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421  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2014, 07:33:37 AM
Hm, price fell a bit again.  What happened? Did someone offend an old prof?  I told you that the Bitcoin Goddess does not like that...
Its up $30. There is not price fall  Wink
It fell 7-10$ on Bitstamp, BTC-e, Bitfinex 15 minutes ago.
Yeah after rising $30.  You bears are ridiculous
The rise was from 600$ at 05:43 UTC to 630$ at 07:00.  Then it dropped 10$ in the next 10 minutes. Whatever displeased the Goddess must have happened not long before 07:00. 
422  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2014, 07:18:41 AM
Hm, price fell a bit again.  What happened? Did someone offend an old prof?  I told you that the Bitcoin Goddess does not like that...
Its up $30. There is not price fall  Wink
It fell 7-10$ on Bitstamp, BTC-e, Bitfinex 15 minutes ago.
423  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2014, 07:11:54 AM
Hm, price fell a bit again.  What happened? Did someone offend an old prof?  I told you that the Bitcoin Goddess does not like that...
424  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2014, 07:07:58 AM
Why are you so obsessed with the Chinese having to lead the exchanges? Its clear that stamp/finex led this based on how much they moved up (15-20 $) while huobi went up around $10.
* Huobi and OKCoin jumped from nothing at 05:43 UTC, Bitfinex only at 05:44, BTC-e maybe at 05:47.  So Bitfinex and BTC-e can be eliminated. 

* At Bitstamp there was a trade of ~400 BTC at 04:43 but it did not have immediate effect; the price started rising over the next 3 minutes with very little volume; whereas at Huobi and OKCoin trade stayed very high after it started.

* The the initial rise at Bitstamp from 600$ overshoot but quickly fell back, stabilizing at 613$ (13$ increase), while at Huobi and OKCoin the rise was ~70 yuan which is a bit more than 10$.  The difference of 3$ can be explained by "hysteresis", since the real spread at Bitstamp is usually larger than that.

The volume can easily be explained by the fact that the chinese exchanges have no trading fees. As an example some Chinese traders may be selling during the rally to buy back a few minutes later at a little lower price, which isn't as easy if there are trading fees that will cut into profit.
That may indeed happen, but it does not explain why they kept trading vigorously while the price was nearly stable, varying by only 2-3 yuan in each minute.  Why wasn't this volume an hour ago, when price was varying by the same amount?

In contrast Bitstamp has been nearly dead for most of the time.  Obviously it is not the Bitstamp traders who are moving the market.
425  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2014, 06:34:29 AM
Perhaps some Chinese investor tweeted to his Chinese followers that he grabbed some lots at the USMS auction for 620 USD/BTC.
426  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2014, 06:26:50 AM
On Bitstamp, BTC-e, and Bitfinex, there was a surge in volume (peaking at 300-700 BTC/min) while the price was shooting up, but when the rally stalled then volume dropped again to the very low levels it had before (10-30 BTC/min).

On Huobi and OKCoin, volume surged to about the same levels (~600 BTC/min) during the rally, but then it remained high (~120 BTC/min) while the price wandered between ~3800 and ~3820.

Need I say that I see that as evidence that the rally happened in China, and the trades in the West were mainly arbitrage?
427  Economy / Economics / Re: How profitable are exchanges? on: June 30, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
IMO people would still utilize an exchange if it was well known that it was doing unethical things that didn't put their money in question nor were illegal.
That is why there are so many scams in bitcoinland...  Most bitcoiners aparently expect from exchanges and bitcoin ventures only the same level of business ethics that they expect from a drugs dealer...  Tongue

But an exchange that does unethical things will of course "put the clients' money in question", at the very least by spoiling their "luck" at trades.

An exchange that uses a dirty trick against some other client may next use a different dirty trick on you.  That is why one should not tolerate ANY unethical behavior from  them, against ANYONE.  If clients don't mind other clients being scammed, the exchange will have no reason not to scam them, one by one.

Yes an exchange does know their customer's orders before they do, and they also know when there will be large buy orders in the near future (when they receive fiat deposits people who make the deposits will generally buy bitcoin). For all customers the time that they have to front run their customers would be seconds at best.
That is plenty of time to take advantage of the clients, big or small, even without any fancy psychological heuristics.

Say for example that the current spread is 600$ -- 610$.  At 10:45:00 Alice places a buy order for 10 BTC at 605$.  At 10:45:03, before Alice's bid gets posted to the world, Bob places a sell order for 10 BTC at 600$.   Carl, the exchange owner, then inserts between the two orders his own sell order for 10 BTC at 605$, and his own buy order for 10 BTC at 601$.  Only then he posts the trades to the world, namely

  10:45:01 sell 10 BTC at 605$
  10:45:03 sell 10 BTC at 601$

The first trasaction being from Carl to Alice, the second one from Bob to Carl.  Both Alice and Bob will be happy with the liquidity and the result, but Bob will get only 6010$ for his coins.  Whereas in a honest exchange the only transaction would be

  10:45:03 sell 10 BTC at 605$

from Bob to Alice. In this case Bob would get 6050 for the coins.  The 40$ that Bob failed to earn in the first case are pocketed by Carl.

Certainly many other such tricks are possible, e.g. when a client places a single buy order to scoop up N sell orders at different prices, Carl can run ahead and buy the N-1 lowest sells, then place a single sell order just below the last one.  Or whatever.

A businessman would not do it because it would be unethical. Even if there is no way for the public to audit certain things, there is also the risk that someone would leak certain information. Most employers tell their employees to act in a way so that they would not be ashamed if what they did appeared on the front page of the newspaper.
That does not seem to bother the typical bitcoin scammer.  I don't know if Danny Brewster got front page coverage anywhere, even in Cyprus; and he obviously did not get much worried about it.  The dozens (hundreds by now?) of lesser bitcoin scammers got no coverage even in the "bitcoin media".

What would prevent the "friends of the house" from creating multiple accounts and only using each account for one trade? I would think it would be the expected behavior for most accounts to only have one buy or one sell transaction then become dormant as people would cash out of their bitcoin or buy bitcoin as an investment in one lump sum. 
As I said, one would still require a trusted audit to certify that clients are real and that each client got a single client code.  The dirty tricks that I imagine are happening would be thousands of small "thefts of good luck" per day, as illustrated above, that could not be masked by using a few friendly clients in place of Carl.
428  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin will plummet to $10 by first half of 2014 on: June 30, 2014, 03:26:50 AM
This article contains some fresh quotes from the good professor.
https://news.vice.com/article/silk-road-bitcoin-auction-opened-by-us-marshals-service
It also has a quote by the Citibank analyst that seems rather naive.  No one here expects the 30'000 coins to be dumped on the market in a short time, right?

And the prof seems to assume that the auction price will be known right after the closing, but the USMS documents say that someone will have to submit a FOIA to get that information.  (Statements by participants cannot be trusted, they will care much about the effect on price.)

And the prof also claims that the USMS wants to auction the coins before they lose value, whereas I do not see any haste (the auction was authorized quite a while ago) and do not believe they would have that motivation (the USMS has no mandate or obligation to schedule auctions for maximum profit, all it cares is to have a fair auction with enough bidders).
429  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: June 30, 2014, 03:12:50 AM
I have never met a "high functioning" stoner but what is your experience?

I've met dozens honestly; are you sure you've not met one and just didn't know?

Don't you think all stoners are "HIGH functioning"? Smiley

Well yeah and is there not a good reason for that?
Am I the only one here who does not know what "420" mean, other than it is related to drugs and is not a collection of 10 different answers to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything?
430  Economy / Economics / Re: How profitable are exchanges? on: June 30, 2014, 03:02:38 AM
The intended purpose of the unique client code idea was not to prevent criminal use of bitcoins by clients,  but to prevent certain unethical behavior by the exchange, possibly with complicity of some privileged clients.  (Of course it woudl only work  if the uiqueness of the codes was certified by independent, reputable auditors.)
This is not something that even our stock market in the US has. In general most people (IMO) trust stock market exchanges and have confidence in the market.
That is because stock exchanges are strictly regulated and audited by the SEC, and many unethical tricks are crimes with stiff sentences.   I was assuming that bitcoin exchanges would remain free from such regulations for a while still.  If they are to be regulated the same way as stock exchanges, then the UCCs may add little to public confidence (but would still be very useful for market analysis).

What kind of behavior by exchanges do you think this would stop/allow to be discovered? If you are talking about an exchange trading for it's own account, then there is really nothing wrong with this as long as they are using their own money.
That is actually very wrong.  The exchange knows the client orders before other clients, so it can scoop up good trades that otherwise would have been exploited by them.  (I believe this is what is called front-running, yes?).  Any money that the exchange makes this way comes from the pockets of their clients, but they would not notice it -- they would just have less luck than they would in an honest exchange, and as a whole they would lose more money than just the trading fees.

I suspect that all exchanges are doing this (and/or other dirty tricks). If something is not illegal, cannot be detected, and is extremely profitable, why would a businessman not do it?

A standard audit of the books and accounts would not detect this.  But with certfied UCCs in the logs, people will notice that one client (or a few "friends of the house") will have extra luck and will always seem to know juicy orders beforehand.
431  Economy / Economics / Re: How profitable are exchanges? on: June 30, 2014, 01:32:12 AM
Exchanges with and without unique client codes could coexist, so that clients could choose.   That is something that the market (or should it be the meta-market?  Cheesy) seems capable of deciding.
this would defeat the purpose of having client codes as it was said previously that they would be installed to make sure no one is doing anything nefarious and a criminal could simply use an exchange that does not use these client codes
The intended purpose of the unique client code idea was not to prevent criminal use of bitcoins by clients,  but to prevent certain unethical behavior by the exchange, possibly with complicity of some privileged clients.  (Of course it woudl only work  if the uiqueness of the codes was certified by independent, reputable auditors.)

Unique client codes would  also immensely improve our knowledge of the market.  For instance we could tell how many coins have been bought for each given price and not sold yet; that would provide an estimate of long-range liquidity that may be much more rreliable than the order book.  We could tell whether the market is concentrating or distributing bitcoin ownership.  How many active traders there are in each exchange.  And much more.
432  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: June 30, 2014, 12:12:10 AM
Someone wrote a song called "Love Stinks!" and I think it is true, how about you?
Wasn't there a movie where the girl said "Love is never having to say you're sorry or to delete your posts"?
433  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: June 29, 2014, 11:22:08 PM
[...]
Why do threads always turn a bit ugly?
That or just plain old boredom, eh?
Is there also in Dutch a saying like "an idle mind is the workshop of the Devil"?
434  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 29, 2014, 10:50:21 PM
And the Finex is off  Smiley
Since everybody has me on ignore by now, no one will mind me observing that the price on OKCoin and Huobi started to rise several minutes before that big buy at Bitfinex.  Thus that buy may be just an arbitrage trade, delayed by the trading fees at Bitfinex and perhaps by residual price mismatch.

That rise in the Chinese exchanges was almost predictable: now is 6:40 am in China, about the time when the first traders "wake up".  I have not checked statistically, but somehow I got the impression that the early-risers tend to be more bullish than average.  So the Chinese day tends to begin with a price rise, that may be reversed later.  But, again, this is only an impression.
435  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: June 29, 2014, 10:39:01 PM
Why do threads always turn a bit ugly?
Isn't it likely that that is merely a reflection of its participants?
Could it be just frustration with a BTC price that doesn't seem to know where it wants to go?
436  Economy / Services / Re: New 400 BTC Bounty Pales Roger Ver's 37.6 BTC Bounty for Return of Stolen BTC on: June 29, 2014, 10:35:05 PM
FYI, I've published the result of my "investigation" in the french forum.
[...]Activity of the cold wallet during December 2012 shows that no coin was sent to the cold wallet between 12/08 and 12/26. In fact, during this timespan, the flow was reversed (5,500btc sent from the cold wallet to the hot wallet) surely indicating a period with more withdrawals than deposits. This period also corresponds to the period indicated by PG for his initial deposit and his splitting operation. Thus, it doesn't seem unlikely that the funds deposited by PG may have been consumed during this period and can't be found by the recursive script.

This hypothesis would explain why the IW team was unable to find transactions and addresses matching information given by PG.
Indeed.  This finding seems to render the IW team analysis of the blockchain irrelevant.  They looked in the wrong place, so no wonder they did not find anything.  

Assuming that BK was unaware of the flow between the hot and cold wallets, this finding also restores the credibility to his claim.  Back to square zero?

However, wouldn't the hot wallet be caught by the recursive script during its first pass?

WRT missing urls, one of my hypotheses is that IW db may have been altered by hackers to hide that some funds had been stolen (wallets deleted from db).
I don't know how  InstaWallet worked.  Is it possible that BK was the victim of a phishing-style attack?  Say, he was led to a fake IW site, or the real IW server was hacked to divert some client deposits to an address that did not belong to InstaWallet, and omit those accesses from the database?
437  Economy / Services / Re: New 400 BTC Bounty Pales Roger Ver's 37.6 BTC Bounty for Return of Stolen BTC on: June 29, 2014, 10:17:25 PM
Oh. That's kind of scary actually considering the amount of posts he makes targeting people while at the same time posting his home address. I bet he's fine, but he does go out of his way to invite trouble. I hope nothing has happened to him.
Indeed, considering the number of people he has fished embarassing things about, including people with means (and history) of suing people, it is highly likely that he got at least a letter from a lawyer threatening a lawsuit.

Or he simply may have given up hope of recovering his lost bitcoins, and got fed up with a community that, by and large, is indifferent to crime.  When they do not side with the criminals against ther victims.
438  Economy / Economics / Re: Would u pay in bitcoin? on: June 29, 2014, 08:47:42 PM
Ok, ok, but how does the customer send the money to Coinbase?
They can use their bank account, one that does not carry any fees.
And why can't they use such an account to pay the merchant?

What does Coinbase do to avoid fees on dollar deposits, that merchants cannot do?

Or are you considering international purchases?  In that case going through bitcoin could save money over paying directly with dollars; but bitcoin-based payment processors do not yet reach overseas, do they?  (And for most overseas purchases, transportation and customs taxes will dwarf the credit card fees.)
439  Economy / Economics / Re: How profitable are exchanges? on: June 29, 2014, 08:33:15 PM
One thing that would improve transparency a lot would be to attach a scrambled client ID to each bid/ask submission, and the two IDs to each trade
This would get a lot of people to stay away from exchanges, at least people who plan on buying/selling large amounts. If it was clear that scrambled id "1234" was buying large amount of bitcoin then other traders could also buy expecting the large buyer to further drive up the price. The result would be that this large trader essentially pays a higher price then if several small traders bought the same amount at the same time
Yes, many traders would not like even that limited increment in transparency. But others may like it, if it makes them feel more confident about the exchange.  Exchanges with and without unique client codes could coexist, so that clients could choose.   That is something that the market (or should it be the meta-market?  Cheesy) seems capable of deciding.

But I don't think that they would be necessarily inconvenient, even for big traders.   In your example, other traders would not know whether the buying whale has a preset max price, or how much he intends to buy; or whether the small traders will keep on buying too.  And such a buying whale would be sharing the market with many other traders -- including big selling whales, for which the same reasoning would lead to the opposite effect.

Moreover, it is a zero-sum game (in the short run at least), so any change in the rules will have no net effect on profits when averaged over all traders.  To evaluate such a change one must use other criteria, e.g. whether it seems more "fair" to traders and thus avoids them blaming the exchange for heir bad luck.
440  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: US Marshall's Bitcoin Auction Results on: June 29, 2014, 08:13:12 PM
Here's some terrible math.  42 bidders x $25,000 minimum = $1,050,000 / 48,013 coins bid =  $21.87 per BTC.  Let's hope not.
Smiley
Interesting, but that is only the minimum of course.  Many bidders probably entered with much more than 25'000$, offering higher prices.  Reversing the math, if the bids for the ~30 kBTC that SM submitted to the USMS were near market price, and every one of the 42 syndicate bidders managed to get a slice in those bids, they must have pledged about 18 M$ in all, or ~430'000$ each, on average.

It occurred to me now that 25'000$ is also the minimum that one can invest in the SMBIT fund.  Has anyone seen the actual terms of the SM syndicate?  Could it be that the winning bidders will get SMBIT shares, instead of the actual bitcoins?
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