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Date: Mon Jan  1 12:53:27 2001
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct  1 03:39:57 2000
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From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     Moreover, the blue paint on the "barrels" (and on the fish fins) is
>     applied extremely crudely. The coloring job in the other zodiac
>     pages is just as poor
> 
>     Once again it looks like the colors are not original, and must have
>     been done either by an extremely careless assistant, or by a child.

I've seen quite a few reproductions of medieval prints of woodcuts,
where
the same may be observed. Here, obviously, the drawing was printed as a
whole and coloured in afterwards. Often only some areas were coloured,
and the same careless transgressions of the lines may be seen.
So perhaps it is not so unusual.
 
I've never seen anything like the work of the 'mad crayonist' on the
bio folios though.
(Such as, e.g. fol. 75r at http://inky.library.yale.edu/voy/voy2.html)

Cheers, Ren

From reeds Sun Oct  1 22:25:44 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
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--- Forwarded mail from Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:14:08 +0000
From: Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Secret script of Simon Tadeas Budek

Dear all,

the following quote is from a message in the alchemy forum
(http://levity.com/alchemy/frm1250.html), dated 30 June, 1996:

> A prime Czech alchemist was Simon Tadeas Budek the Emperor's
> searcher for metal and gem. He abandoned handwriting for a secret
> script. This tractate is in Vienna today. Simon Tadeas Budek got
> his noble title "from Lesin and  Falkenberk" from Emperor Rudolf II.

While the sentence is not very clear, I cannot help being very
curious about what exactly is the secret script meant above.
Does anyone know what this 'tractate' could be?
I couldn't find it in Adam McLean's MS database (Austria) but may
have overlooked it...

Cheers, Rene

[ message/rfc822 ] :

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From: Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>
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Hi!

> > To my understanding, some piecemeal information about his spendings
> > have survived.

> Yes, doing archival research requires a lot of time. But there
> should be published inventories etc. to narrow the possibilities
> and know what to expect in advance. I will have to see what
> can be found without going to Prague (a wonderful place, isn't it?).

Lubos Antonin made a point of saying that he thought if anything like
that existed, it would probably have been found. 
I'm not sure...

> > [...] I asked Adam McLean, who asked both Lubos Antonin
> > and Vladimir Filipenko, with the same result. 

> You mean Vladimir Karpenko -
Oops, yes.

> I believe Baresch (or Bares with s-hacek) should not be
> called an "alchemist". He was probably just a scholar like
> the others involved and may have been a burgher in Prague
> or a Jesuit.

Well, the note found by Brumbaugh in Yale specifically says that Marci
inherited Barschius' alchemical library, and Marci writes to Kircher
in 1640 that Baresch is 'rerum chymicarum peritissimus'.
(see http://www.voynich.nu/letters.html . In fact, if you can suggest
improvements to the Latin translation of the Baresch letter, or in fact
the translation of the relevant bit in the early Marci letter, it would
be much appreciated)
The Baresch letter does not use any of the usual respectful formulas
employed by Kircher's Jesuit correspondents, so I doubt that Baresch
was a Jesuit. Marci also refers to him as D[omi]nus (in yet another
letter for which I have no transcription). 

I presume you know that you can see the letters as JPEG files,
if you register at the IMSS site. (Also if you don't, but
follow some of our "secret" shortcut links. Don't tell anyone,
but Stolfi has made an index page with an organisation
much better than the original site, using some clever scripts). 
 
> > My personal guess is that Baresch was one of the protestants
> > who helped put Tepenec in goal in Melnik and looted his place.
> > But this is pure supposition.

> I do not think so. After White Mountain he would have been dead
> or at least expelled from Bohemia - like Comenius and so many
> others.

I see.
Would it have been possible to be religiously neutral  in those
days? 

> Horcicky returned to Melnik and recovered his fortune
> - which he left to the Jesuit College of St. Clement. Thus my
> guess would be that (besides 50,000 ducats and his tenure of
> Melnik) he also left his library to the college (that should 
> be rather obvious).

If he still had it.... I agree. But it leaves a gap in our 
knowedge. 

> That history of Jesuits in Bohemia by Schmidt
> should certainly be checked in detail.

We did our best but this was 4 or 5 massive volumes :-/
And we only had 3 hours or so.

> > And even today I saw a very curious reference to one Simon
> > Tadeas Budek in the archived alchemy forum messages.

> I don't remember it

it says:

> A prime Czech alchemist was Simon Tadeas Budek the Emperor's searcher for
> metal and gem. He abandoned handwriting for a secret script. This tractate
> is in Vienna today. Simon Tadeas Budek got his noble title "from Lesin and 
> Falkenberk" from Emperor Rudolf II.

A confused sentence, but highly intriguing..

>> Marcela Budikova (whom we met in Prague) and
> Is she interested in doing archival research? 

Actually, she lives in Brno and is fully occupied completing her medical
studies. She has seen a copy of Vavra's original article about Horcicky
and I think also another source (something with Melnik in the title)
but hasn't had the time to transcribe anything. Unfortunately, she
doesn't speak German. (Her boyfriend, who is Slovak, also doesn't speak
English, but does have some knowledge of both Dutch and Portuguese. Can
you image the Babel during our Prague visit?)
Actually, during one afternoon we were also in the company of a friend
of Michal Pober called Denisa Kera. She has been involved in locating
the former house of Simon Hajek. However, she didn't really offer to
do any continued research and I didn't really dare to ask. She seemed
interested at the time and she now also has a copy of the Voynich CDROM
(as do Michal and Lubos).

> > (Let me know if you have not heard of the Waller collection,
> > because then I have some really interesting info for you :-))

> No, I haven't! I am all excited!

For a first impression (but there isn't very much), have a look at:
http://www.imss.fi.it/~scottian/eintrod.html
A 30,000-volume MS collection which has hardly  been indexed or even
browsed by anyone could be called a treasure trove, right?
I got the book mentioned in the first paragraph from the library:
 
M. Beretta, A History of Non-Printed Science, Stockholm. Almkvist &
Wiksell, 1993

One of the most intriguing items discussed in this was a 'librum
amicorum' of Stolcius v. Stolzenberg. This is reported to include
contributions from many of his alchemist friends. (I'm of course
hoping that our friend Baresch is among them - a long shot)
The page shown in the book was done by Cornelis Drebbel and has his
self-portrait in colour - very artistically done.

> They had tons of books and MSS from central Europe in Sweden,
> collected during the wars in the 17th and 18th c. Much of 
> that was returned to Bohemia and Poland (including the original
> manuscript of _De revolutionibus..._ in Copernicus's hand) after
> the treaty of Riga and later.

The timing is important. The letter from Prague to Voynich (in my
Praha pages) dates from 1922. I just found the old mail from Mats Rendel 
again, and it says:

> Thank you for your mail.  I have never even heard about the letters
> you mention, so this is completely new to me and, of course, very
> interesting. Time allowing, I will  make a trip to Uppsala in the
> autumn and see what I will find out. I know that the University Library
> in Uppsala owns some works by Kircher, but I know very little about
> their collections of letters. Much archival material from
> this period  has been lost, mainly due to the fire that destroyed the
> Royal Castle in Stockholm in 1697 and a similar disaster in Uppsala in
> 1702  that destroyed the university and its library. Unfortunately
> much of the booty from the wars was kept in those two places, and was
> consequently lost.

Depressing, isn't it?

Cheers, Rene


---End of forwarded mail from Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

--PART-BOUNDARY=.11001001222544.ZM7852941.research.att.com
Content-Type: text/plain ; name=".prt11744588Kd" ; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment ; filename=".prt11744588Kd"
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Dear all,

the following quote is from a message in the alchemy forum
(http://levity.com/alchemy/frm1250.html), dated 30 June, 1996:

> A prime Czech alchemist was Simon Tadeas Budek the Emperor's
> searcher for metal and gem. He abandoned handwriting for a secret
> script. This tractate is in Vienna today. Simon Tadeas Budek got
> his noble title "from Lesin and  Falkenberk" from Emperor Rudolf II.

While the sentence is not very clear, I cannot help being very
curious about what exactly is the secret script meant above.
Does anyone know what this 'tractate' could be?
I couldn't find it in Adam McLean's MS database (Austria) but may
have overlooked it...

Cheers, Rene
--PART-BOUNDARY=.11001001222544.ZM7852941.research.att.com--


From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  2 17:25:13 2000
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From: Karl Kluge <kckluge@eecs.umich.edu>
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Just got my copy. It's a shame the editors wouldn't give it enough space to
show all the pages at a larger size. I noticed the photos were copyright the
author -- did Yale permit Bruce to take his own photos?

Karl

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct  4 12:23:29 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:21:20 +0100
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Hi all
I did a small update on the effect of the alphabet on the entropy in 
the VMS. 

http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/commas.htm

(near the end, a new graph in various alphabets)

Cheers,

Gabriel


From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct  4 14:35:15 2000
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:34:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Sky & Telescope article
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Hi;
	I have finally seen a copy of my Sky & Telescope article, and
thought that the magazine did justice to the pictures.  Old-timers on this
list need not look at the article as it will be old-hat for you.  I did
have Rene kindly check it over for errors and made his suggested changes.
	I bought the pictures from Beinecke, taken at my special request,
and by their policy, I own the copyright to the pictures.  I will
readily give permission for any non-commercial copying.  But I figured
that I paid a lot of money for the pictures and I did not want S&T to get
the copyright which cost a lot more than they paid me for the article.
	Beyond exposing a fun topic to a broad new audience, I explicitly 
asked for anyone who might know of any precedence for the zodiac figures.
The hope is that their many unique features might be repeated somewhere
else and a match could provide a sure and desperately needed provenance.
	I have been getting a number of emails on suggestions or comments.
Some might be worth looking into.  In later messages, I will forward the
communications that might be of interest to our group.  I would appreciate
any and all comments, partly for forwarding to the originator.  But my
best hope is that the responses might trigger some 'Aha' reaction... 
Cheers,
Brad
schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu



From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct  4 14:49:57 2000
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:49:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Marche: VMS zodiac based on Hermetic sources going back to Dendera
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Hi;
	Here is the first fun email I received.  Again, I'd appreciate any
comments for forwarding (if you don't send responses directly to Marche).
Cheers,
Brad
schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:15:10 -0500
From: "[iso-8859-1] \"Theresa A. March\"" <tamarche@facstaff.wisc.edu>
To: bradley.schaefer@yale.edu
Cc: tamarche@facstaff.wisc.edu
Subject: Voynich manuscript

Dr. Schaefer: Thank you for your very interesting article on the Voynich
manuscript in the November 2000 Sky and Telescope. Many years ago, I first
learned about the manuscript from an excellent talk given by Norman
Sperling. Since then, I have occasionally delved into the topic during
brief periods of interest.

I an now a professional historian of science (Ph.D., Indiana University,
1999), specializing in the history of astronomy (chiefly nineteenth and
twentieth centuries). I am not a medievalist, nor do I read/translate
Latin. But I would like to address a few of the questions/issues that you
have raised in the article (and Web-related references).

First, you ask whether anyone is familiar with "another zodiac starting
with Pisces" that includes "a man/woman for Gemini." A quick look at the
Egyptian Dendera ceiling zodiac, dating from around 30 A.D., illustrated
and described in E. C. Krupp's In Search of Ancient Astronomies (1978), pp.
216-219, indeed shows "[a] man and a woman with joined hands [that]
represents Gemini, the Twins" (p. 217). Also, whether by design or
coincidence, Krupp starts his description of the Dendera zodiac with
Pisces. Has this connection ever been noted before?

Given this (and related evidence discussed below), I would like to ask
whether ther Voynich manuscript might not be related to, or an offshoot
from, the so-called Hermetic corpus, which is now thought to have been
authored ca. 250 - ca. 330 A.D. as part of the post-Christian (and
post-classical) Platonic tradition. As you may be aware, when it was first
recovered ca. 1460 A.D., the corpus was (wrongly) attributed to a
pre-classical writer named Hermes Trismegistus. [For a concise sketch of
the Hermetic corpus, see Colin A. Ronan, Science: Its History and
Development Among the World's Cultures (1982), pp. 273-277, including its
eventual debunking as a preclassical text.] These writings, translated into
Latin by Marsilio Ficino (1433-1499), however, played a significant role in
the awakening of interest in natural magic (and later science) during the
Renaissance. Given the post-classical age of these writings, Pisces would
have been regarded as the sign of the vernal equinox, due to the
recognition of precession (since the time of Hipparchus and Ptolemy). And
certainly other permutations on the zodiacal signs may have been introduced
as well (though not a medieval crossbowman).

As noted in the Web-sites, other textual (and graphical) evidence from the
Voynich manuscript seems to point toward its creation in the period from
around 1400 to 1600. This is not at variance with the recovery and
dissemination of the Hermetic corpus by Ficino. Without undertaking more
in-depth research, I cannot expect to strengthen any of these claims, but
nonetheless offer them to those like yourself who may be interested. I hope
that you receive additional insights from readers of your article.

Sincerely,

Jordan D. Marche' II, Ph.D.
tamarche@facstaff.wisc.edu (wife Theresa'a account)



From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct  4 15:05:52 2000
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:05:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Second response to S&T article
Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10010041400090.4776-100000@astro.as.utexas.edu>
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Hi;
	Here, Dr. Jackson suggests that paleographers might be able to
help with the VMS provenance and dating.  He suggests in particular that
the dating looks like 1350-1400.  And he also points to a particularly
knowledgable expert in Poland, Dr. Ewa Sniezynska-Stolot who knows much
about medieval zodiacs.  Has this person checked out the VMS?  Or what
paleographers have examined the VMS?
Cheers,
Brad
schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:12:46 -0500
From: Richard A. Jackson <RAJacobson@email.msn.com>
Reply-To: Richard A. Jackson <rjackson@uh.edu>
To: schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu
Subject: The Voynich manuscript

The article is interesting, and the manuscript is most interesting. I have
not yet had time to look at the WEB sites to which you refer, but intend to
do so. In the meantime, have any of the topnotch palaeographers looked at
the script? I am thinking of the late Bernhard Bischoff in Germany or T.
Julian Brown in London. I have worked with many manuscripts from the eighth
to the eighteenth century, and the manuscript's script is fairly familiar to
me, although I would have to look at my microfilms to find a close match.
UntiI do so, and off the top of my head, I would say that the script dates
from 1350-1400; if you like, I'll check when I get back to Houston from
Calvert, TX, Monday.

The person I know who knows most about the medieval signs of the zodiac is
Ewa Sniezynska-Stolot. She published a big book on the subject about five
years ago. The book, which is lavishly illustrated, is written in Polish,
but its author speaks good English -- I got to know her personally (we had
corresponded over the years) when we were together for a month at the
Institute for Advanced Study. You might wish to send her an offprint of the
article, telling her that I recommended that you do so (she knows that I am
on the history faculty of the University of Houston). Her address:

Prof. Ewa Sniezynska-Stolot [this ignores three diacritical marks in the
name, but I think that a letter would reach her]
ul. Na Blonie 3B/99 [that is a Polish slash l in Blonie]
PL-30-148 Krakw
Poland

Sincerely,
Richard A. Jackson




From reeds Wed Oct  4 15:14:28 2000
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:13:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Jackson: a second medieval work with non-existant plants
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Hi;
	I don't know whether other books with non-existant plants are
known within the VMS community.  If not then this could be a fun lead.
Again, I would appreciate comments from knowledgable folks, in part for
passing on to Dr. Jackson.
Cheers,
Brad
schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:17:14 -0500
From: Richard A. Jackson <RAJacobson@email.msn.com>
Reply-To: Richard A. Jackson <rjackson@uh.edu>
To: schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu
Subject: Voynich manuscript II

I forgot to mention something. Manuscripts of the _Liber Floridus_ (ca.
1200) of Lambert of Saint-Omer also contain illustrations of non-existant
plants. They ar both strange and lovely. I can send you references, if
wanted.

Richard A. Jackson





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From: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
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Subject: Re: Marche: VMS zodiac based on Hermetic sources going back to Dendera
To: schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu (Bradley E. SCHAEFER)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10010041345480.4776-100000@astro.as.utexas.edu> from "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" at Oct 04, 2000 01:49:09 PM
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Bradley E. SCHAEFER wrote:
> 
> Egyptian Dendera ceiling zodiac, dating from around 30 A.D., illustrated
> and described in E. C. Krupp's In Search of Ancient Astronomies (1978), pp.

Ah, he beat me to it! :) I just read the article at lunchtime and remembered
the calender in Krupp. Without going home to review the book, let me add
that Krupp is one of the best introductory texts on archaeoastronomy I've
seen, and should be read by anyone interested in the topic.

I remember thinking a while back that Hermetic texts might be an interesting
and plausible topic for the VMs. Certainly they might be a source for crib
words and phrases to test against the content as, even if it's not a copy
of one of the actual texts, it might refer to them or the associated
magical ideas. Has anyone explored this?

-Adams

-- 
====================================================
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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 22:30:59 +0200
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"Bradley E. SCHAEFER" wrote:

> From: Richard A. Jackson <RAJacobson@email.msn.com>

> The person I know who knows most about the medieval signs of the zodiac is
> Ewa Sniezynska-Stolot. She published a big book on the subject about five
> years ago. The book, which is lavishly illustrated, is written in Polish,

I am ashamed I did not know about her. I have now ascertained that she
wrote at least two books on Zodiacal iconography and I will check
them ASAP. I also volunteer to contact her (after I see the books).

Best regards,

Rafal

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct  4 16:57:34 2000
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:55:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Mattei: Other star name cribs?
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Hi;
	Mike Mattei proposes some star names for the VMS picture with the
possible Pleiades.  He roughly tries to identify the 2, 3, and 4 stars in
the other quadrants with asterisms in the four sky quadrants.  Tycho's
supernova was in 1572, so many of you would say that it cannot be the real
ID.
	However, with this line of thinking, there *is* a well known
asterism *on* the zodiac roughly a quarter of the way around the ecliptic
from the Pleiades.  The Waterjar in Aquarius is a famous asterism, even
though it is not made from bright stars.  The shape is perfect for the
foursome of stars in the VMS quadrant one removed from the 'Pleiades
quadrant'.  If this is taken as true, then the suggestion would be that
each VMS quadrant illustrates an asterism near the ecliptic at roughly 90
degree intervals.  This would be very much like the Royal Stars of the
ancients, while the Chinese have a similar setup.  Within this paradigm,
the pair of stars will be somewhere near Cancer.  Then, with only a small
deviation from 90 degree spacing, the pair could well be the famous Gemini
star pair of Castor and Pollux.  These are bright, famous, near the
ecliptic, and close enough to the quadrant site.  The quadrant of the trio
of stars would then be somewhere near Libra.  Libra is sometime drawn as
three stars, but more commonly as more.  So the match here is poor.
Anyway, these are possible cribs...
Cheers,
Brad
schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 00:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Mattei <mmattei@ma.ultranet.com>
To: schaefer@grb2.physics.yale.edu
Subject: Voynich manuscript

Hi Brad

I just finished your article of the Voynich mystery. I found it very
interesting, I always was interested in these mysterious documents and whish
I could decode them. But here is my view, many may already be known as you
do not give many in the article. You mention the stars on the chart on page
42 (lower left) where in one panel is Aldeberan and the Pleiades, well going
clockwise to the next panel there are two stars, next three, next four. If
you fold out the center star map, there is a photo of Cassiopeia on the
right side of the page. I agree that in the first panel is Aldeberan and the
pleiades. The next panel could be the pointer stars of the Big Dipper, next
the Summer Triangle (Deneb,Vega,Altair), next, might be the center three
stars of Cassiopeia (like in the photo on the right side of the page), with
Tyco's Super Nova? I forget the exact time of the nova, but the date of the
book may be in that time period. Anyway that's my two cents worth. As for
the other pages, well I could not guess, but there are many naked woman if
that has anything to say for them. Maybe some guy was making the rounds with
the ladies and kept a record of his travels by time of the year.

Hope to see you at the AAVSO meeting later this month.

        Mike Mattei


From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct  4 19:48:46 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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    > [Michael Mattei:] Anyway that's my two cents worth. As for
    > the other pages, well I could not guess, but there are many naked women if
    > that has anything to say for them. Maybe some guy was making the rounds with
    > the ladies and kept a record of his travels by time of the year.

Of course! Questo  il catalogo
Delle belle che am il padron mio;
Un catalogo egli  che ho fatt'io ---
Su osservate, leggete con me!

Therefore <daiin> (note: three strokes!) is the numeral 1003,
and two baffling mysteries get solved right away:

  <f89r2>     
  chos dol okcheem tol daiin daiin daiin = 
  ma in Ispagna son gi 1003, 1003, 1003.

  <f116v>
  oror sheey = Don Juan
  
All the best 8-)

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct  4 23:08:47 2000
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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 22:08:38 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Jackson: a second medieval work with non-existant plants
References: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10010041410410.4776-100000@astro.as.utexas.edu>
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	I looked for ref's and images of the Liber Floridus on
the Web.  I found ref's but no images.  (A lot of the
material that turned up on 
www.dogpile.com
was in German, so someone who knows that language might
do better.

	So by all means ask Dr. Jackson for further ref's,
especially with pic's in them.

	Here are my results.

Dennis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.bnf.fr/web-bnf/connaitr/pelleti.htm
Maps, Witnesses of History


En revanche, celle intitule l'Europa Mundi Pars Quarta 
dont je vous ai parl est extraite du manuscrit
du Liber Floridus de Lambert de Saint-Omer conserv 
Gand.

In turn, the map intitled "Europe the Fourth Part of
the World",
of which I've already spoken to you is taken from the
manuscript
"Liber Floridus" of Lambert of Saint-Omer preserved at
Ghent.(Belgium)

http://www.bnf.fr/web-bnf/pedagos/dossitsm/ques-enc.htm
9. Encyclopdies utilises par les prdicateurs : 

  Liber Floridus de Lambert de Saint-Omer, 
  De Naturis rerum de Thomas de Cantimpr, 
  Liber de proprietatibus rerum (le Livre des
proprits des choses)
      de Barthlmy lAnglais, 
  Bestiaire dAmours et Response de Richard de
Fournival. 

http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/archiv/nel/neu_103/2_1.htm
Derolez, Albert

 The autograph manuscript of the Liber Floridus : a key
to the encyclopedia of Lambert of
 Saint-Omer / by Albert Derolez. - Turnholti : Brepols,
1998. - 210, 42 S. : Ill.
 (Corpus Christianorum : Autographa medii aevi ; 4)
 Text engl., Autograph lat.
 ISBN 2-503-50792-1 - ISBN 2-503-50793-X
 Standort: 98 B 5275

http://geoweb.venezia.sbn.it/geoweb/HSL/ImagoMundi/ImagoMundi.html
N. 39 (1987)
Imago Mundi. The Journal of the International Society
for the History of Cartography
London, Imago Mundi Ltd. C/o King's College

Danielle Lecoqc, La mappemonde du Liber Floridus ou la
vision du monde de Lambert de
Saint-Omer, pp. 9-49
John R. Hbert, Vicente Sebastian Pintado, Surveyor
General of Spanish West Florida, 1805-1817


http://www.libraries.psu.edu/crsweb/speccol/msfacs.htm
Penn State Libraries

Manuscript Facsimiles
Lambert, of Saint-Omer. Lamberti S. Audomari Canonici
Liber Floridus.
 Gandavi: In aedibus Story-Scientia, 1968.
AE2.L36 1968 Q [Shelved in Manuscript Facsimile] 

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tomgreen/folkgazt.htm
Arthurian Folklore
A number of sites have been claimed as Arthur's Court /
Hall.
 One of these is mentioned in an 'encyclopedia'
completed in
1120 by Lambert of St. Omer, whose text is related to
the Historia 
Brittonum (see D.N. Dumville, 'The Liber Floridus of
Lambert of Saint-Omer and the Historia Brittonum' in 
Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies 26 (1974-6),
pp.103-22). 


University of Ghent Libraries
http://157.193.101.1/e-info.html

Manuscripts I

"Among the medieval manuscripts
a very special place is occupied by the documents that
come from 
Sint-Pieters Abbey (incl. the famous Liber
Floridus)"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Bradley E. SCHAEFER" wrote:
> 
> Hi;
>         I don't know whether other books with non-existant plants are
> known within the VMS community.  If not then this could be a fun lead.
> Again, I would appreciate comments from knowledgable folks, in part for
> passing on to Dr. Jackson.
> Cheers,
> Brad
> schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:17:14 -0500
> From: Richard A. Jackson <RAJacobson@email.msn.com>
> Reply-To: Richard A. Jackson <rjackson@uh.edu>
> To: schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu
> Subject: Voynich manuscript II
> 
> I forgot to mention something. Manuscripts of the _Liber Floridus_ (ca.
> 1200) of Lambert of Saint-Omer also contain illustrations of non-existant
> plants. They ar both strange and lovely. I can send you references, if
> wanted.
> 
> Richard A. Jackson

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 02:17:04 2000
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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 07:25:37 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Thanks to Brad for sharing these replies.

Having a deadline for a paper today, I have only time for
a few brief comments. Brad, I think that it might not be a bad idea
to make a summary of the most interesting replies and offer them
on the Hist.of Astronomy mailing list (if the senders agree). I am
sure that Dr. E. Krupp would be willing to comment.

I am also intrigued by the Polish source. I wouldn't be able to read the
text very well (even though I managed to guess what 'potrzebie' means
:-) )
but Rafal may be able to tell us more about its illustrations.
The source for this I am more familiar with is Fritz Saxl: Verzeichniss
astrologischer und mythologischer Handscriften .... (etc) 1915, also
cited
by D'Imperio. There were a few interesting illustrations in that,
showing e.g. that the style of Sun, Moon, star and planet faces as drawn
in the Voynich MS are completely 'normal' or 'typical' for this time
period.

The Dendera zodiac is quite famous. I may have an illustration of it
somewhere but can't quickly find it. Now unless I am much mistaken,
it is circular so its starting point may not be obvious.
And in AD 30 the starting point for the zodiac should really still be
Aries. Also, is there any connection between this buiding or site
and the Hermetic teachings? Or did all Egyptian science fall under the 
Hermetic Corpus by default?
Interesting in this aspect is also that Toresella's article about 
alchemical herbals shows an illustration of a whole array of medicinal
herbs on one of the walls of another Egyptian temple...
  
Of the Liber Floridus by Lambert of St. Omer I have two illustrations
(in A. Roob: Alchemie und Mystik). The book is dated 1120. None of 
the two illustrations is herbal. I can only call them 'cosmological',
one being more of a religious nature while the other allows an extremely
interesting comparison with some VMs drawings (taking into account the
style difference from >400 years).

Well, that already isn't very short anymore, I'll have to stop now.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 03:10:15 2000
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:10:58 -0700
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I mentioned this to the sience fiction writers group this evening. There
are some real SETI experts in this group. The host got the mag out for all
to see.
There was mild interest. It was agreed that it would be a good exercise for
the SETI/CONTACT crowd. The question is with the busy schedules we hold is
it worth the time.
This artical will be seen by the SETI enthususts. One of the writers said
it would make a good story. Lone travler stuck on planet at the start of
the renaissance. So there might be some interes there.
-julieP


From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 03:36:48 2000
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From: jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)
Subject: Galileo's daughter
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I just finished the book _Galileo's Daughter_ by Dava Sobel (longitude)
A bit dry reading. The 1630's are much too late for a VMS connection.
What I found interesting, was the process Galileo had to go through to get
his book published.
He was close to his Daughter, iligitimite who took her vows into a
Fransiscian convent.(order of St Clair) He chose his house to be near her.
She may have been his copy editor on the Dialog. (This part of the
corespondence does not survive)
What I did not know, was that the pope was in the midst of the 30 years
war. To complicate things Plauge took 40 percent of the Florenteen
population.
How to get Galileo's manuscript from Florence to the censors in Rome?
Florence was in quarenteen. Books & MSS were suspect plauge carriers. Such
things were sanitized when impounded. Some were burned. The sanitation
process could destroy the ink.
While this does not relate directly. It is interesting to realise how
fragile such things really are. In the end Galileo got a licence to print
in Florence. This in turn caused later problems.
It is hard in this day to understand the suspresson of knowlege. Something
like the VMS would really be suspect.
I still thing the VMS was written by Rosencrantz and Guldersern as a cheat
on caligraphy 101. On the other hand Perhaps Mary and Martha wrote it to
have a good laugh at sister lexographer.
There are samples of Sister Maria Celeste Galileo's hand. It has the long
strokes of the Itainate hand. Small sums could be earned by sisters who
could sell such skills in writing.
-julieP



From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 08:19:35 2000
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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 07:19:40 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Julie Porter wrote:
> 
> It is hard in this day to understand the suspresson of knowlege. Something
> like the VMS would really be suspect.

	Yup.  One might think that Toresella's 
alchemical herbals would be an exception.  However, the
text was plain 
in those.  

>  On the other hand Perhaps Mary and Martha wrote it to
> have a good laugh at sister lexographer.  

	Hmmm...  I just read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".  I've
always thought we
need a good Knights Templar theory.  Did Mary and
Martha escape to the south of France (Gaul) 
with the Magdalen and her and Jesus' children?   Then
the nymphs would be Mary Magdalen.  
The herbal drawings could be symbolic of the offspring
of the House of David.  But as Jews
they definitely would not have drawn the astrological
diagrams...  And the date and script 
would be way off, putting it mildly.  'Fraid not.

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 10:45:22 2000
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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:45:41 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Gabriel Landini wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> I did a small update on the effect of the alphabet on the entropy in
> the VMS.
> 
> http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/commas.htm
> 
> (near the end, a new graph in various alphabets)

	Very interesting.  The graphs form various families. 
Dalgarno is a little lower than the
Curva/Currier/FSG/Gava family.  Also very interesting
is how English entropy crosses Latin entropy at 100,000
characters and becomes higher than Latin.  Can you
think of a reason for this?  Dalgarno and English both
start to slope up at ~3000 characters.  

	Bear in mind that these curves come from different
character sets of widely differing sizes.  That's why
the h1-h2 number is useful; it indicates how good the
language/orthography is when groups of characters are
involved and is at least somewhat valid for comparisons
between character sets of differing sizes.  Could you
give us h1-h2 values for 20k or more characters?

	A comment on Rene's "Character Entropy to Word
Entropy".   He shows that the latter part of Voynichese
words carry much more info than the first part.  Could
this be due to the tripartite structure of Voynichese
words?  Say you have 20 beginning groups.  Then you
might have 20 * 20 = 400 groups that constitute the
rest of the word.  Rene might well have taken this into
account and I didn't notice it.  

	I've been talking to you and Jorge about the great
disparity between the group of words that fit the Firth
paradigm (~ 300), the paradigm which fits 75-80 % of
the text, and the total number of words in the text
(8200).  I thought that I might be able to represent
Voynichese in a two-dimensional grid.  The tripartite
nature of Jorge's grammar of Voynichese words shows
that I'll need a three-dimensional grid. This
complicates things enormously, unless there is
something to restrict the third dimension.  For
instance, the two-dimensional grid accounts for the
bulk of the tokens; perhaps the remainder is for
uncommon words.  

	In an attempt to gain insight into this, I took
Tiltman's and Firth's paradigms and classified the
internal parts of each according to Jorge's grammar of
Voynichese words.  The result is appended below.  

	In Firth's paradigm, a lot of prefixes are crust
only.  Some are crust-core, some are mantle or
mantle-core, but none are crust-mantle.  Interestingly,
none of the suffixes even contain core.  Quite a few
are crust only or crust-IN.  The remainder are
mantle-crust. None are mantle-IN.  

	Any more ideas, anyone?  

Dennis

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

{crust}
{crust-dealer}
{mantle}
{core}
{circle}
{preceding mantle/core}
{IN}


{Fig. 27 -- Tiltman's Division of Common Words into
"Roots" and "Suffixes" }
{(Tiltman 1951)  (Currier's Transliteration) }

{Roots                      Suffixes}

o{circle}k{core}            a{circle}n{crust-dealer}
                            a{circle}in{IN}
                            a{circle}iin{IN}
                            a{circle}iiin{IN}
o{circle}f{core}
o{circle}t{core}            a{circle}r{crust-dealer} 
                            a{circle}ir{IN}
                            a{circle}iir{IN}
                            a{circle}iiir{IN}
o{circle}p{core}   
q{crust}o{circle}k{core}    a{circle}l{crust-dealer}
                            a{circle}il{IN}
                            a{circle}iil{IN}
                            a{circle}iiil{IN}
q{crust}o{circle}f{core}
q{crust}o{circle}{core}t    o{circle}r{crust-dealer}
q{crust}o{circle}p{core}
ch{mantle}                  o{circle}l{crust-dealer}
sh{mantle}                  e{preceding
mantle/core}y{circle}
                            ee{mantle}y{circle}
                            ee{mantle}e{preceding
mantle/core}y{circle}
d{crust-dealer}             e{preceding
mantle/core}d{crust-dealer}y{circle}
                           
ee{mantle}d{crust-dealer}y{circle}
                            ee{mantle}e{preceding
mantle/core}d{crust-dealer}y{circle}
s{crust-dealer}



{Firth's paradigm, from his Work Note #24}

{Eventually, I decided to set the cutoff at}
{four occurrences: any group that occurs 4 or more
times is probably}
{genuine.  This removes about 20% of the text, but it
removes over}
{85% of the unique groups, and most of the remainder
look plausible.}

{What is Encoded?

{So, we have some 280 groups in the Voynich A, that
occur 4 or more times,}
{with the record being 355 for '8AM'.  If we assume
(pace Brumbaugh) that }
{every group has a single decode, then that sets an
upper bound at 280 }
{for the number of different plaintext units.  So
they're not words. }


{Odd Letters                Even Letters}

s{crust}                    d{crust-dealer}y{circle}
q{crust}o{circle}          
d{crust-dealer}a{circle}l{crust-dealer}
q{crust}o{circle}k{core}   
d{crust-dealer}a{circle}iin{IN}
q{crust}o{circle}t{crust}   a{circle}l{crust-dealer}
d{crust-dealer}             a{circle}m{crust}
y{circle}k{core}            a{circle}iin{IN}
y{circle}t{core}            a{circle}in{IN}
k{core}                     a{circle}r{crust-dealer}
o{circle}                   e{preceding
mantle/core}y{circle}
o{circle}k{core}            ee{mantle}y{circle}
o{circle}t{core}            e{preceding
mantle/core}o{circle}l{crust-dealer}
t{core}                     o{circle}l{crust-dealer}
cth{core}                   o{circle}iin{IN}
ch{mantle}                  o{circle}r{crust-dealer}
chk{core}                   ch{mantle}y{circle}
ch{mantle}t{core}           ch{mantle}e{preceding
mantle/core}y{circle}
ch{mantle}cth{core}         ch{mantle}o{circle}
ch{mantle}cph{core}        
ch{mantle}o{circle}l{crust-dealer}
ch{mantle}ckh{core}        
ch{mantle}o{circle}r{crust-dealer}
cph{core}                   sh{mantle}y
ckh{core}                   y{circle}(maybe)
sh{mantle}
sh{mantle}o{circle}


{ With the exception of that silly }
{letter '9' almost any combination of symbols is
locally decodable. }
{(Something's wrong with 8 or AM or 8AM; otherwise,
it's rigorous.) }

{[Note: and also with S/OM and S/OR.  But - and as a
former compiler }
{writer I should really have spotted this - the lexical
scansion is }
{unambiguous if you also keep track of odd and even. 
'8' in state }
{"odd" must be a letter; '8' in state "even" must be
the start of }
{'89' or '8AE' or '8AM'. }

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 11:16:20 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:15:12 +0100
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On 5 Oct 2000, at 9:45, Dennis wrote:

>  Very interesting.  The graphs form various families. 
> Dalgarno is a little lower than the  Curva/Currier/FSG/Gava family.  

Well Gava is a bit more economical than Curva but just because 
the complex gallows are coded as a single character.
So yes, Curva, Currier and Gava are very similar.

> Also very interesting is how English entropy crosses Latin entropy
> at 100,000 characters and becomes higher than Latin. 

Yes, I noted this too but I do not have an answer. 

> think of a reason for this?  Dalgarno and English both
> start to slope up at ~3000 characters.  

Note that Dalgarno's text seems to be word-redundant; I am not 
sure whether this is content-related or because of the word 
structure.

Going out to see if I can get Sky & Telescope!...

Cheers,
Gabriel

 

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 12:04:17 2000
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Reply-To: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
From: "John Grove" <4groves@sprint.ca>
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Linear 'C'hinese
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:09:54 -0400
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Not that I'm trying to support the Chinese cause any, but what if the
strokes that make up Chinese Hanzi weren't piled on top of each other to
create a pretty square image...

In Chinese Hanzi and thus probably Japanese Kanji stroke order is quite
important to the writer when creating a character. Applying a set of stroke
order rules to VMS character creation can come up with some interesting
results (IMHO):

All Characters begin with a 'c' stroke except:

1. Gallows (q and the single line '|' weirdo types are included as mini-g's
in this argument)

2. Word initial 'a' characters (or those that follow 'o')

3. Weirdo characters

The basic two stroke characters are 'o,y,d,s,ch, and the seldom used b'

The basic three stroke characters are often weirdos that combine two ending
strokes to one c-stroke, although the most common three stroke character
would be 'sh' - consisting of c with s and ch finals.

The basic four stroke characters are 'al, ar, an, aj, aih'

The inclusion of extra 'c' or 'i' strokes increases the number of strokes in
a given character and thus carries a different meaning than one that looks
similar but has lest strokes.

If one totals all the strokes in a 'word' daiin = 8 strokes - the word is
differentiate from others that looks similar but may be completely
unrelated: dain = 7 strokes. My Chinese knowledge is quite limited but I do
know their are (or were) some extremely complex Hanzi with more than a dozen
strokes.

I had said that all characters begin with a 'c-stroke' which leaves out the
frequent use of standalone characters like 'l or 'r' that are definitely of
the 'i-stroke' family. However, I give them the rule that if they are word
initial or follow an 'o', they can drop the normal 'c + i = a' pattern.
(Maybe that's too lenient... I'll have to look closer at the word and letter
usage again).

This doesn't help explain how Gallows or any of their many weirdo forms
would be applied, but I think if you look at a fair number of the weirdo
signs without gallows parts like the @ sign or 'ch' characters that end with
a 'y or o final' it helps account for their formation if not an accurate
explanation of how they are used.

Some Weirdos:

There are a few weirdo characters that look (to me) to be simply combined
ending strokes:

&143: add the ending ligatures of 's' and 'h' without a preceding 'c'

&140: just the ending ligature of 's'

&135/&208: ending of 's' + ending of 'o'

&189: i + ending of 'y'

O with 's' ligature above it appear twice on page f49r - could even be o +
sh + 'o' final

Well, enough of that! I don't want to convince myself to swim back to the
Chinese side yet...

John


From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 12:16:27 2000
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From: "John Grove" <4groves@sprint.ca>
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Subject: Linear 'C'hinese again
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Oops, I had said that each 'character' began with a c-stroke: thus a word
may consist of more than one character: daiin would be two characters d -
two stroke, and aiin - six stroke.
By this definition all VMS words could be broken into syllables by finding
the 'finals' of each character:
oteedy = o (one two-stroke character), t = 'box character', eed (one
four-stroke character) and y - a final two stroke character: Thus four
syllables ( or three if the Gallows is a modifier of the following
character).

    John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 12:29:37 2000
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: rene@voynich.nu
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Sky & Telescope article
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> The Dendera zodiac is quite famous. I may have an illustration of it
> somewhere but can't quickly find it. Now unless I am much mistaken, it
> is circular so its starting point may not be obvious. And in AD 30 the
> starting point for the zodiac should really still be Aries.

In the last part of the last degree? People must've already been singing
"This is the dawning of the Age o-of Pisces" in the streets! ;-) 

The starting point is always obvious to an astrologer -- the Asc marking
the East. Hmmm, which is in our normal geographical West position on
charts. And Double-hmmm -- the houses run counter-sunwise as well!

I've seen this before in Native America: Algonkians (homeland in NE) all
honor the Four Directions by starting in the East, second is South, third
is West and fourth North; it starts where the sun first appears and goes
sunwise. On the other hand, the Sahaptin Indians (homeland NW) begin in
the West, where the sunlight first hits, then going counter-sunwise
honor South second, East third and North fourth. Note that South and
North have exactly the same position in both systems.

A mathematical physicist noticed that, along with Grandfathers Above and
Grandmothers Below, these six directions form geophysical coordinates
which could be ceremonially useful.

Now the Big Puzzle -- why should this be so? 

My working hypothesis is that the Sahaptin (Yakama River People of WA
state) came up from South America -- below the equator -- long ago, maybe
9-10,000 yrs ago since their songs still remember seeing the Great Inner
Lake stretching eastward from the Rockies formed by melting glaciers when
the Ice Age retreated further north. Seen next to my Algonkian friends, my
Sahaptin friends are significantly darker skinned, again suggesting more
southern origins even tho living around WA/OR for millennia.

Maybe this was more for me than y'all, noticing what is essentially
bathtub water swirling differently in N. and S. Hemispheres as it might
pertain to the origins of astrology and Amerind ceremonial practices.

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                                   -- Roy, Mystery Men



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Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Rene Zandbergen wrote:
> 
> > The Dendera zodiac is quite famous. I may have an illustration of it
> > somewhere but can't quickly find it. Now unless I am much mistaken, it
> > is circular so its starting point may not be obvious. And in AD 30 the
> > starting point for the zodiac should really still be Aries.
> 
> In the last part of the last degree? People must've already been singing
> "This is the dawning of the Age o-of Pisces" in the streets! ;-)

	Or,

	"What rough beast, his hour come round at last,
	"Slouches towards Eridu to be born?"  

	Incidentally.  Scholars, over the last ten years, have
discovered that the Mithraic cult of the middle to late
Roman empire originated from the discovery that the sky
was going from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Pisces. 
I'm not good on astronomy, but the star Perseus sits in
the sky such that Perseus could be the star/god
responsible for the end of the Age of Taurus.  At that
time it would have been seen as Perseus' moving the
very axis of the universe.  The scene in the Mithraic
temples show The Slaying of the Bull by Perseus, with
animals for the other signs of the zodiac.  So a whole
religion of the god Perseus formed around this!

	ObVMs:  The folks at S&T could see as well as us that
later hands could have added the zodiac symbols in the
middle, but I don't recall their commenting on this.

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 13:50:30 2000
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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:50:24 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: Marche: VMS zodiac based on Hermetic sources going back to Dendera
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"Bradley E. SCHAEFER" wrote:
> 
> Given this (and related evidence discussed below), I would like to ask
> whether ther Voynich manuscript might not be related to, or an offshoot
> from, the so-called Hermetic corpus,

<snip>

> These writings, translated into
> Latin by Marsilio Ficino (1433-1499), however, played a significant role in
> the awakening of interest in natural magic (and later science) during the
> Renaissance. 

	I've read the Corpus Hermeticum at least once.  It
talks quite a bit about astrology, but it's the
standard astrology.  Indeed, it talks about how the
planets and celestial spheres dominate and control the
lives of most humans, and how one may transcend this.  

	However, there's no Christianity in the Corpus
Hermeticum.  Indeed, the Culminating Discourse
denounces Christianity violently, although without
explicitly naming it.  There's hardly any Christian
influence in the VMs, so there's a connection.  Of
course, the Renaissance was also the time of renewal of
the writings of ancient Greece in general, so this is
not specific to the Corpus Hermeticum.  

> As noted in the Web-sites, other textual (and graphical) evidence from the
> Voynich manuscript seems to point toward its creation in the period from
> around 1400 to 1600.

	Our best indicators to date:  

	1)  Julie Porter, who has been a costumes mistress at
several Renaissance festivals, notes that the nymphs'
hairdos date them 1480-1520.

	2)  Jim Reeds talked to Prof. Sergio Toresella about
the influence of the "humanist hand" on the Voynich
script.  The "humanist hand", the bridge between the
Gothic script of the Middle Ages and the Italic script
of modern times, was used only for a few decades in the
15th century.  

	So 1480 would be a good date.

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 14:37:47 2000
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:36:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Sky & Telescope article
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:

> Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Rene Zandbergen wrote:
> > 
> > > The Dendera zodiac is quite famous. I may have an illustration of it
> > > somewhere but can't quickly find it. Now unless I am much mistaken, it
> > > is circular so its starting point may not be obvious. And in AD 30 the
> > > starting point for the zodiac should really still be Aries.
> > 
> > In the last part of the last degree? People must've already been singing
> > "This is the dawning of the Age o-of Pi-isces" in the streets! ;-)
> 
> 	Or,
> 
> 	"What rough beast, his hour come round at last,
> 	"Slouches towards Eridu to be born?"  
> 
> Incidentally.  Scholars, over the last ten years, have
> discovered that the Mithraic cult of the middle to late
> Roman empire originated from the discovery that the sky
> was going from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Pisces. 

Slight problem with that.

Astrologically, there was the Age of Taurus (~4-2000 BCE), then Aries
(~2000-1 BCE), then Pisces (~1-2000 CE), and we're now on the cusp of
Aquarius ~2-4000 CE). 

We are now half-way around the zodiac from the Great Deluge from melting
glaciers that sunk Atlantis at the retreat of the Ice Age at the cusp of
Leo. I wonder if anything will happen when we hit the exact opposition
position. The beginning of the Age of Leo called for strong male leaders
to build civilization anew; Aquarius calls for ingenuity and humanity,
being the only human figure in the standard zodiac.

> I'm not good on astronomy, but the star Perseus sits in
> the sky such that Perseus could be the star/god
> responsible for the end of the Age of Taurus.  At that
> time it would have been seen as Perseus' moving the
> very axis of the universe.  The scene in the Mithraic
> temples show The Slaying of the Bull by Perseus, with
> animals for the other signs of the zodiac.  So a whole
> religion of the god Perseus formed around this!

That would be Age of Taurus, then, when Egyptians, Minoans and others 
following astrology revered the bull; the Hebrew people moved away from
(Taurus) bull worship to (Aries) ram/lamb slaughter at the cusp of
Taurus/Aries. Then, reportedly, Jesus (and down to current followers) used
fish(ing) metaphors and symbols 2000 yrs later at the Aries/Pisces cusp,
and later drawings show him holding a lamb, showing the new Piscean
domination over the lamb of Aries. All ancient civilizations following
astrology, which Jung called "the psychology of the ancients," brought
their religious practices into conformance with the current Age.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 14:50:52 2000
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Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> 
> Astrologically, there was the Age of Taurus (~4-2000 BCE), then Aries
> (~2000-1 BCE), then Pisces (~1-2000 CE), and we're now on the cusp of
> Aquarius ~2-4000 CE). 

Yes, but did the ancients necessarily nail the years that closely? I can see
them being in error at least a century or two on either side.

> Aquarius calls for ingenuity and humanity,
> being the only human figure in the standard zodiac.

What about Gemini and Saggitarius?

-Adams

-- 
====================================================
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 14:50:48 2000
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Dennis wrote:

> Hmmm...  I just read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".  I've always thought we need
> a good Knights Templar theory.

For Pete's dake, Dennis, I've already proposed a perfectly good (and half
serious) theory involving the Rosicrucians -- what more do you want? The
Rosicrusian manifestos, with their references to the organization of the
Ros. fraternity "first by four persons only, and by them was made
the magical language and writing, with a large dictionary, which we yet 
daily use," the single concrete circumstantial detail of a Brother J.O.
in England who had cured a young Earl of Norfolk of leprosy, and a date
for the death of Christian Rosencrans of 1484 (consistent with the date
of ~1470 that Panofsky would have assigned the Voynich if not for the
supposedly post-Columbian plants), were an effort to flush out the
authors of the Voynich.

Karl

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> 	I have finally seen a copy of my Sky & Telescope article, and
> thought that the magazine did justice to the pictures. 

Overall they were good, but the composite of all 12 was a little small
(at least for the text). In any case, a worthwhile addition to my
collection of Voynich articles.

Karl

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	My mistake.  That's a good one! 
Dennis

Karl Kluge wrote:
> 
> Dennis wrote:
> 
> > Hmmm...  I just read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".  I've always thought we need
> > a good Knights Templar theory.
> 
> For Pete's dake, Dennis, I've already proposed a perfectly good (and half
> serious) theory involving the Rosicrucians -- what more do you want? The
> Rosicrusian manifestos, with their references to the organization of the
> Ros. fraternity "first by four persons only, and by them was made
> the magical language and writing, with a large dictionary, which we yet
> daily use," the single concrete circumstantial detail of a Brother J.O.
> in England who had cured a young Earl of Norfolk of leprosy, and a date
> for the death of Christian Rosencrans of 1484 (consistent with the date
> of ~1470 that Panofsky would have assigned the Voynich if not for the
> supposedly post-Columbian plants), were an effort to flush out the
> authors of the Voynich.
> 
> Karl

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 19:13:54 2000
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John Grove wrote:
> but I do
> know their are (or were) some extremely complex Hanzi with more than a dozen
> strokes.
> 
http://www.geocities.com/hao510/charfreq/index.htm

Has lots of statistical data on the subject of strokes in
Chinese characters from a research project.  The data was
compiled from USENET and should reflect any sort of Chinese,
modern or 1500s with a good deal of accuracy.  I didn't see it
in his page this time, but when I looked at it before, he had
made a point that the samples were of Taiwanese and Hong
Kong'ian origin, so there should be no reflection of the new
short form characters.
Regards,
Brian

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 19:45:50 2000
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Dennis wrote:
         Our best indicators to date:
> 
>         1)  Julie Porter, who has been a costumes mistress at
> several Renaissance festivals, notes that the nymphs'
> hairdos date them 1480-1520.
> 
>         2)  Jim Reeds talked to Prof. Sergio Toresella about
> the influence of the "humanist hand" on the Voynich
> script.  The "humanist hand", the bridge between the
> Gothic script of the Middle Ages and the Italic script
> of modern times, was used only for a few decades in the
> 15th century.

I hate to shoot holes in data without any better alternative to
offer (actually I love it), but there are some problems with
these ideas.  I don't say they are wrong, but I always like to
point out the uncertainty factor in any data.  

1)  The hair.  Fashions repeat themselves.  People don't
necessarily draw what is current.  Fashions appear and
dissappear at different times in different places. 

2)  Humanistic hand.  This can be applied to the above as well. 
Formalized styles appear out of what was done commonly (but not
formally) for decades or even centuries in informal settings.  A
good example of this is the 'modern' short form characters used
'only' in the PRC as 'created' under Mao.  Truthfully, all he
did was codify what people had already been doing for at least a
century in informal styles.  Taiwanese have their own short
forms that are mostly similar but not exactly because they have
never been formally codified.  I know we are talking about an
influence more than a codification, but lets not forget that
allot of people usually do something for a while before it
starts to gain enough acceptance to make itself visible.  True,
the introduction of some new idea will sometimes give you a time
period something can't predate, but I'm not sure that's the case
here.  Truthfully, I don't know what the humanistic hand is, but
these are my questions about dating based on style.  I think
we'd need at least one more indicator on top of the other two in
order to make a reliable assumption.  

Like I said, I'm not saying the dates are wrong, I just think we
should keep in mind not get married to the idea before we get to
know the girl a little better.

A humorous side note that may be apropos:  I once got bored at
work and sent an e-mail to all of my employees promising a day
off for the best answer as to why the Grateful Dead used the
dancing bear as a logo.  The best was from a Chinese friend who
said, "Well, you could read allot of things into it, but I think
it's actually much simpler.  It was the only animal they knew
how to draw."

Regards,
Brian

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct  5 19:48:04 2000
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:
> 
> > Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > In the last part of the last degree? People must've already been singing
> > > "This is the dawning of the Age o-of Pi-isces" in the streets! ;-)
> >
> >       Or,
> >
> >       "What rough beast, his hour come round at last,
> >       "Slouches towards Eridu to be born?"
> >
> > Incidentally.  Scholars, over the last ten years, have
> > discovered that the Mithraic cult of the middle to late
> > Roman empire originated from the discovery that the sky
> > was going from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Pisces.
> 
> Slight problem with that.
> 
> Astrologically, there was the Age of Taurus (~4-2000 BCE), then Aries
> (~2000-1 BCE), then Pisces (~1-2000 CE), and we're now on the cusp of
> Aquarius ~2-4000 CE).

	But I'm sure I've got the Mithraic cult placed
properly in time.  From "H.G. Wells' Pocket History of
the World", pp. 174-5: "The rise of the Roman Empire
opened the western European world to this growing cult
[Serapis-Isis cult]...  But there were many rivals to
the Serapis-Isis religion.  Prominent among these was
Mithraism. This was a religion of Persian origin, and
it centered upon some now forgotten mysteries about
Mithras' sacrificing a sacred and benevolent bull...
The bull upon the Mithraic monuments always bleeds
copiously from a wound in its side, and from this blood
springs new life."  That was written in 1941, long
before the new theory. 
 
> That would be Age of Taurus, then, when Egyptians, Minoans and others
> following astrology revered the bull; the Hebrew people moved away from
> (Taurus) bull worship to (Aries) ram/lamb slaughter at the cusp of
> Taurus/Aries. 

	My references definitely place Mithraism during the
Roman Empire

> All ancient civilizations following
> astrology, which Jung called "the psychology of the ancients," brought
> their religious practices into conformance with the current Age.

	But there are two very important exceptions - Judaism
and Christianity.  The Jews had to do some contortions
to adapt their one invisible God to traditional
cosmology.  Seven was a sacred number to ancient
cultures because the Babylonians had discovered that
one could predict the motions of the sun, the moon, and
the five visible planets by assuming that they were
mounted on crystal celestial spheres with differing
rate of rotation.  The Jews brought this to their way
of thinking by saying that God created the world in
seven days; the stars were merely lights in the sky,
instead of gods.  Twelve was sacred because of the
twelve tribes of Israel, not because there are about
twelve lunar cycles per solar cycle.  

	Were it not for all that, I'm not sure what would be
common belief now.  Westerners don't believe in the
four classical elements - earth, water, fire, and air -
but I've heard an Indian yoga teacher mention earth,
water, air, fire -- and ether!  (The Easterners don't
think that "nature abhors a vacuum".)  Astrology
probably would have been destroyed not by religion but
by science.

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 14:57:51 2000
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From: Brian Eric Farnell <bfarnell@gte.net>
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Dennis wrote:
> 
>Twelve was sacred because of the
> twelve tribes of Israel, not because there are about
> twelve lunar cycles per solar cycle.

Not that it's really important, but, I believe 12 came to be
special because of practicality, it was easily divisible.  12
and 60 became the basis of Babylonian (pretty sure) numbering
system, leaving us with the system used for time.  Numerologies
of the ancients valued 'strange' properties like this in the
same way that alchemists would later assign mystical attributes
to the incorruptability of gold.  Another example is the Norse
9, and let's not forget the most ominous numbers of them all,
the squares of the numbers 1,2&3 used to make a black monolith
with a ratio 1:4:9!
Regards,
Brian

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 14:51:17 2000
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:48:21 -0700
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From: jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)
Subject: Re: Marche: VMS zodiac based on Hermetic sources going back to Dendera
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Brian Eric Farnell <bfarnell@gte.net>
>
>I hate to shoot holes in data without any better alternative to
>offer (actually I love it), but there are some problems with
>these ideas.  I don't say they are wrong, but I always like to
>point out the uncertainty factor in any data.
>
>1)  The hair.  Fashions repeat themselves.  People don't
>necessarily draw what is current.  Fashions appear and
>dissappear at different times in different places.
>
You bring up some really good points. Yes fasions are cyclical and revived
from time to time. There is a story by one Wilhlem Jensen called Gradiva,
which uses this so an early 19th century lady is thought to be a ghost from
pompeii. Late 19th centrury ladies 1880s revieved the polinaise so popular
at the time of the french revoloution.
Hair on the other hand does betray it's time. I base my observations on
sculpture, painting and film. When we interpret costume, this is our
source.
Even when wigs are used, there are diffrences. Compare the costumes in the
film Amadeus. This looks like it was made in the 1980s. The hair and wigs
in Dangerous liasons look like the 1990s. An MGM quill pen epic from the
30s looks diffrent than one from the 50s. Even if a designer wants a given
look. A lady will allways adjust thing to her taste.
To me the illustartions look pre or about the time of columbus. I do give
this an error of 100 years. More to the 16th that the 15 ceintury.
 A few hours with image collections is a museum like the V&A in London or
online like www.thinker.org (The San Francisco museums) And anyone can
check my estimate.
Another point in a 1470 to 1530 esimate is the dimintionality in the
drawing. While there will be gifted observers. People in the 13th and 14th
century seemed to draw flat, more aligory than optics.

-julieP





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>need a good Knights Templar theory.  Did Mary and
>Martha escape to the south of France (Gaul)
>with the Magdalen and her and Jesus' children?   Then
>the nymphs would be Mary Magdalen.
>The herbal drawings could be symbolic of the offspring
>of the House of David.  But as Jews
>they definitely would not have drawn the astrological
>diagrams...  And the date and script
>would be way off, putting it mildly.  'Fraid not.
>
>Dennis
Actually I was using the generic names of the cloisterd sisters, who in
1487 wrote the thing to as a practical joke at the expense of the
caligriphy teacher. I did not mean the namesakes. Perhaps I should have
written Sister Mary and Sister Martha. :->
-julieP



From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 14:12:48 2000
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From: "Gabriele Ferri" <fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: what we know about the VMS' creation time
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:35:47 +0200
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First of all, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Gabriele Ferri and
I'm an Italian student in Literature and Sciences of Communication. Right
now, I'm studying for an exam in ancient Italian Literature and, in the
past, I've passed an exam in Latin Literature, so I hope I'll be useful to
the list on some topics.


I understand that you've been discussing all that matter for years, so I
don't suppose at all to come up with some brand new ideas. I just thought
that it could be useful to suggest a method that is used frequently by
researchers. (just my 0.02$ worth...)

>
>
>Dennis wrote:
>         Our best indicators to date:
>>
>>         1)  Julie Porter, who has been a costumes mistress at
>> several Renaissance festivals, notes that the nymphs'
>> hairdos date them 1480-1520.
>>
>>         2)  Jim Reeds talked to Prof. Sergio Toresella about
>> the influence of the "humanist hand" on the Voynich
>> script.  The "humanist hand", the bridge between the
>> Gothic script of the Middle Ages and the Italic script
>> of modern times, was used only for a few decades in the
>> 15th century.
>
>I hate to shoot holes in data without any better alternative to
>offer (actually I love it), but there are some problems with
>these ideas.  I don't say they are wrong, but I always like to
>point out the uncertainty factor in any data.
>

<snip>

Usually, when you've got a manuscript and you want to know when it has been
written, you follow a pretty standard procedure:

*PHASE 1*
you can do this for a first idea of the manuscript, it works for most common
writings and it doesn't require access to any other external source.
1 - you look for an explicit reference in the text
1a - lacking an explicit reference, you look for an implicit one (that is,
for example, the nymph' hair)
2 - analysis of the language and the style, and also of the illustrations

*PHASE 2*
you use this when phase 1 is not successful
3 - you research the history of the manuscript, looking for an account of
when and where it did appear
4 - you compare the writing, the style and the illustrations with other ones
from different periods and places (that is, for example, the "humanist
hand")
4a - you start a accurate philological and semantic research, looking
especially for words or informations or illustrations that couldn't be done
before a specific period of time

*PHASE 3*
this include laboratory analysis, which is often completely useless but in a
few cases can unveil some technique (for example engraving or some kind of
ink) which is specific of a century. It can, in some case, unveil a forgery.
I'm not very familiar with phase 3, but it's mostly a microscope analysis
and UVs, but I've also heard that some techniques used for the restoration
of pieces of art can be used in this phase.

So, obviously step 1 cannot be used for the VMS. Steps 1a and 2 can be used
for image-analysis, but, sadly I cannot recognise any specific style in the
illustration. (Anyway, I'm going to show them to a friend in the History of
Art department in my University). Step 2 can also mean that we should look
for encoding / phonetical translation / artificial language as complex as
the VMS, so we should be able to determine in which century such a complex
work was possible.

I think that step 3 points to Prague and Rudolph II, isn't it? That should
be a strong evidence. Step 4 cannot be applied, but step 4a can (if there's
a sunflower painted).

Of course we cannot use phase 3, but it could be interesting to know if such
techinques of analysis has been already used on the VMS.


Gabriele Ferri

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 12:34:48 2000
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Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:30:20 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	I trust everyone's heard about the events in Beograd
yesterday.  The Russians sent Russian Foreign Minister
Igor Ivanov to congratulate Kostunica on his victory,
so Slobo is really finished.  Ivanov is also supposed
to meet Miloshevich in his secret hideout, presumably
to discuss asylum.  

	The Serbian Free B92 Radio on the Web has the best and
latest news:

http://news.freeb92.net/

The English news is up to date at the moment (1512Z) ,
although the Serbo-Croat news has often been 5-6 hours
ahead of the English, Hungarian, and Albanian news.  I
thought our Slavicists and Hungariophones might be
interested.  

	Thank God Slobo is gone, after ten years, hundreds of
thousands of deaths, tens of thousands of rapes, the
beautiful and tolerant city of Sarajevo in ruins, and
millions of refugees!  

ObVms:  I'm still reeling in shock from learning that
the VMs has 8200 words (dictionary entries).  I think
I'll work on Hamptonese for a while.

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 12:27:44 2000
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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:03:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Sky & Telescope article
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:

> Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> > On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:
> > > Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In the last part of the last degree? People must've already been singing
> > > > "This is the dawning of the Age o-of Pi-isces" in the streets! ;-)
> > >
> > >       Or,
> > >
> > >       "What rough beast, his hour come round at last,
> > >       "Slouches towards Eridu to be born?"
> > >
> > > Incidentally.  Scholars, over the last ten years, have
> > > discovered that the Mithraic cult of the middle to late
> > > Roman empire originated from the discovery that the sky
> > > was going from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Pisces.
> > 
> > Slight problem with that.
> > 
> > Astrologically, there was the Age of Taurus (~4-2000 BCE), then Aries
> > (~2000-1 BCE), then Pisces (~1-2000 CE), and we're now on the cusp of
> > Aquarius ~2-4000 CE).
> 
> But I'm sure I've got the Mithraic cult placed properly in time.  
> From "H.G. Wells' Pocket History of the World", pp. 174-5: "The rise
> of the Roman Empire opened the western European world to this growing
> cult [Serapis-Isis cult]...  But there were many rivals to the
> Serapis-Isis religion.  Prominent among these was Mithraism. This was
> a religion of Persian origin, and it centered upon some now forgotten
> mysteries about Mithras' sacrificing a sacred and benevolent bull...
> The bull upon the Mithraic monuments always bleeds copiously from a
> wound in its side, and from this blood springs new life."  That was
> written in 1941, long before the new theory.

I wasn't questioning your positioning of it at all, Dennis, but providing
hopefully a more stable backdrop. Like the Serapis-Isis cult, then, this
was dredged up from the Age of Taurus during the period of the Great New
Year by the Romans on the cusp of Pisces. Now what you said makes more
sense, given Roman acquisitiveness of all things ancient and religious.
  
> > That would be Age of Taurus, then, when Egyptians, Minoans and others
> > following astrology revered the bull; the Hebrew people moved away from
> > (Taurus) bull worship to (Aries) ram/lamb slaughter at the cusp of
> > Taurus/Aries. 
> 
> My references definitely place Mithraism during the Roman Empire

Got it, now.

> > All ancient civilizations following
> > astrology, which Jung called "the psychology of the ancients," brought
> > their religious practices into conformance with the current Age.
> 
> But there are two very important exceptions - Judaism and
> Christianity.

Both of them officially repudiate astrology, I believe. Judaism moved from
bull-worship to ram/lamb-slaughter and then stopped. A small group of
Christian Jews got hijacked by Paul to move from ram/lamb-slaughter to
fishing and then stopped.

> The Jews had to do some contortions to adapt their one invisible God
> to traditional cosmology.

We could just as well say this was the continuation, a la Moses, of the
one-invisible-god competing religious sect of Egyptian Amun (whence still
"Amen"), brought into the Aries Age.

> Seven was a sacred number to ancient cultures because the Babylonians
> had discovered that one could predict the motions of the sun, the
> moon, and the five visible planets by assuming that they were mounted
> on crystal celestial spheres with differing rate of rotation.  The
> Jews brought this to their way of thinking by saying that God created
> the world in seven days; the stars were merely lights in the sky,
> instead of gods.  Twelve was sacred because of the twelve tribes of
> Israel, not because there are about twelve lunar cycles per solar
> cycle.

I'd have to question the last chicken-and-egg statement, since the fairly
newfangled solar (male) cycles being MORE important than the lunar cycles
(female -- 'unlucky' 13) theoretically would date from the beginning of
male Aries.

As to the rest, we'll have to put those to the side to figure, then, why
seven is also highly important in Native North America as well. Prayers
greet the Four Directions, Above, Below, and Inner. There were seven
primary "movers" in the sky: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and
Saturn. Twelve solar vs 13 lunar cycles. All the ancients, everywhere,
studied the stars for hints to prepare for catastrophe or timing for
ceremonies. It's so funny how our current global culture has divorced
itself from this ancient knowledge and knowledge of ancients.
 
> Were it not for all that, I'm not sure what would be common belief
> now.  Westerners don't believe in the four classical elements - earth,
> water, fire, and air - but I've heard an Indian yoga teacher mention
> earth, water, air, fire -- and ether!  (The Easterners don't think
> that "nature abhors a vacuum".)  Astrology probably would have been
> destroyed not by religion but by science.

Only by scientism, the totalizing belief in science as the only true
repository of knowledge. The left-brain half of astrology got a great
boost from the better tools which emerged from science, but its principles
of "observation, correlation, prediction" adopted by science remained the
same.

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                                   -- Roy, Mystery Men



From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 15:23:59 2000
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    > So, obviously step 1 cannot be used for the VMS.
    
Right. And steps 1a and 2 have been tried hard, with little success.
The hair/dress style seems to be the strongest clue we have so far...

    > I think that step 3 points to Prague and Rudolph II, isn't it?
    > That should be a strong evidence.
    
Yes, but that was about 100 years after the presumed date of the
manuscript; and manuscripts from all over the world found their way to
Prague in those times, especially in the time of Rudolf and his army
of alchemists. (The Czech National Library owns a substantial
collection of Arabic, Persian and Turkish books, for instance.)

    > Step 4 cannot be applied, but step 4a can (if there's
    > a sunflower painted).

That is only a wild conjecture; the plant could as well be any other
plant with composite flowers (daisy, chamomille, ...)

    > Of course we cannot use phase 3, but it could be interesting to
    > know if such techinques of analysis has been already used on the
    > VMS.

Yes, that would be useful. However the vellum could have been imported
or carried in someone's luggage; and writing ink for vellum was made
according to the same formula, simple but strict, from the 12th to the
20th century. So there is little hope that the analysis would reveal
anything definite. Unless sunflower pollen was found trapped in the writing
ink...

However, comparing the available color images of the VMS with images
of other manuscripts, I have the impression that the VMS ink is rather
pale, the wrong shade of brown, and quite prone to fading. It may be
just an imaging problem, or it may be that the ink is not the standard
formula (which was universaly used precisely because it was
waterproof, scratch-proof, and would not fade with time). If true,
that would be yet another odd feature of this book.

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 17:09:33 2000
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Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:10:05 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Julie Porter wrote:
> 
> Brian Eric Farnell <bfarnell@gte.net>
> >
> >1)  The hair.  Fashions repeat themselves.  People don't
> >necessarily draw what is current.  Fashions appear and
> >dissappear at different times in different places.
> >
> You bring up some really good points. Yes fasions are cyclical and revived
> from time to time.

	Since Julie addressed the first issue, I'll try to
address the second one.

> 2)  Humanistic hand.  This can be applied to the above as well.
> Formalized styles appear out of what was done commonly (but not
> formally) for decades or even centuries in informal settings.  A
> good example of this is the 'modern' short form characters used
> 'only' in the PRC as 'created' under Mao.  Truthfully, all he
> did was codify what people had already been doing for at least a
> century in informal styles.  Taiwanese have their own short
> forms that are mostly similar but not exactly because they have
> never been formally codified.  I know we are talking about an
> influence more than a codification, but lets not forget that
> allot of people usually do something for a while before it
> starts to gain enough acceptance to make itself visible.  True,
> the introduction of some new idea will sometimes give you a time
> period something can't predate, but I'm not sure that's the case
> here.  Truthfully, I don't know what the humanistic hand is, but
> these are my questions about dating based on style.  I think
> we'd need at least one more indicator on top of the other two in
> order to make a reliable assumption.

	In fact we do have more than one indicator here.  

	First.  I've been keeping a file of clippings from the
list on what seem to me to be fairly definite
historical precedents to things in the VMs:

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/precednt.txt

	There is the humanist hand, probably dated any time in
the 1400's.  It was a transitional form itself.  

	There is also a book of late-14th century cipher
scripts by a chancery crippie named Trandechino.  The
cipher scripts in his book show that the Voynich script
is well within the repertory of cipher scripts in use
in the late 1400's.  A scan of some of Trandechino's
scripts is available, but I can't find where.  

	Finally, we've seen a letter with embellishments that
look exactly like the gallows letters.  From a note by
Jim Reeds:

> But I can refer to one of the few photographic facsimilies in my copy (well,
> really my wife's copy) of Cappelli's Dizionario (the 1967 reprint of what
> appears to be the 1929 edition), namely "Tavola IV", which shows a letter
> "1172, Giugno 13 -- Savino abbate del monastero di S. Savino in Piacenza
> investe il mugnaio Gerardo Albarola per se e suoi eredi maschi in perpetuo,
> di un mulio di ragione del detto moasstero -- Scritura carolina. --
> Pergamena origen., conservata nell'Archivio di Stato di Parma, monastero
> di S. Savino." with glorious gallows letters all over it.

	I can hardly describe the excitement that swept
through the list when we saw a scan of this page!!
We've seen so few things as definite.  However, I don't
know the date of this letter.   

	I don't want to be too long-winded, so look at the
Historical Precedents file for more details.

Dennis

From reeds Fri Oct  6 17:27:30 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
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        "Re: Marche: VMS zodiac based on Hermetic sources going back to Dendera" (Oct  6, 16:10)
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On Oct 6, 16:10, Dennis wrote:

...

> 	Finally, we've seen a letter with embellishments that
> look exactly like the gallows letters.  From a note by
> Jim Reeds:
> 
> > But I can refer to one of the few photographic facsimilies in my copy (well,
> > really my wife's copy) of Cappelli's Dizionario (the 1967 reprint of what
> > appears to be the 1929 edition), namely "Tavola IV", which shows a letter
> > "1172, Giugno 13 -- Savino abbate del monastero di S. Savino in Piacenza
> > investe il mugnaio Gerardo Albarola per se e suoi eredi maschi in perpetuo,
> > di un mulio di ragione del detto moasstero -- Scritura carolina. --
> > Pergamena origen., conservata nell'Archivio di Stato di Parma, monastero
> > di S. Savino." with glorious gallows letters all over it.
> 
> 	I can hardly describe the excitement that swept
> through the list when we saw a scan of this page!!
> We've seen so few things as definite.  However, I don't
> know the date of this letter.   

My letter to this list was dated Saturday, 1 Feb 1992, and again
on Monday 9 June 1997.  The letter illustrated in Cappelli is 
dated Tuesday 13 June 1172. 



-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 18:01:22 2000
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    > However, I don't know the date of [Capelli's letter
    > with gallows].

The date is on the "letter" itself, 13 june 1172. It is actually a
notarial document recording the concession by the abbey of S. Savino in
Piacenza of a mill of theirs to miller Gerardo Albarola and his
heirs in perpetuity etc. etc. As I remember, it is signed by the abbot,
several monks as witnesses, the miller (not sure), and the public 
scribe / notary who prepared it.

Rene and I noticed similar lettering on the decree that established the
Strahov Monastery in Prague, very roughly from the same epoch.

So the date is way too old.  But of course the VMs author could have 
taken his inspiration from old handwriting when he designed the 
VMS alphabet (as modern font designers and calligraphers often do). 

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct  6 19:20:59 2000
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Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 23:22:48 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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For the kookie file in the Voynich archives:

http://www.geocities.com/chemosh_of_ammon/NGC1987A.html

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct  7 11:46:43 2000
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Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:54:32 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Gabriele Ferri wrote:

> Usually, when you've got a manuscript and you want to know when it has been
> written, you follow a pretty standard procedure:
> 
> *PHASE 1*
> you can do this for a first idea of the manuscript, it works for most common
> writings and it doesn't require access to any other external source.
> 1 - you look for an explicit reference in the text

There seems only to be the ownership signature of Jacobus de Tepenec.

> 1a - lacking an explicit reference, you look for an implicit one (that is,
> for example, the nymph' hair)

This is the list maintained by Dennis, of which some items are more
relevant
than others. Already before our mailing list started, the period 1470 -
early
years of 16th Century was the tentative conclusion.

> 2 - analysis of the language and the style, and also of the illustrations

Similar to above, but the experts have been very hesitant, stating that
there
is not really a good basis for comparison.
 
> *PHASE 2*
> you use this when phase 1 is not successful
> 3 - you research the history of the manuscript, looking for an account of
> when and where it did appear

This did not add much to the 'Tepenec' evidence. Earliest known
reference
is the purchase by Rudolf II.

> 4 - you compare the writing, the style and the illustrations with other ones
> from different periods and places (that is, for example, the "humanist
> hand")

Indeed, but the reliability of this is again limited as for point (2)
above.

> 4a - you start a accurate philological and semantic research, looking
> especially for words or informations or illustrations that couldn't be done
> before a specific period of time

Cannot be done for the VMs text. Possibly a new clue is at is
the bottom of the famous f79v. This has a 'pool' with various
animals. On the right is a heraldic-looking lion (with a not
too heraldic head :-) ) and above that is a very indistinct,
oddly crumpled animal which looks suspiciously like the
golden-fleece emblem as worn by Rudolf in his various
portraits and busts. This order (and presumably its emblem) was
started in 1430 so here we'd have a 'terminus post quem'. Like
almost all such identifications it is highly contestable.

> *PHASE 3*
> this include laboratory analysis, which is often completely useless but in a
> few cases can unveil some technique (for example engraving or some kind of
> ink) which is specific of a century. It can, in some case, unveil a forgery.
> I'm not very familiar with phase 3, but it's mostly a microscope analysis
> and UVs, but I've also heard that some techniques used for the restoration
> of pieces of art can be used in this phase.

The laboratory analysis has not been done, but various experts
have looked at the manuscript itself. Nobody seems to have ever
found anything at odds with the time frame mentioned above, and 
a 'central European' provenance. One recent statement by the
Beinecke library curator responsible for the Voynich MS (Dr. R.
Babcock) is:

   "The color, the way its prepared, the thickness.... 
    It doesnt look at all out of place with other
    sixteenth-century manuscripts." (In: Lev Grossman, When words
    fail, Lingua Franca, April 1999.)

To:

    > Of course we cannot use phase 3, but it could be interesting to
    > know if such techinques of analysis has been already used on the
    > VMS.

Jorge Stolfi replied:

> Yes, that would be useful. However the vellum could have been imported
> or carried in someone's luggage; 

I can't resist :-)
There are some places where no sensible person would bother carrying a 
pile of parchment. In Dutch there's the expression 'carrying water to
the sea'. 

Cheers, Rene

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Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 18:24:42 +0200
From: "Rafal T. Prinke" <rafalp@amu.edu.pl>
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Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> > 3 - you research the history of the manuscript, looking for an account of
> > when and where it did appear
> 
> This did not add much to the 'Tepenec' evidence. Earliest known
> reference
> is the purchase by Rudolf II.

And even this is not "hard evidence" (even though quite probable).

> I can't resist :-)
> There are some places where no sensible person would bother carrying a
> pile of parchment. In Dutch there's the expression 'carrying water to
> the sea'.

Interesting - IIRC in English it is "carrying coal to Manchester"
and in Russian it is "carrying samovars to Tula" (but nothing
similar in Polish).

Perhaps it is not quite off topic to mention the expressions
for something totally impossible to understand, such as
"double Dutch" in English and "Turkish sermon" in Polish
(a connection to the Turkish hypothesis? <g>).

BTW: I will see the 2 books on medieval Zodiacal iconography
by prof. Sniezynska-Stolas on Monday. There is a third book
by her, too, but not the university library here.

Best regards,

Rafal

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct  7 13:21:52 2000
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: OT: The End of Miloshevich
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Do you imply that with Miloshevich out of the way VMS will finally be
decoded? BDW. the secret hideout turned out to be the guy's home which
he seemed to have not left even for a moment. Miloshevich seems to be an
unpleasant character, a former communist apparatchik, etc, but it is an
exaggeration to blame on him all the massacres etc. There is a whole
busload of other actors not any more sympathetic than that guy,
including many in positions of power both in the Balkans and elsewhere,
including this great coutry of free and brave. Black and white are not
the only colors.  Cheers, ladies and gentlemen.and let us dance. Mark

Dennis wrote:

>         I trust everyone's heard about the events in Beograd
> yesterday.  The Russians sent Russian Foreign Minister
> Igor Ivanov to congratulate Kostunica on his victory,
> so Slobo is really finished.  Ivanov is also supposed
> to meet Miloshevich in his secret hideout, presumably
> to discuss asylum.
>
>         The Serbian Free B92 Radio on the Web has the best and
> latest news:
>
> http://news.freeb92.net/
>
> The English news is up to date at the moment (1512Z) ,
> although the Serbo-Croat news has often been 5-6 hours
> ahead of the English, Hungarian, and Albanian news.  I
> thought our Slavicists and Hungariophones might be
> interested.
>
>         Thank God Slobo is gone, after ten years, hundreds of
> thousands of deaths, tens of thousands of rapes, the
> beautiful and tolerant city of Sarajevo in ruins, and
> millions of refugees!
>
> ObVms:  I'm still reeling in shock from learning that
> the VMs has 8200 words (dictionary entries).  I think
> I'll work on Hamptonese for a while.
>
> Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct  7 15:59:01 2000
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From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Rafal responded,

> > Earliest known reference is the purchase by Rudolf II.
> 
> And even this is not "hard evidence" (even though quite probable).

Probable especially since it is so credible.
I just read Evans for the first time, and was sorry I had not read
the book before. Voynich was wrong about Dee being the most likely
person to sell the VMs to Rudolf, but of course he didn't have the
luxury of having access to this source. The elder Strada, Khevenhueller
and indeed Pontanus are even more likely sources IMHO. Evans even
points out that Pontanus and Tepenec (whom he consistently calls
Sinapius) were friends of sorts, which I think is quite interesting.
Evans' source for Tepenec and Pontanus was Balbin, who wrote in Latin,
so the Latinised forms of the names are understandable. Now what bothers
me is that Balbin was a good (close?) friend of Marci. If Pontanus
and/or Tepenec were known to have owned the Voynich MS, wouldn't 
Balbin have told Marci?

All speculation, I realise.

Evans also states (at least in the 1970's issue) that Pontanus'
library was widely dispersed, with lots of material now being
buried in a.o. the Strahov library, and that there is no complete
overview of where his books and MSS have gone since it is too big
a task. Not sure if that is still true now, but it gives us some
hope that there may still be things to be discovered somewhere.
 
> > In Dutch there's the expression 'carrying water to the sea'.
> 
> Interesting - IIRC in English it is "carrying coal to Manchester"

Coal yes, but I think I heard it was Newcastle.

> Perhaps it is not quite off topic to mention the expressions
> for something totally impossible to understand, such as
> "double Dutch"

... or "it's all Greek to me". The closest equivalent in Dutch 
is "koeterwaals" (German: "Kauderwelsch"). No idea what that
refers to, actually.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct  7 16:33:37 2000
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> For the kookie file in the Voynich archives:
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/chemosh_of_ammon/NGC1987A.html

	Boy, this IS kooky!  Such talent gone to waste...  Is
that a nymph in Cassiopeia's Chair?  Hard to tell with
the blood.

	But now we know:  the nymphs in f78r are the Seven
Sisters!  What a crib!

	But wait!  There's a blue substance pouring into the
vat, and the next thing you know...

	A *blue* lady in f82r!!!  So THAT'S what the vats are
for... to make homunculae!!!

	The nymphs are homunculae!  So we just need to get the
recipes for the vat liquid from the herbal pages, and
we can make homunculae to our hearts' content!!!  Think
of the possibilities ...

	And I thought the vats contained the antique
contraceptive herb silphium!  Silly me...

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct  7 18:24:01 2000
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Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> Evans' source for Tepenec and Pontanus was Balbin, who wrote in Latin,
> so the Latinised forms of the names are understandable. Now what bothers
> me is that Balbin was a good (close?) friend of Marci. If Pontanus
> and/or Tepenec were known to have owned the Voynich MS, wouldn't
> Balbin have told Marci?

But we do not know if he (Balbin) knew about the VMS. The images
of Balbin's manuscript on great Bohemian writers (I don't remember
the title right now) is available on the Web site of the National
Library in Prague - but unfortunately the resolution makes it 
practically illegible.

Rudolf may have got the VMS from practically anyone who visited
Prague so any guesses are unfounded (just as it was with Dee).
As it is highly probable that Sinapius owned it for some time
and that he received it from Pontanus (whose one other MS he had),
and as Evans says they were on friendly terms (I have not read
his book as there seems to be no copy in Poland), perhaps
the correspondence of Pontanus survives somewhere? Perhaps
he wrote to someone in Europe about it? Anyway, he may now
be counted among those who (most probably) saw the VMS.

> > Interesting - IIRC in English it is "carrying coal to Manchester"
> 
> Coal yes, but I think I heard it was Newcastle.

Oops... of course :-)

> The closest equivalent in Dutch
> is "koeterwaals" (German: "Kauderwelsch"). No idea what that
> refers to, actually.

Incredible! I have always wondered what it mean in the poem
of a 19th c. folk poet from the Bohemian Sudeten (and a very
distant relative of mine):

   Und Bhmen ist mein Vaterland
   Ob zwar ich bmisch nichts verstand.
   Ich verstand als Kind die deutsche Sprache nicht,
   Weil man hier deutsch kauderwllisch spricht.

Could this refer to the Walonian dialect of treasure seekers
(and their books!) which was discussed some time ago?

Best regards,

Rafal

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct  8 05:54:56 2000
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From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Rafal wrote:

> But we do not know if he (Balbin) knew about the VMS. 

we don't, but as a historian writing relatively short after the
events, he is a potentially interesting source. He did write about
Jacobus, and was Schmidl's main source for him.

> The images of Balbin's manuscript on great Bohemian writers
> (I don't remember the title right now) is available on the
> Web site of the National Library in Prague - but unfortunately
> the resolution makes it practically illegible.

Evans quotes 'Bohemia Docta (Prague 1777)'.

> Rudolf may have got the VMS from practically anyone who visited
> Prague so any guesses are unfounded (just as it was with Dee).
> As it is highly probable that Sinapius owned it for some time
> and that he received it from Pontanus (whose one other MS he had),
> and as Evans says they were on friendly terms (I have not read
> his book as there seems to be no copy in Poland)

It is a must read, :-)

> the correspondence of Pontanus survives somewhere? Perhaps
> he wrote to someone in Europe about it? Anyway, he may now
> be counted among those who (most probably) saw the VMS.

Evans has quite a bit to say about him, which I can't repeat
right now for lack of time. Just this:

  He was a friend and associate of Zdenek Lobkovic [...]
  associated with a circle of Counter-reforming propagandists
  [...]. These men were grouped around Lohelius, abbot of
  Strahov [...] and they included Catholics [...] like [...]
  and the physician Sinapius.
  [Pontanus] was a very familiar person at court [...] and a
  well-known poet in the circle of Westonia [...] 
  His extant MS writings include, beside scribbled Latin elegies
  [...] various vocabulary compilations, among them a Rottwelsche
  Grammatik of thieves' or gypsies' cant.

there are several references. I'll write more fully soon.
 
Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct  8 22:18:10 2000
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Reply-To: "Billy Hutton" <huttonb@home.com>
From: "Billy Hutton" <huttonb@home.com>
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 07:19:05 -0700
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Hello,

I have a  recent interest in the VMS.  I am curious if any list members have
a reproduction of the VMS for their research.  I may be in Connecticut later
this year, and I am thinking about trying to see the original at Yale, if at
all possible.

What do you all think about a published reproduction of the VMS?  I don't
believe such a thing exists, and if this is true, I am very much interested
in making a reproduction a reality.

I thought I read somewhere that someone is attributed with "owning" the VMS.
Is this true?

Thanks,
Billy

From reeds Sun Oct  8 18:29:26 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:29:26 -0400
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FYI.

There is a wonderful compilation of web resources in
Paleography, Codicilogy, etc, recently put together by
a Robert D. Peckham, a Medtextl list member.

It is http://www.mun.ca/mst/medtext/TennBob.html .

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct  8 19:20:47 2000
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    > [stolfi:] But even if we were to use the true Voynichese
    > alphabet, the KMC strucure would probably prevent [Sukhotin's]
    > algorithm from finding enough CV and VC transitions to call home
    > about.

    > [Jacques:] Not sure. I once tried the algorithm on a word list
    > of a language of Vanuatu which was 90% consonants -- but had 10
    > vowels. Every vowel identified, none misidentified.

What I meant is that the KMC model allows at most one CV and one VC
transition per "word", for any plausible C-V partition of the
alphabet; so all partitions would look equally wrong to the algorithm
(and to us). Except for the partition V = {a o y e} --- which probably
gives enough transitions to satisfy Sukhotin, but doesn't seem to be
right for other reasons.

    > If gallows are tonal marks they won't occur alone. Ditto if they
    > mark vowel/consonant length or/and aspiration. Ever  seen a
    > spiritus asper occur alone in Greek, and a shaddah without
    > a letter underneath in Arabic? (Not to mention a Portuguese
    > tilde without an a, an o, or an e, but not an n!)

Right...

    > [stolfi:] Curiously, the tones [of Tibetan] are denoted
    > (inconsistently) by prefixing certain dummy consonants to the
    > syllable, like b and r in "'byung rtsis" d ("astronomy").

    > [Jacques:] No, the tone is determined by the final consonant, which
    > is most often lost in pronunciation.

Oops, thanks for the correction.

    > [stolfi:] the pleiades are called "sMen-du's" in Tibetan.
    > Can we match that to EVA <doaro>?
    
    > [Rene:] But doaro (or doary) is not a _very_ typical Voynichese
    > word and fits the KMC model only with a stretch (unless I am
    > mistaken, please correct). Thus, it could be a 'foreign' word in
    > whatever language the MS is mainly written in.

Indeed, because of the <oa> group (two consecutive circles) which is 
very rare. 

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct  8 20:10:25 2000
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    > [Jacques Guy:] [EVA "daiin" = Chinese "de"] would be too good to
    > be true. Chinese de is (roughly) a possessive, like English 's.
    > But daiin often occurs reduplicated, impossible in Chinese, at
    > least the Chinese(s) I know.

Those frequent (?)  repetitions may be a problem for the Chinese theory,
but they are even more of a problem for the "nomenclator" and "artificial
language" theories.

In fact, the Chinese theory has somewhat of an advantage 
over the other two, as Brian points out:

    > Actually, that duplication is perfectly possible in Chinese,
    > though they tend to avoid it because it sounds bad. There are
    > three different 'de' characters that all perform very similar
    > grammatical functions [...] If you want to play along that line
    > of thinking, look for a similar pattern of 'yi' at the beginning
    > of words, these actually have very pronounced and obvious tones
    > ('de's all slide toward neutral) but there are a bunch of them
    > and I can see how they might be appended at word beginnings.

Moreover, the very first sample of Chinese pinyin which I got 
had this repetition on line 2:

  ... ping2 jia1 zhi1 yi1 yi1 ba1 ba1 yi1 nian2 chu1 ...
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                     
But now, having made the case for Chinese, let me point out what I
think is the most serious problem with that theory. Unless I have made
another big blooper, I believe the following are true:

  (1) half of the tokens have one "gallows" letter <k> <t>
      <p> <f>, half have none;
      
  (2) half of the tokens have one or more "bench" letters 
      (<ch>, <sh>, <ee>), half have none
      
  (3) there is no obvious statistical correlation between 
      presence of gallows and presence of benches.
      
These identities are not perfect (and it couldn't be, given the rate
of trancription errors), but the discrepancies seem to be within range
for random sampling of a fair coin. 

It is hard to imagine how these balanced statistics could arise in an
alphabetic (phonetic or semi-phonetic) system. Since typical words
have at most one gallows, and the gallows and benches make a compact
cluster in the word, we would be almost forced to conclude that the
gallows/bench cluster encodes the syllable's consonant, while the
remaining letters encode the vowels and tones.

But properties (1-3) above would then say that syllables with empty
consonant account for a full 25% of the text, while syllables with
non-empty consonants account for the remaining 75%. Obviously this is
not the case for Chinese, as we would expect (note that there is only
1 empty consonant but some 20 non-empty ones).

The same problem appears when we analyze only the words that have
gallows: properties (2) and (3) above say that 50% of those words have
no benches, and 50% have them. But there is only one way of placing 0
benches in a word, while there are at least four ways of placing one
bench (ch or sh, before or after the gallows), and many more ways of
placing two benches.

Said another way, it is hard to imagine a code that reserves "no
gallows" for 50% of the words, and all other 8 gallows combinations
(k, t, p, f, ke, te, pe, fe) to the other 50%.  Ditto for the 
benches.

Come to think of it, properties (1-2) are quite strange under any of the
theories I know of.  They seem to suggest that the number and type of
the gallows/benches is irrelevant, only their presence/absence do
matter. I.e., that

  okchody = ochtedy = okeeedy = oshcfhedy = ...
  
Any thoughts? 

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct  8 20:43:51 2000
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PS, just for the record: my pocket dictionary of Cantonese
lists about 5300 characters with about 1800 distinct 
pronounciations (syllables).   

Of course, only a fraction of these would be used in a sample of
36,000+ tokens...

--stolfi

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		<39D2AE9C.446EF5C3@gte.net> <200010090009.e9909n629717@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> Come to think of it, properties (1-2) are quite strange under any of the
> theories I know of.  They seem to suggest that the number and type of
> the gallows/benches is irrelevant, only their presence/absence do
> matter. I.e., that
> 
>   okchody = ochtedy = okeeedy = oshcfhedy = ...
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> --stolfi
Yes, that seems very similar to the way a tone mark would
behave.  It seems to suggest that the gallows and tables are not
letters but some sort of symbol for something else, they are
their own class.  Another possibility is that they are
grammatical markers for person and case.  Along that line of
thinking, if a list were compiled of all words in a certain
class like the gallows w/o tables words, then removing all of
the gallows characters from the words should shorten the length
of the unique word list by a disproportionate amount. 
Potentially it might even shorten it by a factor equal to the
number of characters removed.  
Regards,
Brian

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 02:18:20 2000
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From: Daniel Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: Found on the Net:  Voynich, Andromeda & NGC4038/39
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At 11:22 PM 10/6/2000 +0000, you wrote:
>For the kookie file in the Voynich archives:

>http://www.geocities.com/chemosh_of_ammon/NGC1987A.html

Odd - there are EIGHT women, not seven, in the second Voynich picture, 
plus the lady in blue.  This is obviously some secret Pleiadean doctrine 
I am not acquainted with...

Yrs.,



Daniel Harms     dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu
The Internet:  Learn what you know.  Share what you don't.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 04:48:16 2000
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Daniel Harms wrote:

> Odd - there are EIGHT women, not seven, in the second Voynich picture,
> plus the lady in blue.  This is obviously some secret Pleiadean doctrine
> I am not acquainted with...
The eighth appeared during the persecution of the Knights
Templar, then winked out just as suddenly.  The lady in blue is
the archeotype of the celestial goddess, linking the author of
the VMS to the origins of the new age movement, possibly pinning
him down as part of the Illuminati.  The resemblance of the
nymphs to a young Barbara Bush coupled with George Bush's
association with the mysterious 'Skull and Bones' society
further deepen the mystery.  Since Barbara had undergone
cosmetic surgery we can assume that either George or George and
Barbara both had access to the VMS and reasons to emulate it's
images.  Since George uncharacteristically put money into the
space program we can began to see the Pleidean connection
hypothesized is indeed a possibility, leading us to one
inescapable conclusion:
The Illuminati, of which the VMS author was a member, started as
early as the 1300s to undermine religion with a rebirth of
interest in the old ways, spawning the renaissance and working
into the new age movement of today in order to pave the way for
peaceful acceptance of the Pleideans, allowing them to get a
foothold on the Earth before their true plans of world
domination were launched.  The world domination to be run from
the United Nations under strict control of the cigarette-smoking
man FOX network has tried to warn us about with the X-Files.  In
short, the VMS author is an ancient enemy and Chris Carter is
the saviour of mankind.  Goodbye Andromeda!
Regards,
Brian

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct  8 17:05:56 2000
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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 05:08:33 -0400
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While looking for the document with "gallows-like" embellishments in
Cappelli, I noticed something interesting in another document (Tavola
VI).

In the middle of the document is a sentence transcribed as "Quam Finem
Refutacionem et omnia et singula suprascripta et infrascripta promixit
..." in which all the occurrences of "et" are written with what looks
like d'Imperio's character "s" or EVA "ch" (like two c's with a
ligature).

Bruce

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 08:04:08 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:58:44 +0100
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Subject: An article in Cryptologia
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Does anybody in this group receive Cryptologia?

If so, do you know what is this article about?:

A Note on the Voynich Manuscript. Cryptologia, Volume XXIII 
Number 4 (October 1999) 

Thanks,

Gabriel

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 08:03:54 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:01:59 +0100
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Subject: Channel 4 series
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There is a series by SImon Singh of tv programmes entitled The 
Science of Secrecy, on Channel 4 (UK). 

It seems that the vms will be not be in the series...

http://www.channel4.com/nextstep/secrecy/main.html

Cheers.

Gabriel

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 08:25:53 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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    > [stolfi:] Moreover, the very first sample of Chinese pinyin
    > which I got had this repetition on line 2: 
    > ... ping2 jia1 zhi1 yi1 yi1 ba1 ba1 yi1 nian2 chu1 ...
    > 
    > [Monsieur Jacques:] I cannot figure that out. This is half
    > Classical Chinese at least (zhi1 = modern de). But year
    > 11,881???? From the beginning of year 11,881? 
    > I throw the towel in.

Actually you got it almost right; the year is 1881. Try inserting a
full stop between the first two "yi1"s... 8-)

Sorry for wasting your time. But I won't apologize for cheating ---
recall that there is no punctuation in the VMs, nor (IIRC) in
Chinese texts of that period.

Here is the full quote:

  lu3 xun4 shi4 zhong1 guo2 jin4 dai4 shi3 shang4 zui4 you3 ying3 xiang3 li4
  de wen2 xue2 jia1 gen1 pi1 ping2 jia1 zhi1 yi1 yi1 ba1 ba1 yi1 nian2
  chu1 sheng1 zai4 zhe4 jiang1 shao4 xing1 yi2 ge xiang1 dang1 fu4 yu4 de
  jia1 ting2 li3 tong2 nian2 de shi2 hou yin1 wei4 zu3 fu4 ru4 yu4 fu4 qin
  sheng1 bing4 jia1 ting2 de jing1 ji4 qing2 kuang4 tu1 ran2 bian4 de hen3
  qiong2 kun4 zhe4 zhong3 you2 fu4 yu4 bian4 dao4 qiong2 kun4 de jing1 li4
  rang4 lu3 xun4 ti3 yan4 le bu4 tong2 de sheng1 huo2 zhe4 dui4 ta1 yi3 hou4
  de wen2 xue2 chuang4 zuo4 you3 hen3 da4 de ying3 xiang3 ta1 tong2 nian2 de
  sheng1 huo2 he2 hui2 yi4 dou1 cheng2 le ta1 xie3 zuo4 zui4 hao3 de cai2
  liao4 yin1 wei4 ta1 fu4 qin jing1 chang2 sheng bing4 lu3 xun4 cong2 xiao3
  jiu4 ren4 shi le bu4 shao3 zhong1 yi

The source is some Chinese reader for beginners, by the University of
Michigan --- which I once found in netland, but seems to have
disappeared. Anyway, it was probably not a good sample, since the
vocabulary must have been intentionally simplified.

    > What I find puzzling in VMS is that gallows may occur intruding
    > into ch or next to it. ch is, in my view, a single letter.
    > Gallows, then, should be a suprasegmental feature, like the
    > tilde in Portuguese indicating a nasal vowel.
    
Or, someone may well chose to write the "ts" phoneme as a T
superimposed on an S.

    > And there are four gallows.
    
It is not clear whether <p> and <f> are distinct letters. At present,
I would bet that they are merely "capitalized" variants of <t> and <k>
respectively --- except that the ones with hooked arm may stand for
<te> and <ke>.

On the other hand, for statistical reasons, I am almost convinced that
<te> and <ke> are single letters, as are <che> and <she>.

IIRC, there are no platform gallows (<cth> etc.) in the "key-like
sequences", which may be a hint that they are not single letters.

(There are no <ke> and <te> either in those sequences, which is bad
news; but the author probably viewed them as letter+modifier
combinations, like hiragana's "ga" or Portuguese "". Note that even
though "" and "" are linguistically distinct letters in Portuguese,
I have never, never seen them used as labels in itemized lists...)

    > And they are almost always found on the initial words of
    > paragraphs (ever seen a paragraph without a gallows?)
   
In fact, as John Grove pointed out, the first word of a line often
looks like it had a bogus gallows tacked onto it. I haven't checked
(oops...) but it seems that this phenomenon accounts for a large
fraction of the "anomalous" words with two gallows.

Perhaps line-initial words get prefixed with other letters too, but
those cases would not look anomalous. Ditto for any words without
gallows that got "Grovified" with a gallows.

    > Quite some time ago, I had floated this idea that the gallows
    > had the same function as capitalizing the initials of words. And
    > that VMS had four sets of capital letters: masculine singular,
    > masculine plural, feminine singular, feminine plural. A gallows,
    > then, would be no more than "hit one of the four Shift keys".

It may be.  If it is an artificial language, anything is possible...

    > But the VMS has driven me insane, as it did Newbold and others.
    > Don't pay any attention to my ravings.

That's OK; I suppose the Egyptian hieroglyphics drove many people
insane, too.  It goes with the job...

All the best,

--stolfi


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    > [stolfi:] Come to think of it, properties (1-2) are quite
    > strange under any of the theories I know of. They seem to
    > suggest that the number and type of the gallows/benches is
    > irrelevant, only their presence/absence do matter. I.e., that
    > 
    >   okchedy = ochtedy = okeeedy = oshcfhedy = ...
    
    > [Brian Farnell:] that seems very similar to the way a tone mark
    > would behave. It seems to suggest that the gallows and tables
    > are not letters but some sort of symbol for something else, they
    > are their own class.
    
Perhaps...

    > Another possibility is that they are grammatical markers for
    > person and case. Along that line of thinking, if a list were
    > compiled of all words in a certain class like the gallows w/o
    > tables words, then removing all of the gallows characters from
    > the words should shorten the length of the unique word list by a
    > disproportionate amount. Potentially it might even shorten it by
    > a factor equal to the number of characters removed.

In fact more. Consider removing all "t"'s and "d"'s rom English words.
That not only merges "tip" with "dip", but also merges "at", "tad",
"dad", "add", etc. with "a".

--stolfi

From reeds Mon Oct  9 10:19:27 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:19:26 -0400
In-Reply-To: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
        "An article in Cryptologia" (Oct  9, 12:58)
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On Oct 9, 12:58, Gabriel Landini wrote:

> Subject: An article in Cryptologia
> Does anybody in this group receive Cryptologia?
> 
> If so, do you know what is this article about?:
> 
> A Note on the Voynich Manuscript. Cryptologia, Volume XXIII 
> Number 4 (October 1999) 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gabriel
>-- End of excerpt from Gabriel Landini

I saw it.  My review in
 
http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voyinch/bib.html

says:

Williams, Robert L. ``A Note on the Voynich Manuscript.''
<i>Cryptologia,</i> <b>23</b> (October, 1999), pp. 305-309.
[Author thinks the initial letter distribution is like that of
Greek, but speculates the text is meaningless.]










-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > Another possibility is that they are grammatical markers for
>     > person and case. Along that line of thinking, if a list were
>     > compiled of all words in a certain class like the gallows w/o
>     > tables words, then removing all of the gallows characters from
>     > the words should shorten the length of the unique word list by a
>     > disproportionate amount. Potentially it might even shorten it by
>     > a factor equal to the number of characters removed.
> 
> In fact more. Consider removing all "t"'s and "d"'s rom English words.
> That not only merges "tip" with "dip", but also merges "at", "tad",
> "dad", "add", etc. with "a".
> 
> --stolfi
Yes, but t's and d's are extremely common, change that to the
five vowels in English and you could get some fantastic results.
However, I think if you compared the frequency of what you
dropped to the resulting changes, a set of letters that were a
class unto themselves (tone markers or grammatical markers)
would give you unexpected results.  In completely toned Mandarin
romanization dropping the 4 tones tones would change the unique
word list by a factor of four.  Dropping person markers would
drop it by a factor equal to the number of unique person
endings.  I think with the possible exception of vowels, nothing
else would do that (drop n letters, unique word list is divided
by n).  Perhaps this could occur by accident, but it would be
expected if you had a unique class of characters that looked
like letters but didn't function that way.
Regards,
Brian

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From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
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I was told by an acquaintance that he saw me blithering about the Voynich
Ms. on the History Channel last Friday.  I hadn't been notified by them
that the show would be on then.  I think the two standard reruns have also
already taken place.  It was one segment of their sort-of-weekly program
called "The Most".  If anybody saw it, I'd appreciate hearing how it went.
They shot for about two hours, so I have no idea which 2 or 3 minutes they
would have used.

If I hear of a further rerun I'll post it... hopefully in time, this time.
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Trewesday, 18 Winterfilth S.R. 2000, 19:34
	12.19.7.11.2, 5 Ik 5 Yax, Sixth Lord of Night

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 15:59:35 2000
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From: Grant Covell <GCovell@c-bridge.com>
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Subject: Kyburz's Voynich Cipher Manuscript
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:48:11 -0400 
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Friends--

Over two months ago I offered to provide more info about the recently cited
musical composition that draws upon the Voynich ms.
Here finally are some notes.

Hanspeter Kyburz (b. 1960): The Voynich Cipher Manuscript, for mixed chorus
and ensemble, 1995
recording:
	Donaueschinger Musiktage 1995
	col legno WWE 3CD 31898
	Sudfunk-Chor Stuttgart
	Klangforum Wien
	conducted by Rupert Huber
	recording of the first performance: Oct. 22, 1995
	22:11

The Donaueschinger Musiktage is an annual festival of contemporary music in
Donaueschingen, Germany. The CD label col legno has issued yearly
compilations, 1995's is a 3CD set. Somewhat hard to find, col legno discs
come close to the USD 20 price or more. Their website is:
http://www.col-legno.de/ where this set is priced at EURO 38,29 (??!!) and
DM 75,00.

Hanspeter Kyburz's Notes are in German and English, here is the English:

"The 232-page long Voynich Cipher Manuscript is written in a secret code
what has not been deciphered to this day: the most distinguished experts on
secret codes have failed in the task, as has linguistic computer research
which has been going on for years, although all structural approaches seem
to rule out the possibility of its being a nonsensical text.
"In the 16th century the manuscript was bought and sold for astronomical
prices because it was assumed to be an "elixir of life": the German Emperor
Rudolph II bought it for 600 gold ducats from the famous English man of
learning Dr. John Dee, who as court astrologer, geographer, mathematician,
necromancer and chief spy in one person later became the model for
Shakespeare's Prospero in The Tempest. The fantastic illustrations, which
also bore detailed written explanations, show unknown blossoms and spices as
well as nymphs in a widely-branching network of funnels and tubes, strange
inventions and start constellations which do not exist. They suggest a
medicinal-astrological interpretation and probably represent the main reason
why most researchers have been animated to attempt translations.
"In spite of the positive results of syntactic analyses, the adventurous
source history of the manuscript and the suggestive vividness of the
illustrations, it has not been possible right up to the present day to
reconstruct the significance of this text and with it the background of the
author's experience.
"From the many fragmentary and speculative "solutions", which have always
been refuted within a very short time, I have selected several passages as
text material: series of numbers which are intended to lay the strange
letters open to analysis, Latin and English syllables and series of words
building on these etc.
"Thus the object of the composition is the process of the formation of
meaning, in that hermetic material dissolves in the double motion of
translation, demanding not only the comparative approach to the past but
also the constructive creation of new contexts. The investigation by playing
all of these complex dynamic of translation with all their imponderabilities
is the basic concept of the piece.
"At three central points poems by Velimir Chlebnikov are also recited in the
translation by Oskar Pastior. Chlebnikov's futuristic-archaic "star
language", which oscillates between abstract constructions and etymological
intensification, demands an alchemistic, micro-synthetic method of
translation (Pastior), which makes it possible to express Chlebnikov's
speech-renewing intentions as well as his tendency towards secrecy and
poetic encipherment.

<<poems cited>>

"I would like to dedicate this piece to Oskar Pastior, not without the hope
that he, too, may one day occupy himself with the "star language" of the
Voynich Manuscript."

But what does it sound like? The work opens gently, with quiet murmurings
that eventually open into a more fluid section with solo voices, orchestra
and chorus, each group exploring fragmentary material. There is delicate use
of percussion and piano, and solo instruments and voices emerge and recede
from the fragmentary texture. The Chlebnikov poems lead to more vigorous
sections with more forceful vocal declamation and louder accompanying
orchestral and choral textures.

Personal comments: The sound world is 20th century atonal contemporary
classical. I find the work too "standard" given the subject, as the piece
reflects the gestures and colors I associate with atonal contemporary music.
The chorus does give into occasional laughing and shouting, but I find the
use of "text" too conventional. The work tries to use the some-what nonsense
text on a syllabic level, but as the surrounding sounds are standard and
traditional, it's hard to accept the syllables as sound objects.

Personally, I would probably have created an intentionally non-standard
ensemble (30 violins, or tape, or percussion and low brass) to reflect the
current impenetrability of the work, to reflect how removed the ms is from
our current understanding. Any attempt to create music around the Voynich ms
should reflect some amount of loss of meaning, that is, the music must
intentionally represent a fragment, or be itself flawed or incomplete,
almost perhaps as if it were an academic exercise. I would have preferred a
text that is more fragmentary, or organized in a way that would remove its
intended meaning (nonsense syllables sorted by frequency, by length, etc.).

Aside: I've been taken by the relatively recent discussion to convert the ms
into sound (or bitmap) by mapping each character to a sound (or pixel).
While mapping characters to recognizable pitches seems like a reasonable
approach, the fact that the pitch spectrum would impose an order (some
pitches would be low, some high) and that we'd come to assign some
characters with low notes and some with high would become distracting. I'd
go for the musique concrete approach: creating a library of short but
diverse non-pitched sounds which taken as a whole would have no intrinsic
order or progression (noise, sounds from nature, mechanical sounds, but very
short so that they'd not be recognizable).

Grant.


 

From reeds Mon Oct  9 20:00:08 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
Message-Id: <1001009200008.ZM11376391@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:00:08 -0400
In-Reply-To: reeds@research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
        "Re: An article in Cryptologia" (Oct  9, 10:19)
References: <39E1C104.14029.D7CA1A@localhost> 
	<1001009101927.ZM8004097@fry.research.att.com>
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On Oct 9, 10:19, a typewriter-using monkey wrote:

> Subject: Re: An article in Cryptologia
...
> 
> I saw it.  My review in
>  
> http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voyinch/bib.html

which of course was a typo.  The correct URL is

http://www.research.att.com/~reeds/voynich/bib.html

Sorry about that!

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 21:33:25 2000
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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Brian Eric Farnell <bfarnell@gte.net>
Cc: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Sky & Telescope article
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Brian Eric Farnell wrote:

> Dennis wrote:
> > 
> >Twelve was sacred because of the
> > twelve tribes of Israel, not because there are about
> > twelve lunar cycles per solar cycle.
> 
> Not that it's really important, but, I believe 12 came to be
> special because of practicality, it was easily divisible.  12
> and 60 became the basis of Babylonian (pretty sure) numbering
> system, leaving us with the system used for time.  Numerologies
> of the ancients valued 'strange' properties like this in the
> same way that alchemists would later assign mystical attributes
> to the incorruptability of gold.  

COMMENTS::

1) Oops! If the Babylonians (or any equivalent ancient civilization)
established 12 and (5x12), then they gave this important numbering to the
Jews in captivity and the astrological knowledge (12 signs) probably
predates the 12 tribes..

2) The "gold" comment would be okay if all we knew was Old World history.
But natives in the New World, long dissociated from the Old, treated gold
with reverance for its untarnishability as well. And thus its spiritual
qualities.

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                                   -- Roy, Mystery Men



From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 22:07:31 2000
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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:08:28 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: Number of syllables in Cantonese
References: <BPEOIKLPOIDECCHIOEMCGEEGCAAA.Claus_Anders@t-online.de>
			<39D02EA1.6011D2B3@mail.msen.com>
			<39D09ABF.DF482B07@gte.net>
			<39D0B94D.55710F91@alphalink.com.au>
			<200009270209.e8R29xC02004@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
			<39D19E14.7273E51C@alphalink.com.au> <200010090043.e990hVB29746@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
> PS, just for the record: my pocket dictionary of Cantonese
> lists about 5300 characters with about 1800 distinct
> pronounciations (syllables).

	I'm still trying to make sense of the 8200 words in
the VMs.  Robert Firth's paradigm accounts for ~80% of
the tokens.  This 80% is about 280 words.  But that
leaves ~7900 words that the paradigm doesn't account
for.  

	Could it be that this is something like a shorthand
system?  There's an easy way (the Firth paradigm) to
write the most common words, and the rest, those that
don't fit the paradigm, represent the balance of the
1800 distinct syllables, or the balance of the 5300
characters?

	Also - in Hamptonese I saw words that were obviously
the same but the spelling differed.  Could we seeing
this in the VMs.

	I need to look at Stolfi's paradigms.  I read his
Voynichese word grammar, but I think that his paradigms
might well be more applicable here.  

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 10 00:11:58 2000
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct  9 18:51:50 2000
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Brian Eric Farnell wrote:

>  It seems to suggest that the gallows and tables are not
> letters but some sort of symbol for something else, they are
> their own class.

In the example which Jim Reeds pointed out in Cappelli, the "gallows-like"
symbols are strictly embellishments - not additional characters (as you can
see from the transcription of the document) - perhaps that is true in the VMS
as well. That could explain why so many paragraphs start with a gallows
character.

Bruce



From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 10 13:57:46 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:57:35 +0200
From: "Rafal T. Prinke" <rafalp@amu.edu.pl>
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I have now looked at two books on Zodiacal iconography by
Prof. Ewa Sniezynska-Stolot which were mentioned earlier. 
These books are:

1. Ikonografia znakow Zodiaku i gwiazdozbiorow w sredniowieczu,
   Krakow 1994. [Iconography of the signs of the Zodiac and
   constellations in the Middle Ages]

2. Ikonografia znakow Zodiaku i gwiazdozbiorow w rekopisach
   Albumasara, Krakow 1997. [Iconography of the signs of 
   the Zodiac and constellations in Albumasar's manuscripts]

There is also a third one but I have not seen it yet.

3. Ikonografia znakow zodiaku i gwiazdozbiorow w rekopisie 
   monachijskim Abrahama ibn Ezry, Krakow 1998.
   [Iconography of the signs of the Zodiac and constellations 
   in the Munich manuscript of Abraham ibn Ezra]

All of them are analyses and catalogues of the images used
in medieval astronomical/astrological illuminated manuscripts
to depict signs of the Zodiac, decans and constellations.
The first book is based on a survey of some 200 manuscripts
from the 13th-15th c. (including one from the Beinecke Library
- but not *the* one).

There are lots of illustrations but... nothing is really
similar to anything in the VMS. There are many unconventional
images for the signs of the Zodiac so that those in the VMS
look quite ordinary (almost "modern", I would say).

There are naked girls here and there - but again nothing
resembling those in the VMS.

I will now try to contact the author. Hopefully, she will
be able to identify an area or "school" where the VMS images
may have originated.

Best regards,

Rafal

From reeds Tue Oct 10 14:19:45 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
Message-Id: <1001010141945.ZM9737760@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:19:45 -0400
In-Reply-To: "Billy Hutton" <huttonb@home.com>
        "Research Materials" (Oct  8,  7:19)
References: <004301c03132$b71e0e60$0200a8c0@chnd1.az.home.com>
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On Oct 8,  7:19, Billy Hutton wrote:

... 
> What do you all think about a published reproduction of the VMS?  I don't
> believe such a thing exists, and if this is true, I am very much interested
> in making a reproduction a reality.
> 
> I thought I read somewhere that someone is attributed with "owning" the VMS.
> Is this true?

It would be wonderful if someone would publich a reproduction
of the VMS, and if you can help make that happen, a lot of
people would be grateful to you.  Negotiations are underway
concerning a project to make  a high quality digital color scan 
of the VMS.  I think there is agreement in principle with the
vendor,  with a price tag fairly close to what a generous donor
has promised to provide.  If the vendor comes through with a formal
offer, and if we need extra money, I will not hesitate to ask
for everyone's help to make up the difference.  I was warned
that everything in the museum & rare book room world --- which
is the vendor's normal venue --- moves slowly, so I don't know
when this would happen.

The result of this scan could be published in one form or another, 
and there we'd have it.  Ideally publication would take the form
of a web site of images, a CD disk set, and a coffee table book;
I'd be happy to see any 1 or 2 of the above.

Of course this would have to be done with the concurrence &
cooperation of the VMS's owner, the Beinecke library at Yale.
(Last I heard from them, they agree in principle, too, but again,
slow movement is the rule.)







-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 10 20:59:27 2000
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Message-ID: <39E3BDA4.98CDAB10@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:08:52 -0400
From: john stojko <oko@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: oko@worldnet.att.net
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To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Number in VMS
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------8F3F5D1AC1325AB681EC5D01"
Sender: jim@mail.rand.org
Status: OR

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------8F3F5D1AC1325AB681EC5D01
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In HISTORIA NUMERUM By Barclay V. Head published by Oxford
University Press in 1887 on page 65, fig 42 I found interesting numeral
sign on old coin  from 330 - 300 B.C.
The same number apears in VMS page 1 in 2nd and 3rd paragraph.
In attachment you will find the coin and the cipher designating number
in VMS.
                                                                




The reproduction of coin is not very clear but is the best way I could
do.

John Stojko
--------------8F3F5D1AC1325AB681EC5D01
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 11 09:54:00 2000
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Reply-To: "Billy Hutton" <huttonb@home.com>
From: "Billy Hutton" <huttonb@home.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Cc: "Dennis" <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
References: <39E3BDA4.98CDAB10@worldnet.att.net> <39E45A84.AA8A7423@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: Number in VMS
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:56:23 -0700
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Here are the two images from John's Word document.  I don't have any image
editing tools at home, so I had to do this with paint, in 5 minutes before
work.  :)

- Billy

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------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C032EB.C893B2C0--

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 11 08:17:39 2000
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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 07:18:12 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: VSG <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Number in VMS
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	John, I'd very much like to see this, but I've tried
several MS Word formats and can't get the graphics. 
Could you send a plain text message with a GIF or JPG
file attached?

Dennis

john stojko wrote:
> 
> In HISTORIA NUMERUM By Barclay V. Head published by Oxford
> University Press in 1887 on page 65, fig 42 I found interesting numeral
> sign on old coin  from 330 - 300 B.C.
> The same number apears in VMS page 1 in 2nd and 3rd paragraph.
> In attachment you will find the coin and the cipher designating number
> in VMS.
> 
> 
> The reproduction of coin is not very clear but is the best way I could
> do.
> 
> John Stojko
> 
>   -------------------------------------------------------
>                                            Name: In HISTORIA NUMERUM By Barclay V.doc
>    In HISTORIA NUMERUM By Barclay V.doc    Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword)
>                                        Encoding: base64

From reeds Wed Oct 11 12:36:33 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
Message-Id: <1001011123633.ZM11943008@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:36:33 -0400
In-Reply-To: "Billy Hutton" <huttonb@home.com>
        "Re: Number in VMS" (Oct 10, 18:56)
References: <39E3BDA4.98CDAB10@worldnet.att.net> 
	<39E45A84.AA8A7423@micro-net.com> 
	<001c01c03326$75141c80$0200a8c0@chnd1.az.home.com>
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Subject: Re: Number in VMS
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About the coin:  On the front, Alexander.  On the back,
a peacock.  Or that's what it looks like to me.

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 11 12:56:17 2000
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Jim Reeds wrote:
> 
> About the coin:  On the front, Alexander.  On the back,
> a peacock.  Or that's what it looks like to me.

	It looks like that to me too.  The sides of the
"number" symbol aren't symmetrical.  

	Rene did find a clear image of this symbol in some
Greek manuscript; I forget which one.

http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/astro1.gif

Dennis

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:34:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Morningstar <mornj@ils.unc.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Missing pages
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Jim Reeds, in "A Provisional Checklist of Voynich MS 'pages'" (located at
ftp://ftp.rand.org/pub/voynich/checklist), notes the following pages as
missing from the VMS:

ff 12, 59-64, 74, 91-92, 97-98

Also noted:  Kraus lists ff 59-64 as missing, Newbold does not.  

Has anyone looked at the old photostats to see if any of the currently
missing pages were reproduced?   

--Jason

----------
Jason Morningstar
School of Information and Library Science
UNC Chapel Hill



From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 11 20:11:50 2000
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        Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Subject: Re: Number in VMS
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		<39E45A84.AA8A7423@micro-net.com> 
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Jim Reeds wrote:
> 
> About the coin:  On the front, Alexander.  On the back,
> a peacock.  Or that's what it looks like to me.

According to the author of this book on front is
Head of Demeter.
On the back the Ear of Corn.
To me on back is Wheat ear and to right symbol for number.

This is silver coin.
Those who wants to check can get the book from library.

John Stojko

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct 12 04:40:19 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
To: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:38:17 +0100
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Subject: Sky & Telescope article
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Hi all, I received this today, and I thought that it was worth sharing.
Cheers,

Gabriel

------- Forwarded message follows -------
From:           	hhcuno@t-online.de (hhcuno)
To:             	G.Landini@bham.ac.uk
Subject:        	Voynich manuscript
Date sent:      	Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:05:57 +0200

Dear Mr. Landini,
a recent article in Sky&Telescope about the Voynich
manuscript waked my curiosity. I make it short:

Has there been any test of the isotopic composition of
the material of the document, its paper, pigments etc.?
Also a microscopic examination can probably give some
insights into the origin of the materials.
That could possibly shed light onto the date and place
of creation.

The modern method of accelerator mass spectroscopy
allows the determination of the isotopic composition
of miniscule amounts of material. When there is any
interest Professor Walter Kutschera of Vienna
University  (walter.kutschera@univie.ac.at) can
certainly help you further. There is also one
institution for accelerator MS in the States.

Dr. Hans-Hellmuth CunoH
Schrammlhof 2, 93164 Laaber
Tel. 09498-902024, Fax: -902025
e-mail:  hhcuno@t-online.de
Website: http://www.hhcuno.de

------- End of forwarded message -------

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:47:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: More star crib proposals
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Hi;
	Below is another attempt to name the stars that appear in the
'Pleiades' diagram.  It sounds reasonalbe...
Cheers,
Brad


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:32:10 -0400
From: George Gilbart-Smith <georgegs@clara.net>
To: schaefer@grb2.physics.yale.edu
Subject: November Issue p40

Dear Dr Schaefer
I read your article in the November Sky and Telescope with interest. The
only light I can shed on any of it concerns the segmented diagram at the
bottom of page 42. I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but the four
octants containing labelled stars would seem to be seasonal asterisms:
Aldebaran and the Pleiades (Winter), Arcturus and Mufrid (Spring), with
Mufrid being the star in the diagram nearer the Sun, Vega with epsilon and
zeta Lyrae (Summer), with Vega nearest the Sun and the Aquarius water jar
(Autumn), with Sadalachbia nearest the Sun. All the stars in these
asterisms are plotted with too much accuracy to be coincidental, e.g. the
"summer triangle" is not quite equilateral, and the autumn asterism is
remarkably accurate. There are 61 stars and asterisms in the figure
altogether, so the unnamed stars might be six-day markers between the
asterisms. Or the unnamed stars might just be bright stars which culminate
between the asterisms (I would not speculate which stars).
Using Guide 7 software, set to precession for 1200, I tried to see on what
days of the year the asterisms pointed towards the Sun, and things went a
bit haywire! The spring asterism could mark where summer turns to autumn
(about 10h RA) and the autumn asterism where winter turns to spring (about
21h RA). But the summer asterism is only properly orientated at the
autumnal equinox (and is in any case miles from the ecliptic) and the
ecliptic passes right between Aldebaran and the Pleiades (admittedly just
as spring turns to summer)!
So I'm not sure if I've been any help at all, but I've had fun (and found
yet another application for the invaluable Guide software).

Yours sincerely,
George Gilbart-Smith
georgegs@clara.net
70 Allington Drive
Tonbridge
Kent TN10 4HH
UK




From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct 12 18:41:57 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:42:02 -1000
From: Brian Eric Farnell <bfarnell@gte.net>
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"Bradley E. SCHAEFER" wrote:
> 
> Hi;
>         Below is another attempt to name the stars that appear in the
> 'Pleiades' diagram.  It sounds reasonalbe...
> Cheers,
> Brad
> So I'm not sure if I've been any help at all, but I've had fun (and found
> yet another application for the invaluable Guide software).
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> George Gilbart-Smith
> georgegs@clara.net

Way beyond my area of knowledge, but anyone using Unix or Linux
can get some great open source software astronomy software
called 'xephem'.  Sky & Telescope did a review and really liked
it, though they said it was a bit difficult to use.  I
downloaded my RPM for Mandrake from the Mandrake site and there
are other ready to load RPMs and Debs out there, though the
homepage makes it look like you have to compile it yourself.
Regards,
Brian

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 13 11:21:02 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:21:56 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	Welcome!  

olivier.dubont@hushmail.com wrote:
> 
> There is names inside the manuscript : name of body parts (heart ...), name
> of planets (sun,mars...), name of plants (angelica archangelica...) but
> they are substitued with a short word, like in Alchemic manuscripts, the
> name are crypted with symbols (symbol of sun, of quicksilver...)

	A short word for the sun, the heart, a plant name?  I
know that alchemy used symbols to represent chemicals,
but I hadn't heard of using short words.  Would you
elaborate?

> I think Vouynich manuscript is a spagyrik book. Spagyri is like Alchemy
> but with plants.

	I looked at a spagyric book but it was modern.  Would
spagyry have existed in the 1400's?   If so, do you
have references?

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 13 11:03:33 2000
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My theory about the Voynich Manuscript is that it's coded in homophonic
sentences, like the sound of egyptian hieroglyph.

There is names inside the manuscript : name of body parts (heart ...), name
of planets (sun,mars...), name of plants (angelica archangelica...) but
they are substitued with a short word, like in Alchemic manuscripts, the
name are crypted with symbols (symbol of sun, of quicksilver...)

I think Vouynich manuscript is a spagyrik book. Spagyri is like Alchemy
but with plants.
We should find the list of correspondance between plants, planets and body
parts.
For example plants like angelica archangelica, chelidonium majus or tifolia
correspond with
Sun and the body part Heart correspond with Sun too.

On the page with plants, we should search the name of the plant in the crypted
text but the name with
be represented by one short word.

In this manuscript there is too the name of months of the year, because
Sun plants are not processed
at the same months than the Mars plants, in the Spayrik system.

Months could be substitued in the crypted text with a short word too.


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From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 13 12:15:49 2000
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Reply-To: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
From: "John Grove" <4groves@sprint.ca>
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@rand.org>
References: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10010120945350.25496-100000@astro.as.utexas.edu> <39E63E3A.146B6006@gte.net>
Subject: Re: More star crib proposals
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:57:38 -0400
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The last star crib suggestions made me ponder the page once again... First,
my disclaimer: I'm not an astronomer and that may well be evident in what I
suggest.

I believe this page could work out as a marker for seasons, but I think the
number of stars in between each set of labels varies for a reason. I then
supposed that it was a measurement of so many degrees - Aldebaran with 11
degrees, Aquarius water jug with 14 degrees, the Three stars with 18
degrees, and lastly the Two stars with 16 degrees.

After lots of trial and error on my starmap program which I set to the
1500's, I managed to come up with the following 'rough' lines of thought
(that require someone more knowledgeable about astronomy to make accurate -
if possible):

First, the labelled stars represent a zodiac that is -2h30 from the Sunrise,
hereafter called RP. I took a location from around 55 degrees north - as it
worked best at getting the altitudes I was looking for.

On Dec 21st with Scorpio at RP, Star named Sabik is about 18 degrees
altitude. It is possible to make the triangle out of Sabik at the point,
Zeta Ophiuci on the upper side, and Antares on the lower side.
On Mar 21st with Aquarius at RP, (My program doesn't have names for these
stars but has them numbered) - the forward star Nr 554 is about 14 degrees,
with star nr 360 behind it in between stars 1114 and 444.
On June 21st with Taurus located at RP - Aldebaran is approximately 11
degrees in altitude.
On Sep 21st with Leo at RP, the two stars of one of Leo's front legs run
along the ecliptic with Regulus behind star 452. Star 452 is unfortunately
at 32 degrees (vice the 16 stars that I would have used to find the
altitude: although 16x2 fits)

    For what it's worth from a non-astronomer looking at star charts!

    John.



----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Eric Farnell <bfarnell@gte.net>
To: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: More star crib proposals


>
>
> "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" wrote:
> >
> > Hi;
> >         Below is another attempt to name the stars that appear in the
> > 'Pleiades' diagram.  It sounds reasonalbe...
> > Cheers,
> > Brad
> > So I'm not sure if I've been any help at all, but I've had fun (and
found
> > yet another application for the invaluable Guide software).
> >
> > Yours sincerely,
> > George Gilbart-Smith
> > georgegs@clara.net
>
> Way beyond my area of knowledge, but anyone using Unix or Linux
> can get some great open source software astronomy software
> called 'xephem'.  Sky & Telescope did a review and really liked
> it, though they said it was a bit difficult to use.  I
> downloaded my RPM for Mandrake from the Mandrake site and there
> are other ready to load RPMs and Debs out there, though the
> homepage makes it look like you have to compile it yourself.
> Regards,
> Brian
>

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 13 16:31:26 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:31:55 +0000
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
Organization: Banzai Institute
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There's an interesting article on modern technological approaches to
understanding where ink has been on a manuscript:

http://www.nando.net/healthscience/story/0,1080,500268525-500417673-502581883-0,00.html

After we've finished the obvious things like careful optical imaging,
there are lots more possibilities.
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Sterday, 22 Winterfilth S.R. 2000, 20:28
	12.19.7.11.6, 9 Cimi 9 Yax, First Lord of Night

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 13 16:58:22 2000
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Reply-To: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
From: "John Grove" <4groves@sprint.ca>
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Seasons
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:04:21 -0400
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While looking for the right place to get those numbers I wanted, I found
Copenhagen seemed to provide the best results with the sunrises located at
RA+2h30 after the Star/Zodiac indicating the seasons as per my last. As for
that 32 degrees in Leo vice 16, there is a smaller star at 16 degrees below
Leo at about the same RA.

    John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 14 18:09:25 2000
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Message-ID: <39E8DB5C.9FB0689A@voynich.nu>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:17:00 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Subject: Re: Zodiacal iconography
References: <1001008182926.ZM9123981@fry.research.att.com> <39E3588F.5C0B48AC@amu.edu.pl>
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Rafal wrote:

> I have now looked at two books on Zodiacal iconography by
> Prof. Ewa Sniezynska-Stolot which were mentioned earlier.
> These books are:
> 
> 1. [...] Iconography of the signs of the Zodiac and
>    constellations in the Middle Ages
> 
> 2. [...] Iconography of the signs of
>    the Zodiac and constellations in Albumasar's manuscripts]

and...

> 3. [...]Iconography of the signs of the Zodiac and constellations
>    in the Munich manuscript of Abraham ibn Ezra]

[...]

> The first book is based on a survey of some 200 manuscripts
> from the 13th-15th c. (including one from the Beinecke Library
> - but not *the* one).

>From any particular set of libraries? Saxl used the Vatican
library and a few others (definitely Vienna but I don't recall
which other ones).

> There are lots of illustrations but... nothing is really
> similar to anything in the VMS. There are many unconventional
> images for the signs of the Zodiac so that those in the VMS
> look quite ordinary (almost "modern", I would say).

Any crossbowmen?

> I will now try to contact the author. Hopefully, she will
> be able to identify an area or "school" where the VMS images
> may have originated.

Whatever she has to say will be of great interest.

Of the two symbols on f1r recently addressed by John Stojko,
the first looks exactly like the old-style Aries symbol
(see the picture at Dennis' site:
  http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/astro1.gif
The MS in question is in Turin.)

The other one _could_ refer to Virgo (rotated over 90 deg)
but this is anything but convincing. 
I don't think these two are in the S&T article (I still need
to get a copy) but her opinion on these (especially the second
one) would also be very interesting.

I am also more than a little intrigued by the Albumasar and
Ibn Ezra MSs. 
Is she discussing Arabic or European copies?

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct 15 03:09:31 2000
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From: "Roger Nelson" <rnelson@turbonet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Codex Mendoza
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 00:11:15 -0700
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I was watching the documentary "Out of the past: An introduction to =
archeology" last night. In the short segment on the Aztecs, they showed =
a brief snippet of the Codex Mendoza (1578?) which details the tribute =
paid to the Aztec king Moctezuma.

I was shocked: the style of the commentary text in this manuscript =
resembled the VMS text, and I recognized several of the distinctive VMS =
characters.

WSU library has a complete copy of the document. I checked out the =
manuscript today.=20

In the text (which is in 16th century Spanish) I see even more =
characters written in VSM style including:

(FSG)
4 O 8 G 2 E R T S H D A C 7

S and H !

And characters very similar to:

F and 6

The character mentioned just yesterday appearing on the coin (Re: Number =
in VSM) is used extensively in the document as a paragraph/list item =
marker.

One interesting feature of the document is complete absence of Arabic =
numerals, all numbers are either spelled out or are in roman numerals =
(in a style I have not seen before, anyone have a name for this style?). =
Was this common in documents of this era?

For example the number 400 has an uncanny resemblance to SG including =
the flourish above S which appears frequently in VMS.

"una" looks like the mirror of AM.

The words "los pueblos" "Ricas" "Rodelas" "Resumydos" "piecas", for =
example, could almost be lifted and put in the VMS text

Notably the P and R of these words are very VMSish.

The uppercase R is always capitalized when it occurs at the beginning of =
the word and looks like the VMS character 'H'. 'p' is similarly =
flourished as in the VMS 'P' or 'F'.

The letters 'd' (written is in the lowercase Greek delta) and 's' are =
also very much written in VMS style, thus the suffixes 'mas' 'des' 'sas' =
look like VMS suffixes.

When Aztec words are spelled out, wow!

The word "maxlatl" looks like MAEDAP
"Yztla" G2DA
"chian" 6M
"Tlaahuitlpan" DAOGMDIDIS

Here are some images [I will not keep these images on this machine long] =
If you don't know Spanish, I have added some transcriptions and =
translations to the images.

http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/maguey.jpg
Notice the roman number 400 and the 's' and 'p' in "espesa"

http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/400_cargos.jpg
Notice the word break and the detached cedilla in "cientas"

http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/shield.jpg
Notice the style of the capitalized 'R' that looks like VMS 'H'
and how the letters aRo in "una Rodela" have a ligature as in VMS 'DZ'.

Notice the 'p' in "plumas" and the word "Ricas"

http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/tortilla.jpg
Notice flourishes in the word "muchacho"

Here are some full pages (quite large).

http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/f20r.jpg
Notice the spellings of the Aztec villages along the left side.

http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/f43v.jpg
A page of text.
Notice how some words are connected and some words are broken
both when the word fits on the same line and at the end of the line.
Noticeably the word "y" (and) is often ligatured to the following word.
This may be similar in the VMS with the preponderance of words starting =
or ending with '2' as in "2A2" or "2AO2" as well as the word "2".

Is it a coincidence the Spanish word "y" looks like the VMS '2'??

I wonder what the text would look like if it had not been written in a =
cursive hand.

These images are from the book
The Codex Mendoza (vol III facsimile)
Frances F. Berdan and Patricia Rieff Anawalt
University of California 1992

The WSU library had several books with Codex Mendoza:
Coleccion de Menoza, Aztec Emperor Moctezuma's tribute roll,
Painting the Conquest (also Amerique de la Conquete),=20
Colonisation de l'imaginaire.=20

So finding books with these folios should not be difficult.

I also looked at several other manuscripts documenting the Aztecs from =
the same time period,  (Such as the Selden roll, the Codex =
Ixtlilxochitl, the Codex Florentine) none of the text was written in =
this style of hand writing.=20

I am curious what other's impressions might be of the Codex Mendoza

By the way, I also look a little bit into the Aztec language Nahuatl.
The alliterated syllables, as in the following words, seem to be quite =
common in Nahuatl vocabulary.

kuakuake-beetle=20
chichiltik-red=20
ahtehuihui - it trembles
anpipiltzitzinti - you [pl.] are babies
toconanaz - you will take it.=20
tzatzatzini - crier

or even words like

tekolotl-owl
tepetl-hill=20

(I think this is also the case in the Hawaiian language)
So there is precedence for the repeated ?syllables? we see in the VMS =
that would otherwise look odd (at least to me) for European languages.

     ______________  Roger Nelson rnelson@turbonet.com=20
____ |  Washington | Biological Systems Engineering Department
 \ | |    State    | http://www.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson=20
 | //   University |                     You may reply in:
 | '   Pullman, WA+| Work: (509)335-1100 English, French, Esperanto,
 \_       _________| Home: (509)332-8387 Swedish, Danish, Norwegian,=20
   `-----'99164-6120 FAX:  (509)335-2722 Italian or Spanish

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>I was watching the documentary "Out of the past: An =
introduction to=20
archeology" last night. In the short segment on the Aztecs, they showed =
a brief=20
snippet of the Codex Mendoza (1578?) which details the tribute paid to =
the Aztec=20
king Moctezuma.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I was shocked: the style of the commentary text in this manuscript=20
resembled the VMS text, and I recognized several of the distinctive VMS=20
characters.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>WSU library has a complete copy of the document. I checked out the=20
manuscript today. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In the text (which is in 16th century Spanish) I&nbsp;see even more =

characters written in VSM style including:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>(FSG)<BR>4 O 8 G 2 E R T S H D A C 7</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>S and H !</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And characters very similar to:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>F and 6</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The character mentioned just yesterday appearing on the coin (Re: =
Number in=20
VSM) is used extensively in the document as a paragraph/list=20
item&nbsp;marker.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>One interesting feature of the document is complete absence of =
Arabic=20
numerals, all numbers are either spelled out or are in roman numerals =
(in a=20
style I have not seen before, anyone have a name for this style?). Was =
this=20
common in documents of this era?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For example the number 400 has an uncanny resemblance to SG =
including the=20
flourish above S which appears frequently in VMS.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"una" looks like the mirror of AM.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The words "los pueblos" "Ricas" "Rodelas" "Resumydos" =
"piecas",&nbsp;for=20
example,&nbsp;could almost be lifted and put in the VMS text</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Notably the P and R of these words are very VMSish.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The uppercase R is always capitalized when it occurs at the =
beginning of=20
the word and&nbsp;looks like the VMS character 'H'. 'p' is similarly =
flourished=20
as in the VMS 'P' or 'F'.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The&nbsp;letters 'd' (written is in the lowercase Greek delta) and =
's' are=20
also very much written in VMS style, thus the suffixes 'mas' 'des' 'sas' =
look=20
like VMS suffixes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When Aztec words are spelled out, wow!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The word "maxlatl" looks like MAEDAP</DIV>
<DIV>"Yztla" G2DA</DIV>
<DIV>"chian" 6M</DIV>
<DIV>"Tlaahuitlpan" DAOGMDIDIS</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here are some images [I will not keep these images on this machine =
long] If=20
you don't know Spanish, I have added some transcriptions and =
translations to the=20
images.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/maguey.jpg">http://c100.b=
syse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/maguey.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV>Notice the roman number 400 and the 's' and 'p' in "espesa"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/400_cargos.jpg">http://c1=
00.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/400_cargos.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV>Notice the word break and the detached cedilla in "cientas"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/shield.jpg">http://c100.b=
syse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/shield.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV>Notice the style of the capitalized 'R' that looks like VMS =
'H'</DIV>
<DIV>and how the letters aRo in "una Rodela" have a ligature as in VMS=20
'DZ'.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Notice the 'p' in "plumas" and the word "Ricas"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/tortilla.jpg">http://c100=
.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/tortilla.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV>Notice flourishes in the word "muchacho"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here are some full pages (quite large).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/f20r.jpg">http://c100.bsy=
se.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/f20r.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV>Notice the spellings of the Aztec villages along the left =
side.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://c100.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/f43v.jpg">http://c100.bsy=
se.wsu.edu/~rnelson/temp/f43v.jpg</A><BR>A=20
page of text.</DIV>
<DIV>Notice how some words are connected and some words are =
broken<BR>both when=20
the word fits on the same line and at the end of the line.<BR>Noticeably =
the=20
word "y" (and) is often ligatured to the following word.<BR>This may be =
similar=20
in the VMS with the preponderance of words starting or ending with '2' =
as in=20
"2A2" or "2AO2" as well as the word "2".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Is it a coincidence the Spanish word "y" looks like the VMS =
'2'??</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I wonder what the text would look like if it had not been written =
in a=20
cursive hand.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>These images are from the book<BR>The Codex Mendoza (vol III=20
facsimile)<BR>Frances F. Berdan and Patricia Rieff Anawalt<BR>University =
of=20
California 1992</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The WSU library had several books with Codex Mendoza:<BR>Coleccion =
de=20
Menoza, Aztec Emperor Moctezuma's tribute roll,<BR>Painting the Conquest =
(also=20
Amerique de la Conquete), <BR>Colonisation de l'imaginaire. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>So finding books with these folios should not be difficult.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I also looked at several other manuscripts documenting the Aztecs =
from the=20
same time period,&nbsp; (Such as the Selden roll, the Codex =
Ixtlilxochitl, the=20
Codex Florentine) none of the text was written in this style of hand =
writing.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I am curious what other's impressions might be of the Codex =
Mendoza</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>By the way, I also look a little bit into the Aztec language=20
Nahuatl.<BR>The alliterated syllables, as in the following words, seem =
to be=20
quite common in Nahuatl vocabulary.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>kuakuake-beetle <BR>chichiltik-red <BR>ahtehuihui - it=20
trembles<BR>anpipiltzitzinti - you [pl.] are babies<BR>toconanaz - you =
will take=20
it. <BR>tzatzatzini - crier</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>or even words like</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>tekolotl-owl<BR>tepetl-hill </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>(I think this is also the case in the Hawaiian language)</DIV>
<DIV>So there is precedence for the repeated ?syllables? we see in the =
VMS that=20
would otherwise look odd (at least to me) for European =
languages.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ______________&nbsp; Roger Nelson <A=20
href=3D"mailto:rnelson@turbonet.com">rnelson@turbonet.com</A> <BR>____ =
|&nbsp;=20
Washington | Biological Systems Engineering Department<BR>&nbsp;\ |=20
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; State&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnelson">http://www.bsyse.wsu.edu/~rnel=
son</A>=20
<BR>&nbsp;| //&nbsp;&nbsp; University=20
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
You may reply in:<BR>&nbsp;| '&nbsp;&nbsp; Pullman, WA+| Work: =
(509)335-1100=20
English, French, =
Esperanto,<BR>&nbsp;\_&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
_________| Home: (509)332-8387 Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
`-----'99164-6120 FAX:&nbsp; (509)335-2722 Italian or=20
Spanish</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct 15 10:29:37 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 15:29:13 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Codex Mendoza
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>I was shocked: the style of the commentary text in this manuscript
resembled the VMS text, and I recognized several of the distinctive VMS
characters.


This looks like a pretty standard 16th or 17th century hand to me.
I have seen hundreds of manuscripts with this kind of handwriting.
It is not difficult to read.  I am sorry but I don't see the connection 
to the Voynich.

Adam McLean



----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:  http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html
Alchemy Web bookstore:  http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com
Paintings: http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com/paintings

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct 16 04:52:49 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 15 Oct 2000, at 15:29, Adam McLean wrote:
> This looks like a pretty standard 16th or 17th century hand to me. I
> have seen hundreds of manuscripts with this kind of handwriting. It is
> not difficult to read.  I am sorry but I don't see the connection to
> the Voynich.

It is quite easy to understand the Spanish, despite the look of some 
letters.
There are a few interesting things like the letter "r" being almost 
identical as EVA "h".
Also I do not understand  the way the numbers are written, "400" 
seems like "hhq" in EVA. Is this (backwards?) a common notation?

Cheers,

Gabriel
 

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct 16 12:20:40 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:19:57 +0000
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Antoine Casanova's research
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I have just reread Antoine Casanova's posting on 6th March 2000, based 
on his thesis, which reveals a structure within the individual 'tokens'  in
the Voynich language. These he shows as a series of rules, and from 
these he concludes that the language of the Voynich is not a natural 
language but has the characteristic signature of an artificial language.

I have not seen on the Voynich list a critical revue of Antoine's work,
and I wonder how his thesis is received by the main researchers 
on this list.

Perhaps I have missed some key postings, or have people on this
list discounted the relevance of his findings.

Adam McLean

----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:  http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html
Alchemy Web bookstore:  http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com
Paintings: http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com/paintings

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct 16 18:19:57 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:20:22 +0000
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
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I'm going on vacation for two weeks, so any administrative messages for
the Voynich Ms. mailing list will be unanswered until nearly November.

Please have it deciphered by the time I return -- thank you!
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Trewesday, 25 Winterfilth S.R. 2000, 22:18
	12.19.7.11.9, 12 Muluc 12 Yax, Fourth Lord of Night

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 01:22:07 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:21:56 -0700
From: "Robert G. Comegys" <robc@csufresno.edu>
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To: Roger Nelson <rnelson@turbonet.com>, "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Codex Mendoza
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Hi,

I'm sure you are on the right track. 

Most of what I have been able to examine looks right to me. the (FSG) 4 O 8 G
2 R T A C and 7 seem abundantly clear. I have not yet seen the rest.  

I'd like to know more about that roman 400. Doesn't look like ID or CCCC to
me. Must be ccq = cientos quatro (?) or some such.

I could not really see the penstrokes and details of the page with the jar of
honey. Did you happen to notate where in Volume 3 of Berdan and Anawalt (1992)
you found the illustrations you posted and also the words "los pueblos, Ricas,
Rodelas, resumydos, and piecas"; the greek delta, the suffixes 'mas' 'des' and
'sas'; and 'maxlatl', 'yztla', 'chian', and 'Tlaahuitlpan'?


Jacques Guy tested Aztec a few years ago and decided the VMs could not be
Aztec. He wrote an article for the magazine Cryptologia on his findings. 

I am certain that there are many Aztec words in the VMs. I am also certain
that the VMs is early colonial Mexican, and of Aztec heritage. If you will
give me an idea of how to check your work I will share with you and the list
the evidence for the claims I just made so that you may all check my work.

Best regards,

John Comegys robc@csufresno.edu

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 01:43:59 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:44:01 -0700
To: voynich@rand.org
From: luann@tick.dataunion.gr (by way of jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter))
Subject: Botanicals
Sender: jim@mail.rand.org
Status: OR

Is this part of the list? On the other hand I think I have just been gotten
by a spam. OTOH it really does look like something we might see here. Did
someone translate the VMS and is using it as add copy?


-jP
>
To: <carolsue@server080.userfull.be>
From: luann@tick.dataunion.gr
Subject: Sexual Enhancement
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:10:13 -0700
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 05:17:44 2000
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From: "Roger Nelson" <rnelson@turbonet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Codex Mendoza
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:48:15 -0700
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>This looks like a pretty standard 16th or 17th century hand to me.
>I have seen hundreds of manuscripts with this kind of handwriting.
>It is not difficult to read.  I am sorry but I don't see the connection =

>to the Voynich.

The capital 'R' looks like VMS 'H', was there a specific period or =
region where R was written in this style? Also 's' like '8'.



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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;This looks like a pretty standard 16th or 17th century hand to=20
me.<BR>&gt;I have seen hundreds of manuscripts with this kind of=20
handwriting.<BR>&gt;It is not difficult to read.&nbsp; I am sorry but I =
don't=20
see the connection <BR>&gt;to the Voynich.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>The capital 'R' looks like VMS =
'H', was=20
there a specific period or region where R was written in this style? =
Also=20
</FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>'s' like '8'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 05:24:57 2000
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From: "Roger Nelson" <rnelson@turbonet.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Codex Mendoza
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 02:26:55 -0700
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> I could not really see the penstrokes and details of the page with the =
jar of honey.=20
> Did you happen to notate where in Volume 3 of Berdan and Anawalt =
(1992)
> you found the illustrations you posted and also the words "los =
pueblos, Ricas,
> Rodelas, resumydos, and piecas"; the greek delta, the suffixes 'mas' =
'des' and
> 'sas'; and 'maxlatl', 'yztla', 'chian', and 'Tlaahuitlpan'?

These words I chose are repeated frequently on most pages of the =
document
(I.e. folio 21R).
maxlatl and yztla on folio 24r.
Tlaahuitlpan on folio 27r.
(Notice how the Tl ligature looks exactly like VMS D)

The honey pots are on Folios 27r and 29r.
The number 400 appears on almost every page of inventory.
The number 20 (XX) is also frequent. Numbers 10 and less are spelled =
out.
The number 14 appears on folio 16 (written XIIII (not XIV ?) with a =
flourish over the IIII (may be it is xiiii with the tittles combined as =
one)
The number 13 on the same page does not have a flourish over III.
There are few other occurances of Roman numerals.

Page numbers are written in Arabic numerals and may have been added =
latter
(since they are have a slightly different tint especially in the low =
numbered pages), otherwise arabic numerals do not appear in the document =
text.




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New"=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2></FONT><BR>&gt; I could not really see the penstrokes and =
details of the=20
page with the jar of honey. </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; Did you happen to notate where in Volume 3 of Berdan and =
Anawalt=20
(1992)<BR>&gt; you found the illustrations you posted and also the words =
"los=20
pueblos, Ricas,<BR>&gt; Rodelas, resumydos, and piecas"; the greek =
delta, the=20
suffixes 'mas' 'des' and<BR>&gt; 'sas'; and 'maxlatl', 'yztla', 'chian', =
and=20
'Tlaahuitlpan'?</FONT><BR><BR>These words&nbsp;I chose are repeated =
frequently=20
on most pages of the document</DIV>
<DIV>(I.e. folio 21R).</DIV>
<DIV>maxlatl and yztla on folio 24r.</DIV>
<DIV>Tlaahuitlpan on folio 27r.</DIV>
<DIV>(Notice how the Tl&nbsp;ligature looks exactly like VMS D)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>The honey pots are on Folios 27r and 29r.</DIV>The number 400 =
appears on=20
almost every page of inventory.</DIV>
<DIV>The number 20 (XX) is also frequent. Numbers 10 and less =
are&nbsp;spelled=20
out.</DIV>
<DIV>The number 14 appears on folio 16 (written XIIII (not XIV ?) with a =

flourish over the IIII&nbsp;(may be it is xiiii with the tittles =
combined as=20
one)</DIV>
<DIV>The number 13 on the same page does not have a flourish over =
III.</DIV>
<DIV>There are few other occurances of Roman numerals.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Page numbers are written in Arabic numerals and may have been added =

latter</DIV>
<DIV>(since they are have a slightly different tint especially in =
the&nbsp;low=20
numbered&nbsp;pages), otherwise arabic numerals do not appear in the =
document=20
text.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 11:36:01 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:35:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Are the cosmological diagrams Copernican??
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Hi;
	Here is another non-trivial response to the Sky & Telescope
article.  
Cheers,
Brad

>X-Sender: jdonohue@andromeda.skypub.com
>From: MartinUrmson@aol.com (by way of "Jill D. Considine"
<jconsidine@skypub.com>)
>Subject: Voynich manuscript
>
>Forgive me if these points sound gauche, but I now little of astronomy; my 
>interest is history of science.  I am only a student, so have more questions 
>than answers.
>It strikes me that your illustrations on pages 41/42 imply a heliocentric 
>view of the solar system, while many assumptions of provenance result in a 
>date preceding Copernicus. From what I know of Copernicus, he is unlikely to 
>have been the author. So if we can assume that the Voynich document is 
>European in origin, there are only limited areas in which to search for the 
>author of a heliocentric theory pre Copernicus (eg Pierre Ramee, Nicholas of 
>Cusa and their disciples - yet I'm sure specialists will know of more).
>The sun-centred cosmology could place the Voynich manuscript after the 
>neo-Platonic revival (say circa 1500), which  was probably an influence on 
>Copernicus, who studied in Italy where it was centred at this time. If the 
>document was made after 1500, it would be useful to question why code was 
>used. The Catholic church has a history of repression of anti-Scriptural 
>interpretations of the Cosmos, but this was only really brought into force 
>against loud-mouthed troublemakers such as Giordano Bruno, who was executed 
>in 1500 or so. While Copernicus was certainly aware of the religious 
>controversy his work might cause, he did go ahead and publish - without any 
>secret language. Indeed De Revolutionibus was dedicated to the pope. 
>    So why the secret language? Anybody with useful connections would have
no 
>reason to use it. So is this document pre-Copernican, and did these ideas 
>have the currency to influence Copernicus? (It is after all difficult to 
>identify one major influence to his work). Or is it post-Copernican, and a 
>later document, made in the second half of the 16th century and influenced
by 
>mystical neo-Platonism? By this time the Church had become sensitive to 
>challenges to Scripture because of the bigger challenges presented by the 
>Protestant reformers. A good time to use code.
>     Sorry, I have no answers: just a suggestion that historians should be 
>able to make a few educated guesses.  

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 11:10:40 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:10:26 +0000
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From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Codex Mendoza
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>The capital 'R' looks like VMS 'H', was there a specific period or region 
>where R was written in this style? Also 's' like '8'.

These are common in 16th and 17th century manuscripts, 
especially in Latin and later in English handwriting. It is very
difficult to date a manuscript of this period purely from the 
handwriting except in a few cases, as there were various 
traditions of handwriting passed down which continued for 
a number of generations and these overlapped. 

In Mary D'Imperio's book 'The Voynich manuscript - an elegant 
enigma', she gives a listing in Figure 17 comparing Voynich 
characters with common Latin abbreviations. 

I cannot see that the existence of a few similar characters in 
a particular manuscript of the 16th or 17th century can throw
much light on the Voynich.
I suspect that people with such enthusiasm just have not looked
at many manuscripts and may not be aware of just how
common these styles of orthography, embellishments or
special contractions are. If anyone visiting a library with good
holdings of  16th or 17th century manuscripts would get
out a dozen or so at random they would find one
or more with similar handwritten characters.  Though a few 
of the Voynich characters are very familiar there are some
characters which do not seem to appear elsewhere.
No one has ever found another example of the whole Voynich 
character set.

All that this shows us is that the Voynich manuscript drew
upon European orthography and that it most likely should be
placed in that context.

It would be nice if one could locate a manuscript which so 
easily  threw light on the Voynich characters, however, people 
have been working on this enigma for many decades and if 
there was a parallel manuscript surely it would have been 
found by now. Such will certainly not be in a well known collection, 
exhibited and published in facsimile like the Codex Mendosa, 
but hidden in a little visited obscure library or private collection.
I suppose some fragment could be found used as palimpsest, 
or recycled as endpapers of a book or manuscript, only revealed 
when conservation  work is carried out. But here we are grasping 
at straws and hoping against hope for enlightenment from 
outside the folios of the Voynich itself. 

Adam McLean
----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:  http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html
Alchemy Web bookstore:  http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com
Paintings: http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com/paintings

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 15:07:18 2000
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From: "Anonimus Bosche" <anonimus_bosche@hotmail.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: AZOTH
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:06:25 GMT
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Vole virum vivere viriliter,
Diligam, si diligar equaliter.
Sic amandum censeo, non aliter.
Hac in parte fortior quam Jupiter
Nescio precari
Commercio vulgari;
Amaturus forsitan
Volo prius amari.

vl(o) vr(um) vv(ere) vrl(iter)
dlg(am) s dlg(ar) eql(iter)
sc amnd(um) cns(eo) nn al(iter)
hc n prt(e) frt(ior) qm jpt(er)
nsc(io) prc(ari)
cmrc(io) vlg(ari)
am(turus) frst(an)
vl(o) pr(ius) am(ari)

VL1 VR2 VV3 VRL4
DLG2 S DLG3 EQL4
SC AMND2 CNS1 NN AL4
HC N PRT1 FRT5 QM JP4
NSC1 PRC6
CMRC1 VLG6
AM7 FRST8
VL1 PR9 AM6

1  a
2  an
3  ain
4  aiin
5  ar
6  air
7  aiir
8  am
9  aim

vla vran vvain vrlaiin
dlgan s dlgain eqlaiin
sc amndan cnsa nn alaiin
hc n prta frtar qm jpaiin
nsca prcair
cmrca vlgair
amaiir frstam
vla praim amair

(b441153xn)






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From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 19:03:23 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Are the cosmological diagrams Copernican??
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In Brad's forwarded message, Martin Urmson (I think)
wrote:

> It strikes me that your illustrations on pages 41/42
imply a  heliocentric
> view of the solar system, ...

This is the crux of the message. Do we agree with
this? (I do not know
which illustration(s) is/are meant).

> while many assumptions of provenance result  in a
> date preceding Copernicus. From what I know of
Copernicus, he is
> unlikely to have been the author.

Agreed.

>  loud-mouthed troublemakers such as Giordano Bruno,
who was
> executed in 1500 or so.

That was 1600 but I don't know if that makes any
difference in this context.

Anyway, even if the illustration referred to has a Sun
in the centre, I am
not at all sure that that should imply belief in a
sun-centred solar system.
In fact, quite a few other illustrations in the VMs
have the Sun and Moon
in similar 'positions', i.e. at top and bottom of
pages. This would be
evidence of an Earth-centred system, which does not
help us much because
the Sun-centred system was not universally accepted
until much later.

Cheers, Rene




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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: Antoine Casanova's research
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    > [Adam McLean:] I have just reread Antoine Casanova's posting on
    > 6th March 2000, based on his thesis ... I have not seen on the
    > Voynich list a critical revue of Antoine's work, and I wonder
    > how his thesis is received by the main researchers on this list.
    
Thanks for reminding me of this posting, and prompting me to 
re-read it more carefully.

    > ... which reveals a structure within the individual 'tokens' in
    > the Voynich language.
    
I will try to describe my understanding of Antoine's method, and
discuss his results in relation to the crust-core-mantle paradigm.

I have only managed to read a couple of chapters of his thesis; I was
unable to fetch and/or unpack the whole work for some reason ---
probably Windows/Unix incompatibilities. My comments below are based
on his posting only; may Antoine forgive me if if I got it all wrong.

Substitution patterns

  Antoine's method, if I got it correctly, is to compare all words of
  the same length n, separately for each n, looking for pairs of words
  that differ in only one letter position.
  
  The results of these comparisons are summarized by a
  `substitution pattern' P_n, which is a permutation (p_1,.. p_n) of the
  digits from 1 to n. For example, Antoine found that 
  P_4 = ( 1 2 4 3 ) and P_6 = ( 1 4 2 3 6 7 5 ).

  To determine the pattern P_n, Antoine examines each letter position
  i in turn, from 1 to n, and counts the words w of length n for which
  there exists another word that differs from w only in that letter.
  [I am not entirely sure about this point; he may count instead the
  *pairs* of words that differ only at that letter position.] Let's denote these
  counts by s_1,.. s_n. 
  
  For instance, from Friedman's transcription, Antoine got the following s_i:

    n = 3:  194 120 158
    n = 4:  397 308 195 253
    n = 5:  459 263 315 208 276
    n = 6:  238 143 171 164 121 170
    n = 7:  81  40  58  42  38  43  43
    n = 8:  8   2   9   5   8   9   5  7

  I.e., among all words of length 4, there are 397 words that remain
  valid by an appropriate replacement of the first letter; 308 words that 
  can be modified in the second letter; and so on. 

  The permutation digit p_i is then simply the rank of the
  corresponding count s_i among the list s_1,.. s_n. Thus 
  P_6 = ( 1 4 2 3 6 7 5 ) means that, among all words of length 6, the
  first letter is the `easiest' to replace, the second letter is the
  4th easiest, and so on. Here are the patterns he got:

    n = 3:  ( 1 3 2 )
    n = 4:  ( 1 2 4 3 )
    n = 5:  ( 1 4 2 5 3 )
    n = 6:  ( 1 4 2 5 6 3 )
    n = 7:  ( 1 4 2 3 6 7 5 )
    n = 8:  ( 6 8 1 2 3 4 7 5 )

The rules

  Antoine then looked for a single formula that would account for all
  these patterns. He first noted that, for n between 3 and 7,

    Rule 1:  p_1 is always 1.  

    Rule 2:  p_{n-1} is always n.

  In other words, the first letter is the easiest one to replace (the
  "most substituted" as Antoine calls it), and the next-to-last letter
  is the hardest one to replace. (The case n = 8 is an exception to
  both rules; but there are to few words of 8 letters, so the ranking
  is very uncertain anyway.)
  
  Antoine then describes a procedure that will generate P_{n} from
  P_{n+1}. I won't copy the procedure here, because it is somewhat
  complicated, and, in my opinion, not very significant. (More on that
  below.)

Justification

  One justification [mine, not his] for this analysis is that it is
  expected to reveal the "points of inflection" of inflected languages
  For instance, in a large sample of Italian, one will find many pairs
  of words that differ in the last letter only:

    rosso/rossa/rosse/rossi 
    ritorno/ritorni/ritorna/ritorn

  etc. Thus the pattern P_n for Italian will probably end in 1, meaning that 
  the last position is the single letter that can be replaced more easily
  within the language.  

  For Spanish and Portuguese, which usually make the plural by adding
  "s", the next-to-last position is easily substituted too:

    blancas/blancos
    rojas/rojos

  etc.. Additionally, the numerous verb inflections will provide
  many pairs differing in the 3rd and 4th letter from the end.
  
  I don't dare to guess the relative ranking of those positions; but I
  expect that, in any Romance language, the last three letters will be
  the most substituted, i.e. will get the rankings 1..3.
  
  If the same analysis were applied to English, I would still expect
  the last few positions to be the most easily substituted, because of
  pairs like
  
    painter/painted
    married/marries
    
  However, the difference between s_n and the average s_i should be
  much less for English than for Romance languages. I won't be
  surprised if the positions with ranks 2 and 3 are not at the end but
  somewhere else along the word.
  
  Thus, Antoine's analysis should distinguish quite easily the Indo-European
  languages from other language families with different places and methods of
  inflection. It may also be able to distinguish Romance from Germanic, and
  perhaps even Italian from Spanish. And it will certainly distinguish
  IE languages from random gibberish (unless the author has been
  careful to generate end-inflected gibberish, of course).

My comments

  In my view, the most significant feature of Antoine's substitution
  patterns is that the first letter of a Voynichese word seem to have
  more "inflectional freedom", while the final letters are relatively
  invariant. These patterns are precisely oposite to what we would
  expect to see in Indo-European languages (at least Romance and
  Germanic), where grammatical inflection usually modifies letters
  near the end of the word.
  
  Presumably this is what Antoine has in mind whe he says that
  Voynichese words are "built from synthetic rules which exclude ...
  natural language". Anyway, I think that this conclusion is
  unwarranted. After all, there are non-IE natural languages, which I
  do not dare to mention by name 8-), that do seem to have
  `substitution patterns' similar to those of Voynichese.
  
  Thus I don't accept Antoine conclusion that Voynichese must be an
  artificial language, or at best a code based on "progressive
  modification [similar to] the discs of Alberti".  It 
  cannot be just some IE language with a funny alphabet, sure;
  but we already knew that.  
  
  I find it interesting also that his analysis yield a very anomalous
  pattern for n = 8, namely P_8 = ( 6 8 1 2 3 4 7 5 ). While that
  pattern may be just a noise artifact, it may also be telling us that
  the rare 8-letter words are mostly the result of joining a 2-letter
  word to a 6-letter one.
  
  I am not sure what to make of Antoine's rules for generating P_n
  from P_{n+1}. For one thing, they seem to be a bit too complicated
  given the limited amount of data that they have to explain.
  Moreover, the counts s_2,.. s_{n-2} seem to be fairly similar, and
  the differences seem to be mostly statistical noise; therefore,
  their relative ranks do not seem to be very significant. Indeed,
  applying Antoine's method to Currier's transcription we get 
  P_6 = ( 1 4 2 6 5 3 ), whereas from Friedman's we get 
  P_6 = ( 1 5 2 4 6 3 ). Moreover, the latter would change to
  P_6 = ( 1 5 3 4 6 2 ) if we omitted just two words from the
  input text.
  
  But the main limitation I see in Antoine's method is that he considers
  the absolute position of each letter in the word to be a significant
  parameter for statistical analysis. I.e., he assumes implicitly that
  an n-letter word contains exactly n "inflectional", slots, each each
  of them containing exactly one letter. This view seems too
  simplistic when one considers the patterns of inflection of natural
  languages, where each morphological "slot" can usually be filled by
  strings of different lengths, including zero. To uncover the
  inflection rules of English, for example, one would have to compare
  words of different lengths, because the key substitution patterns
  are
  
    dog / dogs / dog's / dogs' 
    dance / dances / danced / dancing / dancer / dancers / ...
    strong / stronger /strongest / strongly
    
  and so on.  
  
  Another problem of Antoine's method is that the most important
  structural features of words in natural languages are usually based
  on *relative* letter positions, and may not be visible at all in an
  analysis based on absolute positions. For example, in Spanish there
  is a particularly strong alternation of vowels and consonants, so
  that if words were aligned by syllables one would surely find that
  the "even" letter slots have very different substitution properties
  than the "odd" slots. But since Spanish words may begin with either
  vowel or consonant, and may contain occasional VV and CC clusters,
  the 3rd and 4th letters in a 6-letter word should be about as likely
  to be VC as CV; and, therefore, will probably have very similar
  substitution statistics.
  
  Indeed, aligning words letter-by-letter is a bit like classifying
  fractional numeric data like 3.15 and -0027 into classes by the
  number of characters, and then analyzing the statistics of the ith
  character within each class, without regards for leading zeros,
  omitted signs, or the position of the decimal point. While some
  statistical features of the data may still have some visible
  manifestation after such mangling, we cannot expect to get reliable
  and understandable results unless we learn to align the data by the
  decimal point before doing the analysis.
  
  These problems are relevant for Vonichese too, only even more so.
  First, we already know tha there are many potentially important
  "inflections" that involve a change in length, like
  <okeedy>/<qokeedy>; and yet these "inflections" will not register in
  Antoine's analysis. More importantly, if we factor VMS words as
  specified by the crust-mantle-core (CMK) paradigm, we find that each
  CMK component can vary in length from 0 to 3 letters, more or less
  independently. Moreover, the Friedman and Currier alphabets
  sometimes use two or more letters to denote combinations, like EVA
  <ee> or <ke>, that are probably single letters in the `true' VMS
  alphabet. Thus, when Antoine sorts the Voynichese words by length,
  aligns them letter-by-letter, and analyzes the properties of each
  letter slot, he is analyzing a mixture of core, mantle, and crust
  slots -- which are statistically as different as night and day.
  
  Thus it is not surprsing that Antoine's counts s_i, for positions i
  near the middle of the word, are all pretty much the same (with
  differences comparable to the statistical noise). Because of the
  varying-length components, the 4th letter in a 6-letter word should
  be pretty much like a letter picked at a random among letters 2..5.
  Even for slots 1 and n, where we do see significant differences in
  the s_i, the counts will get "blurred" because the initial CMK
  components can be empty.

Possible improvements

  One possible way of improving Antoine's statistics is to replace his
  fixed-length letter slots, defined by absolute letter position, by
  the seven slots defined by the CMK model (initial <q>, crust prefix,
  mantle prefix, core, mantle suffix, crust suffix, and final group).
  
  The result of this analysis would be a table saying, for example,
  that there are NNN word pairs that differ only in the initial CMK
  component (i.e by the addition/omission of an initial <q>), and MMM
  pairs that differ only in the core component (which has 13 possible
  values, { k t p f ke te pe fe cth ckh cph cfh ckhe cthe cphe cfhe }
  or empty). 
  
  I have tried to do some of this analysis myself, but I am still
  troubled by some ambiguities of the model (what to do with the
  letters <aoy>, whether final <r> is a final group like <n> or part
  of the crust, etc.)
  
  Another variant of Antoine's analysis that may be worth trying, and
  which does not depend on a prior word model, is to use the `string
  edit distance' instead of Hamming's. In other words, one should look
  for pairs of words that differ by *insertion or deletion* of a
  single letter, as well as replacement. 
  
  However, this fix addresses only the the problem of length-changing
  inflections like those of English. To address the misalignment
  problem, we could label the slots with the letters that occur next
  to them, rather than with their absolute positions in the word. We
  would then get a table saying e.g. that there are 698 words pairs
  that differ by editing (inserting, deleting, or replacing) a single letter
  between a <k> and a <d>, and 345 that differ by a letter edit
  between <.> (word space) and <k>.
  
  Actually, we can use this criterion to define a `Voynichese word
  graph:' let the vertices be the words, and let the edges be the 
  word pairs that differ by a single letter-edit operation. It would be
  very intersting to see a picture of this graph, or at least a
  tabulation of its connected components, and compare the results with
  the analogous data for English, Latin, Chinese (oops, pardon my
  French!), etc.
  
I hope it helps. Again, my apologies to Antoine if I misrepresented his
work.  

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 21:59:41 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:00:53 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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References: <2.2.32.20001016171957.019cd444@pop.dial.pipex.com> <200010180007.e9I07gw05941@coruja.dcc.unicamp.br>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>   In my view, the most significant feature of Antoine's substitution
>   patterns is that the first letter of a Voynichese word seem to have
>   more "inflectional freedom", while the final letters are relatively
>   invariant. These patterns are precisely oposite to what we would
>   expect to see in Indo-European languages (at least Romance and
>   Germanic), where grammatical inflection usually modifies letters
>   near the end of the word.

	But the Bantu languages put inflectional  morphemes at
the beginning.  Hmmm.  When concocting an African
theory of the VMs, I considered using Ibn Battuta as
the one bringing the VMs back to the Mediterranean
world.  However, Swahili, if written at all, was
written in Arabic characters, which does not agree with
the clear Romance basis of Voynichese characters.  I
don't think so...

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 17 22:10:22 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:11:39 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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"by way of jporter@ricochet.net (Julie Porter)" wrote:
> 
> Is this part of the list? On the other hand I think I have just been gotten
> by a spam. OTOH it really does look like something we might see here. 

> Did
> someone translate the VMS and is using it as add copy?

	If someone did, we'd sure like to see them.  Spam,
what am!  

> From: luann@tick.dataunion.gr

	What an appropriate address!  But in Greece?

> Subject: Sexual Enhancement
> Ingredients:
> 
> Kathmandu Temple Kiff is both a euphoriant and an
> uplifting, calmative relaxant that offers scintillating
> physical and cerebral ambiance enhancement. Kathmandu
> Temple Kiff is a proprietary, prescribed amalgamation
> which includes the following synergistically, synesthesia
> conglomerated, uncommon herbs, resins, essences, flower-tops
> and oils in extreme ratio extractment ranging from
> 8.5 to 1.0 to 60 to 1, viripotent concentrations: Drachasha,
> Chavana Prash, Trikatu, Black Seed Herb, Capillaris Herba,
> Angelica Root, Wild Dagga, Haritaki, Shatavari, Labdunum,
> Neroli, Unicorn Root, Papaver Rhoes, Dendrobian, Calea
> Zacalechichi, Rue, Amla, Salvia Divinorum, Crocus Sativa,
> Lotus and Gokshura.

	Wow!  This way outdoes my "Etruscan Origins" theory,
where the only herb involved was the now-extinct
antique contraceptive herb silphium.  If they did look
at the VMs, at least they gave us a lot of cribs.

	Here again, we might get them to fund us.  We could
invent names for the VMs herbs and say that the VMs
describes an even more powerful herbal combination.  It
would sell superbly - if we solve it.  

Snidely,
Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 18 06:46:15 2000
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 18 11:21:41 2000
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Reply-To: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
From: "John Grove" <4groves@sprint.ca>
To: "Voynich List" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Aldebaran
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:25:24 -0400
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f68r3 undoubtedly (IMHO) does mark the changing of the seasons. Due to the
fact that the alignment appears to point directly at sunrise on the
equinox/solstice dates for Leo/Taurus/Aquarius/Scorpio. I think you'll find
that at about RA2h30 before sunrise there is indeed an aligned star in each
of these constellations. The actual altitude/declination I can't seem to get
to match constantly to the number of stars represented in between each
sector as I had hoped. The only sore spot in my opinion now is -- Aldebaran.

The rest of the 'aligned' stars are in the right place in reference to one
another as well as the sunrise. Aldebaran, however is behind the Pleiades in
the picture instead of between the Pleiades and the sunrise where it should
be.

Once again, I see the forward leg of Leo that is 'running' points back
toward the sunrise; Antares actually seems to line up nicely if you don't
worry about that '18 stars rule I tried to apply earlier; and the water jug
of Aquarius' star that corresponds to the one label that is to the left of
the star on f68r3; and Aldebaran of course -- all appear almost exactly at
RA2h30 before sunrise on the appropriate dates of equinox/solstice.

    I'm sure the number of stars in between sectors offers some sort of
measurement, but can't quite get one to follow all the way through...

    John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 18 13:45:38 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:45:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: John Grove <John@morewood.net>
Cc: Voynich List <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Aldebaran
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Hi;
	Could you please give me another explanation of your proposed
system.  For example, I do not understand how the four asterisms can all
be at the same right ascension.  And I do not understand how alignments
are indicated nor how they point at anything and where is sunrise in the
VMS.  Perhaps I missed this from an earlier email, but a restating should
not harm much.
	One caution is that the accuracy of other similar historical
systems is not high, so we need not pick just an asterism close to some
precalculated RA.  For example, the Chinese seasonal marker asterisms were
all very large and loosely laid out if you were looking to exactly quarter
the sky.  Similarly, the ancient Royal stars (Aldebaran, Regulus, Antares,
and I think Spica {?}) don't quarter the sky with any accuracy.  So 180
degrees from the Pleiades is near the Scorpio/Libra border and we need not
take Alpha/Beta/Gamma Libra as the nearest triangle.
	Within the paradigm of asterisms that quarter the sky near the
ecliptic, the Waterjar of Aquarius is a reasonably good match as being 90
degrees from the Pleiades, is a well known and stand-alone asterism near
the ecliptic with the right star placement.  So I have tried looking up
names for these stars in a variety of the usual references.  (The most
thorough although not error free is Allen's Star Names and their Lore.)
The Waterjar is variously called the Urn (western), the Felicious Tent
(Arab), Situla (Latin), and Kappa-alpha-lambda-pi-eta (Greek).  The four
stars are Gamma, Zeta, Pi, and Eta Aquarii, although these names
definitely postdate the VMS.  The only uniquely ID's star (within the
above paradigm) is the center star of the asterism (Zeta Aquarii).
Unfortunately, I can find no names at all.  Pi Aqr was called the 'Seat'
by Grotius.  Gamma Aqr is called Sadachbia from the Arabic Al Sa'd al
Ahbiyad which apparently means something like 'Lucky Star of Hidden
Things'.  Eta Aqr has no given names either.  So some of the above names
might be cribs for the labels of the VMS waterjar.
	I am reminded of something I have worked on extensively a decade
ago - the lunar lodge systems.  These are kind-of-like a zodiac with 28
(or 27) asterisms close to the ecliptic used by the Chinese, Indians, and
Arabs (for just the main systems).  {My research was to use the
determinative stars and various positional correlations to date the origin
of the lodges using precession as a tool.  I foudn that the Chinese system
definitely came first and its date was 3000+-1000 BC or so, while the
Indian lodge system was founded 1700+-800 BC and the Arab system at
300+-1000 BC.}  Many of the asterisms have two or three stars, often
fairly faint.  I will check tonight to see if I can find any reasonalbe
matches...
Cheers,
Brad




From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 18 15:12:19 2000
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Reply-To: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
From: "John Grove" <4groves@sprint.ca>
To: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
Cc: "Voynich List" <voynich@rand.org>
References: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10010181223030.9262-100000@astro.as.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Aldebaran
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:17:37 -0400
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----- Original Message -----
From: Bradley E. SCHAEFER <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>

> Hi;
> Could you please give me another explanation of your proposed
> system.  For example, I do not understand how the four asterisms can all
> be at the same right ascension.

    They're not at the same RA - They are at the same RA in reference to the
sunrise. If the sunrise is at 10h30, you'll find the given star at 8h00, if
the sunrise is at 23h43 - the given star would be found at 21h13.

And I do not understand how alignments
> are indicated nor how they point at anything and where is sunrise in the
> VMS.

The sun(rise) is at the center of the diagram and the alignment is from the
'key' star in a constellation pointing along the ecliptic toward sunrise -
or - directly through a second star as in Aquarius.  If you look at Leo's
front legs - one has Regulus at the 'knee' and a second point along the
ecliptic for the foot. The star on the ecliptic below Regulus is the one
that falls -2h30 from sunrise.

With Aquarius, the central star at the top of the waterjug lines up through
the forward star pointing toward sunrise.

In Scorpio, the triangle with Arcturus at the point falls at -2h30 from
sunrise.

Aldebaran falls in the right place in Taurus at -2h30, but the VMS picture
shows the 'key' star as being behind the Pleaides instead of in between them
and the sunrise.

John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Oct 19 23:14:08 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:13:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Lunar lodges as cribs?
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Hi;
	Some recent exchanges have been exploring the idea that the
'Pleiades' diagram might depict seasonal star markers.  The paradigm is
that the four asterisms quarter the sky and are near the ecliptic.
Roughly 90 degrees from the Pleiades near the ecliptic is a well-known
asterism now called the waterjar (a part of Aquarius) which has the same
shape as the four stars in the corresponding VMS asterism.  The other two
VMS asterisms are problematic.  There should be a pair of stars somewhere
near the Leo/Cancer border; and there should be an equilateral triangle of
stars near the Scorpio/Libra border.  Force fits can be given to the
prominent pair of bright equal stars in Gemini (Castor & Pollux) and
perhaps to Alpha/Beta/Gamma Libra.  The troubles are that Gemini is fairly
far from the quarter position while the Libra asterism is not a notorious
equilateral triangle.
	I got to wondering if the VMS author might be harking back to a
much more ancient and widespread tradition of the Lunar Lodges.  These are
a series of 28 (or 27) asterisms roughly along the ecliptic.  The Chinese,
Indians, and Arabs have major systems (obviously genetically related)
while there are many other derivative systems used throughout Asia.  Often
the asterism stars are fairly faint.  The Pleiades is one of the lodges
used by everyone.  The Hyades with Aldebaron is the next Lodge along.  So
at least for the most obvious asterism assignment we have a match with
Lunar Lodges.  And the Waterjar is an Arabic Lodge and also forms part of
the Chinese Lodge.  So for the more likely Arab source for the VMS, our
paradigm has two matches with Lunar Lodges.  What about the others?  For
the pair of stars near the Leo/Cancer border, it turns out that the Arab
Lodge is a pair of stars on the Cancer/Leo border!  The exact identities
of these stars are not known (variously ascribed to AlphaCancri&LambdaLeo
or XiCancri&LambdaLeo) yet are named 'Tarf' in Arabic for something like
"eye" or "look" in translation.  So now we have three good matches.  The
fourth asterism (an equilateral triangle near Sco/Lib) has no such obvious
match.  At least my primary source on the Arab Lodges identifies the Libra
equivalent as being only a pair of stars (Alpha and Beta).  The next lodge
over is notorious for being a prominent triple of stars (Beta, Delta, and
Pi Sco), yet they are also notoriously in an approximate straight line.
So the Lunar Lodge hypothesis for cribs has a fairly good match in all
cases, except that the triple of real stars is not in an equilateral
triangle.
Cheers,
Brad



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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	Does anyone know anything about "The Story of the
Vivian Girls" by Henry Darger (1892-1972)?  It's sure
news to me!  

Dennis
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Dennis wrote:
> 
> catherine yronwode wrote:
> >
> >  I have never heard of the Voynich Manuscript before, so at first
> > mention i thought this a modern hoax ala the fiction of Jorge Luis
> > Borges, Ishmael Reed, Robert Anton Wilson, and Umberto Ecco,
> 
>         The Codex Seraphinianus by Luigi Serafini
> http://www.io.com/~iareth/codindx.html
> might well be just such a thing!
> 
> > but if it
> > is not a hoax, then it certainly would be a fascinating project for
> > cryptographers with an interest in the occult. :-)
> 
>         It's not a modern hoax, since we have traced much of
> its earlier history.  We can't exclude a Renaissance
> hoax, but it's only a remote possibility.  The
> statistical properties of the text are weird in the
> extreme, but the text has a great amount of structure,
> so most of us don't think that it's a hoax.
> 
>         We hold various degrees of interest in the occult.
> Dr. John Dee may well be the man who sold the VMs to
> the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolph II of Prague, but I
> don't believe that he wrote or channeled it.
> 
> > Please consider running a list of the 5 best URLs on the Voynich
> > Manuscript and an intro to the topic, such as you posted here, past the
> > folks at the Sacred Landscape e-list. There are some gematria-oriented
> > number-crunchers there with good knowledge of the Western Esoteric
> > Tradition who might wish to know of the existence of your e-list. The
> > Sacred Landscape can be reached at
> >      sacredlandscapelist@egroups.com
> 
>         Excellent suggestion.  Thank you!

Strange...
I had never heard of he Voynich Manuscript either . . . (and i thank you
for bringing it to my attention) - but i thought it was interesting that
upon looking at the illustrations - the first thing that came to mind
was the work "The Story of the Vivian Girls, in what is Known as the
Realms of the Unreal, of the Glandeco-Angelinnian War Storm, Caused by
the Child Slave Rebellion" by mad Genius Henry Darger (1892-1972)
I used to spent many hours at the library photocopying those crazy
rosicrucian style diagrams and charts 
("Secret Symbols of the Rosicrucians" and Hienrik Khunraths
"amphitheatre of eternal wisdom" and that sort of stuff) that are
probably close to contemprorary with the voynich manuscript - and some
of the radially symetrical diagrams in the Voynich Manuscript really
remind me of the drawings i did around that time (inspired by said
rosicrucian  symbolism) - 
	But i made the jump from the Voynich Manuscript illustrations too Henry
Darger's befor i even though of the "rosicrucian" stuff........


> 
>         On a somewhat related case that might be right up your
> alley:
> 
> Deciphering James Hampton's Secret Writing
> http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/hampton/hampton.htm
> 
>         James Hampton was an "outsider artist" who created the
> magnificent
> Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations Millennium
> General Assembly,
> usually on exhibit at the Smithsonian's National Museum
> of American Art,
> in Washington, D.C., although it's on display at
> Williamsburg for a couple years.
> You need to look at the pictures on my site; it most
> resembles a very elaborate
> Catholic or Orthodox church altar.  Hampton put it
> together out of various kinds of junk.
> He was an American black man who worked as a
> janitor in DC and worked on this in the evening.
> 
>         However, Hampton also kept a diary in an unknown and
> still undeciphered script.  He also labeled items in
> the Throne with it and had signs using it on the
> walls.  My web site has images of several pages of his
> diary, as well as my transcription alphabet.  The site
> is devoted to deciphering the script.
> 
>         I haven't yet taken the time to put my latest
> hypothesis up.  I noticed that he does have an
> alphabet, and standard crypto tests indicated roughly
> the numbers of consonants and vowels of phonetic
> English.  I attacked it using standard crypto methods
> but got only gibberish.  I still think that his system
> represents English phonemes, but that he has a private
> language; see the notes on "Martian" at the end.
> 
>         I once showed you (cat) a couple of diary pages, and
> you said that it wasn't like the odd scripts in the
> grimoires that you sell.  I have yet to find any
> precedents at all for the script, although I think that
> such do exist.
> 
>         If you or anyone else look at the site and come up
> with more ideas, I'd sure like to hear them!
> 
> Yours,
> Dennis Stallings

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 20 10:30:36 2000
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From: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
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Subject: Numerical Coincidence
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f68r1, r2, and r3 appear to be related numerically - or then again it could
be just pure coincidence.

r1 - has the sun at top, moon at bottom with 29 labelled stars in between

r2 - has the moon at top, sun at bottom with 24 labelled, 12 unlabelled
interspersed, and 23 unlabelled on perimeter for a total of 59 stars.

r3 - is my now favourite Seasonal indicator (whether  constellations or
Lodges) that are separated by four sections of stars amounting to 11, 16,
18, and 14 for a total of 59 stars. (The opposing sides of 11 & 18 total 29,
while unfortunately the 16 & 14 total 30).

Putting r3 aside for a now, if you were to assign a numerical value to each
star in r1 and r2, along with a single value for both suns, and a single
value for both moons you could get something like this:

Starting with the Sun = 1 on r1, count each passing day with 1 star until
you reach 30 where you can mark it as a Moon for one month.

If you now move to r2, starting with the moon with a value of 30 since you
are carrying it over from the first page, you continue to mark each passing
day with 1 star (labelled or not is unimportant for now) until you finally
reach 90 where you mark it with a Sun for the completion of one Quarter (or
Season).

Now you go back to r1 where the Sun now holds a value of 90 and continue
on.... Until you reach 360 which would be the result of 12 equal zodiac
months of 30 nymphs too!

Why some stars are labelled and others not I can not quite grasp as yet
under my (perhaps forced) numerical coincidences.  T total of labelled stars
is 53 with 29 on r1 and 24 on r2.

I do not know if this is really going anywhere, but it seems like the
numbers add up to me...

For what that is worth :-)

John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 20 11:32:00 2000
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    > [Dennis:] But the Bantu languages put inflectional morphemes at
    > the beginning. Hmmm. When concocting an African theory of the
    > VMs, I considered using Ibn Battuta as the one bringing the VMs
    > back to the Mediterranean world. However, Swahili, if written at
    > all, was written in Arabic characters, which does not agree with
    > the clear Romance basis of Voynichese characters. I don't think
    > so...

I don't see why an "exotic" language would be incompatible with an
European-looking alphabet.

Whether the author was an European living abroad, or a native living
in Europe, once he decided to write a book in some exotic language,
he would have had many good excuses for inventing a new script for
it --- even if the language already had a standard script. In either
case, it is not surprising that he chose to model his new alphabet on
European scripts, rather than on the native one.

Consider for instance the Sequoyah script: the symbol shapes and
writing direction are inspired on European letters, yet it is a
syllabary and not an alphabet, and the sounds and language could
hardly be more non-European.

So I don't think that we can exclude African (or any other) language
just because the script is European-looking. 

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 20 12:17:18 2000
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From: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
To: "VMS List" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Math
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Oops, good thing I do not get paid for my math skills...

In my last, start with Sun = 0 vice 1. Then count each star as a day or
degree until you reach the moon at the bottom which will be 30 for the
month. Carry that over, etc...

John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 20 13:19:13 2000
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I do not believe that the VMS is a hoax, but let me play 
the devil's advocate for that hypothesis for a moment.

Most medieval hoax theories have assumed that the VMS was manufactured
to be sold as a fake Bacon original, or perhaps something Oriental.
But the discussion about Codex Mendoza made me think of another
variant.

News of American native books probably reached Europe in the early
1500's. Presumably, among the thousands of scholars and alchemists of
the time, there were many who would have paid a small fortune for a
Mayan codex, or even for a post-Columbian manuscript like Codex
Mendoza. However, those books must have been extremely rare. Even at
major cultural centers like Prague and Vienna, it is possible that no
one would have seen an American native book, and something like the
VMS could have easily been sold as the real thing.

Compared to the "Bacon" and "Oriental" variants, this one has the
merit of explaining why the bulk of the VMS contains not a single
recognizable European, Arabic, or Hebrew symbol. (Okay, there are the
symbols of the Zodiac, but the author --- who surely hadn't seen
an American codex himself --- may have unconsciously assumed them
to be "universals" used by the American natives too.)  Someone
who wanted to make a "fake Bacon" would surely try to plant 
here and there some hints that could be associated to Bacon;
and ditto for a fake Oriental book. 

On the other hand, the only unambiguous instance of a T-O map (the
schematic world map which was popular during most of the middle ages)
occurs in the nine-rosette page, at top right corner. To me, the
contents of that fold-out looks like the map of a fantastic land,
consisting of nine major islands connected by land bridges. The
placement of the T-O diagram would indicate that the whole archipelago
lies beyond the confines of the Old World, past an island with a 
volcano (which could be either Iceland or the Canaries) surrounded
by breaking waves, etc.  That *does* look like something that 
a forger would put in a fake Amerindian book...

As I said, I don't really believe in this theory, and anyway it does
not explain how the natural-looking "fake" text was composed.  
For whatever it is worth...

All the best,

--stolfi

PS. Ugo Pratt is a Venice-born artist, author of the "Corto Maltese"
comic books. One of his stories contains several dialogues by Polynesian
natives, which actually are barely disguised Venetian dialect. If the
VMS is a fake, the text must have been produced by an expedient of
this sort....

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 20 22:46:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:47:19 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	I can't resist.  Here's a list of several indigenous
African scripts:

http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Writing_Systems/List_of_Scripts.html

	Vai and Mende are syllabic scripts.  Bassa is a
phonemic script - a very beautiful one.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Writing_Systems/Amharic.html
has an interesting circle diagram, like a Lull diagram
with Amharic characters.

	This site, in French, shows several other systems:
http://www.bnf.fr/web-bnf/pedagos/dossiecr/sp-afri1.htm

	At 
http://www.bnf.fr/web-bnf/pedagos/dossiecr/ci-afriq.htm
	It notes:  "The principal properly African alphabets
(Vai, Mende, Bamoun, and Bassa) were born in the 19th
century.   They drew on millenary traditions for their
graphics....  Most of the African systems gave way to
Romanized transcriptions at the beginning of the 20th
century, except for Vai, which is still in use."

	To me, this sounds like the essential insight of
Sequoyah: the simple fact that language can be
written.  Once someone in an illiterate culture has
this insight, that person can devise a writing system
out of whatever is available.  

	I found these scripts while working on Hamptonese. 
Previously I thought that sub-Saharan Africans had only
written their own languages in Arabic script; I was
pleased to find these native scripts.

	The symbols for po^ and bo^ in the Vai syllabary look
somewhat Voynich-like to me.  

Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> 
> Consider for instance the Sequoyah script: the symbol shapes and
> writing direction are inspired on European letters, yet it is a
> syllabary and not an alphabet, and the sounds and language could
> hardly be more non-European.
> 
> So I don't think that we can exclude African (or any other) language
> just because the script is European-looking.

	Yes!

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct 22 18:24:26 2000
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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:33:15 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Dear Brad and all others,

I finally secured my copy of the November issue of S&T and 
enjoyed the article. It was quite a long time ago that I
first saw it and I can't exactly remember now what my comments
were. Probably I suggested that the attribution to Dee was
contested, but this was well before Rafal presented his
counter-evidence and certainly the Dee handwriting identification
presents the official viewpoint of Yale, based on the opinion
of a relevant expert. So, even though I am now be even
less inclined to believe it was sold by Dee, I cannot find
fault with how it's presented in the article.

On the images on pp. 41 and 42, I am at a loss to decide whether
it's the Sun or the Moon in the centre. Especially fol.67r1 on
page 41 really seems to show the Moon (given that there are two 
crescents), but then again there are the red triangles that 
could be the Sun's rays. In most other images of Sun/Moon in the
MS, the Sun is identified by short, wavy rays, such as on
f68r1 (top) and f68r2 (bottom).

Fol. 68r3, which is on p.42, also looks more like a moon, even
though the symbology of the wavy line to the Pleiades would
make sense if it were the Sun. It would indicate the heliacal
rising of the Pleiades, a major astronomical event in ancient
times.
The idea, suggested by various readers of S&T, that the four
quadrants indicate four equally spaced asterisms, is very 
interesting, but we should realise that the coordinate in
which they are equally spaced can still be chosen. Beside
right ascension it could be (ecliptic) longitude, but also
oblique ascension. That last one would be related to the
'time of rising' and depends on the latitude of the observer.

My problem with all these suggestions is, however, that first
of all it seems too much of a coincidence that there are
one, then two, then three and then four stars, and that they
seem to have been drawn just to evenly fill the available space.
The other 'coincidence' is that there are in all twelve labels,
a number that would seem to favour other theories.

There is one cosmo images in the VMs that has 28 items
or 28-fold symmetry (f69v) - an excellent crib for the
mansions (or lodges) of the moon. We do have a possible
one for the seven planets, on f67r2 and also that has not
led to any breakthrough...

My favourite responses from the S&T readers so far are:

- the one about the 'liber floridus' which supposedly has
  invented plants. I can see one shining through an image I
  have of a cosmological illustration from the book. This MS is
  discussed on the web because it also has an early world map.
  I wonder if it is mentioned in Arber or Blunt&Raphael. 
  Does anyone know of a publication about it?

- the reference to the recently-appeared books about zodiac
  images and the Polish author. It would be great if Rafal
  managed to get a reply from her.

That's all for now,
          Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct 22 22:05:27 2000
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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:06:39 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	On the original topic.  The totally cracked solutions
for the Phaistos Disk were often proposed by people who
were otherwise bright.  So many people simply know
what's so obvious to us - if you have little enough
material (with the VMs, just select a few pages) and
have a system with enough knobs to twist, you can read
anything into anything.  

	The only thing I found puzzling about the "Bible Code"
books is why the journal of the American Mathematics
Society would ever publish something like that.  I
remember one of the editors saying something like, "We
try to publish things that different groups of our
readers will find amusing [sic(k)]."  A real bastion of
integrity for the purest of the sciences!  

Dennis

Bruce Grant wrote:
> 
> > I'm all for working on Extraterrrestrial communication, but let's finish the
> > Voynich first.
> > Jim Comegys, Madera
> 
> I think it may turn out to be the other way around.
> 
> Bruce

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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:48:39 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	For no good reason, I set up the following web page:

Cathar Symbolism
http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/cathar/Catharsym.html

	The only thing even remotely Voynich-like are the
rosettes.  The crude graffiti shown can hardly be
compared to the complex rosettes of the VMs.  I suppose
that they might have had more artistic rosettes,
although I haven't seen any.  I only show a graffito
for the tau with a solar circle on top, but Richard
Shand has on his website a medal or coin with this
emblem that is not crude at all.  However, I really
don't think so...

	On another Cathar website I found an interesting bit
of info:

Les Cathares
http://www.multimania.com/cathares/

	"The Italian dualists were also pursued since the
middle of the XIIIth century.  The first burnings at
the stake took place in 1270.  The refuges of Lombardy
and central Italy thus became more and more uncertain
for the Cathar exiles from Languedoc and their local
co-religionists.

	"In Italy, the last sentence condemning dualist
heretics to burn at the stake is dated 1412, about a
century after the death of the last parfait of
Languedoc."

	The most definite date I've seen for this.  At least
half a century before the VMs.  

Dennis

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Subject: Re: OT - Enough to Gag a Maggot
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> I'm all for working on Extraterrrestrial communication, but let's finish the
> Voynich first.
> Jim Comegys, Madera

I think it may turn out to be the other way around.

Bruce

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct 23 11:54:39 2000
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:52:52 -0700
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References: <00Oct20.154007pdt.118084@gateway.madera.k12.ca.us> <39F4143A.DC6B3C36@mail.msen.com> <39F39D2F.AD1918A6@micro-net.com>
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Re: Dennis' remark on the Bible code: The paper on the so-called Bible code was
printed in 94 in Statistical Science which is published by Institute of Mathematical
Statistics. The editor (at that time R. Kass) supplied a comment saying essentially
that the referees could not identify the flaws in the work of the three authors
(Rips, Witztum, Rosenberg) so maybe some readers would be willing to invest time to
find those flaws. Indeed, in May issue of 99 a paper by McKay et al was published in
the same journal, completely demolishing the statistical procedure of Rips et al,
and the same Kass supplied a comment saying that the puzzle has been successfully
solved.  Of course, the endless torrent of alleged discoveries of new codes in the
Bible continues without signs of abating. Well, a Russian proverb is that fools are
neither sown nor harvested, by themselves them grow. I still keep on my site papers
showing the silliness of the code business, including a translation from Russian of
my paper printed in Moscow this year. Cheers, Mark.

Dennis wrote:

>         On the original topic.  The totally cracked solutions
> for the Phaistos Disk were often proposed by people who
> were otherwise bright.  So many people simply know
> what's so obvious to us - if you have little enough
> material (with the VMs, just select a few pages) and
> have a system with enough knobs to twist, you can read
> anything into anything.
>
>         The only thing I found puzzling about the "Bible Code"
> books is why the journal of the American Mathematics
> Society would ever publish something like that.  I
> remember one of the editors saying something like, "We
> try to publish things that different groups of our
> readers will find amusing [sic(k)]."  A real bastion of
> integrity for the purest of the sciences!
>
> Dennis
>
> Bruce Grant wrote:
> >
> > > I'm all for working on Extraterrrestrial communication, but let's finish the
> > > Voynich first.
> > > Jim Comegys, Madera
> >
> > I think it may turn out to be the other way around.
> >
> > Bruce



Dennis wrote:

>         On the original topic.  The totally cracked solutions
> for the Phaistos Disk were often proposed by people who
> were otherwise bright.  So many people simply know
> what's so obvious to us - if you have little enough
> material (with the VMs, just select a few pages) and
> have a system with enough knobs to twist, you can read
> anything into anything.
>
>         The only thing I found puzzling about the "Bible Code"
> books is why the journal of the American Mathematics
> Society would ever publish something like that.  I
> remember one of the editors saying something like, "We
> try to publish things that different groups of our
> readers will find amusing [sic(k)]."  A real bastion of
> integrity for the purest of the sciences!
>
> Dennis
>
> Bruce Grant wrote:
> >
> > > I'm all for working on Extraterrrestrial communication, but let's finish the
> > > Voynich first.
> > > Jim Comegys, Madera
> >
> > I think it may turn out to be the other way around.
> >
> > Bruce

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 08:20:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:20:36 +0000
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From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Word inflections in the Voynich
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>But the main limitation I see in Antoine's method is that he considers
 >the absolute position of each letter in the word to be a significant
 >parameter for statistical analysis. I.e., he assumes implicitly that
 >an n-letter word contains exactly n "inflectional", slots, each each
 >of them containing exactly one letter. 


I wonder if the core-mantle-crust perspective on the Voynich word
structure might give us a test through "inflections" of whether the
Voynich might be a special way of writing Latin (or Greek).

If this were Latin encoded by some special scheme, we might 
expect to find :

An identifier of word type - adjective, noun, verb 
An identifier of the Latin word root
An identifier for the Latin word inflection
with possible other things encoded - gender, case, tense

In Latin the number of inflections are high though surely less than
the number of word roots for the vocabulary needed in a treatise 
with such seemingly diverse sections as the Voynich. 
I think there are just over 50 noun inflections in Latin covering all the 
declensions. There are well over 200 verb inflections, while 
adjectives have about 70 inflections. These could be substantially 
pruned by missing out various underused forms.

Can any test be made of the Voynich word set which might find
some component of words which incorporates such a large number of
inflections ?

Has anyone made an attempt to see if the Voynich incorporates in
some way the inflections of a highly inflected language such as 
Latin or Greek?


Adam McLean




----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:  http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html
Alchemy Web bookstore:  http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com
Paintings: http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com/paintings

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct 23 21:38:53 2000
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Dennis wrote:

>         Does anyone know anything about "The Story of the
> Vivian Girls" by Henry Darger (1892-1972)?  It's sure
> news to me!
>
> Dennis

There is a site devoted to Henry Darger at http://henrydarger.tripod.com.

Bruce

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 10:09:48 2000
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:11:16 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	Thanks, Bruce.  Darger's art doesn't remind me of most
outsider art.  I don't find that he has the visionary
quality usually seen in outsider art; rather it reminds
me of Impressionism.  I suppose the little girls one
sees throughout are the Vivian girls.  Here's a scene
of them nude:

http://nmaa-ryder.si.edu/images/1986/1986.65.168B_1b.jpg

	These are hardly Voynich nymphs.  The nymphs are plump
and quite mature looking.

Dennis

Bruce Grant wrote:
> 
> Dennis wrote:
> 
> >         Does anyone know anything about "The Story of the
> > Vivian Girls" by Henry Darger (1892-1972)?  It's sure
> > news to me!
> >
> > Dennis
> 
> There is a site devoted to Henry Darger at http://henrydarger.tripod.com.
> 
> Bruce

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 10:22:13 2000
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:23:42 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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References: <00Oct20.154007pdt.118084@gateway.madera.k12.ca.us> <39F4143A.DC6B3C36@mail.msen.com> <39F39D2F.AD1918A6@micro-net.com> <39F45ED4.69C721FD@nctimes.net>
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Mark Perakh wrote:
> 
> Re: Dennis' remark on the Bible code: The paper on the so-called Bible code was
> printed in 94 in Statistical Science which is published by Institute of Mathematical
> Statistics. The editor (at that time R. Kass) supplied a comment saying essentially
> that the referees could not identify the flaws in the work of the three authors
> (Rips, Witztum, Rosenberg) so maybe some readers would be willing to invest time to
> find those flaws.

	Hmm.  I asked a while back whether there was any
mathematical way to prove whether a writing system
could be shown to be ambiguous by some sort of
mathematics.  A couple of people mentioned the "unicity
distance" of information theory, but this shows that in
most cases a string of around 50 characters is
unambiguous, so this isn't what we need.  As I've
observed before, one usually debunks these systems by
reduction to absurdity and/or by showing contradiction
of known facts, usually historical or linguistic.  The
Bible Code was reduced to absurdity by using Rips et.
al.'s method to read predictions of the assassinations
of world leaders into the text of Moby Dick.

	This isn't mathematics, of course, so the editor might
well not have known what to do.

> Indeed, in May issue of 99 a paper by McKay et al was published in
> the same journal, completely demolishing the statistical procedure of Rips et al,
> and the same Kass supplied a comment saying that the puzzle has been successfully
> solved. 

	But then this says that it *was* shown to be
fallacious by mathematics.  Could you give us some more
details?

>  Well, a Russian proverb is that fools are
> neither sown nor harvested, by themselves them grow. 

	I'll have to remember that one...

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 14:29:17 2000
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From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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References: <00Oct20.154007pdt.118084@gateway.madera.k12.ca.us> <39F4143A.DC6B3C36@mail.msen.com> <39F39D2F.AD1918A6@micro-net.com> <39F45ED4.69C721FD@nctimes.net> <39F59B6E.41C19009@micro-net.com>
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Dennis wrote:
> 
> Mark Perakh wrote:
> >

> > Indeed, in May issue of 99 a paper by McKay et al was published in
> > the same journal, completely demolishing the statistical procedure of Rips et al,
> > and the same Kass supplied a comment saying that the puzzle has been successfully
> > solved.
> 
>         But then this says that it *was* shown to be
> fallacious by mathematics.  Could you give us some more
> details?

I think that one, if not all, of the (first) 'et al' was Mark himself.
There should be pointers to the work at Mark's web site which also hosts
his (their) work about the VMs.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 16:21:06 2000
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Subject: Re: OT - Enough to Gag a Maggot
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:
> mathematical way to prove whether a writing system
> could be shown to be ambiguous by some sort of
> mathematics.  A couple of people mentioned the "unicity

It should be easy to formulate as a hypothesis test - what are the chances
that you could find similar quantities of "secret messages" in a
meaningless randomly-chosen section of similar text?  If that probability
is high or even reasonable, then it looks unlikely that the messages found
in the Bible were put there intentionally.

Matthew Skala
mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                   :CVECAT DELENDA EST
http://www.islandnet.com/~mskala/

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 17:49:50 2000
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Writing systems are not independent of language.  The scribes of the Voynich MMS could, certainly, have used a far-flung writting system to represent ordinary Latin but then we're stuck with the problem of transmission: how did they learn said far-flung script?  And if this hypothesis is true, are they using the far-flung script accurately?
If so, the base language would still be identifiable as Latin.

Coptic (Hellenistic Egyptian written in an adapted Greek alphabet) looks terribly outlandish at first blush, but Greek loan-words -- even badly spelled ones -- are still clearly Greek.

It would help immensely to know what language the Voynich MMS was trying to represent -- Champillion learned as much as he could about Egyptian (including studying Coptic) before he deciphered hieroglyphics:  to assume hieroglyphics represented Greek instead of Egyptian would have been a dire false start.

Lisa
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:45:45 +0000
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Alas, tantalizing only, it does not tell much, but here it is
nevertheless (and too damn expensive, too):


Perhaps some folks may be interested in this work. It appeared on the kenyon
Chinese list today.
Cheers,
Dyl.


Subject: Book: 17th century grammar of Mandarin


:Francisco Varo's Grammar of the Mandarin Language (1703).
:An English translation of 'Arte de la lengua Mandarina'
:With an Introduction by Sandra Breitenbach.
:W. South COBLIN and Joseph A. LEVI (University of Iowa)
:Studies in the History of the Language Sciences 93
:US & Canada:   1 55619 606 7 / USD 95.00  (Hardcover)
:Rest of world: 90 272 4581 9 / NLG 190.00 (Hardcover)
:
:
:Francisco Varo's Arte de la Lengua Mandarina, completed ca. 1680, is
:the earliest published grammar of any spoken form of Chinese and the
:fullest known description of the standard language of the seventeenth
:century.  It establishes beyond doubt that this 'Language of the
:Mandarins' was not Pekingese or Peking-based but had instead a
:Jiang-Huai or Nankingese-like phonology. It also provides important
:information about the nature and formation of pre-modern standard
:forms of Chinese and will lead to revisions of currently held views on
:Chinese koines and their relationship with regional speech forms and
:the received vernacular literature.  Finally, it provides a wealth ot
:information on stylistic speech levels, honorific usage, and social
:customs of the elite during the early Qing period.
:
:The book provides a full translation of the 1703 text of the Arte, an
:extensive introduction to the life and work of Varo, an index of
:Chinese characters inserted into the translation, and an index of
:linguistic terms and concepts. It should be of interest to a diverse
:readership of Chinese historical, comparative, and descriptive
:linguists, students of Qing history and literature, historiographers
:of linguistics, and specialists in early Western religious and
:cultural contact with China.
:
:
:
:                       John Benjamins Publishing Co.
:Offices:        Philadelphia                    Amsterdam:
:Websites:       http://www.benjamins.com        http://www.benjamins.nl
:E-mail:         service@benjamins.com
:customer.services@benjamins.nl
:Fax:            +215 836-1204                   +31 20 6739773
:

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 23:22:16 2000
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:18:44 -0700
From: Mark Perakh <perakh@nctimes.net>
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Subject: Re: Bible code maths, was Re: OT - Enough to Gag a Maggot
References: <00Oct20.154007pdt.118084@gateway.madera.k12.ca.us> <39F4143A.DC6B3C36@mail.msen.com> <39F39D2F.AD1918A6@micro-net.com> <39F45ED4.69C721FD@nctimes.net> <39F59B6E.41C19009@micro-net.com> <39F5D6FF.37933FDB@voynich.nu>
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No, I was not among et al in the paper by Brendan McKay (wtth whom though I cooperated on
the Letere Serial Correlation and with whom I discussed his paper on codes in the course
of its writing).. The four authors of the paper in Stat.Sci are B.McKay, D. Bar-Natan, M.
Bar-Hillel, and G. Kalai. While Maya Bar-Hillel is a professor of psychology (with
specialization in detecting frauds, usually subconcsious, in science) the other three are
all professors of math.  The paper by McKay et al can be seen, beside the journal itself,
on Brendan's site at www.cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim.  There is also  plenty about the
code in my site at www.bigfoot.com/~perakh/   . I published a paper on codes (without et
al) in Russian in Kontinent No 103, 2000.  Brendan et al attacked the paper by Rips from
many viewpoints, including purely stastistical, but not only. In my paper there are some
stastistical and some extra-statistical arguments, some differing from those by McKay et
al. Cheers, Mark

Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> Dennis wrote:
> >
> > Mark Perakh wrote:
> > >
>
> > > Indeed, in May issue of 99 a paper by McKay et al was published in
> > > the same journal, completely demolishing the statistical procedure of Rips et al,
> > > and the same Kass supplied a comment saying that the puzzle has been successfully
> > > solved.
> >
> >         But then this says that it *was* shown to be
> > fallacious by mathematics.  Could you give us some more
> > details?
>
> I think that one, if not all, of the (first) 'et al' was Mark himself.
> There should be pointers to the work at Mark's web site which also hosts
> his (their) work about the VMs.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Oct 24 23:53:14 2000
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:51:55 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: Voynich and African Writing Systems (Coptic)
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Lisa Karnan wrote:
> 
> Writing systems are not independent of language.  The scribes of the Voynich MMS could, certainly, have used > a far-flung writting system to represent ordinary Latin but then we're stuck with the problem of > transmission: how did they learn said far-flung script?  And if this hypothesis is true, are they using the > far-flung script accurately?
> If so, the base language would still be identifiable as Latin.

	I don't see this.

> Coptic (Hellenistic Egyptian written in an adapted Greek alphabet) looks terribly outlandish at first blush, but Greek loan-words -- even badly spelled ones -- are still clearly Greek.

	The Coptic script was based on *uncial* Greek script,
which I think is very beautiful.  If you were familiar
with the Greek uncial, I don't think Coptic would look
strange at all, because Coptic *was* Greek uncial, with
a few signs from demotic Egyptian added.  

> It would help immensely to know what language the Voynich MMS was trying to represent -- Champollion learned > as much as he could about Egyptian (including studying Coptic) before he deciphered hieroglyphics:  to > assume hieroglyphics represented Greek instead of Egyptian would have been a dire false start.

	Don't forget that Thomas Young was probably the one
who first thought that the signs in Egyptian cartouches
were alphabetic rather than morphographic - which our
friend Athanasius Kircher had not believed. But it is
indeed true that Champollion's Coptic made the
difference.

	Knowing the underlying language would indeed help
*enormously*.  That's one reason for finding the date
and place of provenance.  We usually say "northern
Italy" for various reasons.  I think the reasons are:

	1) Prof. Sergio Toresella noted that his "alchemical
herbals" were mostly found in northern Italy,
especially Venice.  The herbal images in the VMs really
don't look anything like the ones in the alchemical
herbals, but the alchemical herbals could have given
the author(s) the idea - which is what Toresella thinks
himself.

	2) The list of Renaissance cipher scripts, some of
which look Voynich-like and also could have given the
VMs author(s) an idea, was compiled by the chancery
crippie Trandechino - in northern Italy (which, be it
remembered, was also where the Renaissance was
flourishing).

	3)  Rene has noted that the astrological ms. which
contains diagrams with nymphs positioned around the
diagrams in a very Voynich-like fashion, was in
northern Italy at the time.  

	We feel pretty sure that the Voynich script was
derived from precedents available in this area, so the
problem of transmission is solved.  However, this does
not mean that the underlying language was necessarily
one used in the area.  Especially, Venice was a
cultural crossroads for all the Mediterranean area. 
Such things as Turkish, Arabic, Berber, Hungarian,
Croatian, Slovenian, Albanian, Greek, German, Hebrew,
Yiddish, Ladino, Russian, and Ukrainian could have
shown up in Venice, as well as the more obvious
Spanish, Catalan/Occitan/Provencal, French, the various
forms of Italian, Friulian, and Latin.  

	But you never know.  Kober and Ventriss didn't think
at first that Linear B was Greek, but Ventriss changed
his mind when he saw that Greek fit well.  

	I think the only thing we can do is to assume an
underlying language and work for awhile with that
assumption.  Even if the assumption proves false, we
would still learn a lot.  My choice is still medieval
French.  The folks who think Chinese should take that
and run for awhile.  

Dennis

From ekwall2@diac.com  Wed Oct 25 03:00:37 2000
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:53:08 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
To: "usat@usa.net" <usat@usa.net>
Cc: voynich manuscript <adams@cts.com>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au, chromexa@ovis.net,
        CHRYSIPPV@aol.com, crystal@interport.net, dmharms@ascu.buffalo.edu,
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        mikclrk@ibm.net, perakh@nctimes.net, perakh@www.bigfoot.com,
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        voynich@rand.org, voynich@study.club.ne.jp, webmaster@voynich.com,
        wilhelm@pixelpark.com, Zandbergen@t-online.de, zotzahau@aol.com
Subject: Voynich TEST - ERASE 1 of 3
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Hi all, & what the H*ck is this? ref:voynich 

I found your ID's in reference to VMS pages on the net.

  Please ignore this, this is a TEST MESSAGE (delete) -sorry for the
extra bandwidth.

I think I have NEW info for the DECODING of the VMS ... If you get two
or more of these msg's - sorry - I'm _NOT_ a member of any VMS list
and you may be. 

If you hate and despise VMS and don't want any new info - reply if you
like and I will omit you from the above CC list.   The next message (2
of 3) will be a corrected one and only show (blind-carbon.copy)
etc.. (as any returned ~old address'~ will be taken out for 2 of 3). 
Message 3 of 3 will be the NEW INFO (AND it's as ~weird~ in origin as
the Voynich Manuscript itself.)

If you ~SEE~ Others THAT ARE NOT in the CC: above please foward those
ID's as this is for _ALL_ that are searching for DECODING the VMS.

Best to you and yours;

-=se=-
steve (3x3) ekwall
ekwall2@diac.com


From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 25 04:32:10 2000
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Astronomical MS in Northern Italy (and a bit of Coptic)
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Dennis wrote:

> We usually say "northern Italy" for various reasons.
 
> [snipped]

>  3)  Rene has noted that the astrological ms. which
> contains diagrams with nymphs positioned around the
> diagrams in a very Voynich-like fashion, was in
> northern Italy at the time.  

There are two points I'd like to make about this MS.
Most importantly, I think, is the fact that it gives
a precedent. It means that the VMs writer did probably
(or should I say perhaps) not invent the nymphs in the
zodiac section out of the blue sky. 

The second important thing is one I (we) still need to
find out. Does this page stand all by itself or was it
part of a tradition? The MS in question contains the
so-called handy tables of Ptolemy, of which there are
other copies, some equally beautifully illustrated,
but
this particular page (known as the Helios miniature)
does not strictly form part of that text.

It would be a bit risky to take this one MS as
evidence
that the Voynich MS originates from N.Italy as long as
we don't know if there are other illustrations like
it.
At the same time, it lends some nice support for my
wild
theory (we're all allowed to have one, right?) that
the VMs
was written by George of Trebizond. He wrote a
translation
and a commentary on Ptolemy's almagest, and lived in
Venice and Rome. He would not have missed the
opportunity of
consulting this MS, which would have given him the
idea
of the nymphs...

> Don't forget that Thomas Young was probably the one
> who first thought that the signs in Egyptian
cartouches
> were alphabetic rather than morphographic - which
our
> friend Athanasius Kircher had not believed. But it
is
> indeed true that Champollion's Coptic made the
> difference.

The Coptic connection is the one thing that Kircher
did
get right (but was it more than a wild hunch?) and
Champollion acknowledged his debt to Kircher in that 
area.

Cheers, Rene

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Oct 25 15:00:06 2000
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From: "Harry Reed" <harry@infoscientific.com>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Please add me to the VMS mailing list.
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:57:02 -0700
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Hi,

    Please add me to the VMS mailing list.

Thanks,
Harry Reed

doon@infoscientific.com

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Oct 27 22:57:10 2000
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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:56:53 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	In testing out the Northern Light search engine, 

http://www.northernlight.com/

where list member Andras Kornai currently works, I
found the following Voynichiana 
which I hadn't seen before.  

	First the genuinely worthwhile:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A very interesting site:

Statistical Analysis of Voynich Manuscript
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/voynich/

by Tugba Onal Suzek,
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/
Grad Student at John's Hopkins

	Quite a few statistical analyses, some of which we
haven't done, such as beam search, and languages we
haven't investigated, such as Czech, Hungarian,
Slovene, Estonian, and Romanian.


Another interesting site:
Univariate Terms Project 
INLS 172, Jason Morningstar 

http://www.ils.unc.edu/~mornj/inls172-02.htm

    "To date, no one has attempted to use information
retrieval
formulae to investigate the possibility of an
unconventional (non-
western) underlying structure. It is possible that
measures derived
from this investigation will allow researchers to
dismiss this avenue
of approach altogether. Alternately, the results might
signal a need
for further research. No matter what the outcome, the
groundwork laid
by this project will prove useful for future research
into the
possibility of an logographic source.

    "It is important to note that a correlation with a
polysyllabic
language model does not imply that the manuscript was
necessarily
written in Hawaiian or Yupik - given the commonly
understood
provenance of the Voynich manuscript, this would be
impossible.
However, the 14th through 16th centuries saw the
creation of many
artificial languages in Europe, including those of John
Dee and
Hildegard Von Bingen. It is possible that the
underlying Voynich text
is similarly constructed, but using a novel
polysyllabic structure."

Duplicate Books
http://home.sprynet.com/~nedbrooks/igotbook.htm

mentions this Voynich biblio item  which I don't recall
seeing:

Horizon (Jan'63-Voynich Manuscript), ed. W H Hale,
American Heritage - $10


------------------------------------------------------------------

and now the somewhat curious:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The Outsider/Books
http://www.tccorp.com/outsider/to_book.html

Ex Libris Miskatonici

"Joan C. Stanley's excellent reference work takes a
look at some of the more unusual holdings of
Miskatonic University's famed library, detailing their
history and attributes. Titles covered include The
Pnakotic Manuscripts, The Eltdown Shards, The
Celaeno, G'harne, and Sussex Fragments, The
Seven Cryptical Books of Hsan, The Book of
Dzyan, The R'lyeh Text, The Dhol Chants, The
Ponape Scriptures, Codex Dagonensis, Les Cultes
des Goules, De Vermis Mysteriis, Peri ton Eibon
(or Liber Ivonis), Die Unaussprechlichen Kulten,
as well as the notorious Necronomicon. Also
included are information on The Voynich Manuscript
and Praesidia Finium (or Frontier Garrison), as
well as a bibliography and a history of Miskatonic's
library and how it came to acquire these works. This
is an absolutely top-notch resource, wonderfully
written and well organized. A must-have! #NP03,
$7.95, 68pp. "

(I assume Miskatonic University is mythical.  As I
recall, it's a running academic joke.)


Borges and the VMs:
fUSION Anomaly. Jorge Luis Borges
http://www.dromo.com/fusionanomaly/voynichmanuscript.html


http://www.reutel.nl/log/reutellog1-25.html
	in Dutch, although I don't think there's anything
new.  Rene's site is mentioned.

De Andere Verovering van de Hemel
http://www.casema.net/~cold/fre_sp2.htm

	Another in Dutch.  Mentions Kircher's receipt of the
VMs.

Occult, Paranormal or simply Strange, by John Snowman
Harris
http://alfa.ist.utl.pt/~l39866/oculto.htm
	In Portuguese.  

The Write Brain - Sub Rosa by Lynda Sweetman
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/wb/subrosa.html

	Mention in a short story.

http://www.compleatbellairs.com/commentary.shtml

	"The Fate of the Grinning Ghost brings back Johnny
Dixon, the professor, and lots of old
friends, including a familiar figure from The Trolley
to Yesterday. It also touches on the
Voynich Manuscript, a very real and very baffling book
from the Middle Ages that no one,
to this very day, can read. And, yes, there is an evil
ghost who threatens Johnny's family
-- but even more than that, who could cause a
catastrophe for the whole world. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	.... and plenty of Necronomicon, Cthulhu, and
Roger/Francis Baconiana which I'll spare you.

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 00:57:03 2000
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From: mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: New Voynich Stuff
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On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:
> (I assume Miskatonic University is mythical.  As I
> recall, it's a running academic joke.)

Miskatonic University was a fictional setting invented by H.P. Lovecraft
and used in some of his stories, most notably _The Dunwich Horror_, where
it was said to be one of the very few places with an original copy of the
Necronomicon; it also had a large collection of similar stuff.  Both the
place and the book have become, as you describe, a running academic joke.

Matthew Skala
mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                   :CVECAT DELENDA EST
http://www.islandnet.com/~mskala/


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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 27 Oct 2000, at 21:56, Dennis wrote:
> Borges and the VMs:

Every Voynichologist :-) should read these 3 fiction stories by 
Borges:

The Book of Sand
The library of Babel
The Congress

(I hope I translated the names correctly).

Cheers

Gabriel

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 08:01:09 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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Gabriel suggests:

    > The Book of Sand
    > The library of Babel
    > The Congress

I have read only the Library of Babel, and I second Gabriel's
recommendation. (The LoB is a short tale; in the same anthology there
were a few other interesting ones --- I recall one on the lost culture
of Tln, Ubar, and O(U?)rbis Tertius, and another on the guy who made
his life project to rewrite Don Quijote, using exactly the same words
as the original but with a completely different meaning.)

Myself, I would recommend Stanislaw Lem's "His Master's Voice".
Although it is a "slow" and sometimes boring book, the plot is sooo
much like the VMS affair...

Another marginally relevant tale by Lem is "Gigamesh" [sic], part of
"A Perfect Vacuum", a collection of prefaces for imaginary books.
(I believe that there you will learn also about the three classes of
geniuses; and the VMs author may well have been a Genius of the First
Class.)

By the way, yesternight when I got home (something I still do
occasionally) I randomly opened Martin Gardner's "The Unexpected
Hanging" and started reading about Flatland at page 143. On page 145
there was an addendum on George Boole's "remarkable daughters",
including a certain Ethel Lillian who married a Polish[sic]-American
book dealer, W. Voynich, and wrote an anti-Catholic novel that was
very popular in the USSR and China, etc.

Yes folks. Considering that that was probably the only occurence of
"Voynich" in all the books I have at home, it is obvious that we are
dangerously playing with a powerful Evil Force --- or at least a Quite
Annoying one.

But, after all, the Millenium is only a couple of months away...

All the best,

--stolfi 8-)

PS. It is quite ironic that Gardner would mention W. Voynich 
in that book of mathematical puzzles, and not say a single
word about the VMs, "the world's most mysterious" puzzle.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 09:16:43 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:16:56 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	Any opinions on the "genuinely worthwhile stuff"? 

	There' a lot to consider at Tugba's site.  

	I'm not sure what Joyce means by "polysyllabic", but
it sounds like the natural languages with low phonemic
entropy that I & Gabriel considered in "Understanding
the Second-Order Entropies of Voynich Text".  Her note,
"To date, no one has attempted to use information
retrieval formulae to investigate the possibility of an
unconventional (non-western) underlying structure" is
of more interest.  I wonder what information retrieval
formulae she has in mind.  

	On this page which I didn't notice:

http://ils.unc.edu/%7Emornj/inls172-01.htm

she proposes to poll us list members on our information
needs.  

Dennis

Dennis wrote:

>         First the genuinely worthwhile:
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A very interesting site:
> 
> Statistical Analysis of Voynich Manuscript
> http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/voynich/
> 
> by Tugba Onal Suzek,
> http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/
> Grad Student at John's Hopkins
> 
>         Quite a few statistical analyses, some of which we
> haven't done, such as beam search, and languages we
> haven't investigated, such as Czech, Hungarian,
> Slovene, Estonian, and Romanian.
> 
> Another interesting site:
> Univariate Terms Project
> INLS 172, Jason Morningstar
> 
> http://www.ils.unc.edu/~mornj/inls172-02.htm
> 
>     "To date, no one has attempted to use information
> retrieval
> formulae to investigate the possibility of an
> unconventional (non-
> western) underlying structure. It is possible that
> measures derived
> from this investigation will allow researchers to
> dismiss this avenue
> of approach altogether. Alternately, the results might
> signal a need
> for further research. No matter what the outcome, the
> groundwork laid
> by this project will prove useful for future research
> into the
> possibility of an logographic source.
> 
>     "It is important to note that a correlation with a
> polysyllabic
> language model does not imply that the manuscript was
> necessarily
> written in Hawaiian or Yupik - given the commonly
> understood
> provenance of the Voynich manuscript, this would be
> impossible.
> However, the 14th through 16th centuries saw the
> creation of many
> artificial languages in Europe, including those of John
> Dee and
> Hildegard Von Bingen. It is possible that the
> underlying Voynich text
> is similarly constructed, but using a novel
> polysyllabic structure."

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 09:24:06 2000
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From: Claus_Anders@t-online.de (Claus Anders)
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: new Voynich Stuff / recomended readings
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 15:23:06 +0200
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Dear all,
regarding recommended novels I found a interesting one in my library:
Eifelheim by Michael F. Flynn.
The story is about some aliens starnded in the 14th Century in Germany. One
of them was baptized and was called Johannes Stern (nomen est omen). This
Stern wrote a MS (in Latin) which described how to travel through space
without machinery.
The MS was insofar interesting, as the diagram of an electronic deviced -
needed for the travel - was hidden inside the decoration of the MS. 
What a pity this MS was in Latin--  Voynichese would be more approbiate.
Have Fun
Claus

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Special delivery from Instant Monkeys Online!
http://totl.net/InstantMonkeysOnline/

This quality monkey was ordered for you by
Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>

--------------------------------------------------

                         .="=.
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                    '-- "--'  '--'


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From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 10:02:44 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, U.K.
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On 28 Oct 2000, at 9:59, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> I have read only the Library of Babel, and I second Gabriel's
> recommendation. (The LoB is a short tale;

And so are the others.
The Book of Sand will be enjoyed by all VMS freaks, and if you 
collect *anything*, then The Congress is a must.

Cheers,

Gabriel

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 20:12:02 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 20:11:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Morningstar <mornj@ils.unc.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: New Voynich Stuff
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Hi All, 

I've posted to the list several times, and have been following the various
threads for quite a while.  The "polysyllabic information retrieval" stuff
is mine, from an IR course I took earlier this year.  I'm currently
working on a literature review related to the VMS, and intend to make it,
in some fashion, the focus of my thesis.  

I would tend to discount the content of those pages, which I generated
before I had seen some of the EVMT low entropy stuff.  

Best Regards, 

Jason

----------
Jason Morningstar
School of Information and Library Science
UNC Chapel Hill


On Sat, 28 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:

> 	Any opinions on the "genuinely worthwhile stuff"? 
> 
> 	There' a lot to consider at Tugba's site.  
> 
> 	I'm not sure what Joyce means by "polysyllabic", but
> it sounds like the natural languages with low phonemic
> entropy that I & Gabriel considered in "Understanding
> the Second-Order Entropies of Voynich Text".  Her note,
> "To date, no one has attempted to use information
> retrieval formulae to investigate the possibility of an
> unconventional (non-western) underlying structure" is
> of more interest.  I wonder what information retrieval
> formulae she has in mind.  
> 
> 	On this page which I didn't notice:
> 
> http://ils.unc.edu/%7Emornj/inls172-01.htm
> 
> she proposes to poll us list members on our information
> needs.  
> 
> Dennis
> 
> Dennis wrote:
> 
> >         First the genuinely worthwhile:
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A very interesting site:
> > 
> > Statistical Analysis of Voynich Manuscript
> > http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/voynich/
> > 
> > by Tugba Onal Suzek,
> > http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/
> > Grad Student at John's Hopkins
> > 
> >         Quite a few statistical analyses, some of which we
> > haven't done, such as beam search, and languages we
> > haven't investigated, such as Czech, Hungarian,
> > Slovene, Estonian, and Romanian.
> > 
> > Another interesting site:
> > Univariate Terms Project
> > INLS 172, Jason Morningstar
> > 
> > http://www.ils.unc.edu/~mornj/inls172-02.htm
> > 
> >     "To date, no one has attempted to use information
> > retrieval
> > formulae to investigate the possibility of an
> > unconventional (non-
> > western) underlying structure. It is possible that
> > measures derived
> > from this investigation will allow researchers to
> > dismiss this avenue
> > of approach altogether. Alternately, the results might
> > signal a need
> > for further research. No matter what the outcome, the
> > groundwork laid
> > by this project will prove useful for future research
> > into the
> > possibility of an logographic source.
> > 
> >     "It is important to note that a correlation with a
> > polysyllabic
> > language model does not imply that the manuscript was
> > necessarily
> > written in Hawaiian or Yupik - given the commonly
> > understood
> > provenance of the Voynich manuscript, this would be
> > impossible.
> > However, the 14th through 16th centuries saw the
> > creation of many
> > artificial languages in Europe, including those of John
> > Dee and
> > Hildegard Von Bingen. It is possible that the
> > underlying Voynich text
> > is similarly constructed, but using a novel
> > polysyllabic structure."
> 

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 20:21:16 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:22:56 -0500
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	But this is superb, Antonio!  Much thanks!  I'll have
to extract the bookplate for my own use.  

Miskatonic University
http://www.miskatonic.net/index.html

	Everyone, do have a look at the book.  
http://www.tccorp.com/outsider/to_book.html
of Miskatonic's library holdings.  Well worth it.  I'm
tempted to order a copy.  

	On Borges - I'd already had a good synchronicity.  On
alt.lucky.w, catherine yronwode, mistress of
www.luckymojo.com  , commented on the VMs:

>  I have never heard of the Voynich Manuscript before, so at first
> mention i thought this a modern hoax ala the fiction of Jorge Luis
> Borges, Ishmael Reed, Robert Anton Wilson, and Umberto Ecco, but if it
> is not a hoax, then it certainly would be a fascinating project for
> cryptographers with an interest in the occult. :-)

	I told her that the Codex Seraphinianus by Luigi
Serafini might be just the sort of modern hoax she was
thinking of!  

Dennis




antonini@icon.co.za wrote:
> 
> > (I assume Miskatonic University is mythical.  As I
> recall, it's a running academic joke.)
> 
> How 'real' is 'virtual'? Check www.miskatonic.net. (Too
> many links with 'page not found' to my taste.)
> 
> Claudio

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 23:30:14 2000
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Oct 28 23:42:19 2000
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Message-ID: <007901c04159$de97a9b0$4413f2c3@sur>
From: "Roman A. Surma" <roman_surma@mail.ru>
To: <voynich@rand.org>
References: <200010281330.GAA02527@arkanoid.dreamhost.com>
Subject: Re: Typing Monkey
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 06:39:13 +0300
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As for ASCII Art... Here is The Frog...

      .__.  
     /____\       
  /\/      \/\
 _\_/_\__/_\_/_

>8<   .__,
     /____\       
  /\/      \/\
 _\_/_\__/_\_/_

      >8<

      o__o
     /____\       
  /\/      \/\
 _\_/_\__/_\_/_

            >8<
      ,__.
     /____\       
  /\/      \/\
 _\_/_\__/_\_/_

           _>8<
      ,__,/
     /___/\       
  /\/      \/\
 _\_/_\__/_\_/_

      o__o
     /___/\       
  /\/      \/\
 _\_/_\__/_\_/_

      .__.
     /____\       
  /\/      \/\
 _\_/_\__/_\_/_


From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Oct 29 08:39:27 2000
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Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 07:40:50 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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To: Jason Morningstar <mornj@ils.unc.edu>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: New Voynich Stuff
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	Hi, Jason.  Pardon me, I got your name wrong.

Jason Morningstar wrote:
> 
> I've posted to the list several times, and have been following the various
> threads for quite a while.  The "polysyllabic information retrieval" stuff
> is mine, from an IR course I took earlier this year.  I'm currently
> working on a literature review related to the VMS, and intend to make it,
> in some fashion, the focus of my thesis.

	I'd be interested in the "information retrieval"
algorithms you have in mind.  

> I would tend to discount the content of those pages, which I generated
> before I had seen some of the EVMT low entropy stuff.

	Perhaps you mean

Understanding the Second-Order Entropies of Voynich
Text
by Dennis J. Stallings
http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/mbpaper.htm

I did discuss natural languages, including Hawai'ian,
that have low entropies in phonemic notation.

	You also like monkeys.  By all means download one of
our principal tools, MONKEY:

http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/monkey.zip

Try the "generate text" mode, in which MONKEY apes the
text file input.  Very much like "monkeys typing
Shakespeare".  In fact, try inputting a Shakespeare
file, and that's what you'll get! In fact MONKEY is for
calculating the conditional entropies of text; my paper
is the result of much such MONKEY business.

Dennis


> Best Regards,
> 
> Jason
> 
> ----------
> Jason Morningstar
> School of Information and Library Science
> UNC Chapel Hill
> 
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2000, Dennis wrote:
> 
> >       Any opinions on the "genuinely worthwhile stuff"?
> >
> >       There' a lot to consider at Tugba's site.
> >
> >       I'm not sure what Joyce means by "polysyllabic", but
> > it sounds like the natural languages with low phonemic
> > entropy that I & Gabriel considered in "Understanding
> > the Second-Order Entropies of Voynich Text".  Her note,
> > "To date, no one has attempted to use information
> > retrieval formulae to investigate the possibility of an
> > unconventional (non-western) underlying structure" is
> > of more interest.  I wonder what information retrieval
> > formulae she has in mind.
> >
> >       On this page which I didn't notice:
> >
> > http://ils.unc.edu/%7Emornj/inls172-01.htm
> >
> > she proposes to poll us list members on our information
> > needs.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> > Dennis wrote:
> >
> > >         First the genuinely worthwhile:
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > A very interesting site:
> > >
> > > Statistical Analysis of Voynich Manuscript
> > > http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/voynich/
> > >
> > > by Tugba Onal Suzek,
> > > http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~tugba/
> > > Grad Student at John's Hopkins
> > >
> > >         Quite a few statistical analyses, some of which we
> > > haven't done, such as beam search, and languages we
> > > haven't investigated, such as Czech, Hungarian,
> > > Slovene, Estonian, and Romanian.
> > >
> > > Another interesting site:
> > > Univariate Terms Project
> > > INLS 172, Jason Morningstar
> > >
> > > http://www.ils.unc.edu/~mornj/inls172-02.htm
> > >
> > >     "To date, no one has attempted to use information
> > > retrieval
> > > formulae to investigate the possibility of an
> > > unconventional (non-
> > > western) underlying structure. It is possible that
> > > measures derived
> > > from this investigation will allow researchers to
> > > dismiss this avenue
> > > of approach altogether. Alternately, the results might
> > > signal a need
> > > for further research. No matter what the outcome, the
> > > groundwork laid
> > > by this project will prove useful for future research
> > > into the
> > > possibility of an logographic source.
> > >
> > >     "It is important to note that a correlation with a
> > > polysyllabic
> > > language model does not imply that the manuscript was
> > > necessarily
> > > written in Hawaiian or Yupik - given the commonly
> > > understood
> > > provenance of the Voynich manuscript, this would be
> > > impossible.
> > > However, the 14th through 16th centuries saw the
> > > creation of many
> > > artificial languages in Europe, including those of John
> > > Dee and
> > > Hildegard Von Bingen. It is possible that the
> > > underlying Voynich text
> > > is similarly constructed, but using a novel
> > > polysyllabic structure."
> >

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Oct 30 05:11:42 2000
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Message-ID: <39FD48F8.4AF762EC@voynich.nu>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:10:00 +0000
From: Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>
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Dear all,

here's a nice image of an Arabic copy of Dioscorides,
which has a plant drawing that shows several elements
we also see in the Voynich MS (but not together
on the same plant :-) ):

http://www.etcl.nl/bc/goedgezien/kleurenafbeeldingen/kleur094.htm

This is part of a very nice web site of the Leiden University
library, but alas it is in Dutch...

Home page is:
http://www.etcl.nl/bc/goedgezien/
and 'kleurenafbeeldingen' means 'colour images' of which there
are quite a few.

Cheers, Rene

