out 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3

The above chart may mean little to the linguistically inclined, but to the
cryptologician it is a guidepost for finding the direction home.  But what
of the question of multiple individual characters charting the same?

There can be many purposes for this phenomenon, and each has its own
validity.  My two favorite to consider are:

1.  To confuse a simple cipher to the point where it becomes unreadable.

2.  To act as a signal to do something different within a complex cipher.

I actually tend to believe that both are valid arguments.


Regards,   Rayman


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Sep 24 21:35:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:25:39 -0700
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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I have been too deep in the Easter Island tablets
lately to do anything about the VMS. In the process,
I discovered an obscure French outfit that calls
itself "Cercle d'etudes sur l'ile de Paques et la
Polynesie", and is making available, without any
strings attached, the whole corpus of the Easter
Island inscriptions. I quote them verbatim typos
included:

"The last version of computer material are distributed
to our members and to people outside the society asking
for it. Files are available for following topics:

- full description of the Enhanced Barthel System
- catalogue with code and images of the different graphems
- E.B.S. encoding of the full corpus
- elementary statistics on the full corpus
- several results of multi-variate analysis

Analysis on a selected corpus or on restricted features
of a corpus are performed on specific request.

We favor exchanges and dissemination of this information.
No copyright or other protection are so far placed on
our computer data, images and programs."

Conclusion (for those who understand froggish):

Aux chiottes Yale!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Sep 26 12:41:09 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Zodiac notes and f58r
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:39:40 +0100
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>From Denis Mardle

Anyone using 'Reply to Author' should now find my e-mail
address in full  Denis.V.Mardle@BTInternet.com

 Following up my Zodiac+nulls I have gone back over past
notes and have added or commented as follows

 f58r.    Rene Zandbergen commented on 
11 August 1997 at 1550 that f58 is a very interesting pair
of pages.  This was in reply to my comment that f58r had
only okal(EVA Currier OFAE) on its own once out of 22 examples.
I will now list by line and VMs word.
L2 OESOFAE, L11 4OFAEAJ, L12 OFAE92, L14 OFAEAE,
L18 OFAE, L19 4OFAE89 and OFAEAE, L23 4OFAE,
L28 OFAEO89, L30 4OFAEOR, L31 OFAEOR and 4OFAE,
L32 4OFAE89 and 4OFAEO2 and 4OFAE9, L33 ZOFAEOE
and 4OFAE9, L35 ZOFAE, L37 OFAE9, L38 4OFAE9,
L40 SOFAE and OFAE2.

Zodiac.
 I can now add the initial symbols for labels by month in
addition to the 'o' starters I gave earlier, namely
O  25,29,23,26,22,23,21,24,19,16(not 12)
9    2,  0, 1,  0, 6,  0, 3, 4, 3, 9
S   1, 1, 4, 1, 0, 3, 4, 1, 4, 0
A   0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1, 1, 0
Z   0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1
8   1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0
2   1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
E   0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
F   0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0
C   0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 3 
4   0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1
Rene wrote on 15th August 1997

<                               There are some indications for
<and against the 'fair copy' theory in the other sections.
<Perhaps we may even differentiate between the first
<few pages (Pisces to the Tauri) and the later pages
<(Gemini and ff.) The first group are drawn and written
<with more attention. These are also the ones with the
<cans (the transition being in Taurus-2 (dark). Perhaps
<the later figures give originals and the earlier ones
<are fair copies, with additional embellishments...

This fits in with my

Totals for PSC,AR1,AR2,TA1,TA2
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      50 17  4  2   2   1    1
Totals for GEM and rest
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      33 58  6  0  8   1    2    8    2    6 15  1   4   1    1     0   1

The 'ot' to 'ok'  ratio is particularly relevant.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Sep 27 07:38:07 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Zodiac notes and f58r and SGR
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:39:00 +0100
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A correction

Totals for PSC,AR1,AR2,TA1,TA2
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      50 17  4  2   2   1    1
Totals for GEM and rest
      ot ok op oa of osh och or octh ol oe os od ockh oiin ocfh oy
      34 60  6  0  8   1    2    8    2    6 15  1   4   1    1     0   1
The missing 4 on SGR were ot 1  ok 2  and a new oia 1

The 'ot' to 'ok'  ratio is (still ! )particularly relevant

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 29 09:56:12 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs Levitov
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:56:16 +0100
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>From Denis Mardle

In my web searches I came across a site which may be
known to some of you, but I haven't seen it in my e-mail
or bibliographies.   It is
  http://einstein.et.tudelft.nl/~arlet/puzzles/

and then go to cryptology.   There are several notes on 
the Voynich Ms but I found Arlet's commentary on
Levitov's alleged decipherment very interesting.  I
hadn't realised it was based on an old form of Dutch
( ? not known to anyone else ? ) with few consonants
and vowels with several pronounciations.   I don't know
how Arlet's ideas overlap with other assessments.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Sep 29 12:44:09 1997
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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:41:48 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Denis Mardle wrote:
> 
> In my web searches I came across a site which may be
> known to some of you, but I haven't seen it in my e-mail
> or bibliographies.   It is
>   http://einstein.et.tudelft.nl/~arlet/puzzles/
> 
> and then go to cryptology.   There are several notes on
> the Voynich Ms but I found Arlet's commentary on
> Levitov's alleged decipherment very interesting.  I
> hadn't realised it was based on an old form of Dutch
> ( ? not known to anyone else ? ) with few consonants
> and vowels with several pronounciations.   I don't know
> how Arlet's ideas overlap with other assessments.

    I hadn't seen this site before.  Most of the material he has on 
Levitov's medieval pidgin Dutch is actually from Jacques Guy's 
critique of Levitov.  He doesn't give Jacques credit.  The full text 
of Jacques' critique is at: 

http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/rand/levitov

    Neither Jacques nor I accept Levitov's solution. 

-------------------------------

    I've posted material on historic Catharism that contradicts 
Levitov's decipherment.  Some valid historical records of Catharism 
survive.  Also, some authentic Cathar writings survive.  Online, look 
at: 

http://home.sn.no/home/noetic/cathtx.htm

     The Apparelhamentum, confession of sins.
     Traditio, immersion into the community of parfaits.


    The Apparelhamentum and Traditio are from the Cathar Ritual of 
Lyon that Terence McKenna mentioned in his Levitov review.  (These 
particular texts come from *The Treasure of Montsegur* by Birks and 
Gilbert.)  

    You can find *Heresies of the High Middle Ages* by Wakefield and 
Evans at any good university library.  This sourcebook has extensive 
excerpts of the Lyon Ritual and several other Cathar writings.  All 
these make it clear that Catharism was a form of Christianity and not 
Levitov's Isis worship at all.  
    
    Catharism was a variant form of Christianity.  It was a 
thoroughgoing Manichaeism, rigorously equating matter with evil and 
spirit with good.  The full practitioners of Catharism [the perfects 
(parfaits, Perfecti), goodmen (bonshommes), or Good Christians] 
abstained from sex, followed a vegetarian diet, fasted frequently, and 
lived a very monastic discipline.  The mass of simple adherents who 
lived ordinary lives were called believers (croyants, credentes).   
    
    The chief Cathar sacrament was the *consolamentum*, the baptism 
with the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands by a perfect.  This gave 
forgiveness of sins, but such forgiveness was a one-time thing.  After 
the consolamentum, one was expected to live a sin-free life, like the 
perfects.  Because of this, the simple believers postponed the 
consolamentum until their deathbed.  (At times there was a similar 
situation in the early mainstream Christian church, where people would 
postpone baptism until their deathbed.) 
    
    Very late in the history of Catharism, after 1300, those who had 
received the consolamentum on their deathbeds were expected to fast 
until death.  This terminal fast was the *endura*.  It was never 
conceived as a ritual suicide.   Thus it bore no relation to Levitov's 
ritual euthanasia.   

    I inquired about the Cathar *endura* at: 

Centre d'Etudes Cathares (Center of Cathar Studies) 

http://newescape.fr/Culture/History/Cathares/Ce.Cathares.html 
 
------------------------------------------------------------

Centre d'Etudes Cathares 
Nicolas Gouzy, Directeur 

Dear Sir, 

    I participate in an E-mail list in which we are discussing the 
Cathar Endura.  According to Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie in *Montaillou*, 
it was a terminal fast by a dying person after receiving the 
consolation [*consolamentum*]. 

    However, some have said that this practice belonged only to very 
late Catharism, specifically to the Catharism preached by the Authie' 
brothers at Montaillou and the surrounding area.  They said the Endura 
was not part of classic Catharism.  One could receive the consolation 
and then continue to live almost normally. 

    Could you enlighten us? 

------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:47:03 +0100 
From: William Lafarge <Lafarge@idefix.newescape.fr> 
Subject: Re: Endura cathare 

Hello.  On the subject of the endura: 

    It is not possible to make the claim that someone who received the 
consolation was bound to suicide by starvation.  It is true that this 
thesis still prevails among numerous "esotericist" authors and poorly 
informed historians. 

    There is no trace of ritual suicide or ritual murder in the 
Catholic authors of violently anti-heretical notices or treatises, 
like those of Vaux de Cernay, Alain de Lille, Moneta de Cremone...  
They would not have missed using this argument if it had been true. 
Neither is ritual suicide attested by the Southern [French] 
inquisition. 

    One must await the first decade of the XIV century to see the 
endura appear, very precisely defined as a ritual fast associated with 
a *consolamentum* in extremis or given in precarious situations, 
around twenty cases for the period 1300-1320.  It was only, and you 
are right to mention it, the last Cathar perfecti, the most poorly 
initiated, who actually tried to propose an expiatory fast to someone 
newly consoled. But not the Authie' brothers. 

    In summation:  it is not known with certainty whether the endura 
was an ordinary religious practice or not, but it is known that it was 
not an institution, and that never, emphatically never, did the Good 
Christians [perfecti] advise a ritual suicide! 

    I can send you some photocopies for further information... give me 
your address.  Can you advise the other participants of your mini-
forum on the endura to come visit our site, if they want to? 

Regards, 

Nicolas Gouzy 
    
---------------------------------------------------------------
    
    In *Montaillou* by Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie, there is a vivid 
eyewitness account of an *endura*. Brune Pourcel of Montaillou gave 
this testimony to Fournier's Inquisition.  "Fifteen or seventeen years 
ago, said Brune Pourcel (i.388), one dusk, at Easter, Guillaume Belot, 
Raymond Benet (the son of Guillaume Benet)  and Rixende Julia, of 
Montaillou, brought Na Roqua to my house in a *bourras* [a rough piece 
of canvas]; she was gravely ill and had just been hereticated.  And 
they said to me: 'Do not give her anything to eat or drink.  You 
mustn't!' " 

     "That night, together with Rixende Julia and Alazai"s Pellissier,
I sat up with Na Roqua.  We kept on saying to her, 'Speak to us!  Say
something!' "

     "But she would not open her lips.  I wanted to give her some
broth made of salt pork, but we could not get her to open her mouth.
When we tried to do so in order to give her something to drink, she
clenched her lips.  She remained like this for two days and two
nights.  The third night, at dawn, she died. While she was dying, two
night birds commonly called *gavecas* [owls] came on to the roof of my
house.  They hooted and when I heard them I said: 'The devils have
come to carry off the late Na Roqua's soul!' " (p. 226)

     There is no resemblance here to Levitov's claim that Catharism
was the antique cult of Isis - and certainly no truth to the picture
of the Voynich nymphs' opening their veins to bleed to death in the
hot tubs!

---------------------------

Cheers, 
Dennis S.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 30 02:35:07 1997
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Hi!

    > I hadn't seen this site before.  Most of the material he
    > has on Levitov's medieval pidgin Dutch is actually from
    > Jacques Guy's critique of Levitov.  He doesn't give
    > Jacques credit.

    This was written by Jacques. His full article evolved
    from it. This is very old stuff. I think Jacques wasn't
    even called Frogguy then.

    Cheers,  Rene

    PS Dennis: could you indicate where on f85r2 you have seen
    the mysterious object held by several biological nymphs?

    Thanks.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 30 11:47:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:31:15 +0000
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On 30 Sep 97 at 7:18, Dennis wrote:

> rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> >     PS Dennis: could you indicate where on f85r2 you have seen
> >     the mysterious object held by several biological nymphs?
> 	I don't have my copies with me, but IIRC it's in the outermost circle,
> at the left.  In f85r2 the object is cylindrical, while in the other
> image I saw it was pear-shaped.  In both cases, though, it has the row
> of holes along the side.

I haven't got my copyflo here either, but that sounds to me like the 
"yellow submarine" :-) I mentioned some time ago.
Is it a spindle shape, with holes on its side, and ending with some 
sort of flower shaped structure?

I've seen this object twice (and so did Petersen).
I really do wonder what it is.

cheers,
Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 30 08:20:07 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
>     PS Dennis: could you indicate where on f85r2 you have seen
>     the mysterious object held by several biological nymphs?

	I don't have my copies with me, but IIRC it's in the outermost circle,
at the left.  In f85r2 the object is cylindrical, while in the other
image I saw it was pear-shaped.  In both cases, though, it has the row
of holes along the side.

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 30 17:20:09 1997
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Yes, Virginia, Bacon wrote Shakespeare!

What's Shaken' Bacon? Site:
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~paul/

	... and yes, he does discuss Friedman's *The Shakespearean Ciphers
Examined*.

	However, in
Cypher Cyme
Sonnets Cryptogram: Context and Proof
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~paul/acrocipher.html

   'Simeone de Crema's work at Mantua in 1401 used a key (shown below)
in which "each of the plaintext vowels [had] several possible
equivalents. This testifies silently that, by this time, the West knew
cryptanalysis. There can be no other explanation for the appearance of
these multiple substitutes, or homophones. [...] That the homophones
were applied to vowels, and not just indiscriminately, indicates a
knowledge of at least the outlines of frequency analysis" (107). This
type of cryptanalysis, which compares the relative frequency of letters
in ciphertext to that generally found in regular text, allows the
cryptanalist to make good guesses about letter substitution and can
quickly
lead to the solution of simple monoalphabetic ciphers, such as a Caesar
cipher.'

http://fly.hiwaay.net/~paul/gifs/cremakey.gif

	The p. 107 reference is to Kahn.  The cipher alphabet here uses numbers
as characters, somewhat like Voynichese.  The style really doesn't look
the same, though.  

	A lot of Baconiana and Elizabethiana here.  I'm much less familiar with
this than other list members, so I find it interesting.  

FW Amusement,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Sep 30 16:53:11 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>     This is very old stuff. I think Jacques wasn't
>     even called Frogguy then.

Now I remember. I had started a correspondance with
Michael Barlow, who had written a non-critical 
review of Levitov, and I had signed one letter
"Frogguy". To which he had answered something 
like "am I seeing right? Frogguy?". It *is* old
stuff.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct  1 11:02:11 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs f104v,f105r,f108v
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:41:34 +0100
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 From Denis Mardle

The so-called Recipes section of the VMs from f103r is often
thought of as one long area possibly with groups of 
paragraphs and with somewhat different features in different
parts.  I would like to draw attention to one feature that
suggests we may have a partially page dependent feature.

 In the last lines of f104v, f105r and f108v there are four VMs
'words'  separated from the rest of the text on the page in
question.       In Currier they are  
 f104v   OFCCC9  4OFCCC9  OFCC9  OFCC9
 f105r   OPAIIR  SC8AIID  OPAIR  OPAE9 
 f108v   OESAR  OESC89  EZ9  OPC89 

The words themselves, despite the small sample, appear to
have greater affinities within line than between lines.

Any Ideas ?  

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct  1 10:02:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 08:57:06 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> On 30 Sep 97 at 7:18, Dennis wrote:
> 
> > rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> > >     PS Dennis: could you indicate where on f85r2 you have seen
> > >     the mysterious object held by several biological nymphs?
> 
> I haven't got my copyflo here either, but that sounds to me like the
> "yellow submarine" :-) I mentioned some time ago.
> Is it a spindle shape, with holes on its side, and ending with some
> sort of flower shaped structure?
> 
> I've seen this object twice (and so did Petersen).

	I looked at my copies.  I think the "yellow submarine" is the thing
held by nymphs on f76v, f80v, and f82r.  To me this looks very much like
a plant bulb of some kind.  The odd thing is the longitudinal line of
dots or holes.  

	The thing at the leftmost side of the outermost text ring of f85r2 is
*not* the same thing.  It looks sort of like a cylinder with a serrated
slot down the middle, but it may have two completely separate sides.  I
have no idea what it is.  There is a rather similar symbol in the
leftmost side of the outermost text ring of f86v4 as well, altho it's
somewhat different.  

	Levitov said that the "serrated cylinder" of f85r2 and the "yellow
submarine" held by the nymph in f80v were both the sistrum of Isis.  He
thought that because both the line of holes on the "yellow submarine"
and the serrations on the cylinder reminded him of the line of rods on
the sistrum.  I think he was wrong about all this -- as he was about
most things.  :-)

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct  1 16:59:16 1997
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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 16:53:22 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Denis Mardle wrote:

>  From Denis Mardle
>
>  In the last lines of f104v, f105r and f108v there are four VMs
> 'words'  separated from the rest of the text on the page in
> question.       In Currier they are
>  f104v   OFCCC9  4OFCCC9  OFCC9  OFCC9
>  f105r   OPAIIR  SC8AIID  OPAIR  OPAE9
>  f108v   OESAR  OESC89  EZ9  OPC89

> The words themselves, despite the small sample, appear to

> have greater affinities within line than between lines.
>
> Any Ideas ?
>

        IMHO  this occurs throughout the manuscript starting at page 1.
I like to treat any last line of a paragraph that is preceded by white
space as a title for the preceding paragraph.  You can findsimilar
'Titles' on page 8, 9, 16 (1st para), 18, 19, 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, 31,
39, 40, 42....
                        John.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct  2 03:23:07 1997
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From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:01:38 +0200
Subject: Re: VMs f104v,f105r,f108v
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Denis wrote:


>  In the last lines of f104v, f105r and f108v there are four VMs
> 'words'  separated from the rest of the text on the page in
> question.

Have another look at f105r, if you will.
You may well have seen it before but there are another
few 'extra' words written between the lines, near the top
of one of the earlier paragraphs (3rd or 4th or so).
I find it hard to judge in which order they were written.

Anyway, the whole page gives me this funny feeling as
if it was written as follows:
First, for all lines, the first few words were written.
Then, all lines are filled to the right margin.

I don't know how this can be proved though!

There's more.

You may remember the 'telling' word 4OFCC9 (EVA qokeey),
which is very frequent on half the recipes pages, and
infrequent on the other half. The 12 pages with frequent
qokeey are all on the same three bifolia, except, this
is not exactly true. There is at least one page where
all paragraphs except the last (one or two) have hardly
any 'qokeey' and the last one has got it all over.
This IMHO is in favour of a subject-matter reason for
the distribution of this word, rather than 'scribe style'
or 'scribe age'.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct  2 12:32:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:26:55 -0700
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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An Associated Press article discusses "The City of Light" by Jacob
d'Ancona, an Italian merchant's account of his travels through China,
Syria, the Persian Gulf and India from 1270 to 1273 - four year before
Marco Polo!  However, only David Selbourne, the translator and editor,
has seen the original manuscript, to keep the Ms owners' identities
secret. 

	For some reason, the article goes on to recall the diaries of Hitler
and Jack the Ripper, subsequently exposed as forgeries...

	Because of some stubborn peoples' doubts, Little, Brown, and Co. are
postponing publication in the USA, but the book will be published in the
UK next month.  Gadzooks!!! For once, a book banned in the USA but not
the UK!!!

	ObVMs:  Our members in the UK should have a look at the book to see
whether d'Ancona brought back any Chinese or Mongolians from his
travels...

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct  3 07:38:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:13:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: Strange Object
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Status: OR

On  1 Oct 97 at 8:57, Dennis wrote:
> 	I looked at my copies.  I think the "yellow submarine" is the thing
> held by nymphs on f76v, f80v, and f82r.  To me this looks very much like
> a plant bulb of some kind.  The odd thing is the longitudinal line of
> dots or holes.  
> 	The thing at the leftmost side of the outermost text ring of f85r2 is
> *not* the same thing.  It looks sort of like a cylinder with a serrated
> slot down the middle, but it may have two completely separate sides.  I
> have no idea what it is.  There is a rather similar symbol in the
> leftmost side of the outermost text ring of f86v4 as well, altho it's
> somewhat different.  

I took a look and I believe that this "object" is only the separator 
or "start" mark for the text within the circle.
These marks appear in almost all circles, although not in the 
"serrated hole" version. Could this be only a ornamental mark?

Cheers,
Gabriel 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Oct  4 12:56:08 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: VMs f104v,f105r,f108v
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:48:28 +0100
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       From Denis Mardle

Rene wrote:

>Have another look at f105r, if you will.
>You may well have seen it before but there are another
>few 'extra' words written between the lines, near the top
>of one of the earlier paragraphs (3rd or 4th or so).
>I find it hard to judge in which order they were written.

  I've had another look at f105r.    There are four words
between paragraphs 2 and 3 but the first line of para 3
is written first. The four words are put in between tallish
Gallows symbols.   The words, in Currier, are
2AIR9  ORC  8(AI)ID89  9PAJ

I agree this is an odd page.   The top three paras look
to have thicker characters than the later ones.
Fresh ink ? Or a different writing implement ?

f105r also has the only first symbol with the extra curls
( see f57v ) on the recipes pages and has the least number
of paragraphs ( ten ).  The tails on the first five stars are
also the longest.   The number of lines per para are
5, 4( + 1 noted above), 3, 3, 7, 2, 2, 3, 4, 2  plus the
end line of four words.

It is just possible that 2AIR9 etc. are the continuation of the
first line of para 3.  This would be most unusual.

Denis
  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Oct  4 16:41:03 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@paw.montana.com>
To: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: VMs f104v,f105r,f108v
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 14:42:30 -0600
Encoding: 8 TEXT
Status: OR


I agree this is an odd page.   The top three paras look
to have thicker characters than the later ones.
Fresh ink ? Or a different writing implement ?

Hello all:  Could the medievalists tell me what the writing instruments of the periods suspected for the origins of VM are? Inks?
Best to all,
Don

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Oct  5 13:56:09 1997
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Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 13:50:59 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> Stolfi wrote:
>
>   > My interpretation of this map is that "H" and "D" do
>   > seem equivalent: whenever the occurrences of one are
>   > clustered, those of the other are clustered too,
>   > roughly in the same place.
>
>   > What do you say?

        I was all set to point out that the distinction was very clear -
always.... however, reality set in.
I'll refer to page 57v where the 17 characters repeat themselves. At
first glance one can see that the 7th and 11th characters in the stream
remain completely distinct from one another - The D and H gallows in FSG
in all four repetitions.  However, if you look at the 9th character,
which is the F gallows in the first two repetitions, but the P gallows
in the last two repetitions, you'll see the distinction is no longer
obvious.

        However, I'm not entirely convinced that the characters aren't
distinct... just that it isn't so clear that they are.  In almost any
given line in the MS you will see very clearly written gallows of both
types. I think that the similarities in their usage may only mean that
they are characters that are very similar to each other -- say D and T,
B and P, Z and S -- with specific spelling or pronounciation rules that
govern when you would use a Z or S.  Take the French S for example -
when it is between two vowels, it is pronounced Z (although, it is
always written as an S in French isn't the point). Well, I guess in my
attacks on the VMs, I'll keep them as separate (but related) characters
for now.

        And a question regarding the calendar pages again...

                    June, November, and December (if that's what they
represent) have nymphs outside the circular norm for the rest of the
calendar.  In the June and December pages, the first nymph outside the
circle has a 'carpet' under her feet.  If you read the calendar from the
inside out (as I have had a tendancy to do), these two nymphs occur 5
(for June) and 4 (for December) -- days? -- before the end of the zodiac
month.  I'm stretching my imagination to make these represent the Summer
and Winter solstices, only they would occur at the end of the Zodiac
month wouldn't they?
(In that case, I suppose I could go counter clockwise and have both
these characters represent the final day).  This sounds too much like
someone trying to manipulate the work to match the theory, doesn't it?

                                            John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Oct  6 17:05:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:55:38 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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I snipped the following from:
http://www.dlib.org/dlib/july97/vatican/07gladney.html

Yale University Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library (BRBL)

IBM work for and with the Yale Beinecke (BRBL) collection began about a
year ago. BRBL
intends to use digital library technology to extend its support for
scholarly and classroom use by
making it easier and less expensive for patrons to obtain reproductions.
BRBL intends world-wide
access eventually, but is limiting use to the Yale campus during its
first year of digital services, partly
to give itself time to understand intellectual property issues.

The initial focus for digitization has been about 15,000 black and white
photonegatives, 80 papyri (in
color), and a handful of color transparencies. The photonegatives
represent the entire range of
BRBL material--pre-1600s illuminated manuscripts, Western American
photographs, modern
manuscripts, and papyrus. 2000 photonegatives are of Western America.
The rest represent a
working collection created as patrons requested copies of material over
the course of the last 15
years or so. Each patron received a print and BRBL kept the negative.

The intellectual property rights management concerns are similar to
those of the Vatican, e.g.,
preventing the re-use of images in popular art, with additional
consequences of the fact that part of
the collection is subject to copyrights held by individuals outside
Yale. That is, BRBL is concerned
to maintain and enhance its good name and to maintain the possibility of
cost recovery by fee
services. The only protections (beyond the usual physical ones) BRBL is
using are watermarking
and, for the first year of service, limiting Internet access to
on-campus workstations identified solely
by IP address checking.

BRBL has not yet decided whether or not watermark usage will be
continued indefinitely. It sensed
that it would be easier to start by watermarking all Internet-accessible
copies and possibly later
providing unmarked copies than to start with clear copies and possibly
later impose marking. The
BRBL team feels that marking does not reduce the usefulness of text
images, but that whether it
interferes with some applications of some photographs is yet to be
determined.

PS. I've also E-mailed a Sheri Weaver (supposedly someone directly
involved with the digitization project) at Yale questioning whether or
not there are any plans to make a colour copy of MS408 available
on-line.                             John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct  7 04:47:07 1997
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    > For instance I am looking at the Currier B,V,W and Y ( up to
    > f66v so far ) by first line of paragraphs ( less the first
    > symbold  ) against all the other lines.  So far
    >
    > First   B - 202   V - 109   W - 48   Y - 18 
    > Rest    B -  45   V -  28   W - 47   Y - 13
    
How do you identify the paragraphs?  

I hope you are not relying on the "=" marks in Landini's 
preliminary compilation (interln16.evt).  I suspect that 
not all paragraph breaks are recored there.

Two obvious signs are short lines and extra-wide interlinear spaces.
But sometimes we see one of these without the other, so there may be
paragraph breaks where both are missing.

I suspect that the Currier B/V/W/Y gallows are used almost exclusively
in the first line of a paragraph.  Apparent exceptions may well be
paragraph breaks that happen to lack the above features.

I think I see one example on page f77v (whose image I got from
the net).  About midway through the page, on level with the 
feet of the left lady, there are two lines 

  <f77v.15;C> 8AM.2AE.TC8G.4ODC8G.4ODAE.SC8DCOEG-
  <f77v.16;C> 4ODAE.2AE.TC8G.SC4.FTOR.4OHA2OEDG.8ARORG-

(This is in the FSG encoding, from interln16.evt.) 
Note the FSG "F" = Currier "V" on the second line.
In fact, the previous line does seem to fall short of the 
"margin".  

Six lines further down the page there is another Currier "V",

  <f77v.21;C> 8A%NOE.SC8G.RTG.SCOR.4ODC8G.4ODG.TDZG.4ODTG.E8OE-
  <f77v.22;C> HSC8G.4ODAN.TC8AE.FTC8G.TCDG.2AN.TC8G.4ODAN.OE-
  <f77v.23;C> GTC8G.4ODC8G.4ODC8.OESCOR.OET8G-

but I admit that a paragraph break here seems rather unlikely.

I think I see another unrecorded paragraph break in page f79v,

  <f79v.10;C> PTC8G.ESCDZC8G.4ODCCG.4ODAM.OEDG.OPTC8G.PTC8G-
  <f79v.11;C> OETCCG.ETC8G.4OE%DCC8G.4ODAN.TDZG.OHAR.OE%DAK-
  <f79v.12;C> PS8G.OFT8G.4ODC8G.4OHCC8G.4ODC8G.4OE%HC8G.4OHC8G.ODG-

There seems to be extra space between lines 11 and 12.

    > I want to find some significant difference between B and V also
    > between W and Y.  The two sets are clearly different.
    
I agree. My impression, from looking at digraph and line-break
tables, is that Currier W and Y behave a bit like
Currier S, Z, and C with respect to the next symbol.

    > There is also the question " Do B and V replace P and F in first
    > lines? "

Here is the next-symbol probability table for the Biological section,
hand B.  The number in row x and column y is 99 times the probability
of Currier y, given that the previous symbol was Currier x, discarding
all spaces.  Thus similar rows indicate "equivalent" symbols.  A line
break is "/", and "*" is either a transcription error or any symbol
other than the ones listed.

        P  F  B  V  Q  X  W  Y  S  Z  C  2  R  N  M  J  4  A  E  O  8  9  *  / 
       -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
    P | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  7  3 40  .  .  .  .  .  . 30  .  7  . 10  1  .
    F | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  4  1 43  .  .  .  .  .  . 37  1  5  .  8  .  .
       
    B | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 47 13  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  7  . 26  2  4  .  .
    V | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 74  6  3  .  .  .  .  .  .  6  .  9  .  .  .  .
       
    Q | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 25  1  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  4  5 61  .  1
    X | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  . 26  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  1  5 62  .  .
       
    W | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 42  .  .  .  .  .  .  9  .  9 14 24  .  .
    Y | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 50  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 50  .  .  .
       
    S | 1  1  .  .  2  4  1  .  .  . 72  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  1  3  7  4  .  .
    Z | 1  1  .  .  2  4  .  .  .  . 80  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  3  4  3  .  .
    C | 1  2  .  .  1  2  .  .  .  . 22  1  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  4 44 20  .  .
       
    E | 3 13  1  .  .  .  .  . 21 15  1  2  1  .  .  .  4  3  2 16  7  5  .  6
    N | .  .  .  .  1  .  .  . 23 20  1  1  .  .  .  .  4  2  . 33  6  2  .  6
    M | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 26 20  .  2  .  .  .  .  4  1  . 29  6  3  .  7
    R | .  1  .  .  .  .  .  . 14 16  .  .  .  .  .  .  3 16  . 30  2  6  1  7
    2 | 1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  5  5  1  1  .  .  .  .  1 41  1 36  1  3  .  3
       
    J | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  4  4  .  .  . 90
    4 | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 97  .  .  .  .
    A | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 21 25 21  2  .  . 28  .  .  .  2  .
    O |14 36  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  8  .  .  .  .  . 34  .  1  .  .  .
    8 | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  2  1  .  .  .  .  .  1 15  1  4  . 74  .  .
    9 | 3  3  .  .  .  .  .  .  6  5  .  3  3  .  .  . 33  .  8 15  7  1  . 11
    * | .  1  1  .  .  1  .  .  7 12  4  1  1  1  1  .  3 10  3 25  4  5  7 14
    / | 6  1  9  .  .  .  .  .  2  3  . 18  1  .  .  . 26  .  3  8 13  8  .  .

It seems that B and V are qualitatively similar to P and F, but 
numerically distinct.  In fact, B/V resemble the E/M/N/R/2 group
more than the P/F group.

Below are the probabilities going the other way. Entry in row x and
column y is now 99 times the probability of Currier x, given that the
next symbol is Currier y, discarding all spaces.  Thus similar *columns*
indicate "equivalent" symbols.

    
    Previous-symbol probability ( 99):

          P  F  B  V  Q  X  W  Y  S  Z  C  2  R  N  M  J  4  A  E  O  8  9  *  /
         -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
      P | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  4  2  8  .  .  .  .  .  . 13  .  2  .  2  4  .
      F | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  5  3 20  .  .  .  .  .  . 37  .  2  .  4  4  .
      B | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  6  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  1  .  .  .  .
      V | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
      Q | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  .
      X | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  3  .  .
      W | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
      Y | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
      S | 1  1  2  3 25 33 38 50  .  . 24  2  .  .  .  .  .  1  1  1  3  2  2  .
      Z | 1  .  .  . 16 19  .  .  .  . 20  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  1  1  1  .  .
      C | 4  4  7  9 32 34 19  .  1  1 22 12  1  .  .  .  .  3  .  4 69 22 12  .
      2 | .  .  1  .  1  .  .  .  1  2  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  8  .  3  .  .  1  1
      R | .  .  2  .  1  .  5 25  8 13  .  1  .  .  .  .  1  7  .  7  1  1  5  8
      N | .  .  .  .  2  .  9  .  8 10  .  1  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  4  1  .  .  4
      M | .  .  .  .  .  1  . 25  8  8  .  2  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  3  1  .  1  4
      J | .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  6
      4 | .  .  1  6  4  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 41  .  .  .  .
      A | .  .  1  .  .  .  5  .  .  .  .  . 45 97 94 80  .  . 23  .  .  . 36  .
      E | 7 15  8 25  2  .  5  . 34 32  . 11  3  .  .  4  6  3  2  9  6  3  1 18
      O |66 71 34 40  7  7  5  .  1  1  .  2 34  1  5 13  1  . 57  .  1  1 17  1
      8 | .  .  .  3  .  .  .  .  3  4  .  1  .  .  .  .  1 21  1  2  . 54  2  2
      9 |12  6  9  6  7  1  9  . 16 17  . 27 14  .  .  2 75  1 13 14 10  1  8 52
      * | .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  1  .  .  7  2
      / | 6  . 36  6  2  .  5  .  1  2  . 37  .  .  .  . 12  .  1  1  4  2  .  .
 
It seems that B/V are similar to P/F on the left, but different on the
right. Thus they may denote combinations like PE or FE. 

    > similarly W and Y for Q and X.

The tables indicate that W and Y behave more like S/Z/C on the right,
and like Q/X on the left.  So they may well be contractions like QS, QZ,
XS, XZ, as their shape suggests 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct  7 05:56:07 1997
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Subject: Re: Line-initial and line-final statistics
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Stolfi quoted:

    > > For instance I am looking at the Currier B,V,W and Y ( up to
    > > f66v so far ) by first line of paragraphs ( less the first
    > > symbold  ) against all the other lines.  So far
    > >
    > > First   B - 202   V - 109   W - 48   Y - 18
    > > Rest    B -  45   V -  28   W - 47   Y - 13


Hmmm.... when was that message sent? I don't remember
this particular bit.
This is also mentioned by Tiltman I think, who studied
the recipes section, where the above feature is most
consistent. Obviously, B and V cannot be 'normal letters'
for what normal letters occur in the first line of
a paragraph only?

> > There is also the question " Do B and V replace P and
> > F in first lines? "

They are (IMHO) not alternative versions
of P and F to be used in first lines only, since the
frequency of P and F in these first lines seems normal
at first sight.
So what are they?
I am, of course, reminded of the figure from Capelli that
Jim privided, where the gallows occur as ornamental
additions, ont the first (and last) line of the letter
only...

> How do you identify the paragraphs?

> I hope you are not relying on the "=" marks in Landini's
> preliminary compilation (interln16.evt).  I suspect that
> not all paragraph breaks are recored there.

It's not too bad, actually. The lines included in interlin 1.6
which come from voynich.now are slightly better than those
from fsg.new. I remember only a few obvious omissions.
But there are some cases where we simply cannot judge.

> Two obvious signs are short lines and extra-wide
> interlinear spaces. But sometimes we see one of these
> without the other, so there may be paragraph breaks where
> both are missing.

Absolutely. In the stars section, the correlation between
'star figure' and 'the usual indications for start of
paragraph' is quite good but not perfect. Here the 'wide
interlinear spaces' are often not all that wide. And
since some paragraphs will end with a line filled right
up to the right margin, some paragraph splits may only
be suspected to be there, even starting with a normal
character (not B or V).

> It seems that B and V are qualitatively similar to P and F,

The digraph probabilities may be sumarised very coarsely:
after B or V there is most usually an S, or else
one of the tentative 'vowels': 9, A, O.
After P and F one usually has CC or O (very language-
dependent).

If we can obtain any insight into what these B and V
or their pedestalled versions represent, we have a first
'crack' in the writing system. Since it is doubtful
(IMHO) that the voynich symbols are simply 'letters'
together forming words I'd like to know what else they
are....

FWIW, Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct  7 11:56:08 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Line-initial and line-final statistics
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:44:59 +0100
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 From  Denis Mardle
 I am copying the message to the VM List that I sent to
Jorge Stolfi so that you can all see that my work is still
incomplete.
 I have the probability table from Stolfi's reply and I am
pleased that B and V behave differently to P and F in
their next symbols.  I had noticed that S was a very
common follower to B and V.  Note however that any
non-first lines of paragraphs with B and V may have
different statistics.  The same may be true for P and F
in first lines versus P and F in non-first lines.

 I am a bit worried that the post and pre symbol tables
have included the first symbols of paragraphs which I
give in my message below.   Note that B,V,P and F
dominate the count with only 4O coming close to V.
 I had realised that some paragraph starts could be
hidden, but apart from f111 the recipes section shows
that they are a very small minority.  Note that most of
my first lines of paragraphs are taken from the 'hand' A
and B sections of the Ms.   To be on the conservative
side we could always leave out lines with B,V,P or F as
first symbol.  I did NOT include B or V in my counts if 
it was a first symbol of a probable non-first line.   I do
believe that the majority of the 45 B's and 28 V's ARE
on non-first lines.         Counts from the recipes section
should help to settle the question.
  I was working throughout with the copy-flo and my older
BM prints not the interln 1.6 file.

 I agree with Rene that we need to crack the B,V,W,Y story.
One thought ( based on the high count of S after B and V )
is that BS and VS are one thing but W is SB and Y is SV
or, with the weirdo evidence for the base part being like IC
rather than CC since these weirdoes are often preceded
by A ( so that the I goes with the A ).

Now to the message sent at  04 October 1997 13:35

>Jorge - you wrote

>>PPS. As for the VMs, I am presently trying to figure out the 
>>"correct" division into letters and syllabes by looking at 
>>line-initial and line-final statistics.  Things are looking
>>interesting, but I may end up simply re-discovering Robert Forth's 
>>"alphabet" and word-splitting rules...

>I'm pleased you are looking at these statistics again.  I have been
>checking various points recently.   For instance I am looking at the
>Currier B,V,W and Y ( up to f66v so far ) by first line of paragraphs
>( less the first symbol ) against all the other lines.    So far
>First    B - 202   V - 109   W - 48   Y - 18 
>Rest    B -  45   V -  28   W - 47   Y - 13

>  There are also various weirdoes - just under 20, mostly in first lines
>I want to find some significant difference between B and V also
>between W and Y.  The two sets are clearly different.  There is also
>the question " Do B and V replace P and F in first lines ? "
>similarly W and Y for Q and X. 

> I have also counted First symbols of paras up to f102v1  and also
>f103r to f108v with a problem sorting out para starts on f111 which
>appear to be unusual.

>The figures for the count to 102v1 are
>B - 183   V - 17( all hand A )   P - 100   F - 59   4O - 16   2 - 4   
>OF - 4   OB - 3   9 - 3   Z - 2   8 - 2 ( on f99v it is a large one )  
>4F - 1   W - 1   OP - 1  plus the extra ones on f1r paras 2 and 3.

>The second incomplete count is
>B - 85   V - 6   P - 38   F - 11   4O - 8   8 - 4   and one each for
>2AR, 2AI, 2OR, 9B, 9P, 9Z, OE, OR, OS, OF, EP, ZCC and the
>first of f105r ( see f57v ) .

>Plenty to do still !

>Best Wishes         Denis
     
Comments ?   Denis

 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct  7 19:59:07 1997
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    Excellent observation and statistics!  The rare use of BVWY outside
of first line of a paragraph is indeed quite evident.  Also worthy of
note (I think) is that they are extremely rare in the 'Titles' -- only
page 40v and 85v have 'Titles' that include a B&V (page 40) and a B
(page 85).  All the other 'Titles' use PF.  However they do appear in
labels and in the circular text around the calendar pages.

        As for wierdo starts to QWXY that commence with an 'I' instead
of a 'C' stroke...
 I think you will find that any time a normally 'C' shaped character is
preceded by an 'I' shaped character - the first portion of the C takes
on the look of an I-- ie..

            All  S, Z, Q,W,X,Y characters will have an initial
'I-stroke' if preceded by A. Thus the probability that I and C are the
same character is possible.

    Theory to explain SZQWXY---?? Bear with me on this... S is a
drifter. It can be positioned in a variety of ways to create unique
clusters-- PSO, QO, and SPO are the same three components being
positioned in different sequences to produce three different
'characters'.  Similarily, KSO, ZO, and SKO. (of which a second form
exists-- the I series character in DNM3 has a C-form equivalent (I'll
assign that $ for now) that forms the characters $S9, Z9, and S$9).  The
final character in a sequence is always one of - 9,8,O,K,$ (The C-form
characters).


 Thoughts?

                                                        John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct  7 23:11:08 1997
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    > [Rene:] [B and V] are (IMHO) not alternative versions
    > of P and F to be used in first lines only, since the
    > frequency of P and F in these first lines seems normal
    > at first sight.

I think this observation only means that the replacement of P/F by B/V
is not absolute: it is either optional (as in Capelli's figure), or
constrained in some way.

In the few images I have, it looks as if some of the B/V characters
were drawn mainly to fill the empty space to the right of the
preceding line.  Possible examples are the second paragraph of f33v,
and the second paragraph of f79v.  But of course those may be mere
coincidences.

However... The last paragraph of f77v begins like this 

  <f77v.23;F> GTC8G.4OHC8G.4ODC8.OESCOR.OET8G=
  <f77v.24;F> HTO.8TG.ESC8G.8AEG.8AE.8SCC8G.PTCOE.EFOE.OE.TCC8G.4OHG-

Line 24 has two B/V letters (P and F in this transcription) that
*almost* fit into the blank part of the preceding line.  Now, suppose
that the VMs is a copy made by someone who couldn't read it.  Perhaps
those BVs *were* space-fillers in the original text, but line 23 got a
bit stretched in the copy...  Hmmm...

    > [Rene:] So what are they?

    > [myself:] It seems that B/V are similar to P/F on the left,
    > but different on the right. Thus they may denote combinations 
    > like PE or FE. 
    
Thinking it over: the combinations PE nd FE are extremely rare (3 and
11 occurrences in 29791 digraphs).  But POE and FOE are more common
(43 and 55 occurrences), almost as much as B and V (195 and 32 in my
sample).

To test this theory, I mapped all occurrences of POE and FOE to
(lowercase) b and v, respectively, and recomputed the next-symbol and
previous-symbol probabilities:

      Next-symbol probability ( 99).  
      Recall that equivalent characters should have similar *rows*.

       P  F  B  V  b  v  Q  X  W  Y  S  Z  C  2  R  N  M  J  4  A  E  O  8  9  *  /
      -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
  P |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  8  3 42  .  .  .  .  .  . 32  .  2  . 11  1  .
  F |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  4  2 44  .  .  .  .  .  . 38  1  2  .  9  .  .

  B |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 47 13  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  7  . 26  2  4  .  .
  V |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 74  6  3  .  .  .  .  .  .  6  .  9  .  .  .  .

  b |  7  9  2  2  .  .  .  .  .  . 20 18  .  .  .  .  .  .  4  .  . 24 13  .  .  .
  v |  .  6  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 32 21  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 24 13  .  .  2

  2 |  1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  5  5  1  1  .  .  .  .  1 41  1 36  1  3  .  3
  R |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 14 16  .  .  .  .  .  .  3 16  . 30  2  6  1  7
  N |  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  . 23 20  1  1  .  .  .  .  4  2  . 33  6  2  .  6
  M |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 26 20  .  2  .  .  .  .  4  1  . 29  6  3  .  7

  E |  3 13  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 21 14  1  2  1  .  .  .  4  3  2 16  7  5  .  6
  O | 14 36  2  .  1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  8  .  1  .  .  . 32  .  1  1  .  .
  A |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 21 25 21  2  .  . 28  .  .  .  2  .

  Q |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 25  1  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  4  5 61  .  1
  X |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  . 26  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  1  5 62  .  .

  W |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 42  .  .  .  .  .  .  9  .  9 14 24  .  .
  Y |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 50  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 50  .  .  .

  S |  .  1  .  .  .  .  2  4  1  .  .  . 72  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  1  3  7  4  .  .
  Z |  .  1  .  .  .  .  2  4  .  .  .  . 80  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  3  4  3  .  .
  C |  1  2  .  .  .  .  1  2  .  .  .  . 22  1  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  4 44 20  .  .

  J |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  4  4  .  .  . 90
  4 |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 97  .  .  .  .
  8 |  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  2  1  .  .  .  .  .  1 15  1  4  . 74  .  .
  9 |  3  3  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  6  5  .  3  3  .  .  . 33  .  8 15  7  1  . 11
  * |  .  1  1  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  7 12  4  1  1  1  1  .  3 10  3 25  4  5  7 14
  / |  5  1  9  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  2  3  . 18  1  .  .  . 26  .  3  8 13  8  .  .
      -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --


    Previous-symbol probability ( 99).
    Recall that equivalent characters should have similar *columns*.

       P  F   B  V   b  v   Q  X  W  Y  S  Z  C  2  R  N  M  J  4  A  E  O  8  9  *  /
      -- --  -- --  -- --  -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
  P |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  4  2  8  .  .  .  .  .  . 13  .  .  .  2  4  .
  F |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  5  3 20  .  .  .  .  .  . 37  .  1  .  4  4  .
  B |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  6  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  1  .  .  .  .
  V |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
  b |  .  .   1  3   .  .   .  .  .  .  1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
  v |  .  .   1  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
  Q |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  2  .  .
  X |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  3  .  .
  W |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
  Y |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
  S |  1  1   2  3   2  .  25 33 38 50  .  . 24  2  .  .  .  .  .  1  1  1  3  2  2  .
  Z |  .  .   .  .   7  .  16 19  .  .  .  . 20  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  1  1  1  .  .
  C |  5  4   7  9   .  .  32 34 19  .  1  1 22 12  1  .  .  .  .  3  .  4 69 22 12  .
  2 |  .  .   1  .   2  .   1  .  .  .  1  2  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  8  .  3  .  .  1  1
  R |  .  .   2  .   .  2   1  .  5 25  8 13  .  1  .  .  .  .  1  7  .  7  1  1  5  8
  N |  .  .   .  .   .  .   2  .  9  .  8 10  .  1  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  4  1  .  .  4
  M |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  1  . 25  8  8  .  2  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  3  1  .  1  4
  J |  .  .   .  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  6
  4 |  .  .   1  6   .  2   4  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 42  .  .  .  .
  A |  .  .   1  .   .  .   .  .  5  .  .  .  .  . 45 97 94 80  .  . 24  .  .  . 36  .
  E |  7 15   7 22   7 11   2  .  5  . 32 30  . 11  3  .  .  4  6  3  2  9  6  3  1 18
  O | 67 71  34 40  48 65   7  7  5  .  1  1  .  2 34  1  5 13  1  . 55  .  1  1 17  1
  8 |  .  .   .  3   .  .   .  .  .  .  3  4  .  1  .  .  .  .  1 21  1  3  . 54  2  2
  9 | 13  5   9  6  11 15   7  1  9  . 16 17  . 27 14  .  .  2 75  1 14 14 10  1  8 52
  * |  .  .   1  .   .  .   .  .  .  .  1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  1  .  .  7  2
  / |  5  .  36  6  22  4   2  .  5  .  1  2  . 37  .  .  .  . 12  .  1  1  4  2  .  .
      -- --  -- --  -- --  -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

What should we conclude? 

I think that the *next*-symbol distributions of b=POE and v=FOE are
somewhat similar to those of B and V, but there are significant
differences.

On the other hand, the *previous*-symbol probabilities of b/v seem
indistinguishable from those of B/V, given the amount of noise present
in the numbers.  Indeed, the left context of POE is more similar to
that of B than to that of other P's; and the same goes for
FOE/V/F-other.

The next-symbol differences between POE and B could perhaps be
explained by context-sensistive replacement rules, e.g. "you may
replace POE by B, except before 8, P, or F".

Such rules could be a natural consequence of syllabe or word splitting
rules. (I am almost convinced by now that the spaces in the VMs are
completely bogus, as Jacques Guy and others have hinted...)

Another possibility is that B may stand for POE8 as well (or instead
of) POE.  That would explain why B is rarely followed by 8, whereas
13% of all POEs are followed by 8.

    > [Rene:] If we can obtain any insight into what these B and V
    > or their pedestalled versions represent, we have a first
    > 'crack' in the writing system.

IMHO, their preference for paragraph-initial lines and line-initial
positions, across all sections of the VMs, is almost proof that B and
V they are ornamented versions of other letters.

Given what we see in other medieval manuscripts (such as Capelli's),
it is quite likely that (1) two or more distinct letters may have
similar or identical ornamented versions; and (2) an ornamented
"letter" may actually be an abbreviation, or a fancy condensed
rendering of two or more letters.

Moreover, if "ignorant scribes" wrote our copy of the VMs, they may
have missed the significant details of the B/V letters, and copied
only the meaningless flourishes.  If I had been given Capelli's letter
to copy, before seeing the transcription, I probably would have missed
the difference between the "l" in Placentia" and the "s" in
"monasterium"...  .

--stolfi





From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 14 18:35:08 1997
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From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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    Has anyone done a detailed statistic set with single character words in
the VMS?  Just a quick glance at several pages shows that the R and 2 are
the most frequent single character words, followed by 9, and 8.  It is
difficult on occasion to ascertain whether some of these characters are in
fact alone so I'm not counting them... The O for example seems to be quite
rare by itself.  The interlinear file shows some gallows as standing by
themselves, but everyone of those that I looked at in the MS are quite
close to the following word. It also appears that on occasion, some
'single' character words may in fact be part of a whole word that is
separated by plant parts.

        Candidates for single character words (I think) are most often
vowels (oops, I'm thinking strictly Romance and Germanic aren't I?).
Russian has single character words like 'k', 's', 'v' (all of which are
prepositions).  Most single character words have grammatical importance. As
pronouns used as the subject of a sentence (ie.. 'I' in English, 'Ya' in
Russian), as conjuctions (ie.. 'i' in Russian for 'and'), or as
prepositions (ie.. a in French > at/in/for/from/by/until < , k in Russian >
towards, s > from, v > in, o > about).

        Comments?
                  John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 14 22:35:08 1997
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    > Has anyone done a detailed statistic set with single character words in
    > the VMS?
    
  Here are the absolute counts and relative frequencies for single-letter
  "words" in the "bio" section (pages 147-166, f75r--f84v), in Currier and
  FSG notations:

    count   freq  Cur  FSG
    -----  -----  ---  ---
       13  0.245   R    R
        9  0.170   2    2
        7  0.132   E    E
        5  0.094   9    G
        5  0.094   O    O
        4  0.075   4    4
        3  0.057   8    8
        2  0.038   *    *
        2  0.038   F    D
        2  0.038   Z    S
        1  0.019   6    6

       53  1.000   total
    
  That's all language B, hand 2.  I am using a "mechanical consensus"
  of the Currier and Friedman transcriptions, derived from Gabriel 
  Landini's interln16.evt file.
  
  However, I must say that I am rather skeptical about the significance
  of inter-word spaces in the VMs.
  
  In particular, the spaces seem to have been inserted according to a
  rather simple set of rules, such as: ``insert a space after "G",
  "K", "L", "M", "N", "R", and before a "4" and "2"''.  (Robert
  Firth apparently reached a similar conclusion).

  If we discard all spaces in the bio section, and re-insert them
  according to this trivial rule, we will correctly reproduce 83% of
  the original spaces, and insert only 12% new ones.  Said another
  way, if we try to predict whether there is a blank between two
  consective non-blank letters, this rule will give the right answer
  94% of the time.

  Incidentally, these scores could be improved to 84%, 9%, and 95%,
  respectively, if we assumed that all 92 "R"s preceded by space are
  actually mis-transcribed "2"s, and all 64 "2"s not preceded by space
  are actually "R"s.  
  
  Moreover, it must be kept in mind that there are many differences in
  word spacing between the Currier and FSG transcriptions; so it is
  possible that the apparent failures of the trivial rule are actually
  transcription errors.

  
  One reason to mistrust the VMs "word" breaks is that the letter
  statistics around line breaks seem fuzzier, and rather different
  from those around word breaks.  For instance, the pairs "G S" and
  "G T" surround 6.2% of the spaces, but only 2.5% of the line
  breaks.  
  
  Conversely, "E G" surrounds 1.6% of all line breaks (12 occurrences
  in 764 breaks), but only 0.3% of all word spaces (20 occurrences in
  5688 spaces).  If line breaks were a random subset of the word breaks,
  the relative frequencies should have been similar.
  

  Also, it seems that most figure labels can be found in the main text, 
  with plausible distributions---but only if we ignore the "word" breaks.

  
  I think we must consider seriously the hypothesis that the VMs
  is a copy made by scribes who did not understand what they were copying.
  There seems to be lots of circumstantial evidence for this thory,
  and none against it.  
  
  In particular, I suspect that inter-word spaces were either missing
  or very indistinct in the original, so the ones we see in the
  Beinecke copy are largely the invention of the "ignorant scribes".
  Note that the contexts described by the trivial rules above seem to
  coincide with natural "light spots" in the writing, due to
  the shape of the letters involved.
  
  Also, I find it suggestive that the letters "6" "G", "M", "N", "L"
  and "R" resemble standard medieval abbreviations for common Latin
  word-endings, whereas "4" resembles the standard abbreviation for
  "et" ("and"). Check for example
  
  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/oresme/vatic-1.html 
  
  I imagine that a scribe who has been copying Latin all his life would
  tend to "see" word breaks around those letters, even if there
  was no extra space there.
  
  If word spacing in the main text is bogus, the figure labels
  may be our main hope to identifying the "true" words of Voynichese.
  
    > As pronouns used as the subject of a
    > sentence (ie.. 'I' in English, 'Ya' in Russian), as conjuctions
    > (ie.. 'i' in Russian for 'and'), or as prepositions (ie.. a in
    > French > at/in/for/from/by/until < , k in Russian > towards, s >
    > from, v > in, o > about).

  The most common words in any natural language are usually single 
  phonemes.  In Italian there there is the single-letter verb "" ("is")
  and also the verb "ha" ("there is"), where the "h" is silent;
  the conjuntions "e", "o" ("and", "or"), the preposition "a",
  the articles "i" and "l".  Portuguese and Spanish are similar.
  French has the "y" (roughly "there"), as in "y a" ("there is").
  
  That is true even in English: with truly phonetic spelling
  "the" would be written as a single letter (""?).  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 15 01:44:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 03:37:16 -0200 (EDT)
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Here are some tantalizing tidbits. I have collected
all the labels transcribed in Landini's inteln16.evt,
and searched for them in the main text. (I had to 
remove all "word" spaces, and collapse some pairs 
similar letters; details later.)

Some "labels" occur hundreds of times in the text;
presumably they are common words or parts thereof
(or became such because of my lossy letter encoding).

So I looked only at the "rare" labels, those that
occur at most 25 times in the text. Here are the 
pages where those labels are mentioned the most often
in the text proper:

  #refs  page   contents
  -----  -----  -----------------------
     25  58r    isolated "starred paragraphs" page
     14  113v   "starred paragraphs" section
     14  115r   "starred paragraphs" section
     13  66r    "three-column table"
     13  113r   "starred paragraphs" section
     10  86v6   back of big fold-out
     10  86v5   back of big fold-out
     10  116r   "starred paragraphs" section

The other pages have less than 10 label occurrences each.

Unfortunately I must leave town for the rest of the week.
Just when things got real interesting...

Best regards to all,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 15 10:23:09 1997
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Dear all,

Stolfi came up with some intersting stats:

> So I looked only at the "rare" labels, those that
> occur at most 25 times in the text. Here are the
> pages where those labels are mentioned the most often
> in the text proper:

  > #refs  page   contents
  > -----  -----  -----------------------
  >   25  58r    isolated "starred paragraphs" page
  >   14  113v   "starred paragraphs" section
  >   14  115r   "starred paragraphs" section
  >   13  66r    "three-column table"
  >   13  113r   "starred paragraphs" section
  >   10  86v6   back of big fold-out
  >   10  86v5   back of big fold-out
  >   10  116r   "starred paragraphs" section

f58r again!! And this confirms the link between f58 and
the stars section, which Petersen clearly favoured, and
for which I had also seen some textual evidence. I think
this was for character sequences (EVA) 'dolch' and
'solch'. Errm... that would be Currier 8OES and 2OES

I would be interested to learn:
1) Which labels are mostly on f58r (zodiacal at a hunch,
   but that would be expected anyway as 300 of the 700
   labels are here)
2) If there is a preference for the top half or bottom
   half of this page, cf Denis Mardle's observations.

Tantalising indeed!

On the one-letter words, I can recommend everyone to
have a(nother) look at two of the graphs Gabriel has
prepared in his Zipf article, on his web pages.
The word length and token length frequencies are compared
with those of known texts in English and Latin.
I would like to compare the Voynichese word lengths
with those of (say) English, with the vowels removed
and then incremented by one. The curves would be
very similar. Only single-vowel words would remain
as one-letter words, so still quite a few. In Latin,
the only ones I can think of right now are 'a' and
'e', which are abbreviations for 'ab' and 'ex' anyway.
That might work...

Some spaces in the Ms are very clear. Others are not.
Often, spaces near one-letter words are not very
clear, but sometimes, too, they are. And then there's
the EVA-l or Currier-E which in some parts of the MS
is almost constantly surrounded by uncertain spaces.
My impression is that the average word length
calculations up to now have resulted a too low number,
because of a tendency to 'see' spaces where there may be
none. I think we have a mixture of 'real' spaces
and 'wider gaps' caused by typical letter shapes.

Stolfi's experiment of removing the spaces and reinserting
them according to fixed rules might work for more
characters than just the space (but probably not as well).

FWIW, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 15 11:38:08 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: labels and one-letter words
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:37:52 +0100
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Rene said
>I would be interested to learn:
>1) Which labels are mostly on f58r (zodiacal at a hunch,
>   but that would be expected anyway as 300 of the 700
>   labels are here)
>2) If there is a preference for the top half or bottom
>   half of this page, cf Denis Mardle's observations.

 My observations were on f57r not the all text f58r.  Note
that f58v is not transcribed and could add some evidence
as it is clearly a continuation of f58r.    It would be useful
to know what is the total symbol and word count of the all
text pages versus that for the rest of the pages.   One
could then redo Stolfi's count and have a simple two by
two table to test.

 On single character words I have the following from a
sample of Ukrainian using lower case ( for ISO-8859-1
ASCII which comes over the internet and noting that
Russian uses bihex values of E0 to FF for a to ya
- this must be the same in the 1251 ( or is it 1252 ? )
universal cyrillic font which also uses the A0 to BF
area for other cyrillic languages ).
Using the nearest Anglised version plus the bihex I
saw 9 single characters.  In frequency order :-
y(u) F3, 34 ;  i (UKR not RUS ) B3, 33  ;   z E7, 31  ;
v(w) E2, 28 ;  a E0, 10  ;  ye (UKR not RUS) BA,  6 ;
j E9,  3 ;  zh E6,  2 ;  o, EE,  1

Denis
   

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 15 10:44:08 1997
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
>   In particular, the spaces seem to have been inserted according to a
>   rather simple set of rules, such as: ``insert a space after "G",
>   "K", "L", "M", "N", "R", and before a "4" and "2"''.  (Robert
>   Firth apparently reached a similar conclusion).

	Here is Robert Firth's paradigm.  

http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/firth/24.txt

	You, of course, have come up with your own paradigm.  The paradigm
predicts the word spaces but also how the paradigm components may
contact each other.  

	My theory has been that the paradigms are elements of a verbose
orthography.  I also wonder, as Robert Firth did, whether they aren't
algorithms for generating gibberish that looks meaningful.  Would
glossalalia look like this?  I don't know, but Voynichese looks too
constructed to me to be glossalalia.  I haven't seen enough glossalalia
to have a real idea.  

>   If we discard all spaces in the bio section, and re-insert them
>   according to this trivial rule, we will correctly reproduce 83% of
>   the original spaces, and insert only 12% new ones.  Said another
>   way, if we try to predict whether there is a blank between two
>   consective non-blank letters, this rule will give the right answer
>   94% of the time.
> 
>   Incidentally, these scores could be improved to 84%, 9%, and 95%,
>   respectively, if we assumed that all 92 "R"s preceded by space are
>   actually mis-transcribed "2"s, and all 64 "2"s not preceded by space
>   are actually "R"s.

>   One reason to mistrust the VMs "word" breaks is that the letter
>   statistics around line breaks seem fuzzier, and rather different
>   from those around word breaks.  For instance, the pairs "G S" and
>   "G T" surround 6.2% of the spaces, but only 2.5% of the line
>   breaks.
> 
>   Conversely, "E G" surrounds 1.6% of all line breaks (12 occurrences
>   in 764 breaks), but only 0.3% of all word spaces (20 occurrences in
>   5688 spaces).  If line breaks were a random subset of the word breaks,
>   the relative frequencies should have been similar.

	Here again, we have Prescott Currier's "line as a functional unit." 
Could the text be poetry?  Robert Firth dwelt on this in his "prosodic
hypothesis."

http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/firth/13.txt

	Just some thoughts.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 15 20:35:08 1997
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
 
 
> Some "labels" occur hundreds of times in the text;
> presumably they are common words or parts thereof
> (or became such because of my lossy letter encoding).

Or... they may be single letters or numerals. The
text would then be something like:

Pound an areca nut (3b) into a fine powder, mix with
the sap of the dandelion (1), ....

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct 16 17:02:08 1997
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>   In particular, the spaces seem to have been inserted according to a
>   rather simple set of rules, such as: ``insert a space after "G",
>   "K", "L", "M", "N", "R", and before a "4" and "2"''.  (Robert
>   Firth apparently reached a similar conclusion).
>

    How does this simple rule explain the primary single characters listed
in your stats?  I also think that 'G' is often found as an initial
character in a word.

>
>
>>     count   freq  Cur  FSG
>>     -----  -----  ---  ---
>>        13  0.245   R    R
>>         9  0.170   2    2
>>         7  0.132   E    E
>>         5  0.094   9    G
>>         5  0.094   O    O
>>         4  0.075   4    4
>>         3  0.057   8    8
>>         2  0.038   *    *
>>         2  0.038   F    D
>>         2  0.038   Z    S
>>         1  0.019   6    6
>
>   Also, it seems that most figure labels can be found in the main text,
>   with plausible distributions---but only if we ignore the "word" breaks.
>
>
>

        Is there really that big of a difference?  I'm sure quite a few of
the labels are found throughout the text when you include word-breaks.
There is also quite possibly variant forms of 'label' words - ie. words
that have the label as a root.

>   I think we must consider seriously the hypothesis that the VMs
>   is a copy made by scribes who did not understand what they were
> copying.
>   There seems to be lots of circumstantial evidence for this thory,
>   and none against it.
>

        I also lean toward the possibility of an ignorant scribe, however
I'm not completely convinced that the word breaks are meaningless.  Now
somewhat connected to this line of conversation (Ie. word breaks) I'd like
to point to the 'c' character to offer yet another theory to explain the
letter 'S'. The letter 'c' almost never appears at the beginning of a
character (I may have to really double check that statement).  In its place
is the S character - possibly signifying a 'c' that commences a syllable.
Thus any commencing with what would be written as C9 turns out as S9, but
amongst a word where the syllable isn't stressed it would be written C9 --
OFC9.  Compare this with OFS9.  Assigning 'o' to "O", 't' to "F", 's' to C
(or S), and 'a' to '9' I would create the word 'otsa' in both cases - but
the 'S' indicates a separate syllable so that OFC9 could be pronounced
ots-a, whereas OFS9 would be pronounced ot-sa.

                                John.

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<HTML>
Jorge Stolfi wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; In particular, the spaces seem to have been
inserted according to a
<BR>&nbsp; rather simple set of rules, such as: ``insert a space after
"G",
<BR>&nbsp; "K", "L", "M", "N", "R", and before a "4" and "2"''.&nbsp; (Robert
<BR>&nbsp; Firth apparently reached a similar conclusion).
<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; How does this simple rule explain the primary single
characters listed in your stats?&nbsp; I also think that 'G' is often found
as an initial character in a word.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; count&nbsp;&nbsp; freq&nbsp; Cur&nbsp;
FSG
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -----&nbsp; -----&nbsp; ---&nbsp; ---
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; 0.245&nbsp;&nbsp; R&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
R
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; 0.170&nbsp;&nbsp;
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; 0.132&nbsp;&nbsp;
E&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; E
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp; 0.094&nbsp;&nbsp;
9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; G
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp; 0.094&nbsp;&nbsp;
O&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; O
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4&nbsp; 0.075&nbsp;&nbsp;
4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; 0.057&nbsp;&nbsp;
8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; 0.038&nbsp;&nbsp;
*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; 0.038&nbsp;&nbsp;
F&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; D
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; 0.038&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; 0.019&nbsp;&nbsp;
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; Also, it seems that most figure labels can
be found in the main text,
<BR>&nbsp; with plausible distributions---but only if we ignore the "word"
breaks.
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is there really that big of
a difference?&nbsp; I'm sure quite a few of the labels are found throughout
the text when you include word-breaks.&nbsp; There is also quite possibly
variant forms of 'label' words - ie. words that have the label as a root.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>

<P>&nbsp; I think we must consider seriously the hypothesis that the VMs
<BR>&nbsp; is a copy made by scribes who did not understand what they were
copying.
<BR>&nbsp; There seems to be lots of circumstantial evidence for this thory,
<BR>&nbsp; and none against it.
<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I also lean toward the possibility
of an ignorant scribe, however I'm not <I>completely</I> convinced that
the word breaks are meaningless.&nbsp; Now somewhat connected to this line
of conversation (Ie. word breaks) I'd like to point to the 'c' character
to offer yet another theory to explain the letter 'S'. The letter 'c' almost
never appears at the beginning of a character (I may have to really double
check that statement).&nbsp; In its place is the S character - possibly
signifying a 'c' that commences a syllable.&nbsp; Thus any commencing with
what would be written as C9 turns out as S9, but amongst a word where the
syllable isn't stressed it would be written C9 -- OFC9.&nbsp; Compare this
with OFS9.&nbsp; Assigning 'o' to "O", 't' to "F", 's' to C (or S), and
'a' to '9' I would create the word 'otsa' in both cases - but the 'S' indicates
a separate syllable so that OFC9 could be pronounced ots-a, whereas OFS9
would be pronounced ot-sa.

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
John.</HTML>

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From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 17 03:44:07 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C1256533.002446BE.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:34:26 +0200
Subject: Ignorant scribe theory
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Status: OR





It is a good theory.
But I am not sure how we can judge the evidence for or against
it. For every indication in favour of it, there is a multitude of
alternative explanations. It is also very hard to come up with
arguments why one might think that the scribe *knew* what he was
writing. I.e. it is easier to find indications for one side than for the
other.

Perhaps it may be helpful to try and imagine a scenario where the
VMs is the product of an ignorant scribe. What would he be
transcribing from? Voynichese or something else he couldn't
understand? The former doesn't make sense, because then
his original would have also been loaded with the same evidence
for being the product of an ignorant scribe.
(Alternative theories welcome!)

So then he turned 'something' into Voynichese. He would have
had to be very fluent in Voynichese (did he invent it or someone else?),
so his problem must have been with the source text.
If someone else invented it, would any part of the VMs written by that
other person? Would he have understood the source text?
What would the source text have to be like in order to be incomprehensible?
Different language? Different script? Illegible handwriting? Oddly
abbreviated but otherwise understandable?
(These are intended to be leading questions for someone to come
up with that bright moment to see how it was all done :-) )

And then there are the drawings. They seem much more like
originals. But if the scribe couldn't read the text, why would he
make a drawing of a flower next to it? So ignorant scribe means
pictures are copies too. Or they have nothing to do with the text.
Or the whole thing is a meaningless fabrication....

Note that the half-related question why there is only this one Ms
in Voynichese and nothing else, may be answered with the possibility
 that there were various pieces, and the VMs is simply the collation
of all extant ones. If we accept the evidence for a late 15C date
and a Dee foliation, it may have been in disorder for some time...

More questions than answers...

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 17 12:38:33 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Weirdo family A
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:34:36 +0100
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>From Denis Mardle.
I have enclosed an attachment - file WeirdoesA.txt
Anyone who has problems with it please refer back to me.
Table 2 which covers the 4 gallows characters plus
their base together with precursors of A,AI or AII
is quite startling.   44 of the 46 entries end with
9,G,y (Currier,FSG,eva).  This is 95.5%

My theory is that these are numbers of the first,
second,third etc type like the folio gathering
numbers which all seem to end 9 - the Latin abbreviation
for -us.  Of course I am not saying they are Latin, or
am I ?   Mary D'Imperio's book does have another table
with 9 at the end of all the words.

Comments ?       Denis
 
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Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="WeirdoesA.txt"

This is file WeirdoesA.txt  created on 16 October 1997  by Denis V =
Mardle.

There are two main families of weirdoes plus various minor ones.    To =
make sure
that no-one misunderstands the table below I give the Voynich words in =
trilingual
form as Currier, FSG and eva.   E.g. for one symbol Z,S,sh  and for a =
word=20
ZW9, SPZG, shcphy.    In addition I will give brackets round weirdoes =
only in the
eva form. E.g. sh has a plume regularly but a plume over an o would be =
put as (o').
 If the right side of an sh is replaced by a y we have (c'y) or if the q =
of qo
has a plume it is (q'o).   Using this last example a weirdo word could =
be 4OE,4OE,
(q'o)l.   The two main families are A) Extra plumes and B) The =
substitution,
addition and subtraction of parts of Z,S,sh ; S,T,ch ; Q,HZ,cth ; =
W,PZ,cph ;
 X,DZ,ckh and Y,FZ,cfh

 This file lists members of the second family and in particular those =
where the
symbols above are preceded by A,A,a  or AI,AI,ai or AII,AII,aii.   The =
result,
found by checking the interln version 1.6 file in FSG form to find the =
examples
of AS, AT, AHZ, APZ, ADZ and AFZ plus similarly with AI or AII for A.  =
AIII does
not seem to give any answers but I did notice on f8r line 15 ( para 3 =
line 2 )
that 8AIIIRS9,8AIIIRTG,daiiir(i'h)y occurs.  =20
 The interesting fact is that virtually all examples quoted have the =
extra I,I,i
replacing the first part in the weirdo.  Several have an extra joined on =
C,C,e
so that cth,cph,ckh,cfh  become (ith),(iph),(ikh),(ifh) and with the =
extra
joined e as (ithh),(iphh),(ikhh),(ifhh)  although I should point out =
that when
the a or ai or aii is NOT present there are numerous examples of the =
single
added weirdoes (cthh),(cphh),(ckhh),(cfhh).

 Note the high frequency of the word ending 9,G,y in the table.
 I also give the location as, for example; f8r,l15,p3,l2 ( see above )
 Comments are in brackets.

 TABLE 1
folio	line	para	line	Voynich word	Comments=20

f58r	16	2	1	9PAZ9,GHASG,yta(i'h)y	(probable)
f105v	35	10	4	FAIZ8,DAIS8,kai(i'h)d	(poss. end line)
f105v	11	3	4	FAIIZ8,DAIIS8,kaii(i'h)d	(good - end line)

f42r	1	1	1	(t/k)a(ih)(ch)y	(eva only odd area ih OK)
f58r	19	2	4	(a/o)chaly	(eva only ch normal 'a'?)
f89r2	4	2	1	BORASOE,PORATOE,pora(ih)ol	(good)
f90r1	5	1	5	OFASC9,ODATCG,okachey	(ch normal'a'top of 'y'?)
f8r	16	3	3	QAISAR,HZAITAR,cthai(ih)ar	(good)
f107r	30	10	1	OBAIS9,OPAITG,opai(ih)y	(good)
f107r	42	13	1	BAIS9,PAITG,pai(ih)y	(possible)
f107v	44	14	2	FAIS,DAIT,kaich	(ch normal  first of line)
f112r	22	5	4	8AIS9,8AITG,daichy	(ch normal  first of line)

TABLE 2
folio	line	para	line	Voynich word	Comments=20
						=20
f40v	11	1	11	AQ9,AHZG,a(ith)y	(good last of line)
f82r	15	2	6	RAQ9,RAHZG,ra(it)y	(good but no h on right)
f82v	29	6	1	AQ9,AHZG,a(ith)y	(good)
f86v5	14	3	3	AQ9,AHZG,a(ith)y	(good last of line)
f89r1	10	3	1	4OAQ9,4OAHZG,qoa(ith)y	(good)
f90v1	7	2	1	PO8AQC9,HO8AHZCG,toda(ith)ey	(good with t-t bridge)
f99r	17	4	5	AQC9,AHZCG,a(?th)ey	(possible ? is a blob)
f101r1 10	2	4	AQ9,AHZG,a(ith)y	(good)
f107r	43	13	2	AQ9,AHZG,a(ith)y	(good)
f107r	49	15	2	RAQP9,RAHZHG,ra(ith)ty	(good)
f108r	16	5	3	2AQ9,2AHZG,sa(ith)y	(good first of line)
f113v	21	7	1	AQAR,AHZAR,a(ith)ar	(good)
f115v	17	5	5	RAQ9,RAHZG,ra(ith)y	(good last of para)
f1r	17	3	7	8AIQ9,8AIHZG,dai(ith)y	(good)
f31r	16	3	end	AIIQ9,AIIHZG,aii(ith)y	(good second word of 'label')
f51r	14	1	14	8AIIQ9,8AIIHZG,saii(ith)y	(good)

f24r	19	1	19	OPAW9,OHAPZG,ota(iph)y	(good end page before 'label')
f44r	1	1	1	ORAW9,ORAPZG,ora(iph)y	(good)
f58v	34	4	1	AWC9,APZCG,a(iph)ey	(good)
f72v2	C1	-	-	SCFAW9,TCDAPZG,chek(iph)y	(good in outer circle)
f88r	6	2	1	FOAW(C)9,DOAPZ(C)G,koa(iphh)y	(good with extra joined h)
f104r	5	2	1	SC8AW9,TC8APZG,cheda(iph)y	(good)
f105v	32	10	1	AW(C)C9,APZ(C)CG,a(iphh)y	(good with extra joined h)
f107r	18	6	1	AW9,APZG,a(iph)y	(good)

f31v	9	2	4	AXC89,ADZC8G,a(ikh)edy	(good)
f34r	9	1	9	AX9,ADZG,a(ikh)y	(good)
f45r	1	1	1	ZAX9,SADZG,sha(ikh)y	(good)
f72r3	L17	-	-	OEAX9,OEADZG,ola(ikh)y	(good second part of label)
f75r	4	1	4	8AX9,8ADZG,da(ikh)y	(probable first of line)
f86v6	22	3	3	PAX9,HADZG,ta(ikh)y	(good)
f89r1	11	3	2	4OAX9,4OADZG,qoa(ikh)y	(good)
f94v	1	1	1	OBSAX9,OPTADZG,opch(ikh)y	(good)
f102v1 8	1	8	AXCF9,ADZCDG,a(ikh)eky	(good end para)
f103r	11	4	3	8AX9F9,8ADZGDG,da(ikh)yky	(good last of line)
f103v	20	7	1	ZAX9,SADZG,sha(ikh)y	(good)
f103v	21	8	1	ZAX(C)9,SADZ(C)G,sha(ikhh)y	(good with extra joined h)
f107r	49	15	2	AX9,ADZG,a(ikh)y	(good)
f111r	11	4	2	AX9,ADZG,a(ikh)y	(good)
f114r	36	11	2	AX89,ADZ8G,a(ikh)dy	(good)
f24r	2	1	2	OFAIXOE,ODAIDZOE,okai(ikh)ol	(good)
f24r	9	1	9	4O8AIX9,4O8AIDZG,qodai(ikh)y	(good)
f46v	7	1	7	AIX9,AIDZG,ai(ck)y	(? weirdo without h)
f107r	30	10	1	AIIXC89,AIIDZC8G,aii(ikh)edy	(good)

f104v	35	11	1	OFAY(C)9,ODAFZ(C)G,oka(ifhh)y	(good with extra joined h)
f105v	25	8	1	AY(C)9,AFZ(C)G,a(ifhh)y	(good with extra joined h)
f106v	24	8	3	OFAY9,ODAFZG,oka(ifh)y	(good last of line)

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From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Oct 18 06:35:07 1997
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Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:05:11 -0200 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199710181005.IAA24402@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: labels and one-letter words
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Status: OR



    > I would be interested to learn:
    >
    > 1) Which labels are mostly on f58r

At the end of this message I have appended the text of f58r, copied
from Landini's interlinear (Friedman's transcription, FSG encoding),
showing some possible occurrences of "rare" labels.

Note that, for comparison purposes, have identified 

  "A" with "O" and "G",
  "F" with "P"
  "H" with "D", 
  "S" with "T", 
  "R" with "IR" and "2"
  "7" with "8"

(I may have left some out...)

Of course, any of these "possible matches" could be dismissed as a
mere coincidence.  However, as I said in my previous message, the
*number* of such matches is uncommonly high in this page.

The "rare" labels are those that occur at most 25 times in the 
plain text parts of the interlinear file.  I only considered labels 
that were transcribed in interln16.evt (see below).

Page f58r seems to be enriched in the "common" labels, too, but
showing those matches would require a lot of work.  Instead, I will
try to prepare a complete page-by-page occurrence map for all the
labels I have, in a format similar to the "word" map which I posted a
while ago.

    > (zodiacal at a hunch, but that would be expected anyway as 300
    > of the 700 labels are here)
    
Listed below are the pages whose labels were transcribed in interln16.
The right colum shows how many times a "rare" label from each of those
pages occurs in f58r.

    f67r1  astro
    f67v2  astro
    f68r2  astro
    f68v3  astro
    f68v2  astro
           
    f70v2  zodiac  xxxxxxxx
    f70v1  zodiac  x
    f71r   zodiac  xx
    f71v   zodiac  xxxxxxx
    f72r1  zodiac  xx
    f72r2  zodiac  xx
 
    f88r   pharma  x
    f88v   pharma  xxxxx
    f89r1  pharma  x
    f89r2  pharma  xxx
    f89v2  pharma  
    f89v1  pharma  xxxx

  The peak for f71v is mainly due to occurrences of OHAEO8G.  This label
  is "defined" on <f71v.S2.2>, and occurs 20 times in the whole VMs;
  five of those occurrences are in f58r.  

  The peaks for f88v and f70v2 may be bogus; they are mainly occurences
  of OHAEG/OHAEA7/ODOEG8, which are "substrings" of OHAEO8G under my
  character equivalence rules.

  The peak for f89v1 seems to be real: it is due to the labels

     OHOR.TO2 (twice),  ODORAE8G  8ARSO8G  

  They occur 24, 4, and 8 times, respectively, in the whole VMs (By the
  way, 8ARSO8G is "defined" twice as a plant label, once at f89v1.t.4
  and once at f89v1.b.4.  Perhaps the latter is a transcription error?)

I am intrigued by the strong 

    > My impression is that the average word length
    > calculations up to now have resulted a too low number,
    > because of a tendency to 'see' spaces where there may be
    > none. I think we have a mixture of 'real' spaces
    > and 'wider gaps' caused by typical letter shapes.

I agree. By the way, on page f58r, the beginning and end of a
putative label will often (but not always!) fall on "word" boundaries.

    > Stolfi's experiment of removing the spaces and reinserting them
    > according to fixed rules might work for more characters than
    > just the space (but probably not as well).

Interesting idea...

Here is f58r. Be sure to look at this with a fixed-width font
such as Courier.

    <f58r>
    # page 113
    # Currier's language A
    # text only, has one star in each paragraph
    # variant readings based on [1609|16xx]
    #
    # This transcription of f58r has extra comments after each line,
    # each showing possible occurrences of the "rare" labels
    # in that line. 
    #
    # For each possible match, the location where the string occurs as
    # a label is shown in braces {} on the left.
    # 
    # Some of Kluge's label locations have been renamed for consistency
    # with other transcriptions, e.g. <f72r2.03A> became <f72r2.S.3>.
    # 
    <f58r.1;F>         DOR.TOEFG.SOPTG.OHORAETG.TOFTOE.SOEG.OHAEG.8AEK-
    # {f70v2.S1.10}                                         OHAEG     
    # {f70v2.S2.5}                                          OHAEA7    
    # {f71v.S2.2}                                           OHAEO8G   
    # {f88v.t.1}                                            ODOEG8    
    <f58r.2;F>         8SO8AE.OR.DZG.OETCAR.TAR.HAE.GHAE.GHAR.OETODAE-
    <f58r.3;F>         GDCTO8.8AEAE.8AK.GHAK.TOHG.OHTG.OHAEG.SOHG.2-
    <f58r.4;F>         8SOR.SOEAR.AM.SAEOK.SAEG.8AETG.OHCOK.8AE.SOEAEAK-
    <f58r.5;F>         4OR.8TAIRAK.OHAR.OHAR.TAR.AR.AE.TAR.ARARG.GHAEAR.TAK-
    # {f71v.S2.4}                       OHAR.SAR
    # {f89v1.b.2}                       OHOR.TO2
    <f58r.6;F>         HORTCG.OHAM.TARG.OHCORG.OHAE.8AETOR.GDCCG.TOEHAK-
    <f58r.7;F>         2AM.TOE.DCCG.8AE.SOK.SOE.HCOE.GHAEO8G.OHCG.TCOEG-
    # {f70v2.S1.10}                                  OHAEG     
    # {f70v2.S2.5;C}                                 OHAEA7    
    # {f71v.S2.2}                                    OHAEO8G   
    # {f88v.t.1}                                     ODOEG8    
    <f58r.8;F>         OHTG.HOECCSAE.OECCAK.8AEOR.TG.OHCO8TG.GHCOTG.OHCG.DAE.8G.AEAK-
    <f58r.9;F>         SOEAM.TCG.GHCO.8AM.4OAR.AM.ARARG.SCCG.8AM.CAEAK-
    <f58r.10;F>        HAE.AR.AK.SAR.TCPTCG.OHAR.AE8G.OHAE.TCAK.4ODAM.OHCRG-
    # {f72r1.S.12}                          OHARAE8G
    # {f89v1.t.1}                           ODORAE8G
    <f58r.11;F>        4OPZO8G.4ODAEAK.TAIRAE.4OHZAM.OHAEAE.8AEOR.ORAR-
    # {f70v2.S2.5}              OHAE.AK
    # {f72r1.S.9}               ODAEAK
    # {f72r2.S.25}              OHOEAK
    <f58r.12;F>        SOARAR.TOE8AE.OHAETAE.8AE.TOE8G.ODAEG2.ARAE8G.SAR-
    # {f70v2.S1.11}                                    OHAE.ARAR
    # {f89r2.m1.2}                   ODOE.SOE.8G
    <f58r.13;F>        GHAR.SCCAR.TCOE8G.4DCOE.TCAE.TCO8G.TAE.TAM.OE.OEG-
    <f58r.14;F>        SARAK.ODAIR.TCDAM.4HTAEG.8AE.TAE.GDAE.ODAEAE.OEG.TAE-
    # {f71r.S.15}                                            OHAEAEG
    # {f88r.t.1}             OHORTCHG
    <f58r.15;F>        8AIIR.SAE.4OPAIK.TOEAEG.8G.SC8G=
    <f58r.16;F>        HGPTCG.AR.AIR.GHASG.4OHGSCG.PT8G.8SAEG.PG8AEG.TODG.OPG-
    <f58r.17;F>        GSOESG.4OHOEG.8AM.GDAE.8AET8G.4ODG.8AE.GHTO8G.2OEARAEG-
    # {f70v2.S1.10}            OHAEG     
    # {f70v2.S2.5;C}           OHAEA7    
    # {f71v.S2.2}              OHAEO8G   
    # {f88v.t.1}               ODOEG8    
    <f58r.18;F>        8ARAR.SOE.TOERAEG.TOEAM.O8AM.TAEG.8AEAR.AM.ODAE.OHAE-
    <f58r.19;F>        HO8AE.4OHCG.TAEG.8AE.4ODAE8G.OHARG.ODAEAE.SCC2.TAE.ATAEG-
    <f58r.20;F>        GSCODZG.OECCCG.OECC2CG.AEAM.OEDCAE.8AE8G.OHAEAR.AR.ARO8A*K-
    # {f70v2.S1.11}                                             OHAE.ARAR
    <f58r.21;F>        HTCO2.GTCOR.SCAN.ODCG.4OHAEG.8AM.TG.TOE.DAR.OEDCOE.OHG-
    # {f70v2.S1.10}                           OHAEG     
    # {f70v2.S2.5;C}                          OHAEA7    
    # {f71v.S2.2}                             OHAEO8G   
    # {f88v.t.1}                              ODOEG8    
    <f58r.22;F>        8TOEG.4HAR.TOE.8AE.4OANR.TAEOEDG.O2AE.TOHAK.TAE.OE2CCK-
    <f58r.23;F>        SOE.AECC8G.TOHAR.ODCAE.TCO8G.4ODAE.TAR.OHAE.TODG.2AR-
    <f58r.24;F>        HA*CM.OHCCOR.ODCAE.AR.OHAEOR.TCOCDAR.TCDG.OHADAR.OAR-
    # {f70v1.S.4}                ...ODCAEAR
    # {f71r.S.9}                    OHCOEAR
    # {f72r2.S.30}                  ODCAEAR
    <f58r.25;F>        TCDZG.OHCCOAEG.OHAR.AEDAR.ORAE8AR=
    <f58r.26;F>        DSAR.SODG.OPTCCAR.OFA8AM.OPSCOEAM.OPG8AM.PO8AIIR-
    <f58r.27;F>        GHCOR.OHG.TAE.HAR.AR.SCCCHTG.HAE.AE.TCAR.TCAR.TAR.ARAK-
    <f58r.28;F>        GSCAE.DAM.O8AEAEG.8AEAE.TG.2AIR.SODAR.OEAE8G.ODAEO8G-
    # {f70v2.S1.10}                                                 OHAEG     
    # {f70v2.S2.5;C}                                                OHAEA7    
    # {f88v.t.1}                                                    ODOEG8    
    # {f71v.S2.2}                                                   OHAEO8G   
    <f58r.29;F>        O8AEAR.TCOR.2AR.AEOE.8AEG.TCOK.TOR.AR.AE8AK.TAE.TCAE.2OK*-
    # {f89r1.b}                                            2AE8AK
    <f58r.30;F>        GHOR.AR.AEOK.4ODAEOR.T8G.8AIR.TO8G.TCOE.ODOETG.OHAE8G-
    # {f89v1.t.4}                               8ARSO8G
    # {f89v1.b.4}                               8ARSO8G
    <f58r.31;F>        O8STOE.HAM.ODAEOR.TOE.OECDAR.OHARTOE.TOE.DAK.4ODAE-
    <f58r.32;F>        O4OHAEHAEG.4ODAE8G.2TOHZCG.8AEOE2.4ODAEO2.TCOR.OCDCO8G.4ODAEG.4ODAR.8G-
    <f58r.33;F>        G2SCOE.TODCG.8AEOE.SODAEOE.4ODAEG.DAE8G.GHAIPAK-
    <f58r.34;F>        8HOR.SCOE.4ODOR.SARAE.DZOE.SOEAR.AM.SCOHZAK-
    # {f71v.S2.4}                 OHAR.SAR
    # {f89v1.b.2}                 OHOR.TO2
    <f58r.35;F>        2DAM.SODAE.TODZG.4ODG.THCG.GDCC2CG.SOCDAR-
    <f58r.36;F>        OPOEDCOR.OETOFZG.PZOE.TGPAE8G.TOEOE2.TDAM.OEFTAK-
    <f58r.37;F>        2GSCO2.ODAEG.TCO2.OHCG.GDAR.E2.AM.ODAM.GHOE.DAE-
    <f58r.38;F>        8HSOE.8GHAE.ODAR.OEOE.SCOE.4ODZG.4ODAEG.2AEOE.8AEAK-
    # {f89r2.b.5}                                        OHOEAROE
    <f58r.39;F>        GROECCCG.ARAIRAEG.PTO8G.HSAEG.AEOE2.GDAEG.DAR.ARAK-
    <f58r.40;F>        8TOE.TODAE.2AM.8AE.ODAE2.AETCG=
    # {f89r2.b.3}            AHAE2G       AHAE2G     

Best regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Oct 18 06:08:06 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re Weirdo family A
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:09:05 +0100
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Status: OR

>From Denis Mardle
Sorry - I misremembered
> Mary D'Imperio's book does have another table
>with 9 at the end of all the words.

The two tables I meant from fig.33 on page 111
were the Seven Great Angels ( John Dee ) :-
Sabathiel,Madimiel,Semeliel,Nogahel,Corabiel,
Lavanael,Zedekiel     and the Picatrix Planetary
Spirits   Asbil,Rufija'il,Rubija'il,Ba'il,
Bita'il,Harqil,Salja'il corresponding to Saturn,
Jupiter,Mars,Sun,Venus,Mercury,Moon.

Denis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Oct 18 07:17:08 1997
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Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:01:35 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: One letter words
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    > [stolfi:] In particular, the spaces seem to have been inserted
    > according to a rather simple set of rules, such as: ``insert a
    > space after "G", "K", "L", "M", "N", "R", and before a "4" and
    > "2"''.  (Robert Firth apparently reached a similar conclusion).
    > 
    > [John Grove:] How does this simple rule explain the primary
    > single characters listed in your stats?
    
First, note that the spacing rules above are only approximate; 15% of
the spaces are not accounted by them.  On the other hand, one-letter
"words" are relatively rare: about 50 in some 6500 words, or less than
1%.  Between these two numbers, there is plenty of room for
hand-waving...

Also, the rules will generate single-letter words from
certain sequences, such as "GR4" or "RE2"; or from 
"
    
    > I also think that 'G' is often found as an initial character in
    > a word.

Yes, but such cases are included in the 15% failure rate.

If the VMs spaces are the result of "ignorant scribes" interpreting
"G" etc. as abbreviated Latin suffixes, the scribes would naturally
tend to suspend the rules occasionally in order to avoid unattached
"suffixes".

    > Is there really that big of a difference?  I'm sure quite a few of
    > the labels are found throughout the text when you include word-breaks.
    > There is also quite possibly variant forms of 'label' words - ie. words
    > that have the label as a root.
    
I hope to have better data on this question, within a few days.
    
--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Oct 19 12:08:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:59:40 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Ignorant scribe theory
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    > [Rene:] I am not sure how we can judge the evidence for or
    > against [the "ignorant scribe" theory ]. For every indication
    > in favour of it, there is a multitude of alternative
    > explanations.  It is also very hard to come up with arguments
    > why one might think that the scribe *knew* what he was
    > writing. I.e. it is easier to find indications for one side than
    > for the other.
    
Yes.  Unfortunately, until the VMs gets "cracked", the "ignorant
scribe theory" (IST) will probably remain "unfalsifiable".

    > Perhaps it may be helpful to try and imagine a scenario where the
    > VMs is the product of an ignorant scribe. What would he be
    > transcribing from? Voynichese or something else he couldn't
    > understand? The former doesn't make sense, because then
    > his original would have also been loaded with the same evidence
    > for being the product of an ignorant scribe. ....

In my favorite scenario, the "ignorant scribes" were professional
copists at the medieval equivalent of a Xerox shop.  The original VMs
was very much like the Beinecke version, and by that time it was just
as mysterious.  Neither the scribes nor their client (John Dee?) could
read more into it than we can; so they had to guess the alphabet
and word breaks.

However, the original VMs would differ from the Binecke VMs in minor
details, such as word spacing, the shape of certain characters, etc..
In particular, it would not show the statistical anomalies and
inconsistencies that we can take as evidence for the IST: word breaks
would be statistically similar to line breaks, many labels would occur
literally in the text, the language and hadwriting would be more
homogeneous, there would be fewer "variant spellings" and tandem
repeats, etc.

    > And then there are the drawings. They seem much more like
    > originals.
    >
    > But if the scribe couldn't read the text, why would he
    > make a drawing of a flower next to it? So ignorant scribe means
    > pictures are copies too. Or they have nothing to do with the text.
    > Or the whole thing is a meaningless fabrication....

Perhaps we need some expert opinion here.  To me, the few VMs drawings
I have seen look like they were drawn by someone with good artistic skills, 
and then copied by someone who had no experience as an illustrator. 
That's because the general layout of the drawings and the main details are
nice and well-proportioned, with correct perspective; whereas
the small details are very crude.  

In folio f77v, in particular, the original East figure probably showed
a tube coiled into a spiral, whith dashed shadows; but in our copy the
tube looks more like a flat zig-zag, and the shadows have been turned
into some sort of solid friese.
    
    > Note that the half-related question why there is only this one Ms
    > in Voynichese and nothing else, may be answered with the possibility
    > that there were various pieces, and the VMs is simply the collation
    > of all extant ones. If we accept the evidence for a late 15C date
    > and a Dee foliation, it may have been in disorder for some time...

Right.

One possible argument against the IST is that the Beinecke VMs was 
obviously written one bifolio at a time, probably by two people
working in parallel (as you and Jim have pointed out). 
In that case, if the Beinecke VMs is a late copy,
we must assume that the original was still unbound at the time,
or that its binding was undone in order to facilitate the copying.
Both alternatives seem a bit unlikely...

A third alternative is that two scribes occasionally worked side by
side, copying from a bound original.  Scribe Alex copies page 25v,
while Bob copies page 26r on a separate sheet.  Then they turn the
page (and possibly swap places); Bob copies 26v, while Alex copies 27r
on a third sheet.  Then they skip to the other side of the quire; Alex
copies 30v, Bob copies 32r. Turning the page again, Bob copies 31v,
while Alex copies 32r.  Bob then leaves for a snack while Alex
keeps working...

I don't like this alternative, though.  It seems awkward and
confusing, and it does not explain why there are no mixed-hands
bifolios.  (If Alex has to switch back and forth between bifolia
X and Y, why wouldn't Bob volunteer to finish copying X
while Alex is busy with Y?)

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Oct 20 04:35:07 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Bill Scannell <scannell@terminal.cz>
Subject: The Table Bell of Rudolf II
Status: OR



Howzit,

I've been lurking for several months and have stumbled across something
that may be of use.

A while back someone brought up the Alchemy Conference that took place here
in Prague, my home these past six years.  This conference (which I did not
attend as I was out of the country) was organised as part of a series of
exhibitions on the life and times of Rudolf II.   I was spending an amusing
afternoon browsing through a CD ROM issued as part of this festival
entitled 'Bird of Paradise' when I noticed something that is possibly
VM-ian. ((BTW, the CD ROM is great:  it's filled with arcane facts, sounds
and images on alchemy (one even gets to perform experiments), history,
Rudolf II's 'Wunderkammer' and the personalities of the time.  There are
even 12 fugues written by everyone's favourite Imperial
physician/alchemist, Michael Maier. You haven't lived until you've heard
'Place A Toad On A Woman's Breast'. But I digress...))

One of the objects in Rudolf  II's  'Cabinet of Curiosities' was a small
table bell.  This bell depicted the gods of the seven known planets
together with the corresponding symbols of the zodiac.  The bell, probably
forged from a combination of seven metals, has a 'ancient, oriental,
magical and  indecipherable' text covering the outside of the mantle,  with
a similar indecipherable Greek text on the inside of the mantle. The
clapper is covered with Hebrew characters.

I've always suspected that the VM was encrypted by way of a 'one time' pad.
Has anyone ever looked at this bell?  If not, I will.  The VM is certainly
odd enough to have been part of Rudi's Wunderkammer; and considering some
of the other oddities that he collected,  it is not difficult for me to
imagine that a book with a bell as key could be a part of the collection.
The Wunderkammer was broken up after the defeat of the Bohemian forces in
1621.  Much of the collection ended up in Vienna and the Vatican. It
appears to tie in with what we know of the VM's history.

What do you make of this?

All the best,

Bill Scannell

PS:  If any of you want a copy of this CD-ROM, send me an e-mail.  It costs
around USD 35.



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Oct 20 05:17:08 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C1256536.003029B5.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:12:06 +0200
Subject: Re: The Table Bell of Rudolf II
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Bill  Scannell wrote:

> One of the objects in Rudolf  II's  'Cabinet of Curiosities' was
> a small table bell.  [ description deleted ]

Hi!
Did you actually see an image of this bell (on the CD-ROM) or
is there only a description of it?

> Has anyone ever looked at this bell?  If not, I will.

I.e. it is on display in Prague?

I know there exists a beautiful catalogue of an earlier
exhibition of material related to Rudolph, which was in
Vienna some time in the 80's. I will check it again,
unless you or anybody else already has a good image of it...

> it is not difficult for me to imagine that a book with a bell
> as key could be a part of the collection.

Having a good imagination is a joyful thing :-) but perhaps
this qualifies as a 'long shot'.
No problem with that. It sometimes feels as if every trail
followed on this manuscript is a long shot, and it sure is
great fun following them, most of the time.

> The Wunderkammer was broken up after the defeat of th
> Bohemian forces in 1621.  Much of the collection ended up
> in Vienna and the Vatican. It appears to tie in with what we
> know of the VM's history.

Not quite, as the current view is that the Ms was in or near
Prague after 1621, until as late as the 1660's, but that is
no objection, I think. If the long shot is true, the pair
(book and bell) must have been broken up a long time before
that.

Keep us informed,
       Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Oct 20 11:35:07 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Ignorant scribe theory
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:18:02 +0100
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Status: OR

  Stolfi writes
>A third alternative is that two scribes occasionally worked >side by side,
copying from a bound original.

 In my opinion there is no way f85/86 could have been copied
in a bound state.
 Note that virtually all very old manuscripts are only
extant because they have been copied. See especially
pages 52 and 53 of Blunt and Raphael's An Illustrated Herbal.
 Do many copies of Roger Bacon's original Mss survive ?
The only one I've assumed is original is 'Opus Major' in the
Vatican Library, but I suppose even that could be a copy by
an Assistant of his.  Were those owned by Dr John Dee copies
or originals ?

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Oct 20 19:08:07 1997
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Message-ID: <344BE2F8.4BEC8846@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:02:18 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Title pages
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4FEAE4E465098A6BAE8EBD82"
Status: OR

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4FEAE4E465098A6BAE8EBD82
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    Hi all!

            I've uploaded several gifs to somewhere in cyberspace.  I can't
seem to provide HTTP access to these files for now -- I'm really going to
have to learn more about webpages.   In the meantime I'll forward two of
the five gifs I've got that list all the Titles as I call them.  The page
and line information as well as the Currier transcriptions are from the
Interln.txt file.  You might note some minor differences between the
Currier transcriptions and the accompanying 'Voynichese' title.  Some of
these are corrections that seemed obvious to me -- i.e. 8AN instead of an
8AM.  Others are discrepancies that I see resulting from a none-coded
character such as found in a couple of the Z characters.  And of course,
there are some questionable spaces between words.

All of these titles are preceded by uninterrupted white space - i.e... the
space is not caused by a
drawing.  Almost all of them appear following a paragraph with the
following exceptions:
                41v -- Precedes paragraph
                57v -- Found outside of circle (Could be a label)
                65r -- Found on a page with a single plant (Could be a
label)
                66r -- Found above the figure at the bottom of the page
(Could be a label)

                        John.

PS.  If anyone really wants the other 3 pages just ask and I'll send them
to you directly.

--------------4FEAE4E465098A6BAE8EBD82
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="title1.gif"

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:48:18 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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If you're interested in seeing all four (not five) of those Title pages you
can find them at
http://members.tripod.com/~VoynichMs/Index.htm


                            John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 21 11:38:08 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re Title pages
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:37:37 +0100
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 From Denis Mardle
John Grove sent
>In the meantime I'll forward two of
>the five gifs I've got that list all the Titles as I call >them.  The page
>and line information as well as the Currier transcriptions >are from the
>Interln.txt file.  You might note some minor differences >between the
>Currier transcriptions and the accompanying 'Voynichese' >title.  Some of
>these are corrections that seemed obvious to me -- i.e. 8AN >instead of an
>8AM.  Others are discrepancies that I see resulting from a >none-coded
>character such as found in a couple of the Z characters.  >And of course,
>there are some questionable spaces between words.

John - Please check your Voynich text against the copy-flo
or the film.   You seem to have discrepancies which are
correct in the Currier on the left !!  I note that 
title1 is f24r to the second item on f42r and title2 is
f1r to f22v.  On Internet Explorer I get an interesting
picture of your Screen not just the bilingual text !

The errors are on f39r, second word ends E not 9;
f41v same error, also the RO may be a Z .
f1r is a bit difficult but f8r third item should be AIJ=AK
not AIR=AT.  On f22v the S9 is missing in the Voynich
font version.  How did you print the weirdoes ? One is in
the table I sent a few days ago, the S looks a bit dubious
however.
 No-one has commented on my Weirdo family A yet.

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 21 17:29:09 1997
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:25:30 -0400
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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        The titlepage on the net is now corrected, except that I've got
page one and two in the wrong order again!

> Dennis wrote:
> The errors are on f39r, second word ends E not 9;
> f41v same error

                Roger that -- fixed!

> , also the RO may be a Z .

            You could be right - although I think this is a good candidate
word for a correction in the MS -- ie. the copyist forgot the first word of
the text -- then spelt it wrong and had to squeeze in that character...

> f1r is a bit difficult but f8r third item should be AIJ=AK
> not AIR=AT.  On f22v the S9 is missing in the Voynich
> font version.

            Okay, got them too!

> How did you print the weirdoes ? One is in the table I sent a few days
> ago, the S looks a bit dubious however.  No-one has commented on my
> Weirdo family A yet.
>

            First, I've modified Gabriel's font to include a few wierdos.
Secondly, I've taken snapshots of the screen so that no one else has to
have the same font set as me.  I assume you meant the Z looks a bit dubious
rather than the S?  As for your Weirdo family -- I'm sorry, but I haven't
had a good chance to look it over as to comment myself.  I will do so in
the next few days if my monitor doesn't blow up!   My screen is shaking
violently as I type! (And, no I'm not slamming the keyboard too hard 8-)!

                        John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 22 07:35:08 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 21 Oct 97 at 16:37, Denis Mardle wrote:
>  No-one has commented on my Weirdo family A yet.

The reason why I haven't commented on the weirdoes (I can only speak 
for myself) is that we have been working in yet another weirdo 
annotation and classification which is in the pipeline to be released 
soon.
This will go together with a new font set which will allow to display 
all the vms consistently using a single font set. The notation will 
be "hard wired" to the new VTT programme by Rene. As a preview, let 
me say that "weirdoes" are things (characters or groups of 
characters) which are not writable in Currier. To write these, we 
have produced "extended eva characters" which make these weirdoes up. 
So that means that using the eval alphabet, there will be no 
weirodes, but only extended characters which will be put in the ASCII 
table between 128 and 255. Stay tuned!

Gabriel





From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 22 08:56:08 1997
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Denis wrote:

 > No-one has commented on my Weirdo family A yet.

 I wanted to respond directly, but just haven't got
 round to it.  It's not that I'm not interested,
 quite the contrary :-)
 But I've had little Voynich time lately and that's
 been dedicated to other things than the fun analysis
 type of stuff.

 I like the idea of numbers. I always have. (But it's
 not the only theory in contention that I like :-) ).
 The fact that there seems to be a very restricted
 order in which characters may appear in a word
 is similar to the way in which Roman numerals are
 formed, as many have pointed out. But I also like
 the Greek/Arabic system, (for which Agrippa also
 produced a Latin equivalent), of reserving 9 characters
 for 1-9, nine more for 10-90, nine more for 100-900 and
 I think the Arabic one even goes to 9000. Thus,
 (using Greek) 12 would be written iota-beta where
 iota=10 and beta=2. Now 21 would not be beta-iota
 but kappa-alpha (I think). This leads to 'words' making up
 numbers always having a strict ordering. To go
 beyond one thousand, a bar may have been drawn
 on top.

 Anyway, we are seeing another case of the very strict
 observation of character sequences in Voynichese,
 which leads to its anomalous h2.

 Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 22 09:44:09 1997
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Dear all,

Just a short word of clarification for those who've never
heard of VTT before:

> The notation will be "hard wired" to the new VTT programme
> by Rene.

VTT will let you 'preprocess' a transcription file
prior to submitting it to your favourite number-crunching
program.
Want to treat comma spaces as spaces?
Want to discard them?
Want to ignore spaces altogether?
Want to ignore words containing uncertain readings?
Want to remove the comments and foliation comments?
Want to process only the labels?
Want to process only the B-language pages?
want to process only the normal paragraph text on herbal pages?
Want to extract the FSG transcription from the interlinear file?
VTT will do any combination of the above in one run. Some
things will only work on the EVMT file, and some of the many
other options are targeted for a weirdo or ligature notation
as we'll introduce in there.
One option only works for files in EVA: the option to produce
the output file not in plain ASCII but as a Rich Text File.
Then, all comments and annotations will appear in an equal-spaced
font, and the Voynichese in Gabriel's soon to be released EVA
Hand-1 font which is capable of representing the entire Ms
including all its 'weirdoes'.

Stay tuned, indeed.

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 24 11:35:11 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Hi folks,

In 

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/label-maps/Welcome.html
  
you will find a preliminary "map" showing where each label is mentioned 
in the main text of the VMs. 

You may have to use a very small font to see or print the hole table.
If that is a problem, et me know and i will try to generate a smaller table.

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Oct 25 09:23:08 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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As usual, the label distribution maps that I posted yesterday [1] are
tantalizing but hardly conclusive.  I am still trying to figure out
whether they mean anything.

Some observations, which call for closed scrutiny:

  * My search was done after rather drastic "simplification"
    of the alphabet, i.e. with rather loose comparison criteria.
    Thus, it is questionable how many of the matches I found
    are words (or word parts) that merely resemble labels, rather
    than actual label references.
    
  * Most intermediate-frequency labels have strongly "lumped" 
    distributions.  Of course, this feature was already noted in the
    distribution maps of f77v labels [2] and of text words [3].  
    I take it as a strong evidence that the VMs is neither meaningless
    babble nor a complicated cypher.  It must be meaningful text in
    some natural-like language, either in-the-plain or with a very
    simple encoding.
    
  * The labels can be classified by eye into a few classes, 
    each with a distinctive distribution [4].  The class does not seem
    to depend on the page where the label is "defined" (i.e. the same
    diagram contains labels of several different classes).  There
    doesn't seem to be any relation between the structure of a label
    and its class.
    
  * Different sections of the VMs have clearly different label 
    distributions.  For instance, a certain class of labels clearly
    avoids pages f75v through f84v, the "bio" section.  (The boundary
    at f75v is quite sharp; note that there is a bunch of missing
    folios right before that spot). Another class is found mostly in
    the "bio" and "pharma" sections.  Another class is almost entirely
    confined to the herbal-B section (f31r to f57v). and so on.
    
  * If the matches are not mere coincidences, it seems that the 
    spacing of words in the text is very unreliable. 
    
  * Many of the labels that begin with "o" are found in the text
    preceded by a "4" character. The pattern suggests that the "4"
    is not part of the following word, but rather some kind of affix---
    an article, or the word "and", or...
    
Questions, questions...

--stolfi
    
[1] http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/label-maps/Welcome.html
[2] http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/labels/f77v-labels.html
[3] http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-distr-map.html
[4] http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/label-maps/map-selected.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Oct 27 03:26:09 1997
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From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:15:41 +0200
Subject: Voynich nymph in unknown ME Ms.
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Dear all,

advance apologies for this probably useless reference.

I saw a fragment of an Italian TV program in which there was
a very short image of a ME Ms. which had a typical naked VMs
nymph. She was in a very atypical position though, facing right,
kneeling, and handing a crown and a (bishop's ?) staff to a person
to her right. This was related to a myth about an early saint who
apparently had had a chain around his neck myraculously open
and fall off. This is still celebrated in S.Italy. I think I can find out
what
it is all about. The program was a discussion about miracles,
superstition and the Roman  church.

I started wondering. Pudgy, not-too-well-drawn nymphs do
exist outside the VMs. The drawing style for this figure was
really remarkably similar. I don't know if it means anything though...
D'Imperio, whose words we tend to take for granted, writes that
these nymphs are very unusual. We don't know, however, whom
she has consulted or which reports and notes she has read...
ME experts have looked at the VMs and could not find clear
parallels of its style with anything else, yet they will have seen
so many Mss from the relevant period. I'm thinking of people like
Singer, Panofsky.
If only we had a similar expert around right now, whom we could
ask questions of this sort...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 28 07:50:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:41:30 +0200
Subject: Meaningful text
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Dear all.

Does the VMs contain meaningful text?
Let me build up an argument that it may *NOT*. I then
hope that someone will offer a good reason why this argument is
wrong. This should not be too difficult since I am not a linguist and
several of you are :-)
So here goes. (And apologies for the absense of the correct
linguistic terms below. I'd appreciate if anyone could fill them in).

If I want to formulate a meaningful text, I have a concept in my head.
This concept I express in a number of sentences. These sentences
are not necessarily the highest-level units, because some sentences
do not make much sense by themselves, and others are really
combinations of sensible units. The things that make up the sentences
are 'groups of words'. These groups of words are concatenated or
interleaved, occasionally swapping the word order, to make up the entire
text.
I think these 'groups of words' are useful building blocks.

Obviously, groups of words are made up of single words.
Combining single words by some Monkey/Markov process
should not easily lead to meaningful text, but an imaginary
'word group' monkey would stand a better chance. So I think
there are two 'clever' processes, one combining words into groups
of words, and one (perhaps composite) combining groups of
words into sentences or a complete 'story'.

And next, words are made up of single characters. Here, I think
there is a completely different, unrelated process. Character
monkeys can create words but not 'groups of words' as intended
above. Character monkeys are mainly concerned with creating
pronouncible combinations of vowels and consonants (OK, this
is surely an oversimplification).
One consequence of this is that, with the exception of certain
forms of poetry, the rules for which character follows which
should be fundamentally different inside words and accross
word boundaries. The latter are determined by the (clever)
monkeys making word groups from words.

Now to the  VMs. Do we see different statistics of character pairs
inside words or accross word boundaries? I don't remember what
has been concluded in the past but I know it has been looked at,
perhaps for a different purpose.

Next, as a collection of characters and as a collection of words,
the VMs seems very 'well-behaved'.  All the statistics are reasonable:
single character frequencies, word frequencies are OK, Zipf's first and
second
laws are observed. Only the character h2 is too low, but this may be
due to our misunderstanding of what are the single characters or
to a variety of other things.
But the word groups are all wrong. There are no common groups
that have been identified. No strings of words occurring more than
once or twice. Far too many full word repeats. Even the
high-frequency words are repeated regularly (see Gabriel's web
article). And I also refer to earlier posts by Mike Roe, showing that
the repeated strings in the VMs are in fact the full word repeats
occurring in different places.
Most possible explanations for the lack of recognisable word groups fail
to explain why there are so many full word repeats. I'm thinking (e.g.)
of the possibility of a transposition cipher. (Let's hope
there is none, because the uncertain word spaces would effectively
prevent its solution.) With EKT, the word groups would be confused,
but the full word repeats would not arise. If they would, the word
groups would not be confused (I think - comments appreciated).
Any ambiguous encoding scheme (where a plaintext word may be
represented by different ciphertext words) would reduce the word
group repetitions but not introduce full word repeats. The inverse
could increase full word repeats (and the low character h2),
but would not reduce the occurence of word groups.

If the Voynich words are not words but parts of words (e.g.
syllables), the above reasoning is still valid. Groups of words are
also groups of syllables.
Furthermore, the ignorant scribe theory (IST) may explain the oddities
at character level, but not at the word group level.

I have this uneasy feeling that some kind of monkey process is more
likely to cause some of the features of Voynichese than a natural
language is, even when subjected to some elementary modification
(encoding) as those which have been proposed in the past.

Perhaps the above reasoning may lead someone to figure out a
scheme for detecting meaningful text in the VMs.
Some things that could be done is to revisit the character pair
distribution across word boundaries, and check how real language
behaves in this respect.
I also wonder what the 'repeated string' statistics look like in
normal languages.
And I'm curious whether Glotto or any of his offspring has this
detection of word groups among its functionalities...
And a question: are there any statistical methods of finding
evidence for a transposition cipher? I'm thinking that, for example,
the frequency of repeated high-frequency words should increase:
if in an English text the word 'the' occurs once every twelve words,
then it should be followed once every twelve times by another 'the'.
This is not true for real English, but could be for 'transposed English'.
Is it true for the high-frequency Voynich words?

Sorry for having rambled on...

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 28 09:59:09 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:53:23 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>  
> If I want to formulate a meaningful text, I have a concept in my head.
> This concept I express in a number of sentences. These sentences
> are not necessarily the highest-level units, because some sentences
> do not make much sense by themselves, and others are really
> combinations of sensible units. The things that make up the sentences
> are 'groups of words'. These groups of words are concatenated or
> interleaved, occasionally swapping the word order, to make up the entire
> text.
> I think these 'groups of words' are useful building blocks.

	The linguists can explain more fully.  Noun phrases and verb phrases
(which may include noun phrases as objects of verbs) are the two
fundamental types of 'groups of words'.  Noun phrases include nouns and
all their various modifiers - articles, adjectives, and relative clauses
which modify nouns.  

> Obviously, groups of words are made up of single words.
> Combining single words by some Monkey/Markov process
> should not easily lead to meaningful text, but an imaginary
> 'word group' monkey would stand a better chance. So I think
> there are two 'clever' processes, one combining words into groups
> of words, and one (perhaps composite) combining groups of
> words into sentences or a complete 'story'.
> 
> And next, words are made up of single characters. Here, I think
> there is a completely different, unrelated process. Character
> monkeys can create words but not 'groups of words' as intended
> above. 

	These comments remind me of this passage from the article on 
glossalalia to which Gabriel has a link on the EVMT Web site:
http://www.berkshire.net/~ifas/wa/glossolalia.html

"Syntactical analyses of glossolalia have yielded no linguistic 
patterns of tongue-speakers. Unfortunately, the architecture of a 
glossolalia blurb is rather inscrutable and nearly impossible to break 
down into sentences or phrases. And yet, most listeners and linguists 
agree that speakers of tongues incporate grammatical elements into 
their speech that would seem to be indicators of a syntactical 
arrangement. There are the necessary inflections and pauses and 
rhythmic cadences that appear to organize the verbiage into 
macrosegments (sentences), microsegments (words), phonemes. One theory 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
explains the metered vocalization as symptomatic of a rhythmical 
discharge of subcortical strucutres operating during a trance state. 
If speech is biologically interrupted, it could appear to be a 
sentence pause. It would certainly be hard to catch "words" being cut 
off or notice illogical breaks in expression when neither can be 
identified. "

> Character monkeys are mainly concerned with creating
> pronouncible combinations of vowels and consonants (OK, this
> is surely an oversimplification).
> One consequence of this is that, with the exception of certain
> forms of poetry, the rules for which character follows which
> should be fundamentally different inside words and accross
> word boundaries. 

	IIRC, some languages have sandhi rules that operate across word
boundaries.  I'm not sure that these are necessarily different from
rules that operate inside words.  

> But the word groups are all wrong. There are no common groups
> that have been identified. No strings of words occurring more than
> once or twice. Far too many full word repeats. Even the
> high-frequency words are repeated regularly (see Gabriel's web
> article). And I also refer to earlier posts by Mike Roe, showing that
> the repeated strings in the VMs are in fact the full word repeats
> occurring in different places.

> Most possible explanations for the lack of recognisable word groups fail
> to explain why there are so many full word repeats. 
>  I'm thinking (e.g.)
> of the possibility of a transposition cipher. (Let's hope
> there is none, because the uncertain word spaces would effectively
> prevent its solution.) With EKT, the word groups would be confused,
> but the full word repeats would not arise. If they would, the word
> groups would not be confused (I think - comments appreciated).
> Any ambiguous encoding scheme (where a plaintext word may be
> represented by different ciphertext words) would reduce the word
> group repetitions but not introduce full word repeats. The inverse
> could increase full word repeats (and the low character h2),
> but would not reduce the occurence of word groups.

	I've always thought that the VMs uses a verbose cipher or 
representation scheme.   Suppose we substitute:

c      ->  cat
ph(f)  ->  phek
n      ->  nun

Also suppose we put breaks at syllable boundaries rather than word
boundaries.  Using this, 

'cacaphony' ->  cata cata pheko nuny

In EKT, of course, I say that each phoneme has multiple substitutes. 
Using the above example,

c  ->  cat, cesh,  cop

The use of multiple substitutes could explain the absence of long
repeated phrases.  It does not explain the large number of repeated
words so well.  Perhaps the repeated 'words' are common syllables that
tend to be written the same way.  

	Perhaps the strings of 'words' repeated two or three times in a row are
like the example I gave above with 'cacaphony', and this is done as a
stylistic feature; the authors of the text simply liked the idea of
repeated strings of 'words' whenever the system could produce them.  In
Hebrew only the consonants are written (more or less).  Jacques once
noted writers of Hebrew like to compose sentences so that the same
groups of consonants are repeated.  

	However, these arguments do sound somewhat weak to me.  

	For those not familiar with EKT, visit my VMs Web page:
http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voynich.htm

> Some things that could be done is to revisit the character pair
> distribution across word boundaries, and check how real language
> behaves in this respect.
> I also wonder what the 'repeated string' statistics look like in
> normal languages.

	These sound like very good ideas!!

> And a question: are there any statistical methods of finding
> evidence for a transposition cipher? I'm thinking that, for example,
> the frequency of repeated high-frequency words should increase:
> if in an English text the word 'the' occurs once every twelve words,
> then it should be followed once every twelve times by another 'the'.
> This is not true for real English, but could be for 'transposed English'.
> Is it true for the high-frequency Voynich words?

	I think you are talking about a transposition cipher that scrambles
*words*, rather than letters.  That also is a very interesting idea. 
Classic transposition ciphers scramble the letters in a message.  The
single-character distribution looks exactly the same as that of a
cleartext in the underlying language, but of course you don't see
repeated digraphs and trigraphs.  You can certainly use the classic
transposition ciphers to scramble words rather than letters.  In that
case you would see the same distribution of word frequencies as in a
normal text in the underlying language.   

	Some ideas, anyway.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 28 12:32:08 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:28:51 +0000
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Hi all,
Just a few disconnected comments.

On 28 Oct 97 at 8:53, Dennis wrote:

> c      ->  cat
> ph(f)  ->  phek
> n      ->  nun

Well, we know that the "9" is used for "um" and "us" in latin, even 
in the quire numbering in the vms, and this would make possible to 
construct words that are written the same but could be read 
different. How do you know how to read "daiin daiin" which one is 
which one? 
In principle it seems very difficult, but the context would make it 
easier. One difficulty is that we do not know anything at all the 
context of the vms!

Japanese, is very context-sensitive and it can be difficult for a 
native Japanese to read everything written in roma-ji (one way of 
writing phonetically the language using the Roman alphabet). However, 
keeping a conversation is not a problem.

> In EKT, of course, I say that each phoneme has multiple substitutes. 
> Using the above example,
> 
> c  ->  cat, cesh,  cop
> 
> The use of multiple substitutes could explain the absence of long
> repeated phrases.  It does not explain the large number of repeated
> words so well.  Perhaps the repeated 'words' are common syllables that
> tend to be written the same way.  

But those annoying :-) repeating sequences could also mean numbers, 
or prayers.

Maybe some symbols just modify the rest.
It is not the same to say $10 than 10% or 10m or 10K and yet they are 
"symbolically" so near each other...

Regarding Rene's problem, I agree that it is difficult to even try to 
find some evidence of "vms is nonsense".
It is not random text, but then would you expect anybody in the 
(between 13 to 15 th century) to produce a sequence of symbols that 
are "random" in the actual sense whatever it may be {please don't 
throw stones!   :-)  }

regards to all,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Oct 28 17:23:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:15:22 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> Well, we know that the "9" is used for "um" and "us" in latin, even
> in the quire numbering in the vms, and this would make possible to
> construct words that are written the same but could be read
> different. How do you know how to read "daiin daiin" which one is
> which one?
> In principle it seems very difficult, but the context would make it
> easier. One difficulty is that we do not know anything at all the
> context of the vms!

	Good point!  A symbol, or group of symbols, could have different
meanings depending on context.  

> Japanese, is very context-sensitive and it can be difficult for a
> native Japanese to read everything written in roma-ji (one way of
> writing phonetically the language using the Roman alphabet). However,
> keeping a conversation is not a problem.

	I've always wondered about this.  I've got an article on Friedman's
breaking of the Japanese RED and PURPLE Enigma-type cipher machines just
before WWII.  It says that these machines "enciphered separately a
six-vowel and 20-consonant division of letters. These were the 26
letters of Romaji, a Roman alphabet."  Thus the PURPLE machine used
romaji.  The article also mentions a Japanese naval cipher machine that
enciphered katakana (syllabic characters).  I know that there was and is
a Japanese Morse system based on kana (syllabic characters).  So
obviously radio or cable communication is feasible with romaji or kana.  

	I also read an article about Admiral Yamamoto, the architect of the
Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor that brought the USA into WWII.  He
instituted training in clear writing style at the Japanese naval academy
at Eta Shima, so that orders would be less likely to be misunderstood.  
> 
> But those annoying :-) repeating sequences could also mean numbers,
> or prayers.

	Yes, they could be parts of incantations, as many have suggested. 
Toresella said that the alchemical herbals often contained
incantations.  

> Regarding Rene's problem, I agree that it is difficult to even try to
> find some evidence of "vms is nonsense".

	And difficult to find *any* clear evidence about it!  ;-)

> It is not random text, but then would you expect anybody in the
> (between 13 to 15 th century) to produce a sequence of symbols that
> are "random" in the actual sense whatever it may be {please don't
> throw stones!   :-)  }

	And why would someone in the 15th century go to all the trouble of
writing "gibberish" at such a length?  Books of any kind whatever were
rare back then.  That seems like a strong argument against its being
gibberish - unless all the gibberish was considered to be a magical
incantation.  

	The various examples of outsider art I've seen show that people can
produce pretty strange things as art.  However, I don't think I've seen
anyone producing lengthy written gibberish.  James Hampton's written log
for his Celestial Throne might be an example.  However, no one has ever
deciphered his log, either.  He had texts in plain English as well as
his personal, undeciphered script, so I doubt that his script was
gibberish.  And, of course, James Hampton created his Celestial Throne
in the 20th Century, when literacy is widespread.  

	Once again, here's the link for James Hampton's Celestial Throne:
http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/hampton.html

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 03:17:07 1997
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Dennis wrote:

 > The linguists can explain more fully.  Noun phrases and
 > verb phrases (which may include noun phrases as objects
 > of verbs) are the two fundamental types of 'groups of words'.
 > ...

 Thanks.

 > These comments remind me of this passage from the article
 > on glossalalia to which Gabriel has a link on the EVMT Web
 > site: ....
 From the description it would appear to me that study of
 glossolalia has not yet identified whether gl. is more
 like a Monkey process or more like meaningful language,
 correct? I am having trouble to visualise a written
 equivalent of glossolalia. It would be less spontaneous,
 I gather...

 > IIRC, some languages have sandhi rules that operate across
 > word boundaries.  I'm not sure that these are necessarily
 > different from rules that operate inside words.

 Ah yes, I forgot about them. Aren't sandhi operating across
 word boundaries mostly concerned with the spoken language?


>> [...] With EKT, the word groups would be confused,
>> but the full word repeats would not arise. If they would, the word
>> groups would not be confused (I think - comments appreciated).
>> Any ambiguous encoding scheme (where a plaintext word may be
>> represented by different ciphertext words) would reduce the word
>> group repetitions but not introduce full word repeats. The inverse
>> could increase full word repeats (and the low character h2),
>> but would not reduce the occurence of word groups.

 > I've always thought that the VMs uses a verbose cipher
 > or representation scheme. [...]

> In EKT, of course, I say that each phoneme has multiple
> substitutes.

> The use of multiple substitutes could explain the absence of
> long repeated phrases.  It does not explain the large number
> of repeated words so well.  Perhaps the repeated 'words' are
> common syllables that tend to be written the same way.
> [...]  and this is done as a stylistic feature; the authors
> of the text simply liked the idea of repeated strings of
> 'words' whenever the system could produce them.

If you can find a mechanism whereby the EKT can easily produce
repeated words but not repeated phrases with different words,
then this would be a useful exercise and a definite plus
for your hypothesis. Another thing needed is an explanation
for the occasional long words (which are not obviously
concatenations of short words).

> > And a question: are there any statistical methods of finding
> > evidence for a transposition cipher?

 > I think you are talking about a transposition cipher that
 > scrambles *words*, rather than letters.  That also is a very
 > interesting idea. Classic transposition ciphers scramble the
 > letters in a message

 Yes, that's what I meant. I never realised it would have been
 unusual.

 Re: Gabriel's worries about creating random numbers: our
 problems in this area are probably due to our (lack of)
 patience. We want to generate billions of them automatically,
 in a matter of seconds.
 With some good dice and a lot of time on his hands,
 a medieval person could produce something decent indeed.
 More importantly: he might very well be convinced that
 the product was not arbitrary but divinely or cosmically
 inspired. What I could imagine to be behind
 the VMs is someone with a pile of source books,
 picking single words from them arbitrarily and converting
 them to the Voynichese script one way or another.
 This would most probably be a 'deliberate fraud' type of
 scenario, however, or again someone thinking that his
 selection of the words would be cosmically inspired.
 The weirdest things happened in those days. To digress
 for a second, there is the following anecdote from late
 classical times, which I like so much I simply have to
 tell it :-)

 A high-ranking church official was asked to exorcise a
 young girl who had been given a love potion. When he
 started communicating with the 'spirit' the spirit said
 he would be happy to leave but he could not, since he'd
 had to enter the girl's body under great stress. The
 girl's father then wanted to take the 'magician' reponsible
 for this to court, using the spirit as a witniess but
 this failed because the priest managed to exorcise
 it beforehand :-)

 Seriously, again.
 Whether or not books of the size of the VMs would be rare is
 a matter of personal interpretation. I always thought they
 would be, but I learned that there are thousands and thousands
 of Mss written in the middle ages that are still extant.
 Again, the size of the book should not be surprising in
 the deliberate fraud scenario. What is certainly significant
 is that it's all written on parchment. This means that the
 person who wrote it was serious about what he was
 doing, one way or another. These are not draft scribbles,
 college notes, or anything of that nature. This is the
 final product.

 To get back to the question about meaningful text of lack
 thereof. The result of a word transposition cipher or
 arbitrarily picking words from a book should probably
 have a 'second order word entropy' close to the first
 order value. Can we compute it?

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 03:11:08 1997
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From: jrvanmeter@ucdavis.edu
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: meaning of the "bathtub" illustrations
Status: OR

Regarding the illustrations of naked ladies in "bathtubs" connected to 
"plumbing", I offer the following conjecture:  These are schematic diagrams of 
plants wherein the leaves and petals have been cut away in order to focus 
attention on the specific biomechanisms apparently under discussion: that of 
the reproductive organs of plants and the natural "plumbing" that brings 
nourishment to these organs.  The "bathtubs" are really petal-less flowers (or 
cut-open fruits) and the presence of the pregnant or at least very fertile-
looking women is intended to metaphorically indicate the function of these 
flowers (or fruits).  Note the resemblance of the "bathtubs" in folios 77 and 
79 to the bowl-shaped flowers in folios 24 and 34.  The "pipes", therefore, are 
really stems and stalks.  Folio 77 appears to depict a ground-creeping vine 
while folio 79 depicts a vertically ascending plant.  Those three things 
dangling below the center "bathtub" in folio 77, furthermore, may be roots; 
consider the resemblance to the roots depicted in folio 34.

One more comment:  That crucifix wielded by the woman in the topmost flower
of folio 79 seems out of place to me.  I wonder if this modification was added 
to this illustration by someone other than the original artist, someone 
anticipating a holy inquisition.  Not wanting to alter the manuscript too much, 
a fearful yet respectful embellisher may have added this token Christian symbol 
to serve as evidence, however nominal, in the event that the manuscript must be 
defended against accusations that its contents are satanic.  

Regards,
Jim Van Meter

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 04:47:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:43:19 +0000
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Status: OR

On 28 Oct 97 at 16:15, Dennis wrote:
> 	And why would someone in the 15th century go to all the trouble of
> writing "gibberish" at such a length?  Books of any kind whatever were
> rare back then.  That seems like a strong argument against its being
> gibberish - unless all the gibberish was considered to be a magical
> incantation.  

But the fact of "why anybody would..." should not be taken to 
formulate a "null hypothesis". We do not have a clue what those 
reasons would be...

I have a copy of Marsaglia random numbers CD. If there is a 
catastrophe and my CD is the only thing left on earth, somebody may 
find it difficult to believe that that is really a "random number 
CD". Why to make such a thing?
Is there meaning in the Codex Serphinianus (sorry if the spelling is 
wrong).

With the vms we know that at least, there was money inovlved, so 
there *might* have been a reason to make long nonsense texts.

> 	The various examples of outsider art I've seen show that people can
> produce pretty strange things as art.  However, I don't think I've seen
> anyone producing lengthy written gibberish.

Codex Seraphinianus? (I haven't seen it)

As usual, I have more questions than answers...

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 11:17:11 1997
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Subject: meaning of the "bathtub" illustrations
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jrvanmeter wrote:

> Regarding the illustrations of naked ladies in "bathtubs"
> connected to "plumbing", I offer the following conjecture:
> These are schematic diagrams of plants wherein the leaves
> and petals have been cut away in order to focus attention on
> the specific biomechanisms apparently under discussion: that
> of the reproductive organs of plants and the natural "plumbing"
> that brings nourishment to these organs.  The "bathtubs"
> are really petal-less flowers (or cut-open fruits) and the
> presence of the pregnant or at least very fertile- looking
> women is intended to metaphorically indicate the function of
> these flowers (or fruits).

Certainly a tenable idea. Tiltman compared the nymphs with
spirits or something which took care of the processes in the
human anatomy, and this could also be applicable to the
'plant anatomy'. The cosmological section would then also
be a representation of something related to plants....

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 10:44:14 1997
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Date: 29 Oct 1997 10:39:39 -0500
From: "Guy Thibault" <gthibault@artefact.qc.ca>
Subject: Objet:  Yet more hypothesis :-)
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@RAND.ORG>
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Status: OR


Dear all,

Still working on the idea that the "nymphs" depicted in the zodiacal circles
represent a daughter of royal descent who had a twin sister... So far I have only
one match and this set the epoch to 1438 and the daugthers of Charles VII, pseudo-King
of France (until Joan of Arc came along). 

I gathered as many events as I could, that were suceptibles to be noteworthy 
and I am trying to match them with drawings. So far the bets results seems to indicate
two scale of time. Which is the correct one???

Common base:
Start of circle is at 10 o'clock (not noon) - birth is depicted at 10, where there are third rings
they "start" at 10 o'clock...
You read clockwise

H1: The circles are read from the inner ring first, going outward.
Each nymphs is a lunar month (full moon).
This would bring us right to the end of Charles VII reign.

H2: the inner ring nymphs are the full moon
the next ring (going outward) are the half moon (crowing C|, and decreasing D)
when there is an extra third ring this is the first quarter and last quarter
That way one can pin point an event to within a couple of days and this brings us
to sometime after the death of the older daughter in 1446.
This means that where there is tho rings, you read the outer first, this is the growing
phase towards full moon, then the inner ring which is full moon, and then back to the outer
ring for the half moon going towards the new moon... 

I am still trying to gather data on events of that era, and of course I am still exploring
new hypothesis ;-)

I just thought I might mentions these (new?) interpretations while you were all discussing
the bathing beauties and stuff ;-) We might have known word yet :-) for the labels!

Cheers
Guy Thibault

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 08:59:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:56:16 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Status: OR

Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> But the fact of "why anybody would..." should not be taken to
> formulate a "null hypothesis". We do not have a clue what those
> reasons would be...
> 
> I have a copy of Marsaglia random numbers CD. If there is a
> catastrophe and my CD is the only thing left on earth, somebody may
> find it difficult to believe that that is really a "random number
> CD". Why to make such a thing?

	Exactly!  With most issues regarding the VMs, we don't have enough data
to completely reject it.  We can only talk about probabilities.  Rene's
point, that the author(s) may have used words at random and regarded the
results as cosmically inspired, is a good one.  Something like that
could then be used like the oracles of Nostradamus or the Chaldean
Oracles of late antiquity.  

	FWIW.  In Edward Debono's book *Lateral Thinking*, a guide on thinking
creatively, he recommends the following technique for working on any
type of problem.  Use a table of random numbers to choose a page in a
dictionnary at random.  Then use the table of random numbers to choose a
word entry on that page at random.  Then try to think of as many ways as
possible that the randomly-chosen word relates to the problem at hand. 
This technique frees the mind from pre-conceived ideas and generates a
lot of new ideas.  

	This technique is reminiscent of some divining techniques - eg.,
choosing a passage from the Bible at random.  

> Is there meaning in the Codex Serphinianus (sorry if the spelling is
> wrong).

	On 29 Jan 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> Once I tried to list the "alphabet" of the Codex Seraphinianus, which 
> is manufactured nonsense. I soon gave up. I had reached the 80th 
> letter or so, and the alphabet was not stable. It was as if you found 
> lots of e's in Chapter 1 and hardly any at all in Chapter 5. This is 
> not the same situation as in we in the VMS, with its two "hands" 
> characterized by different frequencies. There is a common core between 
> the two "dialects" (4 almost always followed by O, for instance) which 
> is not there in the Codex Seraphinianus. 
------------------

> [Gabriel] With the vms we know that at least, there was money inovlved, so
> there *might* have been a reason to make long nonsense texts.

	Yup.  Of course, the "humanist hand" suggests that the VMs was composed
in the 1400's, while (presumably) Dr. John Dee didn't sell the VMs to
Rudolph II for 600 ducats until around 1580.  So the original
composition may or may not have involved money.  

	BTW, can anyone give the present-day monetary value, or weight in gold,
of 600 ducats?

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 09:32:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:28:42 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
>  > [Dennis] The linguists can explain more fully.  Noun phrases and
>  > verb phrases (which may include noun phrases as objects
>  > of verbs) are the two fundamental types of 'groups of words'.

	Another problem.  Many Indo-European languages (ancient Greek and
Latin, most of the modern Slavic languages) have noun declensions.  Thus
a noun ending indicates whether the noun is the subject of the clause,
the direct object, the indirect object, or something else.  Because of
this, these languages have a word order that is much freer than that of
English.  Identifying classes of words from just the word order of such
a language would be difficult.  Latin, of course, is one good candidate
of the underlying language of the VMs.  Question:  did medieval Latin
have a more fixed word order than classical Latin?  

	Jacques did write Son of Glotto to help investigate the syntax of
Voynichese - to possibly classify words as nouns or verbs.  

>  From the description it would appear to me that study of
>  glossolalia has not yet identified whether gl. is more
>  like a Monkey process or more like meaningful language,

	This is my impression.  Of course, our professional linguists 
(Jacques, Andras, Moonhawk) would know much more.  

>  Ah yes, I forgot about them. Aren't sandhi operating across
>  word boundaries mostly concerned with the spoken language?

	Yes, but I suppose some languages might represent the changes that
appear in speech in writing as well.  I can't think of any examples
right now.  

	Some languages, such as German and Russian, have a rule called final
devoicing. In German, the common adjective ending -ig (heilig) is
pronounced -ik if nothing follows it, but is pronounced -ig if something
does follow it (heilige).  

	Question: suppose "heilig" is followed by a word beginning in a vowel. 
Is the -ig pronounced -ik or -ig?  If so, this rule would operate both
within words and across word boundaries.  

> If you can find a mechanism whereby the EKT can easily produce
> repeated words but not repeated phrases with different words,
> then this would be a useful exercise and a definite plus
> for your hypothesis. Another thing needed is an explanation
> for the occasional long words (which are not obviously
> concatenations of short words).

	Two excellent points!  I'm currently watching the work, especially by
Jorge Stolfi, on the paradigms for Voynich text.  That has to fit into
EKT as well.  

>  > Classic transposition ciphers scramble the
>  > letters in a message
> 
>  Yes, that's what I meant. I never realised it would have been
>  unusual.

	Perhaps not unusual.  H. F. Gaines' *Elementary Cryptanalysis* 
gives at least a couple examples of it.  It's just not as secure 
as transposition of letters - unless you combine it with a 
substitution cipher, which may have been done with the VMs.  

>  With some good dice and a lot of time on his hands,
>  a medieval person could produce something decent indeed.
>  More importantly: he might very well be convinced that
>  the product was not arbitrary but divinely or cosmically
>  inspired. 

	Yes!  See my response to Gabriel's note.
 
>  A high-ranking church official was asked to exorcise a
>  young girl who had been given a love potion. When he
>  started communicating with the 'spirit' the spirit said
>  he would be happy to leave but he could not, since he'd
>  had to enter the girl's body under great stress. The
>  girl's father then wanted to take the 'magician' reponsible
>  for this to court, using the spirit as a witniess but
>  this failed because the priest managed to exorcise
>  it beforehand :-)

	A great story!  Here's one I like; I think it occured during the
Napoleonic Wars.  There was a town on a river, and the town had a stone
that miraculously shed water on a certain day of the year.  Some of
Napoleon's warships were occupying the town.  On the appointed day, the
miracle didn't occur.  The townspeople thought this was a sign of divine
disfavor over the warships and were ready to riot.  One of the ship's
captains visited the town mayor and told him that his ships would
bombard the town if the miracle didn't occur by 5:00 PM of that day.  Of
course, the miracle occured. ;-)

>   What is certainly significant
>  is that it's all written on parchment. This means that the
>  person who wrote it was serious about what he was
>  doing, one way or another. These are not draft scribbles,
>  college notes, or anything of that nature. This is the
>  final product.

	Yes.

>  To get back to the question about meaningful text of lack
>  thereof. The result of a word transposition cipher or
>  arbitrarily picking words from a book should probably
>  have a 'second order word entropy' close to the first
>  order value. Can we compute it?

	You could certainly use MONKEY to compute the word entropies and the
character entropies of such a text.  I don't think you'd see *any*
difference in the second-order character entropy, from those of a plain
text.  The second-order *word* entropy of such a text would be higher
than that for a plain text.  

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 09:47:10 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:43:48 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Welcome, Jim v.M.!  

jrvanmeter@ucdavis.edu wrote:
> 
> Regarding the illustrations of naked ladies in "bathtubs" connected to
> "plumbing", I offer the following conjecture:  These are schematic diagrams of
> plants wherein the leaves and petals have been cut away in order to focus
> attention on the specific biomechanisms apparently under discussion: that of
> the reproductive organs of plants and the natural "plumbing" that brings
> nourishment to these organs.  The "bathtubs" are really petal-less flowers (or
> cut-open fruits) and the presence of the pregnant or at least very fertile-
> looking women is intended to metaphorically indicate the function of these
> flowers (or fruits).  Note the resemblance of the "bathtubs" in folios 77 and
> 79 to the bowl-shaped flowers in folios 24 and 34.  The "pipes", therefore, are
> really stems and stalks.  Folio 77 appears to depict a ground-creeping vine
> while folio 79 depicts a vertically ascending plant.  Those three things
> dangling below the center "bathtub" in folio 77, furthermore, may be roots;
> consider the resemblance to the roots depicted in folio 34.

	I like these ideas!  I've always thought that the plumbing in some of
the biological folios represents the natural circulation of sap, etc.  

	Would someone in the medical sciences say when the circulation of blood
was discovered?  IIRC, it wasn't known to the ancient Greco-Roman
world.  

	Another odd idea.  The alchemical operations of which I am aware were
performed in a batch fashion.  Were there any performed in a *flow*
fashion - with liquids flowing continuously in and out of vessels?   If
so, such operations might be represented in some of the biological
folios.  

> One more comment:  That crucifix wielded by the woman in the topmost flower
> of folio 79 seems out of place to me.  I wonder if this modification was added
> to this illustration by someone other than the original artist, someone
> anticipating a holy inquisition.  Not wanting to alter the manuscript too much,
> a fearful yet respectful embellisher may have added this token Christian symbol
> to serve as evidence, however nominal, in the event that the manuscript must be
> defended against accusations that its contents are satanic.

	Interesting point!  Of course, she is holding something.  If there had
been an alteration, whoever did it would have had to erase whatever she
was originally holding, or redrawn that whole arm.  The nymphs do hold a
number of other objects - which we can't really identify.  

    D'Imperio writes: "Another important detail to be noted in several
of the drawings of this section [biological drawings, nudes] is a
small cross with one long arm (for example, at the top of folio 75r,
serving as a focus for diverging rays; on 75v to the right within a
field of rays and clouds; on 78r at the focus of a grape- or cloud-
like cluster at upper left; and on 79v, top, at the focus at the focus
of a frilly canopy of rays over the head of a figure who also holds a
cross in her hand).  These symbols are quite small and unobtrusive,
but usually seem to form a central focus or origin for rays descending
upon the female figures.  The crosses provide an unmistakeably
Christian frame of reference for the doctrine being expounded by the
scribe of the manuscript - a point not specifically remarked upon by
other students to my knowledge." (p. 20).

	Of course, the other crosses she mentions are much smaller 
than the one the nymph in f79v holds.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 21:24:26 1997
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Wow, lots of messages all of a sudden...

Rene asks,

    > Does the VMs contain meaningful text?

At this point, my feeling is that it does. 

The curcumstantial evidence seems weakly positive: the quality,
uniformity, and size of the book indicate planning, sustained effort
(months of work), and non-trivial resources.  We don't know what the
drawings are supposed to represent, but there does sem to be some
logic and purpose behind them. And so on.

The internal evidence is stronger: the distribution of words, and in
particular of labels, shows clustering and sectional dependencies of the
sort one expects in meaningful text, and which would be hard to
explain otherwise.  Since it takes a computer to see these features, I
can't believe that a medieval author would have thought of "faking"
them, or would be able to do so.

On the other hand, it seems that there is an awful lot of "noise" in
the VMs, only some of which can be attributed to modern transcription
errors.  I think that the most pressing issue now is deciding whether
the "ignorant scribe" theory holds water.  If true, it would
drastically limit our goals, and force us to change our methods.

    > Now to the  VMs. Do we see different statistics of character pairs
    > inside words or accross word boundaries?
    
Yes we do, and in fact the differences are so great that we could
reproduce most of the word breaks by looking at two consecutive
characters at a time.

    > But the word groups are all wrong. There are no common groups
    > that have been identified. No strings of words occurring more
    > than once or twice.  Furthermore, the ignorant scribe theory
    > (IST) may explain the oddities at character level, but not at
    > the word group level.

I am not so sure.  Even a moderate error rate (say, one every 20
characters) would prevent us from recognizing repeated strings
of words.

    > Far too many full word repeats.  ...  Most possible explanations
    > for the lack of recognisable word groups fail to explain why
    > there are so many full word repeats.  ...

As others have pointed out, since the VMs is a "technical" 
text, it may have a repetitious structure, eg. numbers,
lists of dates or ingredients, incantations, etc..

Also, an ignorant scribe is likely to omit significant details (such
as the tail of "Q", the extra leg of "R") and therefore identify
distinct words.

    > Perhaps the above reasoning may lead someone to figure out a
    > scheme for detecting meaningful text in the VMs.
    
The only proof I can imagine is a "decoding" of the VMs that is 
obviously correct.

    > I also wonder what the 'repeated string' statistics look like in
    > normal languages.

I will try to generate some...

    > I'm thinking that, for example, the frequency of repeated
    > high-frequency words should increase: if in an English text the
    > word 'the' occurs once every twelve words, then it should be
    > followed once every twelve times by another 'the'.  This is not
    > true for real English, but could be for 'transposed English'.
    > Is it true for the high-frequency Voynich words?

A couple of months ago I did some tabulations of this sort,
for the "bio" section[1]. 

The word pair statistica do not seem to be random. For instance, in
the particular encoding I used, the three most common words are
"qoHc8a", "qoHcc8a", and "zcc8a".  their frequency is approximately
the same (180--200 times in 7054 words); therefore, we would expect
4--6 occurrences for each pair of those words. The actual counts are

     "qoHc8a qoHc8a"    14
     "qoHc8a qoHcc8a"   14
     "qoHc8a zcc8a"      8
     
     "qoHcc8a qoHc8a"   15
     "qoHcc8a qoHcc8a"   8
     "qoHcc8a zcc8a"     2
     
     "zcc8a qoHc8a"     16
     "zcc8a qoHcc8a"    13 
     "zcc8a zcc8a"       5   

Also, "oe zcc8a" occurs 10 times, instead of the expected 3--4. And so
on.

On the other hand, "ccc8a zcc8a" should occur 4 times, but occurs only
once. Etc.

The deviations from randomness seem significant, but nowhere as
strongs as those for English[2] or Portuguese[3].  In the English
table, for instance, one can clearly distinguish a few major classes of
words (verbs, pronouns, etc.)  The Portuguese table shows the effect
of the Romance gender/number matching rules ("a aresta", "o complexo").
And, of course, there are practically no repeats ("it it" is the
only English example, probably spanning a sentence boundary.)

The relative randomness of the VMs two-word statistics, and the
frequent repeats, could be explained in several ways.  First of all,
the VMs "word" spaces are probably bogus, so the "words" may well not
be true words but syllabes or other letters groups.  Also, the
hypothetical "ignorant scribe" and/or the modern transcribers may have
ignored some significant details of leter shapes, and therfore
identified words that were originally distinct.  In fact, the encoding
I used does that on purpose, in order to remove some of the
transcription noise.  This identification of graphically similar words
has the effect of blurring the two-word statistics, and creating word
repeats. (Imagine if we identified English "the" with "she", "it" with
"if", etc.).

Working with labels instead of "words" may be a way of neutralizing
the bogus-space problem.  As for transcription noise and bit-loss,
the only solutions I can think of are to "filter out" the noisiest
parts of the data (as in my "lossy" encodings), and consider only
aggregate statistics, where the errors have a chance of being
averaged out.

Well, enough for today...

--stolfi.

[1] http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-pair-table.html#kktable
[2] http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-pair-table-engl.html
[3] http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/word-pair-table-port.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Oct 29 22:02:35 1997
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    > [Dennis:] Rene's point, that the author(s) may have used words
    > at random and regarded the results as cosmically inspired, is a
    > good one.  Something like that could then be used like the
    > oracles of Nostradamus or the Chaldean Oracles of late
    > antiquity.
    > 
    > FWIW.  In Edward Debono's book *Lateral Thinking*, a guide on
    > thinking creatively, he recommends the following technique for
    > working on any type of problem.  Use a table of random numbers
    > to choose a page in a dictionnary at random.  Then use the table
    > of random numbers to choose a word entry on that page at random.
    > Then try to think of as many ways as possible that the
    > randomly-chosen word relates to the problem at hand.  This
    > technique frees the mind from pre-conceived ideas and generates
    > a lot of new ideas.

This random word-pairing trick seems to be pretty much the essence of
Ramon Llull's philosophical system.  

He was a 13th century Catalan scholar, somewhat on the
eccentric-obsessive side (-8 just the type of person who might have
written the VMs 8-). He apparently filled whole books with exhaustive
enumerations of word pairs and their philosophical interpretations.

One of his books even had moveable paper wheels (the earliest known
instance of such devices) to help the reader generate word pairs by 
himself.

My source is "Science: Good, Bad, and Bogus" by Martin Gardner.
(Needless to say, he has a rather low opinion of Llull's work.)

--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct 30 10:57:40 1997
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	could someone please E-MAIL me the mailing list address for this 
newsgroup? thanks

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct 30 11:06:21 1997
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Thanks to all for the feedback!!

When asked, does the VMs contain meaningful text? Stolfi and Jacques
both tended to believe so, and so do I (most of the time, not always :-)).

But I disagree that we should not try to test the opposite. That is:
I think it would be very useful to try and find evidence that the
text is meaningless, or random. In general,  it would be nice
to come up with ways to detect meaningless text, but of more
immediate use for us would be two of the three possible outcomes:
- we can indicate that it is meaningless
- we can indicate that it is not.
(the third option being obvious and also the most likely one :-/)

Stolfi:

> the quality, uniformity, and size of the book indicate
> planning, sustained effort (months of work), and
> non-trivial resources.  We don't know what the
> drawings are supposed to represent, but there does sem
> to be some logic and purpose behind them. And so on.

Fully agreed. This is what I also argued before, on the basis of
the resources required. This does not, however, mean that the
contents are meaningful.  Just that the writer(s) were quite
serious, and purposeful as you say, about what they were doing.
Whether Dee, Kelly were inclined to do this to get some
hard money out of Rudolph, I don't know. But I think they were
totally capable of it.
And with a pile of books from Lull, picking words at random,
the (almost) consistent statistical properties of the text could
result. It did *not* take a computer to detect the oddities.
Petersen and  Tiltman did not have or use one to come up with
essentially the same observations as everybody after them.

 > ..the distribution of words, and in particular of
> labels, shows clustering and sectional dependencies of
> the sort one expects in meaningful text, and which would
> be hard to explain otherwise.

I certainly hope it's true. I think some quantitative
test of this is required, especially compared with readable
text. Certainly, from Jacques' comments echoed by Dennis,
the Codex Serafinianus fails in this respect.

    >> Now to the  VMs. Do we see different statistics of character pairs
    >> inside words or accross word boundaries?

> Yes we do, and in fact the differences are so great that we
> could reproduce most of the word breaks by looking at two
> consecutive characters at a time.

Which is totally unlike any language I know of, with the one
big exception of Arabic. Here I should say: the Arabic script,
because this is obviously used for many languages.  Even
Portuguese has for a while been written in the Arabic script.
I have a sample at home of Portuguese transcribed from the
Arabic script, and I presume it will have different
properties from the original text (had it originally been
written in the Roman alphabet).

> I am not so sure.  Even a moderate error rate (say, one
> every 20 characters) would prevent us from recognizing
> repeated strings of words.

It would remove them, indeed. Depending on the type of error
made, we might still (perhaps?) recognise them. Note also
that the longest repeated string is 23 characters, if
I remember well.

> As others have pointed out, since the VMs is a "technical"
> text, it may have a repetitious structure, eg. numbers,
> lists of dates or ingredients, incantations, etc..

But do known readable texts of this nature display similar
properties? Looking through the library catalogues found
at the 'Alchemy' web site, many alchemical Mss end with
sections containing 'recipes'. I'd love to have a sample of
those...(for text analysis purposes, I hasten to add :-) ).

> The word pair statistica do not seem to be random. For instance,
> in the particular encoding I used, the three most common words
> are "qoHc8a", "qoHcc8a", and "zcc8a".  their frequency is
> approximately the same (180--200 times in 7054 words); therefore,
> we would expect 4--6 occurrences for each pair of those words.
> The actual counts are

[ommitted but generally higher, say 10-15].
OK, this appears significantly non-random. That is definitely a
point against the random/scrambled text option. The only
problem remaining is that they 'should have been' lower.
In incantations and recipes, it's not the words like
'the' and 'it' which are repeated. If we have mostly
numbers, the repetitions would also not be of the most
frequent words, and the frequency distribution would be
flatter. Further, we need to check if the other sections
behave in essentially the same manner or not. Also,
statistics for the most frequent word overall (8AM) should
be checked.

> The deviations from randomness seem significant, but nowhere
> as strongs as those for English[2] or Portuguese[3].

Yes, this is the problem which led me to my original post.
How can we quantify this? (I'm an engineer, you see :-) )

> First of all, the VMs "word" spaces are probably bogus,
> so the "words" may well not be true words but syllabes or
> other letters groups.

Perhaps yes, but as I argued, this should not destroy the
repeated strings, unless... the spaces were inserted at
random and then the characters around it were forced to
assume alternative shapes (e.g. an o preceding a space
must have a tail)... If your 'reduced alphabet'
were the correct one, this would also be overcome, and
more repeated strings would show up. It's not at all
excluded that, doing this sort of experiments, all of a
sudden one stumbles onto something.

Jacques wrote:

> Those alliterative pairs reek to high heaven of what a
> great many real languages do. Balinese is riddled with them.
> Bahasa Indonesia too, only to a lesser extent. And, but I do
> not have my Basque grammar here, I seem to remember,
> Basque does it too, and Breton.

Perhaps this counts as an independent indication towards an
Asian or Pacific language (independent from the low h2
mentioned by Bennett). When you say  Basque, do you mean
modern Basque, and how would it be different from medieval
Basque? I'm just asking this before I go and interrogate
my Basque colleague over here...

Coming back to the bogus word spaces, Jacques also wrote:

> Yes, just like the spaces between letters in Arabic.

I have a similar feeling, as I also indicated above. Of
course, Arabic has 'real spaces' plus some additional ones.
(I think these additional ones tend to be written with
less space than the real ones but that does not matter
right now). So there are no 'real spaces' which are 'lost',
a feature we may perhaps not exclude in Voynichese.

> Italian distinguishes between open o and close o, open e
> and close e. So, "venti" with a close "e" is "twenty".
> But "venti" with an open "e" is "winds". Ditto "s".
> Sometimes it is pronounced "s", sometimes "z".
> And "z"; sometimes it is pronounced "ts", sometimes "dz"

Absolutely.  And this is only the tip of the iceberg.
Today, Italian is a standardised language. Still, if
the standard prescribes that 'casa' should be pronounced
'caza', in Florence people will say 'Xasa' with a sharp
's' and a very fricative 'h' instead of the 'c'. And Florentine
is the dialect from which modern Italian is derived!
God knows how all this sounded in, say, 1450, let alone
how it would be written.
(Most probably with *more* variation than modern writing,
not *less* as I think we see in the VMs...)

Further comments as always appreciated.

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct 30 11:20:17 1997
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Dennis wondered.

 > But how do we show that it's meaningless?  I can't think
 > of any really good ways.

 No, this may not even be possible. One way I could
 think of is to show that a specific process is capable of
 generating text with the same properties as Voynichese,
 and that this process would be executable by a medieval
 person. It would be a stroke of luck if we achieved this
 though...  And it would not be solid proof, but it would
 be a very strong piece of evidence.

> I know that this is a basic principle of science, but I
> can't quite think of how it's put.  That you can never
> prove a negative?

 It is definitely possible to prove negatives. Maybe this
 isn't quite what you had in mind.
 (It is e.g. possible to prove that pi is not the solution
 of any polynomial with integer coefficients, that you
 cannot construct a square with the same area as a given
 circle, etc. using the theory of an interesting mathematician
 called Galois, whose theory was not understood by the best
 mathematicians until 150 years after his death).
 Hmmm... I somehow doubt that Galois' theory can be
 exploited to prove that the VMs text is not an element
 of the set of meaningful texts....

 > Interesting!  I've also read of Greek being written in
 > Arabic script.

 And, not to forget.... Malay/Indonesian, with its full-word
 repetitions.! (But I certainly don't know if that was also
 the case in the 1400's).
 Better still, this would also explain the infamous 4-.
 This would be se- as in seorang orang. (Just kidding)

 > However, let me ask once again.  In German, a word-final
 > written -ig is pronounced -ik if no vowel follows, either
 > within the word or in a following word, but is pronounced
 > -ig is a vowel follows, again either within the word or
 > in a following word.  Is this true?

 Ah, yes, sorry. Hmmm. It is mostly pronounced -ig or -ich
 depending on the region. This is 'g' like in 'big'.
 Around here it's even more like -isch. The g becoming
 more like a k does happen, in non-TV-presenter's speech
 but it could also almost disappear (become a bit like a j).
 In the lower Rhine area g's are generally pronounced like
 that. (What is big, black, hanging over Cologne? "ein
 janz jrosses Jewitter")
 If immediately followed by a vowel (in the spoken language)
 the (s)ch would mostly become g and the 'k' or 'j' would
 always become a 'g' (I think).
 Your point: it would not depend on whether the vowel is
 in the same word, in a post-fix, or in the next word, but
 only on the time between pronouncing the 'g' and the next
 vowel.

> > [stolfi] As others have pointed out, since the VMs is a "technical"
> > text, it may have a repetitious structure, eg. numbers,
> > lists of dates or ingredients, incantations, etc..
Are we really that sure this is a technical text?
Perhaps in a very broad sense of the word. I'd rather
describe it as natural philosophy. The text in
an  illustrated herbal would not contain many numbers,
but word repetitions could be conceivable.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct 30 11:06:57 1997
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>  
> When asked, does the VMs contain meaningful text? Stolfi and Jacques
> both tended to believe so, and so do I (most of the time, not always :-)).

	And I tend to believe so, too.

> But I disagree that we should not try to test the opposite. That is:
> I think it would be very useful to try and find evidence that the
> text is meaningless, or random. In general,  it would be nice
> to come up with ways to detect meaningless text, 

	But how do we show that it's meaningless?  I can't think of any really
good ways.  

	We could generate "random, meaningless" texts in various fashions.  We
could have the word monkey in MONKEY scramble a normal text.  I have a
computer program that generates language-like gibberish using Turbo
Pascal's random number function and word production rules similar to
Lojban.  

	We could also get naturally-produced but semantically meaningless texts
from various sources.  Glossalalia transcripts would be one.  Books of
spells and incantations would be another.  A. E. Waite's *Book of
Ceremonial Magic* has many spells from Renaissance magic, although these
spells are usually include strings of  pseudo-Latin/Greek/Hebrew words,
palindromes and onomatopoeic words, and snatches of normal
natural-language text.  The Enochian Calls would be another example.  I 
think the Picatrix has incantations.  

	Perhaps Jorge Stolfi could find books of spells that shamans in Brazil
use.  I might be able to get a book of voodoo spells (seriously - voodoo
is still practiced in New Orleans!)  Perhaps someone could get
incantations from one of Toresella's alchemical herbals.  

	In any case, we would have to take these semantically-meaningless texts
and compare them with Voynich texts somehow.  We could generate tables
like Jorge has for English and Portuguese.  We could compare these
subjectively with the Voynich tables.  

	We could use statistical tests such as chi-squared or phi-squared to 
compare the goodness of fit between single-character distribution, 
digraph and trigraph distribution, and word frequency distribution.  
I sure there are other things I haven't thought of.  

	That would tell us something.  However, I still don't think that 
would quite be a test of "meaninglessness".  

	Consider the story of the Shroud of Turin.  How could so much work and
scientific testing have been expended on this object before scientists 
showed that it is a painting?  Perhaps because researchers at first 
assumed it was of supernatural origin and found all sorts of things 
they thought could not be explained by normal, natural law.  If they 
had assumed a natural explanation to begin with and then tried to 
test that hypothesis, they would have proven it a hoax or a 
painting much sooner.  

	I know that this is a basic principle of science, but I can't 
quite think of how it's put.  That you can never prove a negative?

> Fully agreed. This is what I also argued before, on the basis of
> the resources required. This does not, however, mean that the
> contents are meaningful.  

	Yes.  A book of incantations might not be semantically meaningful. 
Note Toresella's remark on the texts in the alchemical herbals:

        "The recipes found in the alchemical herbals are often 
absurb and irrational: spells to become invisible or to find 
hidden treasures and are accompanied by incantations and 
invocations for the most part pious, but also including some 
to evil spirits, including the famous magical
quatrain Sator Arepo Tenet Opera Rotas or the more modest
Abracadabra." (p. 57)

> Just that the writer(s) were quite
> serious, and purposeful as you say, about what they were doing.
> Whether Dee, Kelly were inclined to do this to get some
> hard money out of Rudolph, I don't know. But I think they were
> totally capable of it.

	Once again, the original aothors might not have been thinking 
about money, even if Dee and Kelly did subsequently sell it to Rudolph
II 
for 600 gold ducats.  

> And with a pile of books from Lull, picking words at random,
> the (almost) consistent statistical properties of the text could
> result. It did *not* take a computer to detect the oddities.

> [Jorge Stolfi] This random word-pairing trick seems to be pretty 
> much the essence of Ramon Llull's philosophical system.  
> 
> He was a 13th century Catalan scholar, somewhat on the
> eccentric-obsessive side (-8 just the type of person who might have
> written the VMs 8-). He apparently filled whole books with exhaustive
> enumerations of word pairs and their philosophical interpretations.

	I didn't know about the enumerations of word pairs.  Of course, the
works of Dr. John Dee and other Renaissance esotericists have all sorts
of tables of mystical correspondences.  These might be random to our
modern eyes, but these Renaissance thinkers were looking for relations
between natural phenomena.  Have a look at "Synchronicity" by C. G.
Jung.  

> One of his books even had moveable paper wheels (the earliest known
> instance of such devices) to help the reader generate word pairs by 
> himself.

	Yes, again to find mystical correspondences.  Also somewhat like a
Vigenere cipher wheel.  BTW, Lull also invented an artificial language. 
Robert Firth has more details.  

>  > [stolfi] ..the distribution of words, and in particular of
> > labels, shows clustering and sectional dependencies of
> > the sort one expects in meaningful text, and which would
> > be hard to explain otherwise.
> 
> I certainly hope it's true. I think some quantitative
> test of this is required, especially compared with readable
> text. 

	See my remarks above.  

>     >> [rene] Now to the  VMs. Do we see different statistics of character pairs
>     >> inside words or accross word boundaries?
> > [stolfi] Yes we do, and in fact the differences are so great that we
> > could reproduce most of the word breaks by looking at two
> > consecutive characters at a time.
> 
> Which is totally unlike any language I know of, with the one
> big exception of Arabic. Here I should say: the Arabic script,
> because this is obviously used for many languages.  Even
> Portuguese has for a while been written in the Arabic script.
> I have a sample at home of Portuguese transcribed from the
> Arabic script, and I presume it will have different
> properties from the original text (had it originally been
> written in the Roman alphabet).

	Interesting!  I've also read of Greek being written in Arabic script. 
Whether vowels were written or not would obviously make a big
difference. 

	However, let me ask once again.  In German, a word-final written -ig is
pronounced -ik if no vowel follows, either within the word or in a
following word, but is pronounced -ig is a vowel follows, again either
within the word or in a following word.  Is this true?  

> > [stolfi] As others have pointed out, since the VMs is a "technical"
> > text, it may have a repetitious structure, eg. numbers,
> > lists of dates or ingredients, incantations, etc..
> 
> But do known readable texts of this nature display similar
> properties? Looking through the library catalogues found
> at the 'Alchemy' web site, many alchemical Mss end with
> sections containing 'recipes'. I'd love to have a sample of
> those...(for text analysis purposes, I hasten to add :-) ).

	Here are some numbers I posted earlier this year:

               #      Chars                                      (h1-h2)
File           of      in                                          /h1
Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2   *100
-----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------

crane.txt       27    32000    4.755    4.073    3.247    0.826    20.3
litany1.txt     26     9492    4.700    4.071    3.103    0.968    23.8

voyas.eva       21    12218    4.392    3.802    1.990    1.812    47.7
voyb.eva        21    16061    4.392    3.859    2.081    1.778    46.1


Catholic Litany, http://www.catholic.org/prayer/litsts.html
litany1.txt

The Blue Hotel, by Stephen Crane
crane.txt

voyas.eva - sample of Voynich Herbal-A in EVA
voyb.eva -  sample of Voynich Herbal-B in EVA

(I chose EVA because the h1 values were closest to the English ones.)

	Compare the statistics of the non-repetitious Stephen Crane short story
to the repetitious Catholic litany.  The difference here is *much*
smaller than that between either English text and the Voynich texts.  

	Of course, entropy is only one statistic, and both Jacques and 
I think it's of only limited usefulness.  

	(I'm working on a paper summarizing my entropy work to put on 
my Web site.  I've been ill a lot over the last several months, so it's
been 
slow going.)  

[many good ideas on quantification snipped.]

> > The deviations from randomness seem significant, but nowhere
> > as strongs as those for English[2] or Portuguese[3].
> 
> Yes, this is the problem which led me to my original post.
> How can we quantify this? (I'm an engineer, you see :-) )

	And so am I :-).  That's also why I'd like to formulate a hypothesis
specific enough to be tested.  If the VMs originated in northern Italy,
then Latin, an Italian dialect, or a French dialect would be good
candidates for the underlying language.  And all of these are Romance
languages.  All that should help with statistical analysis.  

	Incidentally, even at that time French was the lingua franca of the
European upper classes; Marco Polo wrote his story in French.  What
dialect of French was used for this purpose (upper-class
communication)?  
 
> > [Jacques] Those alliterative pairs reek to high heaven of what a
> > great many real languages do. Balinese is riddled with them.
> > Bahasa Indonesia too, only to a lesser extent. And, but I do
> > not have my Basque grammar here, I seem to remember,
> > Basque does it too, and Breton.

	Interesting!  I know that Bahasa Indonesia indicates the noun 
plural by doubling the noun.  "Orang" (man) becomes "orang orang" (men); 
"orang orang" is written "orang2".   But what about Basque and Breton 
(and Breton is an Indo-European language)?  Do they double nouns 
for emphasis, perhaps?  

> Absolutely.  And this is only the tip of the iceberg.
> Today, Italian is a standardised language. Still, if
> the standard prescribes that 'casa' should be pronounced
> 'caza', in Florence people will say 'Xasa' with a sharp
> 's' and a very fricative 'h' instead of the 'c'. And Florentine
> is the dialect from which modern Italian is derived!
> God knows how all this sounded in, say, 1450, let alone
> how it would be written.
> (Most probably with *more* variation than modern writing,
> not *less* as I think we see in the VMs...)

	Yes.  Spelling of all languages except Latin was much less standardized
than today.  And, then as now, significant features of the spoken
language were left out of writing.  I did a little work on the entropy
of a reduced orthography for Latin.  

	Hope all this helps.

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Oct 30 20:02:22 1997
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From: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:54:41 +0800
Subject: Possibly meaningful thoughts
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Hi again

yes, my, what a lot of messages.

Does the VMs contain meaningful text?  Of course it
does - that's an article of the faith - et quicunque aliter
dicit, ANATHEMA SIT!!  (Recipe #666 in the herbal
section - taken on Hallowe'en it turns you into a
fundamentalist)

Unfortunately, most of the evidence to prove this is also
evidence in support of the alternative hypothesis that
the Ms is a forgery, since a competent forger would know
of such evidence and take care to introduce it.  So we are
driven to rely on "evidence" no contemporary forger could
have known to fabricate, which is very dangerous ground
indeed.

I admit that the fakeness of the Ossian forgeries was indeed
so detected, and the supposed corpus of Provencal love
songs all the details of which I forget - but there the problem
was the content of the text, not its entropy.  Same with the Book
of Mormon.

More random thoughts.  The supposed free word order of latin
is largely mythical.  Mediaeval latin shows an almost fixed word
order - check eg the Carmina Burana - and we're pretty sure this
was the case with colloquial latin in the late classical period.  The
variable word order is found mostly in the higly stylised latin
of orators and poets.  In classical oratory, for instance, the
convention is that the later a word occurs in a sentence, the
more emphasis it has.  Almost the opposite of English.

As to German -ig, that's North german, and I believe, but am not
sure, that it doesn't cross sentence boundaries.  In the dialect
I speak, it's approximately "-ich" in all cases.  Concerning arabic,
in classical arabic the changes in pronunciation are indeed
reflected in the spelling: one writes "ash-Shams", "ad-Din" &c.
Also, a pervasive feature of arabic poetry is the repetition of
the same triliteral root with varying, related meanings, which if
the vowels are ignored does seem like true repitition.

I'm also reminded of liturgical text.  In the Western christian cult.
for instance, you'd see "gratia plena". "omnia saecula", "saecula
saeculorum", and so on and so on, far more that the joint word
probabilities would suggest.

So, to me, the strongest evidence for the presence of meaning is
none of the above, but rather the discernable differences in vocabulary
and style between astronomical and herbal sections.  Almost as if
there was a prior corpus with two different books, that got transacribed
and bound together.

Happy hallowe'en
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 03:14:11 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:09:51 +0200
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There is also the opposite way of looking at the question:
Right now, the text of the VMs is meaningless,
because nobody knows what it means. What we're
trying to find out is whether it can or cannot ever
be converted into something meaningful.

Yesterday, when Malay was mentioned in two
contexts, I did not realise just how many features
Malay written in an Arabic script would have in
common with Voynichese.
The prefixes and suffixes, the short words,
the full-word repetitions, the absense of repeated
characters.

Of course there is the major objection that the VMs
is almost certainly of European origin, but plenty of
scenarios could be imagined to explain this
connection. They would require contact between
Europeans and Malaisians prior to, say, 1450 and
preferably presence of  Malaisians in Europe at the
time. Perhaps someone thought this would make a
great 'secret language'. Is there evidence that this
could not have happened??

Still, this does not help at all in answering the
question why there are strange flowers and
mysterious cosmological patterns in the Ms.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 09:50:16 1997
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Dennis wrote:

 > Many magical spells contain long passages of nonsense words.
> Of course, they're not completely nonsense.  In Renaissance magic,
 > the nonsense words are distorted Greek or Hebrew (?Arabic)
 > names of divinities.  These words evoke a sense of awe and mystery.

 But we're hoping, and thinking, I think, that there's more to
 the  VMs than just 'long passages of nonsense words (LPNW)'.
 With a small effort to set up a really pronouncible
 translitteration, we can already turn the VMs into
 LPNW. This is closer to 'meaningless' than to meaningful,
 IMHO. Of course, if we found distorted Greek or Hebrew
 names, we'd know we'd found it....

 > Couldn't the differences in vocabulary and style between the
> astronomical and herbal sections be due to the differing
 > subject matter?

 Very unlikely. Just remember that Herbal-A and
 Herbal-B have presumably the same subject-matter, yet
 are very different in style. Or put the other way around:
 (ob-smiley omitted)

 Theorem 1: if the differences are due to subject-matter,
            then the pictures do not belong with the text.

 And this leads to another important theorem:

 Theorem 2: if the differences are due to subject-matter,
            then the person who collated the pages, bound the
            Ms and numbered it *could not read* the VMs.

 Proof:     He went by the pictures.


 I would favour the 'different dialect' explanation.
 Note that subject-matter-related differences may still
 be identified, but I expect them to be of a smaller
 scale than the A-vs-B differences.

 Cheers Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 09:56:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:57:03 -0800
From: Adams Douglas <adamsd@crash.cts.com>
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In line with what Dennis just posted (sorry, I blew the quoting
operation this time), I was thinking about the continuum of "meaning"
where you have the envelope defined by glossolalia and aphasias at one
end and, say, the OED at the other. There's this fuzzy middle ground
where you can fit a large spectrum of "nonsense" which contains
everything from _Jabberwocky_ to the liturgical chants Dennis was
describing where nonsense words were inserted for their sounds.

It's the latter that interests me right now because I've been listening
to the _Adiemus_ albums. Composer Karl Jenkins writes lyrics for his
vocalists which he states is "an invented language." But other sources
confirm he hasn't any thought of "meaning" behind the language, but
writes the syllables because of the way they sound. Combined with the
music, the "words" have a remarkably realistic tribal chant feel. And
you _do_ feel there is meaning in what is being sung. And there is
musical meaning, but not linguistic meaning. Incidentally, the music is
great!

He doesn't print the "lyrics" in the album notes, so it would be an
effort to do a statistical analysis on them, especially since there's no
clue as to what a "word" is. As a quick sample, here's my best shot at a
by-ear transcription of some unique verses from track 9 of _Adiemus_2 -
_Cantata_Mundi_, "Song of the Plains". I've inserted the word breaks by
the pattern and emphasis of the vocals:

    oh ba makaba
    ahlapu iraku ba

    umaku mamama mamakea
    araka mama mamama mamakea
    aramakum iki aramakum aya oh

    amatu amasa kara
    amatu amasa kara
    amatu amasa kalama
    amasa malama malam

    [this one's partial, the singers are hard to make out]
    aruka marabe darumkabane
    aru mankana mane
    aru mase maradu ramase
    maladu ramase maladu rama
    durana mala du
    durana mala
    durana mata matu

It's certainly interesting contemplating concepts of linguistic meaning
while listening to this stuff.

-Adams

P.S. If you've seen the Delta airlines commercial showing people
attaching messages to balloons, the music behind that is track 1 of the
first album _Adiemus_.





From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 08:02:40 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 
> There is also the opposite way of looking at the question:
> Right now, the text of the VMs is meaningless,
> because nobody knows what it means. What we're
> trying to find out is whether it can or cannot ever
> be converted into something meaningful.

	Yes.  I like your earlier note on how we might show it was meaningless:

>  One way I could
>  think of is to show that a specific process is capable of
>  generating text with the same properties as Voynichese,
>  and that this process would be executable by a medieval
>  person. It would be a stroke of luck if we achieved this
>  though...  And it would not be solid proof, but it would
>  be a very strong piece of evidence.

	Another way would be if theoretical linguistics has or would develop
some test of whether text is meaningful or not.   Jacques' work on a
better measure of linguistic order vs. chaos is a step in that
direction.  

	I looked at a book I have that discusses the Shroud of Turin problem. 
Most of the Shroud researchers initially assumed a supernatural
hypothesis, ie. that the Shroud of Turin was the authentic burial cloth
of Jesus Christ and that the image on it was produced by supernatural
means.  Call that the supernatural hypothesis.  They did many tests and
when those failed to show a "natural" explanation, they accepted the
supernatural hypothesis by default.  

	One obvious problem with that is that they did not by any means
consider all possible "natural" hypotheses.  For instance, they did not
do chemical analyses for paint pigments (sound familiar?  :-)  ).  One
researcher took sticky-tape samples and found iron and mercury typical
of paint pigments.  Another researcher examined the Shroud under an
ordinary optical microscope (!) and saw particles of common paint
pigments.  And, of course, the radiocarbon analyses ultimately clinched
it.  

	(Incidentally -- on the EVMT Web page, I think it says that radiocarbon
dating is unreliable back to 1500.  However, the 'humanist hand' would
date the VMs to the 1400's.  FWIW.)

	Another problem is that there is no way to prove a "supernatural"
origin for anything.  It's a default explanation, used when no "natural"
mechanism can be found.  We're in somewhat the same position.   Beyond
the things we've mentioned, we 
have no way of proving that the VMs is gibberish.  

> Yesterday, when Malay was mentioned in two
> contexts, I did not realise just how many features
> Malay written in an Arabic script would have in
> common with Voynichese.
> The prefixes and suffixes, the short words,
> the full-word repetitions, the absense of repeated
> characters.

	Jacques discussed the Jawi (Arabic) script used for Malay in the
Voylist archives.  Jawi does represent vowels, but in a complex manner. 

	However, I think you would see the same thing with Malay even in Latin
orthography.  And I'm pretty sure Malay would be a low-entropy
language.  It's in the Malayo-Polynesian group, and visually it looks
low-entropy.  

> Of course there is the major objection that the VMs
> is almost certainly of European origin, but plenty of
> scenarios could be imagined to explain this
> connection. They would require contact between
> Europeans and Malaisians prior to, say, 1450 and
> preferably presence of  Malaisians in Europe at the
> time. Perhaps someone thought this would make a
> great 'secret language'. Is there evidence that this
> could not have happened??

	Who knows?  There's Jacques
Chinese-or-Mongolians-returning-with-Marco-Polo theory.  Just make that
Malaysians.  There was also Bob Richmond's theory of a Spanish
missionary in the Phillipines in the 1500's.  There's a
Malayo-Polynesian language again.  :-)  Seriously -- I doubt that
there's evidence that this *couldn't* have happened -- although perhaps
evidence that it's very unlikely.  

> Still, this does not help at all in answering the
> question why there are strange flowers and
> mysterious cosmological patterns in the Ms.

	Outsider art -- although that's begging the question.  There are the
alchemical herbals.  I'm interested in Rayman Maleki's theory that the 
astrology in the VMs may be lunar astrology.  

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 08:32:16 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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robertjf wrote:
> 
> Does the VMs contain meaningful text?  Of course it
> does - that's an article of the faith - et quicunque aliter
> dicit, ANATHEMA SIT!!  (Recipe #666 in the herbal
> section - taken on Hallowe'en it turns you into a
> fundamentalist)

	Egad -- I didn't know they celebrated Hallowe'en in .sg!  ;-)  
Since it's Hallowe'en here, here's a spell from one of Toresella's 
alchemical herbals, about the herb 'ghalias retiuola':

>     'Whoever has anointed his hands with the lotion of this herb, then
> touched whomever he wanted, would obtain from that person any favour
> that he might like.
> 
>     'And in that way he would obtain much friendship.
> 
>     'And he would cause peace and concord between enemies.
> 
>     'And he who would wash himself with it would drive away the thief
> from within himself.'"

	"... would drive away the thief from within himself."  How 
interesting -- it's certainly not an evil spell.  

> Unfortunately, most of the evidence to prove this is also
> evidence in support of the alternative hypothesis that
> the Ms is a forgery, since a competent forger would know
> of such evidence and take care to introduce it.  So we are
> driven to rely on "evidence" no contemporary forger could
> have known to fabricate, which is very dangerous ground
> indeed.

	The VMs might be semantically meaningless to us, but not a deliberate
forgery.  Many magical spells contain long passages of nonsense words. 
Of course, they're not completely nonsense.  In Renaissance magic, the
nonsense words are distorted Greek or Hebrew (?Arabic) names of
divinities.  These words evoke a sense of awe and mystery.  

> I admit that the fakeness of the Ossian forgeries was indeed
> so detected, and the supposed corpus of Provencal love
> songs all the details of which I forget - but there the problem
> was the content of the text, not its entropy.  Same with the Book
> of Mormon.

	I'm not familiar with the details here.  However, I assume the Ossianic
forgeries contained anachronisms of language (like Strong's VMs
decipherments).  The three cases you mention also probably contained
contradictions of known historical fact (like Levitov's VMs
decipherments).  

	As you might recall, I calculated the entropies of Book of Mormon
extracts, and found them notably lower than other examples of
Elizabethan English.  Which confirms what reviewers have said since the
BOM was first published -- that it's very repetitious.  The method of
decipherment may have something to do with this.  ;-)

> More random thoughts.  The supposed free word order of latin
> is largely mythical.  Mediaeval latin shows an almost fixed word
> order - check eg the Carmina Burana - and we're pretty sure this
> was the case with colloquial latin in the late classical period.  The
> variable word order is found mostly in the higly stylised latin
> of orators and poets.  In classical oratory, for instance, the
> convention is that the later a word occurs in a sentence, the
> more emphasis it has.  Almost the opposite of English.

	Thanks for telling us about this!  My linguistics prof told me that
even languages with a relatively free word order (the modern Slavic
languages, as well as classical Latin and Greek) have an "unmarked"
(neutral) word order.  As you note, a change from the unmarked word
order means that something is being emphasized.  

> As to German -ig, that's North german, and I believe, but am not
> sure, that it doesn't cross sentence boundaries.  In the dialect
> I speak, it's approximately "-ich" in all cases.  Concerning arabic,
> in classical arabic the changes in pronunciation are indeed
> reflected in the spelling: one writes "ash-Shams", "ad-Din" &c.

	Good point!   

> Also, a pervasive feature of arabic poetry is the repetition of
> the same triliteral root with varying, related meanings, which if
> the vowels are ignored does seem like true repitition.

	Jacques noted that the same thing is done in Hebrew.  

> I'm also reminded of liturgical text.  In the Western christian cult.
> for instance, you'd see "gratia plena". "omnia saecula", "saecula
> saeculorum", and so on and so on, far more that the joint word
> probabilities would suggest.

	See the entropy data I posted on a Roman Catholic litany vs. a short
story.  That kind of repetition could well account for some of the
repeated words in VMs text, but could not account for the overall low h2
of Voynichese.  

> So, to me, the strongest evidence for the presence of meaning is
> none of the above, but rather the discernable differences in vocabulary
> and style between astronomical and herbal sections.  Almost as if
> there was a prior corpus with two different books, that got transacribed
> and bound together.

	Couldn't the differences in vocabulary and style between the
astronomical and herbal sections be due to the differing subject
matter?  This is something we could test for.  We could take known
medieval Latin texts on astrology/astronomy and herbs and compare the
distributions of words, single characters, digraphs & trigraphs, etc. 
Then see how those differences compare with those seen in the VMs.   

Happy Hallowe'en, Toussaint, Dio de los Muertos, etc.  
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 12:23:10 1997
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Subject: Re: Sense in deliberate nonsense and the music of _Adiemus_
To: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:16:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <345A1B88.4DA1@micro-net.com> from "Dennis" at Oct 31, 97 09:55:20 am
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> 	Yup.  Pidgin languages (not necessarily creole languages) also would 
> fit in the fuzzy middle ground.  It would be interesting to analyze some 
> transcriptions of pidgin.  

It would indeed. Any out there?

> 	Just for fun, I ran MONKEY on the text Adams gave.  Here are 
> the results:
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
>                #      Chars                                      (h1-h2)
> File           of      in                                          /h1
> Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2   *100
> -----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------
> adiemus.txt     18      311    4.170    3.146    1.880    1.266    40.2
...
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> 	Thus, the h2 statistics approach those of Voynichese.  
> Of course, it's a very small sample of text compared to the other texts 
> examined.

Yes, I may take a stab at a few more verses from other cuts this weekend.
Also, there is a fan website I found which has the _official_ lyrics of the
hit from the first album (from a published piano score), which I should
probably check against my own transcriptions. 

But, yes, if we build a statistical base of different categories of
nonsense words we certainly will have interesting stuff to compare with the
VMs. Obviously we can never _prove_ it's gibberish or nonsense by without
external evidence, but it can certainly affect our approach.

Besides, there were people who said Fermat's Last Theorem would never be
solved, either (yes, yes, I know the proof is different than he could have
done).
-Adams


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 11:02:16 1997
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Adams Douglas wrote:
> 
> In line with what Dennis just posted (sorry, I blew the quoting
> operation this time), I was thinking about the continuum of "meaning"
> where you have the envelope defined by glossolalia and aphasias at one
> end and, say, the OED at the other. There's this fuzzy middle ground
> where you can fit a large spectrum of "nonsense" which contains
> everything from _Jabberwocky_ to the liturgical chants Dennis was
> describing where nonsense words were inserted for their sounds.

	Yup.  Pidgin languages (not necessarily creole languages) also would 
fit in the fuzzy middle ground.  It would be interesting to analyze some 
transcriptions of pidgin.  

> It's the latter that interests me right now because I've been listening
> to the _Adiemus_ albums. Composer Karl Jenkins writes lyrics for his
> vocalists which he states is "an invented language." But other sources
> confirm he hasn't any thought of "meaning" behind the language, but
> writes the syllables because of the way they sound. Combined with the
> music, the "words" have a remarkably realistic tribal chant feel. And
> you _do_ feel there is meaning in what is being sung. And there is
> musical meaning, but not linguistic meaning. Incidentally, the music is
> great!

	Just for fun, I ran MONKEY on the text Adams gave.  Here are 
the results:
________________________________________________________________________

               #      Chars                                      (h1-h2)
File           of      in                                          /h1
Name         chars    File       h0      h1       h2      h1-h2   *100
-----------  -----   ------    -----    -----    -----   ------  ------
adiemus.txt     18      311    4.170    3.146    1.880    1.266    40.2

crane.txt       27    32000    4.755    4.073    3.247    0.826    20.3
litany1.txt     26     9492    4.700    4.071    3.103    0.968    23.8

voyas.eva       21    12218    4.392    3.802    1.990    1.812    47.7
voyb.eva        21    16061    4.392    3.859    2.081    1.778    46.1


Catholic Litany, http://www.catholic.org/prayer/litsts.html
litany1.txt

The Blue Hotel, by Stephen Crane
crane.txt

voyas.eva - sample of Voynich Herbal-A in EVA
voyb.eva -  sample of Voynich Herbal-B in EVA

Karl Jenkins; track 9 of _Adiemus_2 - _Cantata_Mundi_, 
"Song of the Plains" 
(transcribed by Adams Douglas <adamsd@crash.cts.com> )
adiemus.txt  

_________________________________________________________

	Thus, the h2 statistics approach those of Voynichese.  
Of course, it's a very small sample of text compared to the other texts 
examined.

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 14:23:07 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:17:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel M Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Voynich Questions
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	Hello everyone.  My name is Daniel Harms, and I'm writing
an article on the Voynich Manuscript.  I've tracked down what information
I can find on the Internet and found Brumbaugh's book, but I was
wondering if someone could help me out with some of the details, as
some information is missing or contradictory.

1)  When did King Ruldolph II buy the manuscript.  Did de Tepenecz own
the MS. before or after the king?

2)  How many pages is the MS.?

3)  Was the MS. at any time (possibly during Kraus' ownership) kept
at the University of Pennsylvania?

	Any help would be appreciated.

Yrs.,

Daniel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 15:32:10 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:20:37 -0800
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
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I did my ever-so-infrequent add/purge of the mailing list, and
we have a handful of new members.  This would be a good time to
post an update of your relevant Web pages and recent research,
and for the new members to introduce themselves and their interests
if they're so inclined.

As a reminder, I've moved away from Rand and still haven't been
able to get the list switched to my new home (administrative
problems -- the majordomo is ready to get turned on after all
the firewall issues have been addressed, but no likelihood that
this will happen soon).  Upshot: if you need fairly prompt
service for list removal, best to write to jim@acm.org.  "Fairly
prompt" might be a couple of weeks, but since this isn't a really
high volume list I don't feel terribly guilty yet. :)

Another note: when addresses start bouncing I remove them from
the list.  If you don't receive mail for a while, it may be because
your machine and Rand weren't talking for a week or more.  Feel
free to send email to jim@acm.org if you're concerned that there
hasn't been enough traffic lately.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 15:26:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:29:08 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: meaningful text
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G'Day.

I'm new to this list so I'd better introduce myself.

I'm Mik Clarke, I'm a computer programmer and have a passing interest in problems,
languages, cryptography and occult role playing (which was how I found this
group).  I'm sure I'll say a few things that have been said before, sorry.

Dennis wrote:

> rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
>
>         Yes.  I like your earlier note on how we might show it was meaningless:
>
> >  One way I could
> >  think of is to show that a specific process is capable of
> >  generating text with the same properties as Voynichese,
> >  and that this process would be executable by a medieval
> >  person. It would be a stroke of luck if we achieved this
> >  though...  And it would not be solid proof, but it would
> >  be a very strong piece of evidence.
>
>         Another way would be if theoretical linguistics has or would develop
> some test of whether text is meaningful or not.   Jacques' work on a
> better measure of linguistic order vs. chaos is a step in that
> direction.

Given a hat and enough bits of paper I can produce text with almost any statistical
distribution you desire. Basically you write the character, words or phrases on a
number of bits of paper according to the frequency that you desire for it. Then
draw at random and record. If you take a big enough sample the distribution will be
very close to that of the bits of paper. normally this would be computerized, but
it could be done (slowly) by hand.

 Mik

--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 15:41:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:35:17 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Greetings, Daniel!  I'll answer what I can, and let the others add and
correct accordingly. 
> 
> 1)  When did King Ruldolph II buy the manuscript.  Did de Tepenecz own
> the MS. before or after the king?

	De Tepenecz never owned the VMs. Jacobus de Tepenecz was the director
of Rudolph's botanical gardens.  His signature is present in folio 1r
(visible only under IR light).   Since de Tepenecz received the patent
of nobility in 1608, he must have signed it on or after that date.  

	It is not known when Rudolph II bought the VMs.  

	It is fairly well accepted, although by no means certain, 
that the folio numbers on the VMs are in Dr. John Dee's handwriting. 
See

gopher://yaleinfo.yale.edu:7700/00/YaleLibraries/Beinecke/manu/Beinpre/ms400-.gen

	A letter about Dee's son, Arthur Dee, notes "That this transmutation 
was made by a powder they [Dee and Kelley] had, which was found in some 
old place, and a book lying by it containing nothing but hieroglyphicks; 
which book his father bestowed much time upon, but I could not 
hear that he could make it out."  This "book of hieroglyphics" might 
have been the VMs.
	
	Dr. Dee was at Rudolph II's court from 1582-86.  If one accepts from
the items above that he had the VMs in his possession, then Dee might
have been the one who sold the VMs to Rudolph II.  However, many list
members are very familiar with Dee's papers, and they have found no
definite indication of this whatsoever.  

> 2)  How many pages is the MS.?

	About 235 pages.  However, a definite pagination is difficult, since
there are some foldouts and some pages are missing.  For the definitive
listing, see

http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/checklist.txt

Also see Yale's entry, noted above:

gopher://yaleinfo.yale.edu:7700/00/YaleLibraries/Beinecke/manu/Beinpre/ms400-.gen

> 3)  Was the MS. at any time (possibly during Kraus' ownership) kept
> at the University of Pennsylvania?

	I don't know the answer to this.  Mary D'Imperio's *The Voynich
Manuscript: An Elegant Enigma* probably has this.  

	Most of what I've said came from:

http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 16:44:11 1997
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In response to Jim G.'s note, here's a brief intro.  I'm a 
chemical engineer who works for a state environmental regulatory 
agency in the USA.  However, I'm an avid amateur linguist.  I've 
worked in Europe for a total of about a year, know French well, Latin 
poorly, and smatterings of various other languages.   A long time ago 
I studied cryptology.  I'm interested in history.  So I fit in well 
here!  ;-)  I've been active for a little over a year.  
    
    My VMs Web page - 
http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voynich.htm 
    
    My Voynich Manuscript mini-FAQ, which might interest newcomers:
http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voymfq.htm
 
    I think my main contribution to date is some work on applying the 
entropy concept to the study of the VMs.   William Ralph Bennett first 
applied the entropy concept in his *Scientific and Engineering Problem 
Solving with the Computer* (Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1976). 
His book has introduced many people to the VMs.  
    
    The repetitive nature of VMs text is obvious to casual 
examination.  Entropy is one possible numerical measure of a text's 
repetitiousness.  The higher the text's repetitiousness, the lower the 
second-order entropy (information carried in letter pairs).  Bennett 
noted that only some Polynesian languages have second-order entropies 
as low as VMs text.  But an underlying Polynesian language would not 
square with the generally European provenience of the VMs.   
    
    However, I've shown that a verbose cipher can turn any ordinary 
text into one with Voynich-like second-order entropies.  Substitutions 
like:

    a   --> a 
    b   --> bqbababa 
    c  -->  c 
    d  -->  dqdede 
    e  -->  e 
    f  -->  fqfififi 
    g  -->  gqgogogo 

    etc.

turn an ordinary Latin text into a text with a second-order entropy as 
low as VMs text.  However, this cipher does not have the "look and 
feel" of the VMs.  I'm trying to develop one that does.  
    
    I've compared the entropy of a known repetitive text (for 
instance, a Roman Catholic litany) with a known, non-repetitive text 
(for instance, a short story).  The difference in entropy observed 
between these two is not nearly as great as that between Voynich text 
and any normal European language.  So repetitive subject matter or 
structure would not explain all of what we see.  
    
Dennis

From reeds Fri Oct 31 22:30:02 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9710312230.ZM22459@research.att.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:30:01 -0500
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Re: Voynich Questions" (Oct 31, 14:35)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971031141207.21137C-100000@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu> 
	<345A5D25.4D15@micro-net.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: Daniel M Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: Voynich Questions
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Status: OR

On Oct 31, 14:35, Dennis wrote  (in answer to Daniel's questions):



> > 3)  Was the MS. at any time (possibly during Kraus' ownership) kept
> > at the University of Pennsylvania?
> 
> 	I don't know the answer to this.  Mary D'Imperio's *The Voynich
> Manuscript: An Elegant Enigma* probably has this.  
> 

Was the VMS at the U of P?  Almost certainly not.  Kraus would have kept the book
in his own shop.  His autobiography does not mention it.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 05:08:07 1997
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Message-ID: <345AFE89.6A@study.club.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 19:03:53 +0900
From: Takeshi Takahashi <voynich@study.club.or.jp>
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Hello, My name is Takeshi Takahashi.
I subscribed Voynich mailing list at the first time yesterday as a new
member.
I am very happy to join you.
I'm sorry I am not good at English, so I can't contribute to yet.

I have a web page of VMS in Japan.
(In Japan, Voynich Ms is not well known.There is only one site in
Japan.)
http://www3.justnet.ne.jp/~ttakahashike/voynich/index.htm
If your browser is supported Japanese, please visit and check it out.

Best wishes,
Takeshi Takahashi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 11:26:08 1997
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Message-ID: <345B588D.A2359D3A@crash.cts.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:27:58 -0800
From: Adams Douglas <adamsd@crash.cts.com>
Reply-To: adamsd@crash.cts.com
Organization: Dicon
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Status: OR

For the benefit of the new people, my name is Adams Douglas. I've been
on the Voynich list about three years, but have been interested in it
when I first read about it in David Kahn's _The_Codebreakers_ way back
in the late 1960's. I didn't get to find out more until I found out
about the Voynich maillist in the early 90's.

Although I'm not skilled in any other language but English, I love
linguistics and language theory. I know a little Russian, and am
fascinated by other writing systems than the Roman alphabet; I spent
quite a while in college teaching myself to write in a form of J.R.R.
Tolkien's invented Elvish script. I like codes and ciphers, but have
never done cryptology professionally, but I'm really in love with number
theory. I'm also a space buff, an amateur astronomer, and particularly
interested in archaeoastonomy. I am involved with the Association of
Amateur Scientists and the Great Internet Prime Search.

I'm a software developer, currently developing medical data-analysis
software for an opthamological equipment firm. I spent 7 years in the
1980s working on the upgrade of the Deep Space Network at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, which involved a lot of study about information
theory and error-correction, this correlates with my interests in
cryptology and writing systems.

I personally feel that the Voynich Manuscript is not an encrypted
document. I believe it is a shorthand for some European or Middle
Eastern language, although I would be less surprised to find it was some
other language than not some sort of shorthand. I think it it's entropy
is explained by it being a shorthand optimized for a particular
discipline. I believe it was written to be read--not deciphered--and
that it was written by scribes who were used to the script, or perhaps
by the same person in two sessions separated by a lot of time. This is
my current thought about the A and B systems.

My contribution to the VMs project so far is basically in ideas and in
any archaeoastronomical questions that arise. I can also provide
computer power to other general statistical questions when the need
arises and software is available.

I have no Voynich stuff on my home page as yet, but you can see me and
my home site at:

    http://www.free.cts.com/crash/a/adamsd/

My PGP Key is available at:

    ftp://ftp.cts.com/pub/adamsd/pgpkey.txt

==============================================================
Adams Douglas
Dicon, Inc.
San Diego, CA USA




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 14:02:09 1997
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From: Daniel Harms <dmharms@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Introductions
Status: OR

     My name's Daniel Harms, and I'm a graduate
student in anthropology at SUNY at Buffalo.  I'm
here because I'm interested in the most mysterious
imaginary/real manuscript of this century -- the
Necronomicon.  Some authors (such as Colin Wilson)
have linked the Voynich manuscript with the 
Necronomicon, and various rumors about this 
continue to circulate.  Even though I think they're
a lot of hooey, I feel that it would be helpful to
keep myself informed on what is going on with the
Voynich Ms. so I can answer those who have questions.

Yrs.,

Daniel Harms             |   "...fie on the immortality of
dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu |  cast-iron lawn deer!"
                         |             -- H. P. Lovecraft

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 15:05:09 1997
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From: "Gabriel Sala Calvet" <gsala@interplanet.es>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: HI, com anem nois!
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:59:57 +0100
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Gabriel Sala Calvet
E-mail: <gsala@interplanet.es>
Hi everybody, 
My name is Gabriel Sala and I work as a lawyer, :-(. I love cryptography,
logic problems  and so... The VM has always been knocking some hidden door
inside my mind since I read The Codebreakers when I was a teenager
(original, ain't it?). I am skilled in spanish and catalan, know some
english, italian, a little latin...
I just wonder what will we all do when one of us will e-mail the VM's
solution to the others??
And a final suspicion: Has anybody thought that maybe someone inside the
group, I don't want to mention names, made up the VM???? :-)

Bye!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 15:47:09 1997
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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 21:54:13 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Possibly meaningful thoughts
References: <C1256541.004A87D0.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> <345BAB0E.3EE5@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Jacques Guy wrote:

> Quha wait gif all that Chauceir wrait was trew?
> Nor I wait nocht gif this narratioun
> Be authoreist, or fenyeit of the new
> Be sum Poeit, throw his Inventioun,
> Maid to report the Lamentatioun
> And wofull end to this lustie Creisseid,
> And quhat distres scho thoillit, and quhat deid.
>
>  --Robert Henryson, 15th-century Scottish "makar"
>
> That was posted on the Conlang (CONstructed LANGuage)
> interest list yesterday. Think about it. About how
> Scots pronunciation is represented in spelling.
> How divergent the spelling is likely to be from one
> author to the next, even within one author's work.
> I won't say more.

Hmmm. I've just started doing some analysis of the document, using the
VOYNiCH.NEW source, and I was struck by the visual similarity of some of
the most common words.  Spelling and handwriting variations were what
came to mind.

I've got some preliminary analysis posted at:

  http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260/voy/voyan1.html

Currently it just shows the SC89 and 4OFC89 groups.  Maybe tomorrow I'll
get around to adding the 4OFAN, OPC89 and OFAM groups. I can't help but
feel the the similatrities within (and between) these groups is far to
high to be coincidental.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Oct 31 22:26:10 1997
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Quha wait gif all that Chauceir wrait was trew?
Nor I wait nocht gif this narratioun
Be authoreist, or fenyeit of the new
Be sum Poeit, throw his Inventioun,
Maid to report the Lamentatioun
And wofull end to this lustie Creisseid,
And quhat distres scho thoillit, and quhat deid.

 --Robert Henryson, 15th-century Scottish "makar"

That was posted on the Conlang (CONstructed LANGuage)
interest list yesterday. Think about it. About how
Scots pronunciation is represented in spelling.
How divergent the spelling is likely to be from one
author to the next, even within one author's work.
I won't say more.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 18:08:08 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Status: OR


In response to Jim Gillogly request:

I am a professor of computer science at Unicamp, a Brazilian
university.  Centuries ago I graduated as an electronics engineer, but
I was already 100% into software and computer science by then, and
that is what I have been doing for most of my life.

Over the years my interests have moved from theoretical computer
science (graphs, automata, formal languages) to analysis of
algorithms, then computational geometry, then computer graphics ---
which is what I have been teaching mostly here at Unicamp.

As a kid, I spoke Venetian at home (that's the dialect of the region
around Venice, where my parents came from) and reading mostly Italian
magazines.  Outside of the home I would use Portuguese, of course.  
I got into junior high when Latin had just been dropped from the
curriculum; so don't ask me what comes after "rosa". (No, we don't
speak Latin here in Latin America. 8-) 

I learned to read English as an undergraduate, and to pronounce it
some ten years later; guess how much I had to un-learn.  French I can
read, but neither speak nor write; my Spanish is only merginally
better.  Many years ago I studied some German (three months) and
Japanese (one year), but alles wassuremashita by now...

I seem to be the only person on this list who isn't into cryptography
and hasn't read Kahn's /The Code Breakers/.  The closest I have got 
is Verne's /Voyage to the Center of the Earth/ and /The Raft/.  Maybe
someday I will get to read Poe's /The Golden Bug/.  (Actually, while
in high school I and a friend stared exchanging encrypted messages as
brainteasers; but after a couple of rounds the codes became too
dificult, and we gave up...)

On the other hand, as a teenager I immensely enjoyed C. W. Ceram's
/Gods, Graves and Scholars/, especially his accounts of the
decipherment of Egyptian hyeroglyphs and cuneiform, and the
tantalizing problem of the Maya script.  So, when the VMs gave me a
chance to do that sort of thing, I felt like a longtime Star Trek fan
who got a chance to work at NASA...

A more "serious" motivation came from some work I have been doing here
at Unicamp, with two of my faculty colleagues. Over the last few years
we have been exploring the use of large finite-state automata to
represent the the word lists of natural languages.  originally, our goal
was merely to build fast, compact, and accurate spell
checkers for inflected languages. But we found that those automata
can also be useful tools for linguistic analysis.

By looking at the structure of the automaton one can easily spot
classes of words that inflect in the same way, such as paradigms for
verb conjugation, noun declension, etc.  One can also spot words that
are "sticking out" (i.e., do not fit into any paradigm) or "apparently
missing" (whose addition would cause a root to fit into a common
paradigm). Thus automata are also a powerful tool for debugging
wordlists.

When I learned of the VMs, a few months ago, I naturally thought of
trying that tool on its "vocabulary".  Unfortunately it did not work,
because the sample I used was too small (under 10000 words) and rather
"noisy" (perhaps as much as 5% transcription errors at the "letter"
level).  The only paradigm that stood out clearly was the AM|AN|AR|AE
"declension", which was already well-known to Voynichologists.

But the attempt got me hooked, and since then Voynich hacking has been
taking a good part of my "spare" time (meaning the time when I was
supposed to be grading tests or writing grant reports 8-).

So far, my contributions to this problem seem to be mostly
negative. For instance, some of my statistics suggest that certain
pairs of Voynich "symbols", which were generally treated as distinct
"letters", are in fact semantically equivalent --- their differences
are either mere calligraphic variations (such as the serifs and shape
variants in the Latin alphabet), or phonetic changes that have little
effect in the meaning (such as the stress marks in Portuguese, which
move around as the word gets inflected.)

Part of my evidence is that the short labels attached to the VMs
diagrams *can* be found in the main text, provided one ignores those
letter differences, as well as the spaces between words.  Moreover,
for many such labels, the occurrences are typically restricted to certain
sections of the VMs, and are strongly clustered---just like the
"substantial" words of natural languages.

In my opinion, these statistics also argue against the text being
meaningless random gibberish, or encrypted with anything more complex
than a plain substitution cypher.  It looks like the VMs is meaningful
text, written in some natural-like language with an original but
straightforward alphabet.  (Note, by the way, that deciphering an
unfamiliar natural language is probably harder than cracking a typical
military cryptosystem.  In a sense, it is like trying to break a
system based on a 1000-page codebook and a 200-page word-scrambling
algorithm...)

I have also argued against the assumption that the VMs language is
most likely to be Latin, English, or French.  For one thing, the main
reason people have been interested in the manuscript, since Dee's
times, is because it looks quite "alien"; i.e.  the book has been
selected mainly for the strangeness of its writing. Therefore, one
cannot use the same "a priori" language probabilities as one would use
for a "random" medieval manuscript.  Moreover, it seems that the
intellectual scene in medieval times was more varied than common
prejucice has it.  Thousands of books were written in all languages,
from Malay to Maya; and there was a lot of international travel and
trade.

We should keep in mind that our picture of the middle ages is probably
rather skewed by the dominance of English, American and French
scholarship in modern times.  Obviously, a manuscript in Catalan or
Armenian is much less likely to find its way to a library in Cambridge
or Yale---and to be read by the local patrons---than one in English or
French.  (Indeed, if the VMs hadn't been valorized by its association
with Rudolph and Kircher, it might well have been disposed of by some
cleaning lady---as it happened to a big chunk of John Dee's "angelical"
diaries.)

--stolfi

From reeds Sat Nov  1 19:28:10 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9711011928.ZM19741@research.att.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:28:09 -0500
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Who am I
Bcc: reeds@openix.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

In response to Jim Gillogly's request:

I work in an industrial research lab's mathematics department. I have degrees
in mathematics and statistics, and have a long-standing interest in the history
of cryptography. I have known about the VMS since age 15 or so, in Fletcher
Pratt's 1939 "Secret and Urgent" ( a popular history of cryptography book now
supplanted by Kahn's "The Codebreakers"). I have been lucky enough to meet a
number of famous (and not so famous) people associated with the VMS problem,
including Mary D'Imperio and 3 members of the 1945 "First Study Group". I am
also most fortunate in being married to one of the world's few experts on
medieval and renaissance botany; she in unfortunate in being married to a VMS
nut who asks her silly questions about herbals once a week. (Hot news flash:
as I typed this she came in, and told me that today she met the person who
catalogued the VMS for Yale. She [wife] told her [cataloger] that I was a
rational being. With this recommendation I will not hesitate to contact the
cataloger.)

My VMS efforts have been mostly spent in assembling research materials for
others in this group. I maintain a bibliography of VMS publications, I made
photocopies of Petersen's hand transcription available, I snared Jacques Guy
into helping me enter the 1945 First Study Group transcription into the
computer. I have a web page, http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich.html,
which has this stuff in it, but not very well organized.

I have a number of other hobbies, about as strange as the VMS. I want to track
down the origins of the parable (if that's the right word) of the monkeys and
typewriters, I want to track down the origin of the "Legend of Tailor Pink"
(the supposed inventor of the pink hunting coat), I want to track down the
author of the "We trained hard...." drivel attributed to Petronius.



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 18:59:09 1997
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Message-ID: <345BD1A3.5C9E962@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:04:35 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> When I learned of the VMs, a few months ago, I naturally thought of
> trying that tool on its "vocabulary".  Unfortunately it did not work,
> because the sample I used was too small (under 10000 words) and rather
> "noisy" (perhaps as much as 5% transcription errors at the "letter"
> level).  The only paradigm that stood out clearly was the AM|AN|AR|AE
> "declension", which was already well-known to Voynichologists.

Is this info available on the web anywhere? Did you find anything about the
CC89/C89/CC9/C8/C9 suffix sequence? Or the difference between a 4OF and just
an OF prefix?

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  1 18:59:10 1997
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Message-ID: <345BD208.32A182F6@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:06:16 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Jacques Guy wrote:

> The work of a madman, the work of a priest and a spice merchant...,
> and I haven't broached upon the work of a hoaxer yet...

Can I add a mercury sniffing Alchemist and an opportunist artist?

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 01:05:09 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@paw.montana.com>
To: "'voynich'" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: who am I
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:04:12 -0700
Encoding: 10 TEXT
Status: OR

Gosh: Kahn surely stirred up a storm. I, too was inspired years ago, but 
put the VM aside until I saw the 'net postings. I'm an atmospheric 
scientist, researching fire for the Forest Service. I also enjoy target 
shooting and gunsmithing, as well as running a 16' radio telescope and a 
small optical one. I got interested in medieval thought while studying 
psychology, and found Yates, Dee (a founder of organized weather 
prediction), the early Royal Society, and other stuff.  I'm absolutely not 
a linguist, but have done some work in time series analysis and information 
theory.
Best to all of you, Don

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 06:44:08 1997
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From: pepe@prince.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp
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To: voynich@study.club.or.jp
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: Takeshi Takahashi's message of Sat, 01 Nov 1997 19:03:53 +0900 <345AFE89.6A@study.club.or.jp>
Subject: Hello!
Status: OR


Well, after reading a lot of message from newcomers, I guess that I'd
better introduce myself too...

My name is Jose Beltran-Escavy; I am a Spanish Ph.D. student currently
trying to obtain a degree in Robotic Engineering at the University of
Tokyo. I have been living in Japan for the past 2 and a half years,
and I expect to obtain my doctor degree in September '98 (if I don't
die of over-exertion or am expelled from the country before that, of
course... ;-) )

My speciality is computer science, and my foremost hobby is
linguistics (I have studied 8 languages so far to a higher or lesser
degree of fluency, and my next goal is to learn Chinese and Korean). I
have read about the Voynich Manuscript in many places, and my
curiosity was aroused. Finally I found about this mailing list, and I
decided to subscribe.

I am aware that I am supposed to give some meaningful insights in my
postings, but I am afraid that, so far, I have none... Besides, I am
an absolute beginner in this subject, and I am afraid that whatever I
might say will probably have already been said many, many, many times
over. So, please bear with the stupidity of a poor little guy who has
lost his way (baaaaaa.... baaaaaa.... baaaaaa....! ;-) ). I have just
a couple of questions to make, in order to better judge the "playing
field" we have here:

(1) Can we be sure that the units of the text are "words" as we see
them written? (I mean, groups of symbols divided by blanks). Has
anybody tried to analyze the text using as unit, not the word, but
some other division? (like lines, or "syllables").

(2) Can we be sure of the sense in which the manuscript has to be
read? (left-to-right or right-to-left)

(3) Can we be sure that the order of the pages in the manuscript is
correct? (of course, if we have a picture spanning two pages, we know
that those two pages are well placed, but, what about the rest?).

Please forgive the silliness of my questions, but I am a perfect
amateur in these subjects, and I am probably missing many things that
should be perfectly obvious to me.

Thank you for your patience!

Best wishes,

              Jose Beltran-Escavy
              pepe@prince.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp

PS: Also, please forgive my English; I'm sure there are lots of errors
in this post.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 12:41:08 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Hello!
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	<9711021142.AA00219@lily.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
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Status: OR


    > [pepe:] (1) Can we be sure that the units of the text are
    > "words" as we see them written? (I mean, groups of symbols
    > divided by blanks).
    
My current guess is that a large fraction of the blanks are NOT word
spaces.  One bit of evidence is that 85% of the spaces can be
predicted by looking at the two adjacent letters.  Few natural
languages behave like that.  Also, it seems that figure labels can be
found more easily in the main text if one ignores the word spaces of
the latter

    > Has anybody tried to analyze the text using as unit,
    > not the word, but some other division? (like lines, or
    > "syllables").

The letter and digraph frequencies around word spaces are
significantly different from those around line breaks. This was
noticed first by Capt. Currier and has been confirmed by many others.

Robert Firth and others have observed that the VMs "words" seem to
have a relatively rigid internal structure.  They do look more like
syllabes than indo-european words.

    > (2) Can we be sure of the sense in which the manuscript has to be
    > read? (left-to-right or right-to-left)

Most of the text is in the form of ordinary-looking paragraphs,
averaging 5-6 lines (in the "bio" section, at least).  

There is some
extra vertical space between consecutive paragraphs.  The top line
of each paragraph often contains (and often begins with) certain
ornate letters that are rarely seen elsewhere.

All the lines of a paragraph begin on the left margin.  They all end
approximately on the right margin---except the bottom one, which may end
anywere between the two margins.  The right margin looks
generally more irregular than the right margin.

In some sections, each paragraph is "highlighted" by a star-shaped
symbol at the left end of the top line.  A few pages contain what look
like "itemized lists", with a single-letter label at the left of the
top line of each paragraph.

These features are strong proof that the text was written left to right,
top to bottom, as in modern European languages.  In fact, they show that
the scribe was European, or at least familiar with the European 
paragraph structure (such as ornate letters on the first line).

Before we jump to conclusions, however, note that this tells us
about the *scribe*, not necessarily the *author*.  Thus, for instance,
the VMs may be an European copy of an Arabic original, mirror-reversed
for the convenience of an European client who could not get used
to the right-to-left order...

    > (3) Can we be sure that the order of the pages in the manuscript is
    > correct? (of course, if we have a picture spanning two pages, we know
    > that those two pages are well placed, but, what about the rest?).

The pages have numbers, but they were apparently added some time after
the book was written, by someone who could not read it. 

Pages with similar contents (as far as we can tell, from the figures and text
structure) are mostly grouped together.  The signs of the zodiac are
in the correct order (but start with Pisces, an unusual choice).

There are a couple of pages that seem out of place, though.
Also, the the sheets of the herbal section alternate between two
distinct handwriting styles; this *might* be due to scrambling of the
sheets (folios) in that section.  The other sections seem OK in this regard.

Jim Reeds's site has a very detailed physical description of the book,
which he checked against the real thing. There you will find a list of
the folios and how they are folded, nested and bound.

--stolfi

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"C'est mon lot, mon lot d'aliene mis en observation, et qui, chaque fois
qu'il est mis en observation, observe ses observateurs, refractaire a
toutes les observations..."

(This is my lot, my lot as a madman put under observation and who, every
time he is put under observation, observes his observers, impervious to
all observations)

(Decimo, Marc. 1986. "Jean-Pierre Brisset, Prince des Penseurs". Ramsay.
Paris).

The above quote, dating from the turn of the century, is from the
writings of an inmate of Charenton Hospital, an insane asylum. It was
published in the 29 July 1904 issue of Le Petit Parisien, in a front
page article by Jean Frollo entitled  "Chez les fous"  (With the
insane). Alliteration and repetition are given as signs of insanity. And
they are. Jean-Pierre Brisset, the subject of Decimo's book, was a
railway-station master who wrote several books of ever increasing
insanity. I have two of them, "la grammaire logique" and "les origines
humaines", alas the two least insane of his works, but nevertheless
quite unhinged. Brisset thought that languages never evolved and that
God's Truth was everywhere in them, which he extracted by punning. Thus,
once asked how he would interpret the word "israelite" he immediately
retorted: "It is one of the most obvious: i - sra -elite = il sera elite
(he will be elite)". And indeed, in informal spoken French "il sera
elite" is pronounced exactly like "israelite".

Whereby the Voynich manuscript, replete with alliterations and
repetitions, is the work of a madman.

Consider now this piece of gibberish:

A papa nak ne jek jeken jekin me men nes lele gang.

Very  Voynich-like nonsense, isn't it?

Well, that was a Balinese riddle:

Apa panakne jekjek enjekin, memenne slelegang?
What is it that a child steps on, but its mother leans against?

How about:

Kuluk ngongkong, tuara ngutgut.
A puppy barks, but it never bites.

And this:

Buka dalang nyiatang wayang.
Like a puppeteer making his puppets fight.
...ang ...ang ...ang
...c89 ...c89 ...c89....???

I took those examples out of "Bali: Sekala dan Niskala", Volume II,
by Fred Eiseman (Periplus Editions, Hong Kong, 1990). Even the title of
the book is Voynich-like: sekala dan niskala (the visible and the
invisible). But there is more. In the chapter on onomatopoeia, you learn
that Balinese is rife with them, vividly illustrated like this (p.147):

English speaker: The wind blew hard last night, gusting from all
                 directions.
Balinese speaker: The wind kesir-kesir last night.

E: I heard it blow through the trees, rustling the coconut leaves.
B: The wind krasak-krosok.

E: My heart quickened because I felt afraid.
B: My heart ketug-ketug.

Four pages of such onomatopoieae follow. Among which:

Brakbak-brukbuk: bubbling water.
Crakcak-crekcek: drip here and there.
Geradag-geredeg: heart beating.
Kabang-kabeng:   open and close repeatedly, like fish gills.
Kasad-kisid:     move something repeatedly about, such as a statue, or
                 chairs.
Kayad-kiyud:     stretch body.
Kebiyus-kebiyus: smell spreading out.
Kebiyur-kebiyur: flame flickering.
Kejat-kejit:     go into convulsions.
Kenyit-kenyit:   twinkle.
Kesyah-kesyuh:   alternately feeling good or bad.
Sliyar-sliyur:   back and forth.

Chapter 14 is on architecture:  "Using an ancient doctrine of
architectural principles, the Asta Kosala Kosali, a Balinese
architect...". Kosala Kosali!

Wait, we're not finished. Too few words are found repeated in
Voynichese?

"Verbs are conjugated, but not in a complex fashion. The conjugation has
nothing to do with tense, but rather,  indicates whether the verb is
transitive or intransitive, active or passive... Two common examples
will suffice ...:

GAE = MAKE (WORK, DO)

gae       imperative    Fred, make a toy
gaena     passive       The toy was made by Fred
ngae      active        He makes a toy
magae     intransitive  I am working
ngaenang  dative        I make a toy for my son

SALUK = PUT ON

saluk     imperative    Fred, put on that sandal
saluka    passive       That  sandal was put on by someone
nyaluk    active        Fred puts on his sandal
masaluk   intransitive  This sandal has already been put on
nyalukin  dative        I put on this  sandal for Fred"

Finally, these two sentences (p.143):

Tiang jagi meli baju abesik. I will buy one shirt.
Ipun lakar numbas wastra asik. He will buy one shirt.

Tiang is "I", ipun is "he/she/it". The rest is,  word for word, "will
buy shirt one". Yet no two words are alike. In the first sentence, the
speaker, referring to himself, uses Low Balinese. In the second
sentence, the same speaker, referring to someone else of no particularly
great status, uses Medium Balinese out of politeness. Had "he" been a
priest or a dignitary, the speaker would have used a third set of words,
from High Balinese.

So there you are:  the repetitive patterns of the Voynich manuscript are
at once compatible with the ravings of an insane Frenchman and with the
works of a Balinese scholar. How about language A and B, then? Well,
perhaps scribe A was a merchant and as such had to use the low language;
and scribe  B was a priest, who had to use the high language. And again,
scribe A and scribe B may have been one mad Frenchman (or Italian,
or...) with a split personality.

Someone just asked if there had been any early contact between
Malayo-Polynesians and Europeans. I remembered my Tahitian teacher
fleetingly mentioning that Polynesian explorers had wandered into the
Mediterranean in the Middle Ages. I was not interested in those days, I
did not inquire further. I had enough on my plate learning Chinese and
Japanese. And I thought she was  having us on, or deluding herself (she
was Tahitian, so, presumably proud of her ancestors' sea-faring
exploits). But thinking of it... Polynesians reached  Easter Island
around  400 AD and New Zealand about 1000 AD. Then I thought of
Madagascar, off the eastern coast of Africa, populated by mixed negroid
and malay people, all speaking Malayo-Polynesian languages. The official
language, Malagasy, is obviously Malayo-Polynesian, but so different
from today's Malay and Polynesian languages that it is likely quite
ancient. In other words, Madagascar was probably populated by
Malayo-Polynesian speakers long before Easter Island. What would have
prevented them from circumnavigating Africa, right into the
Mediterranean? Nothing of course. It would have been absolute child's
play for people who had sailed from somewhere in today's Indonesian
archipelago -- or Formosa, or the Philippines, where aboriginal
populations all speak some Malayo-Polynesian language.

But I don't think we have to speculate that far. The spice trade was
already well established in Mediaeval times. Clove came from the Molucca
islands (properly: Malaka). How far back is Hungarian "csabai" attested?
I don't know, all I know is that "csabai" (spelt cabay or tjabay) is
"chilli" in Malay. Some time ago there was a discussion on Roman cuisine
on sci.classics, where I learnt that a very common ingredient was
fermented fish sauce -- prepared much like Vietnamese  nuoc mam. A layer
of fish, a layer of salt, a layer of fish... until the jar is full,
leave to rot, tap the juice, there's your "garum". I still wonder if
the whole thread was not a hoax... "garam" is Malay for "salt". But my
Collins Latin dictionary gives "garum" as "fish sauce". Of course, it
could be a coincidence.

Where does that take us? Nowhere but back to square one.

The work of a madman, the work of a priest and a spice merchant..., 
and I haven't broached upon the work of a hoaxer yet...

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 14:56:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:48:11 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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	<199711012301.VAA04338@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
	<345BD1A3.5C9E962@ibm.net>
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    > [stolfi:] The only paradigm that stood out clearly was the AM|AN|AR|AE
    > "declension", which was already well-known to Voynichologists.
    > 
    > [Mik Clarke:] Is this info available on the web anywhere? 
    
See Robert Firth's notes (highly recommended) at

    http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/firth.html
    
Note #02 discusses the AM|AN|AR|AE "declension".

    > [Mik Clarke:] Did you find anything about the
    > CC89/C89/CC9/C8/C9 suffix sequence?
    
Below is what I got from my automaton-based tool. (The full boring
details are in http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/Notebook-1.txt, 
in case you have absolutely nothing better to do...)

   state NP NS NW PR  prefs/suffs
   ----- -- -- -- --  -----------------
     180 35  2 70 34  { TDZ8, TC2, TAR, RTC8, RSC8, ... }:{ (), G }
      60 30  2 60 29  { THZC, TDCC, TCHC, SCDZC, OHTC, ... }:{ 8G, G }
     186 15  2 30 14  { TC8O, PZA, PTO, PTC8A, OESCO, ... }:{ E, R }
     681  4  4 16  9  { TC8A, OEHA, O8A, GHA }:{ E, M, N, R }
      71  5  3 15  8  { 8TCC, 4OPTC, 4OHTC, DSC, 2OETC }:{ 8G, G, OE }
      85  8  2 16  7  { OHAES, OFT, EPT, EHC, 8GDC, ... }:{ 8G, C8G }
      58  7  2 14  6  { TR, SOE, SC8AE, OHOE, ODOE, ... }:{ (), 8G }
     206  4  3 12  6  { OHS, AET, 4ORC, 4ODS }:{ 8G, C8G, CG }
     233  4  3 12  6  { TCHZ, ETCDZ, 4OT, 4ODZ }:{ C8G, CG, G }
     255  4  3 12  6  { OCC, 8OETC, 8CC, 4OESC }:{ 8G, C8G, G }
     123  6  2 12  5  { TCCD, TC8T, SCCDC, ODZ, EDC8, ... }:{ CG, G }
     189  5  2 10  4  { SHZCG, SCOEO, OHC8G, 4ODT8G, ... }:{ (), E }
     193  3  3  9  4  { OPSC8, ODCC8, 4ODCC8 }:{ (), AE, G }
     301  5  2 10  4  { TDAR, ROR, OEOR, HC8G, 4OHOE }:{ (), OE }
     463  5  2 10  4  { TCC8, OET8, HTC8, GHCC8, CC8 }:{ AR, G }
      30  4  2  8  3  { O2, HAR, CCC2, 2AR }:{ (), AE }
     151  4  2  8  3  { ODS, GFT, EDT, 4O8C }:{ C8G, CG }
     304  2  4  8  3  { TPZ, 4OHS }:{ 8G, C8G, CG, G }
     229  2  3  6  2  { EDCC, 4ODTC }:{ 8, 8G, G }
     368  3  2  6  2  { ODAI, AI, 8CI }:{ IIL, R }
     372  3  2  6  2  { TCOET, OTC, DCT }:{ 8G, CG }
     408  3  2  6  2  { S8, POES8, 8SCC8 }:{ AE, G }
     588  2  3  6  2  { SODA, EORA }:{ E, M, N }
     662  2  3  6  2  { SCDC, ODCS }:{ 8G, CG, G }
     819  3  2  6  2  { SCAE, OEDCCG, ODC8G }:{ (), R }

This table lists selected states of the minimal deterministic
finite-state automaton that accepts all the "words" in the biological
section, and only those words, in the FSG encoding.

Each line represents a state "s" of the automaton, which 
is in some sense an "inflection paradigm" --- the set of all 
valid suffixes that can follow some prefix of some word.

"NP" is the number of prefixes of "s", i.e. the number of distinct
paths that lead from the initial state to "s".  "NS" is the number
of suffixes, i.e. the number of paths that lead from "s" to some final
(accepting) state.  "NW = NP*NS" is therefore the number of words that
use (go through) state "s".

A state thus can be seen a group of "roots" (prefixes) 
that share a characteristic set of "endings" (suffixes). 

"PR" is the "productivity" of state "s", defined as
"(NP-1)*(NS-1)". Intuitively, a state with high productivity is one
where many prefixes are combined with many suffixes.  The table only
lists states with PR >= 2, sorted by PR.

The last column shows the (truncated) sets of prefixes and suffixes.

Thus, the first line of the table says that state 180 can be reached
by 35 prefixes 

   { TDZ8, TC2, TAR, RTC8, RSC8, ... }

which occur combined *only* with the two suffixes

   { (empty), G }
   
State 60 collects all 30 prefixes { THZC, TDCC, TCHC, SCDZC, OHTC, ... }
that can be followed by the suffixes { 8G, G }, and no others.

State 186 represents all 15 prefixes that can be followed by { E, R },
exclusively.
   
State 681 comprises the prefixes that have a "pure" AM|AN|AR|AE declension.
There are many other prefixes that combine with these endings, of course;
but are not listed here because they either do not occur with some of these
suffixes, or occur also with other suffixes.  For instance,
PTC8A occurs with endings E and R but not M or N, hence it is 
listed under state 186 and not 681. Likewise SODA, EORA (state 588)
occur with endings E, M, N but not R.

Looking at this table and other statistics, I eventually identified
two major kinds of "roots": those that inflect with {M,E,N,R} and
those that inflect with {(),G,8G,CG,C8G}.  But this 
was not a very systematic analysis.

    > Or the difference between a 4OF and just
    > an OF prefix?

Mike Roe posted another, more extensive "paradigm" for VMS words, that
factors the (O|4O)(P|F) prefixes.  It was extended and reposted by Rene
Zandbergen; search for "Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 13:53:35 EWT" in
http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/BIG3.txt

Recently I constructed yet another prefix/suffix decompostion that
covers 85% of the words in the biological section. However I ignored
some "calligraphic" details (such as ligatures and the loops in
gallows letters), and thus I may have erased significant
differences. Anyway, you will find it in

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/pref-suf-table.html

Hope it helps,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 16:35:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 22:39:55 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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References: <345AFE89.6A@study.club.or.jp>
		<9711021142.AA00219@lily.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp> <199711021733.PAA05627@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > [pepe:]
>     > (2) Can we be sure of the sense in which the manuscript has to be
>     > read? (left-to-right or right-to-left)

[snip]

> Before we jump to conclusions, however, note that this tells us
> about the *scribe*, not necessarily the *author*.  Thus, for instance,
> the VMs may be an European copy of an Arabic original, mirror-reversed
> for the convenience of an European client who could not get used
> to the right-to-left order...

I got into looking at the characters and how to draw them earlier today and,
based upon the Voynich Currier Hand A font, I think the original glyphs may have
been ment to have been painted with a brush going right to left. See:

  http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260/voy/voysym.html

for more details. I've also updated my analysis of the word groups to now include
the 4OFAN, OFC89 and OFAN groups. If some of my suppositions are corrent we could
be looking at 40%+ error rates for the glyph transcription.
(Which would require that the manuscripts we have today be a copy - and not a
very good one).

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 18:08:07 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Hello!
In-Reply-To: <199711021733.PAA05627@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> Pages with similar contents (as far as we can tell, from the figures and text
> structure) are mostly grouped together.  The signs of the zodiac are
> in the correct order (but start with Pisces, an unusual choice).

Oops! I must've missed this as it came through in an earlier discussion on
the signs of the zodiac. This is not an unusual choice at all if one knows
astrology. It dates that this was done during the Piscean Age (ours), and
if there are numbers or portions of a 30-degree arc bisected by a line, we
could even have an approximate date (given that the 30 degrees of Pisces
line up against that portion of the Great New Year that would be some
portion of 1/12th of about 26,400 yrs or so -- I could look up the exact
number). In other words, the Pisces beginning actually points to it being
done in this age, while the abstract chart beginning with Aries would
point to nothing in particular.

Gee, now that we have that part, the rest should be easy! ;-)

warm regards, moonhawk



From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 18:23:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:19:55 -0800
To: voynich@rand.org
From: jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)
Subject: I am ...
Status: OR

I understand we have some new members on the list. I have not posted in a
while so thought I would also give an updated intro. I am one of the few
who is not into crypto. I was introduced to the VMs by Bennett's early
computer science text. (which also introduced me to 3D stereo anaysis of
images). My primary interest is that if a graphic artist in the glyph
design, and the layoyt. I made a simple postscript version of the VMs font
a few years back (Now enhanced by others). I work for Apple computer in the
imaging division and have a small bit of postscript experiance. Which is
what I make my living with.
I have a number of other interests. Primarally watchmaking. I also like to
dress in historical costume. I was activley involved with the Northern
california Renaissance Faire. I have a strange relation with Dr Dee, as he
seems to exist and have had influence in many of my interest. I am no
longer surprised when he shows up unexpected.
I can read some French, mostly Horological. Having lived all my live in the
silicon valley and environs I primarally know English, although I think I
will have to learn spanish sometime. My web page, No Voynich though, is at
<http://webo.com/jporter>.
I subscribe to a varent of the ignorant scribe theory. Mine is the
incompitent scribe. Two guys are flunking scryptography so they fake the
final exam. Of cource they could be attempting to copy aribic or some other
language. I no longer think the VMs is an encyption of one of the big 3
European langages. This after reading D'Impereo. Th hats on the figures and
the portly look indicate a more ealy 15th century origion rather than a
16th or 17th date. Not having seen the origional I can not rule out a
modern fake. Most of the written descriptions of the ms. seem to indicate
the earler date. I would love to be able to get some full spectrum, multi
angle scans of the ms.
-julieP




From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 20:38:07 1997
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From: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:31:29 +0800
Subject: More random notes
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Status: OR


In response to stolfi

1.  Classical written arabic seems to behave almost exactly as the VMs
with respect to spaces: the space can be predicted 95%+ from the
adjacent letters.  However, that's mostly because the letters have
different
shapes when they bound a space, so the space is prior and the letters
are posterior.  Arabic does however have some letters with no medial
form, that therefore force a break, and so the letter is prior, the space
posterior.  Which way is the VMs??

2. In case you find the idea of the VMs as a mirror reversed arabic
manuscript very strange, please note that the most common convention
for japanese manga is to publish the english version mirror reversed,
so the balloons spoken by the characters are read in the correct order.

TTFN
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 22:47:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 20:42:31 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Introductions
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Status: OR

Hi,
My name is Rayman Malekei.

Although I have been a member of the mailing list just over a year, I have
devoted much time to this manuscript over a period of 11 years.  I haven't
been at the Voynich as long as Jim Gillogly or some others on the list, but
the thousands of hours I've logged in search of this elusive element has
been an act of pure enjoyment to me.

I am an Electrical Engineer working for a national construction company that
specializes in hospital design and construction.  I speak Russian and wade
through Polish and Latin, and I have an extensive formal background in
cryptography of the military variety.  I continue my interest in
cryptography by specializing in the study of medieval manuscripts, many of
which debatably contain cipher of one type or another.

Why does Agrippa need keys for his books unless something is hidden below
the surface?  Why are these keys passed on only by word of mouth to fellow
initiates?  Who seems to notice when Dee says a book contains "Claves
Agrippae"?  I notice, because those keys are important to understanding the
medieval mind.  Agrippa had his works analyzed for correctness by Trithemius
himself before he released them for publication.  Agrippa repeatedly
mentions his "corn" passage even in his apologetic letter, where he was
forced to denounce his writings.  Does he do this because he wishes to
denounce this passage, or because he wishes to call attention to this
passage?  What is hidden has little bearing on modern scientific thought,
but the search for the hidden is incredibly satisfying.  As you may have
gathered, I am one of the few that believe the Voynich to be cipher, and
probably the only one that is certain that this is fact.

I call into question the Enochian language.  We believe it to be a language
because Dee says it is, and also writes translations for the words next to
them.    When we strip this hear-say evidence from the text however, we find
something quite similar to the problem at hand.  Fairly repetitive text with
very few repeating words.  Specific pages of this language can be even more
striking in similarity than some, and the same examination of "hands" in the
Enochian language should be done as for the Voynich.  When we focus strictly
on the text and omit all extraneous input, we must conclude that both texts
are either constructed languages, or they are both cipher in origin.
Neither leaves room for natural language.

I believe the protestants to have been a very ingenious set of individuals,
capable of exploiting the finer elements of cryptography against their
rather sedate catholic counterparts.  Protestantism meant a freedom of
religion and freedom of expression, something so important to a world on the
verge of scientific breakthrough.  There are literally thousands of known
examples of cipher in routine books and communications from this time
period, and presumably hundreds of unknown examples waiting to be read.

I was working in cryptography about the time Kahn's "The Codebreakers" came
out, and as an historical reference I share the interest in this book that
many of you have noted.  I do not however quote this book as an absolute
source when it comes to medieval cryptography.  Many of the ciphers were in
use hundreds of years before they were published, and this includes several
of the Trithemian type.  The common Vigenere table had been used by the
caballists as early as 1140 a.d., and by the time the Voynich was written
this type of cipher had progressed and mutated into some extremely
sophisticated forms.  The difficulty in tracking the history of this cipher
type comes in the fact that it was mixed with another type of cipher known
as "strewing", which distributed the cipher throughout a standard written
page.  Few keys were published, as tradition dictated that the keys be
passed on verbally to known initiates.  Keys that were published usually
resembled magical sigils and were themselves encrypted by a means stated in
the text.

I find nothing out of line with thinking of the Voynich as cipher, but
everything wrong with considering languages that Europe was not exposed to
by the time the Voynich was authored.  The Voynich author was neither well
educated nor well travelled, and his chances of learning and writing in
Malay are so astronomical that we should also consider alien visitation as a
probable means of linguistic dissemination.  Perhaps the Voynich contains an
early account of an alien abductee!


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 00:23:12 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@paw.montana.com>
To: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: speaking of nonsense...
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:22:07 -0700
Encoding: 39 TEXT
Status: OR



----------
From: 	Jacques Guy[SMTP:j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au]
Sent: 	Monday, November 03, 1997 12:41
To: 	voynich@rand.org
Subject: 	VMS: speaking of nonsense...

I found this on soc.culture.french this morning. I had
never seen a text like that -- and I have seen a lot!
Some of it seems the result of a random cut-and-
paste from messages on soc.culture.french. Even part of
the subject line (Mscdex.exe [0/1]) has to be a cut-and-
paste. But the rest... I don't think it could be the 
output from a monkey-style random text generator.
Fascinating stuff. 


Subject: Frenchy Poo - Mscdex.exe [0/1]
   Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:09:23 -0800
   From: bifkin@nac.net (Joey Pedophile)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.french


Yo, muh Frenchy brothers. I quan-chi ya all...French Fries fuckin rock, 
biotch...that uhhhh french toast shit r0x0rz too. France was nice, until 
the french moved in. 
dernier pour les races.Pour la suffit d'avoir un A votre avis, augmente-
t-on parallelement son
intelligence ? Drole de "bonne correlation", non ?

So, if any of ya sweet France biotches need some luvin' jus contact me
an 
muh sweet ass incest pedophilia necrophilia zoophilia family. We can get 
it on.

Jacques:   Are you sure this did not come from Finnegan's Wake, somewhere after the quarks, and before Anna Livia??? :-)



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 01:50:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 01:44:57 -0500
From: John Stojko <oko@worldnet.att.net>
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Hello!
My name is John Stojko  Retired.

In my life I made many resolutions, so I made one before retirement.
I will give up my hobby  decipherment.
But because of my past sin I could not keep my promise. My hobby caused
this sin. I not only published one book in 1978 on VMS decipherment
Letters To Gods Eye but also wrote many articles on Phoenician and
Etruscan decipherment which were published in Ukrainian newspapers in
USA and Canada. People remember what I wrote and continue to question me
How and why I committed the sin. That is why I am on the mailing list
in this group.
I do not have my web page therefore I can not make reference to my
decipherment. But I intend to have one in the future. In mean time I
will give you few samples of my decipherment. I do not have means to
E-mail the original text therefore, I will give you translated text in
English. For the VMS writing I will use John Groves E-mail

John Groves e-mail dated Oct. 20, 1997. Subject  Title page.

Pg. Reff.         Decoding code.           VMS text.      My
decipherment in English
f8r.8;c             OSO.8AN                  (             )       You
will tell Oko (eye) of God.
F8r.13;c          OFO.E2AK                (            )        Greeted
than tell (she) loves Or if

in  the last letter the tail is not in error

than the reading should be,

Greeted than tell (you) love.
F8r.21;F         2SOE2AK                   (             )       Where
did you told the great evil 

The last word I corrected per my copy


The Etruscan Inscription from Pyrgi, Italy, dated c. 500 BC.
Bellow I am giving shorter Etruscan inscription in English.

5.    Every one is bowing down, this my dear you did hear.
4. There is wound of life, because I myself have.
6.    I do see the past, that is and why it was, because
3. Dearest made the promise. I do see the greatness,
7.    but there is a grief, what is and was, because that come to an
end.
2. In respect we will exist, this you know,
8. you understood and will have sympathy for us.
1. Lewij (Lew), you are now in Gods Guidance (Boha  Vodi), this is
Gods
9. because everything is known (to God) and that will be.

Note: No this is not  mistake. Believe me, the original text I numbered
from 1 to 9 starting from top line as 1. The mistake was made 500 BC by
Etruscans. The Etruscans wrote in a very strange way  The way the
farmer ploughs the field.
That is why the 5-th line in original Etruscan inscription become 1-st
in English.

The Phoenician writing from Etruscan grave in Pyrgi.

1. I myself do see this, you lost time and position by the river.
2. Stay alive, learn and after battle you should go into hiding.
3. You will have yours years in Kyiv, take under account what I am
saying.
4. Son, it is important to avoid every where the greater force.
5. The foreigners are planning for you swift (fast) suffering.
6. They do see, you love to fight and come to the rescue. There is
     involvement.
7. When you will not lead, listen to this. My
8. Kinsfolk are Kosars (Khozars) and this is obstacle for me.
9. Your kinsfolk are Kachals, this I learned.
10. We and Metani will lead (will be at the head) and you should tell
this as
      long as you are liv-
11. Ing.

By the way, the Vms, Phoenician and Etruscan inscriptions are written in
different
alphabets but are written in the same language  Ukrainian.

Regards,    John



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 03:47:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:41:48 +0200
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Dear newcomers,

you will have seen my name on messages several times,
because I just can't keep those fingers away from that keyboard.
(and I can type really fast, with 4-6 fingers :-) :-) )

I am uniquely unqualified for trying to solve the riddle of the
Voynich Ms, because I am not a linguist, not a cryptographer and
the middle ages never interested me too much until I was
introduced to the VMs by way of the  USENET newsgroup 'sci.skeptic'
(that's a new one, isn't it?).

Instead, I, too, am a space buff. Maths were always my forte
with the notable exception of statistics (again missing out on
the useful stuff but I'm working on that one). Right now I am
working as a subcontractor at the European Space Operations
Centre, among other things writing fortran programs and computing
very precise satellite orbits for Earth Observation Satellites (not
the military ones). Yes, we too can see El Nino.

Languages: I only know some modern ones and can probably
make out the meaning of a Latin text if I try very hard. I'm Dutch,
work for an English company and live in Germany. My wife is
Belgian, we married in Italy and the place I work at is truly
European. :-)

Lately, I have joined Gabriel Landini in his gallant initiative
of proofreading and completing the transcription(s) of the VMs.
This is progressing. We did both read the entire text from
beginning to end, agreed on the (complete) character set
and representation and are ready for the detailed comparison.  Those
experienced transcribers among the group who may be worried that
this should prove overwhelmingly difficult: we did a test of a major
section already, and found that our disagreement was generally
relatively minor.

I cannot really decide on what I think the VMs could be. I have a few
pet theories. I like the N.Italian origin, but would not exclude a
German influence. I am not all that convinced (anymore) that the
text is meaningful, but having said that: I have observed a great
variety in the 'look and feel' of the text between different sections.
Some sections seem like real text. Others do not.
I am not too much in favour of theories requiring very intricate cipher
to be present in the VMs. At the same time I think that a very simple,
and (to our minds) unusual cipher could be there. If this is plain
language then I think we're stuck.
And I could be wrong on all counts :-)

One more point: I certainly *want* the VMs to contain meaningful
text, but try not to let this influence my judgment.

D'Imperio is a good book, but I would especially recommend the
archives of the mailing list, available at Jim Reeds' web site.
There is about 6 Mbytes worth of varied material, with plenty
of forgotten treasures.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 04:59:08 1997
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>> Yesterday, when Malay was mentioned in two
>> contexts, I did not realise just how many features
>> Malay written in an Arabic script would have in
>> common with Voynichese.
>> The prefixes and suffixes, the short words,
>> the full-word repetitions, the absense of repeated
>> characters.

 > Jacques discussed the Jawi (Arabic) script used for
 > Malay in the Voylist archives.  Jawi does represent
 > vowels, but in a complex manner.

 I remember it now. I hadn't made the connection (I
 suppose this could be called a 'click'-Erlebnis.)

 > However, I think you would see the same thing with
 > Malay even in Latin orthography.

 But one would miss the 'consistent character set
 surrounding spaces'.

 > And I'm pretty sure Malay would be a low-entropy
> language.  It's in the Malayo-Polynesian group,
> and visually it looks low-entropy.

Yes, but it can easily be verified. There's some nice
source text on the web. Here's a "representative" excerpt
from a late one (dated 1879).

     Maka ada dalam benua Yaman, sebuah negeri amat teguh lagi
     berkota-kota kechil,

     lagi berpurata tanah bata,
     lagi berpintu dari tembaga,
     lagi berturap tanah karang,
     lagi berparit,
     lagi berjorong-jorong,
     lagi bertangga,
     lagi berpapan kasat-kasat,

(You can be sure I picked the most repetitive bit I could
find :-)

This is from www.geocities.com/Athens/6795/putri.html

There is the problem of timing though. Jawi Mss from the
15C are preciously few. It's not likely that there were
any in Europe to serve as source material for the VMs.
Marco Polo was reportedly in Sumatra (is that still true?)
and Ibn Battuta in the 14C....

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 06:29:08 1997
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In agreement with Robert  Firth:

> 1.  Classical written arabic seems to behave almost exactly as
> the VMs with respect to spaces: [...]  However, that's mostly
> because the letters have different shapes when they bound a
> space, so the space is prior and the letters
> are posterior.  Arabic does however have some letters with no
> medial form, that therefore force a break, and so the letter
> is prior, the space posterior.  Which way is the VMs??

Perhaps both, too....
Problem with the VMs is that the spaces after '9' are often
really wide gaps. Not as if this is a short word interruption.
But I admit that the VMs writer/scribe may have developped some
odd writing behaviour, especially if it is an ignorant scribe.


> 2. In case you find the idea of the VMs as a mirror reversed
> arabic manuscript very strange, please note that the most
> common convention for japanese manga is to publish the english
> version mirror reversed, so the balloons spoken by the
> characters are read in the correct order.

Just like my Hebrew Asterix :-) It would only become obvious
if there were too many references to left hand and right hand.
Of course, if the VMs is the product of an ignorant scribe,
he may have left the arabic word order unchanged, but just
copied from left to right and usually left-justified the
half lines (but not always!).

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 07:32:07 1997
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Briefly, so that there is no misunderstanding...

Rayman wrote:

> I find nothing out of line with thinking of the Voynich
> as cipher, but everything wrong with considering languages
> that Europe was not exposed to by the time the Voynich
> was authored.

In general terms, I can agree with the above opinions.

> The Voynich author was neither well educated nor well
> travelled,

the latter we have no information about. The former is
contestable, on the basis of his choice of alphabet. He
must have had *many* Mss in his hands. Again we can't be
sure one way or the other...

> and his chances of learning and writing in Malay are so
> astronomical that we should also consider alien visitation
> as a probable means of linguistic dissemination.

Whereas this is obviously not stated as a serious comparison,
I hasten to add that I agree that Malay is an extremely
unlikely possibility. On the other hand, the possibility is
not so small that it can be discarded a priori, as with the
suggestion that aliens are involved.
Had Wilfrid Voynich started his investigations with
the possibility of some exotic source language, I would
have scratched my head in disbelief. Now, 85 years later,
with no solution in sight, this can be tested (and
probably rejected) based on numerical analysis and it
would be silly not to explore it...

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 09:56:13 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:46:09 -0500
From: John Stojko <oko@worldnet.att.net>
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Status: OR

The samples of VMS writing were scrambled in transmission.
I corrected and am sending again.

Hello!
My name is John Stojko  Retired.

In my life I made many resolutions, so I made one before retirement.
I will give up my hobby  decipherment.
But because of my past sin I could not keep my promise. My hobby caused
this sin. I not only published one book in 1978 on VMS decipherment
Letters To Gods Eye but also wrote many articles on Phoenician and
Etruscan decipherment which were published in Ukrainian newspapers in
USA and Canada. People remember what I wrote and continue to question me
How and why I committed the sin. That is why I am on the mailing list
in this group.
I do not have my web page therefore I can not make reference to my
decipherment. But I intend to have one in the future. In mean time I
will give you few samples of my decipherment. I do not have means to
E-mail the original text therefore, I will give you translated text in
English. For the VMS writing I will use John Groves E-mail

John Groves e-mail dated Oct. 20, 1997. Subject  Title page.

Pg. Reff.      My decipherment in English
f8r.8;c       You will tell Oko (eye) of God.
F8r.13;c    Greeted than tell (she) loves Or if  in  the last letter
the tail is not in error  than the reading should be, Greeted than tell
(you) love.
F8r.21;F     Where did you told the great evil The last word I
corrected per my copy
F9r.10;c     Constantly in Step (you are) fighting for Gods religion
and asking to belief.

The Etruscan Inscription from Pyrgi, Italy, dated c. 500 BC.
Bellow I am giving shorter Etruscan inscription in English.

5.    Every one is bowing down, this my dear you did hear.
4. There is wound of life, because I myself have.
6.    I do see the past, that is and why it was, because
3. Dearest made the promise. I do see the greatness,
7.    but there is a grief, what is and was, because that come to an
end.
2. In respect we will exist, this you know,
8. you understood and will have sympathy for us.
1. Lewij (Lew), you are now in Gods Guidance (Boha  Vodi), this is
Gods
9. because everything is known (to God) and that will be.

Note: No this is not  mistake. Believe me, the original text I numbered
from 1 to 9 starting from top line as 1. The mistake was made 500 BC by
Etruscans. The Etruscans wrote in a very strange way  The way the
farmer ploughs the field.
That is why the 5-th line in original Etruscan inscription become 1-st
in English.

The Phoenician writing from Etruscan grave in Pyrgi.

1. I myself do see this, you lost time and position by the river.
2. Stay alive, learn and after battle you should go into hiding.
3. You will have yours years in Kyiv, take under account what I am
saying.
4. Son, it is important to avoid every where the greater force.
5. The foreigners are planning for you swift (fast) suffering.
6. They do see, you love to fight and come to the rescue. There is
involvement.
7. When you will not lead, listen to this. My
8. Kinsfolk are Kosars (Khozars) and this is obstacle for me.
9. Your kinsfolk are Kachals, this I learned.
10. We and Metani will lead (will be at the head) and you should tell
this as long as you are liv-
11. Ing.

By the way, the Vms, Phoenician and Etruscan inscriptions are written in
different
Alphabets but are written in the same language  Ukrainian.

Regards,    John



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 11:02:17 1997
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Subject: Re: Introduction
To: oko@worldnet.att.net (John Stojko)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:57:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <345D72E9.23B608AE@worldnet.att.net> from "John Stojko" at Nov 3, 97 01:44:57 am
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> Note: No this is not  mistake. Believe me, the original text I numbered
> from 1 to 9 starting from top line as 1. The mistake was made 500 BC by
> Etruscans. The Etruscans wrote in a very strange way =96 The way the
> farmer ploughs the field.

Boustrophedonically. 

So you're saying you've dechipered the VMs and it is written in
boustrophedonic Etruscan or Phonechian? 

Why is decipherment a sin? Or are you just being ironic?
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 09:35:10 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Julie Porter wrote:
> 
> I subscribe to a varent of the ignorant scribe theory. Mine is the
> incompitent scribe. Two guys are flunking scryptography so they fake the
> final exam. Of cource they could be attempting to copy aribic or some other
> language. 

	Here's my thought on the Ignorant Scribe Theory.  The fact that the
script is written in an easy, flowing, fluent manner indicates to me
that the scribes understood what they were writting.  

> I no longer think the VMs is an encyption of one of the big 3
> European langages. This after reading D'Impereo. 

	That's interesting!  I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking this.  

> Th hats on the figures and
> the portly look indicate a more ealy 15th century origion rather than a
> 16th or 17th date. 

	Interesting!!!  The relation of Voynich script to the early Renaissance
"humanist hand" also places it within the 15th century.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 09:35:11 1997
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robertjf wrote:
> 
> 2. In case you find the idea of the VMs as a mirror reversed arabic
> manuscript very strange, please note that the most common convention
> for japanese manga is to publish the english version mirror reversed,
> so the balloons spoken by the characters are read in the correct order.

	Mirror-reversed script???  Shades of Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks!!! 
:-)

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 10:14:08 1997
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Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> The above quote, dating from the turn of the century, is from the
> writings of an inmate of Charenton Hospital, an insane asylum. It was
> published in the 29 July 1904 issue of Le Petit Parisien, in a front
> page article by Jean Frollo entitled  "Chez les fous"  (With the
> insane). Alliteration and repetition are given as signs of insanity. And
> they are. Jean-Pierre Brisset, the subject of Decimo's book, was a
> railway-station master who wrote several books of ever increasing
> insanity. I have two of them, "la grammaire logique" and "les origines
> humaines", alas the two least insane of his works, but nevertheless
> quite unhinged. Brisset thought that languages never evolved and that
> God's Truth was everywhere in them, which he extracted by punning. Thus,
> once asked how he would interpret the word "israelite" he immediately
> retorted: "It is one of the most obvious: i - sra -elite = il sera elite
> (he will be elite)". And indeed, in informal spoken French "il sera
> elite" is pronounced exactly like "israelite".

	Do Brisset's books resemble Francis Dec's rants at:
http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/dec.html

	We've discussed Dec's schizophrenic rants, of course.  Dec's rants show
a *higher* second-order character entropy than normal English -- which
makes them un-Voynich-like.  

> I took those examples out of "Bali: Sekala dan Niskala", Volume II,
> by Fred Eiseman (Periplus Editions, Hong Kong, 1990). Even the title of
> the book is Voynich-like: sekala dan niskala (the visible and the
> invisible). But there is more. In the chapter on onomatopoeia, you learn
> that Balinese is rife with them, vividly illustrated like this (p.147):

[many excellent examples of onomatopoeia snipped.]

	You noted recently that Basque and Breton are also full of similar
things. Could you give an example or two from Breton?  That would be
interesting because Breton is an Indo-European language.  


Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 10:26:12 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:18:08 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: Takeshi Takahashi <voynich@study.club.or.jp>
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Takeshi Takahashi wrote:
> 
> Hello, My name is Takeshi Takahashi.

	Welcome!

> I have a web page of VMS in Japan.
> (In Japan, Voynich Ms is not well known.There is only one site in
> Japan.)
> http://www3.justnet.ne.jp/~ttakahashike/voynich/index.htm
> If your browser is supported Japanese, please visit and check it out.

	FWIW.  Your VMs page is listed in the Japan Yahoo:

http://ttt.yahoo.co.jp/Arts/Humanities/History/Archives

... so you're better-known than you think!  :-)

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 10:26:10 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:22:48 -0800
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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rmalek wrote:
> 
> I call into question the Enochian language.  We believe it to be a language
> because Dee says it is, and also writes translations for the words next to
> them.    When we strip this hear-say evidence from the text however, we find
> something quite similar to the problem at hand.  Fairly repetitive text with
> very few repeating words.  

	Interesting!  I'd never heard this.  Do you have any stastical analyses
of Enochian you could share with us?  


> I do not however quote this book [Kahn] as an absolute
> source when it comes to medieval cryptography.  Many of the ciphers were in
> use hundreds of years before they were published, and this includes several
> of the Trithemian type.  The common Vigenere table had been used by the
> caballists as early as 1140 a.d., and by the time the Voynich was written
> this type of cipher had progressed and mutated into some extremely
> sophisticated forms.  

	What about Ramon Lull (Lully, Llull, etc.)?  His interlocking wheels of
correspondances remind me of Vigenere wheels.  Lull also invented an
artifical language.  Could you enlighten us any more about him?

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 19:29:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:22:45 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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(an outing fest, is it?)

I was born the year of the Monkey, and I share my
birthday with Harpo Marx. I became interested in
languages and writing systems within my first
few weeks in primary school, and it was all the
way downhill since. I never went to kindergarten,
and, on my first day of school, did not know
A from B, and could not count very far (certainly
not beyond one, and I am not sure about "one").
One month after entering primary school, I turned
seven. Language + science-fiction novels did the
rest... leading to one of the most useless schools:
Les Langues Orientales, rue de Lille, in Paris.
Eventually migrated to Australia, thinking that,
being then as fluent in Japanese as I was in English...
It didn't work that way, I ended up teaching French,
Latin and Chinese in a posh private school, landed
a scholarship to do a PhD in linguistics, and it
got from bad to worse -- I *told* you it was all
the way downhill, didn't I? Fifteen years in academia,
followed by... how many... wait, I need these fingers
away from that keyboard... twelve already, thirteen
soon with Telecom Australia (you have three guesses
what business they are in). The only good thing there
is Net access. Do an Altavista search on yours faithfully
(that's spelt "Jacques Guy". Yes, only in English could
that happen: isn't Constantinople spelt "Istambul" and 
ghoti "fish"?). You will find out part of what I 
have been up to. Alas, the AltaVista database is far from up
to date. A search on "zikamu" only unveils the
very beginning of this fascinating languague, and one
on "beddy-byes" fails to reveal anything about the language 
of the sentient squids of Deneb V. Try "inoffensish"
instead.

That said, I shall disappear soon for some three weeks,
bound for that place where they speak a Voynich-like
language. And have what the U.S. (and Australia, and others)
sorely lack: a good 5-cent cigar.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  2 19:50:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:41:28 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Status: OR

I found this on soc.culture.french this morning. I had
never seen a text like that -- and I have seen a lot!
Some of it seems the result of a random cut-and-
paste from messages on soc.culture.french. Even part of
the subject line (Mscdex.exe [0/1]) has to be a cut-and-
paste. But the rest... I don't think it could be the 
output from a monkey-style random text generator.
Fascinating stuff. 


Subject: Frenchy Poo - Mscdex.exe [0/1]
   Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:09:23 -0800
   From: bifkin@nac.net (Joey Pedophile)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.french


Yo, muh Frenchy brothers. I quan-chi ya all...French Fries fuckin rock, 
biotch...that uhhhh french toast shit r0x0rz too. France was nice, until 
the french moved in. 
dernier pour les races.Pour la suffit d'avoir un A votre avis, augmente-
t-on paralllement son
intelligence ? Drle de "bonne corrlation", non ?

So, if any of ya sweet France biotches need some luvin' jus contact me
an 
muh sweet ass incest pedophilia necrophilia zoophilia family. We can get 
it on.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 18:26:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:31:06 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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rmalek wrote:

> I find nothing out of line with thinking of the Voynich as cipher, but
> everything wrong with considering languages that Europe was not exposed to
> by the time the Voynich was authored.  The Voynich author was neither well
> educated nor well travelled, and his chances of learning and writing in
> Malay are so astronomical that we should also consider alien visitation as a
> probable means of linguistic dissemination.  Perhaps the Voynich contains an
> early account of an alien abductee!

Hmmm. So what's this ignorant, uneducated scribe doing in posession of one of
the most advanced cyphers of his day? How did he get it? Did he make it up
himself? Is it so flawed that it cannot be deciphered?
That the manuscript we have originated in the middle ages isn't a poblem. Some
of it seems very neatly written, some less so (although it all seems to bunch up
around the pictures). The question is where the contents of the manuscript
originated.

On possible history is something like this;

  Original -> hurried copy -> VM -> us

...and I stringly suspect the the person who made the hurried copy couldn't
understand the words. The VMs we have are a tidied up version of the hurried
copy (or a copy thereof). Such a scheme coupld provide us with a vey high error
rate on the transcriptions we have now, when compared to the original document.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 21:08:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:00:58 -0600 (CST)
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From: "sulla"  <sulla@pop.globaldialog.com>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Ego Sum
Status: OR

I am Mark Sullivan--- a former Latin teacher, medievalist, and mystic who is 
working in a lab in Madison WI.  

Last November I put out on the list a suggested key with which I managed to 
extract some Latin words.  My labors ground to a halt over the summer as I 
enjoyed a scant few months of warm weather.  Winter is already here in 
Wisconsin, so I reckon it is time to start work on this project again.

I would like to hear from anyone who would like to help me tinker with my key.
I need a detail oriented puzzle solver to help me-- I tend to think in broad 
strokes.

Mark Sullivan, "sulla"
sulla@globaldialog.com

   


sulla@globaldialog.com



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 20:17:08 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <landinig@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:19:43 +0000
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Hi all,
Following the introductions season,  I am Gabriel Landini.
I was born in Uruguay (native Spanish speaker). I learned English 
when I was a child and some French at High School; as all other 
Spanish speakers I can read Portuguese and Italian without great 
trouble. I studied Dentistry (yes, Dentistry) in Montevideo and 
after graduation I decided that I was interested in Pathology. I was 
lucky enough to get a scholarship to go to Japan for 2 years as a 
research fellow in Oral Path. I had to make use of my mostly 
forgotten English and learn Japanese in the first 6 months at Kyushu 
University (taihen!). I then moved to Kagoshima University for the 
1.5 years left.  Those 2 years ended up being 5 (motto taihen!) since 
I had enroled in a PhD programme in Oral Pathology. 
At that time I got interested in image processing and analysis 
applied to histopathological images, specially oral cancer. Reading 
about the Mandelbrot set and fractal geometry, it occurred to me that 
fractals could be used to measure irregular features of microscopical 
cells and tissues. I then moved to Birmingham University (where I've 
been for the last 6 years) where I am working in precisely that area 
(Analytical Pathology). Mandelbrot's book introduced me into Zipf's 
laws (aha!) which I find quite amazing, and sequence analysis. I am 
interested in algorithmic music composition and its connections with 
fractal geometry (pink noise and all that jazz), Fourier 
analysis/synthesis, and Markovian models. I am also interested in DNA 
sequence analysis. By chance, I read Bennett's book and the chapter 
which introduced the VMS puzzled me. I have an interest in 
cryptology, but I know very little about it. About the vms, I think 
that it is genuine (not a fake), that it contains meaningful text and 
that it may be written in Latin or close dialect with non consistent 
abbreviations, but I have no proof at all :-( I think that the 
Voynich script codes for both letters and numbers (which is perhaps 
evident by the context) and that spaces between voynich words are 
"true" spaces.
I have a great difficulty trying to find a good test or proof for a
"solution" of the vms. How will we know that the right solution has 
been found?

I produced a interlinear file that included 2 different e-text 
versions of the manuscript and  decided to "read" the entire 
manuscript to correct the discrepancies. Fortunately Rene has joined 
this unusual task of proofreading the ms (Petersen copy) and came up 
with the name of "EVMT" project (which is more than a year old now) 
for which we expect a completion in some near (or not) future :-). 
The website for the project is:

http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/evmt.htm

Regards,

Gabriel






From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 22:05:07 1997
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Message-ID: <345E8F15.64A4@study.club.or.jp>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:57:25 +0900
From: Takeshi Takahashi <voynich@study.club.or.jp>
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I guess I would better talk about myself after reading a message
everyone write much about who he is. 

I am a student of Chiba University 2nd grade. I major in biology.

I was first interested in the Voynich Manuscript is by reading a book
7(?) years ago, in translated book of "The ENCYCLOPEDIA OF UNSOLVED
MYSTERIES" by Colin Wilson.
Last year, I obtained a microfilm of Voynich Ms. from Yale.

Seeing my page, much of the material I have has been collected from
other site and paper, I only have given the permission and translate to
Japanese. There is a low volume of study of my own.
Its purpose of my page is to introduce to Japan. 

For the present of my goal is to write the graduation thesis of Voynich
Manuscript from a viewpoint of botany. 

I read a book "THE ARCHAIC REVIVAL" by TERENCE McKENNA, which is very
interesting at any rate of its reliability.
I read a paper "The Voynich Manuscript -By Voynich?"by  Michael Barlow
(Cryptologia 10), but I don't want to believe his hypothesis.


I have some questions about them.

(1)Are there any possibility the origin of Voynich Ms. is South America,
like a "Shew Stone", Spanish took from Maya or Azteca?
With more detailed investigation about a merchant Dee went about...

Do you have any consensus to the origin of Voynich Ms.?

What do you think of LEO LEVITOV's book "SOLUTION OF THE VOYNICH
MANUSCRIPT"?

(2)Are there any relations between Voynich language and Enochian
language?

Is Enochian language perfect Artificial language or perfect hoax?

Please forgive my bad English and silliness.

Best wishes,
Takeshi Takahashi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 23:23:09 1997
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:25:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Introductions
In-Reply-To: <01bce80a$837f3440$f81637a6@madimi.internetMCI.COM>
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As I chuckled aloud while reading the end of the message below, Marilyn
Silva (a grammarian of note and self-described "funniest woman alive")
quipped that maybe instead of 'speaking in tongues,' the author of the
Voynich Ms was 'speaking in glyphs'.

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, rmalek wrote:

> Hi,
> My name is Rayman Malekei.
> 
> I find nothing out of line with thinking of the Voynich as cipher, but
> everything wrong with considering languages that Europe was not exposed to
> by the time the Voynich was authored.  The Voynich author was neither well
> educated nor well travelled, and his chances of learning and writing in
> Malay are so astronomical that we should also consider alien visitation as a
> probable means of linguistic dissemination.  Perhaps the Voynich contains an
> early account of an alien abductee!
> 
> 
> Regards,   Rayman
> 
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 03:38:08 1997
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Mark Sullivan wrote:

> Last November I put out on the list a suggested key with which
> I managed to extract some Latin words. [...] I would like to
> hear from anyone who would like to help me tinker with my key.

Despite the fact that some serious problems are related
with your proposed system (both encoding and decoding leave
a high degree of freedom) I still like it. The reason
is an observation by Bennett. He said that the Voynichese
value of h1 is closer to that of a normal language's h2,
and the h2 closer to what should be h3.
It is not easy to conceive how this would be possible.
If we think of entropy as 'uncertainty' then it
appears that in Voynichese we are more certain about
which character is going to come next than we are in
(say) Latin. We know as much, without seeing the previous
character, as we would in Latin, after having seen the
previous character. It's slightly easier to imagine
with Voynichese digraphs and Latin/English trigraphs.
Thus I think a method that turns characters
into chains of character pairs is a good start.
But I didn't get any further than that, and have other
things (you-know-what) that I want to finish first.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 04:32:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:31:14 -0800
To: voynich@rand.org
From: jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)
Subject: Re: I am ...
Status: OR

X-Attachments:

>Julie Porter wrote:
>>
>> I subscribe to a varent of the ignorant scribe theory. Mine is the
>> incompitent scribe. Two guys are flunking scryptography so they fake the
>> final exam. Of cource they could be attempting to copy aribic or some other
>> language.
>
>        Here's my thought on the Ignorant Scribe Theory.  The fact that the
>script is written in an easy, flowing, fluent manner indicates to me
>that the scribes understood what they were writting.

When I get a new pen, I often write large blocks of nonsence. Just let my
hand move without thought. This sometimes produces letters and phrases. I
do keep to character size things.
Sometimes people do things for the strangest reasons. I lost it during a
physics final, and decorated the paper with charactuers of Issac Newton,
Kepler and Mr no nose Tycho Brahe. Now if that paper still exists and
someone in the future finds it, what would they make of it. Speaking of
mistakes I note I left the www out of my web addr. The correct one is.
<http://www.webo.com/jporter>. I also note I must have been in the 18th c.
as I wrote if for is. Obviously that was a long s. Sorry to those here not
native in english. I was tought to read via a phonetic system. Learned to
read real good. Can not spell at all.

>
>> I no longer think the VMs is an encyption of one of the big 3
>> European langages. This after reading D'Impereo.
>
>        That's interesting!  I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking this.
>
The short version as told to me by Mr S. Holmes. Is that the dog did not
bark. If a subtitution on mathematical solution existed. The standard
attack would have come up with more tangible results. This is not to say
that the ms. is not cypher. If it is then it is either incredibly simple.
Or extreamly complex. It could be code. Finding the codebook could be
diffucalt though.
So using Holmean logic the simplest solution is that it is more likely
language.
However, if it was a major language the linguists would have some stats
themselves. There does seem to be structure to the presentation, that is
the rosethorn that seem to ensnare the logical. Now I am going to have to
go back to D'Impereo and see why I thought the above.


>> Th hats on the figures and
>> the portly look indicate a more early 15th century origion rather than a
>> 16th or 17th date.
>
>        Interesting!!!  The relation of Voynich script to the early Renaissance
>"humanist hand" also places it within the 15th century.
>
>Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 04:47:07 1997
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	Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:43:34 +0900 (JST)
Message-ID: <345EEE58.63E8@study.club.or.jp>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 18:43:52 +0900
From: Takeshi Takahashi <voynich@study.club.or.jp>
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To: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
CC: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Voynich Questions and a little bit of myself
References: <m0xSatM-0000aFC@crash.cts.com>
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Adams Douglas wrote:
> 
> Ohayo! I thought I'd take a moment to assist you with your English. I fonud
> such currection from native speakers very helpful when I was learning
> Russian. I ahve also gotten favorable comments from several Japanese
> friends here in San Diego as to my English diction and grammar and how helpful
> my suggestions have been to them.
> 
> Please don't take these corrections as negative criticism. I apologize in
> advance if you are offended by this.
> 
> > I guess I would better talk about myself after reading a message
> > everyone write much about who he is.
> 
> Better:
>         "I guess I had better talk..." or "I guess I should talk..."
> 
>         "after everyone wrote so much about who they are." or "after
>         reading all these messages."
> 
> > I am a student of Chiba University 2nd grade. I major in biology.
>                  ^^
> 
> Although "of" is gramatically correct, most native speakers say "at", as in
> it's the current place you are located. Westerners don't usually think
> of being taught "by" a school or university ("of Chiba University") but are
> "attending" it ("going to Chiba University" or "at Chiba University").
> 
> > I was first interested in the Voynich Manuscript is by reading a book
>     ^^^^^^^^^                                      ^^^^^
>    <first became>                                 <after>
> 
> > 7(?) years ago, in translated book of "The ENCYCLOPEDIA OF UNSOLVED
>                   "in a translation of"
> 
> > Last year, I obtained a microfilm of Voynich Ms. from Yale.
>                                       ^
>                                     <the>
> 
> > Seeing my page, much of the material I have has been collected from
> "Much of the material you see on my page has been collected from"
> 
> > other site and paper, I only have given the permission and translate to
> "other sites and papers. I only have been given permission to translate
>  the VMs into"
> 
> > Japanese. There is a low volume of study of my own.
>                                           "on my own"
> 
> But that's still awkward. A better construction would be "I have little
> time to study" or "I don't do much studying of the VMs".
> 
> > Its purpose of my page is to introduce to Japan.
>  "The"                                  ^"it" or "the VMs".
> 
> or "Its [your page's] purpose is to introduce the VMs to Japan."
> 
> > For the present of my goal is to write the graduation thesis of Voynich
>                   ^^^^^                  ^^^                     ^
>                   "my"               "a" or "my"               <the>
> 
> > Manuscript from a viewpoint of botany.
>              "from the viewpoint of botany" or "from a botanical viewpoint"
> 
> > I read a book "THE ARCHAIC REVIVAL" by TERENCE McKENNA, which is very
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   "I read" or "I read the book"
> 
> > interesting at any rate of its reliability.
>               "at least in its reliability" or "at any rate it seems
>               reliable"
> 
> > I read a paper "The Voynich Manuscript -By Voynich?"by  Michael Barlow
>    (see above)
> 
> > (1)Are there any possibility the origin of Voynich Ms. is South America,
>      "Is there", you'd use "Are" if "possibility" was plural; "Are there
>      any possibilities..."
> 
> > like a "Shew Stone", Spanish took from Maya or Azteca?
>                       ^
>              "which the" or "that the"
> 
> > With more detailed investigation about a merchant Dee went about...
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                          I don't understand this. Are you saying Dee was
>                          a merchant?

Sorry, The sentence I intended was:
Did Dee have any relations to the particular merchant who deal with rare
goods? 

> 
> > Do you have any consensus to the origin of Voynich Ms.?
>                           "as to"
> 
> > What do you think of LEO LEVITOV's book "SOLUTION OF THE VOYNICH
> > MANUSCRIPT"?
> 
> This is a well-written sentence. Levitov has been completely discredited by
> Jaques Guy.
> 
> > (2)Are there any relations between Voynich language and Enochian
>                                     ^"the"               ^"the"
> 
> > Is Enochian language perfect Artificial language or perfect hoax?
>     ^"the"            ^"a" or "the"                  ^"a" or "the"
> Nice alliteration!
> 
> BTW, you could also say "Is Enochian the perfect language or a perfect
> hoax?"
> 
> > Please forgive my bad English and silliness.
> Nothing to forgive. You're doing very well. Please accept my corrections in
> the spirit in which they are offered.
> 
> Cheers,
> -Adams Douglas
>  San Diego, CA
> >
> >
Thank you ever so much for assisting my English.
I realize that the task must have taken a great deal of your precious
time.

I want to try hard to write more good English.

Hontouni arigatou gozaimasu
Best wishes,
Takeshi Takahashi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 05:56:08 1997
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Subject: Re: Voynich Questions and a little bit of myself
To: voynich@rand.org (Voynich Manuscript List)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:55:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
In-Reply-To: <345EEE58.63E8@study.club.or.jp> from "Takeshi Takahashi" at Nov 4, 97 06:43:52 pm
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> Adams Douglas wrote:
> > 
> > Ohayo! I thought I'd take a moment to assist you with your English. I fonud

Sorry folks. I forgot to tell Mr. Takahashi not to reply to the group if he
replied to my private grammar post. My fault. 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled bandwidth. :)
-Adams


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 09:11:07 1997
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Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> Not at all. Here is an example of Brisset's (I removed the
> accents, as I don't know if your readers cope with them):
> 
> "you you you! you you you! you you you! joie! jeu!
> jour! Youppipi! salute pere! Youpiter. Jupiter.
> Youddidi! salut les didi!" Les premiers hommes s'appelaient
> "Didi, di". Nous avons conserve ce mot pour interpeller
> ceux qui nous sont le plus chers. [proof: English "dear"!]
> Heureux sont ceux qui sont des Dii, car ils sont les dieux!

	Here you see words related haphazardly, sometimes by sound, sometimes
by meaning.  I read some of *Creativity: The Magical Synthesis* by
Silvano Arieti [one of Toresella's ref's on insanity].  Arieti was a
well-known psychiatrist.  He said that this way of talking, relating
words by a mixture of sound and meaning, is typical of schizophrenic
language.  You do see it in Dec's rants.  

	FWIW.  Arieti talked about Lombroso and his theory of genius being
related to insanity.  Arieti's book is an attempt at a Freudian theory
of creativity.  In Freudian theory, you have "primary-process thinking",
the kind of thinking observed in dreams, and "secondary-process
thinking", normal waking thinking that makes much more use of natural
language and logic.  Arieti thinks that creativity involves using
primary-process thinking and secondary-process thinking together.  

	Primary-process thinking is also observed in the speech and
hallucinations of psychotics.  Arieti says that Lombroso was right in
observing that primary-process thinking (dream-like thinking) is
involved in creativity, but the connection with insanity doesn't go any
further than that.  

	That's consistent with what people on the Voylist said.  The art of the
insane isn't all that different from the art of the sane.  Or, perhaps
genius always involves a certain amount of insanity.

Dennis


> 
> 
> >         You noted recently that Basque and Breton are also full of similar
> > things. Could you give an example or two from Breton?
> 
> I have to dig out the reference. It was not in a Breton manual,
> but in one of the many books I have on minorities in France.

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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:16:45 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Fw: Ego Sum
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: sulla <sulla@globaldialog.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 04, 1997 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Ego Sum


>>I would like to hear from anyone who would like to help me tinker with my
>key.
>>I need a detail oriented puzzle solver to help me-- I tend to think in
>broad
>>strokes.
>
>Hi Mark,
>
>I too believe the larger sum of the labels to be in Latin, but I missed
>reading your key.  I would be more than happy to take a look at it to see
>whether or not I can be of any assistance.
>
>
>Regards,   Rayman
>

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 13:47:09 1997
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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:17:04 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Fw: Introductions
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: mikclrk@ibm.net <mikclrk@ibm.net>
Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Introductions


>>> I find nothing out of line with thinking of the Voynich as cipher, but
>>> everything wrong with considering languages that Europe was not exposed
>to
>>> by the time the Voynich was authored.  The Voynich author was neither
>well
>>> educated nor well travelled, and his chances of learning and writing in
>>> Malay are so astronomical that we should also consider alien visitation
>as a
>>> probable means of linguistic dissemination.  Perhaps the Voynich
contains
>an
>>> early account of an alien abductee!
>>
>>Hmmm. So what's this ignorant, uneducated scribe doing in posession of one
>of
>>the most advanced cyphers of his day? How did he get it? Did he make it up
>>himself? Is it so flawed that it cannot be deciphered?
>.
>
>
>The scribal question is one of intense debate, but I offer my three cents
>worth, inflation included.  Scribes were known to make several copies, one
>to satisfy the request, one to add to the abbey's library, one for personal
>use, and one for sale to supplement their meager income.  This was a
minimum
>copy standard for professional scribes, and when we add more than one
scribe
>we multiply these numbers dramatically.  With the expected copies of this
>book in circulation, why hasn't the Voynich script lived beyond a single
>copy?  Why are other pages or versions not extant?  Why didn't other
scribes
>duplicate the work to add to their collections or to sell?  Simply because
>this did not happen.  Had the Voynich ever been deemed important enough to
>employ the service of scribes, there would be Voyniches and interpretations
>of Voyniches.
>
>Just as there is no physical proof that the Voynich is a scribal copy,
there
>is no proof that it is not, save the flowing nature of the text, the
>consistent style of the watercolors, the natural flow and feel of the
>cipher, etc.  The argument that an original author would have been able to
>produce this work without corrections has been discussed and refuted.
There
>are visible corrections in several places in the manuscript, and the flow
of
>script can be easily attributed to the use of worksheets before the final
>application to the pages.  Few of the drawings are questionable when it
>comes to what was drawn first, and text is fitted into the blanks as well
as
>a first-time writer may have done.  Sometimes the text is very cramped
>toward the end.  A scribe could have looked at the original and avoided
this
>error.
>
>Foliation was also brought into question, for which I offered a very
>plausible answer.  Only an extreme few would argue against the herbal
>section as first in authorship, and only toward the end of the herbal do
>wierd things begin to happen with foliation.  These paginal mixsions are in
>accordance with the educational curriculum of a pre-medical student of the
>time.  My contention is that the Voynich started out as an herbal, but with
>education of the author finally progressed into other realms consistent
with
>the course curriculum of a pre-med student.  The order of pages beyond this
>point is a very good question, and cannot necessarily be resolved by cipher
>"hands".  It does however become clear that pages of another nature were
>inserted between herbal pages to coincide or backup the information
>contained in those pages.  This does not necessarily signify the work of an
>ignorant scribe, but only the work of an intelligent individual trying to
>make sense of his ongoing education.
>
>>That the manuscript we have originated in the middle ages isn't a poblem.
>Some
>>of it seems very neatly written, some less so (although it all seems to
>bunch up
>>around the pictures). The question is where the contents of the manuscript
>>originated
>
>Your primary question of location of origin is in this group's primary
>interest to answer.  Many of us use our specific skills to try and answer
>this question, while some let their minds wander beyond the reality of the
>facts presented.  What we do know is that the script can be dated with some
>accuracy between 1450 and 1550, giving us a 100 year search radius.  We
know
>the script is Latin in origin, devoid of Greek influences, and therefore
>Western Christian world in origin.  (It is important to eliminate Greek
>tongues because of special sects within this region.)  While the script is
>Latin in semblance, we cannot conclude the underlying language is Latin, so
>the actual language is open to debate.  We can narrow the search radius if
>we take into account identification of plants that put the manuscript
beyond
>1493.
>
>The question of origin is still not answered, but at least narrowed down to
>the Catholic Christian world of 1493 - 1550, i.e., Western Europe.  Those
>who prefer an earlier 15th century date ignore the plant evidence.  We are
>therefore resigned to look in the last part of the 15th century and first
>half of the 16th century for answers, which will only come when this finite
>time period has been fully explored.
>
>My personal research has yielded pages containing references to "Kengs
>Gonroe", a person quite hated by the author.  Because of these finds I must
>narrow my dating to his reign, and specifically to a time in history when
>Henry published his "Six Articles", the cause of the offensive remarks made
>by the author.  The date was 1538.
>
>If the author is who I believe him to be, he published works in line with
>the Voynich from 1547 on, a date which marks the death of King Henry and
his
>Six Articles.  Our author published an herbal and several astronomicals, as
>well as almanacs defining the exact times and dates that surgery and other
>medical tasks were to be performed.  This author did in fact publish every
>aspect of the Voynich which we now believe to be its corpus.
>
>In this sense I do believe the Voynich to be a copy, but only a copy of the
>mind that created it.
>
>
>Regards,   Rayman
>
>
>
>
>

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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:17:21 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Fw: Introductions
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: Introductions


>>> I call into question the Enochian language.  We believe it to be a
>language
>>> because Dee says it is, and also writes translations for the words next
>to
>>> them.    When we strip this hear-say evidence from the text however, we
>find
>>> something quite similar to the problem at hand.  Fairly repetitive text
>with
>>> very few repeating words.
>>
>> Interesting!  I'd never heard this.  Do you have any stastical analyses
>>of Enochian you could share with us?
>
>
>I have three back-up tapes that represent some 2,000 hours of work I did
>between 1988 and 1992 on this subject.  My Colorado drive decided to eat
>these tapes, and although I have been able to repair the breaks, they will
>no longer read because the directory is no longer intact.  The data
>requested by Gabriel and some others is on these tapes, so I have sought
out
>someone who can repair and remove the information, only to find the cost of
>such an operation quite out of line with my present budget.  If anyone
knows
>of a computerized source for Enochian, it would take a minimal amount of
>time to proof from the originals and reconstruct my line of thought from
>this time period.
>
>>> I do not however quote this book [Kahn] as an absolute
>>> source when it comes to medieval cryptography.  Many of the ciphers were
>in
>>> use hundreds of years before they were published, and this includes
>several
>>> of the Trithemian type.  The common Vigenere table had been used by the
>>> caballists as early as 1140 a.d., and by the time the Voynich was
written
>>> this type of cipher had progressed and mutated into some extremely
>>> sophisticated forms.
>>
>> What about Ramon Lull (Lully, Llull, etc.)?  His interlocking wheels of
>>correspondances remind me of Vigenere wheels.  Lull also invented an
>>artifical language.  Could you enlighten us any more about him?
>
>I have no original manuscripts from Lully, but he does get quoted many
times
>by other authors I have studied, and fits in with the group of individuals
I
>consider to be at the heart of this type of communication.  What is
>interesting about those who shared the knowledge is that political,
>religious and national boundaries had no meaning to them during a time when
>only one religion and power structure dominated the known world.  Their
>interests were as scientific as their belief systems allowed, and cipher
was
>absolutely necessary to communicate observations and discoveries without
>fear of heresy charges.  It was only with the advent of Lutheranism and the
>Protestant theocratic division that many of these systems came to light.
>The printing press aided in duplication of manuscripts meant for the
>"elite".  Those in Protestant countries began to write more openly, but
>those in Catholic countries could not read the banned books, so the ciphers
>began to show up in published texts using methods of adornment which
>followed the tradition of verbal transferance.  The discussion of "keys"
>increased, and any manuscript which includes this discussion is suspect.
>
>What is interesting about this line of history is that these ciphers did
not
>become popular until the works of Trithemius were produced at the turn of
>the 16th century, and then their popularity was primarily limited to
>Protestant countries.  Trithemius wrote of systems used for centuries among
>the Catholic scribes, and revealed one major system that we have failed to
>interpret to this day - a system of encipherment based on the hour, day,
>week and month that a work was produced.  Once someone knew the
astrological
>mathematics that underly the system, all that is needed is a date and hour
>on the page that is transmitted.  Although we still do not understand the
>mechanism, we find references to this system throughout the 16th century,
>sometimes very heavy references, such as those in the angelic works of Dr.
>John Dee.  Logic tells me that this mathematical scheme is the one behind
>the Enochian "language".  I also understand that this subject is dealt with
>in Lully's works to some extent.
>
>My primary problem with other observers lies in the dating of the Voynich.
>We all agree that the manuscript should not be dated any later than 1550,
>but my dating presses this scope to the near end.  I place it between 1538
>and 1547, no later, but possibly a couple of years earlier.  As with all
>research in the making, I have a feeling for the underlying history, but
not
>enough yet to prove beyond doubt my assumptions are correct.  More than
>that, I try not to prove my assumptions, but continue testing and only
>secretly hope that my assumptions are true.  There is some unwritten rule
>about science that says that when we try to prove assumptions, we are no
>longer objective in our research.  We only test in certain directions until
>those directions prove to be deadends, and then we go on to other probable
>directions, based on our data.
>
>If this line of thinking is correct however, this is where it would lead.
>This particular type of cipher would not have been used before 1506 or
after
>1604, and was only used by a few people near the court of England.  The few
>plants that demonstrate new world origin would not have been available to
>Spain before 1493, and not available to England until 1518.  The author was
>pre-med, and no further advanced in his education when he wrote the
Voynich.
>The author read latin versions of Greek herbals and texts, but was not
>familiar enough with the Greek language to incorporate its symbology.  The
>author was not highly skilled in mathematics, which means he was not
>enrolled in his college for a period of longer than four years.  Higher
>mathematics was not required for medical students, and they studied the
>basic mathematics of astrology only in their last two years because it was
>necessary in order to compose adequate pharmaceuticals.  (See Chaucer on
how
>basic this education could have been.)  The author would have had to have
>close contact with someone near the court in order to gain knowledge of
this
>cipher, but this does not mean he was of the court.  The use of the cipher
>does not indicate an intimate knowledge of the cipher, only a cursory
>knowledge.  This is indicated by the low number of "hands" found in the
>Voynich.  Every character found in Voynich script can be found in late 15th
>century and early 16th century latin manuscripts.
>
>I realize that some of my assumptions cannot be proved beyond doubt, even
>after the cipher is revealed.  I also have a difficult time getting over
the
>"Dee" connection with this manuscript, even though I do not believe he had
>anything to do with its authorship.  He may have been the one that provided
>the cipher, and may have owned the manuscript, but he must have obtained it
>only because he knew of its existence.  Dee himself would not have been
able
>to write this system until somewhere after 1535, however.
>
>It can get very confusing at times, but I am tracking a single elusive
>element, without having to track an entire world of languages.  My
time-line
>is higher than most, but were there any real technological changes between
>the 15th and 16th century?  Why do farmers in Ilinois towns dress like
their
>fathers did in the 40's?  Given the age of works before publications,
>coupled with the fact that printers re-used engravings in various books, I
>find it difficult to ascertain a manuscript's age based only on clothing.
>We know the clothing is 15th century Italian, but the books circulating in
>the 16th century were also 15th century.  Late 15th century, early 16th
>century, the Voynich says later than 1493 and not later than 1550.  I am in
>the outfield of the ballpark, but I am one of the few that views the the
>game from the field and not watching from the stands.
>
>
>Regards,   Rayman
>
>
>
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Dennis
>

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I am also among the non-crypto crowd, but without prejudice.  I did
read a good chunk of "the Codebreakers" (and still do sometimes), but
I had heard about the Voynich before that and have been lurking among
you with much enjoyment: nothing plays quite like a few dozen good
heads sweating over a worthy puzzle! My background is mostly Physics
and Computation and I dabble in Developmental Biology from the
artificial life perspective. For a living I do systems management at my
local ISP and write on whathaveyou for a Portuguese magazine. I do
come from Portugal and can read most of the latin "dialects".

Because I hardly ever pay my 2 cents to the discussion I would like to
take this opportunity to fire a couple of rounds at your patience.

As far as my take on the VMS I still side with the Artificial Language
crowd; maybe not the most plausible but, at least to me, the most
interesting of possibilities. Let me try and explain what I mean. I am
interested in the VMS as an "object of fiction" both because I have a
half-baked story in which it plays a role and because the story spells
out a theory about it which considers the possibility that it is a work
of fiction. I don't mean by this that it is some sort of novel
but much more an attempt to describe a nonexistent society, much
like the fake encyclopedias in Jorge Luis Borges "Tlon, Uqbar, Urbis
Tertius", for those who've read it. Think for a moment of More's original
Utopia with its apocryphal quotations of utopian "poetry", quips about
language reform and the alphabet, the resort to greek funny names
and such. Now raise that to a much higher power and try to imagine how you
would go about leaving the most persuasive testemonial to a rational
endeavour of unprecedent ambition with a view to advocating social
(perhaps religious) reform of some radical nature. Movements of this
type flourished during the middle ages (see Norman Kohn "The Pursuit of
the Millenium" or J. Huyzinga's "Waneing of the Middle Ages") but went
underground with the Renaissance/Reformation. If genuine the VMS
coexisted historically with this type of eloquent yet cryptic advocacy.
It might actually date from one generation after More for all we know.
Any way you look at it the VMS gave a couple of guys was a lot of work
which to me sounds like some pretty strong motivation was at work behind
its its conception.

The artificial language hypothesis deserves a bit more consideration
than it has gotten so far, in my humble opinion. I say this because
from reading the delighful "Les Fous du Language" you get some historical
perspective in the evolution of the motivations behind the rationalization
of language. I am interested in what went on between Hildegard's "Lingua
Ignota" and Llull's "Ars Magna" in particular. The former had simply the
avowed purpose of not being understood by males while the latter was
perhaps the first instance of a "logical language" in which the
morphological structure would in some sense correlate with the
semantics. My interpretation of Bennett's h2/h3 paradox which Rene
just reminded us of, is that the VMS may in this way exhibit an early
attempt to achieve such higher order correlation. Any one ever heard of
John Wilkes?

If this is the case "decyphering the VMS" becomes a completely different
problem: that of interpreting a pre-Leibnitzian "logical language" or
an Art of Memory of some type. Not much easier, I am afraid.
Anyway, thought I'd mention it.

-Joao Leao







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From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 14:14:08 1997
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In-Reply-To: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
        "Fw: Introductions" (Nov  4, 11:17am)
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In line with what I just said and with Rayman's very interesting observations
with which I otherwise fully concur let me point out that Ramon Llull never
really resorted to cyphering in his known works (and there are over 100!).
His Ars Magna was something of a particularly different nature and, quite
on the contrary, very explicit! For those not familiar with him Llull was
a mystic whose life task was the conversion of moslems to the Christian
fate via rational argument. Martin Gardner among others points him out as
one of the fore fathers of artificial intelligence (in his book "Logical
Machines").

-Joao


On Nov 4, 11:17am, rmalek wrote:
> Subject: Fw: Introductions
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
> To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
> Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 6:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Introductions
>
>
...
>... by the time the Voynich was
> written
> >>> this type of cipher had progressed and mutated into some extremely
> >>> sophisticated forms.
> >>
> >> What about Ramon Lull (Lully, Llull, etc.)?  His interlocking wheels of
> >>correspondances remind me of Vigenere wheels.  Lull also invented an
> >>artifical language.  Could you enlighten us any more about him?
> >
> >I have no original manuscripts from Lully, but he does get quoted many
> times
> >by other authors I have studied, and fits in with the group of individuals
> I
> >consider to be at the heart of this type of communication.  What is
> >interesting about those who shared the knowledge is that political,
> >religious and national boundaries had no meaning to them during a time when
> >only one religion and power structure dominated the known world.  Their
> >interests were as scientific as their belief systems allowed, and cipher
> was
> >absolutely necessary to communicate observations and discoveries without
> >fear of heresy charges.  It was only with the advent of Lutheranism and the
> >Protestant theocratic division that many of these systems came to light.
> >The printing press aided in duplication of manuscripts meant for the
> >"elite".  Those in Protestant countries began to write more openly, but
> >those in Catholic countries could not read the banned books, so the ciphers
> >began to show up in published texts using methods of adornment which
> >followed the tradition of verbal transferance.  The discussion of "keys"
> >increased, and any manuscript which includes this discussion is suspect.
> >
...
> >
> >Regards,   Rayman
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>Dennis
> >
>-- End of excerpt from rmalek



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From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 14:59:10 1997
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Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:

> John,
>
> since you have studied Phoenician, have you also studied the equivalent
> syllabaries of ancient Arabic and ancient Sanskrit? Have you ever examined
> the Cree syllabary of North America?
>
> I have seen the evidence, actually with the Blackfoot Syllabarium (related
> to Cree, but I figured since I'd never heard of it before then, it would
> be easier to find Cree), and I'd love to get another mind in on this.
>
> warm regards, moonhaw

  Hi Dan!

No I did not studied Arabic. More than 30 years ago I began to sudy Sunscrit,
but
after while I give up. No I did not study Cree syllabary of North America.
But, after
publishing my book on VMS, I received many different  writings. As an example
I am
sending you one example of North American writing.

 About 12 years ago I got book Missing Links Discovered In Assyrian Tablets
by Raymond Capt M.A., published by Artisan Sales in California. On pg. 155
there was Phoenician writing which he call Las Lunnas Decaloque from New
Mexico.
After while, I deciphered.
 I am giving translation of the Las Lunnas writing in English. The translation
is not idiomatic but I believe is understandable. The language is the same as
in Voynich and Etruscan writing  Ukrainian.

                            Las Lunnas inscription
1. The greatness is not understood to join the sphere (Level, group, unit) of
spirituality.
   It seems they welcoming with believes
2. and by imagination from time to time are joining and the enlightened are
telling to
   family (relative) and is echoing.
3. I know how to call them from woods and that is all my accomplishment. I am
   teaching and frightening them.  To imagine the world,
4. this is not understandable by Iishi (Yishi). I just am teaching Khors (see
note), They
    welcoming the order
5. of the soul and the aim, but are imagining as a goose. I am teaching the
greatness,
   they are welcoming and seems they grasp but higher (teaching) what I am
saying
6. do not believe and are waiting not understanding what I told them. They are
waiting
   for courage but to join the sphere (group) are avoiding.
7. They wished and I am teaching imagination of trinity and to picture the
need of
   believe to the body. The imagination come to the dead end. They imagining
8. and avoiding (by saying) we are workers, the miracles are for God. Can you
imagine
   my disappointment and the essence of workers.
9. Although I am in the sphere, I am a worker.
NOTE: Khor = religious philosopher or teacher in pre-Christian religion in
Ukraine.

     john


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov  3 20:05:11 1997
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Subject: VMS: ravings: Dec, Brisset
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Dennis wrote:
 
>         Do Brisset's books resemble Francis Dec's rants at:
> http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/dec.html

Not at all. Here is an example of Brisset's (I removed the
accents, as I don't know if your readers cope with them):

On n'avait aucune idee de la duree du temps. Le soleil se
montrait et s'en allait, sans qu'on put se l'expliquer
autrement que par une volonte personnelle. Il etait donc
attendu avec impatience. S'il allait ne pas venir! Enfin
le voila qui s'annonce, entendez les cris de bonheur:
"you you you! you you you! you you you! joie! jeu!
jour! Youppipi! salute pere! Youpiter. Jupiter.
Youddidi! salut les didi!" Les premiers hommes s'appelaient
"Didi, di". Nous avons conserve ce mot pour interpeller
ceux qui nous sont le plus chers. [proof: English "dear"!]
Heureux sont ceux qui sont des Dii, car ils sont les dieux!

 
>         You noted recently that Basque and Breton are also full of similar
> things. Could you give an example or two from Breton?

I have to dig out the reference. It was not in a Breton manual,
but in one of the many books I have on minorities in France.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov  4 17:17:08 1997
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Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> Disagree. Brisset's ravings make sense: he has built
> a whole, internally consistent, history of human
> origins (we do not descend from apes, but from frogs),
> on the basis of punning. If you read a few pages, you
> emerge in a state of dizziness, as if your very own
> rational faculties were impaired. The whole thing is
> insane, but logically insane, like, say, Terry Pratchett's
> disc world. It holds together nicely if you ignore
> every contradictory outside evidence.

	Good point.  IIRC, paranoid schizophrenics are the ones who build
logical, internally consistent worldviews.  So maybe Brisset was a
paranoid schizophrenic and Dec was a plain schizophrenic.  

	So, the author(s) of the VMs would have been paranoid schizophrenics,
too.  Folie a` deux?  ;-)

> In fact, having for the first time read Claude
> Levi-Strauss, I see little difference between
> him and Brisset. Brisset has only chosen  more
> easily refutable hypotheses, patently insane.
> But both mistake word associations for logical
> associations.

	Wow!  I haven't yet read Levi-Strauss.  

Dennis

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Dennis wrote:
> this way of talking, relating
> words by a mixture of sound and meaning, is typical of schizophrenic
> language.  

Agree.

> You do see it in Dec's rants.

Disagree. Brisset's ravings make sense: he has built
a whole, internally consistent, history of human
origins (we do not descend from apes, but from frogs),
on the basis of punning. If you read a few pages, you
emerge in a state of dizziness, as if your very own
rational faculties were impaired. The whole thing is
insane, but logically insane, like, say, Terry Pratchett's
disc world. It holds together nicely if you ignore
every contradictory outside evidence.

Dec's ravings, however, soon cease to make sense.
Rather, they are the same old saw, quite short,
repeated again and again and again under slightly
different wordings. 

There is a logical thread in Brisset's ranting,
there is none in Dec's.

In fact, having for the first time read Claude
Levi-Strauss, I see little difference between
him and Brisset. Brisset has only chosen  more
easily refutable hypotheses, patently insane.
But both mistake word associations for logical
associations.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov  5 20:32:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:25:45 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Introductions
To: Joao Leao <leao@iridium.std.com>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>In line with what I just said and with Rayman's very interesting
observations
>with which I otherwise fully concur let me point out that Ramon Llull never
>really resorted to cyphering in his known works (and there are over 100!).
>His Ars Magna was something of a particularly different nature and, quite
>on the contrary, very explicit! For those not familiar with him Llull was
>a mystic whose life task was the conversion of moslems to the Christian
>fate via rational argument. Martin Gardner among others points him out as
>one of the fore fathers of artificial intelligence (in his book "Logical
>Machines").


Here you hit on one of the most interesting problems of the time period when
you state unequivocably that Ramond Lully never resorted to cypher.  This
may well be true, but on the other hand, the type of cypher I was discussing
was designed to be invisible to the discerning eye.  Did you ever wonder why
copies of Trithemius' books were worth a fortune, yet there are no examples
of any practical useage of his cyphers?

Only by reading suspect manuscripts with an ear for the cryptic can a
suspicion be roused, and even then it must be qualified.  The best I can say
for sure is that to my knowledge Lully never wrote in cypher, but on the
other hand he is much quoted by those who did, which warrants a closer look.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov  6 05:59:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 03:57:13 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Solution
To: sulla <sulla@globaldialog.com>
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>Ray:
>Below is the article I put on the list last Thanksgiving.


Thanks for the info.  I will try to study it very hard in the next few days
and get back to you with some thoughts.

Briefly -

>long, with few repetions, I discount a code. The code book would be far
longer
>than the encoded work. It would not be practical. Rather, it appears
obvious
>that the key can be written on a single page from memory. My assumption is
that
>the key is probably simple, but the implementation is complex. In support
of
>this is the fact that there are few erasures. This indicates not that the
text
>was encoded as written, but that it was composed, and copied. This leads me
to
>expect substantial security features, and my results bear this out.

These are my thoughts exactly.  The lack of major repitition of ideas in
such a long text also rules out any artificial language, although it does
not rule out a contrived or convoluted language, not unlike pig-latin.  (It
is my opinion that language has much to do with the Voynich security, but I
do not however believe the language is contrived.)

>Per Kahn, the state of the art in 1600 was the nomenclator...

Correctly, the "state of the art" in the Catholic world was the nomenclator.
In 1600 there were two Christian worlds and two distinct paths of
development.

>The observation that there are parallel word fragments in vertical rows,
indicates to me that the
>scribe was running his eye across a table, left to right, or top to bottom,
>picking out values in roughly the same point of the table, in relationship
to
>the length of the line. We are dealing here with a table cipher.


This is one way of looking at several different types of cipher, not just
the nomenclator.  I am at once reminded of Brumbaugh's "number boxes".
Brumbaugh deciphered several labels, and I believe he actually got a few of
them correct by my estimation.  Unfortunately both the "number box" and the
nomenclator have the misfortune of "preset values", meaning that the
numerical value of the characters remains stagnant and does not change as
the cipher progresses.  Even if we increased the nomenclator block to a
12x12, the repetitions in such a volume of text would become apparent, and
the key would become clear soon afterward.  By 1600 much of the mathematical
world had a fair grasp on the concept of decipherment, and I believe if you
check your history you will find that the nomenclator ciphers were routinely
read by the opposing side by this time.

Your point about parallel word fragments in vertical rows is a very valid
one however, and something I have paid particular attention to.  They appear
to be related to line length as well, and if you use a modified-standard
character set to represent the Voynich characters (a set of 23 or 24
character forms versus 36), the line lengths in several sections of the
pages develop numerical significance.  This is far more than chance, and
therefore indicative of the system in use.  (Actually it is probably more
indicative of a pattern the author fell into to keep track of his place in
the cipher.)

>CONSTRUCTING A KEY. Since there are around 36 characters, ....

I believe it will be discovered that the number of actual characters is far
less than 36.  We have had several discussions so far about certain
characters and the evidence of less than clear demarcations between them.
How would a character set of 23 or 24 change your grid key?

> Using this model, each letter value would be represented by 25
combinations...

This number of combinations is less than the standard Vigenere table of our
day produces, and unfortunately would be highly visible in thousands of
characters of text.  Brumbaugh's system allowed 10 combinations for each
letter value, which worked only so far.  What he discovered was that the
text he got out was almost as repetitious as the Voynich cipher text, and
only slightly more intelligible.  The low degree of word repetition in the
Voynich indicates an active system that reacts differently with each
individual character.  The high degree of double character combinations does
seem to work against this hypothesis, however.

>would be placed in the grid as homophones, and exponentially increase the
>combinations. A little math indicated to be that the lack of repetiton of
words
>could be pure chance with this many combinations.

Can you give me a clearer picture of this?  Exactly how many combinations do
you expect with the addition of homophones?

>RESULTS AND DEDUCTONS. Before I give examples, let me state some
observations.
>Spaces between words are null.
>A letter value can be represent by a pair of VMS characters, or a single
>character that is a contractions of the single double combination. I have
been
>calling this single character the absolute value. To illustrate this, the
VMS
>"A" is a "O" on the table.

Give me some time to go through your examples and do some calculations.  I
find the approach very interesting from a statistical point of view.

>One other characteristic indicates that I am on the right path. I noticed
very
>quickly when trying to decide if a letter was represented by an absolute
value
>or a pair, I noticed that the absolute value equals the value of the pair.
This
>might indicate some meaning, or it might indicate that the geometry of my
table
>of incorrect.

Can you give me more information on this particular item?  This seems to be
the "feedback loop" Brumbaugh got stuck in as well.  If this holds true in
most of the instances you observe, it could well be a very important
observation.

We seem to have much in common in our assumptions and approach to this
particular problem.  Please do not take any references to Brumbaugh's work
as offensive, as I have great esteem for the man and his attempts at
understanding the problem.  I am probably one of the few who has taken the
time to understand his approach and its implementation.  With this comment I
will tell you what I do know of his work.

Brumbaugh assumed (correctly) that many of the labels would follow the
convention of Latin, no matter what language the script was written in.  (By
"correctly" I mean that there is nothing to demonstrate that the Voynich
author strayed from convention in his writings, and the overwhelming
evidence is that the author was extremely familiar with the Latin language.)
Brumbaugh was scientific in his application of possible Latin names for
identified plants, and this is what he based his "number boxes" on.  His
difficulties came when he had more than one recognizable plant on a page and
the box did not work for both plants.  He then had to create variant boxes
to "fit the mold".  This approach was also exemplary in the process of
scientific deduction.  All Brumbaugh's observations were in keeping with
protocol for scientific and mathematical investigation.  Unfortunately he
stretched this method to include yet another set of boxes for star names,
etc., in different sections.  Brumbaugh tested bees and butterflies, and
wound up defining a "beerfly".  He assumed all sections to be the same, and
therefore ignored isolation and control protocols in his research.

Brumbaugh's system could not keep up with different inputs from different
sections, and he was either unaware or chose to ignore information about
different "hands" in the work.  Brumbaugh provided himself with too much
conflicting information, and was therefore not able to see what he had
accomplished.  Had he taken his "number boxes" from only one section and
studied them, he would have seen the numerical relationship each character
shared from one box to the other, and with this information he would have
been able to calculate a single "box" that incorporated these number
variants.  When he published the whole work at once his rationalizations
sounded like gibberish to most, and because of that he gets little respect
among Voynich enthusiasts.  My personal opinion is that he accomplished
quite a lot, and even if his system did not work entirely as planned, it did
demonstrate certain numeric properties that should have been investigated
more closely by others.  What is easy for me to see in hindsight was not so
easy for him to create or visualize in real time, and each of us as
legitimate researchers should have examined and understood his work
individually before simply echoing the criticisms of others.

It is a real act of will that you came out with your partial decipherment,
and I for one am very happy you did.  It gives us a chance to examine
something without any preconceived notions about what to expect.  What is
unfortunate to us all, and what keeps many of us from revealing our partial
works, is the stygmata that has come to be associated with the Voynich.  A
single man knights the Voynich an artificial language and guides the course
of history for the next 50 years without ever offering a lick of evidence to
support his contention.  Each and every attempt at decipherment meets with
brutal attack by peers, and most of those attacks do not even include any
details of why the attacker deems the system irrelevant.  All paths, even
dead ends, are relevant in a scientific investigation.  Yes, with gritted
teeth I admit it, even the pursuit of Hindu, Malay, Tibetan and Polynesian
languages.  But only when their investigation does not lead outside the
arena of known fact.  (I mentioned the alien abductee hypothesis, but did I
mention the one about Nympho Peruvian Pygmies?)  Now I have to see a
dentist - I just chipped a gritted tooth.

Sorry to be so verbosely brief.  I do look forward to your response and
further study of your hypothesis.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov  6 11:11:10 1997
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Dennis wrote:

 > Here's an idea on the size of the VMs character set.

 > Now let us define n(estimate) as

 > n(estimate) = 2^^(h1)

 Which leads to typical values of 13.0-14.5 for all cases
 checked by Dennis.

 Perhaps a bit more realistic is the following, which
 I did in the past: assume that the character size equals
 n. Then for each character 'i' you assume a probability
 p(i), such that p(i) = C/i (first Zipf law).
 You calculate C such that sum(p(i)) = 1,
 namely C = 1/ sum(1/p(i)). Now you know all p(i) and
 you can compute h1 = sum[ -p(i) log p(i) ].
 Repeat this for all interesting values of n (say 20-30)
 and you get a table of estimated h1 values.
 Then you can see which 'n' gives the observed h1 for
 each test case (or interpolate).

 When I did this it turned out that the alphabet size
 was about 24 for all cases.  This includes the space
 character. I think it is a very telling value!!!
 (The above-mentioned table is contained in a message
 I sent a bit more than a year ago, I think).

 Note that the (probably final but not yet published)
 EVA alphabet size equals 25 (exluding space), where the
 rarest character occurs 10 times in the entire Ms.
 The rarer stuff are called 'special characters' and there
 are significantly more of them.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov  6 10:47:08 1997
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rmalek wrote:
> 
> Your point about parallel word fragments in vertical rows is a very valid
> one however, and something I have paid particular attention to.  They appear
> to be related to line length as well, and if you use a modified-standard
> character set to represent the Voynich characters (a set of 23 or 24
> character forms versus 36), the line lengths in several sections of the
> pages develop numerical significance.  This is far more than chance, and
> therefore indicative of the system in use.  (Actually it is probably more
> indicative of a pattern the author fell into to keep track of his place in
> the cipher.)

	Here's an idea on the size of the VMs character set.  

	h0 = zero-order entropy
	n  = size of character set.

	h0 = log2 (n)

or

	n = 2^(h0)

	Stolfi pointed out that if some characters are hardly ever used, they
will have little effect on h1, the first-order entropy, although they
might have a large effect on n and h0.  

	Now let us define n(estimate) as

	n(estimate) = 2^(h1)

I know that more things than the size of the character set go into h1,
but perhaps n(estimate) might be proportional to the size of the "real"
VMs character set.

                    # ch                           
File           #     in                           
Name          ch    File     h0      h1      h2     2^(h1)
-----------   ---   -----   -----   -----   -----   ----- 
voyas.cur      33    9804   5.044   3.792   2.313   13.9
voyb.cur       34   13858   5.087   3.796   2.267   13.0
voyas.fsg      24   10074   4.585   3.801   2.286   13.0
voyb.fsg       24   14203   4.585   3.804   2.244   14.0
voyas.eva      21   12218   4.392   3.802   1.990   13.9
voyb.eva       21   16061   4.392   3.859   2.081   14.5
voyas.guy      19   13539   4.248   3.710   1.951   13.1
voyb.guy       19   17975   4.248   3.749   1.999   13.4

	So, using the different transcription alphabets on samples of Herbal-A
and Herbal-B, n(estimate) varies from 13.0 to 14.5.  So there's not that
much difference in n(estimate) for all the different combinations.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov  6 20:14:07 1997
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Hey, it seems Team Voynich is coming to life again.  Thanks
to all who have sent messages recently.

On the size of the VMs alphabet: I too adhere to the view that
there are, perhaps, 20 to 24 genuine symbols in the alphabet.
I think the numerous "weirdos" are any of (a) miscopyings,
(b) flourishes, or (c) special one-off symbols like the smileys
in some ascii texts or the astrological symbols in some alchemy
texts.  That;s one reason, by the way, why I've never worried
too much about their exact shape or meaning.

Why do I believe that?  Because my analysis of the VMs groups
came to the conclusion that there was a fair amount of uncorrected
error in the groups and spaces of the MS - remarkably like the
errors I had seen some 30 years earlier in my analysis of machine
readable texts constructed by poor keypunchers before we knew
about dual entry, data validation &c (and hey, come to think, I
got paid for that work).  Incidentally, this may also be support
for the "ignorant scribes" theory.

Secondly, I confess to feeling Brumbaugh's work is largely useless
as a positive guide to VMs decipherment.  In my view, his approach
was not scientific.  He tried to derive a decode system, and when it
began not to work, his response was to steadily add both more
complexity and more flexibility of interpretation.  To me, that's one
of the key methodologies that distinguishes "crank" science from
real science - when faced with disconfirming evidence, fudge the
hypothesis, until eventually you have an hypothesis so broad it
can explain everything.  And at the end of all his labours, he was
unable to come up with even one rock-solid, convincing label
decode.  How many things in the world of the 1500s or 1600s
could be called "arabiclike"?  It's a bit like rendering the label
in a japanese shopping catalogue as "westernlike", and then
claiming you've decoded japanese.

Finally, I have this suspicion of long standing that the anomalous
h2 entropy is a very big clue, but alas don't have the skills to
understand what it's pointing to.

Yours
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov  7 03:50:08 1997
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R.Firth wrote:


> Finally, I have this suspicion of long standing that the
> anomalous h2 entropy is a very big clue, but alas don't have
> the skills to understand what it's pointing to.

It has been pointed out in the recent past that the
value of h2 by itself is a very incomplete 'characteristic'
of the language in question, unlike, say, the values of mean
and standard deviation for a normal distribution, which
essentially tell you all you need.
Now if one were to compute (sum(x^^3)/N)^^(1/3) for a normal
distribution, one would not obtain a value that
'completely describes' it. However, if one finds a value
which does not fit together with mean and sigma, one
knows that 'something is wrong' and one should not
discard this information, even if it's incomplete.

So, whereas I agree that entropy is not a very good
measure of the properties of a particular text,
I wholeheartedly agree with Robert's view above.

Cheers, Rene


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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 01:02:40 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Fw: VMs Character Set
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: VMs Character Set


>> Which leads to typical values of 13.0-14.5 for all cases
>> checked by Dennis. ....
>
>
>> When I did this it turned out that the alphabet size
>> was about 24 for all cases.  This includes the space
>> character. I think it is a very telling value!!!
>> (The above-mentioned table is contained in a message
>> I sent a bit more than a year ago, I think).
>>
>> Note that the (probably final but not yet published)
>> EVA alphabet size equals 25 (exluding space), where the
>> rarest character occurs 10 times in the entire Ms.
>> The rarer stuff are called 'special characters' and there
>> are significantly more of them.
>
>My basic problem with the particular entropy calculations used in this
group
>is that they are designed for the study of languages, while cipher is
>specifically designed to disrupt the natural character entropy of
languages.
>This one obviously goes further in disrupting the word entropy as well.  I
>would love to subscribe to Rene's view of the character set, and in fact I
>do very much, it is just that I got there using a much lower set of
>mathematics.
>
>Let me point out that the problem of character recognition is unique to the
>Voynich, and to all known ciphers.  Never in the history of cipher or
>manuscript has the artistic nature of the character set posed such a
problem
>to those who would try to read it.  It is this one aspect of the Voynich
>that has in my opinion stood in the way of truly meaningful Voynich
>statistics.
>
>Long ago I transcribed the Voynich from one end to the other and added
>characters every time I ran into a "wierdo".  Once completed, I believe I
>actually had 39 characters.  I took all nonsignificant values aside and
>compared each one to the primary character set, forming groups of
characters
>with similar structure.  Characters that appeared on only one or two pages
>were set aside as totally non-significant to the whole.  My revised set
came
>to 24 characters with 2 characters reading on the very low end of the
scale.
>
>Some of the lower character data was later attributed to the different
>"hands" in sections, which I pretty much duplicated by running statistics
on
>each page and graphing the variances.  What I did not expect was that a
>small character set maintained its high value throughout the sections, and
>appeared to be a stable entity, apart from the rest of characters.  This
>small group of characters turned out to represent the basic character forms
>from which all characters and their variations are drawn.  This idea may
>well be behind Frogguy's vivisection of the character set, as it becomes
>quite apparent on a subconscious level even before it makes sense.
>
>It makes little difference for linguistists, but without a clearly defined
>number of characters for each section, any cipher investigation would be
>fruitless.  I presently stand at 23 characters with only one possible
>exception of a combination character that sometimes brings the total to 24.
>This number is not only a well calculated value by many more than myself,
it
>is also the expected value range for polyalphabetic and other types of
>cipher from this time period.
>
>
>Regards,   Rayman
>

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov  7 04:05:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 02:02:16 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: More comments
To: robertjf <robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>Secondly, I confess to feeling Brumbaugh's work is largely useless
>as a positive guide to VMs decipherment.  In my view, his approach
>was not scientific.  He tried to derive a decode system, and when it
>began not to work, his response was to steadily add both more
>complexity and more flexibility of interpretation.  To me, that's one of
>the key methodologies that distinguishes "crank" science from
>real science ...

Fortunately for me I do not hold out such overwhelming demands on persons
who by their own admission are "amateur detectives".  I made no statement
that his work was a positive guide to VMs decipherment, only that much could
be learned from detailed examination of his approach.  Brumbaugh overwhelmed
himself with information and did indeed finally violate scientific
principles, but as an "amateur" there was nothing holding him to these
principles in this particular field of endeavour.  The early stages of his
work were in keeping with scientific beliefs, even when his assumptions were
incorrect.  I recall a series of communications entitled "Firth's Notes",
which contain several unsubstantiated assumptions, yet we all look at these
with an eye for the core of thought behind them.  It is my belief that
unwarranted attacks on interested Voynich researchers should come to an end,
and "spirited" harmony should prevail.

With that note I believe a word should be said about "crank" science.  I
reserve my harshest criticism for those who set themselves up to the public
as "experts", in this instance Friedman, Kahn and D'Imperio.  All three
either made or repeated defamatory comments about Strong without ever
offering evidence.  Kahn and D'Imperio simply restated Friedman's position,
but a true researcher would have carefully examined that position in the
absence of supporting evidence.

The number of times I either read or view one researcher's bolderdash of
another researcher without substantiation is incredible, just as the number
of times I read that a researcher's goal was to prove a certain theory.
History shows us that the most published and repeated theory wins, and to
hell with the facts for now, or at least until that person's career is over.
Publication and notoriety are prerequisites for funding in most major
universities.  Science is always on the verge of a "breakthrough" of one
sort or another, which has come to mean that there are available funds which
this particular announcement is timed to appropriate.

We are indeed fortunate that none of us in this group are here as "experts"
to defend our particular reputations.  If we were, there would be no
significant exchange of scientific discovery and thought.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov  7 09:38:07 1997
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robertjf wrote:
> 
> To me, that's one
> of the key methodologies that distinguishes "crank" science from
> real science - when faced with disconfirming evidence, fudge the
> hypothesis, until eventually you have an hypothesis so broad it
> can explain everything.  

	Yes, that's why I keeping wanting to formulate a hypothesis that's
specific enough to test.  However, we also have to advance with smaller
hypotheses, that ignore some of the evidence and explain part of all the
evidence.  That's going to be part of the trial-and-error process for
us.  I agree with Rayman to that extent -- we need to be tolerant of all
ideas!  

> Finally, I have this suspicion of long standing that the anomalous
> h2 entropy is a very big clue, but alas don't have the skills to
> understand what it's pointing to.

	Rene and Stolfi have said, and I tend to agree, that the anomalous h2
is due to the paradigms -- especially yours (Robert's) -- that so much
of the text follows.  

	So what do the paradigms mean?  My pet hypothesis for the day -- they
encipher syllables.  The first element of the paradigm is a consonant,
the second a vowel.  

	There might be a marker (call it ' ) that is used as the first element
for syllables that start with a vowel.  There might also be a marker
(call it - ) for consonants at the end of a syllable.  
"Incunabulum" might be enciphered as 'i n- cu na bu lu m-    .   

	' and - might register as vowels to our tests. Given the nature of the
paradigm (~ 21  x 23), there would probably be multiple substitutes for
vowels, 
probably not for consonants.  


Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov  7 16:02:11 1997
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 22:08:21 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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robertjf wrote:

> On the size of the VMs alphabet: I too adhere to the view that
> there are, perhaps, 20 to 24 genuine symbols in the alphabet.
> I think the numerous "weirdos" are any of (a) miscopyings,
> (b) flourishes, or (c) special one-off symbols like the smileys
> in some ascii texts or the astrological symbols in some alchemy
> texts.  That;s one reason, by the way, why I've never worried
> too much about their exact shape or meaning.

Yeah, there does seem to be a lot of variation. This might alsohelp with
the H2 value. An effect of the flourishes and errors is to increase the
apparent size of the character set. Here are sme monkey values from a
piece of modern English:

 h0    5.12928
 h1    4.08905
 h2    3.25807
 h3    2.42493

This set is for the same text, but with the 'translate to upper case'
option turned off:

 h0    4.90689
 h1    4.16846
 h2    2.49723
 h3    1.07184

The second set (with the enlarged character set) seems to have the much
lower
entropy values. It seems from this that if we drop the size of the
character set, then the entropy should increase. Although we increase the
frequency of certai ordered pairs, this is compensated for by the drop in
the total number of possible combinations, resulting in data that is more
randomly distributed than the original
(ie we pull the h2 value up towards the values of a natural language).

> Why do I believe that?  Because my analysis of the VMs groups
> came to the conclusion that there was a fair amount of uncorrected
> error in the groups and spaces of the MS - remarkably like the
> errors I had seen some 30 years earlier in my analysis of machine
> readable texts constructed by poor keypunchers before we knew
> about dual entry, data validation &c (and hey, come to think, I
> got paid for that work).  Incidentally, this may also be support
> for the "ignorant scribes" theory.

Yep, or the degraded, 3rd or 4th hand copy theory. A lot of the
variations do look like they could be typos.

> Secondly, I confess to feeling Brumbaugh's work is largely useless
> as a positive guide to VMs decipherment.  In my view, his approach
> was not scientific.  He tried to derive a decode system, and when it
> began not to work, his response was to steadily add both more
> complexity and more flexibility of interpretation.  To me, that's one
> of the key methodologies that distinguishes "crank" science from
> real science - when faced with disconfirming evidence, fudge the
> hypothesis, until eventually you have an hypothesis so broad it
> can explain everything.  And at the end of all his labours, he was
> unable to come up with even one rock-solid, convincing label
> decode.  How many things in the world of the 1500s or 1600s
> could be called "arabiclike"?  It's a bit like rendering the label
> in a japanese shopping catalogue as "westernlike", and then
> claiming you've decoded japanese.

Yes. It should be possible to take almost any plaintext and derive an
algorythm for deciphering the VM into it. What you will never be able to
prove is that the translation you have is the right one,

> Finally, I have this suspicion of long standing that the anomalous
> h2 entropy is a very big clue, but alas don't have the skills to
> understand what it's pointing to.

To much order:   The character set is to big,
   The actual symbols are mainly composed of what we currently have as
two           characters - ie the characters would be O, 4O, F, 89, CC,
etc.
   We're looking at a hash table with systematic values.
   When one of the previous scribes copied the book he had trouble
reading it (or memory problems) and when he wasn't certain how to read a
word wrote down all the variations he thought might apply (ie faced with
copying @#F89, we got 4OF89 followed by OF89).

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov  7 16:14:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 22:20:46 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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rmalek wrote:

> >Some of the lower character data was later attributed to the different
> >"hands" in sections, which I pretty much duplicated by running statistics
> on
> >each page and graphing the variances.  What I did not expect was that a
> >small character set maintained its high value throughout the sections, and
> >appeared to be a stable entity, apart from the rest of characters.  This
> >small group of characters turned out to represent the basic character forms
> >from which all characters and their variations are drawn.  This idea may
> >well be behind Frogguy's vivisection of the character set, as it becomes
> >quite apparent on a subconscious level even before it makes sense.

Is this available anywhere? Did you try translating the document down into it
and reworking the statistics?

> >It makes little difference for linguistists, but without a clearly defined
> >number of characters for each section, any cipher investigation would be
> >fruitless.  I presently stand at 23 characters with only one possible
> >exception of a combination character that sometimes brings the total to 24.
> >This number is not only a well calculated value by many more than myself,
> it
> >is also the expected value range for polyalphabetic and other types of
> >cipher from this time period.

Hmmm. Now what was the source language comprised of? Lets take modern English as
a base. Upper case only, plus the characters 0 thru 9. That's 36 characters.
Either we lost some information during the encryption, or we have mappings from
1 plain text character to a sequence of 2 voynich characters. This 1 to 2
mapping could help explain the low entropy, as it means we're reading it wrong.
It would also allow 8, 9 and 89 to be different values, as well as 4O and O.
Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov  7 16:29:07 1997
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 22:35:00 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Dennis wrote:

> robertjf wrote:
> >
> > To me, that's one
> > of the key methodologies that distinguishes "crank" science from
> > real science - when faced with disconfirming evidence, fudge the
> > hypothesis, until eventually you have an hypothesis so broad it
> > can explain everything.
>
>         Yes, that's why I keeping wanting to formulate a hypothesis that's
> specific enough to test.  However, we also have to advance with smaller
> hypotheses, that ignore some of the evidence and explain part of all the
> evidence.  That's going to be part of the trial-and-error process for
> us.  I agree with Rayman to that extent -- we need to be tolerant of all
> ideas!

Ummm. We've only got one sample, and unless we can get some supporting evidence
from somewhere else, crypto theory says we can decode it as anything we like and
they're all equally valid. Any decryption or translation is going to require a
certain ammount of faith (if only in the correction of the transcription errors
that we know are in the document).

> > Finally, I have this suspicion of long standing that the anomalous
> > h2 entropy is a very big clue, but alas don't have the skills to
> > understand what it's pointing to.
>
>         Rene and Stolfi have said, and I tend to agree, that the anomalous h2
> is due to the paradigms -- especially yours (Robert's) -- that so much
> of the text follows.
>
>         So what do the paradigms mean?  My pet hypothesis for the day -- they
> encipher syllables.  The first element of the paradigm is a consonant,
> the second a vowel.
>
>         There might be a marker (call it ' ) that is used as the first element
> for syllables that start with a vowel.  There might also be a marker
> (call it - ) for consonants at the end of a syllable.
> "Incunabulum" might be enciphered as 'i n- cu na bu lu m-    .
>
>         ' and - might register as vowels to our tests. Given the nature of the
> paradigm (~ 21  x 23), there would probably be multiple substitutes for
> vowels, probably not for consonants.

Hmmm. Try it the other way around - vowel, constanent:

 Incunabulum - in 'k un ab ul um
 creosote - 'kr e- oh 's ot
 kingdom - 'k ing 'd om
 eternal - et er 'n al
 Remedial - 'r em ed i- al

- Note the pattern of the last pair - only a few possible pairing, with the first
character being more limited than the second. AN AM AR AE...

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  8 06:53:08 1997
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Mik Clarke wrote:

> Here are sme monkey values from a piece of modern English:

 > h0    5.12928
 > h1    4.08905
 > h2    3.25807
 > h3    2.42493

> This set is for the same text, but with the 'translate to upper
> case' option turned off:

 > h0    4.90689
 > h1    4.16846
 > h2    2.49723
 > h3    1.07184

 Careful now!
 These are presumably estimated values using the usual
 formula (- sum p ln p) with conditional probabilities(?)

 First problem: the character set for 'upper case only' is
 35 and for 'mixed case' 30. This should be the other way
 around. Are the numbers for the 'mixed case' text based
 on the remaining upper case characters only?

 Second: please let us know the size of the source text.

 Third: if the character set is larger, you need a larger
 text to estimate the h3, so using the same source text
 gives biased results. In this case, though, you probably
 wanted to show the bias in the result so this may be
 valid in the end :-).

 It would be interesting to check if the h1 values would
 lead to similar estimates for the character set using the
 Zipf law assumption....

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  8 10:23:08 1997
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    > [Rene:] Perhaps a bit more realistic is the following, which I
    > did in the past: assume that the character size equals n. Then
    > for each character 'i' you assume a probability p(i), such that
    > p(i) = C/i (first Zipf law).  You calculate C such that
    > sum(p(i)) = 1, namely C = 1/ sum(1/p(i)).
    
A good quick approximation is C = 1/(0.5772 + log(n + 0.5245)).
    
    > Now you know all p(i) and you can compute h1 = sum[ -p(i) log
    > p(i) ].  Repeat this for all interesting values of n (say 20-30)
    > and you get a table of estimated h1 values.
    
Here is the table for n in 1..100:

  First-order entropy for the n-letter Zipf distribution
  ------------------------------------------------------
    n    h1    n    h1    n    h1    n    h1    n    h1
  --- -----  --- -----  --- -----  --- -----  --- -----
    1 0.000   21 3.700   41 4.408   61 4.815   81 5.101
    2 0.918   22 3.750   42 4.433   62 4.832   82 5.113
    3 1.435   23 3.798   43 4.457   63 4.848   83 5.125
    4 1.792   24 3.844   44 4.481   64 4.864   84 5.137
    5 2.064   25 3.887   45 4.504   65 4.880   85 5.149
    6 2.282   26 3.929   46 4.527   66 4.895   86 5.160
    7 2.464   27 3.969   47 4.549   67 4.910   87 5.172
    8 2.620   28 4.008   48 4.571   68 4.925   88 5.183
    9 2.756   29 4.045   49 4.592   69 4.940   89 5.195
   10 2.876   30 4.081   50 4.612   70 4.954   90 5.206
   11 2.985   31 4.116   51 4.633   71 4.969   91 5.217
   12 3.083   32 4.149   52 4.653   72 4.983   92 5.228
   13 3.173   33 4.181   53 4.672   73 4.996   93 5.238
   14 3.255   34 4.213   54 4.691   74 5.010   94 5.249
   15 3.332   35 4.243   55 4.710   75 5.024   95 5.259
   16 3.403   36 4.273   56 4.728   76 5.037   96 5.270
   17 3.470   37 4.301   57 4.746   77 5.050   97 5.280
   18 3.532   38 4.329   58 4.764   78 5.063   98 5.290
   19 3.591   39 4.356   59 4.781   79 5.076   99 5.300
   20 3.647   40 4.382   60 4.798   80 5.088  100 5.310

    > Then you can see which 'n' gives the
    > observed h1 for each test case (or interpolate).
    > 
    > When I did this it turned out that the alphabet size was about
    > 24 for all cases.  This includes the space character. I think it
    > is a very telling value!!!  (The above-mentioned table is
    > contained in a message I sent a bit more than a year ago, I
    > think).

I don't think this method can be trusted.  Note that to compute
h1 we must first break the signal into discrete "letters", and count
the occurrences of each letter. 

So there is an obvious chicken-and-egg problem here.  

We cannot use the Currier or EVA h1 to estimate the size of the "true"
alphabet (whatever that means). To see why, consider this example.
Imagine a manuscript in some language with a 50-letter alphabet A,
with a perfect 50-letter Zipf distribution.  
That text will have h1 = 4.6.

Now imagine that an "ignorant paleographer" makes the wrong
assumptions about what pen strokes make up a letter, and transcribes
the text into a 16-letter alphabet B.  The resulting text will
certainly have a *different* entropy h1, which can be anything between
0 and log2(16) = 4.0.

Note that the details of the mapping from A to B don't matter.  The
mapping may even throw away all the information and/or add tons of
random noise.  In any case, the new value of h1 will depend
exclusively on the B-letter distribution, and not on the size
of the A alphabet.

In fact, if the A->B mapping has not been specifically designed for
maximum entropy, the B letter distribution will tend to be fairly
non-uniform, roughly (very roughly) like a 16-letter Zipf.  Therefore,
the h1 entropy of the B text will probably be nearer to 3.4 than to
4.0.  If we now try to estimate the "true" alphabet size from this
value, we would get---surprise--soughly 16 letters.

Frankly, I don't think there is any hope of determining the "true" VMs
alphabet size from its entropy, or any other letter statistics---for
the simple reason that there is no such thing!  Does the "true"
English alphabet have 26 letters (lowercase), or 52 (lower+upper)?  Or
rather 128 (with punctuation, digits, etc.)?  Is `THE' really three
"true" letters, or just one?  Is the "true" Japanese alphabet phonetic,
syllabic, or logographic?

I think it is both hopeless and pointless to try to identify the
"true" Voynich alphabet by some presumed statistical property that
would distinguish it from other multi-letter/partial-letter encodings

What we actually need is the *standard* alphabet of the language, if
it has one, so that we can identify the language from its words.
Unfortunately, standard language spelling systems, even those that
claim to be "phonetic", are invariably based on "wrong" alphabets,
which do not allow a one-to-one mapping between letters and linguistic
units.

Thus, the standard spelling system for Latin (or English, or whatever)
is already a "wrong" encoding--- a casually chosen mapping from a
large sound set A into a restricted alphabet B. Therefore, there will
be many other "wrong encodings", with different alphabet sizes,
differing by substitutions like `x' --> `cs', `' --> `ae', or `ll'
--> `hl', whose statistics will look just as "wrong" as those of the
standard spelling system.  In fact, if there was some way to single
out a "statistically correct" alphabet, that alphabet would certainly
*not* be the language's standard spelling system.

Since I am still in the "plain text" camp, I am not terribly worried
about getting the "right" encoding.  As Rayman observed, a good
linguistic (as opposed to cryptological) attack should work equally
well under any reasonable encoding system.  (For instance, Robert
Firth's paradigms are about as evident in FSG as in EVA or Frogguy.)

    > the (probably final but not yet published) EVA alphabet
    
Not yet? But there is already an FSG<->EVA table in Gabriel's site!

BTW, the EVA encoding is really much nicer that all the others.  I
hope we can all switch to EVA, and forget about those unpronounceable
uppercase codes that still reek of punched cards...

In fact, I could hardly wait, and so I spent a couple of days
converting the old interlinear (interln16.evt) and other basic
datafiles to EVA.  From now on, plan to use only EVA (or subsets
thereof) in my Voynichacking.

For starters, here are the my EVA letter counts for the bio section
(language B, hand 2), according to the Friedman and Currier
transcriptions, as obtained from interln16.evt.  The "." 
denotes both word spaces and line breaks.

The "Zipf1" column gives the counts predicted by a perfect Zipf
distribution; "Zipf2" is the analogous, excluding the "." character.

  letter Fried Zipf1 Zipf2   letter Curri Zipf1 Zipf2
  ------ ----- ----- -----   ------ ----- ----- -----
  01   .  5910 10262   ---   01   .  6141 10520   ---
  02   e  3974  5131  8741   02   e  3821  5260  8921
  03   o  3635  3421  4370   03   o  3619  3507  4461
  04   y  3481  2565  2914   04   y  3468  2630  2974
  05   h  2605  2052  2185   05   h  2625  2104  2230
  06   d  2534  1710  1748   06   d  2534  1753  1784
  07   l  2172  1466  1457   07   l  2157  1503  1487
  08   k  2026  1283  1249   08   k  2002  1315  1274
  09   a  1792  1140  1093   09   a  1865  1169  1115
  10   c  1626  1026   971   10   c  1633  1052   991
  11   q  1565   933   874   11   i  1634   956   892
  12   i  1361   855   795   12   q  1547   877   811
  13   s  1321   789   728   13   s  1352   809   743
  14   t   928   733   672   14   t   928   751   686
  15   n   861   684   624   15   n   860   701   637
  16   r   837   641   583   16   r   845   657   595
  17   p   192   604   546   17   p   192   619   558
  18   m    56   570   514   18   m    72   584   525
  19   f    33   540   486   19   f    27   554   496
  20   g    11   513   460   --   -    --   ---   ---
  ------ ----- ----- -----   ------ ----- ----- -----
   TOTAL 36920 36918 31010    TOTAL 37322 37321 31180
      h1 3.826 3.647 3.591       h1 3.827 3.591 3.532
      
NOTE: Be sure to check these counts, before investing much
time on them. I may have made a blunder...

The actual distributions are obviously NOT Zipf-like.  
They are more uniform at the high-frequency end (which
explains their higher-than-expected h1), and too low
at the low-frequency end.  Plot and ponder...

Note that Currier has more `i's than `q's, and not
a single `g'. 

For comparison, here are the same tables for English
(a modern British novel).

  letter Engli Zipf1 Zipf2
  ------ ----- ----- -----
  01   .  6929  9458   ---
  02   e  3710  4729  7751
  03   t  2547  3153  3876
  04   a  2413  2364  2584
  05   o  2249  1892  1938
  06   i  2061  1576  1550
  07   n  2001  1351  1292
  08   s  1933  1182  1107
  09   h  1813  1051   969
  10   r  1806   946   861
  11   d  1405   860   775
  12   l  1279   788   705
  13   u   878   728   646
  14   m   865   676   596
  15   w   746   631   554
  16   y   738   591   517
  17   c   694   556   484
  18   f   652   525   456
  19   g   577   498   431
  20   p   482   473   408
  21   b   359   450   388
  22   v   319   430   369
  23   k   213   411   352
  24   j    61   394   337
  25   x    45   378   323
  26   q    23   364   310
  27   z     7   350   298
  ------ ----- ----- -----
   TOTAL 36805 36805 29877
      h1 4.092 3.969 3.929

So English spelling is not very Zipfian, either!...

Best regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  8 11:14:07 1997
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:05:38 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Status: OR


I forgot to say: we *do* have some hope of recovering the 
"offcial" Voynich alphabet, by means other than looking for
the "right" distribution.

One approach that may work is to look at forced word breaks, 
eg in cramped labels, or across plant stems. Presumably 
those breaks can split syllabes but not letters.

A more obvious hint is given by the "item labels" in the
"itemized lists" (what the cryptographers call "key-like sequences"),
such as f49v, f66r, and f76r.

Those lists are strong indication that the following EVA codes
are whole Voynich letters or letter groups (as opposed to 
parts of letters): 

  f49v  f o s y k r s p o y s p m r y m d y r k y 
  
  f66r  y o s sh y d o f o x air d sh y f f y o d s t f e x 
        t o r l r t o x p d
        
  f76r  s d q s ir o l k r s iin
  
There are some notable absences (like `a' and `i').
Perhaps the letter groups (like `sh' and `air') are
single letters?

I must leave now. See you tomorrow...

--stolfi


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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 17:00:42 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> Mik Clarke wrote:
>
> > Here are sme monkey values from a piece of modern English:
>
>  > h0    5.12928
>  > h1    4.08905
>  > h2    3.25807
>  > h3    2.42493
>
> > This set is for the same text, but with the 'translate to upper
> > case' option turned off:
>
>  > h0    4.90689
>  > h1    4.16846
>  > h2    2.49723
>  > h3    1.07184
>
>  Careful now!
>  These are presumably estimated values using the usual
>  formula (- sum p ln p) with conditional probabilities(?)

I don't know how Monkey works it out. Presumably it just counts, divides
and adds...

>  First problem: the character set for 'upper case only' is
>  35 and for 'mixed case' 30. This should be the other way
>  around. Are the numbers for the 'mixed case' text based
>  on the remaining upper case characters only?

UC only character set is 26 + 8 = 34 (no 2's and no 8's).Mixed is maybe
26 + 8 + 20 = 54 (with the upper case characters being scarce).

>  Second: please let us know the size of the source text.

23k.  A slightly massaged version of my story Suger King, which can
befound from: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260/tales.html

>  Third: if the character set is larger, you need a larger
>  text to estimate the h3, so using the same source text
>  gives biased results. In this case, though, you probably
>  wanted to show the bias in the result so this may be
>  valid in the end :-).

Could be. I was just looking for something to try and mess around with
to turn into something like the voynich through the introduction of
transcription errors. Didn't work, the entropy went up as more errors
were introduced, which wasn't what I wanted.

>  It would be interesting to check if the h1 values would
>  lead to similar estimates for the character set using the
>  Zipf law assumption....


Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  8 23:29:09 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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    > [Robert Firth:] 2. In case you find the idea of the VMs as a
    > mirror reversed arabic manuscript very strange, please note that
    > the most common convention for japanese manga is to publish the
    > english version mirror reversed, so the balloons spoken by the
    > characters are read in the correct order.

Indeed. Many years ago, when I began studying Japanese, I would
sometimes pick up a Japanese manga book and try to guess the meaning
of the text from the pictures.  Usually, every few pages the story
plot would stop making sense---because I had again involutarily
switched from the standard Japanese book reading order ("back" to
"front", right to left) to the Western one.

Because of that experience, I think that the possibility of
the VMs being a mirrored copy of an Arabic or Hebrew original
is not entirely absurd.

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  9 01:20:07 1997
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 23:16:11 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: VMs Character Set
To: mikclrk@ibm.net
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: VMs Character Set


>
>
>rmalek wrote:
>
>> >Some of the lower character data was later attributed to the different
>> >"hands" in sections, which I pretty much duplicated by running
statistics
>> on
>> >each page and graphing the variances.  What I did not expect was that a
>> >small character set maintained its high value throughout the sections,
and
>> >appeared to be a stable entity, apart from the rest of characters.  This
>> >small group of characters turned out to represent the basic character
forms
>> >from which all characters and their variations are drawn.  This idea may
>> >well be behind Frogguy's vivisection of the character set, as it becomes
>> >quite apparent on a subconscious level even before it makes sense.
>
>Is this available anywhere? Did you try translating the document down into
it
>and reworking the statistics?


I think the group might find my logic interesting when it comes to the
character set question, so I will do my best to recreate it and post the
info.  Now I have two things to work on - the Enochian equation and the
character set statistics - I guess I'm going to be busy.

Some of the work I described above was based on the interest in locating
"wierdo" characters within their proper character.  Some examples are
Currier "2 and R" class characters, all Currier "S" class characters, and
especially Currier "F and P" class characters.  You notice I place these
characters into classes based on their basic forms.

Next we count the number of each character on each page, and average classes
for each suspected "hand".  I simply graph that average and overlay the
characters by class and measure the deviation from the average.  The
question is - how far does a page count of F or P deviate from the average
in a given hand, and when they deviate individually does their sum still
remain close to the average?  How much does their sum change when we add
other characters from the class to the equation, and does this increase or
decrease the deviation from the average expected characters in that set?  We
can look at the problem in various statistical views, and the answers to the
questions we ask are very interesting to be sure.  Hardly the approach the
bigger math-heads would take, but I have always been more visually pattern
oriented.

Briefly, the "S" stood by itself, but the compounds within the "S" class
demonstrated that the various markings above the primary character meant
little mathematically.  This means to me there are two separate characters,
the "S" by itself and the "S" with a mark above it.  Combinations of "S and
F" or "S and P" fell into the "F and P" class and had no bearing on the "S"
class character set.   I therefore placed the "S and F/P" combinations in
the "F and P" class.  Currier "B and V", along with their "S" combinations,
were also eventually added to the "F and P" class because of similar
observations.  The "2 and R" class character set has few variations, mostly
middle ground characters that are hard to distinguish exactly.  Data on this
set was more questionable, but for one reason or another I stopped
distinguishing between the two in analysis, although all character forms are
still maintained in my database.

Just because one value rises everytime another drops may not absolutely
indicate that these values are mathematically connected, and I'm sure there
are those who can build better models than I can, but I had to start
somewhere.  As I said before, reduction of the Voynich character set removes
a lot of confusion.  I may have one or two compounds in the wrong category,
but a couple mistakes are expected at first.

When we break these characters down into classes and file them under
character forms instead of individual characters, our statistical data on
total character distribution changes dramatically.  I may be accused by some
of forcing the statistics to reveal cipher-looking text, but my primary
purpose at that time was only to straighten out the gibberish and understand
the relationship of the character forms.

>> >It makes little difference for linguistists, but without a clearly
defined
>> >number of characters for each section, any cipher investigation would be
>> >fruitless.  I presently stand at 23 characters with only one possible
>> >exception of a combination character that sometimes brings the total to
24.
>> >This number is not only a well calculated value by many more than
myself,
>> it
>> >is also the expected value range for polyalphabetic and other types of
>> >cipher from this time period.
>
>Hmmm. Now what was the source language comprised of? Lets take modern
English as
>a base. Upper case only, plus the characters 0 thru 9. That's 36
characters.
>Either we lost some information during the encryption, or we have mappings
from
>1 plain text character to a sequence of 2 voynich characters. This 1 to 2
>mapping could help explain the low entropy, as it means we're reading it
wrong.
>It would also allow 8, 9 and 89 to be different values, as well as 4O and
O.

Numbers on a cipher wheel are inefficient, especially in a time when roman
numerals were more used in writing than the common numbers of our day
(bookkeeper's numbers only during the 15th to 16th centuries mostly).  Latin
could be written with as little as 17 to 20 characters, but more usually 22
or 23, and Germanic and English languages could go higher, but usually not
over 24.  English and German needed no J or Y, and the U,V and W characters
could be added or omitted at will, but usually only one was necessary.  The
Z was also somewhat superfluous.  Take your pick of combinations between 17
and 24 to represent all Western European languages of the time.

Arrows expected....


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  9 03:20:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:13:54 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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"Ietus Arno..." 

Just for completeness, here is a letter frequency table 
for Latin text(*): 

  letter Latin Zipf1 Zipf2
  ------ ----- ----- -----
  01   .  5338  9889   ---
  02   i  3880  4944  8544
  03   e  3455  3296  4272
  04   t  2880  2472  2848
  05   u  2727  1978  2136
  06   s  2331  1648  1709
  07   a  2328  1413  1424
  08   r  1909  1236  1221
  09   n  1880  1099  1068
  10   o  1773   989   949
  11   m  1514   899   854
  12   c  1291   824   777
  13   p  1239   761   712
  14   l  1078   706   657
  15   d  1025   659   610
  16   q   518   618   570
  17   b   475   582   534
  18   v   363   549   503
  19   g   306   520   475
  20   f   224   494   450
  21   h   192   471   427
  22   x   129   449   407
  23   y    16   430   388
  ------ ----- ----- -----
   TOTAL 36871 36926 31535
      h1 4.008 3.797 3.750
      
Again, the actual frequencies do not seem to fit the Zipf model.

This actually makes some sense.  All other things being equal, 
a natural language (spoken or written) will tend to evolve so as
to maximize its communication efficiency. If the letters have
similar costs, this criterion means maximum entropy; which in
turns implies equal letter probabilities.  

I suppose that when a writing system is invented, or adapted to a new
language, it tends to have Zipf-like letter probabilities. But the
"efficiency pressure" then forces the spelling to evolve so as to
flatten out the probabilities of the most frequent letters. (Of
course, a really smart alphabet inventor will be aware of the
efficiency issue, and take it into account when designing the
alphabet.)

--stolfi

(*) For the record, the text I used is a piece of William of Ockam's
/Dialogus/, edited and published on the net by John Kilcullen and John
Scott of the British Academy
  http://britac3.britac.ac.uk/pubs/dialogus/ockdial.html 
Specifically, I used the first ~5400 words of
  http://britac3.britac.ac.uk/pubs/dialogus/w31d2tx.html
lightly cleaned up, stripped of all punctuation,
and mapped to lower case.























From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  9 08:26:08 1997
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Message-ID: <3465C97D.F84791E1@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 14:32:29 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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A few thoughts about the encryption possabilities.

If you ae in posession of information which, if the catholics find out
about it, would have them bun you as a protestent, why would you
encypher it as such a painly magical document? Surelu this just means
that both catholics and protestents will burn you for being a damnable
wizard if either of the find it?

I also imagine the life expectency of anyone who took such a manuscript
to a monastry to get it copied would be similerly short (and the Abbot
certainly wouldn't want a copy for his library).

The second problem is the length. It's far to long to be a simple
message, and must have taken several months to prepare, so whatever it
is, there wasn't any urgency attached to it. The nature of the
illustrations points to it being more an encyclopedia or note book, than
a scathing condemnation of the Pope. So why encrypt it at all?

One possability that does spring to mind is that its a grimoire, which
would fit with
the interest given it by Dee and the like...

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  9 09:14:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 15:21:25 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> Again, the actual frequencies do not seem to fit the Zipf model.
>
> This actually makes some sense.  All other things being equal,
> a natural language (spoken or written) will tend to evolve so as
> to maximize its communication efficiency. If the letters have
> similar costs, this criterion means maximum entropy; which in
> turns implies equal letter probabilities.
>
> I suppose that when a writing system is invented, or adapted to a new
> language, it tends to have Zipf-like letter probabilities. But the
> "efficiency pressure" then forces the spelling to evolve so as to
> flatten out the probabilities of the most frequent letters. (Of
> course, a really smart alphabet inventor will be aware of the
> efficiency issue, and take it into account when designing the
> alphabet.)

Hmmm. If natural languages are anything like compute languages, then you
will have a core of glyphs that you do most of the routines work with,
some extra ones that you use as needed and a few on the fringe that only
get used vary occasionally (either being late imports, out of character
with the language or frowned upon).

I don't think its impossible that natural languages may behave the same
way. Start with a small core of glyphs and combinein various ways to get
words. Slowly add more glyphs to expand the word space, but all of the
possible combinations are not used up. Late additions add the much rarer
glyphs. Langugae exensions, like suffixes and prefixes will have evolved
early, and will generally be combinations of the core glyphs. These get
attached to all the words that use the newer glyphs, giving them a
somewhat higher distribution than they should perhaps have.

In the Latin sample, the core would seem to be:
   . e i t u s a r n o m c p l d

For the Voynich example you poseted, it seems to be:
  . e o y h d l k a c i q s t n r

Interesting and probably totally misleading observation:

  The same letters appear in both sets, with the exception of u, m and p
  in the Latin which are replaced by y, h and q in the Voynich core. The .
and the
  e are the most frequent characters in both sets.

For the English sample, the cut over would seem to be around the p,
giving quite a large core set;
  . e t a o i n s h r d l u m w y c f g

...but given that English is a mature language and has had a lot of
diversity to fill out its word space, this may not be to exceptional. It
would also point to English having a
large vocabulary than either Latin or the Voynich language.

Oh, here are some entropy values from a program (although I'm not sure how
much of it Monkey read):

 --- Order ---
 h0    4.58496
 h1    4.21803
 h2    2.33043
 h3    0.61181
 h4    0.32400

Word entropy:

---- Order ----
 h0    4.75489
 h1    4.57186
 h2    0.31632
 h3    0.14409

I'm not sure Monkey is reading the input file properly though, as its word
counts seem
to be very low.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  9 19:02:07 1997
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Mik Clarke wrote:

> In the Latin sample, the core would seem to be:
> . e i t u s a r n o m c p l d

> For the Voynich example you poseted, it seems to be:
> . e o y h d l k a c i q s t n r

> Interesting and probably totally misleading observation:

> The same letters appear in both sets, with the exception
> of u, m and p in the Latin which are replaced by y, h and
> q in the Voynich core. The . and the e are the most frequent
> characters in both sets.

I don't know...
EVA was designed to be more-or-less pronouncible, so
a reasonable vowel-consonant distribution has been
imposed on the alphabet. On the other hand, the transcribed
character for each Voynich character has been selected such
that there is at least *some* graphical correspondence.
Thus the 'd' for what looks like '8' and 'y' for the '9',
with the added twist that 9 could mean -us and English
has a tendency to write -y for -ius (Pliny, Livy). If we
had used EVA-u for what looks like an 'o', the correspondence
would have been much better, but that was not the idea.
EVA was designed for easy transcription.

And when I said that the final version of the alphabet has
not yet been released, don't worry as what has been shown
in the past will still be correct. Only additional
characters for some frequent weirdoes have been added.

Cheers, Rene


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    > ... I believe the entire book to be the one and only copy ever
    > in existence. ... We might expect at least a copy per scribe to
    > have been produced. Religious scribes almost always made more
    > than one copy of their work, one for sale, one for the library,
    > maybe even one for their own personal revenue.
    
Wait a minute, we are talking about *hand* copying! Making N copies by
hand costs exactly N times as much (in time and material) as making
one copy. There is nothing to be saved by making two copies at the
same time.

The VMs has about 230 pages.  How many pages can a scribe copy per day?
Let's say 4 pages per hour, 10 hours per day: it is still a week of
hard work.  

Surely a scribe would not make an extra copy on his own initiative,
unless the original was hard to come by, AND he would be reasonably
certain to sell it for more than his standard week's wage, AND the
client who comissioned the copy was willing to let him keep his
precious original for another week or two---to make extra copies that
might be sold to his rivals. Hmmm...

Note that a scribe's output is a fixed quantity. I think it would make
more sense for a scribe to work as much as possible for a guaranteed
market, i.e. on comission.

    > Multiple scribes would reduce that possibility drastically, as
    > this would not have been the only scribal copy made if it were a
    > team effort.

Also, multiple scribes do not imply multiple copies. In a scribal
office with two or more fixed workers (which could be a monastery, a
lay bookmaker's shop, a team of secretaries, whatever) it would make
sense to distribute a copying job among several workers, if only for 
logistic reasons---lunch breaks, night shifts, idle workers,
special skills, etc.DCC).

Parallel copying would also be a way to get quick turnaround. 
The typical client would surely appreciate getting his copy done 
in three days rather than two weeks.  Besides, he probably had 
borrowed the original from a colleague, and would want to return
it as soon as possible.

    > Taking this into account, it would be strange if this was the
    > only copy that survived, without reference by anyone to the
    > other copies.

I don't know the survival rate for books of that age, but it seems to
be very small. If I had to guess, I would say surely below 5%, 
probably less than 1%.

A book would be reasonably safe only if it ended up in the library of
some enduring institutions (major university, royal palace, the
Vatican); elsewhere it would have to survive 500 years of fire, rain,
war, rats, insects, mildew---and overzealous cleaning ladies.

Take for example the Oresme books I posted a while ago. Only half a
dozen surviving copies are known, in very different hands; some
incomplete, all riddled with scribal errors.  The author seems
to have been relatively well known at the time. Since those copies are
scattered all over Europe, and look like N-th generation copies,
it is seems likely that many more copies---hundreds, perhaps---must
have been made, during the first couple of centuries after the original
was written.

Consider also that the original Voynich would not have been a
particularly pretty book, and was of course completely useless without
the key. Such a book is not likely to win a place on the best shelf,
or to be rescued first when there is a fire in the house. After the
owner's curiosity wears off, it might get tossed into the attic, or
used as a door prop, or recycled as tinder. (Think of all those
missing folios in the Beinecke copy, and of the missing cover.) 

(By the way, if p is the fraction of 15th century books that have
survived to this day, then a priori the probability of the VMs (or any
other book) being the original is also p. Since p is certainly less
than 1/2, it seems that we should assume the VMs is a copy, until
there is evidence to the contrary.)

(Also, if we know of only one surviving copy of some book, then 1/p is
the correct a priori estimate for the number of copies originall
made.)

--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov  8 18:41:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 10:37:00 -0800
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.. 3 weeks to be precise. 

Not that it will reduce by much the likelihood
of my e-mail box exploding, but every little
bit might help. I am going to come back to
a boxful of spam as I don't know how to avoid
*that* (spam... yuck!)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  9 13:29:09 1997
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 19:35:09 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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The two pages on the web that show plants both seem to show the plants
being attacked by something. The first seems to have round, sperical
objects with lots of small cylinders sticking out of them eating its
roots, while the second has a strange bulge at the bottom of the plants
stem and an indication of something within it.

Can any of the other illustrations be interpreted this way? If so, then
we may have a section on plant diseases, rather than on plants.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov  9 14:38:11 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
cc: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Encryption question
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On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Mik Clarke wrote:

> One possability that does spring to mind is that it's a grimoire, which
> would fit with the interest given it by Dee and the like...

Then it's a grammar, from which was cast a glamor! (all related)

warm regards, moonhawk



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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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    > Hmmm. If natural languages are anything like compute languages,
    > then you will have a core of glyphs that you do most of the
    > routines work with, some extra ones that you use as needed and a
    > few on the fringe that only get used vary occasionally (either
    > being late imports, out of character with the language or
    > frowned upon).

Yes, but in a well-designed language the less-used things should
generally have longer names. The efficiency is still maximized when
the *symbol* distribution is uniform, even though the *word*
distribution is strongly non-uniform. In that case, the optimum length
for a word is approximately -log_m(p), where m is the alphabet size
and p the word's frequency.

(IMHO, that is one of the many reasons why the designers of
Pascal-style languages have lost the war against C++: their
ideological attachment to spelled-out keywords like "begin" and
"procedure" violated this basic linguistic principle...)

    > In the Latin sample, the core would seem to be:
    >    . e i t u s a r n o m c p l d
    > 
    > For the Voynich example you poseted, it seems to be:
    >   . e o y h d l k a c i q s t n r
    > 
    > Interesting and probably totally misleading observation: The
    > same letters appear in both sets, with the exception of u, m and
    > p in the Latin which are replaced by y, h and q in the Voynich
    > core. The . and the e are the most frequent characters in both
    > sets.

When Rene and Gabriel designed the EVA encoding, one of their goals
was to make Voynichese more pronounceable and natural-sounding, for
obvious practical reasons. So the similarity is not coincidental, but
is not relevant to the decipherment...

    > ...but given that English is a mature language and has had a lot
    > of diversity to fill out its word space, this may not be to
    > exceptional.
    
This is geting off-topic, but... I would say that English uses so
many letters because it is a relatively recent fusion of two very
different languages (plus several other minor ingredients)---
and preserved both spelling systems, instead of defining 
its own.

    > It would also point to English having a large vocabulary than
    > either Latin or the Voynich language.

I don't see the relation.  

The set of English *phonemes* may be slightly larger than that of
Latin---except that no one knows how Latin was pronounced in Roman
times! And Voynichese may well turn out to be English...

I don't think there is any objective way to define, much less measure,
the size of a language's vocabulary. In fact this issue sounds like
the perfect fuel for a language flame war...

--stolfi

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    Dear all,

    Stolfi wrote:

> I don't think this method can be trusted.  Note that to compute
> h1 we must first break the signal into discrete "letters", and
> count the occurrences of each letter.

> So there is an obvious chicken-and-egg problem here.

Quite true. I just wanted to show that the character set
used for writing up the VMs was probably around 24 and that
Currier's alphabet is too big, given the imperfect but not
too bad Zipf law approximations. It then becomes more
interesting:

> We cannot use the Currier or EVA h1 to estimate the size
> of the "true" alphabet (whatever that means).[...] Imagine
> a manuscript in some language with a 50-letter alphabet
> A, with a perfect 50-letter Zipf distribution.
> That text will have h1 = 4.6.

> Now imagine that an "ignorant paleographer" [...] transcribes
> the text into a 16-letter alphabet B.  The resulting text will
> certainly have a *different* entropy h1, which can be anything
> between 0 and log2(16) = 4.0.

Correct. And depending on how he did it, we would not even
necessarily have an h1 value greater than the one expected
from a 16-character alphabet following the Zipf law. One
might not even suspect anything to be wrong, with one
big exception. I have the strong suspicion, that in the
above example, the value of h2 would be anomalously low...

(pause for emphasis).


> Does the "true" English alphabet have 26 letters (lowercase),
> or 52 (lower+upper)?  Or rather 128 (with punctuation, digits,
> etc.)?

Well, note that the Voynichese alphabet does not clearly cut off
anywhere.
The character set is definitely greater than 100, but we may
expect that this is due to both sloppy writing and the
introduction of certain occasional non-alphabetic 'symbols'.
Needless to say, some alphabetic languages do not even have
the distinction between capitals and lower case, and a lot of
ME text was single-case with only the very ornate capitals
once in a while. Then again certain characters were written
in different styles depending on their environment. A nice
example is the 'r' which depended on whether the previous
letter had a round 'belly' (o or b) or not.


> BTW, the EVA encoding is really much nicer that all the others.
> I hope we can all switch to EVA, and forget about those
> unpronounceable uppercase codes that still reek of punched cards...

I am pleased you find it useful. I certainly find it easy to
use. We never wanted to force it upon anybody, and even
though I prefer to use it in posts, I generally tend to add
the Currier transcription as well, as this is understood
by most people. Of course, EVA words like:

ch(c&176;h')[y|*]

are not pronouncible and extremely un-nice. But then again,

1)this cannot be represented in any other alphabet (though
  Frogguy can usually come very close)
2) it is very rare, and
3) the future EVA hand-1 font will represent it properly,
   after one VTT run.
4) VTT / Bitrans may be used to convert it to chcthy or SQ9
   very quickly (or was that SX9...).

Cheers. Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 10 04:56:08 1997
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Mik Clarke wrote:

> we may have a section on plant diseases, rather than on plants.

One of the options indeed. Or just plant 'features' rather than
plants. Just like the last few pages of a plant book I have
at home. All normal pages have pictures of real plants,
but the last few pages have hand-drawn plants and fragments
accompanied by a list of 'technical terms'. E.g. a
stem with a few leaves, the number 56 written near a
little blob and and item '56: bracteole' in the
list. (There is indeed one VMs plant illustration that
seems to be just this: a demonstration of bracts
and/or bracteoles).

A third option is that someone had an unillustrated Herbal,
which he translated, providing the illustrations as
he understood them. Of course, we can have a combination
of this and one of the above...

What's perhaps significant is that 'normal' herbals
would have pages with a certain repeated structure,
and this we do not observe. (It may be there but we don't
see it)

I can recommend getting a complete copy from Yale. The
few images available in the literature and on the web
do not do the Ms justice.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 10 05:53:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:32:07 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Vms Character Set Analysis
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Hello all,
I am going to have to post this stuff in sections as I recreate the work, so
here is section number 1.

My original transcription character set contained 39 characters, most of
which are represented by other transcription methods, with some
irregularities/disagreements.  The methodology behind my character set was
to echo the author's intentions as best I could by representing connected
items as a character and clearly separated items as separate characters
without assumptions on my part.  Later on I reduced the character set
through analysis, but the figures below represent the original transcription
work.  I don't want to intermingle data from different sections, so right
now I'm only working with the herbal section.

Points of division can be words, lines, paragraphs, pages, quires or
sections.  The page is a basic unit for general study.  I was surprised to
find that the total number of characters on a page had very little to do
with the number of unique characters on each  page.  I would have expected
more characters to show up in higher volumes of text and lower counts in
lower volumes.  Although a few pages used up to 28 of my 39 character set,
most remained at 24 or below.  The pages with higher counts also had higher
counts of single character occurrences, and once these were analysed the
numbers became more stabilized - but I am getting ahead of myself.

Here we see an average character set per page in the low 20's,  (23
average),  just barely over half the characters represented in the character
set.  We may use as many characters as we want in multiple random alphabets,
but only a certain number would be displayed when any given alphabet is in
use.  That number would be indicative of the number of cleartext characters
in the alphabet.  (Picture a Vigenere table, only with different alphabets
written in each block).  If the system was polyalphabetic, this would
indicate a low number of alphabets used on any given page, an assumption
that points toward a simpler form of polyalphabeticity than I would have
expected from the text.

This opened up many more questions in my mind:  Did paragraphs on the same
page share similar distribution statistics?  How many pages used the exact
same character sets, and if so, how did their distributions compare?  Were
the one-time character representations actually unique characters, or were
they forms of a more common character?

A little off-track, but curious to know, what mechanism can anyone think of
in a created or natural language that would account for the figures below,
given an initial character set of 39?

Anyway, my next step was to stick with the page analysis at first and
compare pages with like character sets.  This analysis I will post as soon
as I have recreated it.


Regards,   Rayman

(best viewed in proportional font)
(Folio, total number of characters on page, total unique characters per
page)
01r,746,24
01v,318,24
02r,351,25
02v,217,23
03r,471,26
03v,317,28
04r,229,24
04v,313,27
05r,210,24
05v,182,23
06r,291,27
07v,281,24
08r,544,26
08v,426,24
09r,305,22
09v,307,23
10r,329,22
10v,197,20
11r,192,21
11v,169,24
13r,283,24
13v,237,23
14r,282,21
14v,261,23
15r,317,22
15v,231,19
16r,309,22
16v,274,22
17r,305,22
17v,512,24
18r,320,23
18v,255,19
19r,271,20
19v,288,20
20r,365,22
20v,288,22
21r,383,22
21v,208,19
22r,383,23
22v,292,19
23r,392,20
23v,343,27
24r,371,25
24v,325,27
25r,180,22
25v,210,20
26r,355,26
26v,393,21
27r,305,28
27v,226,18
28r,269,22
28v,230,25
29r,233,21
29v,317,19
30r,374,24
30v,251,23
31r,424,22
31v,445,23
32r,282,25
32v,271,24
33r,297,22
33v,373,23
34r,569,24
34v,474,23
35r,317,23
35v,310,22
36r,220,23
36v,265,23
37r,290,21
37v,347,25
38r,147,19
38v,214,19
39r,608,27
39v,519,22
40r,368,22
40v,419,22
41r,467,24
41v,308,20
42r,512,24
42v,408,24
43r,645,24
43v,654,24
44r,305,21
44v,348,23
45r,325,21
45v,303,22
46r,638,27
46v,462,23
47r,264,24
47v,308,23
48r,407,22
48v,512,23
49r,436,21
49v,570,25
50r,394,20
50v,412,21
51r,381,21
51v,335,21

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 11 02:44:07 1997
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Stolfi wrote:

> (By the way, if p is the fraction of 15th century books that
> have survived to this day, then a priori the probability of the
> VMs (or any other book) being the original is also p. Since p is
> certainly less than 1/2, it seems that we should assume the VMs
> is a copy, until there is evidence to the contrary.)

> (Also, if we know of only one surviving copy of some book, then
> 1/p is the correct a priori estimate for the number of copies originall
> made.)

Indeed :-)

Using the same reasoning, and knowing that p will be higher
in the 16th C, the correct estimate for its date would be
'one day before it was found'.
The corollary is that p is close to 1, 1/p is close to 1
so the VMs is unique after all... :-)

Cheers, Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 11 23:17:08 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Word paradigms, again 
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I just got the numbers below from the Bio section
(Friedman's transcription, converted to the EVA alphabet).

After removing bad characters and other garbage, I got
6182 Voynichese "words".

I split each word into (prefix- -midfix- -suffix), where
the prefix and suffix were maximal strings consisting
entirely of the EVA letters { a o y i d l s r m n q },
roughly {A O G I 8 E 2 R K L N M 4 } in FSG.

(This is a decomposition similar to the "paradigms"
proposed some time ago by Robert Firth, Mike Roe, and
others.)

There were 1514 words consisting entirely of these letters;
those words were left unsplit.

Then I counted how many times each prefix, midfix, suffix,
and unsplit word occurred in the input file. Here is 
a sample of what I got (I inserted the dots for clarity):

  freq prefix    freq midfix    freq suffix    freq unsplit
  ---- --------  ---- --------  ---- --------  ---- --------
  1886 -          823 -k-       1728 -dy        186 ol          
  1296 qo-        585 -che-     1241 -y         126 qol         
   607 o-         514 -she-      422 -aiin      106 d.aiin       
   255 ol-        386 -kee-      254 -al         71 d.al         
   209 l-         354 -t-        245 -ol         64 d.ar         
   108 y-         347 -ke-       157 -ar         56 s.aiin       
    75 d-         179 -te-        86 -ain        55 or          
    45 r-         121 -ch-        66 -or         50 s.ol         
    36 qol-       113 -tee-       51 -d          48 dy          
    29 s-         105 -shee-      36 -s          36 aiin        
    21 s.ol-       95 -chee-      28 -d.ar       28 d.ol         
    12 dy-         82 -sh-        25 -d.al       25 ol.y         
     8 s.al-       58 -p.che-     21 -am         21 l.ol         
     7 s.o-        49 -ch.ckh-    20 -           21 s.al         
     6 d.al-       38 -k.ch-      20 -al.y       18 ar          
     6 ol.o-       37 -p-         16 -a          18 iin         
     5 a-          33 -t.che-     16 -l          18 raiin       
     5 d.ol-       31 -she.ckh-   13 -ol.dy      17 s.or         
     4 al-         28 -t.ch-      12 -d.aiin     15 al          
     4 lo-         27 -k.che-     10 -air        15 s.ar         
     4 or-         26 -ch.cth-    10 -ar.y       14 s           
     3 o.qo-       25 -che.ckh-   10 -r          13 ol.or        
     3 qo.d-       25 -sh.ckh-     9 -al.dy      12 ol.ol        
     2 dl-         24 -she.k-      7 -as         12 r.ol         
     2 do-         22 -k.she-      6 -a.dy       11 m           
     2 l.ol-       17 -che.cth-    6 -al.or      11 r.al         
     2 ol.ol-      17 -che.k-      6 -d.ol       11 y           
     2 qo.qo-      17 -ee-         6 -d.or       10 l.or         
     2 qor-        17 -t.she-      6 -o          10 ol.dy        
     2 r.ol-       16 -p.ch-       6 -oiin       10 r           
     1 al.o-       14 -f.che-      6 -s.dy        9 d.ain        
     1 ar.o-       13 -cth-        6 -s.y         9 ol.aiin      
     1 d.ar-       13 -cthe-       5 -ol.y        8 d.am         
     1 d.or-       12 -ch.ckhe-    4 -al.ol       8 l.dy         
     1 l.d-        12 -sh.cth-     4 -an          8 l.y          
     1 od-         11 -keee-       4 -d.am        8 or.y         
     1 od.d-       10 -ckhe-       4 -m           8 qor         
     1 ol.l-       10 -sh.ckhe-    4 -o.dy        7 l           
     1 or.o-       10 -she.cth-    3 -a.y         7 or.ol        
   ... ...        ... ...        ... ....       ... ...
  ---- --------  ---- --------  ---- --------  ---- --------
  4668 TOTAL     4668 TOTAL     4668 TOTAL     1514 TOTAL


Analysis:

  We can say that there are two classes of Voynich words,
  "soft" and "mixed".

  The "soft" words are composed entirely of the "soft" letters
  { a o y i d l s r m n q }.

  The "mixed" words have a soft prefix (possibly empty) and a
  soft suffix (possibly empty) surrounding a core made entirely
  of "hard" letters { k t p f ckh ctk cph cfh sh ch e }

The non-trivial part of this paradigm is that the core is a
*single* cluster of hard letters.  

If the words were random strings, we would expect a
significant number of words with two or more "hard"
kernels---i.e. soft letters surrounded by hard letters.
But we don't see that. There are a few exceptions, sure,
but they are rare (below 1%), and many of them contain
embedded "q"s and "y"---so they are likely to be the
result of lost word breaks.

By the way, it seems that prefixes, suffixes, midfixes,
and soft words have a finer structure:

   As we all know, "q" is almost always word-initial, and
   followed by "o".

   Similarly, "y" "m" "n" is almost always word-final.

   There are several other pairs of soft letters that, like
   "qo", behave almost as single letters, e.g. 
   { ar am air dy ol or ... }  I have separated these
   pairs with periods in the listing above.

   The "e"s in the midfix seem to be part of the preceding
   letter; so the groups { ke te che she kee tee chee shee ckhe
   } may be single letters.  (There may be more, e.g. { keee }.
   The { ee }s may be { ch }s without ligatures.)

Possible interpretations:

  (0) The VMs is written in cypher. I will leave this 
      hypothesis to the crypto experts to explore.

  (1) The Voynich "words" are syllabes; the two classes
      of letters defined above are basically the vowels and
      consonants. 

      Which class is which? Note that there are many words made
      entirely of soft letters, but no words made entirely of
      hard letters.  Also, the empty prefix occurs very often,
      while the empty midfix and prefix are rare.  Thus it
      seems that 

         soft letters are vowels.

         hard letters are consonants.

      Note that the soft letters may include sounds like
      "y", "w", "s", "l", "n", "m" which may work as 
      vowel modifiers rather than consonants proper.  

      Keeping this in mind, the statistics for syllabes of each
      type are:

         type  freq  perc
         ----  ----  ----
         V     1514  24 %
         CV    1876  30 %
         VCV   2772  45 %
         VC      20   0 %
         C       10   0 %

      Here V stands for one or more vowels, C for one or more 
      consonants.

      Note that there are about 10-12 significant prefixes,
      and about 20 significant suffixes; which offhand
      seems right for many languages, including English 
      (12 vowel sounds, a couple dozen vowel clusters). 

      The number of consonants seems a bit to high: around 20
      "simple" consonants, plus a long tail of consonant 
      pairs.  But who knows...

      A problem with this theory is why would the author
      choose to mark off syllabe breaks instead of words
      breaks.

  (2) This is like hypothesis (1), but for a tonal language like 
      Chinese or Vietnamese. The difference is mainly
      that some of the letters (soft ones, presumably) 
      would have to indicate the tones.

      This alternative has the merit that, in Chinese,
      the syllabes are indeed the natural unit of text.
      On the other hand, the "V" syllabes may be hard to explain
      (unless some of my "soft" letters are actually consonants).

  (3) Voynichese is an agglutinative language
      like Turkish: the "hard" letters are the stem of the
      word, and the soft letters are modifying affixes.

  (4) Voychinese is a semitic language like Arabic or Hebrew;
      the prefix, midfix, and suffix correspond to the
      three basic consonants, and attached vowels.

Does any of this make sense?

Best regards,

--stolfi

From reeds Wed Nov 12 08:54:21 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9711120854.ZM5761@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:54:21 -0500
In-Reply-To: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
        "Word paradigms, again" (Nov 12,  2:09)
References: <199711120409.CAA12495@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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On Nov 12,  2:09, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> 
> I just got the numbers below from the Bio section
> (Friedman's transcription, converted to the EVA alphabet).
...
> 
>   We can say that there are two classes of Voynich words,
>   "soft" and "mixed".
...

>   (1) The Voynich "words" are syllabes; the two classes
>       of letters defined above are basically the vowels and
>       consonants
...
> Does any of this make sense?

Very much so, I think.

Calling a VCV a "syllable" seems a bit odd, but maybe some of the suffixes or
prefixes represent grammatical modifiers rather than strictly phonological
items like "vowels". Thus, "aquarum" might be split into "a" + "qu" + "arum",
and "aedibus" = "ae" + "d" + "ibus", where the suffixes (in these examples, but
not always) represent morphemes (if that's the right word) rather than phoneme
clusters. This can be taken as a possible modification of Stolfi's idea that

      ... the soft letters may include sounds like
      "y", "w", "s", "l", "n", "m" which may work as 
      vowel modifiers rather than consonants proper.  

At any rate such an idea would explain why some soft clusters appear at the
fronts of words only, and others only at the ends of words.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 12 11:02:09 1997
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Dear all,

Stolfi's scheme is excellent. A few points worth noting:
[Currier notation in square brackets]

- the prefix is really detacheable, but the suffix seems
  to be almost obligatory. 'No prefix' is one third of
  the cases and '(q)o-' [(4)O-] another third.
- the sequences of 'e' [C] are part of the 'stem' and the
  sequences of 'i' [I] are part of the suffix.
- The two points above combined immediately bring
  back the parallel with roman numerals.
- this is weird: the two most frequent options in each
  category will combine to 8 possible words. Only 3 of
  these are actually frequent (chedy, chey and qoky)
  [SC89, SC9, 4OF9].
- word lists of the other sections indicate that this
  scheme is also mostly applicable to them, but there
  are some systematically deviating word patterns
  (shocthol, chocthey, ychykchy in Herbal A).
  [ZOQOE, SOQC9, 9S9FS9]. Often the 'hard core' is split
  up by a single 'o' [O] or 'y' [9] but weirder things
  may happen. Note that according to Frogguy's analysis,
  Herbal-o could be equivalent to Biological-ee.
- there are extremely few words which consist of only
  a stem ('chef' [SCV] and 'chek' [SCF] come to mind).
- the incompatible words deserve a closer look. I would
  not like to discard them immediately as 'probably
  transcription errors'. In the 'plain-language-transcribed-
  in-a-strange-manner' scheme these are prime candidates
  for being foreign words.

Cheers, Rene


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To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jim Finnis <jcf@broadsword.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Word paradigms, again
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At 16:54 12/11/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>Dear all,
>
>Stolfi's scheme is excellent. A few points worth noting:
>[Currier notation in square brackets]
>

I'm impressed by it too... what I would like to know is 
if it's possible to classify words by the suffixes and
prefixes they take, and then match these word classes
with common positions within a line.

For example, we may find that words of class "A" take
prefixes X,Y and Z and suffixes Q,P and R; and that
these words more usually appear at the beginning of
a line. 

Information like this may allow us to speculate on the
language.

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Subject: Re: Word paradigms, again
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    > [Rene:] Words can be split in soft, mixed, and then also 'different'.
    > 'Different' were the unreadable or uncertain ones (how many?)

By my count, Friedman's version of the bio section (the one I used)
has only 27 words with "*" characters:

  *shey * ka* she* *chor she** o*y ka*l o** * qoka* che*y qot* o*edy
  or*sy k** *shey o** qo*edy chea*ror k*** *cheol *chedy **s *chedy *
  *olokeedy

I considered only the first alternative in each '[|]' group;
Unfortunately I don't have the count of how many such groups there were.

However, there are more differences between the Currier and Friedman
transcriptions than "*" characters in either of them. So the "noise" is far
from negligible. 

We must keep in mind that any isolated pattern that occurs in 1% of
the words may well be due to transcription errors...

    > and the few which just wouldn't follow the pattern. I'm
    > curious about these last ones. These may 'foreign' words
    > (names, etc).
    
Since the prefix and/or suffix may be empty, *every* word that is not
all-soft can be uniquely factored as prefix-root-suffix, where
the root begins and ends with a hard letter.

The paradigm becomes non-trivial, however, if we require the root to
contain ONLY hard letters. In fact, there are only 113 words
occurrences in the bio section (out of 6000+) whose roots do not fit
this restricted paradigm. The most common such root occurs 4 times,
and most of them occur only once each. They did not show up in my
previous message, since I had truncated the root list at the
10-count level.

So here are all the anomalous (soft-containing) roots, and their
counts:

  4 -polche-    1 -cheyq-       1 -kop-      1 -qckh-    1 -shoksh- 
  4 -shok-      1 -chlchpshee-  1 -korch-    1 -qckhe-   1 -shot-   
  3 -polsh-     1 -cholche-     1 -kot-      1 -qcphe-   1 -talshe- 
  3 -qee-       1 -cholkeee-    1 -kych-     1 -qcthe-   1 -tchdolt-
  3 -qet-       1 -chop-        1 -kylk-     1 -qeedee-  1 -tchot-  
  2 -chedch     1 -chot-        1 -palch-    1 -qeee-    1 -teae-   
  2 -chep-      1 -chytee-      1 -palk-     1 -qek-     1 -tedee-  
  2 -chok-      1 -eat-         1 -palshe-   1 -qekch-   1 -teyte-  
  2 -polch-     1 -eese-        1 -pdalsh-   1 -qepche-  1 -tocthe- 
  2 -q-         1 -kalch-       1 -pockh-    1 -qete-    1 -tok-    
  2 -qche-      1 -keedyqok-    1 -pok-      1 -qp-      1 -tolke-  
  2 -qcth-      1 -keeylshe-    1 -poldak-   1 -qsolkee- 1 -torolsh-  
  2 -qe-        1 -keeyshe-     1 -poldshe-  1 -qyk-     1 -tot-    
  2 -talsh-     1 -keylch-      1 -polk-     1 -shdyq-   1 -tsheok  
  1 -cheak-     1 -kok-         1 -polkee-   1 -sheok-   1 -tyot-   
  1 -chedch-    1 -kolch-       1 -polshe-   1 -sheyk-   1 -tyqok-  
  1 -chedyk-    1 -kolche-      1 -poltesh-  1 -shockh-  
  1 -cheok-     1 -kolk-        1 -porshe-   1 -shocphe- 
  1 -cheolch-   1 -kolsh-       1 -pyke-     1 -shoe-   

Actually, the 27 root occurrences in this list that begin
with "-q" should not be here at all: they are consequences of a
slight bug in my parser (it only parsed "q" as part of the prefix
if it was followed by "o").

Also, the 23 root occurrences that begin with "po" are listed here
only because I assumed that that "p" was always a "hard" letter. But
we have conjectured before that "p" is sort of a "joker"---probably
an "ornate capital" that can be used for several distinct letters,
much as the "gallows" in Cappelli's illustration.

So the "po"s above may well be "do"s or "qo"s; in that case they
should have been parsed as part of the prefix--leaving a kosher
hard-only root.

So we are left with 64 occurrences of truly anomalous roots. That is
only 1% of the sample, and seems well within the range of
transcription errors (such as omitted spaces). For instance, the
-chedyk- root comes from the word "chedykar" which may well be a
"chedy" and a "kar" (two fairly common words) run together.

For completeness, here is the full list of all roots with
less than 10 occurrences each, including the anomalous 
ones listed above:

  9 -cheek-   2 -chedche-     1 -cholkeee-  1 -pchcfh-     1 -sheee-
  9 -chet-    2 -chep-        1 -chop-      1 -pdalsh-     1 -sheekch-
  9 -chk-     2 -chok-        1 -chot-      1 -pe-         1 -sheeke-
  9 -pshe-    2 -chte-        1 -chpche-    1 -pockh-      1 -sheekee-
  9 -shet-    2 -ep-          1 -chsh-      1 -pok-        1 -sheete-
  7 -ckh-     2 -fch-         1 -chytee-    1 -poldak-     1 -shekee-
  7 -psh-     2 -keshe-       1 -eat-       1 -poldshe-    1 -sheok-
  7 -sheet-   2 -pchee-       1 -eekee-     1 -polk-       1 -shep-
  7 -tsh-     2 -polch-       1 -eese-      1 -polkee-     1 -shepche-
  6 -eee-     2 -q-           1 -efche-     1 -polshe-     1 -shepshe-
  6 -kesh-    2 -qche-        1 -ek-        1 -poltesh-    1 -shete-
  5 -cht-     2 -qcth-        1 -eke-       1 -porshe-     1 -sheyk-
  5 -shcthe-  2 -qe-          1 -ekee-      1 -psche-      1 -shkch-
  5 -sheckhe- 2 -shecph-      1 -epch-      1 -pshee-      1 -shke-
  5 -sheek-   2 -sheke-       1 -et-        1 -pyke-       1 -shockh-
  5 -shk-     2 -shepch-      1 -fshe-      1 -qckh-       1 -shocphe-
  5 -sht-     2 -talsh-       1 -kalch-     1 -qckhe-      1 -shoe-
  4 -chcphe-  2 -tech-        1 -kchee-     1 -qcphe-      1 -shoksh-
  4 -chcthe-  1 -cfhee-       1 -kechckh-   1 -qcthe-      1 -shot-
  4 -checkhe- 1 -chcph-       1 -keech-     1 -qeedee-     1 -talshe-
  4 -cheet-   1 -cheak-       1 -keedyqok-  1 -qeee-       1 -tchdolt-
  4 -chete-   1 -chech-       1 -keeylshe-  1 -qek-        1 -tchee-
  4 -cph-     1 -checphe-     1 -keeyshe-   1 -qekch-      1 -tchet-
  4 -cphe-    1 -chedch-      1 -keylch-    1 -qepche-     1 -tchot-
  4 -polche-  1 -chedyk-      1 -kok-       1 -qete-       1 -teae-
  4 -shok-    1 -cheeke-      1 -kolch-     1 -qp-         1 -teche-
  3 -chke-    1 -cheke-       1 -kolche-    1 -qsolkee-    1 -tedee-
  3 -e-       1 -chekee-      1 -kolk-      1 -qyk-        1 -teee-
  3 -f-       1 -cheok-       1 -kolsh-     1 -shche-      1 -teyte-
  3 -kech-    1 -cheolch-     1 -kop-       1 -shckhee-    1 -tocthe-
  3 -keche-   1 -chepche-     1 -korch-     1 -shdyq-      1 -tok-
  3 -kede-    1 -cheyq-       1 -kot-       1 -shech-      1 -tolke-
  3 -ksh-     1 -chf-         1 -kych-      1 -shecphe-    1 -torolsh-
  3 -polsh-   1 -chfee-       1 -kylk-      1 -shecthe-    1 -tot-
  3 -qee-     1 -chkch-       1 -palch-     1 -shecthedch- 1 -tsheokee-
  3 -qet-     1 -chkee-       1 -palk-      1 -sheecth-    1 -tyot-
  2 -cfh-     1 -chlchpshee-  1 -palshe-    1 -sheecthe-   1 -tyqok-
  2 -checthe- 1 -cholche-
    
    > - The 'empty prefix' is quite frequent but the empty suffix
    > isn't. This seems to indicate that the 'function' of the
    > prefix is rather different from that of the suffix.
    
Perhaps, but some assymetry would be expected anyway, whether
the "words" are syllabes, words, poetic feet, or even 
artifacts created by ignorant scribes.

    > I have a hunch that some of the stems (roots) have
    > a preference for having a prefix or not.
    
I will try to check this.  Meanwhile, you can get the bio 
word list, already parsed into pref- -root- -suff, through my 
Voynich page

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/
    
    > Most importantly (IMHO of course): the herbal-A and pharma
    > texts are significantly different. Either they follow a
    > very similar pattern or they don't. If it is easy
    > to repeat the exercise you did for some A-language..
    
"Cesteiro que faz um cesto faz um cento"---the basket-maker who makes
one basket can make a hundred, say the Portuguese:

  Language A sample (all herbal): 
    f1r..f25v, f27r..f30v, f32r..f32v, f35r..f38v, 
    f42r..f42v, f44r..f45v, f47r..f47v, f49r, 
    f51r..f54v, f56r..f56v, f87r..f87v, f90r1,
    f90r2, f90v2, f90v1, f93r, f96r..f96v
  
  Language B sample (all herbal): 
    f26r..f26v, f31r..f31v, f33r..f34v, f39r..f41v,
    f43r..f43v, f46r..f46v, f48r, f50r..f50v,
    f55r..f55v, f57r, f66v, f94r..f94v, 
    f95r1, f95r2, f95v2, f95v1

  PREFIXES
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Friedman's transcription            | Currier's transcription      
  ----------------------------------- | -----------------------------------
  language A        language B        | language A        language B       
  ----------------- ----------------- | ----------------- -----------------
  occs %% prefix    occs %% prefix    | occs %% prefix    occs %% prefix   
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- 
  3656 61 -         1234 51 -         | 3256 62 -          973 51 -        
   807 14 o-         490 20 o-        |  743 14 o-         379 20 o-       
   603 10 qo-        300 12 qo-       |  523 10 qo-        213 11 qo-      
   424  7 y-         216  9 y-        |  363  7 y-         188 10 y-       
   201  3 d-          57  2 ol-       |  173  3 d-          45  2 ol-      
    55  1 s-          35  1 d-        |   34  1 s-          24  1 d-       
    33  1 ol-         26  1 l-        |   26  1 ol-         22  1 l-       
    20  0 so-         10  0 dy-       |   17  0 so-          9  1 dy-      
    15  0 l-           9  0 a-        |   12  0 dy-          8  0 a-       
    13  0 dy-          6  0 s-        |   12  0 l-           5  0 s-       
    12  0 r-           5  0 al-       |    9  0 or-          3  0 da-      
    10  0 oy-          3  0 a:i-      |    8  0 oy-          3  0 lo-      
     9  0 or-          3  0 dal-      |    7  0 da:i-        2  0 a:i-     
     6  0 da:i-        3  0 lo-       |    6  0 do-          2  0 da:i-    
     6  0 do-          2  0 da:i-     |    5  0 da-          2  0 r-       
     6  0 od-          2  0 do-       |    5  0 qod-         2  0 sol-     
     5  0 os-          2  0 or-       |    5  0 yo-          2  0 ya-      
     5  0 yo-          2  0 qol-      |    4  0 da:ii-       1  0 :iir-    
     4  0 qod-         2  0 r-        |    3  0 :iiin-       1  0 a:ii-    
     4  0 ro-          1  0 a:ii-     |    3  0 lo-          1  0 a:iino-  
     4  0 sol-         1  0 ad-       |    3  0 od-          1  0 al-      
     3  0 a-           1  0 ao-       |    3  0 os-          1  0 ao-      
     3  0 da-          1  0 ar-       |    3  0 yd-          1  0 da:ii-   
     3  0 dol-         1  0 ara-      |    2  0 a-           1  0 dal-     
     3  0 lo-          1  0 da-       |    2  0 dol-         1  0 dar-     
     3  0 sy-          1  0 dalo-     |    2  0 lol-         1  0 do-      
     3  0 yd-          1  0 dol-      |    2  0 oda:i-       1  0 dol-     
     2  0 al-          1  0 dor-      |    2  0 qoo-         1  0 lol-     
     2  0 da:in-       1  0 lol-      |    2  0 qoy-         1  0 od-      
     2  0 dal-         1  0 lqo-      |    2  0 ro-          1  0 olo-     
     2  0 dor-         1  0 o:n-      |    2  0 sy-          1  0 or-      
     2  0 old-         1  0 od-       |    1  0 :iiiny-      1  0 ora:iin- 
     2  0 qoda:i-      1  0 olo-      |    1  0 :m-          1  0 orol-    
     1  0 :i-          1  0 orol-     |    1  0 :mo-         1  0 oy-      
     1  0 :iiin-       1  0 oy-       |    1  0 da:iiin-     1  0 qol-     
     1  0 a:i-         1  0 sa:i-     |    1  0 da:ir-       1  0 qoy-     
   ... .. ...        ... .. ...       |  ... .. ...          1  0 sa:i-    
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- ---------
  5967 99 TOTAL     2431 99 TOTAL     | 5272 99 TOTAL     1902 99 TOTAL    



  ROOTS ("MIDFIXES")
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Friedman's transcription            | Currier's transcription      
  ----------------------------------- | -----------------------------------
  language A        language B        | language A        language B       
  ----------------- ----------------- | ----------------- -----------------
  occs %% root      occs %% root      | occs %% root      occs %% root   
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- ---------
  1045 18 -ch-       407 17 -k-       |  985 19 -ch-       288 15 -k-      
   526  9 -sh-       183  8 -t-       |  470  9 -sh-       155  8 -ke-     
   469  8 -k-        179  7 -ke-      |  438  8 -k-        138  7 -che-    
   444  7 -t-        172  7 -ch-      |  427  8 -t-        127  7 -ch-     
   353  6 -cth-      163  7 -che-     |  298  6 -cth-      116  6 -t-      
   335  6 -tch-      110  5 -she-     |  280  5 -tch-       88  5 -kee-    
   297  5 -kch-      101  4 -kee-     |  260  5 -kch-       85  5 -te-     
   251  4 -che-       95  4 -te-      |  201  4 -che-       75  4 -she-    
   142  2 -she-       79  3 -sh-      |   95  2 -she-       65  3 -sh-     
   104  2 -ckh-       64  3 -kch-     |   86  2 -ckh-       45  2 -kch-    
    95  2 -ke-        45  2 -tch-     |   73  1 -pch-       36  2 -chckh-  
    90  2 -kee-       43  2 -chckh-   |   69  1 -ke-        32  2 -chek-   
    77  1 -pch-       42  2 -chek-    |   63  1 -cph-       26  1 -shee-   
    60  1 -cph-       33  1 -tee-     |   60  1 -kee-       25  1 -tee-    
    60  1 -te-        27  1 -p-       |   49  1 -tche-      21  1 -pche-   
    58  1 -chee-      27  1 -pch-     |   48  1 -chot-      20  1 -ckh-    
    55  1 -cthe-      26  1 -pche-    |   47  1 -chok-      20  1 -tch-    
    54  1 -ksh-       23  1 -chee-    |   41  1 -ksh-       19  1 -p-      
    52  1 -tche-      23  1 -shee-    |   40  1 -kche-      18  1 -chee-   
    50  1 -kche-      22  1 -tche-    |   40  1 -p-         17  1 -pch-    
    49  1 -chot-      21  1 -f-       |   39  1 -chee-      17  1 -tche-   
    46  1 -chok-      19  1 -ckh-     |   39  1 -tsh-       14  1 -cthe-   
    41  1 -tee-       19  1 -kche-    |   32  1 -cthe-      13  1 -f-      
    40  1 -p-         18  1 -ee-      |   32  1 -te-        12  1 -kche-   
    39  1 -tsh-       17  1 -fch-     |   28  1 -chckh-     11  1 -cth-    
    36  1 -shee-      16  1 -cthe-    |   28  1 -chcth-     11  1 -fch-    
    34  1 -ckhe-      15  1 -chk-     |   28  1 -chk-       10  1 -chk-    
    30  1 -chk-       13  1 -cth-     |   28  1 -shee-      10  1 -ee-     
    29  1 -chcth-     12  1 -chcth-   |   25  1 -tee-       10  1 -shek-   
    28  1 -chckh-     12  1 -shek-    |   19  0 -chocth-     9  1 -cheke-  
    25  0 -eee-       10  0 -checkh-  |   19  0 -chokch-     9  1 -ckhe-   
    24  0 -ee-        10  0 -ksh-     |   19  0 -ckhe-       8  0 -checkh- 
    23  0 -fch-        9  0 -kshe-    |   19  0 -eee-        8  0 -fche-   
    21  0 -cfh-        9  0 -tshe-    |   18  0 -cht-        7  0 -chcth-  
    20  0 -chocth-     8  0 -cheke-   |   18  0 -e-          6  0 -chef-   
    20  0 -cht-        8  0 -tsh-     |   17  0 -ee-         6  0 -chet-   
    20  0 -f-          7  0 -ckhe-    |   17  0 -fch-        6  0 -eee-    
    19  0 -chokch-     7  0 -fche-    |   15  0 -f-          6  0 -shk-    
    19  0 -pche-       6  0 -chet-    |   15  0 -pche-       5  0 -keee-   
    18  0 -cphe-       6  0 -eee-     |   14  0 -kshe-       5  0 -tsh-    
    17  0 -e-          5  0 -chckhe-  |   13  0 -g-          5  0 -tshe-   
    14  0 -keee-       5  0 -chef-    |   12  0 -cfh-        4  0 -cheek-  
    14  0 -kshe-       5  0 -chok-    |   10  0 -choke-      4  0 -chefch- 
    12  0 -shot-       5  0 -kech-    |   10  0 -chotch-     4  0 -cheok-  
    11  0 -chockh-     5  0 -pshe-    |   10  0 -keee-       4  0 -chep-   
    11  0 -choke-      5  0 -shk-     |   10  0 -shot-       4  0 -chete-  
    11  0 -chotch-     4  0 -chep-    |    9  0 -chet-       4  0 -chkee-  
    11  0 -tchee-      4  0 -chete-   |    9  0 -cphe-       4  0 -cphe-   
    10  0 -chet-       4  0 -cht-     |    9  0 -tchee-      4  0 -e-      
   ... .. ...        ... .. ...       |  ... .. ...        ... .. ...      
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- ---------
  5967 99 TOTAL     2431 99 TOTAL     | 5272 99 TOTAL     1902 99 TOTAL    



  SUFFIXES
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Friedman's transcription            | Currier's transcription      
  ----------------------------------- | -----------------------------------
  language A        language B        | language A        language B       
  ----------------- ----------------- | ----------------- -----------------
  occs %% suffix    occs %% suffix    | occs %% suffix    occs %% suffix   
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- ---------
  1816 30 -y         639 26 -dy       | 1611 31 -y         533 28 -dy      
   903 15 -ol        533 22 -y        |  815 16 -ol        436 23 -y       
   705 12 -or        168  7 -ar       |  662 13 -or        129  7 -ar      
   360  6 -o         143  6 -aiin     |  304  6 -aiin       92  5 -ody     
   316  5 -aiin      111  5 -ody      |  262  5 -o          84  4 -aiin    
   218  4 -ody        97  4 -ol       |  168  3 -ody        84  4 -ol      
   174  3 -ar         84  4 -al       |  156  3 -ar         57  3 -al      
   124  2 -           63  3 -         |  145  3 -           52  3 -        
   104  2 -al         51  2 -or       |   92  2 -al         39  2 -or      
    76  1 -odaiin     44  2 -o        |   60  1 -od         35  2 -am      
    76  1 -s          40  2 -am       |   60  1 -s          27  1 -s       
    71  1 -os         34  1 -daiin    |   59  1 -odaiin     26  1 -d       
    69  1 -od         33  1 -d        |   58  1 -am         25  1 -o       
    66  1 -om         31  1 -os       |   55  1 -ain        25  1 -os      
    61  1 -am         30  1 -s        |   51  1 -oiin       23  1 -ain     
    49  1 -oiin       28  1 -dar      |   48  1 -om         23  1 -dar     
    48  1 -ain        26  1 -ain      |   41  1 -os         16  1 -daiin   
    40  1 -oldy       19  1 -od       |   39  1 -oy         15  1 -air     
    35  1 -oy         15  1 -air      |   36  1 -oldy       14  1 -dal     
    29  1 -an         14  1 -dal      |   34  1 -an         10  1 -od      
    29  1 -oly        11  1 -aly      |   28  1 -oly         9  1 -aly     
    27  1 -ory        10  0 -aldy     |   25  1 -ory         8  0 -aldy    
    26  0 -odar        9  0 -odaiin   |   23  0 -dy          8  0 -dain    
    24  0 -a           7  0 -dain     |   18  0 -odar        8  0 -dam     
    23  0 -dy          7  0 -dam      |   15  0 -oaiin       7  0 -odaiin  
    15  0 -odal        6  0 -a        |   15  0 -odain       5  0 -odar    
    14  0 -oaiin       6  0 -ary      |   15  0 -odal        5  0 -oldy    
    14  0 -yd          6  0 -odar     |   11  0 -l           4  0 -ary     
    12  0 -d           6  0 -oy       |   11  0 -ydy         4  0 -dair    
    12  0 -n           5  0 -dair     |   10  0 -r           4  0 -oar     
    12  0 -ydy         4  0 -dol      |   10  0 -sy          4  0 -oly     
    10  0 -air         4  0 -oar      |    9  0 -air         4  0 -oy      
    10  0 -l           4  0 -odal     |    9  0 -yd          4  0 -sy      
    10  0 -odain       4  0 -oldy     |    7  0 -aiir        3  0 -aiir    
    10  0 -ols         4  0 -sy       |    7  0 -olol        3  0 -dol     
   ... .. ...        ... .. ...       |  ... .. ...        ... .. ...      
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- ---------
  5967 99 TOTAL     2431 99 TOTAL     | 5272 99 TOTAL     1902 99 TOTAL    



  "SOFT" WORDS
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Friedman's transcription            | Currier's transcription      
  ----------------------------------- | -----------------------------------
  language A        language B        | language A        language B
  ----------------- ----------------- | ----------------- -----------------
  occs %% unifix    occs %% unifix    | occs %% unifix    occs %% unifix
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- ---------
   412 22 daiin       86 11 daiin     |  367 21 daiin       60  9 daiin
    88  5 dy          55  7 or        |  108  6 dy          45  7 or
    87  5 s           50  6 dar       |  100  6 s           43  6 ar
    74  4 dain        40  5 aiin      |   83  5 dain        41  6 aiin
    71  4 dar         39  5 ar        |   62  4 dar         41  6 dar
    52  3 or          31  4 ol        |   50  3 ol          38  6 dy
    47  3 dal         28  4 dy        |   43  3 dal         20  3 ol
    45  2 ol          25  3 dal       |   43  3 or          19  3 saiin
    40  2 dol         25  3 saiin     |   42  2 dol         18  3 s
    34  2 dam         17  2 dam       |   40  2 dor         17  3 dal
    34  2 dor         14  2 ody       |   37  2 y           17  3 dam
    33  2 saiin       12  2 oraiin    |   28  2 dam         12  2 al
    26  1 dair        12  2 s         |   27  2 dair        10  2 ain
    24  1 sy           9  1 al        |   26  2 d           10  2 ody
    19  1 odaiin       8  1 olaiin    |   22  1 odaiin       9  1 oraiin
    18  1 ar           8  1 r         |   21  1 aiin         8  1 dain
    17  1 d            7  1 ain       |   20  1 r            8  1 y
    16  1 m            7  1 dair      |   20  1 saiin        7  1 dair
    16  1 sor          7  1 odaiin    |   19  1 sy           7  1 olaiin
    16  1 y            7  1 y         |   15  1 ar           6  1 aiir
    15  1 aiin         6  1 dol       |   12  1 dan          6  1 am
    15  1 r            6  1 raiin     |   11  1 o            6  1 sar
    15  1 sol          5  1 am        |   11  1 oaiin        5  1 aiiin
    14  1 sar          5  1 dain      |   11  1 qodaiin      5  1 dor
    13  1 qodaiin      5  1 dor       |   11  1 sor          5  1 odaiin
    12  1 sal          5  1 m         |   10  1 do           5  1 orain
    10  1 al           5  1 sair      |    9  1 doiin        5  1 sair
    10  1 oaiin        5  1 sar       |    9  1 sal          4  1 air
    10  1 ody          4  1 araiin    |    9  1 sol          4  1 daly
     9  1 am           4  1 daly      |    9  1 ydaiin       4  1 dol
     9  1 dan          4  1 iin       |    8  1 l            4  1 odain
     9  1 do           4  1 ldy       |    7  0 al           4  1 oldy
     9  1 raiin        4  1 oldy      |    7  0 daiiin       4  1 oly
     9  1 ydaiin       4  1 oly       |    7  0 dom          3  0 aly
     8  0 doiin        4  1 orain     |    7  0 om           3  0 daiir
     8  0 os           3  0 alaiin    |    7  0 qoaiin       3  0 daram
   ... .. ...        ... .. ...       |  ... .. ...        ... .. ...      
  ---- -- --------- ---- -- --------- | ---- -- --------- ---- -- ---------
  1845 99 TOTAL      792 99 TOTAL       1718 99 TOTAL      685 99 TOTAL


    > then it may perhaps (wishful thinking alert) be possible to
    > conclude
    
Having dumped the numbers, I will generously leave the analysis to
the readers 8-).

I will only point out that the word structure (coarse and fine) does
seem to be the same in both languages; but a few elements have
vastly different frequencies. For instance

  in language B, the "-dy" suffix ocurs in 30% of the mixed words;
  in language A, "-dy" is almost absent.  
  
  in language A, "k" and "t" are more common than "ch" and "sh";
  while in language B it is the opposite.

On the other hand, the prefixes and all-soft words have
basically the same frequencies in both languages.

    > either that the base language is the same but the
    > 'encoding' different (dialectical differences might fall into
    > this category) or that there is no match at all, i.e. the
    > underlying language could be different.
    
Another possibility is that the two scribes were translating
from another language, and each chose a different "grammatical
viewpoint" (active/passive, imperative/indefinite/subjunctive, etc.).
For instance, even in English one can write

  "if you TAKE this potion you WILL BECOME invisible"
  "if you WERE TO TAKE this potion, you WOULD BECOME invisible"
  "he who TAKES this potion WILL BECOME invisible"
  "he who TAKES this potion BECOMES invisible"
  "TAKE this potion in order TO BECOME invisible" 
  "TAKE this potion and you WILL BECOME invisible" 
  
etc. The concept works even better for Romance languages, where 
different tenses and persons require different verb endings:

  "se TOMARES esta poo, FICARS invisvel"
  "se TOMASSES esta poo, FICARIAS invisvel"
  "se TOMARDES esta poo, FICAREIS invisvel"
  "se TOMASSEIS esta poo, FICAREIS invisvel"
  "quem TOMAR esta poo FICAR invisvel"
  "TOMA esta poo para FICARES invisvel"
  "TOME esta poo para FICAR invisvel"
  "TOMA esta poo e FICARS invisvel"
  "TOMAI esta poo e FICAREIS invisvel"
  
and so on. Now, one of the rules of good writing is
"pick one viewpoint, and stick to it..."

    > One of the things I want to do (some day) is to display
    > he voynich text of one page (in  EVA or the 'real thing')
    > ith colour-coding. Then stare at the result until the 
    > solution is found :-)
    
(-8 Good idea. Meanwhile, for practice, we may stare a bit at this:

  lu3 xun4 shi4 zhong1 guo2 jin4 dai4 shi3 shang4 zui4 you3 ying3 xiang3 li4
  de wen2 xue2 jia1 gen1 pi1 ping2 jia1 zhi1 yi1 yi1 ba1 ba1 yi1 [sic] nian2
  chu1 sheng1 zai4 zhe4 jiang1 shao4 xing1 yi2ge xiang1 dang1 fu4 yu4 de
  jia1 ting2 li3 tong2 nian2 de shi2 hou yin1 wei4 zu3 fu4 ru4 yu4 fu4 qin
  sheng1 bing4 jia1 ting2 de jing1 ji4 qing2 kuang4 tu1 ran2 bian4 de hen3
  qiong2 kun4 zhe4 zhong3 you2 fu4 yu4 bian4 dao4 qiong2 kun4 de jing1 li4
  rang4 lu3 xun4 ti3 yan4 le bu4 tong2 de sheng1 huo2 zhe4 dui4 ta1 yi3 hou4
  de wen2 xue2 chuang4 zuo4 you3 hen3 da4 de ying3 xiang3 ta1 tong2 nian2 de
  sheng1 huo2 he2 hui2 yi4 dou1 cheng2 le ta1 xie3 zuo4 zui4 hao3 de cai2
  liao4 yin1 wei4 ta1 fu4 qin jing1 chang2 sheng bing4 lu3 xun4 cong2 xiao3
  jiu4 ren4 shi le bu4 shao3 zhong1 yi1

I can provide a colorized version, if you think it might help... 8-)

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 13 05:56:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:58:04 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis
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Status: OR


    > [stolfi:] (By the way, if p is the fraction of 15th century books that
    > have survived to this day, then a priori the probability of the
    > VMs (or any other book) being the original is also p. Since p is
    > certainly less than 1/2, it seems that we should assume the VMs
    > is a copy, until there is evidence to the contrary.)
    > 
    > (Also, if we know of only one surviving copy of some book, then
    > 1/p is the correct a priori estimate for the number of copies originall
    > made.)

    > [Rene:] Indeed :-)

I had only a faint shadow of a smile when I wrote the sentences above.
I admit that such "a priori" probabilistic arguments are tricky, to
say the least, but they do carry some weight. As far as I know, it
*is* true that most books of that time have survived only as copies.

    > [Rene:] Using the same reasoning, and knowing that p will be
    > higher in the 16th C, the correct estimate for its date would be
    > 'one day before it was found'. The corollary is that p is close
    > to 1, 1/p is close to 1 so the VMs is unique after all... :-)

I see the smiley. But just to avoid misunderstandings: we *do* have
reasonably firm evidence that the VMs dates from no later than the
early 16th century; that evidence naturally overrides the a priori
probability. (But the a priori survival-rate argument still
makes a 15th century date much more likely than, say, a 10th century one.)

As for the theory of the VMs being a copy, I still haven't seen any
concrete evidence, for or against. Thus the survival-rate argument is
still quite relevant. The apparent uniqueness of the VMs does not
affect the estimate: it only implies that the number of similar books
in existence at the time is unlikely to have been more than 1/p.

One weakness of the a priori argument is that it assumes the VMs was
just as likely to be copied as any other contemporary book. One may
object that the strange alphabet and unknown language would
increase the cost of copying it, and reduce the motivation for doing so.

However, since the chances of a rare book surviving are proportional to its
number of copies, the fact that the VMs survived still forces us to
assume a priori that it probably had been copied more times than
would be normal for a book of its type. 

I admit that this is a rather convoluted argument, and I confess 
myself unable to turn it into a convincing probabilistic model...

In any case, the objection above can be counterd by observing that
there were quite a few people, such as Dr. Dee and Rudolph II, who
definitely had the motivation and resources to order a copy of the
VMs, in spite of (or even because of) its unintelligibility.

Best regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 13 07:05:10 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:01:17 +0200
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis
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    Stolfi wrote:
    > > (Also, if we know of only one surviving copy of some book, then
    > > 1/p is the correct a priori estimate for the number of
    > > copies originall made.)

    > [Rene:] Indeed :-)

> I had only a faint shadow of a smile when I wrote the sentences
> above.

Mine was also faint. Statistically it is correct, although no
conclusions can be drawn for one individual sample. Essentially,
had we had a long list of books of which one copy survived,
indeed, most of them should have originally consisted of 1/p
copies, but some of them would have been unique too.
It gets more complicated if one wants to take into account
the distribution of Ms books sorted by 'how many copies there
were of it in the 15C'.

> As far as I know, it *is* true that most books of that time
> have survived only as copies.

Absolutely. For one thing, it is reasonable to assume that
the VMs is a fair copy of some draft, but this probably does not
count as the deliberate destruction of drafts was probably not
taken into account in the value of p.
More to the point, there is the possibility that the VMs is
a copy of some other Ms, not written in the Voynich script,
and *we simply do not realise it*. Here it begins to matter
what the value of 'p' is. Have we any idea? How certain
are we that it is less than 0.5?

> we *do* have reasonably firm evidence that the VMs dates from
> no later than the early 16th century;

Yes, the modern fake theory must be considered unlikely, even
though the strongest argument against it is that the Ms
'looks real', which would have been the purpose of the fake.

> As for the theory of the VMs being a copy, I still haven't
> seen any concrete evidence, for or against.

There are some arguments in favour of its originality, which
is not the same, but closely related. The question becomes:
- is the VMs a copy or an original
- if a copy, was the orginal something we could now read
  or also in Voynich script.
The last option I think is not too interesting, though.

> One weakness of the a priori argument is that it assumes
> the VMs was just as likely to be copied as any other
> contemporary book.
In the absence of any information to the contrary....
Another weakness which is difficult to quantify is that
it assumes that the probability of such a book being lost
in the intervening time is the same as any other book.

> One may object that the strange alphabet and unknown
> language would increase the cost of copying it

Not to mention: of printing it. The probability of books
being handwritten decreases after the proposed date for
the VMs, but this probability cannot be used in estimating
the VMs age.

Anyway, for me it's back to the more serious stuff :-)

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 13 21:47:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:33:56 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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We may never know for certain whether the Voynich is a copy or an original,
as the errors in the text can be argued either way, even after the
manuscript is solved.  This is really too bad because both sides have such
good arguments that I would like to see one or the other prevail.

There are still some good arguments for the "original" side that haven't
been made however.  Virtually no original manuscripts exist from the 1st
century, and very few from centuries up until the 12th century.  Once the
population of the Western World stabilized enough under Roman Catholocism, a
love of learning began to take hold and books became more valuable to the
growing number of literates.  It is reported that there were actually some
original Roger Bacon's in Dee's library, books over 200 years old in the
hands of less than royalty.  The desire - and therefore the price - of
original manuscripts grew to the point that it was prudent even for the less
learned to invest in books.

When discussing 15th and 16th century manuscripts, it follows pretty much
Rene's view of your formula, but for reasons beyond statistics.  By this
time the most noteworthy manuscripts were in print, and the value of
original and non-published manuscripts rose dramatically.  Original Esoteric
manuscripts obviously demanded that great sums be exchanged for the honor of
ownership.  The Voynich wasn't passed off on Rudolph for 600 dukats as a
copy, for sure.  It must have shown sufficient signs of age (or wear) even
by then to have been accepted as an original manuscript.

There is yet another factor not mathematically calculated that greatly
increases its chance of being an original manuscript - the fact that it was
buried.  Many manuscript collections are no longer extant because of fire or
looting (as in the case of the Library of Alexandria, or even Dee's
library).  Buried treasures on the other hand are protected from all human
calamity.  While they are buried they are also copy protected in a sense,
are they not?  This book dropped out of history for almost 300 years, which
takes a major chunk of time out of any calculation someone might do to
determine its copy rate.  Even at the earlier dating, this manuscript was
out of circulation almost 75% of its lifetime.  The question is, how much of
its remaining 25% is lost to copy efforts by being out of circulation in
some private library, presuming it ever left the author's side before
his/her death?

Dee's Angelic works come from only slightly later in the time period we are
following, and yet his work survived to be published only because it was
hidden from looters and the flame - and later buried to hide it from the
world.  Had he not taken this precaution, his work would have never survived
human suffering and turmoil.  I haven't the sources to check offhand, but I
would be interested to see how many of the books that Wilfred M. Voynich
discovered in the Mondragone cache were actually original manuscripts.  I
would also be fascinated to see what company the Voynich kept - if only to
imagine the conversations in the dark and damp that must have taken place.

My Vote - ORIGINAL


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 14 08:14:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:25:41 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis
To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Cc: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Just one last observation, and I will leave the argument to those who can
argue in 1/p increments.  Where I come from a 1/p exercise on a cold snowy
winter day is an artistic exercise in "hand" writing.  I have found through
great discipline and learning that this exercise can be much more rewarding
in the 5/p to 6/p range.  Snow is wonderful, just don't cook with it.  God I
love winter.

>... In any case, the objection above can be counterd by observing that
>there were quite a few people, such as Dr. Dee and Rudolph II, who
>definitely had the motivation and resources to order a copy of the
>VMs, in spite of (or even because of) its unintelligibility.

I find this Argument to be unintelligible.  Are you saying that Dee or
Rudolph II would rather have consulted a copy when they owned the original?
I make a tape of an old vinyl to keep from wearing out something I cannot
replace, yet there is nothing quite like the quality of the vinyl.  If I
thought it held special or "backmasking" information I certainly would not
copy it when I held the original.  I'd play back the original until the acid
wore off.  (Isn't Jagger about as old as this book? - Yet another
possibility left unexplored.)

All indications in my studies are that Dee knew of the Voynich content
before he sold it, so if he copied it, why would he have made yet another
encrypted copy?  He would have copied it into it's intended form.  Rudolph
apparently passed the book on to someone who was considered an expert
herbalist.  This testifies to Rudolph's impression of what the book
contained.  The inventor of Aqua Vita might provide something profitable to
Rudolph if he gained any sense of the manuscript, and his fame and monetary
status would have given him some special favor to ask for the book.  "Follow
the Money" - it's an American tradition.

History says that if the book were sold to Rudolph by Dee, there might have
been circumstances that allowed the book to become a vehicle for payment
that would pass exchequer scrutiny, primarily because those services and a
large outlay to Dee by any other means would have been questionable in the
political circumstance.  If the book was used for this purpose, it could not
have held any significant place in Dee's intellectual heirarchy.  Deacon
gets a lot of flack for assumptions he makes about the nature of Dee's
works, but he did pin the political situation to to the mat.

(Sidenote:  I know the exact date that Dee first viewed a manuscript that
may well be the Voynich, but his acquisition of this manuscript would not
occur until almost 20 years afterward.  If this is the Voynich manuscript,
he knew well who wrote it and what it contained - he bought it from the
author.

We have an extensive dialogue with Dee via his own writings and diaries, and
there is no mention of a copy of the Voynich.  There is no book that fits
the description that stands high in his mind as a valuable or copieable
work, even though he finds time to copy Trithemius.  Dee had knowledge of
the Voynich, this is certain, but he also had understanding - he had no need
to copy.

Rudolph II is another story, but most probably the telling story.  Rudolph
pays a fortune to an English queen's agent for a book, and then gives the
book to who?  AN HERBALIST!  What, you didn't get that?  He gave it to an
HERBALIST!!!  With Tyco Brahe and everyone else around who could have been
of help, he did what?  He gave the Voynich to an HERBALIST!   The best
scientific minds in the known world and he gives it to an HERBALIST!  The
greatest alchemists in the world and he gives it to an HERBALIST!  The
world's most renouned religious experts and he gives this book to an
HERBALIST!  Of course, given the p/1 factor, this is probably an
inconsequential observation, factored out by the (p)rmalek=(p)butthead/0
equation.  (That's rmalek=butthead/0 for the exomaths.)

I try time and again to remind the group of what we should consider as known
facts, and sometimes it seems to me that I am doing this only to further my
own vision of the work at hand.  You know what?  It is my vision of the work
at hand.... it is my vision, your vision, and everyone else's vision that is
flawed when we remove our eyes from the facts of this case.  The facts here
are that Dee probably used the Voynich sale to cover payment for activities
unpopular or illegal within Rudolph's realm.  The fact is that Rudolph did
not consider it an alchemical work - only an herbal, and dealt with it as
such.  They are both the most relative critics we have of the manuscript,
and their comments/actions should be paid special attention.

Copies made by Dee or Rudolph II?  Extremely unlikely.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 14 04:41:07 1997
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  Stolfi kindly provided the statistics for the Herbal-A
  and Herbal-B section, splitting up the words into
  prefix-stem-suffix using his definition of soft/hard
  Voynich characters.

  If shows nicely both the commonalities and the differences
  between the two 'languages'. One commonality, which
  he also mentioned, was the fraction of soft words:
  23.6% for Herbal-A and 24.5% for Herbal-B
  Furthermore the list of prefixes was very similar.

  This must mean something!

  Then:

> Another possibility is that the two scribes were translating
> from another language, and each chose a different "grammatical
> viewpoint" (active/passive, imperative/indefinite/subjunctive,
> etc.). [...] The concept works even better for Romance
> languages, where different tenses and persons require
> different verb endings:

An excellent point, and some good examples snipped. The
only problem I see here is that these are verbs. And verbs
only make up a relatively small fraction of the text.
(I'll write them in caps in the remainder of this post
to SHOW the point).
Especially if verbs ARE CONJUGATED, the individual words
WILL not BE in the top-frequency list. (Here I AM just
THINKING about the 'normal' European languages which ARE
top candidates for the VMs plain text).
The peculiar differences between a and b AFFECT words
from the lowest to the highest frequencies.

Then when I SAID:

    > > One of the things I WANT to DO (some day) IS to DISPLAY
    > > the voynich text of one page .. with colour-CODING.
    > > Then STARE at the result until the solution IS FOUND:-)

    I really MEANT colour :-)
    If there IS some hidden scheme in:

  > lu3 xun4 shi4 zhong1 guo2 jin4 dai4 shi3 shang4 zui4 you3 ying3
  etc. it WILL COME out more easily. Yes, I NOTED the smiley 8-)

  (That should do for the caps).

  My optimism is probably not justified, but we do know that
  the first and last words in each line have different statistics
  and Jim Reeds even saw a small feature in the second word
  of each line. If this relates to the division of words into
  soft (S), mixed-unprefixed (MU), mixed+prefixed (MP),
  anomalous-unprefixed (AU) and anomalous+prefixed (AP)
  then it should show up clearly enough. (With anomalous I
  mean that the stem or root also contains soft letters.)

  Finally, whereas Friedman had no hard evidence for his
  'artificial language' theory, the point made by Stolfi
  is also perfectly in line with this theory.

  Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 14 09:44:09 1997
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Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis
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Oh well, one more post on this subject won't hurt.

>> there were quite a few people, such as Dr. Dee and Rudolph II,
>> who definitely had the motivation and resources to order a
>> copy of the VMs, in spite of (or even because of) its
>> unintelligibility.

> Are you saying that Dee or Rudolph II would rather have
> consulted a copy when they owned the original?

I understood this to mean that we have got D's or R's copy,
the original *not* belonging to them, and now also being
lost. I think this is tied in with the ignorant scribe
theory. This assumes that our Ms is a bad copy.
Note that Dee may not have had all the resources to do this
though. He had to go through some effort just to obtain
a copy of the Steganographia, a Ms he would (presumably) have
valued significantly over the VMs.

Rayman's comment that the VMs is never mentioned in Dee's
correspondence is (IMHO) important, but this has already been
speculated on enough in the past.
Furthermore, Wilfrid Voynich mentions he has investigated
hundreds of candidate sellers of the VMs to Rudolph. Did he
pick Dee because of the connection with R.Bacon? Now that
we don't believe Bacon to be the writer, is Dee still the
most likely one of those hundreds?

> Rudolph pays a fortune ... and then gives the book to ...
> AN HERBALIST!

Even that we do not know for sure. Who says it wasn't
Tepenecz who had the VMs first and then sold it to
Rudolph? This could have been between 1608 and 1612...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 14 13:11:11 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: VMS:top-down analysis
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One more post on the original vs. copy theme:

I seems plausible to me that the VM is an encrypted copy by two scribes of
a clear original. According to this theory, differences between the A- and
B-hands are the results of two different people applying a
(non-deterministic) encryption algorithm to the text.

The fact that any particular leaf is all A-hand or all B-hand and that
the leaves alternate at some points suggests two scribes working from
a stack of cleartext pages, grabbing the next available page when they
finish encrypting the one they are working on.

Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 14 16:35:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:40:02 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> > As for the theory of the VMs being a copy, I still haven't
> > seen any concrete evidence, for or against.
>
> There are some arguments in favour of its originality, which
> is not the same, but closely related. The question becomes:
> - is the VMs a copy or an original
> - if a copy, was the orginal something we could now read
>   or also in Voynich script.
> The last option I think is not too interesting, though.
>
> > One weakness of the a priori argument is that it assumes
> > the VMs was just as likely to be copied as any other
> > contemporary book.
> In the absence of any information to the contrary....
> Another weakness which is difficult to quantify is that
> it assumes that the probability of such a book being lost
> in the intervening time is the same as any other book.
>
> > One may object that the strange alphabet and unknown
> > language would increase the cost of copying it
>
> Not to mention: of printing it. The probability of books
> being handwritten decreases after the proposed date for
> the VMs, but this probability cannot be used in estimating
> the VMs age.

 What does seem probably is that, for at least some significant length of
time, possibly from 1650 thru 1910 the manuscript was sitting in an Italien
Monastry. A place full of monks. Monks who like to copy books. Probably
even strange ones with weird pictures, especially when they were becmoning
a bit tatty or got damaged.

We're reasonable certain that around 1600 there was a copy of it in
circulation. We also have a copy that first appeared around 1910. Are they
the same or is ours a copy of the 1600 document?

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 14 16:41:10 1997
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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:48:12 +0000
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rmalek wrote:

> Rudolph II is another story, but most probably the telling story.  Rudolph
> pays a fortune to an English queen's agent for a book, and then gives the
> book to who?  AN HERBALIST!  What, you didn't get that?  He gave it to an
> HERBALIST!!!  With Tyco Brahe and everyone else around who could have been
> of help, he did what?  He gave the Voynich to an HERBALIST!   The best
> scientific minds in the known world and he gives it to an HERBALIST!  The
> greatest alchemists in the world and he gives it to an HERBALIST!  The
> world's most renouned religious experts and he gives this book to an
> HERBALIST!  Of course, given the p/1 factor, this is probably an
> inconsequential observation, factored out by the (p)rmalek=(p)butthead/0
> equation.  (That's rmalek=butthead/0 for the exomaths.)

Ummm. An interesting assumption. An alternative is that he had lots of copies
made and gave one to everyone.  One copy that, at some point, acquired the
herbalists signature, happens to be the only one that survived. Oh, and ink
bleeds. It's possible that the signature might have been wet ink from else where
or have bled from another document that was in contact with the manuscript for
some time.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 15 17:23:07 1997
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Page f77v has several pictures of "nymphs" in "bathtubs" connected by 
"tubes".

>From their position, it seems that these four labels are associated with
"nymphs":

  okain.akol
  olkchdal
  orchedal
  sororal
  
while these two are associated with the "tubes" in the top figure:

  otol.shedy
  otolor

So here is The Dictionary of Voynichese, Part I:


  -al.  1. A common ending for nymph names. Occasionally written -ol.
  
  -ol.  See -al.

  -or, a. 1. Right; as in /otolor/, right vessel.

  otol, n. 1. Duct, tube, vessel. 
  
  shedy, a.  1. Left.

  
Parts II and following are left to the reader as an exercise. 8-)

--stolfi

PS. OK, those are fairly long shots.  But we must begin somewhere...

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 16 00:02:08 1997
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    > [Rene:] Here it begins to matter what the value of 'p' is. Have
    > we any idea? How certain are we that it is less than 0.5?

    > Yes, the modern fake theory must be considered unlikely, even
    > though the strongest argument against it is that the Ms
    > 'looks real', which would have been the purpose of the fake.

My impression is that it would be quite difficult to fake a book of
that size well enough to fool all the experts who have examined it.

Also, if it is a fraud, it seems a rather stupid one.  I can believe
that someone would take the time to fake Hitler's diaries or the Vinland
map---but the VMs?  A crook with an ounce of brains would surely
have "spiked" the book with clear links to important historical
figures (e.g. Roger Bacon) or events (e.g.  the discovery of America).
That simple trick would have made the book much more valuable and easy
to sell.

    > The question becomes: Is the VMs a copy or an original. If a
    > copy, was the orginal something we could now read or also in
    > Voynich script.  The last option I think is not too interesting,
    > though.

Assuming the VMs is a copy (which of course is only a possibility), 
I actually prefer the last option, specifically the ignorant scribe
theory.  

I think the question is interesting (relevant)
because our tolerance for exceptions, and 
the significance of rarely-occurring patterns, 
should be much differenct if the IST is ever true.

    > [Rayman:] We may never know for certain whether the Voynich is a
    > copy or an original, as the errors in the text can be argued
    > either way, even after the manuscript is solved.

Well, it depends on what kind of solution we get.  Absolute certainty
is impossible, of course; but I believe that the text itself, once
"cracked", will make one alternative much more likely than the other.

For instance, an English speaker is much more likely to write
"receive" as "recieve" than as "recevie" or "receiue".  So by
comparing the frequencies of these errors in a text one could tell,
with fairly good confidence, whether the writer knew English or not.

    > [Rayman:] It is reported that there were actually some original
    > Roger Bacon's in Dee's library, books over 200 years old in the
    > hands of less than royalty.
    
Yes, but note that many of Dee's books, including the precious Bacon
originals, have been lost since then.

    > the fact that it was buried
    
Do you mean, literally? I missed this bit.  

I thought we just had no record of its whereabouts between its arrival
at the Vatican and its earliest recorded presence in Villa
Mondragone's library (some years before its "discovery" by Voynich).

    > The Voynich wasn't passed off on Rudolph for 600 dukats as a
    > copy, for sure.  It must have shown sufficient signs of age (or
    > wear) even by then to have been accepted as an original
    > manuscript.

Whether original or copy, the book now at Beinecke was probably
written in the late 1400's or early 1500's, so it was already 100
years old by the time it was sold to Rudolph.  
    
Also, here is what the Beinecke catalog entry for the VMs says
about this point:

  ... The codex belonged to Emperor Rudolph II of Germany (Holy Roman
  Emperor, 1576-1612), who purchased it for 600 gold ducats and
  believed that it was the work of Roger Bacon; see the autograph
  letter of Johannes Marcus Marci (d. 1667, rector of Prague
  University) transcribed under item A below. ...
  
So Rudolph was quite mistaken about the book, in any case. I don't think
we can put much weight on his evaluation. 

    > [Rayman:] History says that if the book were sold to Rudolph by
    > Dee, there might have been circumstances that allowed the book
    > to become a vehicle for payment that would pass exchequer
    > scrutiny, primarily because those services and a large outlay to
    > Dee by any other means would have been questionable in the
    > political circumstance.
    
Good point!  Or perhaps the transaction was merely a gentlemany excuse
for Rudolph to rescue his friend (and representative of Queen
Elizabeth) from a financially delicate situation, without embarassing
him with an outright gift.  As the Beinecke catalog says,

  In addition, Dee stated that he had 630 ducats in October 1586
  
which is the year when he left Prague.  So, if it was not for the book
deal, he would have only 30 ducats in his pocket---which doesn't sound
that much....

    > Are you saying that Dee or Rudolph II would rather have
    > consulted a copy when they owned the original?  I make a tape of
    > an old vinyl to keep from wearing out something I cannot replace
    
...or if the record belongs to another vynil lover who would not 
easily part with it.  

Rudolph certainly could afford buying the original of any book
that he really wanted (just as he bought the VMs from Dee).  
But Dee was not that well off; there must have been many books
that he wanted but could not afford to buy.

    > All indications in my studies are that Dee knew of the Voynich 
    > content before he sold it
    
But there are two indications to the contrary.  First, Marci's letter
to Kircher states that Rudolph believed Bacon to be the author
("authorem vero ipsum putabat esse Rogerium Bacconem Anglum.") If Dee
could read the book, it seems unlikely that he would have lied to
Rudolph, or allowed him to entertain the idea.

Also, the Beinecke catalog says, about Dee:

  ... his son Arthur ... noted that Dee, while in Bohemia, owned "a
  booke...containing nothing butt Hieroglyphicks, which booke his father
  bestowed much time upon: but I could not heare that hee could make it
  out."

Of course, the "Hieroglyphicks book" may not have been the VMs.

    > Rudolph pays a fortune to an English queen's agent for a book,
    > and then gives the book to who?  AN HERBALIST!  What, you didn't
    > get that?  He gave it to an HERBALIST!!!  With Tyco Brahe and
    > everyone else around who could have been of help, he did what?
    > He gave the Voynich to an HERBALIST!  The best scientific minds
    > in the known world and he gives it to an HERBALIST!  The
    > greatest alchemists in the world and he gives it to an
    > HERBALIST!  The world's most renouned religious experts and he
    > gives this book to an HERBALIST!
    
I don't see what is so absurd about it.  The information we have
suggests that Dee and Rudolph thought the VMs was Bacon's, and, as you
point out yourself, there may have been other explanations for the
steep price.  As for why Rudolph (years later?) gave the book to de
Tepecnez: he very likely showed book to the "best scientific minds"
around, and they told him more or less what we can tell now: "We can't
make heads or tails of it, but its is certainly not Roger Bacon's, and
from the drawings it seems to be mostly about herbal remedies".
So what better use could he have made of the book, than give it
as a present to an herbalist?

    > I try time and again to remind the group of what we should
    > consider as known facts, and sometimes it seems to me that I am
    > doing this only to further my own vision of the work at hand.
    > You know what?  It is my vision of the work at hand.... it is my
    > vision, your vision, and everyone else's vision that is flawed
    > when we remove our eyes from the facts of this case.
    > The facts here are that Dee probably used the Voynich sale to
    > cover payment for activities unpopular or illegal within
    > Rudolph's realm.  The fact is that Rudolph did not consider it
    > an alchemical work---only an herbal, and dealt with it as such.

Please note that these are not facts but interpretations. 

All I have seen so far is just a bunch of pixels on my computer
screen.  I candidly believe there are real folks on the other side of
this mailing list.  I trust that some fellows may hold prints from
Beinecke, and a few have seen and touched The Thing itself.  Ok, let's
be generous and call those sensations "facts".  

There are still infinitely many theories that fit those facts. 
Each of us will have a different opinion as to which theories are
possible and which are unlikely, based on his own beliefs,
prejudices, and tastes (it is always easier to believe in what we
*want* to be true).  

You still need a zillion assumptions and likelyhood judgements to get
from the "facts" to the statements above.  The assumptions may seem
obvious to you; be sensible enough to see that others will 

Consider, for starters,
that Marci's letter to Kircher may be a fake, or may have got attached
to the wrong book.  Marci may have lied, or may have been mistaken, or
may have been misunderstood, about any or all of the "facts" and names
he gives---Tepenecz getting the book from Rudolph, the latter's belief
in Baconian origin, the 600 ducat price, or even Marci's own inability
to read it.  In fact, the VMs may have been an elaborate prank played
on Kircher by Marci.

Now think: that letter is the *only* evidence connecting 
the VMs to Rudolph.  In fact, it is the *only* evidence
about the history of the VMs prior to 1920.

Moreover, the *only* direct connection between John Dee and the VMs is
the handwriting of the page numbers.  But even if the numbers are from
Dee's hand, it does not follow that he ever owned the book. He may
have found it in Rudolph's library, or he may have been one of the
"best scientific minds" that examined the VMs at Rudolph's request.
Perhaps Dee did sell Rudolph a Bacon original, for 600 ducats, and
Rudolph years later decided to give that book to Tepenecz---but picked
the wrong tome from the shelf.

Personally, I am willing to trust the official version of history:
that Marci's word and memory are reliable, and that the VMs was owned
by Dee then sold to Rudolph.  I also think it is quite possible (but
not certain) that the VMs is a copy, made by Dee or some prior owner,
of a similar original.  I don't think that Dee, or any European after
him, could read the VMs. I think the original was written by an
European.  I think it is very likely to be plain text in some natural
language, probably not European, perhaps even Chinese.

But I admit these are still only theories; I don't get terribly upset
if others do not believe in them. 

Well enough drivel for one day.  Time to go back to the numbers...

"ego judicium meum hic suspendo"

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 16 11:02:10 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: VMs a copy ?
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:06:21 -0000
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>From Denis Mardle

I am not going to add to the copy v original
debate but I would restate the request we 
ought to make to the Yale owners that a proper
scientific study be carried out.  With modern
methods this should be possible by non-destructive
means. One could even request dating by analysis
of a small fragment from the damaged top right
corner of f112, avoided, as I wrote earlier, by the
author/scribe.

 I intend to give a fuller version of my introduction
earlier in the year for new Group members.  I hope to
post it this week.

Regards  Denis
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 16 11:02:10 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Syllables, words and labels
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:05:34 -0000
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 From Denis Mardle

 Before everyone goes overboard on the VMs words as
syllables theory I would like to point out some snags
and alternatives, especially where 'labels' are
concerned.
 Rene Zandbergen's "Currier A and B : two different
languages?" of 11 Jan 1997 ( from EVMT site ) has
statistics for various sections that do suggest that
Herbal-A has many short words which suggest syllables
but the high counts ( in order ) for Bio-B are
ZC89, SC89, 4OFAM, OE, 4OFC89 and 4OFCC89 some of
which seem long for syllables especially as AM is
really AIID.  
 There are also longer words in running text that seem
to be rare in the rest of the VMs ( Long labels are the
same, ie rare also ).  Are these 3 or 4 syllable words ?
If so then we should be able to break them down into
syllables.
 BUT, what about labels ?  We know they have different
statistics, especially the almost total absence of '4'
at the beginning of 'words', and surely most of the labels
are words, not syllables.  Labels can have gaps, for
instance Aries1 04 is OPCOCC9.OPAE.OFCAEAR but Aries2 02
is one long word OPOEOARAJ.  Another Zodiac example -
Cancer 24 is OBOIIIOOID.AEAEAC2  also Cancer 30 is
9FOEAIROE 
 There are other possibilities.  If the 'words' are
consonants only one would get shorter 'words' than
normal.  I would still like to see the entropy test
tried on Latin etc. texts with vowels ommitted ( and
the alphabet size reduced )
 We can also have the 'one-way cipher' method as used
by Brumbaugh, ie we have a 9 column, 3 or 4 row matrix
with the alphabet or syllables ( eg -us in Latin )
inside and VM symbols across the top. It is easy to
encipher, but deciphering gives different plain
alternatives.   The only clue that this MAY be used
( or is it a red-herring ? ) is the near cyclic
vertical 'key' ( 26 long - one for each row of text
but probably representing a straight or hatted alphabet )
where the matrix is clearly 9 wide and four deep on
folio f49v. The symbol 'backwards C' may represent
alphabet/syllabes that are rare or even 'blank ceels'

 Roman numerals have been suggested to explain III or
CCC and their related strings.   I would like to add a
variant to this.  In old Greek inscriptions either
symbols similar to the roman ones were used OR numbers
1 to 9 were the first 9 letters of the alphabet, 10,20
to 90 were the next nine letters and 100,200 to 900
were the next nine.  This forces an initial/medial/final
arrangement of numbers less than 1000 ( so 444 would be
3 different letters ).  If used with the 1,5,10,50,100
etc system as a 'mixed' code then we might have an
explanation for 'words'.  Note that numbers greater than
1000 would have to put the Roman style at the beginning
but this could be rare.  I'll study this idea further.

  Any other ideas ?         Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 17 04:35:08 1997
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Just a few points related to this weekend's offerrings:
About the A vs  B language and the two hands: especially
with the hands there is not such a clear-cut distinction.
Some of the rare hands are very hard to see (3,4,5, X, Y)
and within hand 1 there is a great variety in size and
spacing of the text. Hand 2 is generally slanted and
cramped, but not always! Often it is small but
neat enough. Some pages also show an internal variation,
e.g. as if the first paragraph were done one evening, and then
work stopped and was resumed the next day. Currier
argues for five to eight people!

Stolfi wrote:

> My impression is that it would be quite difficult to fake
> a book of that size well enough to fool all the experts who
> have examined it.

Probably. But we don't know which experts have examiend it and how
closely.  The description in D'Imperio about the colours used
would be in favour of a medieval origin though.

> Also, if it is a fraud, it seems a rather stupid one.  I can
> believe that someone would take the time to fake Hitler's diaries
> or the Vinland map---but the VMs?

A difficult argument.
In the same vein, if it were intended to trick Rudolph, it
should have contained mandrakes, mandrakes and more mandrakes.
But this is a very weak argument indeed.

As for the ignorant scribe theory: why I don't like the
option that the ignorant scribe copied something
from a Ms also in Voynichese: it has been stated by many
that the handwriting of the  VMs shows familiarity with
the script. It was written as text, not drawn as pictures,
in the way I would draw Voynichese.
The writer/scribe would have invented this script himself
and practiced it. Had the original been in Voynichese,
he would have been able to read it better. The original
may have been oddly abbreviated or scribbled <insert any
language>. If the original were Voynichese, how different
would it be from what we have now? Would we have been
able to decipher it more easily?

> Or perhaps the transaction was merely a gentlemany excuse
> for Rudolph to rescue his friend

Doesn't sound like Rudolph to me :-) It would be much more
likely that Rudolph were allowed to buy the book just to
be soothed, D+K not having been able to produce the
formula for gold.  ("Listen Ed, we've got to produce
something or we're dead tomorrow"). Note that Dee came
to Prague for patronage (would money be his prime concern?).
He was banished from R's court for the first few years
but managed to reconcile with him. I doubt these were
'friends'.

Note also, that we can't be certain the VMs was in or
near Rome at all in the period from 1660 to 1890. It
may well have been in Flanders all the time (not that it
matters really). A study of the binding might tell...
We can be reasonably certain it was in
Jesuit hands all the time. And that it wasn't a prank
played by Marci on Kircher. Marci wanted to become a
Jesuit and Kircher was a famous one...
Finally, the Marci letter does not mention Dee, so Dee's
link with the VMs is a very uncertain one.

No, really finally, I think we all agree with Denis (welcome
back) that a study of the VMs 'hardware' would help a lot
in narrowing down a few things.

Cheers, Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 17 09:38:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:34:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Dictionary of Voynichese, Part I
In-Reply-To: <199711152215.UAA00547@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> 
> So here is The Dictionary of Voynichese, Part I:
> 
> 
>   -al.  1. A common ending for nymph names. Occasionally written -ol.
>   
>   -ol.  See -al.
> 

Taken by itself, this *could* suggest that (if the nymphs were named the
way angels often are) that the endings were suffixes of the "iah" (YH) or
"el" (AL) variety.  This could be true even if the langauge of the VMS is
not Hebrew, since names or naming conventions could easily be borrowed.


R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 17 09:47:09 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:38:26 -0500
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        "Re: VMs:top-down analysis" (Nov 17,  8:11)
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On Nov 17,  8:11, Dennis wrote:

> Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> > 
> > Now think: [Marci's] letter is the *only* evidence connecting
> > the VMs to Rudolph.  In fact, it is the *only* evidence
> > about the history of the VMs prior to 1920.
> 
> 	I don't think it's the only evidence about the VMs prior to 1920.  I
> remember reading somewhere that Kircher corresponded with someone about
> the VMs before he (Kircher) acquired it, and even had samples of Voynich
> script in his letters.

"Somewhere" = in Marci's letter.  There is no other evidence linking the
VMS with Kircher.  (But there is the dangling question: what did Ruysscheart 
have in mind when he talked about the VMS with H.P.Kraus?)

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 17 10:56:14 1997
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Jim Reeds wrote:

> There is no other evidence [than the Marci letter] linking
> the VMS with Kircher.

And, similar to the case with Dee, we might have expected
or at least hoped for some evidence or even just a sign
of it. In Kircher's case: it did not go into his museum,
which was built around his private library, and it does
not seem to appear in its catalogue.

So perhaps he never got it. Or he sold it without spending
too much time on it (he was always collecting money for
various building and restoration activities, and he was
very good at it too).

> what did Ruysscheart have in mind when he talked about
> the VMS with H.P.Kraus?

Could he have met Beckx? Could he have seen it in the
Collegio Romano prior to Voynich's 'removal' of it?
He would have been *very* young indeed. As Jim himself
pointed out, the most likely possibility is that he knew
of it from a catalogue. Perhaps it was during the making
of this catalogue that the VMs was (re)discovered, or else
a catalogue of the books in the 'chest' already existed.
The possibility must be considered that Voynich bought the
books without complete and official approval from 'all the
way at the top' :-) and that this and other books which he
bought remained listed in the catalogue of items transferred
from the Coll.Rom. to the Vatican.

Finding the answer to this should at least help to completely
reject my 'Bolshewik plot' theory (unless, of course, the VMs
entry is scribbled in afterwards, in a different hand...)

Unfortunately, there are bigger questions to which we also
lack an answer.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 17 09:14:09 1997
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
> Now think: [Marci's] letter is the *only* evidence connecting
> the VMs to Rudolph.  In fact, it is the *only* evidence
> about the history of the VMs prior to 1920.

	I don't think it's the only evidence about the VMs prior to 1920.  I
remember reading somewhere that Kircher corresponded with someone about
the VMs before he (Kircher) acquired it, and even had samples of Voynich
script in his letters.  Could someone clarify this?

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 17 15:26:08 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 16 Nov 97 at 2:53, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> I thought we just had no record of its whereabouts between its arrival
> at the Vatican and its earliest recorded presence in Villa
> Mondragone's library (some years before its "discovery" by Voynich).

No there is no record found so far. Reading a book on Kircher, it 
said that he visited the villas at Frascati (owned by wealthy 
people). There was no mention of Mondragone, but it could have been 
that:

the vms was taken by Kircher himself in one of his trips, or
it was moved to Mondragone with a lot of other stuff from Kircher's 
library Kircher's death, or
it was part of Kircher's museum and after K's death, it ended up in 
the Jesuits library and then moved to Mondragone. 

I think Rene  has been searching for the catalogue of Kircher's 
"museum", but without much luck (any comments, Rene?).

>   In addition, Dee stated that he had 630 ducats in October 1586

I think that this fact is very suggestive, but does it prove 
anything? 
   
> But there are two indications to the contrary.  First, Marci's letter
> to Kircher states that Rudolph believed Bacon to be the author
> ("authorem vero ipsum putabat esse Rogerium Bacconem Anglum.") If Dee
> could read the book, it seems unlikely that he would have lied to
> Rudolph, or allowed him to entertain the idea.

Yes, but this is not a very well founded fact. I think that in the 
Tiltman's translation of the letter, Marci says something like "I 
suspend judgement (about Bacon's authorship)" 
Note that this letter was written near 80 years after the vms was 
sold to Rudolph (if Dee's 630 ducats are taken as a proof). So all 
sorts of stories can be mixed up.  Kircher knew of the vms before he 
received it and apparently he also exchanged fragments with the owner 
previous to Marci.

> Also, the Beinecke catalog says, about Dee:
>   ... his son Arthur ... noted that Dee, while in Bohemia, owned "a
>   booke...containing nothing butt Hieroglyphicks, which booke his father
>   bestowed much time upon: but I could not heare that hee could make it
>   out."

This passage also appears in Focault's Pendulum (!)
 
> Of course, the "Hieroglyphicks book" may not have been the VMs.

>     > HERBALIST!  The world's most renouned religious experts and he
>     > gives this book to an HERBALIST!
     
> I don't see what is so absurd about it.  
I can't see anything wrong either. Rudolph may have had the money to 
buy it and he may have tried to convince somebody to read it for 
him. Having a big chunk of plants and roots, I thought it was only 
reasonable to give it to somebody who knows about plants to identify 
them. Voynich himself did that!

> Consider, for starters, that Marci's letter to Kircher may be a fake, 

It could, but for what reason? Are you thinking in a hoax by Voynich?

>or may have got attached to the wrong book. 

a bit unlikely I think, but not impossible.

> Now think: that letter is the *only* evidence connecting 
> the VMs to Rudolph.  In fact, it is the *only* evidence
> about the history of the VMs prior to 1920.

Nope, the Tepenecz signature is the other. The book was at Rudolph 
court even if the letter was in the wrong book. Of course there is no 
proof that Tepenecz signature is not a forgery.
 
> Moreover, the *only* direct connection between John Dee and the VMs is
> the handwriting of the page numbers.

Which (with all my respects to the generator of that theory) is a bit 
difficult to swallow. 
Mark Parry (hi!, are you there Mark?) sent me some time ago some 
photocopies of a document by Dee. The numbers are not even similar. 
What should I believe?
What is the null hypothesis regarding Dee's numerals? The rest of the 
entire writing world in the 1500's vs. Dee? Dee's connection is only 
due to the circumstance of the 630 ducats and the comments of R. 
Missowski to Marci (about 80 years later) about the price paid by 
Rudolph. But then if Dee's diary mentioned only 300 ducats, people 
would be saying "he divided the money with Kelly".
I do not think that Dee's possible ownership should be discarded, but 
treated with caution.

Let's suppose that there was mention of the book which was sold by 
Dee to Rudolph in Dee's diaries. It would not change anything. The 
book is still unreadable. Bacon's authorship would still be 
debatable, and a hoax by Dee & Co. could still be possible.

cheers
Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 17 15:26:10 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:28:54 +0000
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On 14 Nov 97 at 22:40, Mik Clarke wrote:
> We're reasonable certain that around 1600 there was a copy of it in
> circulation.

> We also have a copy that first appeared around 1910. Are they
> the same or is ours a copy of the 1600 document?

I think that this *is* the book.  Isn't it better to think that this 
book was found, that it may be a copy of an original, but also bear 
in mind  that there is no definite evidence supporting an original?

Lack of corrections? There are a few places where there are 
corrections and overwritten characters. These are very few, but it 
could be that the corrections were left without correction, or that 
the corrections are corrected within the same "tecst correction 
text".

cheers

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 18 02:29:10 1997
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:02:01 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Herbals, etal.
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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My point about the manuscript being given to an HERBALIST was simply to
point out that all expert opinion is that the subject matter is primarily
herbal in nature.  It is a western manuscript, full of christian and latin
symbology, but devoid of Greek and Hebrew symbology.  It is also devoid of
any symbology that can be distinctly related to any other known language
grouping outside the western christian tradition that existed during the
time period it is known to have been written in.

Rudolph passing it on to an herbalist was not absurd - considering it to be
anything other than a western herbal - containing western knowledge - that
is absurd.  If it was reported to Rudolph that the manuscript contained
alchemical information, he would have given it to an alchemist, not an
herbalist, etc.

This manuscript is not a copy.  There was never any reason to copy this
book.  It contained no religious material worth copying.  It contained no
alchemical information worth copying.  It did not contain the elixir of life
or magical spells to cure and stop aging.  It had no magical seals or sigils
to entice.  It contained no cabalistic numerology of any type.  Beyond its
enigmatic script it had absolutely nothing to offer the medieval scholar.
Much of its script could have even been interpreted as a latin shorthand by
its viewers.  This told them it was not written in any fantastic or long
lost language.  It has no great artistic nature that jumps out to the
viewer.  The biological and anatomical sections lack any clarity that would
indicate speciality.  There is nothing about the Voynich that says it was
written by a master.

This book is a very dark and dreary book, my friends.  It was written by
someone who was afraid to have his writings ever come to light, clinging
closely to the darkness.  The book spent much of it's life in the dark,
surfacing only for moments in time.  It was never intended to by read - -
but it can and will be read.

There is nothing about the Voynich which indicates a mind attempting to
communicate something important to like minds.  There are no peers or
followers of the Voynich evident in history.  There is not a single Voynich
word written on a single page or margin in any book that would connect any
person to this manuscript in any way.  There are no attempts to clone or
duplicate the script - there is no evidence that the Voynich ever even
existed in any time period, save the letter from Marci and his indication
that it was once the property of Rudolph II and the signature on the first
folio.  Only the existence of the manuscript itself is proof that it exists.

How does one prove that something does not exist?  E.T.?  UFO's?  Santa
Claus?  Christ?  Nervana?  (Nessy does exist!), etc.  The book of Soyga was
supposed to exist, and there were several references to it by many authors.
It's existence had been questioned and even denied by some, but it actually
finally turned up - or at least a copy of it turned up.  Proof positive -
existence.  But how do you prove something does not exist?

There is no collaborating evidence from any other source that there was ever
a Voynich copy made.  All you government types are familiar with the rules
of validating evidence, but no one has provided any collaborating evidence
that would allow a rational mind to consider the Ignorant Scribe Theory.
Without that evidence it is simply an hypothesis, and a bad one at that.
"C" validity is a person ranting wildly about something that he or she has
seen or heard, and this may or may not be plausible.  I assign the IST the
"D" validity because there is no one available to say they even heard or saw
the scribes copying the manuscript.

What I expect as proof of the IST is a single (or better, multiple)
documentation that someone actually looked at and copied some of the Voynich
character set.  A description of the book would do as well.  It just does
not exist.  There is no external proof of a copy, in any manner, shape or
form.  There is every indication from the manuscript itself that it is
indeed original.

The IST was somehow evolved by the different qualities of "hands", which I
always place in quotes because I consider this a very loose description of
the data.  I accept the "hand A" and "hand B" as valid descriptions of major
changes in the text.  I just read a message that mentioned the minor
"hands", and someone's estimation that there were at least eight hands in
the manuscript.  Now we have a problem that requires scientific
investigation before the problem can be fully resolved.

You people have various tools available to you to analyze the Voynich, and
our computer age has given you even more than your predecessors.  Currier
and others talked of "hands" based on statistics of the script, and that was
fine for them.  No one has yet provided a graphic representation of each of
the two general "hands"  and how they differ in written script.  No one has
offered physical evidence that there are up to eight "hands" in the Voynich.
My attempts at computer graphics analysis showed that there was virtually no
difference between any of the thousands of samples I tested.  ONE AUTHOR.
You want to test your SCRIBE theory?  Everybody get out your calligraphic
pens and copy Folio 3v by hand as best you can, then scan it into the group.
We'll compare characters and see who comes closest to the Voynich - but we
will also see that only one person could have written the Voynich.  HAND
means WRITER, and there is arguably only one WRITER of the Voynich.  Yet
another argument for authenticity.  Don't take my word for it, prove it to
yourselves.

But what of the two different qualities that you represent by "hand A" and
"hand B"?  How do I explain that?  Quite simply - they are cipher.  How else
can each "hand" be broken down into even more subtle "hands"?  When the
cipher changes, the "hands" (statistics) change for that page.  I began a
series of messages to describe this deduction, and I will continue it
despite the naysayers.

What you commonly refer to as a "hand" is a statistical variant, and nothing
more.  As I have said many times, without calligraphic proof that there is
more than one author, there is only one hand.  You have STAT-A and STAT-B
variances, and as we discover, you have multiple subvariances within these
two major statistical groups.  If you will look at my message of last week
concerning my methodology and the questions raised over the initial
character count statistics per page in the herbal section  (Re: VMs
Character Set), you will find that this was one of the questions raised by
me and that I was planning to address the problem using my own miserably
poor deductions as clarification.

Anybody who wants to know or prove how many people were involved in the
writing of this manuscript has many thousands of characters, organized in
wonderfully grouped pages, and all they have to do is perform a handwriting
analysis on each of these pages.  No two scribes can duplicate the
characters the same way, and any differences would stand out.  I doubt you
will find any, although we might find out which marginal notes do not belong
to the original?

You have hard physical evidence and a well established science to
investigate if you wish to demonstrate one way or the other that the Voynich
had multiple authors.  You will only prove that my hundreds of hours
examining this subject were not in vain, and that there is only one WRITER
who composed this book.

Once you realize that only one person was involved in its creation, you may
wonder how to explain the statistical "A" and the statistical "B", and all
their subtle variances.  My work can be of use to you, but only after you
have reached this point.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 18 01:56:07 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: repeated labels
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Random observation #100257-A/97:

I have a list of 319 distinct labels from the VMs illustrations.
(The bulk come from Landini's interlinear v1.6, and a dozen or so
from the mailing list archives).  Variant readings expand the list to
390 entries.  

Although Voynichese is fairly repetitive, there are remarkably few 
repetitions among this list.  Here are all I could find (in EVA 
encoding):

  dokor         <f100v.T.1;C>   {pharma}
  dokor         <f101v1.R1.1;C> {pharma}

  otarar        <f100v.T.2;C>   {pharma} 
  otarar        <f101v1.R1.3;C> {pharma}

  odor          <f100v.M.4;C>   {pharma} 
  odor          <f101v1.R2.4;C> {pharma}

  olkor         <f100v.M.2;C>   {pharma} 
  olkor         <f101v1.R2.2;C> {pharma}


  okal          <f67r2.L;Z>     {astro, moon & circles; "sun"?}
  okal          <f72r2.S.12;K>  {zodiac, gemini, stars}{was <f72r2.12A;K>}
  okal          <f72r2.S.14;K>  {zodiac, gemini, stars}{was <f72r2.14A;K>}

  okaly         <f70v2.S1.3;C>  {zodiac, pisces, btw outer stars; K:okala}
  okaly         <f72r2.S.13;K>  {zodiac, gemini, stars}{was <f72r2.13A;K>}
  okaly         <f72r2.S.21;K>  {zodiac, gemini, stars}{was <f72r2.21A;K>}

  okary         <f89v2.m.1;L>   {pharma}
  okary         <f70v2.S1.17;C> {zodiac, pisces, btw outer stars; K:ykary}

  okeey.ary     <f72r1.S.4;K>   {zodiac, taurus dk, stars}{was <f72r1.04A;K>}
  okeey.ary     <f72r2.S.15;K>  {zodiac, gemini, stars}{was <f72r2.15A;K>}

  okshdchas     <f89r2.b.1;K>   {pharma; L:okan-yorain}{was <f89v.45A;K>}
  okshdchas     <f89r2.m2.6;L>  {pharma}


  otaiin.otain  <f72r1.S.13;K>  {zodiac, taurus dk, stars}{was <f72r1.13A;K>}
  otaiin        <f71v.S1.6;K>   {zodiac, taurus lt, btw outer stars}{was <f71v.11A;K>}


  otal.ypsharal <f70v1.S.15;K>  {zodiac, aries dk, btw inner stars}{was <f70v1.15A;K>}
  otal          <f72r2.S.1;K>   {zodiac, gemini, stars}{was <f72r2.01A;K>}


  otalaiin      <f70v1.S.2;K>   {zodiac, aries dk, btw outer stars}{was <f70v1.02A;K>}
  otalaiin      <f71v.S2.3;K>   {zodiac, taurus lt, btw inner stars}{was <f71v.03A;K>}

  otaldy        <f67r1.S.1;C>   {astro, moon & circles, circle sectors}
  otaldy        <f88r.m.1;L>    {pharma, plant; K:otaly}
  otaldy        <f70v2.S1.12;K> {zodiac, pisces, btw outer stars}{was <f70v2.26A;K>}

  otaly         <f88r.m.1;K>    {pharma, plant; L:otaldy}{was <f88r.05A;K>}
  otaly         <f88r.t.6;L>    {pharma, plant}
  otaly         <f70v1.S.10;K>  {zodiac, aries dk, btw inner stars}{was <f70v1.10A;K>}
  otaly         <f70v2.S1.10;K> {zodiac, pisces, btw outer stars}{was <f70v2.24A;K>}

  otear.araydy  <f70v1.S.5;K>   {zodiac, aries dk, btw outer stars}{was <f70v1.05A;K>}
  otear         <f100r.t.3;K>   {pharma}{was <f100r.17A;K>}

  otoram        <f88r.b.2;L>    {pharma, plant; K:otor.am}
  otoram        <f88v.m.1;K>    {pharma; L:otorad}{was <f88v.17A;K>}


The rarity of repetitions is encouraging. Note that some of them
seem to be transcription errors.  Also, there seem to be relatively
few repetitions spanning different sections.

The first four entries of this list are intriguing: { dokor, otarar,
odor, olkor } appear on page f100.v and then again on page f101v1,
in slightly different order.  Could they be transcription errors?

The thrice-repeated label "okal" was identified by Rene as the 
name of the Sun in Voynichese.

I only have label transcriptions for three of the zodiac signs
(pisces, aries, taurus). .

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 18 03:11:07 1997
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Gabriel wrote:

> Reading a book on Kircher, it said that he visited the
> villas at Frascati (owned by wealthy people). There was
> no mention of Mondragone, but it could have been that:
> the vms was taken by Kircher himself in one of his trips,
> or

The difficulty is that the Mondragone was just another Villa
then, owned by the Pope. Only much later did it get into Jesuit
hands and take over the role of the  Collegium Romanum (the main
Jesuit centre of learning). Kircher taught in this college
for a number of years (while this was still in its previous
location, in Rome).
> it was moved to Mondragone with a lot of other stuff from
> Kircher's library Kircher's death, or

This is possible

> it was part of Kircher's museum and after K's death, it
> ended up in the Jesuits library and then moved to Mondragone.
> I think Rene  has been searching for the catalogue of Kircher's
> "museum", but without much luck (any comments, Rene?).

Somewhere (I don't think it was  D'mperio) I read that this
catalogue had been looked at and the VMs wasn't there. I
didn't particularly search for the catalogue but found by
accident that our library has a copy of it. Unfortunately,
they somehow seem to have lost it :-( So, if the Ms was never
in Kircher's museum, what has he done with it?
Again, this is not our biggest problem  :-)

>  > > HERBALIST!  The world's most renouned religious experts and he
>  > > gives this book to an HERBALIST!

> > I don't see what is so absurd about it.
> I can't see anything wrong either.

Perhaps this was Rayman's point. He gave it to a herbalist
because it looked like a herbal. Not an alchemical or
magival work.

> I do not think that Dee's possible ownership should be
> discarded, but treated with caution.

> Let's suppose that there was mention of the book which was
> sold by Dee to Rudolph in Dee's diaries. It would not change
> anything. The book is still unreadable. Bacon's authorship
> would still be debatable, and a hoax by Dee & Co. could still
> be possible.

Very good point.
Dee was first connected with the VMs by W.Voynich, and Voynich
was 'looking for' a method whereby a Baconian Ms could have
gotten into the hands of Rudolph. The evidence is very
circumstantial. The most relevant issue with Dee is the
possibility that he was involved in faking it.
Now that there is more a tendency to think that the Ms
is 15th C, from N.Italy, Dee may not have brought the Ms
to Prague (but he may very well have seen it).

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 18 06:26:07 1997
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Stolfi looked at the labels and found only few duplications.
There are a few though, which he cites. If the labels
are the names of the items they accompany, then they
should perhaps even be more unique, or not. I don't know.
It seems improbable, in any case, that this is just
'running text' written word for word.

The duplications are usually simple words. Note that
some do occur three or four times, and this list is only
about half the labels in the VMs.

> The rarity of repetitions is encouraging. Note that some
> of them seem to be transcription errors.

Even in transcriptions with (hopefully) fewer errors, this
amount of duplication is present.

> Also, there seem to be relatively few repetitions spanning
> different sections.

Especially between the astro material on the one hand
and the pharmaceutical on the other, this is true and I
would also consider that encouraging, I suppose.

> The first four entries of this list are intriguing:
> [ snip  ]  appear on page f100.v and then again on page f101v1,
> in slightly different order.  Could they be transcription
> errors?

Let's be careful and not 'rely' too much on the
presence of transcription errors.
We found that the existing transcriptions are not all that bad.
They had problems, sure, but nothing affecting the statistics
in any major way (the one exception being the consistent
misrepresentation of Currier -AM and -AN in the stars section).

> The thrice-repeated label "okal" was identified by Rene as
> the name of the Sun in Voynichese.

Ahem. Tentatively to say the least :-)
Note that we also know that -al is a typical nymph ending,
so the moon might be the better choice for okal after all :-)

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 18 11:29:11 1997
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Dear all,

> Currier and others talked of "hands" based on statistics
> of the script, and that was fine for them.

This confusion between hands and languages, let's try
to end it. Personally, whenever I mention 'hand'
I mean the handwriting chracteristics. A and B
are not hands but 'languages' (by convention),
with different statistics. The stats for the
different hands have not yet been shown. I'm
thinking of margin sizes, line spacing, slant angles,
baseline angles, what have you. I don't know if these
numbers would be significant but I imagine they
could be.

I am not qualified for challenging Currier's observation
of the two, five or eight different hands, but
I certainly would not have come up with the same
classification if asked to do it.
With his language classification I can find no fault.
There could be a third language: there are pages which
are very low in 'chol' (SOE) and 'shol' (ZOE) and have
not too many words ending in '-dy' (-89) so they lack
the most prominent features of A and B. I'd call this 'O',
but I haven't yet been able to formulate a reliable
'identification algorithm' for it.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 18 12:23:07 1997
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[ Here is another cartload of hist[o|e]rical speculation, sorry.
  I should stick to hard numbers, I know, but can't resist.... ]

    > [Rene:] But we don't know which experts have examiend it and how
    > closely.
    
I was thinking of Panofsky and Toresella.

    > It was written as text, not drawn as pictures, in the way I
    > would draw Voynichese.

You have a point there.  

However, if I tried to copy a text in a foreign alphabet, I think that
after a few pages I would automatically start classifying the letter
shapes (rightly or wrongly) into discrete categories; and then I would
shift from "drawing mode" to "writing mode".  (Here is a conjecture 
we could settle by experiment.)  

By now I am familiar enough with Voynichese to copy it in "writing
mode".  This does not count as a valid experiment, because I learned
the "alphabet" from your tables. But it tells me that the VMs could
easily have been copied, in "writing mode", by someone who could not
understand a iota of it.

I imagine that a medieval copist would have learned even faster than I
did, if the original letters were built up from strokes quite familiar
to him---like those in the Beinecke manuscript.

So the objection seems to be: why don't we see signs of this learning
process in the scribe's handwriting.  Well, perhaps they are there,
and we just haven't paid attention.  Perhaps we are missing quire #0.
Perhaps the sheets have been scrambled before being numbered and
bound, so that the first "drawn, not written" pages are now in the the
"pharma" section.  Perhaps the client was unhappy with those first
pages, and had them redone.  Perhaps the copist made a practice run of
a few pages, on scrap paper. Perhaps the client provided the alphabet
(either the true one, or his best guess).  Or...

    > [Rayman:] This manuscript is not a copy. ... All you government
    > types are familiar with the rules of validating evidence,
    > but no one has provided any collaborating evidence that would
    > allow a rational mind to consider the Ignorant Scribe Theory.
    > Without that evidence it is simply an hypothesis, and a bad one
    > at that. ... I assign the IST the "D" validity ...
    
Rayman, I don't understand why you are so upset by the idea that the
VMs may be a copy.  Yes, it *is* just an hypothesis, like anything
that has been said on this subject.  You think it is unlikely.  
I think it is likely enough to deserve discussion.  That is normal,
isn't it?  Different, perfectly rational people will have different
views of the world (including the inner world of Dee and his friends),
and hence will assign different probabilities to the same hypothesis.

By exchanging knowledge and arguments we can sometimes change other
people's views. But often the difference is a matter of temperament
and one's life experience, and mere words are unable to bridge the
gap.  I think I can live with this.  Shall we just peacefully "agree
to disagree"?
 
    > ... because there is no one available to say they even heard or
    > saw the scribes copying the manuscript.
    
Well, there is no one available who can attest that Dr. Dee's parents
were ever in bed together.  Shall we then assume that he was
spontaneously created?

We "know" that most people are born from parents who got in bed
together, so it is sensible to assume that Dr. Dee was conceived that
way, even without any direct evidence.  (In fact, we should not
dismiss this hypothesis unless we had pretty solid evidence to the
contrary.)

In the same way, we know that many medieval books were copied, and
most of them (copies and originals) were lost.  At this point, the
fraction that was copied and the fraction that was lost are unknown
parameters, but they surely are not 0%.  (Note that we already lost a
good chunk of the VMs itself!)  My guess---note, *my*, and
*guess*---is that over 90% of the books of that time were lost. So,
*for me*, the fact that only one VMs exists today is no reason to
doubt the existence of other copies in the 16th century. On the
contrary, in *my* view, the mere fact that one VMs survived makes it
likely that once there were a few more like it.
    
Also, note that the IST is a relatively harmless theory, from the
historical point of view.  (In fact, it is annoying mainly because it
is hard to refute.)  That is, for almost any scenario we can imagine,
we can imagine an alternative scenario where the VMs gets copied at
some point, and then the same story carries on with the copy in place
of the original.

Of course, any such copying must have taken place before the pages
were numbered.  If we trust the identification of the numbering as
Dee's hand, then the copy must have been made no later than Dee's stay
in Prague.

In fact, as you say, it seems a bit unlikely that Dee would have asked
a huge price for a book he knew was a only a copy.  Also, the French
month names in the Zodiac, in a different script, suggest that the
Beinecke manuscript had been in other hands before it got to
Dee. (Unless those names were added later by a French scholar in
England, Prague, or Rome; but this thesis seems rather unlikely given
the archaic spelling.)

So the copying, if it happened at all, probably was done before the
VMs got to Dee; and he probably believed it was a Bacon original.
>From that point on, it would not make any difference whether the VMs
was original or copy.

    > There was never any reason to copy this book.  It contained no
    > religious material worth copying.  ...
    
I fully agree. But Marci's letter (for whatever it is worth) says that
Rudolph paid 600 ducats for it, and believed it was a book by Roger
Bacon.  I can't imagine where Rudolph could have gotten that idea,
except from its previous owner.  As you say, there is nothing in the
book itself that would suggest it.

Now, either Rudolph was conned, or the previous owner too thought the
book was a Bacon original and thus very valuable.  In any case,
Marci's letter is evidence that, for some time, the book was *thought
to be* very valuable---and that is enough of motive for copying,
as far as the IST is concerned.

    > [Rene:] If the original were Voynichese, how different would it
    > be from what we have now? Would we have been able to decipher it
    > more easily?

Perhaps.  The only reason to worry about the IST is that it would
provide an explanation for a large number of inconsistencies and
mistakes in the VMs itself---*if* we ever come to need such an
explanation.

An ignorant scribe would make more mistakes than the author, or a
knowledgeable scribe.  It particular, he could have made systematic
errors like omitting or inserting spaces, confusing two similar
letters (say, EVA ligatures (es) and (se)) or splitting a single
variable-shape letter into two distinct letters (which could
explain the parallels between EVA t and k).

Indirectly, our degree of belief in the IST will affect out choice of
strategies. If we think the IST is likely, then we will want to
try first those lines of attack that are more tolerant of scribal
errors.  For instance, since I am not yet sure that t and k are
distinct letters, I often collapse them in my statistical hunting.

    > Finally, the Marci letter does not mention Dee, so Dee's
    > link with the VMs is a very uncertain one.

Well, the letter does tip the scales a bit towards Dee. Why would
Rudolph believe that the author was Roger Bacon, particulary, among
all European scholars of that age?  The previous owner said so,
presumably; but why should he be trusted? The only reason I can think
of is that Rudolph knew that the man had been in England, had brought
the book with him, and was likely to own a Bacon original.

OK, this is not exactly clinching proof, but it does make Dee (and, to
a lesser extent, Kelly) more likely than other non-English candidates.

Best regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 18 17:50:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:57:17 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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rmalek wrote:

> My point about the manuscript being given to an HERBALIST was simply to
> point out that all expert opinion is that the subject matter is primarily
> herbal in nature.  It is a western manuscript, full of christian and latin
> symbology, but devoid of Greek and Hebrew symbology.  It is also devoid of
> any symbology that can be distinctly related to any other known language
> grouping outside the western christian tradition that existed during the
> time period it is known to have been written in.
>
> Rudolph passing it on to an herbalist was not absurd - considering it to be
> anything other than a western herbal - containing western knowledge - that
> is absurd.  If it was reported to Rudolph that the manuscript contained
> alchemical information, he would have given it to an alchemist, not an
> herbalist, etc.

Question. If you are going to hide knowledge. Knowledge you want no one else to
find. Dark, secret magic knowledge. Are you going to go through all the trouble
on encrypting it (a 240 page document - by hand - several months works) and then
stick magical sigals and runes on it that all just scream out 'This is magial!
The secrent of eternal life is hidden here! Great riches await whoever shall
decode this!'? No. You're going to dress it up with mundane (and possibly
distasteful) symbols, inidentifyable illustrations and other boring junk...

> This manuscript is not a copy.  There was never any reason to copy this
> book.  It contained no religious material worth copying.  It contained no
> alchemical information worth copying.  It did not contain the elixir of life
> or magical spells to cure and stop aging.  It had no magical seals or sigils
> to entice.  It contained no cabalistic numerology of any type.  Beyond its
> enigmatic script it had absolutely nothing to offer the medieval scholar.
> Much of its script could have even been interpreted as a latin shorthand by
> its viewers.  This told them it was not written in any fantastic or long
> lost language.  It has no great artistic nature that jumps out to the
> viewer.  The biological and anatomical sections lack any clarity that would
> indicate speciality.  There is nothing about the Voynich that says it was
> written by a master.

Unless you really want to know what someone went to so much trouble to hide.Who
wrote it? Who gave up six months or maybe a yea rof their life to produce it?
What was so important that they had to record it so no-one but the chosen could
read it?
A book of secrets...

> What I expect as proof of the IST is a single (or better, multiple)
> documentation that someone actually looked at and copied some of the Voynich
> character set.  A description of the book would do as well.  It just does
> not exist.  There is no external proof of a copy, in any manner, shape or
> form.  There is every indication from the manuscript itself that it is
> indeed original.

Hmmm. Take the Bible or the Koran. If we discount existent copies, how much
evidence of the sort you are asking for do we have that they existed in 1600? I
think there will not be much - and the bible was the most widely copied book of
all. For a book of which there were, perhaps, only a handful of copies made I
would be extreemly surprised (and suspisious) if there was a reference to its
being copied.

> Once you realize that only one person was involved in its creation, you may
> wonder how to explain the statistical "A" and the statistical "B", and all
> their subtle variances.  My work can be of use to you, but only after you
> have reached this point.

One original author. Yes. But over how many years... The change in hands could
be due to the loss (and reconstruction from memory) of his original cypher
(especially if its a dictionary). Or it could be because he made improvements to
it. We also don't know that the manuscript was written sequentially. If its a
note book of sorts, then all of the sections may have been updated in parallel.
If so, the marked difference in the hand would imply somthing that happened
while it was being copied...

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 19 04:02:08 1997
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About the  IST:

Stolfi wrote:

> the VMs could easily have been copied, in "writing mode",
> by someone who could not understand a iota of it.

Yes.

> I imagine that a medieval copist would have learned even
> faster than I did

Yes.
But if the original was in Voynichese, and it was exactly
the same, then the 'I' in IST does not matter. In fact,
the fact that we have a copy does not matter.
If the original was in Voynichese, how would it have looked?
I doubt that a reasonable amount of (even very consistent)
transcription errors would introduce the strange features
like the grouping of soft/hard letters, the low h2, etc.
If so, it should be fairly easy to invert the process.

If information was lost in the process of copying of
the VMs, to create the copy we now have, I for one
could far more easily imagine that the original was
indeed very hard to read, but in some 'standard'
language. If the script was Voynichese, which language
would it have been?
In fact, if the original was in Voynich script, it *should*
not have been illegible, because this was an invented script.
Who writes illegibly? Someone who has written so much he
becomes sloppy or doesn't care or knows it can be understood
anyway. None of these would apply for the original Ms if
it was in Voynich script.
In our copy, the script has always been called 'clear'.
The only problem about the alphabet is its interpretation.
We clearly see the c- strokes but do not know if the 'ccc' are
one, two or three letters. We see sometimes 'ee', sometimes
'ch' and sometimes something in between. We don't know
if the difference is significant. Changing these, or calling
k/t the same helps virtually nothing in the process of turning
Voynichese into a text with 'normal' stats.

> So the objection seems to be: why don't we see signs of
> this learning process in the scribe's handwriting.
> Well, perhaps they are there, and we just haven't paid
> attention.

Perhaps, yes. I like to think that we may have been looking
in the wrong place. This was also discussed when I was
'upset' by the very first word in the VMs (fachys or VAS92).
This is a very uncharacteristic word. It was suggested that
it could be a feature of a 'code learning process'.

> Perhaps we are missing quire #0.
If the Ms is a fair copy, we are certainly missing all the
drafts.

> Perhaps the sheets have been scrambled before being numbered
> and  bound, so that the first "drawn, not written" pages are
> now in the the "pharma" section.

Some thoughts:
- the foldouts are concentrated near the end. Still, often
  the foldouts contain normal 'panels'. Perhaps they were never
  cut. Perhaps they were made from leftover pieces of
  vellum which could not be prepared for a complete quire.
  Most indications point to the possibility that these were
  done last.
- there is both pictorial and textual evidence that f58 and the
  stars section belong together.

> Of course, any such copying must have taken place before the
> pages were numbered. If we trust the identification of the
> numbering as Dee's hand, then the copy must have been made
> no later than Dee's stay in Prague.

All age interpretations are based on experts looking at the copy.
The script (Toresella) and the drawings (Panofsky) seem to
date from the 15C. This is the age of the copy.
The original (if there was one) may have been carved in rock.

> [Rudolph] believed it was a book by Roger Bacon.  I can't
> imagine where Rudolph could have gotten that idea,
> except from its previous owner.

In the archive is a post explaining that Bacon was held in high
regard at Rudolph's court, and even if Dee did not produce
the VMs, he may have been responsible for the idea that it
could be Bacon's, even indirectly (i.e. if the VMs only
arrived at Rudolph's court after Dee had gone).

> The only reason to worry about the IST is that it would
> provide an explanation for a large number of inconsistencies
> and mistakes in the VMs itself---*if* we ever come to need
> such an explanation.

I'm skeptical, as I explained above. The 'inconsistencies'
would have to be major, so they indicate to me a major translation
going from source to copy.
A Brumbaugh-type translation could do the trick. But this
could very well be a deliberate obfuscation rather than
sloppy (or nearly-impossible) transcription.  Perhaps
that does not matter. Both assumptions should lead to the
same type of 'attack' by us.

Cheers, Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 19 16:41:12 1997
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <199711160453.CAA01149@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> (message from Jorge
	Stolfi on Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:53:29 -0200 (EDT))
Subject: Dee's Hieroglyphick book and seeing the Voynich first hand
Status: OR


> Also, the Beinecke catalog says, about Dee:
> 
>   ... his son Arthur ... noted that Dee, while in Bohemia, owned "a
>   booke...containing nothing butt Hieroglyphicks, which booke his father
>   bestowed much time upon: but I could not heare that hee could make it
>   out."
> 
> Of course, the "Hieroglyphicks book" may not have been the VMs.

It wasn't. It was the Book of St. Dunstan that Kelly claimed to have found.
If there's an archive of the mailing list, look for discussion of this early
on in the context of Dee's book burning.

I was out east on business, took a couple days' vacation, and was permitted to
look at the Voynich (I specifically wanted to look at the large fold-out, and
the images I've seen aren't all that clear, even the Krauss catalog
photo). The parchment looks much greyer than in the color photos I've
seen. Some of the zodiac foldouts are curling/rolling up so that they don't
fold in anymore. I guess I shouldn't be suprised at its fragility given its
age.

Parts of the edge of the large fold out are curled, concealing some marginal
text (which I didn't get around to transcribing before the library closed,
unfortunately -- I only had about 45 minutes with the mss). The characters are
*tiny*. It's a much more puzzling drawing than even a close examination of the
photo in the Kraus catalog reveals. It's suprising how much more you see in
the original. I spent 45 minutes looking at just one folio of the six -- the
one in the upper right corner with the small castle and the T-O map(?). Need I
mention that the labels in the T-O map(?) don't match those from f68v3? I
would have liked to have transcribed more of it, but didn't have time (even
though I write the Voynich script fairly fluently) -- I'd really like to look
at the character statistics of the text in the diagram. It really gave a feel
for how much time Petersen must have spent on his replica.

I'm also kicking myself for not having time to check the associated material
for the letter from Manly to Mrs. V 20 Mar 1920 (also letter to Newbold
roughly same date) in which he claimed that, based on freq count of 8 pages,
it was "a comparatively simple cipher disguised by extensive use of nulls."

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 19 17:50:10 1997
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Message-ID: <34736C20.5D08312B@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:45:55 -0500
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Status: OR

     My monitor blew up a month ago, so I've been without a computer since
then.  160 E-mail on the VMs list! Egad, I've missed a lot.  I've only
glanced over a few of them so far and so much seemed to have been discussed
-- I've got a lot of reading ahead of me.

    Anyway, without the use of a computer for such a long time I had to
resort to spending lots of times with actual paper stuff!  So here's a
little conjecture...

        A is equivalent to 9.

        9 follows 8 at the end of words,  A follows 8 when it is in the
middle of a word (and this particular 'lets call it a vowel' is required).
        9 precedes 8 and gallows (that don't have the S character),  A
precedes gallows with the S character but not 8.
        9 is found as a single character,  A is not.
        9 frequently starts words,  A rarely starts words --  very short
ones when it does.

         Thus 89 and 8AM could be equivalent to say  'ka' and 'kam'

            Well, I did say it was conjecture...

                                                John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 00:23:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:15:14 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMs:top-down analysis
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	<199711160453.CAA01149@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
	<9711172022.AA23726@sun1.bham.ac.uk>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Status: OR


    > [stolfi:] First, Marci's letter to Kircher states that Rudolph
    > believed Bacon to be the author ("authorem vero ipsum putabat
    > esse Rogerium Bacconem Anglum.")
    > 
    > [Gabriel:] Yes, but this is not a very well founded fact. I
    > think that in the Tiltman's translation of the letter, Marci
    > says something like "I suspend judgement (about Bacon's
    > authorship)"

Yes, that is the very next sentence of Marci's letter.  He was merely
reporting Rudolph's belief.  I imagine that Marci himself knew enough
about Bacon's works to dismiss that theory.

    > Note that this letter was written near 80 years after the vms was 
    > sold to Rudolph (if Dee's 630 ducats are taken as a proof). So all 
    > sorts of stories can be mixed up.
    
Quite true.
    
    > [stolfi:] [Marci's letter] may have got attached to the wrong book. 

    > [Gabriel:] a bit unlikely I think, but not impossible.  ... the
    > Tepenecz signature is the other [bit of evidence connecting the
    > VMs to Rudolph].

Oops, you are right. I forgot about that.

    > The book was at Rudolph court even if the letter was in the
    > wrong book. Of course there is no proof that Tepenecz signature
    > is not a forgery.
    
It is confirmed that it is a signature (rather than, say,
an annotation made by a Mondragone librarian)?. 

Here is all that the Beinecke catalog entry says:

  ... Jacobus Horcicky de Tepenecz (d. 1622); inscription
  on f. 1r "Jacobi de Tepenecz" (erased but visible under
  ultra-violet light).
  
I now agree with Dennis: a thorough physical analysis of the 
manuscript is highly desirable.

    > [stolfi:] Moreover, the *only* direct connection between John
    > Dee and the VMs is the handwriting of the page numbers.

    > [Gabriel:] Which (with all my respects to the generator of that
    > theory) is a bit difficult to swallow.  Mark Parry (hi!, are you
    > there Mark?) sent me some time ago some photocopies of a
    > document by Dee. The numbers are not even similar.  What should
    > I believe? What is the null hypothesis regarding Dee's
    > numerals? The rest of the entire writing world in the 1500's
    > vs. Dee? 
    
I too wonder how solid that identification is. 
>From the catalog, again:
    
  It is very likely that Emperor Rudolph acquired the manuscript from
  the English astrologer John Dee (1527-1608) whose foliation remains
  in the upper right corner of each leaf (we thank A. G. Watson for
  confirming this identification through a comparison of the Arabic
  numerals in the Beinecke manuscript with those of John Dee in
  Oxford, Bodleian Library Ashmole 1790, f. 9v, and Ashmole 487). See
  also A. G. Watson and R. J.  Roberts, eds., John Dee's Library
  Catalogue (London, The Bibliographical Society, forthcoming). Dee
  apparently owned the manuscript along with a number of other Roger
  Bacon manuscripts; he was in Prague 1582-86 and was in contact with
  Emperor Rudolph during this period.
    
    > Let's suppose that there was mention of the book which was sold
    > by Dee to Rudolph in Dee's diaries. It would not change
    > anything. The book is still unreadable. Bacon's authorship would
    > still be debatable, and a hoax by Dee & Co. could still be
    > possible.

I thought that the Bacon theory had been thoroughly discredited.

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 00:23:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:15:31 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Status: OR


    > [Rayman:] If By peacefully "agreeing to disagree" you ask that I
    > no longer give cause to wonder about the IST or the MST, I
    > cannot promise anything.  Someone will surely say something that
    > moves against my research into this matter, and I will respond.
    > I consider such response to fall under the heading of
    > "exchanging knowledge and arguments".  It is not my purpose to
    > change your views.  Accepted?
    
Sure!  Your comments are always welcome.

    > [Rene:] I doubt that a reasonable amount of (even very
    > consistent) transcription errors would introduce the strange
    > features like the grouping of soft/hard letters, the low h2,
    > etc.

The soft and hard letters have very different shapes, so I think that
the soft/hard structure is a relatively "robust" feature that would
survive copying by an ignorant scribe.  (A possible exception is the
`ei'/`a' confusion.)

On the other hand, the k/t distinction may be an artifact of "ignorant
copying".  The *shapes* of those letters do seem quite distinct in the
Beinecke manuscript, but I still haven't seen any clear statistical
difference between them. As others have noticed, for every common `t'
word, the corresponding `k' word is also common, and occurs with about
1/4 of the frequency.  

It is hard to explain this strong parallelism if a `t' word means
something different from its `k' version (even if they are just
different flections of the same root).  Natural languages often have
such parallels in the grammar, but they don't show up in the
statistics: the "cokes"/"coke" ratio is usually very different from
the "chips"/"chip" ratio.

One would expect statistical parallelism only if the k/t distinction
had low semantinc value (uppercase/lowercase, metric marker, stress
mark, musical pitch); but even this solution is not very convincing
(contrast the frequency ratio of "John"/"john" with that of "And"/"and", 
for instance).

This feature of Voynichese is problematic even for the "crypto"
theories, as it requires a cypher complex enough to scramble 
the *word* frequencies---while still producing natural-looking,
"clumpy" distributions of word and label occurrences along the text.

The IST could provide a simple explanation for the k/t
parallelism. Namely, in the original VMs the k and t were the same
letter, but the size of the left eye varied all the way down to
nothing (in the same wat that the stroke of handwritten English
"t" may or may not extend to the left of the stem). The scribe
thought the "eyed" and "eyeless" shapes were (or might be) different
letters, and was careful to draw them very distinctly in the copy.  (I
trust that you and Gabriel have faced the same dilemma many times
while preparing your new transcription.)

There are other pairs of letters whose statistics suggest a 
significant number of misreadings (s for r, sh for ch, etc.).
I will try to post some numbers about that.

    > All age interpretations are based on experts looking at the copy.
    > The script (Toresella) and the drawings (Panofsky) seem to
    > date from the 15C. This is the age of the copy.

Perhaps. But we must consider that a 16th century scribe, asked to copy
a 15th century book, may well have tried to imitate its 15th century 
handwriting, too.

    > [stolfi:] The thrice-repeated label "okal" was identified by Rene as
    > the name of the Sun in Voynichese.

    > [Rene:] Ahem. Tentatively to say the least :-)

But still, that's one of the most believeable Voynich translations
that have been proposed so far...

Rene and Robert, could you confirm whether this is a correct summary
of your previous messages about f67r2?  I plan to redo the label
occurrence maps, and would like to include these...

  # text in circles
  # From a message by R. Zandberger (code Z), entered by J. Stolfi
  # Conjectured by Rene and R. Firth to be the seven Ptolemaic planets
  # Counterclockwise
  <f67r2.C.1;Z>      okal={sun?}
  <f67r2.C.2;Z>      dolchsody={mars?}
  <f67r2.C.3;Z>      yfain={jupiter?}
  <f67r2.C.4;Z>      ytoaiin={saturn?}
  <f67r2.C.5;Z>      ofar,oeoldain={luna?}
  <f67r2.C.6;Z>      opcholdy={mercury?}
  <f67r2.C.7;Z>      okain.am={venus?}

Also, in "ofar,oeoldain", is the comma a possible word space,
or something else? 

    > Note that we also know that -al is a typical nymph ending,
    > so the moon might be the better choice for okal after all :-)

Wait, why do you assume that moon=fem, sun=masc in Voynichese?

I recall some language or culture where the genders of those
two words were just the opposite.  (German, perhaps?, No,
I think it was something more exotic...)

All the best,

--stolfi

"I saw God, and She is black." (A. Clarke)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 03:26:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:21:41 +0200
Subject: Re: Dee's Hieroglyphick book and seeing the Voynich first hand
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To Karl Kluge:

you wrote:

> I was out east on business, took a couple days' vacation, and
> was permitted to look at the Voynich ...

This sounds as if it was recently. So, while your memory is still
fresh, may I ask a few things which were discussed earlier in the list:

- Did you see the colours of the zodiac illustrations?
  E.g. if the tauri were grey/white and brownish respectively.
- What can you say about the colours used in the 6-ring
  foldout?
- Can you confirm Jim's earlier observation that the
  A and B pages tend to be of different thickness?


> I'm also kicking myself for not having time to check the
> associated material for the letter from Manly to Mrs. V
> 20 Mar 1920 (also letter to Newbold roughly same date) in
> which he claimed that, based on freq count of 8 pages, it
> was "a comparatively simple cipher disguised by extensive
> use of nulls."

Well, presumably he did not get very far with that idea,
otherwise we would have known it by now. But I agree
it is something that must be checked out.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 08:44:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:34:58 +0000
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On 18 Nov 97 at 17:17, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> This confusion between hands and languages, let's try
> to end it. Personally, whenever I mention 'hand'
> I mean the handwriting chracteristics. A and B
> are not hands but 'languages' (by convention),
> with different statistics.

To complicate things a bit further, I called my eva font 
"EVA HAND A". I aplolgise for the confusion that this may have 
contributed to. The next release of the font will be EVA HAND 1
as it should have been from the start.

Cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 09:23:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:15:25 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Vms Character Set Analysis
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    > [Rayman:] My original transcription character set contained 39
    > characters, most of which are represented by other transcription
    > methods, with some irregularities/disagreements. ...  I was
    > surprised to find that the total number of characters on a page
    > had very little to do with the number of unique characters on
    > each page.  I would have expected more characters to show up in
    > higher volumes of text and lower counts in lower volumes.
    > Although a few pages used up to 28 of my 39 character set, most
    > remained at 24 or below.  ...  A little off-track, but curious
    > to know, what mechanism can anyone think of in a created or
    > natural language that would account for the figures below, given
    > an initial character set of 39?

Rayman, do you have the frequencies for each of your 39 letters
(either total counts or percentages), over the whole herbal section?

Given those numbers, we can compute how many distinct characters there
should be in each page, if their distributions were uniform and
indepenednt througout the text.  Then we could compare your counts to
these predictions.

(For the curious, here is the relevant math:

  Let L[1], L[2], ... L[n] be the letters of the alphabet, and p[1],
  p[2], ..., p[n] their probabilities.  
  
  Consider the random variables X[1], X[2], ..., X[n], where X[i] is 1
  if L[i] occurs in a given page, and 0 otherwise.  The number of
  distinct characters in the page is the sum
    
    K = X[1] + X[2] + ... + X[n]
    
  The expected (average) value for this variable, E(K), is the sum of
  the expected values of the terms, i.e

    E(K) = E(X[1]) + E(X[2]) + ... E(X[n])

  Since the value of X[i] is 0 or 1, its average value E(X[i]) is just
  the probablity that X[i] = 1, i.e. the probability of letter L[i]
  occurring on the page.  This is one minus the probability that all
  characters in that page are different from L[i].  So, in a page with
  M characters,

    E(X[i]) = 1 - (1 - p[i])^M
    
  and the expected number of distinct characters in that page is
  
    E(K) = sum{ 1 - (1 - p[i])^M  :  i=1,2,...,n }
    
To make the comparison more meaningful, we need also the expected
variance V(K) of the letter count.  But for that formula I must get
away from the terminal and fetch a physical book---a most distressing
notion...)
  
--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 17:47:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:52:17 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Original vs copy
References: <C1256554.002C9A35.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de> <199711200515.DAA08046@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > [Rene:] I doubt that a reasonable amount of (even very
>     > consistent) transcription errors would introduce the strange
>     > features like the grouping of soft/hard letters, the low h2,
>     > etc.
>
> The soft and hard letters have very different shapes, so I think that
> the soft/hard structure is a relatively "robust" feature that would
> survive copying by an ignorant scribe.  (A possible exception is the
> `ei'/`a' confusion.)
>
> On the other hand, the k/t distinction may be an artifact of "ignorant
> copying".  The *shapes* of those letters do seem quite distinct in the
> Beinecke manuscript, but I still haven't seen any clear statistical
> difference between them. As others have noticed, for every common `t'
> word, the corresponding `k' word is also common, and occurs with about
> 1/4 of the frequency.

Add also AN, AM, ON, OM as a group and AR, OR and AE, OE.

Check out http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260/voy/voyan1.html for more
details and some pictures.

> It is hard to explain this strong parallelism if a `t' word means
> something different from its `k' version (even if they are just
> different flections of the same root).  Natural languages often have
> such parallels in the grammar, but they don't show up in the
> statistics: the "cokes"/"coke" ratio is usually very different from
> the "chips"/"chip" ratio.
>
> One would expect statistical parallelism only if the k/t distinction
> had low semantinc value (uppercase/lowercase, metric marker, stress
> mark, musical pitch); but even this solution is not very convincing
> (contrast the frequency ratio of "John"/"john" with that of "And"/"and",
> for instance).
>
> This feature of Voynichese is problematic even for the "crypto"
> theories, as it requires a cypher complex enough to scramble
> the *word* frequencies---while still producing natural-looking,
> "clumpy" distributions of word and label occurrences along the text.
>
> The IST could provide a simple explanation for the k/t
> parallelism. Namely, in the original VMs the k and t were the same
> letter, but the size of the left eye varied all the way down to
> nothing (in the same wat that the stroke of handwritten English
> "t" may or may not extend to the left of the stem). The scribe
> thought the "eyed" and "eyeless" shapes were (or might be) different
> letters, and was careful to draw them very distinctly in the copy.  (I
> trust that you and Gabriel have faced the same dilemma many times
> while preparing your new transcription.)
>
> There are other pairs of letters whose statistics suggest a
> significant number of misreadings (s for r, sh for ch, etc.).
> I will try to post some numbers about that.

Alternatives to the IST are that the document was damaged or hurridly copied
at some point and what we have was reconstructed from that. Even so, it would
seem to have a massive number of transcription errors - over 50% of all
occurances of some words (a feature which should increase the entropy, not
lower it).

>     > Note that we also know that -al is a typical nymph ending,
>     > so the moon might be the better choice for okal after all :-)
>
> Wait, why do you assume that moon=fem, sun=masc in Voynichese?
>
> I recall some language or culture where the genders of those
> two words were just the opposite.  (German, perhaps?, No,
> I think it was something more exotic...)

In older times the moon was very much linked with the feminine side, all the
way back to the early Greeks...

Mik


--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 21:53:10 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:19:19 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Vms Character Set Analysis
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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>Rayman, do you have the frequencies for each of your 39 letters
>(either total counts or percentages), over the whole herbal section?

>
>Given those numbers, we can compute how many distinct characters there
>should be in each page, if their distributions were uniform and
>indepenednt througout the text.  Then we could compare your counts to
>these predictions.

Yes, in fact I was working on this section when I called up my mail.  Since
I am trying to retrace my steps from the beginning to present however, all
statistics for folio 1r have to be removed from my recreation.  Both copies
I have are virtually unreadable, and I cannot resolve some problems with
other transcriptions of this folio.  In addition, there are some strange
things about folio 1r that I wish to write about separately.  It seems that
paragraphs may have been added to this page through many stages of
construction - or at least that is what I see in the statistics.  I must
have a color representation of this page before I can be sure of my
findings.

>(For the curious, here is the relevant math:
>
>  Let L[1], L[2], ... L[n] be the letters of the alphabet, and p[1],
>  p[2], ..., p[n] their probabilities.
>
>  Consider the random variables X[1], X[2], ..., X[n], where X[i] is 1
>  if L[i] occurs in a given page, and 0 otherwise.  The number of
>  distinct characters in the page is the sum
>
>    K = X[1] + X[2] + ... + X[n]
>
>  The expected (average) value for this variable, E(K), is the sum of
>  the expected values of the terms, i.e
>
>    E(K) = E(X[1]) + E(X[2]) + ... E(X[n])
>
>  Since the value of X[i] is 0 or 1, its average value E(X[i]) is just
>  the probablity that X[i] = 1, i.e. the probability of letter L[i]
>  occurring on the page.  This is one minus the probability that all
>  characters in that page are different from L[i].  So, in a page with
>  M characters,
>
>    E(X[i]) = 1 - (1 - p[i])^M
>
>  and the expected number of distinct characters in that page is
>
>    E(K) = sum{ 1 - (1 - p[i])^M  :  i=1,2,...,n }
>
>To make the comparison more meaningful, we need also the expected
>variance V(K) of the letter count.  But for that formula I must get
>away from the terminal and fetch a physical book---a most distressing
>notion...)

This should yield some interesting numbers.  Perhaps you should calculate
using Frogguy's transcription?  My character counts should also be available
within a week.  It is a table 39 wide and over 100 deep, and not exactly set
up to view via e-mail.

You have to forgive me that all my research has been from the cipher
standpoint, undaunted by any semblance the Voynich has to language.  With
that in mind, what I will be attempting to demonstrate with my discourses is
that there are many more ways of viewing Voynich pages than "LANGUAGE A" and
"LANGUAGE B".  There are pages in both "languages" that demonstrate very
similar character and word stats.  When they coincide, is there any visual
conveyance that can be used to distinguish characteristics of more subtle
pages?  Yes, there is, and I will discuss them as I move along.  Back to my
work.


Regards,   Rayman


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 21:56:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:54:58 -0500
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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    Sometimes this group has very little to say, poor Jacques going away
for three weeks (There were 670 E-mails waiting on my server after that
much time -- only 160 on the VMs list though).  I don't think I could
possibly do credit to all the rather incredible points that were discussed
over the past month.  I suppose the one thing I feel most obliged to do is
provide an introduction (I really liked the anonymity though!).

    Well for starters, the obvious -- my name is John Grove. I lean toward
the linguistic arguments although I try not to be overly biased.  I am a
serving member of the Canadian Military (Egad! A military type).  To name a
few of the VM related things from my background.... I've been employed as a
translator/transcriber analyst, an instructor of the same, and am presently
taking on a year long French course.  I speak Russian,  have studied some
Japanese (and lost most of it), have taken some Chinese and am trying to
increase my vocabulary at the same time as learning French.  I've dabbled
in Arabic for a while as well, and at one time could actually read some
basic Arabic sentences.  I like puzzles of the linguistic sort -- most
folks think I'm crazy to have a hobby like the VMs and Foreign Language
syntax when it is so similar to what I get paid to do.  (Don't be mistaken,
I don't get paid to look at things like the VMs! - Oh to be so lucky).

    As for my contributions to this group... Well, I joined the list in
Feb. with a Tonal transcription.  I like to think of the 'White spaced' end
of paragraphs as "Titles" that follow the paragraph they address. I think
(at present) that the C's and I's are the same character under specific
spelling conventions.  I've altered my tonal transcription a few times to
what is now quite similar to EVA (thus EVA is superior, because they got
there more directly).  I'm not entirely convinced that my syllabic versions
at present are too far off, but this is do to personal bias.  The natural
progression of my script from tonal to syllabic to a mixture of syllabic
and single characters seems to show that I have no idea where I'm headed.
I'm hoping that it leads to something significant, but like all others, I
have little to show as PROOF.

    I am quite encouraged by the work done by Jorge as late, and am
anxiously awaiting the final result of Gabriel and Rene's tremendous
efforts at providing us all with more text on-line.  I think some of the
newer members have certainly brought out some excellent conversational
points.  Without adding to the long discussion already - I vote for 'copy',
I support the possibility of the IST, and I have never truly been convinced
that someone bent on encrypting a document of this size would leave us with
labelled pictures as clues. The points about the 'biology of plants' I find
quite interesting.  (Please don't think I'm suffering from sensory
deprivation because I didn't have my computer for a month)... The foldout
pages with the nine circles have always reminded me of some sort of map
connecting the nine 'flower' worlds together. In fact, I've often thought
that a lot of the bathing pictures showed the natural flow of 'water' from
the heavens to all living creatures through the plants.  Was there ever a
cult of plant worshippers before the 1960's?   A few points further about
character creation, affect of one character on another...

        An "A" that precedes an "S" or "S-Gallows" forces the left side of
the S to be flat -- could this not then be considered as evidence that C
and I are the same character.  I know I've frequently lost something in the
translation of my thoughts to E-mail in the past, so I'll try to clarify a
little further.
An "A" used as the same character as "9" when it precedes anything but 8
and the plain Gallows forces the writer to flatten the C strokes that would
follow thus resulting in AIIN instead of 9CC* where that * equals the
Nstroke with a C instead of an I start.  Now, as further conjecture I make
"A" a vowel and the combinations of C's or I's as consonants like S, Sh,
Sch for C, CC, CCC and I, II, III. so that I get groupings like...  8am =
dasche, 8an = dashe, 8ad = dase, but C9 = sa, CC9 = sha, and CCC9 = Scha.
As one can see, the bias from the tonal transliteration still persists in
my perception of the script.  That the groups of C's and I's are related,
and that the final to the run of C's or I's is a vowel stroke => in the
above cases notice the final 'e' on 8am, 8an, and 8ad translits.

    I've also considered it quite probable that S is a C that commences the
syllable.  A word does not normally start with C9 for example -- normally
the S9 star would prevail. Thus S9 is the same as C9 at the beginning of a
word, or at the beginning of a stressed syllable.  98C9 = adsa, but 98S9 =
ad-sa.

    Lastly, the S is often 'overlapped' by other characters or strokes such
as those causing variations in the Z and the gallows forms.  These don't
fit well as single characters and perhaps thusly are pure syllables.

    The greatest problem with my conjectures is that they greatly reduce
the alphabet.  And, secondly I've rambled on once again too long.  To all
the newcomers, welcome.  I hope you never feel offended by anything that
anyone types on this list!  In my opinion - All opinions have always been
welcome - and as for asking the same questions as before -- I think we all
keep doing that, too.

                    John.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 20 23:47:07 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Welcome back, John!  

John Grove wrote:
> 
>     Sometimes this group has very little to say, poor Jacques going away
> for three weeks 

	Don't feel sorry for Jacques; he went to Bali!! He can even read and
speak the language.  I wonder if he'll visit the island of Komodo and
see the dragons?  A zoo near me has a Komodo dragon visiting.  

>  The foldout
> pages with the nine circles have always reminded me of some sort of map
> connecting the nine 'flower' worlds together. In fact, I've often thought
> that a lot of the bathing pictures showed the natural flow of 'water' from
> the heavens to all living creatures through the plants.  Was there ever a
> cult of plant worshippers before the 1960's?   

	Here is an odd thought I've had from time to time.  Most alchemical
operations I've seen pictures of are "batch" processes.  They were
carried out batchwise in a vessel that often was sealed.  

	However, the biggest part of modern chemical production processes are
"flow" processes.  Chemicals flow continuously into reactors and
products flow continuously out.  The cascades of water in the VMs
biological folios suggest "flow" processes to me. Is there any kind of
known alchemical work that was done in this fashion, with a continuous
flow of reagents?   It seems unlikely to me, because alchemists usually
had only small amounts of reagents to work with.   

	A natural observation for a chemical engineer!

	There has been a tremendous amount of good ideas, many more than I can
keep up with.  I like Stolfi's discovery of the "hard" and "soft"
letters.  The paradigms in general interest me greatly.  I think that
they are the explanation of the anomalous h2 values.  I still think they
represent some sort of verbose cipher/verbose orthography/word game.  

	The apparent consonant-vowel alternation of the text argues that it was
pronounceable.  I also think that the paradigms may have had rhythm,
poetry, so that much of the text could be chanted.  Robert Firth's
"prosodic hypothesis" was 
along those lines.  (Levitov also thought this.  He had his moments, 
although not many!  ;-)   ) Toresella noted that the texts in the 
"alchemical herbals" were often incantations.

	My not-very-well-thought-out vote on the IST is that the VMs is a fair
copy of a draft, a fair copy by a scribe(s) who did understand the
script.  The fluency of the script argues for that.  Rayman, IIRC, noted
that the drawings are well 
laid out but not that well done, and that letters bunch up around
drawings.  

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 21 01:53:07 1997
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    > [Rayman:] Perhaps you should calculate [the expected number of
    > distinct characters per page] using Frogguy's transcription?
    
I can, but then I cannot compare the predicted counts
to your actual counts.     

(Of course, I can compute the number of distinct Frogguy or EVA characters
in each page, as you did, and compare against those numbers.)
    
    > My character counts should also be available within a week.  It
    > is a table 39 wide and over 100 deep, and not exactly set up to
    > view via e-mail.

That table would be quite interesting by itself. But, for the
computation I described, I need only the bottom line: the number of
times each character occurs in the whole sample.  (And I don't need to
know what the characters look like; just their frequencies.)

Best regards,

--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 21 03:20:11 1997
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About the seven planet names, I hesitate to
pick 'which is which'. Apart from 'short ones' for
Sun and Moon I haven't a clue. The difference between
the VMs picture and the one Robert also commented on
is that in the VMs picture the seven 'planets' are each
in one of the twelve divisions of the circle. In the other
image they were in a ring. There, the normal Ptolemaic
order makes sense (and is in fact observed). In the
Vms picture, each planet could be in its favourite house
(or in fact the opposite) and since there are many systems
for this, we cannot really guess. So 'okal' could be Sun or
Moon, but on all the others I will pull a Marci (pass
judgement).

The male/female image of Sun and Moon is only relevant
if one wants to take the contents of VMs dictionary
part I seriously (-al being a feminine ending).

On the subject of astronomy, you may remember I once
suggested that the page with the Pleiades could be a
representation of the 1054 Supernova.  Rather, I thought
it would make an interesting theory :-), especially
since there was supposedly no observation of this
phenomenon outside China and Japan. Turns out I was wrong.
OK, probably also on the meaning of this VMs picture
but definitely on the Arabic/European evidence.
There seem to be two reliable references to it,
one written in Bologna in 1467. This Ms says that
a bright star appeared on the 13th calends in the
first circuit of the moon. The year is quoted as
1058, but it has been demonstrated beyond reasonable
doubt that this is a case of 'IST'.

Just what we need: another long shot :-)

PS: those who can read Italian may find relevant articles
with an AltaVista search on 'Rampona'.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 21 03:59:10 1997
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Dennis wrote:

 > Don't feel sorry for Jacques; he went to Bali!!

 Adding to the smog with Balinese cigars.... and the food
 is excellent.

 Seriously though:

 >  I like Stolfi's discovery of the "hard" and "soft"
> letters.

 Extremely useful indeed. There is one other thing, which
 it does not explain, and which Jacques gave many years
 ago. He hypothesised that the 'O' in A-language is equivalent
 with 'CC' in B-language, and this observation is compared
 with the behaviour of different dialects. Now note that
 'O' is soft and 'CC' is hard in Stolfi's method.
 Stolfi also noted that 'C' seems to play a somewhat special
 role.

 I feel that another clue about the VMs language is still
 hidden there, but I don't see it just yet.


 > The paradigms in general interest me greatly. I think that
 > they are the explanation of the anomalous h2 values.

 Yes. The low h2 is not caused just by single anomalous letters
 like '4' which always precedes 'O', 'M' which can only be
 preceded by 'A' or 'O' or the space which is always between
 he same characters. There seem to be very strict rules
 for every character.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 21 04:23:08 1997
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    > [John Grove:] poor Jacques going away for three weeks...
    
Quite so!  I posted my 3-way paradigm one day after he 
signed off, and I have been dying to hear his opinion. 
I can't stop thinking about his Chinese theory (peace, Rayman!).
I wrote a short note about it, and attached two of 
Jacques's old messages.  If the idea doesn't get you ROTFL, please
check http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/tonal-theories/
and let me know what you think.

By the way, in case some of you haven't recognized this:

  lu3 xun4 shi4 zhong1 guo2 jin4 dai4 shi3 shang4 zui4 you3 ying3 xiang3 li4
  de wen2 xue2 jia1 gen1 pi1 ping2 jia1 zhi1 yi1 yi1 ba1 ba1 yi1 [sic] nian2
  chu1 sheng1 zai4 zhe4 jiang1 shao4 xing1 yi2 ge xiang1 dang1 fu4 yu4 de
  jia1 ting2 li3 tong2 nian2 de shi2 hou yin1 wei4 zu3 fu4 ru4 yu4 fu4 qin
  sheng1 bing4 jia1 ting2 de jing1 ji4 qing2 kuang4 tu1 ran2 bian4 de hen3
  qiong2 kun4 zhe4 zhong3 you2 fu4 yu4 bian4 dao4 qiong2 kun4 de jing1 li4
  rang4 lu3 xun4 ti3 yan4 le bu4 tong2 de sheng1 huo2 zhe4 dui4 ta1 yi3 hou4
  de wen2 xue2 chuang4 zuo4 you3 hen3 da4 de ying3 xiang3 ta1 tong2 nian2 de
  sheng1 huo2 he2 hui2 yi4 dou1 cheng2 le ta1 xie3 zuo4 zui4 hao3 de cai2
  liao4 yin1 wei4 ta1 fu4 qin jing1 chang2 sheng bing4 lu3 xun4 cong2 xiao3
  jiu4 ren4 shi le bu4 shao3 zhong1 yi1

It is Chinese, in the pinyin phonetic notation; the numbers denote the
tones (pitch patterns).  The text is meaningful, but look closely at the
second line...

    > [Dennis:] The paradigms in general interest me greatly.  I think
    > that they are the explanation of the anomalous h2 values.

Quite so. 

The low h2/h1 ratio basically says that knowing one character tells
you a lot about the next one.  Most of the paradigms that have been
proposed here have that property.  (I recall that you had a letter
substitution scheme that lowered Latin's h2 to Voynichese levels;
deep down it is the same principle.)

My scheme, for instance, implies that a soft letter is very likely to
be followed by another soft letter, and ditto for hard letters; this
rule is wrong at most twice per word.  And the "fine structure"
imposes additional constraints (after a "d" one can be almost sure to
find a "y", etc.)

Yawn,. time to go to bed... Have fun!

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Nov 21 21:29:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:23:11 -0500
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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My 'so called titles' on the Titlepage have been placed in the right order
now, and with Dennis' efforts to double check my typing I think all is in
order.  Anyway, for the new folks who might be interested the file is
located at...

http://members.tripod.com/~VoynichMs/Index.htm

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 22 11:08:07 1997
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  My name is Denis V Mardle and I first introduced
myself in Jan 1997 when I joined the VMs Group having
decided to go on the Internet.
 This time for new members I'll give more information
on my life and interests.
 I am retired and live in a village in North
Gloucestershire, England.  I have been married twice
and a Widower twice.  I was born in Luton, Bedfordshire,
England and had a fairly normal life, if a somewhat
serious and non-sporting one, until I contracted polio
at the age of 15 in 1944 ( probably from a visit to
Wembley Stadium with my father to watch a War-time
Soccer International between England and Scotland ).
 Since then I have had to use crutches plus now, almost
entirely, a wheelchair as my muscles get weaker so that
physically everything is a struggle and takes longer,
but my brain, fortunately, is still fairly sharp. I
still drive a hand-controlled car but my mileage has
dropped rapidly recently - 13000 miles plus to only
800 this last year.
 Back to 1946 when I got back to School, changed my
career aim from Chemist to Mathematician plus improving
my Chess.   I went to Cambridge University 1948-1952
becoming a Wrangler ( 1st in Maths Tripos ) and getting
a Diploma in Mathematical Statistics.  Deciding I needed
to earn some money and realising that Academic Life was
neither suitable nor sedentary enough for me, I was
snapped up by GCHQ where I stayed for 37 years plus
4 more as a part-time Mathematical Consultant.  I enjoyed
my career, going through the stages of a Research Group
member ( under Dr. I.J.Good - later a Professor in the
USA but in WWII at Bletchley Park ) and a Division Head
( C.H.O'D Alexander who was also at Bletchley ).
Later I had a Spell as Chief Programmer, then Chief
Mathematician when Shaun Wylie ( also at Bletchley )
retired in 1972 and finally as a Division Head in 1982.
 I also met John Tiltman ( also at Bletchley in WWII )
rarely before he retired, but a few times after he
joined NSA as a Consultant.  On one occasion I interviewed
him briefly on his early Army career in the 1920's when
he was almost a one-man band on the borders of the British
Empire, intercepting messages, breaking ciphers,
translating in strange languages plus reporting to Army
HQ's.
 But I digress.   I ended up as a very good, but not
quite outstanding Chess player, a fairly good Bridge
player and from 1969 onwards an on-off Analyst of the
VMs depending on my other interests, mainly Natural
History from the same date ( Bird-Watching, Dragonflies
plus a little Botany etc. ).  I have always been
interested in Puzzles of various kinds, Codes and Ciphers
from my School days ( Mathematical Recreations and Essays
by Rouse-Ball was a particular favourite ) plus the
Technical aspects of how old Inscriptions were solved,
so I looked at Cuneiform, The Rosetta Stone, Mayan
Glyphs ( Especially the Calender and Astronomical Codices ),
Etruscan ( re-examined recently ) but most of all Linear B
and a small look at Linear A.  I also have "Gods, Graves
and Scholars".  I recommend "Breaking the Maya Code" by 
Michael D. Coe to anyone interested, it was published in
1992.  Also the British Museum's "Reading the Past"
Series of ten Monographs - Runes; Mathematics and
Measurement; Egyptian Hieroglyphs; Latin Inscriptions;
Greek Inscriptions; Linear B and related Scripts;
Cuneiform; Maya Glyphs; Etruscan; The Early Alphabet.
  My Professional life was a mixture of Mathematics,
Statistics and especially Cryptology, with the main
emphasis on Cryptanalysis.  However, I am no linguist
even if I do have an expertise in the Statistical
Analysis of Languages, together with the pitfalls. For
those Technically minded Languages are not Ergodic
processes which complicates statistical tests enormously.
This is one reason I have kept out of the Entropy
arguments.  Particularly hazardous is the question of
how many different "symbols" occur in different samples
of text when the total population of "symbols" is
very non-random and what is more can be highly
correlated from running text anyway.  It would all be
straightforward ( the collector's problem ) if the
"symbols" were equi-probable.
 Finally, I consider myself to be a suitable judge of
different ideas, possible solutions, etc. in analysing
the VMs. I believe I am an impartial person who is
willing to change his mind and try to persuade others
away from entrenched positions if necessary.  It is very
important to have our facts right.  For example if their
is a well documented writing of Dr. John Dee's that has
numerals that do not agree with the folio numbers on the
VMs yet an "expert" says other Dee numbers are the same,
then we can only believe one ( if not both ) of these
observations is false.  Incidentally a possible source
of Dee's correspondence might be in ciphers sent to
Queen Elizabeth I. If any, these should be in the early
sections of "Additional Mss" in the British Museum ( or
they may now be in the Public Record Office or the
new British Library; for the later ones see David Kahn's
"Codebreakers" Appendix notes on Ellis's book "The Administration of the
Post-Office in the 18th Century"
- this book covers agents like Dee as well as Diplomatic Cipher keys and
decrypts ). 
  Good luck to everyone         Denis

 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 22 16:11:08 1997
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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:16:11 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Vms Character Set Analysis
References: <01bcf623$df9fa080$e31537a6@madimi.internetMCI.COM> <199711210645.EAA09989@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Status: OR

For those who are interested I've made some character counts and
entropyanalysis stuff available on the web.  Basically it an analysis on the
whole VOYNICH.NOW
document and a couple of English documents - a short story and the BIG3.TXT
archive of the voynich discussions. Interesting statistics - the short stroy
comes out closer to the Voynich document than to the BIG3 one?!

You can also download the java source for the counting and entropy calculating

program (I run an AMD K6 200 and the program takes from 5 to 30 seconds
to run. If you have a smaller system you will have to wait correspondingly
longer...).
The limit on input file size is your systems memory. I've successfully run it
on
the BIG3 file which is 1.2 MB.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 22 23:08:07 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
cc: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Original vs copy
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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Mik Clarke wrote:
> >
> > Wait, why do you assume that moon=fem, sun=masc in Voynichese?
> >
> > I recall some language or culture where the genders of those
> > two words were just the opposite.  (German, perhaps?, No,
> > I think it was something more exotic...)
> 
> In older times the moon was very much linked with the feminine side, all the
> way back to the early Greeks...
> 
German is definitely different. The sun is feminine and the moon is
masculine. It's weird. One would think that EVERYONE who made such
distinctions would call the direct light masculine and the reflected light
feminine -- but go figure. This is why some say that solar and lunar are
better base notions than masculine and feminine, especially when genitals
aren't involved (which is all that English looks at to determine this,
unlike more 'abritrary' gender systems -- of course, that alone allows us
to call a whale or bug or tree 'it' because we can't call anything whose
genitals we aren't sure of anything but 'it', which in English makes it
inanimate. Which is why I've maintained that English is complicit right
now in 'it-ting' Mother Earth to death!).

warm regards, moonhawk

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 23 16:32:10 1997
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        "Re: Titlepage order" (Nov 23, 22:05)
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On Nov 23, 22:05, Mik Clarke wrote:

> Subject: Re: Titlepage order
> 
> 
> John Grove wrote:
> 
> > My 'so called titles' on the Titlepage have been placed in the right order
...
> Thanks for posting this. One of the titles caught my eye:
> 
> <f105r.9;F> OFCCA89.OFCC9.OFSC89
> 
> Can anyone tell me about the picture its a label on?
> 

When I read it, the A in the first word there looks a bit like a 9, and the last word is OFSC9.
There is definitely no "8" in the last word.

There is no picture on f105r.  It is in the "recipe section", which looks like it is text
in paragrpaphs, with a decorative star in the left margin next to the start of each
paragraph, but otherwise unillustrated.  John was taking "label" to mean words isolated
from the body of text; in many cases the final few words of a paragraph seem separated
from the rest by a wide horizontal gap.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 23 15:47:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:50:53 +0000
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References: <01bcf623$df9fa080$e31537a6@madimi.internetMCI.COM> <199711210645.EAA09989@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> <347759AB.FF6B26E2@ibm.net>
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Mik Clarke wrote:

> For those who are interested I've made some character counts and
> entropyanalysis stuff available on the web.

Oops. The full URL is:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260/voy/voyan2.html

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 23 15:59:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:05:01 +0000
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John Grove wrote:

> My 'so called titles' on the Titlepage have been placed in the right order
> now, and with Dennis' efforts to double check my typing I think all is in
> order.  Anyway, for the new folks who might be interested the file is
> located at...
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~VoynichMs/Index.htm

Thanks for posting this. One of the titles caught my eye:

<f105r.9;F> OFCCA89.OFCC9.OFSC89

Can anyone tell me about the picture its a label on?

According to some theories about letter replacement, the three words in the
label could all be the same word (OFCC89). In which case the label may be
evidence of the scribe trying to get the symbols right (although by pg 105
you'd have hoped he would be a little better than this - which might indicate
that he had trouble reading the source he was working from).

The great similarity between the words is also odd.  If the picture shows
three items it might not be to fanciful to link each word with one of them. If
it shows just one or two, we have a very odd label. I'm trying to find an
English equivilent - 'manly mannish men', 'moon maon mean' maybe - hard to
find anything that would make sense...

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 23 20:44:08 1997
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:33:31 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Matteo Ricci?
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Still pursuing the Silk Road trail, I borrowed a book on the Chinese
language from the library.  While browsing trough it, I tripped, and
almost fell over, the following sentence:

<blockquote>
  The idea of writing Chinese in an alphabetic form was not new.
  ... In the late Ming dynasty [1368-1644], Matteo Ricci, the famous
  Jesuit missionary, devised a scheme for romanizing Chinese intended
  mainly as an aid for Europeans in the learning of Chinese.
</blockquote>

That is all it says, darn.  

Anyone knows more about this monsignore and his Chinese alphabet? 
(Wanna bet he is from Northern Italy? 8-)

For the record, the quote is from page 257 of 
  
  Jerry Norman
  "Chinese"
  Cambride U. Press (1988).

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 23 21:05:07 1997
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From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Matteo Ricci?
Status: OR

Stolfi:
> Anyone knows more about this monsignore and his Chinese alphabet? 
> (Wanna bet he is from Northern Italy? 8-)

An astronomical diagram of his is on the web at
http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/vatican/china09.jpg .  Not very
Voynich-like.  I haven't seen any more than you've found about
his romanization efforts, but a few Web cites say as much.

	Jim Gillogly

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 23 21:50:11 1997
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From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:   ... In the late Ming dynasty [1368-1644], Matteo
Ricci, the famous

>   Jesuit missionary, devised a scheme for romanizing Chinese intended
>   mainly as an aid for Europeans in the learning of Chinese.
> </blockquote>
>
> That is all it says, darn.

    Here's a snip from a Matteo Ricci web page....

An Italian Jesuit missionary and scientist, Matteo Ricci, b. Oct. 6, 1552,
d. May 11, 1610, was a
founder of the Christian church in China and an originator of cultural and
scientific interchange
between Europe and China. Ricci joined the Jesuits in 1571 and received an
education in
mathematics and geography. In 1577 he was sent to India, where he was
ordained. In 1582, Ricci
joined another Jesuit, Michele Ruggieri, in Macao, and from there they
entered China. Together they
made a radical break with traditional missionary methods. In order to reach
the cultured society of
China, the missionaries confronted this educated elite on its own level by
demonstrating comparable
scholarship, culture, and talent. Their goal was to convert China as an
entire culture.

Ricci's major contributions were not only his method of evangelization but
also his numerous works,
written in Chinese, on scientific, apologetic, catechetical, literary, and
mathematical topics. From
1601 until his death, Ricci was an established and respected figure in
Beijing. His method of adapting
Chinese ceremonies to the performance of Christian rites caused a prolonged
controversy in the
Roman Catholic church and was finally condemned by the pope in 1704 and
1715. Modern
missionary methods have repealed this judgment and vindicated Ricci's
foresight.


        >> Also, to Mik re: page 105 on my titlepage... That line is what I
consider a Title - as opposed to a Label.  Ie. a label by my definition is
in the vicinity of a picture, whereas the Title phrase or word is text that
follows a paragraph but is separated by white space.  As for the
characters you referenced -- they didn't quite match what I've got on my
titlepage. I'd have to check to see that I haven't got them wrong again. <<

                                                                    John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 23 22:08:09 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:59:37 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Subject: sort-distr.c: Sorting distributions
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I wrote a little C program that tries to rearrange a bunch of
histograms so as to bring similar distributions close together.

For instance, suppose you count how many times certain words occur
in certain pages, and get a table that looks like this

  banana   23 12  5  0 43  1 23 12
  avocado  28 02 73 19  0 17  8  8 
  eggplant 17 15  6 15 16  2 83 81 
  ananas   20 29 17 14 27 16  6 16 
  kumqat    1  2  3 23  0 23  4  5
  mandrake 31 11  3 13 13 10 25  9
  pepper    4  5  7 61 62 41 14 52
  manioc   61 36 35  1 52 52 35  5
  elvis    10  2  2 43  2 10  2  3

Then by running this table through

  sort-distr --skip 8 --numValues 8 --width 3

you will get

  avocado  28 02 73 19  0 17  8  8 
  ananas   20 29 17 14 27 16  6 16 
  manioc   61 36 35  1 52 52 35  5
  banana   23 12  5  0 43  1 23 12
  mandrake 31 11  3 13 13 10 25  9
  eggplant 17 15  6 15 16  2 83 81 
  pepper    4  5  7 61 62 41 14 52
  kumqat    1  2  3 23  0 23  4  5
  elvis    10  2  2 43  2 10  2  3
  
which reveals an unexpected affinity between elvis and kumqat.

You can get it at

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/software/sort-distr/

Granted, this little hack is no competition for serious statistical
tools (factor analysis, cluster analysis, dendrograms, etc.)  But it
is convenient to use, comes with source, and is *FREE* for the taking.
And it has a couple of nice original (IMHO) options:

    --discrete   tries to compensate for sampling error,
                 so that "0 0 0 1", "1 0 0 0", and "5 5 5 5" seem
                 closer to each other than to "0 0 0 5"
                 and "5 0 0 5"

    --geometric  is a good option to use if the columns refer to 
                 ordered points along some axis (e.g. pages in a
                 document, lines in a page, positions within a text 
                 line, etc.  It makes "1 0 0 0" seem closer
                 to "0 1 0 0" than to "0 0 0 1", even though they
                 are equally different as abstract histograms.

You can also ask the program to print the distance matrix (how much
it thinks that line [i] differs from line [j]), if you have a use for
such thing.

Please let me know if you have any problems, questions, 
suggestions, etc.

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 24 11:02:10 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:50:31 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Matteo Ricci?
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    > [Jim Gillogly:] An astronomical diagram [by Matteo Ricci] is on
    > the web at http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/vatican/china09.jpg .
    > Not very Voynich-like.  I haven't seen any more than you've
    > found about his romanization efforts, but a few Web cites say as
    > much.
    
    > [John Grove:] Here's a snip from a Matteo Ricci web page....
    > "An Italian Jesuit missionary and scientist, Matteo Ricci,
    > b. Oct. 6, 1552, d. May 11, 1610, ... In 1582, Ricci joined
    > another Jesuit, Michele Ruggieri, in Macao, and from there they
    > entered China."

Thanks for the tips.

My old Brittanica ('79 edition by the U.Chicago) has a page and a half
on Ricci, but doesn't mention his Chinese alphabet either.

It does say that he was well-educated in the sciences and wrote
several books in Chinese, on various subjects ranging from morals to
mathematics (including a version of Euclid's "Elements"); and that he
made many close friends and converts among top Chinese scholars,
including two princes of imperial blood (The article gives the names but I
forgot to note them down.)

He lived the last 30 years of his life in Beijing, and was buried there
with the Emperor's approval (even though Matteo never managed to 
get an audience).  His fellow Ruggieri, who was Matteo's senior,
went back to Europe shortly after their entrance into China.

Oh yes, it says also that Matteo's father was a pharmacist.

Since Matteo could write Chinese, and tried hard to blend into the
Chinese intellectual scene, it is unlikely that he was the VMs author.
(And he certainly knew how to divide a circle in 30 equal parts!)
Besides, the general character of the Vms suggests a book written by
a Chinese for a Westerner, rather than the other way around.

But Matteo did invent an alphabetic notation for Chinese.  Who knows,
perhaps some of his Chinese friends learned the script and wrote the
Vms as an "academic compensation" for Matteo's Chinese books.

In any case, at this point I think that Matteo's connection to the VMs
is at least as strong as John Dee's...

Best regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Nov 24 11:02:09 1997
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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:55:16 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Voynich Ms. in Glasgow 
Status: OR

In the Ferguson collection of alchemical manuscripts in Glasgow University
Library there is an item which seems to have passed through the hands of
Voynich. This may or may not be of relevance to the Yale manuscript. The
manuscript itself contains copies of some early alchemical treatises of
Arnald of Villa Nova and Geber,  together with some works of Roger Bacon and
Ramon Lull. Most of the manuscript is written in Latin though there are some
notes in Italian.


[MSS. Ferguson 63, 76, 135 and 192 are four uniform alchemical notebooks
probably once bound together, written by a north Italian scribe identified
in MS. Ferguson 76 as 'John Visio'. 15th Century.]
[On inside front cover]: 'Phillips Manuscript 2674.'
[On inside back cover]: 'Mr Voynich.'
[On spine]: 'Raimund Ars occulta MS.'


I have looked at this some years ago, but only looking to describe its
alchemical content. If anyone thinks it relevant then I will happily
examine it again.

Adam McLean
----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 00:26:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:16:22 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Killing the "Ignorant Scribe Theory"
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Folks, 

I think I now have a good case against the "Ignorant Scribe Theory" (IST).

I have been looking at the differences between the A and B
"languages".  They really look like two different languages. After
stripping away the "soft prefixes" (mainly o-, qo-, y-, d- in EVA),
which have similar distribution in both languages, I get these counts
for the remaining "tails":

    by Friedman                by Friedman               
    language A                 language B                
    occs  % tail               occs  % tail              
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
     255  4 -chol                95  4 -kedy             
     197  3 -chor                93  4 -kar              
     145  2 -chy                 87  4 -kaiin            
     118  2 -tchy                72  3 -chedy            
     109  2 -cthy                60  3 -chdy             
     109  2 -sho                 53  2 -tedy             
     104  2 -kchy                47  2 -keedy            
     103  2 -shol                44  2 -kal              
      90  2 -ty                  43  2 -shedy            
      88  2 -chey                39  2 -kchdy            
      87  2 -ky                  37  2 -tar              
      81  1 -shy                 36  2 -chckhy           
      78  1 -kaiin               36  2 -ky               
      75  1 -shor                27  1 -keey             
      75  1 -tol                 25  1 -chey             
      72  1 -kol                 25  1 -tchdy            
    .... .. ......             .... .. ......
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
    5967 99 TOTAL              2431 99 TOTAL             

Note that even though the general structure of the tails is similar
(the same "building blocks" like "che" and "aiin" occur in both) the
distributions are utterly different.  If we take the 12 most common
tails in each language, we find no intersection; the first shared item
is -ky, down at the 1.5% level.  Moreover, there seem to be no simple
rule that would map one set into the other, with roughly correct 
frequencies.

I have tried collapsing all sets of letters that might conceivably be
confused by a sloppy and ignorant shortsighted scribe working by
candlelight.  Namely, I have tried mapping

    t,k ---------> t
    p,f ---------> p
    r,s,e -------> e
    ei ----------> o
    o,a,y -------> o
    ch,sh -------> ee
    cth,ckh -----> tee
    cph,cfh -----> pee
    iiii,iii,ii -> i

This is what I got:

    by Friedman                by Friedman
    language A                 language B
    occs  % tail               occs  % tail  
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
     579 10 -teeo               153  6 -toe
     395  7 -eeo                150  6 -tedo
     370  6 -eeol               135  6 -teedo
     337  6 -eeoe               131  5 -toin
     226  4 -teeoe              118  5 -eeedo
     212  4 -teeol               92  4 -teeo
     197  3 -to                  88  4 -tol
     189  3 -tol                 87  4 -eedo
     178  3 -toin                65  3 -to
     167  3 -eeeo                52  2 -eeteeo
     156  3 -teeeo               51  2 -eeeo
     119  2 -toe                 41  2 -teeedo
      96  2 -eeoin               39  2 -teeeo
    .... .. ......             .... .. ......
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
    5967 99 TOTAL              2431 99 TOTAL             
      91  2 -eeeoe               31  1 -teo

The distributions are still quite different.  In fact,
the six most common tails have frequencies 

  10% 7% 6% 6% 4% 4%  in language A 
   6% 6% 6% 5% 5% 4%  in language B
   
It seems that one big difference between the two languages is that the
A author practically doesn't use the letter "d" in the tails, while B
is quite fond of it.  But that is only one difference.

I can't think of any way that these differences could have been the
result of two "ignorant scribes" misreading the same exotic script in
different ways.

But perhaps the two languages
were already present in the source(s) from which the VMs was copied?

Well, many people who have looked closely at the script claim that the
two languages correspond to two distinct handwriting styles. (I even
seem to recall a post that reported a "blind experiment" that
confirmed this claim.)  I see no easy way to explain this correlation
under the ignorant scribe theory.

If the book is a copy, it must have been copied from a single physical
instance of the book. (I can't imagine a plausible scenario where the
A and B pages could have been copied from two physical instances.)
But then I cannot imagine why (or how) scribe 1 would have picked out
only the A pages to copy, while scribe 2 picked only the B pages.

As I see it, the only way to save the IST is to assume that there was
only one ignorant scribe who copied the whole book in a more or less
continuous setting (i.e. the "same ignorant scribe, 20 years later"
will not work either.)

So we are back to the question of handwriting styles.  To those of you
who have looked at the manuscript: is there a way we can settle the
question?  Perhaps by a "blind experiment", where an ousider
(preferably one with artistic sensibility) is asked to sort the pages
in two or three piles, according to the handwriting?

If it is confirmed that languages A and B are in different
handwriting styles, then we must assume that there were two scribes
each with his own "language", or a single scribe who changed his 
"language" between the two sets of pages.  Either way, the scribe(s)
must have been doing some non-trivial processing of the text.

Perhaps they were two authors who spoke very different dialects and/or
used very different spelling systems.  Perhaps they were making
systematically different choices in a non-deerministic crypto system.
If they were copying some source they did not understand, they must at
least have been transcribing or translating from a very different
test---one that could not be mechanically transliterated
symbol-by-symbol. Either way, their intellectual involvement must have
been large enough to allow one scribe to write "chol" and "chor" where
the other wrote "kedy" and "kar" --- or something at least as crazy as
that.

Comments?

--stolfi


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Subject: Re: Killing the "Ignorant Scribe Theory"
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Stolfi wrote:

> I think I now have a good case against the "Ignorant Scribe
> Theory" (IST).

Let's also consider the Malicious Scribe Theory (MST). If
the writer of the VMs was creating a hoax, one way of obtaining
the consistent text properties would be to take an
existing Ms  (or several of them) and start transcribing
using a lossy translation. The effect will be similar to
the IST, and in fact allows more latitude in the size of
the 'errors' introduced. Note that this does not mean
that the VMs would *have to be* a hoax.

Stolfi then presents the large statistical differences between
A and B. I've been looking at the same things recently,
and developed the opinion that the only criterium that
was really used to identify the language on each page by
Currier was the suffix -dy (-89). For a few doubtful cases,
the language of the other side of the page was adopted.

These are the differences as I see them:
1) High-frequency -dy endings in B
2) Swapped preference for 'k/t' roots (mostly in B) vs.
   'ch' roots (mostly in A). Note that the k/t often
   has the (q)o prefix.
3) 'ee' in B is written 'o' in A

Note that point (1) was already observed by Petersen.
For point (2), note that labels very much prefer the k/t
roots but do not display the very-high-frequency -dy endings.

So put it all together, and then all of a sudden,
"(qo)keedy" could be the same as "chol". Too much?
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Note that "my favourite word" (qokeey), which has a very odd
frequency distribution in the stars section, occurs both in
the A and B language. In the herbal and pharma sections
it is quite evenly distributed. It is also present on the
'extra recipes page' f58, confirming yet again the theory
that this does belong with the recipes section. But f58 is
in A-language!

> I can't think of any way that these differences could have
> been the result of two "ignorant scribes" misreading the same exotic
> script in different ways.
> But perhaps the two languages were already present in
> the source(s) from which the VMs was copied?

The second notion is indeed the 'simpler' explanation.

> Well, many people who have looked closely at the script claim
> that the two languages correspond to two distinct handwriting
> styles.

I wouldn't say 'two distinct'. One distinction is very clear:
pages in the A-language are often in large round characters.
(Hand-1). Note the exception of f58 which has smaller characters.
Pages in B are often in tiny handwriting, but sometimes
they are cramped and slanted (some of the Herbal-B) and sometimes
small but neat and very legible.

> I see no easy way to explain this correlation under the
> ignorant scribe theory.

Let's list some options:
1) The text does not belong with the pictures. This would more
   fit the MST than the  IST. Can we
   discern a drawing style difference between  A and B pages?
   (I certainly can't). This would help...
2) A large time difference between the B and A writing by one
   person. Changed handwriting style and changed translation
   rules. This is rather independent of which theory one
   prefers (IST, MST or other)

> So we are back to the question of handwriting styles.  To those
> of you who have looked at the manuscript: is there a way we can
> settle the question?  Perhaps by a "blind experiment", where an
> ousider (preferably one with artistic sensibility) is asked to
> sort the pages in two or three piles, according to the
> handwriting?

We can try that ourselves. I don't see any incentive for
anyone to 'cheat' one way or another. Since you haven't seen
the entire Ms yet, let me just say that hands 1 and 2
in the herbal section are quite distinct. In all the other
sections, to me, it is not all that clear. But what is clear
there is the statistical difference between A and B...

> Either way, the scribe(s) must have been doing some
> non-trivial processing of the text.

I agree.

Still they managed to come up with a lot of the same words,
which makes the problem even more difficult.

Finally, some more idle speculation.
Look at f22v. I propose that this is a rose. But the thorns
are on the roots, not on the stem. This is something which
may be seen in Alchemist Herbals as explained by Toresella.
Imagine that the VMs writer has an unillustrated herbal as
his source. He makes the drawings by interpreting the text.
He comes up with odd composites, and in the case of the
rose, misunderstands the word 'stem' for 'root'. He would
be translating from a lanugage he is not 100% familiar with
(e.g. ignorant of the 'technical terms'). If this is what
happened, then the IST is not applicable, but the MST may
be. And the question of the writing system still remains.

More comments appreciated.

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 09:35:11 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:35:17 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: Killing the "Ignorant Scribe Theory"
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Status: OR


    > [Rene:] I've ... developed the opinion that the only criterium
    > that was really used to identify the language on each page by
    > Currier was the suffix -dy (-89). For a few doubtful cases, the
    > language of the other side of the page was adopted.
    > 
    > These are the differences as I see them:
    > 1) High-frequency -dy endings in B

I can say something more: if you delete all "d"s, and map all "a"s to
"o"s, the suffix distributions of A and B become very similar, (at
least in frequency rank, if not in absolute frequency):
     
  Before mapping
   
    by Friedman                by Friedman               
    language A                 language B                
    freq pc suffix             freq pc suffix            
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
    1816 30 -y                  639 26 -dy               
     903 15 -ol                 533 22 -y                
     705 12 -or                 168  7 -ar               
     360  6 -o                  143  6 -aiin             
     316  5 -aiin               111  5 -ody              
     218  4 -ody                 97  4 -ol               
     174  3 -ar                  84  4 -al               
     124  2 -                    63  3 -                 
     104  2 -al                  51  2 -or               
      76  1 -odaiin              44  2 -o                
      76  1 -s                   40  2 -am               
      71  1 -os                  34  1 -daiin            
      69  1 -od                  33  1 -d                
      66  1 -om                  31  1 -os               
      61  1 -am                  30  1 -s                
      49  1 -oiin                28  1 -dar              
      48  1 -ain                 26  1 -ain              
      40  1 -oldy                19  1 -od               
      35  1 -oy                  15  1 -air              
      29  1 -an                  14  1 -dal              
      29  1 -oly                 11  1 -aly              
      27  1 -ory                 10  0 -aldy             
      26  0 -odar                 9  0 -odaiin           
     ... .. ......              ... .. ......

  After mapping
    
    by Friedman                by Friedman
    language A                 language B
    freq pc suffix             freq pc suffix
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
    1853 31 -y                 1173 48 -y
    1028 17 -ol                 250 10 -or
     881 15 -or                 202  8 -ol
     456  8 -o                  179  7 -oiin
     370  6 -oiin               122  5 -oy
     266  5 -oy                  96  4 -
     136  2 -                    73  3 -o
     130  2 -om                  47  2 -om
      96  2 -ooiin               34  1 -os
      84  1 -oly                 33  1 -oin
      77  1 -s                   31  1 -oly
      76  1 -os                  31  1 -s
      53  1 -oin                 20  1 -oir
      44  1 -ory                 11  1 -ooiin
      40  1 -oor                 10  0 -oor
      35  1 -on                   9  0 -ory
      28  1 -ool                  6  0 -orom
      12  0 -n                    6  0 -oror
      12  0 -ols                  6  0 -yy
      12  0 -yy                   5  0 -ool
     ... .. ......              ... .. ......
     
    > 2) Swapped preference for 'k/t' roots (mostly in B) vs.
    >    'ch' roots (mostly in A). Note that the k/t often
    >    has the (q)o prefix.

Yes, but for roots the truth seems much more complicated.  I couldn't
find any simple mapping that would transform the A root distribution
to anything resembling the B root distribution.

I can reduce the difference a bit by mapping all "k"s to "t"s (and
"f"s to "p", since we are at it).  Also, I have a hunch that the
platform gallows cth/ckh are equivalent to tch/kch.  But 
that is still far from enough. Here is what I get:

    by Friedman                by Friedman
    language A                 language B
    freq pc midfix             freq pc midfix
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
    1090 18 -tch-               590 24 -t-
    1045 18 -ch-                274 11 -te-
     913 15 -t-                 172  7 -ch-
     526  9 -sh-                163  7 -che-
     251  4 -che-               141  6 -tch-
     191  3 -tche-              135  6 -tee-
     181  3 -pch-               110  5 -she-
     155  3 -te-                 79  3 -sh-
     142  2 -she-                64  3 -tche-
     131  2 -tee-                57  2 -chtch-
      96  2 -chot-               48  2 -chet-
      93  2 -tsh-                48  2 -p-
      69  1 -chtch-              46  2 -pch-
      61  1 -chotch-             39  2 -pche-
      60  1 -p-                  24  1 -shee-
      58  1 -chee-               23  1 -chee-
      50  1 -cht-                19  1 -cht-
      43  1 -pche-               18  1 -ee-
     ... .. ......              ... .. ......

The A/B difference is even greater if we look at roots and suffixes 
together (still with the above mappings):

    by Friedman                by Friedman
    language A                 language B
    freq pc tail               freq pc tail  
    ---- -- ------------------ ---- -- ------------------
     379  6 -tchy               171  7 -tey
     269  5 -chol               149  6 -tor
     232  4 -chor               113  5 -tchy
     195  3 -tol                108  4 -toiin
     192  3 -tchol               99  4 -teey
     191  3 -tchor               97  4 -chey
     182  3 -ty                  89  4 -tol
     163  3 -toiin               73  3 -chy
     154  3 -chy                 63  3 -ty
     121  2 -tchey               58  2 -shey
     116  2 -sho                 52  2 -tchey
     114  2 -tor                 49  2 -chtchy
     104  2 -shol                30  1 -shy
      95  2 -tcho                30  1 -tom
      88  2 -chey                28  1 -pchey
      83  1 -shy                 25  1 -pchy
      82  1 -shor                25  1 -teoy
      75  1 -teey                23  1 -chety
      61  1 -cho                 23  1 -toin
     ... .. ......              ... .. ......

I can't avoid thinking of two related but different natural languages
(or two Chinese dialects, which is the same thing).  

I think I could devise a simple set of rules to transform the common
Italian word endings into the common Portuguese endings, with similar
frequencies.  But I don't think one can do the same for the roots,
except with a huge table. And many root/suffix combinations will be
wrong (wrong geneder, wrong verb paradigm, etc.)...

    > 3) 'ee' in B is written 'o' in A

Are you sure? "ee" also appears a lot in A, so this 
equivalence can apply only to some "es"s. 

    > So put it all together, and then all of a sudden,
    > "(qo)keedy" could be the same as "chol". Too much?

Hmm, well, the word frequencies do seem to match...

    > 2) A large time difference between the B and A writing by one
    > person. Changed handwriting style and changed translation
    > rules. This is rather independent of which theory one
    > prefers (IST, MST or other)

But the point is that an ignorant scribe would not have any
"translation rules" that could change---at least, not to the extent
that we see (omitting or inventing the "d"s, changing "ch" into "t",
etc...).  

To change B into A, the person who wrote the Beinecke manuscript must
have been "processing" it, at least at the word level; and not just
copying characters.

    > We can try that ourselves. I don't see any incentive for
    > anyone to 'cheat' one way or another. 
    
Well, we already know by heart which sections are in which,
languages.  We can easily see what we expect to see.
It is not "cheating" but rather "self-delusion"...
    
    > Still they managed to come up with a lot of the same words,
    > which makes the problem even more difficult.

Well, Portuguese and Italian do have may words in common...

Regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 09:35:10 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:37:26 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Drawing styles: how many hands?
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    > [Rene:] Can we discern a drawing style difference between A and
    > B pages?  (I certainly can't). This would help...

>From the herbal images I have seen, it is obvious that the "artist"
had no artistic training, and no experience as an illustrator.
Calling the style "provincial" is being way too generous.  He didn't
have any feeling for perspective, couldn't draw two parallel lines, or
two petals of the same size.  The flowers on f24r look rather like
bagpipes with baseball gloves.  The trunk of f34r is thicker in the
middle than at its base. and so on.

What am I driving at? With so many technical bloopers, it should be
easy for someone in the business (say, an art teacher) to tell whether
the drawings were made by one person, or by several; and, if the
latter, whether the drawing styles are correlated with the A/B pages
or not...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 09:23:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:30:07 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: The Voynichese-English Dictionary, Volume II
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I got a small sample of Chinese in the pinyin phonetic 
notation, and looked at the word statistics:

    count freqy word 
    ----- ----- -----------
      244 0.065 de
      118 0.031 shi4
       78 0.021 ren2
       62 0.016 you3
       61 0.016 ta1
       55 0.015 xue2
       54 0.014 wen2
       50 0.013 shi2
       50 0.013 zai4
       42 0.011 guo2
       41 0.011 yi2
       40 0.011 yi4
       37 0.010 le
       35 0.009 ge
       34 0.009 shuo1
       33 0.009 bu4
      ... ..... .....

The most common word in the sample is "de", a toneless syllabe
that means roughly the same as the English "'s" (i.e. "X de Y"
means "X's Y").

By my count, the most common word in the herbal section, in both the A
and B pages, is EVA "daiin" (FSG 8AM).

But "aiin" is a single letter, and EVA "d" stands for an 8-shaped
Voynich glyph that, by coincidence, looks a lot like the Latin letter
"d" as written in other medieval manuscripts. (See for instance 
http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/oresme/)

If this is not irrefutable evidence, I don't know what is. So here
is the Voynichese-English Dictionary, Volume II:

   daiin    1. a particle indicating posession, origin, material,
            derivation, connection, association, etc. of the
            subsequent by the antecedent: /sheky daiin cthey/ = 
            /sheky/'s /chtey/, /chtey/ of /sheky/.            

--stolfi .-,

          ^
          |
     only half a smiley...
     

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 10:17:09 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:09:45 +0200
Subject: Re: Killing the "Ignorant Scribe Theory"
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Status: OR





    Stolfi wrote:

> Well, we already know by heart which sections are in which,
> languages.  We can easily see what we expect to see.
> It is not "cheating" but rather "self-delusion"...

Hmm, that's precisely what I thought would not happen.
I certainly don't remember which page is
in which hand and I have no special desire for Currier's
identification to be right or wrong.
My problem: I don't know what to look at.
Give me those language statistics any time...

Still, there could be a clue here. If, by changing the page order,
the handwriting appears as a gradually changing style from 1 to 2
via the four other ones identified by Currier (3, 4, X and Y),
then the single-scribe option gains significantly in weight.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 15:08:06 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Recipes (D,L,n) statistics
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:57:28 -0000
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Status: OR

  From Denis Mardle.

 The so-called Recipes section of the VMs is at the end
(ignoring the extraneous script on f116v).    It is all
Voynichese text except that paragraphs are marked with
stars.  One or two stars are missing but the paragraphs
are clear cut.  f112v is so cramped and has so many full
lines that it is difficult to line up the stars plus the
fact that the common paragraph starter symbols ( thought
by some people to be an artistic embellishment ) are much
less common in this area. f116r has two longer un-starred
paragraphs at the end which must be some sort of final
summary or Appendix, even though the starred paragraphs
seem to have similar statistics ( see below ).
 The folios are f103r to f116r with f109r to f110v missing.

 We know from Rene Zandbergen's word correlation matrix
that the Recipe section is less homogeneous than the
Biological section f75 to f84. Looking at the Recipe folios
gives an impression of local homogeneity, but the statistics
given below show very clearly that recto and verso of a
folio are written by the same person and that there are
significant differences between folios.
 The counts I have used give the frequencies of Currier D
= FSG L = eva n preceded by III ( eva iii ), II, I or
none of these.  Note that I have not tried to distinguish
A or O or any other symbol before D, ID, IID or IIID since
there are very few of them, especially in the Recipes 
section.  The advantage of using D is that it only occurs
at the ends of words with very very few exceptions and the
gap at the end of the word looks to my eye to be slightly
longer than most of the other gaps on average.

 For those who would just like a summary of the counts
the columns are folio page, lines on the page, paragraphs
on the page, counts of D, ID, IID, IIID.   The more
detailed table gives counts per paragraph by lines and
counts.

f103r 54 19  2  46  27  0    f104r 45 13  1  18  63  3
f103v 46 14  4  40  31  1    f104v 44 13  0  26  59  2

f105r 37 10  1   1  47  6    f106r 47 15  0  24  65  1
f105v 38 10  0   4  83  5    f106v 47 15  0  24  65  1

f107r 51 15  1  31  93  4    f108r 50 16  1  22  39  0
f107v 49 15  0  43  85  1    f108v 53 16  1  39  53  0

f111r 54 17  0  50  45  1    f112r 45 12  0  19  31  3
f111v 51 19  5 113  41  1    f112v 47 14  1  34  59  7

f113r 51 17  0  21  75  4    f114r 45 13  0  22  90  7
f113v 49 15  0  20  83  5    f114v 41 12  0  24  65  3

f115r 45 13  1  26  34  2    f116r 30 10  2  54  13  1
f115v 45 13  0  38  28  2    no st.20  2  6  39   8  0

 It will take too long to type the detailed table now -
I'll give it in a few days.   Note the remarkable
coincidence on folio f106, however the paragraph counts
do not correspond ( f106v for ID are 5,4,2,1,1,2,1,2,1,1,
0,0,0,0,4 and f106r are 0,0,1,1,0,4,2,1,3,3,1,1,0,0,7 -
sorry about swopping r and v )

 f105 is clearly different to the rest and f116 is at the
other extreme.

Best Wishes        Denis
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 12:44:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:37:21 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Another approach - Dalgarno's artificial philosophical language
Status: ORr


Today I was discussing the Voynich manuscript with a friend of mine, David
Weston, who is the Keeper of Special Collections at Glasgow University
Library. He is of course familiar with many languages and scripts, and the
first thing he noticed when looking at the few images I have of the Voynich
MS.  (in Brumbaugh's book), was that many words appeared to begin with the
same letters. He thought this so very odd in a language, and eventually
wondered if anyone had investigated the Voynich manuscript as an example of
an artificial philosophical language, such as that devised by George
Dalgarno of Aberdeen in the 17th Century.

I took a look at Dalgarno's book the 'Ars Signorum', London 1651. This is
written in  Latin and I did not have much time today to study the book
thoroughly, but will here summarise the main things I discovered about
Dalgano's system :-

Dalgano appears to use an alphabet of 20 characters, mostly Roman but with a
few Greek letters added. Each letter stands for, symbolises a concept. Thus
as examples,

A - ens, being
O - corpus
Y - spirit

etc.

Words are formed in Dalgarno's artificial language by compounding concepts -
thus many words begin with the same letter, each added letter refines the
concept. 

As an example,

danvai -  week
daniar - month
danial - year

The 'dan' refers to time, and the various endings further particularise the
period of time.


Another example, is that of his representation of numbers. The fact that we
have a number is marked by the initial letter 'v'

vado - 154
vel - 30
voia - 95
veitis - 380

All this is worked out in considerable detail in his book. Dalgarno includes
a small lexicon, and a number of worked out examples, including an extract
of Genesis in his artificial language. The thing that struck me so forceably
was the fact that Dalgarno-ese was full of repeats and words with almost the
same letters following one another in chains. Now Dalgarno published his
ideas for this artificial language in 1651, so we cannot apply it to the
Voynich manuscript directly, but we should ask from where did Dalgarno get
his idea of this artificial language of concept-words? Was there some
pre-existing tradition that he drew upon to fashion his particular language?
Could his methodology for generating word out of concepts have been used by
the author of the Voynich Manuscript?

Has anyone done any work on Dalgarno? He was admired by Leibnitz, who
apparently mentions him in a number of places in his writings. If anyone is
interested I could get a copy made of the sample sentences in his language
and then any of the regular contributors to this forum can apply their
statistical analysis and see if any parallels can be found with Voynichese.

Best wishes,

Adam McLean


 
----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 14:17:09 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:03:41 -0200 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199711251903.RAA16927@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Another approach - Dalgarno's artificial philosophical language
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Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Status: OR


    > All this is worked out in considerable detail in his
    > book. Dalgarno includes a small lexicon, and a number of worked
    > out examples, including an extract of Genesis in his artificial
    > language. The thing that struck me so forceably was the fact
    > that Dalgarno-ese was full of repeats and words with almost the
    > same letters following one another in chains.
    
Hear, hear... 
    
    > If anyone is interested I could get a copy made of the sample
    > sentences in his language and then any of the regular
    > contributors to this forum can apply their statistical analysis
    > and see if any parallels can be found with Voynichese.

Thanks, that would be wonderful! 

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 14:59:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:44:10 -0200 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199711251944.RAA16975@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The Voynichese-English Dictionary, Volume II
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Status: OR


    > [stolfi:] daiin 1. a particle indicating posession, origin,
    > material, derivation, connection, association, etc. of the
    > subsequent by the antecedent: /sheky daiin cthey/ = /sheky/'s
    > /chtey/, /chtey/ of /sheky/.
    > 
    > [Rene:] One snag though: I presume Chinese 'de' cannot be repeated...

Hm... Maybe you should keep your money, and wait for the second
edition of the VED.

--stolfi 8-)

From reeds Tue Nov 25 15:36:46 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9711251536.ZM2048@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:36:46 -0500
In-Reply-To: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
        "Another approach - Dalgarno's artificial philosophical language" (Nov 25, 17:37)
References: <2.2.32.19971125173721.00702d8c@pop.dial.pipex.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Another approach - Dalgarno's artificial philosophical language
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Status: OR

John Tiltman and William Friedman knew about Dalgarno's language.  I
think Friedman first came to believe the VMS was written in an artificial
language, and learned about Dalgarno's from Tiltman.  At any rate this
is all discussed in D'Imperio's book, Tiltman's survey paper, and
in Zimansky's note about Friedman and the VMS.  

But neither Tiltman nor Friedman were able to use this idea to get any further
along. I have the feeling that Tiltman came to disbelieve this theory by the
time he wrote his survey paper, but I cannot be sure.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 17:11:12 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:09:01 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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To: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Killing the "Ignorant Scribe Theory"
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> So put it all together, and then all of a sudden,
> "(qo)keedy" could be the same as "chol". Too much?
> Perhaps, perhaps not.
> Note that "my favourite word" (qokeey), which has a very odd
> frequency distribution in the stars section, occurs both in
> the A and B language. In the herbal and pharma sections
> it is quite evenly distributed. It is also present on the
> 'extra recipes page' f58, confirming yet again the theory
> that this does belong with the recipes section. But f58 is
> in A-language!

Hmmm. One way that copies used to be made was to have a reader and one or
more writers working as a team. I've tried it with computer programs and
it works pretty well. Now if between A and B there was a change of not
only scribe but also reader...

> > I see no easy way to explain this correlation under the
> > ignorant scribe theory.
>
> Let's list some options:
> 1) The text does not belong with the pictures. This would more
>    fit the MST than the  IST. Can we
>    discern a drawing style difference between  A and B pages?
>    (I certainly can't). This would help...
> 2) A large time difference between the B and A writing by one
>    person. Changed handwriting style and changed translation
>    rules. This is rather independent of which theory one
>    prefers (IST, MST or other)

The guy lost his cypher table and didn't quite reconstruct it perfectly.
This may mean that even the author could no longer decypher hand A,
Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 17:29:10 1997
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > All this is worked out in considerable detail in his
>     > book. Dalgarno includes a small lexicon, and a number of worked
>     > out examples, including an extract of Genesis in his artificial
>     > language. The thing that struck me so forceably was the fact
>     > that Dalgarno-ese was full of repeats and words with almost the
>     > same letters following one another in chains.
>
> Hear, hear...

Hmmm. And because the basic building blocks are short sequences of
letters, the second order entropy should be quite low. The German
language also does quite a lot of building words by sticking others
together, so I grabbed a few web pages (they're from a political
magazine) and ran my entropy code on them:

Processed file: g.txt

Examined 39478 characters.

Found 70 unique characters.

Found 33205 sequential character pairs.

Characters are:

  e   6230    15.7    15.7     1.4
  n   3926     9.9    25.7     2.8
  i   3366     8.5    34.2     4.2
  r   2883     7.3    41.5     5.7
  t   2291     5.8    47.3     7.1
  s   2074     5.2    52.6     8.5
  a   1975     5.0    57.6    10.0
  d   1660     4.2    61.8    11.4
  u   1532     3.8    65.6    12.8
  h   1476     3.7    69.4    14.2
  l   1322     3.3    72.7    15.7
  o   1065     2.6    75.4    17.1
  g   1020     2.5    78.0    18.5
  c   1015     2.5    80.6    20.0
  m    869     2.2    82.8    21.4
  b    597     1.5    84.3    22.8
  f    596     1.5    85.8    24.2
  k    552     1.3    87.2    25.7
  w    450     1.1    88.4    27.1
  z    367     0.9    89.3    28.5
      330     0.8    90.1    30.0
  p    306     0.7    90.9    31.4
  v    269     0.6    91.6    32.8
      238     0.6    92.2    34.2
  S    210     0.5    92.7    35.7
  A    201     0.5    93.2    37.1
  R    183     0.4    93.7    38.5
  D    180     0.4    94.1    40.0
      155     0.3    94.5    41.4
  M    147     0.3    94.9    42.8
  B    129     0.3    95.2    44.2
  U    122     0.3    95.5    45.7
  E    121     0.3    95.8    47.1
  P    114     0.2    96.1    48.5
  K    107     0.2    96.4    50.0
  G     95     0.2    96.6    51.4
  I     94     0.2    96.9    52.8
  W     92     0.2    97.1    54.2
  L     90     0.2    97.3    55.7
  T     88     0.2    97.6    57.1
  F     86     0.2    97.8    58.5
       85     0.2    98.0    60.0
  V     79     0.2    98.2    61.4
  N     78     0.1    98.4    62.8
  9     70     0.1    98.6    64.2
  Z     65     0.1    98.7    65.7
  H     55     0.1    98.9    67.1
  1     53     0.1    99.0    68.5
  0     48     0.1    99.1    70.0
  O     40     0.1    99.2    71.4
  j     34     0.0    99.3    72.8
  y     33     0.0    99.4    74.2
  C     30     0.0    99.5    75.7
  J     28     0.0    99.6    77.1
  x     27     0.0    99.6    78.5
  2     25     0.0    99.7    80.0
       17     0.0    99.7    81.4
  4     16     0.0    99.8    82.8
  5     14     0.0    99.8    84.2
  3     14     0.0    99.8    85.7
  6     13     0.0    99.9    87.1
  7     10     0.0    99.9    88.5
  8      7     0.0    99.9    90.0
        6     0.0    99.9    91.4
  Q      2     0.0    99.9    92.8
        2     0.0    99.9    94.2
        1     0.0    99.9    95.7
  q      1     0.0    99.9    97.1
  X      1     0.0    99.9    98.5
        1     0.0    99.9   100.0


Number of characters: 70

  Entropy:
    Single Character -
           Max:   6.129
      Observed:   4.538 (  74.0%)
    Double Character -
           Max:  12.258
      Observed:   7.692 (  62.7%)

Report complete

The secod order entropy is very low (62%) compared to English (normally
betwen 70% and 85%). Single character entropy seems a little low as
well. Sample size was only a 49K source document though.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 19:38:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:26:46 -0200 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199711260026.WAA17349@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Recipes (D,L,n) statistics
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Status: OR


    > [Denis:] Recipes (D,L,n) statistics
    
Yum, numbers! 

Here are Denis's ID statistics again, rearranged by a 
few iterations of my new "sort-distr" toy, I mean tool:

    f105v 38 10   0   4  83   5
    f105r 37 10   1   1  47   6
    f113v 49 15   0  20  83   5    
    f114r 45 13   0  22  90   7
    f113r 51 17   0  21  75   4    
    f104r 45 13   1  18  63   3
    f107r 51 15   1  31  93   4    
    f106r 47 15   0  24  65   1
    f106v 47 15   0  24  65   1
    f114v 41 12   0  24  65   3
    f104v 44 13   0  26  59   2
    f107v 49 15   0  43  85   1    
    f108r 50 16   1  22  39   0
    f112v 47 14   1  34  59   7
    f112r 45 12   0  19  31   3
    f108v 53 16   1  39  53   0
    f115r 45 13   1  26  34   2    
    f111r 54 17   0  50  45   1    
    f115v 45 13   0  38  28   2    
    f103v 46 14   4  40  31   1
    f103r 54 19   2  46  27   0
    f111v 51 19   5 113  41   1    
    f116r 30 10   2  54  13   1
    no st.20  2   6  39   8   0

Here is the corresponding distance matrix.  The number in line [x] and
column [y] is how much the program thinks that the distribution of
-I*D endings in page [x] differs from that in page [y], in a scale
0-99.
  
  f105r   6
  f113v  13 13
  f114r  13 13  1
  f113r  15 15  2  2
  f104r  16 15  3  3  1
  f107r  18 17  5  5  3  2
  f106r  20 19  7  7  5  4  2
  f106v  20 19  7  7  5  4  2  0
  f114v  20 19  7  7  5  4  2  2  2
  f104v  23 22 10 10  8  7  5  4  4  3
  f107v  26 25 13 13 11 10  8  6  6  6  3
  f108r  28 27 16 15 13 13 11  9  9  9  6  4
  f112v  29 27 16 16 14 14 12 11 11 10  7  7  5
  f112r  30 29 18 17 16 15 13 12 12 11  8  7  5  1
  f108v  34 33 21 21 19 18 16 15 15 14 11  9  6  7  6
  f115r  35 33 22 22 20 19 17 16 16 15 12 10  7  6  5  4
  f111r  44 42 31 30 28 28 26 24 24 24 21 18 15 15 14 10  9
  f115v  48 46 35 34 33 32 30 29 29 28 25 23 20 19 18 14 13  5
  f103v  47 45 34 33 32 31 29 28 28 27 24 22 19 18 17 13 12  6  4
  f103r  53 52 40 40 38 37 35 34 34 33 30 28 25 24 23 19 18 10  6  7
  f111v  63 61 50 50 48 47 45 44 44 43 40 38 35 34 33 29 28 19 15 16 10
  f116r  69 67 56 55 53 53 51 49 49 49 46 43 40 40 38 35 34 25 21 22 16  6
  no st  69 67 56 55 54 53 51 50 50 49 46 44 41 40 39 35 34 26 22 22 17  9  7
                                                                             
          f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f
          1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1
          0  0  1  1  1  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  1  1  0  1  1  1  0  0  1  1
          5  5  3  4  3  4  7  6  6  4  4  7  8  2  2  8  5  1  5  3  3  1  6
          v  r  v  r  r  r  r  r  v  v  v  v  r  v  r  v  r  r  v  v  r  v  r

Of course there may be a bug in my program, or my distance function
may be all wrong.  Please keep this in mind when reading the rest of
this message...

    > f116r has two longer un-starred paragraphs at the end which must
    > be some sort of final summary or Appendix, even though the
    > starred paragraphs seem to have similar statistics.

Right, but both parts are anomalous: in relative terms, the "-ID"
count is much higher on f116r than on other pages. (And note the
similarity to page f111v!)

    > Looking at the Recipe folios gives an impression of local
    > homogeneity, but the statistics given below show very clearly
    > that recto and verso of a folio are written by the same person
    
Mostly, but f111 and f115 may be exceptions.
    
    > and that there are significant differences between folios.
    > f105 is clearly different to the rest and f116 is at the
    > other extreme.
    
According to the distance matrix above, the pages can be divided into
four groups:

  w { f105r f105v }
  
  x { f113v f114r f113r f104r f107r f106r f106v
      f114v f104v f107v f108r f112v f112r f108v f115r }
    
  y { f111r f115v f103v f103r }
  
  z { f111v f116r }
  
Page f111r is sort of a transition between groups x and y, and f103r
is a transition between y and z.

Moreover there seems to be a gradual linear evolution in group x,
approximately in the order shown.  So perhaps the apparent
inhomogeneity is due to the bifolios having been scrambled before they
were numbered?

It is interesting to look at how the folios are paired in the binding.
>From Rene's diagram, they are all in one quire. Let's number the
bifolios 1..6, from the outside in, and use A for the left folio, B
for the right one.  Then the groups are:

  w { 3Ar 3Av }
  
  x { 4Bv 3Br 4Br 2Ar 5Ar 4Ar 4Av
      3Bv 2Av 5Av 6Ar 5Bv 5Br 6Av 2Br }
    
  y { 6Br 2Bv 1Av 1Br }
  
  z { 6Bv 1Br }

It is a bit strange that the two halves of the outermost bifolio
{1A,1B} = {f103,f116} are similar to each other AND to the left 
half of the innermost bifolio {6B} = {f111}. 

The pattern may be the result of several scribes copying a stack of loose
bifolios in parallel, at different speeds, as someone suggested for
the A/B split in the Herbal section.  But then we should expect the two halves
of bifolios 3 and 6 to be similar.

Perhaps the pattern is due to the contents itself: f103 and f116
could be prose (non-recipe) introductions to new sections, f111 a
conclusion or summary, and f105 something else again.
  
Perhaps it is any of these, complicated by scrambling of the bifolios...

    > The counts I have used give the frequencies of Currier D = FSG L
    > = eva n preceded by III ( eva iii ), II, I or none of these.
    > Note that I have not tried to distinguish A or O or any other
    > symbol before D, ID, IID or IIID since there are very few of
    > them, especially in the Recipes section.
    
I remember seeing many "CI" pairs in the Bio section, and I convinced
myself that they were equivalent to "A"s (largely by comparing the
statistics of AD and CID, AID and CIID, AIIID and CIIIID).  

The graphic difference between "A" and "CI" is very subtle, to say the
least.  Many of the discrepancies between Currier and Friedman are of
this sort. (And many are confusions between IID for IIID.)  I wonder
how much your numbers may have been affected by the "CI"/"A"
confusion?

Thanks for the data,

--stolfi


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 19:50:08 1997
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From: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:44:58 +0800
Subject: Re: The Voynichese-English Dictionary, Volume II
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Status: OR


Folks

Congratulations to stolfi on his dictionary.  By my count,
we have only another 999 words to go!

I agree that the evidence he offers is very strong, not least
because the same particle, with the same function, occurs
in Italian, Occitan, French, and "latino sine flexione".

However, in Italian it typically combines with a following
definite article, so maybe we can either look for daiin
compounds, or tentatively rule out that language?

Meanwhile, can we also agree on

4	and, also, along with, or other particle implying aggregation
     of the following substantive with the preceding

Yours
Robert


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 20:17:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:10:53 +0800
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Folks

Most everyone in the West who tries to invent a philosophical language
seems to end up with a left factored one.  I'm not at all sure why.

Note, for instance, that the Linnaean system of nomenclature is left
factored, although we typically write only genus and species:

     vertebrata - mammalia - primata - hominidae - home - sapiens

Anyway, the only other attempt I know at about that time was Wilkins
"real character", published in 1668.  His script was not based on the
roman alphabet, but purely invented.  By the way, his symbol for the
copula is a small "v" placed in the middle of the line, very like the
"and" of formal logic.

But I do recall that Matteo Ricci devised a "language" intended as
an aid to memorisation, based on a fixed sequence of mental images.
Maybe he also privately invented a written language to correspond,
in which case the VMs might be a sequence of memory cues, like
the rongo-rongo script of Easter Island (hey, wonder what the entropy
of that script looks like??).  Over to you, Mr Guy.

The success of standard arithmetic notation, and later that of the
propositional calculus - both of which are based precisely on the
use of symbols to stand for ideas, not words - shows that this project
is not totally absurd.

But I remain unconvinced the VMs is left factored - I recall giving
the reasons in a note some time ago, but it was based on the
observation that the relative frequencies of group endings was
stable for several distinct group beginnings, which suggests the
endings carry independent meaning, which is not the case with
a pure left-factored language.

Yours
Robert

[John Wilkins: Essay towards a Real Character and Philosophical Language,
London 1668]
[Jonathan D Spence: The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci, Viking 1994]


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Nov 25 21:59:07 1997
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From: pepe@prince.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 11:53:21 JST
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To: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: "Denis Mardle"'s message of Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:57:28 -0000 <E0xaODe-00027H-00@snow.btinternet.com>
Subject: About the section "recipes"
Status: OR


Hello everybody!

I am Jose Beltran-Escavy. I sent a message some time ago, and I have
spent most of the time "lurking" around.

The other day we had in Tokyo a little informal presentation about the
VMs for University students, with the invaluable help of Mr.
Takahashi, another member of the Voynich miling list. It was a
success, and I think that we managed to "recruit" some people who were
rather fascinated by it (BTW, I think that it would be good to do this
again in some other country. Anybody interested?).

But, anyway, this is not the main subject of this message. Forgive me
for wandering away... The thing is that, during that conference, I had
the chance to look at very good copies of the "Recipes" section at the
end of the manuscript (the pages that have those "stars" at the
margins).

As soon as I saw it, I felt that it looked very much like an INDEX to
me. I mean, the "stars" might mark paragraphs that would "sum up" the
subjects dealt with in the manuscript (in a similar way as "bullets"
might be used in modern texts). Does anybody think like me? Has
anybody done some research in this direction?

During the discussion time at the presentation a lot of "theories"
were advanced, some more far-fetched than others... An interesting one
was given by a student who had been looking hard at copies of the
"biological section" (the one with all the drawings of little women
"romping around"). She "felt" that the drawings could be interpreted
as describing the feminine reproductive system and the idea of
fertilization/pregnancy in some sort of allegorical way. I guess that
this must have been already said by many others, but I don't know
whether this "theory" has been completely disproved or not. Sometimes
I think that it could be interesting to try and do something with the
images in order to get some clues as to the text; I cannot believe
that in *all* pages the drawings have nothing to do with the text.

Sorry for taking up your time!

Best wishes,

               Jose Beltran-Escavy
               pepe@prince.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp

From reeds Tue Nov 25 22:18:42 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9711252218.ZM27740@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:18:41 -0500
In-Reply-To: "robertjf"<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
        "Artificial Languages" (Nov 26,  9:10)
References: <4825655B.0005081B.00@notes.iss.nus.sg>
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To: voynich@rand.org
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On Nov 26,  9:10, robertjf wrote:

...
> 
> But I do recall that Matteo Ricci devised a "language" intended as
> an aid to memorisation, based on a fixed sequence of mental images.
...
There was a book "The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci" a few years back.
But this idea of a mental image of a sequence of places in an imaginary
building, which one cultivates as an aid to remembering  sequences of things
which one mentally locates in the places, is a much older idea.  Yates's
"The Art of Memory" traces this technique to Tertullian, who presents it
as a lawyer's trick.  (I think.)  Ricic didn't invent it, although he might well
have used it and/or described it.

I think the idea of a deliberately constructed "logical" or "universal" language
first arises in the mid 1600s, and is thus too late for a late 1400's or even Rudofine-
era date for the VMS.




-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 00:14:08 1997
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I'll cast my vote for exploring the possibility that the VMS is written
in an artificial, "philosophical" language. The language certainly seems
to be structured like one, and it doesn't seem very much like a natural
language or a cipher or code. (This latter should be regarded as pure
speculation; I haven't the background as a linguist or cryptographer
that many of the participants in this list have.)

Anyway, when Adam McLean pointed out the possibility, I was struck with
its plausibility. Many years ago, I read in _Borges: A Reader_ an essay
called "The Analytical Language of John Wilkins". I found it after much
digging this evening, and found this relevant passage:

"Descartes had already noted in a letter dated November 1629 that by
using the decimal system of numeration we could learn in a single day to
name all quantities to infinity, and to write them in a new language,
the language of numbers. He also proposed the formation of a similar,
general language that would organize and contain all human thought.
Around 1664 John Wilkins began to undertake the task.

"Wilkins divide the universe into forty categories or classes, which
were then subdivisible into differences, subdivisible in turn into
species. To each class he assigned a monosyllable of two letters; to
each difference, a consonant; to each species, a vowel. For example, de
means element; deb, the first of the elements, fire; deba. a portion of
the element of fire, a flame. In a similar language invented by
Letellier (1850) a means animale; ab, mammalian; abi, herbivorous; abiv,
equine; abo, carnivorous; aboj, feline; aboje, cat; etc. In the language
of Bonifacio Sotos Ochando (1845) imaba means building; imaca, brothel;
imafe, hospital; imafo, peshouse; imari, house; imaru, country estate;
imede, pillar; imedo, post; imego, floor; imela, ceiling; imogo, window;
bire, bookbinder; birer, to bind book. (I found this book published in
Buenos Aires in 1886: the _Curso de lengua universal_ by Dr. Pedro
Mata.)"

I realize that all these references are too late to have anything
directly to do with the VMS (unless it is a relatively modern forgery),
but the absence of contemporary examples does not rule out the
possibility that they are simply lost now. The connections and potential
connections to Dee, Bacon, etc., certainly leave the possibility open.

Such a language would almost certainly defy conventional cryptographic
techniques, especially if the syntax was as unique and artificial as the
vocabulary. Dee and Kelley generated a fragment of a similar language in
their Enochian language, which has some traces of a "philosophical"
character to it. Perhaps they knew or knew of the VMS author, or vice
versa?

Anyway, if it is Wilkinesque language, determining the approximate
meaning of a few words will provide clues to words with a similar
spelling.


Cheers,
Eric

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 00:26:07 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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	<robertjf@iss.nus.sg>
	<9711252218.ZM27740@research.att.com>
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Status: OR


    > I think the idea of a deliberately constructed "logical" or
    > "universal" language first arises in the mid 1600s, and is thus
    > too late for a late 1400's or even Rudofine- era date for the
    > VMS.

Well, I for one am glad to hear that.  

If Voynichese is a natural language, encrypted or not, we can be
reasonably sure of recogizing a correct decipherment, if and when we
get it.

If it is a "lost" invented language, even half as weird as
Dalgarnos's, we might as well give up...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 02:44:08 1997
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 Hello Denis,

 Please note that in the recipes section there is
 a singificant error in the FSG transcription.
 Even though in the FSG file (which presumably you
 used) the -AIID ending (Currier AM) occurs with the
 expected frequency, many of these are actually
 -AID (Currier AN). Please verify yourself (the
 Yale copy being far more easy to use in this
 section than Petersen, but both should bear this out).

 Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 03:05:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:57:12 +0200
Subject: Re: Artificial Languages
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Dear all,

Jim  Reeds wrote:

> I think the idea of a deliberately constructed "logical" or
> "universal" language first arises in the mid 1600s, and is
> thus too late for a late 1400's or even Rudofine- era date
> for the VMS.

These two centuries are a significant amount of time, but
this is not 'hard evidence'.
Similarly, my argument that someone who designed an
artificial language and wanted to show it in a long text
would not pick a totally unknown work to do it, is not
'hard evidence' (note what Dalgarno used for a sample).
In fact Jim's argument is stronger.

Still, we don't have any detailed information about
Friedman's results (numerical or otherwise) so I think
it would be an error not to explore this possibility.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 05:29:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 03:23:12 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Artificial Languages
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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[Stolfi wrote:]
>If Voynichese is a natural language, encrypted or not, we can be
>reasonably sure of recogizing a correct decipherment, if and when we
>get it.
>
>If it is a "lost" invented language, even half as weird as
>Dalgarnos's, we might as well give up...

One thing appears pretty clear, and that is that the Voynich cannot be any
known "natural" western language, even if the author was the world's worst
speller.  Both "word" and character frequencies are nothing close to
European languages of the time.  An investigation based on these frequencies
would rule out cipher as a medium, and even the possibility of code would be
in doubt if we assume the underlying writing to be natural language.  This
is in fact where everyone else got off the cipher wagon, and if I had a lick
of sense I should have followed them years ago.  Had I jumped off the wagon
when I should have, I would be an avid supporter of the invented language
camp.

The problem is that I don't feel the Voynich to be either natural language
or invented language, but an exercise in "concocted" language.  I speak with
Polish friends from time to time, and when the conversation gets going the
languages begin to blend, especially when there are Russians sitting at the
table.  Hearing words from three languages in a single sentence is not only
very common, it also seems to be a game we get into, much like the wordplay
we used to indulge in at language school.  I am always on the short end of
the stick because I am not as fluent in Polish as I am in Russian, so some
of it gets by me.  The one thing I never miss is the beauty of the way the
mind accesses and addresses languages in a way that optimizes the
expressional capabilities of the medium.

Concocted languages are in keeping with cipher protocol of the time period,
just as alternate spellings were not only popular but expected.  Who was it
that said of Daniel Webster something to this effect?:  "I could never trust
a man who knows only one way to spell a word."  All cipher attempts have one
thing in common, and that is that they can never extract purely natural
language and spelling from the Voynich.  Even in Dr. Strong's decipherment,
Dennis Mardle noted that certain key words were spelled too exactly to match
the rest of the text.  (This was a misobservation, but nevertheless a major
point in his argument.  {Askam is not an accurate spelling of either Askham
or Ascham.  "Sunflower" is however quite suspicious as a crib. })

Along with that, if we presume the language to be English, we can read
"Kengs Gonroe" and "Lyonix Yorx" in a certain light, but if we do not know
the base language, we would not know what to make of such a finding.  No one
would ever say "Lyonix Yorx" in a conversation, and we would never read it
in a natural language.  When we know the author to be an Englishman however,
we know that "Kengs Gonroe" is most probably King Henry, and that "Lyonix
Yorx" means "The Lion of York".  (Does anyone know who the Lion of York
could have been, because I can't find squat on the subject.)  This mechanism
was standard security in cipher, and a single author going overboard in
instituting this type of security should not invalidate the cipher question.

On the linguistic side I feel that language is a critical element in the
Voynich.  It was probably much easier for the author to manipulate language
than a complicated cipher.  On the cipher side I may be the only one left on
a Radio Flyer wagon being pulled by a team of two dachshund puppies, but 50
years have gone by without anyone riding this wagon, and had I gotten off
you would never hear the other side.  (Besides, they're cute puppies!)

With the holidays thrust upon me, I know that little more will be done by me
than the pumpkin pie that is now in the oven, but I do want to thank
everyone for a wonderful year of research.  This year you have validated
much of my research, some by my pushing an issue, and other points on your
own.  I have also modified my views in kind, because of the wonderful
arguments presented by each and every one of you.  The arguments were
sometimes honest and intense, and oddly enough those were the ones I enjoyed
the most.  Nevertheless, we have all managed to remove much wild speculation
from our thoughts and settled down to the matter at hand.  While many
"origin" issues remain unresolved, we have at least loosely framed the
search area.  I am pleased to see that in an arena where anything could
happen, the primary drive is the logical calculation of assumptions based on
the few real facts we actually have.

Many of you are truly open minded, and others hold certain beliefs very
dear, an affliction from which I confess I also suffer.  I am respectful of
the open minded thinkers for their ability to bridge the gap in
understanding when I or someone else wanders into the Voynich DMZ.  As much
as I desire to be a non-combatant, I am the only person who represents my
argument, and therefore the only one who can hand it off when the time
comes.  In this effort I am greatly handicapped because all that I say is
taken in by Voynichers and filtered through linguistic eyes.  As much as I
try to be concise, my words have little orientation to the linguist.  It has
also been a year of deep frustration.

The new year will see me holding a bologna sandwich and a coke, still riding
my little red wagon pulled by my two dachshund puppies, and we will continue
to learn from each other, albeit through conflicting views.  My strategy
will change somewhat, and there will be more specific disagreement (Peace,
Stolfi!).  I will be presenting documentation on my findings, and analysis
other than my own will be more than welcome.  What I do not want to happen
however is that my data be translated into linguistic terms, as these
analyses are done with cipher in mind.  As an example, Stolfi seems to
assume that my expected character count is 23 or 24, when there was indeed
no expected character count in the beginning.  There is no reason he cannot
perform his probability statistics on Frogguy's alphabet.  I used simple
statistics to determine the expected character count, not assumptions.  His
model should work as well on Frogguy, Currier, FSG, or even Rmalek
transcriptions if it is a valid model.

Somewhere along the line we have to decide whether this group can
objectively consider statistics from a cipher origin, without linguistic
interpolation.  It is impossible for me to defend my thought processes
against all the possible linguistic statistics that my work may translate
into.  Without a real concession to cipher infology, everything I have to
display would be received with colored eyes, and any attempts at
understanding my work would be fruitless.

I have one thing that no one else in the group has, and that is an
unwaivering belief that I am correct in my approach.  That says a lot to me,
and to everyone else.  It says that you should unanymously boot me and my
little red wagon completely out of the group, because I have been talking to
myself and my dogs way, way too long!  It could also mean that I have
discovered elements that cause me to cling to this warped theory in
deference to all other theories.  God forbid that a single individual have
the insight to go against the group and actually be correct.  (Yes Virginia,
life does actually work that way.)

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 05:50:07 1997
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On 25 Nov 97 at 9:30, Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> If this is not irrefutable evidence, I don't know what is. So here
> is the Voynichese-English Dictionary, Volume II:
> 
>    daiin    1. a particle indicating posession, origin, material,
>             derivation, connection, association, etc. of the
>             subsequent by the antecedent: /sheky daiin cthey/ = 
>             /sheky/'s /chtey/, /chtey/ of /sheky/.            

It could be. Could it be pssible to have a construct like:
"daiin.daiin" or even "daiin.daiin.daiin" ?

Both appear in the ms.

Very curious. 

Gabriel
      
 
 

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> "Kengs Gonroe" is most probably King Henry, and that "Lyonix
> Yorx" means "The Lion of York".  (Does anyone know who the
> Lion of York could have been, because I can't find squat on
> the subject.)

What about Lioness...?

Rene


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    > [Rayman:] As an example, Stolfi seems to assume that my expected character
    > count is 23 or 24, when there was indeed no expected character
    > count in the beginning.  There is no reason he cannot perform
    > his probability statistics on Frogguy's alphabet.  I used simple
    > statistics to determine the expected character count, not
    > assumptions.  His model should work as well on Frogguy, Currier,
    > FSG, or even Rmalek transcriptions if it is a valid model.
    
? I don't recall such assumption. Perhaps you are referring to the 
"anomalous pages" I listed, based on your counts?  I picked those 
by eye from the plot, without any preset expectation.

    > Somewhere along the line we have to decide whether this group
    > can objectively consider statistics from a cipher origin,
    > without linguistic interpolation.  It is impossible for me to
    > defend my thought processes against all the possible linguistic
    > statistics that my work may translate into.  Without a real
    > concession to cipher infology, everything I have to display
    > would be received with colored eyes, and any attempts at
    > understanding my work would be fruitless.

I think it is great that someone is following the crypto path.  At the
moment I am betting on an exotic natural language, but I am far from
certain.  I would give it 80% odds, whathever that means...

    > Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

Same to you...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 06:23:08 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 26 Nov 97 at 3:23, rmalek wrote:

> When we know the author to be an Englishman however,
> we know that "Kengs Gonroe" is most probably King Henry, and that "Lyonix
> Yorx" means "The Lion of York".  (Does anyone know who the Lion of York
> could have been, because I can't find squat on the subject.)  

I do not know what the Lion of York is,  [a pub? :-) ] but I can say 
that York was called "Eboracum" even in Askam times (mid 1500's). 
Evidence? Well, the ms. Bodley 68 has a diagram for a "navicula 
venetiis" , http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/kaleido/objects/image2.htm
and a table of coordinates (not sure for what) with the word 
Eboracum (for York) some numbers and a comment in Latin saying 
something like: Anthony Askam doctor astrologie dict.

The name of York comes from Jorvik, the name that the vikings gave to 
the place. During Roman times, it was called Eboracum. I am not sure 
when the name of York became common.

I hope this is of interest.

Regards,

Gabriel

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:32:47 +0200
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Robert Firth wrote:

> Meanwhile, can we also agree on

> 4	and, also, along with, or other particle implying aggregation
     > of the following substantive with the preceding

Hmm,
isn't 4 taken by itself more frequent than 8AM / daiin?
Thus, my vote has to be that '4' actually is the equivalent
of Chinese 'de'. These are the compelling arguments:

1) 4 just looks like a toneless syllable. 8AM does not.
2) 4 is never repeated. 8AM can be repeated up to three times.
3) There are also 8AN and AM. These would logically be shorter
   than 8AM. But what can be shorter than a toneless 'de'?
4) 4 always precedes words starting with 'O'. Thus, words
   starting with 'O' are nouns or noun-like words. Here we
   see that Voynichese is a Dalgarno-type representation of
   Chinese with preservation of the tones.

The bad news: we're still down to one word only.
The good news: we've got the first grammatical rule as well.

Insert smileys liberally.
Happy Thanksgiving,

Rene


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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 26 Nov 97 at 11:17, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> I do not know what the Lion of York is,  [a pub? :-) ] but I can say 
> that York was called "Eboracum" even in Askam times (mid 1500's).

I meant that even York was called York in mid 1500's (which I do not 
know), it was also known as Eboracum.
Sorry if I was not clear.

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 11:47:15 1997
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From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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Rayman wrote:
> just as alternate spellings were not only popular but expected.  Who was it
> that said of Daniel Webster something to this effect?:  "I could never trust
> a man who knows only one way to spell a word."  All cipher attempts have one

President Andrew Jackson -- I didn't know he said it about Webster, though.
It was something along the lines of "It's a damn small mind that can only
think of one way to spell a word."

Vice President Dan Quayle misquoted it and attributed it to Mark Twain in the
aftermath of the "potatoe" incident.

I agree that authors in the time of the VMs (whenever that was) didn't suffer
from this narrow-mindedness.

	Jim Gillogly

From reeds Wed Nov 26 12:28:39 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:28:39 -0500
In-Reply-To: "Eric O'Dell" <eric@gadgetguru.com>
        "Re: Philosophical Languages" (Nov 25, 23:10)
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On Nov 25, 23:10, Eric O'Dell wrote:
> Subject: Re: Philosophical Languages
...

> 
> I realize that all these references are too late to have anything
> directly to do with the VMS (unless it is a relatively modern forgery),
> but the absence of contemporary examples does not rule out the
> possibility that they are simply lost now. The connections and potential
> connections to Dee, Bacon, etc., certainly leave the possibility open.
> 
...


> Anyway, if it is Wilkinesque language, determining the approximate
> meaning of a few words will provide clues to words with a similar
> spelling.

I think the fad for philosophical languages had to occur after the 17th century
fad for logic. Without Peter Ramus, Descartes, Pascal, and Leibnitz convincing
the world that there was more to logic than the classification of syllogisms
into types, there would never have been a desire to formulate a new language
whose structure matched the principles of logic. A constructed philosopical
language in the early 1500s would be as out of place as a discussion of the
internal contradictions of capitalism, or of the subconscious mind, or of new
species of plants or animals coming into being by the cummulative effect of
imperceptible changes over time.

My understanding of the chronology of invented languages is something like
this: in classical times there was a state of complete linguistic complacency:
Greek, and then Latin were sufficient for all purposes. During the middle ages
it was known that the current diversity of languages began with the distruction
of the Tower of Babel; before then there was one language, possibly Hebrew.
With the discovery of the Cabala, the Latin west became interested in Hebrew as
a privileged language. People such as Dee adopted elaborate versions of this
view, distinguishing between several pre Babel languages, one of which was
Enochian. Recovery of these privileged languages was possible only through
revelation. Meanwhile (mid 1500s through mid 1600s) a rebirth of interest in
philosophy and logic (Descartes, Leibnitz, etc) gave rise to an interest in
symbolic logic and (as a minor offshoot) philosophical languages, whose
vocabularies were constructed from the outlines of all knowledge then popular.
This has remained alive as a branch of philosophy, resurfacing in this century
in the work of Carnap and Reichenbach. The more modest idea of an international
language (useful perhaps in encouraging amity between the nations) possibly has
its roots in the polyglot Bibles and dictionaries of the 16th century but finds
its fullest expression in the invention of Esperanto in the last century. I
would argue that Esperanto represents a reaction to the romantic nationalism of
the late 1700s and early 1800s, with the revolutions of 1848 representing a
sort of modern-day equivalent to the destruction of the Tower of Babel;
Esperanto will provide the cultural unity of Europe lost with the creation of
the Dual Monarchy, and so on. (A very odd version of this is reflected in
polyglot telegraphic codes, such as the "Code International Lugagne" of 1914
and these gems from my bibliography of telegraph code books:

Author: Magli, Gaetano
Year:   1950
Title:  Antibabele; ``Lingua nuova: mondo nuovo.''
Pub:    Bologna, C. Zufli
Desc:   xxxv, 99 p. 18 cm.
Note:   At head of title: Gaj Magli.
        Earlier edition (Roma, 1945) has title: Vocabolario cifrato.
        ``This work should be considered as the first essay of an
        `International Dictionary in Cipher' after the Magli System,
        now published in two pocket editions ... being ... a cipher
        code of 3000 Italian, French, English, German and
        'Antibabele' words (15,000 in all) each ... being given the
        corresponding translation into the other languages.''--
        Foreword, p. xxxiv.

Author: Magli, Gaetano
Year:   1952
Title:  Antibabele ``la vera lingua universale.''
Pub:    Roma, Tip. A. G. I.
Desc:   47 p. 24 cm.

but that is pretty far afield.)


So.  If the VMS is written in a Wilkins/Dalgarno style invented philosophical
language, it would be very suprising.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

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  From Denis Mardle

 The detailed table, as promised in part 1, is given below.
The counts for each page and paragraph are given as lines,
D,ID,IID,IIID ( Currier ) with totals at the right.

f103r
  4  3  1  4  3  2  3  3  3  3  3  2  2  3  3  2  3  4  3  54
  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0   2
  3  3  1  7  5  1  6  1  6  3  0  0  4  2  0  0  0  4  0  46
  0  0  0  4  1  1  3  1  0  1  6  1  0  0  1  1  2  3  2  27
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
f103v
  4  4  3  2  3  3  1  6  3  3  4  2  4  4  46
  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  3  0  0  0  0  0  0   4
  2  3  2  2  4  1  3  7  0  2  2  1  4  7  40
  2  5  2  0  2  3  0  3  4  2  4  0  2  2  31
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
f104r
  4  5  2  4  3  3  5  3  4  2  3  4  3  45
  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
  1  5  0  2  1  1  2  0  2  0  0  1  3  18
  5  4  0  6  0  4  5  7  7  5  6  6  8  63
  2  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0   3
f104v
  5  2  4  3  4  3  5  2  3  3  2  4  4  44
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  2  2  1  1  3  1  1  0  0  5  1  6  3  26
  9  0  6  5  3  2 11  4  5  4  3  3  4  59
  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0   2
f105r
  5  4  4  3  7  2  2  3  4  3  37
  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0   1
  8  3  4  4 15  2  0  4  4  3  47
  0  2  1  0  0  1  0  1  1  0   6
f105v
  4  3  6  4  2  3  2  4  3  7  38
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  0  2   4
  8  5  9 12  5  7  5  6  8 18  83
  0  0  2  2  0  0  1  0  0  0   5
f106r
  3  4  2  3  2  3  4  2  3  5  2  2  2  4  6  47
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  0  0  1  1  0  4  2  1  3  3  1  1  0  0  7  24
  0  4  1  4  5  4  8  0  3 12  2  2  3  8  9  65
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0   1
f106v
  4  4  2  4  3  2  2  4  2  4  2  3  3  2  6  47
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  5  4  2  1  1  2  1  2  1  1  0  0  0  0  4  24
  5  9  3  5  1  3  3  5  1  7  3  5  3  3  9  65
  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
f107r
  3  4  5  3  2  3  3  3  3  4  4  4  3  3  4  51
  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
  3  3  3  2  0  0  1  2  0  2  2  4  2  1  6  31
  4  5  9  8  3  5  8  3  6  9  8  6  6  8  5  93
  0  0  0  0  0  0  2  1  0  1  0  0  0  0  0   4
f107v
  4  3  3  5  4  3  2  4  3  3  2  4  2  2  5  49
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  5  2  3  5  2  1  3  3  1  3  2  4  3  0  6  43
  8  7  6  9 11  5  2  4  5  9  2 10  0  1  6  85
  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
f108r
  4  3  3  3  3  4  3  5  2  4  2  2  2  4  3  3  50
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
  0  0  1  3  3  2  2  3  0  1  0  0  1  3  2  1  22
  2  2  4  8  4  4  2  6  2  0  0  0  2  1  1  1  39
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
f108v
  4  2  5  3  5  3  3  4  3  3  3  3  3  3  2  4  53
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
  2  2  4  1  1  3  1  2  4  2  5  4  2  3  1  2  39
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
f111r
  5  2  2  3  4  3  3  3  3  3  2  2  3  5  4  3  4  54
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  1  1  3  2  3  0  4  4  2  2  2  3  4  5  4  4  6  50
  4  2  2  4  4  3  2  2  4  2  0  1  1  4  1  1  8  45
  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
f111v
  3  2  2  2  3  3  2  2  4  2  3  2  1  2  3  2  6  3  4  51
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  4  0  0  0  0  0   5
  5  0  3  3  6  7  6  7 14  3  5  8  5  4  7  3  9  8 10 113
  0  2  4  0  4  5  3  4  4  1  0  2  0  0  2  1  4  1  4  41
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1   1
f112r
  4  6  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  3  4  45
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  2  2  1  2  1  2  1  2  2  1  2  1  19
  5  2  3  2  5  2  2  1  1  2  2  4  31
  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  0  0  1  0   3
f112v
  6  4  4  5  3  2  2  3  2  4  3  3  3  3  47
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0   1
  2  2  4  5  4  3  0  3  0  1  3  3  2  2  34
  5  6  7  7  4  3  2  3  2  6  5  4  1  4  59
  2  2  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  1   7
f113r
  3  4  2  3  3  4  2  3  2  3  4  3  2  3  3  3  4  51
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  1  2  0  1  0  1  2  0  0  2  4  2  0  2  0  1  3  21
  2  8  5  6  1  6  1  4  2  6  6  4  4  4  3  6  7  75
  0  0  0  0  2  1  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   4
f113v
  3  3  3  3  5  3  4  3  5  3  2  4  3  2  3  49
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  2  1  0  0  2  0  2  0  1  2  0  4  2  1  3  20
  3  4  4  2 11  5 10  4  8  6  4  6  8  2  6  83
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  4  0  0  1  0  0  0   5
f114r
  3  4  3  3  5  3  2  4  4  3  4  3  4  45
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  0  1  0  0  3  0  2  0  5  2  3  2  4  22
  3 11  7  3  7  5  4  9  7 11  8  7  8  90
  0  1  0  1  0  1  0  0  1  1  1  1  0   7
f114v
  5  2  3  3  4  2  3  3  3  4  3  6  41
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  8  0  3  3  1  1  2  1  1  2  0  2  24
  2  3  7  5  5  3  4  6  4  7  6 13  65
  0  1  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1   3
f115r
  3  4  2  3  6  3  4  3  6  2  3  2  4  45
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0   1
  1  4  1  3  6  1  1  1  0  2  1  1  4  26
  0  0  2  4  4  2  2  1 10  2  4  1  2  34
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  0  0  0  0   2
f115v
  5  2  3  2  5  3  3  5  2  3  3  4  5  45
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
  4  2  2  0  7  5  3  5  0  2  2  5  1  38
  4  3  3  2  1  2  2  2  1  1  2  2  3  28
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  2  0   2
f116r
  3  3  3  3  2  3  3  3  3  4  30      15  5  20
  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  1   2       3  3   6
  6  4  5  7  5  2  7  8  5  5  54      31  8  39
  0  2  0  3  0  1  2  0  1  4  13       8  0   8
  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1       0  0   0

 I hope someone finds these useful 

Denis

         

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 13:05:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:59:55 -0500 (EST)
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <C1256555.002B4F6A.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
	(rzandber@esoc.esa.de)
Subject: Re: Dee's Hieroglyphick book and seeing the Voynich first hand
Status: OR


> This sounds as if it was recently. So, while your memory is still
> fresh, may I ask a few things which were discussed earlier in the list:
> 
> - Did you see the colours of the zodiac illustrations?
>   E.g. if the tauri were grey/white and brownish respectively.

I glanced at them so briefly that I can't say.

> - What can you say about the colours used in the 6-ring foldout?

As far as I can recall, the only coloration was blue, apparently to
indicate water flowing around/between various parts of the diagram.

> - Can you confirm Jim's earlier observation that the
>   A and B pages tend to be of different thickness?

No, unfortunately -- I was very focused on the foldout, and didn't have
time to look at much else.

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 13:05:08 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: RE: Recipes (D,L,n) statistics
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:02:02 -0000
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Rene says
>>>
 Please note that in the recipes section there is
 a singificant error in the FSG transcription.
 Even though in the FSG file (which presumably you
 used) the -AIID ending (Currier AM) occurs with the
 expected frequency, many of these are actually
 -AID (Currier AN). Please verify yourself (the
 Yale copy being far more easy to use in this
 section than Petersen, but both should bear this out).
<<<

No - I used the Yale copy-flo , and I noted some 
interesting weirdoes that I missed earlier - I
intend to write these up soon.

Part 2 is in the post

Denis
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 13:11:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:04:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Philosophical Languages & intro
In-Reply-To: <9711261228.ZM21632@research.att.com>
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On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Jim Reeds wrote:

> 
> I think the fad for philosophical languages had to occur after the 17th century
> fad for logic. Without Peter Ramus, Descartes, Pascal, and Leibnitz convincing
> the world that there was more to logic than the classification of syllogisms
> into types, there would never have been a desire to formulate a new language
> whose structure matched the principles of logic.

It would be anachronistic in those terms -- but Lull (1235-1316) is 
considerably earlier.  Although his notation was not exactly logical, it
was an effort of a similar sort.  Speculation on language, alphabets,
notation, and combinations of letters to produce an array of meanings and
things considerably predates Lull, for that matter.

Still, if the VMS were an exercise in alphabetical permutations, it would
(probably) look quite different.

I am intrigued by, but skeptical of, the artificial language hypotheses.

By way of a brief introduction:

I have been on the list for a long time, and am generally quite inactive, 
since I have little to say about the cryptologic or even paleographic
issues, and since I do not have much time to devote to actual work on 
the ms itself. I came to an interest in the VMS partly through an
interest in things like the _Codex Seraphinianus_ (and in calligraphy and 
book design), and partly through an interest in the history of science
(including the history of artificial language projects). I can no longer
remember where I first heard of the VMS, but I do not think it was Kahn.
It may in fact have been in some discussion of the CS.  

Despite my e-mail address, I am not a student or professor:  I work in a
small administrative office, evaluating research proposals.

I find the "written natural language" hypotheses among the most
persuasive; the artificial language hypotheses among the most intriguing;
the fraud/hoax hypotheses at least pretty plausible; the madness/obsession
hypothese pretty implausible; and the cryptographic hypotheses among the
most variable, ranging from plausible enough to quite implausible.

Given the amount of work that has been put into it so far from the purely
computational point of view, I suspect that any breakthroughs are likely
to come not from an exclusively computational focus, but from a
combination of that and a "top down" or "traffic analysis" approach.

Purely from a bibliophilic point of view, I would love to see a really
good facsimile of the VMS available.  Failing that, a really good set of
digitized color images on CD-ROM would be pretty neat too.

Richard Brzustowicz
brz@u.washington.edu


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 13:41:09 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:38:06 -0500
In-Reply-To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
        "Re: Artificial Languages" (Nov 26,  8:57am)
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To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de, voynich@rand.org
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Status: OR

On Nov 26,  8:57am, rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> Subject: Re: Artificial Languages
>
> Dear all,
>
> Jim  Reeds wrote:
>
> > I think the idea of a deliberately constructed "logical" or
> > "universal" language first arises in the mid 1600s, and is
> > thus too late for a late 1400's or even Rudofine- era date
> > for the VMS.
>
> These two centuries are a significant amount of time, but
> this is not 'hard evidence'.
> Similarly, my argument that someone who designed an
> artificial language and wanted to show it in a long text
> would not pick a totally unknown work to do it, is not
> 'hard evidence' (note what Dalgarno used for a sample).
> In fact Jim's argument is stronger.
>
>
> Cheers, Rene
>
>-- End of excerpt from rzandber@esoc.esa.de

I am glad to see Artificial Language hypothesis well defended as
Adam and Eric just did. I have always favored that possibility and
on the very same grounds they stress. I have to disagree with
Jim in that the first known example of an deliberately constructed
artificial language is Hildegaard's "Lingua Ignota" which dates from
the 12h century. Admittedly the whole purpose of construction evolved
from this example to the days of Dalgarno or John Wilkins but the "logical"
midpoint lies with Ramon Llull and his Ars Magna whose school is fairly
contemporary with and quite influential in the Rudolfine era. Both Kircher
and Leibnitz were Llullists for a stretch, at least.  It is not unthinkable
that Kircher's interest in the VM might have been prompted by a presummable
Llullist origin. Take a look at the gaudy baroque Leipzig edition of Llull's
works and you will see what I mean...

Also I have to disagree with Jorge. If this iis ndeed the case cryptology may
be at a loss but only because you can only hope to decypher what is cyphered
to begin with. Artificial languages may be ameanable to reconstruction by
some kind of "logical reverse engineering" in the manner suggested in the
Borges story quoted by Eric. The common feature of these early logical
languages is that word construction mirrors a binary tree of genus-species
subrelation in the Aristotelian fashion. I don't think it would take much
to try out something of this sort as a first attempt at semantic analysis...


-Joao Leao

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From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 15:05:07 1997
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    > [Gabriel:] Could it be possible to have a construct like:
    > "daiin.daiin" or even "daiin.daiin.daiin" ?

I don't know.  Over the past week I have doubled my Chinese
vocabulary, and now I know three words. 8-)

I believe that a Chinese syllabe often has several possible meanings.
(At least, that is generally the case for Japanese monosyllabic roots
that were borrowed from the Chinese).  So it may well be possible to
have "de de" or even "de de de", where the one of the "de"s is not a
particle.

But of course the equation of "daiin" with Chinese "de" is just a
really wild guess.

The only part of the argument that could be taken seriously is the
fact that "daiin" and "de" are the most common words in my Voynichese
and Chinese samples, respectively. However:

  The structural evidence for Voynichese=Chinese also fits any
  other language of the same family, such as Vietnamese, Tibetan,
  etc.
  
  Even if Voynichese is Chinese, it could be any of the Chinese
  dialects (which are as different from each other as French from
  Italian, it seems).
     
  Even if Voynichese is Beijing Chinese, it is probably the old
  literary language, which was very different from the vernacular,
  even in the 1500s.
  
In any case, I have no evidence whatsoever that the most common word in those
languages is still the "genitive" particle ("'s" of English).

But my real blunder, which I didn't realize until now, is that my
Chinese sample is *very* inadequate.  The text I used comes from a
second-year Chinese course reader --- which has been heavily
simplified and sanitized, and hence is worthless for statistical
purposes.

So "de" may not be the most common Chinese word after all, not
even in Beijing Chinese.

We definitely need expert opinion.  A fancy beach resort in Bali must
have a fax machine, I suppose? 8-)

    > [Robert Firth:] I agree that the evidence he offers is very
    > strong, not least because the same particle, with the same
    > function, occurs in Italian, Occitan, French, and "latino sine
    > flexione".
    
Good point 8-) "De" means "of" in Spanish and Portuguese, too; I don't
know about Rumanian.  (It is true that Romance "de" and Chinese "de"
work in opposite directions, but that is no reason to assume they are
not related, right? 8-)
     
--stolfi


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From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Dalgarno's artificial language - sample
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Status: OR

As promised here is a sample of Dalgarno's artificial philosophical language
which I copied out today from his 'Ars Signorum', London 1651. I hope that
some of the regulars on the Voynich group can apply their statistical
methods to this text. I do not understand the particular statistics which
have been previously used on the Voynich and other texts, but I hope there
may be a method that detects a difference between ciphered text and texts
written in this kind of artificial language.
This text is the First Book of Genesis in Dalgarno's system.

21 characters are used abdefghiklmnoprstuv 

[note  is Greek eta   is Greek upsilon]

This first version is an exact copy of the original, including the
punctuation and capitalisation

Adam McLean

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

Dan semu, Sava samesa Nam tn Nom.
Tn nom avesa sof-shana tn draga, tn gromu avesa ben mem sf bafu: tn v
sf Sava damesa ben mem sf nimmi.
Tn Sava tinesa, gomu aveso: tn gomu avesa.
Tn Sava msesa gomu sima: tn Sava dosesa gomu dos gromu.
Tn Sava tonesa gomu Dan-gomu, tn tonesa gromu Dan-gromu: tn shem-gomu tn
sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vasa.
Tn Sava tinesa, dad-dreku aveso bred brepu sf nimmi: tn doseso nimmi dos
nimmi.
Tn Sava samesa dad-dreku, tn dosesa nimmi bren dad-dreku dos nimmi ben
dad-dreku: tn lel-ss avesa.
Tn Sava tonesa dad-dreku, Nam: tn shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vsa.
Tn Sava tinesa, nimmi bren nam dekoso bred dadu suma, tn granar msoso:
tn lel-ss avesa.
Tn Sava tonesa granar Nom, tn tonesa deku sf nimmi, Issi; tn Sava msesa
lolar sima.
Tn Sava tinesa, nom gpeso nab, neibeid gune rug, tn rag-sneig gune rag
sos sugu lla, rug sef lul tim bred ll ben nom: tn lel-ss avesa.
Tn nom gunesa nab, neibeid gune rug sos suga lla: tn sneig gune rag, rug,
sf lul tim bred ll, sos sugu lla: tn Sava msese lolar sima.
Tn shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vesa.
Tn Sava tinesa, gommu aveso bred dad-dreku sf Nam sham doses dan-gomu dos
dan-gromu: tn lelli aveso sas dannu, tn dan-vessi, tn dan-vussi.
Tn lelli aveso sas gommu bred dad-dreku sf nam, sham gomes ben nom: tn
lel-fs avesa.
Tn Sava samesa v gommu sma, gomu sna sham sudes dan-gomu, tn gomu
shna sham sudes dan-gromu: tn samesa assi.
Tn Sava dadesa lelli bred dad-dreku sf nam sham gomes ben nom.
Tn sham sudes dan-gomu, tn dan-gromu, tn doses gomu dos gromu : tn
Sava msesa lolar sima.
Tn shem-gomu, tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vosa.
Tn Sava tinesa, nimmi, sm-guneso neit, tn neip pme bred dad-dreku sf
nam ben nom.
Tn Sava samesa ntti sma, tn neipteik sun-suma pne, lul nimmi sm-gunesa
sos sugu llla tn neip sun-suma spiso sos sugu lla : tn Sava msesa lolar
sima.
Tn Sava tufesa lelli tine, guneso tn sus-snoso, tn dageso nimmi sf issi
tn neippi sus-snoso ben nom.
Tn shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vsa.
Tn Sava tinesa, nom guneso sneikki tn neikki sos suga llla : tn lelss
avesa.
Tn Sava samesa neikki tn sneikki sos sugu lulla : tn Sava msesa lolar sima.
Tn Sava tinesa, lalli sameso Uv sos sagu lalla sos slnu lalla : tn lelli
kameso neitti sf is, tn neippi sf nem, tn neikki, tn nom suma, tn
sneik sunsuma pfe drd nom.
Tn Sava samesa uv sos sagu lla, lelil samesa lelil sos sagu sf Sava,
lelil samesa lelilli pagel tn pragel.
Tn Sava tufesa lelilli tn tinesa shod lelilli, guneso, tn sus-snoso, tn
dageso nom tn kameso lela, tn kameso neitti sf is, tn neippi sf nem tn
neikki tn sneikki sf nom.
Tn Sava tinesa, puf, lal spbesa shod llli neibeid suma gune rug, lul tim
ben mem sf nom suma tn sneig suma lul gunesi rag tn rug, llli sgesu
lella st fleim.
Tn lal spbesa, shod neikki suma, tn neippi suma tn sneikki suma, neibeid
groda suma st fleim : tn lel-ss avesa.
Tn Sava msesa avvi suna lul sames : tn puf, avesa sm-sima : tn
shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vusa.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

The second version is all in lower case with the punctuation characters
removed. Note that the hyphen appears within certain words and I have left
these, though I have removed the hyphens in the few cases where a word is
broken at the end of a line.


21 characters used abdefghiklmnoprstuv 

[note  is greek eta   is greek upsilon]



dan semu sava samesa nam tn nom
tn nom avesa sof-shana tn draga tn gromu avesa ben mem sf bafu tn v
sf sava damesa ben mem sf nimmi
tn sava tinesa gomu aveso tn gomu avesa
tn sava msesa gomu sima tn sava dosesa gomu dos gromu
tn sava tonesa gomu dan-gomu tn tonesa gromu dan-gromu tn shem-gomu tn
sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vasa
tn sava tinesa dad-dreku aveso bred brepu sf nimmi tn doseso nimmi dos nimmi
tn sava samesa dad-dreku tn dosesa nimmi bren dad-dreku dos nimmi ben
dad-dreku tn lel-ss avesa
tn sava tonesa dad-dreku nam tn shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vsa
tn sava tinesa nimmi bren nam dekoso bred dadu suma tn granar msoso tn
lel-ss avesa
tn sava tonesa granar nom tn tonesa deku sf nimmi issi tn sava msesa
lolar sima
tn sava tinesa nom gpeso nab neibeid gune rug tn rag-sneig gune rag sos
sugu lla rug sef lul tim bred ll ben nom tn lel-ss avesa
tn nom gunesa nab neibeid gune rug sos suga lla tn sneig gune rag rug sf
lul tim bred ll sos sugu lla tn sava msese lolar sima
tn shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vesa
tn sava tinesa gommu aveso bred dad-dreku sf nam sham doses dan-gomu dos
dan-gromu tn lelli aveso sas dannu tn dan-vessi tn dan-vussi
tn lelli aveso sas gommu bred dad-dreku sf nam sham gomes ben nom tn
lel-fs avesa
tn sava samesa v gommu sma gomu sna sham sudes dan-gomu tn gomu shna
sham sudes dan-gromu tn samesa assi
tn sava dadesa lelli bred dad-dreku sf nam sham gomes ben nom
tn sham sudes dan-gomu tn dan-gromu tn doses gomu dos gromu  tn sava
msesa lolar sima
tn shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vosa
tn sava tinesa nimmi sm-guneso neit tn neip pme bred dad-dreku sf nam
ben nom
tn sava samesa ntti sma tn neipteik sun-suma pne lul nimmi sm-gunesa
sos sugu llla tn neip sun-suma spiso sos sugu lla  tn sava msesa lolar sima
tn sava tufesa lelli tine guneso tn sus-snoso tn dageso nimmi sf issi
tn neippi sus-snoso ben nom
tn shem-gomu tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vsa
tn sava tinesa nom guneso sneikki tn neikki sos suga llla  tn lelss avesa
tn sava samesa neikki tn sneikki sos sugu lulla  tn sava msesa lolar sima
tn sava tinesa lalli sameso uv sos sagu lalla sos slnu lalla  tn lelli
kameso neitti sf is tn neippi sf nem tn neikki tn nom suma tn sneik
sunsuma pfe drd nom
tn sava samesa uv sos sagu lla lelil samesa lelil sos sagu sf sava lelil
samesa lelilli pagel tn pragel
tn sava tufesa lelilli tn tinesa shod lelilli guneso tn sus-snoso tn
dageso nom tn kameso lela tn kameso neitti sf is tn neippi sf nem tn
neikki tn sneikki sf nom
tn sava tinesa puf lal spbesa shod llli neibeid suma gune rug lul tim ben
mem sf nom suma tn sneig suma lul gunesi rag tn rug llli sgesu lella
st fleim
tn lal spbesa shod neikki suma tn neippi suma tn sneikki suma neibeid
groda suma st fleim  tn lel-ss avesa
tn sava msesa avvi suna lul sames  tn puf avesa sm-sima  tn shem-gomu
tn sem-gomu avesa dan-ve vusa
----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:02:14 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Artificial languages
Status: OR

Jim Reeds wrote

>I think the idea of a deliberately constructed "logical" or "universal"
language
>first arises in the mid 1600s, and is thus too late for a late 1400's or
even Rudofine-
>era date for the VMS.

I discovered today from Asbach-Schnitker's 'Foundations of Semiotics' Vol 6
that the famous Abbess Hildegard of Bingen devised, in the 12th century, a
'lingua ignota' in which she seems to have created words though a similar
method to Dalgarno, using a set of 15 classes and constructing words in such
a way that each additional letter added to the end of the word further
restricts and makes concrete the idea. Thus for example she constructs a
series of words with the prefix 'luz' - luzeia, luzpomphia, luzerealz,
luziliet, luziminispier.

Her manuscripts containing this philosophical language still survive in
Weisbaden and Berlin, and Trithemius also made in 1487 a copy of her
manuscripts (which is now in the British Library). Trithemius explicitly
refers to Hildegard in the introductory part of his 'Polygraphia' published
in 1518.

So knowledge of this method could have been available to the author of the
Voynich manuscript in the late 15th century and early 16th century.

Adam McLean
----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 18:59:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:52:44 -0500
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Status: OR

Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > [Gabriel:] Could it be possible to have a construct like:
>     > "daiin.daiin" or even "daiin.daiin.daiin" ?
>
> I don't know.  Over the past week I have doubled my Chinese
> vocabulary, and now I know three words. 8-)
>
> I believe that a Chinese syllabe often has several possible meanings.
> (At least, that is generally the case for Japanese monosyllabic roots
> that were borrowed from the Chinese).  So it may well be possible to
> have "de de" or even "de de de", where the one of the "de"s is not a
> particle.

        Since we presently lack Jacques in-depth knowledge of the Chinese
language, I'll throwmyself into this discussion as a budding student of the
language...

        The 'de' used in your previous context representing possession is
toneless.  In my small dictionary of 7000 words there are two other
toneless 'de' characters that are used as structural particles (I couldn't
find any examples of them in any text I have).  However, I'd venture to say
that this particular 'de' does not repeat.  At least in any text that I
have seen this 'de' always separates the possessor from his object  -- even
in sentences like ..."Today's rate is 1:1.35" which would be 'pinyinned'
(nice anglais, eh?) as "Jin1tian de dui4huan4lu4 shi yi1 bi3 yi1 dianr3
san1 wu3".

>   Even if Voynichese is Chinese, it could be any of the Chinese
>   dialects (which are as different from each other as French from
>   Italian, it seems).
>

        Now, I don't know how to speak a single word in any dialect other
than Beijing,  (which might in itself mean that I do speak some words in
other dialects). Anyway, I believe that the characters are the same
regardless of dialect, so I think that no matter how it is pronounced, the
character you know as 'de', would carry the same meaning throughout all of
China. (Now for a repeat of my disclaimer.... I know a little bit about
Chinese (about 200 words at present - max!)).

Zai4jian4!

                    John.


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 19:05:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:00:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The Voynichese-English Dictionary, Volume II
In-Reply-To: <199711261954.RAA18819@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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> 
> I believe that a Chinese syllabe often has several possible meanings.
> (At least, that is generally the case for Japanese monosyllabic roots
> that were borrowed from the Chinese).  So it may well be possible to
> have "de de" or even "de de de", where the one of the "de"s is not a
> particle.

There are also supposedly three "de" particles (in Mandarin), one strictly
possessive, one adverbial, and one subordinative.  That is, they are
supposed to be written with three different characters; they are generally
pronounced the same way, and people do get confused about which is which.

It would be fairly unnatural (though not impossible) to nest "de"s in
Mandarin -- but it would be fairly natural for such nesting to occur in
various kinds of logical notation, would it not?

>   The structural evidence for Voynichese=Chinese also fits any
>   other language of the same family, such as Vietnamese, Tibetan,
>   etc.

The mind boggles ...

>      
>   Even if Voynichese is Beijing Chinese, it is probably the old
>   literary language, which was very different from the vernacular,
>   even in the 1500s.

On the other hand, the "high" Chinese writing system is only one of
several; some are more dialect-specific.  Unfortunately, the very elastic
limits of plausibility are here being tested to destruction, delightful
though the notions are.

>     
> Good point 8-) "De" means "of" in Spanish and Portuguese, too; I don't
> know about Rumanian.  (It is true that Romance "de" and Chinese "de"
> work in opposite directions, but that is no reason to assume they are
> not related, right? 8-)

Actually, the particle "de" was introduced into all human tongues by a
trade delegation from Venus some 13,000 years ago.  The relative level of
sophistication of various human cultures can be measured by the extent to
which the languages involved have retained this sound.


R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Nov 26 19:35:10 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:30:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: The Voynichese-English Dictionary, Volume II
In-Reply-To: <347CB64A.CD8AFDD5@fox.nstn.ca>
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On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, John Grove wrote:

> Anyway, I believe that the characters are the same
> regardless of dialect, so I think that no matter how it is pronounced, the
> character you know as 'de', would carry the same meaning throughout all of
> China. (Now for a repeat of my disclaimer.... I know a little bit about
> Chinese (about 200 words at present - max!)).

It's more complicated than that:  many common structural words are
different (as structural features are different) from dialect to dialect.
I can't remember the character used to represent the "e" in Taiwanese, but
I'm pretty sure it's not the one used to represent possessive "de" or
subordinative "de" in Mandarin.

If you can find a copy

Author:       Chiang, William Wei.
Title:        "We two know the script ; we have become good friends" :
              linguistic and social aspects of the women's script literacy
              in
              southern Hunan, China / William W. Chiang.
Pub. Info.:   Lanham, Md. : University Press of America, c1995.
Phy Descript: xviii, 318 p. : ill., maps ; 22 cm.
Notes:        Originally presented as the author's thesis (Doctoral-Yale).
              Includes bibliographical references ([305]-314) and index

has an interesting in-passing discussion of the "non-high" writing
traditions of China.


R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 27 03:56:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:47:51 +0200
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Jim Reeds wrote

>> I think the idea of a deliberately constructed "logical" or
>> "universal" language first arises in the mid 1600s, and
>> is thus too late for a late 1400's or even Rudofine-
>> era date for the VMS.

And Adam  McLean:

> Hildegard of Bingen devised, in the 12th century, a 'lingua
> ignota' in which she seems to have created words though a similar
> method to Dalgarno, using a set of 15 classes and constructing
> words in such a way that each additional letter added to the end > of the
word further restricts and makes concrete the idea.

This has to be a key question:
is there a fundamental difference between Hildegarde's
approach and the ideas Friedman and Tiltman had? They
concentrated on Dalgarno and Wilkins and it would be
a curious oversight, to say the least, if Hildegarde's
system is in fact similar.
Note that W.Manders' article at
http://www.geocities.com//Athens/5383/ignota.html
would indicate that Hildegarde's system was in fact *not*
similar to Dalgarno's (at least to the me but I'm no
expert). But could it have inspired the VMs writer???

Anyway, many thanks for the sample of Dalgarno's
text. I'm not too worried about frequency distributions and
entropies, but more about things like full word repeats,
word-initial vs medial vs final distribution and perhaps
single-character repeats.

As always curious,
      Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 27 12:17:07 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Recipes (D,L,n) statistics
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:42:22 -0000
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  From Denis Mardle

Jorge Stolfi says

>Yum, numbers! 

>Here are Denis's ID statistics again, rearranged by a 
>few iterations of my new "sort-distr" toy, I mean tool:
 After my table he says
>Here is the corresponding distance matrix. ...

 We could refine the distance matrix if we can use more
statistics such as number of paragraphs, words/symbols per
line/paragraph or other endings, or for that matter the
initial,medial,final statistics.  Even weirdoes and picnic
table counts would help ( I'm looking at the last two
and could then look at other finals )

 Jorge -  How many dimensions will your 'tool' handle ?
Can you produce Dendrograms ?   Will it handle correlated
variables ?  I won't ask if it produces proper probability
significance levels since even Professional Statisticians
go hot under the collar when I ask that question !!

For those of you who like numbers and now have my detailed
tables note the sequence of ID counts on f112r -
( per paragraph ) 2,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1  and even more
remarkable IID on f106v -
 5,9,3,5,1,3,3,5,1,7,3,5,3,3,9  all odd numbers and I
assure you I've only just noticed this one !!

Best wishes     Denis 


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 27 12:56:08 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Correctio to Recipes (D,L,n) statistics part 2
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:53:15 -0000
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  From Denis Mardle

Jorge Stolfi points out that line four of f108v is missing

Sorry all

Here is the correct set of counts

f108v
  4  2  5  3  5  3  3  4  3  3  3  3  3  3  2  4  53
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   1
  2  2  4  1  1  3  1  2  4  2  5  4  2  3  1  2  39
  4  2  4  5  2  7  9  6  2  1  1  4  0  1  2  3  53
  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0   0
f111r

Denis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Nov 27 14:44:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:32:36 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Recipes (D,L,n) statistics
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    > Jorge - How many dimensions will your 'tool' handle ?  Will it
    > handle correlated variables ?

The number of variables is not a problem; the cost for N items and V
variables is proprtional to N * V^2, and the memory used is
proportional to N * (N+V).  I have used it on N=300 labels and V=80
variables; it takes a couple of seconds on an ordinary workstation. 

Correlated variables are good, actually.  The program normalizes each input
vector to probability distribution, which it views as a point of 
(V-1)-dimensional space. The program then tries (emphasis
on "tries") to find a short path that connects those points.  

Finding the absolutely shortest path is an intractable problem, so the
program uses a strategy that gives only a "locally good" path but is
rasonably fast (time proportional to N^2).

If the points are randomly scattered in two or more dimensions, this
strategy will not work very well --- indeed, the very idea of sorting
the items in a linear order is rather futile in that case.  The program
works best when most of the points lie in two or more compact clusters
or in elongated, roughly one-dimensional clouds. In particular, if
all variables are highly correlated, the program should output the
items approximately sorted by their "principal component".

However, if you already know that two variables are highly correlated,
or that their sum is more significant than their individual values,
it is better to replace them by their sum, since that will remove
one "noise" dimension.  

For instance, if we are sorting pages by their letter counts,
and we suspect that the t/k distinction has no semantic value,
we should consider using a single t+k count than two separate 
counts.

    > Can you produce Dendrograms ? 
    
Not yet, but I do feel the need, and I plan to add that 
option.  Perhaps next week. (This week is end-of-semester,
I have a pile of exams to grade...)

    > I won't ask if it produces proper probability significance
    > levels since even Professional Statisticians go hot under the
    > collar when I ask that question !!

Thanks for not asking... 8-)

    > For those of you who like numbers and now have my detailed
    > tables note the sequence of ID counts on f112r -
    > ( per paragraph ) 2,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1  and even more
    > remarkable IID on f106v -
    >  5,9,3,5,1,3,3,5,1,7,3,5,3,3,9  all odd numbers and I
    > assure you I've only just noticed this one !!

Weird... We should look at the text and see whether
the "oddity" is due to some specific word pattern. 

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 29 11:20:07 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: f106v plus rules
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:58:08 -0000
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>From Denis Mardle

On 27 November 1997 16:42  I said

>For those of you who like numbers and now have my detailed
>tables note the sequence of ID counts on f112r -
>( per paragraph ) 2,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1  and even more
>remarkable IID on f106v -
> 5,9,3,5,1,3,3,5,1,7,3,5,3,3,9  all odd numbers and I
>assure you I've only just noticed this one !!

I need to clarify two of the above numbers for IID in f106v.
Paragraph 5, line 2, word 3 has a tail from a final 9 on the line
above over the D.  As a result the symbol is squashed up and seems
more like an R so I did'nt count it.   On a second look it does 
seem to be a D so the count should be 2 not 1.
On Para 10,line 3,word 1 the D starts part way up the I so looks a
bit like an R, but I stick to it being a D so count of 7 stands.

In the recipes section I note quite a variability in the D symbol,
even locally.  The clean wide curve from the base of the I
going to twice the height of the I is no problem, but often the
wide curve gets lower but is still a D but when it gets to the
extreme ( in small cramped spaces ) the symbol looks like
an O with a gap at the top but still a straight left side.
 There are some other slight variants which could come in the
weirdo category after A or AI etc.  For instance I have seen
8's which have a (slanted like the I ) lower left side.  When
they don't join at the bottom right and go lower they are
(Currier) J's

Now to one or two rules
A)  Two similar symbols with sections of the VMs having
     approximately  fixed ratios for the symbols are NOT
     the same symbol even though they may have
     similar sounds  as say  with the u in cut or curt.
    
So I believe eva k and t are NOT the same, similarly
with other pairs.

 B)  Handwriting changes quite significantly with age -
      mine certainly has.

So Languages A and B could well be from the same hand
if written 30 or 40 years apart.     So if there are plants or
herbs drawn and described in say 1470 they could have
been added to with new ( = New world ) ones in 1510.
That is why they might have been added after the
f85/86 fold-out.

A final thought for the day.  If the f85/86 nine rossettes
are in a sea ( or heaven ) of blue ( which shade ? ) as
Karl has observed,  maybe the labels on the blue are
names of rivers or seas.  I can now think in a new light.
For instance the middle 'island' looks like a herb garden
with all those pots as in the pharma section and the
bottom right 'island' or 'country' has what looks like a
nicely regular field of some kind ( ? vines )

B est wishes       Denis
     

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 29 13:50:08 1997
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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:43:54 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Index to the Voynich Manuscript?
Status: OR

Has anyone built an index to the Voynich Manuscript?

That is, devised a database of each unique word, with information on the
folios in which it occurs.

If no one has already done this, I will try to do it using the Gabriel
Landini interlinear version. 

We really need such a tool in order to discover just how words are formed -
to see if there are any clues to their meaning in the way in which the words
are constructed.

I cannot believe that no one has already done this!

Adam McLean

----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From reeds Sat Nov 29 14:24:39 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9711291424.ZM26412@research.att.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:24:39 -0500
In-Reply-To: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
        "Index to the Voynich Manuscript?" (Nov 29, 18:43)
References: <2.2.32.19971129184354.0070d808@pop.dial.pipex.com>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Help drafting a letter
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Status: OR

I am drafting a letter to a distinguished American paleographer who has
spent some time looking at the VMS.  I want to ask the right questions,
but not to overwhelm.  So far I have: what's your reaction to Toresella's
late 1400's dating, what do you say about the 2 hands, could it be a forgery
& what modern scientific tests would be appropriate, can you fill in any
of the ownership story between Marci in 1666 and Voynich in 19xx?

And then there is the plea for advice on how to get Yale to be nicer to us:
to digitize it photgraphs, to allow publication of transcriptions from
their photographs, etc.

Any other ideas about what I could put in?

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 29 15:47:07 1997
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From: descarte@arcana.co.uk
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Subject: Re: Index to the Voynich Manuscript?
To: alchemy@dial.pipex.com (Adam McLean)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 20:37:51 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971129184354.0070d808@pop.dial.pipex.com> from "Adam McLean" at Nov 29, 97 06:43:54 pm
X-Pants-Of-Infinity: Trousers, I'm wearing trousers!
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> That is, devised a database of each unique word, with information on the
> folios in which it occurs.

Yup. I have some old scripts for stuffing the VM into a database against
which you can run all sorts of SQL queries. I used it to track down some
inconsistencies in transliteration off some folios.

> Adam McLean

A.

-- 
Alligator Descartes      |   "The waves upon the water are like ripples in
descarte@arcana.co.uk    |    your mind."
http://www.arcana.co.uk  |         -- Martin Walkyier, ``Advent of Insanity''

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 29 16:11:08 1997
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From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9711291603.ZM510@research.att.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:03:40 -0500
In-Reply-To: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
        "Help drafting a letter" (Nov 29, 14:24)
References: <2.2.32.19971129184354.0070d808@pop.dial.pipex.com> 
	<9711291424.ZM26412@research.att.com>
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Status: OR

I just saw this web page advertising a reprint of Newbold's book, for sale
for 30 dollars.

	http://www.sacredscience.com/metaphys.htm

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 29 16:14:07 1997
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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:08:49 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Poems in the Voynich Manuscript
Status: OR

Has anyone noticed that folio 81r is in the form of verse?
Firstly the text appears to be laid out with left justified lines as is common
with verse.
There appear to be two stanzas of fifteen lines each beginning with the 
character which looks a bit like an embellished capital "P". Each stanza 
appears to be subdivided by a line also beginning with the capital "P"- 
the first into 8 + 7 lines and the second to 7 + 8 lines . What is most
interesting 
is that the lines appear to rhyme with various rhyming schemes.
Unfortunately I only have reproductrions of a few of the folios so I cannot
immediately follow up this.
Surely someone must have spotted this before? This folio is reproduced 
as page 9 in Braumbaugh's book.

Can anyone provide me with a photocopy of the original manuscript,
so I can search for further examples of verse, or other such features that 
might give us a clue to the language elements? If we find rhyming verse in
the Voynich this may have some startling consequences.

Adam McLean


-----------

Here is the verse from the 'C' transcription in Gabriel Landini's
interlinear transcription.

POETOG.4ODC8G.SOE.%PTC8G.OEPTC8G.OFS8G.OEG
8TCG.ESE.OETC8.4ODOE.TOE.OHAR.TC8G.ODG
4OHCG.ETCC2.OEDAE.OE.TC8G.ODAR.SC8G
8TC8G.4ODAN.OE.OE.THZG.GDCC8G.AE
4OE.TCOE.ODCCG.OE.OE.OE.AM.OE.OR.AN
%%2AR.OE.C2C2.OHCCG.SOR.4ODCCG.OE
8SCC2.ODAN.THZG.OHCG.ODAN

     %%PTC8G.4ODCCG.OHG.4OHCG.OHCCG.OEG
4OHCC2G.4OHC8G.4ODCC8G.TPZCG
TOE.8AN.OHC8G.TCCG.4OHAN.EG
OESCOE.OEDC8G.SCDZC8G.OEHC8G
GTC8G.HC8G.OE.SCC8G.4ODCCG.EOEG
8TOE.SC8G.4OHC8G.4OE.TC8G.TCHG%RG
4ODCTC8G.4OE%SCC8G.OR.AN.AROE.OCCC8G
2AN.OE.TCC8G.4ODCC8G.OHC8G



POET8G.4OPTOE.4ODOR.OEPTC8G.OPOE.OROIRG
GTCHZG.ODCC8G.SCG.4ODC8G.OE.%TC8AR
OSCC8G.SC8G.OE.SC8G.ODCC8G.ORAR
4ODC8G.SCC8G.TC8G.4OHCC8G.OE.AK
4OPTC8G.4OE.TC8G.4ODCCG.O8AM.RAN.8AEG
8SC8G.4ODAE.OEDCCG.OHCCG.OESCG.OHCG.EOE
4OHAE.TC8G.4OE.OE.8AM.OE.TC8AR.OE.OEG
TCG.ODAN.TSCDZG.2OM.TCG.ETCG

    PAR.O8G.SCPZG.TCOE.4OHAE%8AR.OHC8G.OEG
2OR.SC8G.4OE.%OHAN.ODAIR.ODAE.TC8G.8G
PTC8G.4ODCG.OHCOE.4OE.SCOR.SC8G.4HZ8G2
2OE.TC8G.4ODC8G.OEDC8G.8OE.4ODTC8G
4ODC28G.TC8G.4ODAR.TCG.HAM.OHCG.ETE
GSCC8G.SG.TCG.ETHZG.GHAR.OEDAM.OE
E.SC8G.4ODC8G.2OR.OEDAR.OE%DAM.OE%DS8G
2OE.SC8G.OE.ETC8G.SC8G.SG.OEDC8G.TC2.OR.OR.ORAIIIL



----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 29 16:53:07 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: Index to the Voynich Manuscript?
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:48:28 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971129184354.0070d808@pop.dial.pipex.com> from "Adam McLean" at Nov 29, 97 06:43:54 pm
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Status: OR

8am occ89 opam Adam McLean 4occam 9c89:
> 
> Has anyone built an index to the Voynich Manuscript?
> 
> That is, devised a database of each unique word, with information on the
> folios in which it occurs.
> 

Another interesting way to display this information is in a KWIC (Keyword
in Context) index. This lists each word (with location) together with the
two or three words that surround it on either side, like this:

          come, the Walrus   said    to talk of many things       <locn>
                             The     time has come, the Walrus    <locn>
        The time has come,   the     Walrus said, to talk of      <locn>
                       The   time    has come, the Walrus said    <locn>
    The time has come, the   Walrus  said, to talk of many things <locn>

If you alphabetize by the central word and then by the following phrase
similar patterns are easy to spot by eye.

Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu)


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Nov 29 22:20:07 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: About the section "recipes"
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	<9711260253.AA01891@pansy.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Status: OR


    > She "felt" that the [f77v] drawings could be interpreted as
    > describing the feminine reproductive system and the idea of
    > fertilization/pregnancy in some sort of allegorical way.  I
    > guess that this must have been already said by many others, but
    > I don't know whether this "theory" has been completely disproved
    > or not.
    
I believe that is still the most popular interpretation of f77v-top.

I myself think that the picture looks more like "kidneys and bladder"
than "uterus and ovaries".  The top tubes would be the renal arteries
(veins? I forgot already...), the bottom ones the ureters.

(In the "uterus" interpretation, two of the pipes presumably are the
Fallopian[1] tubes; but then what are the other two?)  

Or perhaps it is a picture of both systems together...

Taken literally, of course, the pictures show naked women playing with
water in some bizarre bathroom fixtures.  But I don't think this
"medieval Water World" interpretation can be defended.

Someone suggested that the "organs" are actually parts of plants, and
the "water" represents the (physiological,mystical,whatever) fluids
that run through them.  (But the water is flowing down --- surely the
author knew that sap flows up from the roots?)

    > Sometimes I think that it could be interesting to try and do
    > something with the images in order to get some clues as to the
    > text; I cannot believe that in *all* pages the drawings have
    > nothing to do with the text.

As far as I know, there is no reason to suppose the contrary.

--stolfi

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Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:14:28 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: An Index to the Voynich Manuscript
Status: OR

I spent some time this weekend constructing a database of all the words in
the Voynich manuscript. I imported the "F" (Friedman's) transcription from
the Gabriel Landini interlinear version into a database so that each word
was given a record in association with its folio and line reference. There
were 33312 words in this transcript. I then sorted the records and
consolidated the folio references together, so as to produce a database or
index of unique words. There were 8751 unique words.
I was surprised by the amount of noise in this transcription - there were so
many unread or ambiguous characters in the transcription. There were 6430
words which only appeared once in the transcription. If we assume that there
is a large likelihood that these singly appearing words may contain a high
number of wrongly read words then we find there remains 2321 words that
appear more than once in the transcription. This seems a fair vocabulary for
a language. 
There are 22 characters in the alphabet of this transcription, but only 16
of these are used to make the initial letter of a word - I, K, L, M, N and Z
do not appear as the first letter of a word. 
A number of words occur very frequently and I paste below a listing of the
100 most common words. This is rough data, but it does give us a profile of
the language of the Voynich manuscript. I will try to clean it up by
removing the artifical constructs and special symbols. Are there any
statistical tests that can be applied to this language to compare it with
existing languages? Can anyone help me with the statistics - this is
something in which I have no abilities?

Is there a better transcription I can use? If so I can import this into my
programmable database and then try and discover elements of the language -
whether certain letter combinations never occur, what endings are most
common, or do never occur, etc. Only by doing this can we understand how the
language was formed. Is the 'Voynich.now' transcription the most accurate?
Should I use this to build up a word index? It seems incomplete with many
missing folios.

Surely all this kind of work has already been done. I don't want to waste
time going over ground that has already been well ploughed - but I have not
seen many discussions of the way in which the language is structured.

Adam McLean

------------------------------------

Unique words in the order of most occurrences

8AM	790
TC8G	473
OE	414
SC8G	409
TOE	374
4ODAM	334
TCG	323
4ODCC8G	295
8AR	278
4ODCCG	270
SCG	264
OR	264
4ODC8G	256
8AE	238
AR	231
AM	231
TOR	201
4ODAE	185
8G	181
ODAM	181
SOE	172
AE	169
4OE	165
2AM	163
TCCG	158
TCOE	152
ODCCG	143
4ODG	138
4ODAR	137
OHAM	136
OHC8G	128
SCCG	128
T8G	127
2	126
TDZG	125
OHAE	123
ODAE	120
TG	118
OHAR	118
SO	113
ETC8G	108
HZG	106
4ODCG	105
ODAR	104
ODC8G	103
8OE	101
SCOE	101
ODCC8G	96
OHCCG	93
4OHAM	93
SG	92
OHG	91
AM%%	91
4OHC8G	91
SOR	89
DAM	89
8AIR	87
8AK	82
4ODOE	81
2OE	80
TCOR	80
TO8G	79
OHCC8G	79
4OHG	79
SCC8G	77
ODG	76
8AM%%	73
RAM	73
8AN	71
2AR	70
4OHCC8G	69
TCO	68
THZG	67
4OHAE	64
TCO8G	63
4ODTG	63
4ODAM%%	62
4OHTG	62
DCC8G	61
4ODAN	59
OHOE	59
4OHAR	58
TAR	57
SDZG	57
HZOE	55
AK	54
ODAM%%	54
TCC8G	53
8OR	53
O8AM	53
HZCG	52
ODCOE	50
HOE	50
2AE	50
TCDG	49
DC8G	49
4ODT8G	48
DAR	48
DCCG	47
ODOE	47


The "%" signs are a construct of the transcription list and indicates an
alternative reading in the other transcriptions.
----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 30 11:44:07 1997
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From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Some f108 statistics
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:54:49 -0000
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>From Denis Mardle

Earlier the question of permuting VMs words, at least
within a line, was raised.     Below I give a table of
'word-ending' versus 'next word-starting' symbols
within lines. Counts for f108r and f108v are combined. 
 Ends of lines and of paragraphs are noted plus totals.
eva,FSG and Currier forms are given.

Rows are ends   Columns are next-starts
   q   o  ch l  sh a  k  t d  y r  p s cth e f ckh
   4   O  T  E  S  A  D  H 8  G R  P 2  HZ C F  DZ
   4   O  S  E  Z  A  F  P 8  9 R  B 2  Q  C V  X  EL EP TOT
9 176 121 64 58 23  8 13 6 14 2 12 2 1  1  0 0  0  27 10 538               
D   8  51 35  1 22 29  0 2  2 4  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   4  6 154
E  13  30 38 16 15  8 21 4  9 3  4 0 1  1  2 0  0  13  2 170     
R   6  33 21  3 10 41  1 1  0 2  1 0 0  0  0 0  0   3  0 122  
8   9   3  3  0  0  6  1 0  0 0  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   2  0  24
J   0   4  5  0  1  3  0 0  0 0  0 0 0  0  0 0  0  18  7  38
O   1   1  1  7  0  0  3 0  5 0  3 1 0  0  0 1  1   0  0  12 
2   0   1  0  0  2  3  0 0  0 0  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   2  0   8 
F   0   0  1  0  1  1  0 0  0 0  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   0  0   3
S   0   1  0  0  0  1  0 0  0 0  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   0  0   2
C   0   0  0  0  0  0  1 0  0 0  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   0  0   1 
n   0   1  0  0  0  0  0 0  0 0  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   0  0   1
V   0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0  0 1  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   0  0   1

Not in the columns are rows n,L,D   m,K,J   x,Y,(n)

It is clear from the above that words are NOT permuted or
permuted very badly.  The former is much more likely.

 Other counts ( I have the f108r and f108v separately -
they look fairly similar ) could be made for the 'Recipes'
folios and by condensing the rarer rows and columns turned
into suitable multivariate vectors.

Best wishes      Denis


  
  

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 30 13:29:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:34:42 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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		<9711260253.AA01891@pansy.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp> <199711300310.BAA02292@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > She "felt" that the [f77v] drawings could be interpreted as
>     > describing the feminine reproductive system and the idea of
>     > fertilization/pregnancy in some sort of allegorical way.  I
>     > guess that this must have been already said by many others, but
>     > I don't know whether this "theory" has been completely disproved
>     > or not.
>
> I believe that is still the most popular interpretation of f77v-top.
>
> I myself think that the picture looks more like "kidneys and bladder"
> than "uterus and ovaries".  The top tubes would be the renal arteries
> (veins? I forgot already...), the bottom ones the ureters.
>
> (In the "uterus" interpretation, two of the pipes presumably are the
> Fallopian[1] tubes; but then what are the other two?)
>
> Or perhaps it is a picture of both systems together...
>
> Taken literally, of course, the pictures show naked women playing with
> water in some bizarre bathroom fixtures.  But I don't think this
> "medieval Water World" interpretation can be defended.
>
> Someone suggested that the "organs" are actually parts of plants, and
> the "water" represents the (physiological,mystical,whatever) fluids
> that run through them.  (But the water is flowing down --- surely the
> author knew that sap flows up from the roots?)

Hmmm. I've only got access to a couple of the pictures, but here's my take
on
F79v:

At the top you have a naked, pregnent woman standing in a pipe of some
sort holding a cristian cross up. Above her is a cloud and rain is falling
into what looks like a big funnel.

About 25% of the way down you have another naked, pregnent woman lieing
in what looks likea pool of water. She seems to be holding a bottle of
some sorts, possibly a bottle of wine. The water from the funnel above is
falling onto her face.

The water from there falls into another cistern of some sorts where there
is another naked, pregnent lady, kneeling beside it.

Next it falls into a fountain of somesort.

Then it falls into a pool, where another naked lady is sitting inside what
looks
like the bottom half of a mermaid. She might also be pregnent. A number of
animals are drinking from the pool. The pool is black.

So what does this suggest? On the face of it, its a flow diagram, showing
how the heavens send us water, how its trapped, used and eventually given
to animls when it is dirty (black). No idea why the ladies are pregnent,
unless its some tie to the life giving effects of the water (which they
also appear to be praying for).
Maybe they come from somewhere dry.

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 30 15:32:07 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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    > [Mik Clarke:] At the top you have a naked, pregnent woman
    > standing in a pipe of some sort holding a christian cross up.
    
The great (?) thing about the VMs is that there is not a single thing
we can be 100% sure of...

The object does look like a Christian cross, but I gather that 
Christian symbology is very rare in the VMs; so perhaps 
it would be safer to say "a cross-like object".

I am not sure the women are pregnant.  For one thing, the ideals of
feminine beauty have varied a lot over the ages, and it often included
some extra fat.

Moreover, the person who drew the pictures was no artist, and they
were clearly drawn in a hurry; they are more "sketches" than
"illustrations".  The women's arms and legs are generally too small
and misshapen, the head too big, the face rather crude.  The tubes are
"Fallopian tubes" and "ovaries" in f77v are as asymmetrical as they
could be.

In particular, the poses of the figures are rather wooden and stereotyped.
In the two pages I have seen, there are nine complete female figures; 
of these, seven are in basically the same pose: 3/4 view, standing upright,
with the nearest arm bent way back and down. 

My impression is that the "artist" developed this way of drawing naked
women from the habit of doodling them for himself.  The doodles that
some people draw during phone calls or boring meetings often have the
same idiosyncratic, repetitive characters: the same objects drawn in
the same pose, with the same features emphasized or reduced, the same
artistic defects.  Doodles are like that because they are done to
satisfy a low-level sensual peasure (like chewing a pencil or smoking
a cigarette), and therefore are not constrained by usual artistic
values (realism, variety, meaning, effectiveness, etc.).

So the women's prominent bellies may be just be part of the artist's
stereotype.  
    
    > She seems to be holding a bottle of some sorts, possibly a
    > bottle of wine.
    
My impression is that the object is a ring with some sort of 
pendant.  But my copy is too poor to tell...

    > A number of animals are drinking from the pool.
    
Two are inside the pool, two are outside.  The drawings are 
too poorly done for us to tell what they are doing.

I think it is quite possible that these illustrations were copied by a
scribe who had no idea of what they meant.
    
    > The pool is black.

Beware: the original illustrations are colored, but some of the images
that are availabel in the Web have been scanned from black-and-white
photographs.

    > So what does this suggest? On the face of it, its a flow
    > diagram, showing how the heavens send us water, how its trapped,
    > used and eventually given to animls when it is dirty (black).

For page f79v, that explanation sounds as good as any other
advanced so far.  But f77v must be something else...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Nov 30 15:29:08 1997
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From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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			<9711260253.AA01891@pansy.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp> <199711300310.BAA02292@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br> <3481BFD1.E4DAD46B@ibm.net>
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Mik Clarke wrote:

> At the top you have a naked, pregnent woman standing in a pipe of some
> sort holding a cristian cross up. Above her is a cloud and rain is
> falling
> into what looks like a big funnel.
>

        Don't be too sure their pregnant - most of the nymphs in the MS are
drawn in the same manner.   Also be aware that this is one page of about
nineteen that depicts 'flows' of some sort with various piping and lots of
the nymphs.

> like the bottom half of a mermaid. She might also be pregnent. A number
> of
> animals are drinking from the pool. The pool is black.
>

        The lack of Colour copies of the MS has certainly attributed to
some speculations between dark and light zodiacs too!   This pool could be
blue or green.


> how the heavens send us water, how its trapped, used and eventually given
>
> to animls when it is dirty (black).

        Apart from the dirty water (as I believe the true image is probably
green), it's not a terrible speculation that these 'flow diagrams' describe
the importance of water to 'this society'.        As for the direction of
the flow - I'll buy that gravity means the liquid is traveling from the top
of a page to the bottom.

                                John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec  1 03:59:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:50:51 +0200
Subject: Re: Index to the Voynich Manuscript?
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Dear all,

Adam McLean wondered about a database of Voynich words,
and some useful suggestions followed.
If I may just make two points:

1) Gabriel's interlinear file is the most complete
   transcription generally available (it was combined
   from all available partial transcriptions).  Yet it
   is still incomplete, and it contains very mixed
   data (different sources with remarkably different
   transcription styles).
2) The word is obviously the unit we're all working
   with, but often word boundaries are uncertain (and
   often just plain wrong). Only the Currier transcription
   contains some sections where uncertain spaces have
   been marked.


So I think, that one important property of such a
database should be that it is very dynamic. It should
be easy to regenerate (e.g. from a transcription file)
whenever a new, more complete one is available. It
should also be easy to regenerate for different
assumptions about word spaces, especially the
uncertain ones. The database itself would ideally
be an intermediate 'product'.

Cheers,  Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec  1 04:47:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:40:14 +0200
Subject: Re: About the section "recipes"
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John Grove wrote in response to  Mik Clarke:

>  Don't be too sure their pregnant - most of the nymphs in the MS
> are drawn in the same manner.

That is correct. Perhaps they are all pregnant??

> This pool could be blue or green.

I am pretty sure that Petersen gives the colours of
the pools.

Stolfi also wrote:

> ... are in basically the same pose: 3/4 view, standing
> upright, with the nearest arm bent way back and down.

There are many more of them in the zodiac pages. There,
the nearest arm points either back or rests on the hip.
This is a very distinct feature of each of these nymphs.
Sometimes they are all cramped in a narrow space and
you can hardly make them out, but the orientation of the
arm is always visible.
Whether it means something....?

Cheers, Rene


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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:29:31 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Some f108 statistics
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    > [Denis:] Below I give a table of 'word-ending' versus 'next
    > word-starting' symbols within lines. Counts for f108r and f108v
    > are combined.  Ends of lines and of paragraphs are noted
    > 
    >   Rows are ends   Columns are next-starts
    >      q   o  ch l  sh a  k  t d  y r  p s cth e f ckh
    >      4   O  S  E  Z  A  F  P 8  9 R  B 2  Q  C V  X  EL EP TOT
    >     --- --- -- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- - - -- -- - --  -- -- ---
    >   9 176 121 64 58 23  8 13 6 14 2 12 2 1  1  0 0  0  27 10 538               
    >   D   8  51 35  1 22 29  0 2  2 4  0 0 0  0  0 0  0   4  6 154

I note that "9" endings seem to be incompatible with "A" starts,
while is "D" endings seem to be incompatible with 
"4" "E" "F" "P" or "R" starts.

In most spoken natural languages, the end of one 
word affects the pronunciation of the beginning of the next word,
and vice-versa.

In some languages this phenomenon is reflected in the spelling too. 
In Italian, for instance, one writes

  "il gatto"    (the cat)
  "lo specchio" (the mirror)
  "l'uomo"      (the man) 
  
for purely phonetic reasons (the three nouns have the same gender).

Also, the final "e" of some words is dropped depending on
the first letter of the next word:

  "bene armato" (well-armed)
  "ben vestito" (well-dressed)
  
French spelling has similar quirks.  

In Japanese the "h-" sound often changes to "b-"
or "p-" depending on the preceding sounds.

My reference book says that in Chinese the actual tone
of a syllabe is often affected by that of the next syllabe.

Regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec  1 06:08:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:01:19 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Jim Finnis <jcf@broadsword.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Some f108 statistics
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At 08:29 01/12/97 -0200, you wrote:
>In Italian, for instance, one writes
>
>  "il gatto"    (the cat)
>  "lo specchio" (the mirror)
>  "l'uomo"      (the man) 
>  
>for purely phonetic reasons (the three nouns have the same gender).
>
>Also, the final "e" of some words is dropped depending on
>the first letter of the next word:
>
>  "bene armato" (well-armed)
>  "ben vestito" (well-dressed)
>  
>French spelling has similar quirks.  
>
>In Japanese the "h-" sound often changes to "b-"
>or "p-" depending on the preceding sounds.
>

Probably not relevant, but the Celtic languages exhibit a series
of changes of pronunciation dependent of context. For example,
Welsh:

cegin       - (a) kitchen
y gegin     - the kitchen
fy ngegin   - my kitchen
ei chegin   - her kitchen
dy gegin    - your kitchen


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec  2 03:35:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:10:39 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Mandrake plant
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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Something I ran across in my search of English herbalists that studied at
Cambridge:

"The legend of the mandrake plant was still very prevalent in the 15th
century. The mandrake plant was regarded by the ancients as both magical and
medicinal. Some writers suggested that it could be fatal to the gatherer
unless it was harvested according to a prescribed ritual. The roots of the
mandrake were supposed to be shaped like a fully formed, miniature human
body which would emit a tiny scream when uprooted. Although many writers
expressed doubts about this legend, artists frequently gave a stylized human
form to illustrations of this plant. Disreputable herbalists took advantage
of the expectations of a gullible public and sold appropriately crafted root
plants as "mandrakes." In the mid-15th century William Turner fought against
such superstitions in science, denouncing the myth of the mandrake root,
specimens of which "come to be sold in England in boxes, with heir and such
forme as a man hath, are nothyng elles but folish feined trifles, and not
natural. For they are so trymmed of crafty theves to mocke the poore people
with all, and to rob them both of theyr wit and theyr money." The legend
lingered for Gerard to decry again in the 16th century. "

The only problem with the above paragraph is that William Turner was 16th
century instead of 15th century, his first herbal publication being set
forth in 1548, the popular edition of which was published in London in 1551,
as noted below.  William Turner published two other volumes of herbal lore,
the last of which was set to type in 1568.  (Gerard's commentaries were
first published in 1597 - to the best of my recollection).

TURNER, WILLIAM. A new herball, wherein are conteyned the names of herbes in
Greke, Latin, Englysh, Duch, Frenche... London: Steven Mierdman, 1551.

Other commentaries go on to say that the mandrake comes in two forms - male
and female.  The female plant has a root that looks like a "crossed pair of
human legs" and was most desirable as an aphrodesiac.  The description below
has a strong resemblance to folio 33 recto:

"The roots of Mandrake were supposed to bear a resemblance to the human
form, on account of their habit of forking into two and shooting on each
side. In the old Herbals we find them frequently figured as a male with a
long beard, and a female with a very bushy head of hair."

The Voynich has plant drawings that depict human heads and "body parts",
such as the crossed-leg description of the mandrake cited above.  Whether
these drawings actually refer to the mandrake remains to be seen.  They can
also be of a variety of plants taken locally for mandrake, such as henbane,
nightshade, etc.  Whatever the "artist's" interpretation, he/she does indeed
follow the western tradition of herbal drawings up to the first half of the
16th century.

What I am actually trying to get a line on is the drawing of the "animal
root" that first appears on  ?90v1? and then again on 99v.  I take the
animal to be some sort of a cat, probably a lion.  Is anyone familiar with
any herbal that depicts roots as animals?

Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec  2 04:47:08 1997
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Subject: Re: Mandrake plant
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Rayman wrotee:

> The mandrake plant was regarded by the ancients as bot
> magical and medicinal. Some writers suggested that it
> could be fatal to the gatherer unless it was harvested
> according to a prescribed ritual. The roots of the
> mandrake were supposed to be shaped like a fully formed,
> miniature human body which would emit a tiny scream when
> uprooted.

Tiny or not so tiny. It was this scream which would render
one insane. See the picture in Tiltman's article of people
using a dog to uproot the plant while sticking their fingers
into their ears and standing at a safe distance.
Some mandrakes did have remarkably human-like roots and
these were (of course) the most powerful ones.

> "The roots of Mandrake were supposed to bear a resemblance to
> the human form, on account of their habit of forking into two
> and shooting on each side. In the old Herbals we find them
> frequently figured as a male with a long beard, and a female
> with a very bushy head of hair."

Rudolph had a 'couple', both of the best quality. They were
supposed to be 'still alive' and had all sorts of mysterious
properties. They have been preserved to this day.

> What I am actually trying to get a line on is the drawing
> of the "animal root" that first appears on  ?90v1? and then
> again on 99v.  I take the animal to be some sort of a cat
> probably a lion.  Is anyone familiar with any herbal that
> depicts roots as animals?

Not just one. This was a theme very much present in the
alchemical herbals described by Toresella.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec  2 12:29:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:20:23 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Eyes in gallows, again...
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Status: OR


The Vms illustrations have labels, and many of these are transcribed
in Landini's interlinear. 

Some time ago I posted on the web a set of tables showing the
positions where each label is referenced in the main text.  Those
tablee weresa bit hard to evaluate because they used one of my "lossy"
encodings, which erased such details as the difference between Currier
P and F (EVA t and k).

I have been building a new version of those tables, using the EVA
alphabet and improved matching rules.  Below is a small excerpt of one
of the new tables.  As before, I divided the text (Friedman's
transcription) into 20 blocks of approximately 1500 words each, and
counted how many times each target word appears in each block.  
I considered only occurrences that are whole words of the text.

                Occurrences per text block (and page where block begins)
                -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
                 f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f  f
                 1  9  2  3  4  4  5  7  7  8  8  8  8  1  1  1  1  1  1  1
                 r  v  1  1  0  8  8  5  8  0  3  6  9  0  0  0  0  1  1  1
                       v  v  v  v  r  v  r  r  r  v  v  0  3  5  7  1  2  4
                                                  6  1  r  v  v  v  r  v  v
  target   tot  -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
  word     ocs  01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
  -------- ---  -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
  kal       43   .  .  .  1  3  2  8  2  3  1  2  1  1  .  1  8  5  2  2  1
  tal       27   .  .  .  1  .  1  5  2  3  5  2  3  1  .  1  2  1  .  .  .

  kar       56   1  .  .  5  5  8  3  .  2  1  1  3  2  2  3  7  5  4  4  .
  tar       46   1  .  .  3  1  3  1  .  4  4  6  3  5  1  2  2  3  5  1  1

  key       17   1  .  .  2  2  2  2  .  .  1  .  1  1  1  .  .  1  3  .  .
  tey       12   1  1  .  1  .  .  1  .  .  .  1  2  1  1  .  .  1  1  .  1

  kol       39   5  5  1  1  3  4  1  .  1  .  1  4  2  4  .  2  2  1  .  2
  tol       53   .  3  3  1  4  6  3  4  2  5  3  3  5  2  1  1  4  .  1  2

  kor       20   2  .  2  5  1  2  .  .  .  .  1  .  2  4  1  .  .  .  .  .
  tor       22   .  3  1  2  1  3  .  .  1  2  1  2  4  1  .  1  .  .  .  .

  okaiin   299   3  7  7 20  5  9  8  9 21 13 15  5 13 12 11 34 31 28 34 14
  otaiin   218   8  6  4  7  2  5  3  3 20 11  7 11  7  7 14 30 12 23 27 11

  ykaiin    48   2  2  4  5  4  2  .  .  .  1  5 11  2  .  3  3  1  1  1  1
  ytaiin    49   3  2  2  2  2  2  1  1  1  1  2 15  .  .  4  8  .  .  2  1

  qokaiin  459   2  3  5 11  2  6 16 37 60 59 27 13  9 15 29 38 27 42 24 34
  qotaiin  128   3  1  2  4  .  1  . 10 12  9  5  6  2  4 14 11  5 10 13 16

  okain     32   .  1  2  4  2  5  .  6  2  3  .  .  1  1  1  2  .  .  1  1
  otain     14   1  1  .  1  2  .  1  4  .  2  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  .

  okal     127   3  5  1  7  5 10  7  6  5  7  7  3 12  2  5 11 12  6  8  5
  otal     129   1  2  3  4  5  3  8  2 10  7  7 11  6  2  5 14 16  6  8  9

  qokal    187   .  .  .  2  1  4 18 28 20 34 20  4  8 12  6  7 11  8  2  2
  qotal     69   .  .  .  1  1  2  4  7  7 14  3  6  .  4  6  1  3  4  2  4

  okeey    148   2  1  1  4  4  3  3  4  7  6  .  5  7 24  5 10 24 23  5 10
  oteey     97   2  .  1  1  2  .  2  3  3  5  3  1  9 12  6  7 18 11  5  6

  okol      50   7  3  5  1  3  3  1  .  3  .  3  3  8  4  1  2  2  .  1  .
  otol      62   3  6  6  1  4  7  1  2  3  1  3  8  3  2  2  2  2  .  6  .

  qokol     87   2  7  5  3  4  6  3  6  6  6  5  7 11  3  4  1  4  .  1  3
  qotol     42   2  5  3  5  5  1  1  2  2  4  1  2  2  .  4  .  .  .  2  1

  okchol    11   1  1  1  .  2  2  1  .  .  .  .  .  2  1  .  .  .  .  .  .
  otchol    26   6  3  4  2  5  2  1  .  .  .  1  1  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

  okeeol    16   .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  1  3  4  2  .  1  2  1  .
  oteeol     8   .  .  .  1  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  1  .  1  2  .  2  .  1

  okeody    23   1  .  1  .  2  3  4  .  .  .  1  .  1  5  1  .  1  2  1  .
  oteody    19   .  .  .  .  1  1  1  .  .  .  2  3  1  1  2  1  .  4  1  1

  qokeody   31   .  .  1  .  3  1  4  .  .  .  1  8  3  6  .  .  2  1  1  .
  qoteody   11   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  3  1  1  2  .  1  .  1  2

Once again, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that EVA "t" and
"k" (Currier P and F) are the same letter:

  * For every label word that contains EVA "t" and occurs more
    than just a few times, the parallel "k" word also occurs,
    with comparable frequency (usually within a factor of 2 or 3, 
    mre rarely within a factor of 10 or so); and vice-versa;
    
  * The k and t forms have roughly similar distributions 
    along the text;
    
  * The occasional differences between the t-form and k-form distributions
    can be explained as scribal preferences and letter interference
    effects.  Specifically, the A scribe favors the t-form by as much
    as 2:1, whereas the B scribe strongly prefers the "k"-form (but
    neither uses only one exclusively). Also the "qo" prefix
    seems to induce a preference for the "k" form.

I plan to post the new table in a day or two.  I may divide the text
into the traditional sections and languages, rather than blocks.  
(I did it this way to allow easy comparison of densities in different
blocks.) Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

BTW, if you have a few words that you would like to see included in
the map, please let me know. (I aready got John Grove's "titles" and
Robert Firth's "planets").

Best regards,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec  2 16:23:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:30:47 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> In most spoken natural languages, the end of one
> word affects the pronunciation of the beginning of the next word,
> and vice-versa.
> [SNIP]
> Also, the final "e" of some words is dropped depending on
> the first letter of the next word:
>
>   "bene armato" (well-armed)
>   "ben vestito" (well-dressed)

And from English - An apple, a bananna
Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec  2 16:41:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:49:16 +0000
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		<9711260253.AA01891@pansy.arai.pe.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
		<199711300310.BAA02292@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > [Mik Clarke:] At the top you have a naked, pregnent woman
>     > standing in a pipe of some sort holding a christian cross up.
>
> The great (?) thing about the VMs is that there is not a single thing
> we can be 100% sure of...

Yep

> I am not sure the women are pregnant.  For one thing, the ideals of
> feminine beauty have varied a lot over the ages, and it often included
> some extra fat.

Yes, but the arms and legs seem wrong for fat women. The proportions would seem
to fit normally thin women better. As you say though, it may be the artists
style.

> My impression is that the "artist" developed this way of drawing naked
> women from the habit of doodling them for himself.  The doodles that
> some people draw during phone calls or boring meetings often have the
> same idiosyncratic, repetitive characters: the same objects drawn in
> the same pose, with the same features emphasized or reduced, the same
> artistic defects.  Doodles are like that because they are done to
> satisfy a low-level sensual peasure (like chewing a pencil or smoking
> a cigarette), and therefore are not constrained by usual artistic
> values (realism, variety, meaning, effectiveness, etc.).

One of the things they reminded me of were the marginals in Mad. Generally
little doodles drawn in whatever free space was available. If it wasn't for the
way the text wraps about them, I'd suggest the that maybe they were added later
by a bored monk looking for something to make secretive doodles on (which could
also explain the rigid poses if he wasn't familier with the subject matter).

> So the women's prominent bellies may be just be part of the artist's
> stereotype.
>
>     > She seems to be holding a bottle of some sorts, possibly a
>     > bottle of wine.
>
> My impression is that the object is a ring with some sort of
> pendant.  But my copy is too poor to tell...

When I have time I'll post some cleaned up (and maybe colourized) versions of
the images on my web page...

Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec  2 16:47:13 1997
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Message-ID: <3484915B.63AF04D5@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:53:15 +0000
From: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
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To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
CC: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Mandrake plant
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rmalek wrote:

> Something I ran across in my search of English herbalists that studied at
> Cambridge:
>
> "The legend of the mandrake plant was still very prevalent in the 15th
> century. The mandrake plant was regarded by the ancients as both magical and
> medicinal. Some writers suggested that it could be fatal to the gatherer
> unless it was harvested according to a prescribed ritual. The roots of the
> mandrake were supposed to be shaped like a fully formed, miniature human
> body which would emit a tiny scream when uprooted. Although many writers
> expressed doubts about this legend, artists frequently gave a stylized human
> form to illustrations of this plant. Disreputable herbalists took advantage
> of the expectations of a gullible public and sold appropriately crafted root
> plants as "mandrakes." In the mid-15th century William Turner fought against
> such superstitions in science, denouncing the myth of the mandrake root,
> specimens of which "come to be sold in England in boxes, with heir and such
> forme as a man hath, are nothyng elles but folish feined trifles, and not
> natural. For they are so trymmed of crafty theves to mocke the poore people
> with all, and to rob them both of theyr wit and theyr money." The legend
> lingered for Gerard to decry again in the 16th century. "

Hmmm. Sounds a lot like the Chinese Gen-sing mythology. They had to pe specialy
harvested, they thought the plant could assume human form (a little girl) and it
sometimes turned up as a human shaped root...
Mik
--
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec  3 19:23:08 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Mik Clarke <mikclrk@ibm.net>
cc: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>, VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Mandrake plant
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PS to below: although most people don't realize it, ginsing (the human-
bodied plant) grew in Native America too. I heard Cheyennes talking about
it during my fieldwork in Montana in the early '70s. Revered.

warm regards, moonhawk



On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Mik Clarke wrote:

> 
> 
> rmalek wrote:
> 
> > Something I ran across in my search of English herbalists that studied at
> > Cambridge:
> >
> > "The legend of the mandrake plant was still very prevalent in the 15th
> > century. The mandrake plant was regarded by the ancients as both magical and
> > medicinal. Some writers suggested that it could be fatal to the gatherer
> > unless it was harvested according to a prescribed ritual. The roots of the
> > mandrake were supposed to be shaped like a fully formed, miniature human
> > body which would emit a tiny scream when uprooted. Although many writers
> > expressed doubts about this legend, artists frequently gave a stylized human
> > form to illustrations of this plant. Disreputable herbalists took advantage
> > of the expectations of a gullible public and sold appropriately crafted root
> > plants as "mandrakes." In the mid-15th century William Turner fought against
> > such superstitions in science, denouncing the myth of the mandrake root,
> > specimens of which "come to be sold in England in boxes, with heir and such
> > forme as a man hath, are nothyng elles but folish feined trifles, and not
> > natural. For they are so trymmed of crafty theves to mocke the poore people
> > with all, and to rob them both of theyr wit and theyr money." The legend
> > lingered for Gerard to decry again in the 16th century. "
> 
> Hmmm. Sounds a lot like the Chinese Gen-sing mythology. They had to pe specialy
> harvested, they thought the plant could assume human form (a little girl) and it
> sometimes turned up as a human shaped root...
> Mik
> --
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2260
> 
> 
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec  3 21:41:08 1997
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rmalek wrote:
> 
> "The legend of the mandrake plant was still very prevalent in the 15th
> century...
> The roots of the
> mandrake were supposed to be shaped like a fully formed, miniature human
> body which would emit a tiny scream when uprooted. 

"Go and catch a falling star
	Get with child a mandrake root,
 Tell me where all past years are, 
	Or who cleft the devil's foot;
 Teach me to hear mermaids singing,
 Or to keep off envy's stinging,
		And find
		What wind
 Serves to advance an honest mind."

	- John Donne, 1633


	- John Donne,

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec  4 06:20:08 1997
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Dear all,

the circumstantial evidence for the VMs pages not being
in the original or intended order keeps increasing.
Already mentioned earlier were the two indications in the
bio section, where the text-only page is not on the outside
but on the second bifolio, and a page with a continuous
design (water flowing between two tubs on two different
pages) is not in the centre.

Thirdly there is also the outer bifolio of quire 8, which has
on its outside two herbal pictures (f57r and f66v) and on the
inside two of the 'sequences' (f57v and f66r), with similar
weirdoes occurring in them (e.g. the picnic table). The next
bifolium (ff. 58 and 65) has two text-only starry pages and
two more herbal pages, with nary a picnic table among them.
It would seem as if f57v and f66r could belong together and
the intermediate pages have little to do with them.

Furthermore, the fact that the starry folio (f58) and a herbal
folio (f65) are joined together *might* mean that the stars
section could be of herbal nature.

The importance of this scrambling could be that the person who wrote
the foliation may not have been the original author (which in
itself is perhaps unusual - comments anyone?) and also that
the possibility of a 'modern' fake is further reduced.

Usual disclaimer about the speculative nature of this post
applies.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec  4 07:50:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:27:17 +0200
Subject: Gallows identity
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Dear all,

I agree that EVA k and t (Currier F and P) occur in
similar contexts, but I am not so sure how that
should point to their being the same thing.
Especially in the 'invented language' scenario,
they could mean two different branches in the same
group or family.
Also, if they are equivalent with diacritical marks such
as the spiritus in Greek or the accents in Italian,
they would occur in similar contexts.

FWIW,
    Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec  4 06:32:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:29:18 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Currier P and F identity?
Status: OR

Jorge Stolfi states:-

>Once again, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that EVA "t" and
>"k" (Currier P and F) are the same letter: 

I recently drew up a table showing whether pairs of letters occur 
within words or not.
I am restricting my analysis to the 'Biological section' at present. 
Below are my results for the pairings of Currier P and F  with every 
other  character. The upper table shows the results for the P or F in the 
initial position and the lower one for these in the second position.
These would tend to support Jorge's suggestion about the identity 
of the P and F characters, especially the second table.. I should really
have programmed the algorithm to reflect the number of occasions 
that a character association is found so that we can try to eliminate
some of the noise produced by transcription errors. (I will try to find
time to do this at the weekend)

Adam McLean




found/not found       found/not found
______________________________________
P9                     F9
PE                     FE
     PR                     FR
     PN                     FN
     PM                FM
P8                     F8
     P4                     F4
P2                          F2
     PJ                     FJ
P3                     F3
     PT                FT
PO                     FO
     PD                     FD
     P6                     F6
PF                          FF
PU                     FU
PC                     FC
     PG                     FG
PA                     FA
P*                     F*
     PB                     FB
     PP                     FP
PZ                     FZ
PL                          FL
     PH                     FH
     PQ                     FQ
PS                     FS
     PX                     FX
     PV                     FV
     P1                     F1
     P5                     F5
     P7                     F7
     P0                     F0
     PW                     FW
     PY                     FY
     PK                     FK





found/not found       found/not found
______________________________________
*F                     *P
OF                     OP
AF                     AP
9F                     9P
CF                     CP
SF                     SP
ZF                     ZP
     6F                     6P
     DF                     DP
     NF                     NP
     MF                     MP
     3F                     3P
8F                     8P
4F                          4P
2F                     2P
     JF                     JP
     LF                     LP
     5F                     5P
RF                     RP
     TF                     TP
     UF                     UP
EF                     EP
     GF                     P
     HF                     GP
     FF                     FP
PF                     PP
     VF                     VP
     BF                     BP
     WF                     WP
     YF                     YP
     QF                     QP
     XF                     XP


----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:   www.levity.com/alchemy
Alchemy Web bookstore:  dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alchemy/index.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec  4 12:23:09 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:00:32 +0200
Subject: Re: Scrambled pages - foliation
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Status: OR





Rayman wrote:

> The page numbering actually comes in two sets, top and bottom.
> Both are in different hands, ...

> Reason dictates to me that the bottom foliation was made
> later than the top foliation

That is the opposite of what I had always assumed but my
only reason for doing so was D'Imperio's comment on the
archaic nature of the bottom ones (quire signatures).

> I am also certain that the upper pagination does not
> match any samples I have of John Dee's handwriting...
> The bottom pagination however, could very well be
> Dee's hand. ... it was his style to paginate at the
> bottom and not the top.

Is this then the explanation for the disagreement
between A.G. Watson and one of the list members who
also checked the handwriting?

As always curious,
       Rene



From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec  4 11:08:09 1997
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Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 09:03:02 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Scrambled pages - foliation
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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[Rene wrote:]
>The importance of this scrambling could be that the person who wrote
>the foliation may not have been the original author (which in
>itself is perhaps unusual - comments anyone?) and also that
>the possibility of a 'modern' fake is further reduced.
>
>Usual disclaimer about the speculative nature of this post
>applies.


The page numbering actually comes in two sets, top and bottom.  Both are in
different hands, and I do mean handwriting styles this time.  If we take the
case of the "8" and "9" characters, we see a consistently different slant
and penmanship between each of these foliation sets and the Voynich script.
Not only was the author's pen held at a different angle than the Voynich
author, the "angle of attack" of the hand in relation to the page is also
substantially - and consistently - different.  My font program allows me to
experiment with both the angle of the pen and the angle of the hand in order
to precisely duplicate calligraphic fonts, and I can tell you beyond doubt
that there is a substantial difference between these sets of characters.
(Gabriel, you may be able to experiment and duplicate my findings?)

Reason dictates to me that the bottom foliation was made later than the top
foliation based on the numbering system of actual page count versus recto's
and verso's, but since I assumed the bottom foliations to be later, I
haven't studied them in any depth.  I could be wrong on this count.  (Could
be a good study.  If they are actual page numbers as I have assumed, then we
would know if they were written before or after certain pages came up
missing.)

What I am sure of is that neither the upper or lower page numbers were made
by the author of the Voynich.  I am also certain that the upper pagination
does not match any samples I have of John Dee's handwriting, and I have
many.  Do we have handwriting examples from Kirscher, etal.?  The bottom
pagination however, could very well be Dee's hand.  Again I assumed early on
that the pagination spoken of that was attributed to Dee was the bottom
pagination.  It roughly matches his writing and, it was his style to
paginate at the bottom and not the top.  After looking at his work for
years, my eyes naturally went to the bottom.

If we are dealing with an original manuscript, the author might have decided
not to foliate until he finished the book and restitched the pages into
their proper order, or he may have decided that the use of Roman pagination
would be a dead giveaway to its origin.  Who knows?  The organization
question is one of many that causes me to tend toward original rather than
copy.

I hope my thoughts were of some help.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec  3 20:05:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:58:30 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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I'm back. 1200 messages exactly were lurking
in my mailbox. Took me two days to clear that
lot.

From reeds Fri Dec  5 22:24:54 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9712052224.ZM22988@research.att.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:24:53 -0500
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: (Fwd) secret languages, etc.
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Status: OR

Just saw this on another mailing list:

--- Forwarded mail from Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Date:         Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:36:12 CST
Reply-To: Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology
              <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
From: Jim Marchand <marchand@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      secret languages, etc.
To: Multiple recipients of list MEDTEXTL
              <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

I just bumped into Rick (Wright) in the hall.  He has an excellent student
doing work on Hildegard's secret language, if that is the word for it.  What
do we know about such things as glossalalia, xenoglossia, etc. in the Middle
Ages?  Everybody has read Bischoff on Geheimschriften or Levison on same, or
even run into some such thing in a manuscript.  We had a thread some years
ago on finger talk and the like, but nothing on secret languages.
Jim Marchand.


---End of forwarded mail from Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Dec  6 10:32:07 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re Poems in the Voynich Manuscript
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:33:43 -0000
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>From Denis Mardle

Adam Mclean says
>Has anyone noticed that folio 81r is in the form of verse?
>Firstly the text appears to be laid out with left justified >lines as is
common
>with verse.
>There appear to be two stanzas of fifteen lines each >beginning with the 
>character which looks a bit like an embellished capital "P". >Each stanza 
>appears to be subdivided by a line also beginning with the >capital "P". 
>the first into 8 + 7 lines and the second to 7 + 8 lines . 

 I do not wish to be a wet blanket but the large space on the
right of f81r, which is unusual, is also on the left of 
f81v, the other side of the folio where there seems to be
an incomplete drawing of a 'tube' of some kind.  As a result
the text on f81v is very irregular on the left and cramped
up against the margin on the right.  The incomplete 'tube'
shows through on f81r and I think from the Yale copy-flo
that there may be a faint attempt to start a drawing on the
empty f81r space.
   It looks to me that the vellum is faulty in the
attempted drawing area.  There are a few other examples
where the vellum is damaged before drawings or writing
were done ( as well as others stained later and so difficult
to read ).  One example is the top right of f112, another
is the avoidance of a blob ( ? hole or blot ) in the writing
on both sides of f107 - in paragraph ten on both sides but
on the written line for f107v and between lines for f107r.
  In fact I have just noticed that the indented centre area
on the first right-hand 15 lines of f81r which seems to be
blank or very faint has blurred the corresponding area on
the writing of f81v.   This leads to an interesting thought
- can we tell from these various signs which side of the
folios were written and drawn first ?

   Just to wrap up f81r.  There are 16 not 15 lines in the
second paragraph.   The text that Adam gives is actually
the FSG version.  I also wonder if he was influenced
subconciously by the fact that the two paragraphs start
POET ! - all 19 such occurrences are Language B, all on line
1 of paragraphs and 16 of the 19 at word 1.  For those of
you without the Interlinear version 1.6 file they are

l=line p=paragraph w=word
f41r  l  6 p 2 w 2  POETC8G
f79r  l  7 p 2 w 1  POETC8G
f79r  l 35 p 7 w 1  POETC8G
f80r  l 37 p ? w 1  POETG
f81r  l  1 p 1 w 1  POET(O/C)G
f81r  l 16 p 2 w 1  POET8G
f82r  l 17 p ? w 1  POETC8
f84r  l 15 p 4 w 1  POET8
  All recto so far !
f103r l 18 p 6 w 1  POETC8G
f104v l 12 p 4 w 1  POETCTG
f106v l 20 p ? w 1  POET2
f107r l 13 p 4 w 1  POETE2
f107v l  8 p 3 w 1  POETCOE
f107v l 35 p ? w 1  POETC8G
f108r l 14 p 4 w 1  POETAE
f108r l 29 p 8 w 1  POETC8G
f112r l 19 p ? w 1  POET8G
f115r l 19 p 6 w 8  POETC8G
f115v l 13 p 5 w 5  POETC8

 Other POE's are more frequent as one would expect.
 In Currier POET becomes BOES.

Food for thought       Denis
 
     

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Dec  7 01:44:07 1997
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From: Daniel Harms <dmharms@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Cryptography Source
Status: ORr

        This may be a little off-topic, but I'm trying
to track down a book on cryptography.  The author is
"Kluber", and the title includes the word  
_Kryptographik_.  Has anyone heard of such an animal,
or know where I could look to find out something about
it?

Yrs.,

Daniel Harms             |   "...fie on the immortality of
dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu |  cast-iron lawn deer!"
                         |             -- H. P. Lovecraft

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec  8 08:05:07 1997
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The Vms has been called the Most Mysterious Ms in the world,
and perhaps it is. I found the following excerpt on the Web, which
describes a possible challenger, and provides an interesting
comparison for the price Rudolph paid for the VMs. Note that the
Rodolphus II of Germany would not be 'our' Rudolph, unless the
quoted date is wrong.

Cheers, Rene

---------------start quote-------------------

                            PHILIP N. CRONENWETT

[...]  The section quoted, 'The Most Curious Book in the
World,'

is long, but relevant:

     The most singular bibliographic curiosity is that which belonged
     to the family of the Prince de Ligne, and is now in France. It is
     entitled Liber Passionis Domini Nostri Jesu Christi, cum
     Characteribus Nulla Materia Compositis. This book is neither
     written nor printed! The whole letters of the text are cut out of
     each folio upon the finest vellum; and, being interleaved with
     blue paper, it is read as easily as the best print. The labor and
     patience bestowed in its completion must have been excessive,
     especially when the precision and minuteness of the letters are
     considered. The general execution, in every respect, is indeed
     admirable; and the vellum is of the most delicate and costly kind.
     Rodolphus II. of Germany offered for it, in 1640, eleven thousand
     ducats, which was probably equal to sixty thousand at this day.



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec  9 21:56:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:49:22 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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niman oquimitalhui y teatzin ma
yuhqui mochihua notecauhtzinne
ma xiqualmoquanilica y tlen aquipia
ma hualeco y tlen amotlatnqui,
niman otlananquili y cihuatl quito
hotinechmocnelili ....

Enough. The old Aztec connection (tm)
again. Remaindered at $9.95 in the
university bookshop next door, 
James Lockhart's "Nahuas and Spaniards --
Postconquest Central Mexican History and
Philology" could not fail to catch my
eye, and my wallet. I also found
David Gosden's "Starting to read Medieval
Latin Manuscript -- an introduction for
students of medieval history and genealogy
who wish to venture into Latin texts".
Pricier at $13.95, still better than the
regular price of $37.95.

Nothing much else. Only that there is no
way out of it: I MUST produce another 
version of Monkey, one that allows almost
unlimited size (no 32,000 word/character
limit, not even 320,000, but as much as
will fit in my 64M of RAM, or your 256M
if you have been extragavant). There is
NO way out, it has to be done. I need it,
everybody needs it... *sigh*

Just when I was getting used to being on
holidays... drat :-(

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 11 01:41:07 1997
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 Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:21:07 EST
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:21:32 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Cipher Theory
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Message-id: <01bd05fd$065d8960$a91537a6@madimi.internetMCI.COM>
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Status: OR

There seems to be a lull in VSG activity, and since you are all pondering, I
would like to take this time to advance my theory so that it may be pondered
as well.  This theory pertains to a single page of the Voynich.  The numbers
and quantities may indeed change from one page to another.

Strong's numerical string served as a mechanism to shift a single alphabet
numerically, depending on the location of the character.  His string was
1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-4-7-4.  He referred to this as a "double reversing
arithmetical string" for obvious reasons.  In effect, its purpose was to
minipulate a single alphabet in six different numerical patterns, keyed to a
12 pattern sequence.  This allowed for six different meanings for each
character, depending on the alphabet used.  Simple.

1  ABCDEFGHIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXY
2  BCDEFGHIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYA
3 CDEFGHIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYAB
4 DEFGHIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYABC
5 EFGHIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYABCD
6 FGHIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYABCDE
7 GHIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYABCDEF
8 HIKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYABCDEFG
9 IKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYABCDEFGH

This was far too simple to be the truth, and even Strong knew that.  He
surmised that this method was used over a much wider array of alphabets,
probably an alphabet block as long as it was wide.  That expands the system
to a 23 x 23 block, giving each character an expanded representation - from
6 to 138.  The initial system represented above is a limited polyalphabetic,
but expanding it to a much larger alphabet group gives it a 3-dimensional
aspect.  The alphabet possibilities above now represent only one of 23
possible alphabets in use.  Of all the systems I've seen in my life, this is
one of the coolest!!!

In order to add the third dimension, we must have a way of moving up and
down through the alphabets.  Strong's tactics were not clearly defined on
this issue.  He settled on numeric movements that were unattainable
(unreadable) to the mathematician, which is why I chose to look elsewhere
for the answer.

I believe the underlying influence to the Voynich cipher shift to
e  -------- a piece of Latin text.  So there, I have finally said it, and
you can scoff all you want.

Nobody but me thinks I am right, but that is enough.

I hope you find this post interesting and I hope you follow the numbers.
They will surprise you.


Regards,    Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 11 11:20:10 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: subscribe
Status: OR


From reeds Mon Dec 15 09:58:36 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9712150958.ZM3704@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:36 -0500
In-Reply-To: Daniel Harms <dmharms@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu>
        "Cryptography Source" (Dec  6, 22:38)
References: <2.2.16.19971123121812.266f7cdc@pop.acsu.buffalo.edu>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
To: Daniel Harms <dmharms@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: Cryptography Source
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Dec 6, 22:38, Daniel Harms wrote:
> Subject: Cryptography Source
>         This may be a little off-topic, but I'm trying
> to track down a book on cryptography.  The author is
> "Kluber", and the title includes the word  
> _Kryptographik_.  Has anyone heard of such an animal,
> or know where I could look to find out something about
> it?
> 
> Yrs.,
> 
> Daniel Harms             |   "...fie on the immortality of
> dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu |  cast-iron lawn deer!"
>                          |             -- H. P. Lovecraft
>-- End of excerpt from Daniel Harms

Kryptographik -- Lehrbuch des Geheimschreibekunst
by J. L. Klu"ber
Tubingen, 1809

I think it had 2 volumes, and described both methods of encryption and
of cryptanalysis.  There is an entry in Galland's Bibliography of Cryptology,
but my copies are at home, so I cannot give more details. 


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From reeds Mon Dec 15 11:33:01 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9712151133.ZM13276@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:33:01 -0500
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: (Fwd) Imaginary languages
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Status: OR

Seen on another mailing list.

--- Forwarded mail from Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:32:29 CST
Reply-To: Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology
              <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
From: Jim Marchand <marchand@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Imaginary languages
To: Multiple recipients of list MEDTEXTL
              <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

I just sent the following message out on HUMANIST; then I thought: "What the
heck?! We said medtextl was such a great list, why not try them?

I have a friend who is writing on the "imaginry language" of Hildegard von
Bingen.  We were talking about glossolalia and xenoglossia, and I mentioned
to him that he ought perhaps to seek generality in his study by looking at
other cases of imaginary languages.  I could come up only with a few cases:
Swift, of course, with his "little language."  More, Utopia, caused me to
look into James Knowlson, _Universal Language Schemes in England and France_,
1600-1800 (Toronto, 1975), with his interesting Chapter 4: "Ideal Languages
in the Imaginary Voyage."  He mentions, of course, Rabelais and George
Psalmanaaszaar's Formosan Language, familiar to all of us.  I remember a
recent case (about 10 years or so ago), but I do not really remember it at
all; I believe it concerned two young women.  Does anybody out there have
anything handy on imaginary languages?
!
Jim Marchand.


---End of forwarded mail from Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 15 12:56:07 1997
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From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Message-Id: <9712151750.AA10822@mentat.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Imaginary languages
Cc: marchand@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Status: OR


Jim Marchand said (to another list):
> I have a friend who is writing on the "imaginry language" of Hildegard von
> Bingen.  We were talking about glossolalia and xenoglossia, and I mentioned
> to him that he ought perhaps to seek generality in his study by looking at
> other cases of imaginary languages.  I could come up only with a few cases:
> Swift, of course, with his "little language."  More, Utopia, caused me to
> look into James Knowlson, _Universal Language Schemes in England and France_,
> 1600-1800 (Toronto, 1975), with his interesting Chapter 4: "Ideal Languages
> in the Imaginary Voyage."  He mentions, of course, Rabelais and George
> Psalmanaaszaar's Formosan Language, familiar to all of us.  I remember a
> recent case (about 10 years or so ago), but I do not really remember it at
> all; I believe it concerned two young women.  Does anybody out there have
> anything handy on imaginary languages?

I assume he's making a distinction between languages invented for some
specific purpose (e.g. Volapu"k, Esperanto, Ido and a host of others as
a universal auxiliary language; Loglan to test the Sapir-Whorf
hypothesis; Lincos to converse with hypothetical extraterrestrial radio
operators; and computer languages) and languages invented as literary
devices.

I would guess Enochian (primarily by Kelley?) is a hybrid, based on
Jacques' retailing of Donald Laycock's work (which I haven't seen
first-hand).

For strictly fictional languages, there are plenty of examples in the
current century.  Edgar Rice Burroughs invented at least one language
(Barsoomian) as part of the backdrop for his Martian novels.  J.R.R.
Tolkien's Elvish inventions stand out -- Quenya and Sindarin in
particular, with a little work in the Black Speech and less in Khuzdul
(dwarvish).  M.A.R. Barker went into even more detail for his Tsolyani
language, supporting the imaginary world of Tekumel -- primarily a
role-playing game franchise, but including two novels.  Marc Okrand
invented Klingon for the Star Trek movie series, and has published
books on it; lots of useful phrases for everyday life, and a good
language for expressing deadly insults.  I think there's a version of
Romulan as well.  Esperanto and Loglan have been used as props in a
number of science fiction books.

	Jim Gillogly

From reeds Mon Dec 15 18:52:13 1997
From: "Jim Reeds" <reeds@research.att.com>
Message-Id: <9712151852.ZM26767@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:52:13 -0500
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More stuff from medtextl.  The "Jim" is Jim Marchand.

--- Forwarded mail from Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technol=
ogy <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:09:12 +0100
Reply-To: Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology
              <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
From: Max Grosse <max.grosse@UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE>
Subject:      Re: Imaginary languages
To: Multiple recipients of list MEDTEXTL
              <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Dear Jim,
as far as imaginary languages are concerned, I think your friend should h=
ave
a look at one of Umberto Eco's last books: La ricerca della lingua perfet=
ta,
Roma Bari: Editori Laterza 1993. An English translation should be availab=
le
from Basil Blackwell. And for the  Middle Ages, an incredible source of
information about medieval linguistic thought in general  is Arno Borst's=

huge "Habilitationsschrift": Der Turmbau zu Babel. Geschichte der Meinung=
en
=FCber den Ursprung und Vielfalt der Sprachen und V=F6lker, Stuttgart:
Hiersemann 1957-1963, 6 (!) vol., now available as relatively inexpensive=

(200 DM or so) paperback reprint from DTV.
Best regards,
Max




********************************************
Max Grosse
Universit=E4t T=FCbingen
Romanisches Seminar
Wilhelmstr. 50
D-72074 T=FCbingen
e-mail: max.grosse@uni-tuebingen.de
TEL: ++49-(0)7071-2973256
FAX: ++49-(0)7071-294282
********************************************


---End of forwarded mail from Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and T=
echnology <MEDTEXTL@POSTOFFICE.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

-- =

Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

--PART-BOUNDARY=.19712151852.ZM26767.att.com--


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 15 19:20:11 1997
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In-Reply-To: Daniel Harms <dmharms@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu>
        "Cryptography Source" (Dec  6, 22:38)
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Daniel harms asked:

>         This may be a little off-topic, but I'm trying
> to track down a book on cryptography.  The author is
> "Kluber", and the title includes the word  
> _Kryptographik_.  Has anyone heard of such an animal,
> or know where I could look to find out something about
> it?

Johann Ludwig Klu"ber.
Krytographik.  Lehrbuch der Geheimschreibekunst (Chiffrir- und 
Dechiffrirkunst) in Staats- und Privatgescha"ften.
Tu"bingen: J. G. Cotta, 1809.
472 pages, 2 volumes.

"This study is the most noteworthy for the history of cryptography.
In addition it contains considerable information concerning processes
of cipherment, methods of deciphering, statistical data, and a 
bibliographical list of 19 pages at the end of Vol 2...", says 
Galland.  I think it was the main crypto textbook in the early part
of the last century.


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research, Room C229
180 Park Avenue, Building 103, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 15 21:29:07 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: (fwd) Imaginary languages
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:23:48 -0500 (EST)
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A couple other fantasy/sci fi references to imaginary languages:

In Karel Capek's _War with the Newts_ there are a large number of
newpaper clippings about the Newts, several in unknown but realistic
looking languages.

Samuel Delany's _Babel 17_ concerns attempts to decipher an unknown
language thought to be connected with acts of sabotage.

Jack Vance's _Languages of Pao_ looks at the use of languages specifically
constructed to influence the societies of their speakers according to the
Whorfian hypothesis.

C.J. Cherryh's _Hunter of Worlds_ uses no less that three alien languages,
to express (supposedly) non-human concepts.

Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 04:14:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:56:03 +0200
Subject: Silly fraud theory, odd facts
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Dear all,

you may remember my silly theory that the VMs is the
product of a Russian (Sowiet?) plot perpetrated at the
turn of this century. I managed to construct a story
which would explain quite a few odd facts, where for
two of them this explanation was a bit thin.
Note that I hope and believe that this theory is in fact
not true, but no solid evidence against it exists.
The two weak points in my story are:
1) The faded signature of Tepenecz, which would have
   to have been planted as well (odd but not impossible).
2) The quote in Kraus' autobiography which proves that
  a high-ranking Vatican Library official knew about the
  VMs, but not through Voynich's discovery of it.

This signature of Tepenecz has been bothering me.
According to D'Imperio, it was found by accident, and
then brought to light using UV or IR light (I can never
remember which).  Was this the only page which was
thus photographed? If Voynich was part of such a plot,
he would have had to make sure this signature was found.
This succeeded. The fact that none of the other pages
was apparently investigated with UV/IR light is a bit
suspicious IMHO...
Finally, does anybody know if this signature just faded with
time or has been erased?

As for Ruysschaert knowing about the VMs, this seems
pretty good evidence that it has been seen and catalogued
by someone else, prior to Voynich. And the people
from the Vatican who bought the remainder of the library
thought it came with it. This purchase was in 1912,
the same year that Voynich bought the VMs. Why would the
prefect of the Vatican Library allow someone to take of with
this (and other) Ms? He was known for the fact that he revived the
Vatican LIbrary through the acquisition of other collections.
The other odd fact is that Voynich did not tell anybody
where he found it, so that he could go back there and
buy some more. But the collection had been moved
away to the Vatican already in the same year!
One possible explanation may be found in a Web page
once given by Jim: http://www.whallenbooks.com/history.html
I quote another book dealer (i.e. not W.Voynich):

(start quote)
One day I was looking at a dozen boxes under a table when I noticed
a volume of religious pamphlets bound together. I flipped through it and
found, among many items of little interest, a gold-rush narrative, that is,
a description of the gold fields in California. I put it down at the bottom
of the box and covered it over with a group of worthless books so that it
would be protected if the roof caved in and went back to tell David
Szewczyk
about it. He then went with his young son and they bought the lot for (I
think) $125.00. No one else had noticed it.
(end quote)

Maybe the roof of the Villa Mondragone did not seem very reliable
either....
Maybe that's why Voynich did not tell anybody where he found the
Ms, for several years. And why Ruysschaert thought it was in
the Vatican Library...

If anybody knows anyhting which would corroborate or invalidate
any of the above ideas, please let me know. Details in the
correspondence with father Strickland might shed some light...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 07:08:12 1997
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Subject: Re: (Fwd) Imaginary languages
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Jim Gillogly wrote:

> Loglan to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis

I've been meaning to ask this: what was the conclusion?

If necessary, where can I sign the petition that I
will not have my thought processes limited by some
dictionary? :-)

Seriously though: was there ever any conclusion?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 11:35:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:27:54 +0200
Subject: Re: Silly fraud theory, odd facts
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I should know better than to pursue this thread :-)

> I think that another weak spot in the "Soviet Plot" theory
> is the lack of a convincing motivation.

True enough, but....

> The impact of the VMs "distraction" on the productivitiy of
> American military cryptographers has been insignificant, and
> I can't believe that the Soviets would expect otherwise.

We don't know what would have happened in the early years after
1910, if Newbold had not been distracted by the VMs.
There is of course no evidence that Newbold had anything to
do with cryptography in those days, but the fact is that
cryptographic services only started in 1917 or so.
Perhaps the Russians gained 5 years?

Perhaps, also, the VMs completely failed to so what it
was supposed to do? After all, Voynich first shopped it
around Europe (France?) providing only piecemeal copies.

Anyway, I fully agree that this is indeed all very implausible,
but I am sure weirder things have been done!!

> it seems that W. Voynich tried hard to "sell" Roger Bacon
> as the Vms author---a proposition that would have increased
> the book's value enormously. It is hard to belive that he
> was being sincere,...

As with his statement that he only saw the Marci letter
after he had concluded himself that  Bacon was the author.
It could be true, but again a bit hard to believe.  And
another incongruity: it has been stated that the letter
was attached to the cover (which would make sense), but
Voynich said he found it between the pages....

> I think it is quite possible that Voynich himself removed
> any pages that clearly contradicted the Bacon theory...

Hmm, a rare book dealer cutting in an old Ms?
At least we know that any pages lost after the stay in Prague
will not have contained any key.

> Perhaps that is why the book was already lacking a title
> page when the folios were numbered...

There was a cover... should that have been numbered?
Perhaps there was no title page in the modern sense of the
word? Don't Mss not often just start with plain
text such as 'Liber nnn' or 'Kitab xxx'?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 10:41:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:34:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Loglan and Whorf Hypothesis
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> > Loglan to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis
> 
> Seriously though: was there ever any conclusion?

	I don't think so.  Loglan/Lojban has been through three major
revisions, the last one a few years back.  A few hundred people all over
the world are learning Lojban; after that is finished, perhaps a
systematic test and conclusion would be possible.  

	I saw the previous at various places on the Net, which I can't
recall.  Moonhawk is interested in the Whorf hypothesis, so perhaps he
knows more.

Dennis



From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 10:47:11 1997
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:44:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Loglan again
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	One more point on Loglan/Lojban.  IIRC, its grammar is predicate
logic.   As many have noted, mathematical systems and logical systems are
in fact languages - and sometimes very restrictive ones.  So I doubt that
they are universal, value-neutral constructs, such as one would need to
test the Whorf hypothesis.

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 11:05:08 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Silly fraud theory, odd facts
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    > [Rene:] you may remember my silly theory that the VMs is the
    > product of a Russian (Sowiet?) plot perpetrated at the turn of
    > this century. ...  Note that I hope and believe that this theory
    > is in fact not true, but no solid evidence against it exists.
    > The two weak points in my story are:

I think that another weak spot in the "Soviet Plot" theory is the
lack of a convincing motivation.

The impact of the Vms "distraction" on the productivitiy of American
military cryptographers has been insignificant, and I can't believe
that the Soviets would expect otherwise.  

In fact, the Vms may have had the opposite effect, by adding a bit of
"humanistic" glamour to cryptography and thus attracting to the field
people who would have considered it too "dry" otherwise.  (Thanks to
the Vms, for instance, Kahn's book moved up quite a few places in my
"to read" list.)


On the other hand, it seems that W. Voynich tried hard to "sell" Roger
Bacon as the Vms author---a proposition that would have increased the
book's value enormously.  It is hard to belive that he was being
sincere, given that all experts agree that the book is too modern by
at least two centuries.  So I think it is quite possible that Voynich
actually doctored the evidence so as to strengthen the Bacon connection.

For instance, he might have faked the signature of Tepecnez in order
to create a link between the book and Marci's letter---which is the
only reason why Bacon's name was brought up at all.

It is fairly certain that some Vms pages were lost between the time
the folios were numbered (in the 1600s?) and the book's arrival at
Beinecke.  While some of the missing folios could have been lost by
accident, a few seem to have been cut away.  I think it is quite
possible that Voynich himself removed any pages that clearly
contradicted the Bacon theory...

BTW, if the VMs was indeed sold to Rudolph II as a Bacon original, the
same suspicion falls on the unknown medieval salesman, who had the same
marketing motivation.  Perhaps that is why the book was already
lacking a title page when the folios were numbered...

    > Maybe that's why Voynich did not tell anybody where he found the
    > Ms, for several years. And why Ruysschaert thought it was in the
    > Vatican Library...

Quite likely...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 11:38:10 1997
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 08:31:54 PST
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Loglan again
Status: OR

Dennis skribis:
> 	One more point on Loglan/Lojban.  IIRC, its grammar is predicate
> logic.   As many have noted, mathematical systems and logical systems are
> in fact languages - and sometimes very restrictive ones.  So I doubt that
> they are universal, value-neutral constructs, such as one would need to
> test the Whorf hypothesis.

I'm unconvinced on about three levels.  First, on definitions.

My simplistic (i.e. IANAL (I am not a linguist)) interpretation of the S-W
hypothesis is: "The language we think and speak in directly affects the way
we view the world."  A stronger variant is "We can't think about something
if it runs counter to the linguistic structures we have in our mental
toolkit."  If either of these is correct, I don't see that a value-neutral
construct is necessary to test it.  Perhaps you could enlarge on that?

Secondly, in what way is predicate logic less universal and value-neutral
than anything else?  Ambiguity is harder to achieve, but Loglan/Lojban
tend to build concepts with metaphors, so it's not impossible... but even
if it's difficult, that doesn't argue that it's less universal or
value-neutral.  I'd even entertain more detail on why it's inherently more
restrictive than a natural language.

Thirdly, why would one need a universal, value-neutral construct to test
the S-W hypothesis?  I'm guessing it's because I've misstated it horribly
in my first whinging paragraph.  James Cooke Brown says "Loglan is a
language that was originally devised to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis
that the structure of language determines the boundaries of human thought."
His proposed test was not to construct a neutral language and then see
how human thought would develop using it, but to severely bias it toward
logic, and see whether fluent speakers of it would (necessarily) think
more logically.

Heinlein bought into it -- Loglan (not by name) played a starring role
in his book Gulf, where a bunch of smart people used a very efficient
language and were very efficient thinkers.  Jerry Pournelle told me
once that Heinlein intended this to be Loglan.  This is supported by
his use of then name Loglan in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for a
human-to-computer language.

Sorry, I seem to have drifted off-topic.

	Jim Gillogly
	26 Foreyule S.R. 1997, 16:34
	12.19.4.13.14, 4 Ix 12 Mac, Fourth Lord of Night

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 15:09:08 1997
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	id MAA13465; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:11:38 -0800
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:11:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
Reply-To: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
cc: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Loglan again
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971216104220.23826B-100000@mozart.micro-net.net>
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Which of the over 200 versions of "the (Sapir-)Whorf Hypothesis" are we
talking about here, exactly? Which formulation? Not Whorf's, certainly,
since he never wrote a single hypothesis. I'm curious about what people
MEAN when they use that phrase. 

Whorf himself would say that there is no such thing as autonomous language
-- that language and culture are inextricably two sides of the same coin.
With Loglan/Lojban, there's hardly any culture to correlate linguistic
facts to (if I have my own facts right). That is, I'm not sure we can
equate a language/culture complex with an invented, cultureless language.

warm regards, moonhawk

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Dennis wrote:

> 	One more point on Loglan/Lojban.  IIRC, its grammar is predicate
> logic.   As many have noted, mathematical systems and logical systems are
> in fact languages - and sometimes very restrictive ones.  So I doubt that
> they are universal, value-neutral constructs, such as one would need to
> test the Whorf hypothesis.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> 
> 


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 16:35:08 1997
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Subject: Re: Loglan again
To: dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:31:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "Adams Douglas" <adamsd@cts.com>
Cc: ixohoxi@micro-net.com, voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.971216105706.6704E-100000@haywire.csuhayward.edu> from "Dan Moonhawk Alford" at Dec 16, 97 12:11:37 pm
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> Whorf himself would say that there is no such thing as autonomous language
> -- that language and culture are inextricably two sides of the same coin.
> With Loglan/Lojban, there's hardly any culture to correlate linguistic
> facts to (if I have my own facts right). That is, I'm not sure we can
> equate a language/culture complex with an invented, cultureless language.

My feeling about this question was always that the point of Lojban (and I
was a big Loglan fan back when it was called that) was to help define what
component was from language and what was from culture. If you have an
invented, cultureless language, then the way you use it to fit with your
culture that's _different_ from the way you use your culture's native
language says a lot about which components of a language contribute what to
the culture/language system.
-Adams

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 16:43:08 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
cc: ixohoxi@micro-net.com, voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Loglan again
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Hm! Good point! Now we're back to the original question: was anything
figured out?

warm regards, moonhawk



On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Adams Douglas wrote:

> > Whorf himself would say that there is no such thing as autonomous language
> > -- that language and culture are inextricably two sides of the same coin.
> > With Loglan/Lojban, there's hardly any culture to correlate linguistic
> > facts to (if I have my own facts right). That is, I'm not sure we can
> > equate a language/culture complex with an invented, cultureless language.
> 
> My feeling about this question was always that the point of Lojban (and I
> was a big Loglan fan back when it was called that) was to help define what
> component was from language and what was from culture. If you have an
> invented, cultureless language, then the way you use it to fit with your
> culture that's _different_ from the way you use your culture's native
> language says a lot about which components of a language contribute what to
> the culture/language system.
> -Adams
> 
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 16 16:53:09 1997
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 13:49:12 PST
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Loglan again
Status: OR

Moonhawk skribis:
> 
> Hm! Good point! Now we're back to the original question: was anything
> figured out?

No -- or perhaps "not yet", depending on your optimism.  I think there is
no fluent speaker of any variant of Loglan.  Several dozen people have a
smattering, and some have done translations of a paragraph or more, but I
strongly doubt anyone claims to be able to think in Loglan or lojban.  My
information is a couple of years old, though -- perhaps things have
progressed since then.

It's different enough from natural languages that I have a tough time
wrapping my brain around it (unlike Esperanto, which fits my Indo-European
synapses like a glove).

	Jim Gillogly
	26 Foreyule S.R. 1997, 21:51
	12.19.4.13.14, 4 Ix 12 Mac, Fourth Lord of Night

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 03:17:07 1997
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Dear all,

I think my original question has been answered rather
eloquently, and I am relieved that I'm still allowed to
think thoughts for which words do not exist.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 02:19:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:12:25 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Silly fraud theory, odd facts
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Silly fraud theory, odd facts

>On the other hand, it seems that W. Voynich tried hard to "sell" Roger
>Bacon as the Vms author---a proposition that would have increased the
>book's value enormously.  It is hard to belive that he was being
>sincere, given that all experts agree that the book is too modern by
>at least two centuries.  So I think it is quite possible that Voynich
>actually doctored the evidence so as to strengthen the Bacon connection.
>
>For instance, he might have faked the signature of Tepecnez in order
>to create a link between the book and Marci's letter---which is the
>only reason why Bacon's name was brought up at all.

If any sincerity is in question in this matter, it would be that of Prof.
Newbold, and I think we all agree he was  convinced of his conclusions.
Only a very small number of "experts" were allowed to examine the manuscript
before the death of W. Voynich, who relied almost totally on Newbold's
claims - wild enough claims to make the manuscript worth a fortune in any
century!  Only after the defeat of Newbold's claims do we find the
manuscript being looked at in any different light than the Roger Bacon
authorship/time frame, as most of the scientific world was very accepting of
Newbold's revelations and then very dismayed when they were so soundly
thrashed.

We even find Feely's work following the same genre as Newbold, in date,
time, and even particulars of method.  Although there was speculation
between 1930 and 1944 about the actual origin and dating, it was not until
Hugh O'Neill examined and reported on the manuscript with permission of Mrs.
Voynich that the dating was moved forward to some degree.  Although O'Neill
was the first to report a more recent date by examination, his report has
been generally unavailable and therefore unread by most researchers.
O'Neill gave the general feel of the manuscript to be a late 15th or early 1
6th century herbal/astrological, falling into the class of the alchemical
herbal.  His identification of several plants that were clearly New-World
placed its authorship at 1493 or later.  This was the first published dating
of the manuscript.  Friedman seemed to accept a 15th century motif, and that
has pretty much been the tradition since 1945.

All "experts" may agree now, but during the life of W. Voynich, the
information he had on the subject was limited, and his leading expert proved
again and again - from one press conference to another - that Roger Bacon
was the author.  If Newbold had been correct, Voynich would have been in
possession of probably the most valuable manuscript on earth.

>It is fairly certain that some Vms pages were lost between the time
>the folios were numbered (in the 1600s?) and the book's arrival at
>Beinecke.  While some of the missing folios could have been lost by
>accident, a few seem to have been cut away.  I think it is quite
>possible that Voynich himself removed any pages that clearly
>contradicted the Bacon theory...

Even if the above reasoning does not change your mind on this point, to
accuse a rare book collector of mutilation would be like calling Mother
Teresa a child molester.  If he handled his real books only half as
carefully as I handle my copies --- you're way off base here.

>BTW, if the VMs was indeed sold to Rudolph II as a Bacon original, the
>same suspicion falls on the unknown medieval salesman, who had the same
>marketing motivation.  Perhaps that is why the book was already
>lacking a title page when the folios were numbered...

The red flying characters on folio 1r, being unique and symbolic as they
are, indicate that it is indeed the beginning of the manuscript.  What are
your suspicions that there is something missing in the beginning of this
manuscript, save the cover?

Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 03:43:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:38:38 +0200
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I know this is hopeless, but I'll try anyway:

Rayman wrote:

> Although O'Neill was the first to report a more recent date
> by examination, his report has been generally unavailable
> and therefore unread by most researchers.

We all know of his short article in Speculum, also repeated in Brumbaugh's
book, but Petersen makes copious references
to plant identifications from some " O'Neill MSS ". I
think he even gives pages numbers. Working at the same
University, Petersen would have had access to a book
or article draft, even if it never made it to print.
So the question is: is this MS still extant? Has anybody
seen it?
Apparently, it is not with Petersen's material kept
at the Marshall foundation, otherwise it would have
appeared in Jim's bibliography.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 03:45:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:41:40 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Loglan again
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Loglan again


>> Whorf himself would say that there is no such thing as autonomous
language
>> -- that language and culture are inextricably two sides of the same coin.
>> With Loglan/Lojban, there's hardly any culture to correlate linguistic
>> facts to (if I have my own facts right). That is, I'm not sure we can
>> equate a language/culture complex with an invented, cultureless language.


I am aware that my commitment to a Voynich cipher solution makes me appear
less than equal to Y'all, but my questions concerning the above point should
make my IQ rating run into the negative.  Nevertheless, I must ask these
questions, just so I might reach zero IQ with time and effort. :-)

With gratuities toward all the wonderful group members that have posted
examples of languages and artificial languages with explanations and
insight, I have grown accustomed to reading and seeing sections of text that
look rather Voynich-like.  But I would have to ask the same question, only
in different words:  How do you build a language that has nothing to do with
your base knowledge in the 16th century?

Tonal languages and languages that require declention have identifiable
structures.  I'm dumb as a post and I can see them, so I know you guys can
see them.  Prefixes, roots, declentions, etc.  All languages exhibit the
similar aspects.  Even our own mathematical languages exhibit substance and
form equivalent to the linguistic experience.  How do you invent a language
that does not reflect your base knowledge?  How do you avoid all known
intonations, declentions, mathematical approaches, etc.?  Has anyone
actually examined modern artificial languages for signatory contamination?

I am not attempting to answer my own question, but unless someone enlightens
me, it just don't figure.  If you devise a prefix /declention scheme it is
either reflective and symbolic of your known languages, or it is
mathematical/or both.  Roots would be around 600-750 normal and a high of
1600 for an extremely well educated person.  Detent would be extremely
repetitive, while prefunctory would be even more so.  Maybe I just don't
understand how the Voynich could possibly be language, but I want to know.

If I were the linguist and I wanted to know which language the Voynich
resembled, I would take a rather large sample of a language from the time
period, (say 10,000 words) and compare them graphically against the Voynich.
Anything that came into range in the word match may be examined by
character, or vice versa.  Once I found a reasonably matching language group
I would attempt to explore that avenue and do my homework.  I would rather
compare the Voynich to 15th/16th century anything than to modern Chinese or
Polynesian.

This 15th/16th century match is something I know a lot about.  Spelling was
fluid and authors had certain preferences.  A few thousand characters of
text can usually demonstrate with adequate certainty who the author of that
text most probably was.  Favored spellings by a certain author usually
clenches the deal - middle English is nothing like modern English.  My data
has shown DeVere to be the author of "A Midsummer Night's Dream", and is
being used anonymously for other purposes beyond the search for the true
Shakespeare.  (Has anyone considered that the body of Shakespearean works
was a collective effort, retouched by a final proofreader?)

But I stray from the point - there are three examples of invented or
artificial languages that disturb me, mostly because of their mathematical
inversion of true linguistic form.  These are the invented language of
Hildegaard of Bingen, the Enochian language of John Dee, and the Voynich
Manuscript.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 04:35:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:28:27 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: O'Neill
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de <rzandber@esoc.esa.de>
To: voynich@rand.org <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 1:41 AM
Subject: O'Neill


>I know this is hopeless, but I'll try anyway:
>
>Rayman wrote:
>
>> Although O'Neill was the first to report a more recent date
>> by examination, his report has been generally unavailable
>> and therefore unread by most researchers.
>
>We all know of his short article in Speculum, also repeated in Brumbaugh's
>book, but Petersen makes copious references
>to plant identifications from some " O'Neill MSS ". I
>think he even gives pages numbers. Working at the same
>University, Petersen would have had access to a book
>or article draft, even if it never made it to print.
>So the question is: is this MS still extant? Has anybody
>seen it?
>Apparently, it is not with Petersen's material kept
>at the Marshall foundation, otherwise it would have
>appeared in Jim's bibliography.



Several years ago I purchased an amount of documents (mostly old
photographs) that pertained to the Voynich.  The subject matter of the
ensemble led me to believe it was a portion of the R. G. Kent collection.
Among that collection was a lengthy recital by Hugh O'Niell, and it was from
that document that I made my above claims.  I initially assumed that the
articles were previously in the hands of a collector of  Voynichiana, and
gave no thought to the later date, considering it simply an addendum and
incentive to the grouping of documents I had purchased.  Now you force me to
varify my source as authentic, a matter I do not doubt.  If mine is a copy
of the original, the original is in Zeta, and that I can find.  Nothing is
hopeless.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 05:37:07 1997
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Dear all,

it was pointed out to me that in my previous mail
I made a remark easily to be misunderstood.

When I said 'I know this is hopeless' I was expressing the
view that I was pessimistic about getting an informative reply
from anybody, not from Rayman in particular. This was based
on the fact that I was inquiring about a probably lost
publication that none of us had ever mentioned before.

That I did not consider it totally and completely hopeless
should be borne out by the fact that I DID ask the question
and I was no little pleased that Rayman did indeed reply
with the information that copies still exist.

I just wanted to make this clear.

Kind regards, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 05:15:08 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 09:37:11 1997
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I share Dennis' sentiment and cannot speak from
personal experience either, having almost only indo-european
experience.

However, with computer languages my experience is totally different.
I'm a boring fortran programmer now, but I used to enjoy myself
looking at such things as 6502 assembly, Lisp, Forth etc.  Now here
I can fully appreciate the immense difference which language
training is going to make on someone's view of the world.

But this is *really* off-topic.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 09:23:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:17:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: Loglan again
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	I've heard a lot of good points in the discussion.

	I agree that Loglan is more "universal", less "culture-bound" than
natural languages.  My point was that predicate logic, Euclidean and
Einstein's non-Euclidean geometries are products of Western scientific and
philosophical thought, and thus not completely "neutral".  

	However, I also agree that you don't need a "neutral" system to
test the Whorf hypothesis.  You'd just need to see how someone uses a
language considerably different from his native one.  Loglan would work
for this purpose.  I also think that an English-speaker trying to use
Hungarian or Swahili would also be a test.  

	I've never learned any significant amount of Esperanto, and no
Loglan, so I have no experience of my own.  My good foreign language is
French, which of course isn't drastically different from English.  Some
things are easier to say in French than in English, and vice versa.

Further comments welcome,
Dennis


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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:46:36 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Suddenly, the Voynich list looks like the
Constructed Language list!

Of Loglan I remember an article in Scientific
American, where it was presented as a new
international language, to oust Esperanto,
with a vocabulary far better designed. I don't
remember what it said about the grammar and 
syntax -- it was a long time ago, 1960 or
thereabouts. Already, the vocabulary part
had struck me as pretty silly. I remember
these two words:

blanu "blue"
rismi "rice"

There was a calculation of their intelligibility
to speakers of the five or six main languages
on which Loglan was built. Chinese was in the
list. "Blanu" scored high because it shared many
letters with Chinese (lan), and -- but I do
not remember the details here -- German I suppose
(blau), French (bleu), English, whatnot. I thought
that immensely silly, because:

1. it did not take into account the letter/sound
   frequencies in those various languages
2. it ignored the fact that you could not guess
   the meaning at all without being given the
   answer. How would a Chinese speaker know to
   retain the middle of "blanu" but the end of
   "rismi" to get "lan" and "mi", and how would he
   know that the resulting "mi" is "rice", and
   not "honey", "secret", and a host of other
   words pronounced "mi"? As for the poor French
   and Spanish speakers, "blanu", "blanc(o)" is
   much more likely to come their minds than
   "bleu" and "azul". 

I suspect that the bit about testing the Sapir-Whorf
hypothesis was added just to make the porject seem
even more important/interesting/scientific/whatever.
I cannot see how Loglan (or any other single language)
can be used to test it. Teaching languages with wildly
different semantics and grammar to groups of children,
yes perhaps. But Loglan or whatever other artificial
language... pull the other one.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 14:13:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:09:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Silly fraud theory, odd facts
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> you may remember my silly theory that the VMs is the
> product of a Russian (Sowiet?) plot perpetrated at the
> turn of this century. I managed to construct a story
> which would explain quite a few odd facts, where for
> two of them this explanation was a bit thin.
> Note that I hope and believe that this theory is in fact
> not true, but no solid evidence against it exists.

	One thing I wonder about.  W. Voynich found the VMs in 1912, but
the Communists didn't come to power until 1917 in Russia.  

	Perhaps the Bolsheviks had a master cryptographer with idle time.
He fabricated the VMs for fun and released it, knowing it would disrupt
some bourgeois society that the Bolsheviks disliked.  He was killed before
long in one of the many Communist purges.

	Now that KGB archives are being opened in Russia, perhaps we
should look there for evidence...

;-)
Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 19:45:07 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: "'Dennis'" <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: Silly fraud theory, odd facts
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:31:27 -0700
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	One thing I wonder about.  W. Voynich found the VMs in 1912, but
the Communists didn't come to power until 1917 in Russia.  

	Perhaps the Bolsheviks had a master cryptographer with idle time.
He fabricated the VMs for fun and released it, knowing it would disrupt
some bourgeois society that the Bolsheviks disliked.  He was killed before
long in one of the many Communist purges.

	Now that KGB archives are being opened in Russia, perhaps we
should look there for evidence...

Dennis:   Might not be a bad idea at that!  the KGB had long arms and a wide range of activity...

best, Don




From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 19:53:11 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: Silly fraud theory, odd facts
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    > [Rayman:] Even if the above reasoning does not change your mind
    > on this point, to accuse a rare book collector of mutilation
    > would be like calling Mother Teresa a child molester.  If he
    > handled his real books only half as carefully as I handle my
    > copies --- you're way off base here.

Well, my remarks were made in the context of wild theories 
that accused Voynich of being a Soviet saboteur, or an
accomplished falsary.  So I was actualy 

>From what I have read (please correct me), I got the impression that
old books were Mr. Voynich's main business, not just a hobby.  So it
doesn't seem unthinkable that he would have removed "for safety" the
page with the peanut plant, or the star map with the Southern Cross.

It is unthinkable for an established and famous scientist to doctor
his measurements to fit his theory.  Nevertheless, such cases do
happen, far more often than scientists would like to admit.
And for much less than the price of a Bacon's original.

    > The red flying characters on folio 1r, being unique and symbolic
    > as they are, indicate that it is indeed the beginning of the
    > manuscript.  What are your suspicions that there is something
    > missing in the beginning of this manuscript, save the cover?

Oops, blush.  I was only showing off my ignorance, again...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 17 21:39:07 1997
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From: bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: Loglan again
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:36:52 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <34981E0C.54C1@trl.telstra.com.au> from "Jacques Guy" at Dec 17, 97 10:46:36 am
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Re: Loglan: As I recall from the Sci Am article, the whole point of using
predicate calculus as the basis of the language was _because_ it is so
much different from ordinary language (i.e. more likely to cause its users
to see the world differently if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis were true.)

The mechanism of manufacturing vocabulary from eight target languages more
or less mechanically had two advantages: 1) easy for the learner 2) easy
for the poor guy who has to make up a lot of new words.

In a way (not being a linguist) the S-W hypothesis always seemed kind of
like the arguments we used to have as kids about whether two of us saw
the same color when we looked at a "blue" object - how do I know you're not
seeing what I think of as "red" (-- whatever that means?)

Bruce Grant

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 09:13:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:10:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Loglan again
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Bruce Grant wrote:

> Re: Loglan: As I recall from the Sci Am article, the whole point of using
> predicate calculus as the basis of the language was _because_ it is so
> much different from ordinary language (i.e. more likely to cause its users
> to see the world differently if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis were true.)

	I agree.  Predicate calculus is different from most natural
languages.  It also doesn't have a human culture associated with it --
other than Western mathematical thought in a general way.  So it would be
as good a test of the Whorf hypothesis as one could have.

> The mechanism of manufacturing vocabulary from eight target languages more
> or less mechanically had two advantages: 1) easy for the learner 2) easy
> for the poor guy who has to make up a lot of new words.

	As Jacques pointed out, words wouldn't necessarily be recognizable
on first sight.  If you explained the derivation to the student in his
native language, it would be a useful mnemonic device.

	However, this *is* off-topic...

Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 11:13:07 1997
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Subject: Voynich, was Re: Loglan again
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Dear all,

> Could the VMS be written in such an unspoken  "language"
> where word construction obeyed some formulaic semantic
> association rather than support phonemes?

It would be quite anachronistic, which is of course not the
same as impossible. IMHO, Stolfi's rule about word
composition from soft and hard symbols is very suggestive,
into the direction of such constructed languages.
Of course, it could also mean that the VMs is an alphabetic
rendering of a syllabic language, or that Kelly snatched
a pile of scratch tables from Tycho and converted the numbers
to funny characters. Oh well...

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 10:31:12 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Bruce Grant <bgrant@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Loglan again
In-Reply-To: <m0xiVpU-001bCDC@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>
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May I use this opportunity for some educational updating? 

On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Bruce Grant wrote:

> Re: Loglan: As I recall from the Sci Am article, the whole point of using
> predicate calculus as the basis of the language was _because_ it is so
> much different from ordinary language (i.e. more likely to cause its users
> to see the world differently if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis were true.)
                               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A more careful phrasing would say "if the principle of linguistic
relativity were true." The SWH is really a collection of academic
critiques ABOUT the linguistic relativity principle, and therefore in and
of itself cannot really be true or false.  

> The mechanism of manufacturing vocabulary from eight target languages more
> or less mechanically had two advantages: 1) easy for the learner 2) easy
> for the poor guy who has to make up a lot of new words.
> 
> In a way (not being a linguist) the S-W hypothesis always seemed kind of
> like the arguments we used to have as kids about whether two of us saw
> the same color when we looked at a "blue" object - how do I know you're not
> seeing what I think of as "red" (-- whatever that means?)

This is exactly the problem with the SWH as it is presented to people in
academic settings -- it creates a fog around something very essential,
which is the principle of linguistic relativity. 

Einstein saw that, before Whorf got involved, and there is a rumor that
Whorf and Einstein actually met and talked about this. Einstein, through
his European education, and Whorf, through Sapir, were heir to the same
thread of European thought, 300 years old by that time, that spoke to the
notion of linguistic relativity. The principle is always the same: each
language has a built-in worldview which results in unique logic,
reasoning, philosophy, science, etc. 

This is what Einstein came to in his stripped-down physics version, which
is really about mathematical languages and their worldviews. Can one use
Euclidean geometry to describe curved spacetime? No -- you can't get there
from here; it is not part of the worldview of that language. For that, you
need a non-Euclidean geometry, one that contains curved spacetime within
its worldview.

The same, by the way, with object vs. relationship types of languages in
mathematics (perhaps another way of saying the same thing). If you use an
object language, all you can see is objects and relationships are unreal
or epiphenomenal; contrariwise, if you use a relationship language, all
you can see is relationships, and objects are unreal or epiphenomenal.
This correlates nicely in comparing Western languages with most Native
American languages, the former being very nominophilic (noun-loving) and
basing their logic, reasoning, philosophy and science on nouns, the latter
being distrustful of nouns, especially as reliable ways to build methods
of logic, reasoning, philosophy and science -- for that you stick to verbs
and only verbs.

I'll stop now.

warm regards, moonhawk




From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 10:55:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:54:16 -0500
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Re: Loglan again" (Dec 18,  9:10am)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971218090524.13697A-100000@mozart.micro-net.net>
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>, VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
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On Dec 18,  9:10am, Dennis wrote:
> Subject: Re: Loglan again
> On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Bruce Grant wrote:
>
> > Re: Loglan: As I recall from the Sci Am article, the whole point of using
> > predicate calculus as the basis of the language was _because_ it is so
> > much different from ordinary language (i.e. more likely to cause its users
> > to see the world differently if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis were true.)

It seems to me that the association of Loglan with the SW hypothesis is largely
a mistatement and cooption of the latter. It does not follow from the intrinsic
relation between language and culture that an artificial language will generate
an artificial culture (whatever that means)! In fact no artificial language has
ever been able to generate any discernable  social adoption in spite of the
many undeniable "rationality" or convenience benefits offered. The reasons for
this
generalized failure and the resilience of language reform movements are quite
controversial and fascinating but imensely tangential to our subject at end...

In any case this generalized failure IMHO says more about the heuristic
likelyhood of the SW hypothesis than Loglan ever will...

> 	I agree.  Predicate calculus is different from most natural
> languages.  It also doesn't have a human culture associated with it --
> other than Western mathematical thought in a general way.  So it would be
> as good a test of the Whorf hypothesis as one could have.
>
> > The mechanism of manufacturing vocabulary from eight target languages more
> > or less mechanically had two advantages: 1) easy for the learner 2) easy
> > for the poor guy who has to make up a lot of new words.

A more interesting aspect (for our purposes) of the artificial language
thematic
is the common complaint among its proponents about the disconnection between
semantics, syntax and semiotics in natural languages. Instead of trying to
synthetise one language out of N John Wilkins and Dalgarno envisaged a language
in which word structure reflected meaning association directly. This is quite
difficult to achieve considering the "phonetic barrier", that is, considering
that most natural languages attach symbols to phonemes and words to concepts.

The same is not true for "languages" in the logical-mathematical sense where
concepts are mapped directly to graphical or gestual symbols whithout phonetic
mediation. Such unspoken languages are not only successful but quite commonly
used in restricetd societies (math, physics, chemistry). They are also quite
artificial anyway you look at them.


> 	As Jacques pointed out, words wouldn't necessarily be recognizable
> on first sight.  If you explained the derivation to the student in his
> native language, it would be a useful mnemonic device.
>
> 	However, this *is* off-topic...
>
> Dennis
>-- End of excerpt from Dennis

Could the VMS be written in such an unspoken  "language" where word
construction obeyed some formulaic semantic association rather than support
phonemes? If that is the case we would better compare its h2 with, say, the
first 128 pages of the
Russell & Whithead "Principia Mathematica" than with Russian or Enochian...

Just a thought.

-Joao

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"When I hear the word 'evolutionary'... I reach for my extinguisher!"

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 12:09:08 1997
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Subject: Re: Voynich, was Re: Loglan again
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Dennis wrote:

 > The VMs text shows a fairly good CV alternation, and
 > there have been several fairly successful attempts to
 > develop a "pronounceable" VMs transcription alphabet,
 > the most notable being EVA.

How about a challenge?
EVA is 'good but not great' when it comes to pronouncibility.
There are common words like 'chcthy' (SX9 or SQ9) which are
problematic. Who can come up with the best scheme?
I vaguely remember something in the archive which was
very impressive.

Admittedly, the definition of pronouncibility is fuzzy
enough to make scoring almost impossible, but the purpose
would be to see just how pronouncible it is...

Any takers?

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 11:53:09 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Voynich, was Re: Loglan again
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On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> > Could the VMS be written in such an unspoken  "language"
> > where word construction obeyed some formulaic semantic
> > association rather than support phonemes?
> 
> It would be quite anachronistic, which is of course not the
> same as impossible. IMHO, Stolfi's rule about word
> composition from soft and hard symbols is very suggestive,
> into the direction of such constructed languages.
> Of course, it could also mean that the VMs is an alphabetic
> rendering of a syllabic language, or that Kelly snatched
> a pile of scratch tables from Tycho and converted the numbers
> to funny characters. Oh well...

	The VMs text shows a fairly good CV alternation, and there have
been several fairly successful attempts to develop a "pronounceable" VMs
transcription alphabet, the most notable being EVA.  

	So I think that Voynichese is pronounceable in its basic form.  It
may be a verbal cipher (word game) or a code with pronounceable groups.  

	The other obvious fact I'm trying to fit in is the paradigms
(Tiltman, Firth, Stolfi).


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 11:53:07 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Phaistos Disk
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	Off topic again, but here's a good image of the Phaistos Disk:
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/wheel1.jpg


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 13:53:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:42:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Voynich, was Re: Loglan again
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Moonhawk wrote:

> A potential spanner in the works for pronouncibility might
> be that what is easily pronouncible in one phonemic system
> may be judged to be not so easy from another phonemic
> system.

This is exactly what I meant with:

> Admittedly, the definition of pronouncibility is fuzzy
> enough to make scoring almost impossible...

I could also imagine that a linguist would have much more
'tolerance' when it comes to judging pronouncibility.

> As far as I can tell, we are not motivated in projecting
> our own Western notions of pronouncibility on the VMs until
> we are sure it reflects a Western phonology (and those
> differ incredibly too, thinking of Eastern European languages).

We could turn that around. Whether we manage to convert it
to something which is pronouncible in a 'Western' sort
of way (where my 'chcthy' would fail) or not: that might
tell us something about the possibility of glossolalia or
a word game as done by a Westerner. If it can be made
pronouncible in an oriental sort of way (whatever that may
mean), well, again it would be a telling piece of
information.
So, how pronouncible precisely is the VMs or can it be
made to be?
I think it would be an interesting exercise, and Moonhawk's
comments reinforced that feeling.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 13:25:07 1997
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Voynich, was Re: Loglan again
In-Reply-To: <C1256571.005CB65F.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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A potential spanner in the works for pronouncibility might be that what is
easily pronouncible in one phonemic system may be judged to be not so easy
from another phonemic system. As far as I can tell, we are not motivated
in projecting our own Western notions of pronouncibility on the VMs until
we are sure it reflects a Western phonology (and those differ incredibly
too, thinking of Eastern European languages).

warm regards, moonhawk



On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> Dennis wrote:
> 
>  > The VMs text shows a fairly good CV alternation, and
>  > there have been several fairly successful attempts to
>  > develop a "pronounceable" VMs transcription alphabet,
>  > the most notable being EVA.
> 
> How about a challenge?
> EVA is 'good but not great' when it comes to pronouncibility.
> There are common words like 'chcthy' (SX9 or SQ9) which are
> problematic. Who can come up with the best scheme?
> I vaguely remember something in the archive which was
> very impressive.
> 
> Admittedly, the definition of pronouncibility is fuzzy
> enough to make scoring almost impossible, but the purpose
> would be to see just how pronouncible it is...
> 
> Any takers?
> 
> Cheers, Rene
> 
> 
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 14:01:08 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Voynich, was Re: Loglan again
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On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> I vaguely remember something in the archive which was
> very impressive.

	That was probably Jacques' system.  It's 
Sun, 26 Jan 92 16:35:15 EST in BIG.txt.  


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 14:49:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:45:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Jacques' Pronounceable Voynich
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	In the archives I found a TRANSLIT script for Jacques'
pronounceable Voynich.  Only minor changes are needed to use it with
BITRANS.  The script goes from Currier to gpr (Guy Pronounceable).

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 13:00:02 EST
From: j.guy@trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Pronounceable Voynich


For those who feel so inclined, here are the rules for
translating from Currier's notation into pronounceable
Voynich using my program TRANSLIT. What good is it? I find
that looking at something that seems easily pronounceable
helps at recognizing patterns. Here:
4=h
8=b
9=a
2=s
E=m
R=y
S=r
Z=l
P=t
B=p
F=k
V=f
Q=tir
W=pir
X=kir
Y=fir
G=im
H=um
1=nim
T=iy
U=ny
0=iny
D=u
II=n
N=iu
M=nu
3=inu
J=ng
K=ing
L=ung
5=ning
6=eng
7=eng
A=a
CC=a
C=e
O=o
I=i
/=.
.=.
,=,
#=#
-==
*=*
 




From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 16:17:07 1997
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From: "Joao Leao" <leao@iridium.std.com>
Message-Id: <9712181615.ZM22663@iridium.std.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:15:52 -0500
In-Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
        "Jacques' Pronounceable Voynich" (Dec 18,  2:45pm)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971218144047.990B-100000@mozart.micro-net.net>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail)
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I should probably explain that by "unspoken language" I did not mean
unspeakable. After all we are able to talk math or chemistry without
necessary recourse to graphical notation, up to a point at least. I
was thinking of a script meant to encode concepts but not necessarilly
mapped to syllabic or alphabetic phonemes. But I will agree that the
VMS text allows the "illusion" of pronunciability.

Jacques, I am curious to know how/why you pick these assignments for your
program? Are they tweeked to take advantage of the actual CV frequencies?

-Joao

On Dec 18,  2:45pm, Dennis wrote:
> Subject: Jacques' Pronounceable Voynich
> 	In the archives I found a TRANSLIT script for Jacques'
> pronounceable Voynich.  Only minor changes are needed to use it with
> BITRANS.  The script goes from Currier to gpr (Guy Pronounceable).
>
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 13:00:02 EST
> From: j.guy@trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
> To: voynich@rand.org
> Subject: Pronounceable Voynich
>
>
> For those who feel so inclined, here are the rules for
> translating from Currier's notation into pronounceable
> Voynich using my program TRANSLIT. What good is it? I find
> that looking at something that seems easily pronounceable
> helps at recognizing patterns. Here:
> 4=h
> 8=b
> 9=a
> 2=s
> E=m
> R=y
> S=r
> Z=l
> P=t
> B=p
> F=k
> V=f
> Q=tir
> W=pir
> X=kir
> Y=fir
> G=im
> H=um
> 1=nim
> T=iy
> U=ny
> 0=iny
> D=u
> II=n
> N=iu
> M=nu
> 3=inu
> J=ng
> K=ing
> L=ung
> 5=ning
> 6=eng
> 7=eng
> A=a
> CC=a
> C=e
> O=o
> I=i
> /=.
> .=.
> ,=,
> #=#
> -==
> *=*
>
>
>
>
>-- End of excerpt from Dennis



-- 
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"When I hear the word 'evolutionary'... I reach for my extinguisher!"

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 19:49:08 1997
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Message-ID: <3499C34B.F6F9BCF9@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:43:57 -0500
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: All I want for Christmas...
References: <C1256571.005CB65F.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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> How about a challenge?
> EVA is 'good but not great' when it comes to pronouncibility.
> There are common words like 'chcthy' (SX9 or SQ9) which are
> problematic. Who can come up with the best scheme?
> I vaguely remember something in the archive which was
> very impressive.
> Any takers?
>
> Cheers, Rene

      Hmmm.... I wonder if I seriously charged forward with this avenue if
I'd lose all contact with my family over the holidays 8-).  No, although
most of the alphabetic schemes I've been playing with result in
pronounceable forms of text - they are quite unreliable at following
'strict' rules.  Of course every language has exceptions to rules...
Anyway, I'm not quite ready to throw caution to the wind and present my
lastest scheme of --syllabic unless-- system.

       Well, 'Tis the Season to wish one and all a Merry Christmas - and to
reflect upon our greed! - All I want for Christmas is a true-colour copy of
the VMS and Gabriel/Rene's complete EVA file!

At present I'm trying to alphabetize (using my modified EVA) a complete
list of labels --  On page F80r are the 2nd/3rd and 4th nymphs all labeled
as okolo?  If I ever get this completed (and I intend on including all the
zodiac labels) I'll post it on the net as it will be quite large for
E-mail. Quite a few of the labels appear to be identical - despite the
object being labeled.

        Well, Merry Christmas all!

                                        John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 01:57:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:52:47 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Suggested experiment for you
To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: madimi@internetmci.com <madimi@internetmci.com>
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 1:19 PM
Subject: Suggested experiment for you


>May I suggest an experiment (if you haven't already done this):
>
> take a chunk of English plaintext from the period (Dee, Anthony
>    Askham, etc.)
> encipher it into Voynichese using the alphabet grid you've
>    derived -- just invert the deciphering method you've been using
>    with the same sequence of alphabet shifts, etc.
> compute the 1st and 2cd order entropies of the enciphered text
> compare with the 1st and 2cd order entropies of a sample of
>    Voynich text of the same length


>From the very beginning I have stated that language is a very important part
of the Voynich cipher, and that I would consider the Voynich clear text to
be something akin to an artificial language.  This is a point I think I have
not expressed enough.  Let me clarify.

The author seemed more preoccupied with the overall appearance of the cipher
script than the actual language used in the cleartext.  He went to great
lengths to conceal the underlying language.  (See the language
representations from Strong's notes for examples).  You and I would encrypt
"King Henry", but the author chose to encrypt "Kengs Gonroe".  The reason
for this was twofold.  He chose to mask the cipher distribution with odd
language distribution, and, he fell into a pattern of encipherment that
involved the number "2".  The language B examples were written later, and
they contain even more of this pattern than the first written pages.  What I
am saying in effect is that he came to know that when the cleartext was "ch"
he would write "40" in a certain alphabet.  (Just an example.)  This is also
the problem in the language B pages that does not surface in language A.
The author makes too many mistakes here.  Earlier pages are far more
carefully created.  It is my opinion - not educated - that the herbal
section was completed very quickly, but the rest of the manuscript dragged
on.  Just a feeling.

As an example of what I mean by created (or concocted) language, a section
of my many cookbooks talks about the proper use of red peppers, a food I
love so dearly.  It might say "Red peppers are best picked in the autumn and
hung out to dry.  Peppers treated in this way are the best for use in
cooking."  In Voynichese,  this might be said as "Rot pfefer avtvmn drid wil
do nicly to kook."  The Voynich author has removed nothing essential from
the recipe, but it is clearly written as if he alone is to extract its
meaning.  Entropy studies of this linguistic manipulation will yield very
little, although you are more than invited to try them on Strong's pages.


Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 03:19:07 1997
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Jacques wrote about his own pronounceable 'Voicenich':

> Do not, repeat, do not, take it seriously at all!

The individual assignments of characters to sounds
should not be taken seriously, but this translation
serves a serious purpose IMHO. This was well stated
in the original note:

> What good is it? I find that looking at something
> that seems easily pronounceable helps at recognizing
> patterns.

When Jacques and I were discussing the EVA alphabet,
this particular table has played a big role, as witnessed
by the many correspondences.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 02:23:07 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:14:40 -0700
From: rmalek <madimi@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Re: Loglan again
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: rmalek <madimi@internetmci.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Loglan again


>
>    > [Rayman:] How do you build a language that has nothing to do
>    > with your base knowledge in the 16th century?
>
>Good question. Human imagination is amazingly limited,
>especially with regards to "ordinary" things like
>food, clothing, commerce, government --- and language.
>
>    > Tonal languages and languages that require declention have
>    > identifiable structures. ... Maybe I just don't understand how
>    > the Voynich could possibly be language, but I want to know.
>
>Voynichese is probably not a straightforward phonetic encoding of an
>Indo-European language.  As you say, the statistics and word structure
>are all wrong.
>
>But I still think that it could be an oriental language of the Chinese
>family (in the broad sense, including Vietnamese, Tibetan, Mongolian,
>etc.).  The same properties that led us to dismiss Indo-European seem
>to support the Chinese theory, or at least are not incompatible with
>it.  Some of those features are the narrow word length distribution,
>the relatively low number of distinct words, the lack of recognizable
>inflections, the three-part structure of the words, and the apparent
>absence of punctuation and numerals.
>
>    > If I were the linguist and I wanted to know which language the
>    > Voynich resembled, I would take a rather large sample of a
>    > language from the time period, (say 10,000 words) and compare
>    > them graphically against the Voynich.  Anything that came into
>    > range in the word match may be examined by character, or vice
>    > versa.  Once I found a reasonably matching language group I
>    > would attempt to explore that avenue and do my homework.  I
>    > would rather compare the Voynich to 15th/16th century anything
>    > than to modern Chinese or Polynesian.
>
>The problem with this approach is that the Voynich *script* was almost
>certainly invented by an European, so the sample you ask for does not
>exist.
>
>Even if we knew that the language was Literary Chinese, and we
>knew how it was pronounced 500 years ago, we have no idea of how the
>Vms author "heard" its sounds, and what his spelling rules were like.
>As you well observe, the "standard" English spelling in the 1500's
>was already variable enough.  Now imagine an European of that time
>inventing a spelling system for Chinese.
>
>Did he record the syllabe tone by a prefix, a plume, an extra vowel, a
>different vowel, a different consonant?  (Or did he just ignore it?)
>Did he use special letters for common dipthongs? Did he use two
>letters to indicate single sounds (like "ch" and "ee" in English)?
>
>If he was a German, he may have felt it natural and necessary to mark
>nouns by using different letters.  If he was an Englishman, he may
>have written "i" instead of "ai" and "o" instead of "ou".  If he was
>Italian, he may have indicated stops by doubling the consonants. And
>so on.
>
>For a comparison, we may consider the various systems that have been
>used in modern times to write Chinese in Latin letters.  The same
>name, pronounced the same way, is "Mao Tse-Tung" in one system and
>"Mao Zedong" in another.
>
>So, if the "Chinese" theory is correct, I don't think we can "crack"
>the spelling system, or even identify the language, by looking at
>letter statistics alone.  I think that the road to decipherment is to
>look for the semantics of words, regardless of their pronunciation.
>Once we know the meaning of a couple dozen Voynichese words, we will
>have some hope of identifying the language and unraveling the
>spelling system.
>
>--stolfi

You concede that the script was of western invention, and therefore that the
manuscript was produced in a western land.  I assume you also believe it to
be of 15th century origin, or thereabouts.  You must concede that several of
the plant drawings follow western tradition, and that the zodiac is a
western - not Chinese - zodiac.  The pharmaceutical section follows a
labeling tradition established in the west, and even the anatomical section
has no known Chinese equivalent.  Several of the plants have been identified
as western in origin, but not one has been identified as Chinese.  So far I
count six "Westerns" and no Chineses.  Everyone else seems to be looking to
Italy to explain many of the drawings and symbolism.  You and I share
something in common - we are not looking in Italy in the 15th century.

Your Chinese theory needs some ties that bind, and I'm sure you are the one
to come up with them.  Explain to me why a westerner would use
representations of western plants and western astrology and then write it
all down in a forgotten Chinese dialect.  Perhaps there is a missing
acupuncture page that ties it all together?

Better than that, document the moment that western plants and astrological
ideas were introduced into China, and find out which Chinese sects adopted
these ideas - hopefully they adopted them as readily as the Christian world
subscribed to Galen.

Regards,   Rayman

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 04:15:07 1997
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Subject: Re: All I want for Christmas...
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John wrote:

>  All I want for Christmas is a true-colour copy of the
> VMS and Gabriel/Rene's complete EVA file!

Me too :-)

Seriously, though.
Work on the transcription has not stopped completely but
is at an all-time low due to the fact that Gabriel is
moving house and simply needs the time to do all the
'fun' things related with that. Perhaps some time in
the course of January we can start the last stretch of
cross-checking.

A status report:

- We've both transcribed the entire VMS (mostly checked
  rather than transcribed).
- The EVA alphabet has been extended by three characters:
  <b> for the c-shape of n (c with curl up),
  <u> for the 'a with curl up'
  <z> for the non-descending EVA-m (Currier-J)
  These were the most frequent 'strange characters',
  all with frequency >10
- Weirdoes have been counted and sorted. They are
  classified into 'special characters', 'ligatures
  of normal characters' and 'ligatures involving
  special characters'. The ligature notation has been
  explained before: (chh) is written for a Currier-S
  with an extra leg. Special characters are represented
  by high-ascii (128-255), which, for reasons of
  portability and editability are represented using
  the string &nnn; where nnn is the decimal high-ascii
  value. A liguature involving a special character
  could thus be written (c'h&145;y)
- VTT and the Hand-1 font have been adapted to reflect the
  above: all special characters are present in the
  high-ascii area of the new font, and VTT can be used
  to swap between all notations. One run of VTT will let
  you convert the transcription file to RTF format,
  which, when viewed with MS-Word, will show the
  Voynichese with all the brilliant details of Gabriel's
  font, and all the comments and annotations in Courier.
- For use in Currier or FSG files, weirdoes can be written
  as $nnn; where nnn is the weirdo number. A bidirectional
  bitrans table to convert between the EVMT notation and
  the $nnn; stuff is available. With this, EVA can be
  translated to Currier or FSG and back, without loss of
  detail.
- Petersen was only human too. He missed one half paragraph.
  Still, his work is incredible, with many useful cross-
  references and it cannot be lauded enough.

Next up:

- The new EVA Hand-1 font will be made available (after
  Gabriel has unpacked his PC and we think it is stable
  enough)
- We spend some time agreeing on the final text.

But do continue breathing in the mean time :-)

> At present I'm trying to alphabetize (using my modified EVA)

John, could you remind me what the modification consists
of? Is it a matter of having a different correspondence
between character and symbol, or did you find that some
symbols were missing? If the latter, please let us
know, because if they are still missing in the new definition
and font, we should do something about it.

Merry Christmas to all,
           Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 05:07:08 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:04:43 +0000
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Subject: Re: All I want for Christmas...
Reply-To: G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
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Hello all,

On 18 Dec 97 at 19:43, John Grove wrote:
> - All I want for Christmas is a true-colour copy of
> the VMS and Gabriel/Rene's complete EVA file!

I thought that I would give some signs of life :-)
Rene has given details on how far things have gone (thanks!).
All this delay in my vms activity has been due to 2 bricks. Why?, 
they are now in place closing a vent in the room where my desk will 
be. Without those 2 wonderful geometric pieces we could not paint the 
wall, so I could not assemble back my desk and unpack the PC -- busy 
week end ahead :-(. Giving that my last night's plastering will still 
be in place in the next few days, then the painting and all the rest 
will probably go ahead and I preview that in January we will be back 
in vms business.

The EVA hand 1 will be released soon. I can say that there are 3 
things which I do NOT want to do again in the foreseeable future: 
wall paper stripping, bathroom tiling and font design :-)
(the last two are a bit more rewarding than the first one, though).

Rene has done a very good job with VTT; the RTF option works very 
well. We will be able to have the entire VMS that looks like the 
real thing using the new font plus all the comments!

The next step is to merge our transcriptions and try to solve the 
discrepancies. This will be no little job, so please be patient and 
bear with us.

Merry Christmas to all.

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 09:05:07 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:03:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: All I want for Christmas...
In-Reply-To: <C1256572.002D2E64.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
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On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

>    One run of VTT will let
>   you convert the transcription file to RTF format,
>   which, when viewed with MS-Word, will show the
>   Voynichese with all the brilliant details of Gabriel's
>   font, and all the comments and annotations in Courier.

	Hm.  If we got color scans of the drawings on Petersen's original,
and positioned these images properly in relation to the text, we'd have a
fairly good facsimile of the whole VMs.  I don't know if you can do that
in RTF, but I know you can in HTML.  With HTML, we could even  put the
whole thing on the Web.  You could see it if you loaded the Voynich font
into your browser.  

	Sound interesting?

Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 09:19:07 1997
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: voynich@rand.org
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On 19 Dec 97 at 9:03, Dennis wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
> 	Hm.  If we got color scans of the drawings on Petersen's original,
> and positioned these images properly in relation to the text, we'd have a
> fairly good facsimile of the whole VMs.  I don't know if you can do that
> in RTF, but I know you can in HTML.  With HTML, we could even  put the
> whole thing on the Web.  You could see it if you loaded the Voynich font
> into your browser.  
> 	Sound interesting?

It does, but Petersen's diagrams are quite diagramatic (althought his 
transcription is very good).
In html you only need to have the TTF installed and the browser 
would automatically detect it, but I suspect that this would work 
only in Windows, what about Macs, Unixes and all the rest?
I wonder how do the browsers work in all the other operating 
systems. Any info appreciated.

Cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 18 17:05:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:00:51 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Joao Leao asks:
 
> Jacques, I am curious to know how/why you pick these assignments for your
> program? Are they tweeked to take advantage of the actual CV frequencies?

My pronounceable Voynich is much older than Bitrans. I do not remember
precisely when I designed it, only that it was not a careful design
at all. It just came out of my head, a bit like Athena out of Zeus's.
Not the result of splitting headache, though, but I suspect, of late
hours and perhaps the influence of few drams of Talisker or a few 
glasses of Cooper's Sparkling Ale. The only "serious" part of it is
the values assigned to 9, A, and CC: all "a". I had been arguing on
this list that those three symbols were variants of each other, A and
CC being exactly equivalent, and 9 being an usnstressed "a".

The whole thing gave a sort of grand, Latin-sounding, language, good
for Ceremonial Magick (tm) and convincing the millions that the
VMS is the Necronomicon or the Lost Book of Albert the Great, or...

I think I went to two or three version of this Voicenich as I called
it. 

Do not, repeat, do not, take it seriously at all!

From jim@monty.rand.org  Fri Dec 19 14:31:07 1997
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:29:00 -0500
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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> John, could you remind me what the modification consists
> of? Is it a matter of having a different correspondence
> between character and symbol, or did you find that some
> symbols were missing? If the latter, please let us
> know, because if they are still missing in the new definition
> and font, we should do something about it.
>
> Merry Christmas to all,
>            Rene

    First, Thanks Rene for the update on your efforts... much appreciated.
    As for my modifications - they're really miniscule doubts that I have
between certain character variations... ie. If you check my
http://members.tripod.com/~VoynichMs/Index.htm  file, you will see a
distinction between the final character of line F9r10 and that of the
fourth character of f1r6.  The small loop at the bottom of the character is
the only distinguishing difference - and honestly, it is quite difficult at
times to ascertain whether the bottom of a character is just thicker than
usual or the loop is present.  Other characters that I've modified - and
keep in mind, that I truly have reservations about the minor differences
being important - are the last character of f8r13, the 'c' character I've
used in the f41 folio example, my versions of the Z character (I have two
versions although I think only one shows up on my titlepage), and lastly
with the greatest doubt -- the EVA 'm' character that starts with a 'c'
instead of an 'i'stroke --- it looks an awful lot like an 8 - and can be
considered as the shortened form of the f8r13 character above. If you look
at F39r16 2nd last character in my Titlepage - I've used it there.

                    The problem with my modifications, and the reason I
haven't pushed them at all, is simply that the variations seem to end up in
similar positions within similar looking words -- ie. they really aren't
different characters.  But alas, I'm trying my best to distinguish between
them just in case.

                            John.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Dec 20 05:51:08 1997
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From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 23 09:27:08 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C1256576.004C08BA.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:12:59 +0200
Subject: An interesting herbal?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Status: ORf





Dear all,

I found a reference to a  ME herbal with a name which
makes it immediately interesting. It is one time called
'Liber de Herbis Feminis' and another time 'Ex Herbis Feminis'.
If it weren't for one objection, a connection with the VMs
could be suspected. The objection is, of course, that
herbal experts would have picked up on any similarity
between the two.

On the good old principle of leaving no trail unchecked,
here are the things I know about it, and the things I'd like
to know:

It is contained in two extant MS:
Ms.Laur. 73.16: ff. 179r - 229r (Florence)
Vindob. 93: ff.134r - 158v (Vienna)

It enumerates 71 herbs, derived, at least in part, from
a Latin translation of Dioscurides' De Materia Medica.

Good old Alta  Vista turned up one reference: an article
by John Riddle in Journal of Historical Biology, to which
I have no access.

Here are the questions  (this may be for the expert(s)):
Is this herbal mentioned in Blunt & Raphael or Agnes Arber?
(I haven't got access to these either :-().

Is it illustrated?

What is 'feminine' about it?

Is it so little known that any connection with the Voynich MS
might have been overlooked? (Is it obvious I'm reaching? :-) )

Any information would be much appreciated,

Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Thu Dec 25 02:05:07 1997
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From: Don Latham <djl@montana.com>
To: "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: beyond vowels and consonants
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:02:34 -0700
Encoding: 190 TEXT
Status: OR



I need to put my thoughts in order. I am stumped, the mathematics of
this are beyond me for the moment, and I do not know where to look for
the solution (even though I am sure that there is a solution, discovered
perhaps long ago).

I had believed that my tree-reconstruction algorithm (GLOTTREE) would
solve it. No, not good enough, I think. I might explain why later, much
later, but let me now explain what I have come to think may work.

The problem: given a text in an unknown language, produce a grammar of
it, and a thesaurus (a monolingual dictionary if you prefer).

Consider now Sukhotin's vowel-recognition algorithm, which we have
discussed at length here.  Given a text written in an unknown
alphabetical system, it is very successful at guessing which letters
represent vowels, and which consonants.  It is based on this observation
that vowels tend to occur next to consonants, and consonants next to
vowels.

Let us generalize. A certain class of letters tends to occur in the
immediate vicinity of a certain class of letters. Or, if you prefer:
there is a set of letters V such that its members tend to occur next to
a certain set of letters C. At this stage, I would have liked to
continue: "in other words, the membership of V is defined in term of the
distributional properties of its putative members". But already I would
be getting into an awful jargonese, all the more awful that I do not
master it, being a linguist, almost entirely mathematically unwashed.
Let me rephrase that into plain English: if letter X occurs in the same
environment as letter Y, then X and Y are members of the same set... the
set of letters that occur in a certain environment! Put like that, it
sounds like a tautology, but that is exactly what is at the basis of
Sukhotin's algorithm, and Sukhotin's algorithm works. The proof of the
pudding is in the eating. So, there must be more to it than a mere
tautology.

Instead of letters, consider now words. "If word X occurs in the same
environment as word Y,  then X and Y are members of the same set". What
does that mean? And, more importantly, is that true?

Let me take French as an example. French (written French), or, for that
matter, any of the Romance languages, is better than English, because
its word order is fairly strict, and it has retained more inflections
than English (other languages would to, such as German, Russian, Arabic,
etc.).

Given the quirks of French grammar, UN ("a", masculine), LE ("the",
masculine singular) are most likely to be immediately followed by a noun
or an adjective, masculine, singular. E.g. UN BEAU JOUR (one fine day),
LE PETIT JOURNAL (the little daily,  actual title of a French daily of
the turn of the century), UN GRAND HOMME (a great man), UN HOMME GRAND
(a tall man - yes, French is a strange language, isn't it? I'm glad I
was born French: I didn't have to learn it the hard way). In other
words, UN and LE occur in the same environment: preceding a masculine,
singular noun or adjective. Same story for  UNE and LA: they are likely
to be immediately followed by a feminine, singular noun or adjective:
UNE GRANDE FILLE (a grown-up girl), UNE FILLE GRANDE (a tall girl), UNE
PETITE MAISON (a little house).

Now, that sounds suspiciously like  Sukhotin's vowels and consonants,
doesn't it? But there are already striking differences.

Sukhotin's vowels-and-consonants algorithm goes like this:

1. A,E,I,O,U tend to occur near B,C,D,F,G,H...Z, therefore they
   are members of a set {A,E,I,O,U}
2. B,C,D,F,G,H...Z tend to occur near A,E,I,O,U, therefore they
   are members of a set {B,C,D,F,G,H...Z}

Which French words, however:

1. LE, UN tend to occur near masculine, singular nouns or adjectives,
   therefore they are members of a set {LE,UN,...} (there are more)
2. LA, UNE tend to occur near feminine, singular nouns of adjectives,
   therefore they are members of a set {LA,UNE,...}

In the case of Sukhotin's algorithm we only had to cope with two sets:
vowels {A,E,I,O,U} and consonants {B,C,D,F,G,H...Z). In the case of
French words, we have to cope with, at the very least, four sets
already: {UN, LE}, which occurs next to {masculine,  singular nouns or
adjectives}, and {UNE, LA}, next to {feminine, singular nouns or
adjectives}. Never mind, let us assumed the problem solvable and solved,
and let us forge on. Occurring next to {masculine,  singular nouns or
adjectives} there will also be MON (my), TON (thy), SON (his, her) and
next to {feminine, singular nouns or adjectives}, there will be their
feminine forms MA, TA, SA. So that this algorithm (which we suppose
exists) will group together UN, LE, MON, TON, SON for occurring in the
same environment, just like Sukhotin's algorithm groups together A, E,
I, O, U for tending to occur next to consonants. Any other words in this
group? Probably. A masculine singular adjective is likely to occur
before a masculine singular noun, and vice versa, since adjectives
sometimes precede nouns, sometimes follow them. Wait... what is that?
Let us denote "masculine singular nouns" by MSN and "masculine singular
adjectives" by MSA. The members of the set {LE, UN, MON, TON, SON,
{MSN}, {MSA}}, tend to occur before members of the set {{MSN},
{MSA}}, like the members of the set {VOWELS}  tend to occur next to
members of the set {CONSONANTS}. Aren't we rediscovering French grammar
thanks to an extension of Sukhotin's algorithm?

One step further now.

So far we have defined "environment" as the next word. Define it now as
"all the words in the same sentence". For instance, in that last
sentence, "define" occurred in the environment of "it", "now", "as",
etc. Let us go back to the French example. LE, UN, etc. will now occur
in just about all and any environments, undistinguishable from LA, UNE,
etc.,  e.g. LE JARDIN DE MA TANTE EST PLUS GRAND QUE LA PLUME DE MON
ONCLE. We have just destroyed the algorithm's capacity to (re)discover
French grammar, grammar being a matter of which words are allowed next
to which. Anything left salvageable? Yes. The argument is weak, but I
know from experience, and the evidence of the experience is strong.
Sixteen years ago (how time flies!), when I was at the Australian
National University, a stranger barged into my office saying "Chris
Kissling [a Research Fellow in the Geography Department] tells me you
may be the man to know the solution. I have been collecting answers to
the question "what is a weed?". I have about 1000 answer.  What can I do
with them?"  Uh! I had no idea... "Let me have access at your data, and
I'll see". What got over me, I do not know. I had been working on the
automatic reconstruction of the genealogical trees of language families.
Off the top of my head, I applied the same algorithms to matrices of
word co-occurrence frequencies computed from the answers to "what is a
weed". Lo and behold!  When the "environment" was defined as "all the
words in the answer", THING and SOMETHING turned up in the same cluster,
GARDEN, PLACE, and BACKYARD in another, and... that really knocked over,
OBNOXIOUS and UNWANTED in another. Why? I could not figure out at the
time, and it is only much, much later that I thought that, grammatical
constraints having been destroyed as it were by looking beyond the
immediately adjacent words, whatever could be left had to be semantic
constraints. Hmm... come to think of it,  shouldn't it have been obvious
in the first place? We can often guess at the general meaning of an
obscure word from its context. Add three cups of glumfud and bring to a
quick boil. Whatever glumfud is, it seems to be an ingredient in a
cooking recipe, doesn't it? Hence edible, so, some sort of foodstuff,
wouldn't you think?

Back to Sukhotin's algorithm. Consider a strict CV language, in which a
consonant is always followed by a vowel, and a vowel by a consonant, and
let us count how many times each letter occurs followed by another:

  A B I K P U
A n o n o o n
B o n o n n o
I n o n o o n
K o n o n n o
P o n o n n o
U n o n o o n

Key: o = often
     n = never

After vowels have been identified as vowels, and clustered together,
we have:

  A I U B K P
A n n n o o o
I n n n o o o
U n n n o o o
B o o o n n n
K o o o n n n
P o o o n n n

What does Sukhotin's algorithm do then? Given a frequency matrix, it
reorders its rows and columns so that low-frequency cells are clustered
with low-frequency cells and high-frequency cells with high-frequency
cells. For want of a better term, I will call it "partitioning a
frequency matrix into its immediate components" (is there another,
proper term? Let me know). Sukhotin's algorithm always effects a 2x2
partition, vowels vs consonants. But what we want here is an algorithm
that effects an n-way partition, WITHOUT n being specified (very
important). Is there such an algorithm? I suspect that it must
necessarily exist, even though we may not know what it is.

Enough for today. More in the next instalment.

References.

Finch, Steven. 1993. Finding Structure in Language. Ph.D. thesis.
Edinburgh.

Guy, Jacques. 1991. Vowel Identification: an Old (But Good) Algorithm.
Cryptologia, Vol.XV No.3: 258-262.

Sukhotin, B.V. 1962. Eksperimental'noe vydelenie klassov bukv s
pomoshch'ju elektronnoj vychislitel'noj mashiny. Problemy strukturnoj
lingvistiki. 234:198-206.

I dunno, Jacques. Sounds like cluster analysis to me.   These techniques are all related in some way to bases in a vector space. 
Merry Christmas
Don

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 24 19:23:08 1997
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Message-Id: <34A2B1A3.3DE5@trl.telstra.com.au>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:18:59 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
Reply-To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: VMS: beyond vowels and consonants
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Status: OR

I need to put my thoughts in order. I am stumped, the mathematics of
this are beyond me for the moment, and I do not know where to look for
the solution (even though I am sure that there is a solution, discovered
perhaps long ago).

I had believed that my tree-reconstruction algorithm (GLOTTREE) would
solve it. No, not good enough, I think. I might explain why later, much
later, but let me now explain what I have come to think may work.

The problem: given a text in an unknown language, produce a grammar of
it, and a thesaurus (a monolingual dictionary if you prefer).

Consider now Sukhotin's vowel-recognition algorithm, which we have
discussed at length here.  Given a text written in an unknown
alphabetical system, it is very successful at guessing which letters
represent vowels, and which consonants.  It is based on this observation
that vowels tend to occur next to consonants, and consonants next to
vowels.

Let us generalize. A certain class of letters tends to occur in the
immediate vicinity of a certain class of letters. Or, if you prefer:
there is a set of letters V such that its members tend to occur next to
a certain set of letters C. At this stage, I would have liked to
continue: "in other words, the membership of V is defined in term of the
distributional properties of its putative members". But already I would
be getting into an awful jargonese, all the more awful that I do not
master it, being a linguist, almost entirely mathematically unwashed.
Let me rephrase that into plain English: if letter X occurs in the same
environment as letter Y, then X and Y are members of the same set... the
set of letters that occur in a certain environment! Put like that, it
sounds like a tautology, but that is exactly what is at the basis of
Sukhotin's algorithm, and Sukhotin's algorithm works. The proof of the
pudding is in the eating. So, there must be more to it than a mere
tautology.

Instead of letters, consider now words. "If word X occurs in the same
environment as word Y,  then X and Y are members of the same set". What
does that mean? And, more importantly, is that true?

Let me take French as an example. French (written French), or, for that
matter, any of the Romance languages, is better than English, because
its word order is fairly strict, and it has retained more inflections
than English (other languages would to, such as German, Russian, Arabic,
etc.).

Given the quirks of French grammar, UN ("a", masculine), LE ("the",
masculine singular) are most likely to be immediately followed by a noun
or an adjective, masculine, singular. E.g. UN BEAU JOUR (one fine day),
LE PETIT JOURNAL (the little daily,  actual title of a French daily of
the turn of the century), UN GRAND HOMME (a great man), UN HOMME GRAND
(a tall man - yes, French is a strange language, isn't it? I'm glad I
was born French: I didn't have to learn it the hard way). In other
words, UN and LE occur in the same environment: preceding a masculine,
singular noun or adjective. Same story for  UNE and LA: they are likely
to be immediately followed by a feminine, singular noun or adjective:
UNE GRANDE FILLE (a grown-up girl), UNE FILLE GRANDE (a tall girl), UNE
PETITE MAISON (a little house).

Now, that sounds suspiciously like  Sukhotin's vowels and consonants,
doesn't it? But there are already striking differences.

Sukhotin's vowels-and-consonants algorithm goes like this:

1. A,E,I,O,U tend to occur near B,C,D,F,G,H...Z, therefore they
   are members of a set {A,E,I,O,U}
2. B,C,D,F,G,H...Z tend to occur near A,E,I,O,U, therefore they
   are members of a set {B,C,D,F,G,H...Z}

Which French words, however:

1. LE, UN tend to occur near masculine, singular nouns or adjectives,
   therefore they are members of a set {LE,UN,...} (there are more)
2. LA, UNE tend to occur near feminine, singular nouns of adjectives,
   therefore they are members of a set {LA,UNE,...}

In the case of Sukhotin's algorithm we only had to cope with two sets:
vowels {A,E,I,O,U} and consonants {B,C,D,F,G,H...Z). In the case of
French words, we have to cope with, at the very least, four sets
already: {UN, LE}, which occurs next to {masculine,  singular nouns or
adjectives}, and {UNE, LA}, next to {feminine, singular nouns or
adjectives}. Never mind, let us assumed the problem solvable and solved,
and let us forge on. Occurring next to {masculine,  singular nouns or
adjectives} there will also be MON (my), TON (thy), SON (his, her) and
next to {feminine, singular nouns or adjectives}, there will be their
feminine forms MA, TA, SA. So that this algorithm (which we suppose
exists) will group together UN, LE, MON, TON, SON for occurring in the
same environment, just like Sukhotin's algorithm groups together A, E,
I, O, U for tending to occur next to consonants. Any other words in this
group? Probably. A masculine singular adjective is likely to occur
before a masculine singular noun, and vice versa, since adjectives
sometimes precede nouns, sometimes follow them. Wait... what is that?
Let us denote "masculine singular nouns" by MSN and "masculine singular
adjectives" by MSA. The members of the set {LE, UN, MON, TON, SON,
{MSN}, {MSA}}, tend to occur before members of the set {{MSN},
{MSA}}, like the members of the set {VOWELS}  tend to occur next to
members of the set {CONSONANTS}. Aren't we rediscovering French grammar
thanks to an extension of Sukhotin's algorithm?

One step further now.

So far we have defined "environment" as the next word. Define it now as
"all the words in the same sentence". For instance, in that last
sentence, "define" occurred in the environment of "it", "now", "as",
etc. Let us go back to the French example. LE, UN, etc. will now occur
in just about all and any environments, undistinguishable from LA, UNE,
etc.,  e.g. LE JARDIN DE MA TANTE EST PLUS GRAND QUE LA PLUME DE MON
ONCLE. We have just destroyed the algorithm's capacity to (re)discover
French grammar, grammar being a matter of which words are allowed next
to which. Anything left salvageable? Yes. The argument is weak, but I
know from experience, and the evidence of the experience is strong.
Sixteen years ago (how time flies!), when I was at the Australian
National University, a stranger barged into my office saying "Chris
Kissling [a Research Fellow in the Geography Department] tells me you
may be the man to know the solution. I have been collecting answers to
the question "what is a weed?". I have about 1000 answer.  What can I do
with them?"  Uh! I had no idea... "Let me have access at your data, and
I'll see". What got over me, I do not know. I had been working on the
automatic reconstruction of the genealogical trees of language families.
Off the top of my head, I applied the same algorithms to matrices of
word co-occurrence frequencies computed from the answers to "what is a
weed". Lo and behold!  When the "environment" was defined as "all the
words in the answer", THING and SOMETHING turned up in the same cluster,
GARDEN, PLACE, and BACKYARD in another, and... that really knocked over,
OBNOXIOUS and UNWANTED in another. Why? I could not figure out at the
time, and it is only much, much later that I thought that, grammatical
constraints having been destroyed as it were by looking beyond the
immediately adjacent words, whatever could be left had to be semantic
constraints. Hmm... come to think of it,  shouldn't it have been obvious
in the first place? We can often guess at the general meaning of an
obscure word from its context. Add three cups of glumfud and bring to a
quick boil. Whatever glumfud is, it seems to be an ingredient in a
cooking recipe, doesn't it? Hence edible, so, some sort of foodstuff,
wouldn't you think?

Back to Sukhotin's algorithm. Consider a strict CV language, in which a
consonant is always followed by a vowel, and a vowel by a consonant, and
let us count how many times each letter occurs followed by another:

  A B I K P U
A n o n o o n
B o n o n n o
I n o n o o n
K o n o n n o
P o n o n n o
U n o n o o n

Key: o = often
     n = never

After vowels have been identified as vowels, and clustered together,
we have:

  A I U B K P
A n n n o o o
I n n n o o o
U n n n o o o
B o o o n n n
K o o o n n n
P o o o n n n

What does Sukhotin's algorithm do then? Given a frequency matrix, it
reorders its rows and columns so that low-frequency cells are clustered
with low-frequency cells and high-frequency cells with high-frequency
cells. For want of a better term, I will call it "partitioning a
frequency matrix into its immediate components" (is there another,
proper term? Let me know). Sukhotin's algorithm always effects a 2x2
partition, vowels vs consonants. But what we want here is an algorithm
that effects an n-way partition, WITHOUT n being specified (very
important). Is there such an algorithm? I suspect that it must
necessarily exist, even though we may not know what it is.

Enough for today. More in the next instalment.

References.

Finch, Steven. 1993. Finding Structure in Language. Ph.D. thesis.
Edinburgh.

Guy, Jacques. 1991. Vowel Identification: an Old (But Good) Algorithm.
Cryptologia, Vol.XV No.3: 258-262.

Sukhotin, B.V. 1962. Eksperimental'noe vydelenie klassov bukv s
pomoshch'ju elektronnoj vychislitel'noj mashiny. Problemy strukturnoj
lingvistiki. 234:198-206.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Dec 27 19:13:07 1997
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:16:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: VMS: Beyond vowels and consonants, part 2.
In-Reply-To: <34A68AC2.400E@trl.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.971227153330.6670A-100000@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Status: OR

Congratulations, Jacques! You have just (re-)discovered the difference
between (most) mathematical languages and natural human languages --
idealization strips language from culture in an unnatural way, and culture
allows for polysemy disambiguated by context, which mathematical languages
do not allow by principle.

In natural human language, the sounds (or gestures in Sign, or symbols in
writing) and the ways of passing them on (culture) are two sides of the
same coin. When I learned the Micmac word for "thank you," I then further
had to learn that you say it in certain 'polite' situations ("please pass
the salt", "thank you") and you don't say it in other, heart-inspired
situations (as when a neighbor brings over some soup when you're sick in
bed with the flu; then you say ANYTHING else, because "thank you" would
imply that you politely asked for it, when in fact it came from the
heart).

PS -- I'm still rolling around in my mind the objective stated a few posts
ago of being able to come up with the grammar of a language that one
doesn't know. I'm the last person to say things like "science has proven
that the bumblebee can't fly," BUT ... form and meaning are also two sides
of the same coin, inextricably linked. It's what gives linguistics its
power to, as below, differentiate 'cup' from 'cup'. The force of 20th
century linguistics is that form and meaning exist in a delicate, subtle
balance that must be respected at the pain of risking nonsense otherwise.

Which is my sense of this entire VMs enterprise. Not that I'm disparaging
any current or historical work on it. Just pointing out (like preaching to
the choir) the fatal flaw in everything I've seen so far on this list over
the past couple of years. We have no meaning to balance forms with. One
would THINK that the illustrations would be helpful, given the thousands
of words that by proverb they represent. ;-) 

After all this time watching you guys, ostensibly the best we have that
have been drawn to this Great Mystery, I know little more than when I was
initiated into the Mystery by Terrence McKinna 13 years ago or so, and
that was after the British Intelligence and the CIA and god knows whoever 
else had had a whack at it over the centuries.

What we have here, in philosophical terms, is what is called a "limit
text" that tests our limits of intelligibility as a species. In any normal
society, this would be treated as a sacred text if not immediately
discarded as a fake. In song, for instance, the more sacred it is, the
more unintelligible it is in normal speech. I have been in Native American
Church services, for instance, where everyone knows the words to a song
but no one knows what the words mean (He-yo-wana-wana-yana-he-yo-wana). 
But, just as in glossolallic 'speaking in tongues', everyone 'knows' that
the words have an emotional meaning (if nothing else). 

I don't know where I'm going with this; I don't know what it has to do
with the VMs in particular. But there are very few real limit texts we can
point to, that take us to the limit of what we know and possibly what we
CAN know.  I believe our deepest assumption here is that whoever wrote
this (originally at least) MEANT something by it. That is either our
delusion or the kernel of truth that keep is going in human consciousness.

I am utterly fascinated that we can't yet crack it.

Are we confident of 'word spaces' yet? These would seem to me to be
relatively recent inventions of the alphabet, not obvious in syllabic or
hieroglyphic systems (I'm thinking of the Great Eskimo Snow Vocabulary
Hoax: there are either three or thousands of words in Eskimo, depending on
how you define a 'word'.) I suppose Vms characters have been compared to
weird writing systems like Georgian for similarities.

As baffled as usual, moonhawk

On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> I was saying: We can often guess at the general meaning of an
> obscure word from its context. "Add three cups of glumfud and bring to a
> quick boil". Whatever glumfud is, it seems to have to do with cooking
> recipes. It might well be edible, and, measured  as it is in "cups", it
> has volume, and therefore most probably weight.
> 
> Words that occur often in cooking recipes will be found in the
> environment of... words that occur in cooking recipes. Of course. But
> such words as "of", "and", "to", "a" occur just about as often in
> cooking recipes as anywhere else. They are no help at all in telling
> cooking recipes from science-fiction novels. It is words like "glumfud"
> and "spaceship" that help. A frequency matrix may look like this:
> 
> 
>   A O G C B S T
> A . . . . . . .
> O . . . . . . .
> G . . + + + - -
> C . . + + + - -
> B . . + + + - -
> S . . - - - + +
> T . . - - - + +
> 
>     Fig. 1
> 
> key:
> . commonly found together
> + often found together
> - seldom found together
> 
> A = and, O = of,  G = glumfud, C = cup, B = boil, S = spaceship, T =
> teleport.
> 
> The two areas marked with + correspond to two semantic domains: cooking
> recipes (GCB) and science-fiction novels (ST). Looks neat doesn't it?
> All we need to do is identify those + regions in the matrix. Sorry to
> disappoint you: things just do not work out nicely like that in real
> life, and in real language. "Cup" will be found together with words
> typical of domains other than cooking (sports, for instance), and so
> will "boil". All this will reduce the relative frequency with which
> "boil" and "cup" are found associated with each other and with words
> typical of their various semantic domains: cooking, engine trouble
> (radiator boiling), medicine (a boil), sports (the Davis Cup), etc. Let
> us be pessimistic... here is what we are more likely to see:
> 
>   A O G C B S T
> A . . . . . . .
> O . . . . . . .
> G . . . . . - -
> C . . . . . - -
> B . . . . . - -
> S . . - - - . +
> T . . - - - + .
> 
>      Fig. 2
> 
> All is not lost yet. Those "holes", the "seldom found together", still
> reflect the existence of two distinct domains: cooking recipes and
> science-fiction novels. We just need to identify sets the intersection
> of which is empty or almost empty: {glumfud, boil, cup}, {spaceship,
> teleport}.
> 
> I am surprised by what I just wrote. I did not expect it to turn out
> like that at all... But back to those frequency matrices. Consider
> a frequency matrix, such as that of fig.1, or fig. 2 above. Take any two
> words belonging to the same semantic domain, e.g. SPACESHIP and
> TELEPORT. The figures in their rows will tend to be in the same
> proportions as their frequency of occurrence. For instance, if SPACESHIP
> is twice as frequent as TELEPORT, then we ought to see it occurring
> twice as often in the environment of AND, OF, etc. as TELEPORT does, so
> that there ought to be a strong linear correlation between the figures
> in row S and row T. Likewise between the figures in rows C and G (CUP
> and GLUMFUD, found in cooking recipes). But rows C and S will have a
> weak, or negative, linear correlation. This is also true of language
> families. Imagine that the figures in those tables are the percentages
> of words that any two languages have in commone. If language S and T
> have an immediate common ancestor and if language S has retained twice
> as much from that common ancestor as language T, then the figures  in
> row S will tend to be twice those in row T. That is the metric that I
> had used, sixteen years ago, to reconstruct the genealogical trees of
> language families. It is also the metric which I used on my botanist
> colleague's data, and which gave those surprising cluster: OBNOXIOUS
> and UNWANTED, THING and SOMETHING, etc. It is one of the many that Finch
> tested in this 1993 thesis, and it gave the second best results. It does
> give good results, but it is mathematically incorrect. In atypical cases
> ("atypical" in the mathematical sense of it), it will cluster together
> languages with no immediate common ancestor, and "atypical" cases are
> far
> less infrequent in linguistics than mathematics. The algorithm in my
> GLOTTO software package is quite different and is not fooled by those
> atypical cases, and I thought that it would be the answer to clustering
> words by their semantic domains. No, it is not (have you already guessed
> wwhy?). Before I explain why it is not the solution, let me turn to
> another metric, which Finch tested in his thesis, and which gave the
> best results, by a slim margin ahead of linear correlations: Spearman's
> rank correlation. It stands to reason that rank correlations should give
> results on par with linear correlations. Why they seem to yield
> better results, I will not discuss. We are barking up the wrong tree,
> none of those approaches will work.
> 
> The reason is terribly simple. They are all clustering algorithms and,
> as such, they allow any one point (language, word, whatever) to belong
> to one and only one cluster (language family, semantic domain, etc.).
> But CUP belongs to several semantic domains: cookery recipes, sports,
> ..  and more I am sure... yes! card games and fortune-telling (the suit
> of cups in Tarot cards).
> 
> I don't know about you.  Me, I'm happy. Now I know that my announced
> "Son
> of Glotto" will not bring the solution, contrary to what I thought.
> Above all, I now know why. I dimly sense that there is a solution. That
> those "holes" in the frequency matrices are the keys to it. We need an
> algorithm that identifies sets with near-empty intersections. It ought
> to be easy. There may already be one, out there, somewhere. Anyone
> knows?
> 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sat Dec 27 17:27:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:22:10 -0800
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I was saying: We can often guess at the general meaning of an
obscure word from its context. "Add three cups of glumfud and bring to a
quick boil". Whatever glumfud is, it seems to have to do with cooking
recipes. It might well be edible, and, measured  as it is in "cups", it
has volume, and therefore most probably weight.

Words that occur often in cooking recipes will be found in the
environment of... words that occur in cooking recipes. Of course. But
such words as "of", "and", "to", "a" occur just about as often in
cooking recipes as anywhere else. They are no help at all in telling
cooking recipes from science-fiction novels. It is words like "glumfud"
and "spaceship" that help. A frequency matrix may look like this:


  A O G C B S T
A . . . . . . .
O . . . . . . .
G . . + + + - -
C . . + + + - -
B . . + + + - -
S . . - - - + +
T . . - - - + +

    Fig. 1

key:
. commonly found together
+ often found together
- seldom found together

A = and, O = of,  G = glumfud, C = cup, B = boil, S = spaceship, T =
teleport.

The two areas marked with + correspond to two semantic domains: cooking
recipes (GCB) and science-fiction novels (ST). Looks neat doesn't it?
All we need to do is identify those + regions in the matrix. Sorry to
disappoint you: things just do not work out nicely like that in real
life, and in real language. "Cup" will be found together with words
typical of domains other than cooking (sports, for instance), and so
will "boil". All this will reduce the relative frequency with which
"boil" and "cup" are found associated with each other and with words
typical of their various semantic domains: cooking, engine trouble
(radiator boiling), medicine (a boil), sports (the Davis Cup), etc. Let
us be pessimistic... here is what we are more likely to see:

  A O G C B S T
A . . . . . . .
O . . . . . . .
G . . . . . - -
C . . . . . - -
B . . . . . - -
S . . - - - . +
T . . - - - + .

     Fig. 2

All is not lost yet. Those "holes", the "seldom found together", still
reflect the existence of two distinct domains: cooking recipes and
science-fiction novels. We just need to identify sets the intersection
of which is empty or almost empty: {glumfud, boil, cup}, {spaceship,
teleport}.

I am surprised by what I just wrote. I did not expect it to turn out
like that at all... But back to those frequency matrices. Consider
a frequency matrix, such as that of fig.1, or fig. 2 above. Take any two
words belonging to the same semantic domain, e.g. SPACESHIP and
TELEPORT. The figures in their rows will tend to be in the same
proportions as their frequency of occurrence. For instance, if SPACESHIP
is twice as frequent as TELEPORT, then we ought to see it occurring
twice as often in the environment of AND, OF, etc. as TELEPORT does, so
that there ought to be a strong linear correlation between the figures
in row S and row T. Likewise between the figures in rows C and G (CUP
and GLUMFUD, found in cooking recipes). But rows C and S will have a
weak, or negative, linear correlation. This is also true of language
families. Imagine that the figures in those tables are the percentages
of words that any two languages have in commone. If language S and T
have an immediate common ancestor and if language S has retained twice
as much from that common ancestor as language T, then the figures  in
row S will tend to be twice those in row T. That is the metric that I
had used, sixteen years ago, to reconstruct the genealogical trees of
language families. It is also the metric which I used on my botanist
colleague's data, and which gave those surprising cluster: OBNOXIOUS
and UNWANTED, THING and SOMETHING, etc. It is one of the many that Finch
tested in this 1993 thesis, and it gave the second best results. It does
give good results, but it is mathematically incorrect. In atypical cases
("atypical" in the mathematical sense of it), it will cluster together
languages with no immediate common ancestor, and "atypical" cases are
far
less infrequent in linguistics than mathematics. The algorithm in my
GLOTTO software package is quite different and is not fooled by those
atypical cases, and I thought that it would be the answer to clustering
words by their semantic domains. No, it is not (have you already guessed
wwhy?). Before I explain why it is not the solution, let me turn to
another metric, which Finch tested in his thesis, and which gave the
best results, by a slim margin ahead of linear correlations: Spearman's
rank correlation. It stands to reason that rank correlations should give
results on par with linear correlations. Why they seem to yield
better results, I will not discuss. We are barking up the wrong tree,
none of those approaches will work.

The reason is terribly simple. They are all clustering algorithms and,
as such, they allow any one point (language, word, whatever) to belong
to one and only one cluster (language family, semantic domain, etc.).
But CUP belongs to several semantic domains: cookery recipes, sports,
..  and more I am sure... yes! card games and fortune-telling (the suit
of cups in Tarot cards).

I don't know about you.  Me, I'm happy. Now I know that my announced
"Son
of Glotto" will not bring the solution, contrary to what I thought.
Above all, I now know why. I dimly sense that there is a solution. That
those "holes" in the frequency matrices are the keys to it. We need an
algorithm that identifies sets with near-empty intersections. It ought
to be easy. There may already be one, out there, somewhere. Anyone
knows?

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Dec 28 15:13:07 1997
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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:05:53 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: k/t distinction?
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Below, I think, is another little bit of evidence for the claim that
EVA `k' (FSG D, Currier F) is just a more "cursive" or "sloppier" version
of EVA `t' (FSG H, Currier P).

Here are my counts of word "roots" or "midfixes" for a subset of the
Vms labels, and for the herbal section. (For a definition of "midfix", see
http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/97-11-12-pms/)


    Labels        herbal-B     herbal-B      herbal-A     herbal-A        
    by many       by Friedman  by Currier    by Friedman  by Currier        
    nwds midfix   nwds midfix  nwds midfix   nwds midfix  nwds midfix  
    ---- ------   ---- ------  ---- ------   ---- ------  ---- ------
      66 -t-       407 -k-      288 -k-      1045 -ch-     985 -ch-    
      55 -k-       183 -t-      155 -ke-      526 -sh-     470 -sh-    
      25 -ch-      179 -ke-     138 -che-     469 -k-      438 -k-     
      13 -che-     172 -ch-     127 -ch-      444 -t-      427 -t-     
      13 -te-      163 -che-    116 -t-       353 -cth-    298 -cth-   
       8 -sh-      110 -she-     88 -kee-     335 -tch-    280 -tch-   
       7 -f-       101 -kee-     85 -te-      297 -kch-    260 -kch-   
       7 -tch-      95 -te-      75 -she-     251 -che-    201 -che-   
     ... ...       ... ...      ... ...       ... ...      ... ...     
    ---- ------   ---- ------  ---- ------   ---- ------  ---- ------
     312 TOTAL    2431 TOTAL   1902 TOTAL    5967 TOTAL   5272 TOTAL 


These numbers should be compared with caution, since the labels were
transcribed by different people, may be a mixture of A and B text, and
almost surely use a biased vocabulary (say, mostly nouns and proper
names).  

Still, it is curious that the ratio of -t- over -k- is 1.2 in labels,
0.5 in B text, and 0.9 in A text---even though labels strongly
resemble B text on most other counts.

Note also that -te- in labels is much more common than -ke-, whereas
the opposite is true in B text.

So, while these numbers don't prove anything, they seem to support the
theory that `k' is just a sloppier `t'.

Hope it helps,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Dec 28 15:13:07 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: y/o distinction?
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And here is circumstantial evidence that EVA `y' (FSG G, Currier 9) is
just a common word-initial and word-final variant of EVA `o' and/or `a'.

Here are my counts of "prefixes" for all text words of the herbal
section (Friedman's transcription), separated by "language", and for
the subset of those words that begin a new line.

  herbal-A    herbal-A      herbal-B    herbal-B     labels      
  all words   line-initial  all words   line-initial all words   
  freq prefix freq prefix   freq prefix freq prefix  freq prefix   
  ---- ------ ---- -------  ---- ------ ---- ------  ---- ------
  3656 -       384 -        1234 -       136 -        194 o-     
   807 o-      154 o-        490 o-       58 y-        54 -      
   603 qo-     141 qo-       300 qo-      22 qo-       19 y-     
   424 y-      138 y-        216 y-       19 d-         8 ol-    
   201 d-       71 d-         57 ol-      17 o-         4 d-     
    55 s-       17 s-         35 d-        9 l-         3 dy-    
    33 ol-      11 so-        26 l-        6 ol-        2 a-     
    20 so-       7 oy-        10 dy-       1 a-         2 da-    
    15 l-        6 ol-         9 a-        1 al-        2 dar-   
    13 dy-       4 l-          6 s-        1 ara-       2 so-    
    12 r-        4 yo-         5 al-       1 dy-        1 adair- 
    10 oy-       3 dy-         3 a:i-      1 lo-        1 al-    
   ... ...     ... ...       ... ...     ... ...      ... ...     
  ---- ------ ---- ------   ---- ------ ---- ------  ---- ------
  5967 TOTAL   968 TOTAL    2431 TOTAL   282 TOTAL    312 TOTAL 
 
Going from the "all words" columns to "line-initial" columns, we see that

  * In language A, the ratio y-/o- increases from 0.53 to 0.90;
    In language B, that same ratio increases from 0.44 to 3.41.
      
  * In language A, the ratio {o-,y-}/qo- goes from 2.04 to 2.07;
    In language B, that same ratio increases from  2.35 to 3.40.
    
While these numbers can be explained in other ways, it is curious that
the y-/o- ratio gets multiplied by 8 among line-initial words, while
most other ratios (including those that involve {o-,y-} as a single
letter) are pretty much the same as in the whole text.

The last column was computed from a partial list of figure labels,
transcribed by various people, mostly from Landini's file.  Notice
that the y-/o- ratio for labels is 0.10, much lower than either A or B
text.

Notice also that the {o-,y-} prefix dominates in labels, while the
empty prefix `-' dominates in plain text.  These numbers must be
trying to tell us something...

On the other hand, the `qo-' prefix is practically absent in labels.
This could mean that `q-' is an independent preposition, article, or
something of the sort.  Or perhaps it marks non-nominative
declensions of nouns...

Hope it helps,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Sun Dec 28 17:21:06 1997
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Message-ID: <34A6D064.2C03AF2E@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:19:18 -0500
From: John Grove <handley@fox.nstn.ca>
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Subject: 866 labels
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------91D0DFC7BC8FAF79C2D15AEE"
Status: OR

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------91D0DFC7BC8FAF79C2D15AEE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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    I've just typed up all the labels I could even come close to
transcribing from the copyflo.  I'll post them on a web page in the near
future (hopefully before 1998), but in the mean time here's a small
sample... You can plainly see how the same label is used on quite a number
of different objects/pages/context.  You might note a few peculiar letters
in the text file -- this is due to my EVA modifications and are only
present for the visual affect you get when viewing the EVA characters on my
web pages.

                    John.

--------------91D0DFC7BC8FAF79C2D15AEE
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otab abody               F88v (plant /dark roots/dark flower/?grasses at top of root)
otab Uhab           Taurus/l(5th/inner/vertic.barrel)
otab.r              Pisces(19th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otabal              Pisces(1st/horiz.barrel/facing right) 
otabaldy            Taurus/d(7th/outer/no barrel)
otabam              F89v2 (plant light roots/flower)
otabdy              F67r2 (below moon 4/12)
otaby               Scorpio (2nd/inner)
otaib chody         F89v2 (plant dark roots/leaf)
otaiborolGy         F69v2 (4th of nine sectors surrounding trees? with star)
otaiin otain        Taurus/d(8th/outer/no barrel)
otaiin              Taurus/l(7th/outer/vertic.barrel/dressed)
otaIKhy             F89v1 (plant dark roots/leaf)
otainy              Taurus/d(5th/inner/vertic.barrel)
otair gy            Gemini (8th/outer/no barrel)
otakaiman           Aries/d(3rd/outer/vertic.barrel)
otal ypcsaral       Aries/d(10th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otal                F101v (plant/dark conical leaves/flowers/light stem/dark roots)
otal                Gemini (10th/inner/no barrel)
otal                Gemini (1st/inner/no barrel)
otal                F99v1 (roots/light)
otal arab           Pisces(12th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otal                Scorpio (7th/inner)
otala.m             Pisces(17th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otalab              Pisces(2nd/horiz.barrel/facing left)
otalaiin            Aries/d(2nd/inner/vertic.barrel)
otalaiin            Taurus/l(4th/inner/vertic.barrel/dressed)
otalaly             Aries/l(1st/outer/vertic.barrel/dressed)
otalam              Gemini (16th/outer/possible male)
otalam              F99r1 (roots/dark/hairy/spotted bug?)
otalam              Pisces(3rd/horiz.barrel/facing left)
otalchy tab amGy    Aries/d(1st/outer/vertic.barrel)
otald               Pisces(6th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otaldab             Pisces(7th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otaldab             Aries/l(1st/inner/vertic.barrel)
otaldy              F99r1 (roots with bulb/light)
otaldy              F88r (plant category?/container)
otaldy              F101v (plant/light flower/dark leaves/root/light stem)
otalef as ainam          Taurus/d(9th/outer/no barrel)
otaleky             Aries/l(7th/outer/vertic.barrel/dressed)
otalGy              Pisces(13th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otalGy              F67r1s1
otalody             Taurus/l(3rd/inner/vertic.barrel/dressed)
otalsy              F89v3 (plant faded/dark leaf)
otalUhy             Gemini (4th/inner/no barrel)
otaly               Pisces(11th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otaly               Aries/d(5th/outer/vertic.barrel)
otaly               F84r (flow between vats)
otaly               Leo (10th/outer)
otaly yty           Leo (1st/inner/coloured star)
otaly               F88r (plant light coloured roots/dark leaf)
otaly               F99v1 (roots/dark)
otaly               Scorpio (1st/not in circle)
otaly               Scorpio (2nd/outer)

--------------91D0DFC7BC8FAF79C2D15AEE--

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 03:51:07 1997
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Chinese theory
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Status: OR


    > [Rayman:]  I assume you believe [the Vms] to be of 15th century
    > origin, or thereabouts.
    
Correct.

    > You concede that the script was of western invention,
    
Yes, it is hard to deny that.  

In fact, I admit that the general structure (text and picture
layout, paragraph shape, physical format) is of western design, and I
have no reason to doubt that the vellum is European.

    > and therefore that the manuscript was produced in a western
    > land.
    
Well, I don't think one thing implies the other.  The person who
devised the script may not have been the person who wrote the book.

There are many historical examples of a European missionaries in
faraway lands inventing a script for the language of the local people.
There are also many examples of those local people using such scripts
to write European-looking books about their history, knowledge, etc.

New World indians wrote several such books, still in the 1500's.  I
don't know of any similar examples from East Asia, but I haven't
looked for them.  I do know that by 1500 that part of the world had
already been visited by several European missionaries, and some of
them spent several years there.
    
    > You must concede that several of the plant drawings follow
    > western tradition,
    
If you mean the layout of drawing and text, yes.
    
    > and that the zodiac is a western - not Chinese - zodiac.
    
As far as the division into 12 months, yes. But are there other
characteristic details?  Are the zodiac signs original, or late
additions?
    
    > The pharmaceutical section follows a labeling tradition
    > established in the west
    
I don't follow you here. (Sorry, but I don't have (yet) a 
copy of the VMs.)

    > even the anatomical section has no known Chinese equivalent.
    
I can't dispute this.  But it doesn't seem to have a western 
equivalent, either.
    
    > Several of the plants have been identified as western in origin, 
    > but not one has been identified as Chinese.
    
My understanding was that those identifications were little more than
educated guesses.  Besides we have the "sunflower", and I noticed this
comment in Landini's file
    
  <f100r.t.5;C> {Brumbaugh's ``pepper''}2AR.TA2. [...]

    > Your Chinese theory needs some ties that bind, and I'm sure you
    > are the one to come up with them.  Explain to me why a westerner
    > would use representations of western plants and western
    > astrology and then write it all down in a forgotten Chinese
    > dialect.
    
You are assuming too much here.  We don't know whether the person who
wrote the Vms was a westerner.  Even if he was, he may not have
been the book's author, but merely a translator or compiler. 
And I am not convinced that the book's content's is really western.

But let's assume that the writer was a westerner.  In that case he
could have been a missionary trying to educate his converts, or to
impress the local scholars with the wonders of western science.

In any case, I see the Vms as an attempt to communicate across a major
language barrier.  The writer used Chinese (or whatever) with a
phonetic script because that was the only written language that both
he and the intended readers could understand.
    
    > Better than that, document the moment that western plants and
    > astrological ideas were introduced into China
    
There were several western visitors to East Asia after Marco Polo,
including merchants, exploreres, and missionaries.  The one who
apparently had most impact on China, specifically, was Father Matteo Ricci,
who lived there from ~1580 to ~1610.  Ricci was scientifically
educated and used that knowledge to impress Chinese scholars and be
accepted as their equal. He eventually learned to write in Chinese and
translated several western books, including Euclid's Elements.

It is possible (although not very likely) that the Vms was written
either by Ricci or by his students/friends.  That would have been
in the early part of his stay, when he had learned the spoken
language but not mastered the writing.  

BTW, I found on the web these interesting references
to a major character in the Vms story:

  http://www.columbia.edu/cu/casaitaliana/marco5.htm
  Umberto Eco lecturing on Intercultural Misunderstanding

  In 1569 the Dominican Gaspar da Cruz published a first description
  of the Chinese writing (in his Tractado en quem se contan muito
  por extenso as cousas de la China), revealing that the ideograms
  did not represent sounds but directly things, or ideas of those
  things, at such an extent that they were understood by different
  people like Chinese, Cochincinese and Japanese, even they
  pronounced them in a different way. These revelations reappeared
  in a book by Juan Gonzalez de Mendoza (Historia del gran reyno de
  la China, 1585), who repeated that even though different oriental
  people were speaking different languages they could understand
  each other by writing ideograms, which represented the same idea
  for all of them. When in 1615 the diaries of Father Matteo Ricci
  were published, those ideas became a matter of common knowledge...

  [...]

  As early as 1540 the Jesuit missionaries had sailed towards
  the Portuguese domain in Asia, Saint Francis Xavier tries to
  evangelize China, in 1583 Matteo Ricci arrives at Macao, and
  at the beginning of the XVII century starts a new approach to
  the Chinese culture, deciding to become "Chinese among
  Chinese".

  Let us return to Kircher. He was fascinated by the Chinese
  civilization and collected for years all the information
  brought back to Europe by his Jesuit colleagues. Thus in 1667
  he was able to edit an enormous, beautiful book on the Chinese
  marvels and secrets, China Illustrata (China illustrated
  through its monuments, both sacred and profane etc...).

    
    > and find out which Chinese sects adopted these ideas
    
I don't think we need a whole `sect' to justify the VMs.
One missionary and two local converts would have been 
more than enough...

    > [Dan Moonhawk:] After all this time watching you guys,
    > ostensibly the best we have that have been drawn to this Great
    > Mystery, I know little more than when I was initiated into the
    > Mystery by Terrence McKinna 13 years ago or so, and that was
    > after the British Intelligence and the CIA and god knows whoever
    > else had had a whack at it over the centuries.

I don't think this state of affairs is so surprising.

My favorite theory these days is that the Vms was written in a
non-European language, probably by non-Europeans, using an original
alphabet devised by an European.  (I have posted my reasons for this
belief.)

If true, this thesis alone would make Voynichese a very tough "code"
to crack, tougher than typical military codes.  A foreign language is
like a code with a 1000-page key (the dictionary) and a 200-page
word-scramble-and-substitute algorithm (the grammar).  

Such a "code" can't be "cracked" by clever mathematics or brilliant
inspiration.  Without knowing the language, and without a reasonably
long bilingual text, we can only hope to "scrape" a few bits of
dubious meaning here and there---with much effort.  My hope is that we
can get enough bits about the syntax and word structure to identify
the language.  At that point we will have to enlist the help of
someone who is fluent in that language.

Besides the language barrier, the crypto experts were handicapped by
the fact that the Vms was written by hand in an unknown alphabet.  The
transcribed text had therefore a lot of noise and data loss, which
invalidate many standard deciphering methods.

For instance, every tests I tried suggests that EVA `k' and `t' are
the same letter. If that is indeed the case, treating those two signs
as different letters has the effect of randomly splitting every word
statistic into two or more counts.  Then any pattern that might have
been visible in the combined counts will be masked by meaningless
patterns of k/t preference.

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 05:37:07 1997
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Status: OR





Stolfi replied to Rayman:

>> You concede that the script was of western invention,

> Yes, it is hard to deny that.

> In fact, I admit that the general structure ... is European.

>> and therefore that the manuscript was produced in a western
>> land.

> Well, I don't think one thing implies the other.  The person
> who devised the script may not have been the person who wrote
> the book.

I would say it is a good working assumption, even more than
that, that the VMs was written in Europe by a European.
Look at any oriental, S.American near- or  middle eastern
Ms from that age and see the overwhelming difference.
This does not narrow things down very much though. For one
thing this covers a huge area both in space and philosphy.
I was just reminded by D'Imperio that Singer, a known
herbal expert, kind of favoured the Eastern part of Germany
(which of course includes many parts no longer in Germany).

Very important also (IMHO) is that the author may well
have been writing about (or copying from) knowledge from
far away (e.g. the far East). He just applied the only
style he was familiar with. A while ago I saw a
Renaissance hand-drawn copy of an ancient scene of
several dancing girls (Egyptian or Hellenistic).
Sure enough, in the copy, the girls wore clothes and
hairstyles of the time of the copier and the difference
wasn't even that obvious.

So I agree with Stolfi that we cannot really exclude that the
underlying language is exotic. But I agree with Rayman
that the Ms was written by a European. I would add that
this was a European who had seen many samples of European
writing, and who had seen Ms herbals and astronomical
diagrams of not necessarily western European origin.

>> and that the zodiac is a western - not Chinese - zodiac.

> As far as the division into 12 months, yes. But are there
> other characteristic details?  Are the zodiac signs original,
> or late additions?

If the zodiac emblems are late additions (Manly seems to think
so), then we cannot be sure that these pages are about
the zodiac at all!
The only clue would be the roughly 30 starry nymphs per
page, which would represent the 30 degrees covered by
each zodiac sign. This has been given astrological meaning
since the earliest times, starting probably with the
Babylonians (Teukros/Tinkelos), translated into Persian
(Abu Mashar) and introduced into Europe by Ibn Ezra
(Spain, 10th? C) and Peter of Abano (Padova, 13th C),
first printed in the 1470's in Augsburg and also appearing
in a German translation in the 1500's.
The illustrations by D'Abano and later do not look like the
Voynich Ms illustrations at all, so if this is related,
it seems to be original in form.

>> even the anatomical section has no known Chinese equivalent.

> I can't dispute this.  But it doesn't seem to have a western
> equivalent, either.

Taken as a whole perhaps not, but there are plenty of examples
of western (and probably also eastern) anatomical drawings
which may have inspired the VMs writer.

>> Several of the plants have been identified as western in origin,
>> but not one has been identified as Chinese.

If drawn by a Westerner, they might not be recognizable as
oriental.
Especially, if drawn from verbal or written descriptions,
they would be drawn from components which the author
knew.

> My understanding was that those identifications were little more > than
educated guesses.  Besides we have the "sunflower", and I
> noticed this comment in Landini's file

> <f100r.t.5;C> {Brumbaugh's ``pepper''}2AR.TA2. [...]

The pepper is a very unlikely match, because it is green,
and looks just like curled-up leaves.
The Sunflower is much more disputable. Especially since it
is coloured yellow and brown...

> There were several western visitors to East Asia after Marco Polo,
> including merchants, exploreres, and missionaries.

50 years after Marco Polo: Ibn Battuta. He travelled through
India and learned the language quickly (a remarkable feat).
When he arrived at the court in China, he found life much
easier since Arabic was understood there!

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 10:53:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:51:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
X-Sender: ixohoxi@mozart.micro-net.net
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: VMS: Beyond vowels and consonants, part 2.
In-Reply-To: <34A68AC2.400E@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Status: OR

    It seems to me that we ought to be able to distinguish nouns from 
verbs.  
    
    Consider.  Articles [the a, an], possessive pronouns [my, thy, 
his, their], and demonstrative adjectives [this, that] form a class of 
words called DETERMINERS.  Determiners are always associated with 
nouns.  Nouns also have declensional endings [in English, just -s to 
indicate plurals; in other languages it can be much more elaborate].  
    
    Verbs may have auxiliary verbs associated with them.  They also 
have conjugational endings [-ed for past, in English].  
    
    Thus in each case we have classes of words and endings only 
associated with either nouns or verbs.  Furthermore, these 
words/endings ought to be distributed evenly throughout the text, 
without regard to meaning, semantic context.  
    
    So - here's a possible strategy.  Locate common endings for words 
and common words that occur evenly, at high frequency, throughout the 
text.  
    
    Then try to identify words that only occur with a certain group of 
words/endings, and other words that only occur with another, 
exclusive, group of words/endings.  The correlation tables that 
Jacques has discussed would help here, as would the raw output of Son 
of Glotto.  Subjective looking for patterns would also help - the 
human mind is much better at pattern recognition than computers are.
    
    Finally, determine which class is nouns and which is verbs.  
Looking at labels and at context and subjective examination would help 
here.  
    
    The encoding scheme of the VMs might well be such that this strategy 
wouldn't work.  But some effort along these lines would surely tell us 
something.  
    
Dennis


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 11:47:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:43:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Silly Theory for New Years
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    A Happy New Year to everyone!  Here's a silly VMs theory to amuse 
you over New Years.
    
    An Associated Press release of Dec 27, 1997, "Kaczynski fights 
plan for defense", discusses the defense plans of Ted Kaczynski, 
almost certainly the notorious Unabomber.  The Unabomber was an anti-
technology fanatic who sent mailbombs to people in the USA for over 
two decades.  Given the facts that the evidence against Kaczynski is 
overwhelming and that two psychiatrists have said that Kaczynski is a 
paranoid schizophrenic, his defense is advising an insanity plea.  
However, Kaczynski further demonstrates his insanity by rejecting this 
course of action.   
    
    The article also contains an intriguing paragraph:
    
    "Meanwhile, prosecutors say the Unabomber suspect's encoded 
journal is the cornerstone of their case against the mathematics 
professor-turned-forest recluse.  They say it provides a remarkable, 
step-by-step view of years of wrongdoing -- in the defendant's own 
words.  And they intend to have FBI cryptographer Michael Birch lay 
out his 'translation' [sic] of the entire document to jurors."  
    
    Hmmmm......
    
    I've always wondered whether the Polish alchemist Sendivogius 
wrote the VMs.  Perhaps he did -- and was also an ancestor, or 
previous incarnation, of Ted Kaczynski.  
    
    The Poles are notably expert with ciphers.  They broke the German 
Enigma machine a few years after the Germans introduced it into 
service, and read Enigma traffic for most of the 30's!  And, of 
course, Wilfrid Voynich was a Pole! 
    
    The VMs was Sendivogius' manual for explosive manufacture.  The 
star diagrams do not show stars, but multiple explosions!  The zodiac 
emblems were added by a later hand.   The herbal folios show and 
describe the different plants he used to make explosives.  The 
pharmaceutical folios show the combinations of plants used for 
different explosives.  The text-only folios give directions for 
preparing the explosives.   
    
    The biological folios, and other folios with women in tubs, show 
Sendivogius' slave wenches treading the plant mixtures in water into a 
herbal infusion.  In many cases, one sees water draining from the 
tubs.  The remaining sediments and crystals then air-dried into the 
finished explosive.  

    Sendivogius' career lasted much longer than Kaczynski's.  The 
difference between A and B is his style changing over time.   
    
    Sendivogius was plainly a much better crippie than Kaczynski.  
Even so, it might help to know how Kaczynski's cipher worked.  It 
would be even better to ask FBI cryptologist Michael Birch to join the 
Third Study Group.  
    
    Seriously now -- Happy New Year, everyone!
    
Dennis         


From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 16:15:08 1997
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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:13:06 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199712292113.QAA19075@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <34A68AC2.400E@trl.telstra.com.au> (message from Jacques Guy on
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:22:10 -0800)
Subject: Re: VMS: Beyond vowels and consonants, part 2.
Status: OR


> I don't know about you.  Me, I'm happy. Now I know that my announced "Son of
> Glotto" will not bring the solution, contrary to what I thought.  Above all,
> I now know why. I dimly sense that there is a solution. That those "holes"
> in the frequency matrices are the keys to it. We need an algorithm that
> identifies sets with near-empty intersections. It ought to be easy. There
> may already be one, out there, somewhere. Anyone knows?

*If* one is willing to make the dubious assumption that each word ("lexeme"
is perhaps a better, more technical term) has a principle meaning/use, with
over 50% of the usages reflecting that, then one could perhaps attempt to
modify standard clustering algorithms by applying principles from robust
estimation. I'd have to think a bot about what the best ways of doing that
would be, although I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't a substantial
existing literature on the subject.

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 20:13:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:11:38 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199712300111.UAA26572@krusty.eecs.umich.edu>
From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <34A925E2.6922@trl.telstra.com.au> (message from Jacques Guy on
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:48:34 -0800)
Subject: Re: VMS: Beyond vowels and consonants, part 2.
Status: OR


Jacques wrote (in response to me [on the subject of clustering in the
presence of outliers]):

> > I'd have to think a bit about what the best ways of doing that
> > would be, although I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't a substantial
> > existing literature on the subject.
> 
> If there is (and I expect there is), it is not the most popular
> of topics. Otherwise I suspect that I would have come across it.
> It is probably buried somewhere, applied to something utterly
> alien to language or writing.

I'll have to poke around in the online abstract indices I have access
to. I was suprised to discover a fairly large literature on robustifying
the Kalman filter -- I literature I hadn't seen any hint of in my readings
on either Kalman filters or robust estimation.

On second thought, though, the problem here is not outlying data points
but rather "corrupted" feature values for individual data points (caused
by mixing the adjacency frequencies for the different meanings of words), 
which is a whole different ball of wax.

Karl

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 30 02:35:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:24:18 -0200 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199712300724.FAA01444@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Another pronounceable Voynich
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Status: OR


    > [Jacques:] if we let him, he is going to reduce the whole Voynich alphabet
    > to one letter!

I'm working on that... 8-) 

Meanwhile, you may want to check a new set of word occurrence maps that 
I have just posted at
  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/97-12-10-word-maps/
  
I recommend, in particular 
  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/97-12-10-word-maps/f00-tot-o.html
which compares the distribution of many words, with the o- prefix
and without it.   

IMHO, the full maps, such as 
  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/97-12-10-word-maps/f15-full-kt.html
generally confirm the k=t and y=o identities, and moreover
suggest ch=sh.

Also of possible interest is 
  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/97-12-10-word-maps/f00-tot-s.html
which lists most common words, grouped according to the 
places in the text where they are referenced.

'Hope it helps,

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 30 04:03:07 1997
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From: rzandber@esoc.esa.de
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C125657D.002F2B88.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:57:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Another pronounceable Voynich
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Status: OR





Jacques wrote:

> praitusox complam as aclavii istem istesus iclotesusox cum ples
> istendus oxesus iplotas e s cum plavi istclavii istas as* iclotas
> iclotas dai

(etc)

> The pity is that I can't find the key anywhere! * stands for an
> illegible letter, but beyond that... it should be possible to
> reconstruct the code... all those "davi" must be 8AN or 8AM.

I think this was the start of f1r. I remember the bitrans
table was context-sensitive, i.e. 9 was -us when word final,
com- when word-initial, cum when stand-alone. The gallows
were pr, pl , cr and cl (the non-intruding ones that is).
The rest should be easy to reconstruct.
The h2 value of this text is likely to be even lower than
that of Voynichese proper, and since the above is obviously
a Latin magical text with entropy values close to that of
far eastern or pacific languages, the VMs is the key that
Roman garum and its Vietnamese equivalent are not coincidentally
the same. It seems that English Worcester sauce is 'cognate'
with this as well.  That must mean something too.

In:

> another piece of zaniness

there is a serious, valuable clue:

> I wrote that Jorge Stolfi would soon have
> reduce the entire Voynich alphabet to a single
> letter. Well, let us suppose that is correct...
> all we have to do is count the letters in each
> word: 5, 2, 8, 1, 2, 2... that is the cipher text!

This should be sufficient proof that we can never
accept any theory which says that the VMs contents
are meaningless.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 30 04:07:07 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
Message-ID: <C125657D.00313505.00@esocmail1.esoc.esa.de>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:02:09 +0200
Subject: Re: 866 labels
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John wrote:

> I've just typed up all the labels I could even come close to
> transcribing from the copyflo.  I'll post them on a web page
> in the near future

You may not want to be too explicit about transcribing from the
Copyflo, because putting that on the web would be against
the fair use provision.

Does your 866 number include single words which are not
near a drawing? That would explain why you have a few more than
we do.

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 30 04:39:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:33:13 +0200
Subject: Re: VMS: Beyond vowels and consonants -- concluded (whew!)
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Status: OR





Jacques wrote:

> I say "paragraphs" because they are the one significant unit
> of the VMS that we can tell. Words we are not sure, but
> paragraphs we are.

But doesn't the whole idea behind Glotto (or any other
algorithm that might help in this area) rely on the fact
that the text has been split into things we may call words?

Some miscellaneous thoughts about the previous series of notes,
which I am sure others will also have thought of:

- Choosing the correct definition of 'environment' is
  obviously a crucial point. Taking a sentence, which
  made Jaques doubt the usefulness of Glotto, would
  probably be too wide.  After all, in the vowel/consonant
  detection problem, taking a whole word as context
  would make the task impossible.  The parallel is of
  course not totally valid since there are only
  two groups to pick from in that case.
- I agree with Dennis that some interesting information
  may still be gleaned from closing the eyes for the
  problems and try it anyway. E.g. setting the environment
  to 'next word' in one case and 'previous word' in another
  case, and see if one of these two directions makes some
  sense.
- I have no idea how big the problem of 'word overloading'
  will be. Sure, some words will have completely different
  functions, but will they destroy the patterns or will
  they just be noise. If the latter, is our text long
  enough to make the noise 'not a problem'? This can be
  tried out on known texts in various languages.

About the Roman/Chinese connection once more: the silk
route and spice routes provide the earliest contacts
and I think the first Roman contact with
silk was indirectly, via the Parthians. Obviously, Marco
Polo and his family before him knew where to go, and
Ibn Battuta essentially followed the silk route, if I'm
not mistaken.

FWIW,
   Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 30 04:13:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:05:42 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Another pronounceable Voynich
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	<199712300724.FAA01444@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
	<34A9B318.5B96@trl.telstra.com.au>
Reply-To: stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br
Status: OR


    > [Jacques:] But k and t? It's tempting I know.  But they do not
    > seem to occur in mutually exclusive distribution, which would be
    > a piece of strong evidence.
    
My guess is that k and t are truly equivalent, and that the chioce
between them is random and unconscious.  (e.g. in English cursive the
horizontal line of "t" may or may not extend to the left of the stem.)
Whereas the choice between "a" and "y" is deterministic: "y" is used
in word-final position, "a" in non-final.  Hence k/t have parallel
distributions, whereas a/y are mutually exclusive.
    
    > I hope you will take more than a passing glance at my four posts
    > "Beyond vowels and consonants". You are probably the one to take
    > those hypotheses further and, perhaps, make them work.

Yes, I am even tempted to remodel my "sort-distr" hack into a true 
cluster analysis tool.

But my wife and kids will be dragging me away from the computer in a
few minutes, and I will not be allowed back until 4/Jan or so.

Happy New Year to all...

--stolfi

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 30 08:53:08 1997
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: VMS, not quite
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On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> An AltaVista for "voynich", with the language set
> to German returned a host of things, but to do
> with music:
> 
>              Hanspeter Kyburz (*1960) 
> 
>              The Voynich Cipher Manuscript
>              fr gemischten Chor und Ensemble
>              Ingrid Ade-Jesemann (Sopran)
>              Monika Bair-Ivenz (Alt)
>              Wolfgang Isenhardt (Tenor)
>              Ernst-Wolfgang Lauer (Ba)
>              Sdfunk-Chor Stuttgart
>              Klangforum Wien
>              Leitung: Rupert Huber (1995)
>              auf: col legno (7989), Nr. WWE 3 CD 31898 
> 
> 
> Found at:
> 
> http://www3.sdr.de/rso/chor/diskographie.html

	Pretty strange.  We ought to find out what pronounceable Voynich
they used.  Might have been one of your systems!  

	I still haven't figured this one out:
http://www.zog.org/

Dennis

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Karl Kluge wrote:

> *If* one is willing to make the dubious assumption that each word ("lexeme"
> is perhaps a better, more technical term)
no, it isn't, but it does not matter

> has a principle meaning/use, with
> over 50% of the usages reflecting that

I am not! (willing to make that assumption). Because I know
it's false. The catch is in "each". SOME words have a principal
meaning or use. That should be sufficient. Further, those
words need not have one and only one principal meaning or use.
All what is needed is that some words seldom occur in the vicinity
of some other words. Again: that there exist sets of words the
intersection of which is empty or near empty. I mean... their
co-occurrence distribution, not the words themselves.

> I'd have to think a bit about what the best ways of doing that
> would be, although I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't a substantial
> existing literature on the subject.

If there is (and I expect there is), it is not the most popular
of topics. Otherwise I suspect that I would have come across it.
It is probably buried somewhere, applied to something utterly
alien to language or writing.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 17:37:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:33:15 -0800
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Subject: VMS: Chinese theory
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		<Pine.SOL.3.96.971227153330.6670A-100000@haywire.csuhayward.edu> <199712290844.GAA06727@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
[Rayman] 
>     > and that the zodiac is a western - not Chinese - zodiac.
> 
> As far as the division into 12 months, yes. But are there other
> characteristic details?  Are the zodiac signs original, or late
> additions?

The only evidence we have that it is a zodiac are the
zodiacal signs. To me, they reek of late additions, by
someone who was trying to decipher the VMS. Remove
those signs, we'd hardly ever recognize it as a zodiac,
or a calendar.

>     > Several of the plants have been identified as western in origin,
>     > but not one has been identified as Chinese.
 
> My understanding was that those identifications were little more than
> educated guesses.  Besides we have the "sunflower"

The sunflower is a strange guess. Go and have a look at a real
sunflower. The VMS sunflower looks more like a quiche on a stem!
I once showed some of enlargements I had made to a colleague, a
geographer born in New Zealand. Presto! He identified a passionfruit,
a kiwi (aka Chinese gooseberry). Me, I see dandelion, and (I don't know
what's it called in English) chiendent, all good weeds in the
French countryside of my childhood. At any rate, plants come in
such a bewildering range of shapes and colours that it would be
strange if some did not look somewhat like those botanical
illustrations.

But back to the Chinese theory.

The initial-and-final group patterns first noticed by
Currier are typical of the Peking dialect of Modern
Chinese, which has such very great restrictions on what
may occur with what, that, with some six vowels and 24
consonants and semi-vowels, it only has about 400 different
syllables. Cantonese is much less restrictive, and
Vietnamese again less restrictive. It does not mean that
the VMS is written in Chinese (Peking dialect or other),
only that it has similar combinatorial properties.

I was reading a book on cookery the other day, especially
spices and seasonings (I should have made a note of it,
I did not). Contact with China goes back to Roman times,
it seems. As far as cuisine is concerned that is. 
A common ingredient of Roman cuisine was fish sauce, which
seems to have been made like Vietnamese nuoc mam. It was
called GARUM. How strange... GARAM is "salt" in Malay.

No, I'm not proposing that the VMS is a copy of a copy of
a manuscript of the later Roman Empire. Yet!

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http://www.aracnet.com/~eseligma/russka090800.2200.txt
http://www.aracnet.com/~eseligma/russka090800.2230.txt




From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 19:59:07 1997
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An AltaVista for "voynich", with the language set
to German returned a host of things, but to do
with music:

             Hanspeter Kyburz (*1960) 

             The Voynich Cipher Manuscript
             fr gemischten Chor und Ensemble
             Ingrid Ade-Jesemann (Sopran)
             Monika Bair-Ivenz (Alt)
             Wolfgang Isenhardt (Tenor)
             Ernst-Wolfgang Lauer (Ba)
             Sdfunk-Chor Stuttgart
             Klangforum Wien
             Leitung: Rupert Huber (1995)
             auf: col legno (7989), Nr. WWE 3 CD 31898 


Found at:

http://www3.sdr.de/rso/chor/diskographie.html

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 20:29:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:26:41 -0800
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So, I have been floating the theory that

1. there must be sets of words such that members of one set hardly ever
occur in the vicinity of members of another set;

2. that those sets correspond to semantic categories (grammatical
categories if the vicinity is defined as the immediate environment)

3. that a word (or letter) may belong to more than one set (hence,
semantic or grammatical category, and, in the case of letters,
phonological category).


I suppose I have to coin a few terms to continue. Call such
sets and categories "exclusive", because their members tend to occur in
mutually exclusive environments. That ought to be enough for the time
being.

Now, I am not saying that every word must belong to an exclusive
semantic category. For instance, grammatical words, such as "a", "the",
"of", etc. will be found to occur in the wide vicinity of any other
word, and therefore cannot belong to an exclusive semantic set.

Some properties of language under that theory.
==============================================

Word order.
-----------

Consider a language, like English, with a fairly strict word
order. Some words almost never occur immediately following certain
words. For instance, "the" almost never occurs followed by an article
(the, a, an), a demonstrative (this, that, these, those), a possessive
adjective (my, your, his...), etc... On the other hand, if you look
beyond the next word, right through the sentence, from its beginning to
its end, "the" will occur in the presence of any and all words.

Consider now a language with an entirely free word order. There is no
difference in frequencies of word co-occurrences between immediate
environments and wide-range environments. Consequence: such a language
has no grammatical categories, only semantic categories.

Sense and Nonsense
------------------

(Some may consider this a specious definition of sense and nonsense)

If no word of a text belongs to an exclusive semantic category, then
that text is nonsense. In a way, that is reasonable, it even amounts
to a tautology. If a text is such that there are no discernible
semantic categories, then either it cannot convey meaning, or its
meaning is hidden (encrypted). Careful, that does not necessarily mean
that it is really encrypted, or that the language of the text is
nonsense. For instance, a text may be too short to be decipherable, or
to convey meaning.

Note that a text can have grammar, but no meaning, since some of its
words may belong to exclusive grammatical categories, that is, sets the
members of which do not occur in the IMMEDIATE environment of others.
(Perhaps I should extend the terminology, and speak of grammatical and
semantic environments?)

I ought to pick other terms for "sense" and "nonsense". A text can make
sense, and still be nonsense, for instance: "six times two is one
partridge and five pear trees". But if the entire text is only random
ramblings, with partridges, pear trees, lords a-leaping etc., falling
into no particular patterns, then the text becomes meaningless (yes, my
partridges and pear trees *could* make sense: "partridge" and "pear
tree" may be code words for "two")


Language, Style, and Content
----------------------------

Consider a text part of which is in language X, part of which is in
language Y. The words of language X will tend not to occur in the
same semantic environment (i.e. wide vicinity) of those of language Y.
But this dichotomy betrays different languages, not different semantic
categories. Likewise style. Words typical of author X will an
a set exclusive of words typical of author Y.

I do not expect that there should be very easy ways to distinguish
between language, style, content. However, if a text is in two different
languages, there should be a very obvious dichotomy between the set of
words of one language and that of the other. In other words, the
frequency matrix will show only two exclusive sets, not what you would
expect of a text in a single language, where there ought to be as many
exclusive sets as discernible semantic categories. So there is hope 
yet.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 21:27:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:24:09 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: VMS: Beyond vowels and consonants -- concluded (whew!)
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Categorizing Paragraphs by Topic (or Language)
----------------------------------------------

I say "paragraphs" because they are the one significant unit of the VMS
that we can tell. Words we are not sure, but paragraphs we are.

The idea is about the same as for words. Paragraphs that deal with the
same topic will tend to contain the same words, with different topics,
different words. So, given a text of n paragraphs, you have an nxn
matrix counting the words each paragraph pair has in common. I do not
expect, however, that that approach will work well: too many words have
little semantic content (a, the, of...). There will be hardly any sets
of paragraphs with empty or near-empty intersections. Sure, you can try
and take into account the presence of semantically empty words, saying
something like: given two paragraphs of respectively M and N words, we
can expect them to have P semantically empty word in common,
therefore...

Rather, construct an mxn frequency matrix, in which m is the number of
paragraphs, and n the number of words. This matrix should have the same
properties as adjacency matrices, except that it is not symmetrical.

I am trying to by-pass the identification of words that belong to
exclusive semantic sets, and to take a shortcut to classify paragraphs,
or whole documents, by their contents. Perhaps that is unwise. Perhaps
one should first classify words by their semantic categories and then
only classify paragraphs according to those categories. I expect the
algorithm to be exactly the same.

Anyone has come up with that famous algorithm yet? (I am feeling 
lazy, too lazy to try myself)

From jim@monty.rand.org  Mon Dec 29 21:41:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:38:34 -0800
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Jorge Stolfi's posts (those in which, if we let him, he is
going to reduce the whole Voynich alphabet to one letter!),
those posts had me rummaging in the archives, where I found
an utterly irrelevant post of mine, rather ancient:

Subject: Pronounceable Voynich


Hark, O Mortals, the Divine Sound of the Most Mysterious Language
in the World:

praitusox complam as aclavii istem istesus iclotesusox cum ples istendus
oxesus iplotas e s cum plavi istclavii istas as* iclotas iclotas dai
oxusaor istiplus es complavii istedo icloteasus iclot*s dasavii oxus
revii ecluus eclies oxemeclus iclot*as davii eplavii em eplai
oxais cum itias iclotavii icrotas iprotavii
condasaiiste
* edas *us istem icroteus eusdas ist* ox iproteavii istedaxus
*istus itedus epliteus eclitem iteiclotus ex itus davi istes plex
davii istex iprotem istedus
davi *ecliedus
* condavi icrotixavii em ox icrotius conclavi isteistus icrotedam ix
epliste plisteus eclaiui ecliem eplai istedavi oxiplotus davii
isteus iplotius pledavii icrotus icrotedaumox iclotius iste endavi do
davi evii item edavii itedavi itdus eplavi d*i iclotus pledo
davii istiplotius iplotes ites istius plem item item ples item
iste item ist edai plistus plitus des itedavii iste pluatur
comite clitius itiplavi istiecristem diordusdo iclotus daiclotus

The pity is that I can't find the key anywhere! * stands for an
illegible letter, but beyond that... it should be possible to 
reconstruct the code... all those "davi" must be 8AN or 8AM.

Never mind, here is another piece of zaniness, recent that one,
just a few minutes old. I wrote that Jorge Stolfi would soon have
reduce the entire Voynich alphabet to a single letter. Well, let
us suppose that is correct... all we have to do is count the letters
in each word: 5, 2, 8, 1, 2, 2... that is the cipher text! All we have
to do now is decipher it. It ought to be fairly easy, all the more
so that we do not agree as to words begin and end, which leaves quite
a bit of leeway.

That was: the silly thought of the day.

From jim@monty.rand.org  Tue Dec 30 05:11:08 1997
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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:08:39 -0800
From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au>
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Subject: Re: VMS: Beyond vowels and consonants -- concluded (whew!)
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rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:
 
> But doesn't the whole idea behind Glotto (or any other
> algorithm that might help in this area) rely on the fact
> that the text has been split into things we may call words?

Yes. I assume that problem solved.
 
> - Choosing the correct definition of 'environment' is
>   obviously a crucial point. Taking a sentence, which
>   made Jaques doubt the usefulness of Glotto, would
>   probably be too wide.  

No, it is not taking the whole sentecne as the environment
that made me doubt the usefulness of Glotto, it is the
presence of so much "word overloading" as you call, polysemy
as my mob would call it. You see, Glotto, and any and every
clustering algorithm I know of, assume that a point (a language,
a word) may belong to one and only one cluster (language group,
semantic category, grammatical category). No language I know
has no "overloaded" words. On the contrary, "semantic overloading"
is a pervading feature of natural languages. "Plant", does that
belong to the botanical category or the industrial one? To 
both, or rather, either, depending on the context.

> - I agree with Dennis that some interesting information
>   may still be gleaned from closing the eyes for the
>   problems and try it anyway. 
> E.g. setting the environment
>   to 'next word' in one case and 'previous word' in another
>   case, and see if one of these two directions makes some
>   sense.

That is what I had done with the data gathered by my
ethnobotanist colleague. One environment gave clusters
with the same verb in its different inflections (plant,
planted, planting), another with gave clusters with
different verbs inflected in the same manner (planting,
pulling, ...ing, ...ing). Can you guess which? (hint:
what is likely to come after "have", planted or
planting?). It was all very nice, but only because we
knew English, and we could sort the sensible clusters
from the silly ones. But an unknown language? No, it would
be useless. We need a solution for those "overloaded words".
They are the cause of the trouble.



> - I have no idea how big the problem of 'word overloading'
>   will be. 

Big. I have been thinking about for quite a while.


>   Sure, some words will have completely different
>   functions, but will they destroy the patterns or will
>   they just be noise. If the latter, is our text long
>   enough to make the noise 'not a problem'? 

I have talked about that with a colleague here, a mathematician,
and he came up with the same idea I once had: conditional 
probabilities. No good. We would need a gigantic corpus to
afford to indulge in conditional probabilities. "Word overloading",
(aka polysemy) does destroy the pattern. I have been looking for
another angle of attack, and this is why you have been 
bombarded with those messages. I wanted to write it down
before it eluded me. I think that I am close to it. That
there is a solution, that it is not computationally expensive,
and that it lies in identifying set of words whose members
tend NOT to occur together.

 
> About the Roman/Chinese connection once more: the silk
> route and spice routes provide the earliest contacts
> and I think the first Roman contact with
> silk was indirectly, via the Parthians.
 
Or the Persians? I don't remember. Further, in a book
on Bali I brought back, there is a quote from an
early (16th century) Dutch explorer, saying that
if you speak Malay, you can communicate everywhere
from Persia to the Philippines. So Malay (the
ancestor of today's Bahasa Indonesia) was already
well established as a lingua franca 400 years ago,
on an even wider territory than it is now (try
to speak Indonesian in Teheran!).

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 31 04:37:07 1997
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To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:31:26 +0200
Subject: Re: VMS, not quite
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On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Jacques Guy wrote:

> An AltaVista for "voynich", with the language set
> to German returned a host of things, but to do
> with music:
>
>              Hanspeter Kyburz (*1960)
>
>              The Voynich Cipher Manuscript
>              f?r gemischten Chor und Ensemble
>              Ingrid Ade-Jesemann (Sopran)
>              Monika Bair-Ivenz (Alt)
>              Wolfgang Isenhardt (Tenor)
>              Ernst-Wolfgang Lauer (Ba?)
>              S?dfunk-Chor Stuttgart
>              Klangforum Wien
>              Leitung: Rupert Huber (1995)
>              auf: col legno (7989), Nr. WWE 3 CD 31898
>
>
The *1960 indeed means that he was born in that year.
He is a young Swiss composer who wrote this piece in 1995.
It has been performed quite a few times.
I'm mostly curious how he got the idea...

Cheers, Rene


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 31 08:57:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:55:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: VMS, not quite
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On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 rzandber@esoc.esa.de wrote:

> The *1960 indeed means that he was born in that year.
> He is a young Swiss composer who wrote this piece in 1995.
> It has been performed quite a few times.
> I'm mostly curious how he got the idea...

	It's been performed quite a few times??? Amazing!  I wonder what
transcription system he used - Jacques's, one of his own, or <shudder>
Levitov's.  

	This is very interesting indeed.  I've always thought that
Voynichese is pronounceable in its undeciphered form, and that it was
intended to be sung or chanted.  I think that Robert Firth said this in
his "prosodic hypothesis".  

	I'd be interested in anything more you could find out about this.

Cheers,
Dennis

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 31 11:25:08 1997
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Reply-To: <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
From: "Denis Mardle" <Denis.V.Mardle@btinternet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Webcrawler
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:54:44 -0000
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  From Denis Mardle

  Happy New Year to everyone.

 My tip for 1998 ( no doubt known to nearly all of you )
is to use the search engine Webcrawler when you know the
full URL, especially one given in VMs e-mails.  Then
go direct to the URL.   If required set it up as a 
favo(u)rite site.
 That is how I at last found
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5383/ignota.html
 It was the 5383 that gave me trouble with Alta Vista.
Nowadays I use Excite.
 For the newcomers the reference concerns Hildegard of
Bingen the 12th Century mystic and her secret language.
 Does anyone have access to the Roth reference also
another one giving 181 plant names ?

 Good luck        Denis
 

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 31 14:27:06 1997
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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:25:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Reply-To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: EL Voynich Translated Ukrainian Poetry
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FWIW: Found at
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/200/300/cius-rr-h/rr19-h/rr19.html

"B90. Voynich, Ethel Lillian. Six Lyrics From the Ruthenian of Taras
Shevchenko, also the Song of the Merchant Kalashnikov from the Russian of
Mikhail Lermontov. / Rendered into English verse with a biographical
sketch by E.L. Voynich. London: Elkin Mathews, 1911. 63 pages. (The Vigo
cabinet series, no.86). 

"This is the earliest known book of English translations from a Ukrainian
poet. The title on the cover reads simply "Six Lyrics From the Ruthenian
of Shevchenko." In fact, however, the book is about equally divided
between the poetry of Shevchenko and of Lermontov. In her preface the
translator stresses the difficulty of translating Shevchenko, "the peasant
poet of the Ukraina," of rendering into English "the haunting music of his
Ruthenian tongue." Had Shevchenko written in a language as accessible to
most English readers as French or German, says the translator in her
modesty, the volume would not have been published. "But if a man leave
immortal lyrics hidden away from Western Europe in a minor Slavonic idiom
... it seems hard that he should go untranslated while waiting for the
perfect rendering which may never come. Inadequate as are these few
specimens, they show some dim shadow of the mind of a poet who has done
which may never come. Inadequate as are these few specimens, they show 
some dim shadow of the mind of a poet who has done for the Dnieper 
country what Burns did for Scotland." The biographical sketch provides 
a vivid silhouette of Shevchenko the man. It gives a wealth of details 
about the facts of Shevchenko's life and his personality and is 
obviously based on the reading of such sources as his diary, letters, 
the autobiographical novel Khudozhnik , and the reminiscences of his 
friends. Voynich's essay does not attempt to mix biography with 
literary criticism: as a consequence, it provides a compact and 
concentrated biography undiluted by critical analysis or by quotations 
of poetry. 

 "Ethel Lillian Boole Voynich (1864-1960), an English novelist and
translator, was the author of The Gadfly (1897), Jack Raymond (1901),
Olivia Latham (1904), An Interrupted Friendship (1910) and other books.
The best known is the novel The Gadfly: it has been translated into a
number of foreign languages, including Ukrainian."


From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 31 14:41:06 1997
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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:39:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Voynich the Vampire
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	Here's the main page for this.  It's a role-playing game set in a
country similar to 19th century Russia:

http://www.aracnet.com/~eseligma/russka.html


On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Dennis wrote:

> http://www.aracnet.com/~eseligma/russka090800.2200.txt
> http://www.aracnet.com/~eseligma/russka090800.2230.txt

From jim@monty.rand.org  Wed Dec 31 19:59:07 1997
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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:56:46 -0500 (EST)
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
To: madimi@internetMCI.com
CC: voynich@rand.org
In-reply-to: <01bd0c4a$b727e440$f61637a6@madimi.internetMCI.COM> (message from
	rmalek on Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:52:47 -0700)
Subject: Re: Suggested experiment for you
Status: OR


Rayman,

Hope you had a good holiday, sorry for the delay in replying. I wasn't sure
if you were unsubscribed from the mailing list, so you may get two of this
message.

> From the very beginning I have stated that language is a very important part
> of the Voynich cipher, and that I would consider the Voynich clear text to
> be something akin to an artificial language.  This is a point I think I have
> not expressed enough.  Let me clarify.

No, I think I understand what you're proposing. You hypothesis appears to
be that 

	1) the plaintext is in a pseudo-English, which the author has
	   futher jumbled by

		a) greater than usual (even for the period) variation
		   in spelling, and

		b) the mixing in of words or perhaps even phrases from
		   other European languages

	2) the ciphertext being produced from the plaintext using a
	   polyalphabetic scheme in which both the choice of alphabet
	   and the set of alphabets is varied according to a key or
	   pair of keys (Strong's 135797531474 progression to shift
	   among alphabets and a Latin phrase keying the choice of
	   set of alphabets).

It's unclear to me if you believe there to be nulls in the ciphertext,
and if you believe that spaces in the ciphertext correspond to word
breaks in the plaintext.

Someone more conversant with ciphers than I can correct me if I'm wrong,
but 2) should produce a ciphertext with higher 1st and 2cd order entropies
than the underlying plaintext, 1a) should raise at least the 2cd order
entropy of the plaintext (and probably the 1st order entropy), and 1b)
should be pretty much a wash entropy-wise. 

None of which leads me to see how your hypothesis can explain the very
low entropy of the ciphertext. Which leads me to reject your hypothesis.

> As an example of what I mean by created (or concocted) language, a section
> of my many cookbooks talks about the proper use of red peppers, a food I
> love so dearly.  It might say "Red peppers are best picked in the autumn and
> hung out to dry.  Peppers treated in this way are the best for use in
> cooking."  In Voynichese,  this might be said as "Rot pfefer avtvmn drid wil
> do nicly to kook."  The Voynich author has removed nothing essential from
> the recipe, but it is clearly written as if he alone is to extract its
> meaning.  

In the absence of developed methods to cryptanalyse polyalphabetics at the
hypothetical time of composition, why bother? 

In the absence of demonstrations that the hypothesis you put forward explains
known statistical properties of the text, this appears to be no more than a
post-hoc justification for the degree of incoherence of the deciphered
plaintext (especially given the limited amount of the Mss that I understand
you to claim to have deciphered).

> Entropy studies of this linguistic manipulation will yield very
> little, although you are more than invited to try them on Strong's pages.

On the contrary, they raise questions about whether your hypothetical decoding
(and it's implied encoding) can account for the statistical properties of the
Mss.

Once we get done dealing with the entropy issue, if you think that spaces are
word breaks we can move on to the issue of the difference in word- and
line-final distributions and whether your hypothesis can explain that.

I'm not trying to be unduly harsh -- the above would probably be pretty
much what you would get from an average informed referee if you submitted
your hypothesis for publication. Unless you can use your hypothesis to
produce ciphertexts which show VoynichMss-like statistical properties,
then I don't think you're going to convince very many people you're on
the right track.

Happy New Year to everyone on the Voynich list.

Karl

