From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Apr  9 17:40:11 2000
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Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:39:59 -0400
From: John Grove <jgrove@omnisig.com>
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	I'm venturing into a field that I know extremely little about here... A
neighbour of mine mentioned that there are plenty of Neuronet
back-propogation character analysis applications on the market that
should be able to take a large amount of 'odd characters' and determine
with a fair amount of confidence - what is or what is not a single
character. 

	Does anyone know anything about neuronets and back-propogation, and
whether it has any potential use in the analysis that we're trying to
do?

	John.

4groves@sprint.ca
john@morewood.net
jgrove@omnisig.com

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Apr  9 23:26:48 2000
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To: "'John Grove'" <jgrove@omnisig.com>, "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: Neuronet applications?
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:25:58 -0600
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I've done a few neural network analysis examples, and have one or two 
programs that would apply (brianmaker, NeuroGenetic Optimizer)   What's 
done is to take the icon or other pixelated character representation and 
train the net to recognize it. This means forming pixel images of many 
examples of each character.  Then the formed neural net is used to test an 
example of the unknown. It's resemblance to the known character is thus 
quantified, and "belonging" can be established.   I think, first, that 
there are so few variants that a person highly familiar with the text could 
"beat" the neural net.  The fun might be in assessing A and B variants.
Don

On Sunday, April 09, 2000 3:40 PM, John Grove [SMTP:jgrove@omnisig.com] 
wrote:
>
> 	I'm venturing into a field that I know extremely little about here... A
> neighbour of mine mentioned that there are plenty of Neuronet
> back-propogation character analysis applications on the market that
> should be able to take a large amount of 'odd characters' and determine
> with a fair amount of confidence - what is or what is not a single
> character.
>
> 	Does anyone know anything about neuronets and back-propogation, and
> whether it has any potential use in the analysis that we're trying to
> do?
>
> 	John.
>
> 4groves@sprint.ca
> john@morewood.net
> jgrove@omnisig.com

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Apr 11 09:08:32 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
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Subject: More VMS images available at the Beinece site!
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Hi,

I happened to revisit the Beinecke image gallery site, and 
discovered that they released over 40 "new" images of the VMS!

Apparently the "new" images are just old negatives from the Beinecke
archive, scanned by IBM as part of a large "virtual library" project
they started with Yale some years ago.

Anyway, the "new" images are quite a find. Even though they are only
JPEG and greyscale, many of them have much better resolution and
contrast than anything we had before.  Even the color images 
that they had in the previous edition of the site now seem to 
have better colors. 

To get the images, go to 

  http://highway49.library.yale.edu/Scripts/db2www.exe/brbldigital.d2w/SEARCH
  
then search for "voynich" using the first search button on that page.

There are many little details that I can see in those images that
I hadn't noticed before. I will try to post a list later this week.

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Apr 11 09:48:17 2000
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PS. Be sure to scroll the "results" page (the one with all the
thumbnails), vertically AND horizontally. Some of the best hits (such
as 116v) may fall off screen, and are easy to miss.

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Apr 13 07:04:26 2000
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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:01:48 +0200
From: Chiphead <chiphead@chiphead.de>
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Hoi !

I just found this along the way - don`t know if ya know about it , but
looks good .

c ya
Chiphead

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/makesubjectpage

this one is really _big_ , about 1,6 MB

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Apr 17 06:08:40 2000
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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:01:30 -0400
From: John Grove <jgrove@omnisig.com>
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	While searching around ancient public bath links on the net, I came
across this interesting picture of a Strigil (Could this be the small
circular item held in a few of the bath scenes in the VMS?) Since I'm at
work - I can't quote exactly what pages that would be.

http://www.bowdoin.edu/dept/clas/arch304/baths/strigils.html

	John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Apr 22 19:39:47 2000
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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:42:29 -0400
From: John Stojko <oko@worldnet.att.net>
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Hi!

I just added another section to my Home page.
THE LYDIAN
I believe it should be interesting to VMS group.

http://home.att.net/~oko/home.htm


John

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Apr 23 07:17:08 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@dcc.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Strigils
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    > While searching around ancient public bath links on the net, I came
    > across this interesting picture of a Strigil (Could this be the small
    > circular item held in a few of the bath scenes in the VMS?) Since I'm at
    > work - I can't quote exactly what pages that would be.
    > http://www.bowdoin.edu/dept/clas/arch304/baths/strigils.html
    
That is a good lead! Indeed a bathing utensil of some sort would fit
the context quite well.

(I confess that I had never heard of strigils before.)

Below are some additional strigil images (courtesy of Google). All are
from classical Greek/Roman times; I wonder what bathing utensils were
in use in medieval Europe.

BTW, in several of the Greek images, from vases and statues, the
person holding the strigil also holds in the same hand a sponge and/or
a small amphora (aryabalos), presumably for oil. At least one of the
Voynich nymphs holds a spindle-shaped object; although the details
make it resemble a large flower, it could also be an amphora-like
vessel, possibly miscopied.

http://www.peterp.co.uk/ch2/fig1.htm
http://www.cc.emory.edu/CARLOS/class7.html
http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/Collection/Girl_Athlete.html
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?lookup=1990.01.1208&type=vase
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/sor?type=phrase&lookup=strigil
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/sculptureindex?lookup=Berlin%20739

An interesting quote:

    http://www.camelotintl.com/romans/baths.html
    
    After the hottest stage of the bath a slave might have the chore
    of scraping off the dirt with a strigil. Romans carried the
    strigil on a big ring, like a key ring, which also held an oil
    flask. Soap was unknown, so they used olive oil instead. Many
    other things have been discovered in bath-houses: tweezers,
    earpicks and nail-cleaners, as well as fragments of glass which
    were once perfume and scented-oil bottles. Seneca lived above a
    bath-house in Rome, and he complained of the `shouts, grunts,
    slaps... and the screams of those who were having their armpits
    plucked'. Seneca also thought that the baths were proof of
    society's increasing decadence, and was nostalgic for the `good
    old days', when men washed once a week and smelt of the farm and
    the army.

    ... The unfortunate Seneca, who had to live above all this
    activity, was bothered by the noise: `...the man who likes to sing
    in the bath; men who jump into the water with an almighty splash;
    and then the cries of "Cakes for sale" and "Hot sausages".'

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Apr 23 13:43:20 2000
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>
> Below are some additional strigil images (courtesy of Google). All are
> from classical Greek/Roman times; I wonder what bathing utensils were
> in use in medieval Europe.

I read somehwere that in medieval times bathing was considered in Europe to be
highly detrimental to one's health. So, could it be that, by and large, they had
no bathing utensils, viewed as devil's tools?  Mark


From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Apr 25 02:41:37 2000
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Message-ID: <39053E03.F431D62C@voynich.nu>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:41:07 +0200
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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On John Grove's:

> While searching around ancient public bath links on the net, I came
> across this interesting picture of a Strigil (Could this be the small
> circular item held in a few of the bath scenes in the VMS?) Since I'm at
> work - I can't quote exactly what pages that would be.
> http://www.bowdoin.edu/dept/clas/arch304/baths/strigils.html

Stolfi wrote:

> Below are some additional strigil images (courtesy of Google). All are
> from classical Greek/Roman times; I wonder what bathing utensils were
> in use in medieval Europe.

First, I was a bit skeptical, since items from Pompeii could not have
been
familiar to our VMs writer(s). But apparently, they have been found
elsewhere too. Question is: when?

Of the original picture, my interpretation was that the 'hooks' were
the strigils, while the round thing could be a mirror. The 'yellow
submarine'
thing in the VMs looks more like the mirror. 

> BTW, in several of the Greek images, from vases and statues, the
> person holding the strigil also holds in the same hand a sponge and/or
> a small amphora (aryabalos), presumably for oil. At least one of the
> Voynich nymphs holds a spindle-shaped object; although the details
> make it resemble a large flower, it could also be an amphora-like
> vessel, possibly miscopied.

So we may say that it is not unusual that a bathign person is depicted
while holding some sort of utensil in the hand. I agree with Stolfi
that in one of the pictures it really looks like a flower bulb. That
would be odd in a bathing scene, but not if the meaning of the VMs
illustration is more medicinal.

The other item (once compared to an ocarina) is still mysterious and
could easily represent some bathing tool.


Cheers, Rene

