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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:54:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Cc: "Donald E. Watson" <dewatson@sunflower.com>
Subject: Sequoyah the Great? -- was Re: Antoine Casanova's research
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On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, stolfi said:

Consider for instance the Sequoyah script: the symbol shapes and
writing direction are inspired on European letters, yet it is a
syllabary and not an alphabet, and the sounds and language could
hardly be more non-European.

And Dennis wrote:

To me, this sounds like the essential insight of
Sequoyah: the simple fact that language can be
written.  Once someone in an illiterate culture has
this insight, that person can devise a writing system
out of whatever is available.
________________________________________________

Stolfi and Dennis,

My research (and Native loyalties?) have led me to conclude that, while
your logic is flawless, it rests on a (little-known that it's contested)
*assumption* which Natives believe originated in missionary propaganda:
that Cherokee writing began with Sequoyah.

In *Tell Them That They Lie*, Sequoyah's descendants paint their side of
the picture, which includes ancient legends of how, long ago, a smaller
tribe came from the north with a writing system and joined the Cherokees,
and before Sequoyah you couldn't learn the writing unless you were of the
minor tribe. He was and a member of the Scribe Clan, and when he found
that everyone else who knew the writing except him had been massacred,
that he was the last one living who could write it, he relaxed the
hereditary requirement and everyone learned it in 3 yrs. They date it to
at least 5 (or 7?) years before Columbus. And they say the writing system
was inscribed on sheets of gold which were later stolen by a preacher
whose insights from "the angel Moroni" founded a church in Utah; the
tablets disappeared but are said to have been written "in a primitive
script" and about "an ancient history of North America." See my webpage
for more. (Sequoyah)

It's a syllabary because that's what Pre-Columbian North American writing
systems were -- syllabaries! The Algonquian people north of them had one
or more. See my webpage for more. (Blackfoot syllabary). As to looking
inspired by European alphabetic letters, allow yourself to consider the
heretical idea that our alphabetic letters were derived from original
syllabaries [uncontestable so far!] which originated in North America and
spread to the rest of the world 7000 years ago or so (strong case), or at
least were shared with North America around that time (I've seen the
evidence).

If what Sequoyah's decendants write is generationally accurate -- and
Indians I know find ancient teachings too sacred to mess with -- then the
self-serving missionary propaganda scenario becomes plausible: and away
goes the [only!] Native American Linguist icon, one that I once so admired
for his ability to quantum leap from sounds for the ears to "written
sounds" for the eyes! :-( However, the fact that he saved his language
from near-certain extinction puts him right back up there as an icon with
Alfred the Great, who similarly saved English from near-certain
extinction.

Since Alfred was given a title given to no other English monarch ("the
Great:) for saving the language, it follows that maybe we should be
talking of "Sequoyah the Great"! ;-)

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                                   -- Roy, Mystery Men

 

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Nov  1 21:40:29 2000
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Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 20:41:26 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Subject: Re: Sequoyah the Great? 
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Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> 
> Stolfi and Dennis,
> 
> In *Tell Them That They Lie*, Sequoyah's descendants paint their side of
> the picture, which includes ancient legends of how, long ago, a smaller
> tribe came from the north with a writing system and joined the Cherokees,
> and before Sequoyah you couldn't learn the writing unless you were of the
> minor tribe. He was and a member of the Scribe Clan, and when he found
> that everyone else who knew the writing except him had been massacred,
> that he was the last one living who could write it, he relaxed the
> hereditary requirement and everyone learned it in 3 yrs. They date it to
> at least 5 (or 7?) years before Columbus.

	They know the date with quite a bit of precision!  Is
it coincidental that it was just before Columbus?

> And they say the writing system
> was inscribed on sheets of gold which were later stolen by a preacher
> whose insights from "the angel Moroni" founded a church in Utah; the
> tablets disappeared but are said to have been written "in a primitive
> script" and about "an ancient history of North America." See my webpage
> for more. (Sequoyah)

	I'll have to look at your web page later.  But you're
saying that Joseph Smith did actually see golden
plates, which he said were "reformed Egyptian
characters".  Hmmm.  I was tempted to say that Smith
pulled off a bogus decipherment that makes Newbold,
Brumbaugh, and Levitov look like amoebae.  But in my
opinion he just made up a story that had nothing to do
with any gold plates.  Why didn't the Cherokee come
forth and expose his hoax?  It wouldn't have been a lot
of trouble before the Mormon church got established. 
Did the gold sheets contain Cherokee wisdom that the
Cherokee wanted known only to themselves?  In that case
they would simply have remained silent.  
 
> It's a syllabary because that's what Pre-Columbian North American writing
> systems were -- syllabaries! The Algonquian people north of them had one
> or more. See my webpage for more. (Blackfoot syllabary).

	As we've said before, syllabaries aren't practical for
all languages.  Also, Cherokee is a tone language, and
the Cherokee syllabary doesn't denote tones.  The
Cherokee call this "book Cherokee".

> As to looking
> inspired by European alphabetic letters, allow yourself to consider the
> heretical idea that our alphabetic letters were derived from original
> syllabaries [uncontestable so far!] which originated in North America and
> spread to the rest of the world 7000 years ago or so (strong case), or at
> least were shared with North America around that time (I've seen the
> evidence).

	Do share the evidence -- and it'd better be good! 
However, ~7000 years could put us at the time of the
very ancient cities found at Jericho and Catal Huyuk,
which predate currently known recorded history.  If
you're right, we might yet find writing in them, which
would be very interesting indeed! 

	There was a Scientific American article which proposed
a Nostratic supergroup of Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic,
and Dravidian.  Indo-European came from Catal Huyuk,
Afro-Asiatic from Jericho, and Dravidian from a yet
undiscovered site presumably to the east of Jericho. 
If we could find true original Indo-European writing by
looking further at Catal Huyuk, that would be an
immensely important discovery.  

	However, Jacques has had much to say about the quality
of what appears in Scientific American, and your theory
definitely needs more proof, which I eagerly await.

With tongue firmly in cheek,
Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Nov  2 12:40:47 2000
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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:40:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Codex Mendoza -- Atlantis
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stolfi wrote, "On the other hand, the only unambiguous instance of a T-O
map (the schematic world map which was popular during most of the middle
ages) occurs in the nine-rosette page, at top right corner. To me, the
contents of that fold-out looks like the map of a fantastic land,
consisting of nine major islands connected by land bridges. The placement
of the T-O diagram would indicate that the whole archipelago lies beyond
the confines of the Old World, past an island with a volcano (which could
be either Iceland or the Canaries) surrounded by breaking waves, etc.  
That *does* look like something that a forger would put in a fake
Amerindian book..."
_______________________________________

WOW! You've just described incredibly strong evidence for Atlantis from
the people who gave us the name of both that and the Atlantic itself
(-atl- is a frequent morpheme), and confirmed A.C. Ross' evidence from
asking Eastern Indians where their oldest teachings said they came from --
and they pointed out into the Atlantic. He reasoned that if the Atlantis
legends from Europe were true, then there should be equivalent teachings
all around the Atlantic -- on both "sides". Hmm -- where are the African
teachings about it? I think the 7 islands connected by bridges sounds
familiar too, and near the Canaries.

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                                   -- Roy, Mystery Men





On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br> wrote:

I do not believe that the VMS is a hoax, but let me play
the devil's advocate for that hypothesis for a moment.

Most medieval hoax theories have assumed that the VMS was manufactured
to be sold as a fake Bacon original, or perhaps something Oriental.
But the discussion about Codex Mendoza made me think of another
variant.

News of American native books probably reached Europe in the early
1500's. Presumably, among the thousands of scholars and alchemists of
the time, there were many who would have paid a small fortune for a
Mayan codex, or even for a post-Columbian manuscript like Codex
Mendoza. However, those books must have been extremely rare. Even at
major cultural centers like Prague and Vienna, it is possible that no
one would have seen an American native book, and something like the
VMS could have easily been sold as the real thing.

Compared to the "Bacon" and "Oriental" variants, this one has the
merit of explaining why the bulk of the VMS contains not a single
recognizable European, Arabic, or Hebrew symbol. (Okay, there are the
symbols of the Zodiac, but the author --- who surely hadn't seen
an American codex himself --- may have unconsciously assumed them
to be "universals" used by the American natives too.)  Someone
who wanted to make a "fake Bacon" would surely try to plant
here and there some hints that could be associated to Bacon;
and ditto for a fake Oriental book.

On the other hand, the only unambiguous instance of a T-O map (the
schematic world map which was popular during most of the middle ages)
occurs in the nine-rosette page, at top right corner. To me, the
contents of that fold-out looks like the map of a fantastic land,
consisting of nine major islands connected by land bridges. The
placement of the T-O diagram would indicate that the whole archipelago
lies beyond the confines of the Old World, past an island with a
volcano (which could be either Iceland or the Canaries) surrounded
by breaking waves, etc.  That *does* look like something that
a forger would put in a fake Amerindian book...

As I said, I don't really believe in this theory, and anyway it does
not explain how the natural-looking "fake" text was composed.
For whatever it is worth...

All the best,

--stolfi

PS. Ugo Pratt is a Venice-born artist, author of the "Corto Maltese"
comic books. One of his stories contains several dialogues by Polynesian
natives, which actually are barely disguised Venetian dialect. If the
VMS is a fake, the text must have been produced by an expedient of
this sort....

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                  -- Roy, Mystery Men



From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Nov  2 13:42:16 2000
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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Sequoyah the Great? 
In-Reply-To: <3A00D456.62502E12@micro-net.com>
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On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Dennis wrote:

> Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:
> > 
> > Stolfi and Dennis,
> > 
> > In *Tell Them That They Lie*, Sequoyah's descendants paint their side of
> > the picture, which includes ancient legends of how, long ago, a smaller
> > tribe came from the north with a writing system and joined the Cherokees,
> > and before Sequoyah you couldn't learn the writing unless you were of the
> > minor tribe. He was and a member of the Scribe Clan, and when he found
> > that everyone else who knew the writing except him had been massacred,
> > that he was the last one living who could write it, he relaxed the
> > hereditary requirement and everyone learned it in 3 yrs. They date it to
> > at least 5 (or 7?) years before Columbus.
> 
> They know the date with quite a bit of precision!  Is it coincidental
> that it was just before Columbus?

Ouch. I have no good answer to that, and I've actually wondered the same.
Was it worked out in great generational precision? Is that the date when
the minor tribe joined them? Or is it "metaphorical"?

> > And they say the writing system
> > was inscribed on sheets of gold which were later stolen by a preacher
> > whose insights from "the angel Moroni" founded a church in Utah; the
> > tablets disappeared but are said to have been written "in a primitive
> > script" and about "an ancient history of North America." See my webpage
> > for more. (Sequoyah)
> 
> I'll have to look at your web page later.  But you're saying 

that they're saying

> that Joseph Smith did actually see golden plates, which he said were
> "reformed Egyptian characters".

The word "reformed" suggests a simplification of ideographs to something
more like letters. The syllabary I'm thinking of is very much like the
Cree syllabary, which can be found in many reference books.

> Hmmm.  I was tempted to say that Smith pulled off a bogus decipherment
> that makes Newbold, Brumbaugh, and Levitov look like amoebae.  But in
> my opinion he just made up a story that had nothing to do with any
> gold plates.

Okay, and mine is that he actually saw some; I'll hang with my distant
relatives on this one. It being a primal history of America, he had to
include Indians as part of the lost 12 Tribes of Israel.

> Why didn't the Cherokee come forth and expose his hoax?  It wouldn't
> have been a lot of trouble before the Mormon church got established.  
> Did the gold sheets contain Cherokee wisdom that the Cherokee wanted
> known only to themselves?  In that case they would simply have
> remained silent.

Should they have complained before or after the massacres and Trail of
Tears forced relocation? Let's remember their "enemy" status at the time,
in the way of "progress" -- and they should have revealed earlier that
they actually had writing? It was sacred knowledge even to the Cherokees.
  
> > It's a syllabary because that's what Pre-Columbian North American writing
> > systems were -- syllabaries! The Algonquian people north of them had one
> > or more. See my webpage for more. (Blackfoot syllabary).
> 
> As we've said before, syllabaries aren't practical for all languages.  
> Also, Cherokee is a tone language, and the Cherokee syllabary doesn't
> denote tones.  The Cherokee call this "book Cherokee".

What an excellent point, putting fuel on my fire!! If my guess and my
ancestors' teachings are right, the syllabary would have been Algonquian,
with no tones and four vowels (so the syllabic characters "twirled",
honoring the Four Directions to indicate or hint at the vowel). Cherokee,
however, coming from a different, southern origin, would prove to be a
difficult fit; over time, the characters would have been modified, new
characters added, etc., in order to better fit the Cherokee system. Too
bad they didn't twirl characters for tone! But this does better explain
the rather puzzling outcome of a syllabary when Sequoyah the Great
supposedly only saw vowel-inclusive alphabetic letters.
 
> > As to looking
> > inspired by European alphabetic letters, allow yourself to consider the
> > heretical idea that our alphabetic letters were derived from original
> > syllabaries [uncontestable so far!] which originated in North America and
> > spread to the rest of the world 7000 years ago or so (strong case), or at
> > least were shared with North America around that time (I've seen the
> > evidence).
> 
> Do share the evidence -- and it'd better be good!  However, ~7000
> years could put us at the time of the very ancient cities found at
> Jericho and Catal Huyuk, which predate currently known recorded
> history.  If you're right, we might yet find writing in them, which
> would be very interesting indeed!

I can't share the actual evidence; that's owned by Stan Knowlton, and he
hasn't even shared a hard copy with me.

What I can share (after framing this within a context where Egyptian
mummies have traces of THC, cocaine and tobacco -- only known to have been
grown in the Americas at that time -- this suggesting transoceanic
Atlantic trade routes) is my own experience. After showing me an ancient
economic transaction token found with a bunch of them in a Canadian
Rockies archaeological dig that was identical to pictures of the same
found in Mesopotamia and dated to (?!) either 6000 or 4000 BC, he showed
me a chart filled with syllabic characters. I recognized the first row of
about 8-9 symbols because of my working familiarity with the Cree
syllabary, but the label on this was "Blackfoot Syllabarium." The
characters on the next row matched the first row pretty well, sometimes
with reorientation, and same for the last two rows. The labels for these
others were: "Ancient Arabic," "Ancient Sanskrit," and "Cypriote Script"!

I've since determined that it's possible that Arabic and Sanskrit began as
simple syllabics -- maybe they stopped twirling because of 5 or more
vowels in their systems; either that or the Algonquians were more
brilliant than we had surmised, twirling hitherto static letters to at the
same time honor the Four Directions and indicate their precisely 4 vowels!
Hmmm -- I'll bet the "meanings" of the four vowels also embody
characteristics of the Directions (E = beginnings; S = heat & growth; W =
sunsets & maturing; N = cold & wisdom). People with southern origins
(esp. below the equator, I think) go counter-sunwise instead of sunwise
(i.e., "clockwise") around the circle.

> However, Jacques has had much to say about the quality of what appears
> in Scientific American, and your theory definitely needs more proof,
> which I eagerly await.

Proof I can't give; sorry -- not mine to give. But I can tell you my own
experience with the evidence.

> With tongue firmly in cheek,
> Dennis


Don't bite it! ;-)

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                                   -- Roy, Mystery Men



From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Nov  5 12:56:55 2000
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From: Adam McLean <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
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In view of the relationship between Dioscorides and the Voynich
herbal section, this booki might be of some interest. I have not
yet seen a copy this is just the blurb from the publishers

Adam McLean

---------------------------

NEW BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT from IBIDIS PRESS 
 
DIOSCORIDES
DE MATERIA MEDICA
'The Bible of Herbals'
FIVE BOOKS IN ONE VOLUME


BEING AN HERBAL WITH MANY OTHER MEDICINAL MATERIALS
WRITTEN IN GREEK IN THE FIRST CENTURY OF THE COMMON ERA 

A PROFUSELY ILLUSTRATED, NEW INDEXED VERSION IN MODERN ENGLISH BY TA
OSBALDESTON & RPA WOOD, WITH MUCH ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY.

This volume is profusely illustrated, with discussions on the botanical
illustrations and illustrators, a chronological list of Dioscoridean printed
books from incunabula to the present, an invaluable Dioscoridean
bibliography, and an extensive introduction covering the history of the man;
the teachings; the writings - manuscripts;  the writings - printed books;
and an overview of the historical assessments of the work of Dioscorides. A
new translation of the original dedication and a gazetteer of Dioscorides'
world, with modern references for the places mentioned, are also included.

Please forward enquiries and order form requests to  ibidis@netactive.co.za

----------------------
alchemy@dial.pipex.com
Web site:  http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html
Alchemy Web bookstore:  http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com
Paintings: http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com/paintings

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Nov  9 00:52:17 2000
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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 00:51:38 -0500
From: john stojko <oko@worldnet.att.net>
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I posted in my home page
http://home.att.net/~oko/home.htm
bilingual Greek-and-Lydian and olso
short and long Greek inscriptions.

john

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Nov 10 17:26:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:27:23 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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I have come across some strange languages, and still,
this one surprised me. It is called "Mingo". But
its name cannot be "Mingo", for the simple reason that
it has no m, no ng, no o. Its native name is...
unysho~tk'  by which you may have guessed: yes,
it is an American Indian language.  Now, it has
six vowel:  

a, e, i, u, e~ (nasal e), o~ (nasal o)

and... eight consonants (of two are in
fact semi-vowels). But wait for them:

h, k, n, s, t, w, y, ' 

Look, no m, no p, no b, no f...!
No labials at all (I don't count
the semi-vowel w as a labial).
And by the way, that "sh" in its
name was s+h, as in "grasshopper",
not as in "sip". That is not the
end of it. It has at least three
vowel lengths: short, medium, long.
(I wrote "at least" because its
description is quite obscure. It
might have four).

It has two main "genders": "agent"
and "patient" -- "manufactured" and
"naturally occurring" would have been
better terms. Agent nouns start  with
ka-, patient nouns with u- 

For more, go there:

http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/egads/mingo/

(Beware: they used eccentric spelling 
conventions, e.g. an umlaut for a short
nasal, circumflex for long nasal, etc.)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Nov 10 20:06:14 2000
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:05:04 EST
Subject: Re:  Another language candidate for the VMS
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Jacques Guy notes the Mingo Web site:
http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/egads/mingo/

This is a strange story, its facts somewhat in dispute. Thomas McElwain, 
about 50 years old, at least a few years ago was the ONLY known speaker of 
this obscure Iroquoian language, whose speakers supposedly hid out in the 
West Virginia hills after the Civil War. He is the informant for Jordan 
Lachler, a graduate student in linguistics.

An Algonkianist I know (who did his Ph.D. studies with the legendary Mary 
Haas) who has some competence in Iroquoian (the language groups are not 
related to each other, though they are geographically adjacent) has told me 
that he believes that this whole story may be a fabrication.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 11 02:28:29 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 07:30:03 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:

> This is a strange story, its facts somewhat in dispute. Thomas McElwain,
> about 50 years old, at least a few years ago was the ONLY known speaker of
> this obscure Iroquoian language, whose speakers supposedly hid out in the
> West Virginia hills after the Civil War....
> 
> An Algonkianist I know (who did his Ph.D. studies with the legendary Mary
> Haas) who has some competence in Iroquoian (the language groups are not
> related to each other, though they are geographically adjacent) has told me
> that he believes that this whole story may be a fabrication.

I must confess that the same suspicion occurred immediately to, 
seeing that I got the reference from alt.language.artificial.

Also, when I was sent in 1977 to chase up a dying language
called Laghu in the Solomon Islands, I was first directed
to an informant by the name of Gudu, who turned out to
be a first-class bullshit artist. My suspicion became
certainty when, two days apart, he gave me different
words -- different by only one phoneme -- but such 
common words as "head" and "four".Laghu cleary being
Austronesian and seemingly a mixture of Kokota and
Zabana, it made no sense. Eventually I found an 80-year
old informant, whom I knew to be honest, because,
every other word, he'd tell me "Sorry, I don't remember".

Nevertheless, we have here _yet_ an interesting problem
to solve.

1. Is Mingo a fabrication?
2. How do we tackle the problem?
   a) Who is the bullshit artist (if there is one)?
      The informant, or the linguist?
   b) What evidence do we have?

It is abominably familiar, because, for my PhD, I
was sent to analyse an unknown language of Vanuatu.
It was not even known whether it was Papuan or
Austronesian. My supervisor's reaction to the first
sample I sent of it was "it's Papuan." No, it turn
out to be perfectly good Austronesian, without any
Papuan mixed. Since no-one knew about the language,
I was strongly tempted to invent it from scratch.
Then I thought "it's too much trouble, too much
work."

The description of Mingo on that web site is
hideously obscure (but I have seen much worse
from my head of department, Prof. Stephen
Worm). The only answer I can think of is:
from the corpus of texts  available, do I smell
a rat? I am not overly worried about the lack
of labials -- archaic Basque lacked /m/ -- I
am not worried about three vowel lengths or
more (I have read somewhere that Estonian had
three). And about the lack of labials, did I
mention in  this list that 

1. There is a tribe in Indonesia (forgot which)
   where children are raised by their grandmothers
   who chew betel all day long. When they speak,
   they tuck their betel quid between their
   lower lip and teeth, so that they cannot
   pronounce bilabials.  They replace them with
   velar.

2. My wife used to have a personal language,
   some of it total fabrications (akakwa =
   cake, shita = bucket, akakunga = my hat), 
   but some clearly French in disguise (nana~
   yanin = "maman Jeannine", tete kane~ =
   "pp clin", shetakonsha = "c'est pas
   comme a). Have you noticed? No bilabials,
   every French bilabial replaced by a dental!

This Mingo sends us back to the original puzzle:
is Voynichese a natural language, an invented
language, or just gibberish? 

For Mingo, the problem might be easier. Presumably,
it is algonquian. Comparative phonology ought to
help tell.  Compare it with other Algonquian
languages, with Proto-Algonquian as reconstructed,
see if it makes sense. If it makes sense, it is
highly likely that the informant did not make it
up. Remains the possibility that the linguist
made it up! Alas, for Voynichese... c'est une autre
paire de manches.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 11 09:13:31 2000
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From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:13:00 EST
Subject: Re: Another language candidate for the VMS
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I'll ask the Algonkianist if he'll tell us what he knows about Mingo as a 
possible fabrication.

The lack of labials suggests that the language is indeed Iroquoian, since 
Iroquoian languages characteristically lack labials. The only language in 
this group I know anything about is Cherokee (because I live near their 
eastern tribal lands), and it lacks them. Thus our well known Qualla Boundary 
derives its name from the English woman's name Polly, as loaned into a 
language without labial stops.

A well known example of a fabricated language in the Austronesian area was 
the supposed language of the alleged "Stone Age" isolate people called 
Tasaday in the Philippines. The press went wild over this - I don't remember 
the details, but their language was fabricated out of the nearby Hiligaynon 
language.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 11 16:12:58 2000
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From: Adams Douglas <adamsd@cts.com>
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Subject: Re: Another language candidate for the VMS
To: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:12:19 -0800 (PST)
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <ca.ca691bb.273eadec@aol.com> from "RSRICHMOND@aol.com" at Nov 11, 2000 09:13:00 AM
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RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
> 
> A well known example of a fabricated language in the Austronesian area was 
> the supposed language of the alleged "Stone Age" isolate people called 
> Tasaday in the Philippines. The press went wild over this - I don't remember 
> the details, but their language was fabricated out of the nearby Hiligaynon 
> language.

I was hoodwinked by the Tasaday hoax in 1972, when I did a paper on them
while a freshman. I do happen to remember one phrase of "Tasaday":

	Momo dakel diwata tasaday == great white brother to the tasaday

This phrase was used to refer to their "discoverer", Manuel Elizalde, Jr.,
who seems to have concoted the scheme, which also involved getting the area
declared a national preserve by the Marcos government so that Elizalde's
cronies could illegally log the area (where no one really lived).

Good summary at:

	http://www.uiowa.edu/~anthro/webcourse/lost/Tasaday/Tasaday.htm

-Adams

-- 
====================================================
Adams Douglas, San Diego, CA   Adams@Douglas.net
http://Adams.Douglas.net/
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      but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in 
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                              - William Thomson (Lord Kelvin)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 18 01:32:26 2000
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:20:41 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Voynich Mailing List Enrollment Request
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I would greatly appreciate being having my e-Mail address included in
the Voynich Mailing list. Thank you.

Regards,
Dana Scott

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Nov 22 08:41:49 2000
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:38:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bradley E. SCHAEFER" <schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Precedents for the odd VMS zodiac figures??
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Hi;
	I just received this email in response to my Sky & Telescope
article.  The writer mentions two specific books from the late 1400's that
each have one of the weird zodiacal drawings that apparently match the VMS
version.  I am unclear as to whether Profnim@aol.com is the writer's email
address or just part of the forwarding from S&T.  Could someone tell me
whether they have seen these possible precedents??
Cheers,
Brad
schaefer@astro.as.utexas.edu


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:52:52 -0500
From: "by way of Jill D. Considine <jconsidine@skypub.com>" <Profnim@aol.com>
To: schaefer@grb2.physics.yale.edu
Subject: re: Bradley Schaefer.../Voynich manuscript.....

Hi Bradley, i read your article and thought i'd post a response....you asked 
for info about a precendent zodiac displaying particular qualities...i don't 
think you'll find another exactly like the voynich.....similarities can be 
found in German and French zodiacs....and by the very nature of the voynich, 
i think you should assume that this version is a personalised work by a 
scholar who was well travelled/read and has made his own version according to 
taste...to see similar versions, check out "Martyrologium der Heiligen nach 
dem Kalender"(strasbourg 1484) for a zodiac that has a lobster for 
cancer...and "Cy est le Compost et Kalendrier des Bergers"(Paris 1499) for 
one that has a lizard for scorpio....

all up, i don't think your concern should be with finding an exact 
match...(with so much work having been done on the subject already, it would 
have come to light by now)

you should concentrate on finding the cipher(crib)....

ps: the repetitive writing reminds me of old schemhamphoras...but might just 
be "day descriptions".....also the banding design in the large image on page 
42 reminds me of the "sky band" writing style of the Maya....the small image 
of the sun on the same page is a description of the 4 quarters of light as 
one cycle of time/energy...(see appended illustration)

best wishes from Barney

profnim@aol.com.au



From ekwall2@diac.com  Wed Nov 22 04:05:04 2000
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:24:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
To: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
Cc: voynich manuscript <bdm@cs.anu.edu.au>, chromexa@ovis.net,
        crystal@interport.net, dmharms@ascu.buffalo.edu, ekwall2@tfn.net,
        pam <figment@nettally.com>, g.landini@bham.ac.uk,
        ixohoxi@trinity.psnw.com, jim@acm.org, jim@rand.org,
        kckluge@eecs.umich.edu, lc <lauraconlon@juno.com>, mark@nctimes.net,
        mikclrk@ibm.net, perakh@nctimes.net, pzotzahau@aol.com,
        rafalp@main.amu.edu.pl, reeds@research.att.com, rshand@home.com,
        stolfi@solimoes.dcc.unicamp.br, voynich@rand.org,
        voynich@study.club.ne.jp, voynich@study.club.ne.jp,
        wilhelm@pixelpark.com
Subject: Re: VMS ~folding KEY 101~
In-Reply-To: <1001121094335.ZM19357931@fry.research.att.com>
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Hi Jim,  (smiles)

 No, actually I have a personal list here of any address I could FIND
on the net of those that have :voynich *.*: 10.2000: I tried to join
one at ATT
I think (but THAT list owner was just out for a 5 weeks vacation)
(that
one is in america (i assume), the hottest by HITS pages was in UK or 
Europe somewhere, *.DE, and one in Japan? : and " a Pene? Pele? Rene?
(something) which I
at
first thought was a female name?- mentioned his wife too, BUT HE said
"go away - TAKE ME OFF this list (mine) ... I hence stopped LOOKING as
I had to create my pages by hand (html) and mail myself to bounce.. I
don't have a scanner for PICS (jpg's) so use MS paint... then send to
another address (forwarded) to me - to insert in my page (soon
defunct? ISP address). 

Hope that makes sense - but your question is a Right (logically)
correct one...  

I should have delimited that to: IS the USA (ATT) or Europe
www.voynich.com / .de? .jp?
or OTHER(s) out there "_THE_" "VOYNICH.LIST" 

and WHAT is ITs (THAT) address? 

If it is _only_ "ATT" I assume I WILL be on it in about 2-3 weeks from
now, IS (are) there another list(s) you know of?
 
Thanks for your reply & help
-=se=-
steve (HaPpY ThAnKsGiViNg there to all) ekwall

p.s. ~Oddly~ there are only about -20+- people on MY LIST here.  
(one is my sister, (and SHE doesn't Count - ha.haaa))
DO you know (rough) grand total out there? of/on the Voynich.LIST? 

thx again.

p.s.s - I see YOU are also "research.ATT.com" ADD ME ~Please~??  thx


----------------------------------------
 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:43:35 -0500
 From: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
 To: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
 Cc: reeds@research.att.com
 Subject: Re: VMS ~folding KEY 101~
 
 Steve,
 
 I'm a little puzzled by your comment
 
 > p.s. someone mentioned a "voynich.list"  Is there such a group now?
 > could you send me that ISP address?... 
 
 as you seem to have sent your email via the Voynich list. 

>-=se=->  
COOL, I seem to be _ON_ then - thanks 
I've EXPOSED the 'CC' header to THIS e.mail to hopeful explain how you
might have recieved it (hopefully not in error), as compared to
another existing LIST out there.  I will try to NOT EXPOSE the 'CC'
area in the future, as I know it ~wastes Band-width~  (sorry all)
<-=se=-<

 To
 join you should send a request to Jim Gillogly, jim@acm.org,
 asking to be added.  Then you get copies of all email
 sent to the VMS list, voynich@rand.org .

>-=se=-> 
 WoW : hummmm, so, "acm.org" = "ATT" = "rand.org" = VOYNICH_LIST! 
OK - I CAN handle this... (i hope (ha.haaa) I will resend another in
3-4 weeks if "rand.org?" doesn't appear in the e.mail box etc..
AND I ASSUMED the FOLDING KEY WAS _EASY_ (ha.haaa) just Kidding.. 
Thanks for your reply...
<-=se=-<

 -- 
 Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
 Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA
 
 reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178
 
 
>-=se=-> 
Finally, I think I'm making a business move forced by Dec 31st.. that
will not bode well for winter DECODING by myself... (I think my page
is DONE anyway (per ES) I won't be able to READ it anyway (sigh))<br>
IF I get a chance, I will take one page at a time and put it up in
MIRROR Image, (After the ES FOLDing etc..) and maybe ONE of the group
can reconize ITS language strokes of the pen in REVERSE on one of 
these ..

best to you & yours<br>
-=se=-
steve (the TOUCHED ONE (ha.haaa)) ekwall
but hey (on the lighter side - just 1/12th) ha.haaa<p>

take care ALL

<-=se=-<

From chromexa@ovis.net  Thu Nov 23 17:22:15 2000
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:58:09 -0500
From: Steve Kudlak <chromexa@ovis.net>
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To: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
Cc: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>, voynich manuscript <bdm@cs.anu.edu.au>,
        crystal@interport.net, dmharms@ascu.buffalo.edu, ekwall2@tfn.net,
        pam <figment@nettally.com>, g.landini@bham.ac.uk,
        ixohoxi@trinity.psnw.com, jim@acm.org, jim@rand.org,
        kckluge@eecs.umich.edu, lc <lauraconlon@juno.com>, mark@nctimes.net,
        mikclrk@ibm.net, perakh@nctimes.net, pzotzahau@aol.com,
        rafalp@main.amu.edu.pl, rshand@home.com,
        stolfi@solimoes.dcc.unicamp.br, voynich@rand.org,
        voynich@study.club.ne.jp, wilhelm@pixelpark.com
Subject: Re: VMS ~folding KEY 101~
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Steve Ekwall wrote:

> Hi Jim,  (smiles)
>
>  No, actually I have a personal list here of any address I could FIND
> on the net of those that have :voynich *.*: 10.2000: I tried to join
> one at ATT
> I think (but THAT list owner was just out for a 5 weeks vacation)
> (that
> one is in america (i assume), the hottest by HITS pages was in UK or
> Europe somewhere, *.DE, and one in Japan? : and " a Pene? Pele? Rene?
> (something) which I
> at
> first thought was a female name?- mentioned his wife too, BUT HE said
> "go away - TAKE ME OFF this list (mine) ... I hence stopped LOOKING as
> I had to create my pages by hand (html) and mail myself to bounce.. I
> don't have a scanner for PICS (jpg's) so use MS paint... then send to
> another address (forwarded) to me - to insert in my page (soon
> defunct? ISP address).
>
> Hope that makes sense - but your question is a Right (logically)
> correct one...
>
> I should have delimited that to: IS the USA (ATT) or Europe
> www.voynich.com / .de? .jp?
> or OTHER(s) out there "_THE_" "VOYNICH.LIST"
>
> and WHAT is ITs (THAT) address?
>
> If it is _only_ "ATT" I assume I WILL be on it in about 2-3 weeks from
> now, IS (are) there another list(s) you know of?
>
> Thanks for your reply & help
> -=se=-
> steve (HaPpY ThAnKsGiViNg there to all) ekwall
>
> p.s. ~Oddly~ there are only about -20+- people on MY LIST here.
> (one is my sister, (and SHE doesn't Count - ha.haaa))
> DO you know (rough) grand total out there? of/on the Voynich.LIST?
>
> thx again.
>
> p.s.s - I see YOU are also "research.ATT.com" ADD ME ~Please~??  thx
>
> ----------------------------------------
>  Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:43:35 -0500
>  From: Jim Reeds <reeds@research.att.com>
>  To: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
>  Cc: reeds@research.att.com
>  Subject: Re: VMS ~folding KEY 101~
>
>  Steve,
>
>  I'm a little puzzled by your comment
>
>  > p.s. someone mentioned a "voynich.list"  Is there such a group now?
>  > could you send me that ISP address?...
>
>  as you seem to have sent your email via the Voynich list.
>
> >-=se=->
> COOL, I seem to be _ON_ then - thanks
> I've EXPOSED the 'CC' header to THIS e.mail to hopeful explain how you
> might have recieved it (hopefully not in error), as compared to
> another existing LIST out there.  I will try to NOT EXPOSE the 'CC'
> area in the future, as I know it ~wastes Band-width~  (sorry all)
> <-=se=-<
>
>  To
>  join you should send a request to Jim Gillogly, jim@acm.org,
>  asking to be added.  Then you get copies of all email
>  sent to the VMS list, voynich@rand.org .
>
> >-=se=->
>  WoW : hummmm, so, "acm.org" = "ATT" = "rand.org" = VOYNICH_LIST!
> OK - I CAN handle this... (i hope (ha.haaa) I will resend another in
> 3-4 weeks if "rand.org?" doesn't appear in the e.mail box etc..
> AND I ASSUMED the FOLDING KEY WAS _EASY_ (ha.haaa) just Kidding..
> Thanks for your reply...
> <-=se=-<
>
>  --
>  Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
>  Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
>  180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA
>
>  reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178
>
>
> >-=se=->
> Finally, I think I'm making a business move forced by Dec 31st.. that
> will not bode well for winter DECODING by myself... (I think my page
> is DONE anyway (per ES) I won't be able to READ it anyway (sigh))<br>
> IF I get a chance, I will take one page at a time and put it up in
> MIRROR Image, (After the ES FOLDing etc..) and maybe ONE of the group
> can reconize ITS language strokes of the pen in REVERSE on one of
> these ..
>
> best to you & yours<br>
> -=se=-
> steve (the TOUCHED ONE (ha.haaa)) ekwall
> but hey (on the lighter side - just 1/12th) ha.haaa<p>
>
> take care ALL
>
> <-=se=-<

I could post of get a friend to post something inflammatory and that might
wake them. It has been quiet. But voynich@rand.org is the place to be. I
don't know if there are any others. Long ago self proclaimed shaman and
Wildman Terrence McKenna did something on it but nothing much came of it.
Rene is one of the contributors, and so are John Grove and others, and
soi-disant slavisists like me are too. You ask an interesting question as
to how many voynich groups are there. I mean there were interesting ideas
of having COLOR and IR images made but as the song goes: "We had so many
dreams and now they have faded out of view.".

Have Fun,
Sends Steve


From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Nov 24 13:23:43 2000
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Visit to Beinecke
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:29:34 +0200
X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan v2.0
Sender: jim@mail.rand.org
Status: OR

Dear All,

I visited the Beinecke library. Please find below a few 
notes I took, intertwined with comments from Rene and a 
short comment from a librarian that used to be a Beinecke.

My main conclusion is that it is imperative to get a very 
good copy of the VMs showing all the possible details. Some 
folios (i.e., folio 72) are all curled up and, in a while, 
it will be impossible to get a proper look at them. I used 
a 2x magnifying glass and allowed to see some details, but 
a high definition photography that would allow a 10x 
magnification and realistic colors would be ideal. In parts 
I used my Victorinox 8x loope and it proved very useful.

Rene said some time ago (Feb-99) that there is not too much 
time to see everything one wants, and that's true: I used 
about three hours to look at the VMs. and one and a half 
hours each for box E and box M, those that I thought were 
more likely to contain a letter with a reference to 
Georgius Barschius (Baresch). I took notes in my laptop and 
I include them below. I think that each one that goes could 
contribute a little and a proper catalog of the box 
contents would be necessary. Given the limited time, one 
could consider what I wrote below not as a proper catalog, 
but only as a 'contribution' to such a goal.

I include below some details on the VMs. (including notes 
about a 'missing' letter) and a quick catalog of the 
contents of boxes E and M.

Enjoy it.

Claudio





============================= VMS 
===============================

A few handwritten notes on the manuscript itself:

------------------------------------------------------------
-
At the back of the front cover (the cover that touches f1r 
when the Ms. is closed) it is hand-written in pencil:

[Near the top, on the right side of the page]
QUOTE
J 10,22
UNQUOTE


[Near the center, on the right side of the page]
QUOTE
/Bsafe
De Ricci Census of ????
Vol.II, 1846-7
UNQUOTE


The four exclamation marks correspond to something like 
a 'DAsc' but I'm not sure. The words 'Census', 'of' 
and '????' are underlined.

[From Rene:]
"-- Full quotations for 'Ruysschaert' and 'De Ricci' are on 
the references
page of my web site (www.voynich.nu)


[From Lisa Fagin Davis, UMCC. She received her Ph.D. in 
Medieval
Studies from Yale in 1993, where for 4 years was also 
employed as the
assistant to the curator of pre-1600 books and manuscripts 
at the Beinecke
(Robert G. Babcock).] 
QUOTE
I am quite familiar with the Voynich manuscript, having 
[seen it]
as a graduate student at Yale. The "deRicci" reference is 
to the 
S. deRicci "Census of Medieval and Renaissance Manuscripts 
in the United 
States and Canada", where the reference to this manuscript 
can be found in 
Volume II, pp. 1846-1847 (published in 1935). The Census 
was written when the 
manuscript was still owned by Voynich. The "safe" section 
that you quote 
refers to where the manuscript is shelved at the Beinecke 
Library.
UNQUOTE


============================================================
============

At the back of the back cover (the cover that touches f116v 
when the Ms. is closed) it is hand-written in pencil (the 
symbol [P] stands for the proof-correcting symbol 
for 'paragraph'):

QUOTE
[P] Some signatures at
    beginning and end
    resewn with Irish linen
    Hi??ad
[P] Vellum ? a Hached
    with leather thongs
    and Vellum guards
    added at beginning
    and end - ???/2, 1967
    HH              7484
UNQUOTE

where

  Hi??ad looks like 'Hiread' but it's not very clear
  ??? looks like three capital I's (Arial, which are 
      three vertical bars) with an horizontal bar at 
      the top of the three I's.
  7484 is underlined

[From Rene:]
"-- That's linen thread. Kraus apparently had part of the 
MS rebound.
I think the second ? could be 'case' but this is very hard 
to
read.  The next word is 'attached'. HH is probably HK (Hans 
Kraus)."

============================================================
============

The following are quick observations that are more to be 
discussed drinking a beer than to be published in an 
academic journal:

-- Incomplete and, at times, arbitrary coloring. Obvious. 
In some cases, the 'rays' of the stars are not fully 
colored and only a dot is placed in the center of the star. 
It looks it was more important to place a color rather than 
to color precisely up to the boundaries of the figures. At 
some stage one is tempted to think that the presence or 
absence of color would mean something (the colored stars in 
folios 103 to 116). In other folios, only some leaves of 
the plants are colored. Also look at the blues in f90v and 
the greens in f93v.

-- In general, there is an emphasis on symmetry: if one 
plant has 'x' leaves painted on the left, the same number 
of leaves will be painted on the right side of the plant.

-- Apparently, the figures were drawn first and the text 
was added later. AFTER this, the vellum was cut (folios 70 
to 80). There are many folios where the drawing proceeds 
right to the end of the folio (f89).

-- Folio 86 would look like a summary of something. A 
cosmological vision, or a summary of the contents of the 
Ms., or both?
[Rene says: "It strikes me that the composite 9-circle 
diagram also comes out to you as some kind of overview 
or synthesis. This is not too obvious when looking at 
the copyflo reproduction, but quite so when looking 
at the original. D'Imperio writes the same."]

-- Inks. Some are noticed very well (f84) but others are 
fading (f72/f73), particularly in the Astro section. One 
more reason to have a good reproduction.

-- Ink patterns. I have used ink before and the standard 
pattern in writing is that the writing becomes 
progressively lighter, and then one refills. If one writes 
from left to right one would see that a few characters 
become lighter and then, all of the sudden, a few very dark 
characters appear until the writing becomes lighter and the 
pattern 'from darker to lighter' repeats itself. Although 
this pattern can be seen, in a few places the characters 
are lighter at the RIGHT of the dark characters, which 
cannot be explained unless one considers retouching (or 
partial right-to-left writing which, given the few 
occurrences, I don't think is viable to assume). A detailed 
study of the light/dark pattern will indicate how the Ms. 
was produced: if copied or generated 'on-the-fly'. If it 
was copied, the pattern would tend to be repeated fairly 
regularly. Otherwise, the scribe would have to think before 
writing something, the ink would dry and would have 
to 'refill' at irregular intervals. This study would 
require a very good reproduction of the Ms. to be able to 
distinguish color changes in the ink. I just looked at the 
Yale reproductions and some of them show the colors rather 
well (http://inky.library.yale.edu/voy/Z3724836.jpg) but 
others are way off 
(http://inky.library.yale.edu/voy/Z3610590.jpg). 

-- One striking fact is that the colors of the folios, in 
reality, are always much lighter than those of the same 
folios shown on the Web (the Astro section probably being 
the lighter of them all).

-- f1. The three rows of symbols at the right of the folio 
are almost unnoticeable. It would have passed completely 
unnoticed would not have been by the notes that indicated 
that something was there. The chemicals that were applied 
to the folio didn't do any good to those symbols, 
particularly. After one sees the bottom and the right parts 
of f1r, one understands why non-destruction testing is a 
must. For that reason too, it would be extremely useful to 
include various types of lights when photographing 
(reproducing) the Ms., not just daylight. And to add a 
chart of colors (like one of those sent to the Mars 
expeditions to calibrate the colors).

-- There a few holes in some folios. In some cases they 
might come from worm-holes. In others, if the hole occurs 
only in one folio, if the folio is photographed without 
taking proper precautions (putting some vellum of the same 
color at the back), the photograph might show characters, 
colors or whatever is on the next folio. At one stage I was 
looking at a flower on a recto folio, when I saw an 
inscription in the center of the flower: It was not an 
inscription from the same folio, but characters from the 
folio below, also recto.

============================================================
=============

======= THE CASE OF THE MISSING LETTER =========
I followed a lead suggested by Rene, who said:

QUOTE
>> ... the copy of a message
>> from Prague about the inheritance by Marci of Baresch'
>> alchemical library. That could include information about 
Baresch,
>> in particular the date of his death.

It is described in Brumbaugh's book [who] wrote:

(start quote)
  In looking through cartons of material in the Beinecke 
Library,
  I came across what seems an unaddressed and undated 
carbon of 
  a translation of a note from Prague to Voynich. (Copies of
  translations of other letters from the Bohemian State 
Archives
  to Voynich, similarly undated and unaddressed, were in 
the same
  box.) This was apparently in response to an inquiry about 
the
  identity of the owner who had the manuscript between the 
death
  of de Tepenecz and its acquisition by Marci. This was the 
owner
  about whom Marci wrote, that he was determined to solve 
it. The
  note says that Marci probably inherited the manuscript 
from
  Georg Barschius, an alchemist, since ''Marci inherited 
Barschius'
  alchemical library.'' Since the Bohemian Archives proved 
right
  in every other piece of information supplied - for 
example, the
  identity of ''Dr Raphael'' - this is worth following up
(end quote)
QUOTE

On the topic of the 'missing' letter that Brumbaugh 
mentions in his book: I don't think such a letter ("a 
translation of a note from Prague") exists in the boxes. I 
think that what Brumbaugh did was reverse the position 
of 'Prague' and 'Voynich' in his statement, by mistake. If 
one thinks about it, why could Wilfred Voynich have a 
carbon of a letter written in Prague? It would be more 
natural to have a carbon of a copy that HE (Voynich) wrote 
TO somebody in Prague, not the other way around. Nobody is 
going to mail carbons. For clarification I put the dates 
below, and one can see that the following scenario makes 
sense:

March -1921 Mr. Khicman performs searches in Prague
Mar-16-1921 Mr. Khicman writes (or sends?) letter from 
Prague
Apr-11-1921 Letter received in NY
May-27-1921 Carbon of letter from Voynich to Prague,
            thanking for letter of Apr-11 and mentioning 
here about the
            inheritance of the "alchemical library of 
Georgius Barschius,
            some time after 1622". It says, in full, the 
following:
            "... I have come to the conclusion that Marci
            received it about 1644. Now I have no definite 
information but it is possible
            that Marci got the Ms. at the same time that he 
inherited the alchemical
            library of Georgius Barschius, some time after 
1622. I can find nothing here
            about Georgius Barschius. Perhaps Bohemian 
archives contain something about
            him and his connection with Marcus Marci and 
what connection, if any existed
            between Horcicky and Barschius."

           Voynich asks for more information about this 
topic, and no 
           response to this request is recorded (in boxes E 
and M, at least).

What it DOES exist, is the carbon of a letter (not a 
translation) from Voynich to Prague (not from Prague to 
Voynich), which I transcribe (most of it) below, in folder 
4 of box E. 
--------- END OF THE CASE OF THE MISSING LETTER ------------

======================= Attempt of a catalog of boxes E and 
M =====================
---- [Limited time is the main excuse for any inaccuracy/un-
cataloged material] ---

The first line after the 'Folder' line below is the title 
written already in the folder, not my interpretation of 
what's inside.


======================= Box E ==========================

Folder 1
Title: Ms Notes by Mr. Voynich in re. Roger Bacon and his 
paper on the history of the cipher Ms
-- The court of Rudolph II
-- Lots of handwritten notes (could they shed any light on 
Baresch/Barschius?)
-- One carbon on Roger bacon, extract from "Medieval 
Medicine" by JJ Walsh,
   A&C Black Ltd, 1920

. Rabbi Bezalel Loew in Prague


Folder 2
Title: not recorded
-- Picture where 'Jacobi ?? Tepenece' can be read
-- 6 or 7 Photographs of the 1st folio, chemically treated


Folder 3
Title: Translations of Marci's letter
. "Secreta Manuscrita Kircheriana (unfortunately they are 
destroyed)"


Folder 4
Title: not recorded
-- Jacobus Hocziczky de Tepenecz
-- Dr Raphael Sobehrd - Mnisovsky de Sebuzin et de Horstein 
(in French)

[Rene says:]
"I have photocopies of the French letters and used their 
contents 
at my web site. The signature of Voynich's Prague 
correspondent
would seem to read Klicman which has a slightly more Czech 
ring
to it than Khicman, but I wouldn't bet my life on it."


------------ Carbon of Voynich's letter --------------------
[Presumed to be from Voynich because it says "my MS." and 
because it makes reference to a letter addressed to 'him', 
and there is letter from the same dates addressed to 
Voynich.]

Letter from Voynich to Khicman, "Conseiller Ministeriel et 
Directeur des Archives D'Etat, Prague, Czechol Slovakia", 
dated May 27, 1921 (and sent on May 28, as evidenced 
by "Receipt for Registered Article"). The searches were 
done by Mr. Khicman in early March 1921, and the envelope 
that contained the documents was received in NY on April 
11, 1921. The letter from Mr. Khicman is written in French, 
and there are two documents in Latin  and two in French, 
all five documents inside a brown envelope.


After name and titles of recipient, Mr. Voynich says:

"Please accept my apology for delay in acknowledging your 
very kind letter of
March 16th. I feel under great obligation to you for 
sending me the information
about Horcicky and Raphael Missowski, and also for the 
trouble you took to send
me photographs of these men.

"I am glad to say that all the material which you sent to 
me arrived in time for
my paper before the College of Physicians, Philadelphia, in 
connection with the
history of a Roger Bacon MS. in cipher which I possess.

"You are quite right in supposing that the MS. is connected 
with Bohemian history
for to all practical purposes this remarkable MS. is 
preserved to the world
thanks to the keen interest in it manifested by several 
seventeenth century
Bohemian scholars.

"I pointed out in my lecture that my MS. came into the 
possession of Emperor
Rudolph II somewhere about 1584-1588 from John Dee, the man 
about whom Bohemian
historians have written so much. It then passed into the 
hands of Horcicky
after 1608, and he, as you will remember, placed his 
autograph in the MS. in
the form of Jacobus de Tepenecz. I then face a gap of about 
22 years in the
history of the MS. and I have hopes that also on this point 
you may be able
to help me. Horcicky died in 1622 and a letter attached to 
the MS. by Marcus
Marci, addressed to Athanasius Kircher, shows that Marci 
received the MS. from
a friend who had willed it to him. I have come to the 
conclusion that Marci
received it about 1644. Now I have no definite information 
but it is possible
that Marci got the MS. at the same time that he inherited 
the alchemical
library of Georgius Barschius, some time after 1622. I can 
find nothing here
about Georgius Barschius. Perhaps Bohemian archives contain 
something about
him and his connection with Marcus Marci and what 
connection, if any existed
between Horcicky and Barschius.

"In 1665 (or 1666) (the date of the letter attached to my 
MS. is a little
obscure) Marcus Marci gave this MS. to Kircher. The letter 
of Marci in my MS.
gives this information. So you see for over one hundred 
years this MS. was in
Bohemia in the hands of very prominent people.

"... I have seen notices that there exists in the archives 
of Bohemia a
catalogue of the collection of Emperor Rudolph's Museum 
1601. I wonder if this
is true and if in this catalogue is enumerated a mysterious 
MS. in cipher with
illustrations of planets, astrological diagrams, etc. and 
perhaps attributed
to Roger Bacon.

"I see in biographies reference to the fact that Horcicky 
left his property
to the Jesuits at Prague. I wonder if this property 
included his library and if
this library was disbursed or given away by him when he was 
expelled from
Bohemia en 1619. Perhaps research in that direction will 
reveal to whom he
gave my MS."

[Two more paragraphs referring to the future work and his 
conference to be
delivered April 20-21 in PA, and an article that "just 
appeared in Hearst's
Magazine for June".]

"Yours sincerely, "

---------------- End of carbon of Voynich's letter ---------
-------

======== Comments from Rene about this letter ============
Voynich made his 'famous' presentation in Philadelphia,
together with Newbold and McClung, on 20 April 1921!!"

"I have a copy of the letter Voynich is responding to (it 
matches his
response) and this letter does not mention Baresch."

Where is Baresch' inheritance coming from???
'After 1622' is simply after Tepenec' death. We have a 
letter from
Baresch dated 1639, and Marci mentions him being alive also 
in 1640...

I can only guess that somewhere in one of the B boxes there 
could be a
letter from Prague which names this man (but does not give 
the date of his
death).

Around the time of WW II, a complete catalogue [of the 
collection 
of Emperor Rudolph's Museum 1601] was found in 
Liechtenstein, 
and this does not mention the Voynich MS.

I'm intrigued by what you found - where would Voynich have 
gotten
Baresch's name from? Did he perhaps see the Kircher 
correspondence in
Rome after all? Or did he hear it from the Mondragone 
Jesuits?
Voynich did not use Baresch' name in his presentation in 
Philadelphia,
which is mildly suspicious. I'm not seeing specters. 
Voynich was 
deliberately inaccurate about various other things because 
he
promised the Jesuits not to betray their secret trade. This 
could
just be another case.

======== End of Rene's comments ==========================

>From ARCHIV MINSTERSTVA VNITRA
Praha 158 - III. Valdstynska 16.
Nobilitatio
Rudolphus

Sotheby's catalogue 1928


Folder 5
Title: John Dee
-- Mathematical Preface


Folder 6
Title: Thorndike's Notes (90 pages)
(In the cover says: 'can be destroyed')


Folder 7
Title: Plant drawing identifications by E.L.V.
+1 verso: AAtrope Belladonna
6v: Castor Oil Plant
The Greek herbal of Dioscorides (pamphlet)


Folder 8
Title: not recorded (isn't it 'Roger Bacon'?)
Roger Bacon, The Times Literary Supplement, Oct-02-1930
Photos from a Ms. in cipher (?)
Letter to Prof. Petersen Theodore, St. Paul's College from 
the Vatican
Invoice from Biblioteca Apostolica Romana, Reparto 
Fotografico


Folder 9
Ciphers
-- Tablets antedating Homer Deciphered (Apr-09-1954)
-- A Minoan script ...

Folder 10
Collation - Various notes and versions

======================= Box M ==========================

Contains three pieces: one letter with attachments (partly 
summarized or transcribed below), one bunch of notes 
(transcription) of part of the VMs (some 300 pages), and a 
set of notes on electricity, Osiris, other Egyptian gods 
and a conglomerate of theories along the same vein (about 
400 pages).

[Beinecke's catalog says: Miscellaneous correspondence 
between R. Brumbaugh and J.M. Saul (Paris) and J. Arnold 
(Oak Grove, Mo.). Handwritten transcription of ff.89v-116r 
by R. Brumbaugh.]


----
This is what Brumbaugh succinctly wrote of the contents of 
some of the material in this box:
'This combines lunacy and blasphemy - Another for the file -
 B'
---- 
Letter from Brumbaugh to Yale submitting some material, 
including a letter by John M. Saul.

--------------- Letter from John M. Saul begins ------------
------
Extract of Letter by John M. Saul, Ph.D.
Oryx, 3 rue Bourdaloue 75009 Paris, Tel 2805820
dated Oct-22-1981

[Says that Dee knew things and wouldn't repeat over and 
over the same thing.]
[Makes some comments about Brumbaugh's interpretations or 
writings?]

"...

Things that John Dee might have known:

"Hypothesis I: A Christian Secret, some clearer information 
about the events
recounted in the New Testament, perhaps. This is not out of 
the question.
Giordano Bruno, gagged with a metal mouthpiece and burned 
in 1600, had earlier
claimed to know more than the Apostles (Frances Yates' 
Giordano Bruno and the
Hermetic Tradition, 1964, Ch. XIX, p. 340 of the Routledge 
and Kegan Paul
paperback edition). Let me mention a "worst cases" (from 
the Church's point of
view) about which a well researched book, Holy Blood, Holy 
Grail (Jonathan Cape,
London, early 1982; see enclosure C) is about to appear: 
that Jesus was married
and had given rise to a family line which to this day 
maintains knowledge of the
historical origins of Christianity.

"Hypothesis II: A royal Secret. Dee had made much of the 
Hapsburgs. In fact he
seems to have considered them as something akin to deities. 
The Hapsburgs by
tradition, and perhaps by blood, traced their origins back 
to the M... and
the Salik (sic) Franks whose own origins appear more and 
more bizarre, the more you
probe (see enclosure A or A.J. Zuckerman's "A Jewish 
Princedom
in Feudal France, 768-900", Columbia University Press, 
1972). The tale of the Frog
residing on a lily deep in the forest and who is really a 
Prince is originally a
royal Merovingian story informing that the True King or Roi 
Perdu was what we
would now call "underground"; Frenchmen are not 
called "Frogs" on account of their
diets. So who are the Merovingians? We do not know, but 
their law, the Salic
Law, holds some extraordinary surprises. One article 
(enclosure B), which I
urge you to puzzle over, begins:

"The mere mention of the possibility that Jewish law 
influenced
the development of Frankish legal institutions is likely to 
cause
both Germanists and Hebrew scholars alike to raise their 
eyebrows.
However the writer will present the evidence and let it 
speak for
itself."

"These considerations lead, via the Sangreal, to the Elixir 
Vitae, ...
..

"I'm completing a scholarly book about a royal bloodline 
which shows us under
diverse code names in tradition, folklore and many other 
places too. This is
the Royal Blood(line) Sangreal, Sang Real, the "Grail". 
Sometime later this
winter I will be looking for a prestigious publisher. [He 
asks then to Dr. Brumbaugh
if he knows if Yale would be interested in publishing his 
book.]"
----------- End of Dr. Saul's letter -----------

Comment: Salic law is a rule of succession in some noble 
families of Europe forbidding the succession by females or 
those descended in the female line to titles or offices 
(www.encyclopedia.com/articles/11370.html).


======== End of details concerning boxes ===========


--
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 25 18:47:08 2000
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Visit to Beinecke
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> 	Should be good for those interested in the Holy Blood,
> Holy Grail 
> theory.  Personally I think that someone should use
> ground-penetrating radar
> to see if the secret chamber is really there...

I've a book here on my desk titled _The Lost Treasure of the Knights
Templar_ by Steven Sora, which expounds an elaborate theory involving just
about every conspiracy you've ever heard of, including all the stuff in
_Holy Blood, Holy Grail_, and eventually meandering to the conclusion that
the geneaology of Jesus is buried in the "Money Pit" on Oak Island, Nova
Scotia.  The VMS isn't mentioned, but I assume that that's a mere oversight.

Matthew Skala
mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                   :CVECAT DELENDA EST
http://www.islandnet.com/~mskala/

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 25 19:43:37 2000
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Subject: Re: Visit to Beinecke
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0011251431110.1429-100000@diamond.ansuz.sooke.bc.ca> from "mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca" at "Nov 25, 2000 02:35:37 pm"
To: mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca
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Cc: ixohoxi@micro-net.com (Dennis), voynich@rand.org
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mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> > 	Should be good for those interested in the Holy Blood,
> > Holy Grail 
> > theory.  Personally I think that someone should use
> > ground-penetrating radar
> > to see if the secret chamber is really there...
> 
> I've a book here on my desk titled _The Lost Treasure of the Knights
> Templar_ by Steven Sora, which expounds an elaborate theory involving just
> about every conspiracy you've ever heard of, including all the stuff in
> _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_, and eventually meandering to the conclusion that
> the geneaology of Jesus is buried in the "Money Pit" on Oak Island, Nova
> Scotia.  The VMS isn't mentioned, but I assume that that's a mere oversight.

Damn! I was wondering when someone was going to connect Oak Island with the
Voynich. :)

-Adams

-- 
====================================================
Adams Douglas, San Diego, CA   Adams@Douglas.net
http://Adams.Douglas.net/
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     "I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking 
      about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; 
      but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in 
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                              - William Thomson (Lord Kelvin)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 25 19:46:04 2000
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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:47:17 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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Dennis wrote:

>         Seriously, I think that Jesus' frequent denunciations
> of the rich
> rules out the idea that he was a nobleman of the line
> of David.

Not necessarily. Think of Tolstoy. He did not came from
an impoverished family. And, closer to our days, what
was her name -- Patty Hearst? --  who joined that
nihilistic outfit, the Symbionese Army.

>         Are you listening, Frogguy?  Are you really a prince
> in secret?

Absolutely, "Guy" comes from Latin vitus "mistletoe". Mistletoe,
druids, Merlin, Arthur, holy grail... obvious. "Jacques"  is
all about Santiago de Compostela, the coquille St Jacques,
and that takes us even further back, to our ancestors who
were clams --  as Scientology teaches us. Verily, my lineage
goes some way back!

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Nov 25 20:07:41 2000
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Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> >         Seriously, I think that Jesus' frequent denunciations
> > of the rich
> > rules out the idea that he was a nobleman of the line
> > of David.
> 
> Not necessarily. Think of Tolstoy. He did not came from
> an impoverished family. And, closer to our days, what
> was her name -- Patty Hearst? --  who joined that
> nihilistic outfit, the Symbionese Army.

	Good point!  Plenty of spoiled rich kids do such
things.

	As I recall, the Oak Island Money Pit was built by the
French, although no one knows why.  I suppose that
French archives would be of no more help than they were
with the Man in the Iron Mask, although the great
late-19th-century French crippie tienne Bazeries
managed to pry a little info from them.  <Sigh> And I
even thought that he had given me the key to the VMs,
fool that I am.

> >         Are you listening, Frogguy?  Are you really a prince
> > in secret?
> 
> Absolutely, "Guy" comes from Latin vitus "mistletoe". Mistletoe,
> druids, Merlin, Arthur, holy grail... obvious. "Jacques"  is
> all about Santiago de Compostela, the coquille St Jacques,
> and that takes us even further back, to our ancestors who
> were clams --  as Scientology teaches us. Verily, my lineage
> goes some way back!

	Ah, O Nobly Born, couldst thou enlighten us concerning
the two deep and dark mysteries hereinabove mentioned?

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Nov 26 11:39:17 2000
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    > [jacques:] Absolutely, "Guy" comes from Latin vitus "mistletoe".
    > Mistletoe, druids, Merlin, Arthur, holy grail... obvious.
    > "Jacques" is all about Santiago de Compostela, the coquille St
    > Jacques, and that takes us even further back, to our ancestors
    > who were clams -- as Scientology teaches us. Verily, my lineage
    > goes some way back!

Well, I don't even know where my great-grandfathers lived, or what
my family name means.(*)  But here is a little exercise you may enjoy:

Let's assume (conservatively) that the average human generation gap is
30 years.  So 30 years ago the average person had at least 2 living
ancestors, 60 years ago he had at least 4, 90 years ago at least 8,
and so forth. Now estimate (a) the number of living ancestors you had
by A.D. 1000; and (b) the probability that you and I are triply cousins
through Cleopatra,  King Arthur, and Empress Yamato of Japan.

All the best,

--stolfi 8-)

(*) "Stolfi" is almost surely germanic "Stolf" + Italian plural "-i",
and the original surname does seem to occur in Austria, just across
the Alps from the Veneto region where my parents lived. My son found
the other day a page in German about historical towns which seems to
say that "Stolf" once meant "See" (= a town where a Bishop "sits");
does that make sense? On the other hand, one of the knights in
"Orlando Furioso" (written ca. ~1600) is called Astolfo, and there are
several Astolfi right here in Campinas. Who knows...

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Nov 27 15:47:53 2000
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:44:22 +0000
From: Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>
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Dear all,

apologies for joining in the recent spree of off-topic E-mails, but does
anyone
know the answer to any of the following three questions:

1) On which day in December 1608 did John Dee die?
2) Do we know that we don't know the answer to question 1?
3) Do you know anyone else (i.e. not on this list) who knows the answer
     to question 1 or 2?

Thanks, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Nov 27 16:08:10 2000
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In-Reply-To: Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>
        "Three questions about John Dee" (Nov 27, 20:44)
References: <3A22C7A6.DF0E096C@voynich.nu>
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According to "John Dee's Conversations with Angels"
by D. E. Harkness, Cambridge U. Press,  1999, p/217:

"Even the date of his death is now unclear.  While scholars
have traditionally dated it as December 1608, Julian Roberts
and Andrew Watson have supplied persuasive marginalia to
support a later date of 26 March 1609".

She cites Roberts and Watson, p.60, which I have not seen.


On Nov 27, 20:44, Rene Zandbergen asked:


> 1) On which day in December 1608 did John Dee die?
> 2) Do we know that we don't know the answer to question 1?
> 3) Do you know anyone else (i.e. not on this list) who knows the answer
>      to question 1 or 2?


-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Mon Nov 27 06:30:24 2000
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:46:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Fw: VMS ~folding KEY 101~ CC (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 05:18:26 -0000
From: steve <ekwall2@diac.com>
To: ekwall2@tfn.net
Subject: Fw: VMS ~folding KEY 101~ CC


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
To: rene@voynich.nu <rene@voynich.nu>
Cc: jim@acm.org <jim@acm.org>
Date: Thursday, November 23, 2000 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: VMS ~folding KEY 101~


>
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:44:17 +0100
> From: Rene Zandbergen <Zandbergen@t-online.de>
> Reply-To: rene@voynich.nu
> To: ekwall2@diac.com
> Cc: jim@acm.org
> Subject: Re: VMS ~folding KEY 101~
> 
> Hi!
> 
> you wrote:
> 
> >  No, actually I have a personal list here of any address I could FIND
> > on the net of those that have :voynich *.*: 
> 
> One of these is voynich@rand.org, and that is the mailing list. Feel
> free to send your Voynich-related mail there and we'll all get it.
><snip>......... most..........<snip>.....
> Best wishes, Rene
> 
> 
>------------------------------
>Hi Rene, (smiles)
>
>  Thanks for the reply, YOURS was the most curious as "ES" this
>hopefully (once in a life time encounter) "excitant ~spirit~" showed
>me YOUR home page 1st!, then OFF to another page And more so - on & 
>on & on.... TO THIS DATE, I
>still haven't found what I call the *YES* I can ~see~ it here (page 1)
>and the *YES* I can ~see~ it here page 2 (someones page that has just
>a paragraph (snip) of VMS that ES said - SEE how ~simple it IS?~ to
>read...  
> 

>--=se=->
The 1st had an Upside? sunflower (female ovary) The "buldge of the
seeds ~facing downwardly~". IT WAS The left UPPER
SIDE of THAT #1 page for sure (i don't know about the Right side, as I
haven't seen it since, THE IMPORTANT THING is the little human figure 
sticking its body out (left side of the lower sunflower (ovary) and
"waving, hello world" here I come!. THIS "ES" said was the "LIFE.STAR
emerging" (is anyone familar with this page?)

The 2nd was someones home page (one my initial mailing list) see
archives?, that have just one graphic (paragraph of the ~script~) in
these few lines, I was shown - the C_C_C cuttings, the 8am\\ splice
BACK and the c_C ~folding~ Key ..... (does anyone have just a page
with
only one random parapragh of VMS (graphically) inserted? (abour 3/4
of the way down the page? I search in 
ascii only (usually) and was told by ES that this was #2 (and simple) 
(so I HAD to "view it" to see what ES was talking about - literally) 

lastly... (after many conformation pages of ":see - see - understand? 
and me saying yes, YES - I get IT already, leave me alone already:"

I was ~left~ to study the wealth of graphics at the YALE library.. 
the supposed holder of the original book (2-3 hours of clicking - well
of course and YES and Yes & yes.. "ES" had long departed.

Again, I had never heard of or even seen ANYTHING related to the VMS
PRIOR to this... additionally I 'm sure I was chosen for reason beyond
my academic factors.... So as another clue - IF i can decode it, I
would ASSUME it is NOT WRITTEN IN ENGLISH .. Additionally The pictures
on the pages seem to relate to the TEXT of THAT page - LESS - the
folding, (does the VMS use like a 'playboy' Center FOLDING type of
thing? ES finally said "I
will not be able to READ IT" only DECODE IT! ... That was more
shocking to my intellect
then the fact I was given a KEY to the VMS.. How this key FITS I still
haven't a CLUE (but will let you know if I stumble on something more).
<-=se=-<

>I reclused to not contaminate (my thoughts) since October release any
>"ES 
>feeling that I had", but tried only to faithfully ~describe~ in ASCII
>and (minimal) graphic's capabilites I have here ... <p>
>
>oddly, "ES" left me in the wonderland of the archives @ yale
>univeristy to sya just YES Yes yes to about Every Picture I could
>click on... THIS time consuming ~delightful~ adventure - left me 
>~cursed~ to tell all to those I don't even know (the world). 
>
>I must once again ~applaud~ your responce to my ~wierd~ endeavor to
>tackle something (I KNOW I HAVEN'T A CLUE as to WHAT IT IS ABOUT)..
>
>YOU _ALL_ are w_a_Y over my head here academically, ? and I have
>stated on myhome page that I have NEVER even known nor heard of this
>odd ~situation~ SCRIPT!!  (AND I was TOLD (per ES) .. when I could
>"DECODE TI" (err IT) that I ~personally~ would _NOT_ beable t READ IT
>!!
>
>That is a ~heavy.burden~ for ~continue(ing)~ in my eyes for a prize! 
>
>that is .. to not know the GOAL, NOT know the language... but _clues_ 
>of which I'm only one of 12 !!!   ARGgGGgggGgggg  (this is nutty 2me!)
>
>was I chosen (for my LACK of linguistic skills AND my perpitual curse
>to invent (transpose) the simple(ist) of text???  ARGGgggggggg
>
>"ES" left me alone @ the YALE archive that night, and by the time I
>might have even had a question or two (which NOW I have THOUSANDS!),
>made MYESLF question My Own sanity.... ARggGgggggg
>
>I will _NOT_ attempt to conjure up "ES" (personally I don't THINK that
>is possible in the 1st _nor less the 2nd place_) .. but IF "ES" is to
>REcontact ME ( be assured ), I will let ALL KNOW.
>
>Thank you for your Kind Words of "my pages ~being ORIGINAL~"  ha.haa
>Frankly MY DEAR, I would have had THAT page -=Committed=- myself!!
>
>_The Truth_ they say is said, _IS_ stranger than fiction?
>
>
>With your ~Blessing~ I will READD your name to this meager list I have
>just started to keep you advised... I intend (and hopefully) won't be
>a bother... for there seems to be at least 11 others out there (per
>ES) 
>
>
>AGAIN, YOUR PAGE _was_ number #1 that "ES" showed me then (this page,
>then THAT page, then This... Then THAT, then here, then There ARgGggg 
>
>I'm ~feeling~ you too may be one of the 12? 
>
>if _not_ have a good Thanksgiving anyway
>Best to you and yours there...
>Thanks for your Reply.
>
>-=se=-
>steve (THIS _IS_ Weird to me too!) ekwall
>
>p.s. no I don't use a spell checker (can't make one work with UNIX -
>pine -) - but I know I made a few mistakes (above) these were LEFT
>intentinally ~as they~ the feeling(s) - flowed from my finger tips
>etc..
>
>p.s.s.  feel free to send this, archive this, or tell the world this.
>        "I" hold back _NO_ secrets 
>         known to me...  
>         (never have, never WILL !!)
>
>
>Take care 
>-=se=-
>
>p.s.s.s. I have just started to LOOK at what's available on search
>engines on the web ... and even I myself think "How the HELL does THIS
>FOLDING have anything do do with THAT !"  Looks lame to me (myself) I
>will continue to try and put 2 + 2 together...
>
>HOW about just (an _easy_) / ~Nice Game of CHESS?~  (sigh)
>

Best to you & yours
-=se=-


From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Nov 28 00:18:48 2000
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:19:04 -0500
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Daniel Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Saint John's Bible
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http://www.saintjohnsbible.org/

Anything we might be able to learn from this?

Yrs.,


Daniel Harms     dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu
The Internet:  Learn what you know.  Share what you don't.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Nov 28 23:07:07 2000
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:06:36 -0500
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Daniel Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: (OT) Herb identification
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All,

Pardon the post, but I'm coming to the end of a revision, and I wanted to
check something.

If you've heard of either of these herbs in pre-20th century sources, please
let me know:

Olieribos
Aglaophotis (or Aglaophtis)

Thanks!

Yrs.,


Daniel Harms     dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu
The Internet:  Learn what you know.  Share what you don't.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Nov 29 04:38:01 2000
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From: Mark Parry <MParry@mertec.co.uk>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: RE: Three questions about John Dee
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:32:25 -0000
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Status: OR

	[Mark Parry]  All my books, with the exception of one, support a
1608 date although none of them are more specific.

	"The Diaries of John Dee" Edward Fenton give a dates of 26 Feb 1609.

	Mark

	 
> According to "John Dee's Conversations with Angels"
> by D. E. Harkness, Cambridge U. Press,  1999, p/217:
> 
> "Even the date of his death is now unclear.  While scholars
> have traditionally dated it as December 1608, Julian Roberts
> and Andrew Watson have supplied persuasive marginalia to
> support a later date of 26 March 1609".
> 
> She cites Roberts and Watson, p.60, which I have not seen.
> 
> 
> On Nov 27, 20:44, Rene Zandbergen asked:
> 
> 
> > 1) On which day in December 1608 did John Dee die?
> > 2) Do we know that we don't know the answer to question 1?
> > 3) Do you know anyone else (i.e. not on this list) who knows the answer
> >      to question 1 or 2?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
> Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
> 180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA
> 
> reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From reeds Wed Nov 29 11:37:42 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
Message-Id: <1001129113742.ZM19850143@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:37:42 -0500
In-Reply-To: Daniel Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
        "(OT) Herb identification" (Nov 28, 23:06)
References: <3.0.5.32.20001128230636.0091b720@pop.acsu.buffalo.edu>
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: (OT) Herb identification
Cc: Daniel Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
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On Nov 28, 23:06, Daniel Harms wrote:

> If you've heard of either of these herbs in pre-20th century sources, please
> let me know:
> 
> Olieribos
> Aglaophotis (or Aglaophtis)

which I passed on to my favorite historian of botany.  She
replies:



On Nov 29,  9:17, Karen Reeds wrote:

> Subject: Re: (Fwd) (OT) Herb identification
> Jim-- I replied to Harms question earlier (July 15, 1999) about Olieribos.
> 
>  I don't recognize Aglaophotis as the name of a plant, but it looks like a
> reasonable Greek compound word that could be translated as
> "shining/glorious light." One could easily imagine such a name being
> applied to a bright-colored flower (cf. daisy = day's eye).
> 
> Note that many pre-Linnaean herbals recorded the synonyms of plant names in
> many languages--but don't index them.  See, e.g. R. L. Gunther's
> exasperating edition, The Greek Herbal of Dioscorides, Illustrated by a
> Byzantine A.D. 512, Englished by John Goodyer A.D. 1655, Edited and First
> Printed A.D. 1933  (London and NY: Hafner Publishing Company,
> 1968[facsimile of 1934 edition]). I'm not going to look through every page
> for these 2 names, but Harms might think it worth the effort. He'll
> certainly encounter a lot of old plant names that way.
> 
> Karen   11/29/2000

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

