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1101  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 29, 2014, 05:13:22 PM

Look closely, that's a fake beartrap. Made in China?  Grin
1102  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 29, 2014, 05:06:15 PM
It should be noted also that no one should expect a balanced view of the market/Bitcoin from people who define their identity on Bitcoin being a failure either. Someone who claims they have no stake in the game, and is skeptical of Bitcoin (to the point of having it included in every post) should be viewed in the same light you are projecting on the these "salesmen". That is all.

Touché.  However, the stakes are very different...

Draper invested 18 M$ to buy the 30'000 BTC at 600$/BTC or so.  On paper, he lost at least 4 M$ so far.  SMBIT may have sold almost 100 M$ in shares (at the then-current price) and therefore earned at least 2 M$ in fees, but has sold very little for the last 6 months.  For them (and other bitcoin investors and entrepreneurs), convincing people that bitcoin will go to the moon means millions of dollars.  They  will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in BloombergTV and advertorials in Forbes to push that view.

On the other hand, skeptics like me, Krugman, "Prof Bitcorn", and millions others out there will not earn or lose a dime, whetever happens to bitcoin.  (Actually, IIRC, Prof Bitcorn said that he does own some BTC.)  We will only have to deal with bruised egos (but economists like Krugman and Bitcorn are quite used to being wrong).  Apart from that, skeptics have no reason to try to influence the price; and they will not spend even 10$ to have their opinion published.

By the way, while I belive that bitcoin will not survive in the long term, I would not risk any prediction for the price in middle term.  It may even go back to the 1000$ range or more, who knows.  All I will risk saying is that, unless and until a large new market opens, the price will probably keep falling towards the pre-bubble level of ~120$ (or even ~20$, if the Feb/2013 bubble too was made in China).
1103  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 29, 2014, 03:05:34 PM
I believe that last point is a bit much, and merely seems to be playing into concepts that BTC is a ponzi scheme, which you should realize by now that it is NOT a ponzi scheme, even though you want to continue to project theories and to see data that are in support of those kinds of ideas and the spreading of those kinds of frameworks.

Once again, YOU are saying "BTC is a ponzi scheme", not me. 

Those entrepreneurs obviously have substantial interest in making people believe that bitcoin has a bright future and is going "to the moon" any time now.   They are selling their funds, services, and bitcoins; and no one expects salesmen to provide unbiased evaluations or sponsor impartial data gathering and publication.  That is all.

1104  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 29, 2014, 02:37:17 PM
There's NOTHING that is really bearish about the data contained in your first two links above, and your last point seems to be near total pie in the sky speculation with NO real world evidence to support the point that you seem to be attempting to outline (as if bitcoin is kind of dying away... hehehehe.. yeah, right...) 

YOU are saying "bitcoin is kind of dying away", not me.

But, indeed, there is NO real world evidence about bitcoin usage.  Those plots do not show such growth, and we have no idea of what that blockchain traffic really is.  That is all of my point.

But, if you care to know, I also believe that the bitcoin entrepreneurs like Andreessen, Sielbert, Draper, Matonis etc. (and the bitcoin "news" sites that they support, like Coindesk) have no interest in such data becoming available, because they know that it would be depressing and bad for their sales.  Just like they want people to believe that China is irrelevant.
1105  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 29, 2014, 02:09:08 PM

Yet the total daily transaction output volume in BTC (minus changebacks) is still ~120 kBTC/day, less than it was in mid-March, late May, and two weeks ago:
https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=7&timespan=&scale=0

And, since the price has been falling, the total volume in USD (minus changebacks) has been stagnating near 50 M$/day since late March, after falling from 80+ M$/day in January
https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?showDataPoints=false&timespan=&show_header=true&daysAverageString=7&scale=0

By the way, those charts do not seem to have been maintained in a long time, and no one is monitoring their "contact us" thread.  I wonder how they identify the "popular addresses".  The growth in the chart posted by @touhonoob could be due to that list becoming outdated, so that new "popular addresses" are increasingly being included in the plot.
1106  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: October 29, 2014, 12:33:25 PM
By using the live net, BFL acquired profit at the expense of customers and through the use of customers hardware. There was a queue with a name and a sequence as to whom would get delivery. The fuzzy logic that none of the machines were customers machines until they were shipped into a box is an IDIOTIC argument. [ ... ] These machines already had owners, therefore any allegations that they weren't expected to be a customers property is a moot point.

Indeed. I don't know about the law, but morally those machines belonged to customers since the moment that they were paid for.

It does not matter that the company still had not decided which machine shoudl go to which customer.   Like cash or corn, mining machines are a commodity.  If a machine turned out to be defective, the company would have been obliged to replace it: because the customer was owed a working machine, not that broken machine.
1107  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: October 29, 2014, 12:20:48 PM
reading this forum it is kinda sad that most of us on here not related or employed by BFL could probably have run this scam a lot better

After successfully running the same scam for several years, buying expensive houses and such, it is not surprising that they got arrogant and careless about it.  

"The engines stopped working ten minutes ago, but the plane is still up in the air.   Time to stop worrying about the ground, obviously we will never hit it."
1108  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 29, 2014, 03:43:54 AM
Fuck chinese scam exchanges. China = cancer of BTC.

China took the price from ~120$ (or, quite likely, from ~14$) to ~1200$.  (And all with fake volume; awesome, no?) But now they are realizing they are not welcome by people in this thread, so they are pulling out.  Please be patient: there are only 230$ (or 335$) still to drop, and after that no one will have to mention them again.
1109  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: October 28, 2014, 03:47:03 PM
So would it be smart to buy a couple of BFL products on the cheap (say 20 or 30 bucks for a single) and take a gamble that they will be required to fully reimburse you for those?  Or will you be required to have an invoice associated with each unit?
Let's see if I understood, you are asking whether it is possible to make some thousand bucks with no sweat, by duping the FTC and taking some of the refund money that was supposed to be used to refund real customers? 
I am not sure you understood, the above stated that there is a possibility of a plan to turn in a unit that was produced by BFL and receive the purchase price for it.  No duping or pulling one over on anyone, that was the plainly stated possible plan.  If they determine that there were X number of units sold and they cost Y amount and that amount is accrued as refunds, then that money will go out for every unit turned in, no one would be shorted in any way.

Hardly any sweat either, it seems like a long shot that the idea would be accepted and you would be taking the risk that it wasn't and being stuck with the units.

Also, anyone with a BFL unit, bought either second hand or through them is a customer of BFL.  They have an obligation, per their terms, for the unit that I own, however I obtained it.

Sorry, the person deserving the refund of 4000$ (say) is the customer who bought for 4000$. If you bought from him for 200$, you deserve to have the 200$ back.  If you paid 200$ and get the 4000$, while he paid 4000$ and gets nothing, something is wrong, dont  you agree?
1110  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process on: October 28, 2014, 03:32:21 PM
Has anyone thought of opening a bounty on Jon Montroll and his buddies?
http://www.bitcoinbountyhunter.com/about.html
There are a lot of bitcoin bounty hunters starting up now...maybe you can get some of them involved
What a splendid idea. He stole our coins. We want justice.

That site is (ostensibly) for gatering information to be provided to law enforcement.  There is no need of that in this case, is there?  The identity of the scammer i known.  Is anyone pressing charges?

(Ver's idea sucks.  Private anonymous rewarding law enforcement agents will surely lead to more corruption and fabrication of evidence. Besides, Ver is hardly the right person to head a law enforcement initiative...)

In case people are thinking of bounties for something more direct than gathering information for law enforcement: that would be a crime, and hunting down those who contract or provide such "services" should have more priority than a mere theft.

1111  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: October 28, 2014, 02:35:16 PM
So would it be smart to buy a couple of BFL products on the cheap (say 20 or 30 bucks for a single) and take a gamble that they will be required to fully reimburse you for those?  Or will you be required to have an invoice associated with each unit?
Let's see if I understood, you are asking whether it is possible to make some thousand bucks with no sweat, by duping the FTC and taking some of the refund money that was supposed to be used to refund real customers? 

1112  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: October 28, 2014, 11:14:09 AM
I found out why they were hired:
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2013/12/11/kc-law-firm-bets-on-the-future-of.html?page=all
They accept bitcoin. Explains a lot doesnt it.

Indeed.  It explains the, let's say, rather original tone of their defense of BFL.  I don't think it will help their clients at all, but it may attract more clients among a certain segment of the bitcoin community, who will think it was genial.

That defense may even have been what prompted the judge's reprimand.  Its language may seem bland by the standards of this forum, but by legal standards it is quite offensive to the receiver and to the FTC.

Speaking of which, the language and "vivid imagery"of many posts here may prevent their use by the FTC, and may turn the investigators away from this thread.  I hope people are not using that style when writing to the receiver or to the FTC.
1113  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 28, 2014, 10:23:03 AM
When FinCEN says that virtual currency payment systems and trading platforms are money transmitters, FinCEN says that virtual currencys are money.

In their "sentences" they say that they are not, but it does not matter.
1114  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: October 28, 2014, 09:43:08 AM
Now that the fun seems to be over, it may be worth reminding the spectators: "don't drink and post".  (I don't know why that came to my mind reading this thread.)
1115  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: October 28, 2014, 05:49:06 AM
HashFast never paid BFL anything, let alone $1M.

The plot, in the manner of soup to which a spoonful of cornstarch is slowly added, thickens.
1116  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 28, 2014, 12:33:20 AM
Anything on requiring auditing yet? We're in-between exchange fuckups at the moment so it would be best to have that in place before the next one happens.
its probably more focused on KYC and AML then actually protecting consumers
Monetas is coding voting pools as fast as humanly possible.  Real-time automatic auditing which both prevents operators from stealing customer deposits and also prevents operators from refusing valid withdrawals.

I would be surprised if FINCEN, SEC, or the like will take the time to develop regulations specific to bitcoin exchanges.  It would be a lot of work for a very small segment of the economy.  (Note that the FINCEN letters quoted above only clarify how the FINCEN thinks that bitcoin exchanges fit into existing regulations.) 

That NY regulator does not seem to be putting much effort into the bitlicense regulations, either.

Anyway, exchanges should post Terms of Service where they promise not to do all the nasty things that exchanges could do to their clients, such as giving non-existing bitcoins or dollars to some clients, trading against their clients, playing with client coins elsewhere, delaying or blocking withdrawals, etc.  Then the law would automatically prohibit those things, just as it enforces any contract.  Moreover, theft and fraud are crimes, irrespective of the method used by the criminal or the nature of the property taken from the victims.

As for auditing: I don't know what is the state of the art now, but the auditing protocols that were proposed earlier this year could be easily circumvented by a malicious exchange.  (The amateur "audits" that some exchanges did after MtGOX were sorry jokes that proved nothing.)   The blockchain and the account database record only part of the real situation of the exchange, so I doubt that fancy protocols could ever replace a true independent audit done in the traditional way.   But even a true audit would have trouble dealing with the bitcoin side of the accounting.

Anyway, the main problem is not what the exchange is doing, but what it can do at any moment without prior warning.  At any moment it could become another SheepMarketplace; and then what?

1117  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 09:06:30 PM
No news can affect the price.

We had big news without any effect on price, while big moves on price without any significative news.

Actually, to a good approximation, news and rumors have effect in price if, and only if, they are relevant to Chinese traders.  Most of the large swings from December to May were clearly due to Chinese news; and none of the news that are relevant only to the "West" (Overstock, Dell, Paypal, BitLicense, etc.) had any significant efect.

Only a couple of large price swings in that interval remain without explanation, and may or may not be due to events outside China.  Ditto for the "pump" episodes from May/20 to Jun/10, and the various "dumps" since then.

1118  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ESHOP launched] Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet on: October 27, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
There are some possible attacks using combinations of malware in the host computer, "human engineering", hidden cameras, theft, replacement of the device, infiltration of Satoshilabs, etc..  Appears to be safe if the latter two are considered unlikely and the device is used strictly according to the instructions.
REALLY?
ho god , i boght trezor to fel safe, not to feel into troubles
holy fk
so i can loose my btc if someone hack the trezor labs?

If someone gets a malicious version of the firmware, signed with the authentication keys held by Satoshilabs managers, it may then convince users to download and install that "firmware update" in their Trezor.  That malicious firmware then could steal the coins, in many ways. As long as Satoshilabs takes good care of those keys, that risk does not exist.

A thief may substitute a malicious fake Trezor for the real one, when the user buys it.  A fake Trezor too could steal the keys in many ways.  As long as Satoshilabs keeps close watch on their shipping dept, and users only buy Trezors directly from them, that risk should be small.

The thief could also convince a user to download and install a non-authenticated version of the firmware.  That would cause the Trezor to wipe its memory clean and display a warning on its window.  The thief then would have to convince the user to ignore that warning, and re-enter the 24 magic words, from which the private blockchain keys are derived.   Users should be wary of re-entering the magic words after such a warning.

(Many years ago some pranksters would dial a random fixed phone number, pretended to be the phone company, and asked the person to drop the set into a bucket of water, "for a test".  Many users did.)
1119  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 05:55:18 PM
Am... at what price mining won't be profitable anymore?   Roll Eyes
for massive industrial sized farms ?  390
Around 350 would be right.  But I think, for the chinese it is around less than 300.

I understand that, whatever the price, the difficulty will adjust so that mining always remains worthwhile for SOME miners.  "Worthwhile" may not not mean "profitable", though; and some miners would have to  switch off. Isn't that so?
1120  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 05:38:23 PM
Don't give me a fish but teach me how to fish

The saying was "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime".  Note the subtle diference -- no "don't" there...

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