Folder: MAIL/folders-splitted/vm-folders/voynich-97 From VM Wed Feb 24 22:01:23 1999 Message-Id: <342805D8.4622@trl.telstra.com.au> Reply-To: j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:09:28 -0700 From: Jacques Guy <j.guy@trl.telstra.com.au> To: voynich@rand.org Subject: VMS: read on the conlang (CONstructed LANGuages) list Two things. First, this proposal for generating the vocabulary of an artificial language: --- proposal "b" by Rick Morneau --- Word := Root { Suffix } Root := [ C1 V ] ( S V | C C1 V ) Suffix := C C2 V | C2 V ( S V ) {} enclosed item may appear zero or more times [] enclosed item MUST appear one or more times () enclosed item is optional | logical "or" C = any consonant (b, c, d, f, g, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, q, s, t, v, x, z) V = any vowel (a, e, i, o, u) S = any semi-vowel (w, y) C1 = any root-marking consonant (h, n, p, d, k, j, s, v, q) C2 = any suffix-marking consonant (l, m, b, t, g, c, z, f, x) [I spare you the rest] Second (from Paul Kenneth Roser <pkroser@CSD.UWM.EDU>): He's not kidding - the dental stop is released into a voiceless loosely fricated bilabial trill. As I understand it this seems to be allophonic with a plain /t/ in Piraha, but phonemic in a neighboring (and soon to be extinct) language Oro Win (and Wari AKA Pacaas Novos, can't recall if it is allophonic or phonemic there though). Ladefoged & Daniel Everett did a write up on it in Language sometime last year. Piraha also has a straightforward voiced bilabial trill that alternates with a voiced bilabial stop, and a complex double flap that alternates with a voiced velar stop. The double flap starts with a lateralized retroflex flap, tongue moves forward, underside hits lower lip (sublingual-labial) & is drawn back into mouth. My vote for the weirdest sound in any living language. ---------------------------------------------------------- What do I want to say? I do not know myself. Evidence that Voynichese could be an artificial language, and counter-evidence that it could be a natural language. Imagine a Piraha-speaking Indian transported to Northern Italy in the 1400's, and recording his language in a distorted Roman alphabet! Piraha, by the way, has only 7 consonants (seven) and three vowels. But it has tones (I don't know how many). Consider how, out of those seven consonants, three have two very different possible pronunciations each: plain sensible t, b, and k, alternating with those utterly insane articulations.