Folder: mail-procmail-2008-11-18/2007-02-20-160800-voynich
From owner-vms-list@voynich.net  Sat Jul 15 09:10:37 2006
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 22:55:03 +1100
To: vms-list@voynich.net
Subject: Re: VMs: Re: VMs: Kircher, Piraha
References: <748.1346-13651-1995257013-1152957364@seznam.cz>
From: "Jacques Guy" <jbmguy@aapt.net.au>
Message-ID: <op.tcqbd1nwtyp5yo@system>
In-Reply-To: <748.1346-13651-1995257013-1152957364@seznam.cz>

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:56:04 +1100, Jakub Jiricek <kachnitata@seznam.cz>  
wrote:

> if the tones are phonemic, what's the problem?

The first problem, if you've been through Everett's published data,
is that the same morpheme often occurs with different tones (there are
only two tones, according to him, and they are pitch tones).

So either he is tone-deaf, or there is tone sandhi. Which he nowhere
mentions.

If there is tone sandhi (a normal state of affairs in tonal languages)
then we should expect the contrast "one, small" vs "two, many, big"
to become neutralized in some environments. In other words, you could
tell the difference between, say, "one snake" (or small snake) and "many
snakes" (or big snake), but not between "one ant-eater" and "many
ant-eaters". Strange.

If there is no tone-sandhi, and if Everett is not tone-deaf, then the
presence of the same morpheme occurring with different tones means
that tone is phonemic for some morphemes and not phonemic for others.
Very strange.

Further, the analogy thick/thin is not correct.

With thick and thin the final differs by two phonemic features:
voiceless vs voiced, and velar vs nasal. Actually, three: voiceless
vs voiced, velar vs alveolar, oral vs nasal. Hoi and hoí differ
by only one feature: the tone of the final vowel. Like thig/thick, or
thin/thim differ by only one feature: voiced/unvoiced for thig/thick,
alveolar/labial for thin/thim.

You'll answer back with Chinese "mâi" (third tone) "to buy"
vs "mài" (fourth tone) "to sell". To which I'll answer that the
two are variants of "to barter" (and in fact, in many languages the
word for "buy" is the same as "sell").

But "one or small" vs "two or many or big"?

And how about piranhas and anacondas? Piranhas are generally much, much
smaller than anacondas. Hoi piranha is either "small piranha" or
"one piranha", and hoí piranha "several piranhas" or "big piranha(s)".
I would expect "anaconda" to occur only in the "hoí number" (big, many),
the quantity of meat in an anaconda being a thousand times a piranha.
If it occurs in the "hoi number" (one, small), then the Piraha are
aware of relative size. And yet they do not distinguish size from number?

The matter is nowhere discussed in Everett's published material.

When someone makes fantastic claims, and Everett does, the onus of the
proof is on him.