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From: "Robert Firth" <robertjf@iss.nus.edu.sg>
To: voynich@rand.org
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:18:27 +0800
Subject: Re: Another language candidate for the VMS
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Hi Folks

Anyone else seen the movie Krippendorf's Tribe?

Not much relevance to Voynich, but does remind
us how much fakery might be going on with all these
Lost Tribes and Unknown Languages.  I confess
the lead character did remind me a little of our
Mr Guy.

On a more closely related topic - I've recently read
a couple of books that insisted Dee's Enochian is
a real language.  And since one of them was
decidedly unflakey, I thought I'd ask for opinions
and maybe references.

Life goes on.  Made it to Peru last December and
did some work on the Phaistos Disc.  Won't manage
Easter Island this year, maybe next...

Happy Winter Solstice Holiday and looking forward
to the real new millennium...

Robert Firth


From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Dec  5 11:35:07 2000
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From: "R. Brzustowicz" <brz@u.washington.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Another language candidate for the VMS
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> On a more closely related topic - I've recently read
> a couple of books that insisted Dee's Enochian is
> a real language.  And since one of them was
> decidedly unflakey, I thought I'd ask for opinions
> and maybe references.

Which books were you reading?  

Richard B

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec  9 18:45:52 2000
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Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 17:44:48 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Robert Firth wrote:
> 
> On a more closely related topic - I've recently read
> a couple of books that insisted Dee's Enochian is
> a real language.  And since one of them was
> decidedly unflakey, I thought I'd ask for opinions
> and maybe references.

	What "a real language" is depends on definition. 
Pidgin languages are very limited in expressive power
compared to what we call "natural languages", yet they
serve their purpose.

	In working on Hamptonese, I coined some new terms. 
"Neoglossy" is producing a new language in an altered
state of consciousness, and a "neoglossa" is such a new
language.  The only fully documented case of neoglossia
of which I am aware is Helene Smith's Martian.  

	It seems to me that Kelly was not someone who could
have sat down at a table, formulated a grammar for
Enochian, listed a lexicon for it on the basis of
Latin, Greek, and Hebrew roots, and then used it at
will.  It seems more likely that Enochian was a
neoglossa.

	I do not know what sort of grammar Enochian has.  It
might be no more than a pidgin.  Someone else will have
to answer that.  

> Life goes on.  Made it to Peru last December and
> did some work on the Phaistos Disc. 

	I'd be most interested in what you've found on the
Phaistos Disk.

> Happy Winter Solstice Holiday and looking forward
> to the real new millennium...

	And a happy Chanukah and Kwanzaa to you too!

Dennis


> 
> Robert Firth

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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: 8200 Voynichese Words
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    > 	Hello, Jorge!  I need your help.  I'm still trying to
    > make sense of this;
    > 
    > >         I'm still trying to make sense of the 8200 words in
    > > the VMs.  Robert Firth's paradigm accounts for ~80% of
    > > the tokens.  This 80% is about 280 words.  But that
    > > leaves ~7900 words that the paradigm doesn't account
    > > for. 
    > >         Also - in Hamptonese I saw words that were obviously
    > > the same but the spelling differed.  Could we seeing
    > > this in the VMs.
    > 
    > 	Suppose the 8200-word dictionary was caused by:
    > 
    > 1) A lax orthography, as most orthographies of the time
    > were, and
    > 
    > 2)  the majority of the tokens are one syllable, but
    > some are two or three syllables, not necessarily from
    > the same word.  
    > 
    > 	Do you have any info that would enlighten these
    > possibilities?

Well, those are basically the main straws the Chinese Theory is
desperately clinging to...

A while ago I posted a proposal for counting Voynichese words in a way
that would take into account those possible sources of polymorphism,
plus a few others:

    >    1. discard all tokens with "weirdos", defined as characters that
    >       occur less than, say, 5 times in the whole manuscript.
    >       (Those are postulated to be abbreviations, special symbols,
    >       os slips of the pen.)
    > 
    >    2. Discard all line-initial words. (Those are likely to be 
    >       "Grove-isms" --- words with a spurious prefixed letter. 
    >       Also, there is the suspicion that line-initial <o>s 
    >       often got written as <y>.)
    > 
    >    3. Discard all line-final words, and words right before 
    >       breaks caused by intruding figures. (Those are likely
    >       to be abbreviated, a suspicion supported by the 
    >       apparent excess of <m> and <g> in those positions.)
    > 
    >    4. Discard all tokens that fail the crust-mantle-core paradigm:
    >       i.e that have two or more gallows, or two gallows/benches
    >       separated by a dealer { d l r s x j } or final { m n g }.  
    >       (Those are postulated to be word pairs that were joined,
    >       accidentally or on purpose.)
    > 
    >    5. Discard all tokens that have an embedded <y>, or an embedded
    >       final letter { m n g }.  (Those are assumed to be joined words too.)
    > 
    >    6. If a token has two discrepant readings, flip a coin to decide
    >       whether to discard it or not. (If we keep either reading, we have
    >       very roughly 50% chance of choosing the wrong one and counting one
    >       extra bogus word. If we discard the token, we have very roughly
    >       50% chance of missing only instance of that word. So by flipping a
    >       coin we are roughly balancing the two biases. It is left as an
    >       exercise to the reader to figure out the right policy when there
    >       are K divergent readings, or when they disagree on a word break.
    >       Extra points for taking into account the word distribution,
    >       so that if the two readings are <daiin> and <jeeeeb>, we take
    >       the <daiin>.)
    > 
    >    7. Erase all occurrences of the letter <q>. (Since  it does 
    >       not occur in labels, we can assume that it is not part 
    >       of the word -- perhaps an article, a symbol for "and", etc.)
    > 
    >    8. Map all occurrences of <p> to <t>, and <f> to <k>. 
    >       (Since { p f } occur almost exclusively in paragraph-initial
    >       lines, we can assume that they are capitalized version of other
    >       letters; from their context, the latter seem to be <t> and <k>, or
    >       perhaps <te> and <ke>.)
    > 
    >    9. Look for unusual letters and n-grams that are graphically similar to 
    >       common ones, and map them to the latter: <j> -> <d>, <se> -> <sh>, 
    >       <ith> -> <cth>, <ei> -> <a>, <ak> -> <ok>, etc. (As Bayes would 
    >       argue, these are more likely to be slips of the pen than rare
    >       but legitimate combinations.)
    > 
    >   10. Look for maximal sequences of <e>s, and handle them as follows:
    >       <e> - leave it alone; <ee> - map it to <ch>; <eee> - flip a coin,
    >       heads discard the token, tails replace by <ech> or <che> at
    >       random; <eeee> - discard the token. (Syntactically, <ee> behaves
    >       pretty much like <ch>, and therefore we can assume that it is a
    >       <ch> whose ligature got omitted. Under that assumption, <eee> has
    >       two possible parsings, and thus should be treated as a token with
    >       two readings, as discussed above. The group <eeee> is so rare that
    >       it is not worth bothering about.)
    > 
    >   11. Delete all occurrences of { a o }. (Those are suspected of being 
    >       tone or pitch marks, although that is admittedly only a hunch.
    >       Pitch/tone marks are likely to be inserted in varying places, and
    >       often omitted, thus giving rise to several homonyms for the same
    >       syllable. There are hints that <y> may belong to that class too,
    >       but in other ways it seems to be a final letter, in the same class
    >       as <aiin> etc.)
    > 
    >   12. Split off the crust prefixes, i.e. any dealers { d l r s } that 
    >       occur before a gallows or bench letter: <rchedy> -> <r> + <chedy>,
    >       <lkeedy> -> <l> + <keedy>, etc. (If the dealers are vowels
    >       while the gallows/benches are consonants, as assumed in the
    >       simplest variant of the Chinese theory, then those prefixed
    >       dealers must be consonant-less syllables that the author chose to
    >       attach to the following syllable.)
    >     
    > The number of distinct words that remain after this filtering
    > should be compared to the number of distinct syllables in 
    > the candidate language, tone marks omitted. 

If no one is willing to do this analysis, I plan to do it after
the school semester is over. (Due to past strikes, that means sometime
in february 2001...). 

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 10 06:58:26 2000
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From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Another language candidate for the VMS
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Dennis wrote:

> It seems to me that Kelly was not someone who
> could have sat down at a table, formulated a grammar
> for Enochian, listed a lexicon for it on the basis
> of Latin, Greek, and Hebrew roots, and then used it
> at will.

Kelly must have been a very clever person, and there
is reason to believe he even had rather unusual mental
capabilities, in the way he generated the angelic
texts
by naming coordinates in tables. We should not
underestimate him.

At the same time, to the best of my knowledge, Kelly
did not speak or understand Hebrew. If only I
remembered where I read that.

Cheers, Rene



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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:52:09 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
>     >   Suppose the 8200-word dictionary was caused by:
>     >
>     > 1) A lax orthography, as most orthographies of the time
>     > were, and
>     >
>     > 2)  the majority of the tokens are one syllable, but
>     > some are two or three syllables, not necessarily from
>     > the same word.
>     >
>     >   Do you have any info that would enlighten these
>     > possibilities?
> 
> Well, those are basically the main straws the Chinese Theory is
> desperately clinging to...

	And the syllabic hypothesis in general.  On Sept. 27,
2000:

> Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> > Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> 
> >  On the other hand, the KMC structure is not unlike the structure of
> > > single *syllables* in Latin and other natural languages. Syllable
> > > boundaries are partly a matter of convention; but, off of my head, I
> > > would guess that the Latin syllable can be said to have the general
> > > structure SCRVVN where all letters are optional except for one V; and
> > > S, R, and N are specific subsets of the consonnats:
> > >
> > >   in prin ci pio cre a vit de us cae lum et te rram
> > >   te rra au tem e rat i na nis et va cu a et te ne brae
> > >   su per fa ci em a by ssi ...
> > >
> > Look, I know  Latin, I know Chinese. The pattern you have uncovered
> > looks
> > strikingly like Chinese. Latin? Let  me scratch my head.  Scratch...
> > scratch...
> > scratch... scratch... er.... scratch... scratch... please don't wait
> > for me.

	Yep.  

> If no one is willing to do this analysis, I plan to do it after
> the school semester is over. (Due to past strikes, that means sometime
> in february 2001...).

	It sounds good to me!  I look forward to seeing your
results.  I doubt that I'll have the time to do it, nor
the expertise.  You're our champion number-cruncher!

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Dec 12 16:08:22 2000
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Hi,
My name is Jim Finn and I was told by Mr Landini that the best place to get 
answers to questions would be here.
I, like everyone else i guess, am working on a translation of the text. I 
have the first seven lines of page one, <f1r.P1.1;H>-<f1r.P2.7;H> 
translated according to what I know about the ancients.  I am not ready to 
make a big deal out of this yet and simply have a question.  There is a 
word in <f1r.P1.4;H>,  cth*ar.  Now the * is a mark for something 
undecipherable in the text.  I find it curious that it would be where it 
is. There is another "mark", *.  odar. in line seven.  Again I find this 
curious.  Now it well may be a blotch or simply an undecipherable letter. I 
need to know what those marks are. If it is a symbol it belongs in the 
text. It will broaden the translation as I see it.  If its a simple letter 
or blotch, then thats what it is, but if anyone can help me with this I 
would appreciate it tremendously.


Thanks
Jim    

From reeds Sat Dec 16 15:19:41 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
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Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:19:41 -0500
In-Reply-To: Steve Kudlak <chromexa@ovis.net>
        "Re: Voynich Article" (Dec 16, 15:23)
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On Dec 16, 15:23, Steve Kudlak wrote:

> Subject: Re: Voynich Article
...
> Anyway that aside has anyone received more info and did the project to
> produce a photo fascisimile come to anything at all. Of is that another one
> of those things as the song goes: "We had some many dreams and now they have
> faded out of view.

The facsimile project is definitely on, but with a delay: the
vendor's Yale office is slow in getting set up.  Our project
is, I believe, one of the first things they will get to in
the spring.

Jim

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 16 15:16:11 2000
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Adams Douglas wrote:

> Daniel Harms wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > Much as I hate to admit it, the MS. has hit the big time, but not quite
> > in the way we wanted.  There was an article on the Voynich Manuscript
> > published in the _Weekly World News_ for March 7, pp. 40-41.  They
> > didn't talk to Yale or any of the conventional scholars - the best they
> > could do was land Mike Jay, the author of the previously-mentioned
> > Fortean Times article.  The piece reads as if his had been placed on a
> > fourth-grade reading level and completely sensationalized (though
> > FT is not necessarily a paragon of journalism to begin with...)
>
> Don't feel too bad. The WWN recently won a libel suit by arguing that no
> one believes what they print anyway.
>
> -Adams
>
> --
> ====================================================
> Adams Douglas, San Diego, CA   Adams@Douglas.net
> http://Adams.Douglas.net/
> PGP Public Keys: http://Adams.Douglas.net/pgpkey.txt
> UTM:11S0487200 3623500 MGRS-2:11SMS872235 (100-meter)
>
>                "Geography is only physics slowed down
>                 with a few trees stuck on it."
>                                    ---Terry Pratchett

Well alas it seems to have gotten quiet again. Very quiet. I fear I will have
to start posting things to set people off, like wild and wooly theroies by
Ternece and Dennis Mc Kenna form Invisible Landsacpes. Shall I dare try. Some
of it is weird and I am disinclined to say itholds much matter. But somehow
the phrase: "I don't want to be a giant insect!!!" has a certain ring to it.
Perhaps he read a a but too much Kafka or hraven forbid too many Gor Bad
Sci-Fi novels before bedtimes. If Frueds day residue theories holds.

Anyway that aside has anyone received more info and did the project to
produce a photo fascisimile come to anything at all. Of is that another one
of those things as the song goes: "We had some many dreams and now they have
faded out of view.


Have Fun,
Sends Steve

P.S. Trying to wake some of the dead ....Hopefully safely

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 17 02:37:19 2000
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Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:44:47 -0500
From: Steve Kudlak <chromexa@ovis.net>
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Subject: Re: Voynich Article T Mc Kenna Dead??
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Dennis wrote:

> Steve Kudlak wrote:
> >
> > Adams Douglas wrote:
> >
> > > Don't feel too bad. The WWN recently won a libel suit by arguing that no
> > > one believes what they print anyway.
> > >
> > > -Adams
>
>         And, be it noted, John Stojko first learned of the
> Voynich Manuscript from the National Enquirer, the
> USA's most infamous tabloid weekly.
>
> > Well alas it seems to have gotten quiet again. Very quiet. I fear I will have
> > to start posting things to set people off, like wild and wooly theroies by
> > Ternece and Dennis Mc Kenna form Invisible Landsacpes.
>
>         Terence McKenna is dead.  I had never heard of Dennis
> McKenna.  Is he Terence's son?  I regret that I never
> discussed my debunking of Levitov with Terence.
>
>         What is the book "Invisible Landscapes"?
>
> >  Shall I dare try. Some
> > of it is weird and I am disinclined to say itholds much matter. But somehow
> > the phrase: "I don't want to be a giant insect!!!" has a certain ring to it.
> > Perhaps he read a a but too much Kafka or hraven forbid too many Gor Bad
> > Sci-Fi novels before bedtimes. If Frueds day residue theories holds.
>
>         Frogguy and I had a long silly discussion on writing a
> bogus VMs decipherment that would be a good enough read
> that Yale would see that there was a market for a good
> facsimile of the VMs. We resolved some important issues
> that have tripped up former creators of claimed
> decipherments.
>
>         However, as Jim has noted to the list, the move to
> disk the VMs is still on with Yale.  And there's always
> Octavo if the in-house effort takes too long.
>
>         Having said that, I'd be most interested to hear your
> ideas for a bogus decipherment!  Crackpot theories are
> always fun.
>
> Dennis

I am having an awful schocking night. Terence McKenna is dead? He and his borther
went off to
South America, speficly a region in the Amazon. He was most known for his love of
pyschedelic mushrooms. He would often spout off (are those the right words) on all
sorts of weird things. He had a somewhat more conservastive brother that was
associated with Stanford University at the time.

They would often visit places, For example I was living in Santa Cruz, CA at the
time and he gave a presentation there along with his brother. His book with his
brother Dennis called Invisible Landscapes is a weiorness romp in itself. He ties
together all sorts of things psychoactive mushrooms,. human evolution, the I Ching
and schizophrenia to name a few. Since it has been quite around these parts I'll do
a a resynopsis over the next coupla days if anyone wants or just for fun.

How did you find out he was head allmy refs sdsay 1946- which indicates he is still
alive and would in his middle 50s. So please pray tell me how did you find this
out. I'll ask around the weirness circuit.

Have Fun,
Sends Steve


P.S. Excuse my typos have been up for ages. ...at this point...

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I haven't double checked anything.

Have Fun,
Sends Steve


From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 17 05:51:01 2000
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Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:02:18 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Subject: Re: Well at least on Amazon//// Terence McKenna died 6 April 2000
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Steve Kudlak wrote:
> 
> I haven't double checked anything.
> 
> Have Fun,
> Sends Steve

When Jorge Stolfi and I were in Prague last February, Michal
Pober told us he thought that Terence McKenna had died.

Rergards, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 17 10:07:47 2000
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To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Terence McKenna has passed on
References: <3A3C71A9.F3A47D28@ovis.net> <3A3C9D3A.160B7563@voynich.nu>
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Here in the states we had a talk radio show that specialized in all
things strange, called 'Coast to coast' with Art Bell.  The show is
still on and can probably be received in Europe via short wave radio
(Art was a big short wave fan) although  Art has since retired. Terence
Mckenna was a frequent guest of the show and Art made a point of asking
fans to say prayers for him (in whatever religion) during his final days
of illness and announced his death on the show the evening of it's
occurrence.  Although I didn't agree with Mr McKenna on many of his
points, I am sad to see his passing.  He is the only man I have ever
heard speak who I would say had a mind that was 'too open', yet he was a
very intelligent man nontheless.  For whatever pseudoscience he
perpetuated, he was also responsible for the opening of quite a few
people's eyes and for that I will sorely miss him.
Regards,
Brian

Rene Zandbergen wrote:
> 
> Steve Kudlak wrote:
> >
> > I haven't double checked anything.
> >
> > Have Fun,
> > Sends Steve
> 
> When Jorge Stolfi and I were in Prague last February, Michal
> Pober told us he thought that Terence McKenna had died.
> 
> Rergards, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 17 11:38:39 2000
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Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:38:52 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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References: <200003041059.CAA27300@cts.com> <3A3BCF35.5E4BF139@ovis.net> <3A3C1C5B.51816C0A@micro-net.com> <3A3C6EEF.9C766727@ovis.net>
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Steve Kudlak wrote:
> 
> Dennis wrote:
> 
> > Steve Kudlak wrote:
> > >
> > > Well alas it seems to have gotten quiet again. Very quiet. I fear I will have
> > > to start posting things to set people off, like wild and wooly theroies by
> > > Ternece and Dennis Mc Kenna form Invisible Landsacpes.

	By all means do!  I always enjoy crackpot VMs
theories.

> >         Terence McKenna is dead.  I had never heard of Dennis
> > McKenna.  Is he Terence's son?  I regret that I never
> > discussed my debunking of Levitov with Terence.

> I am having an awful schocking night. Terence McKenna is dead? He and his borther
> went off to
> South America, speficly a region in the Amazon. He was most known for his love of
> pyschedelic mushrooms. He would often spout off (are those the right words) on all
> sorts of weird things. He had a somewhat more conservastive brother that was
> associated with Stanford University at the time.
> 
> They would often visit places, For example I was living in Santa Cruz, CA at the
> time and he gave a presentation there along with his brother. His book with his
> brother Dennis called Invisible Landscapes is a weiorness romp in itself. He ties
> together all sorts of things psychoactive mushrooms,. human evolution, the I Ching
> and schizophrenia to name a few. Since it has been quite around these parts I'll do
> a a resynopsis over the next coupla days if anyone wants or just for fun.

	Sounds interesting!   Amazon has the book, although
few details are given.  

> How did you find out he was head allmy refs sdsay 1946- which indicates he is still
> alive and would in his middle 50s. So please pray tell me how did you find this
> out. I'll ask around the weirness circuit.

	I found out on Adam McLean's alchemy website.  

http://www.levity.com/eschaton/index.html

	He died at 2:15 a.m. Pacific time, April 3, 2000,
after a 
long struggle with brain cancer.  

	I found these sites for Dennis McKenna. He has a PhD
and some of his scientific work considers the possible
harmful effects of the hallucinogens that he and
Terence took.

DJM - (mostly his scientific work)
http://www.heffter.org/DJM.html

Invisible Landscape (few details of content)
http://www.psykedelbok.se/invisible_landscape.html

Terence McKenna Land (huge amounts of stuff by Terence)
http://www.deoxy.org/mckenna.htm

More Medical Studies by Dennis McKenna
http://www.maps.org/ayahuasca/hoasca.html

	I wish I had discussed the VMs with Terence.  He noted
in his review of Levitov, "Gnosis Magazine", #7, Spring
1988, "However, A. E. Waite in his 'The Holy Grail'
mentions 'there is fortunately one fragmentary of
Albigensian belief which has survived... I refer to the
"Cathar Ritual of Lyons" which is now well known,
having been published in 1898 by Mr. F. C. Conybeare.' 
Waite goes on to mention that part of the Lyons Codex
contains 'certain prayers for the dying.'  The Codex is
in the Langue d'Oc.  Does it resemble the Voynich
material?  We are not told."

	You can find "Heresies of the High Middle Ages" by
Wakefield & Evans in any good university library.  It
contains a translation of the Cathar Ritual of Lyons,
along with 5 other Cathar texts.  Catharism was a
variant form of Christianity and contained not a shred
of the Egyptian/Greek/Roman cult of the goddess Isis. 
In fact, Wakefield & Evans was available when Levitov
wrote his book.  I wonder how he missed it.

Dennis

From reeds Tue Dec 19 10:34:49 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
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Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:34:49 -0500
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Dear all,

I have been in correspondence with a great grand son of Leonell C.
Strong, the famous Voynichologist. He is interested in finding out
more about his ancestor's life and was surprised to find his name
showing up on the web in connection with the VMS.

The best thing would be to put him in touch with Rayman Malekei.
Rayman, are you still here?  Has anybody been in touch with
him recently?

Jim

-- 
Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 20 14:46:29 2000
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From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: bfarnell@gte.net
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Terence McKenna has passed on: 4/6/2000
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Yes -- I heard about it on 4/6/00 while I was at the Society for the
Anthropology of Consciousness Spring Meeting. --more--

On Sun, 17 Dec 2000 bfarnell@gte.net wrote:

> Although I didn't agree with Mr McKenna on many of his points, I am
> sad to see his passing.  He is the only man I have ever heard speak
> who I would say had a mind that was 'too open', yet he was a very
> intelligent man nontheless.  For whatever pseudoscience he
> perpetuated, he was also responsible for the opening of quite a few
> people's eyes and for that I will sorely miss him.
>
> Regards,
> Brian

As someone who knew him, I thank you for the deep chuckle I got from the
above. As a linguist nee English major, I must admit a sense of awe, envy,
and even peevishness and low self-esteem at his incessant use of words I'd
probably never used and only vaguely knew as central points of his talk --
e.g. 'autochthonous,' which I find more often now yet still instead use
'indigenous' for wider understanding by my audience. ;-) Which, of course,
he always seemed merrily oblivious to.

Case in point re: his way-open mind: his mushroom theory of the origin of
human speech -- that a tribe of primates following ungulate herds found
psilocybin mushrooms (after traveling, shielded, across interstellar space
from ... somewhere) in the dung, and tried it; at low doses, better visual
acuity; at higher, a rewiring of the brain with this symbiot which allows
for speech (or, in my model, a higher speed container and thus a new level
of language).

Funny thing is, when I compare it with the so-called origin theories in
linguistics, they pale by comparison, looking simple-minded and lacking
any evolutionary hint of what the developmental process of hemispheric
lateralization had to do with it all. McKenna's theory at least allows for
a generous interpretation where 'rewiring' includes the introduction (not
in other primates) of hemispheric lateralization (not to be confused with
asymmetries per se). Go figure! ;-)

Just LISTENING to him was a continual roller-coaster trip with the *weird*
way he talked! Perhaps THE oddest speech patterns of any English speaker
I've ever encountered. Thankfully, there was room even for his wide-open
voice/mind in our cuture. Or, as the Cheyennes used to say, which might
work for a day or so as his epitaph (given the 'wider applicability' of
his work): 

"There's nobody SO useless that they can't at least be a bad example"!

RIP, Terrance! Report back on your Big Trip!

warm regards, moonhawk

dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu
<http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm>

"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" 
                                                   -- Roy, Mystery Men



From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 20 15:25:23 2000
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:24:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: PS Re: Terence McKenna has passed on 
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Oh, yeah -- that's why I wrote that! McKenna is the one who introduced me
personally to the VMs at his place in Inverness almost 20 years ago,
showing me its weirdnesses in a color copy he had. I may still have an
hour or so of video interview with him about that and various world cycles
coming together in 2012.

moonhawk


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From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Terence McKenna has passed on: 4/6/2000
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Dan Moonhawk Alford  wrote:

> As a linguist nee English major, I must admit
> a sense of awe, envy, and even peevishness and low
> self-esteem at his incessant use of words I'd
> probably never used and only vaguely knew as central
> points of his talk -- e.g. 'autochthonous,' which I
> find more often now yet still instead use
> 'indigenous' for wider understanding by my audience.

This was obviously not the main point of the note I'm
replying to, but it seems worth noting that 
'autochtoon' is the Dutch word for indigenous.
The non-greek word used for the corresponding
noun is 'inboorling' (German: Eingeborene) which
has a very different flavour. It is only ever used 
in the scenario of an adventurer discovering a tribe
of hitherto unkonwn and probably underdevelloped 
people (in the eyes of the adventurer) in their
own country.
As it was done in the great age of discovery.

The modern opposite to autochtoon is allochtoon
(best equivalent being 'immigrant'). I'm not too
sure about the German here. Dutch 'uitboorling'
does not exist and seems like a useful word in any
stand-up comedian's sketch.

To bring some Voynich content into this mail:
I am interested in hearing more about the colour
copy/ies Terence McKenna apparently had. I never
thought any existed, aside of individual shots
ordered by people on a personal request basis.

Kind regards, Rene



__________________________________________________
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 20 23:07:26 2000
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I think we've been double bitten!

Bob Richmond

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 00:28:19 2000
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From: Alissa Mower clough <teleny@connix.com>
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At least we don't need a project to translate THIS gibberish!

RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:

> I think we've been double bitten!
>
> Bob Richmond

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From: "John Grove" <John@morewood.net>
To: "VMS List" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Slow Year
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:28:47 -0500
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Well, tis Christmas season already and a rather quiet year on the list. I'm
still asking Santa for that colour copy! Maybe this year we'll get it!

Best wishes for the holidays to everyone,

John.


From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 08:50:59 2000
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From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	Hey, folks!  This is Japanese!!!  Perhaps some of our
Japanese speakers (Frogguy?  Gabriel?) would tell us
what it means?  

Dennis

Alissa Mower clough wrote:
> 
> At least we don't need a project to translate THIS gibberish!
> 
> RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > I think we've been double bitten!
> >
> > Bob Richmond

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 10:23:02 2000
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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:22:16 -0500
To: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
From: Big Jim <bigjim@gloryroad.net>
Subject: real problem
Cc: voynich@rand.org
In-Reply-To: <3A3EA04A.24949EE6@acm.org>
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 <5.0.2.1.0.20001217200746.00a108a0@gloryroad.net>
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Hi Jim
I know what I told you but for now I am backing off...I want to be 
absolutely sure before I really go off the deep end here.
I have translated 20 lines of this manuscript and have come to the 
insurmountable conclusion that this thing has already been translated and 
then it was suppressed. This may explain why I hear it is so hard to get 
good copies of this thing.
It so far seems to be some kind of work concerning the ancient mysteries. I 
know the core of the mysteries and maybe this is why i see what i do here.
I can not believe that so many educated people and computers have not been 
able to figure this out. I can understand how the vulgar miss it, but there 
are too many secret societies with members in the strangest places that 
know at least what i know.
Im CC'ing this message to the group because they said things were too 
quiet. I invite you all to look at yale pic # Z3610590  and tell me what 
you see.
Translation is that easy where I am in the MS....too easy at least for now.
I'm telling you..this thing was translated and suppressed.

Jim

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 11:23:13 2000
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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:21:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: real problem
To: voynich@rand.org
Cc: bigjim@gloryroad.net
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--- Big Jim <bigjim@gloryroad.net> wrote:

> I have translated 20 lines of this manuscript and
> have come to the 
> insurmountable conclusion that this thing has
> already been translated and 
> then it was suppressed. This may explain why I hear
> it is so hard to get 
> good copies of this thing.

I can't resist. It is not hard to get good copies of
it. You seem to be working from copies visible on 
the WWW...
But I'm curious when you think it was suppressed and
by whom. Also, was the original suppressed or this
earlier translation?

Cheers, Rene

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
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From: "Roman A. Surma" <sur@loniir.ru>
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From: Claus_Anders@t-online.de (Claus Anders)
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IOLK5LfsSce76lbJVslYyWXJxMdU7G/ozce1x9DHIAM=?=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:33:13 +0100
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I haven't translated all of this, but it's definitely SPAM . It describes a
new System and the author apologizes for his message. This is the 3rd (as
far as what I received) mail from Japan of this kind. I always ignore these
and delete them. If someone needs really a translation, I can do it (but I
think it isn't worth the effort).
Another matter:

On folio 84 (s3160590 Beinecke #) I only can see our nymphs taking a bath
while enyoing it apperently. One thing if look farom far away the picture on
the right middle says something like FUBA or FUBI (what ever that meens).
Are we so blind ?
Cheers and happy holidays
Claus

From reeds Thu Dec 21 14:57:36 2000
From: reeds@fry.research.att.com (Jim Reeds)
Message-Id: <1001221145736.ZM2707982@fry.research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:57:36 -0500
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Yesterday's Le Monde apparently had an article about the
VMS:


  L'ind=E9chiffrable manuscrit Voynich r=E9siste toujours
  au d=E9cryptage =

                                            =


  Cet =E9trange ouvrage sans titre ni nom d'auteur, probablement r=E9alis=
=E9 au XVIe
  si=E8cle, est r=E9dig=E9 dans un alphabet et une langue inconnus. Derri=
=E8re son
  apparence simple et r=E9aliste, ce langage s'est r=E9v=E9l=E9 si comple=
xe que
  personne n'a encore r=E9ussi =E0 en percer le secret =

  20 D=E9cembre 2000 - PIERRE BARTHELEMY - Taille : Long (281 lignes) =


I have not yet seen it yet.

Jim

-- =

Jim Reeds, AT&T Labs - Research
Shannon Laboratory, Room C229, Building 103
180 Park Avenue, Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971, USA

reeds@research.att.com, phone: +1 973 360 8414, fax: +1 973 360 8178

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 15:48:19 2000
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Message-ID: <3A426F34.BF12629@voynich.nu>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:59:32 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Jim wrote:

> Yesterday's Le Monde apparently had an article about the
> VMS:
> 
>   L'indchiffrable manuscrit Voynich rsiste toujours
>   au dcryptage

Indeed:
http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,2320,129486,00.html

Both Jim and Frogguy are quoted. No extraterrestrials,
no Chinese hypothesis but a well-balanced argument that
the text looks like real language, but could be the
work of a mad medieval genius (among many other suggested
possibilities).

And the hope that we (well, someone) may still solve it
is present too.

The article is far more interesting than the USA Today
one, but not quite as informative as the Lingua Franca
one, mainly due to the fact that it is much shorter.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 16:51:37 2000
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From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
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Claus Anders wrote:
> I haven't translated all of this, but it's definitely SPAM . It describes a

The old mailing list system we use doesn't support any kind of spam
suppression -- no filters for domain/sender/subject, no blocking of
non-member postings, and so on.

The last time we got a small spate of spam on the list, several years ago,
the consensus was that it was acceptable, and we decided not to move the
list to a new site then.  Moving it to majordomo at Rand.org is not an
option -- I changed jobs nearly five years ago, and they've allowed us to
continue to use the resources on sufferance.

If anyone has strong feelings on whether the current level of spam is
acceptable or not, please mail me directly (jim@acm.org) rather than
discussing it on the list.  If there's a significant response I'll
summarize to the list.  Options include (at least) staying with the 
current system until it gets worse or Rand cuts us off; asking the
volunteers from the last round to renew their offers; and moving to
a commercial or free mailing list service.

-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Highday, 1 Yule S.R. 2000, 21:40
	12.19.7.14.15, 13 Men 18 Mac, Seventh Lord of Night

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 18:54:20 2000
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Subject: Agrippa:  Occult Philosophy
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This may be off-topic or right-on, depending on your perception:
=20
This is generally to Jim Reeds and his specific understanding of the =
subject, but since Christmas is upon us, and I practice the tradition to =
a degree,  (not wholly limited by my devout belief in Human Secularism), =
I also offer my brief discourse in these matters to the population at =
large, for it is the understanding of ourselves that leads to toward the =
future prosperity of mankind.  The corpus of this work will be in print =
soon enough, and I invite criticism or comment prior to that =
publication.  I've left out the "Ars Memoriae" in this dissertation as a =
unique discovery, but I will add it as a supplement to this post for =
your perusal.  Merry Christmas to all.
Jim,

Knowing your interest in historical cipher and the history of cipher, I =
thought I'd add to my brief presentation of Agrippa's "Ars Memoriae" =
system by providing you with a few Trithemian connections you might find =
interesting.  It just may be that even with your decipherment of book 3 =
of Trithemius' Steganographia, we haven't yet closed the book on =
Trithemian systems!  Here's something for your keen intellect to ponder =
while you enjoy the holidays - a gift of thought, if you will.=20

In addition to Agrippa's system based on "Ars Memoriae" which I recently =
recovered from his first two books of Occult Philosophy and presented to =
you in short form, there is the matter of his third and later book to be =
dealt with.  My copy of this book presently exists only in English, but =
while I wait for the Latin version to arrive I thought I'd give you a =
Christmas present by demonstrating but a few of the connections between =
this book and those of Trithemius and deVigenere.

Given what I know of Agrippa's first two books, my suspicions are easily =
aroused concerning the third book, but Agrippa offers up to his readers =
additional grounds for suspicion, lest any reader remain in doubt:

"How great writings are there made of the irresistable power of the =
Magical Art, of the prodigious Images of Astrologers, of the monstrous =
transmutations of Alchymists, of the blessed stone, by which, =
Mydas-like, all metals that were touched are presently transmuted into =
Gold, or Silver, all which are found vain, fictitious, and false, as =
often as they are practised according to letter.  Yet such things are =
delivered, and writ by great and grave Philosophers, and holy men, whose =
traditions, who dare say are false?  Nay, it were impious to think that =
they were lyes.  There is therefore another meaning then what is written =
in letters, and that is vailed with divers mysteries, and as yet clearly =
explained by none of the Masters, and which I believe no man can attain =
by reading of books only, without a skilfull, and faithfull master, =
unless he be divinely illuminated, as very few are."

We become aware that "mysteries" are hidden in works throughout the =
ages, which can be revealed only by a skillful and faithful master, =
which is not a matter to be questioned.  The question is the nature of =
concealment and the methods by which these secrets may be extracted.  =
Agrippa puts himself forth as such a master in numerous statements, and =
numerous times mentions that what he is revealing is a secret of the =
"ancients".  It is left to us to discern the nature of the secret.  He =
calls his work "Alphebetary and Mathematical", terms that when placed =
together in a modern sense raise the spectre of cryptography.  Agrippa =
makes numerous statements about the nature and seclusion of the work =
presented, but most can be summed up by these two statements, presented =
in true Trithemian fashion:

(of the construction and concealment of the work:)

"but let him accuse himself, who understandeth not our writings; for =
they are obscure, and covered with divers mysteries, by the which it =
will easily happen, that many may erre and loose their sense; therefore =
let no man be angry with me, if we have folded up the truth of this =
science with many Enigmaes, and dispersed it in divers places, for we =
have not hidden it from the wise, but from the wicked and ungodly, and =
have delivered it in such words which necessarily blind the foolish, and =
easily may admit the wise to the understanding of them."[the "Ars =
Memoriae" was hidden in such a fashion.]

(of the content of the work and its traditional method of transmission:)

"But that the sincere truth lying hid under these things, is committed =
to the perfect only, not by writings, but by word of mouth, and that =
this is that Alphebetary and Arithmetical Theology which Christ in =
private manifested to his Apostles."

A statement made in a letter to a friend demonstrates the division of =
the work between the first two books and the third, a division I have =
discovered and demonstrated to be true:

"But as for those books which you have of mine which were made in my =
youth, the two former of them were deficient in many things, the third =
is wholy imperfect, and contains but a certain Epitome of my writings.  =
But I will (God willing) set forth the whole work,  being made entire, =
and revised, reserving the key thereof for most intimate friends only, =
one whereof you need not at all question but that I reckon you."

While my mind is already suspicious of cryptographic allusions in this =
third manuscript by cause of my observations made in the first two =
books, I am also aware that no secret remains a secret, and if there is =
any truth in my presumption that Agrippa had cryptology in mind when he =
wrote this work, that proof would become evident in works written by =
colleagues and later authors who were privy to the information.  Here I =
present but a brief portion of that proof, for your liesure.

The first suspicion of cryptographic intent is to be found in a device =
printed in Vigenere's voluminous "Traicte des Chiffres" and again =
reprinted in Selenus.  This device consists of four lines drawn in such =
a fashion as to divide a square into nine parts, precisely the fashion =
of the ancient game now called "tic-tac-toe".  In each of the nine =
squares is written three letters of the alphabet.  To represent a =
character of the alphabet, one draws the form of the square and a =
conciliatory note to distinguish which of the three letters is intended =
from that square.  Afterwards the squares may be connected together to =
form unintelligible symbols.  Agrippa illustrates the identical device =
and its similar use under the guise of forming sigils from the names of =
angels.  The "latinizing" of the device by Vigenere cannot mask its form =
and operation, that being virtually identical to the form expressed in =
Agrippa.

There are also several tables cabalistic to be found in Agrippa's third =
book, all written with Hebrew characters in traditional fashion, adding =
to their obscurity it would seem.  It's what Agrippa says of these =
tables that is of importance to the connectivity I seek:

"Abbas Tritemius writ to Maximilian Cesar a Special Treatise concerning =
these, which he that will thoroughly examine, may from thence draw great =
knowledge of future times.  Over the twelve Signs set these, viz. over =
Aries Malchidael, over Taurus Asmodel; over Gemini Ambriel; over Cancer =
Muriel; over Leo Verchiel; over Virgo Hamaliel; over Libra Zuriel; over =
Scorpio Barchiel; over Sagittarius Advachiel; over Capricorn Hanael; =
over Aquarius Cambiel; over Pisces Barchiel."

In one fell swoop Agrippa firmly connects his work to Trithemius, =
intimates the secret intent of his diagrams, and verifies the =
authenticity of the 12 Trithemian modes that went unprinted until =
Selenus, adding that Trithemius' dedication of the unprinted work was to =
Emperor Maximilian.  (No small piece of history).  This angelic sequence =
may also be extracted from one of Agrippa's tables, giving us an idea =
that Trithemius may have also used a systematic method of extraction for =
the order of other angel names used in his books of steganography and =
polygraphy.  (As I have discovered in Agrippa, the angel names may have =
no meaning in Hebrew, but when transliterated to Greek or Latin =
characters by the alphabet presented in the "Ars Memoriae" scheme, the =
meaning readily becomes apparent through another language.  Something to =
consider with Trithemius - linguistic methods of concealment, as it =
were.)

Extracting these 12 angel names also verifies Agrippa's consonantal =
order of the Hebrew characters according to the alphabet of his "Ars =
Memoriae" system, the first of several demonstrations that Trithemius =
was working off the same set of tables and identical philosophical =
system as that presented in the manuscripts of his friend, Agrippa.

While the Hebrew representation is somewhat obscure to the modern =
reader, Agrippa makes it clear that his intent is for the reader to =
broaden his horizon somewhat:

"Of this calculatory Art Alfonsus Cyprius once wrote, and I know who els =
and also fitted it to Latine Characters; [read: Trithemius] But because =
the letters of every tongue, as we shewed in the first book, have in =
their number, order, and figure a Celestial and Divine originall, =
[relating to the alphabet of the "Ars Memoriae"] I shall easily grant =
this calculation concerning the names of the spirits to be made not only =
by Hebrew letters, but also Chaldean, and Arabick, Aegyptian, Greek, =
Latine, and any other, the tables being rightly made after the imitation =
of the presidents." ["presidents" in Agrippa's meaning relate to the =
alphabetical division of consonants and vowels as represented by the =
zodiac, the planets, and the elements.]

Agrippa presents a table titled "The Right Table of the Commutations", =
which is the Hebrew version of Trithemius' now famous and historical =
polyalphabetic table in the Latin alphabet.  The table written in =
reverse is entitled "The Averse Table of the Commutations", and may be =
found in Latin form in both Porta and Vigenere.  Presented as =
cabbalistic tables they are indeed mysterious, but working the angelic =
names through the tables sheds some light on their operation.

Another set of tables demonstrates a jump in cryptographic philosophy - =
"The Table of the Combinations of Ziruph" and "The Rational Table of =
Ziruph" are identical in operation to those submitted by Abram Colorno =
in his "Scotographia Italica", and touched on by Vigenere.  That both =
Colorno and Agrippa saw these as cryptographic instruments makes one =
reconsider the age of the systems being described.

Two other tables that I find of extreme interest in connection to =
outside authority and substantiation are the tables which separate the =
Hebrew alphabet, the first into the signs of the planets (vowels) and =
the second into the signs of the zodiac (consonants), following =
Agrippa's alphabetic scheme presented in his "Ars Memoriae" system.  =
Vigenere presents examples of enciphering with only vowels, and presents =
the "planet" table in Latin characters and Latin order with the =
planetary signs being removed.  This correlation between tables may be =
passed off to coincidence, if it weren't for Vigenere's representation =
of the table of  the "zodiac"!

In this instance Vigenere does something that cannot escape notice.  He =
presents his table in Latin characters and without the planetary signs, =
even reducing the columns from 12 to 11 for some unexplained reason.  =
What Vigenere DID NOT do was change the order of the Hebrew alphabet to =
match the order of the Latin alphabet.  Vigenere presents his Modified =
table in the EXACT order of the Hebrew characters as they are =
represented in Agrippa's manuscript.  While it's not my intent to build =
a case for plagiarism,  it does appear that Vigenere attempted to =
conceal his source when presenting these systems for consideration.  The =
lack of mention of the original author can easily be attributed to the =
veil of secrecy Agrippa demands of his disciples and Vigeneres' desire =
to honor that demand.  It should not be forgotten that some of these =
mechanisms had already filtered their way into Porta's understanding and =
printed works, though if he understood their origin, he did an extremely =
good job of concealing that fact.

What I present to you here in the spirit of shared interests is but a =
glimpse at the many and various correlations the works of Agrippa =
represent, establishing a solid link between the cabalistic and esoteric =
art, and those instruments that are ascribed to the birth of modern =
cryptography and our understanding of the art of "alphabetical and =
mathematical" concealment.  Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy =
may represent the "missing link", the "keystone" document that fills an =
historical void of the progression of thought and learning as it relates =
to the art of cryptography and science.  His writings draw much older =
and much forgotten manuscripts into the light, causing us to view them =
in His new light, as works of cryptography, with hidden intent.   One =
can only hope, but perhaps we have just stumbled onto the playing field =
of the "secrets of the ancients", and if so, we may find that our =
history of science and discovery may have many chapters still left =
unwritten.

There is a substantial quote to be made here from Agrippa relating to =
these matters, but I either cannot find it or cannot sort it out from =
the hundreds of markings I've made on his pages.  It tells us that he is =
the light and the way, and the guide to what we seek, that only through =
his eyes may we attain the secrets of the "ancients".

I have demonstrated to you in short and abbreviated discourse the =
information to be received from Agrippa's writings, the content of which =
he admits and affirms in many and various places.  What I cannot tell =
you is how far these revelations move back the hands of time in regard =
to what we consider "cryptographic".  Is it possible that we may =
discover secrets hidden in polyalphabetic cipher as far back as 350 =
C.E.?  Were digraphic systems understood and in operation as far back as =
300 B.C.E.?  Your guess is as good as mine.  In light of these =
revelations our collective understanding may be in need of slight =
modification.

What is certain is that Agrippa's works will serve as a major connection =
between ancient and modern ideals and concepts.  How far back in time =
this carries us is limited only by our imagination and our willingness =
to accept that something great remains to be discovered in the writings =
and teachings of our ancestors, no matter how distant.

As always, comments are appreciated.  Merry Christmas.

Glen



(The ARS MEMORIAE as an addendum:)

In his Three Books of Occult Philosophy, Agrippa went to great lengths =
to
describe a system by which the very words one writes convey a message,
saying that this message could be read even if the manuscripts were
translated into any one of the three primary languages, Greek, Hebrew, =
and
Latin.  Portions of the system are scattered across the three books for
concealment, and it is only when you diagram all the things said in the
books that the system reveals itself.

Agrippa uses an alphabet that is reprinted by Vigenere, Porta and =
Selenus,
and also used by Trithemius.  This relates the alphabet mnemonically to =
the
12 zodiac signs, the 7 planets, the 4 elements and the spirit (soul). =
Zodiac
is consonant, planets are vowels, and the remaining letters are the =
elements
and the spirit.  Their order appears just as they were taught in the =
seven
sciences of the time, and the entire system is based on the mnemonic
teaching that was so prevelant:

B aries
C taurus
D gemini
F cancer
G leo
L virgo
M libra
N scorpio
P sagittarius
R capricorn
S aquarius
T pisces
A saturn
E jupiter
I mars
O sun
U venus
I  (cons.) mercury
V (cons.) moon
K earth
Q water
X air
Z fire
H spirit

Parts of the body are also mnemonically presented from their order of
teaching in medicine, and assigned influences from the zodiac, the =
planets,
and the elements.  Names of birds, plants, animals, etc. are also =
assigned
these celestial virtues and remembered in their order against this =
scale.
(see Pliny)  In fact, if you go back to the teachings of the "ancients", =
you
will find an order prevalent in the books, probably because there were =
few
textbooks and it was important to remember things in an order that =
allowed
for easy retention.

Agrippa takes this mnemonic teaching one step further.  As an example,
Saturn has the lapwing as its bird, the cuttlefish as its fish, the mole =
as
its mammal, lead as its metal, onyx as its stone, the right foot as a =
body
part, the right ear as its head part, and the color of blue, with many =
more
distinctions to be found in the texts relating to Saturn.  Saturn also
equates to the letter A.

Agrippa's system is based on his observation that when you write the =
word
"lapwing" you are also representing the letter A.  When you write the =
word
"lead" you are also saying the letter A, etc.  So if I were to write:

"He has the grace of a lapwing, the swiftness of a cuttlefish, and the
cunning of a mole, but his right ear has all the tone of a leaden =
vessel,
and his right foot knows not how to command the dance." I would have =
just
written the letter A six times in a row.  This is the simple version =
alluded
to in book one.

Agrippa is well versed in the mnemonic art of teaching, and he knows =
that
all things have three aspects of consideration, those being the =
physical,
the intellectual, and the spiritual (or other words similar to these =
that
divide things by three virtues.)  To expand his system he takes these
aspects into account, demonstrating that the metal "lead" can signify =
three
different letters, depending on its aspect.  So if we use the words in =
order
of aspect, using the phyical meaning first, the intellectual meaning =
second,
and the spiritual meaning lastly, or whatever order you may wish to
establish, we can expand our vocabulary to hundreds of words from the =
seven
sciences and still be
able to write our epistle with ease.  He notes that you can use any form =
of
the word as long as the root of the word is maintained.

It is said by Agrippa that this is how the alchemists hide their true
formulae in voluminous allegorical works.  That is no small statement!
Vigenere calls the alphabet "alchemical" without further comment, which =
may
be an acknowledgement of Agrippa's claim.

I hope this is of some small use to you in your consideration of =
history,
and I would appreciate any comments you may have on this.

Glen
=20

=20

=20




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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>This may be off-topic or right-on, =
depending on your=20
perception:</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>T</FONT>his is generally to Jim Reeds and his specific =
understanding of=20
the subject, but since Christmas is upon us, and I practice the =
tradition to a=20
degree, <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;(</SPAN>not wholly =
limited by my=20
devout belief in Human Secularism), I also offer my brief discourse in =
these=20
matters to the population at large, for it is the understanding of =
ourselves=20
that leads to toward the future prosperity of mankind.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; The corpus of this work will be in =
print soon=20
enough, and I invite criticism or comment prior to that =
publication.&nbsp; I've=20
left out the "Ars Memoriae" in this dissertation as a&nbsp;unique =
discovery,=20
but&nbsp;I will add it as a supplement to this post for your=20
perusal.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>Merry Christmas to all.</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Jim,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Knowing your interest in historical cipher and the =
history of=20
cipher, I thought I&#8217;d add to my brief presentation of =
Agrippa&#8217;s &#8220;Ars Memoriae&#8221;=20
system by providing you with a few Trithemian connections you might find =

interesting.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It just may =
be that=20
even with your decipherment of book 3 of Trithemius&#8217; =
Steganographia, we haven&#8217;t=20
yet closed the book on Trithemian systems!<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Here&#8217;s something for your keen intellect to ponder while =
you enjoy the=20
holidays &#8211; a gift of thought, if you will. </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>In addition to Agrippa&#8217;s system based on =
&#8220;Ars Memoriae&#8221; which=20
I recently recovered from his first two books of Occult Philosophy and =
presented=20
to you in short form, there is the matter of his third and later book to =
be=20
dealt with.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>My copy of =
this book=20
presently exists only in English, but while I wait for the Latin version =
to=20
arrive I thought I&#8217;d give you a Christmas present by demonstrating =
but a few of=20
the connections between this book and those of Trithemius and =
deVigenere.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Given what I know of Agrippa&#8217;s first two =
books, my suspicions=20
are easily aroused concerning the third book, but Agrippa offers up to =
his=20
readers additional grounds for suspicion, lest any reader remain in =
doubt:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;How great writings are there made of the =
irresistable power=20
of the Magical Art, of the prodigious Images of Astrologers, of the =
monstrous=20
transmutations of Alchymists, of the blessed stone, by which, =
Mydas-like, all=20
metals that were touched are presently transmuted into Gold, or Silver, =
all=20
which are found vain, fictitious, and false, as often as they are =
practised=20
according to letter.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Yet =
such=20
things are delivered, and writ by great and grave Philosophers, and holy =
men,=20
whose traditions, who dare say are false?<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Nay, it were impious to think that they were lyes.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>There is therefore another =
meaning then=20
what is written in letters, and that is vailed with divers mysteries, =
and as yet=20
clearly explained by none of the Masters, and which I believe no man can =
attain=20
by reading of books only, without a skilfull, and faithfull master, =
unless he be=20
divinely illuminated, as very few are.&#8221;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>We become aware that &#8220;mysteries&#8221; are =
hidden in works=20
throughout the ages, which can be revealed only by a skillful and =
faithful=20
master, which is not a matter to be questioned.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The question is the nature of=20
concealment and the methods by which these secrets may be =
extracted.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Agrippa puts himself forth as =
such a=20
master in numerous statements, and numerous times mentions that what he =
is=20
revealing is a secret of the &#8220;ancients&#8221;.<SPAN =
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>It is left to us to discern the nature of the secret.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>He calls his work =
&#8220;Alphebetary and=20
Mathematical&#8221;, terms that when placed together in a modern sense =
raise the=20
spectre of cryptography.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Agrippa=20
makes numerous statements about the nature and seclusion of the work =
presented,=20
but most can be summed up by these two statements, presented in true =
Trithemian=20
fashion:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>(of the construction and concealment of the =
work:)</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;but let him accuse himself, who =
understandeth not our=20
writings; for they are obscure, and covered with divers mysteries, by =
the which=20
it will easily happen, that many may erre and loose their sense; =
therefore let=20
no man be angry with me, if we have folded up the truth of this science =
with=20
many Enigmaes, and dispersed it in divers places, for we have not hidden =
it from=20
the wise, but from the wicked and ungodly, and have delivered it in such =
words=20
which necessarily blind the foolish, and easily may admit the wise to =
the=20
understanding of them.&#8221;[the "Ars Memoriae" was hidden in such a =
fashion.]</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>(of the content of the work and its traditional =
method of=20
transmission:)</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;But that the sincere truth lying hid under =
these things, is=20
committed to the perfect only, not by writings, but by word of mouth, =
and that=20
this is that Alphebetary and Arithmetical Theology which Christ in =
private=20
manifested to his Apostles.&#8221;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>A statement made in a letter to a friend =
demonstrates the=20
division of the work between the first two books and the third, a=20
division&nbsp;I have discovered and demonstrated to be true:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;But as for those books which you have of =
mine which were=20
made in my youth, the two former of them were deficient in many things, =
the=20
third is wholy imperfect, and contains but a certain Epitome of my=20
writings.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>But I will (God =
willing)=20
set forth the whole work,<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>being=20
made entire, and revised, reserving the key thereof for most intimate =
friends=20
only, one whereof you need not at all question but that I reckon =
you.&#8221;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>While my mind is already suspicious of =
cryptographic=20
allusions in this third manuscript by cause of my observations made in =
the first=20
two books, I am also aware that no secret remains a secret, and if there =
is any=20
truth in my presumption that Agrippa had cryptology in mind when he =
wrote this=20
work, that proof would become evident in works written by colleagues and =
later=20
authors who were privy to the information.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Here I present but a brief portion of that proof, for your =
liesure.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The first suspicion of cryptographic intent is to =
be found in=20
a device printed in Vigenere&#8217;s voluminous &#8220;Traicte des =
Chiffres&#8221; and again=20
reprinted in Selenus.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>This device=20
consists of four lines drawn in such a fashion as to divide a square =
into nine=20
parts, precisely the fashion of the ancient game now called =
&#8220;tic-tac-toe&#8221;.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In each of the nine squares is =
written=20
three letters of the alphabet.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>To=20
represent a character of the alphabet, one draws the form of the square =
and a=20
conciliatory note to distinguish which of the three letters is intended =
from=20
that square.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Afterwards =
the squares=20
may be connected together to form unintelligible symbols.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Agrippa illustrates the =
identical device=20
and its similar use under the guise of forming sigils from the names of=20
angels.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The =
&#8220;latinizing&#8221; of the=20
device by Vigenere cannot mask its form and operation, that being =
virtually=20
identical to the form expressed in&nbsp;Agrippa.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>There are also several tables cabalistic to be =
found in=20
Agrippa&#8217;s third book, all written with Hebrew characters in =
traditional fashion,=20
adding to their obscurity&nbsp;it would seem.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It&#8217;s what Agrippa says =
of these tables=20
that is of importance to the connectivity I seek:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;Abbas Tritemius writ to Maximilian Cesar a =
Special Treatise=20
concerning these, which he that will thoroughly examine, may from thence =
draw=20
great knowledge of future times.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =

</SPAN>Over the twelve Signs set these, viz. over Aries Malchidael, over =
Taurus=20
Asmodel; over Gemini Ambriel; over Cancer Muriel; over Leo Verchiel; =
over Virgo=20
Hamaliel; over Libra Zuriel; over Scorpio Barchiel; over Sagittarius =
Advachiel;=20
over Capricorn Hanael; over Aquarius Cambiel; over Pisces =
Barchiel.&#8221;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>In one fell swoop Agrippa firmly connects his work =
to=20
Trithemius, intimates the secret intent of his diagrams, and verifies =
the=20
authenticity of the 12 Trithemian modes that went unprinted until =
Selenus,=20
adding that Trithemius' dedication of&nbsp;the unprinted work was to =
Emperor=20
Maximilian.&nbsp; (No small piece of history).&nbsp;&nbsp;This angelic =
sequence=20
may also be extracted from one of Agrippa&#8217;s tables, giving us an =
idea that=20
Trithemius may have also used a systematic method of extraction for the =
order of=20
other angel names used in his books of steganography and =
polygraphy.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>(As I have discovered in =
Agrippa, the=20
angel names may have no meaning in Hebrew, but when transliterated to =
Greek or=20
Latin characters by the alphabet presented in the &#8220;Ars =
Memoriae&#8221; scheme, the=20
meaning readily becomes apparent through&nbsp;another language.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Something to consider with =
Trithemius &#8211;=20
linguistic methods of concealment, as it were.)</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Extracting these 12 angel names also verifies =
Agrippa&#8217;s=20
consonantal order of the Hebrew characters according to the alphabet of =
his &#8220;Ars=20
Memoriae&#8221; system, the first of several demonstrations that =
Trithemius was=20
working off the same set of tables and identical philosophical system as =
that=20
presented in the manuscripts of his friend, Agrippa.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>While the Hebrew representation is somewhat obscure =
to the=20
modern reader, Agrippa makes it clear that his&nbsp;intent is for the =
reader to=20
broaden his horizon somewhat:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;Of this calculatory Art Alfonsus Cyprius =
once wrote, and I=20
know who els and also fitted it to Latine Characters; [read: Trithemius] =
But=20
because the letters of every tongue, as we shewed in the first book, =
have in=20
their number, order, and figure a Celestial and Divine originall, =
[relating to=20
the alphabet of the &#8220;Ars Memoriae&#8221;] I shall easily grant =
this calculation=20
concerning the names of the spirits to be made not only by Hebrew =
letters, but=20
also Chaldean, and Arabick, Aegyptian, Greek, Latine, and any other, the =
tables=20
being rightly made after the imitation of the presidents.&#8221; =
[&#8220;presidents&#8221; in=20
Agrippa&#8217;s meaning relate to the alphabetical division of =
consonants and vowels=20
as represented by the zodiac, the planets, and the elements.]</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Agrippa presents a table titled &#8220;The Right =
Table of the=20
Commutations&#8221;, which is the Hebrew version of Trithemius&#8217; =
now famous and=20
historical&nbsp;polyalphabetic table in the Latin alphabet.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The table written in reverse =
is entitled=20
&#8220;The Averse Table of the Commutations&#8221;, and may be found in =
Latin form in both=20
Porta and Vigenere.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Presented as=20
cabbalistic tables they are indeed mysterious, but working the angelic =
names=20
through the tables sheds some light on their operation.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Another set of tables demonstrates a jump in =
cryptographic=20
philosophy &#8211; &#8220;The Table of the Combinations of Ziruph&#8221; =
and &#8220;The Rational Table=20
of Ziruph&#8221; are identical in operation to those submitted by Abram =
Colorno in his=20
&#8220;Scotographia Italica&#8221;, and touched on by Vigenere.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>That both Colorno and Agrippa =
saw these=20
as cryptographic instruments makes one reconsider the age of the systems =
being=20
described.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Two other tables that I find of extreme interest in =

connection to outside authority and substantiation are the tables which =
separate=20
the Hebrew alphabet, the first into the signs of the planets (vowels) =
and the=20
second into the signs of the zodiac (consonants), following =
Agrippa&#8217;s alphabetic=20
scheme presented in his &#8220;Ars Memoriae&#8221; system.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Vigenere presents examples of=20
enciphering with only vowels, and presents the &#8220;planet&#8221; =
table in Latin=20
characters and Latin order with the planetary signs being removed.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>This correlation between =
tables may be=20
passed off to coincidence, if it weren&#8217;t for Vigenere&#8217;s =
representation of the=20
table of<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>the =
&#8220;zodiac&#8221;!</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>In this instance Vigenere does something that =
cannot escape=20
notice.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>He presents his =
table in=20
Latin characters and without the planetary signs, even reducing the =
columns from=20
12 to 11 for some unexplained reason.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>What Vigenere DID NOT do was change the order of the Hebrew =
alphabet to=20
match the order of the Latin alphabet.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Vigenere presents his Modified table in the EXACT order of the =
Hebrew=20
characters as they are represented in Agrippa&#8217;s manuscript.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>While it&#8217;s not my intent =
to build a case=20
for plagiarism,<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>it does =
appear that=20
Vigenere attempted to conceal his source when presenting these systems =
for=20
consideration.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; The lack of =
mention of the=20
original author&nbsp;</SPAN>can&nbsp;easily be attributed to the veil of =
secrecy=20
Agrippa demands of his disciples and Vigeneres' desire to honor that=20
demand.&nbsp; It should not be forgotten that some of these mechanisms =
had=20
already filtered their way into Porta's understanding and printed works, =
though=20
if he understood their origin, he did an extremely good job of =
concealing that=20
fact.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>What I present to you here in the spirit of shared =
interests=20
is but a glimpse at the many and various correlations the works of =
Agrippa=20
represent, establishing a solid link between the cabalistic and esoteric =
art,=20
and those instruments that are ascribed to the birth of modern =
cryptography and=20
our understanding of the art of &#8220;alphabetical and =
mathematical&#8221;=20
concealment.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Agrippa&#8217;s Three Books=20
of Occult Philosophy may represent the &#8220;missing link&#8221;, the =
&#8220;keystone&#8221; document=20
that fills an historical void of the progression of thought and learning =
as it=20
relates to the art of cryptography and science.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>His writings draw much older =
and much=20
forgotten manuscripts&nbsp;into the light, causing us to view them in =
His new=20
light, as works of cryptography, with hidden intent.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>One can only hope, but =
perhaps we=20
have just stumbled onto the playing field of the &#8220;secrets of the =
ancients&#8221;, and=20
if so, we may find that our history of science and discovery may have =
many=20
chapters still left unwritten.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>There is a substantial quote to be made here from =
Agrippa=20
relating to these matters, but I either cannot find it or cannot sort it =
out=20
from the hundreds of markings I&#8217;ve made on his pages.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It tells us that he is the =
light and the=20
way, and the guide to what we seek, that only through his eyes may we =
attain the=20
secrets of the &#8220;ancients&#8221;.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I have demonstrated to you in short and abbreviated =
discourse=20
the information to be received from Agrippa&#8217;s writings, the =
content of which he=20
admits and affirms in many and various places.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>What I cannot tell you is how =
far these=20
revelations move back the hands of time in regard to what we consider=20
&#8220;cryptographic&#8221;.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Is it possible=20
that we may discover secrets hidden in polyalphabetic cipher as far back =
as 350=20
C.E.?<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Were digraphic =
systems=20
understood and in operation as far back as 300 B.C.E.?<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Your guess is as good as=20
mine.&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">In light of these =
revelations=20
o</SPAN>ur collective understanding may be in need of slight =
modification.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>What is certain is that Agrippa&#8217;s works will =
serve as a major=20
connection between ancient and modern ideals and concepts.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>How far back in time this =
carries us is=20
limited only by our imagination and our willingness to accept that =
something=20
great remains to be discovered in the writings and teachings of our =
ancestors,=20
no matter how distant.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>As always, comments are appreciated.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Merry Christmas.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Glen</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>(The ARS MEMORIAE as an addendum:)</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>In his Three Books of Occult Philosophy, Agrippa =
went to=20
great lengths to<BR>describe a system by which the very words one writes =
convey=20
a message,<BR>saying that this message could be read even if the =
manuscripts=20
were<BR>translated into any one of the three primary languages, Greek, =
Hebrew,=20
and<BR>Latin.&nbsp; Portions of the system are scattered across the =
three books=20
for<BR>concealment, and it is only when you diagram all the things said =
in=20
the<BR>books that the system reveals itself.<BR><BR>Agrippa uses an =
alphabet=20
that is reprinted by Vigenere, Porta and Selenus,<BR>and also used by=20
Trithemius.&nbsp; This relates the alphabet mnemonically to the<BR>12 =
zodiac=20
signs, the 7 planets, the 4 elements and the spirit (soul). Zodiac<BR>is =

consonant, planets are vowels, and the remaining letters are the =
elements<BR>and=20
the spirit.&nbsp; Their order appears just as they were taught in the=20
seven<BR>sciences of the time, and the entire system is based on the=20
mnemonic<BR>teaching that was so prevelant:<BR><BR>B aries<BR>C =
taurus<BR>D=20
gemini<BR>F cancer<BR>G leo<BR>L virgo<BR>M libra<BR>N scorpio<BR>P=20
sagittarius<BR>R capricorn<BR>S aquarius<BR>T pisces<BR>A saturn<BR>E=20
jupiter<BR>I mars<BR>O sun<BR>U venus<BR>I&nbsp; (cons.) mercury<BR>V =
(cons.)=20
moon<BR>K earth<BR>Q water<BR>X air<BR>Z fire<BR>H spirit<BR><BR>Parts =
of the=20
body are also mnemonically presented from their order of<BR>teaching in=20
medicine, and assigned influences from the zodiac, the planets,<BR>and =
the=20
elements.&nbsp; Names of birds, plants, animals, etc. are also =
assigned<BR>these=20
celestial virtues and remembered in their order against this =
scale.<BR>(see=20
Pliny)&nbsp; In fact, if you go back to the teachings of the "ancients", =

you<BR>will find an order prevalent in the books, probably because there =
were=20
few<BR>textbooks and it was important to remember things in an order =
that=20
allowed<BR>for easy retention.<BR><BR>Agrippa takes this mnemonic =
teaching one=20
step further.&nbsp; As an example,<BR>Saturn has the lapwing as its =
bird, the=20
cuttlefish as its fish, the mole as<BR>its mammal, lead as its metal, =
onyx as=20
its stone, the right foot as a body<BR>part, the right ear as its head =
part, and=20
the color of blue, with many more<BR>distinctions to be found in the =
texts=20
relating to Saturn.&nbsp; Saturn also<BR>equates to the letter=20
A.<BR><BR>Agrippa's system is based on his observation that when you =
write the=20
word<BR>"lapwing" you are also representing the letter A.&nbsp; When you =
write=20
the word<BR>"lead" you are also saying the letter A, etc.&nbsp; So if I =
were to=20
write:<BR><BR>"He has the grace of a lapwing, the swiftness of a =
cuttlefish, and=20
the<BR>cunning of a mole, but his right ear has all the tone of a leaden =

vessel,<BR>and his right foot knows not how to command the dance." I =
would have=20
just<BR>written the letter A six times in a row.&nbsp; This is the =
simple=20
version alluded<BR>to in book one.<BR><BR>Agrippa is well versed in the =
mnemonic=20
art of teaching, and he knows that<BR>all things have three aspects of=20
consideration, those being the physical,<BR>the intellectual, and the =
spiritual=20
(or other words similar to these that<BR>divide things by three =
virtues.)&nbsp;=20
To expand his system he takes these<BR>aspects into account, =
demonstrating that=20
the metal "lead" can signify three<BR>different letters, depending on =
its=20
aspect.&nbsp; So if we use the words in order<BR>of aspect, using the =
phyical=20
meaning first, the intellectual meaning second,<BR>and the spiritual =
meaning=20
lastly, or whatever order you may wish to<BR>establish, we can expand =
our=20
vocabulary to hundreds of words from the seven<BR>sciences and still =
be<BR>able=20
to write our epistle with ease.&nbsp; He notes that you can use any form =

of<BR>the word as long as the root of the word is maintained.<BR><BR>It =
is said=20
by Agrippa that this is how the alchemists hide their true<BR>formulae =
in=20
voluminous allegorical works.&nbsp; That is no small =
statement!<BR>Vigenere=20
calls the alphabet "alchemical" without further comment, which may<BR>be =
an=20
acknowledgement of Agrippa's claim.<BR><BR>I hope this is of some small =
use to=20
you in your consideration of history,<BR>and I would appreciate any =
comments you=20
may have on this.<BR><BR>Glen<BR>&nbsp;<?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =
=3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C06B77.011C8360--

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 20:13:32 2000
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Message-ID: <3A42AADA.BF450144@micro-net.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:14:02 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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Jim Reeds wrote:
> 
> Yesterday's Le Monde apparently had an article about the
> VMS:
> 
>   L'indchiffrable manuscrit Voynich rsiste toujours
>   au dcryptage

	Good grief, Jim!  They plagiarized the abstract on
your VMs web page!!!

	And there's this:

> Certains y ont vu... l'histoire d'Elisabeth Bathory, aristocrate hongroise de la fin du
> XVIe sicle, surnomme la  Comtesse rouge  parce qu'elle avait la rputation de
> faire enlever et gorger des jeunes filles, afin de prendre des bains de sang censs
> lui conserver sa beaut pour l'ternit. 

	What a coup, Jacques!!! You got one of the world's
most renowned newspapers to take your Elizabeth Bathory
theory seriously!!! BRAVO!

	Finally, and most interestingly:

> Pour cela, prconise Jacques Guy, seule une tude statistique
> automatique du langage Voynich conviendrait.  Entre 1962 et 1974, un linguiste
> sovitique du nom de Soukhotine avait invent des algorithmes intressants grce
> auxquels il tait possible, avec un texte continu, rdig dans une langue inconnue,
> de sparer les voyelles des consonnes, de trouver les coupures entre les mots et
> mme d'effectuer un dbut de classification grammaticale. On peut aller trs loin
> dans le dchiffrement par des mthodes purement mcanistiques. Il suffirait
> maintenant qu'un centre de recherches sorte ces algorithmes de l'oubli et les fasse
> tourner sur un simple PC.  

	So if we applied *all* of Sukhotin's algorithms, we'd
be able to solve the VMs.  Seriously now.  I want to
hear more about this!

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 21 22:11:22 2000
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Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:12:31 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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To: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
Cc: VOYNICH-L <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: Re: Article in Le Monde
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>         So if we applied *all* of Sukhotin's algorithms, we'd
> be able to solve the VMs.  Seriously now.  I want to
> hear more about this!


Not now Dennis, I just got back from Bali at 7 am Melbourne
time, having left at 3am (midnight Bali time), and this is
the worst jet lag I have ever suffered. The buggers fed us
upon boarding and woke us up 3 hours later for breakfast
and landing. Arrgghh. I'm glad  Le Monde did not stuff up
to any extent worth bickering about. Their writer was an
hour and a half  on the phone -- I was very surprised that
they'd bother calling me in Indonesia. If it makes it to
Weekly Selection of Le Monde, perhaps we'll get some more
exposure.

Frogguy

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 22 03:31:23 2000
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From: "Anders, Claus" <canders@debis.com>
To: "'voynich@rand.org'" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?AW=3A_=E2=CA=E4=B7=ECI=C7=BB=EAV=C9V=C9X=C9e=C9?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C4=C7T=ECo=E8=CD=C7=B5=C7=D0=C7_=03?=
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Dear all,
a last word about the above spam.As Japanese is a hobby of mine, I did a
rough translation of the mail. It is about a subscription of an information
service of trade business with insider information. The mailer wants you to
subscribe to his information system and he will reveill (sp?) "top position"
information in order to establish certainity about the profits of above
business. 
The contents of the letter is really weird, have nothing to do with voynich
(no encrytion at all) and touches some legal/law stuff, which I can't
understand (the Japanese is understandable, but not the meaning).
So I consider the translation as an exercise.
All the Best
Claus 
PS. excuse please all my spelling errors, I know how to write, but I never
check spelling in mails;-)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 22 21:59:33 2000
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Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:59:46 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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	
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	Normally it's best to ignore spammers.   However, with
all the language experts we have on this list, surely
someone could write a reply that would puncture this
guy's "face" severely.  Any takers?

Dennis

"Anders, Claus" wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> a last word about the above spam.As Japanese is a hobby of mine, I did a
> rough translation of the mail. It is about a subscription of an information
> service of trade business with insider information. The mailer wants you to
> subscribe to his information system and he will reveill (sp?) "top position"
> information in order to establish certainity about the profits of above
> business.
> The contents of the letter is really weird, have nothing to do with voynich
> (no encrytion at all) and touches some legal/law stuff, which I can't
> understand (the Japanese is understandable, but not the meaning).
> So I consider the translation as an exercise.
> All the Best
> Claus
> PS. excuse please all my spelling errors, I know how to write, but I never
> check spelling in mails;-)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 22 22:05:27 2000
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Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:06:04 -0600
From: Dennis <ixohoxi@micro-net.com>
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References: <1001221145736.ZM2707982@fry.research.att.com> <3A42AADA.BF450144@micro-net.com> <3A42C69F.78999BFC@alphalink.com.au>
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	Well, when you get rested up, I'd like to hear about
this.  Rene remarked a while ago that if someone has an
idea, he/she has to do most of the work themselves. 
The 1st and 2nd Study Groups had Friedmann directing
things.  What if we farmed out Sukhotin's ideas to
specific individuals?  We might make better progress.


Jacques Guy wrote:
> 
> >         So if we applied *all* of Sukhotin's algorithms, we'd
> > be able to solve the VMs.  Seriously now.  I want to
> > hear more about this!
> 
> Not now Dennis, I just got back from Bali at 7 am Melbourne
> time, having left at 3am (midnight Bali time), and this is
> the worst jet lag I have ever suffered. The buggers fed us
> upon boarding and woke us up 3 hours later for breakfast
> and landing. 

	Even so, your getting them to accept the Elizabeth
Bathory theory was quite a coup.  But then again,
perhaps not.  I've always wondered whether the
Elizabeth Bathory theory owed an unacknowledged debt to
Levitov.  (Hmmm...  maybe we need a Gilles de Rais or
Vlad IV theory...)

Dennis

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 22 22:19:02 2000
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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:20:30 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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Subject: Re: AW: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E2=CA=E4=B7=ECI=C7=BB=EAV=C9V=C9X=C9e=C9=C4=C7T=ECo=E8=CD=C7=B5=C7=D0=C7?= 
	
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Dennis wrote:
> 
>         Normally it's best to ignore spammers.   However, with
> all the language experts we have on this list, surely
> someone could write a reply that would puncture this
> guy's "face" severely.  Any takers?

No sense in that: it's all automated. You don't puncture
a spam-bot's face. There were 150 messages or so in my
mailbox, two thirds were spam, or ads, one even from
OneWorld offering me to transfer my rongorongo site
from Easyspace to OneWorld (I could save up to $30 
a year!) since my subscription was due for renewal 
soon. Most originated from Taiwan or China, with 
a subject line in Chinese. I got five offers to upgrade
my OS to a more recent one, with Win2000 going for 
US$20 -- the spambot not having figured out that
I was using Linux. I say, ignore the buggers.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 23 01:45:24 2000
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 <3A441522.67B2B208@micro-net.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:44:01 -0800
To: voynich@rand.org
From: Clay Holden <cholden@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: voynich list SPAM 	
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Jacques Guy wrote:

> I say, ignore the buggers.

It is much more satisfying to get their accounts shut down by their ISPs
for violating "Terms of Service", regardless of how soon many of them
spring up again elsewhere. Some ISPs also fine them $200 per complaint.

I recommend http:/spamcop.net as a quick and easy way to find the actual
source of the spam (portions of the headers are usually forged) and report
the spammers to their service providers.

Once you get a few emails from the abuse departments thanking you for your
report and affirming that the spammers' accounts have been terminated, you
may think it's worth the effort.

Clay

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 23 09:30:11 2000
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Subject: Re: voynich list SPAM 
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b669f7f0fd4e@[207.172.123.54]> from Clay Holden at "Dec 22, 2000 10:44:01 pm"
To: cholden@dnai.com (Clay Holden)
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Clay Holden wrote:
> It is much more satisfying to get their accounts shut down by their ISPs
> for violating "Terms of Service", regardless of how soon many of them
> spring up again elsewhere. Some ISPs also fine them $200 per complaint.
> 
> I recommend http:/spamcop.net as a quick and easy way to find the actual
> source of the spam (portions of the headers are usually forged) and report
> the spammers to their service providers.

While ignoring them is a viable alternative, I have to concur here with the utility of
SpamCop. They do the job and are relatively painless to use.

-Adams

-- 
====================================================
Adams Douglas, San Diego, CA   Adams@Douglas.net
http://Adams.Douglas.net/
PGP Public Keys: http://Adams.Douglas.net/pgpkey.txt
<adamsd@crash.cts.com> 084E B706 E8D5 4C2E 1A43  ECE2 6B96 8018 6238 197A
UTM:11S0487200 3623500 MGRS-2:11SMS872235 (100-meter)

     "I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking 
      about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; 
      but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in 
      numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."
                              - William Thomson (Lord Kelvin)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 23 15:06:17 2000
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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:05:10 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: On the word length distribution
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Hi folks, Merry Holidays to all...

While reviewing my "word grammar" write-up, I noticed another amazing
statistical coincidence in the distribution of words (not tokens)
according to length. I posted a note about it on my Voynich page:

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/00-12-21-word-length-distr/

Hoping that it is not another false alarm, it looks like an important
clue about the nature of the "code". (And another nail in the coffin
of the Chinese theory, *sigh*.)

If I read the clue correctly, the ball is back in the cryptographers'
court. Have a busy holiday week! (But hurry: the Millenium is only a
week away, and Revelations that are not received by the deadline may
be rejected independently of their merit. 8-)

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 23 15:21:43 2000
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Message-ID: <01C06CE3.148DFEC0.djl@montana.com>
From: djl <djl@montana.com>
To: "'stolfi@ic.unicamp.br'" <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>,
        "voynich@rand.org" <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: On the word length distribution
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:20:11 -0700
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Marvelous, Jorge!  How about a coin-flipping hoax?  or a random generator of some kind to build a hoax?
Anyway, Happy Hols to all of you out there 
Don

     Don Latham
     Six Mile Systems/ Lightning Forensics
     djl@montana.com
     POB 460134 
     17850 Six Mile Road
     Huson, MT
     59846
     406-626-4304

   "Never confuse motion with action"
    B Franklin

On Saturday, December 23, 2000 1:05 PM, Jorge Stolfi [SMTP:stolfi@ic.unicamp.br] wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi folks, Merry Holidays to all...
> 
> While reviewing my "word grammar" write-up, I noticed another amazing
> statistical coincidence in the distribution of words (not tokens)
> according to length. I posted a note about it on my Voynich page:
> 
>   http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/00-12-21-word-length-distr/
> 
> Hoping that it is not another false alarm, it looks like an important
> clue about the nature of the "code". (And another nail in the coffin
> of the Chinese theory, *sigh*.)
> 
> If I read the clue correctly, the ball is back in the cryptographers'
> court. Have a busy holiday week! (But hurry: the Millenium is only a
> week away, and Revelations that are not received by the deadline may
> be rejected independently of their merit. 8-)
> 
> All the best,
> 
> --stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 23 16:33:30 2000
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> If I read the clue correctly, the ball is back in the cryptographers'
> court. Have a busy holiday week! (But hurry: the Millenium is only a
> week away, and Revelations that are not received by the deadline may
> be rejected independently of their merit. 8-)

The first question that pops into my head is if the initial characters
in each word
follow a distribution anything like Benfords' law - in base 10, the
proportions are
given by log_10(1 + 1/d) where d = 0..9.

http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~jjh97/suprema/main_page.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/Sn_arc98/6_27_98/mathland.htm

Granted, not all data follows this distribution, but it may at least
help decide what kind
of codebook it is, if it is one.

Derek

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 24 05:56:30 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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Hi all,
I have uploaded a preprint (PDF, 236 KB zipped) of the paper I gave 
at Cambridge on some spectral analysis of the vms . This will be 
published in Cryptologia in the (I think) April issue.
All comments are welcome.

http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/cryptol.zip
Cheers,

Gabriel


From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 24 06:52:58 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 23 Dec 2000, at 18:05, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> While reviewing my "word grammar" write-up, I noticed another amazing
> statistical coincidence in the distribution of words 

The fitting is indeed quite remarkable. Did you try to fit a binomial 
model to other word distributions? (Latin & English?)

Let's suppose that the VMS is based on a nomenclator. Word 
structure could (or should?) be considered arbitrary.
Zipf's law of word frequencies would be maintained, but the length-
frequency law (common words tend to be shorted than the 
uncommon) would probably not (unless the author designs a 
special nomenclator so s/he can save some ink).

So, if the vms is written with a nomenclator, would it be going back 
to the concordances the only viable way to crack it?
Merry Christmas to all,

Gabriel




From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 24 12:47:42 2000
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[ DJL, this is a corrected version of the reply I sent you minutes
  ago. --stolfi ]

Well, on second thoughts, the binomial distribution of word lengths is
a bit less remarkable than what I thought. It will be observed in any
code or spelling system that has the following properties:

  (1) each word has nine distinguished slots;
  
  (2) each slot can be either empty, or filled with one
      different symbol;
      
  (3) all possible choices in (2) result in distinct words.
  
  (4) all possible choices in (2) do occur in the text.
  
Note that we need no assumptions on probabilities,
only on possibilities.

It is not hard to invent nomenclator codes, like the 
example I posted, that obey these rules.  An invented
language with a `logical' vocabulary could also fit.

However, these rules could perhaps be satisfied also by a natural
language with monosyllabic words. The Chinese syllable, for instance,
has six slots --- main consonant, up to 3 vowels, final consonant,
tone --- and, with a suitable spelling system, all of them can be
empty.

Granted, in most natural languages of that kind, each slot can be
filled with one of several distinct symbols, and this variation would
break the binomial distribution. However, if the inventor of the
writing system was a mathematician, he could have chosen to denote
each multi-choice symbol by a combination of several single-choice
slots, just for the sake of symmetry.

Rule (3) too would require some tweaking of the spelling system.
Rule (4) is problematic also, but it seems that monosyllabic languages
actually come pretty close to fulfilling it (i.e., almost every
syllable has at least one common meaning.)  

So perhaps the Chinese theory is not legally dead yet...

    > [Don Latham:] How about a coin-flipping hoax?  
    > or a random generator of some kind to build a hoax?
    
Perhaps, but someone would have to propose a plausible method that
will generate the observed distributions.

To warm things up, here is an obvious idea, which doesn't quite work.
Get nine fair coins, each of them having one side blank, one side
inscribed with a different symbol. To generate the next token, throw
the coins, and write down the symbols that come up on top, in a fixed
order, followed by a fixed marker symbol.

This method will generate all 2^9 zero-one strings, and will indeed
reproduce the binomial word length distribution as seen in the VMS. 
However, each of those combinations will be generated with equal probability,
and therefore the *token* length distribution would be binomial, too
--- which is not what we see in the VMS.

Here is another possible method. Get yourself an ordinary six-sided
die and a paper disk divided into nine sectors, each inscribed with a
different symbol. Begin by placing a black pearl on the first sector. To
generate each letter, throw the die; if you get an even number, copy
the symbol under the pearl. Then, if the outcome was `6', take the pearl back
to sector one, else move it clockwise to the next sector. Then, if the
pearl happens to be on sector one, start a new word. Repeat for the next
letter. (Of course, a black pearl is not really necessary --- a golden
scarab would work just as well.)

This method is almost equivalent to the previous one, except that 
the occasional moves back to sector one will truncate some of the 
words, and result in a *token* length distribution biased towards
short words.  On the other hand, if the text is long enough, all 
2^9 subsets of the symbols will be generated, and the distribution
of *word* lengths will be nicely binomial.

This idea requires more analysis, but I really have to go home now.
All the best, and see you next week..

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 24 20:05:55 2000
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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:09:25 -0500
From: John Grove <jgrove@omnisig.com>
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Has anyone been back to Yale's gallery recently?  They've cleaned up
some of their black and white shots and if you zoom in you can see some
new items... check out this page for example
http://highway49.library.yale.edu/PHOTONEG/zoom/z361/z3610578.jpg


Take a look at the object behind the 2nd nymph top left -- it seems to
have a solid center piece like a spinning top.

The 4th nymph's 'crown' is now visible and looks something like four
diamonds in the center.

The 7th nymph's shawl is easily recognizable now also, and the 9th
nymphs hairpiece seems unique too... and her arms are certainly crossed
behind her back.

In the center group, check out the see-through skirt of the kneeling
nymph (on the left side of the page) and once again the object in her
hand seems to have a solid center instead of being a ring. On the right
side of the page the 'hat' should provide some clues to style that
weren't so clear before (not that I can tell exactly what this will tell
us).  


John.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 24 20:34:39 2000
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From: John Grove <jgrove@omnisig.com>
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Well apart from the clear 'cross' on f79r there is another very clear
cross on the top of Libra's queen's crown! You might want to also check
out f116 while you're there -- the details are much clearer than the
copyflo - although once again I don't know if much can be gleaned from
it.

John.

(If you're wondering why I'm perusing the internet on Christmas Eve -
it's because I'm working - er sort of...)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Dec 26 10:24:49 2000
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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 13:22:17 -0200 (EDT)
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: RE: On the word length distribution
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Hi again...

In my last message I described two methods for generating 
random text with the required binomial word-length distribution. 

With the first method (nine coins), the *token* length distribution
would be binomial, too --- which is not what we see.  

The second method (sequential generation of letters, with random
resets) would produce a binomial word distr, and a token distr biased
towards shorter words. Unfortunately, the bias would be excessive:
tokens of length k would be generated with relative probability p**k,
for some p < 1. This is an exponential decay, which is not what we
see. In fact, the VMS token length distribution is still hump-shaped,
with a maximum near 4.5 symbols (just one less than the the word distr
maximum).

So we still lack a plausible mechanism that would generate 
random text with the observed word and token length distributions.

On the other hand, it looks like 
the nomenclator scheme described in the webpage
will produce the required distributions.  Namely,
assign a number to each new word that comes up in the plaintext
(or in some other "practice" text), in sequential 
order; and then encode the numbers in the `bit position'
notation.

Note also that the `bit position' notation is not that exotic. The
Roman, Greek, and Chinese number systems were essentially like that,
except that they were base-10 instead of base-2. The old English
capacity system was both `bit position' and binary:

  pint
  quart
  quart + pint
  pottle
  pottle + pint
  pottle + quart
  pottle + quart + pint
  gallon
  gallon + pint
 
etc.

Now for something weird: I had learned about the English binary
capacity system, many years ago, from Knuth's Art of Computer
Programming (vol.2, sec. 4.1); but I had to look it up again since I
had forgotten the word for 1/2-gallon. While searching for "capacity"
in the index, I ran into a reference to "Caramuel y Lobkowitz, Juan".

Now, this guy was a Spanish bishop, apparently sitting at Naples
(which then was a Spanish posession), who corresponded extensively
with Marci and Kircher about exotic languages and cryptography, and
even wrote Marci's eulogy. Small world, this one....

The weird part is that he is referenced by Knuth in the same section
as the English capacity table, in fact right in the next paragraph.
According to Knuth, the first published description of the binary
number system (and number systems in other bases) was a little-known
work by this fellow.

Is the Millennium coming, or what?  8-)

In fact, now that the thing came up: among the many letters by
Caramuel that I saw in the Carteggio Kircheriano site, I recall one
which did seem to have a list of binary numbers. I will try to find
the URL...

For the record, Knuth's reference for Caramuel's binary number paper
is "Mathesis biceps 1" (Campaniae, 1670), 45-48.

All the best,

--stolfi


From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Dec 26 17:49:57 2000
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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 14:47:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Christian symbols
To: voynich@rand.org
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I hope you all had a Merry Christmas,
and wish you all a good start to the new 
millennium.

Quite a few good E-mails there. This one I cannot
resist responding to immediately.

--- John Grove wrote:

> Well apart from the clear 'cross' on f79r there is
> another very clear
> cross on the top of Libra's queen's crown! 

I am pretty sure, and think that I can make a good
case, that this cross represents the star Regulus.
This is part of my 'the zodiac pages make sense'
theory, where I still cannot decide whether this
section represent a real and accurate list of
astronomical 'phenomena' or merely a realistic
looking one concocted by someone who had both
astronomical knowledge and a bit of a mental
twist.

Cheers, Rene

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

From jim@mail.rand.org  Tue Dec 26 21:19:42 2000
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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:19:30 -0500
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John Grove wrote:

> Take a look at the object behind the 2nd nymph top left -- it seems to
> have a solid center piece like a spinning top.
>

That object looks like it might be a spindle, a tools for twisting yarn into
thread.

Bruce

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 04:08:26 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:01:36 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Christian symbols
To: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
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Hello Rene,
     Happy Holidays to all. This is quite interesting to correlate the
cross on top of the Libra queen's crown to the star Regulus. So far I
have found meaning and purpose to everything that I can interpret in the
Voynich manuscript; however, I haven't yet spent much time analyzing in
detail the crowns, hair styles, gowns, held objects, and body language
of the ladies. Associating a cross with a star is interesting. One thing
that I have learned is that I have yet to find any errors in the
manuscript, except for one that the author of the manuscript corrected,
which indicates that the author was being very careful and the contents
have real meaning. Therefore, the 'cross' on the crown has real
significance. This cross does look like a cross with the naked eye;
however, we need to be careful, because when examined under a magnifying
glass, it could also be interpreted as a T shaped cross instead of a +
shaped cross which could change its meaning completly (quite a bit of
this manuscript is very difficult to read and interpret). In addition,
the cross is placed over two arches within the crown. This is
significant and needs to be understood. There is also a concern that the
Regulus star may be more closely associated with Leo than Libra, so I
would want to know what the connection is with Libra. Astrology does
have meaning in the Voynich manuscript, though probably only as much was
borrowed from Astrology as was needed. I would be interested in hearing
more about the Regulus star. Thank you.

Regards,
Dana Scott

Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> I hope you all had a Merry Christmas,
> and wish you all a good start to the new
> millennium.
>
> Quite a few good E-mails there. This one I cannot
> resist responding to immediately.
>
> --- John Grove wrote:
>
> > Well apart from the clear 'cross' on f79r there is
> > another very clear
> > cross on the top of Libra's queen's crown!
>
> I am pretty sure, and think that I can make a good
> case, that this cross represents the star Regulus.
> This is part of my 'the zodiac pages make sense'
> theory, where I still cannot decide whether this
> section represent a real and accurate list of
> astronomical 'phenomena' or merely a realistic
> looking one concocted by someone who had both
> astronomical knowledge and a bit of a mental
> twist.
>
> Cheers, Rene
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 09:01:49 2000
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    > [Rene:] I'm having trouble to access your pages.

Indeed we had a power failure on Christmas evening, and 
yesterday our building's router blew a fuse.  Try now,
it seems to be working...

All the best, 

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 09:03:19 2000
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From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Christian symbols
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Dana F. Scott wrote:

> This is quite interesting to correlate the
> cross on top of the Libra queen's crown to the star
> Regulus. 

[...]

> This cross does look like a cross with
> the naked eye;

[...]

> In addition, the cross is placed over two arches
> within the crown. This is significant and needs to
> be understood. There is also a concern that the
> Regulus star may be more closely associated with
> Leo than Libra, so I would want to know what the
> connection is with Libra. 

Correct.
I propose that the crown refers to Regulus, since
Regulus means 'little king'. The two other crowned
nymphs are in Leo and in Cancer. These are roughly
in the right area of the zodiac. (I lack a detailed
explanation why they are where they are).

The two arches with the star on top in my opinion
indicate the culmination of the star Regulus.
This is the point where it is highest above the
horizon, due south. The arches indicate the path
of the star. Culmination occurs in Libra, i.e.
when one particular degree of Libra rises. Which
degree exactly depends on the century and on the
geographic latitude of the observer.

There is quite a bit more in the zodiac illustrations
that makes sense, but I am aware of the Rorschach
effect so I do realise that some of it is perhaps
only imaginary. I still need to figure out what.

Dana, I have to apologise for not having responded
in detail to your proposed decryption of the MS.
I must say that I share Jorge Stolfi's view, in
the sense that you haven't provided us with anything
concrete. (Which is in a sense what he meant with
'not falsifiable')
Please do have a look at the criteria for an 
acceptable solution on Gabriel Landini's web page.
While these may not be perfect, it should give you
an idea of what you would have to do to convince
others of the correctness of your solution.

Kind regards, Rene

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 09:11:24 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:12:47 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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I received it today. A (very) good thing is that  the
article, p.26, rates a front-page introduction, 
half-way down column 5, about 3 inches tall, with
a picture of the sunflowers. There was a handwritten
note from P.Barthlmy saying "La rdaction en chef
du Monde a trouv le sujet  passionnant". Perhaps
it will make it  to the "slection hebdomadaire",
but I am  pessimistic: the science articles in the
weekly selection are normally half a page; this is
a full page. We shall see.

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 09:26:33 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:28:05 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au>
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Status: OR

Tune in to alt.destroy.microsoft or alt.comp.virus
and take a look at the posts by "Anonymous" and
"No User".

What are they?  Gibberish or coded messages
(steganographic I guess)?

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 10:02:12 2000
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Message-ID: <3A4A0442.79F179AF@voynich.nu>
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:01:22 +0000
From: Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>
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Stolfi's succinct discussion of his word length analysis is truly
fascinating.
There are many ways in which a binomial word length distribution could
be the result of some 'chance' process like tossing a coin.
This would go a long way towards explaining the paradox highlighted in
my 'digraph entrpy vs. word entropy' page. And one or two other things.

Jorge, do I understand correctly that you used the Currier alphabet 'as
is'?
This is of course a bit of a problem since it seems reasonable to assume
that
the strings of C's should perhaps not represent multiple characters (or,

conversely, the strings of I's should).  And the peculiar role of
word-initial
4 is problematic too. Not by itself, but due to the fact that is is
essentially
always followed by an O. If the close fit vanishes if one uses the
FSG alphabet (ignore Eva in this context), then the 'coincidence option'

gains some ground.

This is definitely worth a much closer look.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 10:39:18 2000
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From: Claus_Anders@t-online.de (Claus Anders)
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: RE: On the word length distribution: Juan Caramuel y Lobkowitz
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:38:01 +0100
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Status: O

Hi everybody,
another interesting matter:
"Spanish ecclesiastic and writer; b. at Madrid, 23 May, 1606; d. at
Vigevano, 8 September, 1682. He was a precocious child, early delving into
serious problems in mathematics and even publishing astronomical tables in
his tenth year. After receiving a superficial education at college, where
his unusual ability brought rapid advancement, this prodigy turned his
attention to the Asiatic languages, especially Chinese. He was received into
the Cistercian Order at the monastery of La Espina, in the Diocese of
Palencia, and after ordination entered upon a singularly varied and
brilliant career. His sermons attracted the favourable attention of the
Infante Ferdinand, Governor of the Low Countries, while he was attached to
the monastery of Dunes in Flanders, and in 1638 he was honoured with the
degree of Doctor of Theology by the University of Louvain. When he was
obliged to leave the Palatinate, the King of Spain made him his envoy to the
court of the Emperor Ferdinand III. He was in turn Abbot of Melrose
(Scotland), Abbot-Superior of the Benedictines of Vienna, and grand-vicar to
the Archbishop of Prague. In 1648, when the Swedes attacked Prague, he armed
and led a band of ecclesiastics who did yeoman service in the defence of the
city. His bravery on this occasion merited for him a collar of gold from the
emperor. Soon after he became Bishop of Konigratz, then Archbishop of
Otranto, and at his death was Bishop of Vigevano.
His books are even more numerous than his titles and his varied
achievements; for, according to Paquot, he published no less than 262 works
on grammar, poetry, oratory, mathematics, astronomy, physics, politics,
canon law, logic, metaphysics, theology and asceticism. But he produced
little that is of permanent value. He loved to defend novel theories, and in
"Theologia moralis ad prima atque clarissima principia reducta" (Louvain,
1643) tried to solve theological problems by mathematical rules. Some of his
moral opinions gained for him from St. Alphonsus Liguori the title of
"Prince of the Laxists"
Look at these key words: Chinese ,Prague, Astrony Grammar etc.
Seemed to be an interesting guy, who would have love the VMS (or did he?)
;-)
Cheers and a Happy New Year
Claus

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 10:42:18 2000
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From: Rene Zandbergen <rene@voynich.nu>
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Stolfi also wrote:

> Well, on second thoughts, the binomial distribution of word
> lengths is a bit less remarkable than what I thought. It will
> be observed in any code or spelling system that has the
> following properties:

> (1) each word has nine distinguished slots;

>  (2) each slot can be either empty, or filled with one
> different symbol;

> (3) all possible choices in (2) result in distinct words.

> (4) all possible choices in (2) do occur in the text.

>  Note that we need no assumptions on probabilities,
> only on possibilities.

I haven't been able to give this too much thought yet, but
shouldn't there be some constraint on the  probabilities
in order to have the peak in the middle? Also, I think that in
(2) it should be allowed to have various different symbols
in each slot (e.g. <empty>, Eva-ch or Eva-sh).

Also, having fewer slots, where some can contain 0, 1 or
2 letters could result in a binomial ditribution, so my doubt
about the dependence of initial 4- on following -O- is
unfounded.

Indeed, I would not at all be surprised if the VMs contained
nothing but numbers. Numbers would make a lot of sense
for the labels near the zodiac nymphs, and these do fit in
the standard word paradigms.

Furthermore, having a binomial word length distribution
but not a binomial token length distribution is completely
logical if the text is a word for word encoding of some
plaintext.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 15:21:08 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:41:35 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Christian symbols
To: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org, AFScott@aol.com
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Thank you for your comments concerning Regulus. I am pleased to see that
you have a focused interest on the Astrological content within the
Voynich manuscript. It is a very important aspect in the overall
analysis.

I agree with you and Jorge Stolfi that my interpretation of the text in
the manuscript needs to be substantiated with supporting evidence. This
will probably prove to be a complex and involved effort concerning the
text. After reading Jorge's suggestions and recommendations, I decided
to take a different approach to analyzing the manuscript, a sort of back
door approach. Over the past couple of month's I have looked at hundreds
of web sites and books for the evidence that is required. In some cases,
I can provide very convincing evidence. In other cases, a best guess
approach seems reasonable. I have decided to go after the 'easy' stuff
first, and have skirted right past most of the text portion of the
manuscript for the time being. With enough evidence, perhaps we can come
to a reasonable agreement on who might have written the Voynich
manuscript. I would say that at this point with what I have seen, I am
more than 90% certain that I know who wrote the manuscript and where and
when it was written, but first I need to lay the groundwork and show you
the proof that you demand and allow you to scrutinze what I have to
offer.

Regards,
Dana Scott

Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> Dana F. Scott wrote:
>
> > This is quite interesting to correlate the
> > cross on top of the Libra queen's crown to the star
> > Regulus.
>
> [...]
>
> > This cross does look like a cross with
> > the naked eye;
>
> [...]
>
> > In addition, the cross is placed over two arches
> > within the crown. This is significant and needs to
> > be understood. There is also a concern that the
> > Regulus star may be more closely associated with
> > Leo than Libra, so I would want to know what the
> > connection is with Libra.
>
> Correct.
> I propose that the crown refers to Regulus, since
> Regulus means 'little king'. The two other crowned
> nymphs are in Leo and in Cancer. These are roughly
> in the right area of the zodiac. (I lack a detailed
> explanation why they are where they are).
>
> The two arches with the star on top in my opinion
> indicate the culmination of the star Regulus.
> This is the point where it is highest above the
> horizon, due south. The arches indicate the path
> of the star. Culmination occurs in Libra, i.e.
> when one particular degree of Libra rises. Which
> degree exactly depends on the century and on the
> geographic latitude of the observer.
>
> There is quite a bit more in the zodiac illustrations
> that makes sense, but I am aware of the Rorschach
> effect so I do realise that some of it is perhaps
> only imaginary. I still need to figure out what.
>
> Dana, I have to apologise for not having responded
> in detail to your proposed decryption of the MS.
> I must say that I share Jorge Stolfi's view, in
> the sense that you haven't provided us with anything
> concrete. (Which is in a sense what he meant with
> 'not falsifiable')
> Please do have a look at the criteria for an
> acceptable solution on Gabriel Landini's web page.
> While these may not be perfect, it should give you
> an idea of what you would have to do to convince
> others of the correctness of your solution.
>
> Kind regards, Rene
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 15:57:48 2000
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From: Claus_Anders@t-online.de (Claus Anders)
To: <voynich@rand.org>
Subject: fudi or the picture on page 84 VMS
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:57:37 +0100
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Today I used my paint program to enhence the picture on page 84 (the number
in the upper right corner says so) and found (as someone else pointed out)
the word "fundi". I think, this is Latin an means "poured" like poured water
in a pool. If this is a coincedence, it is a very strange one. If not, could
it mean, the underlying language is Latin or another Romance language in
whinch "fudi" has a similar meaning ?
Claus

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    > Jorge, do I understand correctly that you used the Currier
    > alphabet 'as is'?

Actually the alphabet I used represented <Ch>>, <Sh>, <CTh>, etc as 
single characters, but each <e> and <i> as an isolated character.
(Thus it is not strictly Currier's --- although he had a code
for <i>, he would use compound codes for <iin> etc.)

To clarify such matters, I have added to the page links to the
relevant files showing the list of words and the factorization
into "letters" which I used.

    > This is of course a bit of a problem since it
    > seems reasonable to assume that the strings of C's should
    > perhaps not represent multiple characters (or,
    > conversely, the strings of I's should).
    
Yes. I did the same computation in terms of the elements of my word paradigm
(where single <e>s are attached to the preceding letter, double
and triple <e>s are counted as single letters, strings of <i> are attached to
the final letter).  Alas, the resulting length distribution is not symmetric,
and does not fit a binomial distribution with any integer N. 

    > And the peculiar role of word-initial 4 is problematic too. Not
    > by itself, but due to the fact that is is essentially always
    > followed by an O.
    
There are all sorts of funny "phonological" rules going on. I am
looking at the set of all words with k letters, for various k, to see
whether there is any pattern that would explain the binomial shape. So
far it is a complete mystery. For instance, here are the 2-letter
words, with their occurrence counts in the (cleaned-up) text:

   23 {k}{y}
    6 {k}{o} 
    2 {k}{l} 

    1 {k}{Sh}
    1 {k}{a} 
    1 {k}{e} 


  115 {CTh}{y}  40 {CKh}{y}  14 {CPh}{y}   6 {CFh}{y} 
   16 {CTh}{o}   5 {CKh}{o}   2 {CPh}{o}  
    1 {CTh}{a}

    1 {CTh}{s}                1 {CKh}{s}   1 {CFh}{s} 
    1 {CTh}{d}
    1 {CTh}{l}

    1 {Ch}{k}        
    3 {Ch}{CKh}      
    4 {Ch}{CTh}     

    1 {Ch}{e}    27 {Sh}{e} 

  152 {Ch}{y}   102 {Sh}{y}
   68 {Ch}{o}   126 {Sh}{o} 
    1 {Ch}{a}     3 {Sh}{a} 

    6 {Ch}{d}     6 {Sh}{d}  
   26 {Ch}{l}     3 {Sh}{l}  
    9 {Ch}{r}     2 {Sh}{r} 
   16 {Ch}{s}     3 {Sh}{s}  


   21 {o}{m}    87 {a}{m} 
                 4 {a}{n} 
    7 {o}{d}               
  548 {o}{l}   270 {a}{l}
  365 {o}{r}   360 {a}{r} 
   25 {o}{s}     1 {a}{s} 
    6 {o}{y}     1 {a}{y}

   12 {o}{t}                
    5 {o}{k}               
    2 {o}{p}                 
    1 {o}{f}               
    1 {o}{CKh}              
    1 {o}{Sh}               

  278 {d}{y}  13 {l}{y}    
   14 {d}{o}  15 {l}{o}    
    6 {d}{a}                

   20 {d}{l}  
    1 {d}{d}   4 {l}{d}       
    1 {d}{r}  11 {l}{r}
    2 {d}{s}  10 {l}{s}    
    4 {d}{m}   1 {l}{m}    

               1 {l}{Ch}  
               1 {l}{Sh}  
               1 {l}{e}   
               1 {l}{k}   
               1 {l}{t}   

    1 {e}{l}  
    1 {e}{s}  
    1 {e}{y}  

I can see the well-known partition of the alphabet into classes
(gallows, dealers, circles, benches), but obviously that is
only part of the story.

Note that words with low occurrence counts may be parts of larger
words that were incorrectly transcribed as isolated words.

    > If the close fit vanishes if one uses the FSG
    > alphabet (ignore Eva in this context), then the 'coincidence
    > option' gains some ground.
    
I don't think so. That particular alphabet is defined by a very simple
rule: "a letter is a connected set of strokes". All other alphabets
are based on the assumption that frequent glyph combinations are
single letters. Perhaps that is simply not true...
  
All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 16:31:05 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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    > I haven't been able to give this too much thought yet, but
    > shouldn't there be some constraint on the  probabilities
    > in order to have the peak in the middle?
    
No, provided that all combinations do show up in the text (or, at
least, they are unbiasedly sampled with regards to length).

The probabilities will only affect the distribution of *token*
lengths, not that of *word* lengths.

    > Also, I think that in (2) it should be allowed to have various
    > different symbols in each slot (e.g. <empty>, Eva-ch or Eva-sh).

I almost fell for that too. But no, if you allow M alternatives for
each slot (besides <empty>), then you get more variety for longer
words than for shorter ones. The distribution will then be
binom(N,k)*(M**k) which is no longer symmetrical about N/2.

On the other hand, if we look at the *number* W_k (not the relative
frequency) of distinct words of length k, they fit the formula

    W_k  \approx  12 \choose(9,k-1)
    
Where the factor "12" actually varies between 11 and 13:

  length   W_k(observed)  \choose(9,k-1)  ratio
  -------  -------------  --------------  -------
     1           19              1          19.     
     2          102              9          11.3
     3          413             36          11.5
     4         1058             84          12.6
     5         1651            126          13.1
     6         1654            126          13.1
     7         1007             84          12.0
     8          439             36          12.2
     9          138              9          15.3
    10           32              1          32.      

Keep in mind that the counts are affected by noise, in both directions
(some valid words were lost before counting, and some words that were
counted are probably scribal or transcription errors.) In particular,
the counts for large k include many "words" which (from their 
internal structure) are almost surely two words run together.

The simplest model that generates the theoretical distribution above
is to concatenate a `marker' symbol, chosen from among 12
possibilities, with nine other distinct symbols, each supressed with
probability 1/2.

Of course, there are many other possibilities. For instance, instead
of the 12-fold choice, one could use a single marker, and add two
binary diacritics and a ternary one to specific symbols of the word,
by a deterministic rule. 

In fact, any deterministic length-preserving mapping of the above
"code" will preserve the word length distribution.

    > Also, having fewer slots, where some can contain 0, 1 or
    > 2 letters could result in a binomial ditribution

That is true if the probabilities are 1:2:1, respectively.
If the three possibilities are equally likely, the distribution
will not be exactly binomial.  However, the difference may not
be visible in the plot (that's what the central limit theorem
is about).

    > Indeed, I would not at all be surprised if the VMs contained
    > nothing but numbers. Numbers would make a lot of sense
    > for the labels near the zodiac nymphs, and these do fit in
    > the standard word paradigms.
    > 
    > Furthermore, having a binomial word length distribution
    > but not a binomial token length distribution is completely
    > logical if the text is a word for word encoding of some
    > plaintext.

Yes. If the word codes are assigned sequentially as the words show up
in the text (or in some previous "practice" text), the most common
words will tend to get relatively shorter codes.

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 16:31:26 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
To: Claus_Anders@t-online.de (Claus Anders)
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Subject: RE: On the word length distribution: Juan Caramuel y Lobkowitz
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Thanks Claus for Caramuel's bio. 

The letter I remembered is dated from Prague, 1647:

  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/556/large/232r.jpg
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/556/large/232v.jpg
  
It is about music; it doesn't have binary numbers, but it has
a table of negative powers of 1/2 starting with 
10,000,000 = 0,  5,000,000 = 1,  2,500,000 = 2, etc.
The third column of that table is positively tickling ;-)
The letter happens to mention our old friend Marci.

The following one, from Svirae(?) 1644, also mentions Marci and has
quotes in Arabic and Hebrew:

  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/556/large/364r.jpg
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/556/large/364v.jpg
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/556/large/365r.jpg
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/556/large/365v.jpg

And here is a 6-page letter from Caramuel to Kircher, that contains
translations of the same text into many languages by various people:

  http://150.217.52.68/kircher/ASPgentit.asp?idtitrec=4358
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/563/large/186r.jpg
  ...
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/563/large/189v.jpg

including, in particular, Kircher's code language ("Polygraphia
Nova"):

  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/563/large/189r.jpg

Another variation of the same letter (or a copy thereof:)

  http://150.217.52.68/kircher/ASPgentit.asp?idtitrec=4582
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/564/large/181r.jpg

    > In 1648, when the Swedes attacked Prague, he armed and led a
    > band of ecclesiastics who did yeoman service in the defence of
    > the city. His bravery on this occasion merited for him a collar
    > of gold from the emperor.
    
IIRC, Marci also got honors in the same battle for organizing a band
of students from Charles University.

    > Look at these key words: Chinese, Prague, Astrony, Grammar etc.
    > Seemed to be an interesting guy, who would have love the VMS (or
    > did he?)
    
Indeed...

Chinese theory notwithstanding, you may recall my other theory that
the VMS was actually written by Rapahel Mnishovsky as a demo of his
new "uncrackable code". He would have had the book delivered to Baresh
for a first test. After watching the poor guy struggle with it for
many years, Raphael would have prodded first Baresh and then Marci to
send the book to Kircher for the final test. The story about Rudolf
and Bacon, quoted in Marci's letter, would then be merely a bait to get
Kircher's attention.

It looks like one could imagine a similar plot with Caramuel 
in place of Raphael.  I don't believe any of it, but... 8-)

All the best,

--stolfi

PS. while browsing through Kircher's letters I noticed this one
(unrelated to the VMS), from Kircher to Pope Alexander VII, apparently
an expert's report on an "antiquo manuscripto" by "Johannes de
Sacrobosco Anglus" (that could be latin for "John of Holywood the
Englishman", I suppose). I can't quite read the Latin, but it seems
that the book in question is about alchemy, from the 1200's. The
letter lists "Batholomeus Vespucius", "Michael Scotus" and several
other names. Is anyone interested?

  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/558/large/089r.jpg
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/558/large/089v.jpg
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/558/large/090r.jpg
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/558/large/090v.jpg
  
Here is one with a cipher alphabet used by a "Chevalier de Beauchamps"
in his correspondence with a certain "Don Felipo"

  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/559/large/172r.jpg

Also a report from Prague, 1648 (unknown author) on a coin transmuted
into gold alchemically in the presence of Ferdinand III:

  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/559/large/173r.jpg

And I would appreciate if anyone could identify the script
reproduced in this one:

  http://150.217.52.68/kircher/ASPgentit.asp?idtitrec=4974
  http://Brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/kircher/566/large/247r.jpg
  [...]
  
--

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 18:10:11 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:05:16 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #1
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    Deciphering encrypted text, such as that seen in the Voynich
manuscript is at best a very arduous task. Sometimes it might be easier
to first look at the obvious and try to develop a profile of the type of
person who composed the manuscript. If we can see through this
individual's eyes then perhaps our task will be greatly simplified.
After analyzing the text, I have decided that the content is not bogus
and that it is both meaningful and purposeful. We have the added
advantage of 20/20 hindsight and with a little bit of luck may even be
able to determine what other texts and manuscripts the author may have
studied.

    Based on numerous dates associated with the manuscript, lets choose
the Renaissance period of the 16th century to focus our attention
concerning the contents of the manuscript. This is time of Leonardo da
Vinci, Michelangelo, Raphael, Copernicus, and Galileo. The genius of the
Renaissance man was to be very knowledgeable and well educated in
numerous fields of endeavor. The text of the Voynich manuscript
certainly has the look and feel of Leonardo's reverse mirror image
writing, but Leonardo's cryptic writing served as much as a convenience
as a method to keep its secrets from the masses. The text of the Voynich
manuscript is truly cryptic requiring a key and intimate knowledge to
understand its secrets.

    Lets consider what books, manuscripts, and texts a priviledged
student might have studied during this era. It turns out the there was a
book common to most individuals during the 16th century and before known
as the Book of Hours or Horae. In fact, it was the most often printed
book of its time. Everyone who could read and many who couldn't probably
at one time or another studied the Book of Hours which is a prayer book
centered around the Virgin Mary. These books are filled with beautiful
miniature paintings in the borders, full of religious references,
flowers, animals, drawings and colors. The paintings and borders added
great beauty to the Horae and served in part to attract those were less
adept at reading the Latin text. The colors used included red, blue,
green, and gold, as well as black and white, the same colors that can be
found in the Voynich manuscript. As may expected, the colors were giving
religious significance. Red can be said to be associated with Jesus
Christ or perhaps Adam and the red earth, blue is for the Virgin Mary,
green seems to refer to Saints and other scholars within the Bible, and
gold is a reference to God.

    Now why might this be important to the Voynich manuscript? Well, it
seems very likely that whoever wrote the Voynich manuscript also studied
the Book of Hours. They both have a similar look and feel. It also seems
to make a great of sense that those who studied the Book of Hours on a
regular basis were both well educated and quite religious. They believed
in what the Christian religion had to teach.

    Attached here is the first example that I came across on e-Bay a few
months ago. I was looking at samples of vellum and came across this gem
which is not in color, but it certainly attracted my attention,
especially when looking at the border and seeing a correlation to the
columns in the borders of the Voynich manuscript (f99-f102). This Book
of Hours vellum leaf is attributed to Philippe Pigouchet who apparently
designed the woodcut for Simon Vostre sometime around 1510 in Paris.
Often the styles, ideas, and designs that an author uses are borrowed
either consciously or subconsciously from what was previously studied.
Pictures certainly imprint very powerful images in the mind's eye. There
are numerous similar examples of these columns of stacked jars or vases
to be found throughout the Renaissance art.

Regards,
Dana Scott

(Note: the attached docuement is in jpeg format; hopefully you won't
have difficulty viewing it. If you do have problems, let me know and I
will see what alternatives might used for displaying the attachment).




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Thanks for the note.  Yes, the designs on the right border
especially do look similar.

However, please do not send binary or other large attachments to
the list.  It's preferable to put them up on a web site and send
a pointer.  If you don't have a handy web site, I'm sure some
members of the list would be happy to volunteer short-term space
for your pictures.

[I hope my oh-so-helpful mail system hasn't attached the picture
again in my reply here!]
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Mersday, 5 Afteryule S.R. 2001, 23:12
	12.19.7.15.1, 6 Imix 4 Kankin, Fourth Lord of Night

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 18:17:40 2000
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    > [Jacques:] I wonder: what if there were no real
    > word separations; if the separations were a consequence
    > of rules like: "after y always a space, before q always
    > a space", etc. -- a system similar to Arabic? Actually,
    > in Arabic, there are word separations on top of these
    > "letter separations". He r e is an e xample of how E
    > nglish would look like with wor d se par ations and a
    > r ule "afte r e and r always a space".
    
If the letters are generated at random, this process should give an
exponentially decaying distribution of token lengths (i.e. tokens with
length k would occur with probability A**k*(1 - A), for some A < 1).  

(I am not sure what the *word* length distribution would be -- I owe
you that.)

But the letters of the VMS are not generated at random; there are all
sort of "phonological" rules about allowed digraphs, plus some rules
that apply to the word as a whole, like "there is at most one gallows
per word" and "each word is a single hill" (where the heights are
basically {q m n } < {d l r s} < {ch sh} < {k t p f}, plus some tweaks
for {e i a o y} and rare letters.)

I don't know whether it is possible to get these two rules (and the
right statistics) with a low-order markov monkey plus word splitting
rules based on local context. We could get single-hill words by
inserting a space at every "valley bottom"; but I suspect that the
token length distribution would be too biased towards short words.

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 18:58:50 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:44:10 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Christian symbols and Astrology
To: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
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Have you seen the following Book of Hours with its astrological
illustrations in Les Tres Riches Heurs Du Duc De Berry? They are quite
elegant. During the transition period from Astrology to Christianity the
Catholic Popes apparently came to terms with astrology and were even
pleased at times to have astrological figures assosiated with them by
name.

Regards,
Dana Scott

http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/heures.html

Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> Dana F. Scott wrote:
>
> > This is quite interesting to correlate the
> > cross on top of the Libra queen's crown to the star
> > Regulus.
>
> [...]
>
> > This cross does look like a cross with
> > the naked eye;
>
> [...]
>
> > In addition, the cross is placed over two arches
> > within the crown. This is significant and needs to
> > be understood. There is also a concern that the
> > Regulus star may be more closely associated with
> > Leo than Libra, so I would want to know what the
> > connection is with Libra.
>
> Correct.
> I propose that the crown refers to Regulus, since
> Regulus means 'little king'. The two other crowned
> nymphs are in Leo and in Cancer. These are roughly
> in the right area of the zodiac. (I lack a detailed
> explanation why they are where they are).
>
> The two arches with the star on top in my opinion
> indicate the culmination of the star Regulus.
> This is the point where it is highest above the
> horizon, due south. The arches indicate the path
> of the star. Culmination occurs in Libra, i.e.
> when one particular degree of Libra rises. Which
> degree exactly depends on the century and on the
> geographic latitude of the observer.
>
> There is quite a bit more in the zodiac illustrations
> that makes sense, but I am aware of the Rorschach
> effect so I do realise that some of it is perhaps
> only imaginary. I still need to figure out what.
>
> Dana, I have to apologise for not having responded
> in detail to your proposed decryption of the MS.
> I must say that I share Jorge Stolfi's view, in
> the sense that you haven't provided us with anything
> concrete. (Which is in a sense what he meant with
> 'not falsifiable')
> Please do have a look at the criteria for an
> acceptable solution on Gabriel Landini's web page.
> While these may not be perfect, it should give you
> an idea of what you would have to do to convince
> others of the correctness of your solution.
>
> Kind regards, Rene
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 19:17:22 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:48:15 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #1
To: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
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O.K. Jim. I do have a web site that I can use. I'm somewhat new at this,
but
I'll use URL pointers from now on.

Thanks,
Dana Scott


Jim Gillogly wrote:

> Thanks for the note.  Yes, the designs on the right border
> especially do look similar.
>
> However, please do not send binary or other large attachments to
> the list.  It's preferable to put them up on a web site and send
> a pointer.  If you don't have a handy web site, I'm sure some
> members of the list would be happy to volunteer short-term space
> for your pictures.
>
> [I hope my oh-so-helpful mail system hasn't attached the picture
> again in my reply here!]
> --
>         Jim Gillogly
>         Mersday, 5 Afteryule S.R. 2001, 23:12
>         12.19.7.15.1, 6 Imix 4 Kankin, Fourth Lord of Night

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 19:58:21 2000
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Rene, here I will answer some of the less important points
you make in your message.  But there is one really intersting 
point which I will save for a separate message.

    > I'm with you now. By imposing that every possible combination
    > exists, the probabilities (in the thesaurus, i.e. the list of
    > words) are actually forced to 0.5.
    
Yes.

    > That's also why you may only have two options, either empty or
    > 'one specific character'.
    
To clarify: the characters must be all distinct, and 
the rule "one character per slot" must be explicitly assumed.

For instance, suppose the characters are ABC (one per slot),
the possible words, sorted by length, are

  k  W_k  words
  -  ---  -------------------
  1   1   #  
  2   3   #A   #B   #C 
  3   3   #AB  #AC  #BC
  4   1   #ABC
   
If we allow two characters per slot, say [Aa][Bb][Cc],
then the possible words are

  k  W_k  words
  -  ---  -------------------
  1   1   #
  2   6   #A #a #B #b #C #c
  3  12   #AB #Ab #aB #ab #AC #Ac ... #cb
  4   8   #ABC #ABc #AbC ... #abc

Thus the symmetrical binomial distribution seems to require 
one choice per slot only.
    
    > I have been assuming that not all combinations do exist. This 
    > causes interesting problems. 

And they do not; see for example the list of 2-character words
that I posted earlier today.  

Note that the `bit position' encoding is rather redundant, because the
position symbols are all distinct and can be permuted without changing
the numerical value. It is not hard to remove the redundancy by a
length-preserving re-encoding, and this process may explain the
complicated structure of the VMS words.

For instance, take the variant of the bit-position code 
which is described in my page, with even digits increasing 
on the left, odd digits decreasing on the right:

  Binary  10100 10101 10110 10111 11000 11001 11010 11011 11100 11101 ...
  
  Code    24#   024#  24#1  024#1 4#5   04#5  4#51  04#51 4#53  04#53 ...
  
Now, since we know which digits are even and which are odd, we can 
divide everything by 2, truncating:

  Binary  10100 10101 10110 10111 11000 11001 11010 11011 11100 11101 ...
  
  Code'   12#   012#  12#0  012#0 2#2   02#2  2#20  02#20 2#21  02#21 ...

This code is now a bit more VMS words: single-hill profiles, but the
same letters can occur on either side of the hilltop #. Note that this
re-encoding is one-to-one and preserves word length, so it still has a
binomial word-length distribution.

(We still have some redundancy because the prefix and suffix are
monotonic. We could remove it by encoding only the differences, except
for the ends:

  Binary  10100 10101 10110 10111 11000 11001 11010 11011 11100 11101 ...
  
  Code''  11#   011#  11#0  011#0 2#2   02#2  2#20  02#20 2#11  02#11 ...
 
However that would destroy the single-hill property.)

The point of this example is to show that even a simple re-encoding of
the bit-position code can thoroughly disguise the original N-slot
mechanism.

    > Let's see. If one wants to encode a plaintext using a scheme along
    > the lines you're suggesting, one could build a dictionary in 
    > advance or 'on the fly'. The latter would be easy in the computer
    > age, rather hard before that.
    
Perhaps not that hard. I would maintain the dictionary as a code->word
list (in numerical order, for decoding) and also as a stack of
word-code library cards (in alphabetical order, for encoding).
Whenever I ran into a new word, I would add it to the list, assigning
to it the next code, and add the corresponding card to the stack.

Granted, this process would be rather slow; but that is a general 
problem for any codebook-based theory. 
    
    > I suppose that in practice it would be a combination: make a
    > good starting dictionary and then add words on the fly as they
    > are needed.

Perhaps. The token length distribution suggests that the most common
words were assigned to short codes. That could be the result of either
strategy.

    > In any case, the source text would have far more than 512
    > different words.
    
Note that in fact the word counts for each length are actually about
12 times the pure binomial model.  So the dictionary has
in fact about 6000 distinct words.

    > If we take this further, there should be a set of 12 characters
    > (nice number!) of which every Voynich word should have:
    > - exactly one (simple scenario)
    > - at least one (complicated scenario)

Unfortunately that is not the case.  It looks more like some
variant of the "diacritics" solution.  E.g., start with the 
basic bit position code

  #  #A  #B  #AB  #C  #AC  #BC  #ABC  #D  #AD ...
  
then vary the first letter (only!) between upper or lower case:

  #  #A #a  #B #b  #AB #aB  #AC #aC  #BC #bC  #ABC #aBC #D #d 
  
This results in a word length distribution that is exactly twice the 
pure binomial, W_k = 2*choose(N,k-1) (except for W_1, the single code #).
I suspect that this sort of trick was used in the VMS, only that 
with more bits -- so that the factor came out 12 instead of 2. 

All the best,

--stolfi

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    > [rene:] A base-60 system as used by the Babylonians and
    > understood (to the best of my knowledge) by later cultures is
    > one interesting possibility [to generate the factor `12'] that
    > comes to mind immediately. The base numbers could be:
    > 1,5,10,20,60,300,600,1200,3600 Hmmm, only 9, not 12.

Hm, these could be the nine yes/no slots in the binomial part of the code.
Indeed the Babylonians (and the Greek, Roman, Chinese...) used a 
digit-position code: with different sets of symbols for each position,
omitting the zeros.  Unfortunately, all but the Romans had several
choices per slot; so the word length distribution for those
numerals is not symmetrical.

But your remark made me realize that the *Roman* system, unlike the
others, is actually quite similar to the binary bit-position code,
except that it allows multiple I/X/C letters. Here is the length
distribution d_k for the Roman "digits" from 0 to 9, without the
subtractive notation:

  k  d_k  words
  -  ---  -----------
  0   1   ()
  1   2   I V
  2   2   II VI
  3   2   III VII
  4   2   IIII VIII
  5   1   VIIII
  
The length of a Roman numeral between 0 and 999 will be the sum of
three variables, each with this distribution (one for each decimal
position). With a couple of unix hacks, I computed the number R_k of
distinct Roman numerals in 0-999 with each given length k:

    k   R_k 
   ---  ---
    0     1 (empty)
    1     6 (I, V, X, L, C, D)
    2    18 (II, VI, XI, XV, XX, LI,... DC)
    3    38
    4    66
    5    99
    6   128
    7   144
    8   144
    9   128
   10    99
   11    66
   12    38
   13    18
   14     6
   15     1 (DCCCCLXXXXVIIII)

This distribution is not quite a binomial distribution, but, thanks to
the law of large numbers, it is not very far from one --- specifically,
to binomial(15,k), except for a constant factor:

    k   R_k  binm  ratio
   ---  ---  ----  -----
    0     1     1  1.000
    1     6    15  0.400
    2    18   105  0.171
    3    38   455  0.084
    4    66  1365  0.048
    5    99  3003  0.033
    6   128  5005  0.026
    7   144  6435  0.022
    8   144  6435  0.022
    9   128  5005  0.026
   10    99  3003  0.033
   11    66  1365  0.048
   12    38   455  0.084
   13    18   105  0.171
   14     6    15  0.400
   15     1     1  1.000

The match between R_k and the binom(15,k) distribution is not as good
as in the case of the VMS words (the ratio varies from 0.02 to 0.05
over the significative range), but it is close enough to be
suggestive.

So perhaps we do not need to assume nine independent X/empty slots in
the VMS words. Perhaps there are only (say) three slots, each of which
may be filled with a "digit" string of length between 0 and 3. Let d_k
be the number of distinct "digits" of each length k, in a given slot.
It is not necessary that these counts be in the ratio 1:3:3:1. As long
as they are symmetrical (i.e. d_0=d_3 and d_1=d_2), the word
length distribution will be symmetrical and approximately binomial.

All the best,

--stolfi

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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:52:51 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2
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    What other books were of great importance during the Renaissance
that would have been used by tutors or taught in schools? Well, even
today we still hear of Dante and I think that he was a major infulence
on the author of the Voynich manuscript. Since I am a new member on the
Voynich mailing list, forgive me if I am repeating what might already
have been discussed. For quite a while I was puzzled by the unusual
Astrological figures in the Voynich manuscript. I first tried to
identify the kind of fish shown in Pisces. I thought that they might
have been sturgeon, but the tail fins didn't look right. Then I realized
that they are dolphins, well known in the Italian maritime to fishermen
and sailors.

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515/1515.tp2r.150dpi.jpeg

    Then I took a close look at Leo. This big cat sort of looks like a
lion, but not quite. It seems to have spots. And Scorpio has a large
tail, but doesn't look at all like the familiar scorpion to me, even
though it is dark in color. Actually the facial features of scorpio are
a bit difficult to visualize properly making it difficult to identify
the type of animal represented. Now while looking through a book on
Dante's Inferno, I discovered a wonderful painting that I think will
answer these questions.

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1502/NewberryAldine.inf1.150dpi.jpeg

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1506/1506.inf1.wc.150dpi.jpeg
http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1554/1554.inf1.2pg.150dpi.jpeg



Leo is not a lion, but a leopard, and Scorpio is not a scorpion, but a
black she-wolf with a long tail. What a revelation this turns out to be.
Our mysterious author of the Voynich manuscript has read Dante and
admired him enough to incorporte his philosophy and teachings into the
Voynich manuscript. This is great stuff. But what is the significance?
Well there is more. The leopard, by the way, was thought to a cross
between a lion and an all black panther (pard). And remember the
she-wolf who took care of Romulus and Remus? Well, this narrows our
focus point a bit. Dante was born in Florence, the center of the Italian
Renaissance. So why the Leopard and not Leo? There seems to be some
reference to black and white in the Voynich manuscript. If we take a
look at the history of Florence, we learn that there were two political
factions in conflict with each other called the Guelphs (who supported
the Pope) and the Ghibellines. Dante was caught up in the battle between
these two groups, and it appears that Dante wasn't too pleased with Pope
Leo III.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07056c.htm

The Guelphs later split into two separate rival groups called the Blacks
and the Whites. But there is more. It appears that major portions of the
Voynich manuscript (Botanical, Anatomical, Cosmological, Astrological
charts) are patterned after Dante's Divine Comedy (Inferno, Purgatory,
Paradiso). We can find pictures of naked people underground vaguely
similar to the naked ladies in the Voynich manuscript.

Inferno:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.a.htm

Purgatory:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.b.htm

Paradiso:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.c.htm

The similarities in the styles of the documents are remarkable. I am
convinced most of all by diagrams illustrating the different levels in
Dante's Divine Comedy.

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515a/1515a.wc1.150dpi.jpeg
http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1568/1568.inf1.2pg.150dpi.jpeg
http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1568/1568.pur1.wc.150dpi.jpeg

There is a diagram that clearly relates to my interpretation of the
Botanical text where I claim there are different levels of the plant
referenced in the text, both above and below ground. My simple diagram
of the levels in the Voynich looks like the following:

 c c c c
  c c c
   c c
    c
    \
   \  \
  \  \  \
 \  \  \  \

Now look at the following diagram related to Dante:

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1595/1595.diag.175dpi.jpeg

Notice the dates at the top left of the diagram in Roman numerals with
all the D's and C's. This comparison to Roman numeral needs further
analysis, but I am entrigued by what I see here.

    So now we know that the author of the Voynich manuscript most likely
studies a Book of Hours and Dante's Divine Comedy. At this point I would
also say that this individual knew both Latin and the Tuscan dialect
used by Dante.

Regards,
Dana Scott

Additional references to Dante:
http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1487/1487.par1.wc.200dpi.jpeg
http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1491/1492.par1.wc.210dpi.jpeg




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&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What other books were of great importance during the
Renaissance that would have been used by tutors or taught in schools? Well,
even today we still hear of Dante and I think that he was a major infulence
on the author of the Voynich manuscript. Since I am a new member on the
Voynich mailing list, forgive me if I am repeating what might already have
been discussed. For quite a while I was puzzled by the unusual Astrological
figures in the Voynich manuscript. I first tried to identify the kind of
fish shown in Pisces. I thought that they might have been sturgeon, but
the tail fins didn't look right. Then I realized that they are dolphins,
well known in the Italian maritime to fishermen and sailors.
<p><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515/1515.tp2r.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515/1515.tp2r.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Then I took a close look at Leo. This big cat sort
of looks like a lion, but not quite. It seems to have spots. And Scorpio
has a large tail, but doesn't look at all like the familiar scorpion to
me, even though it is dark in color. Actually the facial features of scorpio
are a bit difficult to visualize properly making it difficult to identify
the type of animal represented. Now while looking through a book on Dante's
Inferno, I discovered a wonderful painting that I think will answer these
questions.
<p><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1502/NewberryAldine.inf1.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1502/NewberryAldine.inf1.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<p><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1502/NewberryAldine.inf1.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1506/1506.inf1.wc.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<br><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1502/NewberryAldine.inf1.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1554/1554.inf1.2pg.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Leo is not a lion, but a leopard, and Scorpio is not a scorpion, but
a black she-wolf with a long tail. What a revelation this turns out to
be. Our mysterious author of the Voynich manuscript has read Dante and
admired him enough to incorporte his philosophy and teachings into the
Voynich manuscript. This is great stuff. But what is the significance?
Well there is more. The leopard, by the way, was thought to a cross between
a lion and an all black panther (pard). And remember the she-wolf who took
care of Romulus and Remus? Well, this narrows our focus point a bit. Dante
was born in Florence, the center of the Italian Renaissance. So why the
Leopard and not Leo? There seems to be some reference to black and white
in the Voynich manuscript. If we take a look at the history of Florence,
we learn that there were two political factions in conflict with each other
called the Guelphs (who supported the Pope) and the Ghibellines. Dante
was caught up in the battle between these two groups, and it appears that
Dante wasn't too pleased with Pope Leo III.
<p><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07056c.htm">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07056c.htm</a>
<p>The Guelphs later split into two separate rival groups called the Blacks
and the Whites. But there is more. It appears that major portions of the
Voynich manuscript (Botanical, Anatomical, Cosmological, Astrological charts)
are patterned after Dante's Divine Comedy (Inferno, Purgatory, Paradiso).
We can find pictures of naked people underground vaguely similar to the
naked ladies in the Voynich manuscript.
<p>Inferno:
<br><a href="http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.a.htm">http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.a.htm</a>
<p>Purgatory:
<br><a href="http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.b.htm">http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.b.htm</a>
<p>Paradiso:
<br><a href="http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.c.htm">http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/holkham/misc/048.c.htm</a>
<p>The similarities in the styles of the documents are remarkable. I am
convinced most of all by diagrams illustrating the different levels in
Dante's Divine Comedy.
<p><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515a/1515a.wc1.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515a/1515a.wc1.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<br><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1568/1568.inf1.2pg.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1568/1568.inf1.2pg.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<br><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1568/1568.pur1.wc.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1568/1568.pur1.wc.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<p>There is a diagram that clearly relates to my interpretation of the
Botanical text where I claim there are different levels of the plant referenced
in the text, both above and below ground. My simple diagram of the levels
in the Voynich looks like the following:
<p>&nbsp;c c c c
<br>&nbsp; c c c
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; c c
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; \
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; \&nbsp; \
<br>&nbsp; \&nbsp; \&nbsp; \
<br>&nbsp;\&nbsp; \&nbsp; \&nbsp; \
<p>Now look at the following diagram related to Dante:
<p><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1595/1595.diag.175dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1595/1595.diag.175dpi.jpeg</a>
<p>Notice the dates at the top left of the diagram in Roman numerals with
all the D's and C's. This comparison to Roman numeral needs further analysis,
but I am entrigued by what I see here.
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So now we know that the author of the Voynich manuscript
most likely studies a Book of Hours and Dante's Divine Comedy. At this
point I would also say that this individual knew both Latin and the Tuscan
dialect used by Dante.
<p>Regards,
<br>Dana Scott
<p>Additional references to Dante:
<br><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1487/1487.par1.wc.200dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1487/1487.par1.wc.200dpi.jpeg</a>
<br><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1491/1492.par1.wc.210dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1491/1492.par1.wc.210dpi.jpeg</a>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 21:42:53 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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Subject: Re: VMS words and Roman numerals
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There's more: the Roman numerals with the *subtractive* notation 
(IV = 4, IX = 9, etc.) have a symmetric digit length distribution, too.
Let again d_k be the number of distinct Roman digits with given length k:

  k  d_k  digits
  -  ---  -------
  0   1   (empty)
  1   2   I V
  2   4   II IV VI IX
  3   2   III VII 
  4   1   VIII
  
In fact, the distribution d_k is not too different from binom(4,k) =
1:4:6:4:1 times a constant. Therefore the subtractive Roman numerals
have a symmetric length distribution, too. Let again R_k be the number
of distinct Roman numerals from 0 to 999 with given length k. Here are
the values:

    k   R_k  numerals
   ---  ---  ------------
    0     1  (empty)
    1     6  I V X L C D 
    2    24  II IV VI IX XI XV XX XL XC LI ... CX CL CD CM
    3    62
    4   123
    5   180
    6   208
    7   180
    8   123
    9    62
   10    24
   11     6  
   12     1  DCCCLXXXVIII

The distribution R_k is actually quite close to binom(12,k):

    k   R_k  binm  ratio
   ---  ---  ----  --------
    0     1     1  1.00
    1     6    12  0.50
    2    24    66  0.36
    3    62   220  0.28
    4   123   495  0.25
    5   180   792  0.23
    6   208   924  0.23
    7   180   792  0.23
    8   123   495  0.25
    9    62   220  0.28
   10    24    66  0.36
   11     6    12  0.50
   12     1     1  1.00

Note that the ratio R_k/binom(12,k) is close to 0.23 over most of the
significant range.

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 22:21:50 2000
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From: Alissa Mower clough <teleny@connix.com>
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    I don't know if it's my place to say this, but it might help, if
we're to talk in terms of Dana's line of reasoning...

    The Book of Hours is not, as he says, primarily about the Virgin
Mary -- what he's thinking about is a suppliment, called the Little
Hours of the Virgin. The Hours are a manual for chanting the Book of
Psalms, known as the Divine Office. For a monk, and certainly for many
of the laity as well, the Office was part of the daily routine: get up,
say a psalm. Go to work, say a psalm. Break for lunch, psalm again.
There are even a few hours that were meant to be chanted at midnight --
that is to say, if  (or when) one woke up after a few hours' sleep. Over
the course of a month, the whole 150 psalms would be said.
    If this seems odd, it gets even more complicated: certain psalms
were supposed to have medical and other benefits as well. My personal
feeling is that our favorite book is medical. (Just a hunch...) If it
is, wouldn't it be true that it would contain such things as medicinal
plants (including newly found ones --assuming this is the 16th century--
again, just a guess) such as the Girasol Artichoke ( a tuber found in
some species of sunflower), medicinal baths, astrological advice, and
recipes. So including a few psalms or prayers would not be amiss.

    I know I'm out on several limbs here, but I'd like to think I helped
the group, even a little....

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Wed Dec 27 22:36:16 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
To: voynich@rand.org
Subject: VMS Words of length 2: CORRECTION
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Oops, the table of length-2 words that I posted earlier was incomplete.
Sorry for the mix-up. Here is the right one:

    #===============#===============#===============#===============#
    |   1 {y}{y}    |   6 {o}{y}    |   1 {a}{y}    |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   3 {y}{d}    |   7 {o}{d}    |               |               |
    |   2 {y}{l}    | 548 {o}{l}    | 270 {a}{l}    |               |
    |               | 365 {o}{r}    | 360 {a}{r}    |               |
    |   1 {y}{s}    |  25 {o}{s}    |   1 {a}{s}    |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |  21 {o}{m}    |  87 {a}{m}    |               |
    |               |               |   4 {a}{n}    |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |   1 {o}{Sh}   |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |  12 {o}{t}    |               |               |
    |   4 {y}{k}    |   5 {o}{k}    |               |               |
    |               |   2 {o}{p}    |               |               |
    |               |   1 {o}{f}    |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |   1 {o}{CKh}  |               |               |
    #===============#===============#===============#===============#
    |   2 {q}{y}    |               |               |               |
    |  25 {q}{o}    |               |               |               |
    #===============#===============#===============#===============#
    | 278 {d}{y}    |  13 {l}{y}    |  14 {r}{y}    |  36 {s}{y}    |
    |  14 {d}{o}    |  15 {l}{o}    |   9 {r}{o}    |   5 {s}{o}    |
    |   6 {d}{a}    |               |   1 {r}{a}    |   3 {s}{a}    |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |  20 {d}{l}    |               |   1 {r}{l}    |   1 {s}{l}    |
    |   1 {d}{d}    |   4 {l}{d}    |               |               |
    |   1 {d}{r}    |  11 {l}{r}    |               |               |
    |   2 {d}{s}    |  10 {l}{s}    |   1 {r}{s}    |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   4 {d}{m}    |   1 {l}{m}    |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |   1 {l}{Ch}   |   1 {r}{Ch}   |               |
    |               |   1 {l}{Sh}   |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |   1 {l}{t}    |               |               |
    |               |   1 {l}{k}    |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |               |               |   1 {s}{CTh}  |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |               |   1 {l}{e}    |               |               |
    #===============#===============#===============#===============#            
    | 152 {Ch}{y}   | 102 {Sh}{y}   |   1 {e}{y}    |               |
    |  68 {Ch}{o}   | 126 {Sh}{o}   |               |               |
    |   1 {Ch}{a}   |   3 {Sh}{a}   |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   6 {Ch}{d}   |   6 {Sh}{d}   |               |               |
    |  26 {Ch}{l}   |   3 {Sh}{l}   |   1 {e}{l}    |               |
    |   9 {Ch}{r}   |   2 {Sh}{r}   |               |               |
    |  16 {Ch}{s}   |   3 {Sh}{s}   |   1 {e}{s}    |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   1 {Ch}{k}   |               |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   3 {Ch}{CKh} |               |               |               |
    |   4 {Ch}{CTh} |               |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   1 {Ch}{e}   |  27 {Sh}{e}   |               |               |
    #===============#===============#===============#===============#
    |  23 {k}{y}    |  17 {t}{y}    |   2 {p}{y}    |               |
    |   6 {k}{o}    |   2 {t}{o}    |               |               |
    |   1 {k}{a}    |               |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   2 {k}{l}    |   1 {t}{l}    |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   1 {k}{Sh}   |   1 {t}{Sh}   |               |               |
    |               |   1 {t}{Ch}   |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   1 {k}{e}    |               |               |               |
    #===============#===============#===============#===============#
    | 115 {CTh}{y}  |  40 {CKh}{y}  |  14 {CPh}{y}  |   6 {CFh}{y}  |
    |  16 {CTh}{o}  |   5 {CKh}{o}  |   2 {CPh}{o}  |               |
    |   1 {CTh}{a}  |               |               |               |
    +---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
    |   1 {CTh}{d}  |               |               |               |
    |   1 {CTh}{l}  |               |               |               |
    |   1 {CTh}{s}  |   1 {CKh}{s}  |               |   1 {CFh}{s}  |
    #===============#===============#===============#===============#

Again, the low-count words may be bogus, and there may be 
missing words. 

All the best,

--stolfi

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To: "VMS List" <voynich@rand.org>
References: <3A4A9CF3.AC2903CA@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Dana F. Scott=20
  To: voynich@rand.org ; AFScott@aol.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:52 PM
  Subject: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2 =20
  There seems to be some reference to black and white in the Voynich =
manuscript --- The Guelphs later split into two separate rival groups =
called the Blacks and the Whites. But there is more.=20

I've tried to steer clear of any Black & White concepts that have =
emerged solely due to the B&W copyflo's... The dark and light colours =
within the zodiacs are indeed colours and not B&W distinctions.

John.

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black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Ddfscott@pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:dfscott@pacbell.net">Dana F.=20
  Scott</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dvoynich@rand.org =

  href=3D"mailto:voynich@rand.org">voynich@rand.org</A> ; <A =
title=3DAFScott@aol.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:AFScott@aol.com">AFScott@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 27, =
2000 8:52=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Voynich -- Opening The =
Doors=20
  #2&nbsp; </DIV>
  <P>There seems to be some reference to black and white in the Voynich=20
  manuscript --- The Guelphs later split into two separate rival groups =
called=20
  the Blacks and the Whites. But there is more. =
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've tried to steer clear of any Black =
&amp; White=20
concepts that have emerged solely due to the B&amp;W copyflo's... The =
dark and=20
light colours within the zodiacs are indeed colours and not B&amp;W=20
distinctions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 28 09:58:23 2000
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorge Stolfi" <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
To: <rene@voynich.nu>
Cc: <voynich@rand.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: On the word length distribution


> Note that in fact the word counts for each length are actually about
> 12 times the pure binomial model.  So the dictionary has
> in fact about 6000 distinct words.
>
>     > If we take this further, there should be a set of 12 characters
>     > (nice number!) of which every Voynich word should have:
>     > - exactly one (simple scenario)
>     > - at least one (complicated scenario)
>
> Unfortunately that is not the case.  It looks more like some
> variant of the "diacritics" solution

Yikes - all this Math is hard on my head!!!  I find it difficult to believe
the author would have created such a cumbersome code as a 6000 word
dictionary - what if he misplaced his dictionary? Does this binomial system
account for the lack of doublets?

I don't know what the math would do with such a system, but what if you
created two 6x6 tables and filled them both with one 17 letter (plaintext)
alphabet, the numbers 0-9, and the most frequently used letters filling in
the remaining nine squares?  The first table would be labelled according to
the VMS character set found at the beginning of words, the second by word
final characters. When to switch from the first table to the other thus
bringing the encrypted word to a close could be random. Whenever the second
table is used a space is added to the encryption. Am I right in assuming
this would give you the binomial wordlength you've been looking at? You
could also ensure that doublets didn't occur by selecting one of the other
choices for most popular letters - or forcing a move to the second table.

Labelling in my mind would be done by the 'stroke-order' concept with the
initial stroke being the rows and the ligature being the columns. Perhaps a
blank row label could account for double ligatures. Gallows could indicate a
switch without a space - even backfilling a space so that a 'y' could
immediately precede a gallows.

Well, I'm not a cryptologist but I would like to think that a cipher system
sounds more logical than a codebook of 6000 words - and I still would rather
it turned out to be a natural language.

John


From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 28 11:11:07 2000
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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:10:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2
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Various thoughts related to Dana's latest post:

I do not see any clear parallel between the Voynich MS
and a book of hours, to be honest. If this suggestion
is based
on the illustration attached to the earlier E-mail,
then I
would say that such illustrations are quite generic
and may
be found in many books.

Also, the illustration in Leo looks like a clear
lioness to
me. The way in which it is depicted, with the tail
forward
between the hind legs and up in the air can be seen in
other zodiacs as well.

I do like the Dante MS, however. Even though it is
written and drawn in a very different manner from
the Voynich MS, the pools with little people inside
are very suggestive.

Cheers, Rene

__________________________________________________
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    > [John Grove:] I find it difficult to believe the author would
    > have created such a cumbersome code as a 6000 word dictionary -
    > what if he misplaced his dictionary?
    
That is indeed a problem with any codebook-based theory. As far as I
know, such codes are useful only for short messages where 100% secrecy
is absolutely essential. I still haven't heard of any pre-computer
text as long as the VMS that was entirely encrypted by such a method.

The VMS (or, what survived of it) contains about 35,000 tokens, i.e.
about 150 tokens per page on the average --- some 15-20 lines, I would
guess. Now suppose that the author/reader needs to look up every other
token in the dictionary (the rest having been memorized), and that it
takes 30 seconds to do so. That comes out to about half an hour 
for each (very short) page. Phew!

On the other hand, a person who invents a new wonderful artificial
language or encryption method may indeed be sufficiently motivated to
undertake such a task, just as a demonstration. I suppose that
Dalgarno, for instance, did write a complete dictionary for his
artificial language --- which must have had at least 5000 words to be
usable --- and must have composed some longish texts in it.

    > Does this binomial system account for the lack of doublets?

The basic bit-position code (using a distinct symbol for each bit
position) in fact ensures that there will be no repeated symbols
within the same word, adjacent or not. And indeed the VMS words seem
to obey this restriction to some extent. For instance, even though 50%
of the tokens have a gallows letter, there are almost no tokens with
two gallows (one would expect 25% of the tokens to have them). This
may apply to other letters too; I'll check.
 
Now consider the modified bit-position encoding described in a
previous message: with even digits on the left side of the #-marker,
odd digits on the right side, both divided by 2 (truncating). In this
encoding, there are some repeated digits between the two halves, but
none within each half. This example is meant to show that the binomial
length distribution is compatible with a limited amount of letter
repetition.

    > I don't know what the math would do with such a system, but what
    > if you created two 6x6 tables and filled them both with one 17
    > letter (plaintext) alphabet, the numbers 0-9, and the most
    > frequently used letters filling in the remaining nine squares?
    > The first table would be labelled according to the VMS character
    > set found at the beginning of words, the second by word final
    > characters. When to switch from the first table to the other
    > thus bringing the encrypted word to a close could be random.
    > Whenever the second table is used a space is added to the
    > encryption. Am I right in assuming this would give you the
    > binomial wordlength you've been looking at?
    
To account for the layer structure of words, you cannot use the same
table twice in a row. You would need about six tables (dealer prefix,
bench prefix, gallows, bench suffix, dealer suffix, final group), each
mapping a letter to a string of zero or more VMS symbols of the proper
type; and use each table once, in sequence. Each table must include
the empty string as one of the codes.

For instance, denoting the empty string by (), we could use

    Plaintext  A    B    C    D    E    F    G    H 
    Table 1    ()   o    qo   ol   qol  or   qor  ...
    Table 2    ()   ch   sh   che  she  cho  sho  ...
    Table 3    ()   k    t    ke   te   cth  ckh  cthe ckhe ...
    Table 4    ()   ch   sh   che  she  ...  
    Table 5    ()   d    l    r    s    od   or   ol ...
    Table 6    ()   y    oin  oiin oir  oiir am   ....

To account for the binomial wordlength distribution, in each table the
number d_k of codes of each length k must be symmetrical, preferably
bell-shaped. A symmetrical set for table 3 would be, for example, 
{ () k t ke te ckh cth ckhe cthe ckhhe }, which has length distribution 
d_k = (1,2,2,2,1). I don't know whether it is possible to tweak
all the tables (by playing with the <e> and <o> modifiers) to have 
symmetric ditributions, and also get the correct mean and maximum
word length.

However, the code as given above is inadequate because it assumes that
all plaintext words have 6 letters. Moreover, the code is ambiguous:
for instance, "ch" could be either ABAAAA or AAABAA. Finally, in some
slots of the layered-structure model there doesn't seem to be enouh
possible codes to account for all letters of the alphabet. So the true
encoding is probably more subtle that that...

    > Well, I'm not a cryptologist but I would like to think that a
    > cipher system sounds more logical than a codebook of 6000 words
    > - and I still would rather it turned out to be a natural
    > language.

Me too...

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 28 14:24:18 2000
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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:44:29 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2
To: John Grove <John@morewood.net>
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Hello John,
     Yes, I agree with your caution concerning the B&W copyflo's. I
think of the black and white of the leopard and possible reference to
the Black and White Gulephs of Florence/Tuscany, the darkness and light
of night and day, the plant life below and above ground, the black
outline of the plant drawings later filled in with color which may imply
an artistic style of painting. I don't know that there is any deep
meaningful significance here. It's just something I see. Do we know all
the colors associated with each page of the manuscript? Also, I am
interested in knowing if the manuscipt has been transcribed to the EVA
font. I appreciate your help.

Regards,
Dana Scott

John Grove wrote:

>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: Dana F. Scott
>      To: voynich@rand.org ; AFScott@aol.com
>      Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:52 PM
>      Subject: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2
>      There seems to be some reference to black and white in the
>      Voynich manuscript --- The Guelphs later split into two
>      separate rival groups called the Blacks and the Whites. But
>      there is more.
>
> I've tried to steer clear of any Black & White concepts that have
> emerged solely due to the B&W copyflo's... The dark and light colours
> within the zodiacs are indeed colours and not B&W distinctions. John.

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Hello John,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes, I agree with your caution concerning
the B&amp;W copyflo's. I think of the black and white of the leopard and
possible reference to the Black and White Gulephs of Florence/Tuscany,
the darkness and light of night and day, the plant life below and above
ground, the black outline of the plant drawings later filled in with color
which may imply an artistic style of painting. I don't know that there
is any deep meaningful significance here. It's just something I see. Do
we know all the colors associated with each page of the manuscript? Also,
I am interested in knowing if the manuscipt has been transcribed to the
EVA font. I appreciate your help.
<p>Regards,
<br>Dana Scott
<p>John Grove wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>

<blockquote dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>----- Original
Message -----</font></font></div>

<div 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:dfscott@pacbell.net" title="dfscott@pacbell.net">Dana F.
Scott</a></font></font></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:voynich@rand.org" title="voynich@rand.org">voynich@rand.org</a>
; <a href="mailto:AFScott@aol.com" title="AFScott@aol.com">AFScott@aol.com</a></font></font></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Sent:</b>
Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:52 PM</font></font></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Subject:</b>
Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2</font></font></div>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>There seems to be some reference to black
and white in the Voynich manuscript --- The Guelphs later split into two
separate rival groups called the Blacks and the Whites. But there is more.</font></font></blockquote>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I've tried to steer clear of any Black
&amp; White concepts that have emerged solely due to the B&amp;W copyflo's...
The dark and light colours within the zodiacs are indeed colours and not
B&amp;W distinctions.</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>John.</font></font></blockquote>

</body>
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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:58:34 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #2
To: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
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Hello Rene,
   Yes, I agree the style of the Book Of Hours is suggestive of the
times. I think we can safely say the written manuscript of the Voynich
document is European and that the author has seen copies of the Book Of
Hours, especially since it was the most printed text of its time. I
would like to say that the individual who wrote this manuscript was
brought up and educated in a Christian/Renaissance world. I realize that
this can easily be disputed, but I am looking at high degrees of
probability here. Thank you again.

Regards,
Dana Scott

Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> Various thoughts related to Dana's latest post:
>
> I do not see any clear parallel between the Voynich MS
> and a book of hours, to be honest. If this suggestion
> is based
> on the illustration attached to the earlier E-mail,
> then I
> would say that such illustrations are quite generic
> and may
> be found in many books.
>
> Also, the illustration in Leo looks like a clear
> lioness to
> me. The way in which it is depicted, with the tail
> forward
> between the hind legs and up in the air can be seen in
> other zodiacs as well.
>
> I do like the Dante MS, however. Even though it is
> written and drawn in a very different manner from
> the Voynich MS, the pools with little people inside
> are very suggestive.
>
> Cheers, Rene
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/

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>
>
>     > Well, I'm not a cryptologist but I would like to think that a
>     > cipher system sounds more logical than a codebook of 6000 words
>     > - and I still would rather it turned out to be a natural
>     > language.

Hi,
It is a natural language. At least as far as the 25 lines I have done. The 
encryption is visual not logical. The alphabet was the first wall of 
encryption. The  text is actually the second wall and the words are the 
third wall.  You can't get to the words without knowing the subject matter.
I am putting together something for the group now.

Jim  

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    > [Dana Scott:] I am interested in knowing if the manuscipt has
    > been transcribed to the EVA font.

A complete transcription in the EVA encoding is available at

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/98-12-28-interln16e6/
  
That file actually contains most of the transcriptions that have been
published so far, including Takeshi Takahashi's --- which covers
(almost?) the whole text. The various versions are interleaved and
aligned through the use of "!" fillers. The format (EVMT) is rather
complicated; it is explained in detail within the file itself, and is
understood by Rene's VTT tool.

A character-by-character majority-vote version of all those 
transcriptions is available at

  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voynich/00-06-07-word-grammar/Notes/045/only-m.evt

    > Do we know all the colors associated with each page of the
    > manuscript? Also,

Comments in the interlinear file list the colors that occur
in each page, whenever that information was obtained (mostly
from first-hand reports by Rene and Jim Reeds).  Also, a few
color images are available at Beinecke's WWW site.

All the best,

--stolfi

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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 23:53:50 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > [rene:] A base-60 system as used by the Babylonians and
>     > understood (to the best of my knowledge) by later cultures is
>     > one interesting possibility [to generate the factor `12'] that
>     > comes to mind immediately. The base numbers could be:
>     > 1,5,10,20,60,300,600,1200,3600 Hmmm, only 9, not 12.
> 
> Hm, these could be the nine yes/no slots in the binomial part of
> the code.
> Indeed the Babylonians (and the Greek, Roman, Chinese...) used a
> digit-position code: with different sets of symbols for each position,
> omitting the zeros.  Unfortunately, all but the Romans had several
> choices per slot; so the word length distribution for those
> numerals is not symmetrical.

Agreed, but since we know that not all possible words do exist, even
in the list of words (as opposed to the list of tokens) the
probabilities 'per slot' could be unequal, i.e. for example 0.5
that it's empty and the other 0.5 divided over various options.
Thus, the Roman number system may not be the only choice after all.

Of course, the fact that the list of words does not display a complete
binomial tree is a problem for this whole theory. At the same time,
the observed factor 12 in the word count for each given word length
could suggest various ways out of this. Like I said, more thought
needed.

The idea that the binomial word length distribution could be due to
the combination of a smaller number of (largely) independent
sub-groups with individual symmetric length distributions does of
course take us back to the prefix - stem - suffix construction.
Here, again, the Roman number system (but also Greek and Arabic)
have the interesting property that numbers over 1000 are built
using the character set for the smallest numbers (using a special
indicator for the multiplication by 1000).

Lastly, the various not-quite-but-almost binomial distributions
shown in Jorge's posts mostly differ in the areas of extreme
word lengths. When plotted on a linear scale as in the figure on
Jorge's web page, the difference might not at all be noticeable....
 
Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 28 18:28:35 2000
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Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 00:39:39 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Finding Caramuel's name in Knuth cannot be but a curious
coincidence. He was 10 when Rudolf died.
He was considered an 'enfant terrible', but perhaps not quite
weird enough to have written the VMs, even if it had been
chronologically possible.

Did he ever see the VMs? Perhaps, but then he was away from
Prague most of the time that his good friend Marci had it, and
both he and Kircher were usually in the dark about his 
whereabouts.

Caramuel's interest for Chinese (Oriental) culture is typical
for the age. It is worth remembering that Baresch proposed to
Kircher that the VMs was of Oriental origin (presumably
near-East).
When Marci sent the VMs to Kircher he added in his letter
that there was an alternative option: the Bacon theory as
reported by Raphael, but Marci also expressed his incertitude
about these two theories.
In De Sepi's catalogue of Kircher's museum Kircher's
correspondence is listed but not the VMs. In the same paragraph
mention is made of various oriental books...
Another witness is one Zanoni, contemporary of Kircher and
author of a book about the history of herbal medicine,
who refers to mysterious oriental books with plant drawings 
owned by Kircher. Perhaps this is how K classified the VMs
despite Marci's letter...

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 28 20:32:44 2000
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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:30:33 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #3
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Has it been pointed out that if we look closely at the third circular
diagram (going left-to-right / top-to-bottom)
 1-2-3
 |   |   |
 4-5-6
 |   |   |
 7-8-9
on the fold-out page following folio 85 we can see what looks like a
walled city on the left side of the third diagram? There appears to be a
bridge across to the second circular diagram from the third diagram with
additional buildings and walls. There may also be another tower on the
third diagram (medallion?) with its top pointing to the bridge
connecting to the sixth diagram. If we look closely (may need a
magnifying glass) at the battlements on the walls surrounding the city
on the left side of the third diagram we can see that the architectural
shape of the battlement is the swallow tail style found throughout
Tuscany and other parts of Italy. For example, take a look at the second
and third pages at the following Website:

http://www.castellitoscani.com/prato_foto.htm

My point here is that this is yet another example of a connection to
Italy, and I think more precisely Tuscany with its walled cities.
Admittedly this design can probably be found in other parts of Europe (I
think it may come from Germany actually), but it is prevalent in
Tuscany. Remember now the premise is that everything is purposeful in
the VMS. Yes, I realize that I could draw a pagoda but that doesn't
necessarily mean that I am from Japan. It may be a minor point, but it
is just one more indication of a probable origin.

I know that I am stretching a bit hear, but just for fun lets consider
Taurus the white bull and the Atrological charts for a moment. Notice
the distinct shape of the horns? Not all cows (bulls?) horns look like
this. Believe me, I know. I'm a plantation boy and worked on a dairy
farm when I was a kid. Now lets look at the following pictures (you may
need to page down a bit at the Websites):

http://www.ascomgr.it/turiserv/ph_gall/parc_e.htm
http://www.parks.it/parco.maremma/Epar.html

These are Maremman cattle, well known in Tuscany.

Regards,
Dana Scott




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From jim@mail.rand.org  Thu Dec 28 20:33:21 2000
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From: Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@ic.unicamp.br>
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    > [Rene:] [Caramuel] was 10 when Rudolf died. He was considered an
    > 'enfant terrible', but perhaps not quite weird enough to have
    > written the VMs, even if it had been chronologically possible.

You are taking it as a fact that the VMS did belong to Rudolf and
Jacobus. But the supporting evidence is not very solid. Until we get a
sample of Jacobus's signature, there remains the possibility that the
scribble on f1r was written by a late owner (e.g. Kircher) who read
Marci's letter, searched for a likely "bearer" in sources like
Schmidl, and jumped to the wrong conclusion. And, if the VMS is indeed
a cryptographic prank/test/demo/challenge, then the stylistic clues
may be decoys, Raphael's story may be pure fiction, and the actual
creation date may be late enough for Marci, Caramuel, or Raphael (to
cite only three out of a zillion suspects) to have done it.

As I said, I don't really believe any of this --- I am mainly trying
to be the devil's advocate. Surely you agree that the connections to
Jacobus and Rudolf are an order of magnitude weaker than those 
to Baresch?

BTW: was Jacobus's name scribbled in pencil, or in ink? If the former,
isn't it unusual for someone to write his "ex libris" in pencil? If
the latter, how was it erased? (Iron-gall ink on parchement is
supposed to be water-proof and scratch-proof.) And, if the book at
some time belonged to the Imperial library, and was thought to be
worth 600 ducats, shouldn't it show some mark (stamp, seal,
annotation, etc.) of its proud owner?

    > Caramuel's interest for Chinese (Oriental) culture is typical
    > for the age.
    
Indeed: by the mid-1600's, Chinese culture was fairly acessible to
Europeans like Kircher --- who even had a Chinese-born assistant
working for him in Rome at some time.

On the other hand, there was essentially no direct contact between
Europe and China from the 1300's to about 1540, which is a bit too
late given the stylistic evidence. There are ways around this problem,
though...

    > It is worth remembering that Baresch proposed to
    > Kircher that the VMs was of Oriental origin (presumably
    > near-East).
    
More precisely, that the author was some European who 
had visited some Oriental region. 
    
    > Another witness is one Zanoni, contemporary of Kircher and
    > author of a book about the history of herbal medicine,
    > who refers to mysterious oriental books with plant drawings 
    > owned by Kircher. Perhaps this is how K classified the VMs
    > despite Marci's letter...

Well, Kircher and his colleagues in Rome must have seen right away
that the VMS had nothing to do with Bacon. So K probably believed
Raphael's story, but concluded that poor Rudolf had been duped; and he
subscribed to Baresch's theory as the most plausible one. (Where else
could that script have come from?)

    > Finding Caramuel's name in Knuth cannot be but a curious
    > coincidence. 
    
Ha! That's what you say! It is a Cosmic Ressonance, for sure... 8-)

All the best,

--stolfi

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    > [stolfi:] Indeed the Babylonians (and the Greek, Roman,
    > Chinese...) used a digit-position code: with different sets of
    > symbols for each position, omitting the zeros. Unfortunately,
    > all but the Romans had several choices per slot; so the word
    > length distribution for those numerals is not symmetrical.

    > [Rene:] Agreed, but since we know that not all possible words do
    > exist
    
Do we? We don't know what are the "possible words". Perhaps we *do* 
have 90% of them. If the "cipher" is indeed based on a codebook that was
built on the fly, then that is just what we expect.

    > even in the list of words (as opposed to the list of
    > tokens) the probabilities 'per slot' could be unequal, i.e. for
    > example 0.5 that it's empty and the other 0.5 divided over
    > various options.

I don't follow.

Even if the list of words is incomplete, as long as the probability of
omitting a given word is independent of its length, the word length
distribution (WLD) should retain its original shape --- only the
multiplying factor should change.

On the other hand, if the probability of seeing a given word depends on
its length, then we would need an amazing coincidence to explain the
observed symmetry of the WLD.

So the only plausible explanation for the symmetry of the WLD, I
think, is that the number H_k of *possible* words of length k is
indeed close to C*binom(9,k-1), for some constant C.

Irrespective of the probabilities, if the set of alternatives for each
slot is not symmetrical with respect to length, then the WLD will not
be symmetrical. Suppose, for example, that we have three slots with
alternatives empty/A/a, empty/B/b, empty/C/c (i.e. a base-3 version of
the Greek number system). Then the ideal WLD will be 1:6:12:8. Even if
some fraction of the words were missed, we would still get a WLD with
roughly that shape.

To get a symmetric WLD with the model above, we would need to sample
the set of k-letter words with probability proportional to (1/2)**k.
That doesn't seem a likely scenario: as the text gets longer, the
probability of observing a valid word tends to 1. So we would need
another amazing coincidence between text length and letter
probabilities to explain a symmetric WLD.

    > Lastly, the various not-quite-but-almost binomial distributions
    > shown in Jorge's posts mostly differ in the areas of extreme
    > word lengths. When plotted on a linear scale as in the figure on
    > Jorge's web page, the difference might not at all be noticeable....

Right.  

The binomial distributions for N ~ 10 are already very close to
Gaussians, so the visual fit only gives two parameters: the mean word
length and the deviation. That is enough data to distinguish between
binom(11,k) and binom(9,k-1), say; but is not enough to distinguish
between a model with three 1:2:4:2:1 slots (the Roman numeral
distribution) and one with twelve 1:1 slots (which is binom(12,k)).

Perhaps we can get the needed extra information by looking closely at
the wings of the Voynichese WLD. Unfortunately, that part of the WLD
is the most sensitive to noise. For instance, the few 12-letter words
we find in the VMS are likely to be pairs of words that were
transcribed as one. So we can't even tell for sure what is the maximum
length of a valid Voynichese word.

    > Thus, the Roman number system may not be the only choice after all.

Not *the* Roman system exactly; but the statistics seem to be pointing
towards something of that sort (see my recent reply to John Grove).

    > The idea that the binomial word length distribution could be due to
    > the combination of a smaller number of (largely) independent
    > sub-groups with individual symmetric length distributions does of
    > course take us back to the prefix - stem - suffix construction.

Yes indeed.

Besides being so far the only historical example of a code with
near-binomial WLD, the Roman system is a very illuminating
example, that explains why we haven't been able to identify
the "slots" of the VMS code:

  Imagine a Martian who is given a long random list of subtractive
  Roman numerals, between 1 and 999, somewhat noisy and incomplete;
  and is asked to figure out the code.

  He would quickly discover that the "words" have some kind of layer
  structure: D and C tend to occur near the beginning, X and L near
  the middle, I and V near the end. In particular, IC and VD will be
  absent, as this layer model predicts. 
  
  He would probably notice that the digits V, L, and D occur with
  probability close to 1/2 each, and are mutually independent; and
  that the WLD is surprisingly symmetrical, and almost (but definitely
  not quite) binomial. From that he would rightly deduce that the
  "code" is composed of some number of slots, each to be filled with 
  one element chosen from a length-symmetric set of alternatives.

  But then he would have a rather hard time in figuring out what are
  the slots and the corresponding element strings. The obvious guess
  would be the substrings conisisting of the characters {C,D}, {L,X},
  and {I,V}. However that doesn't work --- for one thing, there are
  words like CXC and XIX where the subsets are interleaved.
  
  He may conjecture that the I is sometimes a pre-modifier and
  sometimes a post-modifier of V and X, but he would not know how to
  resolve the apparent ambiguity in XIV, nor why there are no
  instances of IXV or IXX or XIIV in the sample.
  
  It would take him a flash of genius to guess that IX, even though it
  contains an X, is actually a unit-slot element; and similarly that
  XC is a tens-slot element.

Well, it seems that we are like that Martian. We already have lots of
tantalizing statistics and confusing hints. We have the
crust-core-mantle paradigm, which is essentially a six- or seven-slot
model, depending on how you count. However, we still do not know what
are the valid strings that can be filled in each slot. The obvious
partition by letter class (dealers, gallows, etc.) seems to be
ambiguous. Many combinations seem to be mysteriously forbidden. The
rules governing the placement of <o>s and <e>s seem to be terribly
complicated. And so on.

What we need now, I feel, is only a small flash of genius...

All the best,

--stolfi

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 04:50:40 2000
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From: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
Subject: V-shaped battlements
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Hello Dana,

you should have a look at Dennis Stallings' precedents
web page:
http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voynich.htm
(first bullet under 'My Contributions')
You will find much of interest there.

You will be amused to hear that the two types of
battlements (with
or without the V-notch) are known in Italy as
"ghibellini and guelfi"
respectively.

These battlements may be found in large parts of
northern Italy,
especially just South of the Alps. They are used in
castles of which
I particularly like Fenis, Marostica and Bellinzona
(all well represented
on the web) and on palaces, walls and bridges in many
N.Italian cities
(Padova, Mantua, Verona just to name a few).
The  building most similar to the VMs drawing I found
is a castle
in Fosdinovo, in N. Tuscany. The tomb of Cecilia
Metella along the
Via Appia in Rome is another well-known building with
these
battlements.

Cheers, Rene



__________________________________________________
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From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 07:36:38 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 29 Dec 2000, at 1:24, Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> So the only plausible explanation for the symmetry of the WLD, I
> think, is that the number H_k of *possible* words of length k is
> indeed close to C*binom(9,k-1), for some constant C.

Hi all,

Even I have not contributed anything at all in this thread, I have 
been enjoying it very much.

I agree with John G, this seems a complicated (which is of course 
no reason for rejecting it) way of generating a dictionary.
The discussion seems to be directed in finding a way to fit a model 
to the data, but what is is desperately missing is some evidence 
that this sort of distribution does not happen naturally in another 
language. If one can come with this sort of evidence, then the 
code/nomenclator/etc. theories would gain some ground.

Note that the stats are very much constrained, as Jorge pointed 
out, by the alphabet used. In EVA, the word length distribution (and 
the token as well) has a tail extending to the longer words. This 
seems to be the case in English and Latin, although I have no idea 
whether these fit a binomial model too.

Another item. If this was a numerical nomenclator (words are 
numbers), perhaps the easiest way of "naming" (numbering) the 
words would be to increase the count each time you create a new 
word.
But then one has to sort them by the plain text (!) to keep writing, 
and sort them on their nomenclator entry to read it. So unless this 
is done sequentially, I guess that it would take a fair bit of time...

Moreover, if it is done sequentially, then one would be expecting for 
all (?) the numbers from 1 to 6000, and we know that -at least in 
EVA- we run out of roman numbers very quickly.

Regards,
Gabriel

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 11:04:19 2000
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

>     > [Rene:] Agreed, but since we know that not all possible words do
>     > exist
> 
> Do we? We don't know what are the "possible words". Perhaps we *do*
> have 90% of them. If the "cipher" is indeed based on a codebook that was
> built on the fly, then that is just what we expect.
> 
>     > even in the list of words (as opposed to the list of
>     > tokens) the probabilities 'per slot' could be unequal, i.e. for
>     > example 0.5 that it's empty and the other 0.5 divided over
>     > various options.
> 
> I don't follow.

Let me explain what I had in mind, while not making any statement
about the likelihood that this is what actually happened in 1448 or
thereabouts.

Each slot could either have nothing or a single distinctive character.
This way a dictionary of 511 words could be built up (omitting the 
empty word). When building the dictionary, the author could, for each
slot, use not one single character, but two or three different ones,
which he would pick from, whenever the slot should not be empty. 
Thus the probability that the slot is empty is 0.5, that it has char-1
is 0.25 (for example) and that it has char-2 is also 0.25. In this
way not all possible combinations will be generated.
At the same time, the vocabulary size is still 511.

Alternatively, there could be 511 word patterns, and the dictionary
of 6000 words could be built up by allowing the multiple choices
as a scale factor independent of the word length. This is not a 
very realistic scenario IMHO.

Other ways of obtaining the 12-fold vocabulary size while still
maintaining a symmetric near-binomial length distribution:
- The use of nulls
- Using the 'alternative choice per slot' only at the stage
  of writing the text. I.e. the dictionary has 'okal' but the
  writer could write 'okal', 'otal', 'okar' as he desired.
- A third one which is more interesting.

Both of the first two options have the major problem that they
reduce the size of the actual vocabulary of the underlying text.
In the third option, one could imagine having a system
with fewer variable-length slots, where the individual
distributions are skewed towards short fragments, but the
'multiple-choice' option balances this with a tendency towards
fewer empty slots. (In the end each slot would still have
a symmetric distribution, but the factor 12 would be explained)

I would like to think that the binomial distribution
should be an explainable result of a relatively straightforward
'encoding' by the author. 
All this rather theoretical reasoning should be seen as leading
to clues what this encoding could or could not be.
With encoding I mean nothing more (or less) than the translation
of the source text into the Voynichese alphabet.

And, yes, I also prefer a 'rule' as opposed to a code book,
but the Dalgarno precedent (postcedent??) given by Stolfi stands.

Cheers for now, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 12:35:13 2000
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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> You are taking it as a fact that the VMS did belong to Rudolf and
> Jacobus.

I am in favour of believing it. For one thing, all other details 
of Marci's letter were confirmed by the Baresch letter. Also his
bringing forward of (and suspension of judgment on) the alternative
Baconian origin fits in the scenario. Raphael was a lawyer, which
in those days probably meant that he was a very trustworthy 
character.
In addition, it is absolutely sensible that such a MS surfaced
in Prague at Rudolf's court. Thousands of odd artifacts did.

> But the supporting evidence is not very solid. Until we get a
> sample of Jacobus's signature, there remains the possibility that the
> scribble on f1r was written by a late owner (e.g. Kircher) who read
> Marci's letter, searched for a likely "bearer" in sources like
> Schmidl, and jumped to the wrong conclusion. 

Marci may have heard of Jacobus but I would be surprised if 
Kircher knew of him at all (how about this for an unverifiable
statement :-) ). "Sources like Schmidl" would be Balbin (who
is in fact one of Schmidl's main sources), and there are no
letters from him to Kircher, while he is also not mentioned by
Marci (AFAIK). Oddly enough, since Marci and Balbin were
very good friends.
We may still get to see a copy of a real Jacobus signature. The
fact that there is a document with one in the Clementinum is by
itself supporting evidence.

> As I said, I don't really believe any of this --- I am mainly trying
> to be the devil's advocate. Surely you agree that the connections to
> Jacobus and Rudolf are an order of magnitude weaker than those
> to Baresch?

A little bit weaker, I would agree. But a quote in a letter from
a reliable source like Marci is usually to be taken as good
evidence.

> BTW: was Jacobus's name scribbled in pencil, or in ink? If the former,
> isn't it unusual for someone to write his "ex libris" in pencil? If
> the latter, how was it erased? (Iron-gall ink on parchement is
> supposed to be water-proof and scratch-proof.)

Pass.
The character tables in the right margin were not erased as
effectively as the Jacobus signature, that's all I can say.

> And, if the book at
> some time belonged to the Imperial library, and was thought to be
> worth 600 ducats, shouldn't it show some mark (stamp, seal,
> annotation, etc.) of its proud owner?

In 'Evans' (or the Kunstkammer catalogue by Bauer & Haupt?) 
I read that it is virtually impossible to trace the books once
owned by Rudolf, so evidently no such mark exists.

>     > Finding Caramuel's name in Knuth cannot be but a curious
>     > coincidence.
> 
> Ha! That's what you say! It is a Cosmic Ressonance, for sure... 8-)

In fact, it is not such a big coincidence. If the Kircher
correspondence had not been made available last year, the name
would not have meant all that much.

How about this one: one or two years ago I was browsing a book about
the 30-years war. In the index of names, near where 'Sobiehrd' should
have been (but wasn't) I saw 'Matthias Soop'. This is the name of
a retired colleague of mine (now deceased) whose office I now
inhabit. He was Swedish and indeed a direct descendant of this other 
Matthias Soop who played an important role for the Swedes at one
time during that war...

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 16:20:23 2000
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Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:58:39 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: V-shaped battlements
To: Rene Zandbergen <r_zandbergen@yahoo.com>
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Hello Rene,
     Thank you very much for your help. I am pleased to see that I have
agreement on some of my observations as we struggle to put all of the
pieces of this puzzle together. Seeing this scaled down sketch of a
walled city on the circular diagram makes me wonder if there is at least
a subconscious correlation to Dante's Jerusalem?

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1506/1506.wc.Oiiiir.150dpi.jpeg

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515a/1515a.wc1.150dpi.jpeg

Notice all the V's on Dante's globe? Does this remind you of anything?
Look at the connection between the lower middle circular diagram in the
set of nine interconnected diagrams in the VMS and its connection to the
central circurlar diagram. The V's that appear in the VMS may be a
reference to sunlight (like the inverted V shape of a prism that
refracts white light out into its rainbow colors). An inverted V could
also be a reference to the earth, or perhaps the Supreme Being designing
great plans for the universe with a compass, but I will stick with light
rays for now. The opposite circular diagram (upper middle) shows lots of
o's funneling into the central diagram, which I am inclined to think of
as dew/water. And then we also see clouds (top right) and the sun (top
left corner). This looks a lot like the familiar Earth, Wind, Fire,
Water, Hot, Cold, Wet, Dry type diagrams that I have seen. I will need
to analyze these VMS diagrams a lot more closely. The /// \\\ /// \\\
and /// /// symbols connecting the left central and right central
diagrams may be for the Earth (like furrows in a field) and the Wind
(wisps of clouds?). These four diagrams seem to be all funneling towards
the central diagram as a plant that might be absorbing these energies.
Overall these diagrams also remind me of the philosophical concepts of
the microcosm and the macrocosm.

http://www.golden-dawn.org/four_elements.html

My apologies if this is all old news to you.

Regards,
Dana

Rene Zandbergen wrote:

> Hello Dana,
>
> you should have a look at Dennis Stallings' precedents
> web page:
> http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voynich.htm
> (first bullet under 'My Contributions')
> You will find much of interest there.
>
> You will be amused to hear that the two types of
> battlements (with
> or without the V-notch) are known in Italy as
> "ghibellini and guelfi"
> respectively.
>
> These battlements may be found in large parts of
> northern Italy,
> especially just South of the Alps. They are used in
> castles of which
> I particularly like Fenis, Marostica and Bellinzona
> (all well represented
> on the web) and on palaces, walls and bridges in many
> N.Italian cities
> (Padova, Mantua, Verona just to name a few).
> The  building most similar to the VMs drawing I found
> is a castle
> in Fosdinovo, in N. Tuscany. The tomb of Cecilia
> Metella along the
> Via Appia in Rome is another well-known building with
> these
> battlements.
>
> Cheers, Rene
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/

--------------AA26FDA1A22497068178B80B
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Hello Rene,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you very much for your help. I am pleased
to see that I have agreement on some of my observations as we struggle
to put all of the pieces of this puzzle together. Seeing this scaled down
sketch of a walled city on the circular diagram makes me wonder if there
is at least a subconscious correlation to Dante's Jerusalem?
<p><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1506/1506.wc.Oiiiir.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1506/1506.wc.Oiiiir.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<p><a href="http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1506/1506.wc.Oiiiir.150dpi.jpeg">http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/images/tp1515a/1515a.wc1.150dpi.jpeg</a>
<p>Notice all the V's on Dante's globe? Does this remind you of anything?
Look at the connection between the lower middle circular diagram in the
set of nine interconnected diagrams in the VMS and its connection to the
central circurlar diagram. The V's that appear in the VMS may be a reference
to sunlight (like the inverted V shape of a prism that refracts white light
out into its rainbow colors). An inverted V could also be a reference to
the earth, or perhaps the Supreme Being designing great plans for the universe
with a compass, but I will stick with light rays for now. The opposite
circular diagram (upper middle) shows lots of o's funneling into the central
diagram, which I am inclined to think of as dew/water. And then we also
see clouds (top right) and the sun (top left corner). This looks a lot
like the familiar Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, Hot, Cold, Wet, Dry type diagrams
that I have seen. I will need to analyze these VMS diagrams a lot more
closely. The /// \\\ /// \\\ and /// /// symbols connecting the left central
and right central diagrams may be for the Earth (like furrows in a field)
and the Wind (wisps of clouds?). These four diagrams seem to be all funneling
towards the central diagram as a plant that might be absorbing these energies.
Overall these diagrams also remind me of the philosophical concepts of
the microcosm and the macrocosm.
<p><a href="http://www.golden-dawn.org/four_elements.html">http://www.golden-dawn.org/four_elements.html</a>
<p>My apologies if this is all old news to you.
<p>Regards,
<br>Dana
<p>Rene Zandbergen wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hello Dana,
<p>you should have a look at Dennis Stallings' precedents
<br>web page:
<br><a href="http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voynich.htm">http://www2.micro-net.com/~ixohoxi/voy/voynich.htm</a>
<br>(first bullet under 'My Contributions')
<br>You will find much of interest there.
<p>You will be amused to hear that the two types of
<br>battlements (with
<br>or without the V-notch) are known in Italy as
<br>"ghibellini and guelfi"
<br>respectively.
<p>These battlements may be found in large parts of
<br>northern Italy,
<br>especially just South of the Alps. They are used in
<br>castles of which
<br>I particularly like Fenis, Marostica and Bellinzona
<br>(all well represented
<br>on the web) and on palaces, walls and bridges in many
<br>N.Italian cities
<br>(Padova, Mantua, Verona just to name a few).
<br>The&nbsp; building most similar to the VMs drawing I found
<br>is a castle
<br>in Fosdinovo, in N. Tuscany. The tomb of Cecilia
<br>Metella along the
<br>Via Appia in Rome is another well-known building with
<br>these
<br>battlements.
<p>Cheers, Rene
<p>__________________________________________________
<br>Do You Yahoo!?
<br>Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
<br><a href="http://photos.yahoo.com/">http://photos.yahoo.com/</a></blockquote>
</html>

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 16:30:35 2000
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Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:28:00 +0100
From: "Rafal T. Prinke" <rafalp@amu.edu.pl>
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Oops, I sent it to Rene only...

"Rafal T. Prinke" wrote:
> 
> Rene Zandbergen wrote:
> 
> > Jorge Stolfi wrote:
> >
> > > You are taking it as a fact that the VMS did belong to Rudolf and
> > > Jacobus.
> >
> > I am in favour of believing it. For one thing, all other details
> > of Marci's letter were confirmed by the Baresch letter. Also his
> > bringing forward of (and suspension of judgment on) the alternative
> > Baconian origin fits in the scenario. Raphael was a lawyer, which
> > in those days probably meant that he was a very trustworthy
> > character.
> 
> I would still be a little cautious of jumping to a conclusion
> that the first part of the story is "proven". Marci simply repeated
> what he had heard from Baresch - and we know nothing about him
> and/or his reliability.
> 
> A friend in Prague asked the university information service
> to find out if a person of that name (in variant spellings)
> had been attached to the university - and they found nothing
> (or so they said!).
> 
> I must apologize for not contacting the specialist on
> the Zodiac in Cracow yet - forgot about it but will do that
> next week.
> 
> In the meantime, I remembered I had seen something like
> the VMS Sagittarius somewhere in the astrological books.
> And I have found it on the Web - have a look at:
> 
>   http://www.englib.cornell.edu/mhh4/planets/jupiter.html
> 
> This is from an early (15th c.) German "Planets' Children"
> blockbooks (the planets' children theme was also found in
> some of the Books of Hours - eg. the most beautiful one of
> Duc de Berry). The crossbow man looks *very much* like
> the VMS Sagittarius to me. Also note that the actual
> Sagittarius in a small circle at the feet of Jupiter
> above is represented as a man - not a traditional centaur
> (even though he holds a standard bow).
> 
> I think this confirms the 15th c. German origin as
> stated by Panofsky (a great authority, after all)
> - at least until a better argument is put forward
> (I am not convinced by the humanist hand argument
> and still less by the other Italian origin arguments
> recently presented by Dana - people were coming
> to study in Italy from all over Europe and thus
> were heavily influenced by Renaissance culture
> and art).
> 
> May I take this opportunity to wish all of the VMS-community
> a happy New Year/Century/Millennium. Hopefully
> the VMS will be cracked in one of those time periods <g>.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Rafal

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 18:02:09 2000
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    > Marci may have heard of Jacobus but I would be surprised if 
    > Kircher knew of him at all (how about this for an unverifiable
    > statement :-) ). "Sources like Schmidl" would be Balbin (who
    > is in fact one of Schmidl's main sources), and there are no
    > letters from him to Kircher
    
But Kircher, a Jesuit, surely had easy access to Jesuit history books,
such as Balbin's and Schmidl's: if not in his personal library,
certainly within walking range.

Schmidl devotes an inordinate amount of space to Jacobus, obviously
because it was the Clementinum's finest success story ("rags to riches
thanks to Jesuit education") and a generous benefactor of the Order. I
bet that Jacobus stands out in Balbn, too; and that neither author
devotes so much attention to any other alchemist of Rudolf's time. 
So I don't think it is unikley that some Jesuit in Rome (Kircher, Beckx,
or anyone in between) who tried to identify the "bearer" would have
stumbled upon Jacobus.

    > In 'Evans' (or the Kunstkammer catalogue by Bauer & Haupt?) 
    > I read that it is virtually impossible to trace the books once
    > owned by Rudolf, so evidently no such mark [of ownership] exists.

Ok.

    > How about this one: one or two years ago I was browsing a book about
    > the 30-years war. In the index of names, near where 'Sobiehrd' should
    > have been (but wasn't) I saw 'Matthias Soop'. This is the name of
    > a retired colleague of mine (now deceased) whose office I now
    > inhabit. He was Swedish and indeed a direct descendant of this other 
    > Matthias Soop who played an important role for the Swedes at one
    > time during that war...

See? See?  8-)

All the best,

--stolfi

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Dana wrote:

> as dew/water. And then we also see clouds (top right) and the sun (top
> left corner). This looks a lot like the familiar Earth, Wind, Fire,
> Water, Hot, Cold, Wet, Dry type diagrams that I have seen. I will need
> to analyze these VMS diagrams a lot more closely. The /// \\\ /// \\\

The topology is right (I suggested this interpretation a few years back).
*If* the upper right circle with the castle and what could be a T-O map
does represent Earth, then it's possible to constrain which elements/
qualities the other circles can be (since Earth is a combination of Cold and
Dry, the the lower left circle must be Air (Wet + Hot), with two possible
permutations of what the UL and LR circles are).

By the way, there is no substitute (including the fairly good fold-out B&W
photo in the Kraus catalog) for seeing the fold-out live in all it's
colored glory. It was the highlight of a trip to New England a couple years
ago.

Karl

(PS, I'm finding the whole binomial word length distribution discussion of
intense interest. Can a verbose cipher with rule-based inserted spaces account
for this distribution, or is this the stake through the heart of that theory?
As cruel a trick of Nature's as it would be for a verbose cipher based on
Tiltman's prefixes & suffixes applied to Genesis to generate h1 and h2 values
as close to the Voynich Mss' as it does, if the theory is wrong I'd like to
see it falsified as soon as possible.)

From jim@mail.rand.org  Fri Dec 29 18:37:32 2000
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From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Rafal wrote:

> > > [stolfi]: You are taking it as a fact that the VMS did belong to Rudolf and
> > > Jacobus.
> >
> > [rene]: I am in favour of believing it. For one thing, all other details
> > of Marci's letter were confirmed by the Baresch letter. Also his
> > bringing forward of (and suspension of judgment on) the alternative
> > Baconian origin fits in the scenario. Raphael was a lawyer, which
> > in those days probably meant that he was a very trustworthy
> > character.
> 
> I would still be a little cautious of jumping to a conclusion
> that the first part of the story is "proven". Marci simply repeated
> what he had heard from Baresch - and we know nothing about him
> and/or his reliability.

I don't put too much weight on the opinion that "some people at 
Rudolf's court thought it was Roger Bacon's". Also, I don't worry
too much about what Baresch put forward about the MS. But I do not
really doubt that Jacobus' signature shows he owned it at one time,
and I also do not really doubt the statement of Raphael that it
was bought by Rudolf. Note that the last two come from
independent sources.
The very fact that the Baresch letter exists and that in it he is
asking for Kircher's advice corroborates the Marci letter (in the
sense that he seems to be reporting what he knows or heard).

> A friend in Prague asked the university information service
> to find out if a person of that name (in variant spellings)
> had been attached to the university - and they found nothing
> (or so they said!).

That's a pity. The Sapienza in Rome is still another option.
We have a precise date for that too.
After Claudio Antonini's search in the Beinecke library it
has become totally unclear where Voynich got Baresch' name from.
In fact, the only thing I can think of is that he saw 
Kircher's correspondence and/or talked with Jesuits who did,
but was unable to speak about that afterwards, due to his 
promise of silence.
Voynich did not know the date of Baresch' death and the 
inheritance by Marci of his alchemical library may have been
his guesswork.

> In the meantime, I remembered I had seen something like
> the VMS Sagittarius somewhere in the astrological books.
> And I have found it on the Web - have a look at:
> 
>   http://www.englib.cornell.edu/mhh4/planets/jupiter.html
> 
> This is from an early (15th c.) German "Planets' Children"
> blockbooks (the planets' children theme was also found in
> some of the Books of Hours - eg. the most beautiful one of
> Duc de Berry). The crossbow man looks *very much* like
> the VMS Sagittarius to me. Also note that the actual
> Sagittarius in a small circle at the feet of Jupiter
> above is represented as a man - not a traditional centaur
> (even though he holds a standard bow).

Yes, very 'block book' and very German. In Saxl's
'Verzeichniss' other nice examples can be seen.

> I think this confirms the 15th c. German origin as
> stated by Panofsky (a great authority, after all)
> - at least until a better argument is put forward
> (I am not convinced by the humanist hand argument
> and still less by the other Italian origin arguments
> recently presented by Dana - people were coming
> to study in Italy from all over Europe and thus
> were heavily influenced by Renaissance culture
> and art).

I'm not yet ready to decide.
Is the theme German and the execution Italian? Or
in the block book, where the execution is German, the
theme of the planets' children was widespread. The 
profusely illustrated but otherwise only moderately
useful book 'Alchemie & Mystik' by Alexander Roob
gives a lot of nice examples.

And the humanist hand was proposed by another expert
in his own right.

So here I'll "pull a Marci" and suspend judgement.
A combination of cultural influences (think of Duerer)
or the collaboration of two people from different 
areas should not be excluded either.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 30 05:42:51 2000
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From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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Rafal wrote (to me but I think it was meant for all...):

> > [rene:] and I also do not really doubt the statement of
> > Raphael that it was bought by Rudolf. Note that the last
> > two come from independent sources.
> 
> Right - but this is what has always looked very suspect to me.
> After reading Evans (which I have not read), would you say
> that Rudolf could give a high price for the VMS and then
> just give it away to a relatively unimportant person?

Quite possibly, but the other options (below) are valid too.
Evans talks a bit about Jacobus, and adds things not in Schmidl
(or slightly differently). His source is also Balbin.
According to Evans, the Aqua Sinapis (concocted by Jacobus)
was a medicine believed to be able to cure Rudolf (specifically)
of any ailment. Jacobus then became his private physician. 
According to these sources, on one occasion Jacobus did save
the emperor's life and was subsequently nobilitated. Thus,
for Rudolf, Jacobus was a rather important person.
Also clear from Evans is that Rudolf bought so many items 
continually, for such vast sums of money, that the one book
of 600 ducats (which may well be a misremembered price)
may have been relatively unimportant to him.

Pure speculation of course.

Evans, by the way, also briefly discusses the Voynich MS and
writes that both the Baconian origin and the theory that Dee
sold it to Rudolf are not confirmed by any evidence.
He adds, though, that there are major gaps in Dee's
diary, for which we do not know what he was up to.

> Or maybe it was the other way round - Jacobus had it first,
> signed it and then gave to Rudolf? 

Quite possible. Also possible is that Jacobus simply took it
when Rudolf died, or even bought it. Rudolf's material was
being sold for fractions of its value at this time, as I read
in Dauxois (so to be confirmed by a more accurate source).

> That's right. So the *really* certain history starts with
> Baresch - and we do not know *anything* about him, the only proof
> of his existence are the letters. 

Yes. The supposed independent evidence: a letter which Voynich
would have received from Prague, now seems to have disappeared
on us. This leaves the Sapienza records and possibly the 
Prague records of wills (whatever the correct name for that
would be).

> One could imagine a plot
> by Marci to have the Baresch letters fabricated in order
> to convince Kircher of the reality of VMS. Not that I believe it,
> but who knows? Until we have an independent proof that there was
> someone named Baresch in Prague and had a sizeable library,
> anything is just guesswork.

Yes, but with different levels of probability attached to the 
various guesses :-)

> What I meant is that the crossbow man really looks like
> the VMS Sagittarius and that I have not seen that sign
> represented by a man rather than a centaur elsewhere.
> Are there any examples of non-German non-centaur
> Sagittarius?

He does indeed. I found out I have copies of some illustrations
from the same block book (in German) but these are not including
Sagittarius.
Certainly, there are German Sagitarii which _are_ centaurs, but
that doesn't really help. I'll scan a few nice images from
a book called 'Flores Albumasaris' printed in Augsburg around
1480. They're woodcuts but allow a nice comparison with some
of the VMs images. Sagittarius is a Centaur here.
 
> > And the humanist hand was proposed by another expert
> > in his own right.
> 
> But the humanist hand does not mean "Italy". It was
> used in Poland (probably introduced by many Italians
> coming here from the late 15th c. on) and certainly
> also in Bohemia and parts of Germany. 

I was personally also impressed by the similarity with
the cipher alphabets used in Italy (and Spain) in the
15th Century.

As a side note on the humanist hand:
I recently saw some samples of the handwriting of
George of Trebizond. He was a humanist
scholar from the time when the VMs was supposedly written,
but his handwriting (also when writing Latin) betrays his
Greek origin and it looks nothing like the VMs. Now his
son Andreas, who was probably born and raised in Italy
had a very even, round hand.

Cheers, Rene

From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 30 08:15:57 2000
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From: "Gabriel Landini" <G.Landini@bham.ac.uk>
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On 29 Dec 2000, at 17:14, Rene Zandbergen wrote:
> I would like to think that the binomial distribution
> should be an explainable result of a relatively straightforward
> 'encoding' by the author. 

Yes, so do I, but I insist :-) unless we are sure that such a binomial 
distribution does not happen naturally in languages, I think it is a 
bit too optimistic to assume one could be sure of the way a 
dictionnary was generated.

By "not happening naturally" I mean going from a known dictionary 
and joining, discarding letters, abbreviating, inserting nulls, etc, to 
arrive to something similar to the vms in terms of word length.

My point is that one may end with such distribution by different 
procedures, one of which is Stolfi's slot machine.

More specifically, if the number of slots is increased, can one 
generate a distribution of word lengths like English, Latin,  French, 
Italian, etc?

Regards to all, happy new year.
Gabriel


From jim@mail.rand.org  Sat Dec 30 19:48:42 2000
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Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 16:26:49 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Clothing and hairstyles
To: Bruce Grant <bgrant@mail.msen.com>
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The spinning top/spindle you refer to looks something like the second symbol on
the top row of the panel concerning Hermetic Gnosis at the following URL:

http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-17.html

Regards,
Dana Scott

Bruce Grant wrote:

> John Grove wrote:
>
> > Take a look at the object behind the 2nd nymph top left -- it seems to
> > have a solid center piece like a spinning top.
> >
>
> That object looks like it might be a spindle, a tools for twisting yarn into
> thread.
>
> Bruce

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Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 23:14:05 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #4
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     I imagine that there has already been a considerable amount of
discussion concerning Alchemy in the Voynich manuscript. In fact,
Alchemy seems to have a major role in the VMS. A key to recognizing the
connection to Alchemy can be found at the bottom of folio f79v where we
see a group of animals including a naked nymph with a fish body and
tail, a salmander, maybe a white dog, a white horse (donkey?), and what
looks like the carcass of a ram arched above the horse's head. I have
seen this carcass before. Could this be the well known Golden Fleece
from the wonderful epic adventures of Jason and the Argonauts that had
magical powers to heal? Yes, I think so. What look like strings or
threads connected to stars (or flowers?) in the VMS are possibly a
reference to the Ariadne's thread.

Hermeticism And The Golden Fleece
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/caezza3.html

Theseus And The Thread of Ariadne
http://greekmythology.com/Books/Bulfinch/B_Chapter_20/b_chapter_20.html

The creature at f25v has been labeled a dragon, there are serpents at
f49r, birds at 86v, and what looks like a toad at 102r2(?). Animals have
a key role in Alchemy and Hermetic Gnosis and there are explanations for
those found in the VMS.
     It seems to me that the experimental trays with the elaborate
tubing come under the category of the philosophy of nature and the
mysterious realm of the alchemist. There is nothing really mysterious
about seeing this in the VMS. Alchemy was the precursor to modern day
chemistry. Alchemists believed in the seed that could grow metals just
as a plant seed grows plants. They were looking for the elixir, the
Philosopher's Stone, thought to be found in all life.
     The properties of pollination and sexual reproduction in plants had
not yet been clearly defined, but it certainly makes sense that a
botanist might study the properties of seeds and how they geminate and
absorb nutrients from the earth that are essential for their growth. And
just how do plants figure out that shoots must grow upwards and roots
grow downwards without fail? The forces of nature that cause the shoots
of plants to grow upward lead to a discussion of the 'spirit' contained
within all life, including the plant growth process. But where is the
heart, the organ that pumps the water, saps, and nutrients throughout
the plant. What are forces of Nature that seem to oppose the forces of
gravity? Understand that early botanists and other 'scientists' did not
yet use the term science. Instead they spoke of the philosophy of
nature. Humanists were uncomfortable accepting the philosophical and
religious teachings of their time without practical, hands on experience
and examination as verification of these teachings. They sought physical
proof to help verify the concepts of the spirit and the life cycle, from
the dark depths of the ground all the way up to the sunlight in the sky.

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/books/wil-plat/npa-2.htm

      My impression is that the naked ladies in the experimental baths
and tubing are most likely the seeds of plants. The crowns and hand held
wands, the position of the arms and legs, and their hair sytles would
all be important labels for the alchemist. A name that might be applied
to all these nymphs of the underworld may be Mother Nature to the
alchemist. I am not certain about what they hold in their hands, but one
of the objects that looks like a bobbin (spool/spindle), seems vaguely
familiar from a botanical point of view. See the wand in the left hand
of the crowned naked queen at the top left corner of f80v? This object
reminds me of the pistil of a flower with its ovary, ovules, style, and
stigma. Maybe, maybe not. It is probably a bobbin symbol known to
alchemists. I'll have to study these wands a bit more before drawing any
real conclusions. Perhaps someone else has already identified them? The
study of alchemy can be as complicated as the study of chemistry is
today; however, at least an introductory level of alchemy should be
understood to fully appreciate the aspects of alchemy that pertain to
the VMS. For a modern day scientist, alchemy can actually be quite
interesting.

Pistil
http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/tfplab/ovary.jpg

Bobbin
http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-17.html

     Note also the structure of the tubing directly above the nymph
being consumed by a fish in f79v. There seems to be a similarity to the
12 tube groups seen in the central set of nine circular diagrams
following f85 that look somewhat like plant cross sections. I believe
the VMS botanist was interested in vascular plant physiology and the
cycle of flow of nutrients and liquids within plants. Notice that there
are portals at the base of the experimental tray on f78v. These may have
been used to provide heat or a flame to a solution in the tray. I wonder
if the tray at f78v connects to the tubes at the left side of 81r?
Maybe. After a lot more is known about the contents of the VMS, it might
be possible to repeat these experiments.

Chains, Orbs, and two-headed eagles also appear in alchemy. There is a
set of three folios (f85?) just prior to f86 and following the set of
nine diagrams. The left hand diagram in the set of three folios shows a
circular diagram with what looks like four plumes or fountains curving
off at the edge of the diagram. There are four figures in the center
section of the diagram around the sun that is in the center of the
diagram. One of the four figures is holding what looks like an orb and
the other is holding the links of a chain. These are most like
references to alchemy. A third figure may be holding a bird. On the
first page of the VMS there are two large characters that look like they
may also be a reference to alchemy. The first looks like the
double-headed eagle and the second looks like the Regulus symbol
referenced in D'Imperio's "The Voynich Manuscript -- An Elegent Enigma"
(p.120) with smoke rising in the middle.

Chains, Orb, Two-headed Eagle
http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/silent-22.html
http://www.alchemylab.com/Hermes%20series.htm
http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-24.html

Large Index on Alchemy
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/fr-index.html


Regards,
Dana Scott


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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I imagine that there has already been a considerable
amount of discussion concerning Alchemy in the Voynich manuscript. In fact,
Alchemy seems to have a major role in the VMS. A key to recognizing the
connection to Alchemy can be found at the bottom of folio f79v where we
see a group of animals including a naked nymph with a fish body and tail,
a salmander, maybe a white dog, a white horse (donkey?), and what looks
like the carcass of a ram arched above the horse's head. I have seen this
carcass before. Could this be the well known Golden Fleece from the wonderful
epic adventures of Jason and the Argonauts that had magical powers to heal?
Yes, I think so. What look like strings or threads connected to stars (or
flowers?) in the VMS are possibly a reference to the Ariadne's thread.
<p>Hermeticism And The Golden Fleece
<br><a href="http://www.levity.com/alchemy/caezza3.html">http://www.levity.com/alchemy/caezza3.html</a>
<p>Theseus And The Thread of Ariadne
<br><a href="http://greekmythology.com/Books/Bulfinch/B_Chapter_20/b_chapter_20.html">http://greekmythology.com/Books/Bulfinch/B_Chapter_20/b_chapter_20.html</a>
<p>The creature at f25v has been labeled a dragon, there are serpents at
f49r, birds at 86v, and what looks like a toad at 102r2(?). Animals have
a key role in Alchemy and Hermetic Gnosis and there are explanations for
those found in the VMS.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It seems to me that the experimental trays
with the elaborate tubing come under the category of the philosophy of
nature and the mysterious realm of the alchemist. There is nothing really
mysterious about seeing this in the VMS. Alchemy was the precursor to modern
day chemistry. Alchemists believed in the seed that could grow metals just
as a plant seed grows plants. They were looking for the elixir, the Philosopher's
Stone, thought to be found in all life.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The properties of pollination and sexual reproduction
in plants had not yet been clearly defined, but it certainly makes sense
that a botanist might study the properties of seeds and how they geminate
and absorb nutrients from the earth that are essential for their growth.
And just how do plants figure out that shoots must grow upwards and roots
grow downwards without fail? The forces of nature that cause the shoots
of plants to grow upward lead to a discussion of the 'spirit' contained
within all life, including the plant growth process. But where is the heart,
the organ that pumps the water, saps, and nutrients throughout the plant.
What are forces of Nature that seem to oppose the forces of gravity? Understand
that early botanists and other 'scientists' did not yet use the term science.
Instead they spoke of the philosophy of nature. Humanists were uncomfortable
accepting the philosophical and religious teachings of their time without
practical, hands on experience and examination as verification of these
teachings. They sought physical proof to help verify the concepts of the
spirit and the life cycle, from the dark depths of the ground all the way
up to the sunlight in the sky.
<p><a href="http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/books/wil-plat/npa-2.htm">http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/books/wil-plat/npa-2.htm</a>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My impression is that the naked ladies
in the experimental baths and tubing are most likely the seeds of plants.
The crowns and hand held wands, the position of the arms and legs, and
their hair sytles would all be important labels for the alchemist. A name
that might be applied to all these nymphs of the underworld may be Mother
Nature to the alchemist. I am not certain about what they hold in their
hands, but one of the objects that looks like a bobbin (spool/spindle),
seems vaguely familiar from a botanical point of view. See the wand in
the left hand of the crowned naked queen at the top left corner of f80v?
This object reminds me of the pistil of a flower with its ovary, ovules,
style, and stigma. Maybe, maybe not. It is probably a bobbin symbol known
to alchemists. I'll have to study these wands a bit more before drawing
any real conclusions. Perhaps someone else has already identified them?
The study of alchemy can be as complicated as the study of chemistry is
today; however, at least an introductory level of alchemy should be understood
to fully appreciate the aspects of alchemy that pertain to the VMS. For
a modern day scientist, alchemy can actually be quite interesting.
<p>Pistil
<br><a href="http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/tfplab/ovary.jpg">http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/tfplab/ovary.jpg</a>
<p>Bobbin
<br><a href="http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-17.html">http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-17.html</a>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Note also the structure of the tubing directly
above the nymph being consumed by a fish in f79v. There seems to be a similarity
to the 12 tube groups seen in the central set of nine circular diagrams
following f85 that look somewhat like plant cross sections. I believe the
VMS botanist was interested in vascular plant physiology and the cycle
of flow of nutrients and liquids within plants. Notice that there are portals
at the base of the experimental tray on f78v. These may have been used
to provide heat or a flame to a solution in the tray. I wonder if the tray
at f78v connects to the tubes at the left side of 81r? Maybe. After a lot
more is known about the contents of the VMS, it might be possible to repeat
these experiments.
<p>Chains, Orbs, and two-headed eagles also appear in alchemy. There is
a set of three folios (f85?) just prior to f86 and following the set of
nine diagrams. The left hand diagram in the set of three folios shows a
circular diagram with what looks like four plumes or fountains curving
off at the edge of the diagram. There are four figures in the center section
of the diagram around the sun that is in the center of the diagram. One
of the four figures is holding what looks like an orb and the other is
holding the links of a chain. These are most like references to alchemy.
A third figure may be holding a bird. On the first page of the VMS there
are two large characters that look like they may also be a reference to
alchemy. The first looks like the double-headed eagle and the second looks
like the Regulus symbol referenced in D'Imperio's "The Voynich Manuscript
-- An Elegent Enigma" (p.120) with smoke rising in the middle.
<p>Chains, Orb, Two-headed Eagle
<br><a href="http://www.greatdreams.com/jason/jason.htm">http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/silent-22.html</a>
<br><a href="http://www.greatdreams.com/jason/jason.htm">http://www.alchemylab.com/Hermes%20series.htm</a>
<br><a href="http://www.greatdreams.com/jason/jason.htm">http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-24.html</a>
<p>Large Index on Alchemy
<br><a href="http://www.greatdreams.com/jason/jason.htm">http://www.levity.com/alchemy/fr-index.html</a>
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Regards,
<br>Dana Scott
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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From jim@mail.rand.org  Sun Dec 31 05:44:33 2000
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Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:56:25 +0100
From: Zandbergen@t-online.de (Rene Zandbergen)
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There is of course quite a lot in Dana's most recent post
which may be challenged.
The problem is that many (if not most) of the images in
the VMs are open to various interpretations. It is not
clear to me how one can decide which is right.

>      I imagine that there has already been a considerable amount of
> discussion concerning Alchemy in the Voynich manuscript. In fact,
> Alchemy seems to have a major role in the VMS.

Alchemy has been discussed, and people who really know the
subject intimately are of the clear opinion that alchemy is 
_not_ one of the main subjects in the Voynich MS. It is 
evidently possible to assign an alchemical meaning to some
of the illustrations, but what's important is
that none of the main alchemical subjects, nor any of the
main types of alchemical illustrations can be found in the
VMs. At least that is how I understand Adam McLean's argument.

> A key to recognizing
> the connection to Alchemy can be found at the bottom of folio f79v
> where we see a group of animals including a naked nymph with a fish
> body and tail, a salmander, maybe a white dog, a white horse
> (donkey?), and what looks like the carcass of a ram arched above the
> horse's head. I have seen this carcass before. Could this be the well
> known Golden Fleece...

In this page I see a lot of heraldic elements, so we have at 
least two different interpretations. The cross is clear. The
mystery object below could be a garter (knights of the garter) 
then the salamander, the golden fleece and what to me looks like
a heraldic lion (with claws and all).
Now what all these heraldic signs would be doing here in the VMs is
unclear to me, so I will not say that my interpretation is the
right one. 

[...]

> I believe
> the VMS botanist was interested in vascular plant physiology and the
> cycle of flow of nutrients and liquids within plants. 

I don't know. Wouldn't this be a subject for a much later age than
where the VMs probably comes from?

> I wonder if the tray at f78v connects to the tubes at the left
> side of 81r? 

Well noticed. They do. This tells us that f79 and f80 may be in 
the wrong place...

> On the first page of the VMS there are two large characters
> that look like they may also be a reference to alchemy. The
> first looks like the double-headed eagle and the second looks
> like the Regulus symbol referenced in D'Imperio's
> "The Voynich Manuscript -- An Elegent Enigma" (p.120) with
> smoke rising in the middle.

The first symbol looks exactly like the astrological Aries
symbol in the old style. Unfortunately, I cannot find anymore
the gif of an old Greek illustration that contained it. It is
indeed also similar to the Regulus symbol given by d'Imperio.
These are both astrological symbols.
The second one looks very similar indeed, with smoke rising
in the middle, but I have not yet found a satisfactory 
explanation for it.

More could be said, I'm sure. One really has to be very careful
building a hypothesis about the origin of the MS based on
assumed interpretations of the illustrations, in the face of
so many alternative explanations.

Best wishes to all,
             Rene

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    > [Rafal:] Until we have an independent proof that there was
    > someone named Baresch in Prague and had a sizeable library,
    > anything is just guesswork.

Baresh refers to the VMS as "uselessly taking up space in my
library".  While that is of course only a figure of speech,
the fact that he chose those words may mean that his library
was not a particularly large one. 8-)

    > [Rene:] George of Trebizond['s writing] betrays his
    > Greek origin and it looks nothing like the VMs. Now his
    > son Andreas, who was probably born and raised in Italy
    > had a very even, round hand.

Interesting!  Do you know Andreas's birthdate?

--stolfi

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Jorge Stolfi wrote:

> Baresh refers to the VMS as "uselessly taking up space in my
> library".  While that is of course only a figure of speech,
> the fact that he chose those words may mean that his library
> was not a particularly large one. 8-)

Or that it was a large number of books in a relatively small
space (like my own library!). I am pretty sure now that Baresch
must have been a wealthy burgher - it was rather typical for
young members of such families to get good education and afterwards
they often had substantial collections of books - even though
they were not "active" scholars or scientists. I have seen 
a number of post mortem inventories of Polish burghers of
the 16th and 17th c. and some of them had really large libraries.

Best regards,

Rafal

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Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:12:18 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #4
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Hello Rene,
     Thank you for your comments. It is difficult to decide conclusively

whether or not there is an Alchemical element within the VMS without
first
understanding the contents of the related text. For now it is probably
best
to say that there is evidence of experimentation. It is interesting that

you mention the heraldic aspect of the animals. I will have a bit more
on
that reference later today.

Happy New Year/Millenium,
Dana

"Dana F. Scott" wrote:

>      I imagine that there has already been a considerable amount of
> discussion concerning Alchemy in the Voynich manuscript. In fact,
> Alchemy seems to have a major role in the VMS. A key to recognizing
> the connection to Alchemy can be found at the bottom of folio f79v
> where we see a group of animals including a naked nymph with a fish
> body and tail, a salmander, maybe a white dog, a white horse
> (donkey?), and what looks like the carcass of a ram arched above the
> horse's head. I have seen this carcass before. Could this be the well
> known Golden Fleece from the wonderful epic adventures of Jason and
> the Argonauts that had magical powers to heal? Yes, I think so. What
> look like strings or threads connected to stars (or flowers?) in the
> VMS are possibly a reference to the Ariadne's thread.
>
> Hermeticism And The Golden Fleece
> http://www.levity.com/alchemy/caezza3.html
>
> Theseus And The Thread of Ariadne
> http://greekmythology.com/Books/B
> lfinch/B_Chapter_20/b_chapter_20.html
>
> The creature at f25v has been labeled a dragon, there are serpents at
> f49r, birds at 86v, and what looks like a toad at 102r2(?). Animals
> have a key role in Alchemy and Hermetic Gnosis and there are
> explanations for those found in the VMS.
>      It seems to me that the experimental trays with the elaborate
> tubing come under the category of the philosophy of nature and the
> mysterious realm of the alchemist. There is nothing really mysterious
> about seeing this in the VMS. Alchemy was the precursor to modern day
> chemistry. Alchemists believed in the seed that could grow metals just
> as a plant seed grows plants. They were looking for the elixir, the
> Philosopher's Stone, thought to be found in all life.
>      The properties of pollination and sexual reproduction in plants
> had not yet been clearly defined, but it certainly makes sense that a
> botanist might study the properties of seeds and how they geminate and
> absorb nutrients from the earth that are essential for their growth.
> And just how do plants figure out that shoots must grow upwards and
> roots grow downwards without fail? The forces of nature that cause the
> shoots of plants to grow upward lead to a discussion of the 'spirit'
> contained within all life, including the plant growth process. But
> where is the heart, the organ that pumps the water, saps, and
> nutrients throughout the plant. What are forces of Nature that seem to
> oppose the forces of gravity? Understand that early botanists and
> other 'scientists' did not yet use the term science. Instead they
> spoke of the philosophy of nature. Humanists were uncomfortable
> accepting the philosophical and religious teachings of their time
> without practical, hands on experience and examination as verification
> of these teachings. They sought physical proof to help verify the
> concepts of the spirit and the life cycle, from the dark depths of the
> ground all the way up to the sunlight in the sky.
>
> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/books/wil-plat/npa-2.htm
>
>       My impression is that the naked ladies in the experimental baths
> and tubing are most likely the seeds of plants. The crowns and hand
> held wands, the position of the arms and legs, and their hair sytles
> would all be important labels for the alchemist. A name that might be
> applied to all these nymphs of the underworld may be Mother Nature to
> the alchemist. I am not certain about what they hold in their hands,
> but one of the objects that looks like a bobbin (spool/spindle), seems
> vaguely familiar from a botanical point of view. See the wand in the
> left hand of the crowned naked queen at the top left corner of f80v?
> This object reminds me of the pistil of a flower with its ovary,
> ovules, style, and stigma. Maybe, maybe not. It is probably a bobbin
> symbol known to alchemists. I'll have to study these wands a bit more
> before drawing any real conclusions. Perhaps someone else has already
> identified them? The study of alchemy can be as complicated as the
> study of chemistry is today; however, at least an introductory level
> of alchemy should be understood to fully appreciate the aspects of
> alchemy that pertain to the VMS. For a modern day scientist, alchemy
> can actually be quite interesting.
>
> Pistil
> http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/tfplab/ovary.jpg
>
> Bobbin
> http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-17.html
>
>      Note also the structure of the tubing directly above the nymph
> being consumed by a fish in f79v. There seems to be a similarity to
> the 12 tube groups seen in the central set of nine circular diagrams
> following f85 that look somewhat like plant cross sections. I believe
> the VMS botanist was interested in vascular plant physiology and the
> cycle of flow of nutrients and liquids within plants. Notice that
> there are portals at the base of the experimental tray on f78v. These
> may have been used to provide heat or a flame to a solution in the
> tray. I wonder if the tray at f78v connects to the tubes at the left
> side of 81r? Maybe. After a lot more is known about the contents of
> the VMS, it might be possible to repeat these experiments.
>
> Chains, Orbs, and two-headed eagles also appear in alchemy. There is a
> set of three folios (f85?) just prior to f86 and following the set of
> nine diagrams. The left hand diagram in the set of three folios shows
> a circular diagram with what looks like four plumes or fountains
> curving off at the edge of the diagram. There are four figures in the
> center section of the diagram around the sun that is in the center of
> the diagram. One of the four figures is holding what looks like an orb
> and the other is holding the links of a chain. These are most like
> references to alchemy. A third figure may be holding a bird. On the
> first page of the VMS there are two large characters that look like
> they may also be a reference to alchemy. The first looks like the
> double-headed eagle and the second looks like the Regulus symbol
> referenced in D'Imperio's "The Voynich Manuscript -- An Elegent
> Enigma" (p.120) with smoke rising in the middle.
>
> Chains, Orb, Two-headed Eagle
> http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/silent-22.html
> http://www.alchemylab.com/Hermes%20series.htm
> http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/hermgnos-24.html
>
> Large Index on Alchemy
> http://www.levity.com/alchemy/fr-index.html
>
>
> Regards,
> Dana Scott
>

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Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:41:23 -0800
From: "Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@pacbell.net>
Subject: Voynich -- Opening The Doors #5
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     As we work our way through the mysteries of the Voynich manuscript
we are constantly searching for an accurate translation of the text, the
nature of the contents of the manuscript, and the name of the author of
this fabulous document. Part of the enjoyment in unraveling its secrets
is that we are all free to make our choices and opinions, adjusting our
thoughts as we proceed. Our favorite selections help to serve as a focal
point in our evaluation of the manuscript. I too have my favorites, but
I am always interested in all opinions and observations and will quickly
change my preferences when a better and more favorable approach tips the
scales in a new direction.
     From the wide range of possibilities for who might be the most
likely author of the VMS, currently on the top of my list is Andrea
Cesalpino, a scholar well known as a significant contributor in the
science of Botany and medicine. He was born in Arezzo, Tuscany, on June
5 (6?), 1525 (this year is an adjustment from an earlier estimation of
1519). His father was an Artisan (mason) in Arezzo who was able to
support his son's enrollment at the University of Pisa where Andrea
earned both MD and PhD degrees. In addition to Botany, he studied the
human circulatory system and described the functioning of the heart
valve. He was interested in plant morphology and metallurgy. Galileo was
one of his students. As Dante had chosen Virgil and Beatrice to be his
guides, so it appears that Andrea had chosen his guide, Aristotle,  in
one of his books. He was director of the second Botanical garden at Pisa
and his collection of plants, his Herbariuum, is preserved in Florence.
A great deal is known about him. He is well published. I believe there
are even streets named after him in Arezzo, Florence, and Milan, and
there is a Fondazione named after him at La Sapienza. His name occurs in
Botanical plant classifications. After a distinguished career at Pisa he
went to teach medicine at La Sapienza in Rome and was personal physician
to Pope Clement VIII. He died in Rome on February 23 (or March?), 1603.
The more I learn about Andrea Cesalpino, the more I am impressed by him
as an excellent candidate for having penned the Voynich manuscript, but
as always, without further corroboration, this is just one individual's
choice from a wide range of possibilities.

Portrait, Andrea Cesalpino
http://www.dsb.unipi.it/HBP/Cards/Pictus/imcesa-rett.html

Biography (English)
http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hort/history/034.html
http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Catalog/Files/ceslpino.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03545c.htm
http://www.bartlebee.net/65/ca/Caesalpi.html
http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9025479/medhist/biographie/cesalpino.html
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/Frank/People/cesalpin.html
http://www.fwkc.com/encyclopedia/low/articles/c/c004001337f.html

Biography (Italian)
http://www.didael.it/Ortobot/universi/persone/cesalpin.htm
http://www.dsb.unipi.it/HBP/Cards/Pictus/biocesa-i.html
http://campus.sede.enea.it/internetscuola/ortobot/universi/persone/cesalpin.htm

Statue of Andrea Cesalpino
http://clendening.kumc.edu/dc/rm/16_29p.jpg

Cesalpino's Herbarium
http://astr17pi.difi.unipi.it/CITD/1997/ElenaSalsi/colleze.htm

Herbarium, Andrea Cesalpino
(make following selections: Botanic --> Collections --> Historic
pre-linnaean herbaria)
http://www.unifi.it/unifi/msn/main_eng.htm

Florence Herbarium
http://www.dipbot.unict.it/Erbario/locali.html

Fondazione "Andrea Cesalpino" - Universit La Sapienza, Roma (example of
a report)
http://www.emergenzaecstasy.it/levrero.html

Arezzo
http://www.firenze.net/events/itineraries/arezzo.htm
http://www.arezzoweb.com/Rubriche/Dintorni/arezzo_uk.asp

Arezzo, Andrea Cesalpino on mural painting with other famous dignitaries
(middle right panel)
http://www.cittadiarezzo.com/ita/storia/illu.htm

Arezzo City Banner
http://www.peterpan.it/picmuseo/arstemma.jpg

Hortus Botanicus Pisanus (click on portrait to enlarge)
http://www.dsb.unipi.it/HBP/Htmls/Pictus/prefetti-i.html

La Sapienza
http://www.unimo.it/ortobot/horti/CD/Roma1/Fig3.htm

Universit degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza"
http://www.ips.it/musis/main_mus.html

Orto Botanico dell'Universit di Roma "La Sapienza"
http://www.unimo.it/ortobot/horti/CD/Roma1/Roma1home.html

Botanic Garden
http://astr17pi.difi.unipi.it/CITD/1997/AlessandroBonaccorsi/500e.htm

Botany
http://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/biologie/b_online/e01/01h.htm

De Plantis, by Theophrastus, student of Aristotle
http://www.oseda.missouri.edu/~kate/guardians/gailsden/art/theo.html

Galileo on Dante's Inferno
http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/text/Galileo.html

Aristotle
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01713a.htm
http://galileo.imss.firenze.it/vuoto/earist.html

Portrait, Aristotle (interesting similarities to Andrea's portrait; book
and beard)
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/aristotle.html

Renaissance Humanism
http://www.pagesz.net/~stevek/intellect/humanism.html

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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 07:50:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
To: Bruce Grant <bgrant@msen.com>
Cc: voynich@rand.org
Subject: Re: Clothing and hairstyles
In-Reply-To: <3A4951B1.C34073D2@mail.msen.com>
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 Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:19:30 -0500
 From: Bruce Grant <bgrant@msen.com>
 To: voynich@rand.org
 Subject: Re: Clothing and hairstyles
 
 
 
 John Grove wrote:
 
 > Take a look at the object behind the 2nd nymph top left -- it seems to
 > have a solid center piece like a spinning top.
 >
 
 That object looks like it might be a spindle, a tools for twisting yarn into
 thread.
 
 Bruce
 
 --------------------------
S P I N that DNA/RNA .. (it seems) The further away the nymphs are
from the bottom of a page (or the center) the more apt they are to
have their ARMS BEHIND their back (AND/or their leg(s) LIFTED).. 

The final 'output' is secured to the 'womb lining' in many pics that
have multiple females..  This, (to me) still reflects favorable to the
'Blood-Linage' of the author's intent... but, it _oddly_ (curiously)
would cover a TIME Span of blood-lines of 800-1200+ years?

(ok, ok, "s/he" could have been a very 'fertile turtle' (ha.haaa))
 
best to you & yours this New Year!

-=se=-
steve (how OLD was this guy anyway?) ekwall

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                      RULES IN THE Voynich MANUSCRIPT
                                     by
                              Antoine CASANOVA
________________________________________________________________________
___

Address
-------

6, Allee des erables, 93140 BONDY (France).

E-mail
------

Voynich@club-internet.fr

Summary
-------

>From  the  transcriptions  of  Captain  Prescott  Currier  and  William
 F.
Friedman, we  show that the terms of the  Voynich manuscript are built
with
synthetic rules.  The results which we obtain  could lead us to
consolidate
the  John Tiltman's  assumption according  to which the  Voynich
manuscript
would be written with a synthetic universal language.

Key words
---------

Voynich manuscript,  ciphers, ciphered manuscript,  rules, structure,
term.

Theory
------

In the  Voynich manuscript, it was noted by Currier  [2] and by Tiltman
[3]
[5] that "words" or  "sentences" differ from each other by only one
symbol,
as  8AR  differs from  SAR,  although this  characteristic is found  in
the
written natural language, one  does not note it within the same
proportion.

The  assumption  raised by  Tiltman,  and  according to  which the
written
language  of the  manuscript  is probably  a synthetic  universal
language,
could be the cause of this characteristic.

Indeed,  in  the  universal  language of  Raymond  Lulle  but  also in
the
universal language  of Athanasius  Kircher, Dalgarno or  Wilkins, the
words
and  the  sentences  are  successively  repeated  and differ  only  on
the
substantive, the  adjective, the verb of the  proposal or on another
symbol
used as a changer of reference [4].

However, until now, it  has not been proven yet that the Voynich
manuscript
was written with a  synthetic language. Indeed, the manuscript may not
be a
real cryptogram for one  could just as easily support the thesis of the
use
of a phonetic written form.

We propose here to  show that the terms of the Voynich manuscript are
built
with  synthetic rules  which exclude  the assumption  of a  written
natural
language.

Method
------

The  method suggested  rests  on the  calculation of  the  Hamming
distance
between  the terms  of the manuscript  [1]. We  extract the terms  from
the
Voynich  manuscript and  we gather  them according  to their  dimension.
We
obtain groups of terms.  Each term has as many positions of substitution
as
it contains letters. In  each group of terms we enter the Hamming
distances
equal   to   the   unit   on  each   possible   position   of  each
term.

Results
-------

At the  conclusion of the operation  of accounting we come  to a table
with
two entries: The dimensions  of the terms and the possible positions of
the
substitutions  of letters within  each term.  At the intersection  of
these
entries  is the  accounting  of the  Hamming distances  equal to  the
unit.

>From the  two transcriptions, reviewed  and corrected by the  EVMT, made
by
Captain Prescott  Currier and by William F.  Friedman, we obtain two
series
of results which are shown in Table 1 and in Table 2.

                    Term \   1   2   3   4  5   6  7  8
                    Position
                    3        177 55  108
                    4        247 150 117 154
                    5        269 131 163 112143
                    6        130 67  86  49 52  70
                    7        40  21  27  29 17  11 18
                    8        1   2   6   6  2   2  2  3

             Table 1 Currier's transcription. On the basis of 4415
terms.

                    Term \  1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8
                    Position
                    3       194 120 158
                    4       397 308 195 253
                    5       459 263 315 208 276
                    6       238 143 171 164 121 170
                    7       81  40  58  42  38  43  43
                    8       8   2   9   5   8   9   5  7

            Table 2 Friedman's transcription. On the basis of 6195
terms.

To obtain more precision on the terms made up of seven and eight letters
we
synthesize these two tables  in only one and we obtain the following
table:

                Term 1     2    3    4    5    6    7    8
                3   7,14  3,18 5,00
                4   12,00 8,37 5,80 7,57
                5   13,50 7,21 8,78 5,89 7,69
                6   6,79  3,83 4,71 3,76 3,13 4,33
                7   2,21  1,12 1,55 1,33 1,00 0,94 1,10
                8   0,15  0,08 0,28 0,22 0,17 0,19 0,13 0,18

             Table 3 Calculation based on the proportion of terms of
each
                                    transcription.

By considering  the decreasing  order of the  ratios one obtains  the
table
below. It describes the  priorities or the order of the substitution of
the
letters  within  the  terms. The  diversity  obtained  by substituting
the
letters within  the terms creates all  the words of the  dictionary used
to
write the text of the manuscript.

                      Term   1  2  3   4  5  6  7  8
                        3     1  3  2
                        4     1  2  4  3
                        5     1  4  2  5   3
                        6     1  4  2  5   6  3
                        7     1  4  2  3   6  7  5
                        8     6  8  1  2   3  4  7  5

          Table 4 Order of the substitution of the letters within the
terms
                                  of the manuscript.

We  translate   the  table  with  inequalities   to  reveal  the
synthetic
construction of the terms.

                         Term
                           3   >  <
                           4   >  > <
                           5   >  < >  <
                           6   >  < >  >  <
                           7   >  < >  >  >  <
                           8   >  < >  >  <  >  <

                                       Table 5

We read  them this way: For  a word of three  letters the first position
is
more  substituted than  the  second position  >  and the  latter is
less
substituted than the third position ' < '. the structure is as follows:
' >
< '.

Rules
-----

The manuscript  contains terms  with structures which are  well ordered
and
dependent on one another.

>From  Table 4,  one notices  four rules  governing the constitution  of
the
terms   comprising   three,   four,    five,   six   and   seven
letters:

  1. The first letter of a term is the most substituted. It represents
the
     most important manpower of the various positions.

  2. The penultimate position within a term is the least substituted
     position.

  3. The third letter is the second letter which is the most substituted
     when it does not occupy the penultimate position within the term
     (Except for a term made up of eight letters for which we do not
have
     sufficient statistical data to reveal its structure, Cf. Table 1 et
     Table 2).

  4. The last position is systematically more substituted than the
     penultimate letter of the term.

The remarks 1 and 2 lead to the following table:

                                                Term	1	2
3	4	5	6	7
                                                3	1	3
2
                                                4	1	2
4	3
                                                5	1	4
2	5	3
                                                6	1	4
2	5	6	3
                                                7	1	4
2	3	6	7	5

                                       Table 6

          Rule  1  A  term  has  the  first  position  which  is  the
most
          substituted.

          Rule  2  The penultimate  position  within  a term  is the
least
          substituted position.

These  two rules  are impossible  to circumvent  for the construction
of a
term. They have priority over any other rule.

Table  5  shows  us  that the  terms  are  built  with  the  same logic
 of
calculation.

          Rule 3  One passes from a  term of dimension (n)  to a smaller
or
          larger  term  by withdrawing  or  by  adding a  unit  to all
the
          positions [2,n] of the initial term.

Let us detail this operation and apply this methodology.

Application of the rules
------------------------

          Example 1 Research of the structure of a term made up of 5
          letters starting from a term of 6 letters.

Let us start by  writing the order of the substitution of the letters
for a
term   made  up   of   n=6  letters.   The  order   is  written   as
such:

                        1 | n-2| n-4 | n-1 | n | n-3

If one  wishes to know the  order of the substitution  of the letters
for a
term  made up  of  n=5 letters  then  we realize  the following
operation:

                A      1  n-2    n-4     n-1    n    n-3

                B      0  1      1       1      1    1

                A+B    1  n-2+1  n-4+1   n-1+1  n+1  n-3+1

                Result 1  n-1    n-3     n      n+1  n-2

The result  of the operation cannot  be lower than the  unit or higher
than
the  dimension   of  term   (n),  then  the  order   (n+1)  is
impossible.

Thus, there remains the following order:

                          1 | n-1 | n-3 | n | n-2

Which is  the order of the  substitution of a term  made up of five
letters
(n=5):

                             1 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 3

          Example 2 Research of the structure of a term made up of 4
          letters starting from a term comprising 5 letters.

This  operation is  possible  for all  the terms.  But  it is  advisable
to
respect Table 6, Rule  1 and Rule 2. Indeed, when we compute the order
of a
term  comprising four  letters  (n=4) we  come to  a  result false  for
the
suppression  of  an  impossible   order  (n+1)  justifies  the  order
(n).

We draw up the following table:

                   A       1  n-1    n-3     n     n-2

                   B       0  1      1       1     1

                   A+B     1  n-1+1  n-3+1   n+1   n-2+1

                   Result  1  n      n-2     n+1   n-1

If we  do not comply with  the two basic rules  we obtain the false
result:

                     1 | n | n-2 | n-1 = 1 | 4 | 2 | 3

For indeed the construction { 1 | n | n-2 | n+1| n-1 } does not comply
with
the second rule. (n) must be in place of (n+1) and therefore the (n)
cannot
be in a second position. Thus, the construction becomes:

                      1 | n-2 | n| n-1 = 1 | 2 | 4 | 3

          Example 3 Research of the structure of a term made up of 3
          letters starting from a term comprising 4 letters.

We continue  this reasoning by seeking  the structure of a  term made up
of
three letters (n=3).

                      A       1  n-2    n      n-1

                      B       0  1      1      1

                      A+B     1  n-2+1  n+1    n-1+1

                      Result  1  n-1    n+1    n

The case  is identical  to that of the  determination of a term  made up
of
four letters  starting from a term comprising  five letters. We notice
here
that (n+1) is impossible. According to the rule the penultimate position
is
necessarily occupied by (n).  Here, the last position is taken by (n),
this
case is not allowed  thus the construction of the term only can be: 1 |
n |
n-1 which is indeed the order: 1 | 3 | 2.

          Example 4 Explanation of an uncertainty. Research of the
          structure of a term comprising 8 letters starting from a term
          made up of 7 letters.

We  feel however  uncertain  about the  order  of the  substitution of
the
letters in  a term  made up of  eight letters (n=8,  cf. Counts  3). We
are
going to  determine if the fifth position is  indeed smaller than the
sixth
position.

The construction of a term made up of seven letters is: 1 | n-3 | n-5 |
n-2
| n-1 | n  | n-3. To determine the order of a term made up of eight
letters
we withdraw  this time a unit  instead of adding it.  The operation is
thus
made:

            A      1  n-3     n-5    n-2     n-1   n     n-4

            B      0  1       1      1       1     1     1

            A-B    1  n-3-1   n-5-1  n-2-1   n-1-1 n-1   n-4-1

            Result 1  n-4     n-6    n-3     n-2   n-1   n-5

                    1 | n-4 | n-6 | n-3 | n-2 | n-1 |n-5

The (n) does not appear, but according to the rule the penultimate
position
is the  least substituted  position. Thus (n)  is found integrated  in
this
construction:

                  1 | n-4 | n-6 | n-3 | n-2 | n-1 |n | n-5

This sequence  would be the order of the substitution of  a term made up
of
eight letters (n=8).

                        1 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 6 | 7 |8 | 3

Conclusion
----------

The terms  of the Voynich  manuscript are built from  synthetic rules
which
exclude the assumption from  the use of a natural language for its
writing.

However, the  rules which we have put forward could  be the expression
of a
progressive  modification, inspired  from  the discs  of Alberti,  from
the
encryption used by the writer(s) of the manuscript.

But we  must conclude  that currently it  is not possible yet  to know
this
enigma for we have only come to the stage of the research of the
structures
of  terms,  words,  sentences  and  of  texts  of  their  interactions
and
connections. As soon as  we establish the building sets of this
handwritten
text  we will  be  able to  move to  the  following stage  of  research
for
inductive analogy between the internal structures of the manuscript and
the
possible   natural  languages   underlying   with  the   handwritten
text.

Bibliography
------------

[1] Antoine CASANOVA, Ph. D, University PARIS 8 (France), Mthode
danalyse
du  langage crypt : Une  contribution   ltude du manuscrit  de
Voynich,
Paris, 1999.

[2] Captain  Prescott H. CURRIER, Some  Important New Statistical
Findings,
Seminar on 30th November in Washington D.C, 1976.

[3]  John  H.  TILTMAN,   Interim  report  on  the  Voynich  MS :
Personal
communication to W. F. FRIEDMAN, 5 may 1951.

[4]  Umberto ECO, La  ricerca della  lingua perfetta nella  cultura
europa,
Laterza, Roma-Bari, 1994.

[5]  Mary E.  D'Imperio, The  Voynich manuscript  -An elegant  enigma,
Fort
Meade, Maryland, National Security  Agency, Central Security Service,
1978.


--------------7CB197F502615856A30206A8--

